balance-feedback-discussion

[distant torrent]

not too sure about that either. dibble is notorious for doing “donuts” even with that ping lol you think the dibble isn’t facing you but boy are you mistaken

the donuts were painful when a friend and I were doing some testing

[molten fern]

so yeah basically you know exactly what would happen if we figth in that matchup

the dibble would dunk on the cera so bad its not even funny

[distant torrent]

in a good environment it wouldn’t as long as that cera gets the first bite in before the knockdown attack registers

[molten fern]

simple just come and show me then change my mind after countless of figths

[distant torrent]

dibbles puke to face hits strangely. you’d imagine they wouldn’t because of the reduced damage

nah

[molten fern]

yeah kinda what i tougth never had any herbie main accept to back their talk

[heady zealot]

While we’re talking about weight changes with troodon, why in the Hell is Hera 385 pounds??!

[distant torrent]

you can find someone just as willing on norden to test with you. there are people there all the time eager for fights

no need to throw hands about what I main because I’m not interested in testing right now lol

[molten fern]

ohh yeah everyone else than peapole here just agrees what i have said pretty much

[distant torrent]

not even sure if I’d consider myself an herbie main right now anyways because I’ve been playing carnivore more than herbivore lately

[molten fern]

look at your name

[distant torrent]

reactions to my name bring me so much serotonin lol

[molten fern]

reaction and assuming you play mostly herbies a diffrent thing

and yeah not a single cera has brougth me down anything below yellow. Dipping below green id say you have to skill issue pretty bad.

[dusky surge]

advocating for herbivore buffs and actively playing herbivores are two different things

[heady zealot]

Herrera being like 5ft tall and 385 pound is like seeing a morbidly obese Filipino jumping 60 feet across tree limbs

[dusky surge]

i main troodon and herrera but am still one of stego's biggest advocates (despite HATING playing it)

although the HT solves a ton of my issues with it so that's nifty

[distant torrent]

I will not touch stego with a 20 foot pole

[heady zealot]

What does being a troodon/ Hera main have to do with that? I don’t even touch them past the baby stage, but as Hera pouncing a baby stego is fun

[dusky surge]

i mainly play carnivores yet still want herbivores to get more attention than they have because they're absolutely way clunkier than carnivores across the board

[molten fern]

mainly playing a stego is just boring. If playing as one you would have to defend yourself more often than once every 10 hours it could be fun and interesting to play

[dusky surge]

oh i dont care how often it has to defend itself

my issue is more how much it sucks to control in said fight

if the actual fight sucks, the hell am i waiting for

and with the way stego's stam, cooldown and controls were before this HT, it was never enjoyable to control

now the only outlying issue is its absurdly high stamcost, but getting 2 out of 3 is still a mostly positive score

[molten fern]

the powerswing addition it was and is on live a bit clunky. Does not make stego any less effective

[heady zealot]

Oh, yeah me too. I play almost exclusively Raptor, Troodon, and Hererra. Deino too but I play so little at a time because I don’t wanna start over lol.

[dusky surge]

i honestly could personally give a rats ass about effective when base gamefeel is off

you can make a playable character unviable as sin, as long as they're fun to control, people WILL play it

[molten fern]

yeah but it being a bit cluncky to control is allso not an execuse to make them super overtuned compared to carnis

[dusky surge]

its not even that overtuned tbh

[neon hound]

#balance-feedback message We getting climbing also it isn't that slow is it

[steel fox]

It really is, was in a pack with a few different saurs earlier (Dilo, Troo, even encountered a Deino at one point) and every single one of them either outsped me or kept up. Deino had to use their sprint but they kept up. Climbing seems cool but I don’t think it will help an insane amount.

[neon hound]

That is literally not possible the run speed of deino on land is 18 km and Hypsi is 39 km

[steel fox]

You’re on HT?

[neon hound]

Though I do agree that it does need a speed buff

[steel fox]

Cause I was fully grown and being kept up with

[neon hound]

Yes and it keep the same speed I believe

[neon hound]

How old was the deino

[steel fox]

To my knowledge, juvi

[neon hound]

Actually that doesn't matter they speed is slower at younger age

[steel fox]

I’m 90% sure they nerfed Hypsi speed, may need to try with another deino though

[neon hound]

I don't think they did as that's just stupid Troo and Dilo makes sense though I doubt that dilo could trot to keep up you running

[steel fox]

They were the ones pointing it out lol, I was sprinting to keep up and as soon as they would sprint I would lose them- They were moving faster than me the entire time

[neon hound]

Speed hackers

[steel fox]

I highly doubt it

[neon hound]

The deino

[steel fox]

Deino is very possibly a hacker lol

[neon hound]

There is no possible way a deino could keep up with anything on land

[dusky surge]

they didnt, hypsi is just naturally slower than most creatures

and yea, if a deino at any point is keeping up with a hypsi, it's absolutely hacking

[steel fox]

Ok, that makes me feel better about the deino- but still, why should it not be fast? It feels bad to play and be able to get ganked by essentially anything.

[dusky surge]

high agility, stam and a small size allow it to evade most predators, and it's getting climbing at some point

[sonic flame]

Also there’s a certain point where an animation simply can’t go any faster

Hypsi’s feet barely touch the ground as-is, to go any faster would require breaking or ignoring the animation

[neon willow]

Honestly I think climbing would help hypsi to the point that it would eliminate the need to be fast. Look at herrera-- they don't need to be faster than large predators, they just need to get to a nearby tree before the predator reaches them. The squirrel method of surviving predation, if you will. Hypsi is likely similar- Dodge and weave and evade long enough to get to a tree, then skedaddle out of there. The only thing able to follow into a tree right now is a Herrera, and presumably hypsi will be able to either jump down and run after that Herrera or juke said Herrera in the trees

[heady zealot]

If they give Hypsi a faster horizontal climb speed than Herrera then it should keep them relatively safe in the tree

[clever valley]

Long ago I suggested that hypsi spit should make herras fall off of a tree to defend better, as herra is hard to see anyways, and if a hypsi sees you, you can just jump away

[heady zealot]

That’s actually a good idea, and maybe once hit the Herrera is highlighted for a short time for the Hypsi

[steep echo]

They have that option but they're still 45km/h, hypsi is pretty shafted

[uncut trellis]

Do the changes to ceratos bile mean it’s dealing less?

[dusky surge]

yes

multiplied by 0.5 is halving

[uncut trellis]

Neato, we shall see how this turns out

Unless anyone has opinions on this they’d like to share

[neon hound]

#balance-feedback message Don't put this stuff in balance feedback and don't spam

[golden coral]

@copper ridge What's the actual issues? I'd be inclined to agree that overall, balance has been interesting at times, but it still seems like it's more or less okay. Cera got a bile fix just now, at that.

[distant torrent]

any info on how many normal bites/charge bites it takes to vomit things like carno, teno, dib, and stego?

[golden coral]

Nope, but change says .5, so it's half as effective, I think?

[distant torrent]

so still pretty powerful at first glance lol everything in 2-3 bites if it was vomited in 1 or 4 bites if it was previously vomited by 2

back to square one when it didn’t have the one shot vomit

but a little bit more powerful than that

[coarse blaze]

Can baby stego no longer swing normally? I can only powerstance when I hit RMB and I have manual alt attacks checkmarked.

[golden coral]

Jab is alt now, if you check manual alt, you'll have to hold alt to use it, I think

[heady zealot]

@analog mirage I like the troodon venom change, I think a nighttime ambush by troodons should feel a LOT scarier

[coarse blaze]

Thank you!

[hasty coyote]

@analog mirage Overall good idea, but personally I'd make the increased stam consumption only affect sprinting. Troodon has good agility and a tiny hitbox to make landing your hits difficult. Especially with the changes making troodon not require stam to pounce, I think increasing the stam costs on attacks as well as bucking is overkill and makes troodon way too good at wearing down prey. Making the increased stam cost affect running stam helps prevent the main flaw troodon runs into: people just run at stage 3.

[analog mirage]

The neat thing about troodon is it doesn’t hold on like Omni does. So you don’t really need to buck troodon off. They get off on their own

The issue with it only being for running means they just have to stand still and alt attack spam

So if it affects both, the player just needs to make more of a choice of “fight or flight”

And if they choose to run that’s when the pounce changes come in so it can utilize its stam more for running

[hasty coyote]

I thought they changed that with the bucking changes, so now its able to hold on, but its still much more effective to tap pounce because of the risk involved.

[analog mirage]

For Omni yes

[hasty coyote]

and they can just alt spam while out of stam, so I don't see a difference other than forcing alt spam to be the only option

[analog mirage]

Troodon I think CAN hold on but I’m not sure if they can continue biting

[analog mirage]

Being out of stam is another thing that should be brought up.

[hasty coyote]

they always could hold on, I just remember hearing that they can still deal damage while holding on.

[analog mirage]

Attacks should be slower and easier to bait

With cooldowns

Punish the player more for being out of stam while still being able to attack

[analog mirage]

I’ll have to test that

[hasty coyote]

I really don't think troodon needs much more direct buffs to prevent targets from fighting back like that. Like troodon is already very strong, main issue is just latency being a death sentence and the prey running away. Latency will always be a thing sadly, but buffs to that extent are a bit overkill.

because at the end of the day, this thing is 60kg and a 45 min grow, it shouldnt be able to kill things 20x its size with ease.

then we have to balance all the other smalls its competing with to do the same, and balance just gets messy.

[analog mirage]

By itself no

Though the devs have actively said troodon are basically glass canons

[golden coral]

A full pack, killing things up to 5x the "size" would come to 3T, which seems a little high, if teno is more or less the "high end" for it

And the main issue seems to be things just running away, so just having stamina cost multiplied for running would work for that

And I think troodon can hold on and do damage now, yes

[hasty coyote]

with those changes it easily could, people are already able to solo up to dilos (over 10x its size). With those changes, it makes troodon swarms much better at wearing something MUCH larger than they are down and just mauling it.

especially since pounce has no stam cost with that change, it now doesnt have a limiter on how much it can deal

[golden coral]

This seems way too harsh, it's already difficult to hit the little buggers. And please no cooldowns, it's just bleh for anything really.

[analog mirage]

This is if you are out of stamina

[golden coral]

Even so, cooldowns are just horrible overall, and even slowing it down is bad, there's already a lowered damage on being out of stam from what I know so

[hasty coyote]

I understand the idea behind the changes make troodon feel much better to play, but it makes playing against them actually painful.
Like what can a diablo do against that troodon? It can't run, its attacks are baitable, it can't just out tank the troo, and after a bit its baitable attacks are even worse. All it can do is hope for latency to kill the troo.

[analog mirage]

I mean

[golden coral]

Well, a solo one would still most likely not win, but a decent sized pack, that'd do it, and well, that depends on if it should then

[analog mirage]

If a dibble is attacked by a horde of 6+ troodons I think they should be a reasonable threat

[golden coral]

Disagree, teno should be about the highest a 10 member pack takes on, so about 2T

Dibble is another entire T up, that should be too high

[analog mirage]

I dislike giving things limits to what they can fight especially in groups. I would say something like a Teno should be what it primarily goes after but that shouldn’t stop them from hunting larger animals

[golden coral]

There has to be limits though, otherwise it makes little to no sense

[analog mirage]

Almost any carnivore in a group should be somewhat of a threat. You are outnumbered

[golden coral]

Or you get things like omnis hunting a spino or brachio, or troodons hunting stegos or rexes

[hasty coyote]

I'm genuinely talking about a single or even just 2 troodons. A good omni can juke out a diablo for like 15 minutes, only thing stopping it from killing a diablo is the stam. Since troodon is both smaller and now has infinte stam, its just better at killing stuff like diablos than omni. 6 troodons would just be death for a diablo with those changes.

[golden coral]

No amount of numbers should allow for unlimited punching up, I can't see any reason for that

[golden coral]

The thing is, the "outnumbered" is what you need to equal one larger thing

It's not a "you're outnumbered by equal threats", it's 10 troodons equal a teno

Not "outnumbered by 9 other tenos"

Hence why there needs to be limits

[hasty coyote]

Heres the issue with that. If a pack of troos can fight a rex, what is a teno supposed to do against them? unless a teno can fight a rex.

[golden coral]

10 troodons if we go by weight, would equal 600 kg, a dilo, more or less

[analog mirage]

I mean you have to consider if a fight is reasonable. 2 troodons obviously isn’t gonna take a dibble down very easily. They COULD, but will they? Prob not

6 troodons which is far more than 2 IS a lot to deal with

[golden coral]

If we grant them a bit more power due to venom, 3x the "weight" is still 1800

[analog mirage]

Why should something in a group be limited by weight math?

[golden coral]

The issue is that it shouldn't be doable, like at all, if you only got two of them

[golden coral]

Why should it not? Balance?

[analog mirage]

There is this thing called they are one shot

[hasty coyote]

You are just not grasping the point I'm making, 2 WOULD be enough to consistently kill diablos with those changes.

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter for the point, and is mitigated by "can't be hit due to size and agility"

But that doesn't really change that there should be some kind of limits, otherwise we'd argue enough hypsis will kill a brachio and so on

And I'm sorry, but there's no way you're going to convince me that even 50 troodons should ever touch something like a brachio, or anky or spino or so on

Or a shant for that matter, at some point it should be a matter of "out of range"

[analog mirage]

If two troodon go after a single adult dibble. It’s gonna take them awhile to pounce it to death

That’s plenty of time for the dibble to hit them

[golden coral]

Why should it even be doable for two of them?

[analog mirage]

I’m not saying it should be

In saying if they did, it’s going to take a long time

[golden coral]

In what world would two troodon need to go after a full grown dibble in the first place

[analog mirage]

Again I’m not saying they should

They in theory could. But is it gonna be a fight worth taking? Prob not

[golden coral]

Fair enough, but then I don't really see why having "soft" limits would be bad

[analog mirage]

I mean there should be general things you stick to hunting I agree

[golden coral]

I'm not arguing for anything like "can't do damage if too large", but limitations in stamina, or how badly something can effect something, more like that

[analog mirage]

But an entire horde of troodon like 6-10 just shouldn’t be pushovers even for something like a dibble

[golden coral]

And I am not sure on the charge change, I like the idea that predators can run out of stam and have to give up for that reason

So I'd focus more on just limiting the ability to run away, to ensure the troodons can keep the fight going

But if they do miss too much, or overuse their pounces, or get chased around too much, they might have to give up due to no more stam to use

[golden coral]

Eh, it depends, I've heard a solo teno is where the "limit" is supposed to to be, so I'm arguing from that point, and that'd make dibble very much a "extreme" case, unless the dibble is already a bit wounded

@analog mirageAlso, what is the lowest NV? Would stego get even worse NV?

[hasty coyote]

If troodon still deals 75 damage a pounce, thats 40 pounces, 20 each. So if they were to pounce every 8 sec cd, its 160 seconds. Thats less than 3 minutes.

If we were to say instead they landed an average of one pounce every 10 seconds, thats still less than 7 minutes for 2 troodons to kill a diablo. Meanwhile a diablo only has like 2-3 minutes of stam if its throwing attacks consistently to try and hit one of them. Which means for 4-5 mintues, the diablo is using the incredibly slow alts. So itt basically only takes 2-3 minutes to kill a diablo, and 5 minutes of not being dumb.

[golden coral]

Don't they do like 130 or so damage on third stage pounces?

[hasty coyote]

was it buffed to 130? Then yeah just literally HALF the times I stated, diablo dies in 3 minutes to 2 troodons

[analog mirage]

I believe stego or gali has the worst so that would just be what it goes down to

[leaden remnant]

excuse me

[golden coral]

I think it was buffed yes, pretty sure it does a bit over 100 at the least. Not 100% sure, but maybe if one of our resident troodon mains checks in, they can clarify. But it got the damage buffed a way back at least.

[leaden remnant]

is this about troodon causing "stamina damage"?

[golden coral]

Fair enough then

[golden coral]

Look in the feedback, we're talking about the various suggestions Spooky offered

[leaden remnant]

i see

[golden coral]

I'm in favour of letting the venom just increase stam drain for running, or perhaps even prevent running when at third stage, trotting only or so. Not so sure on most of the rest of the feedback.

[leaden remnant]

wouldnt that be a bit too crazy

like preventing running

[cosmic pelican]

lmao that would make troodon like the best carno killer

[hasty coyote]

either way, I forgot to account for the extra stam consumption. so diablo has like 2-3 minutes if it conserves stam.

[leaden remnant]

and stam drain...

[golden coral]

Maybe? I honestly don't know, I'm just thinking on the whole "prevent things from just running away" without making it harder for them to properly fight the troodons

[leaden remnant]

i see

[golden coral]

Hey, whats the pounce damages these days?

[hasty coyote]

I prob wouldnt outright prevent running, because many dinos constantly move while defending themselves, like pachy and omni.

[golden coral]

Oh and do you get stam back when you pounce a third stage target?

[cosmic pelican]

40 for stage 0 and 1, 80 for stage 2 and 120 for stage all (DoT included in all of them which is around an extra 20dmg over 5 seconds)

[golden coral]

Well, one idea I've seen is that troodon bites could drain a little chunk of stamina. So you'd use pounce for the venom/damage, and the bites to chip in stam damage.

[golden coral]

Thank you. Do you know anything about the stam return on pounce?

[cosmic pelican]

wdym?

[leaden remnant]

woulnd that be a bit too crazy tho?

[cosmic pelican]

like how much it costs with the extra stam cost of hanging on?

[golden coral]

Someone in Isle discussion said a troodon main had told them that if you pounce something on the third stage of venom, it doesn't cost you stam/alternatively that you'd get stam back or something. Nothing I've ever heard before, didn't want to tag you in, but since you're here now, might as well ask.

[hasty coyote]

eh, only issue with that is it becomes a stats game, can the troodons just burn all your stam or do they just kill you normally?

similar to omni pin

[cosmic pelican]

Thats just misinformation haha

I would not want troodon buffs if that was a thing

[golden coral]

Again, maybe it would. I'm no good at this, but people do want troodon to be better or more effective at hunting things down

[cosmic pelican]

infinite stage 3 pounces would even be too strong, even to my own, extremely biased self

[golden coral]

So just mentioning things I've seen otherwise

[leaden remnant]

what's the true issue in hunting things down rn?

[golden coral]

So noted then, figured as much, but always good to ask!

[golden coral]

That they just run away when they hit third stage venom I believe

The potato here could probably explain it far better

[hasty coyote]

genuinely, I think troodon just needs venom to help prevent running at stage 3 (not outright prevent it, but make it a bad option) and latency overall needs some fixes, it really messes with smalls.

[golden coral]

Do troodon apply venom on bites, anyone knows? Heard that mentioned too, but not something I've seen or heard otherwise

[leaden remnant]

wouldnt be an issue if you could just run it down and get yoru stamina back in a normal damn pace

[cosmic pelican]

Nope

[leaden remnant]

so i blame it on stamina

[hasty coyote]

hits stage 3, guess its my time to leave, runs away for all its stam. Now troodons are incredibly low on stam if they even are able to catch up to what they were hunting, and its out of 3rd stage so they have to work all over again.

[cosmic pelican]

Troodons bite, and facekick too is literally useless

[leaden remnant]

solution: make stamina regen normal

[cosmic pelican]

But at least facekick can bug out and apply venom

[leaden remnant]

ez

[hasty coyote]

except that goes for both sides. If troodon can regain its stam, so can the target. So now the target just gets to run for the whole 3rd stage with little detriment.

[leaden remnant]

not if troodon has one of the best

[hasty coyote]

then that just makes troodon op against things its own size.

[leaden remnant]

not if small things have the best regens

[hasty coyote]

the easiest solution imo is just to make running cost more stam while 3rd stage.

[leaden remnant]

instead of like 1:50 it is for troodon rn which is unbearably stupid, should be about 100 seconds

[golden coral]

Yeah, just add a stam cost to running when at third stage, at the least, start there

[leaden remnant]

or 80 seconds

and without curves

[golden coral]

I'll just point out, we all should have enough experience to know how bad things get when multiple things are changed, be it buffs or nerfs, so let's try with just something like limiting ability to run away at third stage and see how that goes, before doing more.

You can't always go back to "stamina system bad, remove it" you know :p

[hasty coyote]

except you realize this cascades up really quickly right? If troodon has godly stam, then stuff its size need godly stam. If stuff its size have godly stam, then the things above it need better stam, and so do the things above them, until we end up in the exact situation but everyone runs for 3 years.

its the exact reason troodon got the hp nerf

back to its weight'

[leaden remnant]

the things above it wouldn't need better stamina tho

im basically saying that if this stamina wasnt as bad as it is right now we wouldnt have this problem and many many more

[hasty coyote]

and I'm saying troodon's stam isnt the issue, its the fact the prey can just run

plus, if we just buff troodons stam, it now also becomes better at hunting everything, not just those who run away

[leaden remnant]

we buff everything's stamina

we stop the bs and we go back to the old system that worked perfectly fine

[hasty coyote]

Then we end up in square one

[leaden remnant]

and we solve many issues not only troodon

[hasty coyote]

target hits stage 3, runs for 45 seconds, and now isnt punished

[leaden remnant]

you'd get it fast enough to avoid the prey running away like they do rn

[hasty coyote]

So, instead of fixing the one issue, instead change basically every matchcup troodon has, potentially every matchup in the game, and then also have to buff troodon anyway?

[golden coral]

Also going back to a system the devs did not want

[hasty coyote]

sounds like its a troodon issue and you're just dragging in change for the stam system

[leaden remnant]

well every single reason they gave was complete bs so i dont get it

[leaden remnant]

yes yes im just messing around tbh 😭

but really the issue is simple to fix by doing what i mentioned and you fix many other issues by doing that

[golden coral]

You don't have to get it, just accept it

[leaden remnant]

i know

[golden coral]

Wait for server settings and mods, then we'll fix all the issues!

[leaden remnant]

so i wouldnt understand making venom more complicated when you can just do a fix that also fixes about 5-10 other things

[golden coral]

And I'd be down to try your configuration and see how it feels

[honest wasp]

I think I’ve learned my lesson folks…stop buying “still in development games.”

[golden coral]

Might be a good idea yes

[hasty coyote]

except it doesnt fix the venom issue, and also causes a whole host of other issues.

[honest wasp]

You get what you paid for. In this case…it’s looking at a meteorite for an eternity without knowing when it will come.

[golden coral]

Depends a little on when you got the game, I think

[honest wasp]

To be fair I think when dibble came out it was a good time to invest.

However dibble still needs to be its actual weight.

But nah let’s tweak the numbers like it’s a League Patch

[cosmic pelican]

Dibble needs to be 3 tons tbh so when apexes come they wont just starve to death

[hasty coyote]

honestly at this point I thint its fine as is. It could be rebalanced to be smaller but 3 tons functions.

[honest wasp]

No…when Rex comes out…other Large herbivores need to be added too…lol

[cosmic pelican]

there needs to be something that bridges the gap between a 1.6 ton teno and the 6 ton behemoth that is stego

[hasty coyote]

to give credit where its due, most league patches barely tweak numbers, not doubling someone's hp lol

[golden coral]

Poor dibble, relegated to rex food, just like the old days

[cosmic pelican]

Am I wrong though? If we exclude dibble the only viable prey option an adult rex would have is stego

[honest wasp]

Maiasaur

[cosmic pelican]

And trike I guess when it comes out

[golden coral]

No, you got a point. I just find it funny because it's how it was when dibble first was put in properly

[cosmic pelican]

3 viable prey options from the entire roster, and one of those 3 is less than half its size meaning it will barely get anything from it woo

[golden coral]

Well, it'll eat all the stegos at least!

[hasty coyote]

even then, diablo should not be something rex can consistently hunt imo, its far too weak comparatively for a rex to be able to consistently catch.

[cosmic pelican]

I mean yeah but... ambush

also sub rex food

rn transitioning from hunting teno sized stuff as a small sub, to immediately needing to hunt stegos would be rough for a sub rex

dibble is perfect to bridge that gap

[honest wasp]

You see another hidden problem with this game….an underrated thought…one reason why balancing is so difficult in this game is because you have dinosaurs from all time periods meshed on 1 island.

[golden coral]

Very true

[heady zealot]

I agree, plus people are forgetting that a pack of 10 troodons fighting something large, at least a few will either die or take enough damage that they’re out of the fight. I don’t see 10 troodons taking out a stego just because the chance that the stego kills a few right off the bat is pretty high.

[eager saddle]

#balance-feedback message @worldly gust So let me get this straight. 1: you want damage when running with a broken leg. 2: You want a chance to hurt yourself more when doing so. 3: You think that reducing speed immensely for a dinosaur isn't enough.

You DO realize that if any of these changes make it through, Pachy players will never EVER run away right? Cuse why would they? The opponent can't run because they either die from the damage they take by doing so or risk getting a worse injury. But it can also not fight back enough against the uncrippled pachy. You'd be making Pachy more carnivore like than an herbivore. Also, dinos DO slow down when they get a leg injury, Carno is just one of THE worst examples you could choose for speed.

[worldly gust]

Yeah, fair enough. Sprinting with a fractured leg just doesn't seem very realistic to me, but being slowed down by the current amount is probably enough. I didn't mean a lot of damage though. Just a tiny bit to simulate how painful it would be to try to run with a fractured leg. However, now that you mention it, any damage at all might be too far.

I know that leg fractures already slow you down. The reason I mentioned Carno specifically is because I've never understood how anything with two legs could continue to move as fast as they do when one of their legs is fractured. Unless maybe it's a really mild hairline fracture, but I doubt a headbutt from an adult Pachy would do that little.

You make a good point about Pachy players as well. I was mainly considering my own playstyle when I typed that, as I would use the opportunity to escape rather than keep fighting, but perhaps I am the less common variety of Pachy player. I have seen a lot of Pachy players that are hyper aggressive and go out of their way to attack things.

In summary, I admit my suggestion was deeply flawed, and it should probably be ignored.

[wet star]

@analog mirage only don’t like because of the charge idea. especially with how pounce can be. anything with charges feels clunky with the exception of maybe dilo since dilo charges aren’t based on its mobility

I do like the stam idea though and even the nv one if they want a visual effect still!

[dusky surge]

I think it should work like Dibble charges

You CAN pounce without charges, but it'll cost you stam

[wet star]

this could be a fair compromise but I just don’t think it needs the charges at all. if the other suggestions were implemented it wouldn’t need to worry so much about stam in the first place

it would be effectively lowering its prey stam and wouldn’t have to worry so much about running out of its own within a pack

[eager saddle]

It is fine. The thought behind the suggestion is fine (i dont see a lot of pachy players so a change would be appreciated) but when I do, they aren’t running away types unless you’re in a massive group.

Regarding the running while with a fracture, some animals (and humans to some degree) have a high pain tolerance and barely show it. But ya know, it’s also for the sake of balance 🙂

[glossy elbow]

@golden wasp here i made a better suggestion diablo is fine considering it's not gonna be long before rex exists so probably best not to nerf it rn

[golden wasp]

either way, I think personally they are fine as is. I think their attack and turning radius do need to be addressed tho

[glossy elbow]

yeah that'd be nice

[eternal oak]

@analog mirage #balance-feedback message I like this but I don’t think it’ll make carno a better small game hunter, or well, it will make carno a better small game hunter, but I think it’s also going to make carno an absolute menace to larger things

But I’d say that’s more of an issue with the small game hunter concept

Sinply put, the increased speed,size and damage mixed with the recent agility buff will cause carno to run rings around anything larger and more sluggish than itself

I’d add a reduction in turning rate to counter this

But that also comes with the fact that if carno doesn’t turn all too well he’s going to struggle to catch small things

Albeit a lot of players seem to forget the a/d keys exist

[neon hound]

I don't think Carno should go back to it's speed

It shouldn't be able to catch Galli

[eternal oak]

I think it should, cause thats kind of its whole thing

[neon hound]

We are talking about a small game hunter Galli ain't small game

[eternal oak]

However it HAS to come with an agility nerf

[eternal oak]

Thats… the worst take ive heard in ages…

[neon hound]

Galli can murder most of the roster right now

[eternal oak]

That doesnt make it not small game

[neon hound]

Galli is medium

[eternal oak]

It just… isnt…

cera, carno, teno and such are medium

Galli is small

[neon hound]

Ehh I see anything past like 300 weight to be medium

[dusky surge]

it currently can, and should

[neon hound]

Well yeah I get it should be able to be same speed and faster with charge but it Galli outmaneuvers it

[dusky surge]

also galli is absolutely small game for a carno, its not even half carno's size

[neon hound]

Yeah fair but I was more arguing in grand scheme of things

Galli is a medium sized playable

[dusky surge]

i dont think it's even that

[eternal oak]

In the Grand scheme of things we’d be comparing it to y know… Tyrannosaurus rex…

[neon hound]

Ok Raptor medium right

[eternal oak]

No

Raptor is also small

[neon hound]

Agree to disagree

[golden coral]

How is it not?

[neon hound]

Small to me is anything under 300 kg

Gn I don't have time for this anything under 300 kg isn't small to ME

[golden coral]

Yeah well, compared to carno, galli is small, so it's a suitable prey item

[dusky surge]

raptor def is not medium

[eternal oak]

Id say small is < 1 ton and medium is 1 ton > < 3 tons

[distant torrent]

I honestly never understood the want for a carno speed boost. it’s literally the fastest thing aside from a flying ptera when charging. never had an issue running away from dilos or omnis or chasing down gallis

the speed mutations make it even better

[eternal oak]

Eh, its just more convenient

[distant torrent]

yea but it doesn’t need it

[leaden remnant]

tbh a ton of things don't necessarily need something

but they get it for convenience

[distant torrent]

(except beipi’s water surface speed nerf )

[leaden remnant]

having said that, dilos with speed mutation are faster than a carno and have more stamina

[leaden remnant]

poor beipi

[distant torrent]

they done beipi dirty

[eternal oak]

I mean carno should be the fastest thing in the game, the charge should just be the ability that makes everything Else go OH SHI- as they realize the true speed of sarno

[leaden remnant]

mordor duck can't even travel properly

[leaden remnant]

perfect explanation imo

[eternal oak]

That was just unwarranted

[distant torrent]

carno can speed away and lose em

[distant torrent]

it really was

[leaden remnant]

yus but without ram speed boost it would just die miserably

[eternal oak]

Dilos are faster than carno straight up

Not charge tho

[leaden remnant]

47.5 compared to 49.5

solution is just removing speed mutations tbh

[eternal oak]

Wait i might be tripping

[distant torrent]

which is why it has it. ramming away doesn’t cost nearly as much stamina as it once did so it’s pretty easy

[eternal oak]

Thought carno was like, 49 and dilo was 49.5

[leaden remnant]

o

[leaden remnant]

yus i understand

[eternal oak]

I Think carno just needs his size, speed and damage back, and then his turning should be sent to the shadow realm

[distant torrent]

yea I think these values are right I remember my speed mut carno being around 51-52

[eternal oak]

I just wanna nuke the “small game hunter” concept, its not good

[distant torrent]

I personally like it. it makes small playables like omni tremble in fear and allows carno to kill a lot more things

it just needs to be able to eat less to get full and it’ll be perfect

[dusky surge]

i personally think small game hunter works fine for it. I'd prefer it have its bleeding speed tuned down

id actually give it bleed res, personally

small game hunter works fine for what carno is

[eternal oak]

I dont Think small game hunter works for anything at all, i have a whole list of reasons for that, but i genuinely Cannot be asked to argue about small game hunters for the 354th time

[leaden remnant]

yup

[dusky surge]

then i guess quetz is screwed lol

[eternal oak]

Quetz Will be fine i Think, we dont know anything about quetz yet so I don’t really know

[dusky surge]

but its literally a small game hunter

i dont see whats wrong with carno being a small game hunter given its speed, attack style and environment

omni gets to be a large game hunter but we cant have the alternate?

[eternal oak]

Well they’ve been trying to make carno a small game hunter for years now, and it still hasn’t quite been successful yet

[eternal oak]

I don’t really like the big game hunter thing either… so…

[dusky surge]

kinda leads to a lack of predator variety doesnt it

and makes stuff like troodon objectively extremely difficult to do anything with

[eternal oak]

I mean, I think every creature should pose some threat to every other creature, so that whenever you meet another player you always have to think twice

Like you mentioned troodon right

[dusky surge]

i disagree, i think some animals should simply not care about other animals

i.e. anky and most of the roster

kentro should literally be unphased by the existence of herreras

[eternal oak]

I can see it in that sense, yeah an anky really shouldnt be worryoing about other creatures all too much

But i Think carnivores should be designed to fairly Hunt Prey in their own size range, the creatures with pounce of course are very capable of punching up simply cause of how pounce is designed

But pounce is also really good at disembowling same size creatures

[dusky surge]

i personally dislike that idea. makes things homogenous and uninteresting. animals should be built around unique niches and playstyles

[eternal oak]

In carnos case its whole thing is being really god damn fast

So its obviously gonna be something like gallis biggest threat

[dusky surge]

exactly, its good at catching small, fast things lmao

[eternal oak]

However that added speed WILL also make carno Very good at overwhelming larger creatures

A carno player should know how to use its overwhelming speed to its advantage, and that advantage is most obvious when fighting larger more sluggish creatures

But carnos high speed should always come at the cost of its agility, that’s the entire reason it’s a fair creature

[dusky surge]

you'd have to rework everything about carno to make that work

[eternal oak]

Not really…

[dusky surge]

yes really

its core ability is literally not built at all for anything like that

[eternal oak]

What’d you have to rework then?

[dusky surge]

The charge, its entire base stats (again), its diet, etc

[eternal oak]

Well everythings stats have been changing forever, same with diets

I Think Update 3 carno was perfect

[dusky surge]

eh, i disagree there

[eternal oak]

Only things id change about Update 3 carno is Well… the stam should be the same as current carno since everythings stam changed for gateway

And it could maybe do with another ability, but so could current carno, feels kinda outdated sometimes considering how many abilities some of the newer creatures have

[dusky surge]

U3 carno with current stam would be disgusting

[eternal oak]

Why

[dusky surge]

because it still has the insane insta knockdown damage nuke charge

[eternal oak]

If I remember correctly, u3 carno had lower charge damage than current carno

[dusky surge]

it did not

[eternal oak]

What is current charge damage ?

[dusky surge]

100 damage normally, 125 on stun, 175 on knockdown

[eternal oak]

I did not in fact, remember correctly

In update 3 it was like, 250 damage on charge, 200 damage on bite, the end

And I prefer that, more simple

Might be a bit strong though, comparing it to the other creatures current damage values

Then again cera charge bite does like 350 or so damage

[dusky surge]

cera being broken is its own thing

[eternal oak]

I mean cera had like, the same charge bite damage before

[dusky surge]

and it was broken then

[eternal oak]

I don’t think so personally

I thought it was just fine

And now it insta vomits you

[coarse blaze]

That's very possibly not intended given the change that caused that issue was meant to prevent it.

[dusky surge]

given cera's bacteria, agility, its lack of stamcost on said charge, generally decent and unhindered speed, and how easy it is to spam, i'd say yea, it's broken

[coarse blaze]

I didn't hate the idea someone said where cera can't sprint and charge bite.

Making it more of a defensive tool than a chase one

[keen plover]

That would make it pretty useless tbh

Like you would never be hit by the full charge bite.

[coarse blaze]

I think useless is a bit dramatic, it'll still be more than useful for corpse defense but you're not wrong about someone waiting out the bites. I just don't currently like how effective cera is at hunting when it's whole niche is supposed to be a corpse bully.

It's been effective for quite a while, even before the broken bile bite.

Being able to infinitely use charge bite is a bit much too.

[distant torrent]

just lower its effectiveness when it doesn’t have a corpse

doesn’t do nearly as much bile without a corpse and lower its charge bite damage (OR make it so it can’t run while holding charge without a corpse reasonably nearby)

having charge bite cost stam without a corpse nearby would also be good option

[coarse blaze]

You can always wait out charge bites, it not being able to run and use it wouldn't really change that.

Needing something else, genuinely anything to adjust how it is now would make it more interesting. Right now it's just charge, chase, either hit or miss and repeat.

I don't hate the corpse idea above, that's better than just not being able to sprint.

I thought vomit was supposed to be a deterrent, not a hunting tool is all.

But you are right, Bird. It would be a bit funky not being able to sprint and it hindering the charge bite. I do think the corpse idea sounds more viable, I just want the charge bite changed to be more defensive in the end.

[keen plover]

Honestly, I think lowering the charge bite damage to 250 for example, lowering the bacteria even further off bodies, and making it to where it deals significantly more bacteria on bodies is enough to push it into that role

Also diablo still needs some tlcs lol. Having to stand completely still to use your thrash attack sucks...

Should be able to use it while running imo. Flip something > look down > thrash

[coarse blaze]

I think those would be a nice changes, I still wish it'd gain more bacteria from rotted corpses; paired with getting less bacteria from fresh ones it'd give people a reason to actually seek them out. Right now there's genuinely no reason to pick an old corpse over a fresh one. Overall that would all help it fit it's niche far more.

Diablo feels pretty funky to me still, in a lot of ways. The amount of things that need TLC is a bit long to be honest.

[keen plover]

It gains significantly more bacteria from rotten bodies btw.

You can't get full bacteria from a fresh body from 1 hunger bar either

[coarse blaze]

Oh? When was that changed, I never noticed it actually gave more.

[keen plover]

For a while honestly

[coarse blaze]

I stopped going for rot unless I was desperate so I genuinely didn't know that ever changed. Do rotten organs finally give the right nutrients or?

[keen plover]

nah

[coarse blaze]

Not sure how practical it is to vomit on a body, eat it once it's rotten to gain bile as opposed to just finding something else.

[keen plover]

They'll default to whatever the bodies (flesh) diet type is when rotten

[dusky surge]

i honestly think bacteria should passively drain over time tbh

[coarse blaze]

Ah, same old same old then for that. The bacteria is good to know though, I think then yeah; the changes you mentioned would do a good deal to help it.

I'm glad to have had this conversation, it changed my original perspective about the whole sprinting thing.

[coarse blaze]

Wouldn't be opposed to that really, I couldn't imagine the drain being that atrocious.

[dusky surge]

given that bacteria application scales with how much bacteria you have, having it drain passively over time would encourage cera to seek out and fight near/over corpses

[coarse blaze]

I haven't fought a cera on the new HT, did the dialing back help the insta-vomit issue much?

More so, I haven't seen a cera on the new HT.

That's a lie, I saw one. I take that back.

[cosmic pelican]

At most it can only make a carno vomit with 1 bite. And it has to be a fully charged bite on max bile.

(If the carno is 100% food)

[keen plover]

not really

[coarse blaze]

That feels odd still but far better than what it was 2 weeks ago.

I also noticed but wasn't sure what changed, I used the photo speed mutation but didn't actually gain much from it. Did they adjust the speed mutations?

My galli went from 55 before to 55 after, unless it changed by a few .%s I didn't notice.

I should clarify, on the HT.

[keen plover]

Should still be a 5% speed boost

[coarse blaze]

It did not change for me at the time, I'll have to grow something else maybe and see.

[distant torrent]

so it only has enough bile to vomit one carno now?

like if it had 85% bile, that’s not enough to vomit a carno?

(a carno on full food that is)

[cosmic pelican]

1 charged, then 1 normal bite would probably be enough

Its still far stronger than what it used to be

Vs carno at least

[distant torrent]

tragic

[mint star]

I was, and still am surprised, that it didn’t when cerato first released

I initially thought it would drain over time but

I guess it just doesn’t

[analog mirage]

By itself I severely doubt a Carno who can’t charge things bigger than it is gonna deal with large things well. If it gets a group of 3 or two it could punch up depending on the species. But that’s just the natural balance of having a group

You can’t charge anything larger than you meaning you can only rely on your bite

Really carnos biggest issue has always just been the lack of being able to knock down the small animals. As long as it can reliably do that and dish out enough damage to keep good pressure on them while not being able to charge large animals I don’t see the problem

[eternal oak]

the thing is... it doesnt need to charge, it has a perfectly good bite attack

heres how it would end up playing out

you got your like, stego or smth in the center, and carnos are running around it at lightning speeds, repeatedly biting its head coming from every angle, sure, the stego might get one or two hits in but as long as the carnos you know, actually try to not get hit, theyll win eventually

ive seen carnos do this plenty of times in earlier evrima, rarely using charge and instead going for lots of bites

carnos speed is such a good tool for overwhelming larger things, if carno regains his speed, health and damage, he'll be a menace

i wouldnt mind this as long as it comes with a serious agility nerf, but thats the only way i can think of carno with his regained speed, damage and health not being completely busted

and an agility nerf seriously impacts the ability to catch small game, granted if the small game actually remembers the a/d keys

and if the hitboxes dont go all funky

[dusky surge]

oh god its pesky all over again

[eternal oak]

The hell is that supposed to mean

[dusky surge]

carno hunting stego

[eternal oak]

Yeah?

It was fairly common to see

[dusky surge]

what was

[eternal oak]

Carnos hunting stegos

[dusky surge]

did they even exist at the same time

or are we talking about evrima

[eternal oak]

I’m talking about evrima

[dusky surge]

because that only happened back in U2 when carno was far stronger and stego was far weaker

carno really should not be hunting stegos at all tbh, i hate the idea of it

[eternal oak]

It happened up until like, very recently

[slim dragon]

Also when carno could bite stego's thagomizers and deal damage while staying out of attack range

[dusky surge]

honestly if there were carnos hunting stegos, that's wild lol, and i'm glad it stopped

but tbf stego sucked in the open for the longest time before powerswing

[eternal oak]

Last stego hunt I’ve heard of was last patch, before carno got shrunk to be… way smaller than it should but that’s besides the point

I think it was 3 carnos v 1 stego

[golden coral]

Not entirely surprised, with good timing + accel, you can bait stego and get bites off on the head, but normally the stego will hit you on the way in or out at some point, and tha'td be that

[dusky surge]

unsurprising given stego last patch was exceptionally easy to bait given the godawful cooldown

[eternal oak]

Might’ve been a bit before last patch actually

I Think it was When dibble was still 2 tons

[eternal oak]

I Think its kinda reasonable, simply because carnos speed allows it to really easily exploit stegos noticeable weakness, the head. A carno would have to be really careful about it though. But that’s the only reason a carno is theoretically capable of taking on stego in the isle

Personally I think carno should be avoiding creatures that do heavy bleed in particular

Like stegos

Or raptors I suppose, but with raptors the carno could get away with killing them just fine if it gets it over with quickly

[dusky surge]

I'd personally give carno good bleed res imho

I think it having poor bleed res is woefully antithetical to its design goals

It's a small game hunter that relies on running, and most small game creatures do disgusting amounts of bleed

Combine that with the fact that it runs a lot and how tf is it supposed to hunt anything if the first counterattack by your prey bleeds you like a stuffed pig

[analog mirage]

Ok. If a stego dies to 3 carnos biting it that’s simply a skill issue I don’t know what else to say.

[dusky surge]

Eh, it was possible if the stego was out in plains and before powerswing was really a thing

[analog mirage]

Pre powerswing sure. Not now

Or the ability to continue alt attacking after 0 stam

[dusky surge]

Thank God it has those things btw lol

[analog mirage]

But generally speaking if a larger animal like let’s say Allo or dibble is approached by 3 carnos I don’t think it should just ignore them. You should maybe worry about that cause you are outnumbered

[dusky surge]

Well, yea

[eternal oak]

If I had it my way carno would be like this

Pros:
fast, like, really fast
Decent stamina
Decent damage

Neither pro nor con:
pretty much THE mid tier size (depends what you consider mid tier, to me that’s 1-3 tons) so very roughly 2 tons, probably a bit smaller though

Cons:
below average bleed resistance
Slow swim speed
Really bad turning

[analog mirage]

I hate the term mid tier

Anyways carry on

[dusky surge]

not as bad as pseudo-mid or pseudo-apex

[analog mirage]

I don’t think Carno needs great stamina if it gets its speed back. It’s good enough as it is stam wise

[dusky surge]

Its stamina is really good atm, big fan of its current endurance

[analog mirage]

I just wish it was still 55kmph

[eternal oak]

It should be

[analog mirage]

Kinda dumb how it’s just slightly faster than dilo

[eternal oak]

How fast is dilo?

[analog mirage]

Iirc 47

[dusky surge]

47.5

[analog mirage]

Carno is 49

[dusky surge]

49.5

[analog mirage]

[eternal oak]

Carno should be the fastest carnivore in the game, straight up

[dusky surge]

And it is

[analog mirage]

It is….it just shouldn’t be this slow

[dusky surge]

It actually can go faster than old carno lol

[eternal oak]

It should be at least as fast as galli

[dusky surge]

It's the only carnivore that can reach speeds of almost 60km/hr

[mint star]

legacy herrera running at twice that

[analog mirage]

Ideally if it is bumped back to 55kmph the charge still stays at 60kmph

[dusky surge]

Then you'd have to change the math :(

[analog mirage]

That’s fine

[eternal oak]

Kinda have to change the math every time you edit stats…

[analog mirage]

Unless you get a migration zone math problem where the devs forget to add a zero

Because dondi talked about how patrols are supposed to spawn just enough food for you to get by with the new food values…..the issue is it only spawns one to two plants

We think it’s because they didn’t add a 0. So instead of every patrol zone you get 10 plants per person it became 1 plant per person

[tropic horizon]

Carno with its old speed and current charge speed would be so much fun

Like just constant speed demoning is something I’d play

[analog mirage]

I wish Carno was made 1.6T and could knock over 75% of its weight, while the other 25% would just get staggered. Then you simply don’t charge things bigger than you

Cerato and Teno stay at a stagger while everything like dilo, Pachy and Omni get knocked over

[eternal oak]

i wish carno was like update 3

[coarse blaze]

One of those cons can be entirely null if you just avoid water, your carno basically has no downsides except for bleed.

Swim speed isn't super important for most of our land creatures, most players aren't crossing rivers or lakes super often. Plus deinos existing alone make it so that most players avoid doing so.

[sleek sierra]

But as a predator carno doesn't always gets the luxury or avoiding water as it needs to go where the prey are. And if the prey are near water, it is then a factor in how the hunt may go, and provides the prey with a potential risk vs reward escape opportunity.

[eternal oak]

But it does mean that anything escaping the carno has a very useful escape route

[eternal oak]

Also I just realized I forgot “really bad turning” as a con

[hasty coyote]

Unless the carno is not nearby a river, which most of the open plains are, or if the prey swims just as poorly.

[eternal oak]

That is a factor, however, when you are on the plains you ARE at carnos mercy

[coarse blaze]

I don't think the vast majority of hunts ever involve water.

[eternal oak]

Not much will or should change that

[eternal oak]

You’d be surprised

[hasty coyote]

Except there are dinosaurs who are small and also live in the open plains a majority of the time.

[eternal oak]

Then they have to utilize carnos other weaknesses, ie: really bad turning

Carno should have the worst agility in the game, but the fastest run speed

[coarse blaze]

I again, don't see many fights ending up in the water unless it's tenos or ceras.

[hasty coyote]

Bad turning is one of those things that are hard to balance tbh. Too harsh and now carno can’t catch anything. Too lenient and now carno runs down everything.

Which is why I like that they gave carno less hp and damage, gives stuff like Omni and pachy a chance to fight back effectively without forcing them to be op just to deal with carno.

And gives smaller things at least some leeway to escape.

[coarse blaze]

I just think carnos bleed should be adjusted, that's all really and grapple - is it's own thing. I really enjoy new carno, I just don't enjoy that 2 raptors can instantly pin me.

[eternal oak]

Omni and pachy shouldn’t really be trying to fight carno

[coarse blaze]

I don't think carno should be hunting larger creatures, it's whole "I ram into something half my size" works just fine.

[hasty coyote]

Grapple just needs adjustment in general tbh, 2 omnis 1-shotting a cera is still insane to me.

[coarse blaze]

I killed a pachy with my carno before it's untimely death just fine, it did break my leg, and my body but tried to facetank and died.

[coarse blaze]

I was genuinely flabbergasted that my healthy, full stammed carno just got instantly pinned because I lost the RNG bucking roll.

[hasty coyote]

Omni is understandable that it shouldn’t try to 1v1 a carno. Pachy ain’t got another option til leg fracture atm.

[coarse blaze]

Pachy needs something

[hasty coyote]

We love rng being a deciding factor of a fight.

[coarse blaze]

No, no it's great for both people I'm sure.

That carno though did kill 4 of those raptors before bleeding out with genuine ease outside the pin because of the new ram.

I want renders of hypsi climbing already too, I wish to know how it climbs

[hasty coyote]

I understand that the reasoning behind it was likely to make bucking not predictable, so stuff couldn’t just insta kill things pouncing it the moment they fell off. However I’d rather it be predictable than rng.

[coarse blaze]

A lot of raptors I know did complain with being instantly killed after dismounting but I didn't personally experience it with omni or troodon.

I did however experience not being able to get raptors off of myself via bucking

[hasty coyote]

I have experienced it all with rng bucking. And I hate it for that reason. If there was a singular problem, it would be a much easier fix. Instead it’s every problem that can happen with the duration of pounce AND the issues with rng.

[coarse blaze]

It overall, paired with grapple just needs some adjustments honestly

As do the vast majority of things

[hasty coyote]

I was about to say most things need adjustment lol.
Cera should be in a much healthier spot after this patch at least.

[coarse blaze]

I've heard it's not much better but I haven't fought one with how empty the HT has been.

[hasty coyote]

I haven’t either tbh, but I know the math for bile and what I have heard corroborates it. It should take 2 charged bites to puke stuff like teno and carno now, dilo and below are still insta vomits from charged bite.

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

Jesus christ just make the entire animal worthless i guess

[keen plover]

😭 what even is that

[dusky surge]

islecord balancing

[hasty coyote]

"faster than cera" is what really got me to not take the rest of it seriously

[dusky surge]

dont use the needle, go straight to the sledgehammer is the name of the game here

[keen plover]

10 people saw that and were like "yeah, that seems good"

[dusky surge]

also "low stamdrain"

dibble honestly runs out of puff quite fast in a sprint, it spends most of its time trotting around

one of them was the legendary Mr. Carno woke Canni

[hasty coyote]

it only has low stam drain because it doesnt waste 15% of its stam per attacks...

[dusky surge]

also "low stam drain" when we're comparing it to cera?

lol

[keen plover]

"are faster than a cera"

When the 3t herbivore deals more damage than the 1300kg animal as well

Cera runs at 40.2km/h
Diablo runs at 36km/h

That's like saying a cera can run down a dryo

Hitbox has some issues yeah, but that's the only issue lol

[dusky surge]

i dont play it lol, haven't played it since its Horde Test

[keen plover]

Also it has a mediocre run time at best. Stego and deino are the only creatures that have a shorter run time.

[dusky surge]

ya, its runtime is quite poor

then they're hackers or something idk

in which case it's no longer the fault of dibble

[keen plover]

I mean if the cerato has no speed mutation and the diablo does, it still outruns it

37.8 diablo
vs
40.2 cera

If it's not a hacker, then you're clearly turning a lot instead of running in a straight line

[dusky surge]

were you 100% grown

then either they were hacking or something else was wrong because dibble is always slower than cera

the majority disagrees

nerfing its stam, damage and turn just makes it pathetic honestly

[keen plover]

It isn't a balance issue

Straight up isn't possible for a diablo player to either outstam, out trot or outspeed a cerato

If it's a legit player that is

[dusky surge]

herbivores dont defend themselves from carnivores less than half their weight? since when

if the ceras dont run away from the bigger threat, it's on them if they die. if you get out of their space, they'll leave you alone

[keen plover]

The devs don't want herbivores to only be passive. Also officials have no rules, so players can do whatever they want as long as it's not hacking

That I can agree on. In terms of roster, I can agree it was a mistake to add another "stego"

[tropic horizon]

I think they want it to be protoceratops instead of diablo!

[dusky surge]

i mean based i want protoceratops but not at the cost of dibble

[tropic horizon]

also man reading this stuff is like...

how does one miss the actual issue with diablo which is the fact that it stuns 6 ton animals. like remove that and youve made it mostly fine for its size. the damage nerf especially is the part that makes me cackle the most because without exploiting a literal glitch your damage was absolutely pathetic.

like people seem to forget that diablo's damage is on par with cera an animal that is nearly 3 times smaller than it...

[lunar mirage]

#balance-feedback message

I'm assuming you mean the sanctuaries for the baby dinos?

[vale brook]

the animal that is suppoed to excel at 1v1's against animals its size and smaller requires 2-3 carnivores to take it down? who woulda thunk it

[hasty coyote]

especially when most the current carnivores are not designed to hunt it, except omnis, which need a pack to take it down either way.

[vale brook]

dilos are also decent at it

troodons may also be able to do it, but i havent personally seen it

people assume "im the biggest carnivore in the game right now! that means im supposed to take out the biggest herbivore!" no, that is not how the game works right now.

[hasty coyote]

dilos struggle a bit but can def take one down in a group
troodons would require a lot of numbers or a lot of time purely because of how much hp diablo has.

[vale brook]

this is also true

herrera can solo a dibble fairly easily as well, so theres that

[hasty coyote]

erm, deino is the biggest and it can 1-shot stegos (I still hate this fact)

[heady zealot]

FG? No way

[vale brook]

bleed my friend, bleed

its pretty situational but it can be done decently easily

for instance, a solo dibble in highlands is at the mercy of any herreras there

especially at night and ESPECIALLY if its raining

[heady zealot]

Ok, highlands I can see, but other than that I feel that the Diablo will just run away from trees

[vale brook]

this is also true, its very dependent on enviorment

you can do it decently well if the MZ for dibble is at mudflats as well, using the diet trees to keep the bleed up

just an example of skill and planning being a big factor in these things

[heady zealot]

True

[sleek sierra]

Smaller dinos have to kill bigger prey over time. Part of being faster is keeping them from getting away. You shouldn't be able to attack straight on and kill them quickly, but you can prevent them from healing bleed or comfortably getting food/water to the point that it all kills them.

Death by a thousand cuts style.

[vale brook]

^ most herrera pounce one, see that the pounce didnt kill their target, and scurry away too scared to try again

they fail to reach peak herrera

[sleek sierra]

Which is why we see so many skill issue responses. Lol

[rustic fractal]

lunary do you enjoy life full of pain and suffering?

i do and ptera gameplay is even worse

[minor badger]

I've played Ptera and was killed with one shot by a boar. I'm not sure, if this was the developers plan.

[glossy elbow]

why does ptera need to regen stan while flying it can already glide across entire chunks of the map?

[rustic fractal]

because sometimes you are just too low

[glossy elbow]

so then go down and rest for a minute or if you have enough stam grab onto a tree

[stark knoll]

Cling to a tree or land on a branch

Not once have I ever felt like I needed to regen stam in the air

[rustic fractal]

if only regaining stam didnt take ages

[dreamy wadi]

because flying is the only thing it does...

[golden coral]

@dreamy wadi What exactly should stego not oneshot then? We've seen a short clip of a rex pinning a diablo, I imagine it would oneshot that, or at least come very close, and that's sort of how stego is too (except of course diablo can facetank a stego to an absurd degree, but aside from that)

[slim dragon]

(friendly reminder that if there were tactical missiles in the game diablo could probably facetank one with its crazy damage reduction)

[dreamy wadi]

dude don`t talk about things that are not ingame, rex will be in game maybe in the next 5 years or so at the current progress!

Diablo needs rework too, way too much dmg and health and bleed and also way too flexibility, moves like is skating

[glossy elbow]

currently yes? is it a bad thing to allow it to be more then just fly?

[dreamy wadi]

no I wish they made it more involved with the game, but all it does is catch fish and fly, what else can u do with it?

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter, point still stands a reference for power

[glossy elbow]

if the devs let it fly everywhere whenever it wants it becomes a glorified spectator cam which i think ptera deserves better

[golden coral]

Since you dislike that stego oneshot things, I'm simply asking what would be a reasonable damage level then

Also the charged swing has been a thing for a few patches now, and was kind of needed, the jab wasn't/isn't the best attack around

[dreamy wadi]

before it was one shot too, but the speed now is absurd, who will ever risk the charge attack? I used to hunt stegos alone as a cera and it was fun, if u mess up u died and that was okay, now ask the devs to show u statistics and I bet hardly anybody fights them.
Except for dibles, another anomaly that was errected into the game.

[golden coral]

Well, I don't think cera should be hunting stegos solo, so... That kind of points to stego being terrible if you regularily did that

[glossy elbow]

yeah cera shouldn't punch up that much

[golden coral]

And to be honest, there's few to no critters in game that should reliably hunt stego, much less 1v1

Hence my reference to rex, stego is similar, so if you wouldn't think "I'd hunt a rex", you probably shouldn't be hunting stego either

But then, hunting rex as cera might be doable for all I know

[dreamy wadi]

Lol it`s obvious to me u guys have barely played this game, cerato kills stegos by starvation or dehydration not with hits. you wait him out, not let him drink or eat after he puked that was the whole fun.....but it is clear to me u guys have no exp with this

[golden coral]

And the fact they can do that, is still silly

And they did deliberately change the bile so it'd be harder to puke larger things

[dreamy wadi]

so yes i think a good cera should kill a stego alone, in turn the stego should be good enough to know how to defend

[golden coral]

Though not sure how well that goes, though it's supposedly been properly nerfed now

[glossy elbow]

wat

[golden coral]

Right, so the tiny tier scavenger should hunt a close to apex level critter

Even 4 ceras should just not be a match for a stego, anymore than they'd be a match for a trike or rex really, or well, deino

[dreamy wadi]

If it is on the bloody menu yes!!!!!

That`s the point right?

[glossy elbow]

wdym?

[golden coral]

Growth stages

Somehow people always think being on diet means "I can solo this thing at full growth", that is not the case

[glossy elbow]

yup

[golden coral]

You can hunt substegos in cerato groups, that'd be fine, same with hunting a subrex or subtrike, mobbing them in a group would work while they're still at maybe midtier size or similar

But for hunting a fully grown one, not so much

[dreamy wadi]

Dude stop pretending u are some sort of smart pants, yes if it is on the menu u should be able to hunt him, with the risk of dying but still

[glossy elbow]

yeah thats when its at the top of its strength for growing to full very few things should hunt or kill it

[glossy elbow]

no?

[golden coral]

What are you on about? And you can, but not all growth stages and not solo

Omni eats stegos, does not mean a solo omni hunts a fully grown one

So no, diet simply says you're meant to go eat this thing, it does not say if you're meant to hunt juvies, subs, or adults, or if you're meant to go at it solo or in a massive group

You'll have to make that judgement yourself based on your playable and how it works and so on

[dreamy wadi]

yes a good omni should bleed out a stego, make the game about the skill is a game !!!!!

u all want it to be strong cause u think these creatures were strong, well rex was smaller and weaker than giga, and many other were stronger

at the end of the day this is a game not a dino simulator, it needs to be fun to play.

[golden coral]

You can't possibly be serious? You think a solo omni should have any form of reasonable chance vs a grown stego? When it shouldn't really be soloing a teno even.

[golden coral]

What now?...

Not that it matters, since game, as you said, hence rex will be the apex, but so will giga, and a few others. Though rex will probably end up being the 1v1 master, together with trike

[glossy elbow]

its not a pvp game where everything is even with each other. its a survival game there are dinos that will be just way stronger than others

[dreamy wadi]

yes, if he`s patient enough, has good skill and all that why not?
what do u say>? everyone to play just the strongest and the best creatures? is that what u want?

[golden coral]

And yeah, survival, so while skill should matter, there's absolutely a limit to what you can do

[golden coral]

I mean, sure, if the stego is afk or otherwise is playing with it's feet or something. But if the stego is even active and have the most basic keybinds down, then no

[dreamy wadi]

then everyone will want to be the rex, stego and croc, why would u even play the smaller ones?

[golden coral]

Easier to survive as, would be one reason

Less likely to get shot by the humans as well

[heady zealot]

Not necessarily. I play Troodon and Omni all the time even though as solo Dino’s they suck

A pack of Omnis or Troodons should be able to take down a Cera for example, but a lone Omni or 2-3 Troodons should almost always die to Cera

[neon willow]

Assuming they hang around to fight. A lone Omni should be able to survive a cera encounter by choosing not to engage (ie run away)

[heady zealot]

Yeah for sure, same with Troodon

But one trying to kill the other an Omni shouldn’t solo a Cera or Carno

However in a pack an Omni pack should be able to wipe the floor with a Cera

[hasty coyote]

I love 24,000 effective hp

[vale brook]

the animal meant to eat pretty everything because it excels at scavenging and taking bodies (while notably meant to be a subpar hunter) has most animals on its diet? who would have thunk it

[leaden remnant]

@lilac leaf you're faster just run away

if you let gallis not be pinned we'd have murder groups absolutely obliterating all raptors on earth

make gallis able to knock raptors down and the "issue" that really doesnt exist is solved

[heady zealot]

They said a tiny bit faster, but to my knowledge top speed of raptor is like 46-48 and Gali is like 55 or something like that.

[leaden remnant]

yus

raptor: 46.8 galli: 55 iirc

[heady zealot]

Ok, yeah that’s quite a bit different the Raptor would need to probably ambush from a bush to be able to get one before the Gali runs away

[cosmic pelican]

Galli on all diets is 55.4

[leaden remnant]

yea thats the thing

a raptor needs to get a good ambush which means it's on the galli for being pinned

[cosmic pelican]

But a galli on bad diets is the same speed as an omni

[leaden remnant]

• galli has 4 minutes run time, raptor has barely over 2

[heady zealot]

If they 1 call how big of a speed buff is it?

[cosmic pelican]

Goes from 55.4 to 69.2 iirc

With speed mutations you can go over 70km/h

But you need to have perfect diet for that, otherwise youre much much slower

[leaden remnant]

... and ppl complain about being pinned

[heady zealot]

Holy crap that’s insane. I know you can’t do it solo but that’s crazy fast lol

[cosmic pelican]

I get it why though, losing an almost 2 hour grow to something that takes less time to grow than it feels cheesy

[leaden remnant]

i also get it, but just make the growth time less

ez fix without obliterating balance

[lilac leaf]

Galli is faster on perfectly flat straight terrain on paper but the second you hit the tiniest pebble that The Isle decides you cannot in fact run over whatsoever and in fact have to full stop and turn to the side, you're caught. Utah gets to speed immediately. Galli takes a handful of seconds from standstill to speed. All it takes is hitting 1 obstacle to lose all speed. Galli cannot really do anything to counter a utah once he's stopped unless its the stupidest utah player in the world because the pounce is a 1 shot kill and Galli on the other hand has to work a lot harder to land hits. Its a problem when its legit easier to kill a cerato or dilo as a galli than a freaking utah lol

That or I'm constantly struggling with speed hack utahs, I get caught all the time running from them, that I was aware of and not ambushed by, even when I DONT hit an obstacle :/ I'd be more likely to believe the stats may not be exactly correct on the menus or they are far closer than you think they are. And this was even before mutations where speed is affected more heavily than it used to.

That max speed of being like 20 points faster than utah btw is very likely only in a herd with stacking boosts where the risk of pouncing isnt as bad cause friends can kick the utah off ( galli herds aren't common on any server i've ever played ), the boost of 1 solo galli is quite a lot smaller

And regardless what you think about galli being easier to kill than a dryo or hypsi because the hitbox is bigger, a full kick to the face of a midair utah should still stop its pounce

Also didn't say they shouldn't be pinned at all. I said they shouldn't be pinned by ONE raptor, and currently I don't even think that raptor has to be 100% growth? Its MUCH more common to find huge swarms of raptors than it is gallis, I promise this wouldn't be as overpowered as you seem to think lol 2 raptor pin, sure, 1 raptor right click to win? Nah

[heady zealot]

Doesn’t the problem seem to be more terrain related then? Just in general I think it’s kinda dumb how the second you enter the jungle you will step on a rock you can’t even see and get caught, I’ve died several times this way

[bright oasis]

Dondi said they're removing all the small rocks in the jungle, and only leaving the bigger ones players can jump on.

[heady zealot]

That will actually be such a great improvement

[lilac leaf]

praise the lord lol

[heady zealot]

I also think smaller Dino’s should more easily slip between trees to get away from bigger threats

[lilac leaf]

yeah hit boxes for a lot of foliage needs a bit of an adjustment and hell, things like the dome where the hitbox extends a few feet from the actual structure too

[heady zealot]

Yup, I’d rather them fix stuff like that before any major nerfs/ buffs

[leaden remnant]

you right, i said it wrong

also you cant say raptor is rmb to win when everytihng is rmb/lmb to win

deino, teno, stego, herrera, pachy and more are all rmb to win

what you said in teh big paragraph is only a map issue/galli issue not raptor issue

so waht needs to be changed is galli or the map not its interaction with raptors

which should be changed so that gallis can knock em down but you get waht i mean

[rich wadi]

@compact coral That's why I switched to Petits community server: No cheaters, No mixpackers and No Gastro and the map feels alive with 200 slots

[compact coral]

Are there any rules ? What are the Settings? Is there Server always populated ? Like 24/7?

[rich wadi]

Its a low rule server, like: No mixpacking, respecting group limit imposed by the game, Deino can't share food with other species

Other than that, its a free for all server, you can kill as many people as you like, no cringe body down rule

There is a 20% growth boost, but you hardly notice it, just think of it as 120% growth boost when you have perfect diet

It also makes the boring growing time a little bit less annoying

I've only played it yesterday and it was 167/200 at 3 PM so not even peak time

And in the morning i've seen it at 47/200

The community also feels much more compact since there is only 1 server and not 20 different people play on

[compact coral]

Can u Send me Server Name ? Would appreciate that.
Sounds good so far

[rich wadi]

Sent you a DM

[heady zealot]

Is the Islander server the one with that rule?

[fast breach]

No the opposite, body down rules on Islander

[heady zealot]

I enjoy some rules but at the same time some of them are extreme

[heady zealot]

Huh? I thought petit pieds had pretty lax rules?

[fast breach]

I meant that Islander had the body down rules

[heady zealot]

Yeah, ok. What does that even mean? I didn’t bother to read through all their rules

[fast breach]

Once someone is killed, fighting must stop

[heady zealot]

In what context?

[fallen vale]

Every evening EU time it's full at 220+ slots

And more than playable at East coast evening with like still 120-200 players depending on the days

[rich wadi]

yes it is islander

[rich wadi]

lets say you hunt something but someone dies doing the hunt, then all fighting must stop.

[heady zealot]

Pack hunting?

[rich wadi]

you can also not be hunted if you are claiming a body, but other carnivors can contest the body, so you csn either choose to give the body or fight for the body

on those server herbivors are not allowed to hunt, but has to wait to be hunted

[rich wadi]

pack or solo hunting

[heady zealot]

So how does a pack of Omnis even take anything down if one of them is hit they’re basically dead

[rich wadi]

well for omnis packs 2 raptors have to die before the fighting has to stop. but this in my opinion is still bad cause it forces you to get the cannibalism mutation

[heady zealot]

Wow, I guess I’ll never play Troodon on that server again lol, probably not Raptor either

[rich wadi]

When I switched to community servers it was a nobrainer to choose Petits instead of Islander

Especially when my fav dinos to play are omni, dilo and troodon

[heady zealot]

I guess I’ll save islander soley for my Hererra

[fallen vale]

A man of culture

🍷

[rich wadi]

Islander: 👶🏼 🍼
Petits: 💪🏼 😎

[vale brook]

It takes 4+ deaths for troodons to be considered a body down

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[obtuse ocean]

Honestly herrera is the worste when its body down rule, since u cant attack when they eating : P

[heady zealot]

wtf. Yeah I doubt I’m playing on that server again lol, or I will just not abide by that rule 😂

[true oasis]

Did they fix dillo clones teleporting to u and automatically dealing damage? As well as not being able to kill clones before they hurt u

[lunar mirage]

Idk, seems like they haven't fixed the glitch where if you're near water, the clones can't reach you...so probably not?

[true oasis]

My latest experience they tp to u and deal immediate damage if you’re near/on water or around cliffs mountains. Almost like they’re hardcoded to deal damage, so getting poisoned is almost a death sentence

[lunar mirage]

3 of my friends and I poisoned a cerato on NA5 and it camped under the bridge and wasn't fighting anything besides us and i know that they were working because we had attempted to take on a dibble earlier...dibble phoned in 5 friends and 2 of us were doing hallucinations and it was attacking...but idk if it was able to fend them off.
The cerato didn't seem affected at all by 3 of us calling in hallucinations...

[true oasis]

Weird, ig it just needs fixing

[steep echo]

The troodon venom fog does scream "We didn't know how to give troodon its own identity"

[heady zealot]

Why not make the venom effect stamina?

[honest wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-scott-the-office-steve-carell-oh-my-god-its-happening-gif-17270692

Omg its happening...salt licks are useful now.

The game is slowly becoming what its potential can be but...there is still that looming problem...

[fast breach]

@meager hazel Can’t you still knock them off on trees, cliffs, water, etc.?

[hollow topaz]

@tall spear there are still veins and arteries in the tail. If you’re low enough on health to die from a tail hit since you already take reduced damage there, you were probably in a bad spot to begin with.
Plus, if you made teno unable to die from tail damage, then all of the sudden it can start sticking its tail into places it doesn’t belong and knocking things over with no repercussions.

[lilac leaf]

There's a condition called happy tail in dogs where even REAL animals can die by bleeding out from damage to the tail. That takes a lot of neglect to happen but its not impossible. that aside it could make some creatures ( like teno ) very overpowered if you couldn't die from tail hits, considering a teno can easily prevent hits to anywhere else if they play it right

[tall quiver]

Agreed. Though things like dibble knocking you flat from grazing the tip of your tail is absurd.

[tall spear]

@tall quiver I think diablos hitbox is a few feet Infront of his horns. So, he can knock you down early from the sides but if he knocks you down from a tail hit, it's most likely desync.

[tall quiver]

Ye, most likely. Though it is annoying when 'desync' happens every single fight ever

[meager hazel]

knock what?

[lilac leaf]

agreeing with buffing dryo's dodge, i never use it as a dryo because it feels like its just a way to waste your own stamina and achieve nothing in the process. its distance should be doubled orrrr it take like, significantly reduced damage during the dodge, or SOMEthing to make it a worthwhile ability to have

[dusky surge]

it doesnt cost any stamina

[lilac leaf]

Ahh it used to cost quite a bit I haven't used it recently as a result

[fast breach]

The omnis

[cedar beacon]

@glass crag They could make cera slower when its using the charge bite, like Spar mode does to Diablo. So it wouldn't use it for fighting but more for defending it self or stealing a corpses.

[glass crag]

That could work too. 👍

[lilac leaf]

ooh i like that a lot!

[meager hazel]

as what? dibble, pachy?

[fast breach]

Literally anything lol, hasn’t any animal pounced on by Omni been able to knock it off via tree, cliff, or shake it off in water, etc.?

[meager hazel]

yes

[left field]

The elite fish should not be able to outswim a gator thats minimum 50% grown. This is just annoying to chase down in a open river where there is no chace to corner them.

[heady zealot]

@steps I think the 2 second grace period should be applied to troodon, and then Omnis shouldn’t be RNG based.

[royal valve]

@meager hazel i agree with the omni and troodon bite speed being slow and has needed a buff for ages but the herra nerf isnt something you should add to the suggestion is supposed to be a fast agile stealth hunter which is fragile, everytime it jumps risks its life and its killed so easily if you see it coming

[odd pebble]

My issue is not necessarily with the 2 sec grace period ( even though i think its not a good idea), but with the fact that there is a 2 sec grace period AFTER EVERY TIME you press E

[dusky surge]

@charred spade #balance-feedback message

Stego has zero bleed resist. It is one of the least resistant animals to bleed in the game. It just has a lot of blood due to its size

[analog hemlock]

I agree, herrara has to make a perfect jump if a player is not smart enough to look up into trees that is there fault, it does not need a nerf

[royal valve]

yea herra is in a good place atm

though omni and troodon def need a faster bite speed

[analog hemlock]

i love the new mutation changes also feels good for herrara

[royal valve]

havent been able to play it yet

[analog hemlock]

jumping feels alot better

with the lower stam cost

[royal valve]

ive been doing my finals so i haven't been playing, how big of a stam cost was the reduction?

[analog hemlock]

50% ik believe

[royal valve]

holy hell

herra might auctually be able to stalk its prey instead of losing the creature when it moves a little bit out of the area

[analog hemlock]

and the changed enlarged miniscus fall dmg from 15% to use stamina instead

[royal valve]

interesting, hows that feel?

[analog hemlock]

well depends were you hunt at i guess

nvr really needed it unless i was in area with realy large trees

but i rather use some stam then risk my already low hp

i mainly sit westrail, mud flaps, or sp so dont need it. i like taking reinforced tendons, saltwater mutation, and congenial hypoglasia

or cannible if i get the chance to eat as a baby instead of congenial

[charred spade]

This doesn't make any sense, in fact Carno is the worst animal with bleeding, but man Omni attacked me only once with pounce and that condemned me, regardless of whether I would win or not, whether i had been sitting or not i would have died.

Not even Carno has such bad bleeding in the juvenile phase

[dusky surge]

carno is the only animal with a specific bleed vulnerability

and even then, its bleed resistance stat is the exact same as stego

[earnest salmon]

#balance-feedback message
The issue with this kind of idea is that it would dramatically impact MZs if there are multiple bodies, creating a zone of denial for herbies
it would also discourage competition among herbies which is already near non-existent.

[heady zealot]

Yeah that’s an issue mainly for Omni and not necessarily Troodon since most of the time you pounce on and then pounce off a second later.

[hasty coyote]

A carno of the same size would have died even sooner since they have increased bleed multipliers. What you were dealing with is Omni being op in its size tier because it deals a MASSIVE amount of bleed with pounce and you being small and thus having a low blood pool.

[onyx lichen]

@proud agate I think the reason for the 4th mutation slot being locked is because they were saving it for Elders

[uneven mango]

#balance-feedback message @onyx lichen having the charged bite slow cera down wouldn’t allow it to properly defend itself. it’s very reliant on movements

[onyx lichen]

That's what Bile and the fast bite speed is for, charge bite is mostly to claim a body but everyone just uses it like a hunting tool

[uneven mango]

bile and fast bite speed won’t help against certain matchups, mainly against teno

and no charged bite isn’t really used exclusively for corpses

[onyx lichen]

I fought Tenos with just the bite and it was still helpful

[uneven mango]

Have you considered the possibility of the tenos you fought being bad at the game?

[onyx lichen]

Have you ever fought Tenos in water?

[uneven mango]

I have? I’m talking about the matchup in general

not in specific areas

[onyx lichen]

Cera only takes like 3-4 bites to vomit a Teno though

[uneven mango]

and teno takes 3 combos to kill a cera

With the nerf your suggesting cera would become a walking burger

[onyx lichen]

Cera's Matchups are mostly going to be Carnivores since it is a Scavenger

[uneven mango]

that’s true but you can’t control what people will do with certain dinos. A teno can decide to chase you down for no reason

[onyx lichen]

Yeah, but Cera can make it vomit to prevent it from chasing it more

[uneven mango]

the thing is that tenos got faster dps and can kill you before you can make them vomit. There are also other issues with this nerf your suggesting, having the charged bite slowing it down will make it harder to bully something off your corpse, mainly Allo

[onyx lichen]

Besides, Cera needs some bad matchups, rn it just destroys everything

[uneven mango]

it does have bad matchups, omni, and stego. Teno dosent need to be stronger and faster

[onyx lichen]

Teno was build for combat, Cera was made for scavenging and body bullying

[uneven mango]

So is cera, it’s always been described as a defensive brawler

scavanger≠weak

[onyx lichen]

How is it defensive rn?

[uneven mango]

against teno it is

Yea it does need a nerf to make it less offensive but this is not the way to go about it

[onyx lichen]

My change made it less offensive but traded it in for more defensive capabilities

[uneven mango]

Not really, your change made it a walking happy meal without a corpse

[onyx lichen]

All I did was change the charge bite which should be a defensive Tool

And swimming alts, those needed to use less stamina

[uneven mango]

All you did was forcing it into this stationary defensive style when its extremely reliant on movements to dodge

[onyx lichen]

Cera was made to scavenge and steal bodies from things its size or slightly bigger, Cera needs to have some flaws because rn its just the least flawed playable

Does it even have flaws?

[uneven mango]

Yea but with this change it won’t be able to properly defend itself without a corpse

[onyx lichen]

Bile

[uneven mango]

It does, slow movement speed, fast hunger drain, is useless untill fg etc

[uneven mango]

You won’t be able to apply bile without trading it, slowing down causes that and cera is a bit squishy for its size

[onyx lichen]

Cera shouldn't rely on Charge Bite and Charge Bite desperately needs a nerf

Why should I use a basic bite when I could use the charge bite which does more damage, applies more bile at the cost of being loud?

[uneven mango]

basic bite is also useful, it has a faster dps and isn’t loud like you said

[uneven mango]

It does actually, most of its matchups would get heavily affected with out it. vs omni, teno and carno

[brittle zephyr]

@worthy steeple Wdym make Dilo faster than a Carno??

[worthy steeple]

carnos regular speed is 49.5
dilos speed with the mutation is 49.8

[brittle zephyr]

Oh that's absolutely broken what

I misread the suggestion then, thought you wanted to make Dilo's faster than Carno

[worthy steeple]

yeah lol, it’s even more broken in cerato vs pachy fight, because pachy literally cant even run away from cerato or outstam it

[worthy steeple]

xD it’s okay

[hasty coyote]

Pachy does outstam it iirc. Cera has like 2.5 minutes of stam while pachy has nearly 4. Still 2.5 minutes of a cera biting your tail tip you die tho.

[brittle zephyr]

Even zig-zagging to dodge ain't gonna help here lol

[hasty coyote]

Nope, it’s just death

[worthy steeple]

sad times

[dusky surge]

it has positive matchups against both. it has bleed resist and damage resist near corpses, allowing it to easily ignore omni's attacks, as well as a fast alt-bite and turnrate to punish approaches, and the ability to make them vomit quickly

as for stego, it has vomit, allowing it to open up the stego to free attacks, high agility allowing it to evade stego and then punish it, and the ability to just easily leave stego if it decides it isnt worth it

[worthy steeple]

so basically.. it’s good at everything? xD

[dusky surge]

yep lol

[worthy steeple]

😭😭

[dusky surge]

wanna know why everyone's playing it?

case and point, it's good at everything

it has almost no real weakness

[worthy steeple]

i’ve been crying about cera being op for at least few months at this point, they keep buffing it and nerfing everything else lol

[dusky surge]

it actually did get nerfed, but funnily enough, it barely dented it, because bacteria is only an addition to why cera is so strong. Cerato actually has insanely well-rounded base stats that far exceed the average playable, it can win fights entirely without bacteria

[worthy steeple]

idk who’s in charge of making balance changes in evrima, but the game is in funny state right now, most playable dinos are balancing between being op and completely useless

[worthy steeple]

yeah lol, actually agree with you

#general-feedback message

[dusky surge]

cerato has always been like this though, it's only becoming more apparent now because it used to have 1800kg carno as its bane. 1800kg carno was godawful at everything most of the time, but when it came to culling ceras, it thrived

once the 1800kg carno was reworked, it left cerato without its one true threat, and now its entirely dominant power is finally there for all to see

[worthy steeple]

it’s almost like cerato is devs favorite dino and they refuse to nerf it

[dusky surge]

wouldn't go that far

[worthy steeple]

ahh can’t argue with facts, there’s nothing really in the game that can kill a cerato, even dibbles are too slow to actually do anything

[worthy steeple]

i mean, it’s been like few months since they changed the bile? and they still refuse to do anything about it, i literally can’t see a reason why😭

[sleek sierra]

Cera is all fun and games until it ends up on the Rex diet list and carno doesn't. 😉

[dusky surge]

i dont think that matters lol

cerato being "balanced" around rex eventually existing and kicking its ass isn't really balance lol

[sleek sierra]

I leave such determinations to those of you who know more about than me, and I agree, but it is going to be sweet when Rex comes and we see all the feedback about how hard cerato life is now. Lol

[worthy steeple]

adding op dino won’t fix another one sadly

[dusky surge]

its also not how balance works (or should work)

cerato should be perfectly capable of surviving rex

[glass crag]

I like the idea or Cera being this op bully with a horrific bite.
They just need to reduce stamina/speed or both to make it a less efficient hunter.
It will still be able to defend itself just using its bite and bleed resistance.
When other apex’s or larger creatures are introduced it can be reviewed then.

[eager saddle]

I think it’s too much of a initiator compared to being a scavenger with too much punishment.

[leaden remnant]

@dawn heath theres counterplay btw

fight back adn dont get pinned

i know it sounds stupid but you just gotta dodge the raptors, i know this sounds even more stupid but it seriously isn't difficult

unless what you mean is certain things fighting back by default in the animation when being pinned

[fast breach]

Lol it would be funny if they added an actual fight back for the pin- you know like those old games where it would make you button mash to live
(Not a serious suggestion, just a funny thought) idk if you know the type of games I’m referencing

[leaden remnant]

yus

[indigo rain]

Ngl, as a utah player, unless something is literally less than half your weight, pinning doesnt make sense unless the target has low stamina. Utah can punch above its weight but fights are more drawn out and endurance focused on larger targets. The goal of a good ambush is to stack a lot of bleed and then back off to wait while the prey panics and wears itself out so you can pin and finish it. I feel like that would be more balanced and act as a signal to the herd/pack to also say "hey abandon this guy hes a dead man walking" if somebody gets pinned because thats your chance to escape

[fast breach]

I mean my experience playing Omni it’s typically not worth to pin much 😭 if you manage to pin a hefty juvi it takes a bunch of stamina I’d rather not lose tbh

Just my thoughts though

[eager saddle]

Agreed. It’s only really good with a group vs group or 1v1. Its not like you can pin something when it has a friend, you NEED to be even or outnumbering it

[leaden remnant]

it makes sense that you can pin things your size

if youve done any sort of martial arts or anything you'd know that you can pin things bigger than you

[fast breach]

Yeah, I think omni pin is rather okay right now- I mean I don’t play it much anymore but often go against it and it’s in a middle spot I’d say

[hasty coyote]

<@&933486433342222376>

[hasty coyote]

(This is about pin with a single Omni, not grapple with multiple)
I think the current pin makes Omni just unfun for both it and the target. Either Omni has the damage and stam to just 1-shot the target (which they often do atm) or they don’t. If they do, then the Omni just gets a free win button and the target just simply can’t go anywhere near an Omni or just instantly die. If the Omni doesn’t have enough to 1-shot the target, then pin is pretty much useless and omni has to win without its main ability. This basically ruins all nuisance and makes Omni have to be op or weak with no in between against anything smaller than itself. This is pretty much the same issue it has had with pounce being stam based and why it was changed (though the fact it’s rng based now is just as awful).

Personally I’d make a system where the target can break out of pin at the cost of stamina after some time. So the Omni still deals HEAVY damage with a pin, but it isn’t a 1-shot and both stay relatively even on stam so it’s still worthwhile. The breakout time can be tuned for diff animals. Like a dryo can break out faster than a Gali, so dryo has a chance to escape and Gali is still heavily injured. However, something like a baby stego or troodon may not be given a chance to escape.

[heady zealot]

@iron meteor instead of fog just make their hearing worse, or have the venom slightly effect stamina.

[iron meteor]

I would prefer the stamina being slightly worse

Over affecting their hearing

[heady zealot]

I agree. Right now an animal can just run away from Troodon if they’re attacked.

[leaden remnant]

get out of jail free card after you make a grave mistake

sounds fair to me

it ain't a 1 shot, just dodge the raptor

it's not complicated

if you get pinned you get pinned it's the same with herrera jump we shouldn't have a way to press a key and dodge the herrera jump/deino lunge

you make a mistake you die, and in this scenario you can see raptors coming from kilometers away, and if you don't, you can still hear them coming

it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say "yknow what, even tho you failed to see the raptor, even tho you failed to hear the raptor and even tho you failed to dodge the raptor, you can still nullify all the raptor's efforts"

a perfect ambush can only be possible when the prey is completely unaware of what's going on, so it's the prey's fault for letting it happen

and it being unfun for the one dying doesn't mean it should be changed, lots of things are unfun and shouldn't be changed

vomiting is unfun but it doesn't mean bile and rotten corpses should be removed, it means you avoid the ceras and don't eat rotten corpses

if everything in this game had to be fun we wouldn't have a game

[dusky surge]

smaller creatures are faster than cera
not all smaller creatures are faster than omni

cerato's vomit isn't confirmed instant death
omni's pin is if it has enough stamina

you can move while vomiting
you cannot move while being pinned

vomiting doesn't work on tailtip hits
pin inexplicably works as long as it grazes you

[leaden remnant]

not talking about only smaller things
all smaller things have a reliable way to get away/is being developed so just wait

cera vomit isn't confirmed insta death for big things (animation lock means certain death for small things)
raptor's pin isn't confirmed insta death unless it has enough stamina

you can barely move while vomiting and you cant do anything (animation locked) so the cera gets free damage
you cant move while being pinned

vomiting doesn't work on tailtip hits (well sometimes it does but lag)
pin inexplicably works as long as it grazes you (please fix the hitbox and make raptors have to be directly on you)

[versed kernel]

Is anyone else finding catching fish as a baby croc next to impossible or am I missing something?

Nevermind I literally just caugth one lol

[keen plover]

#balance-feedback message

Why was that downvoted

[worthy steeple]

no idea lol, that’s so weird

[hasty coyote]

From what you have been saying here you seem to have a misunderstanding of 2 things
1: you misunderstood my suggestion. What I was proposing is not a get out of jail free. The idea is that the time to break out would be balanced around the target bleeding out if it did not sit soon. So the target doesn’t get out Scott free, it gets a chance to hide and hope it isn’t found. With the fact it’s bleeding and can only run a short distance, it would not be very difficult for the Omni to track and find where the target is hiding, then just kill it. So getting hit is a MASSIVE punishment still and almost a death sentence, but it isn’t guaranteed.

2: you are comparing pin to abilities that aren’t comparable. Herrera and deino ONLY have the option of 1-shotting their targets because of how frail/slow they are. If the target survives the first attack they lose the hunt. That is not the case with Omni. Omni can miss 3 pounces and still just run down smaller targets and just bite them to death. Only thing that may be the case with is Gali, but that should be a difficult hunt due to the nature of Gali and the fact you are both practically the same size. Not even cera can 1-shot a Gali unless it lands a perfect headshot, Omni just needs a single polygon to overlap. Speaking of cera, you can’t compare ceras charged bite to pin. Charged bite is loud, has a start up, is on a slower and less agile dino, is on a much larger dino, and deals much less damage comparative to weight. Cera can only 1-shot things 1/3rd of its weight, Omni can 1-shot something it’s same weight.

You are essentially proving my point that pin is op by saying charged bite and pin have the same payoff meanwhile pin is on a smaller, more agile, and faster dino, and that pin has the same payoff as an exclusively 1 chance ambush hunter’s main ability on a Dino that can reliably catch up to its prey in a chase.

[heady zealot]

I don’t think Cera can be fairly compared to Omni, Cera is 5x easier to play

[hasty coyote]

its also 3x its size and has a completely different playstyle.

[heady zealot]

Right, which is why I don’t think it should be compared

[leaden remnant]

imma be honest you're not wrong i can't compare both things but im in no way proving your point

only by using your senses you can completely nullify it, it also requires a ton of variables to be able to even use it

it is one of the if not the easiest ability to counter

for example stand on a slope and literally just tap d for example, watch as the raptor dies to fall damage

i find most of the complaints about it beyond stupid because of what i explained before

if you committed the following mistakes:

• failed to see the raptor coming
• failed to hear the raptor coming
• failed to prevent a raptor attack by taking the necessary precautions (not standing in the open where you're visible for no reason, etcetera)
• failed to dodge the raptor/run away from the raptor

you absolutely deserve to die for it even if it's the most boring and annoying way to die

also, since most small things already have efficient ways/will have efficient ways to without issues and without fail avoid a raptor, giving them a get out of jail free card will just let em run for 5 seconds and then get to a place where they can't be killed and won't die to the injuries

the people who i see complaining about being pinned are the same ones 3 calling raptors on the ground as juvie carnos

if you're small then maybe you shouldn't make your presence known by any means, that's why afk growing is such a successful way of growing

the only reason a raptor can pin you down is because you commit several serious mistakes that let him do it, so just... don't make those mistakes, it's pretty stupid to nerf something that doesn't need it just because certain people lack the most basic and essential survival capabilities

the last time i got pinned was when random spawns released because i went for a teno body when raptors were nearby and i could hear them, so when i say it's not difficult to avoid it i really mean it

[steep gazelle]

It would be a great idea if the stun after using headbutt was removed from pachy or its stun on ceratos and cernos was brought back, as a means of balancing how vulnerable he is after using it.

Unlike Maiasaur, which has a lot of health but little damage, Pachy should have a lot of damage but little health.

What I said is just a suggestion, but something that Pachy really needs is a speed buff. To be 1km/h faster than a Cerato? Xd

43.5km is a good speed, not as fast as an omni or dillo but not as slow as a cerato which weighs almost 3x its weight

[leaden remnant]

pachy does a ton of damage already

• fractures

does about 200 on a tap ram to the head

[distant torrent]

fully agree with you. I’d love a system like this

[hasty coyote]

I'm still genuinely lost on how you get such an insane number

[leaden remnant]

by doing tests

the more charged it is the more damage it deals

[dusky surge]

not how it works

charged ram vs uncharged ram are fixed amounts

[worthy steeple]

perfect speed for pachy i might say

[heady zealot]

@tall bronze I haven’t entirely memorized what each mutation does by name only, but what are your thoughts about the current enlarged meniscus?

[tall bronze]

I think it's fine for the most part honestly and pretty unique (I find this version much more interesting than literally just "fall farther")
Though I do agree it might be a little too sensitive AKA even the slightest fall takes a ton of stamina away. If that were more fine tuned, I think it'd be perfect 🙂

[heady zealot]

As it stands Hererra will just land and lose ALL stamina from a jump that wouldn’t have even broken his bones. And if a raptor/ troodon takes it or any other carnivore so they don’t die as often from falls then they end up losing all stamina and are an easy meal if they were in a fight

[heady zealot]

Yeah I was under the impression it would take a little bit of stamina away depending on how far the fall was, but now it’s either you land fine or you were half a foot higher and now you land with no stamina and essentially die unless it was just an accident

@lean wren do you mean no reason to play solo Raptor? Could you go more in depth with your reasoning I don’t quite understand.

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message any mutation here that affects speed is an automatic no.
Phototissue and nocturnal are still stupid to include in the game anyway

[heady zealot]

I don’t like the speed mutations either, it’s basically forcing others to also get them or be left behind

[lean wren]

no reason to play raptor at all since the hitbox of the othe raptor gets in the way of any carni being pounced

you could be completely on the other side of the dino and still hit the other raptor

[heady zealot]

Ohh, yeah the rng pounce mixed with bad lag/ ping does make it pretty bad to play

Still not as bad as Troodon though

[lean wren]

its not even rng you can be completely on the other side of them and still pounce the omni with good ping

[heady zealot]

Ohhh

[tulip tusk]

@green heart rumple my friend can you remove that bot in balance feedback

that little scam bot that slipped beneath the radar somehow

ty

[green heart]

Thanks, automod slacken

[stiff ibex]

@astral granite you do know some dinos arent meant to be able to kill others in a 1v1?? 😭😭 not being able to kill stego as cera in a 1v1 is perfectly reasonable you're 1.3t stego is 6t

once stego reaches 2t suprise!! they outweigh you of course theyre going to have an easier time killing you LMAO

[hasty coyote]

Plus, this game is balanced on being able to survive encounters. You want to know the way to hard counter a stego and survive? Walk away.

Also, if cera could 2-shot a 2ton stego to the head, that means charged bite would have to deal 500 damage, that’s nearly double what it currently does

[stiff ibex]

yesss exactly that would be so broken LOL

[sleek sierra]

Why doesn't food just jump into my mouth? Why don't herbivores just die when I approach? Why do the devs hate me!?!?

[stiff ibex]

[astral granite]

That’s fine, I am just annoyed by the fact that my full charged bites to the head did nothing to him while he can just press left click and kill, it is annoying, it’s fine for him to have tons of hp but c’mon man oneshotting is kinda sus and he wasn’t even a sub

[stiff ibex]

did they headshot you? because theres your answer lol

also to be around 2t the stego wouldve been around 40% growth its possible they were around 50% growth if they one shot you with I'm assuming a charged tail swing, which means they wouldve been closer to 2.9t lol

also stego has overall more health than cera so theres a reason why your charged bites dont do much damage lmao the weight difference + health pool difference + depending on the mutations the stego has affects the fight

[vale brook]

damage doesnt rely on weight differences anymore like legacy, all values are flat except for headshots/tailshots iirc

but yes, cerato should struggle ( and 7/10 times, fail) against a 2-3 ton stego. especially when cerato is meant to be subpar in hunting to begin with.

can i see cerato taking one out? sure, ive seen ceratos take out FG stegos (albeit before their bile nerf recently). but it should be hard and should be more reliant on the stego being bad, rather than the cerato being good

[stiff ibex]

... it kinda does though dmg scales as you grow you dont get the full dmg output as a baby lol that would be broke asf

[vale brook]

yes but the weight of your target has no factors when determining how much damage you do, compared to legacy or things like that

you will do the damage shown on your tab screen (save for the congenital hypoglasia mutation)

[cobalt dagger]

I don't think it's raptor's hitbox that makes them pin you from 20 feet away, I think it's the raptor having high ping. The game favors the laggy hitter. Same thing causes carnos and stegos that hit you from 20 feet away too, it's their lag, not your's.

Might be better if we made it so that lag didn't favor the hitter. Probably shouldn't favor the dodger either. I'd like to see lag have 0 benefits, because else I can just join a foriegn server with something that can tank (stego for example) and every time someone is frozen on my screen but not their's I can go kill them for free.

I don't do this. But armed with this knowledge, I could.

I mean I get some people just have bad internet and like... I am sorry for that but, they put servers in places like south america, asia, ect to try and help with that. While good ping can sometimes be hard to get for some people, bad ping is too easy to acquire (Just pick server on other side of the world)

[leaden remnant]

issue is that if the broken servers are the ones who decide, you gamble your life with 80% chance of dying every time you pounce