balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

omni is crazy good as a generalist introductory carnivore with lots of room to learn and improve

which is EXACTLY what it should be as one of the main posterboy animals

[elfin night]

I will not get tired of saying it

Being forced to respect and avoid omnis more than carnos or anyone else when you are smaller is one of the worst feelings ever

[keen plover]

Eh. It sort of is abysmal for all parties.

[elfin night]

I think big game hunting sucks as omni because pounce might not work or you end up randomly stunned

but pinning or just pouncing dilos or pachies is so no skill

[keen plover]

Omni is currently unplayable in the HT

[dusky surge]

cuz of the lag?

oh lol

[elfin night]

brutal

[keen plover]

More than brutal. Poor troodon as well 💔

But eh shouldn't be happening anyways

[worthy steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-puppy-angry-angry-dog-veeunus-gif-24649620

[keen plover]

Honestly I think solo pouncers just shouldn't be all that threatening if you know how to buck lol

[dusky surge]

bucking needs another rework imho

[iron tree]

The only thing that holds omni back from destroying everything is latency, desync and foliage knocking them off

The old bucking was way better imo. It should drain the raptor's stamina but definitely not the stamina of the victim

@crystal stream I love maia but I don't think the kick needs a buff

It's an alt attack and can be used even without stamina

You can technically just get yourself on a rock to spam kick

[blissful geode]

With foliage an so much trees I think it's a good change ngl, especially with those tiny tree plant thingies In jungles

[iron tree]

Wdym

[blissful geode]

The current bucking I mean, that it should drain victims stamina

[uncut jewel]

@open flicker I wrote a Idea science a week for the cera problematic wait i can link it.

you can tell me what do you think about it

[iron tree]

It should drain stamina as bucking harms you more than it harms the raptor

[uncut jewel]

@open flicker #general-feedback message

[hasty coyote]

Do that and make clones actually be able to be hit to prevent the damage, and dilo would be in a pretty good spot imo

[elfin night]

No, needs more

Actual reliance on itself when clones don’t work

[hasty coyote]

It’s already really solid without clones with its damage and bite speed.

[elfin night]

Try fighting something that you cannot flat out trade with 😭

Dilo is either abysmal or mind numbingly overpowered rn

[hasty coyote]

But if dilo is perfectly fine without venom, then it will just obliterate anything with venom.

It’s like saying pachy should be balanced without fractures

[hasty coyote]

Shift+w saves you from anything but carno and a horde of Galis.

[dusky surge]

making dilo a standalone viable creature when clones don't work doesn't really make sense to me because that just circles right back to "make dilo strong and clones OP"

it's like making herrera strong without climbing

[hasty coyote]

And currently dilos maul any Maias who aren’t incredibly good. I know me and a buddy killed 4 Maias out of a herd of 6 and a stego, and without clones because we constantly bit them to death. Only 1 was a threat because it found terrain where it could camp and clones didn’t work, it killed my buddy but I managed to barely kill it. And the only change that would hurt dilo on its own from that would be a 15 damage nerf, which is basically nothing.

[hasty coyote]

Basically, dilo shouldn’t be balanced around clones not working, clones should just work.

[dusky surge]

^

it's a weird balancing path to take with it for sure

because at that point you have to delegate clones to the role of basically just "glorified spectacle" to avoid shifting dilo's balance into overpowered

[elfin night]

Except that climbing is much more than just a hunting tool

[dusky surge]

i dont see what that has to do with anything tbh

[elfin night]

Or well yeah, you could just go and make clones actually work and be interesting to use

[elfin night]

That’s a more reliable path

[dusky surge]

making dilo strong without clones means you just make dilo even stronger

hell, dilo is ALREADY strong without clones

that's part of the problem, clones compound its existing strength

[signal hearth]

#balance-feedback message
@naive hemlock was this during day or night?

[signal hearth]

Also this is why I support the idea of clones doing no damage and venom primarily existing to disorient- be that through clones which are just distractions (of varying efficacy depending on who you ask), visual impairments, misleading HUD/status info, or any reasonable combination of the above.

As previously stated, I feel like damaging clones is too close to brain-dead gameplay.

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message i have a theory that devs want us to just hide during the night in the bush and avoid dilos at all costs, maybe thats the reason behind giving them one of the most loud footsteps and one shot mechanic lol

[cosmic pelican]

The night terror 🔥

[worthy steeple]

more like… boring and lame gameplay…

[steep gazelle]

Troodon and his venom lasting an extremely high 45s and Dilo with his venom lasting 10min 🔥🔥🔥

Dilo is literally the opposite of Troodon in my view, Dilo is the easy mode of Evrima and Troodon is the hard mode

[elfin night]

*easy mode when clones work

otherwise it is just a boring, uninteresting glorified legacy dinosaur

in fact wth, it's still boring when it works, just not useless

terrible design

[worthy steeple]

yeah

[steep gazelle]

Yes. Dilo without the clones kills almost nothing, he needs rework so he doesn't become so dependent and also so he isn't Op when they work

[wheat moth]

Yall

I killed 2 dilos yesterday instantly but they got venom on me

And guess what? I turned from yellow to red, I kept on eating their bodies constantly cuz I have gastro and can just instantly heal but I kept going from blue to red, what kind of nonsense is that???

[worthy steeple]

yeah.. same happened to me, got bitten by the dilo once and it got me to red health

the game was so much better when they removed the clones on evrima branch, now i just hide on the rock to not get killed by dilo mega pack lmao

it really needs a rework

[wheat moth]

Fr

[viscid mica]

To be fair when the clones broke no one played dilo as dilo is objectively trash without clones

[worthy steeple]

i’ve seen a lot of people still playing…

tho i agree dilo is bad without the clones

[viscid mica]

They fixed venom…

[worthy steeple]

but it’s better in that state than broken op state

[worthy steeple]

when it wasn’t fixed

[viscid mica]

Read announcements lol

[worthy steeple]

read what lmao

[viscid mica]

#announcements

[worthy steeple]

i said i saw people playing when venom wasn’t fixed and wasn’t working

dude

[viscid mica]

Oh ya afew people tried or didn’t know

[viscid mica]

The isn’t saw this is seen

[worthy steeple]

xd

[viscid mica]

YOU CANT USE PRESENT TENSE FOR PAST TENSE

[worthy steeple]

i’m not native speaker😭😭 doing my best alright

[viscid mica]

What’s your first language

[worthy steeple]

tenontosaurus

[viscid mica]

This

[worthy steeple]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/999938352692346982/1244144761405706240/zazabert.gif

[dusky surge]

i feel that's the entirely wrong approach. Rather than balance around its mechanic (like how every other animal is balance), you just turn said mechanic into a glorified gimmick with effectively no combat value because, as was said many a time, most experienced players can immediately identify a clone and choose to ignore it

[neon willow]

Most players can very quickly identify an AI dino vs a player because they don't behave the same.

Honestly I think dilo could be balanced by 1) reducing the amount of time that the prey is envenomed - rather than 5 minutes, it should last maybe a minute max before it is reset and dilo needs to restack, just like troodon. 2) dilo clones should be less damage than the OG dilo. They should be bonus damage, not the main way to apply damage. The main way to stack serious damage should be for the dilo to need to go in for bites. This makes it more fair for opponents fighting dilo

Right now if you don't kill them when they first apply venom, there's a strong probability dilo will never reengage again and you'll just die of clones whittling you down with no chance to fight back. But I think if they do no damage then they become obsolete - enemies can safely ignore them because they don't act like players

But I think there is a middle ground where you can force solo to reengage with the fight without completely disabling clones

[naive hemlock]

Day

[viscid mica]

@mellow gulch you can always just not get close enough to omni to get hit

Having to avoid 1 playable isn’t the worst thing ever

[mellow gulch]

"don't get hit" is easier said then done, in any game, but compound that with this games terribad netcode and Omnis buggy pounce, and the possibly for a Galli to die with no chance to escape is even higher

and one playable happens to be one of the most common playables in the game, Omni's are everywhere, you might be able to run, but whats stopping one from hiding in a bush while the Galli is busy focusing on it's mate?

[rapid flume]

I've actually pinned a galli before by doing that

[signal hearth]

That's valid, though I do maintain that if implemented with visual distortions so you can't clearly see what's happening your chances of mistaking a player for a clone and vice versa are exponentially higher.

[signal hearth]

Oh wow- yeah that is problematic

[signal hearth]

#balance-feedback message
Buffing Pachy or reworking it to be stronger would just encourage so many more hyper aggressive Pachy players. They're bad enough as it is 🤣

[hasty coyote]

have you played pachy recently? Its so bad, the only thing its good at is mixpacking or being in a massive group and breaking legs.

hence why you only see aggro pachies in groups, you will die on sight if you play pachy in literally any other way

[signal hearth]

And you'd rather see solos being aggro too? xD

[hasty coyote]

I would rather see solos at all lmao. Pachy is designed to be aggro, it doesnt have the hp to tank a hit first, it must strike first. And if you're worried about groups being bad, then deal with a group of dilos or omnis of the same size and say its easier lol.

[keen plover]

Everyone is hyper aggressive lol

This isn't pachy exclusive

[signal hearth]

Honestly not enough hours to be able to properly compare- I can only speak from experience, seen videos and my own reason, to be fair. I've mentioned my issues with Pachy before, though apparently that experience was down to really bad luck in when I chose to log back on and lack of cover to break line of sight xD

[signal hearth]

True, but when a playable has a tool to remove player agency it must be carefully balanced to preserve fun for all.

[keen plover]

I guess but pachy is a terrible playable. Even the fractures it relies on barely help it outside of leg fracure

[signal hearth]

I don't know, body killing stam and head reducing you to tunnel vision are both pretty nasty too.

[keen plover]

carno mauls you in that time though and you can still fight with a head fracture

Pounce and dilo venom are still usable. Same with carno charge

Only good fracture is a leg fracture. Immediately helps the pachy dip (and also fight lol)

[signal hearth]

That's valid, though the counterpoint there would surely be that a carno with a broken body isn't going to be able to charge for long?
To be clear my intention here isn't to be argumentative, but rather to learn from more experienced players 🙂

[hasty coyote]

As someone who enjoys pachy, I can tell you right now for multiple matchups, this thing is genuine trash unless you can outplay your opponent, and even then you may still die. 2/3rds of your rams literally wont register or will get bugged on a 5 degree incline, half of those that do register break the right part. Its damage is pitiful and all the other dinos in its size tier have power crept it out of existance. Omni can kill it with a single pounce if the pachy doesnt immediately buck or gets bad rng. Dilo is op, but a single bite is just death to 1000 clones, or it can literally face tank a pachy to death unless the pachy runs after every hit to stall out the stun immunity. Carno is currently an absolute menace to small game and a solo pachy does not stand a chance unless it gets leg fracture (which it never will if the carno just faces the pachy)

I can agree that fractures def need a rebalance for pachy and probably future fracture dinos to be well balanced, as they hurt standing your ground way too much compared to stopping a chase. Body fracture needs an immediate effect like reduced turning while sprinting. Head fracture needs its effects to be stronger in a chase, but prob reduced if you stand your ground. Leg fracture needs to not prevent alt attacks and preferably only disable mobility attacks and those that use legs. Also prob make receiving a fracture stun as a global mechanic.

Pachy itself def needs bug fixes and qol changes with ram (make it not canceled for looking slightly to the side and still go off and make pressing left click while charging ram cancel it), remove the self-stuns and attack locks on ram, and then see what pachy needs from there.

[signal hearth]

Fair, you raise a good point with head fractures as well- likely a less severe tunnel vision with motion blur that gets worse when you sprint might suit that better, simulating a concussion.

[hasty coyote]

the tunnel vision becoming worse as you move is def much better imo, but I do think that the damage reduction should also get nerfed. Currently it halfs damage output, which is insane.

[signal hearth]

Oh wow, yeah that seems nuts. I understand having a concussion would weaken you somewhat, but I don't know about 50% unless they're trying to say it's not the head but the jaw that is fractured.

[hasty coyote]

jaw getting fractured is def part of it (see anky concept of it breaking a spino's jaw) but the issue is it isnt only applied to bites, its applied to ALL attacks

[signal hearth]

Yeah, being applied to all attacks rather than just bites does seem like either an oversight or a shortcut if that's the direction they're going with it.

[hasty coyote]

I think it applying to all attacks is fine, since that makes it not carnivore-specific. Its just that halving all damage output makes any dino with fractures and decent combat potential absolutely lethal

[slim dragon]

If it was only bites it'd be mostly useless

Nothing apart from cera and dilo relies on bites as their main way to deal damage

[slim dragon]

I also think it's fine that head fractures neuter combat potential ?
If you get a head fracture, it means you were facing the pachy, so not running away. And it doesn't affect your mobility, so it's the perfect time to just book it

[hasty coyote]

the issue is fractures arent gonna be a pachy specific mechanic

look at anky and probably pachyrhino

[tight cove]

u didn't @ me so that's why im responding so late but look, idk if you've played pachy recently but no joke its only really effective in mix herd groups or in pachy herds but otherwise its pretty bad to play as rn

[slim dragon]

They're still used by rather slow animals

So you always have the option to get away once your damage potential gets nuked

[hasty coyote]

that means either anky and pachyrhino are balanced around receiving half damage, or they're completely unapproachable

[hasty coyote]

so basically every single fight? you have to face towards them at some point to get closer

[signal hearth]

In all honesty I only have around 100 hours and have not played Pachy. Engaging in discourse here to learn more and hopefully help stimulate positive change if it is identified to actually be needed 🙂

[slim dragon]

Or their predators are balanced around not getting fractured as soon as they approach due to playing better

[slim dragon]

Saying anky will be untouchable if head fractures remain the same is a lot of assumption
We haven't seen how any apex works besides trike

[hasty coyote]

when the predators are also generally slow and attack with their heads, thats pretty much gonna be impossible unless they land ann ambush, and unless they can 100-0 with that ambush, they're gonna get head fractured

[tight cove]

all good 😎

[slim dragon]

Maybe it's not gonna be 1 hit to fracture and apex's head

[hasty coyote]

Then its gotta be like 3-4 for anky or rhino to not fracture their predators easily, and that also means all of those hits just dont matter until you land the fracture.

[tight cove]

but won't their predators also be able to do fractures and / or pin them ?

[tight cove]

true

[hasty coyote]

1: idk man, fracturing the armored part of a dino seem pretty hard, like pachy has head fracture immunity. 2: then those fracture predators are gonna have to deal with the exact same issue. 3: pins are bad

thats why I think fractures need to be tuned down, they take up WAY too much of a dino's power budget

[tight cove]

ngl bro against a pachyrhino for example your almost guaranteed to get fractured in that fight and if its a leg fracture its gg unless your an apex 💀 😂

[tight cove]

so whats your idea on how to make pachy better? 👀

[hasty coyote]

something like this: #balance-feedback-discussion message
tldr: make fractures not prevent standing your ground, but better in a chase. Make pachy not miserable to play. Then see what it needs from there.

[tight cove]

"Also prob make receiving a fracture stun as a global mechanic.

Pachy itself def needs bug fixes and qol changes with ram (make it not canceled for looking slightly to the side and still go off and make pressing left click while charging ram cancel it), remove the self-stuns and attack locks on ram, and then see what pachy needs from there."

this part of what you said is honestly the only thing pachy needs

and if you add in a max of 3 stuns for each different fracture it would be fun

and if its performing too well you work from there and decrease its power

https://tenor.com/view/pikanod-gif-17687159938092547682

maybe even buff its stam but maybe thats too far

but I'm sure if QA actually takes the testing seriously and locks in they can figure it out.

[slim dragon]

Tiered fractured then

[hasty coyote]

Pachy itself would def be solid with that. I just don’t see how the current iteration of fractures are remotely fair on something with combat potential unless the fractures were only able to be applied at the end or against smaller targets. Even current pachy is a menace if its rams function. So I think a rebalance of fractures would really help make pachy and other fracture dinos much easier to balance. Plus then fractures could be given to other dinos without making them entirely reliant on fractures.

[tight cove]

i dont think were gonna get the tier system or at least any time soon, i think the devs might be sticking with just the fracture health system forever

[hasty coyote]

Pachy has 3:40 stam, it’s fine imo. Probably could also use the small buff from 41 to 43 kph

[slim dragon]

That's too bad, because a tiered system would solve many issues with fractured' balancing

[worthy steeple]

that’s wild

the stam part i mean

[hasty coyote]

That would accomplish a similar thing to a rebalance. However it again has the issue of being a “win more” or “bully” mechanic like current fractures are.

[hasty coyote]

It has insane stam since it’s balanced around the fact it’s slow and burning a large chunk in a fight and then running away.

[worthy steeple]

yeah fair

[slim dragon]

You're reducing your opponent's combat and movement potential
Of course it's gonna end up in bullying if they don't take the hint early

No rework will make that different

[tight cove]

if we had tier fractures it would def help with balancing but in regards to fairness against dinos with combat potential plz explain because #1 as it stands rn it takes multiple hits to fracture a cera or a teno and even while fractured they are more than capable of defending themselves

[tight cove]

yup

[worthy steeple]

i disagree.

[hasty coyote]

Teno literally only having bite after getting leg and body fractured:

[tight cove]

no tail slam or claw? u sure about that?

[hasty coyote]

Claw and kick are blocked by leg. Tail is blocked by body

[worthy steeple]

fracture shouldn’t be an autowin it is right now, fractured animals can’t run away, most of their attacks are disabled and they’re also slowed down which means it’s an easy target that can’t really do anything to the pachy.

the way to fix it is to nerf fractures, maybe add stages

[tight cove]

are you at your pc rn? id really like to test this because i dont remember being not able to claw and tail slam while fractured 😭

[worthy steeple]

not to mention it takes 20 minutes to heal the fracture if pachy doesn’t let you sit

[hasty coyote]

Can’t atm sadly, just yappin before I pass out (it’s 2am for me)

[tight cove]

damn 💀

[worthy steeple]

making pachy 43km/h without reworking fractures will just make pachy an excellent hunter, can’t do anything about that pachy pack, even if you fight them they just face tank you and then you become useless

[hasty coyote]

I can guarantee claw doesn’t work because it’s an alt attack, but last I checked tail slam was blocked by body, may have been changed tho.

[hasty coyote]

43 literally won’t change a single matchup except that speed mut ceras don’t run down pachies

[worthy steeple]

i tested teno fractures, yeah tail slam/kick/alt attack getting disabled

[tight cove]

☠️

[worthy steeple]

it will make easier for pachy to hunt tenos/ceras

and other small and slower dinos

[tight cove]

if it keeps the same amout of stam it becomes a pretty good hunter, and you gotta think about future matchups

think about mono and rugops and etc

megalania

[shrewd jungle]

🚪

_ _

is that megalania

[hasty coyote]

It really does not change them that much, they will struggle/bully all the same. Cera charged bite still practically 1-shots pachy because vomit and 2 bites. Teno still kills em with 2 combos. Both of which need pachy to approach to get hit.

[hasty coyote]

If mono and Rugops are slower than 43 pachy, they are fodder to Omni

[tight cove]

i dont get it srry 😭

[shrewd jungle]

omni sure is healthy for balance

accounting for pin sure is fun

[hasty coyote]

Again, Omnis pretty much cover any issues pachy has because Omnis do the same thing but worse.

[tight cove]

who knows what the devs will do 😂 🤷‍♂️

[shrewd jungle]

sorry..... it is a reference to me.

[worthy steeple]

well they just face tank and win lol… it’s same as dilo, you can fight them for sure, but you will not win

[hasty coyote]

Smaller targets: pin
Similar sized: Omnis 2-shot with pounce while pachies take 2-3 combos
1-2 tons: Omnis are harder to hit and kill in about 3-5 pounces, pachies require 2 rams to break a part and then have to bully the target to death over the next 10 minutes
Anything larger than 3 tons: pachy literally can’t break it

Any issues you have with pachy are equal or worse with Omni

[worthy steeple]

i’ll be honest i’d rather fight 15 omnis than 3 pachies

because i have a chance against 15 omnis lmao

in case of pachies it’s just face tank till i’m broken and can’t fight back and then it’s just easy win

[hasty coyote]

Are you forgetting le funny pin?

[worthy steeple]

i got funny trees and bushes all around the map👹

[hasty coyote]

Good luck with that

[worthy steeple]

i mean.. they work

it’s like the best strat against the omnis, they’re forced to bite you because if they pounce they will get knocked off and get killed

[hasty coyote]

If they’re smart they will just jump you at once and pin you instantly if you try and attack any you scrape off.

Against pachies all you need is a corner and they die because they can’t trade hits.

[worthy steeple]

doesn’t work, even if you’re getting jumped by insane omni overpack, it takes no time at all to buck them off using a tree

they need 4 omnis to insta pin the teno

and that is not happening if teno is near the tree

[untold coyote]

what do you guys think about stegs being able to trot while using the quick attack on the tail?

especially once trike and rex drop, it would be cool to have something stegs could do on the move besides a bite

[slim dragon]

They got the powerswing for that

[untold coyote]

the charge attack? that drains too much stam to use more than once or twice. The other one essentially roots you when you swing.

[bright oasis]

I've always felt like stego needed a bit more to it. I'd be OK with that, since it's backside is supposed to be fully defended well.

[untold coyote]

charged attacks should absolutely require "anchoring", but I really don't see why you shouldn't have some tail attack usable on the move, without having to commit the stam and positioning the charge swing requires.

[tropic horizon]

you can use it about 7 times while running and 10 times while standing

[untold coyote]

Again, if you're referring to the RMB attacks, those root you, you can't actually use it that effectively on the move.

The only one you can really use is the charge attack where you spin around, and that one eats up a ton of stam.

And you're committed to the animation

Even the quick attack roots you.

there should be something useful, but not devastating, that the steg can do with its tail while moving

maybe the quick attack needs some damage reduction to trade for utility

Steg won't be able to just sit there and tank trikes or rexes, and probably not allos either, which are all coming this year

probably

[golden coral]

Well, you can run from trikes, so that's something at least

It would be nice if stego got proper apex treatment, but that's not very likely to happen until settings/mods. But I'm sure they'll figure something out, unless the plan really is to just have stegos die to rexes unless in a herd, and they should know that's not an ideal way of doing things, so I sincerely doubt that'll be how it goes.

[untold coyote]

"Just run from trikes" shouldn't be the answer either, because as soon as a herd of trikes shows up, you'd just have to leave. Letting quick attack be used on the move would give some avenue for stegs to be able to do something, without just sitting there so you can use your tail and cause some bleed before you die. The only thing they can outrun are trikes and land deinos, and they won't be able to tank allos and rexes.

It wouldn't be game breaking in any way either

It would just allow for smarter players to be able to position/fight better.

[golden coral]

Yep, you have to leave when even one trike shows up, that's just how it goes. A good trike can possibly take on two stegos as it is. But that's just how it goes, stego can not contend with trike. Yes, there are ways to change this, but the devs might not want to do that. And stego can survive trikes, so it's viable. I do think allos won't be that powerful, a powerswing or two, even standing ones, should make an allo go away. Rex is, well, it remains to be seen how that goes.

[untold coyote]

Don't get me wrong, a steg shouldn't be at the same level as a trike, but as a lower-tier apex, it should be able to do something to make other apexes not just stroll up and roll over. Steg should lose, but it should hurt.

This wouldn't make them untouchable or anything, it just gives them a slight utility buff. I'd definitely be fine with some damage reduction on quick attack while moving or across the board to balance.

[golden coral]

Well, it can fight a trike, it just will lose, and pretty clearly so. But you can hurt the trike, or just avoid it entirely. I'm all for making stego a proper apex personally, and have my own ideas on what should be done with stego, which does include buffing it and giving it a proper mobile attack.

[obtuse ocean]

Strong dont mean best, i would hope rex has no issue vs a giga. But giga can prob kill something rex will struggle with etc

And having the option to walk away, is insanely good

[neon willow]

I personally hope stego gets upgraded to a "glass cannon" apex niche. It could be the lowest health out of the apexes, but also output seriously scary damage if you're not careful.

[obtuse ocean]

I guess that will be theri

[golden coral]

I'm not sure what that has to do with stego

[golden coral]

I actually disagree, I've no idea why people think stego should be a glass cannon, even among the apexes, and I don't think it's a good idea at all

Just "high damage" isn't really much of gameplay or a "niche" or even interesting

[obtuse ocean]

Its the same as trike vs stego , you prob loose. But you can leave, dont make everything equal, thats boring

[neon willow]

They could both be viable - I see theri and stego being balanced rather differently tbh

[golden coral]

I don't think I ever argued to just make things equal, but that doesn't mean stego can't be a bit better, closer in power, while still losing outright to a trike

[obtuse ocean]

true, but thats what stego is now? If you buff it wouldt it start getting close to trike then ?

[untold coyote]

Right now, stego doesn't really stand a chance against a competent trike player

[obtuse ocean]

Could also be that thing that looks like theri to, high dmg etc

[hasty coyote]

I think having an attack that deals 3x as much as a trike is pretty solid. Trike just hard counters stego since trike can flip stego, takes severely reduced damage to the head, and is too big to stun. If you get 2 stegos tho, that trike gets evaporated since it can’t cover 2 sides at once and one stego power swinging can kill a trike in 6 swings.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, and i think thats fine. Aslong as the stego can choose to leave

[neon willow]

Eh... It shouldn't be "just" high damage, of course. But it could potentially stand out among the other apexes in terms of gameplay if it's not doesn't focus entirely on massive amounts of health and general tanky play styles. Rex and trike both function as kind of a classic tank role. Trike moreso than rex because it's relatively slow as well. Stego could potentially get some interesting mechanics centered around trying to maximize outbound damage and prevent other dinos from getting close enough to do damage

[untold coyote]

Would letting quick attack be usable on the move really change that? It just makes it slightly more dangerous to apexes that will beat it even with the change.

A stego shouldn't be a target other apexes can just stroll up to and faceroll

[golden coral]

Even with my buffs, it would still lose outright to trike, but it would be able to fight it off/defend itself, which I think it's fine. It would still lack offensive ability to bully trike, just prevent itself from being bullied as much. And it'd still be the safest option to just walk/run away.

[obtuse ocean]

Good point, it should be good at defending

[untold coyote]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Letting quick attack be used on the move would help with zoning

[golden coral]

True, but no matter how you tune it, a stego will never be more tanky than a trike, due to well, multipliers and trike still being quite a bit larger. It's more so that stego should be tuned to do some things better than trike, and the other way around.

[hasty coyote]

To be fair, if you dumb it down like that, same thing can be said about Rex. Stego is flank defense: the animal. High damage wide reaching attacks, but with a vulnerable head that you have to protect at all costs. Once other apexes are in, I honestly think stego will be pretty neat.

[golden coral]

Well, rex does have the crush/pin and similar, but yes, rex is kind of the "I kill things very well", but with ambush and everything else. Stego is mostly just "stand there and swing repeatedly", which isn't itself bad, it's more so that it's just an attack, which feels a little lacking.

[obtuse ocean]

how much dmg does the power swing do ?

[golden coral]

And yes, it should be flank defense, I'm just not entirely convinced it's good at it, or as good as it should be

[untold coyote]

I still think steg should be geared to be a more mobile, zoning apex. Right now it's jsut "lol sit still and swing with tail"

[hasty coyote]

Stego is 100x better at dealing with groups and more agile targets than trike. Trike is better at winning any head on fight, especially against larger dinos. Both have ways to handle those threats, but they are better at their respective roles.

[hasty coyote]

1800

[untold coyote]

Is that the power swing or the charge spin?

Because I thouhgt the 1800 was the charge swing

[obtuse ocean]

I hope they do this, something better vs groups mid tiers etc. But you avoid the big guys etc

[golden coral]

I would hope it is, I've not really seen how well trike does with sparring and the whole kit, much less compared to stego using jabs or swings or whatever is most suitable for agile targets and groups.

[untold coyote]

Trike sparring makes it better than everything else currently in with fighting. It remains to be seen how rex will change that

[hasty coyote]

Trike is pretty similar to Diablo, but it’s slower and less agile, so it does struggle if the opponents know how to deal with it. Like even competent cera groups have been killing trikes.

[untold coyote]

1v1 trike beats everything*

[obtuse ocean]

Meaning allo alberto sucho groups prob gonna have free food lol

[hasty coyote]

To be fair, those guys are slower than cera, so trike should stand a good chance at hitting them consistently.

Tho yeah trike is def a bit underwhelming atm

[untold coyote]

Is allo gonna be slow?

I thought it was decently fast?

[hasty coyote]

Slower than cera, faster than Diablo

[neon willow]

Please re-read what I wrote - I wasn't arguing that stego should try to be as tanky as a trike, and in fact I think we're kind of on the same page in terms of stego needing to be better at different things than trike. In fact, my point was that trike does excel with a very tanky style of play, which stego could contrast by NOT being very tank focused

[hasty coyote]

Else cera dies on sight to allos or allos die on sight to diablos respectively

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but the "free window" when something big attacks is so easy to take advantage off. Like maias attack was so slow, even my dumb ass used it for free attacks. Now imagine when people start getting better

[untold coyote]

Steg should definitely be more zoner-y or bruiser-y

Decent mobility for its size, less health than a "tanky" dino, and decently heavy hitting

If they need to remove a couple hundred points of damage for swings to fit that who cares? It's still dangerous.

[neon willow]

Oop someone already got it

[hasty coyote]

“When people start getting better” you make me laugh

I agree we probably need to fully wait and see how it plays out, but trike does have that as a major weakness.

[golden coral]

Sorry, a bit tired, planning to sleep very soon. And yeah, I think we're more or less on the same page, I was mostly pointing out that even if you did give them both the exact same weight for example, the multipliers would still make trike way tankier than stego.

Especially with added sparring/block if that adds to the reduction(?)

[hasty coyote]

Issue is, Rex. Stego needs that damage to stop Rex from just mauling it. So unless you make stego faster than Rex, it needs to be able to stop a Rex.

[golden coral]

From what I've seen, trike seems to move pretty fast in "sparring", but maybe that's been changed, or it just looks fast because trike is big or something

[golden coral]

Does it though, if stego could swing on the move?

[obtuse ocean]

lol whats funny with that, people start understanding range etc

[hasty coyote]

Trike did get its walk speed nerf so it depends on when you saw it. They used to be able to walk down stegos.

[obtuse ocean]

Why should stego be able to defend itself from a rex ?

if it can run walk away, ofc

[hasty coyote]

Unless you make the moving swing deal heavy damage, Rex just tanks it and deals more damage back.

[untold coyote]

I think rex will be able to run down stegs

[obtuse ocean]

Yea if its close, but not if the stego see the rex before an ambush

[golden coral]

Oh that I know of, not sure if it affected sparring stance too

[golden coral]

Not if it can't get to the head, it wouldn't? Also depends on how much damage rex and stego respectively would deal at that point

[hasty coyote]

Because I it likely won’t. Iirc last we saw of Rex it was 30 kph and had a murder sprint, stego is 26kph. Unless you want there to be a like 100meter instant death range around a Rex, stego needs to be able to fend it off.

[golden coral]

Depends on how far away, and how persistent the rex might be, stego isn't going to get very far very fast, or hide very easily

[neon willow]

That's the real question. Do we know if adult rex will be faster or slower than stego? How about stamina consumption

[hasty coyote]

Stego would have to deal over 1.5x Rex’s dps to not just get face tanked.

[obtuse ocean]

Depends on stamina drain to, agree if the rex see a stego from 100 meter it should def be able to easy run or walk away

[golden coral]

Which does still mean rex needs to get to stego face

And depending on stego size, damage could be lowered

[obtuse ocean]

never lower dmg in evrima, its already pathetic low. Worste then pot lol

[golden coral]

What? And here most people think stego does too much damage xD

[hasty coyote]

Stegos can def be lowered (as long as it gets enough compensation) without issue, stego has INSANE damage for its size

[obtuse ocean]

The fact that i can facetank a trike as cera says it all lol

[untold coyote]

exactly

[golden coral]

Wouldn't it just knock you down and then finish you off? xD

[hasty coyote]

Trike also just has very low damage for its size

[obtuse ocean]

i hope so , but still. It should just be dead, you facetank a trike you deserve to just die when ur that small lol

It litterly says dont facetank me

[hasty coyote]

Cera does die tho. (Idk the exact damage numbers but extrapolating from Diablo with trike’s damage stat of 600) a flip should deal 300, and then 2 base attacks while you’re knocked down deal another 1200. That’s 1500-2100 damage (no-all headshots) so you should die from it lol.

[crystal stream]

How do you guys feel about decreasing the time it takes for a carno to recover from a stun or knock down to better match its smaller build and play style

[hasty coyote]

Why? If you got stunned as a carno you made a mistake and deserve the punishment the same as anything else.

[crystal stream]

Carnos stun is stupid long compared to a lot of the other roster

For example cera witch is heavier gets up in half the time same with teno

[hasty coyote]

Wait are you referring to knockdown or stun?

[crystal stream]

Prob knock down Carno has a dumb animation for both where he just stands there and gives the opponent free hits

[crystal stream]

Carno should still get knockdown and stun in just saying they should decrease the time it takes for a carno mean p recover

[hasty coyote]

That I can agree with purely because carno’s knockdown is slightly longer than most other Dinos. Stuns and knockdowns do need to be standardized. Else we get this

[crystal stream]

Yeah I do hope they fix the issue with the animation tho it’s like the animation plays of him getting up then he just stands there same with stun to

[hasty coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778350416831709314/1335474387591368764/carno_funny_theisle.gif

[elfin night]

Wasn’t that fixed in HT?

[hasty coyote]

they said it was, but I have still heard of people getting stunlocked

[elfin night]

Damn

[viscid mica]

@tepid reef they did

[keen plover]

Not sure about that. Carno just had an insanely long knockdown bug. Like most playables did in the HT. It was down like 2x the length of livebuild carno. It's likely the same as livebuild now

[rapid flume]

@random stump they buffed the stamina on the HT

[random stump]

carnos?

[worthy steeple]

yes

[random stump]

thank god

[thorn mountain]

yes

[dusky surge]

@compact cypress fractures aren't chance based

and you can't reduce the chance to leg fracture, if it hits the leg, it fractures the leg

[compact cypress]

it could be

[dusky surge]

it shouldn't be lol

fractures are based on a unique health system

you hit certain limbs with blunt damage moves to fracture them

making them chance based makes them utterly awful and far less engaging

also why tf would you buff cera charged bite LMAO

[compact cypress]

not buff in general.....but small dinos like raptor dillo should get critical if carno cera bites or thrash them once...this would make pack engagement a bit 50/50

same for dibnle maia etc

[dusky surge]

i would rather the instant vomit

that sounds less unfair

than having cera's strongest move also do knockdowns which it can combo into because you're entirely immobile

[compact cypress]

omnis do to small dinos

100% kill rate

[dusky surge]

okay? so? that's omni's niche, and the last thing we need is more ways to not be allowed to play the game

[compact cypress]

my suggestion is to make a pack small vs medium dino a bit 50/50

[dusky surge]

cerato already is fine against pack dinos tho

a single fully charged bite puts raptor at critical health, and vomits them. You can literally then just follow up with a regular bite and the raptor instadies

[compact cypress]

thats a head shot ....you need charge bite plus 2, 3 bites to put down adult raptor

[dusky surge]

no, not a headshot

[compact cypress]

i have myself survived omni cera encounter

[dusky surge]

charged bite does 350 damage. regular bite does 150 damage. raptor has 450 HP

350 + 150 = 500, which is more than 450

the raptor dies

unless the cera screws up

[compact cypress]

unless a bug.... interesting

[dusky surge]

i said nothing about a bug

its just the cera screwing up the combo

nothing to do with bugs, everything to do with skill

[compact cypress]

i have survived charge bite plus two bites from cera adult

as a omni

that does not make sense...maybe a bug

[worthy steeple]

hitboxes

sometimes it looks like body shot but it is in fact tail hit or something

[compact cypress]

seems so

[worthy steeple]

yeah.. it’s weird sometimes.. like omnis surviving 3 teno kicks somehow

or dilos surviving tail slam+2 headhot kicks

math is just not mathing

[dusky surge]

@tender nebula carno doesn’t need more speed at all. It can already exceed the speed of 1.8 ton Carno considerably (also it’s getting more stam in the next update)

[tender nebula]

Fair enough

How fast is carno while charging if you have any idea

[dusky surge]

59.4km/hr.

almost 60

With speed muts, you exceed 60

[tender nebula]

💀

[dusky surge]

Faster than galli lol

[tender nebula]

I thought it was 55.4 km/h guess I was wrong

[dusky surge]

Nah, that’s galli’s top speed

[tender nebula]

By alot

With speed mut?

I thought galli was 49.7 km/h

[keen plover]

erm! old carno was faster in charge!

[tender nebula]

Pretty sure carnos charge after update 6 didn’t give you any speed might be wrong though.

[keen plover]

It did. It wasn't anything crazy but you ran at 61km/h~, even faster with speed mutation

[tender nebula]

Damn, they really did carno dirty

[keen plover]

It's really good in groups still at least

But yeah Carno lost speed, damage and HP

[tender nebula]

I miss when u didn’t need to hold rmb for a specific amount of time to knock down stuff

[keen plover]

Real

Well honestly I think some run up is fine. I just think it's too long

It should still be reactable

[tender nebula]

what update do you think made carno the most balanced

[keen plover]

Update 4.5-5

[tender nebula]

Was gonna say the same thing lmao

Down size was completely unnecessary tbh

[keen plover]

Really capable solo hunter.

[tender nebula]

Real

[keen plover]

Tbf that carno would maul cerato and dilo

It wouldn't work in the current game

Although dilo gets mauled anyways solo lol

[tender nebula]

It’s supposed to maul dilo I don’t think it should do the same to cera

anything below 1000kg is supposed to be free food for a carno

[keen plover]

Carno's issues stem from it being a pretty mid solo dino. Every small game you face are going to be in groups. Carno is mid at facing more than one target.

Like you can at least escape so it isn't all that bad but a pair of good raptors, dilos, pachys and gallis just beat you out

[tender nebula]

Maybe not gallis and pachys but def dilos and raptors

I miss pachys stun

[keen plover]

I mean you'll end up completely crippled by 2 pachys.

[tender nebula]

It’s really easy to dodge pachys

[keen plover]

Not a good pachy. I don't struggle hitting carnos since I'm willing to tank a charge for a fracture

Well when in a group at least

[tender nebula]

I would tank a charge for a fracture but not a knock down for a fracture

[keen plover]

Of course but you can roughly tell when a carno is able to knock u

Regardless carno is really good 1 v 1 vs small game. Any more and it struggles.

Where previously you had the damage and knockdowns to run in and snag a kill and dip

[tender nebula]

It can 2v1 any small game except dilo but yeah I get your point.

[keen plover]

It can fight them but it can't hunt them if that makes sense

Like if you play defensively you can keep up with them. But actively going after them is a mistake

[tender nebula]

I still don’t get how you say carno struggles with galli

[keen plover]

They can just dip tbf

You don't have the damage or knockdown to hunt them

solo galli dies sure. 2 though? gl

Also 3 gallis = dead carno. I do it constantly even on test servers

[tender nebula]

2?? A good carno can easily kill atleast 4

[keen plover]

Nah as in you can't hunt them

Like they'll tank your damage and run off

[tender nebula]

You can just trade charges for kicks lol

It takes 3 alt bites for a galli to die

[keen plover]

You jump kick lol. That hitbox is absurd

[tender nebula]

galli has 425 health remember that

[tender nebula]

Carnos charge hitbox is currently the most OP thing in the game.

[keen plover]

You have one galli in front while the other ones boost behind the carno. You don't run into it head on

[tender nebula]

Good luck dodging a carno with more than 100 ping

[keen plover]

I haven't struggled against a carno in a galli trio since it could tap ram knockdown

[tender nebula]

Galli TOP speed is 55 kmh that means with the group speed buff and speed mutations

carno can easily go over 60 kmh with the charge and speed muts

[steep gazelle]

@random stump Carno had his stam on charge and in normal race improved by +25s in the hordtest

[tender nebula]

25s is crazy im ngl

[keen plover]

No. Galli is 58.2km/h with speed mutation and it can run at 73km/h with the group boost (speed mutation stacked)

[tender nebula]

huge buff

[steep gazelle]

Not is

Carno needed this

[tender nebula]

it did but I thought maybe 10s 15 at max. 25s is CRAZY

[steep gazelle]

I don't see a problem with that

[tender nebula]

I don’t either

[steep gazelle]

Just adjust the charge's hitbox a little and it will be perfect

[tender nebula]

You missed the damage weight buff

1.3T is a wild downsize

[keen plover]

Nah size buff isn't necessary imo

[steep gazelle]

I actually still prefer the old Carno

But the devs won't back down, so just accept it.

[tender nebula]

Maybe just maybe

1.8T carno in a group would actually stand a chance when fighting an allo

[steep gazelle]

Seeing as Carno received 3 buffs in the hordtest he definitely won't go back to how he was

[tender nebula]

Fair

[steep gazelle]

I also agree that Carno should be able to take on Allos, but it looks like Allo will basically be a 2600kg omni

Allo probably be able to pin smaller things too. Not at all fair and balanced but there's nothing we can do...

[tender nebula]

So basically a bigger Omni..

balanced

[signal hearth]

#balance-feedback message

Popping a like on this because a big difference in size SHOULD mean the much smaller Dino should be at risk of getting a fracture if hit by a powerful bite/swing.

I can see it being easily abused and huge apexes start bullying everything by handing out fractures, but I think that's why this discussion section exists; to help iron out any wrinkles in the ideas 🙂

[obtuse ocean]

Whats wrong with that ? You prob have all the tools to not let it happend

[slim dragon]

Realistically yes
But neither deino or carno have a need for fractures, not with how fractures work right now

[dusky surge]

also the suggestion just

fundamentally doesn't understand how fractues WORK as a mechanic

[signal hearth]

Oh 100%, fractures would need to be reworked before that should be implemented, but as a concept alone I think it's a good idea that makes sense. 🙂

[dusky surge]

no i mean, literally, the dude who wrote that suggestion doesn't know how fractures work

also, i don't believe giving fractures to that many animals is a great idea

[signal hearth]

That's fair, I can't claim to be much more knowledgeable to be honest 🤣

Seems this is, at least for now, a case of 'videogame logic'- since if everything was able to cause fractures as long as they have an overwhelming size advantage the level of mechanic abuse and toxic behaviour would be ridiculous.

Players are the hardest thing to balance, lol

[slim dragon]

I'd be fine with pretty much everything dealing a small amount of fracture damage if we had tiered fractures

But as it is now, either fracture damage is low enough that it never causes a fracture and is therefore useless, either it is high enough to be able to cause fractures but ends up being an insane buff

[elfin night]

@compact cypress fractures no longer work by “chances” bruv. You deal a hidden value of fracture damage and if it is more than the target’s fracture health, they get the respective fracture

Also Maia, teno, trike, dibble, carno and especially deino don’t need that at all. It is either a perfect way to make them overpowered or it simply doesn’t fit their role/kit at all

And nerfing pachy bruh 😭

[iron tree]

How the hell would dibble fracture anyway

Or trike

[elfin night]

I mean

If a charging bison can fracture bones and cause internal injuries on most other animals it coexists with

Dunno why a trike or a dibble wouldn’t, even with something like a horn plunging into something’s rib cage and pushing two broken ribs into the viscera

Or just breaking a leg or causing a commotion due to sheer momentum

Still unnecessary and broken

[tropic horizon]

Nerfing pachy is insane

[iron tree]

Realistically they'd just impale everything

[elfin night]

Also it’s just contradicting to me bruv

Assuming that fracture had a chance (which it absolutely doesn’t), then increasing its chance of happening would do nothing than to make up for an alleged nerf to instant leg breaks

A nerfn’t

You cannot fracture as easily but you can fracture more easily

[hasty coyote]

nah, that is 100% a nerf, leg is infinitely more strong than body fracture. One increases stam consumption (basically is only useful after 30 seconds or more), the other reduces speed AND disables most attacks (immediate escape or massive combat boost).

[elfin night]

I agree, misread it because I was baffled since the start

So I found it perfectly believable that this guy would have said increased chance to ALL fractures. My bad lol

Still laughable to nerf pachy and to give it a buff that cannot be applied since it has never been a chance in evrima

[hasty coyote]

yeah that suggestion is wild: add something already in the game, give 6 dinosaurs fractures, make cera even more oppressive, and nerf pachy

[steep gazelle]

Imagine you dying because an Allo came close to you and pressed a simple button. A Carno? Cerato? Tenonto? Allo 55% and with a fairly high speed will pin you down and kill you without difficulty. An 80% dibble? An Allo will pin you and throw away all your growth without difficulty... Think that's balanced?

[blissful geode]

This is why its more complicated to add the bigger dinos sadly

[steep gazelle]

In my opinion Allo should not have Pin, only the grapple

Why play with other dinos if you can play with something that is strong, has a lot of life, has good speed and kills most things with just one click?

[thorn mountain]

pin just shouldn't be a thing imo

[steep gazelle]

Allo has to be very well refined by the devs so it doesn't come horribly broken and OP, but I'm not going to get my hopes up about that

[thorn mountain]

its going to be broken and OP lol theres no middle carnivore in-between allo and carno and cerato

[steep gazelle]

Having it only for Omni/Troodon is not that problematic, just add a mechanic so the victim has a chance to escape

[thorn mountain]

so it will just be the apex cause its fast and it has a grapple

[thorn mountain]

yeah I would say just allow the thing to bite off the raptors to make them jump off

[steep gazelle]

Unfortunately, Op will come, and everyone knows about it. Even though it's clear in the hordtest, I bet they still won't change anything, since Allo is everyone's favorite (even though there's nothing unique about her)

[thorn mountain]

its more of the community begging for stuff to get nerfed (like carno) and now people are asking for it to get buffed. why? its because the devs actually listen to the community and the community itself just not knowing what they want and them thinking on the spot. If they nerf something to how the community wants it will get gutted and no one or alot less players will play it

[steep gazelle]

I also hope Rex can't pin unless he's at 100% growth.

[thorn mountain]

fr

[steep gazelle]

Imagine a rex running after you, running at 55km and being able to pin you

[thorn mountain]

or atleast like 80%

[steep gazelle]

I hope the devs think so too

[hasty coyote]

even with omnis its incredibly harsh. everything smaller literally can not exist where there are omnis, omnis are fast, agile, and 1-shot them. Its sadly easier to deal with a carno than an omni, because at least carno is inagile and takes multiple hits to kill. Omni just spams right click with no penalty until it hits, then it wins.

[viscid mica]

@random stump 100% cheaters

[elfin night]

10000% agree

I once saw a fresh adult omni missing 10-12 pounces and still winning against a troodon who was dodging, biting and even landing a few pounces

So fair and skillful

And obviously the pin was from meters away on the tail

[hasty coyote]

to be fair, even an alt bite would kill the troodon

[elfin night]

No one cares about omni pin because almost everyone is playing omni or larger

[hasty coyote]

the pin killing there is not the issue, tho latency makes them hit from very far away

[elfin night]

Well yeah, better example

350kg omni vs 425kg galli? Fair but tough fight that is somewhat in favor of the galli all things considered but the Omni still can outmaneuver and win or deal a lot of damage with the pounce

400kg omni vs 425kg galli? You just can’t win as galli, you’re better off not existing in the same plane of reality as the omni

[viscid mica]

Omni pin is fine due to its size as I’ve said many a times everything smaller has tools to avoid them and or is intended too

[hasty coyote]

yeah I really dont see why people think omni NEEDS to pin gali, a single bleed pounce would be enough to bleed a gali if it tried to run far.

[elfin night]

It’s still cringe as hell that you got example can fight a carno as an omni or a teno as a cera

But if you are 1kg lighter than an omni it is practically 100% unwinnable, and against other Omnis it boils down to whoever presses rmb first

Maybe with the cannibal mutation coming back Omni players will wake up and realize how laughably broken pinning is

[viscid mica]

You do realize the omni that pins takes more damage than the omni that gets pinned right

[hasty coyote]

ok then, why not do the same for carno? Why shouldnt carno be able to pin anything smaller than itself

[elfin night]

The omni counterplay isn’t interesting. It is just not existing near them. It sucks

[viscid mica]

Size

[elfin night]

False. Actual misinformation

[viscid mica]

[hasty coyote]

doesnt matter when you have more hp

[elfin night]

If you pin an omni you get like yellow damage and a bit of blood loss

[hasty coyote]

and?

everything smaller than carno has the tools to escape it

[viscid mica]

That’s it size

[viscid mica]

False

Speed

[hasty coyote]

by your exact same logic, they do

[elfin night]

Bruh 😭 cannibal Omni is so easy

You 100% one tap other Omnis and you 100% not die

[viscid mica]

Carno is fast as balls

[elfin night]

Maybe there was a time where retaliation did more damage but currently it is just a consolation prize

[hasty coyote]

dryo and troodon are slower than omni

[elfin night]

Ive pinned so many Omnis who were about my size or even marginally larger and they just die

[viscid mica]

I’ll have to see if it’s changed

[elfin night]

At most I hit orange heath

[hasty coyote]

actually everything smaller than omni is slower

[viscid mica]

Troodon is the same speed, dryo is supposed to have burrow

[elfin night]

It is so overpowered that you can literally just rmb one tap an equal with no setup

[viscid mica]

I’ll run a cani omni and see

But if I die first pin imma flip

As I said thou the primary reason is size and TTG( time to grow)

[elfin night]

You won’t unless you pin an Omni that is much larger or a troodon if you are like a 100kg juvi

Trust

[viscid mica]

Omni isn’t insta pinning stuff that takes any real amount of time to grow most of the stuff are well under 2hours galli is probably the most questionable but even then galli is fast as all hell and would smoke omni if omni couldn’t pin it

[elfin night]

I’ve been playing canni omni a lot and bruh 😭 😭 😭

Pinning is the single most no skill mechanic in the entire game. I actually think that omni vs anything its weight or less takes so much less skill to use than cera

[viscid mica]

I’ll find out

[hasty coyote]

nope, troodon is 45 omni is 46.8
and dryo having burrow doesnt save it unless its less than 20m from the burrow at all times.

Omni has the same matchups against things smaller as carno does against stuff like dilo and omni. So why is it ok that omni has pin but carno doesnt 1-shot anything smaller either?

[viscid mica]

Mans is on every omnis blacklist

[elfin night]

I hate them

[viscid mica]

To be fair that’s why dryo isn’t the fastest in the world ya are supposed to set up burrows on the move

[hasty coyote]

so small tiers just deserve to die on sight because they're small? very good way to get players to play them

[elfin night]

I hate them so much

I enjoy playing some large animals every now and then but my true love are tiny tiers

And it just sucks.

As a troodon I can mess with a 400kg carno or even a 1000kg dibble

But a 150kg omni is too much

[viscid mica]

And 1km difference when you can vanish into bushes even with bright ah skin

[viscid mica]

Having to avoid 1 playable isn’t the end of the world

One of my favourite playables is troodon and I’ve died to omnis a grand total of twice

[thorn mountain]

cera can actually chase down a carno (live build)

[hasty coyote]

by that logic, lets just leave dilo with op clone spam, its only 1 dino

[viscid mica]

Elaborate how

[thorn mountain]

cera has a little bit more stam. its trot is faster than a carnos, if it tracks it will catch up

[viscid mica]

Dilo is over tuned for sure

[elfin night]

It’s still garbage when that playable has no business doing that and all it needs is one button

[hasty coyote]

yeah, so just leave it. its just 1 dino people have to avoid at night.

[viscid mica]

I didn’t see him mention he was bleeding so maybe if he was and they caught his trail

[viscid mica]

Too fast

[elfin night]

It’s like giving carno big game hunting tools. It has no business doing that

But just avoid carnos, bro, don’t exist near them if you are a teno

(Hypothetical, I know it obviously is very different rn)

[thorn mountain]

I mean you can get tracks without them bleeding

[viscid mica]

herrera will have to avoid Kentro ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[elfin night]

20cm per second faster than omni

[viscid mica]

Omni or dilo tend to have to avoid pachy if they aren’t fully grouped up

[hasty coyote]

by your logic, its just 1 dino thats faster, so wheres the issue in just having to avoid it?

[crimson crater]

that’s 1 matchup

[viscid mica]

Well over 2.5k in damage from 1 Dino isn’t reasonable

[viscid mica]

I can name more if you want me too

My point is not everything needs to have a reasonable change against everything else

Having to avoid something isn’t the end of the world

[elfin night]

One unfavorable matchup is okay

But every creature omni sized or below doesn’t have an unfavorable matchup, it has an UNWINNABLE one no matter who they are: (some are obvious but I will still list all of them)

Hypsi
Troodon
Homalo
Dryo
Beipi
Austro(?)
Herra
Rugops
Mono
Proto
Galli
Minmi
Ovi
Ptera
Ava
OMNI!!! (Whoever does rmb first wins)

[hasty coyote]

well whats the difference between it an omni? in both instances, you get hit once by a faster dino and lose your dino?

[crimson crater]

a whole tier of playables ain’t the same though,that’s just crazy

[elfin night]

It’s not like you having a single very bad matchup. It’s just being forced to move elsewhere because you can’t do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g about Omnis, even damn juveniles in some cases

Children Omnis are more dangerous to troodons, herras, dryos and beipis than fg carnos or dilos

Does that sound right?

[crimson crater]

i love how a little ratpor can pose a much bigger threat than carno (the thing designed to eradicate you)

[hasty coyote]

genuinely the only argument for omni keeping pin basically summarizes to "small tiers dont matter" Like I'd take a pin nerf and a bite speed increase every single time, becuase at least then omni has to slightly work for the kill and not flat out 1-shot

[viscid mica]

To be fair hypsi is supposed to climb
Troodon is half invisible
I don’t know how big Hamolo is as some say small some say dilo sized
Dryo is supposed to burrow
Beipi can swim
Austro better be faster
Herrera can climb
Ain’t rugops rather large for the smalls?
Don’t know what mono is
Proto don’t know the size or abilities
Galli goes Mach Jesus
Ovi better be faster
Pt can fly
Ava is not gonna be under 500 it better not
Again I need to double check omni as it used to be the pinned always won

[elfin night]

It’s gonna be so fun and engaging when a fg omni just comes and pins your elder omni and kills it

[keen plover]

💀

[viscid mica]

If you elder omni isn’t bigger that would be a blunder

[keen plover]

A 275kg omni has been able to pin a fg one since forever. I forgot the cut off but I used to do it all the time in update 4

[hasty coyote]

if elder omni is bigger, then its gonna pin pachy

[keen plover]

Faster, more stam and can pin a fg. Peak

[viscid mica]

Yes

Pachy needs a buff it’s slow as balls

Pachy whole kit needs a rework

[hasty coyote]

ok I really dont think I can change your mind if you thing PACHY getting pinned is even remotely fair

[viscid mica]

I don’t pachy is too weak rn

[elfin night]

No matter how much you buff it, if an Omni can just tap rmb and win even while you are charging a ram

[viscid mica]

Not that elder omni will be op

Well it will be but that’s beyond the point elders are supposed to be extra spicy

[elfin night]

Who cares about pachy buffs when it just gets pinned and none of that matters

[steep gazelle]

I already lost my Herrera 100% to an Omni that probably wasn't even 30% xd

[hasty coyote]

even if you it, it just gets up and pins after with its stun immunity, its worse than the current dilo matchup

[steep gazelle]

Just press a button and that's it...

[viscid mica]

Fair also to be fair if a omni lands a grapple your basically dead as you move a grand total of 8kmph

[hasty coyote]

bucking:

[viscid mica]

True but sense it’s chance based have fun

[elfin night]

You can still kill slightly larger Omnis. So I am assuming that unless they have INSANE retaliation, some early to mid elders are still gonna get pinned to death by cannibals

And conversely, it’s gonna be so fun and interesting to fight elder Omnis if you are a cannibal because one mistake and you get pinned and die.

God, pinning is such a fun, fair and well designed mechanic with no cracks in its design whatsoever

[hasty coyote]

even more reason omni's pounce and pin are poorly implemented

still though, it takes 2 to kill a pachy

[viscid mica]

To be fair if they did change the pin omni to omni where the pinner wins now that’s a blunder imo

[viscid mica]

That’s bucking not pins problem

I can’t imagine allo won’t have a similar cause and effect

[viscid mica]

2 to pin yes

1 to kill if the bucking gods don’t favour you

[hasty coyote]

no, I was referring to it taking 2 pounces to kill a pachy, since you will buck off the omni before it deals enough damage to kill

[viscid mica]

Ah yes fair

[elfin night]

It’s not just that it wins

It’s not even hard. You end at like yellow health, so stupid

[viscid mica]

Pachy can also 2 tap a omni with alt attacks so like just do that XD

[viscid mica]

I’ll check later today

I guess my opinion primarily comes from the fact that as tiny tiers I’m really not dying to omnis all that often

[hasty coyote]

you overestimate alts damage unless you're getting headshots

[golden coral]

@elfin night The 1kg being if you can pin or not is a bit silly, what if there was a stam drain of the pin based on how much more than the target the omni weights, up until the max?

[viscid mica]

Probably am usually I go for a ram then alt and boom soul evicted

[viscid mica]

The math is stuff 101% if immune to pin and falls under grapple

So if your 1% bigger than omni (450) you can’t be pinned

[elfin night]

What if pinning either took skill or just got removed?

[golden coral]

Yeah, but the other way around, is the point. You can pin if you're the right weight, but then the effectiveness of the pin depends on your size and the target size

[viscid mica]

True

[golden coral]

When it comes to stamina drain, so if you're large enough, but like 10kg more or so, you can pin, but you'll run out of stam a lot faster, so you'll have to finish it outside of pin, whereas if you're sufficiently larger, you can finish it off with pin

[viscid mica]

Could help smaller stuff as the omni would need enough stam to complete the kill

[hasty coyote]

that would highly depend on how the "max and min" are scaled. Pin either becomes actively detrimental on some targets, or it changes nothing but makes omni burn less stam. I personally want a break-out mechanic for pin that allows pin to still be a strong attack, but not flat out 1-shot everything smaller. Like this: #balance-feedback message

[golden coral]

Well yes, but how about we work with what we have. Unless yu think the devs would scrap the mechanic, but I imagine they do want pin in, JP raptor, it's cool, all of that. And while you could probably make it take more skill, I'm personally not sure how right now. Same with deino lunge, though I've seen a few suggestions, but most seem to be disliked.

[crimson crater]

reducing the hitbox would be a good start

[viscid mica]

Would it apply to larger targets for grapple?

[hasty coyote]

read the start again " (not grapple with multiple omni, one omni pinning) "

[viscid mica]

Ah gotcha then sounds great

[elfin night]

Reducing the hitbox, giving retaliation to everyone (although depends, numbers would vary and no retaliation when pinning something from behind seems fair), making pounce not a frame 1 move, and bringing back the punishment animation for missing

[crimson crater]

i agree except for the last part, it would just make omni feel clunky to use

i’d rather want higher stamina penalty

[elfin night]

Fair

I flow with that poke poke wink

[viscid mica]

So nuke omni?
Sure fix the tail pins, maybe frame 1 but it’s apart of the utility that it can be thrown out so quick

But give it pachy stun? That’s why pachy is unplayable or a large contributor your doing to much that one

[hasty coyote]

could make missing a pounce instead slow down omni a bit for a brief moment. That way it isnt a flat out stun, but still a recovery time

[vale brook]

yah id do that

especially with how valuable pounce is in HT

being able to stay on the side of an animal for 2+ minutes while draining its stam is insane lol (with minimalistic drain stam on yourself)

[worthy steeple]

wdym draining its stam?

pounce now passively drains stam?

[steep gazelle]

Omni's neutral pounce and Troodon's pounce have always had this

It just wasn't used much because the Omni stam drained like the other 2 pounces.

[cosmic pelican]

Moving with a pouncer drains your stamina at the same pace sprinting would

[hasty coyote]

always has been (not always but has been a mechanic for a long while)

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

what original state? the one where it couldnt grab stegos at all? or the one where it grew to FG in 3 hours?

[compact cypress]

its still not that op like a stego as a fg....also fg gameplay is much more difficult and luck based rather than a stego fg who can chill and dance by the water

if you want deino to be weak why keep such a long growth time etc....its mostly gonna eat fish and other deinos ....its a water rex irl but u make a weak dino of it but keep huge growth time but underpowered gameplay....u say grabbing dinos is unfair....it has to be lucky to even see a dino drinking

[vale brook]

"u say grabbing dinos unfair"

what

and "under powered gameplay"

there are like 8 dinosaurs out of 55 that deinosuchus can not grab lol

[golden coral]

But it's not a water rex in the game, it never was, and isn't intended to be.

[vale brook]

^

[compact cypress]

so reduce growth time as well etc

[golden coral]

Sure, there were times it could handle a stego easy, but that was mostly due to .... not bugged, but weird interactions with things

[compact cypress]

i did not ask for more damage etc or health

[vale brook]

why, when its the second strongest animal in the water?

[golden coral]

Why, it's still 8T + bleed resist, if that's still a thing, plus the lunge/grab, plus 500 damage which is almost as high as trike

[vale brook]

should water apexes have an artifically less difficult time reaching that status?

[golden coral]

If you want a shorter growth deino, you would have to downsize it

[compact cypress]

is there any water animals for adult deinosucus?....bepi would not even show in stomach after eating

water apex lol...its the only water dino in existence...

[vale brook]

let me rephrase

why would we reduce its growth time when it will be the second strongest thing in the roster when it comes to aquatic gameplay in the final roster

[compact cypress]

then change it back when u add semi aquatics completely

[golden coral]

And it's overall safer than stego, currently and will remain so until we get spino, since bary probably isn't going to take on an adult deino, though sucho might

[vale brook]

so keep flip flopping playables?

until we just... find something that sticks?

[compact cypress]

yes...for balance

[golden coral]

Then you'd also have to downsize it

You're not going to get a playable that can grab things up to 4T (or 6) for 3-4 hours of growth, or at least I doubt it

[vale brook]

but dont you see!! deino needs to be this unmoveable crocodile that even spino runs from!!

[compact cypress]

when is the last time u drank from a deino lake or river....u go to cave or u go to puddles by the lake

[compact cypress]

nerf it back when spino comes

u can make stego op and unkillable for so long

u add dibble and stego where there no solo land predator

[golden coral]

To be fair, personally I do think deino shouldn't outright flee from spino, nor do I think stego should outright flee from trike. I think it'd be more interesting if they could fight back, given the right circumstances, tricking and baiting the stronger opponent, and so on. It should always be preferable to not engage, but it should be doable to engage, if with slim margin of error and little option to change your mind. But I'll leave that for modding and all that.

[compact cypress]

dont make deino unplayable as an adult and expect balance gameplay

[golden coral]

I would drink anywhere, I main stego, you can't grab me, and I'm not silly enough to go swimming, even if I look like I'm covered in a few hundred layers of dust.

[golden coral]

Deino were always more OP and far more unkillable

[vale brook]

stego has never been OP nor unkillable

[golden coral]

You've no case to claim that stego, that had to contend with deino + all the land creatures, that could kill it, was more unkillable than deino that could just go into the river where nothing but another deino or multiple could threaten it.

[compact cypress]

which solo dino can take on stego in official game ?

[golden coral]

Which solo dino can take on deino, more importantly, which solo dino can force an engagement with a deino?

Stegos can and do hunt other stegos for that matter

[compact cypress]

stego

[golden coral]

Except it can't force an engagement at all, you never have to even risk it

[compact cypress]

its not forced upon or necessary

[vale brook]

diablo can do it fairly easily, trike can as well.

but also, you've moved the goalpost lol. being unkillable by a solo animal and being unkillable in general are different things lol

[golden coral]

You can, almost, sit under a stegos nose in the water and it won't know

Granted, water clarity these days, but on old map

[vale brook]

raptor packs can shred stego. so can dilo, large troodon packs, and a decent cerato group

its almost like (and this is crazy) you cant just play willy nilly with the 6 ton animal with 3 foot spikes on its tail

[compact cypress]

official vs ht.....stego stays op for 2.5 years and deino gets nerf to oblivion

[golden coral]

Tenos can, I think, still, even if probably more dangerous now, dibbles can, trike certainly can but not force the engagement, and there's probably some more that can, given sufficient determination.

[vale brook]

explain how its op

"it can 1 shot cerato" its meant to be defending itself from things like rex, no duh. try again

[golden coral]

It still happens, and if you just want to talk what can kill it, another stego do count

[compact cypress]

dont bring up packs....herbis pack with each other more often....i said solo

deino vs deino is forced upon

[vale brook]

you quite literally did not bring up being solo until i pointed out stego is not unkillable or OP lol

nvm, believe what you want lol.

[golden coral]

Stego never were that OP, deino were the better playable overall. And deino will still be safer than stego with the coming playables

[compact cypress]

yes ...solo vs solo....pack va pack...should be balanced

[golden coral]

Allo, can go for stego, rex, can go for stego, trike, can bully stego

[compact cypress]

what after 2 more years

[golden coral]

None of them can go after a deino, sure they can swim out there, but.... just dive, and laugh at them running out of stam

Or if they are aggro enough and you got a partner, you could try to body block them and see if you can make them drown

[compact cypress]

you realise deino adults has a literal food issue

which u cant escape from how well you play

[golden coral]

Okay, maybe they do, I'm not up to date on how good or bad it is, but it's also a carni, so yes it's going to struggle more than the herbi, even if herbis have it too good with grazing, or so I've heard

But that's another issue entirely

That has nothing to do with how well something else can kill you in the game

[compact cypress]

i am addressing deino food issue possible fixes

[golden coral]

But then why are we arguing over if deino or stego is OP or not, or if something can kill them. If it's a food issue, then we should be arguing over why there is a lack of food, and how to change that. And I imagine the issue comes down to how deino works. Since there's little engagement or interaction, everyone goes to safe spots, because the alternative is RNG death, more or less.

And a solution there would require a rework on how deino works, and hunts, that would somehow allow for proper escape, if played well, but also then the removal of safe drinking spots, so it comes down more to the player than the terrain if you will survive the deino or not.

[faint timber]

As much as I don't want it, we have a lot of safe water locations and this makes denio hunting really difficult.

As for stego, I think stego is still the strongest dinosaur in the game (yes, even trike is stronger I think)

[compact cypress]

deino rework with terrain rework is needed

[dusky surge]

austro better not be faster than omni lol

[viscid mica]

why aint austro finna be smaller?

[dusky surge]

it can also just swim away, i dont see a need to make it faster too

i would assume austro is smaller, yes, but its also aquatic

no need to have it that fast on land too

[viscid mica]

Atleast speed match

Austro don’t need to be slow just cuz

[dusky surge]

eh

i'd be fine if it's slower

[viscid mica]

[dusky surge]

troodon and dryo are slower and no one really cares, and those guys can't use water to easily escape omni

[viscid mica]

I mean troo is practically invisible and dryo is supposed to burrow but rn you can win in a stam match by dodging

[dusky surge]

and austro is supposed to swim

[viscid mica]

Fair fair

I just thought it’d be faster

[dusky surge]

eh, i think that's just way too much going for it

why even stay around the water when you have the agility of a raptor, with the speed of like a dilo

[rapid flume]

easier food, fun

[dusky surge]

eh, just seems like it's an animal without any true weakness or threat

which i find to be a yawnfest

[rapid flume]

I wonder how it'll go getting diets

[viscid mica]

Who said speed like dilo

I was thinking like .2 or 1 at most

You doing too much

[dusky surge]

still too fast imho

[elfin night]

That’s because deino inherently sucks design wise currently

Not because it needs buffing unless you turn it into U6 pseudo kapro

Which isn’t gonna happen

No amount of reasonable buffing will make it not trash without a rework

[crimson crater]

44 km/h austro would be ideal

hell, even lower would work

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message cerato bleed definitely needs some attention

it’s not bad bleeder for sure

especially when it makes something vomit, it’s even more powerful

[signal hearth]

I was wondering about that- is Cera bleed strong or does vomiting make it seem stronger? Or probably more accurately, is it too much with the bonus from causing vomit?

Also, haven't played Cera because there are apparently already too many, so no experience with it at all xD

[crimson crater]

vomiting amplifies it because of the low food and water it inflicts

[signal hearth]

Yeah, I'm aware 🙂 was just wondering aloud if the bleed caused by Cera is actually too strong when taking into account the benefit of making it's prey vomit.

[crimson crater]

eh not really

[worthy steeple]

both, cera bleed is not the strongest but it’s very good, vomit just makes it an actual
bleeder

[worthy steeple]

yeahh

[crimson crater]

you’ll die to the raw damage before the bleed gets you 9 times out of 10

[worthy steeple]

i think we should test the bleed

well when norden is up

[worthy steeple]

that’s for sure lol

[signal hearth]

Comparison against Herra, since it's meant to be the bleeder (at least as far as I understand ^_^)?

[worthy steeple]

i wouldn’t really compare..

cera has above average bleed, but it’s not even close to like teno bleed

tho arguably the best bleeder is beipi👹👹👹

[signal hearth]

Bwuh? For real? XD

[keen plover]

I think it should do deino tier bleed anyways. It's more damage based lol

and yeah teeth difference and whatever

[elfin night]

gitgud

cera has bad bleed!

[cosmic pelican]

It may not ever be up again sadly

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah, beipis bleed infliction is only beaten by omnis pounce

[worthy steeple]

yes

[worthy steeple]

yeah i this so too

[signal hearth]

I was under the impression Herra caused the most bleed per hit. Huh

[keen plover]

No it doesn't. Carno and deino do bad bleed lol

[worthy steeple]

herrera is an ambush predator, its pounce does most bleed, but you can’t really compare it to others

[signal hearth]

You can, you just have to set clear parameters. For example comparing bleed caused over the course of a fight wouldn't suit, since Herra fights so differently to the rest and normally has a decent delay between hits (when using Pounces, at least).
Comparing bleed caused per hit, though, simply to get the basic values without taking the entire fight into account, is certainly possible. 🙂

The main spanner in the gears there, however, would be trying to use that logic to compare anything against Omni Rend Pounce- since (at least as far as I understand it) there aren't any 'hits' taking place during a Rend.

[crimson crater]

pretty sure that stegos bleed is stronger (PS)

[elfin night]

it does

deino and carno just have abysmal bleed

good bleed is something like beipi bleeding a herra in 3 claw swipes

or herra bleeding a galli with a small jump

[elfin night]

for its size, it absolutely is the best bleeder in the game alongside beipi

it's like a rex bleeding out a shant with one hit

or an allo to a trike

and then beipi can bleed things literally 5 times larger than itself with like half a dozen hits

[signal hearth]

Fair play- I didn't realise Beipi was such a savage I'll have to be less skittish with it 😄

[dusky surge]

Beipi’s bleed is hysterical. Play in a group and swipe at that which stray too close to the water, it’s amazing

I’ve heard tales of adult carno’s falling prey to the reworked beipi

[elfin night]

I was once with kingfisher in petits

and we took on like 3 herras

and also a pachy

[dusky surge]

Beipi is going to be SO much more fun when austro and bary are out mark my words

[elfin night]

we were in west rail access pond

just rushing things

short ambushes at the shore before darting back to the water

[elfin night]

beipi and austro wars are gonna be absolute cinema

[dusky surge]

A single swipe is enough to seriously concern an austro

I think beipi will be far better in water than austro, but austro will be better on land than beipi

Beautiful synergy, where they do battle on the shores, much like D-Day, except funny

[elfin night]

if austro cant wallow

but yeah at least it's gonna be like 20% blood lost

[keen plover]

I wouldn't call that bad. Beipi and herrera are literal top tier bleeders

[elfin night]

I will join team beipi on austro ht

[dusky surge]

Also I agree with Bird, cera does not have bad bleed

[elfin night]

well, I had to resort to a fallacious argument

[dusky surge]

Cera has above average bleed imho

[keen plover]

I've come close to bleeding out numerous times even without bacteria

[dusky surge]

Herrera and beipi are disgusting outliers that exist as terrors to those that underestimate them

[elfin night]

I've never bled out to a cera, but some tenos I've had lost like 40% blood in long fights

[elfin night]

also I think troodon bleed got buffed in HT

so it is a fairly decent bleeder for its size now

we need another ultra bleeder besides giga

[rapid flume]

meg

[crimson crater]

nah

[elfin night]

either way, 1600 bleed damage giga would be funny

it should defo bleed things like dibble with one good bite

actually no

2500 bleed seems more fair

[keen plover]

wouldn't even matter at that point

[elfin night]

and then give crazy bleed resist to all apexes

anky with a humble 95% bleed resistance

[keen plover]

no pls 💔

[rapid flume]

doesn't cera have 99% on the ht?

[elfin night]

all adult apexes

[keen plover]

Why though?

[elfin night]

yes lol

[elfin night]

cuz only the weak cry when they bleed

also because I want giga bleeding out tenos and carnos with one bite

[keen plover]

imo rex shouldn't be bleed resistant. It should be looking to end fights quickly

And rely on its higher BP

[elfin night]

30% bleed resist and we call it a deal

well no, 25%

then give cama 60% bleed resist

[dusky surge]

Rex having low/no resistances is actually a super clever weakness for an animal that relies so heavily on overwhelming damage

[worthy steeple]

i wish deino didn’t have bleed resistance

i could do funny things with the beipi pack

[signal hearth]

Deino having bleed resistance just makes sense when you consider crocs (or is it Alligators? Perhaps both, not 100% certain on that) can autonomously cut off circulation to an injured limb/body part.

[dusky surge]

It makes sense (and the thing can’t wallow so yea)

[worthy steeple]

it does, i just wish they didn’t have it👹

large blood pool is enough imo😳

i’m just mad because i once fought fg deino, kicked it like actually million times and it didn’t bleed out

that deino was red health after the fight…

[crimson crater]

a few swings from a stego can bleed it out tbf

[worthy steeple]

stego bleed is wild yeahh

[signal hearth]

Understandably so when you consider it is impaling dudes xD

[dusky surge]

I do wonder if it actually will worry Rex with its sheer bleed

[worthy steeple]

i hope rex won’t have bleed any resistance

[dusky surge]

It shouldn’t tbh

Rex should be all offence, no defence

[signal hearth]

I remember hearing somewhere that Rex was basically a huge scavenger.

[dusky surge]

Spino should be the opposite imho

[dusky surge]

Misinformation that’s been long since disproven

[worthy steeple]

also both trike and stego are bleeders and bleed is a good way to make rex retreat

[signal hearth]

Good to know!

[worthy steeple]

and if it will have bleed resistance.. i mean that just won’t make any sense

[obsidian yacht]

Jack Horner moment

[elfin night]

The final boss of Rex misinformation

[steep gazelle]

@atomic blaze No need to remove maia and dibble, just add dilo and cerato

[atomic blaze]

Or like that yes

[crystal stream]

They should add teno

[steep gazelle]

teno is already on the Carno diet

[crystal stream]

Yeah

Cool

[viscid mica]

@viscid schooner what were you playing against cera pre that bleed post?

[steep gazelle]

probabily xd

[viscid mica]

?

I’m just wondering if it was one of the known heavy bleeders

[hasty coyote]

cera doesnt deal insane bleed, it does solid bleed, but nothing out of the ordinary. However, vomit makes you bleed a LOT more, so suddenly, cera's decent bleed becomes incredibly high.

[viscid mica]

Makes sense real question is why does vomit effect bleed

Y’all bleed when you vomit?

If so please see a doctor it’s worse than you think

[hasty coyote]

its not the vomit that does it, its the fact that vomit lowers your hunger, water, diets, and stam. All of which contribute to you bleeding more

[viscid mica]

AHHHHHH

that’s silly

[hasty coyote]

yeah, it makes sense mechanically, but it makes cera deal a lot more bleed than it should

[steep gazelle]

@compact cypress you really not like carno man xd

[compact cypress]

@steep gazelle you really should understand why carno is less played and the island is filled with only a certain dinos at all times

[steep gazelle]

Dude, I don't like the Carno 1.3t either, but there's nothing we can do about it. Just try to like this carno, especially now that it got some buffs in the hordtest

Carno will be more played when this hordtest is over

You want Carno to be fixed on the "small prey hunter" and that's what he already is

[faint timber]

:/ I want to play carno but the servers are empty

[steep gazelle]

I also want to play with Carno in hordtest, but every time I tried before there were no bots and only trikes on the server

[faint timber]

west accrest food bot

[steep gazelle]

Hopefully there will be some update next week to get players back into the hordtest

[viscid mica]

@digital ore it is the spikes its just a slightly larget bit that it should be

[compact cypress]

will see what happens when it comes to official....but the point is carno is not played frequently by players in official....this is due to its disadvantage like ram damage and biteforce not so much and ceras have advantages over carno in every situation.

it cant hunt small dinos properly in packs and it cant hunt adult teno dibble so well without taking good damage. It can't face cera.

this causes carno gameplay even tougher as solo played happen due to not many carno players this worsen the situation.

solo carno easy prey for raptor, cera , dillo pack....and solo carno cant take on dibble teno alone usually.

as cera , raptor, dillo count has increased significantly solo cera, dillo, raptor is a very rare sight just like carno pack is now days

[steep gazelle]

Well, I don't play with Carno much because his growth time is extremely long, thank goodness it was reduced in the hordtest

but the current Carno is not as bad as you think

[compact cypress]

i play the worst playable in the game for just thrill time to time.....it gives the survival vibe.....

[dusky surge]

you play pachy?

[compact cypress]

yes

i have played every dino...just play the difficult playable more than the op ones such as cera, stego etc

[steep gazelle]

Carnotaurus isn't that bad. You can fight groups of 3-4 omnis and even 4 Dilos that don't know how to play very well (That's what there are most of)

You can even fight Tenonto and Cerato, just by doing bait attacks.

(Solo Carno)

If you are in a group of 3 Carnos you can even deal with 4 ceratos

[compact cypress]

it can take on max 3 raptor or 2 dillo.... anything more you can't escape how skilled you are

[steep gazelle]

Escape?

[compact cypress]

but the carno pack is rare... because of trash solo play

[compact cypress]

what do you want to bleed out fighting

[steep gazelle]

There are quite a few on unofficial servers, especially where there are higher growth rates

[steep gazelle]

Just kill them first, it's not that hard

[compact cypress]

i have killed more carnos with raptors dillo packs of 2,3

[steep gazelle]

Now, if the omnis and dilos players know what they are doing and how to play against Carno, that number drops to 2 omnis and 2 dilos.

[compact cypress]

they will bait you to run atfack while you bleed

while if you are a cera 4 raptor dillos no problem

cera turns more quickly than carno

carno has a long tail

[steep gazelle]

Dilo actually kills Carno easily, quick bite and completely op venom make him really bad to face as Carno

[compact cypress]

most carno die falling off terrain

[steep gazelle]

But if you don't stand still using the alt bite and instead use the charge to gain distance, you can do very well.

[compact cypress]

if you stand to fight in front of 2 raptor dillo...easy to bleed and keep bleeding you out

[steep gazelle]

I'm going to try to grow a Carno in the hordtest tomorrow. Even though there are no players, I think there must be bots

[compact cypress]

i have killed carnos with trodon lol

[steep gazelle]

Well, that's a case of skill for this Carno xd

[compact cypress]

no....slow turn and slow bite is not very good

[steep gazelle]

Charge auto-hit= troodon 💀

[compact cypress]

i just circle around carno

[steep gazelle]

Carno is 15km faster than Troodon, it's not hard to catch up

[compact cypress]

thats why i only engage them when they just got out of a fight xd

[steep gazelle]

But I don't doubt it, although the public branch troodon doesn't have enough stam for that

[compact cypress]

if carno cant run its pretty much dead

[steep gazelle]

Hordtest's troodon is beautiful and fun to play, now you don't have to give 5 pounces and sit down because your stam is gone xd

[compact cypress]

i really want to know how they will balance allo...its just a 2-3 ton raptor

[steep gazelle]

Allo is going to be a huge problem, I hope there is no pin mechanic and only grapple mechanic

The Pin mechanics in general need to be modified, adjusted

[compact cypress]

raptor can already death pin anything equal to their size or just a bit smaller

allo will get a pin....it has a pounce)
/grapple....💥

[worthy steeple]

#balance-feedback message i can agree with bacteria not affecting anything after the first vomit, but venom?

venom should work no matter what

[keen plover]

What do you think is going to happen when allo grapples things like dilo, cera and whatever else

[compact cypress]

venom also causes me to develop immunity..... search it up...same with bacteria

[dusky surge]

again with the realism arguments

dude. the game ain't realistic. stop trying to make it happen

[compact cypress]

this for balance actually how many times do you expect to get poisoned or have vomit....there should be a limit....not like things with venom have less biteforce or etc ...or cause less bleed

[dusky surge]

that would be an entirely unnecessary nerf to Troodon

[compact cypress]

trodon is ok....but dillo is different and cera is completely off charts

[dusky surge]

Troodon having a FOURTEEN MINUTE COOLDOWN on envenomation would make its entire hunting style obsolete

[compact cypress]

The cooldown can start after inflicting 20 trodon bites....3 for dillo...1 for cera etc

[dusky surge]

so you made troodon worthless

and cera/dilo too

20 attacks is not enough as a troo

[compact cypress]

venom stays for 5 min minimum.... average 5x 20 plus bites in between

i said inflicting bites

[dusky surge]

Not for Troodon

Venom stays for like, 30 seconds on Troo

[compact cypress]

so 30 sec after when creatures heals then bite that counts as a venom bite

so 20 venom bites get it

not the bite in between

20 x 30 sec is 10 minutes

plus non venom bite in between so

pretty damn ok

[crimson crater]

with a cool-down of 14 minutes wouldn’t the venom stage reset in that time lol

[cosmic pelican]

The venom would reset 28 times in that time frame 😭

[crimson crater]

#balance-feedback message @spring wave me when the bleeder does immense bleed:

[elfin night]

@vague jetty I’m sorry, but have you tried anything but to run in a straight line when escaping a dilo as omni?

You are basically the same speed, but Omni has the jump, more stamina and infinitely superior agility

@spring wave …duh? Herrera is meant to be a bleeder and also an ambush hunter. It can only land one blow against mildly competent players, so it better be a good one

[vague jetty]

Yes lol including going down steep cliffs into the ocean and they still followed me, uninjured by the fall as well, and I got killed

I've lost them in the forest only to get killed by clones while trying not to die to bleed

[elfin night]

Clone issue

[vague jetty]

The clones didn't track me for miles and off a cliff into the ocean

A pack of about 8 dilos did

But I agree, I hate the clones dealing damage anyway

[viscid mica]

@vague jetty if your playing omni you should know that dilo are dangerous and act accordingly a duo of omni or even solo can easily win the 1v1 or 2v1 by using your amazing agility to dodge it’s very unflatteringly slow turn if it’s a group you should avoid and find shelter like a rock as you said sense dilo are fairly hard to fight

[vague jetty]

Yeah no kidding. Doesn't help when you trip over each other, day or night. I always stick to cover and don't make calls, and if dilos also do the same, you can run into each other in the forest. If they get ONE good bite off, you're already invenomated/bleeding and in trouble.

I don't have issues fighting dilos 1v1, but if I stumble into a pack while on the move, I need the option to escape.

[viscid mica]

Jukes and praying for a good rock

Clones can’t get ya on some rocks that don’t got much flat so

[steep gazelle]

Grapple is different from Pin

Pin is already a huge problem even on the Omni, but see how it will be on something if 2.4t killing anything smaller without any difficulty, just by pressing a single button

[alpine dust]

#balance-feedback message
-# credit to the genius risingmike that made the original

cera buff is not needed in any way

[steep gazelle]

Silence, the pale emperor is cooking 🔥🔥🔥

[alpine dust]

not really i only agree with the carno thing

6 inches of keratin ramming into you at high speeds SHOULD do some sort of fracture damage

deino shouldn't have a fracture bite but ig it would be more realistic

don't nerf pachy that thing is already basically dead

and finally cera doesn't need a buff it needs to be heavily nerfed

[steep gazelle]

Unfortunately it's a game, adding things just because they should be in real life will completely break the balance and the fun for the players.