balance-feedback-discussion

[neon willow]

The number of times it's looked like I'm out of range of a stego swing, only to be impaled to death and teleported onto the thagomizer as my client syncs back up with the server is crazy

I admit I'm not a good Omni player lol. But it doesn't help when my screen is lying to me about whether I'm in range or not

[fiery bough]

@topaz elm I get your point about bleeding but also like… a raptors claw going across a dryo is gonna hit WAY more arteries than it’d hit on a Maia or teno. They’d realistically be gutted right away while on a Maia it’d be like getting stabbed by a little pumpkin carving tool. Definitely painful and gonna make you bleed but you’ll be fine for a while.

[topaz elm]

see above

small creatures - more bleed damage because they physically have less blood in them
medium creatures - neutral/better bleed resistance because they need less blood to support their body, whilst also having lots to "spare"
large creatures - more bleed damage because they don't have blood to spare, losing too much can cause failure of body systems due to lack of oxygen

[narrow walrus]

The bleed logic doesn’t make sense imo

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

bleed is exactly as effective against smalls as it is against large animals atm

there is functionally no difference besides bigger thing = more blood

[tall cypress]

When fighting with cerato, the bacteria capacity creates too many problems, it needs to be balanced.
After taking bacteria from cerato, instead of vomiting immediately, a warning should appear on the stomach indicator and after a few seconds, we should vomit (it gives the player time to create distance between himself and cerato)
The bacteria needed to make the player vomit should be given in more bites (the bacteria rate per bite should be reduced) and the amount of slowing down after vomiting should be reduced, we can be bitten at least 2 more times during this time.

also I have 2 different suggestions for RMB only one is enough

1 --> RMB no longer gives bacteria instead it slows the opponent down a very small amount (very little, like 5 or 10%)

2 --> When pressing RMB the speed should decrease gradually but the damage will increase gradually

0-4 seconds speed 110% to 75%
0-2.5 seconds damage
175 to 275

also pressing RMB continuously causes pain in cerato's jaw and he can't press RMB continuously(I only brought it so that they don't abuse the instant 110% buff I gave to his speed. for example after pressing RMB 3 times in a row his jaw should rest for at least 15 seconds)

(yes when they first press RMB they start with 175 damage not 150. otherwise it's too much (It would be too much of a nerf. It's a very small change anyway)

This feature will slightly reduce the ceratos' most important feature, agility. It can be modified, but this is the basic logic

What can be done to this more or less?

[elfin night]

Skill issue /j

[hasty coyote]

Making the charged bite not apply bacteria will make fighing hit-and-run dinos much harder (like carno), and slowing the opponent down by that small of an amount will not help a single matchup other than making pachy die on sight: charged bite slow into reg bite vomit into another bite and that pachy is dead. even a 5% slow on pachy makes it slower than cera

Also making cera get a 10% speed boost at the start of charged bite is unnecessary.

Nerfing cera's charged bite damage to 275 from 345 will also hurt its defense immensely, damage is cera's main survival strategy against faster targets. Also making cera have either charges or a flat out lockout from using charged bite is an easy way to make cera's defense worse while not impacting its offense at all. Cera on the offense can just wait to charged bite again, cera on the defense is left incredibly vulnerable without its main ability for a whole 15 second.

Overall, these changes only make cera stronger on the offense and weaker on the defense, which is the opposite of what cera needs.

[steep gazelle]

The hordtest changes are good, but they were poorly done, they just need adjustments to the stam cost and speed reduction to be good

Increase the stam cost and make the speed reduction instantaneous and constant as long as the charge bite is active

[tight cove]

@tardy wind I see your point about how tac endurance is a life line for stego and Maia but at the same time both these Dino’s for the most part have options and can choose to run away or not, if the devs remove this perk it would make players play smarter and choose there fights better which is a benefit also id like to point out dibbles vs stego ngl your already screwed for the most part so having tac endurance doesn’t even matter so to fix it the devs should just lower the stun threshold for dibble

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message it’s not small, it’s how it supposed to be

[hasty coyote]

genuinely, what options does stego have? Its slower than every dino in the game except trike (who can stunlock and maul it) and its only defense is to swing and literally MELT its stamina. Stego relies on tactile immensely, even if diablo's stuns were removed, it still takes 70% of its stam (7 power swings) to kill a single diablo to the head without blocking (since its incredibly easy to make sure you're always facing a stego as diablo), with blocking stego has to burn 140% of its stam in power swings to kill the diablo. And against rex (assuming 9350 hp like we last saw) it takes 60% to the body or 40% with all headshots. The only other dino with comparable stam costs are deino and omni, both of which have attacks that prevent counterplay. Meanwhile stego's attacks are telegraphed, have openings afterwards, and are only useful defensively.
I dont think they should cost 0 stam, but they would def need a buff once tactile is removed.

I agree with other herbivores though. Since tac allows them to fight and then just decide to leave with full stam the moment it goes south. Though maia's alts could prob cost a bit less since they already deal low damage.

[tight cove]

Yeah I agree bro

[neon willow]

@near basin the answer is somewhat obvious, as far as gun damage goes - it should have a damage value just like dinosaur attacks, and any dinosaur that has more health than that value would require multiple shots to kill, especially with guns that can fire quickly. Something like a hunting rifle that requires you to SLOWLY reload could have more damage, of course, but honestly human weapons should be relatively low power to enhance the horror factor for humans, and to make it fair for players that spent hours growing a dinosaur who also only has melee attacks.

[near basin]

that is obviously true but has nothing to do with what i'm talking about in the gun situation

[neon willow]

Also, I suppose they could make items carried by humans despawn on death or destroyable by dinosaurs (in the same way that nests can be damaged) to force humans to actually lose progress when they die

[neon willow]

You sort of touched on it at the end there with the Omni/revolver matchup and also mention of the "delicate balance" in the post itself

[near basin]

Making it despawn on death won't diminish the main problem with humans, being willpower

The concern here is how zergs of humans will gather guns, store them, and go on killingsprees

upon dying, returning to the base and repeating

[neon willow]

You said in your feedback the main difference between the rex and a human with guns is that the gun can be retrieved on death... Despawning would make it so that they couldn't do that, and that every time a human left their base with gear they were risking losing power, just like dinosaurs

But, if you're concerned about stockpiling, the game can limit how much humans can carry, and how much they can store in lockers and such

[near basin]

If the gun despawns on death, there still lies a problem where the human respawns and gets another gun from their base

[neon willow]

Especially if humans can only renovate existing facilities and can't actually build new storage

[near basin]

Unless the lockers are craftable, and they can renovate for more space

Zergs of humans grinding for guns & equipment will inevitably funnel into a large problem

[neon willow]

This is only a problem if 1) guns are not a rare commodity that are difficult and dangerous to get, and 2) you can loot gremlin everything and stash it in storage. By limiting these two factors you can make actually having any sort of large stockpile extremely difficult

[near basin]

You can make it "extremely difficult", but as long as there is a possibility in there - nothing is stopping a zerg.

[neon willow]

But if your base only has 3 lockers, and you can't build more, and each locker lets you store like 1 gun and 1 set of gear... Humans will not be able to stockpile much

[near basin]

I doubt they'll make it that restrictive

[neon willow]

If it's an impossible task to stop a zerg... Then why make the feedback in the first place? It sounded like you wanted suggestions and/or discussion on potential solutions, but according to you there IS no solution possible

[near basin]

Obviously there are measures that can be taken to prevent stockpiling (such as you mentioned), but these will limit humans till the point where it's unfun.

So the mindboggling question here is how will the devs manage to find the balance without
A: Restricting humans too much
B: Making coordinated human zergs broken

[neon willow]

Of course players can and will try to test the limits of what is permitted, but there will ALWAYS be an edge case to whatever rules the devs put in

[near basin]

It's not impossible with the right restrictions, obviously. Such as the one you mentioned, a zerg can't do much with drawbacks like that

like you won't see a clan in rust do much at all if they can only store 3 kits in their base

But solutions like these restrict the humans too much, so then comes another problem

Realistically speaking, how will they avoid both of these problems? broken or too restricted

it's a super super complex issue because humans in this game works in a way that is incomparable with how dinos work

[steep gazelle]

Honestly, the Isle doesn't need humans

Normal humans, the ones who can use weapons. The mutated ones are actually a really cool addition

[dusky surge]

I think it's a really cool addition and I think the game can really benefit from them

[neon willow]

Honestly, the horror I think will mostly come from the human perspective/gameplay. Creature features are a popular horror genre for a reason. They're an important part of gameplay in the sense that it will probably be a pretty big part of dino gameplay to hunt/kill human players, especially for carnivores.

Plus, human gameplay allows the developers to do a lot more with active lore - you can put information drops on computer terminals and notebooks and such that humans can easily interact with, but would be incredibly difficult to communicate to dinosaurs in the same way

[near basin]

it will either break the game or be successful while changing its audience completely

[dusky surge]

how will it "change the audience completely"

what, everyone who currently enjoys it is gonna leave because there's people now?

[near basin]

Because now it includes the human aspect of things. and guns.

That's going to bring an entirely new audience and probably overshadow the current one. I'm a firm believer of this game exploding if they manage to balance and finish humans

[near basin]

No, homie, I'm just theorizing that the new audiences might overshadow the current one

Large extreme changes to a game, obviously affects the audience - whether it's in a good or bad way, homie. Common sense

The real issue here is how the hell are they going to find a balance between
A - Humans being broken due to zergs
B- Humans being too restricted & not fun

[dusky surge]

honestly humans will be more fun if they are heavily restricted

that's how i'd see them as most enjoyable

they're supposed to be the horror mode

[near basin]

we already know they're going to be restricted but if they're so restricted that zergs (ecosystem killers) can't exist, it becomes 'too' restricted

[dusky surge]

what?

[near basin]

the human experience won't be so human if you can't do simple things like store & collect a bunch of loot etc

[dusky surge]

i mean... you have to collect that loot first and not die

[near basin]

inevitable, some groups of people will get very good at doing that

[neon willow]

That's what I think too. Honestly, give them something to actually do (like explore why the AE labs were abandoned and what has happened since) and they could have an incredibly fun pvp horror/survival/investigation game

[near basin]

The problem comes with very good human players, that's where it's hard to balance it

[dusky surge]

they're slower than a stego

and more frail than a beipi

[near basin]

ok and? They will be able to shelter themselves and inevitably become a very strong group
with the right players ofc

they're glass cannons, doesn't matter how frail rhey are

[dusky surge]

and there's going to be dinosaurs which are walking EMPs, and animals that will be able to break into these bases

[near basin]

You're underrestimating zergs

[dusky surge]

I don't even know what you mean by zerg so I guess so

I also underestimate Terrans I guess idk

[near basin]

zerg = laaarge number of humans coordinating in 1 group

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/bowling-strike-gif-11504736

One carno charge

Or a herrera pounce

[near basin]

You're so intelligent it's mindboggling!

[near basin]

Not as in 15 humans huddling up and walking around in the woods. More so playing the game properly

Occasionally roaming outside their base, collecting loot, return & store the said loot. repeat

it's inevitable they will get to a point where they can just ruin the ecosystem

[dusky surge]

They'd have to travel a great distance to get said loot, and that base is only so safe due to how generators work

And again, slower than stego

Also basically have to make it there before nightfall because humans are basically blind at night and easy pickings

[near basin]

Does not matter how difficult it is to get the loot. The good players will inevitably have a consistent way of doing it

[dusky surge]

It does matter because if it were easy then that'd be a problem, and if said consistent way of doing it is consistently risky, then I don't see the issue

Strategies inevitably will exist, as they have with every single game, I fail to see how that makes The Isle humans problematic

[near basin]

Adding humans is combining 2 completely different playstyles/games into one. both of which not being compatible with each other, therefore hard to balance

[dusky surge]

If the argument falls inherently on "humans will ruin the game because I think they will", it doesn't really hold much weight

[near basin]

that kind of strategy in this game will be an ecosystem killer

[dusky surge]

That's literally the definition of an asymmetric, and this game is no stranger to combining different playstyles, it's literally the basis of the entire game

[near basin]

If that's what you gather, you're just not reading

[dusky surge]

Based on what metric? You just saying it will kill the ecosystem doesn't make it true

[near basin]

Humans vs dinos in the isle is not equivalent to a normal asym game

[steep gazelle]

The game has long since ceased to be a horror simulator where humans live with dinosaurs, humans are now nothing more than a meme part of the game. It's a game where you spend hours and hours, And I don't see any way a human with a fire guns fits into this.

[dusky surge]

Machine gun? What?

[steep gazelle]

Mutated creatures are a good addition to the game

[near basin]

A zerg having a large amount of guns and kits in storage, and a consistent strategy of getting them (assuming there aren't restrictions to prevent that apart from it being hard to do)

Are you saying this is not an ecosystem-killing scenario?

[steep gazelle]

Fire gun*

[dusky surge]

Fire gun????

[near basin]

If you just compared humans in the isle to normal asymm games, you're a troll

[dusky surge]

What

[near basin]

No asym game out there has one of the sides taking hours to grow

[dusky surge]

No, obviously not, but it has the same ideals of "two different playstyles at once"

[steep gazelle]

Firearm, that shoots, you know? It exists in movies and games

[dusky surge]

Who the hell calls them fire guns

[near basin]

That's not what this is. It's not just a different playstyle, it's 2 completely different dimensions of gaming. It's combining 2 games into one

[steep gazelle]

Eu

Me

I

[dusky surge]

So put in preventative measures to stop this? Like all of this hinges on this working out exactly like this and the humans not getting obliterated with their 85HP

[near basin]

As you say, strategies will develop and zergs will get access to large amounts of gear as long as it's possible

[steep gazelle]

You act like it's completely impossible to understand what a "fire gun" is man xd

[dusky surge]

And dinosaurs will develop their own strategies to kill/hunt humans

Unless the dinosaurs just aren't the strategising type for some reason

[dusky surge]

I assumed you were talking about a flamethrower

Because it's a gun that shoots fire

Fire gun

[steep gazelle]

Guns = Weapon
Fire= fire

Firearms or fire guns, there is not much difference

If I wanted to say flamethrower would have said flamethrower, This one is different

[neon willow]

I'm guessing as you said EU there may be a language barrier, because fire guns sounds awkward to native speakers (it's not a contraction we would normally make), and it gets interpreted as flame gun ie flamethrower or napalm cannon or similar when fire isn't being used as a verb

[dusky surge]

Anyway, point is, this entire idea hinges on

A: Humans having a completely safe way to obtain high-level weaponry (and ammo) easily and consistently
B: Humans having complete safety within structures that no dinosaur can penetrate, allowing them to consistently accrue said items in large stacks
C: Dinosaurs being incapable of formulating their own strategies via their unique tools to counter these humans strategies
D: Each human in this massive group having enough loot to comfortably share amongst themselves
E: No other human that just shoots down the other humans because he decides he also wants the loot but more
F: Humans not being inherently the most vulnerable creature in the game with poor speed, poor health, no mobility tools, forced first person, and a literal flash, sound and scent to whenever they use their best weapons

Which I feel all these things go against the idea of The Isle as a whole

[steep gazelle]

Dude, it's not like it's impossible to understand what a "fire gun" is, Even though it's not very common or the "right" thing

[dusky surge]

I have never heard anyone refer to a gun as a "fire gun" so I naturally assumed you meant a flamethrower

[neon willow]

No, it's not impossible, but most people who speak English will interpret it like @dusky surge did. A gun that shoots fire. Not a normal bullet gun

Sorry for the pings 😅

It doesn't matter that much. We understand what you mean now after clarifying that you mean firearm. It just sounds weird in English

Actually it would be cool if humans got other arms like a machete or a spear or something

[cedar jacinth]

Everyone comes here to talk. Whats with the no pinging fear in this community lol?

[viscid mica]

@near basin the devs have stated many times guns would be INCREDIBLY rare let alone the ammo LET ALONE STRONG ONES

[near basin]

already addressed this homie

[viscid mica]

Im not reading the 50+ messages in this chat

I would say maybe stop doom posting in suggestion

[near basin]

i'm not interacting with already brought up baits

[viscid mica]

Guns are so far out it’s not something to be concerned about yet

[viscid mica]

How can it be bait if I don’t know what was already discussed?

[near basin]

guns and humans are something that will change the entire game and alter the audience, it's important no matter how far awway we are from it

[viscid mica]

Yes but it’s not a balancing concern quite yet

More of a general discussion/suggestion

Tbh I fully agree with the concern around guns I just don’t see the point talking about it in balancing discuss at this time

[near basin]

A: It will obviously be hard to achieve guns & ammo, but it's inevitable that zergs will at some point get a hold of them in large numbers (unless held back by mechanics like mentioned by andi)
B: Nope. Dinos will likely penetrate their bases to some degree, but won't be a large problem for zergs.
C: Sure dinos can intercept humans that are out looking for loot. Not a problem for zergs
D: Yeah, zerg
E: Humans will definitely battle each other but again, zerg.
F: Doesn't matter, guns

[near basin]

It's a stupendously large concern as it will alter the audience as we know it, and change the game

[viscid mica]

Yes and humans are likely to be one of the very last or later things done, plus again not balancing at this time

[dusky surge]

Saying "zerg" or "gun" doesn't really seem to be a convincing argument. Just a buzzword

[near basin]

not very last, but later yeah

[viscid mica]

Never said very last specifically but certainly close

[near basin]

A large amount of players that have access to kits with guns is self explanatory

[dusky surge]

But they need to go out and get those guns

More players doesn't magically magnetise guns to your location

[viscid mica]

Actually it magnetizes more Dino players

Free food

Like think about stego run and realize humans will likely be slower

[dusky surge]

A single herrera/carno can entirely disrupt a large group of humans

[viscid mica]

Bro a carno could delete entire groups if they ain’t equipped with something high power

[near basin]

Your whole belief here is dependant on the devs making the humans so impractical that they can't even function

[dusky surge]

???

How would that be the case

Humans have advantages outside of guns which devs can (and should) work with

[viscid mica]

How?

[dusky surge]

Stealth due to proning, non-lethal deterrants/repellants, vehicles, so on

If you build humans only around the idea of guns, not only is that more boring and less scary, but it just isn't balanced

[viscid mica]

Humans will survive off stealth, communication beyond what dinosaurs can do, vehicles, bases, traps etc etc etc

Human gameplay similar to that of rust

[viscid mica]

I mean humans are only slightly taller than troodons they can hide pretty dam easy

[dusky surge]

I mean, Rust, except if the bears were 10x bigger, 10x smarter and 10x more common

[viscid mica]

Real

[dusky surge]

Also you can't even build your own bases like you can in Rust

[viscid mica]

I don’t see how humans would be impractical simply because they are slower than animals and need guns to hunt them?

[dusky surge]

You have to go between large swaths of dangerous terrain without proper security to get new loot or a new place to live

[near basin]

are you talking to yourself? that's not what i said

[viscid mica]

Like most Dino’s over 1T got hide comparable to rhinos so they’d be pretty set against anything short of hunting rifles and above

[near basin]

impractical in the sense of it being impossible to gather a large stash of loot in a zerg

[viscid mica]

You haven’t said anything so I created a talking point as I’m confused by your comment

[viscid mica]

How is that impractical?

Wanting guns and specific ammo to be rare and dangerous to go out and collect ?

[near basin]

Lol I have, but you dipped into this mid convo and now are acting surprised you're confused

[viscid mica]

Simply having40 people won’t make collecting easier

[near basin]

No, again you're talking to yourself

[near basin]

That's objectively false

[viscid mica]

More people easier to notice easier to kill

[near basin]

Not like you're moving in a large group of 40 people

[viscid mica]

Not like 40 people traveling around the map would go unnoticed

[near basin]

You're making up an incredibly smoothbrained scenario

[viscid mica]

Like if you’ve ever played rust you know when there is a Zerg it ain’t some big secret it’s very obvious

[near basin]

A zerg in this game isn't going to do that. It would be easier to collect loot in the sense of the group splitting up and collecting from different parts of the map

not 1 big group of meat walking around

[dusky surge]

Isn't the smoothbrained scenario putting in ALL this effort to get all these guns in one spot, shoot one raptor, then everyone can hear/smell you and knows exactly where you are and can decide to avoid you

[near basin]

That's never the situation I described, you're talking 2 yourself

[near basin]

In fact, show me where you got this from
Go refer to a message where you extracted this info from

[dusky surge]

Isn't that the EXACT situation you've been complaining about? People working together to collect a lot of loot then stockpiling it so they've got a lot of firepower?

[viscid mica]

Ya but your assuming people ain’t gonna start asking questions in channels about the abnormally large amount of human players

[near basin]

@viscid mica eventually huddling up the loot in their storages and now that they have access to it, can wipe hours of growth time with a click

[dusky surge]

"Humans will have bases, and ways to store equipment.
As they huddle up, with the power of numbers - they can gather A LOT of equipment.

What is going to happen when the game meets a challenge like this?

Would be a shame to grow an omniraptor for 1h30m just to your pack onetapped by python revolvers. "

[viscid mica]

Asking questions and creating a scenario to try and better understand wha you mean isn’t talking to ourselves

[dusky surge]

This necessitates the idea that guns are all one-taps on even the game's largest animals

[viscid mica]

I mean, how will they catch Dino’s?

They’ll be faster and have far more traversal capacity

And any smart player would know to avoid the 40 man team XD

[near basin]

the scenario of dozens of humans walking around in the same vicinity is something you yourself (and the other dude) proposed and described

that was not extracted from any of my messages and you @dusky surge still haven't showed me where you got that from lol

[near basin]

aim

again underrestimating the power of zergs and players who are familiar with aim

[viscid mica]

Zerg won’t be that strong without being in groups of AT MINIMUM 5

[viscid mica]

Average cod 2 player is not hitting a weaving omni let alone stuff that can run faster than most of their vehicles or any other option of escape

[dusky surge]

I mean to me it seems like you're the one hyping zergs up based on a playable you haven't actually played

[near basin]

The 40 zerg group won't be walking around all gathered in formation

They'll have a base, and be lethal by strategically using their resources

[dusky surge]

but you can just not go near that base if you hear nothing but repeated gunfire from it

[viscid mica]

And Dino’s will be able to strategically avoid them

Like no shot devs make vehicles so insanely op that they are that much faster than Dino’s and can easily catch them

[near basin]

you don't have to "try" or "Play" it in order to predict the outcome

Just like i don't have to play first person with omni in order to conclude that it shouldn't be in the game

[viscid mica]

Especially in forested areas

[dusky surge]

good thing they never have considered adding first person to omni lmao

[near basin]

having to stay kilometers away from a base is just proving my point to humans being too strong

[viscid mica]

Can I pause and quickly address that last statement why shouldn’t omni be in the game?

[viscid mica]

Using a 40 man team is your example is not very good

[near basin]

i was just showing you how ridiculous your sentence was

also was referring to the semi-first person that dondi proposed

[dusky surge]

if you let them acquire SO MUCH WEAPONRY that they get to make an exclusion zone, that's somewhat on everyone else for turning a blind eye

[dusky surge]

it wasn't even first person lol

[viscid mica]

Like what about 40 man Omni or 40 dilos or 40 ceras

[near basin]

which is why i said semi-first person buddy

[dusky surge]

that's not a thing

[near basin]

y'all are the ones that brought up "40", i was talking off of your own example

by "semi" you can obviously comprehend that it's not fully first person

i'll make it more pleasant for you to comprehend next time, include a screenshot even

[dusky surge]

if it's not first person, then it's not first person lol

there's no magic semi-first person

it's either first person or it isn't

[near basin]

fallacy, and unintelligent example

ceras and omnis have growth time, humans supposedly won't

[near basin]

40 where?

[viscid mica]

Actually I never mentioned zergs until it was brought up by you

[viscid mica]

Zerg

You do know what Zerg means right?

[near basin]

This whole conversation is based on zerg. zerg does not mean 40 you actual specimen

[dusky surge]

because humans literally spawn in weaker than some juvis

[viscid mica]

How many is a Zerg

[dusky surge]

like they have no speed and no health

they're effectively scaled the same as a juvi

[near basin]

Zerg is a large group. Not a specific number.

@viscid mica go show me where i said 40 go on

[viscid mica]

Why are you stuck on 40?

[near basin]

Y'all said 40 not me, i just kept on w it

[dusky surge]

stop fixating on a random number brother

[viscid mica]

It’s a example number of what the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE would class as a Zerg

[dusky surge]

it's not a good look to devolve your argument to a single "gotcha" on an arbitrary number

[near basin]

You brought an example and I did the courtesy of going off of it lol

[near basin]

you both have now implied i said things that i didn't

anyway the number isn't important, 20 30 40 whatever this is about zergs

[viscid mica]

Aight im your mind pick a number of humans rn that you think would be too oppressive

[dusky surge]

it isn't important, exactly

[near basin]

it's not the number that's a problem, it's what they're capable of if not held back by mechanics

[viscid mica]

A troodon is capable of killing everything in the roaster if they got enough time and skill what’s your point

[near basin]

even a coordinated 5man can turn out super broken if they manage to get a hold of a very good stash

(despite it being hard)

unless of course, guns are unrealistically weak and an omni can tank 5 shots to the head

[dusky surge]

Why an omni?

[viscid mica]

I mean what 9mm finna really do?

[near basin]

ok homie, dilo

[dusky surge]

Depends on the weapon too

[viscid mica]

Ya like

[near basin]

how many times do you think you'll have to shoot a tiger's skull with a 9mm to kill it?

[viscid mica]

Calibre damage will scale with hitboxes and damage

[viscid mica]

At what range?

[near basin]

crazy

[viscid mica]

What kinda 9mm we talking pistol or smg?

[dusky surge]

It doesn't matter because these are all fictional depictions of animals, or flat out fictional animals

Guns can be balanced to any degree seen fit

[viscid mica]

What type of round?

These all matter

[dusky surge]

ChatGPT lol

[viscid mica]

If we wanna get specific at 50m with a glock 17 you are not even gonna kill let alone consistently hit

[viscid mica]

Ah yes so THE PERFECT SHOT

[dusky surge]

Gen 2 aren't even going to be balanced around hunting/killing dinosaurs, they have a plethora of tools to avoid that in the first place, so I would assume their access to significantly lethal tools would represent that

[viscid mica]

because everyone is in faze clan out here

[near basin]

Do you really think a 9mm won't penetrate the skull if just hitting the tiger directly?

[viscid mica]

Yes

[dusky surge]

Sir this is a video game, the tiger will take as many bullets as the devs want it to take

[near basin]

again, this is why i'm discrediting you as you joined the conversation mid convo and know nothing

this is about competent coordinated zergs, not noobs

[viscid mica]

Brother 9mm from a pistol for example can’t even pen a elks skull over 50meters

[near basin]

his question i'm answering to was based off realism

[viscid mica]

I hunt trust me it takes a solid round to punch bone above point blank

[near basin]

are you comparing an elk's skull to a tiger's ?

[viscid mica]

Let alone land the shot

[viscid mica]

No im saying its weaker

Would you compare moose skull to a tiger?

Cuz there are videos of moose eating 9mm at point blank and shrugging it off no actual penetration

[near basin]

I brought up a tiger and now suddenly you're on about an elk

That's a moose not a tiger

[viscid mica]

I used a animal

One with significantly weaker bones

One I have experience with

[near basin]

Animals differentiate when it comes to thickness in thier skulls

[viscid mica]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

Does it matter? They're literally both animals, and he has experience hunting elk

It's literally a comparison based on experience

[near basin]

Yeah so your example there is mildly irrelevant

[viscid mica]

Bro Dino’s are reptilian in many ways they are gonna have way stronger hide and bones than most animals we know today

Use kamodo dragon as a example or even current crocodiles

[dusky surge]

And even then, realism aside, the game is a game. It'll be balanced around the idea of "hey this would be unfun if..."

[viscid mica]

And a tiger wasn’t?

[dusky surge]

True tho lol

[viscid mica]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

Tiger is relevant to dinosaur, elk is irrelevant to tiger

lmao

[near basin]

Yeah speaking of games

Adding humans to evrima is combining 2 different games into 1. and these 2 games are not compatible

[dusky surge]

They're both survival games

They're both PvP oriented

[near basin]

and btw not comparable to asymms @dusky surge absolute virus of a comparison

[viscid mica]

I just used elk cuz I’ve hunted them and know what it takes to break them bones

[near basin]

this is not primal carnage

[viscid mica]

But they can be and are if done right

[hasty coyote]

From what I have been seeing, the crux of the problem is that a large group of humans will be a serious threat to the ecosystem. Which yeah, will be true. However guns are LOUD and if you hear multiple heavy weapons being shot, you’re generally just going to avoid that area. Additionally, a large group of anything is going to be a major threat. 10 humans can grind for enough ammo to shred an apex and then just shoot it. But you can get 10 omnis, dilos, ceras, allos, diablos, stegos or pretty much any Dino with combat potential thats relatively easy to grow and do the same.

[dusky surge]

Absolutely comparable to asymms. Not traditional asymms, but 100% comparable. The entire game is built on asymmetry, that's why I like it

But I don't think you're a fan of any comparison that isn't your own so

[viscid mica]

I brought this up and he ignored it

[near basin]

yeah very true. Difference here though is that 10 omnis take hours to grow.

while a human can just respawn upon death, go to their base and retrieve a gun that their comrade has collected

[viscid mica]

Who said it’ll be that simple?

[near basin]

Nope not comparable, this ain't PC

[viscid mica]

We don’t know that stuff

[dusky surge]

Never said it was, you're the one who started bringing up PC

[viscid mica]

PC?

[dusky surge]

Primal Carnage

[viscid mica]

Ah

[near basin]

I'm not making a point out of pc, i'm just reminding you that the isle is a different game on the steam page. humans in this / = / asymm

it's like you're comparing ti to dbd

it's not as simple as "it'll be asymm"

[dusky surge]

This is inherently an asymmetric survival by metrics of different animals having vastly different playstyles and mechanics. It is not a traditional survival as in traditional survival, pretty much all players are on equal footing in terms of base stats

[near basin]

1 part of the game is growing things that take hours
the other part is a human that loots stuff

[dusky surge]

Humans add more to the asymmetry, but it's nothing this game hasn't already been doing

[viscid mica]

This

[viscid mica]

And you think looting for the guns will he that simple? I brought this concern and was shot down by the devs themselves noting that guns, ammo and all that jazz will be far harder to come across than expected plus like Dino not all guns are created equally

[dusky surge]

Also, at the end of the day, disabled human servers will inevitably exist, free of the hypothetical zerg

[viscid mica]

The same amount of time it takes to grow a Rex could very well be how long it takes to find a gun capable of even killing a Rex

[viscid mica]

Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority are free of humans

[dusky surge]

I'm personally excited for humans, me like the idea of the horror/proxy chat gameplay it provides

[viscid mica]

So long as dinos can hear humans talking I’m so down

I wish to hear them scream

[dusky surge]

You can hear them, just not understand them

Fine by me, as long as I can hear when they get loud

[viscid mica]

Maybe give it a muffler/distorted effect?

[dusky surge]

It'll be static apparently. Like radio static

But audible

[viscid mica]

Lame

[dusky surge]

Who knows, maybe there'll be a mutation to understand them

We had a mutation to read human text at one point

[viscid mica]

Omg yes

Tbh I have a feeling playing humans will play a part in getting a chance at playing H types

[dusky surge]

Eh, idk about that

I do wanna see how they do strains in general tho

[hasty coyote]

But how long did it take to get that gun? If it takes as much or more time to acquire a gun with ammo as it takes to grow a Dino of the same power, I don’t see an issue. Like make obtaining a small pistol for tiny tiers take like 30 minutes of running around finding parts and ammo to obtain. Make getting a shotgun for smalls take like an hour and a half. Obtaining an assault rifle (and especially enough ammo for it) capable of taking out some medium tiers take like 3 hours.

Also make guns easily destructible for dinos. Got bashed by a pachy? Guess parts of your gun are broken. Got swallowed by a Rex? Guess that gun is gone. Got mobbed by Troodons? Those rats stole your gun parts to make their nests.

[viscid mica]

From what I’ve heard from devs they did mention needing to build certain guns too

So some bigger guns might be in parts

[near basin]

underrestimating aim

how many hours worth of growth do you think an assault rifle and 2 mags is capable of

[viscid mica]

Over estimating aim gamers on mass are not that good

[viscid mica]

Tbh prolly a lot

[near basin]

https://tenor.com/view/wojak-loading-dumb-soyjak-brainlet-gif-5905960021355918533

[viscid mica]

But I doubt a AR and 2 full mags will be easy to get

[viscid mica]

Do you use aim labs?

[near basin]

No

[viscid mica]

Ya figures

[hasty coyote]

Really depends on the weapon and it can be balanced around that fact. I just gave random weapons and time for the concept, it can be balanced around how strong that weapon is.

[near basin]

You use aim labs?

[viscid mica]

Yes sir I’m mid at best

[neon willow]

Eh... if we say each bullet is like... 150-250 damage (2 body shots to kill omni, 1 headshot)... then a gun with that kind of damage and 2 bullets mag should require at least omni grow time level of grind to gather materials. And if your human gets killed, the gun is destroyed or despawned, and you have to re-grind for it. You can scale up from there. So if you want a 10 round mag, you should have to grind 4-5 times as long

[viscid mica]

[near basin]

Smoothb. And again, this is not about the masses. It's about competent zergs

zergs

[viscid mica]

That’s fair but like we’ve said a Zerg of anything is a mountain none can climb

[near basin]

you think no one will be able to make that zerg?

[viscid mica]

No I don’t think anyone could beat a Zerg of any Dino

Human it doesn’t matter what they are you get enough people you can kill anything

Like what you gonna do if a 30 man troodon group pulls up on you?

I can tell you now nothing we wiped that server that day

[neon willow]

there will always be competent zergs. There are omni packs that I have no doubt could take down FG rexes. But I don't think you should balance a game around the 1% who min-max to perfection

[viscid mica]

I’ll agree to that

I prefer basing it your average player capacity

[near basin]

humans with guns is not at all comparable to a competent omnipack in this context

[viscid mica]

How so?

[near basin]

this will be less common than large groups of humans

[neon willow]

I mean there are literal gaming competitions to see who zergs the best and those competitors literally no life those games all day every day. But you don't see COD balanced around those super players

[near basin]

Hey just to remind you, just fyi, an omni is not comparable to a rifle

[viscid mica]

I doubt it

[near basin]

Well your doubt is irrelevant

[viscid mica]

And a rifle isn’t as multipurpose as a omni

[viscid mica]

And your “opinion” that human zergs would be more common is…

[viscid mica]

Plus a rifle isn’t limited by ammo a omni is only limited by time

[near basin]

omni can't do something until it's close to you

omni limited by distance rifle ain't

[viscid mica]

A rifle can only do so much if it can’t see all of you

So I could say they both our

Plus a rifle loses power the farther you are

[neon willow]

You're right. A rifle can break or get lost or destroyed or run out of ammo which will require grinding to replace. An omni will always have attacks and can heal as long as it isn't killed outright

[viscid mica]

And when dealing with super sized reptiles lose of power is detrimental

[near basin]

a rifle can, in your example, kill an omni in 2 shots

[viscid mica]

Too be fair probably one of we talking proper hunting rifles I’ll give you that

[neon willow]

That is true, but I already suggested ways to balance this. Limiting the number of rounds in a clip and forcing long reload times is one way to allow melee focused dinosaurs to close range, as is allowing dinosaurs to use stealth to close on noisy humans

[near basin]

Whst?

[viscid mica]

Simple fix skill training and leveling, you all gotta start somewhere and it adds farther progression to humans

[near basin]

a skill tree resetting on respawn, where you can't use a gun unless you unlocked a point?

[viscid mica]

A 306+ would absolutely delete a omni with a solid hit to the heart or head

[neon willow]

Yes... but if the rifle is a hunting rifle with 2 barrels and no clip, you may kill 1 omni... but what about the rest of its pack. And you will need to grind to replace ammo you use, which is the human equivalent of "regrowing"

[near basin]

this isn't real life homie

[viscid mica]

Not use more like not skillfully use

[viscid mica]

I was giving you brownie points that guns would be strong but I guess I’ll go lay eggs alone

And yes I just made that statement into a Dino reference suck it

[near basin]

suck what?

[viscid mica]

Ngl a good balancing feature could be to put guns in a “wreaked” state if the human is eaten or left unloosed for long enough

[near basin]

<@&933486433342222376>

[dusky surge]

what

[viscid mica]

Nothing lol

LMAO

[dusky surge]

i come back and now we're getting mod pings huh

[viscid mica]

Scroll up a tiny bit

I said suck it and he tilted

Anyways

[green heart]

Everyone be polite

[neon willow]

The only thing differentiating human play and dino play in terms of recuperating losses after a death would be that primarily humans can put in work up front and dinosaurs can't. But honestly... if a human player spent 3 hours grinding in advance to have a second weapon and ammo stashed in their base, and a dinosaur that took 3 hours to grow killed each other... That's still the same amount of time that both spent "growing"

[viscid mica]

They could easily do a experience system where reload speeds and such are affected by it

[viscid mica]

Scroll up and look at what I said ain’t no one doing anything

[green heart]

I saw

[neon willow]

I think that could be neat, and an interesting parallel to the dinosaur mutation system, with similar rules in terms of respawn = start over on the skill tree

[near basin]

it was an inappropriate comment not fit for this server homie

[neon willow]

Especially if human players unlike dinosaurs can't inherit skills

[viscid mica]

Please don’t ping me, if your gonna harass the mods over a completely irrelevant comment not even directed at you we don’t need to talk

[viscid mica]

Ya could force players to repeat doing things to get better at them

[near basin]

Funny part is that you're the one that decided to interact out of nowhere, and then said "i aint reading 50+ msgs" when you were told you took things out of context

homie

[viscid mica]

Better stability when shoot? Gotta shoot more
Better reload?
Keep doing that

Faster run more weight etc etc

[neon willow]

As in, gotta shoot lots of times to get better damage from your firearms, gotta repair lots of times to become efficient at materials? Depends on how its implemented... some systems get kinda dumb on that (looking at you, hidden mut that forces you to jump 40 times before your second mut point unlocks to get stam reduction on jump)

[near basin]

if this resets upon respawning, it'll just be a chore

[viscid mica]

Not as much damage more so gun sway when aiming

[viscid mica]

I mean growing is too so it’s all equal trade for improvements

[potent fox]

Was that changed? Cuz the jumping one definitely works differently now

[neon willow]

I'm not sure. There was a hidden mutation that's useful on Herrera though where you need to jump so many times to unlock it the last time I played Herrera. It reduces stam cost of jumping, which dovetails nicely given Herrera do a LOT of jumping

[potent fox]

I know I use it all the time on herra and even Omni or galli. As far as I know you need 50 jumps and when you do it doesn’t matter. You can even do it after you are full grown if you wait with skilling your last mutation.

It’s not slot 2 exclusive is what I mean

[dusky surge]

@compact cypress HT raptor solves most of those issues, it's incredibly stam efficient

[compact cypress]

ooo

nice

[dusky surge]

a neutral pounce is almost 5x more stam efficient now, it's insane

[tall cypress]

@unreal crystal i tried to rework them can you read pls ?

[unreal crystal]

Yes I saw that

I'm fine with that... I'm also fine if they remove it completely

[tall cypress]

Nah they are Good just needs rework or nerf

[unreal crystal]

Really ruins one of key elements that makes this game stand out from similar competitors which is immersion

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

i agree with reworking them, i dislike the idea of removing options, i just dislike the way you've done it here

they're still meta, just with a different flavour

[tall cypress]

What you offering then ?

All they got Good rn

[dusky surge]

i have a list one sec

#balance-feedback message
#balance-feedback message

[tall cypress]

your Gastronomic regen and mine is same yours just too weak

It would be die

[dusky surge]

i do agree, my gastro is a bit too weak

[tall cypress]

Tactical too

We wrote same thing brota just yours too weak.

[dusky surge]

i think my tact is fine

[tall cypress]

Why nobody likes it xd i think everybody wants dead mutations or meta mutations what a fun.

[dusky surge]

higher than 10% would be really bad imho

[tall cypress]

No %10 is nothing while fighting

[dusky surge]

well that's the idea

it shouldn't be good for fighting, that should not be what the mutations are for

[tall cypress]

Mine is the idea too

What you disliked say me

Then i will fix it

[dusky surge]

i think a 20% stam regen is insanely strong

[tall cypress]

Mate

While fighting you would prob ve lower than 40%

[dusky surge]

your congential rework also seems FAR too strong

stop balancing muts around combat

[tall cypress]

You cant regen stamina anyways while fighting ?

[tall cypress]

Noway xd its weaked

If you playing raptor and a dibble attack you you got 20%

If you are carno and dibble attacks you you got 10%

This is going to balance game

Like think about it you are a 1300kg carno and your opp is 1200 kg cera it would get 15% damage reduction this is too strong

[dusky surge]

congential granting damage resist at all is too strong

it doesnt matter how high it is

[tall cypress]

Then remove it :D

[dusky surge]

or rework it

it doesn't need to be black and white

[tall cypress]

It doesn't always happen as we wish. If the game's producers want to bring this kind of myth, there is nothing to do. We just need to help the balancers.

[tall cypress]

I rework it what are you talking about

[dusky surge]

it still presents the same issues

damage resist just should not be a factor in it

[tall cypress]

İ change it

[tall cypress]

Read that again

Gastronomic Regeneration

Eating restores a small amount of health Removed

Rework: the fuller you are, the faster you regenerate health.

Hunger 0%-100%

Healt regen +0%- 35%

this prevents health regeneration during war
it is no longer a mutation that works during war

[dusky surge]

im fine with that, that's a genuinely good approach

also i think 35% is a very good number, i very much underdid it in my suggestion

[tall cypress]

Okay let s start from begginning

What you disliked which ones

[elfin night]

I read some of them and well

[unreal crystal]

Personally I wouldn't complain if congenital gets removed as long as gastro,tactile etc are removed aswell

[tall cypress]

Guys share your ideas

[elfin night]

Why not just get rid of the entire concept

[dusky surge]

Ehhh

[elfin night]

Remove all combat related mutations, and instead just add more survival ones

[dusky surge]

He's got good ideas, I think it's unfair to say get rid of the entire concept

[tall cypress]

Read that pls

[elfin night]

We also have so little survival muts

[dusky surge]

Rewarding you for keeping your stomach full is inherently far more survival oriented

[unreal crystal]

100%

[elfin night]

We need like 10-15 more

[tall cypress]

Nope this idea is Good just too strong

Fighting is a survival

[elfin night]

Idc, combat mutations create a hard meta

Survival can include fighting but all matchups should be skill reliant and punish bad habits

[unreal crystal]

I like this ... you should feel like you are winning everytime you stay alive

[tall cypress]

No, you're just trying to shift the blame for dying all the time.

[elfin night]

Pffft

[tall cypress]

Xd

[elfin night]

Great argument

[tall cypress]

Sorry but true

Everone can use same mutations

[elfin night]

I am shifting the blame for thinking that it’s cringe speed mutations are a must pick

[tall cypress]

Just NERF strong ones and all is ok

[elfin night]

And that creates a hard meta, thank you for proving my point

[tall cypress]

I killed all speed mutations ?

[elfin night]

Also combat ones

[tall cypress]

Did you read that ?

Also nerfed all of them

[elfin night]

Your tactile and prey drive are pretty bad

Idm some of them

But there’s still some stinkers that are better off gone

Or getting something completely different in their place

[tall cypress]

Whats the "bad" can you say and i fix ?

[elfin night]

Combat oriented mutations are just a defunct concept. All health, speed, stamina or damage oriented buffs are bad because then you’re forced into taking them to stand a chance

[elfin night]

Sure

[tall cypress]

Mate this game is a surviving game not a walking in a forest as a dinasour simulator

[elfin night]

Hypoalgesia still giving extra defense, tactile still giving stamina for getting hit, prey drive giving extra damage

[elfin night]

And I agree

Doesn’t mean that there should be mutations that give you an unwarranted advantage over an opponent just because you picked them because then you create a meta

[tall cypress]

Lets talk about tactical
Can you gain stamina while lower than 40% of stamina you have ?

[elfin night]

Naturally?

[tall cypress]

Nope

[elfin night]

You can’t while trotting afaik

[tall cypress]

While walking

[elfin night]

Maybe walking yeah

[tall cypress]

While fightig

Nope right ?

Its just for after fight mutation

[elfin night]

You should know how to manage your stamina!

[tall cypress]

You cant do that while fighting!!!

Jesus christ

[elfin night]

Exactly, you can’t regen it while fighting

So you gotta make sure it is properly managed

[tall cypress]

Yes and this makes Mine tactical is only for after fight

[elfin night]

Well

[tall cypress]

Right

[elfin night]

I disagree

[tall cypress]

Why

[elfin night]

Because I’m a hater

[tall cypress]

Mate i am tryin to make game better i know you want this too

Lets just help me with that okay ?

[tall cypress]

Hello

[elfin night]

I prefer being the inquisition of bad takes

Devs also know what to do with their game and they’re probably working on something mutation related already

[rapid flume]

god I hope so

[dusky surge]

they are actually, they mentioned it

[tall cypress]

I hope so

[rapid flume]

praying it's not just dedicated slots

[dusky surge]

they already did that, it didn't work

[tall cypress]

I hope they are reading our feedbacks

[elfin night]

They already said they do

[unreal crystal]

I think Ptera would be alot better with grab ability(0.5 its bodyweight). Also, maybe increase the weight to 60Kg.
I just imagine grabbing unaware juvis then dropping them from the sky in a safe to eat spot would be so much fun

[elfin night]

No, no, no,
And no

Full stop

There’s so much cool stuff you could do with ptera and they likely will

Rather than just an eagle pterosaur all over again

[unreal crystal]

Like?

[elfin night]

Save that stuff for Quetz, ptera should be its own thing

[unreal crystal]

Yes I'm sure our grandchildren will have alot of fun with Quetz but what about us?

[elfin night]

not this doomposting again

[rapid flume]

quetz isn't that far away

[unreal crystal]

Well hope you are right Quetz would be really fun

[rapid flume]

I can pretty easily see it in 26/27

[dusky surge]

isnt quetz higher on the list?

[elfin night]

A very terrestrial fisher, who specialized potentially in poking and cc, who also can use short flight in combat for dodges and quick reposition, similar to how crows hunt some land animals

[dusky surge]

ya here

[unreal crystal]

Hmm interesting I wasn't aware they are planning this that's cool

[unreal crystal]

👍

[elfin night]

Not exactly that

[rapid flume]

this is pretty interesting

[elfin night]

I was throwing ideas, but they 100% said they want to make it an efficient land animal who no longer gets rolled by everyone

So maybe it could go and take on a troo or a pair of them could give trouble to a dryo, land herra or larger juveniles while on land

[tall cypress]

Not this year. Next year not Tho. At least 2 year

[rapid flume]

I said 2026 2027

[unreal crystal]

Yes this would be amazing really looking forward to this

[tall cypress]

I hope

[elfin night]

Depends on how they execute it

But honestly quetz sounds far better designed than deino already

If it is not gambling for people or isn’t countered by stupid strategies

[unreal crystal]

Imagine snatching a herra from the tree or cliff edge as a Quetz lol... this game has so much potential

[viscid mica]

Ngl I totally see that

[tall cypress]

Idk what will quetzals abilty but i think quetzal have do to a lot of damage cause of its big beak

[unreal crystal]

I wouldn't want it to be something than can fight on land (maybe defend itself for a short period of time on land against a solo omni).
I think something that can ambush from the sky is what the ecosystem needs

[tall cypress]

Accelerated Prey Drive (Carnivore)

Deal more damage to animals with low health

Value: 10%
100%hp to 20%hp 2.5%dam. to 10%dam

Cellular Regeneration

Recovers health slightly faster

Value: 15% X

5%
15% while sitting

Congenital Hypoalgesia

Reduce incoming damage when fighting larger species

Value: 15% X

Rework: The more your opponent weighs, the less damage you take.

10%more weight to 400%
damage reduce 5%-12.5

Hydro-regenerative

Recover health faster during rainy weather

Value: 25% X

25% in rainy weather
30% in stormy weather

nocturnal

Faster health/locked health recover and higher move speed at night

Value: 5%

speed buff removed

+15% stamina regeneration speed
When running in the evening, footstep sounds decrease by 35%

Photosynthetic Tissue

Faster health/locked health recovery and higher move speed during the day

Value: 5%

speed buff removed
+12.5% stamina recovery speed

reabsorption

Recover a small amount of water during the rainy weather or while swimming in drinkable water

Value: 1 X

Rework: As long as it rains, your thirst won't decrease

Tactile Endurance (Herbivore)

Convert incoming damage to stamina
Lower heal more stamina regen

hp 100% to 1%
stamina regen +1% -30%

Gastronomic Regeneration

Eating restores a small amount of health Removed

Rework: the fuller you are, the faster you regenerate health.

Hunger 0%-100%

Healt regen +0%- 20%

Instead of just putting emojis, can't you share your ideas as well? This way I can fix it.

[neon willow]

For reabsorption just make it so that it halts water drain instead of restoring it

[tall cypress]

That make sense

Good idea

[neon willow]

If you actually want to increase water you should have to drink

For tactile... I haven't thought about it enough to see if it is a good idea or not - it could still be broken. But an idea I had is what if it reduces stamina drain when grappled?

That could potentially still be broken as it's still very much a combat mutation that affects grappling play though

Ideally it should just be removed

[tall cypress]

while fighting, your stamina probably drops below 40%, right?
and if you don't sit down while your stamina is at this level, it doesn't regenerate
which makes stamina regeneration only available after combat, so tactical endurance is no longer a combat mutation

[neon willow]

Eh... That's heavily dependent on the dinosaur, as well as assuming players can't conserve stamina or take breaks from combat. It's very normal for group members to guard others against a rock while they sit and heal

Honestly I'd prefer getting rid of tactile, and keeping the stamina regen idea of photo and nocturnal

[tall cypress]

we can't do anything to change this

[tall cypress]

Me too

[neon willow]

Agreed. But if we're assuming that mutations can be changed, then they should be designed for the way players actually play. And players actually camp rocks and guard so their friend can sit down in combat to heal bleed and stamina

Otherwise we just replaced a meta mutation with another meta mutation

[tall cypress]

So what if it only gets stamina regeneration while it's bleeding? This way, the bleeding will stop while it's sitting, so the stamina regeneration will also stop

[neon willow]

That still is kinda broken because bleed is already tied to stamina regen

[tall cypress]

Only after taking damage for a 30 second?

During 30 sec

Stamina regen lasts 30 second after damage

This will work :D

I mean getting rid out of a mutation is kinda sad for its developers

[neon willow]

Then it is abusable by picking a small bleeder to keep bleed/damage on without doing real damage

[tall cypress]

Every time you lose 10% health you gain stamina regen for 15 seconds.

[neon willow]

It is... But getting rid of a mutation makes room for other mutations! Like imagine mutations that allow a teno to dive and eat aquatic plants? There are other ideas that affect gameplay in more interesting ways without being unfair in combat

[tall cypress]

No i dont want to see diver teno while playing beipi

[neon willow]

This is just og tactile with modified numbers... Tactile I think just really doesn't work. Herbi attack stam costs should just be adjusted so that they're viable without requiring a mutation

[neon willow]

Why?

[tall cypress]

Developer have to do ankther animation for that

Extra work means extra time

Extra time means no REX and allo :D

Other mutation ideas ok for you ?

Like i tried to change near 10

All of them are ok ?

[neon willow]

A lot of them seem OP/META still, but I'd have to sit on it to try to think of something that would work better. I mentioned the ones I had specific ideas for

[tall cypress]

Whic ones bad ?

[steep gazelle]

@topaz elm I don't agree. There's already a mechanic for reduced damage when hitting the tail and making it more likely for some than for others is kind of pointless even if it's realistic.

The current damage system is fine, the real problem is the desync

[topaz elm]

The 25% damage reduction doesn’t really make sense when there isn’t anything to hit there

a stego tail swing is still doing what 750 damage to Omni, pachy and troodon even if they touch the tip of the tail

It just feels a little unfair when things can hit the tip of your tail and still do so much damage

One of the reasons carno’s charge is so annoying to deal with too

[golden coral]

Isn't the tip something like 10% or even less of the damage?

[steep gazelle]

It's not a 25% reduction, it's more than 80%

What happens is that the server usually records hits in the body because of desync

[golden coral]

25% might be on the base of the tail or some such

[neon willow]

I mean... Rex has something like 900 animations? I don't think adding a subset for teno would be catastrophic for their workload. Also, they don't need to stop everything they're currently working on to add teno dive. They can work on it after rex and allo are released. Plus, there are other existing dinos with work being put into missing mechanics (ptera/hypsi/dryo)

[neon willow]

25% reduction is base of tail; tail tip is much higher reduction. I don't know the percentage, but I know an Omni (450 HP) can survive a stego swing (1000 DMG) on a true tail tip hit, so it's at LEAST >50% reduction

But yeah... It's usually desynchronization. The server thinks you're closer to the enemy than what is displayed locally on your screen, so the server's hit calculations determine it's a body hit and do damage calculations accordingly (no damage reduction), all while locally it appears like it's a tail tip hit that didn't get any damage reduction

[cedar jacinth]

Yea but given the mutations that are currently in the game I doubt we would get anything cool like that.

[hasty coyote]

Reg stego swing deals 1200, power swing deals 1800

[neon willow]

Was that changed at some point? Last time I survived a stego hit where I was an Omni was a while ago

[hasty coyote]

you can still tank it to the tail tip (its like 10% damage so only 180 even with power swing), just that your numbers were slightly off👍

[dreamy gulch]

@near basin , just dont try to peck a group of omnis> and if one omni pounces on u u can just fly off wiht hte omni yk?

[near basin]

2 omnis can sneak up on you

the second part tho, yeah if it's able to

[neon willow]

Id say that quetz should take longer to grow for its weight than other dinosaurs because it can fly out of range of most other creatures.

[dreamy gulch]

Yea so mayve either rest in open spaces ore somewhere where omnis cant reach u.

[neon willow]

Kinda like how Herrera for a while was relatively slow growing for its size because again, it is out of reach of most of the roster most of the time

And yeah - if you allow a pair of omnis to sneak close enough to pin you, that's kinda the definition of a skill issue. Nothing should be able to get away with major lapses in situational awareness like letting deadly predators get an ambush on you

[near basin]

Quetz isn't going to be on top of a mountain 24/7 you absolute genius

It's going to land occasionally to hunt juvies etc

[near basin]

That's the same as saying if you're a stego and allow 8 omnis to "sneak up on you", it'a a skill issue

No it's not a skill issue, it's something that is inevitable if omnis see you

at the right time ofc

Quetz is a 5 meter tall giant, people will see it from a mile away as it stands up on ground.
Let alone seeing it whoosh in the sky and land somewhere

[neon willow]

That's not equivalent because stego is slower than Omni and therefore is forced to let Omni control the encounter, and because quetzal can literally fly and therefore it can choose to entirely avoid combat with omnis if it wants.

[glossy elbow]

@near basin why is it a bad thing to let quetz get pinned by 2 omnis?

[tall cypress]

You def right

[neon willow]

No different than a Herrera choosing not to climb a tree when it sees omnis coming is a skill issue.

[tall cypress]

Like i mean i am 75kg and i can Carry a 100 kg Man in my shoulder.
4 handed dinos like trike or dibble should be able to carry their 1.5x weights tbh
Same as quetzal

[near basin]

It becomes badder the more time it takes to grow

if quetz takes 2h, then sure let it get pinned by 2 omnis

[near basin]

you think quetz will be faster than omni on ground?

[tall cypress]

Maks 24 km

[tall cypress]

This is not about running quetzal needs to Hunt too

[near basin]

Except the fact that there are a plethora of scenarios where the herra can't see the omnis

& the quetz

There are several ways for omnis to disguise themselves, which makes it inevitable for them to catch up to the quetz in many scenarios

therefore 2 shouldn't be enough to pin 1, depending on the growth time of quetz

[near basin]

It's extremely equivalent

Quetz is slower than omni too, unless it takes off. Some scenarios will make it inevitable for omnis to catch up to the quetz before it's able to take off, so should 2 omnis really be enough if the growth time is 4+ hours?

[potent fox]

They will think about something. Realistically it’s gonna weigh less than 900kg for sure so it will either be able to escape raptors or have a special interaction with them. Whichever it is I doubt it’s something they won’t consider

[near basin]

Supposedly, it'll be able to fly off with a galli, and if we assume the one in the concept art is an adult (gallis weigh 425kg), that would mean quetz would have to weigh around 850kg, which is heavier than an adult dilophosaurus by over 100kg.

But if it does weigh less than 850, it stands to reason that The Isle's quetz might have a higher weight threshold than the standard value (50%) to be able to carry animals away.

[neon willow]

I go back to the herrera example. It is the responsibility of the Herrera to make sure it knows where threats to it are when it is on the ground. If it fails at that, then yes, it will be killed by omnis because it didn't identify the danger in time. If it notices them and escapes to a tree, it lives. That's the definition of a skill issue. I've never died to a dino on Herrera that I didn't see that wasn't my own fault for not noticing them.

The same is true for quetz, except instead of trees for safety it should be flying. Quetz though will likely have an easier time seeing predators approaching due to the higher vantage point of its camera

[potent fox]

I also think they will make it heavier than it actually was but they won’t go above 1 ton I would assume. It’s definitely gonna be hard to hit effectively for small creatures aswell and probably take reduced dmg on wings so it doesn’t die fast to normal dmg

[near basin]

If you fly above ground, and land somewhere where you can't see anything but a juvie in sight - and 2 omnis suddenly emerge from inside a bush that you COULD not have noticed, that's not a skill issue. This is your fallacy, I already explained it to you

There are scenarios with omnis that can't be blamed on the quetz itself

[neon willow]

Sure. I kinda imagine quetzal as almost an amphibious creature though - spending just as much time in the air as on the ground. Based on the concept art I wouldn't be surprised if quetzal ambushes from the sky - swooping down from above, snatching something in a devastating blow, and then popping right back into the air to avoid becoming prey itself

Again... Much like herrera

Pounce from above, followed by mad scramble to safety to avoid retribution from the dead player's packmates

[near basin]

nope. a herra is in the tree and has been in that area for a long time, it got to that tree by terrestrial means.

a quetz travels in a completely different way, which makes it easier to ambush

[neon willow]

Bushes make a lot of noise now though when players hide in them, and also you REALLY shouldn't land right next to a bush you aren't 100% sure is empty. I've been ambushed by carnos from bushes back in Spiro (1800 carno) because I stopped right next to a bush I didn't know was empty, and yeah I died, but it was my fault for standing close enough to a bush to be ambushed

[near basin]

Okay this should be easier

Are you saying that there are 0 possible scenarios where a quetz is unable to trump an omni ambush, without it being a skill issue?

emphasis on 0

[neon willow]

I am saying that there are zero possible scenarios where a quetzal is unable to avoid an Omni ambush by playing smart. All omni ambush encounters are avoidable if the quetzal doesn't do something stupid.

Defining stupid here as walking into a confined space or not properly conserving stamina so that it can't take off, not keeping an eagle eye on your surroundings to see when the aforementioned omnis are sneaking bush to bush to close range, trusting that apparently abandoned bodies next to bushes or river banks are not traps, and assuming a bush you haven't observed for a while is guaranteed empty

Essentially, if the quetzal doesn't put itself into a bad situation, the onnis really shouldn't have much chance to catch it.

[near basin]

Cool. Anyway, as you know, the devs don't balance things around the 1% of top players, and should not

More often than not, like overwhelmingly more often than not, players will not be as cautious as you describe in the entirety of their 6 or so hours of life

every single second

So should 2 omnis body a quetz? I don't know, depends on how long quetz takes to grow

[neon willow]

Yes... And they'll die occasionally because of it. Just like Herreras and most other animals on the roster when they mess up

[neon willow]

I'm not sure about this either, actually. I don't think quetzal should be as long of a grow as apexes or even pseudo apexes like deino or stego for sure

[near basin]

yeah i don't either but if itt akes something like 2h, it grows stupidly fast

in terms of how big it looks

[neon willow]

But say we ballpark it and say quetz = 2x Omni weight. Because it can fly, it should probably be more than 2x Omni growth, but probably not 3x Omni growth

@near basin out of curiosity, can you recall off the top of your head what weight and grow time is for Herrera and ptera?

[steep gazelle]

Quetzal will probably be a terrible playable character precisely because of this issue

And, well, seeing the current state of the ptera, the quetzal will have horrible stamina and a much longer growth time for its weight

The best way is to see how it will be when it is released, but I really have no hope of it being good and fair both to itself and to others

[haughty grotto]

You cannot carry a 100 kg man in your mouth and fly away supporting that weight, mister
It's utterly nonsensical to allow quetz to carry anything above 100kg
I'm assuming quetz will be around 500-600kg but even that is a big overestimation because it's extremely difficult to fly with such a heavy body (it's bone structure is hollow and as lightweight as possible to support flight).

Whatever weight you think quetz should be carrying, imagine that the only thing supporting it is a long narrow beak and a slender weak neck

I'm pretty sure quetz will be oneshotting things that are small enough to be carried anyway
Anything alive could wriggle out easily

[golden coral]

@trail hawk It kind of works like you describe already, just look at trike. Proper tank, does less damage than stego. Stego is less of a tank, thus it does more damage instead.

[trail hawk]

The thing is that I don't see that IG. I really don't know the stats of those two, but I've killed 2 trikes this afternoon and had 0 chance with 2 diferent stego encounters. The 2 with diferent strategys.

1st was with a cera, landing a lot of fully charged bites, I had to retreat because it was a lost cause.

2nd was with a pack of omnis, bleeding him out for 1 and a half hours without a minute for the stego to rest. Nothing.

As I said, I don't really know ig Trike or Stego is more tankier than the other, but one is manageable to kill and the other is plain imposible from my experience

[golden coral]

Well, stego has 6K weight/health, trike has 9,5(?), well, 9+ weight/hp. Stego has a x2 head multiplier, most other things have 1.5, trike has, well I'm not sure, but it's lower than that I'm pretty sure, due to the frill. On top of that, it may be able to decrease that multiplier further with the spar/block, if it has that, like dibble can. And trike "only" does 600 damage (but can do a lot more if it follows up a knockdown with the thrash attack, which does a lot of damage to a downed opponent).

It is possible that trike players are still not very good, due to the playable being new, and HT not always being populated. Whereas now, most stegos you're likely to meet, will be good ones, the ones that play stego because they enjoy the playable

Trike is also more vunerable to flanking attacks and such, unlike stego, whereas stego is more vunerable to things that can take the hit and hit back, as can be seen with dibbles fighting stegos (that and them stunning stego, and then trike just knocking it down)

[trail hawk]

Idk man, maybe it's that, but so far any stegoI encounter have the lifepool of a god.

As I said. It takes that long to bleed out one? Im not exaggerating when in say that I've been one and a half hours bleeding one with a pack of omnis

[golden coral]

No that seems reasonable, it's just that well, now try that with trike and it'll take even longer, with an additional 3K blood pool

[trail hawk]

Lol, nice to know

[tight cove]

@near basin honestly to me if you let yourself get pinned by 2 Omnis as a quetz that’s a skill issue

[dusky surge]

they could just make it possible for quetz to pick things up heavier than it

there's zero rule saying it can't do that

[warm flax]

I wonder how heavy it will be if the dev just simply add numer to it
you still gonna exchange some hits it it hunt on land

I would say a damage reduction like dibble's sparring stance

[dusky surge]

dibble's sparring stance doesn't have that

last i checked, it just lets you strafe

[warm flax]

if it got only like 200-400 hp it is not likely worth spend all that time raising a Quetz imo

[dusky surge]

If it can fly at 120km/hr, I'd say it is

It has the best defense of any apex, not being hittable

it doesn't need HP

[warm flax]

unless it can peck stuff like ptera in mid air which I don't think its gonna happen

the risk is going to be so high that quetz will end up just trying to peck some boar on land

it is not an eagle more like and giant herron or Secretary-bird

[tall cypress]

Where did i say mouth ?

[hasty coyote]

@azure turret concept is good, but those specific changes will just kill dilo
Dilo's base stats are pretty fine, maybe a bite nerf, but reducing it to 500kg AND reducing bite speed just makes it omni fodder, it already has a relatively fair matchup (minus op clone spam) but reducing its hp and damage output by that much just makes omni able to literally face tank it: tank 1-2 bites, pounce its side since it can't turn as fast (especially if you can get it to alt bite), do damage pounce (it has to buck you off since its forced to walk and thus cant scrape), repeat once, and that dilo dies. At least currently it takes 3 pounces to kill, so omni can't just face tank.

Making dilo's clones act based on calls also just makes it even more unintuitive, and much easier to track, especially without footsteps. Also, couldnt you just spawn like 10 clones over the fight and later just send all of them at the target at once to guarantee damage and make it even less interactive? Also making its venom ONLY available at night just makes the dino flat out unviable during the day, because venom is like half of its kit, thats like saying omni can't pounce during the night.

Dilo's issue is that its clones are op since the damage is insane and unavoidable. All dilo needs would be a clone damage nerf, a slower clone recharge but bite=recharge, clones are able to be hit and destroyed BEFORE they deal damage, venom should heal faster, and/or potentially a slight bite damage nerf.

[steep gazelle]

@azure turret I think a good mechanic would be to increase the cooldown for the clones to be cast from 8 to 30, reduce the time the poison remains on the target (as it lasts up to 10 minutes), but make Dilo recover 1 clone bar whenever he hits a bite on the body or head

This would make Dilo forcibly more aggressive, but it also wouldn't make him weak

[hasty coyote]

thats basically what he said in the #general-feedback portion, but then also hit dilo with 5 other nerfs that will just gut it worse than pachy

[steep gazelle]

I don't think Dilo needs exaggerated nerfs like he said, it's just his venom that's poorly done

[hasty coyote]

yeah I agree, the venom is just too strong and needs some limiters

[steep gazelle]

Dilo is basically the easy mode of The Isle xd

[hasty coyote]

Honestly gotta give that to stego. Thing gets strong enough to 1-shot pretty much the whole current roster minus Diablo in like an hour and a half.

[steep gazelle]

Well, stego is at least slow

Dilo is the second fastest

[viscid mica]

@near basin flight, quetz will be fine because of flight. It will be very good at bullying very small things and it’s greatest counter will be trees so I think it’ll be fine

@azure turret all removing damage from clones does is nuke dilos effectiveness in combat it’s really not hard to tell the difference between a player and Ai. Yes dilo is over tuned no the clones doing damage is not the problem

[tall cypress]

Clone per bite is must to do

Otherwise Dilo play style be same as sniper play style

[haughty grotto]

That's exactly my point

Quetz isn't a human being that it can carry stuff on its shoulder not does it have arms to carry out such a task

You can barely carry an apple in your mouth.
Quetz' beak and neck can't support anything more than a tiny baby

[dusky surge]

and this is a game where carno's neck would realistically break if it did the ram, yet it doesn't

[vale brook]

yah i dont know why quetz needs to have that taken into account when we have tree lizard falling from the world trade center

and just brushing it off

[dusky surge]

its so weird that realism gets brought up with quetz specifically

like it doesn't HAVE to be 2x the weight of a galli to pick it up, that rule has no reason to apply to it

[hasty coyote]

Honestly there’s so many ways to balance quetz, I think we just have to wait and see what type of power budget and kit they give to it, and then go from there. If you make it op, ofc it’s gonna be op. If you make it too weak, ofc it’s gonna be too weak.

[worthy steeple]

fair

the only thing i strongly disagree with is making it like 250kg, it would so weird if you could kill it with just one teno kick, or launch it flying into space LOL, it’ll look goofy

unless they give it stability modifier, but even then killing it with one charge bite or one kick would be so weird and unrealistic in a bad way

and i also want it to be mostly terrestrial, capable of defending itself on land and using its flight mechanic only to escape or hunt

[elfin night]

@near basin imma be real with you and throw a truthnuke

if quetz gets pinned it is a genuine skill issue

also no need to make it tanky. It's much easier to balance than you'd think

[pine robin]

Maybe nerf Teno's stun on his back kick a bit? Been killed way too many times just because I (and I've seen others players can't move) can't move after standing up mind you. Only to get knocked down again. In my opion, if teno or any other herbivore gets an instant knockdown, so should other carnivores (like carno for example: get back their knockdown on hit, not distance) to make it fair when fighting (especially against mix packs, as much as we all hate them).

[elfin night]

the game is asymmetrically balanced

no carnivore should get instant knockdown unless it's actually a thing in their design

[dusky surge]

rex will probably get it

[elfin night]

mhm

although hopefully in things that arent huge

like maybe a dibble or less

[dusky surge]

it's like saying more herbivores should do high bleed because basically all carnivores do bleed with their attacks

idk man, i dont see it

we dont have a herbivore with venom, or a flying herbivore, or a diving herbivore (yet)

[elfin night]

also herrera has "instant" knockdown

[pine robin]

To be fair, teno had had its knockdown since it's coming into the game. Carno had the weight, it had the knockdwn, then it got removed :/. It just sucks growing on a server, only to get stun locked and die when your 89% grown. And you can't take a kick to the face 😦

[elfin night]

and it's totally fair there in case you are not nuked in the first hit

[elfin night]

why were you so close to a teno?

you never fight those as a carno unless there's 2-3 of you

[pine robin]

Because I was trying to knockdown a teno with my charge, thiught i ahd the distance> But judt went dead stop on a young looking one when trying to save a guy i met up with'

[dusky surge]

it got removed for good reason. A creature with that level of speed and weight also possessing an easy, forward-facing knockdown tool FAR exceeds the more defensively geared knockdowns behind kicks, slams and so on. Pachy's ram was nerfed for very similar reasons when it comes to its stuns and knockdowns

[pine robin]

Mind you, we were fighting gallis and a maia trying to get away when it happende

[pine robin]

true, but i would rather that, than what it is now. I took on two pachys as a solo carno before those changes were in place

[elfin night]

you literally can't knock them, stun at 60m is the maximum

[pine robin]

Huh, well it looked small enough

either way

[elfin night]

you can knockdown like 60% of your weight

around that

also carno has a stun recovery problem in the live branch where you can actually get chain stunned

obviously unintended and not teno's fault

[pine robin]

getting knocked down to get up but can't move, only to get knocked down again and killed sucks. Regardless if you think dinos should have that ability or not. There should at least be a chance for someone to run away if they are beat.

[pine robin]

huh i didn't know that

might be why

[elfin night]

what I just said already answers this

what you suffer with carno is unintended

[pine robin]

Yeha that sucks then

[elfin night]

and I think it got addressed in the HT

[pine robin]

thought it was intentional for the longest time 😛

thank god if it did

Been playing on Petits Pieds server with low (and I mean low) AI, was hunting some gallis. Only for a young maia, which I could have teken solo, and two tenos to nab me like they did. Just sucks. I really do hope they fix that issue in the ne update, I didn't realise that it was an issue. But I've lost a lot of full grown carnos to this issue and I got mad enough to complian about it now 😛

the server pop is 340 btw

It's much more active and immersive than regular servers if I'm honest, but it is very hard to grow :)\

Honestly this "issue" just feels really unfair. I'm venting now because I didn't realise it was an isue for the longest time..... Damn that's rough

[elfin night]

the monkey paw curls

[pine robin]

Also, one other question too i guess. When is Carno's diet gonna be upgrade. Cause right now it sucks with the current roster XD

[elfin night]

carno went from bully to bullied (still like a B tier in the live branch)

[keen plover]

🤔 don't this so

[elfin night]

as more playables get added

[pine robin]

very true

used to be my main back on spiro, man that was fun. A nd i joined after all the changes lol

[pine robin]

👍

[pine robin]

No?

that suck if that's the case

[keen plover]

It might. Nothing stating it has been fixed though

[pine robin]

Damn, I really hope that is the case. Cause it really sucks dying to that after you put all that work in :/

[keen plover]

Hopefully yeah. I still think it might be possible. Nothing has changed from what I could tell

[grand walrus]

Should be Omni size

[viscid mica]

Na

More like troodon sized prolly abit bigger

Closer to dryo size

[rapid flume]

I think 150-250 is pretty good

[elfin night]

100 and we ballin

Ovi is not meant to be precisely big

[crimson crater]

can’t picture dryo being bigger than it

[obsidian yacht]

my guy its an oviraptor

[obsidian yacht]

I can, by at least 15%

[crimson crater]

it should be nowhere near omni sized but i’d prefer it to be slightly bigger than a dryo

[warm flax]

isn't oviraptor only a 50~kg creature?

[frozen ibex]

honestly should be the mid-way point between herra and omni

thatd be nice

[azure turret]

I think bucking should be reworked entirely and, yes, with its current state, my dilo would suffer against Omni, especially a pack. The reason for reducing Dilo’s weight is.. pachy mostly. Also to severely reduce its facetanking capacity. The bite speed reduction is less of a nerf, more just making it like everybody else. It is INSANELY fast for no reason. Another thing I didn’t mention—500kg dilo should have the ability to jump! The calls being used to instruct clones was intended to bring more options for the dilo to use to confuse prey but also more opportunities for prey to use their ears rather than their eyes to locate the true dilo. I propose that everytime the dilo calls, the clones call as well so it’s not so easy for the latter. The clones making no footstep audio is what will be key in finding the real dilo. As for sending a hundred of them in to attack, first of all, you’d need to land 100 bites. Remember that you only earn a charge after landing a bite. Making venom unusable during the day does not make dilo unviable. That’s where the ability to scavenge comes in. If not making all of the venom unusable, at least the clones wouldn’t be. The fog could stay. The intention is that dilos are more vulnerable out of their element, and are much more likely to run (using that incredibly fast and very viable speed) or hide out in caves or dens during the day, feeding off of scavenged remains until night falls and they can turn the tables. Even if Omni couldn’t pounce during the night, it’s still completely viable, it just has to change its strategy, which is exactly what i want to see from dilo.

[steep gazelle]

Dilo can't facetank against Pachy

At least against a pachy that knows how to use the skill no

[azure turret]

I know, but it is extremely difficult to fight 1 or more dilos as a pachy. Clones are a death sentence and if you miss a single attack then yea it pretty much can facetank you

[steep gazelle]

This is more of a problem with pachy, but also with the clones being Op

[azure turret]

Right. I did cover a Pachy rework in the past and I think the clones being op issue is solved in my case

[steep gazelle]

Pachy selfstun should be dramatically reduced or removed, especially when you miss

[azure turret]

I think a self stun on the ram is ok, as long as when a creature is fractured it is stunned. And pachy needs a second option to deal fracture damage (less than the ram) that doesn’t stun the pachy and can be used on the move

[steep gazelle]

Pachy being able to use alt attack while running would be nice. It doesn't cause fractures, but it allows for combos

[azure turret]

A secondary attack that isn’t the alt that could be used while running is better imo, especially since it could do fracture damage. The alt attack I think should have higher damage and be best used for a target that’s already knocked over

[steep gazelle]

This might be good. I really wouldn't mind if the lmb attack was changed, it's pretty much useless

[hasty coyote]

Quite literally, unless the pachy runs off after every ram or gets head fracture at the start, it dies to dilo face tanking it.

[hasty coyote]

Balancing dilo around pachy is a bad idea because pachy is actively a horrible playable atm whose only good ability is leg fracture. Dilo doesn’t need nerfs, pachy needs buffs. Same with the bite speed, I think Omni could just use a bite speed increase, not nerfing dilo. This mainly because I would much rather the smalls actually all feel good to play, rather than all feeling equally terrible.

While yes it would need to land 10 bites to send shadow clone army, that still effectively doubles dilo’s damage. So its advantage state is still equally as oppressive as now, but without the stats it has lost, it’s in a MUCH worse spot when it’s at a disadvantage. Especially since the clones are hittable, using them to double damage in a burst is genuinely the best option. And that’s if any of this works. Dilo clones have already been notoriously unreliable due to buggy ai, making them this complex would likely not work tbh.

Just giving them the ability to scavenge and hide during the day sounds like a horrible idea because that basically means “log out during the day, you won’t be able to play the game”. Dilo is already MUCH more scary at night due to applying venom faster and that venom lasting longer. All this change does is make dilo flip between fodder and a regular Dino depending on the time of day, which just makes dilo pain to play due to being incredibly inconsistent (which is bad if you’re playing a game about long term survival).

Again all of the concepts are good, but the execution just leaves dilo with just as bad balance as pachy, if not worse.

[steep gazelle]

Pachy manages to stunlock Dilo

The cooldown to knockdown others again is much shorter for pachy

[hasty coyote]

I genuinely tested it recently, no it can’t. You have to ram, back away during the stun immunity, ram again. Even with a head fracture on the first hit, a dilo brings a pachy down to red while just facing and biting.

Pachy ram needs 6 rams to kill a dilo, dilo needs to land 6 bites to kill a pachy. And dilo can bite a lot faster than pachy can ram, even with stuns. If pachy rams the dilo while it’s down, the dilo can land 3-4 bites before the pachy gets a 3rd ram to knockdown due to pachy’s attack lock, self stun, and time to charge a ram and dilo’s stun immunity.

[azure turret]

And the pachy still is guaranteed to die after bc clones.

[steep gazelle]

Just use it at the right time, Pachy recovers from selfstun before Dilo gets up

And you also don't need to hold the rmb, just click and it knockdown dilo

And pachy does way more damage with rmb than you think, it's not 6 rmb to kill a Dilo

[azure turret]

It’s not really balanced around pachy, it just is given a better matchup against pachy as a result of the change. It’s balanced around not being able to facetank anymore. If you want to not have 100 dilo clones being sent after a single target then maybe there could be a maximum to how many charges you can have at once. Saying that the reason clones shouldn’t be made more interactive due to buggy ai isn’t very progressive. Not working properly doesn’t mean that it should be held back from becoming something better.. I understand that it’d be harder to pull off, but it isn’t out of the range of possibility and it brings a much needed change to “spam rmb”. With the daytime idea: dilo is not unviable without venom. It is incredibly fast and has a pretty high bite force, it is more than capable of defending itself and running from things it shouldn’t fight. If it’s a better idea to log during the day than so be it. Plenty of creatures who have terrible night vision log during the night for the sole reason that they are at an extreme disadvantage. The issue right now is that there is no dynamicism between fighting a dilo in its element vs out of it. It’s just slightly harder. Dilos should fear the day and everything else should fear the dilo at night. I understand the concern but I genuinely feel like this could work perfectly with minor tweaks.

Take raptor for example: it’s much easier to fight in a forest than in a field because Omni is out of its element in areas with many obstacles. In a forest Omni is quite literally robbed of the choice to pounce due to how many trees there are to knock it off. Does this make Omni unviable? No. The Omni can change his strategy or find better luck elsewhere

[hasty coyote]

Go test it, I quite literally tested this exact matchup less than a week ago, ram deals 125, alt deals 65. Meanwhile dilo deals 85 a bite.

[hasty coyote]

The difference is, Omni can choose to hunt in the plains and avoid forests no matter the time of day. dilo just doesn’t get to play the game half the time because of something out of its control.

[azure turret]

Like I said.. they can very much still play the game. Just differently.

[steep gazelle]

90% of Pachy's RMB in a fight against Dilo will be head hits, so 6 attacks is a high number

That's assuming the hits actually count as hits

[azure turret]

Let’s remove the possibility of the Omni to leave. It’s still viable.

[azure turret]

Didn’t they say they literally tested it? And even if it is a high number is that so surprising? Back in the day pachy took a solid 15 rams to kill 1800kg carno, and assuming that it’s unchanged, that means pachy does 120 damage per ram. And what’s dilos hp divided by 120? Surprise surprise it’s 5.8 (6) hits.. dilo wins against pachy. That’s the end of it honestly

EVEN IF the pachy knocks over the dilo every chance it gets, it will be left on severely low health or dead. And then clones will guarantee kill it. The only chance pachy has against dilo is to get the jump on it, be in a group, or jump somewhere too high to be caught

[tall cypress]

Dilophosaurus is definitely meant to be a nocturnal hunter. It's not a dinosaur that is a bit "stronger" at night. It needs to be reworked.

Bite speed reduced

Dilos base stats(daylight)

KG 700 ==> 650
speed 47.5 ==> 42
biteforce 85 ==> 67.5

Hallucinations

Damage ==> 37.5
dilo's clone ability stacks 3 charges. Each charge takes 20 seconds to recharge.
dilo's clones cannot bleed the opponent.

Venom stage

1 ==> unlocks when the opponent is at 90% health
2==> unlocks when the opponent is at 75% health
3==> unlocks when the opponent is at 60% health
(if the opponent has not taken damage for 20 seconds
the stages decrease one by one. 5% damage must be dealt to the opponent to return to the previous stage)

Dilos base stats(night fall)

KG 650
speed 43 ==> 49
biteforce 75 ==> 85

Hallucinations

Damage ==> 42.5

Dilos's clone ability no longer automatically stacks. Instead, stacks are stacked according to the number of times he hits his opponent.
Maximum number of stacks 2
(If you continue hitting immediately after the stacks are depleted, the stacks will quickly re-accumulate.)
Dilo's clones can make the opponent bleed.

Venom stages
1==>When the opponent is at 95% health
2==>When the opponent is at 90% health
3==>When the opponent is at 80% health
(If the opponent does not take damage for 1 minute,(clone damage doesn't include) the venom stage decreases one by one. If you want to return to the previous stage, deal 2.5% damage. The opponent can roll in the mud to shorten the duration of the poison by 30 seconds)

Whenever the opponent loses 25% of their blood, the dilos will start laughing for a short time
and gain 5% movement speed for 5 seconds

Dilo's footsteps are 25% less audible at night.

Maiam's idea was good. I changed it a little and improved it.

[dusky surge]

Oh my god you want dilo to be worthless lmao

[azure turret]

I don’t really like how the Dilo’s base stats change entirely based on day/night, but I like the idea of clones being tied to the targets health in a way

[azure turret]

Yeah lol I think not having venom during daytime is very much enough to make it less of a threat

[steep gazelle]

I've been against countless Carnos where I needed 9 rmb to kill them, and dilos where I needed less than 6 rmb. I haven't tested this on a server with an admin panel, but I have tested it in gameplay

[tall cypress]

Making hım night hunter lol

[tall cypress]

Xd speaking of clowns cant you see how strong it is at night ?

[azure turret]

There’s a hundred different circumstances that could’ve made your opponent lower than normal and as I said the calculations were done against old carno

[azure turret]

I don’t think what you added is necessary tbh. It’s too much

[tall cypress]

Which is much

[azure turret]

Changing dilos base stats based on day/night

[tall cypress]

Then it would destroy pachy or omni at daylight?

Like now i say

Nothing will changes

[azure turret]

Omni and pachy have an extremely fair matchup against dilo as 500kg, Omni is actually In a complete advantage against it too

[tall cypress]

Ok what you offer then ?

Making it 500kg

[azure turret]

You should read the rework again it has everything I suggest on it

[tall cypress]

Dilos height is same as carnos height

[azure turret]

Um. What

[tall cypress]

I read everything

[tall cypress]

Xd yes it is

[azure turret]

Dilo is slightly taller than pachy..

[tall cypress]

Bruh

You never play agains Dilo right

[azure turret]

Absolutely do

The size of dilo vs pachy is a similar difference to the size of Omni vs galli

[steep gazelle]

the most recent calculation I did on a server with an admin panel, pachy was taking 11.60% of a Carno's life when hitting its body

[tall cypress]

Nopey nope

[azure turret]

Oh ok so 150 dmg

[azure turret]

Show me this because dilo is 100% not as tall as carno

[tall cypress]

I can agree 700 too much but 500 is diabloticial

Go play the game mate xd

[azure turret]

I don’t really see why, it can run from everything except carno.

[tall cypress]

Ops

[azure turret]

improved is a stretch but sure

That video is inaccurate in so many ways lmao

[tall cypress]

Yeah

Trike is too big but

Dilo is accurate

[azure turret]

No. Almost everything is inaccurate

[tall cypress]

Okay you can try norden server

Go take some friend with you

And look its size

[azure turret]

Don’t really have that option at the moment

[tall cypress]

I can wait

[azure turret]

Do you have any images or something that show dilo size?

[tall cypress]

Nah i am at phone

But you get the idea of what i make right ?

Dilo have to be a night hunter

When nights begin all server have to be scared because some dilos can kill them easly

But when daytime dilos have to scare for same thing

[azure turret]

Yes I understand but if dilo loses its main tool during the daytime that in itself is enough to completely change the way it behaves during the day. Making venom work at day/night and just making dilo slightly weaker during the day doesn’t make things interesting at all

[tall cypress]

Venom can still work on day but just harder

[azure turret]

Also, here’s some size references I took from other’s photos and videos

[azure turret]

That’s literally the way it is now

[crimson crater]

dilo is inaccurately scaled in that pic

[azure turret]

Ah

Well the second two pics are accurate at least

[tall cypress]

Harder harder i mean

[azure turret]

Easier/harder is not what I’m aiming for. That’s the point of this being a rework and not just a nerf. I’m aiming to add on to dilos existing identity

[tall cypress]

Now dilos venom work at 83% healt at day

[azure turret]

I’m also trying not to make it unnecessarily tedious

[tall cypress]

I wrote a damn whole rework here and you dont reading it xd

Its not a nerf

Its al changes just read it again properly

[azure turret]

Besides what you said about clones you were pretty literally stating “make dilo weaker at day and stronger at night”

By changing its stats

[tall cypress]

I made its clone work with bleeds not damage

At day yes it have to be weak than night

Xd this is what you wrote

[azure turret]

Why does dilo need to be slow and weak at daytime I really don’t get it. The idea to make dilo a bleeder is interesting yes, but what I’m trying to aim for is to force dilo to interact with the target and using clones to make it possible, not giving clones the tools to just bleed something like Omni

Yes. That’s what I decided would make day dilo different and more vulnerable than night dilo. Venom just won’t work during the day, and Dilo can use all the other tools it has to survive

I don’t see the need to change dilos base stats is all.

[tall cypress]

Making it stronger /weaker

[azure turret]

What I meant is if you make venom work at both day and night and the only difference is that one is slightly harder than the other is not interesting. My alternative is to remove venom during the day and keep it at night so that Dilo has to use different strategies to survive based on time. The removal of venom during the day inherintly makes it more vulnerable so the change to speed and biteforce is unnecessary

[tall cypress]

What a long paragraph

[tall cypress]

Mine do that too ?

You just want "your" Dilo in game

[azure turret]

Surprise surprise I want the idea that I came up with to be applied because I think it works

And it does

[tall cypress]

And nobody likes it

Just a few

[azure turret]

You’re one of them 😭

[tall cypress]

I am one of liker btw

[azure turret]

Right

[tall cypress]

Go look damn

[tall cypress]

.

[azure turret]

The amount of people who like it I could care less about, I just want to put it out there

[azure turret]

That’s what I said, you’re one of them

[tall cypress]

Oh i read it wrong sorry

Look mate. For me Dilo have to be strong at night but have to be weak at day not normal at day and bit stronger at night

[azure turret]

Dilo without venom is weaker, no?

And in my version that’s how it is during day.

[tall cypress]

İt have venom damn

Where you reading it with

Look

Dilo is without venom

[azure turret]

My eyes work fine

[tall cypress]

İs not Dilo just omni without paunce

But bigger

They can still use venom at day but it needs skill use it properly

Not everyone can do that

[azure turret]

And less agile, faster, does more damage, can scavenge, can’t jump, and all the other ways dilo is different to Omni..

[tall cypress]

Dilos cant jump

This is stupit sorry

[azure turret]

Like what I just said..

Can’t jump

[tall cypress]

My eyes isnt working

Sorry for that:D

Or my brain

[azure turret]

That’s fine, I just don’t want misunderstandings to turn hostile

lol

[tall cypress]

Lol

[elfin night]

...........

W h a t

Dilo venom needs skill?

[tall cypress]

Yes its only work at 60% healt

[tall cypress]

Go read my Dilo rework

Xd you instantly came and say rondomly things verry good

[azure turret]

But basically what I’m gathering is, in your version dilo can do all of the same things during day and night, it is just easier at night and harder at day. In my version, dilo can only do certain things at night, which makes the day harder as a side effect. In your version dilo is blatantly weaker during the day and blatantly stronger during the night, in my version dilo is different in day and different at night. Both could potentially solve dilos problem but in different ways and that’s fine.

[obsidian yacht]

why tf is allo so small

[tall cypress]

Its not accurate

[azure turret]

The vid is inaccurate

[elfin night]

Untrue

also maybe getting certain animals to a certain threshold IS skillful

but venom itself really isn't

[obsidian yacht]

yeah i gathered that

[tall cypress]

İn my version Dilo kill with damage at day and kills with blled at night

[elfin night]

and all because dilo is garbage design

[tall cypress]

You ok with your brain or sum

[elfin night]

yeah I'm not obligated, but I will read it anyway so I can get a better context

[tall cypress]

Its only work at 60% HP in my version of Dilo

[worthy steeple]

dilo…

[azure turret]

In his version of the rework it’s how it works, he not saying that’s how it is now )

[elfin night]

maybe specify before throwing personal attacks please

[worthy steeple]

i will personally nerf dilo

[elfin night]

bro said it in present

[tall cypress]

Sorry for that but still you can read that first

[elfin night]

not in a would or hypothetical

[azure turret]

lol

[elfin night]

and yeah will do now

where is it?