balance-feedback-discussion

[tall cypress]

Feedback

[azure turret]

Basically what we’ve been arguing over is his additions to my rework, right?

[tall cypress]

General

[tall cypress]

Yuppy yup

[azure turret]

Yeah just clarifying

[tall cypress]

Valiant you didnt even read it

Xd

[elfin night]

I read it

[tall cypress]

Wow what a fast

[elfin night]

I absolutely did read things that turned me off so much

because this really doesn't do much to address dilo's core issues in its design

[azure turret]

Give the poor guy a break xD

[azure turret]

I recommend reading mine too if you haven’t already, I made sure to include that

[tall cypress]

Where is it

Oh i tought you are valiant

İ am realy dying rn

[azure turret]

Part 1 is in balance feedback and part 2 is in general feedback. You can search for messages made by me if it’s difficult to find

[tall cypress]

Yours Pp look a like tbh

[azure turret]

Yeah we do

I don’t really know what his pfp is but mines a dodo

[tall cypress]

Valiant what did you dislike

Look like a shark

[azure turret]

Well, sharks don’t have skulls

[elfin night]

The problem with dilo currently is that it has no middle ground. It is almost like a carnivore pachy in this regard

Either it steamrolls everyone it comes across as it has the most mind numbing and unfair ability in the entire game under the right conditions

Or it is COMPLETELY worthless at day or when the venom doesn't work

The problem with dilo is that it relies too hard on its rmb spam button, and it needs to have agency on its own, giving it tools to actually work on its own or be encouraged to still fight even after proccing venom rather than merely running away and obliterating someone from the distance. Yeah sure, it needs to interact every minute or so, but that's still a ton of damage you're dealing for free.

Also the speed buff is completely pointless, and ngl nerfing its speed at day alongside its bite kind of leaves it at the mercy of omnis for sure with that abysmal agility. So it's kind of a nerf all around to things that didn't need changes.

I would rather have dilo as a competent daytime creature and give it something more interesting than plain damage in the venom

[azure turret]

I feel the only reason dilo has “the pachy problem” is when its venom doesn’t work, which isn’t the fault of dilos fundamental design, it’s just a technical issue.

[elfin night]

It's just so lame mechanically currently and what you are suggesting is just dooming it at day which really isn't good

[azure turret]

Me or leps?

[elfin night]

leps

[azure turret]

Ah

[elfin night]

didn't read yours

[tall cypress]

İ did small changes on it

[azure turret]

I do agree on that, one of the reasons reducing its stats during day is a bad idea is because the base stats are a core part of important matchups and balancing each of those twice for the same dino is.. unnecessary

In your iteration Omni slams dilo during the day and so does pachy since it’s only a hair faster

[elfin night]

dilo needs a hard rework on its ability

rather than buffing or changing some numbers

it fundamentally is bad

[tall cypress]

Making it only work with per bite

[azure turret]

There

[tall cypress]

500 kg is diabloticial

Omni will able to pin it

Make it 600 and ok

[azure turret]

Omni is 450kg

It wouldn’t be able to

[tall cypress]

Cant paunce that?

O thougt it can paunce 1.1x its weight

[azure turret]

Omni could pin it if two were pouncing, but that’s the way it currently

[tall cypress]

But 3 omni cam paunce an adult dibble

[azure turret]

Nah. Pachy is 500kg and it can’t be pinned

[elfin night]

700kg dilo or I riot

[elfin night]

it gets slowed down massively though

[tall cypress]

Dilo is fine with kilo

650 r 700 ok

[elfin night]

also elder omni

[azure turret]

So does dilo

[azure turret]

Elder dilo.

[tall cypress]

I hate Utah named omni i cant Get use to it

[azure turret]

I prefer it honestly Omni means “all”, the “all” raptor makes sense for a raptor that’s got the design of a fictional animal yet traits of all raptors

It certainly doesn’t look like a Utahraptor

[tall cypress]

Yes but still i play this game since it drops and nah

I cant

I still writing Utah to the chat and New player doesnt get it

It makes feel like a +60 years old

[azure turret]

Lmao

I want to expand upon why I want to remove venom stages from dilo though, and why I don’t think it suits as well as for troodon.
Troodons venom is meant to be most effective in a large, coordinated group. The use of stages forces troodons to work together to keep progressing towards a goal without ruining it for the others by moving out of line. For dilo, the goal is not to be coordinated (obviously it helps but it isn’t as essential as with troodon), it is to use venom to confuse prey which will make openings. I feel that Dilo should inflict the full ambient effects of venom (fog, deafness) at the first bite.

[tall cypress]

First bite is too strong but ideas are ok

[steep gazelle]

@vagrant plover what?

[azure turret]

Keep in mind that the only lethal part of venom is clones, and in my scenario, the only way to get clones is to land bites. So even if you give something venom effects at the first bite, you have to land many more bites if you want to be able to use clones

[near basin]

Lmao this is a monstrosity

[elfin night]

it's way more of a devastating monstrosity to give it 900kg

Quetz really isn't that hard to balance

glass cannons in this game can be very easily balanced

[near basin]

Quetz is seen picking up a galli. How much do you suggest it should weigh?

[elfin night]

See: troodon and herrera

[near basin]

It's going to weigh at the very least double

[elfin night]

300 at most

dont care about it lifting over its own weight

dont care about realism, just that quetz with 300 health is much better than 900

[near basin]

It's simply not going to happen homie

[elfin night]

I would like it to be like omni sized at best

in terms of mass, it's just sensible with its size

Who cares if it ends up lifting more than it weighs? Seriously, why? There's so many things ignoring biomechanics and physics already

[near basin]

Yeah sure that's your anecdotal subjective feeling about what you want it to be

Not a logical assumption on what the devs will make it, taking into account the mechanics of the game

Okay say quetz has 300hp. How long should it take to grow?

[elfin night]

It's not anecdotal because it's not based on the past

and subjective to what extent is debatable, as numbers to balance out a game are objective

[elfin night]

If it's gonna be a flyer and can snatch gallis? I would say a little over 2 hours is good. Around cera time

It's a larger herrera that thrives more in the plains and has its three dimensional movement everywhere in the map

[near basin]

"i think it should be this way" subjective

and the feelings about 300hp that you expressed are opinions you've developed in the past and are now putting in this chat

[elfin night]

so making it take 40 minutes more than a herrera

[near basin]

2 hours 300hp? 5m tall?

[elfin night]

It's a hypothetical as it hasn't occured yet

Also I can argue why quetz with 300kg is fine

[near basin]

2 hours, so around 1 hour with an averagely good diet

[elfin night]

As it has many other tools that can make up for a lack of tankiness

[elfin night]

No no noI

I mean +2h on 100% diet

around cera time which is 2h 15m

[near basin]

yeah. so around 1 hour on a good diet

getting above 200% is not hard

especially as a flier

and 300 hp? what?

Your whole opinion here is dependent on them making an exception for quetz and letting it carry more than its own weight

[elfin night]

around 1 hour 300% diet on a carnivore IS hard

[elfin night]

what's the impediment

also, you know what the "balance triangle" is?

[near basin]

staying around 200 with a flier is not hard what so ever. if you say it is, you're convincing me you're new to the game

[elfin night]

Or the balance triad, that's a valid term is

[elfin night]

I am not talking about 200%

I am talking 300%

which would be 1 hour if 100% diet is 2 hours

[near basin]

you said 2h on 100 r

[elfin night]

exactly

....No way...

you got the math wrong

300% diet is twice as fast as 100% faster

100% is 2 times faster, 200% diet is 3 times faster than the base growth, 300% is 4 times faster

[near basin]

no because i never even made a math based argument what

The growth time, along with the weight and what it's supposed to carry makes no sense

[elfin night]

you got the numbers wrong brother

[near basin]

ok where

[elfin night]

if we go from the premise something takes a little over 2h to grow on 100% diet, it literally cannot grow in half of that time on 200% diet

[near basin]

This is equivalent to me sayign you got the torah wrong despite you never formulating an argument based on the torah

show me where i "got the math wrong"

[elfin night]

DUDE 😭

I'm gonna pull the calculator ig because you can't see it

let's assume a creature takes 120 minutes on a 100% diet

that's 240 minutes on 0%

[near basin]

you're avoiding my question lol, and talking to yourself

you're having a discussion like on your own rn

[near basin]

go on

point to the message i posted, i'm sure you can find it somewhere here

[elfin night]

calling 300% diet averagely good is so laughably inaccurate

100% boost splits base growth in 2

200% in 3

[near basin]

show me where i called 300 averagely good

[elfin night]

broski, 1 hour in this premise is 300% diet

[near basin]

i'm waitin

[elfin night]

"1 hour with an averagely good diet" is impossible unless you claim 300% is averagely good

you're a troll, aren't you?

[near basin]

you're claiming i said things that i didn't and call me a troll? Hahaha what is this attempt at ragebait

[elfin night]

you literally took my premise of 2h on 100% diet

meaning that if you claim something below 300% diet will lead you to 1 hour of growth is false

also while we sidetracked, you didn't really explain why it would be wrong to make quetz capable of lifting more weight than its own even though that would prevent quetz from being fast, tanky and good at attack all at a time (you can only have two out of three extremes of the triangle at most)

[near basin]

because you never asked

[elfin night]

#balance-feedback-discussion message except that I have

[near basin]

You stumble to prove you said something I claimed you didn't, but keep lying about me saying things I didn't
That's pathological

[elfin night]

Is he okay, chat?

[near basin]

You've been discussing a problem that wasn't even part of the conversation, I'd like to know if you're okay

[elfin night]

[azure turret]

Why are you acting like this 🤡

Make a point or something

[elfin night]

did I discuss something that wasn't pertinent or is this an attempt at gaslighting?

[azure turret]

Not you..

[elfin night]

I know

[azure turret]

Oh ok

[elfin night]

I am asking you

[near basin]

refer to the message i posted where i allegedly got math wrong

[azure turret]

I seriously don’t know cause it turned from a discussion about Quetz weight to just him trying to make you feel incompetent

[elfin night]

#balance-feedback-discussion message
#balance-feedback-discussion message

[elfin night]

I think he knows he did something wrong

and now is trying to justify it

[azure turret]

Anyways I’m pretty sure you mean it should take 2h to grow Quetz idk why it matters if diet bonuses are involved

Like you said it should take around cera time

[elfin night]

also, we could just ignore all of this and pretend that NOW I am asking (again) why it would be wrong for quetz to lift more than it weighs and thus it doesn't become omnipotent

[azure turret]

That’s all that needs to be known

[near basin]

You said 2h on 100% growth

I said around 1 hour on 200% growth

is that wrong?

[azure turret]

Who cares doesn’t matter ANYWAYS

[elfin night]

IT ABSOLUTELY IS

😭

[near basin]

Calm down

[elfin night]

that's not how % increases work

[azure turret]

I don’t think it’d be realistic for Quetz to lift more than its own weight but I also don’t expect it to need to

[elfin night]

that's what I was saying

[azure turret]

I’m fine with Quetz being a little on the heavier side, max 500kg

[elfin night]

100% faster means twice as fast as the normal pace (0%)

200% is three times faster than the normal pace

300% is four times. And two times two is four

[near basin]

considering the way TI converts real life animals to in-game playables, quetz will likely weigh way more than 500kg

[azure turret]

Atp just ask chat gpt

[elfin night]

not really a solid rule

no reason to make quetz much heavier than a galli. It could just be able to lift it even if it's not realistic

[azure turret]

There’s not too much oversizing in this game tbh. And the ones that are oversized (dibble all I can think of) usually have a good reason

If you ask me I’d say a few things are undersized

[near basin]

No lol, 200% would mean 120m they're just trying to make it more complicated

[elfin night]

120m is TWO HOURS

so 100% boost

[near basin]

it's not that it isn't realistic, idc abt that
it's that it's not what the game is trying to do w its balance

[azure turret]

Maybe just ask a literal calculator and stop arguing

[near basin]

Calm down

[elfin night]

I will ask, do you know what the balance triangle is?

[elfin night]

I literally did above

[near basin]

SSH

[elfin night]

tell me, you know what the three basic stats in basically all free movement character games are?

they are extremely intuitive

It is essential to explain why 250-300kg quetz is acceptable

[azure turret]

Honestly, when it comes to fliers you could make them all weigh nothing and it’s acceptable. You’re invincible in the sky

[elfin night]

it's part of the argument, but first I need acknowledgement

[azure turret]

Yea

[elfin night]

of what that rule I mentioned is

since it applies to every single game like this one where you pick characters with different abilities and stats

[azure turret]

Do you think Omni should pin Quetz?

[near basin]

unless pin is reworked, omni will pin valiant's quetz

[elfin night]

yeah, maybe give quetz some cc move or good retaliation, but I think it definitely should

[near basin]

You think 1 omni should pin quetz?

[elfin night]

respectfully and politely, without a trace of hostility, could you please answer the question above about those three main stats so I can go on

[azure turret]

Ooh a Quetz with cc is interesting. I have an idea for Quetz though, where headshots have a 3x multiplier instead of 1.5x. So if you hit an Omni in the head with a peck it’s most likely dead or near dead. I also think Quetz should be kinda quick on the ground but needs some acceleration time similar to POT hatzegopteryx

[elfin night]

ugh, I will go

Offense, Defense and Movement

that is the triad in all games with characters on a very fundamental level

[azure turret]

“if you can’t fight something, you can escape it”

[near basin]

yeah i already said that homie, again you're making up my actions

[azure turret]

“If you can’t escape something, you can fight it”

[near basin]

strength speed health

[azure turret]

I thought you were telling him to be quiet..

[elfin night]

and as a general rule of thumb that applies to every single game that attempts to be balanced, no character ever takes three.

They either pick two, or they lean very heavily into one of them

[near basin]

no just making it clear how unobservant this anecdotal person is

[elfin night]

I thought you were hushing at me. There wasnt much I could do with 3 letters with no other message attached to them, but alright! you know them

[near basin]

I would never hush at you!

[azure turret]

“Unobservant” when the thing you expect him to observe is hidden inside an abbreviation that sounds like another word when you had the option to just spell it out

[near basin]

Chill

[elfin night]

I literally cannot know, I don't know you. But let's continue

[near basin]

I don't care about the argument you're proposing knitted to SSH

The bottom line is that a 300hp 300kg quetz is not logical in the isle

[azure turret]

Ok! Now we’re getting somewhere. Tell me why

[near basin]

Unless it has a growth time similar to omni's, that's not balanced

[near basin]

I still don't see why you're involving yourself in this when you don't have the context of the history of this conversation

[azure turret]

I think considering that it’s going to be heavily glass-cannon like and probably be able to 3-shot or less something like Omni it should have a longer growth time

[azure turret]

Bold of you to assume I can’t scroll up

[near basin]

Based on your contribution to the discussion, I assume you didn't

[elfin night]

So, everything is either two of them, or rarely they lean very heavily into one.

You know, defense+offense is a brawler, offense+speed is a glass cannon, speed+defense is usually a light tank...And you can in fact see most of these archetypes in The Isle with few exceptions.

Now, notice how NO ONE ever has all three traits. And guess who would break that golden rule by giving it almost 1 ton: quetz

Speed as it is a flyer that is inherently fast, ignores terrain, is stamina efficient and due to its morphology it can be capable in land
Defense as it is given extreme tankiness for its size
Offense as it can take out +400kg creatures with one strike

And furthermore, lack of defense in quetz could be countered by the fact that nothing can touch it in the sky and you cannot really ambush a thing that is 5m tall in the plains

[azure turret]

And based on your contribution to the “discussion” I’d say you’re on the same level of understanding as you were when you started because you chose to sit here and argue about math for half of it in this wonderful world where we have calculators

[elfin night]

it's not logical that a 90kg therizinosaur can swim at 30kph and jump out of the water like a dolphin
it's not logical that a 8 ton crocodile can't just crush the head of a stegosaurus in one bite
it's not logical that a 175kg theropod survives a 30m meter fall without any harm while nuking its opponent
it's not logical that a 450kg raptor can latch onto something's back for minutes

But they all exist in service of balance and game design

and quetz being able to lift more than itself (even though that's just a number in your stat panel) would do no harm and in fact would take quetz out of that weird problematic spot where you seem to have placed it. Since it doesn't need to be 1 ton

[near basin]

I'm going to have to dismiss this entire paragraph as nonsensical babble, as no one (nor I) ever denied any of this

and i also specifically told you that my denying of your proposal (300kg quetz) is due to realism

it's due to how the game works, that 300kg quetz is nonsense (unless short growth)

[azure turret]

So basically replace the word “logical” with “realistic” in what he just said and read again..

[near basin]

2 different words

[elfin night]

nothing in a video game is forcibly logical. How am I supposed to interpret it either.

You can do so much with quetz rather than making it break a basic rule of PvP character/hero shooter game design

[near basin]

you're proposing a quetz should be pinned by an omni

[elfin night]

tell me why a 250-300kg quetz would be wrong

[elfin night]

yeah, what's the problem?

[near basin]

quetz being pinned (better word for oneshot) by an omni?

i don't know, perhaps the fact that it's supposed to "hold its ground" as a terrestrial, according to what devs want it to be

[elfin night]

you can give quetz means to avoid it like very strong frontal retaliation that would kill the omni, or it being capable of ccing the thing by grabbing it if it pounces frontally or just impaling/poking it very hard to sending it flying back

And then, well, you can just fly

[near basin]

i'm arguing off of what the devs likely are going to do with quetz

[azure turret]

Honestly even if it could it’d be hard to get the positioning and if Quetz is given cc it’d be even harder. Most Dinos have long side profiles and a small face-hitting area, but Quetz is just tall and tree-like.

[elfin night]

^

and quetz was meant according to the devs to give more or less the same fear deino does

Meaning that it will likely rely pretty hard on ambushes

what are you doing fighting an omni that already saw you and you didn't get to damage it

because who knows, maybe after one good peck and retaliation, the omni might as well just die in a few seconds

[azure turret]

You could also pick it up and fly away with it (better word for oneshot)

[elfin night]

[elfin night]

unironically trueing

[azure turret]

I think it should be an even match.

Some people don’t think galli should be pinned by Omni

I’m not sure how I feel about it but hey it’s there for perspective

[near basin]

they weigh the same and take close to the same amount of time to grow, ofc it should be pinned

[glossy elbow]

@near basin what does quetz being 800+ kg have anything to do with it picking up galli when they can just make the amount it can pick up higher then 50%?

[elfin night]

he actually said it

what's even the balance logic behind it?

Giving more health to something that already hits hard, can never get caught and is at least the second fastest creature in the game?

[vale brook]

sorry if quetz is below 450kg im throwing my PC out the window

[elfin night]

Sounds so balanced to make quetz capable taking two full charged bites

[vale brook]

#general-feedback message

ive already given my quetz proposal thankfully

[elfin night]

30kph is tragic for quetz

I would honestly make it 300kg or so and maybe a little over 40kph

[vale brook]

if it gets pinned by omni that would be incredibly stupid

[elfin night]

well, skill issue

and as said, it could have tools to avoid it besides weight

[vale brook]

rip quetz if an omni wants the body it has i guess

[glossy elbow]

yeah i mean having a single raptor pin quetz sounds uh not so good imo

[elfin night]

like having crazy good retaliation or some high damage/cc move it can do to parry omni

[vale brook]

retaliation damage is only for some animals that would reasonably be able to do it effectively

[elfin night]

like some big peck just stunning omni as it gets close

[vale brook]

im ngl i dont think a quetz should struggle with a single omni on the ground lol

[elfin night]

or knocking it over

[tropic horizon]

Yeah that omni is getting skewered

[steep gazelle]

Quetzal weighing less than 500kg is a bit rough

At least 700kg

[elfin night]

I think it should be more or less even

If quetz gets ambushed by omni it deserves to die
If omni gets ambushed by quetz it deserves to die
If they see each other on the ground, omni dies if it tries to play offensively and quetz if it tries to go on the offensive

[vale brook]

yeah no

[elfin night]

considering quetz can f around and NEVER find out

can force everyone into a fight but with no commitment as long as it has the stamina and doesnt get burst down in a second

[vale brook]

thats why i stop that from the beginning with my SUPERIOR quetz suggestion

#general-feedback message

[elfin night]

I sure would love quetz to be a Gary Stu playable, having all attack, speed and defense on its side

[vale brook]

yes im going to keep postinf it

[steep gazelle]

Quetzal will be huge, so it shouldn't be that fragile to Pin as it is easily seen

[elfin night]

you can also rework pinning

or make it work differently

such as maybe quetz getting pinned if it is pounced from behind

[steep gazelle]

That too, Pin is pretty Unbalanced at the moment

[elfin night]

and hard code it so adult ones dont get pinned frontally

there's WAY MORE solutions than this weird false dilemma everyone is pushing of making quetz a tanky glass cannon moving at mach 5 or something that gets pinned by fresh adult omnis effortlessly

[steep gazelle]

Seeing the current state of the ptera gives you an idea of the quetzal

[elfin night]

ptera is getting a rework

[tropic horizon]

I quite like this idea, very good

[steep gazelle]

The stam is extremely horrible and the recovery is even worse

[tropic horizon]

Thatd be way more believable than a quetz getting pinned instantly from the front

[steep gazelle]

I know, but I don't think they'll change anything in their stam

[tropic horizon]

And you could and should apply this to more creatures.

[elfin night]

see? there's alternatives besides making quetz capable of withstanding several attacks even though it can afford to never be at risk

[glossy elbow]

what's the absolute biggest playable quetz should punch up to in your opinion? basically how big of a glass cannon should quetz be

[steep gazelle]

I hope the devs and community pay more attention to how horrible Pin is when Allo and Rex are released

[elfin night]

I am sure they will

I hope they give it better RUNNING and swimming stamina. Flight one is goated and honestly we could do with less

Also way better run and trot

imo ptera should be about as fast as pachy in land

[tropic horizon]

I think paired with this you could give quetz very fast alt attacks with potential cc, I don’t see why the giant spear on a large neck shouldn’t be capable of snapping onto targets quickly. Maybe you could balance it out by giving it a longer cooldown in between alts but having the alts be very fast and punishing to be hit by.

[elfin night]

I think it's fair to see it could be taking on stuff like pachies or even at most dilos in the open if the quetz is good, or maybe sub dibbles with very good land movement and poking

[elfin night]

exactly

[steep gazelle]

That would be nice. Ptera has to have much better stam and stam recovery than the current state

[elfin night]

give it some potent cc alt and there you go, it can play defensively vs omnis now on land

[steep gazelle]

Adding some mechanics would also be great, like making it possible for him to dive and fly back up straight from the water without having to go to land.

[elfin night]

I think it could perfectly work that way: 300kg quetz lands and sees omni, omni approaches and quetz will destroy it if it plays defensively and keeping its face all the time like that, obliterating the omni if it gets in pecking range or it gets parried mid air by an alt attack

but then if quetz tries to play aggressive in land and try to use an alt, a good omni can outmaneuver it to pin from behind

[elfin night]

it's getting new ground fishing

we know for a fact devs are giving ptera new flight, new fishing, new attacks and also more effective land movement

we are getting another playable basically from what it seems

[steep gazelle]

Ptera was nothing more than a stam recovery simulator current, Changing this is good

[glossy elbow]

how about and here me out. 400kg quetz just a bit bigger but it stays a glass cannon and can still get pinned by omni if the quetz isn't careful

[golden coral]

Could maybe do the galli exception for pin, but higher instead of lower, so one omni can't pin a quetz, even if it is within weight range

[glossy elbow]

that could possibly work yeah

[grand walrus]

Hell no cause dryo looks like a small Dino this one looks like a bigger Dino

[viscid mica]

They aren’t

Ovi are smol

They are egg thief’s

[grand walrus]

There are bigger breeds out there

I seen eggs the size of a watermelon

[viscid mica]

Have you seen ovi concept art?

They are tiny

I’ll go get it

Here is Ovi and Kentro concept art

As you can see Ovi is tiny

[vale brook]

imagine getting kicked by an oviraptor

common troodon L

[dusky surge]

i'd lower the weight, heighten the ground speed, and it'd be perfect

600kg is a tungsten bird and is just WEIRD, especially in a game that accurately scales its animals to its weight (it doesn't give them accurate sizes, but the weights line up VERY well with the models)

[hasty coyote]

Even minmi beats ovi

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/deep-magic-lion-witch-narnia-dont-recite-gif-14879671

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

firstly, thanks for the tag :)

secondly, everything here looks fine 👌🏻 id change 3x to 2x, but 3 could work too in theory

[thorn mountain]

@random stump I dont think you remember that if they add allo, allo wont have anything to fear

so then the cera problem will just move to allo

and cera will stay op

allo wont fix anything if anything it will make things worse

[azure turret]

Ofc! I really like your idea

[haughty grotto]

@azure turret there's so many things wrong with this
Sooo many things, I don't even know where to begin

But I'll start by saying: grabbing something at high speed while flying with a narrow beak and slender weak neck will kill the quetz.
Quetz can barely support its own weight in flight. Even 500kg is generous for its own weight. But sure I'll dig into your fantasy and assume that quetz is around 600-700kg (MASSIVE overestimation). And you want it to CARRY 700?
1.3ton cera/carno can't even carry an omni.
I would be shocked if quetz could grab more than 150-200kg

Idk what kind of mythical monster you think quetz is.
A modern day tiger would probably be able to pin and murder one

[rapid flume]

concept art had it grabbing a galli

[slate stone]

Was it actually picking it up and flying away with it?

[rapid flume]

yes

[slate stone]

Ok, thanks

The Galli it picks up looks like it’s smaller than the other two, so it might not be full grown?

[steep gazelle]

It's the angle. One is tilted with his head up and the other to the side

[slate stone]

Ok, that makes sense

[azure turret]

Sure, and plummeting from 30 meters would shatter the bones of a Herrerasaurus. It isn’t exactly meant to be as realistic or logical as possible, just balanced and interesting. I’d also be happy with 300-500kg Quetz, but I definitely beleive it should balance wise be able to pick up dilo

[keen plover]

realism takes for the isle...

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

this is such a flawed solution to this problem

rather than fix the evidently OP animal, that is already powerful AGAINST animals of allo's size class, add allo, and make it on par with cerato, meaning now we have two obnoxiously OP carnivores

[vale brook]

i'm so confused why you consistently bring up realism when it comes to quetz size when we have a 3 ton diablo lol

"id be surprised if quetz can grab more than 200kg"

deino can grab half its weight, so its not like dinosaurs are limited to only grabbing small stuff (especially when the grab doesnt instantly kill you)

[dusky surge]

idk why this argument also applies ONLY to quetz

like everyone else? fine

quetz picking up a galli? apparently unfine

[vale brook]

people scared of big bird in sky

[keen plover]

The way deino holds things in this game...

[vale brook]

its cringe but its how i expect quetz grab to work

lets be realistic here in terms of what we should expect lol

unless deino lunge gets reworked in the deino kit adjustment

in which case id expect it to get that grab (if its not exclusively designed and created for deino)

((and also, i think cerato/carno should be able to carry a singular omni, albeit with a far slower sprint))

as in the omnis body

which is also what im expecting from quetz anyway.

grab
take off
fly upwards for extreme stamina cost at a somewhat reduced speed (with a 'struggle' animation or something close where its obvious the quetz is struggling to get it in the air)
drop
food!

[keen plover]

I hope quetz can grab you from the air and from the ground

[vale brook]

i think a grab from the air should have a reduction in what you can grab

ground grab for things larger than gallis, flying grab for things galli sized and smaller

[keen plover]

sounds cool

[crimson crater]

omni is tiny in visual comparison so it would look believable, also realism arguments in big 25 lmao

[elfin night]

@random stump we know for a fact allo is coming along very soon, and rex even earlier

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message people who think allo will fix cerato situation are… very wrong

[unreal crystal]

Herbivore mains think cera should be reworked/nerfed so he is just a carno without ram and 40kmph speed.

[elfin night]

https://tenor.com/view/under-new-management-more-like-under-new-management-megamind-megamind-meme-jokez_da_joke-gif-19867663

literally what will happen

[worthy steeple]

LMAO YES

[dusky surge]

what?

no one has advocated for cera to be like carno, the point is that they are beyond different lmao

[elfin night]

What are you talking about, bro?

[azure turret]

Oh my god.. it’s tragic

[unreal crystal]

I think its unfortunate people think cera in OP because they play on g@rbage no rules/no population control servers, gastro bs etcetc

I never die to cera when I play carnivore it's just impossible and besides trike stego and dib all herbivores are faster than cera

[elfin night]

Cera is laughably overpowered bro

[unreal crystal]

How on earth are ppl struggling with cera idek

So how do you balance cera ? What's your idea?

You can't give cera speed bc that's carno ... the least cera should be able to do is be strong in defending itslef

[golden coral]

Shouldn't we base things on the official servers?

[unreal crystal]

I guarantee most ppl who die to cera is because they decide to fight it

[potent fox]

I personally just dislike that fighting them always feels miserable even if you win

[golden coral]

Isn't that kind of the point though, that you shouldn't want to fight a cera at all, just let it have what it wants

[unreal crystal]

Yes agree when you have a group of 20 anything taking over Hotspots is not fun but that's why I play unofficials with rules to prevent this

[golden coral]

But going "You're playing on the wrong server" when we're on officials, seems like a very strange argument. Cera shouldn't need rules, or population limits, or change in mutations or otherwise to be fine in the game

[potent fox]

For sure but it kinda goes against everything it is rn. The most popular land carni shouldn’t be something everyone has to constantly avoid

[golden coral]

Fair, question is how to make it easier to avoid perhaps, or well, so it's less "must avoid" and more of a cera not wanting to fight either, preferring if you go away without having to engage

[elfin night]

EXACTLY

Ofc it’s fair for a carno or omni to die to a cera if it tries to fight it. The problem is that cera right now is the easiest carnivore to grow while also being the strongest, having zero limitations for its ability that allows it to hit much harder than any of dibble’s or teno’s attacks with no stam costs and in fact it got buffed in hordetest, bacteria being used as an offensive weapon rather than a deterrent, gastro heal synergies, the fact that charged bite is affected by damage mutations, goated bleed resistance especially in HT with that literal 99%…

And if all of that somehow doesn’t work, it can run into the water where no one other than maia with weak ass headbutts, deino, and beipi can catch it.

May I continue?

cera is just a tyrant you cannot do anything about and it is everywhere. It’s currently an apex and on top of that the easiest carnivore to grow and keep an excellent diet with

[elfin night]

And things are not balanced around unofficial rules

There shouldn’t be rule barriers for in game problems

[hasty coyote]

Maia’s water speed got nerfed bad, but teno has the same speed in the water (still can only peck tho)

[elfin night]

No one wants to deal with the tyrannical group of 6 ceras destroying everything in lane other than good fg stegos

[potent fox]

Not even that even a normal amount is frustrating af to fight. I’m probably bias bc I tend to play Maia (if I can I run ofc but if they are smart they can always track you down) and fighting them even when the numbers are looking good for me sucks bc the vomit animation just cancels all your attacks and with a slow herbi that can only get a hit out every few secs it feels like perma stun lock especially bc you can’t even switch stance or anything like that

Wow I’m yapping

[unreal crystal]

I literally never struggle against cera.... if I play carno and it's a 1v1 I can test out to see how good he is and decide if I take the fight or not.... same if I play teno.... Cera will never have the option to run from these things so it doesn't make any sense when I see ppl suggesting cera should be nerfed... absolutely not

[elfin night]

It makes sense when everyone is oppressed by it, dibbles included

I told you above

[potent fox]

Tldr: the vomit is super frustrating not only bc you lose resources and for Maia that’s a 5–10 min timer to dehydration but bc it makes combat unplayable sometimes

[golden coral]

Cera can also use alt in water, can't it, so even if something could catch it, it can fight back better than most

[elfin night]

No one wants to put up with the bs of a megapack of 5-7 ceras forming in one hour and a half and rampaging everything

[unreal crystal]

How on earth is cera oppressing dib is this a joke?

[elfin night]

And even when everything goes wrong it just runs into the water where it is uncontested

[elfin night]

One on one a decent dibble can pull it off. But if multiple ceras see you, you’re just dead unless you back off against a wall broski

You get vomit locked and obliterated by 400 damage bites

Listen, @unreal crystal @unreal crystal @unreal crystal name ONE WEAKNESS cera has in its kit

[haughty grotto]

@azure turret it's not realism, it's about being grounded to some fundamental level of physics. For example a dilo cannot fly.
The isle has always remained somewhat plausible. It is not completely nonsensical in its physics.

@vale brook there's a difference in stats adjustment and complete disassociation. Hiking quetz up to 700kg is already way more of an increase than dibble being 3tons.
@dusky surge it does not only apply to quetz. Literally no dino in the small-mid range like cera or carno can pick up omni/galli/dilo. I doubt a subadult allo in the almost 2T range would be able to pick them even. And those dinos are way stronger and more muscular than the lightweight quetz.

You're really bringing deino into the picture? An 8 ton dino that's built for literally one thing: bite, grip, pure strength. Quetz is the exact opposite. Narrow beak, slender neck, minimal grip.

The discord wants quetz to be a flying mythical monster way beyond what it actually is. In your hype, you turn it into a creature that completely defies everything we know about physics. There's one thing to partially bend the rules of realism, it's another to completely forget physics exists.

Also @rapid flume a concept art is a concept art, nothing more. Aside from the fact that the galli being picked up is small, not all concept arts and up being implemented the way you think they would be.

[unreal crystal]

I'm bellow average in terms of dibble but I guarantee not even the best cera player can do anything against my dib lol

[unreal crystal]

OK.. speed... there you go

[hasty coyote]

Imo, the issue is not with cera’s defensive strength, the issue is with its offensive strength. Any nerfs have to be very careful about that distinction (which is why the recent nerfs came with compensation buffs). They just need to nerf its ability to chase and nerf vomit’s offensive capabilities.

[potent fox]

Agreed that’s exactly the things I dislike about it

[hasty coyote]

Tbh it speed ain’t bad, and it’s insane stamina makes up for it. My dude is the same speed as teno (technically 0.1kph diff but that’s negligible) but with offensive attacks

[potent fox]

And as soon as it’s more than 1 they can track you forever and force your stam below 60

[elfin night]

Relative to who?

In what matchup does cera severely suffer in terms of speed when things that are significantly faster get nuked down in a second?

[hasty coyote]

Like cera’s weaknesses are incredibly minor at best, compared to every other dino which has an obvious and glaring weakness. It ain’t necessarily a bad thing, but since cera is the largest, strongest, and easiest land predator, it becomes a major issue.

[elfin night]

^

Easiest to grow while also being excellent all around. So balanced and fair

[unreal crystal]

Cera is definitely easy to grow I agree that thing can eat anything but I never see people mentioning a sub cera can't do anything against a fg carno/teno once spotted whilst the other 2 can literally run away from a fg cera... thats surely a disadvantage

[elfin night]

They can’t do anything if they are terrible or unaware

Sub cera can just run into the water

[unreal crystal]

I guess same goes for people being "oppressed" by cera.... if only they were less terrible and more aware...

[dusky surge]

Cera's speed is honestly quite decent idk why people say it's a downside

It's weakest stat is decent at best

[hasty coyote]

Because that’s the case for practically everything, tho I agree it’s an issue for them all.

Only Gali, Omni, pachy, dilo and stego gain speed while young.

[azure turret]

Let’s list everything Ceratosaurus has going for it:
Marathon stamina
Fast swimming speed
Alt attack in water
Charge bite
Fast attack speed
Bacteria
Body buff
Immune to small damage while eating
High bleed resistance
Above average bleed damage
Vomit on corpses to rot them
Incredible agility
Can scavenge

[unreal crystal]

As if water is everywhere on the map and deino isn't a thing..sure

[dusky surge]

A single flaw

[azure turret]

This dinosaur is incredibly overtuned compared to everything else. It DOES. NOT. NEED. EVERYTHING. ON. THIS. LIST.

[dusky surge]

How will cera recover

[elfin night]

Deino isn’t omnipresent+why wouldn’t a player with any knowledge take advantage of something in your ability

This is like complainining when a land sub herra is ran down and kicked to death by a galli

Or a dryo runs in a straight line and gets rammed by a carno

That’s a genuine skill issue if you die to a carno as a sub cera

You can just use the water and exploit the fact that you are an unwarranted semi aquatic

[azure turret]

Saying “oh what if there’s a deino” or “oh but what if there’s a Rex” is completely unnecessary. You’re discussing one animals ability to escape don’t bring luck into the question. If you’re talking about carno vs cera make it about carno vs cera and leave deino out of it.

Cera is given the ability to escape things via water and sure that means risking it with crocs but that doesn’t mean the ability is useless or not there

[unreal crystal]

I don't think developers gave cera all those abilities randomly.. rather I think there has been thoughtful thought process before and it just so happens that I agree with what developers had in mind

[elfin night]

Also having to bring the 40 minute long subadult stage in order to justify any weaknesses that compensate for the fact cera is goated at everything is

[dusky surge]

There was indeed a thoughtful process, it's a shame the animal turned out as oppressive as it is (and ironically, failed to do what the devs intended for it)

[unreal crystal]

As I said I never struggle against cera

[azure turret]

They definitely aren’t random and they do add to ceras kit, but cera doesn’t need everything on the list to be what it is intended to be, and the extra abilities give it way more of an edge than anything else on the roster

[unreal crystal]

Growing anything I def die more to carnos omni etc but def not cera

[elfin night]

The thoughtful process was to make cera not get steamrolled by carno, and thus that and not so efficient implementation led to ceratorex being reborn

In fact, the current cera is WORSE than OG ceratorex imo. Anyone agrees?

[dusky surge]

It is its own breed of ceratorex, ya

I just dislike how it has no clear weakness compared to everything else on the roster, which always has something

[azure turret]

Half of its abilities could be removed and it would have the same niche and identity or being a corpse bully/brawler, but without the capability to do everything else.

[hasty coyote]

+abuses all combat mutations to the fullest

[azure turret]

Just like how carno has a kit that lets him pursue and destroy prey and dominate a chase, but doesn’t have much capacity to hunt things larger than himself

[worthy steeple]

that’s what i was saying for quite a while, cera has such bloated kit full of buffs, even if we remove half of it it will still remain decent playable LOL

unironically

[elfin night]

Also you made a mistake

High bleed resistance is a lie, because that would assume it can bleed out something that I’ve never seen a HT cera suffering

[worthy steeple]

LMAO

[elfin night]

Call it virtual immunity

[unreal crystal]

I think before any changes are done to cera we need to see how the whole ecosystem reacts once Trex and Allo are introduced

[hasty coyote]

Virtual insanity

[elfin night]

Having like an effective +100k blood pool is so skull emoji

Single handedly the most overtuned stat I’ve seen in a video game

[hasty coyote]

Adding Rex and allo just make new problems, it doesn’t solve the previous ones.

[azure turret]

Ceratosaurus’ kit should revolve scavenging corpses and using honey-badger like aggression to push others off their kills and punish those that want to take it back. He’s capable of hunting, yes, but not particularly fast or capable In long distance pursuit. He has an extra touch of escaping to water from terrestrial threats, and that’s fine. That is how it should be.

[hasty coyote]

That’s like saying we shouldn’t put out a garbage fire until we see how it reacts when I throw gasoline in it.

[azure turret]

Lmao

[unreal crystal]

What I'm trying to say it's you don't know 100% how nerfs would impact cera once those 2 are released

[hasty coyote]

Here’s the thing, if cera gets run down by those 2, then Teno is def also getting rolled, and likely pachy with it. Which just means there’s a bigger issue than cera.

[unreal crystal]

But again I don't know if I have alot of common ground with alot of you as I don't play HT, officials or bad unofficial so I'm aware you might have a completely different gameplay experience than me

[azure turret]

Here’s what I think cera should have:
ability to inflict vomit sickness on targets
Charge bite (with slide)
Ability to scavenge
Quick swimming
Alt attack in water
High scent range
Body buff
Immune to small damage while eating
Vomit on corpses to rot them
Above average agility

As it stands, when a cera makes you vomit (as a carnivore) you’re not deterred from fighting it, you just need to kill it even more than before because now you’re starving. If cera gave you vomit sickness, then you have the opportunity to make the smart descision and leave to find a salt lick. Food/water should not be a resource you have to gamble in a fight with something that can also melt your health and blood. It’s overtuned.
Cera shouldn’t have marathon stamina. Anything it can’t efficiently escape from with pure speed can be dealt with by a cera by fighting back, or, swimming away using that handy escape tool of his. This kit makes cera corpse bully and a good brawler without all the cherries on top that turn this chocolate milkshake into a fruit tower.

[azure turret]

If you play unofficials I understand why you never have a problem with ceras.

[golden coral]

You should play officials to get the experience the devs meant, then you can have a say, because unofficials can, or will be able to, do more or less what they want. So whatever happens on one, says little to nothing about the official experience.

[hasty coyote]

Only nerfs I want for cera won’t affect its matchup against allo by much if anything. I just want there to be a slight stam cost to biting with charged bite (like 2-5%), vomit takes like 5 seconds to apply, bacteria to not apply if you already have vomit sickness, and vomit to only drain your food and water to half rather than 1/3rd.

[elfin night]

I only want cera to be nerfed in a way that it isn’t an everything bagel

[azure turret]

I seriously don’t think it should make anything vomit period. Only give vomit sickness

[hasty coyote]

That’s also fair, I’d be down for a bacteria rework that just makes it apply vomit sickness and just increase the lockout with more attacks.

[hasty coyote]

It’s too late for that besides an entire rework

[azure turret]

I don’t think ceras bacteria should be a tool to win fights, it should be a deterrent to keep people from wanting to fight you

[hasty coyote]

Currently it’s both, until it activates, then it forces you to fight the cera and also is a better combat tool

[azure turret]

Right. Maybe it could be something you receive from biting the cera instead of the cera biting you

[hasty coyote]

Nah that’s too free (and what I want for magy tbh lol)

[azure turret]

That way most herbivores aren’t too affected because 99% of the time they don’t have a choice if the cera chooses to hunt them. But the carnivores who do have the option not to, can avoid the cera

[azure turret]

I don’t think there’s too much harm in adding it at all

But for magy that’s a good idea

Maybe give cera the ability to vomit on itself and if you bite it while it’s covered In vomit you get sick

Maybe chuffing can be turned into that

[subtle ice]

??

[hasty coyote]

what?

[subtle ice]

Doesn't make sense man, what problems would come of that

[azure turret]

You get new problems everytime you add something new 😭 that’s just the way games work

[hasty coyote]

Its another thing to balance, which just causes problems in general.

Especially with the way its generally phrased that allo will "solve" the cera problem, which generally means allo is so strong it makes cera extinct, which means allo itself is the new problem.

[hasty coyote]

yeah, exactly. Throwing in allo and rex wont fix the fact that certain dinos are op, it just adds another dino that either gets bullied by the op ones or becomes another op one.

[azure turret]

Oh i see

Yeah one creature should never be the excuse that another is the way it is

Every Dino should be made in a way that it is balanced no matter who is in the roster

[hasty coyote]

yes

[azure turret]

Example: galli is balanced against everything. If you suddenly removed teno that wouldn’t make galli op, underpowered, or even change at all. If you add cera, galli isn’t op, underpowered, and still doesn’t change. It’s just galli. If you create a cera that is only contained by the presence of something that can keep its numbers down, you’re just finding an excuse to keep it op

[hasty coyote]

allos after making cera extinct:

https://tenor.com/view/under-new-management-more-like-under-new-management-megamind-megamind-meme-jokez_da_joke-gif-19867663

[azure turret]

If something is so strong that the only way to balance it is to make sure there’s something to keep it from existing than it is too strong

[hasty coyote]

see above gif

[finite shadow]

Don’t bother balancing cera guys just add allo surely it will be fine

Then when allo is a problem we can just add alberto instead of balancing allo, then we can add sucho instead of balancing Alberto

[azure turret]

Giving cera competition doesn’t make cera weaker, just lest prevalent. Look at cera being added with carno, it didn’t make carno weaker it just gave them competition

[finite shadow]

I mean technically it did make carno weaker cause carno got nerfed into the ground so cera wouldn’t struggle as much against it lol

[azure turret]

Nah, the devs made carno weaker, not cera 🤓

[elfin night]

Truthnuke

[elfin night]

or the worst of all suggestions that keeps being repeated: buff carno to match current cera

[azure turret]

When current carno literally does match cera lmao

Same weight, bite force, just different playstyle and method of attack

[elfin night]

to an extent yes

In deathmatch server for examples it's so annoying as a cera when carnos target you

as you have nowhere to run and they will just ram you to death in a flat area

but in terms of gameplay you mostly kill bad ceras as the good ones will either prefer to get an ambush or just wont bother at all fighting a carno in the open

[viscid mica]

Ya pretty much

[random stump]

https://tenor.com/view/dinosaur-the-isle-allosaurus-throw-child-gif-15330864226571724811

THE ALLOSAURUS stomps the competition.

[elfin night]

we know it's coming soon

however it can't be rushed

[random stump]

THE ALLOSAURUS is coming soon...

[minor axle]

#balance-feedback message

@gaming.fox I like the fat reserve idea, and the downsides seem pretty fair. The high end of the speed debuff might be slightly harsh but that is what the range is for I suppose

@neon lantern dunno why it didn’t tag.

[neon lantern]

Ye, the 50% is extreme, but idk how OP the extra life time will be in game

[minor axle]

Yeah, would definitely have to be tested. Since it only built up when full I feel it won’t be too bad. Since many struggle to get half full

Probably most usable when small to inflate on fish, but small crocs aren’t that big of a deal either

[neon lantern]

Yea, when I drafted it; I was thinking of a croc scoring something like a stego, and then being able to last the next 3 hrs or so

Testing is very necessary if this were to be put in, as that would be another 1.5 hrs on a crocs life time.

[honest wasp]

They really made the Trike sound like 2014 Godzilla....

[elfin night]

how

they are very vaguely similar and just in how the pitch shifts at one time

[minor axle]

Yeah, though tbh I do think deinos need the help.

[viscid mica]

Oh god allo glazing in balancing chat

The world is coming to a end

[steep gazelle]

I'm surprised to see that there are still people who think that the current state of Cerato is super balanced xd

[random stump]

THE ALLOSAURUS is displeased with your comments

[viscid mica]

Oh god

[elfin night]

allo is popular, mass produced slop

[random stump]

THE ALLOSAURUS admits this is true

[minor axle]

Popular because it is right

It’s superior quality is widely recognized. Only a Majungasaurus [accursed be that foul beast] could deny it.

[random stump]

THE ALLOSAURUS grapples the majungasaurus and pins it.

[rotund whale]

Don't want to make a suggestion until i get some other takes, but does anyone else agree that cera vomit is a bit of a stupid mechanic?
I'm on a 450kg creature with full hunger, thirst and stamina. Cera bites me one time, I immediately vomit

either the vomit needs to take more time to take effect, or it needs some sort of nerf. making everything under its weight essentially instavomit seems ridiculous. gives it free extra bites

[minor axle]

I think it shouldn’t be immediately. That’s basically the only change I would want made.

That way it is a sickness, you know it infects you, you get sick, and then as you get sick enough you vomit

[rotund whale]

i also had a 30-40% cera bite me one time, and i still instavomited

agreed, if the 'instant' was removed it'd be much better. would encourage dinos to get away - perhaps making them bleed out more, and the cera could track them with its slower speed - but in this case the tracking system needs a buff as well

i wonder if a % 'chance' to vomit could be better? depending on how many bites you've taken, the likelihood of vomiting increases

[keen plover]

not a chance tbh

[hasty coyote]

Yeah vomit needs some nerfs and adjustments. Imo, less immediate effects (especially ones useful in combat) and more long term effects.

Like make bacteria instead directly apply vomit sickness without vomit. The stat lockout increases based on the % hp dealt, up to like 50% lockout at 1% hp

[rotund whale]

oh this is a good idea, lower hunger / thirst each bite and only induce vomit if you get multiple bites in. i just think playing a 500kg creature and immediately vomiting was absolutely ridiculous - if you're bit once, you're dead since you vomit and can't move. at least on galli i can jump around and might get lucky

[hasty coyote]

Also adding % chance in any combat scenario is a horrible play, that means certain matchups live and die by the whim of RNGesus. Cera got lucky and the Omni nstantly vomits? Guess cera gets a free kill now. Allo just doesn’t vomit in time for the cera to escort? Guess allo gets a free kill now.

[hasty coyote]

Eh, I’d rather it didn’t vomit at all if it gets the immediate lockout effect, otherwise that’s just a net positive for cera. If you want to keep vomit, give it like a 5-10 second delay and make targets who have vomit sickness immune to vomit.

[slim dragon]

@dusky surge It's funny as soon as you mentioned charges I thought "Oh, they should all be spent at the same time whenever headswinging"
And next line :

[dusky surge]

im ahead of you

ive considered all of this

[thorn mountain]

#balance-feedback message woah wavepoole making feedback instead of arguing with small children about how their suggestion is dumb 😮

[elfin night]

So true

[dusky surge]

i only make feedback that i can't find a colossal flaw in after 2 rereads

[thorn mountain]

[tall cypress]

Oh wow what a idea. Bring back old carno.

[dusky surge]

no lol

Old carno sucks

[shrewd jungle]

update 6 carnotaur

[tall cypress]

Same as old carno lol

[thorn mountain]

what he suggested is not old carno...

[tall cypress]

It is just 200 less weight

[thorn mountain]

did you play old carno>

[dusky surge]

yea, besides the weight, speed, bite force, stamina, charge, momentum mechanic, headswing mechanic, knockdown threshholds, charge damage and so on, it's basically the same, you got me

[vale brook]

https://tenor.com/view/apple-orange-gif-26930909

[dusky surge]

i love that, despite people begging for 1800kg carno's return, apparently no one knows anything about 1800kg carno besides the fact it's 1800kg

[crimson crater]

i see no difference

[elfin night]

they only appreciate things when they are lost

[tall cypress]

I have 3k hour on Evrima ofc i played it. This carno is same as wolf inside sheep costume.

[thorn mountain]

its really not

old carno literally sucked as a endurance hunter

@stray magnet btw making rex a canni will boost the pop

weird thing

[elfin night]

@stray magnet isle cannibal paradox

Getting diet from corpses of your own and no debuffs means that if everyone plays rex, everyone gets a net benefit. Cera overpopulation globally is partially due to it being a cannibal and easy to grow, and deino in gateway would be even rarer than pachy if it couldn’t just eat other crocs for a diet boost

[thorn mountain]

facts

[elfin night]

Deino would straight up go extinct if it wasn’t a canni

So cannibalism does not really control population

At best it controls age as the juveniles get massacred

But still juvenile corpses everywhere to eat, so you get a free ride if you don’t run into an adult

[eager saddle]

Exactly! I always found this a weird argument….

[tall cypress]

For the first month of launch of REX its need to be canni

[eager saddle]

It would still canni mind you, just get less from it

[tall cypress]

Cause everybody will play rex

[thorn mountain]

no

[thorn mountain]

exactly

[tall cypress]

Yes must have to

[eager saddle]

Why would it have to be?

[dusky surge]

let them starve and learn

[tall cypress]

Xd why

[dusky surge]

because the game is a survival game

[thorn mountain]

making it not a canni would make rexes starve inturn making the pop go down

[tall cypress]

Just for 2 months and you can change it

Its not a life stuation

[thorn mountain]

why?

[tall cypress]

What why

[eager saddle]

But why would you get people accustomed to it, only to remove it later?

[tall cypress]

Every body wants to try REX

[thorn mountain]

exactly

[tall cypress]

Just for a month let them have fun

[thorn mountain]

if they want to play it they can

they can still survive

[tall cypress]

Yea with no growth

[thorn mountain]

yeah

[tall cypress]

Takin 12 13 hours to grow

What a funny experiment

[thorn mountain]

all the impatient people will go off rex and play other things in turn giving rex food

[tall cypress]

Every body will play rex when it comes for a month

[dusky surge]

and only the best will prosper

survival game

[tall cypress]

Make REX canni for a month

[rapid flume]

trike with 100% diets takes like 16 hours, rex will probably be the same

[tall cypress]

Nd change it

[dusky surge]

then people will cry and complain when its removed

[tall cypress]

Yea i mean minimum

[dusky surge]

you're better off not having it at all

[tall cypress]

Idk they can rcy

But this how it have to done

[dusky surge]

they can cry when it's not added at all too

[tall cypress]

Yea

[dusky surge]

so don't add it

[tall cypress]

Add for a month and remove it

[dusky surge]

don't give rex canni at all because then they can cry

[tall cypress]

Finito not a hard thing

[dusky surge]

"rex is too hard with all these rexes around"

yea, sucks

[eager saddle]

Back into the circle we go

[dusky surge]

try something else lol

[tall cypress]

Xd

Good luck growing REX without diet

[dusky surge]

Don’t baby Rex players, they need to learn the hard way

[dusky surge]

I’m probably gonna play hypsi instead lol

[eager saddle]

Ai still exist for majority of your growth

[tall cypress]

Xd

[eager saddle]

Just to annoy rexes?

[tall cypress]

Oh yea 9 ton apex eating 50 kg cow

[thorn mountain]

to be silly

[eager saddle]

Also can someone why trike gets majority of its stats within an hour of growth or something

[tall cypress]

Yea

[eager saddle]

Aren’t apexes supposed to be vulnerable at the beginning

[tall cypress]

ıt reaches 1ton when its only 10%

[tall cypress]

Yup

[elfin night]

No lol, let them die and actually earn their fg

We are testing rex in the HT, and not just rex vs rex, but also how it performs with everything else in game

Making it a canni would just encourage people to exclusively play Rex

[dusky surge]

no because the hypsi climb sounds so fun

and that yes

[dusky surge]

^

it shows data inconsistent with what they want

[elfin night]

Yup. Also that

[rapid flume]

I hope we get the ptera rework when rex comes out

[elfin night]

Its pointless to implement a change that you won’t add anyway if your goal is to test how things would perform

[tall cypress]

How you going to grow your REX without diets

[elfin night]

And if other playables hadn’t been encouraged to play, then no one would have really noticed how originally stego was absolutely cooked when walked down by trike, or how absurdly broken cera is when it can absolutely take on 9 ton apexes

[elfin night]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

[dusky surge]

either very slowly, or not at all

try getting that nifty lil cannibal mutation if it bugs you so bad

[tall cypress]

What a Good to hear

[elfin night]

Or you will be extremely cracked at the game and will get your diet anyway

I posted the gif as a joke

[tall cypress]

E cant try REX when we have to

[elfin night]

There will simply be competition among Rexes

There won’t be diet for everyone

[dusky surge]

you can try it, and you can fail when the ecosystem doesn't support a rex

[elfin night]

And many rexes will die as a product of subsistence cannibalism, rather than diet one

[dusky surge]

or you can adapt

[tall cypress]

Xd

[dusky surge]

50 rexes should not be sustainable under any circumstance

[tall cypress]

I said only for a HT not game

[dusky surge]

idc if "every wants to play it", they should not expect FG

[tall cypress]

I have to say i think ht need a growth buff

[dusky surge]

then they're not testing accurate data on rex growth

[tall cypress]

HT only meaning for finding bugs and trying New thing

[elfin night]

If less people play Rex because they know for a fact there won’t be enough diet to make it not take (unless they sacrifice their camouflage with the cannibal mutation), then they will play something else and lead to proper game testing because it won’t be just Rex vs rex and the occasional ceras or dilos

[tall cypress]

.

[elfin night]

This is the problem with what you propose of making it HT only

It wouldn’t be a faithful representation of how it would turn out in game

[dusky surge]

absolutely untrue

the HT is to test the gameplay mechanics, balance and so on of everything

it is not just for a fun preview or bugtesting, it is to ensure everything is suitable for main branch, both mechanically and conceptually

it is not concerned with making sure as many people can run around as their apexes as possible, because that's not what they want happening, so why would they enable that

[elfin night]

then it wouldn't make sense to:

• adjust stun recovery times for several playables
• adjust dilo clones
• change cera's charged bite
• give more attacks in sparring mode for dibble and trike
• buff maia quad and alt attacks
• nerf maia swim speed
• make it so cera only gets bacteria from rotting bodies
• reduce troodon's pounce stamina cost
• change troodon's diet
• reduce juvenile troodon speed
• reduce trike trot speed

All changes that have occured in this HT, alongside others I have forgotten

HT is very much a public testing process of an upcoming update, including everything that comes with it

new playables, bug fixing, balance changes, map changes...

[tall cypress]

If we grew faster, wouldn't we still get the same results?

[dusky surge]

not at all

[elfin night]

nope

because growing is part of the gameplay loop

a very important one, in fact

[dusky surge]

ESPECIALLY with rex

if anything, rex SHOULD be really hard to grow in HT

because each stage is uniquely balanced and animated and designed

[elfin night]

imagine if deino grew in 30 minutes

Would the population be the same like that of a 6-7h long growth deinos?

[dusky surge]

so each growth stage needs a LOT of attention

like with rex, if anything, it should be in the dev's best interest to make it as hard to grow as possible for testing

[tall cypress]

Its not going to be 30 minute just 2 3 hour shorter damn 😭🥀

[dusky surge]

because adult rex is a mere fraction of the total rex experience

[elfin night]

it still proves that growth matters

[tall cypress]

No

[elfin night]

and as said by wave, ESPECIALLY with rex

[tall cypress]

What changes with growth speed here. Tell me

[elfin night]

oh, so then the results would be the same if deino grew in 2 hours or in 6?

[dusky surge]

lowering the growth does the opposite of a HT. You're cutting out vital parts of stuff that needs to be tested because you want an easy apex fantasy

Prioritising the horde over the test

[tall cypress]

For deino 4.5 is enough

For REX 7 is enough

[elfin night]

In apexes, it changes player pick rate as more people would be attracted to the idea of growing something that is strong and easy to grow (see ceratosaurus), while also diminishing the extent to which smaller creatures can interact with them

You can see this perfectly with cera in the live branch, looking no further

[dusky surge]

rex should take exactly as long as trike takes

each stage of rex's growth is viable, not just adult

[elfin night]

you would be increasing pick rate of the big stompy creature while also throwing a middle finger at smaller creatures because you are uninteractable (is that thr word?) sooner

[dusky surge]

actually learn each stage and adapt accordingly, because THAT'S the feedback the devs want, not "adult rex vs adult trike balance feedback #135"

the adult stage is a mere portion of the total things that need testing with rex

[elfin night]

being a juvenile rex for like 5 hours would matter a lot more to carnos, omnis, dilos, dryos, gallis, herreras and so on (for varied reasons) than if it only lasted 1 hour.

[dusky surge]

each stage of rex has unique matchups with other members of the roster and need to be balanced accordingly

juvi rex vs carno is just as important as trike vs rex, and if we're rushing to get to adult as fast as possible, we miss these vital elements

[elfin night]

and we can also see this with the current trike growth curve

Trike on release didn't even need to drink ONCE and it was already large enough to be immune to deino on land

But not it has to drink roughly like 3-4 thirst bars worth of water without mutations before hitting 4 tons

that fundamentally alters a matchup

[tall cypress]

I only mean a Lil time

1.25x

[dusky surge]

again, entirely unnecessary and defeats the point

[tall cypress]

İs ok

[dusky surge]

rex doesn't need it, and it goes against the point of the testing process

[elfin night]

That's NOT a little

that would be 12 hours on a 100% diet trike compared to the current 16

[tall cypress]

I didnt say REX have to be grow faster than trike

[dusky surge]

the HT isn't there so content creators get to make their rex videos, it's there to test EVERYTHING

[tall cypress]

Yea it would be fine

Not a big change just helpong player bade to reach adult faster

More player going to came HY

HT

[dusky surge]

the HT isn't a marketing stunt

[tall cypress]

More player means more bugs

[dusky surge]

it is a testing ground that the people are allowed to participate in

[tall cypress]

More bugs in ht means less bugs in evrima

[dusky surge]

also rex itself will bring the players, not how fast it grows

[tall cypress]

Some people have no time to grow rex

[dusky surge]

sucks for them, neither do I, that's why I won't be growing one

[tall cypress]

İt would be great mybe some servers have 1.25x speed

[dusky surge]

unofficials will have that when rex goes live

[tall cypress]

Like there would be pvp servers in ht

Thats helps for pvping problems

[dusky surge]

absolutely unnecessary and against the point

[tall cypress]

That would be grate

[tall cypress]

Ah uea

İsLE oNlY meANt To bE sURviVal GamE

[dusky surge]

don't allow your playerbase to skip over growth when growth is extremely important to rex

[tall cypress]

Again brother again

Only pvp servers sandbox servers

[elfin night]

I might grow a rex, but if it's hard it's hard

Will probably be a contrarian and play stego the first days though

[elfin night]

what?

[tall cypress]

HT needs a sandbox server

[dusky surge]

it does not

[tall cypress]

Yes

[dusky surge]

because that means people will ignore the growth of rex

[elfin night]

that's not developer intention

[dusky surge]

aka defeating the entire point of the HT

[tall cypress]

Like it would help finding bugs

[dusky surge]

you know what would help more? survival servers where you have to grow and survive

[slim dragon]

no ?

[tall cypress]

Only for some servers

[tall cypress]

Xdddd

[elfin night]

It's like me demanding a ranked mode

The devs don't care if I like ranked and I would love to play ina Highlands themed small map and first pick herrera while banning carno, it's just NOT what they want

@tall cypress

[tall cypress]

This guy cant play Good isle

[tall cypress]

Have you play legacy?

[dusky surge]

because i dont play on instant grow servers, i'm bad at the game?

that's new

[elfin night]

I have, deathmatch servers were not officials

[tall cypress]

Yes

We need some

İt would help finding bugs

[elfin night]

so why should the developers add deathmatch servers when their entire development revolves around survival?

[tall cypress]

Because of fun

[elfin night]

it would help clans training

[tall cypress]

Yea

İ mean? Problem?

[elfin night]

I can find ranked modes fun

Doesn't mean the devs should add leagues and drafting in a certain game mode

it's just not what they want to do

[tall cypress]

You thing sandbox is ranked in legacy?

Or peoples just having fun

[elfin night]

I never said that

I said it is not developer vision

[tall cypress]

You said that

[dusky surge]

he did not say that

[elfin night]

so you shouldn't demand them to do something they don't want

[tall cypress]

He said that

Lmao 👍🏻😭

[dusky surge]

i read what he said

he did not say that lmao

[elfin night]

I didn't say that in the slighest, I was pulling my analogy

deathmatch has the same logic as ranked. Devs won't make either of them because it's not their vision

even if you can find them fun, end of story

[elfin night]

you would have to wait for mods or simply deathmatch servers which already exist

[tall cypress]

No it isnt

Bruuuuuuhhhh

I already play admin servers

[elfin night]

where did I say that LEGACY SANDBOX servers are this RANKED mode I would hypothetically want in the game

[tall cypress]

And it is fan and incrase my pvp skill

[tall cypress]

You said Evrima

İ didnt say you said legacy

[dusky surge]

You can do that once rex is live

[elfin night]

where did I say this, brother?

[elfin night]

okay then, wait a month or two and there you go, now you can play rex as much as you like

[tall cypress]

İ saying same as legacy so

No i dont want to play rex

İ hate REX lmao

[dusky surge]

if you want an instant grow rex to get super good at rex PvP, you can go to norden once rex is out

[tall cypress]

İ just want to try it for a hour snd quit

Thats all

[tall cypress]

Like i said

[elfin night]

so you can wait until norden or purchase a grow or something like that

[tall cypress]

We need more of that servers

We need servers like that in ht

[elfin night]

no need to tell the devs to make a deathmatch server tanking all the performance with the sheer volume of corpses and players

[tall cypress]

İt would help find bugs

Thats all i say

[dusky surge]

you will get those servers on live. HT forces you to test the game the way the devs intend

[tall cypress]

With 290 ping

İ cant test it like that

[dusky surge]

The devs know, that's why those servers exist for QA.

For the regular person, they have to grow

QA are the one who get to instant grow with admin

You are a hordetester, you are playing the way the game is intended

[elfin night]

you can also do that just fine in the normal map surviving, as growth can also display bugs and the map can also have more interactions that need fixing than two people fighting in a flat testing area

Tell me, would have someone noticed that bush rustling sounds or pteros suddenly flocking 10 times in a row needed tuning while playing on a testing flat map or just on the water access beach?

combat bugs aren't the only ones worth addressing, and it wouldn't speed up the process as people fight in gateway regardless

[rotund whale]

yea fair enough

[unreal crystal]

I 100% get what you are saying but I feel like (major conspiracy warning) even official are a bit of a HT themselves and once they game will be "completed" there will be major changes done to officials. I mean why wouldn't it... I just can't imagine all this potential and devs be like "yes there's nothing we can improve here"

I also don't believe mixpacking (herbivores & carnivores) and 90% of server population made by a single species is something devs envisioned originally

So if we have to be honest the current state officials is definitely not the experience devs intended people to have

[golden coral]

Oh I've no doubt they'll change, after all, we've had patches before. And no, I don't think they approve of mixing, they're working on that far as I know. The point wasn't at all that current official is the intended, final experience. Just that it's official you need to work with to be able to give feedback. Unless we're operating on "whatever happens on officials doesn't matter, we'll fix it on our own at some point", but then there'd be no real point in feedback.

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

diablos (specifically smaller ones that can be charged without carno stunning itself) are actually pretty easy kills for carno lol. diet doesn't = easy/normal hunts, it just means you get diet from it lol.

deino is on cera diet, that doesn't mean cerato can go around killing FG deinos

[golden coral]

Even cera isn't quite that powerful xD

[vale brook]

the stun could be shortened a bit tho yah

[tall cypress]

3 cera can easily wipe a deino from existence

[vale brook]

yes but that does not mean they are reguarly doing it lol

[potent fox]

There just needs to be a short window of stun protection after getting back up/recovering. stuns are fine even if they are long you just don’t want it to be a true combo

[tall cypress]

I reguarly doing

Just buff carno

Isnt that complicated

Make it 1500kg

And NERF stun time

Lets talk about something

[vale brook]

but why lol

[tall cypress]

I am a 90 kg male

[dusky surge]

what

[tall cypress]

İf 70 male run toward to me and hit me with all his power

[cosmic pelican]

Carno gets up faster in the HT, so it cant be stunlocked anymore

[tall cypress]

I will fall

[tall cypress]

Oh i didnt know thag

[dusky surge]

wait so you call my rework just old carno but 1500kg carno is somehow better what

[tall cypress]

No i didnt say your idea is bad

İ just tried to mention

[dusky surge]

you did

because old carno is bad as hell lmao

screw that thing

[tall cypress]

Nah

Old carno was a man of isle at the time

Now cera is Man of the isle

[dusky surge]

it was a garbage mess of bad balance and weird nerfs

[tall cypress]

When REX arrives it will be

[tall cypress]

Ok i agree

I mean play style

[dusky surge]

it didnt really have one lol

[tall cypress]

I want a carno that is a big boi, slow but powerfukl

[dusky surge]

it was so butchered that it had no consistent kit

"slow but powerful"

you want CARNO to be that?

[tall cypress]

Xd

[dusky surge]

the animal designed to be fast

[tall cypress]

No no

[dusky surge]

slow and powerful

[cosmic pelican]

Thats just allo

[vale brook]

you want carno, one of if not the fastest theropods we know of... to be what

[tall cypress]

İ MEan turning is slow

[vale brook]

oh

[tall cypress]

Sorry for that

[vale brook]

it already does lol

[dusky surge]

it does lol

[vale brook]

charge turn kills my soul

[tall cypress]

No enough

Too powerfull

[dusky surge]

??

[tall cypress]

Yes not enough

I can easly turn with that

Old was better design

But too op

[dusky surge]

no it wasn't lol it literally had the same turn radius

[tall cypress]

This carno isnt even biting only using ram

[dusky surge]

also i dont think it was "too OP" at all, the issue was the opposite

old carno was garbage in 300 ways

[tall cypress]

İt isnt even entertaining

[dusky surge]

that was old carno too lol

350 damage on ram why would you ever bite

[tall cypress]

Xd

Old carno cant ram whenever it wants

[dusky surge]

yea because they overnerfed it in the least comfortable way possible

[tall cypress]

You had to run like at least 2 3 seconds

[dusky surge]

no it didn't lol

[tall cypress]

Yes it is

[dusky surge]

it had instant accel, just like now

[tall cypress]

Me when i lie

[dusky surge]

im literally not

[tall cypress]

Dang

[dusky surge]

istg people didn't actually play 1.8 ton carno before it got turned to 1.3 ton

[tall cypress]

Then you didnt play carno xd

[dusky surge]

when gateway was added, carno got instant accel

[tall cypress]

I have at least 150 200 hour at old carno

[dusky surge]

tapram was literally its core strategy

[tall cypress]

No it isnt

[dusky surge]

not anymore

because they addressed the problem

[tall cypress]

Tapram never a thing with old carno

[vale brook]

it definitely was

[dusky surge]

it absolutely was wtf are you talking about

[vale brook]

like to deny that is just lying lol

[tall cypress]

This is a lie

Xd

[dusky surge]

it literally isn't

im doubting you playing carno lol

[tall cypress]

Non isle player in chat

Lmafao

[vale brook]

i guess my 2k hours mean nothing 💔

[dusky surge]

the only carno this applies to is 6.5 carno, who is dead and buried

tapram meta was a thing for a LONG time on gateway

i'm shocked you never heard of it lol

[hasty coyote]

the issue with old carno was that it was only good at hunting like 4 dinos max, or it was blatantly op. there was no in between

[tall cypress]

Never said gateway

[tropic horizon]

It was for a good long while, they eventually got rid of the stun you’d get on it but tapram was literally the meta.

[tall cypress]

İ talking about 2021 2022

[dusky surge]

and explain to me how i'm supposed to know that

[tall cypress]

Not even 2022

[dusky surge]

im not psychic why are you acting like i should've known that

[tall cypress]

Old carno is old carno

[hasty coyote]

so before half the current roster was in the game and those that were in game played completely differently?

[vale brook]

mind you, wave mentions gateway before lol

[tall cypress]

What are you talking about bruh

[tropic horizon]

Old carno means a lot of things

[tall cypress]

Oldest carno

[vale brook]

so release carno?

[dusky surge]

old carno means literally everything between herrera/dilo update and U2 carno

[tall cypress]

Kong of the land i say

[hasty coyote]

most people refer to update 6-6.5 as "old carno"

[tropic horizon]

Launch carno? Like update 2-4 carno

[dusky surge]

U2 carno was disgustingly OP IDK why we're using it as a metric of balance lol

[tall cypress]

Yea

[tropic horizon]

Yeah update 3 carno if I recall was pretty busted.

Insane agility, damage, health, etc

[vale brook]

non isle player in chat
lmafao

[tall cypress]

İ am sayıng that LoL i want that carno but Lil weaker

[dusky surge]

I don't

[tropic horizon]

That things drift was nearly instant my god

[dusky surge]

I want a momentum-based hunter

[tall cypress]

Dc

[dusky surge]

Because an animal built around speed and momentum should show it

[tall cypress]

Yes

I saying that too

[dusky surge]

And U2 carno was basically a brawler, so I don't think you are

[tropic horizon]

Update 3 carno was like, ambush into brawl kind of carno. Depending on what you hunted.

[tall cypress]

Fast but bad turn radius, heavy and a King but easy to anti play

[dusky surge]

I want a pursuit, momentum hunter

U2-U3 was an ambush/brawl hunter, which is the complete opposite

[tall cypress]

You know what is momentum mean right?

[dusky surge]

Yes

[tall cypress]

Momentum comes with weight too

[dusky surge]

I mean, not necessarily lol

[tall cypress]

?

[dusky surge]

You don't need weight to have momentum

[tall cypress]

Thats right

But it effecting it

[dusky surge]

Sure, hence why a 1.3 ton animal moving at nearly 60km/hr has hella momentum, or in the case of my feedback, a 1.6 ton animal

[tall cypress]

If you want momentum carno you can get it with 1500kg and 51km/h speed with bad turn radius and with "old" ram

This is it

Not that complicated

[dusky surge]

Basically what I made except screw old ram

[hasty coyote]

https://tenor.com/view/monster-versus-vs-alien-monster-vs-alien-gif-16037253809360562033

[dusky surge]

I made that, but with a better ram

Also speaking of I SLIGHTLY tweaked my carno feedback to feed into the "momentum" idea

[faint timber]

old ram is much better now it's like a race car I don't like it

[dusky surge]

Hell no

[vale brook]

i like my speedboost

[dusky surge]

Old ram is a nuke with no mechanical versatility

[vale brook]

also i mean carno is meant to feel like an angry bullet train

[tropic horizon]

Which old ram are you talking about cause uh

A lot of them sucked ass

[vale brook]

so it feeling like a race car is probably good lol

[faint timber]

I still don't like infinite ram I think it's bad

[dusky surge]

Also I SLIGHTLY reworked my ram idea

speedy speed gain

More momentum = more fast

Make you feel the impact of the mechanic

[faint timber]

Hm I think the best ram was carno update 6 ram

[dusky surge]

dude that was like

[tropic horizon]

HELL NO

[dusky surge]

the absolute worst of the worst

[tropic horizon]

Second ONLY to gateway launch ram.

[dusky surge]

basically infinite ram with a colossal hitbox, instant knockdowns and 350 damage

[tropic horizon]

Because gateway launch ram was somehow easier to hit than it

[faint timber]

Hmm I knew how to kill old Canro, it was no problem for me

[dusky surge]

it's literally the ram you just said you didn't like

[dusky surge]

How tf it had a moon sized hitbox

If it let you kill it it's bad

U6 carno literally didn't need to try lol