balance-feedback-discussion

[mossy tinsel]

I would like to gauge the general opinion on this balance philosophy:

1. Carnivores should deal more damage than herbivores of their same tier with rare exceptions (eg a stego’s thagomizer).

2. Herbivores in general should have worse night vision (though not necessarily as bad as maia’s)

3. Herbivores should receive penalties for body bullying so carnivores can get their meals without having to kill an entire herd of herbis.

4. Similarly, dead herbivores should provide more food for carnivores and carnivores should have much slower stomach drain.

[leaden remnant]

herbis should be about 1.25 stronger than carnis imo

[tribal idol]

even so, its very easy to dodge maia with how not agile it is, especially if you go into woods and circle around trees

[leaden remnant]

yup thats correct

[mossy tinsel]

Why do you think so? Carnivores are supposed to be the predators and as much as I love being a teno main, it seems like currently carnivores have an easier time hunting each other than herbis.

[leaden remnant]

i believe that playing a herbi should be easier than playing carni and that, since they're the ones hunted with, typically speaking, no chance of choosing the fight, they should be a tiny bit stronger

[tribal idol]

its also possible the maia's you run into are running all the "meta" mutations, speed mut and tactile or whatever, I've been using survival mutations not combat ones. which in that case it becomes a problems of those op mutations

[leaden remnant]

currently, carnis suck or are forced to hunt just one damn thing while herbis are just destroying everything being 3 times stronger than carnis

[leaden remnant]

excluding cera

[leaden remnant]

all are running speed mutation but not all are running tactile

[leaden remnant]

so, naturally, it's easier to just kill carnivores and ignore herbivores

[mossy tinsel]

Ah I understand now. I don’t entirely disagree. I think they should be tougher than carnis and might be open to them having reduced growth times, but they shouldn’t necessarily deal more damage is my opinion.

[tribal idol]

idk tho, I remember testing it when I first got to adult, and maia stam while running, without spamming body check which uses stam, I got about a min and a half of running, maybe less

cera and carno I know have better stam then that

maybe teno doesnt, but idk

[leaden remnant]

yeah tougher, stronger, etcetera

[leaden remnant]

only 1 and a half? damn

seen a dude run another maia down for 3 mins straight

[tribal idol]

yea its stam isnt that great, and the body check uses 3% stam. so if you see maia's running people down while using that, then im lost

[leaden remnant]

and ive been ran down by maias for so damn long after having a 3 minutes fight

[tribal idol]

maybe it wasnt an adult, because at like 70-80% grown, maia weights around 3-3.4 tons, and its stam is sub adult stam

in thats case, its a growth issue

[spring willow]

most carnivores dont have knockdown, which is op

[leaden remnant]

we were in vc, he had been fg for a damn long time

[tribal idol]

idk then, im lost

[leaden remnant]

yea

all herbis stun you and knock your ass down, meanwhile the only resemblance to that in carnis is the 5-6 second windup carno ram and pounce to pin for raptors which, if the target has a friend, is not usable

[tribal idol]

there also havnt been any bigger carnivores which would really have a knockdown, such as rex and allo both getting a sort of pin, and rex is supposed to get a headbutt which would do knockdown I would think

[leaden remnant]

rex is gonna go around obliterating everything that moves

im terrified of the future balance

[hasty coyote]

1: why? thats how you end up with carnivores just being better than herbivores since thy are both faster and have more damage while having roughly the same hp. Especially since carnivores and herbivores have unique niches and playstyles that require more/less damage. Like should pachy's ram deal less than omnis bite? should teno's combo deal less than a carno charge? should stego's swings deal less than a deino bite?
2 why? again, that kinda just harms herbie qol, and they need good qol because carnis are just more popular anyway, we need more reasons to play herbies not less.
3: i guess, but anything that prevents body camping can either be negated, abused by trolls, and/or has false positives like nesting or defending a good spot.
4: I think food values are overall fine atm. Though I can get behind making carnis give less food and diets to other carnis once we actually have a more filled out roster.

[tribal idol]

im just saying, look at the current carnivore roster, none of them other than carno really make sense to have a stun. so im sure future bigger carni's would have stun attacks

[slim dragon]

sniff sniff

[tribal idol]

im loading into queue for one of my adult maia's, ill time the stam real quick

13 queue

[spring willow]

That's true, just wish it had a cooldown/chance of activating knockdown instead of every single hit taken, doesn't feel fun at all on the receiving end sometimes being killed in one combo, and feels unstoppable as the herbi

[golden coral]

What if, herbis had higher damage over all, but also higher multipliers, so more at risk if the carni plays well?

[tribal idol]

yea thats fair ig, it does fell oppressive at times, but im gonna wait until larger carni's are added to see how it goes

[leaden remnant]

i don't mind herbis doing more damage, just not infinitely more

but yeah maybe that's a good idea

[hasty coyote]

I can see that working for certain stuff. Give carnivores like cera who want to face tank/bite a lot a lower headshot multiplier because well, they are constantly putting their head at their enemy. Maybe make some herbies who have a more defensive playstyle where they can shield their vulnerable parts easier, like teno, have a higher headshot multiplier

[mossy tinsel]

1. Carnivores are built to kill things, herbivores generally are not. I think herbivores should favor defensive playstyles while carnivores would need to have offensive playstyles to live. I do think that herbivores should have more hp/armor in general though. Carnivores dealing more damage would also encourage herd behavior in herbis. I just don’t think herbis should be rewarded for being aggressive as a general game philosophy. Pachy ram is meant to cripple carnivores. Stego is meant to make carnivores think twice before hitting from behind. Teno is probably the most in line with the game philosophy I’m suggesting since its play style is already largely defensive.

2. I’m not suggesting herbis have 0 night vision, just way worse than carnivores who typically use the night time to coordinate their attacks. Like I said I don’t want them to have NV as bad as maia’s just not as good as something like a ceratos. And nothing close to a dilo’s NV

3. It could just be a penalty for being near a dead body with the size of the body determining the severity of the penalty.

I do think herbis should have faster growth times. Or maybe put a server limit for carnivores and herbivores while expanding server size

[golden coral]

From what I understood of the idea, it was to reward carnis ambushing or otherwise being smart and skilled, with them being beaten in sheer damage and tankiness by the herbis if they just try to fight normally, rather than going for the killing strike.

[tribal idol]

@leaden remnant just tested it, so its around 2 mins 20 seconds of running, but each body check uses 3% stam, so pretty solid running stam, but with that attack its stam will drop quickly

if you dodge even just 5-6 of those body checks, then you should be able ot out stam it as cera, carno, or teno

[hasty coyote]

eh, my issue there is that it not all carnis are good at ambushes, and it can make most herbies unkillable if they just have eyes. I like how it is currently where abushes are useful, but they are not the only strategy and dont just insta win the fight, but they do give a heavy advantage.

[leaden remnant]

i see

[mossy tinsel]

Rapdex has been typing for like 15 minutes. He’s about to eviscerate someone lol. (It’s probably me)

[leaden remnant]

LMAO

[hasty coyote]

1: So my issue here is you arent taking different design philosophies into account for different playables, not all of herbies need to be defensive, not all carnis need to be aggressive. If they were, then this game would be a lot more boring tbh. Pachy is genuinely designed to have an aggressive playstyle. It only has alts as defensive attacks, has very little hp, and is still pretty slow for its size. The way pachy defends itself is by the motto "the best defense is a good offense" and just beating other smalls to death, or breaking and running from things like carno. Similarly, diablo is a mix between defensive and aggressive. while it does have good defensive options, it lacks the agility to cover all angles at once. As such, its given aggressive abilities to put pressure on the attacker so that they can't get behind it. Hence why one of diablo's best attacks and drift are only available while sprinting. On the other side we have cera, who gets a massive resistance buff while around bodies. While its playstyle is still similar to that of pachy, where it relies on overwhelming offense to defend itself, it still has a lot of abilities tied to defense. Also, hp=weight and giving herbies more armor while giving carnis more damage would just make carnis able to kill each other faster and herbies take longer to kill each other.

[hasty coyote]

2:again, why? yeah carnis can use it to ambush, but why not just give the targets that need more vulnerability more vulnerability rather than blanketing it on all herbies and all carnis? Stuff like stego, diablo, and gali hainvg bad nv? sure, those dinos are hard to fight/catch at all so its fine to give them more vulnerability. But stuff like dryo (who has been given really good nv to make it more unique) and pachy dont really need the extended vulnerability because their hp is low enough to be highly vulnerable to any ambush. Meanwhile cera and carno dont need good nv, carno because its so oppressive in the plains during the day, and cera because it doesnt need to hunt.

3: that just proves my point, it would be abuseable, negateable, and have false positives. Maia killing a dilo that attacked their nest? debuffed because they sat next to a body. Stego body camping? it can just run off for a min then come back and attack while the carnis are eating. Teno killed an omni but is still pinned in a defensive postion by the rest of the pack? debuffed.

[hasty coyote]

also having limits on carnis and herbies just leads to people afking in the spawn screen til they get to play what they want or just changing servers. Plus its honestly really annoying, imagine waiting an hour in queue to join some friends as omnis, but then being unable to play with them because theres too many other omnis. Sadly expanding server size aint really an option either atm because then server performance starts to decline and no one has fun.

[mossy tinsel]

You’ve made a lot of really good points and honestly I agree with almost everything you said. I do think that it is essential to keep the uniqueness of each dino, however, I do think there needs to be a solution for body bullying and mixpacking and unfortunately I think penalties are one of the only ways to do that. On the topic of server limits, I wouldn’t mind them too much if they:

1. were only implemented once servers were greatly expanded (think like 200+ people per server)
2. If you could clearly see them before joining a server.

[hasty coyote]

I agree there needs to be something done to curb mixpacking and body camping if possible, but I simply don't think theres a way to do it without causing other issues. best solution I could come up with is this, and it still won't entirely prevent it: #general-feedback message
I'm also mainly against server limits due to them being a bandaid fix for underlying issues, and that they prevent people from playing what they want to play.

[crimson crater]

imo it should varie from specie to specie

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message
For real? Any creature that accelerates that slow should not be forced to do immobile attacks

You can't even peck while running, just walking

[crimson crater]

@tight cove maia ain’t balanced cuh https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1156104879945818152/1315107120487862272/maiavcera.mp4?ex=67563473&is=6754e2f3&hm=75ed2221234e01ee8c23e49e821c6fe30c88a33f60896f7c99f344ddc853e592&

47kmh speed, decent damadge and 3 minutes run time. i hate how it’s being used as an endurance hunter

[tight cove]

My friend legit made that clip and showed it to me a little while ago lmao, but besides that that’s not busted

[tribal idol]

2 min 20 second run time, tested it earlier, and the main stun attack uses 3% stam. its stam aint that good. its also very easy to dodge, the ceras in that clip just kept running in straight lines

[tight cove]

Ding ding ding!

[crimson crater]

but besides that? bro

[crimson crater]

it has more than 2 mins and 20 seconds lmao

[tight cove]

Those ceras ran in a straight line and kept hitting each other 💀

[tribal idol]

I tested it, it does not, at full grown its 2 mins 20 seconds

[crimson crater]

nah they tried to dodge but they couldn’t, anyways maia can drift to keep up so it don’t really matter

[crimson crater]

it can’t be

[tribal idol]

the ceras legit ran in straight lines, thats some dodging, not to mention each time you dodge a body check it uses 3% of the maia's stam, you can out stam them pretty easy

ive been playing cera for most of today, and its not hard to dodge and get away

[crimson crater]

not really, if the maia knows what it’s doing it won’t be spamming its attack like that. look at carno for example it has ass agility but it’s decent at small game hunting

[tight cove]

Some of them ran in a straight line while others just turned one way predictably and just got hit, and yes Maia can keep up with its drift but it’s knock down ability takes 3% stam so it won’t take long to out stam a Maia if you keep making it miss

[tight cove]

Carno isn’t even good at small game hunting rn bro

A good solo Omni can give a carno a problem

[crimson crater]

“if you keep making it miss” that’s just a skill issue on the maia’s part, ain’t nobody who knows what they’re doing gonna miss around 10 times

[tight cove]

2 Omnis or 2 dilos straight up kill a carno

[tribal idol]

yea because carno can still somewhat turn, and its attack auto hits, all you have to do is hold a button. maia is less agile then carno and you actually have to time the attack. and yes a skill maia can be hard to get away from, but ive had some pretty competent maias chase me and I got away

[tight cove]

Fair

[crimson crater]

for sure but just saying that carno can kill them despite its lack of agility

[tribal idol]

not to mention the second you enter a forest it becomes very hard for a maia to even keep track of you, let allow get hits if your dodging

[crimson crater]

forests don’t help that much actually, i’ve been doing just fine chasing stuff down there

avoiding the trees isn’t difficult imo

[tribal idol]

well if the stuff is smart enough to use the trees, ive been dodging plenty, and when I was maia the few people that did use trees made it very hard to hit

[leaden remnant]

that maia wasnt amazing

he literally killed himself

[crimson crater]

dude maia and carno got a very similar turn radius + maia got a better slide which helps it maneuver around better and helps with repositioning. it can absolutely pursuit stuff like carno

[leaden remnant]

maia is a 3.8 ton carno with stuns

[crimson crater]

goes to show how even ass players don’t struggle with it

[leaden remnant]

nah he wasnt ass but wasnt great either

above average and committed some big ass mistakes

as i said he killed himself, he could've won very easily

ceras werent great either but werent stupid

[tribal idol]

maia is much easier to dodge then carno, ive played maia and its not that stong. could is use a little less stam? maybe, but its stam still isnt that good and you can dodge it way easier then carno

[leaden remnant]

just confused

[tight cove]

After killing 3 he easily could have dipped but he wanted to test Maias limit

[leaden remnant]

if he actually targeted the ones he should've targeted, he would've won without issues

he was being deleted by a cera but instead went after someone who he was doing like 5% damage to

[crimson crater]

not really.

• it has a much wider hitbox which makes it easier to land a hit.
• maia dosent need to run for an absurd amount of time before being able to knock something down
• better dps and overall damadge
• quick n effective slide/drift (much better than carnos)
• good amount of stamina

[leaden remnant]

this dude alone did like 30% of the damage and almost all the bleed

[tribal idol]

stam is worst then carnos, sure drift is better thats something that can be nerfed probably, and maia's hitboxes are very hard to hit, they aren't large hitboxes at all. sure it has better damage then carno, but its also a 3.8 ton animal, that's not surprising. and to be fair carno having to run for like 7 seconds to get a stun is super underpowered

I mean sure, maybe a small stam nerf could work, but I dont think its super necessary

[crimson crater]

yea i admit most of its hitboxes are pretty small except for the headswing, it’s wide as you can see in the clip. it being nearly 4T and on par with a dilo in terms speed dosent warrant the damadge it does, quite the opposite

[keen plover]

yeah I could have played better, but I also wanted to commit to the brawl to see what it could do there lol

Either way, maia is fun!

Those Ceratos completely ignored the bodies for some reason. I would have backed off LOL

[crimson crater]

not when your on the receiving end

[tribal idol]

the only thing I would want to see in terms of a nerf is make more of the attacks use stam, the holding left click which is the best attack rn takes no stam. make more attacks take stam, then it would probally be pretty good

[keen plover]

Of course. Still fun though

[crimson crater]

it could also use a slight damadge nerf to its stomp nothing too crazy tho

[tribal idol]

its stomp is only 175 damage, so with all headshots its a 5 shot to cera

[crimson crater]

yea i will admit but it’s used as this endurance hunter rn

with it’s ridiculous stamina

[crimson crater]

both stomps are around 350 and it’s around 525 on headshots

[tribal idol]

ive seen 3 different people sent ss of the code, and the most damage those said was 200 on the alt attack kick

ig they could be wrong, but 3 different people, so idk

[leaden remnant]

oh it was you

you should've targeted the mudded up cera beating you up

you would've won cause the other one would've ran, he was terrified

[keen plover]

Yeah

[crimson crater]

it deals more than that with the alt stomp

[keen plover]

I could have done a few things better but I'm fine with the end result

[leaden remnant]

what's done is done anyways

[tribal idol]

ive talked to so many people they play this game like degens, figured someone would have told me that, but idk, maybe

[crimson crater]

that’s because it deals 175 with each hit but it’s 350 in total

[tribal idol]

that could make sense, then ig that could get slightly nerfed. personally I would want all the attacks to be good, the alt attacks need to be sped up because rn they take 2 seconds to hit and leave you stunned for 2 or 3 seconds.

[crimson crater]

ye

[lean wren]

@mortal raptor i hate to say this but omni's adult stam pool is very much garbage and normally omni's have to pounce cera's twice just to kill them that comes with biting the head and the tail as well high casualities

[mortal raptor]

I do agree that omni vs cera is an iffy matchup, but I dont think damage pouncing should be the main method of killing ceras

Instead, I would support reducing/removing cera bleed resistance trait to make bleed pouncing more effective on them

Omni's main thing is to be a bleeder, after all

[viscid schooner]

Omni is probably the most pathetic excuse of a "bleeder" The Isle has right now. Cera and teno both (probably diablo, too) out-perform it with bleed. It's ridiculous. You take a couple bites from a cera and a claw alt from a teno and suddenly your blood pool has been reduced to atoms

[halcyon skiff]

I can’t get my Maia to stomp at all without holding alt. SpongeBob staring at steaming coffee mug in a cafe gif.

[snow rover]

Herbivores and carnivores are completely unbalanced. Why does Tenontasaurus hit Carnotaurus on the tip of its tail?
The Carnotaurus has no advantages at all, its weight has been removed, it barely kills the Tenonta, let alone the Diablique. The Cerotosaurus has at least charge and turns, while the Carnotaurus has only acceleration and clumsiness. He barely kills the cerotosaurus...

[haughty grotto]

@hasty coyote your post is perfection
havent seen a single quad maia, theres no point in making a stance changing dinosaur when one stance is superior to the other 100% of the time

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message with that stam cost and that running stam, maia is going to be asking to be ran down by the local trashcan scavenger goblins and vomited to death lol the current stam cost is already enough for it to be ran down easily

it’s going to be cera vs carno in spiro again

[hasty coyote]

quad is literally just bad, like theres not a single benefit to using it other than better stam regen (and i dont know if stam regen is even a thing)

[hasty coyote]

dude, maia shreds ceras with its current attacks, 1v1 ceras just kinda die, even 1v2 or 1v3 can be rough depending on skill. Hence why I suggested making its stun attack while running cost more stam so that it can't just spam it and run down a cera. With the quad buffs I suggested, ceras aint gonna fight it. Unless theres like 4 ceras and one maia, in which case it would just need to run anyway

[haughty grotto]

strongly disagree
its stam costs are way lower than the vast majority of the roster despite being the heaviest (minus stego)
makes absolutely no logical sense

it can chase something smaller/slower down and still have stamina left when the target runs out
ridiculous

[distant torrent]

4 ceras and it might as well flop over and die on the spot because those ceras will out stam it. lose the maia? easily track it. its a giant chunk of meat that can’t get far by trotting while out of stam. guess it dies faster if it vomits beforehand lol

[cosmic pelican]

Shove only costs 3% stam, unless the maia literally spams it, it barely affects its runtime

[haughty grotto]

how tf will they outstam it?
maia can just run away?

[distant torrent]

look at carno vs cera back on Spiro

and carno was very notably faster than maia

[haughty grotto]

no, why should i look at two different dinosaurs from years ago on a different map?
look at whats in front of you right now: and that is a dino 3x heavier than another one being able to run longer and faster than the smaller one
make it make sense

faster is fine
longer is absolutely not fine

[distant torrent]

because they share the same problems

• less stam, bigger, but faster, yet still getting chased and tracked down by giant packs

[haughty grotto]

dont get me wrong, i absolutely hate ceras and im so happy that their 'easy dominance' is now over and they have to watch out for maias
but this low stam consumption is hurting all species, it can chase anything either with speed or by being able to run longer and depleting the other's stamina before its own

[distant torrent]

make vomit an actual brutal deterrent than a combat mechanic, and you’ll see less maias tempted to go for ceras

[haughty grotto]

the onlyyyyy thing that can somewhat prevent a maia from chasing is an omni pack and thats only because of bleed so that the maia has to stop and heal the bleed
everything else can be destroyed

[distant torrent]

dilo shreds it

dilo’s also a little faster, if it it’s being chased down. I’ve escaped many maias as dilo

[haughty grotto]

it cant shred a good maia
and even then you need at least 3-4
but yeah the vision impairment of venom will allow it to escape you're right about that

[distant torrent]

oh they can shred a good maia lol and needing at least 3 is perfectly fine

[hasty coyote]

Here’s the thing, practically anything at that size range just dies to 4 ceras. Plus, its speed gives it a pretty good ability to escape. Tracking ain’t 100% reliable unless it’s already bleeding, and Maia can easily run before the ceras get close. If it got ambushed by 4 ceras, then I don’t know what else could survive that. Plus I have seen maias 1v4 ceras currently, and the stam nerfs I proposed would not change those fights much, but the quad buffs would help it a good bit.

[distant torrent]

you don’t even need the venom to escape. simply run the other way

[hasty coyote]

Won’t matter, if people can do something, they will do something. Especially if that something includes bullying other players. Like what do diablos get for fighting stegos other than potential death? Nothing, but they do it anyway because it’s fun and they can.

[distant torrent]

if the consequences are bad enough over a long period of time, fighting will be reconsidered. dibble vs steg fights happen often because there’s little to no drawback. just lay down for a little bit and heal or eat and heal.

if it’d feel brutal effects from the fight like being unable to regen stam for 30+ minutes and being unable to gain diet during that timeframe, it’ll be heavily reconsidered (at least by the smarter players that can judge risk-reward)

[leaden remnant]

problem isnt cera problem is maia

[distant torrent]

it is a cera problem. it’s been needing a vomit change for a long hot minute now

it’s not a good deterrent

[leaden remnant]

how is maia shredding everything a cera problem

maia is faster stronger and has more stamina

we got a problem here

[distant torrent]

because maia doesn’t shred everything. cera not having enough of a good deterrent is a cera problem that needs to be changed and fixed

[leaden remnant]

maia shreds everything

[hasty coyote]

The issue is that if your do that, you punish the players who just defended themselves from a cera. Like imagine playing Diablo, being jumped by a cera then being debuffed for 30 minutes because they attacked you first.

[leaden remnant]

catches up to you at mach 1 stunlocks you and deals insane damage

unless the maia gets dodged and wastes all of his stamina, something really difficult, you ded

[distant torrent]

I’ve see a teno solo it, dilos shred it, omnis bully it, and I can’t even imagine they’d be able to hit troodon. the ones struggling right now are dibble and cera. if a carno gets got, then that’s on the carno because it’s faster. it shouldn’t be trying maias anyways

I doubt they’d be able to touch stego with that power swing

[leaden remnant]

a teno soloing a maia is bonkers

[distant torrent]

the stun didn’t work on the teno for some reason

[leaden remnant]

oh then there you go

[distant torrent]

so it got kicked in the face

[leaden remnant]

and dilos are crazy op rn

a 2v1 is easy win for maia but 5v1... not a chance

[distant torrent]

a 3 vs one can kill it. a 2 v 1 can get it on its toes

[leaden remnant]

not to mention that raptors shredding maias simply shows that the maias had no idea about how to play

[distant torrent]

omnis have better agility than dilos. it just makes since they can shred maias

[leaden remnant]

how many raptors were bulling the maias

[distant torrent]

one lmao it couldn’t get hit

[leaden remnant]

bruh

tremendous skill issue

[distant torrent]

it’s small and agile

[leaden remnant]

still a tremendous skill issue

[distant torrent]

if I can dodge maia throws as a dilo, I’m sure an omni would have an absolute blast of a time with dodging lol

[leaden remnant]

still a horrible skill issue

i dont think it's a good idea to put examples of people fumbling fights so hard specially when talking about balance

seen raptors 1v1 stegos and win but that doens't mean stego needs a buff

[distant torrent]

it’s not hard to dodge maia throws with agile critters, idk why that’s considered fumbling a fight

[leaden remnant]

1v1 bites only which is way worse

[leaden remnant]

because if the maia knows what he's doing the raptor lasts 5 seconds

insta knock his ass down stomp his face

[distant torrent]

are you sure that wouldn’t be an omni skill issue? most are a little bad anyways lol… https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/jeY87jcyfuS5A9rma?invite=cr-MSxYQWIsNDMyNTQ2Njcs

that was from last night

[leaden remnant]

BRUHH THE 2 RAPTORS

😭

[distant torrent]

I felt so bad for them but couldn’t stop chuckling lol

[leaden remnant]

considering that the headbutt has a really big knock distance, not really

maia is a 3.8 ton carno that can insta knock you down and stomp your face

it works exactly like a carno it even slides like one

[cosmic pelican]

It literally is😭
Even the drift cancel is there

[leaden remnant]

but some maias (most) don't know how to play it and you can't blame em so a good maia casually 1v5s them and wins on yellow hp

like maia is spiro carno but 3 times better

[cosmic pelican]

Except it has more stam and its more stamina efficient, and the stomp does twice as much as the best possible charge dmg

[distant torrent]

it actually doesn’t have a big knock distance. it’s ping. I’ve played maia and fight against maia. when you fight as one, you only get a knockdown if it connects on your screen. while fighting them, I’ve been knocked down from far away

[leaden remnant]

bit less speed, over twice its hp

[leaden remnant]

the knock distance makes sense to me btw im merely stating that the knock distance is pretty big (and not surprised)

[distant torrent]

its really not at least not from my experiences

[leaden remnant]

check this vid for me real quick

you'll see that the knock distance is pretty big

[distant torrent]

yea this is a little strange. my knockdowns had to connect perfectly or else it wouldn’t knockdown. I’ve had times where a cera would play a hurt noise from what looked like a tail hit but wasn’t knocked down (it hadn’t already been knocked down yet, so there wasn’t a small window of immunity)

might be an overall playable hitbox issue since the hitboxes are a bit messed up anyways right now. I know on the main branch with carno tests, hitboxes can tend to lag backwards during movement and allow for bs hits. I’ve hit someone’s tail tip on my screen and apparently did full body damage despite not even hitting on the other person’s screen lol it was wild

[crimson crater]

i’ve tested it and the hitbox is pretty wide, not exactly as bad as dibbles but yea

[distant torrent]

I’d say all of the hitboxes need some tlc from the devs

but regardless I’d give cera’s vomit an actual reason to be feared rather than nerf maia, and cera hunting will be heavily reconsidered

I feel like what a maia should get from vomit should be a bit different than say a carno should get since it’s possible to overpunish a carnivore because of the diet requirements (carnivores don’t have grazing and can’t eat plants so they have to hunt)

for maia’s vomit punishment:

• make the vomit happen 15-30 minutes later
• have the vomit delete all of the maia’s diet, rather than the current tickle damage done to diets
• have the vomit prevent stamina regen for 20-30 minutes
• have the vomit sickness last for 30ish minutes (salt not allowed to cure), so eating in an attempt to heal with gastro will cause more vomitting
• lock health regen and (optional) bleed regen completely until the vomit sickness is healed

that way the maia will be severely suffering after a fight. sure the maia can kill the cera, but it’s going to be feeling the side effects and be vulnerable for it for a long while afterwards

I’d also let the bile stack. get your stomach filled with bile a second time? now you get to feel the effects for twice as long. that’s an hour of suffering

[leaden remnant]

the problem isnt cera it's maia

making cera brutal isnt the solution to maia's problems

[cosmic pelican]

Rip to anything thats slower than cera
No stamina or health regen for 30 minutes is insanity

[leaden remnant]

also makes cera teh best hunter ever which is something that you dont like

[distant torrent]

this would only be for maia because it’s faster and beefier. everything else can have different effects

it’d be a good deterrent

[crimson crater]

i really like this suggestion

[cosmic pelican]

30 minutes of not being able to regen any health or stamina is just anti fun though, it esentially forces you to be afk in a corner for 30 minutes

And thats if you only vomit once

[crimson crater]

just don’t fight the cerato then

[distant torrent]

well that’s the point of deterrent. it’s unfun. simply don’t try to fight the angry trash goblin

[crimson crater]

there should be severe repercussions

[crimson crater]

💯

[cosmic pelican]

What if you get ambushed, pretty probable considering maia has extremely bad nv

[distant torrent]

15-20 minutes is plenty time to run away. buffing nv a little would be great though so it’s not completely blind and unaware

[crimson crater]

unless the maia has 1% food an ambush won’t do anything, ceras most bile applying attack can’t even be used in an ambush

[cosmic pelican]

Yes its enough to run away, but youll be sitting for an hour after you do because you dont know when youll vomit, and when you do, youll need 30 minutes to heal it

Might as well jump off a cliff and start growing another maia at that point

[distant torrent]

still about as fun as it’d be to get chased down by a giant cera pack from having inferior stam like carno v cera Spiro lol

I’d take an hour or so of suffering than spending 3-4 hours regrowing

[cosmic pelican]

And you also said it would have different effects for every single playable, thats a nightmare for balancing and would take up a considerable amount of dev time. Meanwhile the whole issue could be solved by nerfing maias ability to run things down.

[cosmic pelican]

Id rather regrow, at least I get to play the game instead of needing to afk

[distant torrent]

a necessary evil. blanket vomit effects are kinda meh

[crimson crater]

instead of nerfing maia’s runtime, it’s attacks should cost significantly more

[leaden remnant]

is this spiro tho

theres infinite bushes trees and forests

takes 20 seconds to get away

not to mention that we got much more runtime

[cosmic pelican]

Thats wouldnt solve the issue sadly, just use punches to deal chip dmg until theyre out of stam, then shove and stomp

[distant torrent]

no but it’s the same song and dance

• bigger thing with inferior stamina gets chased down
• bigger thing with inferior stamina can simply be tracked and not easily lost but this time better because it’s even bigger

[crimson crater]

true

[cosmic pelican]

And if they try to turn back and fight you can shove them

[cosmic pelican]

Tactile endurance exists, it makes the maia impossible to run down

[distant torrent]

that’s why all combat mutations need to be removed

[leaden remnant]

tracking is impossible rn

[cosmic pelican]

Theyre in the game, might as well make use of them

[leaden remnant]

and it's got amazing runtime + stam regen

the issue you present is non existent

[distant torrent]

I’m referring to if it’s stam gets a giant slash. it won’t be able to get too terribly far so tracking will be fine and not impossible

if it happened in Spiro it can still certainly happen now lol

[cosmic pelican]

It can also handle ceras in a 3v1 decently well, if its outnumbered any more it should be at a massive disadvantage, at least thats how it works for every other playable

[crimson crater]

maia goes hard with the hit and run tactic

[crimson crater]

can even fight 5 ceras using that

[distant torrent]

yea but it’d be likely to not mess with them if the vomit changes happen

[leaden remnant]

tracking barely works rn tho

it works like 10% of the time

footprints don't appear, tracking by blood is complicated as hell cause the prey stops bleeding too quick and you're 2 mins away

and if it happened in spiro, seeing how the map is way different and this game is pretty much a whole new one, it doesn't have to happen again

[worthy steeple]

I AGREE

[minor zealot]

definetly. a maia can fight 5 ceratos, stomp a billion times and still chase ceras down after all that. the large attacks should be more heavy on stam costs

[viscid schooner]

Agreed

[tight cove]

@crimson crater you know man maybe your right, maybe Maia needs a slight nerf because right now it can easily maul even Diablo 💀

[crimson crater]

yea😭

it’s insane

[tight cove]

Lmao the devs added a almost 4 ton carno but it’s better 😂

[crimson crater]

atp they got something against carno cuz why is maia doing all this but carno gets nerf after nerf

[dusky surge]

imma be honest, i think the reason maia is mauling diablo has nothing to do with maia itself

and everything to do with the lack of head hitboxes for any animal

[crimson crater]

no

there’s definitely more to it

[tight cove]

For any animal? Please explain because I want to be informed 👀

Because Ik already that Maias hit box is broken rn

I’ve heard you can’t even hit it’s tail

Also keep in mind nothing in the game can even hit a Maias head right now since Maia has the height advantage over everything 😂

[dusky surge]

all animals are lacking vital hitboxes

namely in the head and tail regions

its a pretty big bug, and especially bad for diablo, who relies on a strong head hitbox to protect the rest of it

[tight cove]

True, so I hope the devs actually fix this issue

But I still believe current Maia would still probably maul Diablo even if it had a good head hitbox

[thorn mountain]

@west plank thats a bug head and tail hitbox are not working for all playables

[sonic flame]

tbf if Diablo had its head hitbox working it'd be taking significantly less damage

I'm not sure if blocking works right now when you can hit past the head, but when it is working, Diablo can also avoid taking any CC from a Maia

[crimson crater]

the maia can get behind it

[sonic flame]

Theoretically yes, though Diablo turns faster than Maia can flank it, especially while blocking, which allows you to strafe

[crimson crater]

the dibble has to drift to properly spin around leaving it vulnerable. allows the maia to ride it

but yea let’s see how the matchup is when it gets fixed

[sonic flame]

I think you are overestimating Maia’s turn rate, Diablo turns in place faster than Maia can rotate around it, even more so if it is backing away using the sparring movement.

Tho part of that is down to the Diablo to move efficiently to keep the Maia off its body

[crimson crater]

Maia’s turn radius when stationary feels different compared to when it’s moving i feel like. also it’s drift helps it maneuver around better similar to carno

[cosmic pelican]

Also uh, what if 2 maias want the dibble dead...?

[tight cove]

Alright

[sonic flame]

The you die, same deal as any other “okay what if you’re outnumbered by animals you normally can 1v1?”

What is a Diablo to do vs 2 Alberto, Allo, Plateo, etc

[cosmic pelican]

Fair enough

[sonic flame]

It can fend off same sized and larger threats as long as it can keep its head pointed at them, but it only has one head

[cosmic pelican]

Still dont know how I feel about it though :/

[sonic flame]

The solution there is, unironically, bring your own friends

If numbers tip the scale in your favor, then you’d want the bigger group

I.e two Pachy vs one Omni is easily Pachy favored

Two Omni vs one Pachy is very much Omni favored

[golden coral]

Spar/block + terrain + various "mind games" maybe. Not sure how accel matches up to maias, but if you can knock a stego, or stun, surely you can do to maia too.

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah you can stun a maia, but I feel like after the first knockdown 2 maias would just be able to stomp cycle a dibble while body blocking

[shadow vortex]

I was thinking about Maia lately, and I came to the conclusion that perhaps just a small increase in the stamina cost of bipedal running and a decent decrease in drift speed would help it become balanced (probably along with nerfing the knockdown thresholds, I don't really see the reason for Maia to be able to stunlock a full-grown Diablo lol). This way it still can flee away from something, but won't be far too good at chasing small critters down. Knockdowns still would help it in repelling things such as Omnis if they choose to pursue eventually.

Also quadrupedal stance needs adjustments, it's too uncomfy to use right now, locomotion could use some work too (this "Legacy" thing when you go forward as you just try to turn is filthy).

[crimson crater]

yea you can’t always survive all odds. balancing around that is hell

[tropic horizon]

Honestly you could probably nerf maias speed and give it a compensatory buff somewhere else and it'd be ok. Like in it's damage or something cause I still don't know why it needs to be running at 46kmph.

[analog mirage]

@random stump in that clip while yes the Maia did kill 3 of them, it still lost. It used up its entire bloodpool to do so. It could have ran away at any moment and survived.

[random stump]

yes and i think it shouldnt be able to do that

[analog mirage]

And also most of those ceratos did not try to dodge at all

[random stump]

because he could've killed 2 and hard left and been fine

and thats incredibly screwed up

[tropic horizon]

also am I crazy but does maia seem to have pretty poor bleed resistance? I may be crazy but I've seen quite a few clips of maias bleeding out before their health gets depleted.

[random stump]

might just be a giga healthpool instead of low bleed resistence

[analog mirage]

A Maia fights 5 mediocre ceratos, dies and kills 3 of them

It had every opportunity to not die

And the ceratos had even more to play better

[tropic horizon]

thats true, also unsure how I feel about 3.8 ton maia like huh...

[leaden remnant]

yeah it's horrible

[random stump]

if i have 10 bazillion hp and will die in 2 minutes if i get a paper cut im not going to die to normal damage

[tropic horizon]

so I guess it having that speed helps it against some of our bleed hunters like raptor, neat.

[random stump]

i like the part where it gets surrounded by 5 ceratos and gets away still with high hp

at the very start

[tropic horizon]

honestly still unsure about how I feel on maia balance wise. a big part of me sees it as too strong but also that may just be new animal being a new animal and so the playerbase is adjusting to it and finding counterplay.

[leaden remnant]

he couldve won that btw

if he didnt let a cera take like 30% of his hp

[distant torrent]

@random stump 2 of those 3 died from the maia. the third died from its own buddies friendly firing it so it killed 2 out of 5 of them

[random stump]

is bro talking about the orange face one that got finished off by an accidental single bite after getting beat to near death by the maia

[distant torrent]

yes. just pointing out he could’ve easily backed off if his buddies weren’t a bit goofy lol would’ve came out of that fight with 2/5 dead

[leaden remnant]

maia couldve chased him down

mr maia would've won that if he didn't throw the whole match at the end

[distant torrent]

I’d say a maia fighting 5 mediocre ceras and only killing 2 is a pretty fair trade off and least for that fight. if they were mediocre, image if they were skilled

[random stump]

because the maia faster then him wouldnt have run at him and swung again like it did for the other two

he killed 3 my guy you might be on something if you say thats 2

[leaden remnant]

a mediocre maia fighting 5 mediocre ceras and almost killing all 5

and he threw the fight in the end

[distant torrent]

he could’ve had a chance of slipping off while the others distracted. can’t tell for sure he would’ve died if he didn’t get friendlied

[leaden remnant]

he would've ended up being a mediocre maia fighting 2 bad ceras 1 good cera and 2 mediocre ceras and killing all 5

[random stump]

the others "Distracted" for the 2 other ceratos too and they didnt exactly slip off now did they

[distant torrent]

probably, but in the video 2/5 died truly to the maia. 1 from friendly so I’d still call that a fair trade off

[random stump]

3/5 died to the maia.

[analog mirage]

And the Maia died as well

[distant torrent]

if it killed all 5 then I’d be concerned lol I have yet to see a maia or a video of a maia kill that many

[leaden remnant]

almost all 5 died

[random stump]

yep it only took 5 ceratos (which its faster then)

[leaden remnant]

imagine what a good maia could do

[analog mirage]

I’d argue the Maia was playing well for the most part

[distant torrent]

same. it looked fine to me

[random stump]

maia did p good but he could've (and should've) just left after killing the first 2

[leaden remnant]

he wasnt playing bad

but he threw the last part atrociously

that was a maia win if he didn't throw that part

[distant torrent]

the ceras could’ve followed it and tracked it down. it had half stam left

[leaden remnant]

half stam is more than enough to get away

[analog mirage]

I think that was because they didn’t care and just wanted to fight ceratos

When it ran towards the lake it could easily have just left and lived.

[distant torrent]

nah

[leaden remnant]

tracking doenst even work anyways

[tropic horizon]

maia also has one of the largest stam pools in the game because silly

[distant torrent]

I’ve tracked things down and been tracked down this update

it’s also highlands so even better

[random stump]

maia with more stamina and speed then cerato (the maia and the cerato have been using the same amount of stamina the whole time)

[analog mirage]

I counted at least 5 times the ceratos could have dodged the Maia and just either ran in a straight line or ran right at it

[leaden remnant]

if he targeted the one who took 30% of his hp he would've won instead of targeting one who was running

[leaden remnant]

doesn't change the fact that tracking doens't work tho

[distant torrent]

maia with half stam is less stam than ceras

[random stump]

what

[distant torrent]

maia used more because the shove takes stam

none of the attacks the ceras used costed stam

[random stump]

hey
hey dude
whats a smaller number
half of 10
or half of 20

[analog mirage]

People just don’t know how to fight Maias. They presume they can just facetank it cause it’s low damage

[leaden remnant]

they didn't facetank it tho

[random stump]

half of a bigger number
is more then half of a smaller number

[leaden remnant]

and it does pretty big number

[random stump]

i mean ill be fair that was alot of hits to kill the ceratos

didnt change the fact they were entirely cooked because faster + knockdown

[leaden remnant]

^^

[random stump]

oh and heres a fun one what are cerato and maia group limits

(i dont actually know someone enlighten me)

[analog mirage]

4 and 9

[random stump]

4 for cerato?

[analog mirage]

I do think Maias group should be toned down

[random stump]

yeah uh

so interms of group equality there

if its 5 ceratos thats 25% more ceratos then the group limit
25% of 9...
uhhhh

ok so 11 maias should be about even to 5 ceratos.

(11.25 if you want to be semantic)

[analog mirage]

Cerato isn’t something that should be in large groups. It’s a mostly solitary scavenger

Maia is more of a herd animal

[random stump]

yeah but apparently 5 ceratos lose 3 members to a solo maia which SHOULD, theoretically, be a great target for 5 solo scavengers, an opportunity to punch up

[distant torrent]

yep. it’s a solitary trash goblin that’s supposed to eat the disgusting stuff no one wants and stay away from big angry zebras

[analog mirage]

And while yes 9 is a bit much, I think Maia having like 5-6 seems fine

[random stump]

but hey we'll say fairs fair its only 5 maias vs 4 ceratos (:

[distant torrent]

big angry zebras are also supposed to not want to fight ceras, so that’s a cera vomit issue I’ve touched on a bit a while ago

[random stump]

after i just watched 1 kill 3 out of 5

yeah, but cerato doesnt GET to stay away from maia, as its slower

[analog mirage]

Are we forgetting Maia is still 3X ceratos size

3 ceratos would amount to just over Maias weight. So theoretically here it taking out 3 ceratos was fair

[random stump]

"oh no he might make me puke :("
"I guess ill just stunlock him"

[analog mirage]

Because it died

[random stump]

then maia gets to have uhm...
2 max group limit

since cerato only gets 4

[analog mirage]

That’s not how balancing works

[random stump]

as such a relatively tiny creature

generally id hope that the max group limits for a creature are about even matchups

[analog mirage]

Maybe 4 ceratos shouldn’t be fighting groups of Maias

[random stump]

what is it like 8 omnis? 8 omnis vs 4 ceratos p even tbh

is carno 3 still?

[leaden remnant]

carno still 3

[random stump]

3 carnos vs 4 ceratos is mostly even too

[analog mirage]

Maia for sure needs a few changes here and there, but it’s not bad

[random stump]

maia is NINE

[distant torrent]

yes it was fair. the issue most people have I believe is when it’s solo or in smaller groups and can’t get away. that can be remedied if vomit was actually brutal for side affects and a good deterrent so maias will be less inclined to kill without reason

[random stump]

NINE.

ONE OF THEM KILLED 3 CERATOS in a 5v1.
IF IT WAS 4 IT PROBABLY WOULD'VE LIVED

[distant torrent]

the current vomit is a great hunting tool and not a great deterrent

[leaden remnant]

nah the solution you offered would make cera the best hunter

[random stump]

vomit definitely needs to be a better deterrent ill give you that

and not a hunting tool

[distant torrent]

if the fight lasted 15-20 minutes for the maia and it didn’t run then yes

[random stump]

because its suppossed to be the "Screw off and let me eat my bones and rotten meat"

not the "im going to stunlock you"

[leaden remnant]

nah it would be teh best hunter

[distant torrent]

how so?

[tropic horizon]

nah those carnos get smoked

[random stump]

idk man there just needs to be a change or two with some dynamics

[analog mirage]

The ceratos didn’t play the best and ultimately got punished by a Maia who played fairly well and decided to throw it all at the end

I bet one or two of them could have lived if they played better

[random stump]

cerato needs to have a better deterrent if its gonna remain slower then these giant dinos that facetank it and weigh 3x as much as it does

[analog mirage]

Cerato also just isn’t built to fight large animals

[random stump]

pachy v maia seems fine? i think?
cuz yeah you'll get cooked if you just try to run but you do the pachy thing, break its legs, and then leave

[analog mirage]

Even with 5. You do have an advantage but it’s still a much larger animal

[leaden remnant]

well if you take away stam and health regen...

[tropic horizon]

maia shouldn't be like, capable of chasing down these things and such should get a turn or drift nerf to make this harder I think.

[distant torrent]

15-20 minutes after bile application. the maia can easily get far across the map in that time

[leaden remnant]

how would that not become the best hunter

[random stump]

yeah but cerato needs to have a defensive tool to make maias NOT attack it

cause a mutual respect

(That or let cerato escape maia either through speed or far higher stamina)

maybe something that slows it down to activate idk

[leaden remnant]

you mentioned that tracking is possible, so they'd just track you down, right?

[random stump]

but it cant remain as "Oh sorry, you played cerato on the same server as a maia, back to the dino selection screen!"

[tropic horizon]

you could also just make maia turn so poorly that chasing down cera and teno is not an option.

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback-discussion message

this was my deterrent fix but ONLY for maia. other creatures can have a different affect because maia is bigger and stronger and faster than cera so it gets special affects

[random stump]

thats an option too but i dont think people want another carnotaurus

[analog mirage]

Maia is a near 4 ton animal why does it need to fear a Cerato who is 1/3 of its size?

If Maias swim speed was lowered a bit it would have the option to use water more. Or the Cerato could just dodge a lot easier instead of running in straight lines

[leaden remnant]

also in the meantime the maia is just gonna destroy them

before the effects hpapen

[tropic horizon]

well then the other option is to just, nerf its speed which people also seem not to like.

[distant torrent]

it’s not that good if the maia flees with full stam. that’s a lot of distance to cover by ceras

[tropic horizon]

because cera squaring up to maia just seems wrong in my head. at least solo.

[analog mirage]

If a Maia is chasing a Cerato that cars should just try to juke it

[random stump]

mr cerato you must now swim in deinosuchus water because i am playing maia.

[analog mirage]

Not stand and fight it

[leaden remnant]

is there a choice tho

[analog mirage]

I’m just giving one example

[random stump]

yeah good luck doing that with isle hitboxes and aggressive knockdowns

[random stump]

pretty terrible example

[leaden remnant]

something with more stamina faster can easily knock yo ass down etc

• with carno slide

[random stump]

maia shouldnt FEAR cerato

it should RESPECT cerato

[tropic horizon]

I also just don't see how maia would need to be 46kmph unless theyre also gonna make a bunch of larger creatures similar in speed which at that point is like

[analog mirage]

Yes. You could use the terrain to juke through foliage, swim across somewhere, run into the jungle (though some of the jungle was changed this patch)

[random stump]

it shouldnt see a cerato and poop itself and run for the hills, but it also shouldnt see a cerato go "haha ez kill" and murder it with no counterplay for the cerato

[leaden remnant]

any maia with eyes will just follow you and kill you

[analog mirage]

Hence why I’d like the stamina on bipedal run lowered

[leaden remnant]

p sure it's coming

[random stump]

i mean thats decent i guess but then you have to make it do that for more dinos that end up being bigger and faster then cerato, i find it highly doubtful that maia is gonna be the only one

[tropic horizon]

this would be nice, also gives quad form more purpose.

[analog mirage]

Lower the stam on bipedal, lower swim speed and let quad be the stam heavy run

[tropic horizon]

cause maia doesnt need that high of a speed while also having ridiculous stamina.

[distant torrent]

that’d be fine. the effects can also be for bigger and faster creatures like maia

[tropic horizon]

like it can have its speed but doesnt need to be that well with endurance

[random stump]

as long as in the quad run it doesnt run down cerato with enough time then yeah

bipedal forces the little puker to stay away from you but the higher stam drain also means it has to be the aggressor (it got that close to you) to get mauled

[analog mirage]

I’ve hunted Maias as raptor and dilo packs and they can be killed pretty easily

Cerato is just one thing that isn’t built to really fight them. Hence why it should opt to run away

[random stump]

yes it just needs to be able to do that

[tropic horizon]

maia seems very susceptible to bleed from what i've seen.

[random stump]

and as of right now, it cannot
neither can teno

[tropic horizon]

but also holy moly that healthbar is gargantuan

I was expecting like 2.8 ton maia before it got released lol (not complaining about it btw)

[analog mirage]

I would say it’s possible, it’s just a bit rough atm. A few minor tweaks would fix it

[random stump]

pachy should crack maias shins and flee, cerato should have some way or another to scare maia out of aggressing it but at the same time maia should be strong enough to scare cerato out of doing the same, and teno should honestly just be flat out faster then maia

[analog mirage]

Pachy has no business attacking a Maia. It should straight up juke it

[tropic horizon]

pachy should just be able to actually outrun maia and not have to crack its shins, seems weird how slow pachy is.

43kmph pachy is cool.

[random stump]

no, it doesnt, but maia is faster then pachy!

have you not listened to a word ive said!

"Oh hey the fat one is trying to maul me to death, time to break his legs and run"

[analog mirage]

Maia is faster with a horrible turn radius

Pachy has an good turn radius and I bet one could easily juke it

[tropic horizon]

maia should just be nerfed to where it can't run you down as a pachy, pachy shouldn't really be able to do that.

[analog mirage]

Though pachy itself is a mess too

[tropic horizon]

pachy speed is like the weirdest thing about it to me, like why is it so low..

[random stump]

out of the 3 egregious matchups maia has (pachy cerato teno) where its faster and facetanks those creatures, pachy's is probably the least screwed because theoretically you can say "Just break his legs bro"

[tropic horizon]

also pachy should just be able to like, juke maia.

[random stump]

or his ankles

i can accept maias speed if its stamina or turning gets hit for it

but in the current state adding maia would be removing those three from the game

[tropic horizon]

why not both

[random stump]

you can give a big nerf to its turning, a big nerf to its stamina, or a medium nerf to both

idk why we are even talking about this maias probably gonna get buffed before it gets put into the game knowing these devs

lets be real

"we felt it didnt do enough damage and turned too poorly"

[distant torrent]

honestly a big turning nerf and that alone to its bipedal stance is the best nerf idea I’ve heard. buff the quad agility because it’s slow, and boom. don’t nerf anything else

[random stump]

"dondi, utah runs down dryo and oustams it, and dryos only counter costs stamina!"
hmmm...
i know.
nerf dryosauurs.

"dondi that didnt fix it!"
ok i know then.
"what?"
next update we will...
nerf dryosaurus again.

[distant torrent]

beipi’s swim speed nerf lol

[tropic horizon]

thats honestly ok. its quad form should have better agility since its the once its gonna be beating up smaller things in and you generally need a better turn for that.

[random stump]

i just want all the dinosaurs to be playable man
and i dont mean selectable i mean viable playables

[distant torrent]

my personal list of wants:

• remove Maia’s ability to stun dibble
• bring back the head hitboxes so dibbles can take reduced damage from maias and not the current full damage
• make cera’s vomit a brutal deterrent
• severely nerf Maia’s bipedal turn
• buff maias quad agility and give those quad attacks some tlc

if the bipedal turn is nerfed a lot I feel like teno, pachy, and cera can simply just easily move out of the way

ngl I kinda like the lack of tail hitboxes. probably should bring back the base tail hitbox, but removing the hitbox from half of the tail to the tip would be nice

[polar vine]

Diablo should be stunned by maia's stomp, the pressure it puts into it's frontal part of the body when it does the stomp attack is pretty big i'd say, it shouldn't stunlock it at least

[distant torrent]

I honestly don’t know how that’ll play out for the dibble but we could see. I was thinking the stun wouldn’t be needed at all because the dibble would be donezo regardless if there were more maias purely because of all of the combined health, and the lack of a stun would at least give it a better chance of putting up a fight. but yea we could see and then it can always be tweaked if need be

[worthy steeple]

ahah no.

[viscid mica]

@worthy steeple make pachy great again!

[worthy steeple]

YES YES YES

my beloved pachy deserves some love

[viscid mica]

a solo pachy should be a difficult fight for a solo raptor or dilo if they are skilled

as it stands unless we get a lucky leg break we lose to basically the entire carnivoure roaster

[worthy steeple]

yeah, leg breaks are very inconsistent, sometimes you kill something before breaking it’s leg..

[viscid mica]

i mean noting he fact that you self stun after a failed m2 it makes it super hard to even do

[worthy steeple]

yeah, that sucks

[viscid mica]

imo pachy should be a menace to low and mid teirs as it should A break bones if he gets a solid m2 and B do really solid damage

legacy pachy had better damage sense you could atleast tail ride with ease

[worthy steeple]

pachy should be very defensive, yeah

it’s underperforming right now

[viscid mica]

i mean i have yet to see anyone play it

im playing it rn and i think im probably only person willing to touch it on any Na/ca server

[viscid mica]

it just me or should we be same speed as raptors at least?

[worthy steeple]

that’s how i feel when i play teno ahah, yeah pachy players are super rare nowdays, but there’s still people nesting time to time

[worthy steeple]

43 is good enough for the pachy (imo) making it same speed as omni will ruin the balance

[viscid mica]

fair i mean id prefer to out run ceratos but cant be too fast

[worthy steeple]

ceras are 40km/h

[viscid mica]

maybe its just the start up of the pachy run then? i dunno i feel like its a struggle to outrun and lose a cera

[worthy steeple]

most ceras are using speed buff mutations to outrun tenos and pachys, you’re basically forced to take the speed mutations as well, just so you don’t die to them

cera with the speed mutation easily outruns pachy

hope they’ll remove speed buffs from the game

[viscid mica]

mm ya i guess if we got base speed of 43/44 at full gorwn with speed buffs we'd be fat chillin

[worthy steeple]

yeah

[viscid mica]

i dont mind them in fact as someone who is a cronic map roamer i love them. id prefer stam regen buffs over speed thou

stuff that makes troting give you same regen at sitting or something for herb's(be way too op for carnis to be allowed to have)

[worthy steeple]

fair enough, tho they ruin the balance sadly

yeah fair point

[viscid mica]

the idea is to diversify play styles further

[worthy steeple]

ah idk about that

[viscid mica]

passive stam regen buffs could be good for herbs to allow for easier migration and make hunting them a bit harder encourging pack tactics and different play styles

they'd have to be minimal

[worthy steeple]

yeah but it’s gonna be hella op in pvp

[viscid mica]

tis the reason ill never suggest it for actual game play

just a wishful thinking as a pachy main in current meta

[hasty coyote]

You can’t fracture a Maia. Because of its size, it takes like 5 hits in a single spot to fracture. Pachy ain’t living more than 2 hits. A pachy is cooked if a Maia decides that it needs to die.

[random stump]

ah nvm then

give maia fragile bones gg ez

[hasty coyote]

My dude, even cera takes 2 hits. Maia would require glass bones as weak as a Dino 1/3rd of its size. This ain’t a pachy issue, it’s a Maia issue.

[random stump]

ah

[hasty coyote]

If we are gonna balance it like old carno, it’s gonna need bones as strong as a Dino 1/5th of it’s size

Maia is literally running into the same issue as old carno, where it is both faster and larger than most the roster. They need to either nerf its strength, speed, or endurance while in biped.

[dusky surge]

it has absolutely no bleed res, so yea

[dusky surge]

dont do this. this kind of stuff is the death of good balance when we create arbitrary rule exemptions to compensate for a single poor matchup, and adds needless confusion and obfuscation to understanding how certain mechanics work when they can change on a per-dino basis

[hasty coyote]

which is why I liked the carno weight drop, it accomplished the same goal as its very specific weaknesses to bleed and fractures and made it weaker for other combat smalls like dilo, but idk why they still keep those weaknesses.

[dusky surge]

the bleed weakness is also bad yea

[crimson crater]

the maia can pretty easily keep up thanks to the slide

[viscid mica]

@native canyon im interested in your reasoning on why you don’t like my recommendation for bringing pachy into playable category?

[dusky surge]

I’ve seen him downvote basically any suggestion that involves herbivore buffs, even if said herbivore is utter ass

[viscid mica]

ah i see a carni 1 trick who probably dies to anything

[sage marsh]

Specifically a Carno one trick. He begs for a full Carno revert and thinks it still isn't enough.

[viscid mica]

carnos are meant to be weak XD

[dusky surge]

I don’t think that’s true lol

[viscid mica]

once the bigger stuff roles out atleast

[versed rune]

This game has been disastrous for the reputation of everyone’s favorite abelisaur

[dusky surge]

Is that perfect cell sparking zero

[versed rune]

Check out my perfect form! It’s perfect!

[sage marsh]

Um no. It should at the least be stronger then Cerato when it isn't a near a corpse.

[viscid mica]

So your telling me a high end low tier should be as strong as a mid tier?

[sage marsh]

High end low tier? Where did you get the impression that's what Carno is?

[viscid mica]

That’s what it was in legacy and that’s how it feels against actual mid tiers like the cera, tenato, dibble and dino

[sage marsh]

Thats a problem. If you consider Cera, Dilo and Teno mid tiers but not Carno that simply proves my point.

[viscid mica]

Where did I say dilo

Dilo is low tier like raptors

[sage marsh]

You said "dino" i assumed autocorrect

What did you mean to say?

[viscid mica]

The fat croc

[sage marsh]

Deino. Gotcha. Deino isn't even a mid tier. But my point still stands with Cera and Teno.

[viscid mica]

What is it if not a mid tier

[sage marsh]

Carno is meant to be at the same tier as them. And it should straight up be a better hunter then Cera which is not

[viscid mica]

Really doesn’t

[sage marsh]

Apex. Literally an Apex

[viscid mica]

They are both scavengers what do you mean

[viscid mica]

LMAO

[sage marsh]

Carno is a scavenger? My guy. You've lost the plot.

[viscid mica]

you realize it’s AT BEST a sub apex and even that’s a stretch as it’s super 1 dimensional

Mid tier

If it ain’t dragging a sub-apex like Stego it sure as hell ain’t apex

Maybe when elder system comes out and brother can get bigger but as it stands not a apex in any way

[sage marsh]

You actually don't know what you're talking about.

[viscid mica]

Kinda is but same time gate way ain’t built for carno hunting its a lot of hills and trees them boys would thrive in plains

[viscid mica]

Have you ever played legacy

Figured

[sage marsh]

Hahahahahahahaha. Yes I have and if you are expecting 1 to 1 comparisons to legacy that proves you don't know what you're talking about.

[viscid mica]

I’m not I’m trying to gag your understanding of the rankings and how the compare

[keen plover]

tbf carno in legacy was better than cerato in a 1 v 1

they also were very similar in size.

[viscid mica]

True mainly cuz they had butter turn

Utahs ultimate hunter in legacy fr fr

[keen plover]

Anyways, carno is a big animal irl and was for the majority of evrima. Right now its the same size as cerato, however it lacks a lot of power.

and good tools to hunt small tiers

[viscid mica]

In what way

[sage marsh]

Precisely. Which is what they want it to do.

[viscid mica]

I get it’s not in best shape rn but only thing I can think of is minor damage buff cross the board other than that it don’t feel all that weak

The only reason cera is really outperforming is the vomiting which gives them free hits

[sage marsh]

Let me put it in perspective. It has the same general stats as Cerato aside from speed and mobility with none of the benefits.

[keen plover]

yea

[viscid mica]

Give carno something to compete is what you’re asking then?

Wait now I need to know saber what class is a Allo in?

[sage marsh]

Cerato as you correctly pointed out earlier is ACTUALLY meant to be a scavenger. It's entire kit is built around it.

Carno is however meant to be a hunter. Right now their roles are flipped

[sage marsh]

Mid tier. How is that relevant?

[viscid mica]

Just cuz allo significantly out preformed both in legacy and if any of the chats I’ve listened from devs it’s supposed to do the same when it drops and sits at the panicle of mid tiers

[thorn mountain]

seems like once allo is added there will be a HUGE gap between carnivores like how there is with herbis

[viscid mica]

I mean it’s cuz the bile gives cera a huge advantage

[thorn mountain]

and allos going to be what 2.5-2.8T thats crazy

[viscid mica]

Might move into sub apex class if I’m being honest

[thorn mountain]

nah its still going to be mid

acro and sucho will be pseudo apex

[sage marsh]

No one is denying that Allo will be strong and good for the ecosystem of the game.

But we are talking about below that.

Carno is in a crap spot after it's nerf.

[viscid mica]

Well see how it proforms if Maia are any reference of how mid tiers are gonna feel I’m hopeful (after some tweaking)

[viscid mica]

What kinda buffs you think it needs

Cuz I’m still seeing tons of carnos

[thorn mountain]

yeah

[sage marsh]

Small weight buff, a bite force revert and/or a change in how charge functions.

[viscid mica]

What was its bite force before

[thorn mountain]

seeing tons is cause its the largest carnivore in game rn does not mean its bad

[thorn mountain]

175'

[viscid mica]

What’s it now I only played it 2 times sense nerf and don’t remember

[sage marsh]

150

[thorn mountain]

150

mb misclicked lol

[sage marsh]

Lol

[viscid mica]

I feel like maybe giving it higher resistance to the bile would solve the problems

[sage marsh]

Same as Cerato. Weight is currently 1300 again same as Cerato.

[thorn mountain]

the weight=resistance to bile

[sage marsh]

No because that won't change where it is in the food chain. Just it's match up against Cerato.

Also what Frolo said

[thorn mountain]

as its now a bile=weight scaling id say make carno 2T or something or 1.75T

[sage marsh]

However a small weight buff to say 1500 and a bite force revert will help what still hurts it is it's agility and reliance on a weak charge.

[viscid mica]

I dunno I’ve just never seen carno as a real mid tier even when envirma first launched it felt more like a high end low tier

[thorn mountain]

as then it would not be a big gap between midtiers

[sage marsh]

Jeez. May as well do a full revert at that point

[viscid mica]

1500 or 1600 sounds fair tbh

[thorn mountain]

some things should change about it but kinda yeah it would also make it better at killing the ''small game'' cause some juvies and things like dibble grow super quick meaning you cannot charge them

even if they are small

[viscid mica]

The bite force I just dunno cuz it ain’t all that but or powerful on that side it was all running down muscle

[sage marsh]

I dont disagree. The main reason I dont suggest that is because I'm worried about it being an over correction.

[viscid mica]

Maybe it just needs some tweaking to its unique mechanic the charge to make it feel more responsive?(on top of a weight up)

I mean it’s not like carno is in the pit rn only two Dino’s go basically in played

Rip dryo and pachy #make pachy great again

[sage marsh]

So this would be good. The idea I've pitched is scaling charge off of weight.

•the lighter something is, the more damage it takes and the less distance for knockdown
•the heavier something is the less damage it takes and the more distance needed for knockdown.
•If it weighs the same or more than Carno there are a couple options such as stunning Carno, stunning both, stunning Carno and knockdown with enough distance or even a combo of all 3 depending on how much more the target weighs than Carno

[thorn mountain]

also as of rn no one plays small game so id say make it be able to take on bigger things as of right now and re adjust later when more playables that are ''small game'' are being implemented and used hell they could just make the smaller dinos AI like hypsi in jungle, dryo in plains and beipi in water areas

[viscid mica]

Similar to what I suggested for pachy

I like it

[viscid mica]

Should

[sage marsh]

Eventually but Carno should still be the baby killing king.

[thorn mountain]

and yet people complain about that

[viscid mica]

IS THE PACHY A JOKE TO YOU!?

How dare you it’s the only thing they can do rn

[sage marsh]

No pachy turns things into jokes

[viscid mica]

I’m of the opinion a pachy head butting head to head should get a massive damage buff

Like you wanna eat a 10inch think skull go ahead

Perfectly alined spine activity

[sage marsh]

I'm thinking that's what happened. Dondi got done in by Carnos 1 time too many when trying to grow something and gave it the nerf hammer

[viscid mica]

I mean carnos pre nerf where kinda op

[sage marsh]

Which is exactly why I don't suggest a full revert. Cause I know people didn't like it

[viscid mica]

Abit less weight than pre nerf a tiny bit less bite force would be nice and put them in a good place

[sage marsh]

Plus cooldown charge was lame

[viscid mica]

Fr

[dusky surge]

the use of "pseudo apex tier" and "high end low tier" in this chat truly has indicated that tiers are the brainrot of isle balance discussion

[sage marsh]

Something worth pointing out is playables like Dilo, Herrera and Omni will likely always have people playing them because of their unique mechanics. Herrera especially, assassin's creed dino is pretty lit

[sage marsh]

Thank you

[viscid mica]

It’s a reference to where they stand within the tiers them selves similar to a tier list for characters of other games

[thorn mountain]

what is highend low tier? dilo?

[dusky surge]

good question

[viscid mica]

Low tier
Mid tier
Sub/pseudo-apex
Apex

It’s pretty simple but the high/low is mostly personal opinion on your own play style

[thorn mountain]

pseudo apex I understand I Would assume its acro

[dusky surge]

Sub apex makes things even more confusing

[dusky surge]

I can't understand why people use pseudo apex. Just call 'em large. You already have small and mid, why is large just a word we all universally forgot about

[sage marsh]

Yeah I've never understood why we called them psuedo/sub apex instead of high tier or large tier

[viscid mica]

Pseudo sub same difference

[dusky surge]

I classify things as

Tiny
Small
Bastard (everything that's between small and mid tier but isn't really either)
Mid
Large
Apex

[viscid mica]

Cuz they are almost apex XD

[thorn mountain]

blocked :)..................... jk

[viscid mica]

Is pachy bastard tier

[sage marsh]

I get the concept 😑

[dusky surge]

No it's small because it's 500kg

[thorn mountain]

bonk tier

[viscid mica]

[thorn mountain]

fracture tier

[viscid mica]

How dare you judge its weight

[sage marsh]

I nominate pachy as the only resident of bonk tier

[viscid mica]

#buff pachy weight

[dusky surge]

I put cerato, teno, magy, kentro, etc in the bastard tier, because they're obviously bigger than stuff like raptors and dilos, but evidently smaller than clear cut mid-tiers like allosaurus or maia

[viscid mica]

Aight now I need to know throw the current roaster in your tiers

[dusky surge]

That's 50 animals

Oh wait not the finished roster okay

[viscid mica]

Mmmm

[viscid mica]

Ya just current in game

[thorn mountain]

where carno

[viscid mica]

Bastard

[thorn mountain]

ah etc

[viscid mica]

If I understand correctly

[dusky surge]

Tiny (Troodon, Hypsi, Ptera, Beipi, Dryo)
Small (Herrera, Omni, Pachy, Dilo, Galli)
Bastard (Carno, Cera, Teno)
Mid (Dibble, Maia)
Large (Stego, Deino)
Apex (Rex whenever that happens)

I think that's everyone

Herrera's a bit more difficult, but its self-sufficiency and ability to obliterate most of the small-tier in a single blast makes me think it's fine in their range

[thorn mountain]

I agree dibble is a mid playable

[dusky surge]

Dibble is cool

[viscid mica]

I like that

[sage marsh]

Don't really think that's debatable

[thorn mountain]

3T aint cool

[viscid mica]

Herrera is a Vietnam special small

[sage marsh]

God the more i talk to people about it the more convinced I am that a full 1.8kg Carno revert is in order. Just gotta rework charge

[viscid mica]

CHILL

[sage marsh]

Cause old charge was either useless or toxic no in between

[viscid mica]

1.65 let’s shake on it

[dusky surge]

It remains extremely funny to me that carno has been outclassed in its niche by two non-carnivores, galli and maia

[viscid mica]

lol

[sage marsh]

It is hilarious and tragic. Maia especially. People are seeing how chill 1800 Carno is in comparison lol

[viscid mica]

I hope when pachy gets a buff it gets a bit fatter

[sage marsh]

Bruh, why you do dis?

[dusky surge]

i dont like your proposal for a carno rework, reverting it won't make it better, it'll bring back the very problem they tried to remove

[sage marsh]

Then what would you propose to fix it?

Cause Carno shouldn't stay how it is. We both agree on that. At least i think.

[dusky surge]

i feel like making knockdown more achievable would go a long way

[sage marsh]

Thats what my rework does though? More damage too sure. So would you rather we had it back on set uses or a cooldown and buff it so it is a guarenteed knockdown?

[dusky surge]

it doesn't, besides making it easier to stunlock cera and teno, the exact reason the size nerfed even happened

[sage marsh]

how so? Cera would weigh over 50% of a 1800kg Carno's weight which means it would have to come from a solid distance to achieve knockdown. a fullgrown Teno would require max distance to knockdown if its even possible because if i remember Tenno also weighs around 1800kg correct if im wrong.

[dusky surge]

the distance thing doesnt matter, because it was melting ceratos even before the weight nerf

the fact that you COULD knock down ceratos was the issue, not the distance

[sage marsh]

whats the problem with it knocking down Ceratos? The distance prevents it from being super spammable, Cerato is also far more manuverable then Carno, especially when charging. Im not really seeing the issue. The distance thing i would argue is fairly important because Carno has a hard time landing knockdowns right now outside of the start of fights or in groups.

[sage marsh]

And you said that making knockdown easier would be a good way to fix Carno's problem. It can knockdown Cera right now given the distance to do so. So i dont understand

[dusky surge]

you say that, but in the update before the weight nerf, carno had

• a required runup
• a cooldown
• insane stam cost

and it STILL demolished ceratos with ease. In fact, cerato was by far its best matchup out of the entire roster. It just got way too much value off of it

[sage marsh]

it was also 6km faster with the charge speed boost on top of that.

So gaining that distance to run in and out was easier

[dusky surge]

it didn't have the charge speed boost back then. that was only readded as of late

in fact, charging new carno is faster than charging old carno

[sage marsh]

was it? my mistake

but back to the debate, you said that making knockdown easier should be done. that would include knocking down Cera. That sounds counter intuative to what you are saying is a problem

[dusky surge]

it can't knock down cerato if it isn't heavy enough to do so

[sage marsh]

Why should it not knockdown Cerato? Cerato can cause Carno to vomit and fight it with damage mitigation. which is where Cerato should do most of its fighting and have the advantage in that scenario. Out in an open field Carno should be oppressive to anything on its diet. Cera included.

and again, Carno can knockdown Cerato currently

[dusky surge]

it cannot

[sage marsh]

im fairly cetain it can

[dusky surge]

at least, last i checked, if both are 100% adults, they cannot knock it down

[sage marsh]

then i have not found a 100% adult as a carno in a while and vis versa

I will keep an eye out if it can or cant, but as of right now im pretty sure it can.

[sage marsh]

but anyway, why do you think Carno should not be able to?

[dusky surge]

because every single time carno has been able to, its charge has been hit with a sledgehammer, alongside the rest of the kit, till we get what we have now, an animal with the remnants of past nerfs just to balance out how hard it demolishes that size-tier of animals

[sage marsh]

i agree that Carno has been overnerfed. My idea for a rework was simply to try and get it back in line. What do you think would be better then? Maia is able to do it right now and has stronger follow up after. knockdown being an actual feature of the charge is relativley new. Should we get rid of the knockdown? Should we nerf the damage? Maybe make it do bleed instead with the idea that the Carno is goring you? Should we replace the charge with something else? If so what should it be replaced with (i have no clue) Should we simply make it a knockback? (path of titans has taught me that this is a bad idea with Pycno)

[versed rune]

perhaps if it was balanced off of what a real life carno would do instead of forcing the small game hunter meme, it would be balanced 🤯

[dusky surge]

doubt it, honestly. real life carno seems like a complete menace to balance, especially in a game like this, and the call to realism is only so applicable when basically every animal in this game is fictionalised

[versed rune]

i mean honestly, back in update 4 and 5 it was fine

but again, it had literally zero carnivorous opponents

it had utah

thats it

like, with current carno, tenonto is like joker without batman

[dusky surge]

the issue is cerato exposed very much what happens if you have that carno vs like... a creature without stuns, that's still in knockdown range

teno had a parry option, a way to go "no thank you" to carno, cera didn't, which is what caused this whole debacle

[versed rune]

i mean, tbh cerato was never as bad as people made it seem

if you put pressure on the carno and played hyper defensive, it quite literally couldnt get the distance to line up a charge

although i do think a 1400 or even 1500 cerato would have been valid

[dusky surge]

i still think the worst part about old carno was its nuke charge. instawin a fight the moment you even graze the opponent with that chage because it outright chunked cera's health and now its facetank time

[versed rune]

full disclosure, i have not played rat carno at all and nor do i want to, but ive seen enough footage of it

how lame is the charge now would you say?

it looks really annoying and spammy

[dusky surge]

i like new carno, personally, at least much more than whatever the hell predated it

charge is now like, a tool that has more than one use, and doesn't have 500 drawbacks

[versed rune]

i mean, charge should have drawbacks

[sage marsh]

It feels good to run away and when you get a knockdown. Problem is Carno is so squishy now and it's bite got nerfed so it feels super risky to brawl. So Carno's just spam charge.

[dusky surge]

yes. but the way old charge was balanced is giving it EVERY drawback

[versed rune]

i dont think so, it was a gamble move that was good for ambushing or catching a bad juke

great sniping move

but the problem came in when they changed charge stam drain to be free

in like, u6 i think it was

[dusky surge]

huge stamina drain? yup. cooldown? why the hell not. need to be in it for several seconds for a knockdown? for sure. can't use it from standstill? gotta have it. instantly cancels the moment you even let go of shift/w or touch an obstacle? absolutely

like it was inexcusable the amount of bull piled onto one attack to make it balanced lmao

[versed rune]

well the cooldown didnt exist for a while

[dusky surge]

some of these drawbacks make sense, but ALL of them? god DAMN

[sage marsh]

Knockdown I'm pretty sure was a glitch at that time and not a feature.

Super inconsistent

[versed rune]

the best iteration of charge was the assassin bullet train of

• insane speed
• high stam drain
• reduced turn
• knockdown

[sage marsh]

Knockdown is super inconsistent now.

[dusky surge]

new charge, imho, is a better designed move. it's a speed boost that enables escape, chase, catchup, as well as having that knockdown and damage, with the drawback of enhanced stam drain, vastly reduced agility and pretty poor damage, alongside the run up required.

the worst part about it is how inconsistent that knockdown is. it should be the opening, but it isn't.

[versed rune]

like

[dusky surge]

nope. feature

[versed rune]

carno felt like a hunter with this version

[sage marsh]

When did they add it as feature? Cause I know it was a glitch at one point.

[dusky surge]

the only glitch about it was the fact you could get around it with tapram

everything else about it has always been intentional

[sage marsh]

Aaah that's what it was. I knew there was something funky going on with it

[versed rune]

also carno can be partly fixed by leaning into the sprinter thing, depletes stam quick, regens it quick

[dusky surge]

never have, never will like assassin ambush carno. the new charge takes several of these elements but repurposes them for a plains based pursuit focus, which i find really cool. charge is a tool you can use to outspeed even galli now, with enough stam to keep that hunt going. The lower damage is also nice to not make it feel so bull to be hit by as a larger creature. Genuinely, the only thing it needs is consistent knockdowns

[versed rune]

i mean

if not an assassin, what is it now

[sage marsh]

Garbage

[versed rune]

true......

[dusky surge]

pursuit, mainly, given it needs to act more as a multi-hit, thousand cuts animal

i love current carno's design, some of the most fun i've had with the animal, genuinely if it were slightly stronger, i'd have no qualms with it

[sage marsh]

New Carno forces you into a "death by 1000 cuts" playstyle. Except the cuts are the rams.

[versed rune]

yeahhh it feels like what rugops should be

carno is kinda meant to hit like a bull yknow

namesake and all, plus its build

*its realistic build, mind you, not the fake current build isle gave it

[sage marsh]

If it were any stronger, it would most definitely knockdown Cerato, which you claim is why it got nerfed. So we are between a rock and hard place. Either it's strong enough to do what it is supposed to do in the place it's is supposed to do it. Or it is what it is now

[versed rune]

like what happened to the whole tenonto/carno synergy matchup thing where they counter each other?

[dusky surge]

no?

[versed rune]

rat carno just kinda removed that entire teno v carno layer from the game

[dusky surge]

why would it knock down cerato? im failing to understand how it always comes back to this

[dusky surge]

honestly, teno v carno is probably not something that ever should've happened beyond a limited roster

they have almost nothing in common besides concept art

[versed rune]

?? why not

tenonto is the perfect size of prey for carno

and tenonto is still large enough to fight it capably

[dusky surge]

we have a hydrophobic plains hunter that lacks agility and was always meant to be specialised in hunting things below its size grade vs a creature that has traditionally always been around water, forests and such, rivalling it in size

[sage marsh]

How would you buff Carno? More speed? No. More bite damage? Probably not gonna help. More weight to give it more HP? Ya that would definitely help. And oh snap. Welp now it's big enough to knockdown full grown Ceratos.

Or if we just make knockdown more consistent than anything that gets hit by the charging Carno that you can't outrun will just be insta dead.

[versed rune]

tenonto is below carnotaurus' size

but like

this is also how we ended up with the carno mess

[dusky surge]

"Carno abhors basically anywhere with water due to its awful swim stats, Teno wants to be near water to take advantage of its really good swimming, Carno wants open areas, Teno prefers more closed areas that limit movement to make its rear attacks easier to land, etc"

took this from someone else but you get the point

[versed rune]

this idea that carno needs to die to everything bigger than it instantly, but also crush everything smaller than it instantly

like thats how we got here

[versed rune]

crafting the ideal carno would also mean rebalancing most other dinosaurs

ie taking notes from update 3

also giving carno more health and damage wouldnt be nearly as problematic if you also gave every other carnivore more damage

like, carnoviores are universally underpowered as far as bite strength goes

not ONE of them except the crocodile breaks 200

[sage marsh]

I do think that once Allo gets added they should do a full rebalance of the roster. Just make sure everything is tuned to where it needs to be. I believe they are doing that. But I also believe that them doing that Started with this Carno change.

[versed rune]

with primary bite that is

[versed rune]

carno and allo should be the centerpiece dinosaurs to balance every other matchup around because they are smack in the middle of the size roster

it is the objectively correct decison

[dusky surge]

• remove the bleed modifiers that make it weak to bleeding, because most small tiers happen to do a ton of bleed, and lo and behold, that screws over carno. hell, throw ON some bleed res to make it actually able to be a considerable threat to these creatures without fear of instant invalidation
• increase its movespeed slightly, but keep its charge speedboost. Make it so damn fast while charging, even gallimimus herds fear it
• make it have a unique momentum mechanic that empowers its charge. The longer it stays sprinting, the stronger the charge gets (able to knock down more bigger things, but obviously not to the same damage/extent as old charge). Loses momentum when it stops sprinting, but can retain it by drifting, allowing it to do cool drift things.

that's some of the things i'd do

[sage marsh]

Allo is big enough to hunt everything that including Apexes when in groups and Carno excels at hunting things smaller than it. So I dont disagree with this. However. I think that with Carno specifically that's a delicate balance as has been proven over the last couple years

[versed rune]

i mean

path managed to balance their big abelisaur

quite well actually, pycno (which is basically carno) hits hard yet is lightweight for its stature

[sage marsh]

I havnt played path in a while but last time I did Pycno was broken the safest dino in the game that could hunt literally anything.

[versed rune]

thats back when u could charge something from 1 inch away and deal full damage lol

its changed a lot since then

[sage marsh]

The damage was high sure. But I'm talking about how safe it was. The knockback made it broken. It caused it to auto win trades

[versed rune]

but like, my point is

carno/pycno/ their relatives are designed in nature to hit hard, and are generally not as tanky as other types of theropods

if you balance with those ideas in mind it shouldnt be difficult to make a fair carno

and if something is still dying too much to carno, maybe carno isnt the problem and maybe everything else is too weak

[sage marsh]

So make it stronger against bleed. Increase its already fast movment speed. And make it capable of fighting things the devs have already said they don't want it to fight.

This Carno would be unstoppable for things smaller and slower than it and would bully things bigger than it because it can just knockdown and run away.

[versed rune]

jee, pachy sure is dying a lot, maybe it should be stronger and less clunky

huh it takes 30+ bites for a utahraptor to kill and 1800 weight carno. maybe utah needs a bite buff instead of nerfing carno

things like that

instead of just nerfing things

cuz buffs make everyone happy, no one likes nerfs

[sage marsh]

Tbf, Omni's main source of damage is pouncing not biting.

[versed rune]

true

[sage marsh]

And Carno is weak to bleed. So a pouncing Omni really sucks.

[versed rune]

but before carno got gutted, it took a utahraptor 32 bites to kill a carno with raw damage

while carno could kill utah in 3

that is INSANE

like, no wonder people thought carno was op, but it was never a carno problem. it was a utah problem, because its bite force became pathetic

[sage marsh]

I mean. Yeah that's kind of absure but now that Omnis have pounce to pin and the option to deal exclusively bleed on their pounce to dela with bigger targets ehh. It might be fine.

What the exact bite force?

[versed rune]

cuz in update 3, it only took around 15 or so hits for a utah to kill a carno with bites, more than enough for a pack to fight one fairly

[dusky surge]

how am i "making it capable of fighting things the devs have already said they don't want it to fight"

[sage marsh]

Giving it the capability to knockdown things bigger than it.

[dusky surge]

i literally never said that

in fact, that's the opposite of what i want

[versed rune]

to be fair

the devs forcing carno to "only fight certain things" is again how it got to this point

[sage marsh]

"The longer it stays sprinting, the stronger the charge gets (able to knock down more bigger thing"

[versed rune]

thats part of why a lot of people just dont care about isle anymore, there are no fun or chancey matchups

like, "X dinosaur will almost always beat Y dinosaur, no questions asked" is no fun for anybody

the unpredicability of every battle is what made early evrima fun

and it felt like skill mattered

[dusky surge]

okay, poorly worded, but no, it should not be punching up. i mean more, the longer you go, the higher the threshhold of weight increases, from 0% to say 75%

[sage marsh]

Okay see now that makes more sense

[sage marsh]

What you suggested here, just btw, is exactly what my charge rework does.

[dusky surge]

i want allo to be the one that jumps out of a bush and jumpscares people, while carno is the terror of seeing an unstoppable bullet train run at you at unmatchable speed basically

[sage marsh]

Which is fair. Still not sure how i feel about the idea of ambush allo. I'll have to wait until we see it before I make a final verdict.

[versed rune]

its speed is matchable by a lot of different animals atm thats the problem lol

dilo, utah, galli, and maia are all faster, no?

[sage marsh]

Not when charging good sir. And no I believe only Gali is faster by default. The other do get faster with speed mutation though until the Carno charges

[dusky surge]

no.

only galli, and that's if its diet is good

[versed rune]

what are their speeds

[sage marsh]

All of them save Gali are under 50. I dont know their exact numbers but Carno right now is 49.5 base and they are all slower than that.

[dusky surge]

omni: 46.8
maia: 46.9
dilo: 47.5
carno: 49.5 (59.4 if charging)

the only issue is speed mutations, which is gross

[versed rune]

why are speed mutations

like.... a thing?

[sage marsh]

Oh we do have the charging speed. That's good.

[dusky surge]

great question

absolutely amazing question honestly

[versed rune]

like, speed muts sound really metagamey, i thought it was galli's little perk to get speed boosts

and carno with charge i guess

but no free speed boosts for everyone ig

[dusky surge]

people justify it by saying "oh but its only 5%"

5% is enough for cerato to outspeed pachy

[sage marsh]

I mean same question needs to be asked about gastro healing but 🤷‍♂️

[dusky surge]

gastro healing is honestly less disruptive lmao

[versed rune]

speaking as someone who has spent the past 8 months obsessively balancing their path of titans server to be perfect

5% IS A MASSIVE BOOST

[sage marsh]

I mean, it's on the same level for me. However I will admit it's really only disruptive against packs. Cerato packs namely

[dusky surge]

in a game ENTIRELY dictated by speed as the most IMPORTANT stat, I wonder if a 5% boost would be meta, especially when some creatures are literal fractions of speed apart for their own survival

[versed rune]

gastro healing?

[sage marsh]

You eat and heal from it

[versed rune]

this is new, havent heard of it

what dinos can use it?

[dusky surge]

all

[versed rune]

herbivores im guessing

[dusky surge]

if it can eat food it can heal from it

[versed rune]

oh. nevermind then

[sage marsh]

No the biggest offenders right now are Ceratos

[dusky surge]

wanna know why damage muts didn't pop off as much as people thought? because speed is an infinitely more important stat

actually, you know, this brings me to the mutation that might as well be the entire reason carno's whole niche doesn't work at all

[versed rune]

so

hypothetically

can community servers disable mutations entirely

[sage marsh]

Big packs will fight like stegos or something and when one dies they will all go eat off the corpse back to full health

[dusky surge]

they can disable the lame ones and keep all the interesting ones, which is better

[sage marsh]

Yes, several I've play on have gastro and speed mutations turned off

[versed rune]

oh so u can literally just pick and choose which muts to allow? thats sweet

[dusky surge]

yup

[versed rune]

thank GOD lol

[dusky surge]

you can also tweak their numbers

so the values applied vary

[versed rune]

big news for people who want to have fun

also, custom stats are in the works, correct?

[dusky surge]

no idea. personally, not a fan of custom stats, so i dont keep track of it

[sage marsh]

Eventually Evrima community servers will be like PoT community servers where you can tweak dino stats and eventually mods. At least those have been talked about.

[dusky surge]

probably gonna stop playing on custom servers once the community starts being able to balance, because if there's anyone i trust the least with game balance, it's the community of this game

[versed rune]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-chemistry-experiment-scientific-walter-white-gif-17820266

me carefully crafting the "accurate carnotaurus" mod

[versed rune]

i promise u assuming that the right stats are editable, mine will be good

[sage marsh]

People do it on PoT. Mods for playables already in the game. But i assume you know that. 1 for Cera, 1 for Allo, 1 for Rex another for trike the list goes on

[versed rune]

mhm pot has amazing customization

sometimes you're limited but there is almost always a workaround to a problem

[sage marsh]

The main Redeeming quality about it. Cause all the up punching and tail riding made me quit

[dusky surge]

listen man, i like the cut of your jib, but i really dont know if i can take that as true atm lol. i've seen a lot of wild takes from a lot of people who think they know how best to "fix" the balance

the best part about PoT is that stupid mod that lets you play as that idiot horseshoe crab basically everything else about it fails to engage me

[versed rune]

i will say the amount of punching up in PoT is dependent on player skill and the balance of the server

[dusky surge]

if i could play PoT for free I'd just play the idiot crab

[versed rune]

also many apexes can handle smaller animals a lot better now

but again

[sage marsh]

Um make deino 14 tons. Mmk? It'll be great mmk. It can grab everything and never die mmk. Absolutely perfect mmk.

[versed rune]

the main downfall with pot is that the quality of your experience is WILDLY server dependent

[dusky surge]

i still hate the fact that a megalania can take a full bite from a rex and take like 1/6th of its health

thats dumb and stupid

why does everything in that game hit like a pillow pet

[versed rune]

you do get used to it over time, but also PoT rex is an anomaly

it's just absurdly bad

[dusky surge]

i watched a raptor tank a rex bite in stride then heal it back within 2 minutes

[sage marsh]

I hate meg. I'm terrified of when it comes to evrima. PoT has given me an absolute loathing for that monster

[dusky surge]

oh that's because PoT's meg is utter ass

like from a design perspective or even BEING a meg

[versed rune]

also a rex bite currently cuts a PoT meg's health in half give or take

depends on locational

tail hits for all dinos are very forgiving

you need to aim for the body and head to be successful

pot is definitely better as a fighting game though, much less of a survival game

[sage marsh]

Yep, which is why I'm on Evrima now. That and tail riding meta.

[dusky surge]

i personally prefer the isle for that reason. love the survival experience over dino fight club, feels like dino fight club loses the allure of the challenge

[versed rune]

fair enough lol, my basic philosophy is that everything should have a unique character trait that gives you a reason to play it, but that what it does is versatile, and doesnt limit you

[versed rune]

in concept i do prefer isle for the brutality of the fights

but it just doesnt hit the same for me atm

[sage marsh]

Yes, so why does PoT sucho exist when PoT Spino is right there?

[versed rune]

wdym

dont ask me that, ask alderon xd

[sage marsh]

They're the same thing. Spino is just bigger. At least that was the case when I last played.

Laten and Deinonychus same thing

[versed rune]

but on my server i spec'd into making spino into a tank, while sucho plays like a grizzly bear. slow until it wants you dead

also, roster bloat does not affect PoT NEARLY as much as it does isle

[dusky surge]

actually, that's a good point, and a big reason why i dislike PoT

dinos are just statpools and ability choices, they don't truly feel like they're distinct much beyond these components. Playing a herrera is nothing like playing a beipi is nothing like playing a dilo is nothing like playing a maia, etc

[versed rune]

they have gotten much better with this, although i do agree

[dusky surge]

like beipi alone is just really fun, especially with its recent buffs where now it just shreds he who dare enter its water with the bleed of 1000 knives

they made beipi really feel like a therizinosaur because you get hit once and then woe, bleed upon thee

[sage marsh]

Herrera is the best most unique experience available in pretty much any survival game right now. I truly believe that it will have people playing it even once (if) Evrima's roster is complete

[versed rune]

the most well designed dinos in pot RN are pycno, hatz, iggy, daspleto, miragaia, rhamph, and a few others

they all feel very distinct and unique in fighting style

the older dinos suffer from lack of unique qualities

[sage marsh]

Pycno can go die in a hole. I am forever scarred by the knockback charge.

[versed rune]

i love pycno so much

feels like what isle carno shouldve been

[dusky surge]

i actually prefer the distinction in survival over fighting, which i think is why I prefer The Isle. Creatures tend to feel like they do a lot different in how they engage with their threats and environment. Dryo being an evasive, agile little nocturnal herbivore is really fun, it'd be perfect with burrows

[sage marsh]

Knockbacks are awful and Pycno taught me that. Let me rephrase. Knockback plus speed is awful.

[versed rune]

my low stakes conspiracy theory is that PoT timed their pycno TLC update just in time for isle's carno nerfs

"look, they ruined carno. WE made carno better! come play our game instead!"

and i mean, hell

it worked

[sage marsh]

Exactly. Cerato's concept would never work in a game like PoT. Well...it wouldn't work well.

[dusky surge]

wouldnt surprise me given the deinocheirus thing

[versed rune]

LOL THAT ONE IS STILL CRAZY

[sage marsh]

What did they do to duck?

[dusky surge]

god i love cerato, conceptually

i do not feel the same about cerato literally

[versed rune]

but honestly, smart business model

[sage marsh]

They havnt massacred my boi have they?

[dusky surge]

didnt they add the night terror update around the same time as troo

like god damn

[versed rune]

isle revealed duck concept art, a day later PoT released their duck fully playable

[sage marsh]

Lmao

[versed rune]

i.... dont know.....

to be honest i didnt gaf about troodon so i didnt rlly pay attention

[dusky surge]

i love troodon and still love troodon

fave animal to this day

[sage marsh]

Maybe Dondi is right, people be stalking the Evrima team for ideas and timing releases

[versed rune]

troodon would be worth being a playable if players could take over AI troodon hordes

like, hear me out

[dusky surge]

you've already upset me with your words

[versed rune]

passive hordes of troodon sacttered on the island, they wont attack anything

NAH NAH HEAR ME OUT

[dusky surge]

AI dinos my despised

[versed rune]

the player troodon finds the horde

[dusky surge]

i want that for COMPY if anything

[versed rune]

and takes over as leader and controls them

[dusky surge]

imagine. compy rts gameplay

would make me laugh my ass off