balance-feedback-discussion

[winged plinth]

That is my problem, they always go for carnos to get nerfed and forget about the others

[slim dragon]

The 3-4 tons stego is stegosaurus ungulatus

[dusky surge]

carno didn't get nerfed. It got reworked. But in the context of cera v carno, yes, it got nerfed

[golden coral]

What about normal bites?

[winged plinth]

What is stenop?

[slim dragon]

A species of stegosaurus

[keen plover]

rn 1 normal bite puke them lol. iirc same with carno and teno

[winged plinth]

Ok can you show me a study that says they were close to 8 tons?

[keen plover]

I personally think that cerato vs carno should be terrain dependent. Cera should get the edge in jungles, waters or on a body though.

Right now Cera just wins and it's boring lol

I'd accept it if it was maybe hard to grow or maintain but it's literally easy mode

[slim dragon]

I can't find good sources, but I get most of my info from the paleotalk channel
There's actual well-documented people there

[winged plinth]

You can win against a cera actually if you kept spamming charges but its not always

[dusky surge]

I'd make bile 30 x (cerato weight/target weight)

So on a regular bite on a dilo, it'd do around 56% of your stomach, and on charge, it'd instapuke a dilo

[keen plover]

Or if it required some skill

Straight up left click win button

[keen plover]

Cera outdamages you so honestly?

[winged plinth]

I literally searched about stegosaurus stenop and never have found any good infos about them unless some fan made pictures

[mint star]

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2014.0984

more specifically
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/cms/asset/e3d14a61-48c2-47be-bd92-4886ed5f297e/rsbl20140984f02.jpg

that didnt embed, bruh

[winged plinth]

I've seen a video about someone who kept charging on a cera and killed him, the carno was 90% growth but I think that cera was bad

[golden coral]

Oh wait, maybe I misunderstood what you meant

[mint star]

do keep in mind this source was from 2015

[keen plover]

Yeah that could work. Would actually have some counterplay as well.

[winged plinth]

I don't see any species that reached that weight, even the first source you sent me is saying stegos were 1.6 - 3 tons

[slim dragon]

So before box stego ?

[keen plover]

Cera was 100% bad lol

[mint star]

actually the "reconstruction" of the stego they did reveals the ultimate form you would never expect

horseshoe crab stego

[winged plinth]

So?

What does this have to do to make stegos 8 tons

[winged plinth]

Yeah I know

[mint star]

@slim dragon purple image bottom right

[slim dragon]

I see

[golden coral]

@keen ploverHow many bites do you think cera should require, normal and charged, for things from herrera sized to deino sized, to puke them?

[slim dragon]

This is what I was talking about

[winged plinth]

I guess they will have to nerf stegos in the future for many reasons, it's too oversized and won't match with other dinosaurs, they might lower stegos to mid tier

[winged plinth]

No way stegos have 6 legs ☠️

[slim dragon]

Then they would need to greatly increase its speed

[golden coral]

But why? Stego needs to be buffed, not nerfed. And its not oversized, again, large stegos could get up to 7-8T, it's "undersized" if anything. Stego is not a mid tier, even para isn't a mid tier.

[winged plinth]

I don't know about this

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that just make it a slightly worse kentro

[slim dragon]

I do
Basics of balance
If it's downsized, then it can't defend itself from bigger things anymore
So it needs to be faster so it's able to escape them

[golden coral]

Also box stego is hilarious, to think our first stego model was accurate is funny

[winged plinth]

There is no stego that reached even 7 tons, if there is, feel free to show me

[slim dragon]

This one ?

[winged plinth]

I don't know if that's can be like legacy or not

[golden coral]

Again, according to estimates, there are, they did get up to 7-8T. I'd have to go ask a friend to to get the estimates if you need it, but there should be people in paleo talk that do know these things

[golden coral]

I don't recall our ingame model looking like that xD

Though I do miss the rearing up to eat

[winged plinth]

Do a quick search and show me an estimate that say it was 8 tons

[slim dragon]

That's not just "like legacy"
That's how viability works
If you can't fight and can't escape, you're dead
If you have an animal that ends up in this situation without being able to do anything to prevent it, it's unviable
And we don't want unviable animals in this game

[winged plinth]

Modern studies says it reached almost 4 tons

[keen plover]

Assuming full hunger

I'll jump between some playables but

Herrera 1 shot puke with either bite or charge bite
Omni - 2 bites or charge bite
Carno 4 bites or 2 charge bites

I'd make herbivores generally more resistant. Requiring 2x the bites.

So 8 bites for a teno or 4 charge bites

Diablo would honestly take a ceratos full bar if it was up to me lol. Stego would be unattainable unless swarmed.

Cerato doesn't need to use bacteria to hunt diablo either. Cerato is a great hunter without bacteria, people just want a crutch

[golden coral]

That's not how it works, but I'll ask around and get back to you on it

[slim dragon]

Oh first in-game stego model
I thought you meant first reconstruction

But btw in-game stego is outdated
It doesn't have the gular armor

[winged plinth]

Yeah and I hope getting some sources not random sites

[golden coral]

... Because we're talking about the game, so what else would I mean xD

[golden coral]

True, ours just has extra weak head

[golden coral]

Sounds okay to me!

[dusky surge]

Would mean that it only does 6.5% bile to a fg steg but

lol

[winged plinth]

I mean 5 tons stego would go greate against 2 Allos

Not all Allos can escae the tail

[golden coral]

Going to have to see on those, do you got a source?

[winged plinth]

Sure

[slim dragon]

Ok but it should be fast enough to run away from a rex as well

[golden coral]

Not with currently bad attacks

[keen plover]

I didn't do any maths but ah, yeah why not. Make it near impossible ! Go eat bodies and hunt things closer to your size in packs idc!

[dusky surge]

Yea!

[winged plinth]

Besides the sources @mint star sent I will show you more

[golden coral]

Please do, let's see

[slim dragon]

(proceeds to post wikipedia and prehistoric wildlife)

[golden coral]

No, I'll trust him on this

[golden coral]

Can you link to the source?

[winged plinth]

Wikipedia, but click on the numbers for the main source of the article

[slim dragon]

see ?

[winged plinth]

https://www.dimensions.com/element/stegosaurus

[winged plinth]

Wikipedia is a good source, because they use trusted sources I can show you

[golden coral]

Right, so I'll have a look there then

[slim dragon]

It isn't for paleontology

[golden coral]

I don't know about that one

But I'll see what I can find

[winged plinth]

I don't think you understand how wikipedia works

[slim dragon]

I do, and that is precisely the reason why I don't trust it

[winged plinth]

They literally give you the source in a box in the end of the article

Wikipedia is a famous source, do you know why? Because it doesn't say anything randomly, they use sources, if you want to get to the source click on the numbers it will lead you to the source of the article

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.25024

[golden coral]

You are aware that wikipedia is not always all that trustworthy, updated, and so on, right?

[winged plinth]

@slim dragon this is one of the sources used in the article, are you ready to read all of this to get to the stego's point? That why wikipedia is useful it saves your time

[winged plinth]

They still have a source box, you can read all of them and if there is something wrong tell me

Also I've sent you another source

So don't stuck with wikipedia as an execuse

[slim dragon]

No, I'm busy with something else

[golden coral]

Well, quick search in that one said 5T, from what I could see.

@winged plinthShould point out that it says average, so, leaves some room open, no?

[winged plinth]

That's why you sometimes will need wikipedia

[winged plinth]

Depends on the dinosaur, the environment, the age, the food, the health and a lot of things

But the biggest one we have now is a 5 tons or less

[golden coral]

But if the average is 5T, then it does stand to reason there are larger ones. Also allo is hilariously "tiny" apparently if we go by that source xD

[winged plinth]

It didn't even say 5 tons is an average

The most says it was 2-4 tons

Also until we find a bigger one, then yes,

[winged plinth]

Do you thibk Allosaurus were like JW and Ark allosaurus?

It was almost as big as a carno

[golden coral]

Where do you see that?

[golden coral]

Well, wikipedia says large allo about 3T

So you know, different sources as it were

[golden coral]

And yes, it does mention average, but maybe I'm not reading it correectly

[winged plinth]

Never has been stated like that

[winged plinth]

Literally the same sources I have shown you

[golden coral]

Well no, not carno, allo, wrote wrong

[winged plinth]

Oh then yeah, but average allos were no big differences than average carnos

[golden coral]

Well, I see mentiones of 5T and average, so I don't know what you're seeing then

[winged plinth]

Here is a comparison between the biggest Allosaurus we have got and I think that's the bigfest carno we have got? I'm not sure

[winged plinth]

Show me

[golden coral]

Well then we got an accurate sized carno in game, being about 1.3T

[winged plinth]

I didn't say it's not accurate, but that is not the average

[golden coral]

Stegosaurus (5284 kg) (average adult body mass). Now I could, to be fair, be completely misunderstanding this. One, I'm very tired, and two, not really used to reading papers like these, so keep that in mind.

[golden coral]

Well it would be, if that's average allo, and you said there were no big difference to average carno

[winged plinth]

Also if you haven't noticed, the picture shows a 1.03 meters not a 1.3 tons

I don't know btw what does 1.03 meters femur means tho

[golden coral]

Huh?

Allosaurus (1388 kg) is what I'm reading, so, if thats average, and carno is similar, then ingame carno currently is accurate

[winged plinth]

Yeah but the most were like 1.5 to 1.9 tons, I only asked for a 1.5 - 1.6 tons carno in the game I don't know what is the problem with that

[winged plinth]

Again, I didn't say it's not accurate

[golden coral]

I didn't say that was a problem, not sure why you're bringing that up.

But if average is 1.3, then carno is good to go, if average stego is around 5T. And if you want larger carno, then I can want larger stego too.

@winged plinthhttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/650426161868046340/1284419793008590888/image-37-1.png?ex=66e690a6&is=66e53f26&hm=77d9822e805e41f5f976a18f83c4135a3d9adbaca30922ea9eab9145b54f8bc6& Well, I got this for you I guess

[winged plinth]

Yes but I don't think this is the average

Mostly the minimum size

[golden coral]

Maybe you should go look at the source you linked, cause one of us is not reading or understanding it correctly

[winged plinth]

So do you think a 1.5 - 1.6 tons carno fits more in the game than 1.3 carno?

[winged plinth]

Source?

[winged plinth]

Which one? I didn't link a source about allosaurus not carnotaurus

Only a simple picture

[golden coral]

What does that have to do with us figuring out size estimates... But I don't think either of the weights "fit", since I care about how the playable does its job and what it's good at hunting and not good at hunting

Either weight could work far as I'm concerned, as long as carno is a good pursuit small game hunter that avoids similar sized and larger critters more often than not

[golden coral]

This one

[winged plinth]

Average is 1.7 tons, biggest which was AMNH 680

[golden coral]

Right, according to wikipedia, not according to the source you linked

[winged plinth]

I was talking about the isle

[golden coral]

Which kind of shows my point of wiki no neccesarily being a great source

[winged plinth]

This was about stegosaurus?

[golden coral]

The others are mentioned in it, due to existing together with stego

So you can go look for that in the source

[winged plinth]

Oh, bro how are you free to read all that

[golden coral]

I didn't read the entire paper, since it talks about prey to predator ratio and food volumes in the formation and so on, which aren't really relevant to the discussion

[winged plinth]

Show me where did it say allosaurusbwere 1.3 tons only?

The average I mean

[golden coral]

But if you take average stego weight as 5T from there (didn't see any 2-4T), you should also take allo weight and others from there. And if you then go that average carno is like average allo, then it does seem like average carno would be about 1.3T as well.

[golden coral]

Look in table 2.

[winged plinth]

Can you SH it?

I won't look for the entire page about this too lazy tbh

[golden coral]

... Open link, search on page, put in allosaurus, or stegosaurus, look around

Why do I need to tell you how to search on a page?

[winged plinth]

Are you lazier than me or what

[golden coral]

Go read your own source, if you want to pull numbers from it

[winged plinth]

I still don't know where you get the average stego of being 5 tons

[golden coral]

Cause it' s mentioned in the source you linked

[winged plinth]

And why should I use this as the only ultimate source for all dinosaurs? I'm free to use multiple sources

[golden coral]

You're the one that linked it, and now you want to discard it?

Well sure, you can use multiple sources, which is why we're having a discussion, because there are mutiple claims on the sizes

[winged plinth]

I didn't say I discard it, I didn't say it's either wrong, some studies says Allosaurus were 1.3 tons, the others say itbwas 1.7 tons, what's the problem?

[winged plinth]

You still haven't proven that the stego reached 7-8 tons tho which was our discussion about

[golden coral]

Which kind of would point to both options being possible, as then is smaller or larger stego, just like smaller or larger carno or allo

[winged plinth]

I don't know why we went to carno and allo

[golden coral]

Well, I did give you a GDI estimate, working on getting the source for that one. And some of the other linked images do show at least around 6T+ as potential it would seem.

[slim dragon]

You're still going on about irl estimates ?
Remember, irl dinosaur sizes don't matter in-game

[winged plinth]

Yeah and where does it say the biggest stego is 8 tons you are just giving a claim with your own estimations because "average stego were 5 tons then the biggest should be more than 5 tons"

[golden coral]

That was just because allo is also mentioned, and you then said average carno is like average allo

[winged plinth]

We are not talking about the game anymore, it's a paleo realistic chat rn

[winged plinth]

So what's the problem?

Bro do you want some off topic fights or what

[golden coral]

You do know what average means, right? But you're right, I'm working on that source, though the GDI would support my claim at the least.

[golden coral]

What? There's no "problem", I'm just responding to what you're saying

[winged plinth]

Well then until you prove your claim with a good source we can talk about this later

[golden coral]

Yeah, this has gone quite off topic

[winged plinth]

Then why are you arguing 😂

[golden coral]

Sure, not that it matters for the game anyway, as stated earlier.

[winged plinth]

Yes

The isle's stego isn't even 8 tons tho

It's 6 tons

[golden coral]

Yes, I know. The argument is that it could be upped to 8T or so, and that there is, far as I've heard and seen at least, IRL stegos at those sizes

Not that the game needs realism to change sizes anyway

So I could just as well argue that stego should be upsized so it can take on the apexes on more even ground

[dusky surge]

And IRL aside... Diablo is 3 tons

World is your oyster with sizing here

[winged plinth]

It's 2 tons not 3 tons

[dusky surge]

I'm talking about The Isle's weights

[winged plinth]

If stego got oversized then no one can take him down, many mid tier dinos had the ability to take down a stego in packs like allosaurus

[winged plinth]

Ok

[dusky surge]

It being upsized doesn't stop allo from fighting it

It just makes stego have a chance against rex, which should be the case

[winged plinth]

Allos will be 2-2.5 tons mostly, are they going to win against an 8 tons dino that gives you its tail to defend?

[dusky surge]

Yes, if they're smart

[winged plinth]

Why does it need to have a chance against Rexes? I think also stegos are faster

[dusky surge]

There is no universe where stego is faster than rex lol

[winged plinth]

And what if the stego is smart too?

[dusky surge]

Then it'll be a good fight

[winged plinth]

In legacy it was

As I remember

[dusky surge]

In legacy it flat wasn't done

[winged plinth]

Wdym?

[golden coral]

You keep going for IRL when it suits you. A stego at 8T would still be wary of trike, rex, giga, anky, spino and so on. And packs of allos and albertos and so on, in the game. Which would be fine.

[golden coral]

Yes, if they have 3-4 of them in the pack, they would stand a decent chance

[winged plinth]

Nah actually 6 tons stego is fine

8 tons will be too much

[golden coral]

In progression stegos could fight rexes, for that matter

[winged plinth]

There is no need to make all dinosaurs capable to face other apexes

[golden coral]

Survival, it was never balanced for

[dusky surge]

There is absolutely a need for it if they can't escape said apexes

[golden coral]

No, it's not, it's a rather weak stego, when it should be better. Just like you want stronger carno. 1.3T carno is fine.

1.6T carno is too much. Again, you can apply your own argument to yourself

[winged plinth]

Not an execuse to maks it 8 tons

[golden coral]

No, and most can't. Letting stego and acro be up there (since they consider acro an apex too, maybe at least) would be fine

But sure, put it at 7.5T, put acro at 7T, and it might be just fine

[winged plinth]

Maybe, and maybe not, especially stegos can be in packs too

[dusky surge]

Packing up should never be a requirement to simply survive

[golden coral]

Honestly would fit quite well, and give acro the size to justify it's chokehold and all that

[golden coral]

Stegos really should only come in pairs to be honest

And yeah sure, a pair of stegos are not huntable, any more than a pair of trikes are

[slim dragon]

Stego is like the worst candidate for packing

[winged plinth]

6 tons stego currwntly is good, it can destroy many dinosaurs including future ones like Allos and Albertos, it should had been a mid ties btw not an apex

[winged plinth]

I know but still

[golden coral]

It can't, it really can not, so no, it's hardly good

And why should it be a midtier?

[winged plinth]

Same goes with allos then

[dusky surge]

Allos don't need to pack up to survive

[golden coral]

Yeah, you don't need another allo to be viable

[dusky surge]

They can hunt small creatures, run away from large apexes, scavenge, etc. Nothing is making them die if they don't have a pack

[winged plinth]

There are differents, stegos can defend their selves easily drom mid tier dinos, but carnos can't

[winged plinth]

Then don't try to hunt down a stego alone

[dusky surge]

Never said you should

[winged plinth]

Our conversation was about stego

Not how Allos can survive

[golden coral]

Carnos can run away

That's your defense

Yes, make stego able to run from everything works, but it makes little to no sense

[winged plinth]

Bro you are trying to say this just to convince me about the carno, you know that I know that you know that stegos are good now

[jovial vessel]

if things cant run away or escape in some regard then they should be able to hold their ground in some way, surely.

[winged plinth]

I want some fights and to defend my body

[winged plinth]

Not currently, but in the future

[golden coral]

Stegos are not good, no. Not at all, carno is far better playability wise.

[golden coral]

Why in the future?

[winged plinth]

I don't think acros will be 7 tons

[golden coral]

Play something more suited for fighting. I want to be able to fight rexes on stego, if you want to fight allo on carno.

[keen plover]

Literally should be designed around that in the 1 v 1 lol

[winged plinth]

Yes better for running

[golden coral]

Just.. why can you not admit that my want is as valid as yours?

[winged plinth]

Its obvious, even in legacy they weren't apexes

[golden coral]

Why do you think you going "I want good fights on carno, make it more powerful" is fine, but me going "I want good fights on stego, make it more powerful" is not fine

[golden coral]

Except in prog, stego was

[winged plinth]

The problem is your idea is not accurate and mine is accurate

[golden coral]

It was pretty damn powerful, granted rex would win the damage trade, but rex in prog was also stupidly overpowered xD

[golden coral]

No, the problem is you think "IRL accuracy" matters

[jovial vessel]

they wont do this tho, which is unfortunate haha

[winged plinth]

Becauae what you want is impossible to do, my wants were realistic

[golden coral]

But stego in prog had the highest bleed, even higher than giga (who was the bleeder apex) at one time

[golden coral]

Literally game, nothing is impossible

You just think it being accurate makes a difference when it doesn't

[winged plinth]

That does for me because the isle is the most realistic thing I've ever seen about dinosaurs, I even believed once it's better than Red dead redemption 2 lmao

[golden coral]

As every other playable in the game can show

We have venomous dilo and troodon, pouncing omniraptor that doesn't even exist, and so on

If you think the Isle is the most realistic, what standards for realism do you have?

[winged plinth]

Can you make a 100 tons raptor? Ofc not why? Because it is impossible

[golden coral]

When we literally have fictionalized and directly JP (not very accurate to real life) inspired critters

[golden coral]

But could you make omni weight 1T, yes. You could. Or lower it to 300 kg or so. That would also work. I'm not asking for any more than you are.

You could also put rex and trike at 7T or so, and thus not worry too miuch about the size of stego

[winged plinth]

I told you yesterday, I don't care about gameplay mechanics, actuallt having unaccurate abilities won't make the game empty like legacy was

[winged plinth]

If you want oversized dinosaurs then go play Ark

[golden coral]

No, you only care about IRL size, and only when it comes to your own playable. Despite having been told that IRL size doesn't matter. Diablo is massively oversized, beipi is undersized.And so on.

[golden coral]

We already have that in the Isle, see diablo.

[winged plinth]

I already asked for a nerf to diablo

Beibi I don't care about

[golden coral]

So I guess it's Ark now, we also have undersized ones

Right, so you're not consistent then

You don't care about the actual thing being accurately sized or not, you just want fights

[winged plinth]

That's how I enjoy the game

[jovial vessel]

whats wrong with stegos as they are rn

[winged plinth]

But not to ask that stegos should be aboe to defeat a rex

[winged plinth]

Erik says they should be oversized to 8 tons

[golden coral]

Well, most of everything really. Mostly how utterly clunky, bad and generally unfun it is to play, much less do combat with.

[golden coral]

Yes, because it would make it fit better with the other large things

[winged plinth]

It's unfun yes I agree already

[golden coral]

Yep, and I want to enjoy that too, but you don't think that's fine

[winged plinth]

But not that bad at fights

[golden coral]

Carno can't defeat allo, stego can't defeat rex

[winged plinth]

Enjoy with limits, you want every dinosaur in the game to have the ability to kill a Rex

[golden coral]

... How do you possibly come to these conclusions?

[jovial vessel]

course stego is slow and clunky, have you looked at its shapes? lmao

also a good player behind a dinosaur could defeat above its class, easy

[winged plinth]

Did I say carnos can defeat allos tho?

[golden coral]

Because I want stego to be able to fight rex, I want every other playable to be able to do it? How does that make sense?

[golden coral]

No but you want them to fight allo and be able to win, no?

[winged plinth]

Ask yourself because this is not my logic

[golden coral]

Oh sure, being slow in movement and all, but I'm talking about the attacks and how well stego handles

Being clunky simply is not fun, and does not make for a good or engaging playable

[golden coral]

You... literally said it, not me

[jovial vessel]

then dont play stego?

[golden coral]

Abdullah2093 — Today at 10:45 AM
Enjoy with limits, you want every dinosaur in the game to have the ability to kill a Rex

[winged plinth]

I didn't say that, but I wanted them to do a good damage to them, especially 2 previous carnos maybe can defeat the future Allo, but now its impossible

[golden coral]

Right, so let a playable be bad and clunky and not just play it, sure.

I guess we could apply that to any playable, for any reason really

[winged plinth]

No I didn't

[golden coral]

No?

[winged plinth]

That's what you want lmao

[golden coral]

That's not you then? Saying that I want something I never said I wanted

[neon portal]

how is making it bigger going to make it any better to play?

[mint star]

goddamn this conversation is still going on

[golden coral]

So it's literally your "logic"

[winged plinth]

You wanted stegos to win against rexes

[jovial vessel]

this is my after dinner entertainment

[mint star]

bro this was my morning, lunch, and now evening entertainment

[winged plinth]

Idk, Erik said he wants stegos to be 8 tons

[golden coral]

It's not, it's merely to make it fit with the apexes in "power". There are far more things that needs changed to make stego good and fun that has nothing to do with it's size.

[golden coral]

Yes. Does that mean "all dinoaurs can win vs rex"?

[winged plinth]

No not mine, I only asked for carnos to be still or maybe downsized to 1.5 - 1.6 I never asked for oversizing them as you want to oversize stegos

[golden coral]

I do not want "every dinosaur in the game to have the ability to kill rex", I want stego to be able to fight off a rex, and not die to it, since it's more reasonable than making stego run away far as I'm concerned.

[golden coral]

Yes, it's yours, because it was your claim of what I wanted, not what I actually wanted.

[winged plinth]

I only said "all dinosaurs" because you are using my logic wrong to attack me

[winged plinth]

But it's not realistic, my problem is with realistic

[golden coral]

No I'm not. You want carno to be able to fight things, I want stego to be able to fight things. You only think it's fine because "realism" when realism does not matter. And you also ignore beipi and others, because you don't care about realism, only that your carno can fight stuff.

[dusky surge]

That's a terrible way to justify an animal being actively bad

Stego is clunky and bad, but not in the "oh it's big" way but rather the "this feels godawful to control" way

Deino is not half as clunky as stego

[winged plinth]

@golden coral if you want stegos to be oversized then post a suggestion here #balance-feedback

[golden coral]

You're not even consistent in your desire for realism

[dusky surge]

I went out to vote, played some games with my friends, hung out with family, and this dude is still going

[golden coral]

I would, if I could be bothered to, but since it won't matter due to the devs making the decision, I'll wait for mods and do it myself as it were.

[winged plinth]

I don't know what does that even mean but ok

[mint star]

vote? the hell you voting for? which corrupt gambling corporation to rule the state government?

[winged plinth]

No go post it and let's see who will agree with you

[dusky surge]

YES

[mint star]

marvelous

[jovial vessel]

How is it clunky? Ive only played it a few times bc I dont enjoy its slow gameplay but do enlighten me on what exactly is its issue in its controls
because its an animal that focuses on swinging its tail and it does it rather slow (can you imagine if it could do it fast? no thanks)

[golden coral]

You claim you care about realism, but you ignore beipi being undersized, you ignore diablo being oversized (though you did say you want it nerfed) and you only apply your realism when it suits your playable. Omni isn't even realistic. And so on.

[winged plinth]

My problem is I want carnos to be more accurate, your problem is that you want stegos to me more unaccurate, did you understand the differences between us?

[golden coral]

That's exactly the issue. The attacks are far too slow, cliunky, excessive stmina cost, cooldown, and so on. Combined with slow playable, makes it utterly bad.

[winged plinth]

Beibi doesn't change anything in the game and dibbles I already agree for a nerf, for omnis they are fine

[jovial vessel]

If they sped up its attack rate, can you imagine the complaints

[golden coral]

Why, you think votes matter?

[winged plinth]

To see if your idea is good or not

[golden coral]

Beipi changes as much as everything else. But even if it didn't, you should still take it into account.

[winged plinth]

@golden coral this is the conclusion of our debate

[golden coral]

No, because you only want carno more "accurate" so you can fight, not because you care about accuracy.

[golden coral]

I know my idea is good, no amount of other people thinking otherwise is going to change that. Majority does not mean being correct, you know that, right. Hence why I can argue my point here instead. Because even if I did get 100 upvotes, it won't change anything.

[winged plinth]

I don't care about what you say because carnos are more accurate like this and stegos are not with your idea, I didn't say tho carnos should be able to defeat many dinos like rexes

[dusky surge]

Here's a list

• Tailjab is bound to RMB, but so is power swing, so to tail jab, you have to spam RMB. Alt-LMB remains unused, despite tail jab being the perfect attack to put on it.
• When using the running power swing, the stego swings in the opposite direction of where you're aiming the camera
• Stego's power swing has a ridiculous level of stam cost on top of a cooldown. No animal should ever need to spend that much stamina on an attack. Additionally, the cooldown destroyed stego's once engaging ability to do combos in combat, completely ruining a fun gameplay element.

[golden coral]

You don't care because you don't actually want an accurate carno, you want a fighter. Since you don't care about accuracy itself, only when it suits you.

[jovial vessel]

Thank you, this is a much better breakdown

[golden coral]

Oh I'm sure, but it would actually make stego good, which is the point. Stego isn't good, and people like that so they can easily take it on.

[dusky surge]

I don't want its attack rate faster

[winged plinth]

@golden coral listen I can't debate you anymore, I told you why carnos are more accurate depends on studies they are the same previous carnos, but you want inaccurate stegos that never been 8 tons in the world, have a good day

[dusky surge]

I just want the penalty of stam and cooldown to not be so goddamn punishing

[golden coral]

Except your studies kind of didn't say that. And again, accuracy does not matter for the game anyway.

[jovial vessel]

Admittedly I havent played stego since it got its new attacks so I have no idea about its stam costs but the isle devs LOVE to punish herbis when they use heavy attacks lmao

[golden coral]

Remove the cooldown, equalize the jabs to the side angle attack speed, and we're good

[dusky surge]

Devs tend to balance herbis by adding jank lol

[golden coral]

I'll take the stamina cost, but stego should not be a precision animal

[mint star]

i hope to god they dont butcher kentrosaurus

[dusky surge]

A raptor will pounce it, get impaled, go to balance feedback, and it'll all be over for kentro

[golden coral]

I do think equalizing the jabs to all be as fast as the side jab would be good

[mint star]

the fierce wolf should NOT fear the walking cactus

[golden coral]

Then you got a "basic" attack that's good vs agile/speedy critters

[jovial vessel]

make kentro a walking pounce deterrent

[neon portal]

I hate how accurate this is

[golden coral]

But yeah, far too clunky and baitable/slow attacks, plus cooldown making it worse for the new attack, plus excessive stam cost, plus weird controls/issues

i'm not sure how stego isn't just bad if you actually look at how it plays and functions

[jovial vessel]

I dont think Stego should have come out as early as it did to the roster (same with deinos tbh)

[neon portal]

Yeah sounds like the current mechanics need more work and with that would prob be more fun if it had something in its class to fight against 1v1

[dusky surge]

its what happened to stego

[jovial vessel]

im sick of omnis

[keen plover]

same 😭

[winged plinth]

Search it up

[golden coral]

Search up what now?

[winged plinth]

Carnos weight

[golden coral]

Why?

[winged plinth]

Bro you asked me about my studies but ok

[opal echo]

Around 8 for the biggest one, we don't have that many complete adult stegos iirc(I'm the fastest Replier)

[slim dragon]

I know I wasn't dreaming when I said stego was 8 tons
But why do so many estimates put it at around 2-3 tons then ?
Did stego's size recently change and they're all just outdated ?

[opal echo]

Might just be using smaller specimens

[winged plinth]

no, maybe this is the outdated estimate, I remember that I saw an estimation for a spinosaurus that reach 12-22 tons

however I don't where this stegos came from, I don't even saw a one that reached 8 tons

also even if it was really 8 tons, then this will be a rare thing, not the average stegos are 8 tons, like there are people who reaches 2 meters tall but the most are not, does this mean all humans are 2 meters tall? no

[winged plinth]

I'd love to see the source of this

[opal echo]

The larger one is YPM 1853 iirc, the holotype there might be a sub-adult. There's a bunch more stegos in the 5-6 range iirc. Prob better to ask in #paleotalk cuz idk that much about em.

[balmy pewter]

[balmy pewter]

It’s really not clunky at all I like stego where it’s at if you know how to play, it’s actually really good Dino. And the Stam cost for it heavy swing is PERFECT if not NOT high enough!!! you do know it puts a FG stegos on red / 5 health right ? That’s basically a one tap … to a 6 ton Dino lollll

[golden coral]

There's been plenty of explanations as to why it is clunky, and yes, it is. It is very clunky. The jab is very slow, locks you in place, and only the one side angle is actually decent. The swing has a cooldown, and extremely excessive stamina cost, making it both very clunky and just really bad to use. The damage does not excuse the stamina cost, when the delivery of the damage is so very bad. Also the only reason it hits another stego hard is due to the stegos own multiplier, not because of the high damage. So the attack isn't even as powerful as it might seem, and with the stamina cost and especially the cooldown, it's really bad.

So no, stego is a very badly designed playable, it's clunky, unfun and surprisingly bad at engaging in combat, which makes it all the worse when it has no choice but to fight, since it can't run away. Even a good player does not make the playable be better designed, or better at interacting or engaging, since you can't exactly get rid of the cooldown or speed up any attack or otherwise do something that relates to stats or mechanics, no matter how good you are. And the entire issue with stego is not skill related, but purely how bad the playable handles, how it feels, and how utterly nerfed it is for no good reason.

On top of how very telegraphed the running swing is, you're not likely to hit much of anything with it, aside from maybe a deino or another stego. It is not a useful attack overall, and the standing one has the same issues, but much more limited range. And then there's all the keybind issues making things even worse for that matter.

[balmy pewter]

Handle my light work M1

[forest veldt]

I mean what are you gonna use the heavy attack on apart from a Deino or a Stego though. Stegos a defensive Dino and does plenty of damage with it's regular swing to make it's predators back away or just 1 shots them.

[cerulean drift]

stegosaurus was not and should not be an unstoppable force of a dino, if it weren't for the stamina cost nothing could kill the thing. You can perform the running swing nearly instantly if done correctly. The stegosaurus shouldn't have good movement, it's a 6 ton cow. 2k damage is very good for how quick you can perform it. If stego were as good as you want it to be, there would be no need to add the larger more powerful herbivores to the game.

[golden coral]

Defensive playable that struggles with said defense. It's not just the swing that's bad, the jab is as well. Damage isn't relevant when you can not deliver it reliably. And that's the issue. If the jab was quick and efficient, it wouldn't be an issue. If the swing did not have a cooldown, it would not be as much of an issue. Though the stamina cost is still terrible, and needs adjustments.

[forest veldt]

The jab stuns and if you use it correctly then It's really not bad.

[cerulean drift]

how does it struggle to defend, it one shots majority of the playables in the game

[golden coral]

It wouldn't be, even with being adjusted. That's the thing. Current stego is just bad, it struggles due to being clunky. Stamina costs should be reasonable, 10-15% is not. And the swing is heavily telegraphed, so if you get hit, that's.... well, you clearly didn't see the raised tail I guess. Damage isn't the issue, the issue is the clunkyness. Why do I need to repeat this? Stego isn't powerful, and even adjusted, trike would be the better "brawler" anyway, for example.

[golden coral]

It's still clunky and only one good angle. That's the issue.

[golden coral]

Clunky, easily baitable, hard to land attacks, that are very obvious, telegraphed, can't be used while moving, and so on.

[forest veldt]

a 6 ton animal is going to be clunky though?

[cerulean drift]

10-15% for the running swing is perfectly fine, like I said it one shots 90% of the playables

[golden coral]

No, no it doesn't have to be. Stego is slow in run, that's fine, being clunky in attacks is not.

[slim dragon]

That's assuming Trike doesn't get the same treatment and a 20% stamina cost on its horn attack

[golden coral]

No, the stamina is very excessive, and one shot does not matter because it's not a damage issue.

It's a matter of reliably delivering the damage, it's a matter of reliably landing hits in the first place.

You could triple the damage and it wouldn't make stego better.

[cerulean drift]

that's not a dino problem

[forest veldt]

I don't understand how it's clunky in attacks, if you just time your attacks correctly it's perfectly fine, it can also just do it's regular tail swings on no stam so 🤷🏻‍♂️

[cerulean drift]

that's a user error

[golden coral]

You could also equalize the jab speeds and lower the damage, and it'd make stego better

[golden coral]

Yes, yes it very much is.

Cooldown on attack is literally the playables issue

[golden coral]

You don't see how the very slow jab angles are clunky? Or how the cooldown makes it clunky?

[golden coral]

Can't wait for both trike and rex to be as bad as stego, not that they will, but still

[cerulean drift]

I've never died to anything but other stegos when playing stego, the jab has a giant hitbox and isn't that difficult to hit

[slim dragon]

Rex will be fine, don't worry

[forest veldt]

The cooldown is fine and gives reason to time it and use it wisely, if you don't then expect to get punished for it.

[golden coral]

Except it is, and no, the hitboxes on stego attacks are really tight.

[golden coral]

It's not fine at all, it literally makes it clunky. And thus, really bad.

[cerulean drift]

no they aren't lol, you can hit something on the complete other side of you with the power swing

[forest veldt]

So you think being able to spam it makes it better?

[golden coral]

What?

[golden coral]

I think the normal attack speed from the anim itself is fine, and not spammable. Since you still need to raise the tail again before doing an attack. Hence, cooldown not needed.

Thus, added clunkyness for no good reason

[cerulean drift]

and the jab is able to hit things directly behind you

[cerulean drift]

stego shouldnt be as good as trike or rex

[forest veldt]

Cooldown is needed otherwise people will just spam it, like they do with HT Carno or spam pounce with raptor, it makes people use it wisely.

[golden coral]

Those angles are so slow and bad that if you get hit, that's entirely on you. If they were as fast as the specific side jab, then you'd have a point. Hence why the speed should be equalized.

[golden coral]

Yes, yes it should.

[cerulean drift]

no it shouldnt be

hello?

[golden coral]

Then everything should have a cooldown. Yet I doubt that'll be a thing. But no, it's not spammable because you can bite again and again. Unless even normal bites should have a cooldown then?

[cerulean drift]

stegosaurus was nowhere near trike and rex

[golden coral]

Yes, yes it should. Because there's no reason for it not to be.

Need I remind you it's a game, realism does not matter that much

But making stego not be clunky and bad, does not mean trike and rex wouldn't have better stats, so it's a moot point anyway

[forest veldt]

I mean tbf some regular bites do have a little cooldown, just depends on the playable, but yes a lot of the special abilities should have cooldown, including Stegos jab.

[cerulean drift]

trike and rex should be an entire new ball game

[golden coral]

No, it's just the animation, there's no actual cooldown.

[cerulean drift]

stegosaurus is not an apex

[golden coral]

And well, we'll just have to disagree on cooldowns then. I think it's a terrible thing that should not be applied at all.

[cerulean drift]

it should be able to run away from the apexes

[golden coral]

It can be, in the game.

[forest veldt]

Yeaaaaaaa no

[golden coral]

Yes, it's the anim, not an actual cooldown.

If you're talking about bites that is

[golden coral]

Which it can't. And also makes less sense, so it'd be better if it can fight. But even if you let it run, it doesn't make stego better or less clunky.

[forest veldt]

So when I bite on my raptor and I just stand there for a second after the animation is finished, that's part of the animation?

[golden coral]

Yep, it is. From what I've been told and how it works at least. There's no actual cooldown, it's just the anim being slow.

There's just "more" the anim does that makes it look that way

[cerulean drift]

it can, it's a game

[golden coral]

Currently doesn't have the speed for it from what we've seen of rex

Sure they could up that, I'd be fine with stego running from rex anyway, my issue is just how clunky and bad stego is as a playable

[slim dragon]

Yaaaay make stego 40 kmh so it can run away from rex

[golden coral]

And letting it run from rex does not make it a better, less clunky playable, so it doesn't change the situation really

But if stego is meant to be so clunky, being so large, then I fear for rex and trike, being 2-3T larger

[cerulean drift]

stego is struggling in fights with dibble

it's not going to be able to fight rex nor trike

[golden coral]

Stego struggles in pretty much all fights, but dibble is what it is

[cerulean drift]

not all fights

[golden coral]

Well, dibble is also a little overpowered, or well, stego is underpowered so

[cerulean drift]

dibble has a stun

stegos not underpowered

you just need to play it correctly

[golden coral]

No, it is underpowered, very much so

[cerulean drift]

how?

[golden coral]

Could be higher in weight, could have a moving attack, could have less clunky and arbitrarily excessively costly attacks, and so on

[slim dragon]

Loses to a dino half its size
Not underpowered
Duh

[golden coral]

Why do I need to repeat myself when I've explained multiple times what makes stego bad, clunky, and where the issue is

[cerulean drift]

user error my boy

[golden coral]

You going "just be better" doesn't remove the cooldown, or the stamina cost, or anything else

[cerulean drift]

stam cost is fine

[golden coral]

If so, we could overnerf omni, troodon, dibble, dilo, and go "just be better"

[slim dragon]

How so ?

[cerulean drift]

the jab stuns?

[golden coral]

No, the stam cost is not fine, not at all. If you think so, let's give every playable that cost then

[cerulean drift]

knocks over actually

[golden coral]

The swing does

[slim dragon]

If it needs to be super good to win against a dino much smaller than it, how it is a user issue ? It's clearly unbalanced

[golden coral]

Not the jab, last I checked

[golden coral]

Because stego should just be bad, that's the reason

[cerulean drift]

it can kill dibble in two hits, it's not a playable issue

[golden coral]

Just like "it can't fight rex", not because it can't, but because people just don't want it to

[golden coral]

Yes, it's a playable issue

[cerulean drift]

no it's not

[golden coral]

Damage doesn't make it better as a playable

[golden coral]

Yes, it is, but you don't seem to think anything but damage matters

[cerulean drift]

if you're losing to a solo dibble as stego, you gotta get yourself on a deathmatch server

[slim dragon]

Yet dibbles often run around killing stegos with the stegos being unable to do anything
Also it does not kill dibble in two hits because dibble has damage reduction

[golden coral]

Consistently not understandig the actual issue

It doesn't matter if you can, in theory, twoshot a dibble, no one is complaining about the damage

[cerulean drift]

on it's face yes, why are you trying to hit it in the face?

[balmy pewter]

I’ve never ran out of Stam in a defensive position against any Dino or aggro on stego with its new build! If you are having that problem it’s just a skill problem it has nothing to do with the build of that Dino.

[golden coral]

Stegos issues are not stat related, at least not mostly

[slim dragon]

Why should a dibble present anything but its face to a stego when trying to fight it

[golden coral]

Yes, it's the playable. And I'm sure you mean just hiding in terrain, good for you.

Stam costs are literally a stat, nothing to do with skill

[cerulean drift]

if you knock it down with jab you can easily kill it with a follow up swing

[balmy pewter]

No lol I’m a aggro stego and only grow them to kill stego

bahahahha

[golden coral]

You're confusing "running out of stam", with the argument "it's too high a cost"

[golden coral]

I don't think you play stego at all, I think you're just saying things

[cerulean drift]

if stego didn't have what you are complaining about, nothing would be able to kill it

[slim dragon]

Since when does jab knock down ?

[balmy pewter]

That’s fine when I’m off work I can show you clips

[golden coral]

Allo, alberto, rex, trike, you know, multiple things.

[balmy pewter]

then you can admit it’s a skill problem

[cerulean drift]

the "clunkiness" is what allows smaller dinos to be able to approach it

[balmy pewter]

and stop giving doo doo advice where it’s not needed

[slim dragon]

Also, does power swing still nocks down a dibble that is blocking ? Because if not then there is no chance

[golden coral]

It's not. It can't be, because we're not talking about what you can do, but how the playable work

[golden coral]

And the smaller ones shouldn't, thats the thing

Hence why stego is overnerfed and weak

[balmy pewter]

all you’ve been talking about it how you can’t play a good playable

[golden coral]

You have a playable that should by all rights be excellent vs speed/agility, but isn't

[cerulean drift]

jab is when you hold down right click then tap left click, it knocks down dibble

[golden coral]

Hence why it's clunky, and bad, by design

[slim dragon]

That's the power swing

[cerulean drift]

the devs have said raptor is one of stegos main predators

[golden coral]

No, I've been talking about how bad the playable is, due to how it works. And it is bad, just because you can make it work does not mean it's good. And I've not at any point, even mentioned my own skill or anything. You're just claiming that, for no good reason

[golden coral]

Have they, really? And even so, that makes little sense, but it does explain why stego is so bad then.

Which really bodes ill for rex and trike, if raptors are meant to hunt stegos well

[balmy pewter]

I never said you can make it work it’s just generally is a working playable and if or just because you can’t play it doesn’t mean it’s not

[cerulean drift]

they described raptors as large game hunters

[golden coral]

That's the swing, not the jab

[golden coral]

You're assuming I can't play. While I am purely talking about how bad the playable is.

You're going "you run out of stam, you're bad". I never said I run out of stam, I said the cost is excessive in and of itself. And so on.

[cerulean drift]

the running swing isn't the same as the standing still attack while holding right click

[golden coral]

If you hold right click, you do either a standing swing, or running swing (if you're running).

You have two versions of it, plus the old jab attack in the various angles

While the standing swing does not have angles, but a limited reach, though it can aim up/downwards

[cerulean drift]

I figured the jab was the standing swing because it quite literally jabs its tail at you

that's mb tho

[golden coral]

...

Then what would you call the old attack?

[cerulean drift]

normal swing

[golden coral]

Fair, I guess

Does get a bit confusing when the old attack has almost always been referred to as a jab, and the new one a swing, but at least we sorted that out

[golden coral]

I know. But there's good and bad large game. If omnis can so easily take down a playable that at least in theory has flank defense, how do you think that'll go for rex or trike, that doesn't have that reach

That's why balancing it for stego is a rather bad decision, and why they have to overnerf stego so badly and make it so clunky

Which probably in turn comes from it's more or less AI design to begin with

[winged plinth]

It does make sense tho, raptors are agile and hard to hit since they are too small and their hitbox as well

[golden coral]

Which would make sense, if it wasn't for the tail reach

If you compare it to trike or rex, then it should be rather obvious that stego has better ability to hit the raptors around it, easier

So if stego struggles, how is a trike going to hit a raptor

[winged plinth]

You can suggest that they can make stegos aim to go to the ground or the sky not for 1 direction

It's a good solution for your problem

But I don't think the devs are going to make it anyway

Since it needs to have a small change in the mechanics of the stego

[golden coral]

Im not sure what you mean there to be honest

[balmy pewter]

Let’s play stego

[winged plinth]

Like omnis are always under your tail which is hard to hit because they are too small, what I suggest is that you can control the aim of the stego, you can lower or higher the tail hit as you want

[golden coral]

But it's rather easy to make stego better. All you have to do is: Remove the cooldown, it's very unneccesary and utterly terrible for the feel. Put standing swing at 5% cost, running at 10% cost. Put the jab at 4% (and let it be used out of stam as currently), and equalize the speed of all the jab angles to the specific side angle (which is a decent speed for the attack). Adjust damage to the following: Jab, 750 damage. Standing swing, 1500 damage. Running swing, 2250 damage. Adjust the running swing so you swing on the side you're looking at, like all the other attacks. Put the jab on alt-RMB to avoid it clashing with the swing.

There you go, now you have a much less clunky stego, with a "base" attack, being the jab, that has good reach, good speed all around, does enough damage to get rid of the smaller stuff. And you have a more limited reach, telegraphed attack for larger things, at a reasonable cost and all.

[opaque vine]

Wouldn’t this make stegos unhuntable

[golden coral]

I would, if it didn't feel utterly bad. But in current state, there's no fun to be had, at all.

[golden coral]

Unhuntable to what, exactly?

[opaque vine]

Raptors for example

[cerulean drift]

if you remove the cooldown nothing will be able to hunt it

[golden coral]

You can, on the swing. But it in turn has limited reach "forward", and with the cooldown + excessive cost, it's just bad.

[opaque vine]

Baiting attacks wouldn’t be as useful

[golden coral]

You mean, the one thing that attacks the flank of the flank defender, would struggle? Good.

[golden coral]

At least you'd have to actually bait

[golden coral]

Again, even with no cooldown, larger things will be perfectly fine at hunting stego

[balmy pewter]

You gotta be flame baiting at this point

this isn’t REALLLL

[golden coral]

The attack wasn't even that fast without cooldown

[opaque vine]

Not good, sounds like you want stegos to not be contested for some reasons. You can’t make the only thing that can hunt stegos bad at it.

[golden coral]

Since you had to raise the tail again before being able to attack

[golden coral]

So, considering others of the roster means it can't be contested? Like how deino is uncontested currently, but won't be in the future?

[cerulean drift]

they've said rex won't kill stego as easily as ppl think, likely meaning if the rex decides to face tank the stego

[balmy pewter]

…. Why are you trying to spam the heavy attack?

[opaque vine]

Baiting attacks won’t matter since the stego dosent have a cool down anymore, no openings

[golden coral]

That's mostly in the "rex won't just walk up and kill stego in a bite" thing

[golden coral]

What?

[golden coral]

You can still bait, the attack wasn't that fast anyway

And the swing is limited in reach at that

You still can only attack on one side at a time on top of that

[opaque vine]

Deinos aren’t exactly uncontested. They have to deal with themselves since they’re cannibalistic

[cerulean drift]

okay but the rex won't have any openings to go in if there's no cooldown

[golden coral]

Apply the same to stego then

[golden coral]

Right, so you ambush. If you don't ambush, you don't get the kill?

[hasty coyote]

I think the main issue is that we don't have stego's main predators, so its really only being balanced around deino and omni, and neither of them should have a favorable matchup with stego. Stego is supposed to have good flank defense with the tail, but bad defense on the head, which basically hard counters omnis who want to avoid the face and go for flanks. Deino is designed to kill much smaller things with lunge and struggle with larger threats (like stego). This basically means stego has to be weaker than it should be because its being balanced around things it hard counters.

[cerulean drift]

and what about other dinos?

[golden coral]

Pretty much.

[cerulean drift]

if rex cant kill stego in a 1on1 fight what is?

[golden coral]

Uhm, same thing? Should a giga not ambush, should acros, or allos, or albertos not? Though the latter can come in packs, so that'd help them.

[opaque vine]

The new powerswing is pretty fast and has a decently long range. You can’t exactly outrun it when you try and go in for the “openings”

[golden coral]

Why wouldn't it be able to kill? What part of "don't just walk up and kill" means "can't kill"?

[opaque vine]

Apply what to stegos. Make them cannibalistic?

[golden coral]

Well, food contest. But the sentiment of "contend with their own"

[cerulean drift]

they should if they have the opportunity, but stego shouldn't be completely off the menu for any carnivore

[golden coral]

Saying you should ambush a stego as rex, and not just walk up to it and "fight" it does not mean rex can't kill stego

[golden coral]

Nor would it be, even with my changes

Stego wasn't unhuntable when it had no cooldown after all, far from it

[opaque vine]

That won’t help, there’s been food crisis before and you usually don’t have to contest anybody over the few scraps you find

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that just mean they didn't pull it off all that well

[cerulean drift]

no cooldown would make stego near impossible to kill, even for things specialized in killing it

[golden coral]

It wouldn't. It was fine before the cooldown, that wouldn't change

[opaque vine]

Making stegos uncontested is just a bad choice, you’re limiting their interactions with other species

[cerulean drift]

everything has cooldowns

[golden coral]

The attack wasn't very fast since you still had to go through the motions before being able to attack

[golden coral]

Uh... no, not everything does? Far from it.

Though cooldowns in general are bad, and I'd rather no playable have that

But I guess a rex having cooldown on bite would be funny

[cerulean drift]

except like omni pounce and cera charge bit

[golden coral]

it won't be uncontested, it never were, and wouldn't be, even with changes

[golden coral]

You mean two of the most overpowered abilities currently? xD

[cerulean drift]

but the strongest dino in the game at this time should have cooldowns

[golden coral]

Well, the bile due to charge bite, but still

[golden coral]

Then lets give deino a cooldown on lunge

[cerulean drift]

you could, but there wouldn't be any need for it bc you don't spam the lunge

[golden coral]

You're almost always better off growing something else. So not sure on the strength there.

[golden coral]

None the less, if you miss, you can use it again

So there are cases for "spam" there too

[cerulean drift]

you can do that with stego

[opaque vine]

Cool-downs are pretty useful for how the combat plays out though. It makes someone think about the timing more instead of spamming an attack hoping that at least one connects, it also gives your opponent a window of an opportunity to attack

[golden coral]

Yes, but with a cooldown, that shouldnt be a thing. Hence, give it to deino too then.

[cerulean drift]

who misses a deino lunge?

[golden coral]

Which just makes everything more clunky and bad, doesn't feel good in combat, isn't good.

[opaque vine]

Removing the cool-down
Significant stamina reduction on all attacks
2,000 damadge on the running powerswing:
Not sure about that

[golden coral]

That's kind of the thing, you get an opening not because you were good, but because cooldown gives you one

[hasty coyote]

Stego is def clunky and a bit underpowered compared to what it should be, but at the same time, clunky=/=underpowered. Pachy proved this for many updates. It was always pretty clunky to play, but it was only fine because the stuns covered the clunkiness and fractures made the enemy feel just as clunky. Now that it doesnt have stuns, the jank is left out in the open.

So I do think stego can have a good chunk of the clunk removed, like the cd on the charged swing and excessive stam costs, and still be fine. Honestly, I think the stam costs are a non-issue atm because damage to stam is just such a broken mutation it makes stego have near infinite stam, which should not be the case.

[golden coral]

You know the running one currently does about that damage, and glad you ignored all the other damage nerfs.

[hasty coyote]

running power swing already does that much damage

[golden coral]

10% stamina is high cost, the other two doesn't change much, jab takes 5% currently, going to 4% just adds a few more attacks

And even with no cooldown, you completely ignore the entire anim

[cerulean drift]

the stamina cost is completely fine

don't spam your swings and manage your stamina

[golden coral]

You couldn't spam the attacks before, because if you use the running one, you stop, you have to start running and prep the attack again

Thats by no means spamming

[opaque vine]

You can’t get an opening even if you’re good if the cool-down were to be removed. Your opponent can simply spam bite and then what? You can’t go in

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. It's not a matter of "spam", or managing stamina, it's a matter of how many attacks you should have + what else you misse out on if you use that much stamina

Such as more vunerable to bleed, among things

[golden coral]

You literally can, considering it didn't start with cooldown and stegos were still hunted and killed

[cerulean drift]

that's why you only use swings if you know they're going to land

it's not rocket science

[opaque vine]

The entire animation is pretty quick. The old one was slow yea, but the new powerswing basically blitzes you lol

[golden coral]

How does that even change anything?

Even if you hit, you still lost a lot of stamina, far too much

[golden coral]

Anim hasn't changed though?

[cerulean drift]

bc you gain stamina while above 60%

[opaque vine]

Yea because their old swing was extremely slow like I said

[hasty coyote]

I think the stam costs are only fine because damage to stam is insane. Without it, stegos dies very quickly. The whole idea of making alt attacks stull useable while out of stam was so that you could not just count how many attacks were left. You can literally count stego's attacks on your hands while you play.

[golden coral]

That's irrelevant to the point though

[opaque vine]

It has

[golden coral]

Really? We're talking about the swing, right?

[cerulean drift]

there's also revert damage to stam mutation

[golden coral]

So pick a meta mutation that shouldnt be a thing, or be bad

Not sure that's a good point, its like speed muts

[balmy pewter]

“Should be” in regards to what exactly?

[opaque vine]

Yea the new powerswing is different from the old one we had

[cerulean drift]

but you can still swing so why does stam matter?

[golden coral]

To be fair, I argue underpowered for a different reason, but yes, the biggest issue is undoubtedly the stego being so clunky and thus bad. And stam costs are bad, as hsould be proven by having to use that mutation to be okay.

[golden coral]

Will have to go look, but last I checked, a few HT ago, it wasn't anything different that I could see or feel

[cerulean drift]

if you can't manage your stam, pick the meta mutation

[golden coral]

And even if you can manage your stam, stam costs excessive and bad

You keep thinking it's a matter of "can it work" whereas I argue "its not working well"

Yes, you can manage your stam and never run out. Yes, you can time your attacks and not worry about the cooldown as much. No, stam cost is still excessive for what you get. No, cooldown is still bad because it makes the attack clunky and limits your ability to react, which in combination with not being able to run or dodge, makes it feel terrible.

[balmy pewter]

Ugh

[cerulean drift]

dodge?

[golden coral]

To be fair, I didn't feel like the old swing/running swing were slow at all when I tried it out back then. But what, they added cooldown, then added faster anim... Why not just remove the cooldown, this seems odd.

[cerulean drift]

stego should be able to dodge?

[golden coral]

You know, do something while you're on cooldown, was the point

You can't, hence why the cooldown is so clunky and bad

[cerulean drift]

that's the point of a cooldown

[golden coral]

And that's why it's so bad

[opaque vine]

Yea

[cerulean drift]

yeah that's enough islecord for today

[golden coral]

Going to check out the new anim, see if I can notice any difference

[golden coral]

I mean, what do you want me to say here. You think it's fine that a playable is bad and clunky, I don't think so.

[hasty coyote]

"should be" as in should be very difficult to near impossible for most of our current roster to kill. Its being balanced around things it hard counters as its predators, namely omni. Omni wants to jump the flanks, and stego prob has the best flank protection in the game other than kentro. Yet stegos can still struggle with omnis. It would be like balancing diablo around troodon being its main predator. Sure a large group of troodons can kill a diablo, but it it should be an incredibly difficult fight due to the sheer size difference alone.

This does not mean I want stego to vaporize everything with 0 start up and 0 end lag sphere of death around itself when it presses right click, but I do think it should be a bit stronger and feel more intuitive to play. Especially if rex is coming soon.

[golden coral]

Or you think I what, don't get why they added the cooldown? I do, I disagree with it, because it makes stego handle and feel terrible.

[forest veldt]

Personally I think you're just not very good at Stego.

[golden coral]

Based on literally nothing

Why is that peoples go to, instead of proper arguments

[forest veldt]

based on the fact you're complaining about things that aren't even a problem tbh.

[golden coral]

Can you not understand that you can argue due to how something feels, or looks, or works, no matter if you can handle it or not

[golden coral]

Except they are problems, and I've explained why

[forest veldt]

yeah for you lol

[golden coral]

Otherwise you could literally argue that for any feedback

Doesn't seem very productive to go "well no, it works", I mean sure, anything in the game works, and yet, we get changes, and buffs/nerfs

[hasty coyote]

because stam isnt used only for attacks, its used for bleed and movement too. Plus, being able to use your best attack 4 times, then being forced to not attack or not be able to use it again is kinda bad imo. Its old carno charge levels of stam consumption.

[golden coral]

Carno worked before the change, we still got the change, troodon did as well, heck, legacy worked... xD

[golden coral]

No, it's simply how the playable works, it's not a "me" or "you" thing, cooldown literally makes it clunky.

You somehow seem to think it's a matter of opinion when I point out that stego is clunky and has bad handling

[balmy pewter]

And it is lol like I said, I’ve never died to anything other then other stegos lol and I have lots of friends that’s have that same experience. If you are dying to smelling game on stego it’s not a build problem it’s a skill issue

[golden coral]

Just changing things to how I suggested would probably fix everything really.

[balmy pewter]

Don’t play a 6 ton herbi if you don’t wanna feel like a 6ton Dino that does a lot of damage for DEFENSE lol simple

[golden coral]

Don't play a playable that feels terrible to handle, has to hide in terrain to be good, and generally is badly designed

You can get so much more value out of growing a dibble

[balmy pewter]

Then play dib buddy

[golden coral]

You're also still thinking this comes from "oh you die to things" rather than a look at how the playable work

[golden coral]

I would, but I like stego as a critter

[balmy pewter]

Just because it feels the way it’s supposed to be doesn’t mean it’s a unplayable build

That’s your personal preference

[golden coral]

Didn't say it was unplayable, purely that it's not a good playable

[hasty coyote]

I don't think it would fix literally everything, it would make stego a good bit stronger against smaller threats (aka our current roster), but weaker agasint the things that actually worry me, stuff like allo and rex.

[golden coral]

I think even with the changes, it'd do fine vs allo at least

Rex is more of a stat issue, but up stego to 7.5T or so, and that might help

[leaden remnant]

erik is probably referring to stego controls doing whatever they feel like doing

[balmy pewter]

Lmfao nah nah don’t switch up now you have been saying it’s been unplayable

[leaden remnant]

or animations overlapping

[golden coral]

No, I've never ,at any point, said it's unolayable. I've said it's a bad playable, badly designed, clunky, terrible handling, and so on.

Not that you literally can not play it, or make it work

[golden coral]

That and generally cooldowns/clunky and slow attacks

[balmy pewter]

But they don’t

[golden coral]

They do, actually, there's some issue due to the keybinds being on the same button

[balmy pewter]

And that it needs to be reworked

[golden coral]

Yes, just like carno has been, troodon, cerato even

[leaden remnant]

the other day i did 3 running powerswings and it did a standing powerswing, a powerswing to the right and a powerswing to the left while doing the exact same movements

[golden coral]

Former carno "worked" it was "playable" but also bad at its job

[leaden remnant]

it did whatever it felt like

[golden coral]

Same with stego currently, it "works" but it's terrible at its job, feels bad to handle, and is overall bad

[leaden remnant]

stego with fast as hell swings would be horrible

[balmy pewter]

Um no actually I’ve tested it because I thought the same thing and it’s just something you need to figure out because it’s a new mechanic compared to the dinos we have

But nobody knows that because nobody knows how to play the Dino

[golden coral]

Not really, also side jab isn't that fast, nor is the swing (though apparently it's been changed, going to look at that)

[golden coral]

No, there's actual issues there

[balmy pewter]

Like what ?

[leaden remnant]

im not sayin it's quick ofc, im merely saying that, if it had fast as hell swings, it would take millenia to bring one down

[golden coral]

When you do a jab, the stego raises its tail for a few seconds after, for no reason, the running swing is aimed the opposite of all the others, and so on

Weird little things that happen, and some strange design choice in aiming

[leaden remnant]

but either way i go back to the shadows

[golden coral]

I don't want the attacks to be faster, I want all the jab angles equalized to the side jab. And the cooldown removed.

[leaden remnant]

i see

[golden coral]

Though I've been told the swing anim has been updated, though not heard anything on that

So need to go look at that one

[leaden remnant]

i have no idea if that's correct

i got a random stego around that i havent touched in weeks, so once the update goes live i can check it

i don't have the willpower to grow a stego right now

(dibbles)

[golden coral]

Fair! Can't blame you xD

[opaque vine]

So did you notice anything?

[golden coral]

Currently booting up, need to do the whole folder thing, then I'll see if I can find a server and test

Need to rebind every key too xD

[opaque vine]

RIP lol

[hasty coyote]

You do need a good omni group to deal with a lone stego, so don't think I'm saying like 3 omnis maul a stego. I'm saying that the clunkyness makes it a bit too difficult for stego to just be a stego imo. You can def have enough game knowledge and skill to be a major threat, but it shouldn't need that much skill to essentially swat a fly. Its similar how old carno had a good bit of clunkyness that made it hard to be an actually good carno. A good carno was still a major threat, but the amount of skill needed to overcome its weaknesses it had was too much. However, stego generally just needs some QOL and it should be fine until allo and rex throw its balance into the air again.

[balmy pewter]

The power swing should be the opposite it makes perfect sense and I’ve never had an issue with that and with the the small tail raise that could be a animation fix but again that never affected my ability to play and survive

[golden coral]

This should apply to any stage, right?

[golden coral]

... Okay, why does that make sense to you? Please explain that, cause Im honestly curious

Every other attack = where you look

[opaque vine]

Stages of growth? Yea

[golden coral]

Why then should one attack be the opposite?

[golden coral]

Okay, good, not growing to adult just to check, but I can spawn a tiny one and see :D

[hasty coyote]

Stego doesnt need any major buffs, it needs QOL (other than damage to stam to be removed/reworked and its stam costs looked at)

[hasty coyote]

and thats the exact thing I'm talking about. The fact yout have to put in all this effort to manage something thats just unintuitive is the jank I want removed.

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Various making it feel better and handle better overall, and be less clunky. Though I would argue upping the weight to help it survive vs the larger things would be good, rather than making it run funnily.

[hasty coyote]

I'd wait til those things come in to make sure it needs the weight, but I doubt its going to survive without it.

[balmy pewter]

In what world lol would you swing a power up charged up SWING in the same direction you are going … you would break you spine … and it would look TERRIBLE you would swing the way you are making room for …

[golden coral]

Yeah sure, wouldn't up the size for now, just for the future apexes

[golden coral]

So you're looking at it from what, a realism thing? Because if so I can kind of get it

[balmy pewter]

No im not lol

[golden coral]

But I feel like it makes more game sense to follow the standard set

You hit in the direction you look, no matter the attack, that makes the most sense to me at least

[golden coral]

Okay, well it kind of sounded like that since you mentioned breaking your spine and all xD

[opaque vine]

Realism isn’t really a good argument to make something feel bad and against your intuition, if your aiming for something then your swing should go in that direction

[balmy pewter]

The isle in alll its Dino put basic sense in all there movements lol it’s not rocket science

[golden coral]

But if every other attack goes where you look, then basic sense would say so should the new attack

[balmy pewter]

Thank god you ppl are not developing the game

well that’s enough brain rot for me today see ya ✌🏻

[golden coral]

Nah, it'd be better if I were xD

But that's what mods are for, luckily we're getting those in the future so

[hasty coyote]

I'm glad I am not developing it either, because at least my takes are only seen by a few people. If everyone had to see them and yelled at me to change them, I'd quit on the spot lol. I know I aint infallible, which is why I try to talk here and explain my position and see others so I can get a better picture. Though when people just insult and say skill issue and don't explain their side, its hard to believe them.

[golden coral]

@opaque vineOkay, looked at it. Looks exactly the same as from when the attack was first introduced to me? You stop, swing, remains standing there. Doesn't feel like its faster than what it used to be. So I'm not sure I see how they sped it up and then added a cooldown. Would probably have to look at old footage, because I honestly can't say the attack, either of the swings, feels faster than they used to be.

So unless it's a thing that changes with growth, I'm not noticing anything new or different with the attack anim from what I experienced way back when it was new

I'll go ask around, see if someone can confirm that it got changed or not

[opaque vine]

The fire speed of it is definitely faster while standing still compared to the previous swing. As for the last bit of animation (the “recovery” one) looks about the same speed

[opaque vine]

Yea it’s hard to tell when you’re small I guess

[golden coral]

Honestly not noticing anything even on the standing one

Looks like they always did to me at least

But it could be a matter of growth, maybe

[golden coral]

The whole "skill issue" argument is a very convinient excuse at times, or so it feels

[opaque vine]

Could you send me a clip if your still in game by any chance? I haven’t played stego in a hot minute

[golden coral]

I don't have any way to record I don't think

Could do a screenshot but that wouldn't help in this case xD

And mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong here, only that I dont notice anything that makes me go "oh, thats new"

But it could also be that I play stego so much that I just got used to it over time or something, but even when cooldown was introduced, I didn't think the anim itself got changed

Do you know if they changed it at that time, before, or after?

[opaque vine]

I can try and get a quick clip of the previous swing we had compared to this new swing

[golden coral]

Please do, if you don't mind the bother

[opaque vine]

I don’t mind, it’s gonna take a sec

@golden coral https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/iGfQrvHfyK4sfG86w/d13375hr4p9t?invite=cr-MSx0dG8sMjI0MzU2Njk2LA here, I use the regular swing first and then the new one.

[winged plinth]

Then they remake it

I honestly find the stego too strong, but not fun to play it's kinda hard

Gotta be a good player or a stego master to enjoy playing stegos but average players that don't play stegos mostly "like me" won't get along with current stegos

[winged plinth]

Doesn't it take a lot of stamina for a tail hit? Nah stegos need a rework if they want to survive in the future game

[opaque vine]

A rework seems a bit drastic

[golden coral]

Uh... I feel like we've talked past each other here. Are you comparing those two attacks? Cause yeah, the jab is really slow and clunky (aside from the side jab only, which is decent). The swing is fine, or was, but the cooldown is the issue there.

But I thought you meant they sped up the new swing and then added cooldown, but then there's been no changed in the anim, those are different attacks

[opaque vine]

What do you mean?

[hasty coyote]

Stego mainly needs an attack that is quick and light, it currently has essentially only heavy attacks.

[opaque vine]

Yea, I misunderstood

[golden coral]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. But it does show that the swing isn't that fast either, it's just more or less good speed, since part of it is to prep for another before you can attack again.

[golden coral]

More so that you got to be really good to make it work, but I doubt people enjoy it, since it still feels terrible to handle

[golden coral]

Hence, nerf damage but "speed up" the jab, and keep the swing for more power

[hasty coyote]

probably what it needs

[winged plinth]

Agree

[dusky surge]

it is wild to me that stego got a cooldown on powerswing but deino has no cooldown on lunge LMAO

[golden coral]

It's more strange that people honestly defend current stego, but it is what it is. Mods will fix it, at some point.

[dusky surge]

the trike/rex comparison is also just wild. just because it "isn't on the same level" doesn't mean it should for some reason have worse stamina? how does that make sense?

hell, we have it confirmed that trike very might well do MORE damage than stego, making the whole "well stego does a lot of damage" even more moot for why the power swing sucks so bad

[golden coral]

Well, if size means clunkyness, can you imagine how clunky a shant would be, or even rex/trike, being so much larger than stego

[dusky surge]

and it doesn't explain why deino gets to work fine

it's a lil janky, but overall its kit doesn't suck to use

despite being big like stego, it's nowhere near as clunky

[golden coral]

If stego has 3 sec cooldown, would something like 5-6 be good for trike and rex? Maybe 10 for shants cooldown? xD

Because if stego should be clunky and bad because 6T, then well, those are all way larger, so going by that logic

[dusky surge]

people will understand why rex can only bite once every 5 seconds, after all, it is very big

if it's okay with stego, it should be perfectly with other large animals

[golden coral]

It really should, especially if they do even more damage

[dusky surge]

OR we could make stego good and make EVERY animal fun :)

[golden coral]

No, that'd not be fun for everyone else apparently, so can't have that

I do honestly hope everyone who thinks current stego is fine, think it should be just as fine if it's applied to every large playable, preferably with increasing punishment due to well, increasing size and stats.

[dusky surge]

guarantee you the same opinion won't be shared if icons like rex and trike get this treatment

it's why their inclusion will be interesting, because then we have a metric with which to balance stego

and people can finally see stego for what it is outside of the vacuum it's in now

[golden coral]

Hopefully, at least

[fresh laurel]

deino casually basically one shotting anything that dares tries to get something needed for survival

https://tenor.com/view/suit-meme-gif-3154536417054843778

hate how lunge basically has no counterplay besides "pick a different water source bum"

[dusky surge]

no but stego can do it if you tried to fight it rather than by random ambush so its worse

[fresh laurel]

honestly, i can lie
i used to hate stego until i realized
every dino i play outruns it

[dusky surge]

every dino can easily escape it

[fresh laurel]

and stego now has to soon deal with other apexes while still getting meh changes
i dont think its gonna be equiped as of rn

[fresh laurel]

yup

[opaque vine]

#balance-feedback message @copper ridge there is more to a Herrera’s ambush than just a tree being available, Herrera’s pounce is already pretty situational and certain conditions have to be met for a successful hit.

• A high enough tree
• No impediments such as branches,leaves or other types of foliage
• Opponent must be stationary and not be moving around unpredictably.
• opponent must be within range/reach
• Herrera’s have to be in the right place at the right time
• opponent has to be completely unaware of your presence

[copper ridge]

You're overlooking the fact that herrera is a small, light dinosaur that doesn't take very long to grow, and can one-shot adult dilo, sub adult galli, sub adult cera etc. If it took longer then sure, but if you're going to play something that strong, I think it should be a little more limited.

[opaque vine]

Herrera takes 10 minutes less than a pachy to grow?

Not to mention that it’s useless and vulnerable for most of its life due to its slow speed. At sub adult it’s slower than a dibble lol

[copper ridge]

Your point? Pachy can't oneshot anything unless it's a baby
And slow doesn't mean much when you're not chasing anything and can retreat to a nearby tree as soon as anything spots you

[opaque vine]

Pachy can one shot herreras. Point is that it’s as fragile as it is dangerous, slow does mean much when you can’t get to the tree in time

[leaden remnant]

most things are useless and vulnerable for most of their life

[opaque vine]

no, most playables are fast during the sub stage with the exception being cerato,dibble and Herrera

[leaden remnant]

herrera can climb tho

herrera is the least vulnerable thing in the game

(in overall time spent being in serious danger)

[opaque vine]

Not really. Going “well it can climb” it’s just a one dimensional minded type argument

[leaden remnant]

it's really just it

[opaque vine]

It has to get food and water, and a tree isn’t always going to be 1 meter away from you

[leaden remnant]

^^

[opaque vine]

Herreras don’t spend most of their time in trees anymore

[leaden remnant]

takes 2-3 mins to get food and water, and, well, 45 km/h

[leaden remnant]

well crap that's a player thing

if im playing herrera im not going on the ground unless i need to eat or drink

im always on the rocks playing it safe

[opaque vine]

Omni, dilo and carno are all pretty much faster than it though

[leaden remnant]

that's 3 things

also add galli

4 things r faster than it

[opaque vine]

That argument could be used for anything though. I could go in a bush as a carno and be safe

[leaden remnant]

a bush is not as safe as a rock

i get killed in bushes, i dont get killed on rocks

[opaque vine]

Yea it’s 3 main predators? A cera dosent need to hunt herreras lol

[leaden remnant]

anything will kill a herrera given the chance

if anything is able to kill a ptera given the chance, they'll absolutely do it for herreras

[opaque vine]

Yea no, the chances of somebody finding you in the middle of the jungle in some random bush are non existent

[leaden remnant]

you'd be surprised

happened to me a buncha times that i got found in the middle of absolutely nowhere

[opaque vine]

Never happened to me idk what to say

[leaden remnant]

i see

2-3 minutes of the same danger any land animal is put under and then the rest in mostly safe conditions without any natural predators that can catch it on the trees is what makes it the safest playable rn

even tho it is true that a ton of herrera players are only playing it to kill other herreras, it's rare to die to another herrera cause you can see them from up there unlike from the ground

[opaque vine]

Not really the same. A raptor for example can tank a hit or two before running off, troodons are too small to be seen and other stuff can defend themselves

[leaden remnant]

yeah but that's not being safe tho

that's having the ability to survive an encounter in a dangerous environment

herreras get the privilege of not having that dangerous environment

[opaque vine]

What?

[leaden remnant]

you heard me

a raptor can surely tank a hit or two, but that doesn't mean it's safe

it means it can run away from an unsafe situation

[opaque vine]

It does

[leaden remnant]

no it doesn't

brb

[opaque vine]

Yea you got eyes and ears you can avoid the situation entirely. That’s not just a herrera thing

[opaque vine]

Alr

[copper ridge]

I can't believe you're trying to argue that herras are just as vulnerable when they can literally CLIMB ANYTHING AND AVOID DANGER COMPLETELY

Herras are the only dino you can completely afk and KNOW nothing will kill you

Because nothing else can get up there (at present)

[opaque vine]

I am. Having the ability to climb dosent take away from the fact that you have to reach the tree. A carno can blitz you before you even make it, an omni can knock u out of the tree, a dilo is fast enough to also catch it

Deinos can kill them when they come to drink etc

[obtuse ocean]

And canibals

[opaque vine]

True but how players use herrera is irrelevant since it’s not cannibalistic

[copper ridge]

Youre literally delusional

Like I have no idea what to say you're just wrong and the fact you cant see that is insane to me

[opaque vine]

Damn, calling me delusional over a silly argument? Alright alright

[obtuse ocean]

dont need to be, ppl kill for fun lol

[opaque vine]

Explain how I’m wrong instead of acting ignorant about it

[obtuse ocean]

Wait, cant u unlock that ? canibal ?

[copper ridge]

delusion
/dɪˈl(j)uːʒn/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions

A false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary

[opaque vine]

Just say that you’re unable to debunk my arguments

[copper ridge]

I was actually trying to say that calling someone delusional doesn't mean calling them mentally ill or anything

And I can debunk your arguments very easily

[opaque vine]

Go ahead

do it

[copper ridge]

Why? I'm not gonna change your mind it'd be a waste of my time and effort

[opaque vine]

lmao

[copper ridge]

You ever heard the phrase "dont feed the trolls"?

[leaden remnant]

he's right

a dilo isn't gonna catch you if you have a tree or a surface near you

and you shouldnt leave the safety as a herrera

youre gonna be in grave danger for less than 10 minutes in a session that's hours long

that's why herrera is the safest dino

[copper ridge]

Like I didnt even think about that statement before this it's just objective fact

[leaden remnant]

it's literally an objective fact, yes

[opaque vine]

If

[copper ridge]

And I know I said dont feed the trolls but for anyone else who is watching this unfold and is curious:
Let's use omni and carno as an example (these could be switched out I'm just doing this for ease of explanation. Also omni and herra are very similar speeds)

Here are omni's options when getting chased:

• Try to hide
• Swim away (if there's water)
• Jump on a rock (has to actually be a rock and be able to be jumped on) and hope the carno can't shimmy it's way on. Also have to hope the carno doesn't wait them out.

Here are herrera's options when getting chased:

• Try to hide
• Swim away (if there's water)
• Jump on a rock (has to actually be a rock) and hope the carno can't shimmy it's way on. Also have to hope the carno doesn't wait them out.
• Climb any nearby vertical surface where the carno cannot follow you (and potentially leap away using other vertical surfaces)

Even ignoring the fact that NOTHING can harm a herra while it's climbing, Omni has 3 options, herrera has 4. 4 is more than 3. Ergo: omni is more vulnerable.

[leaden remnant]

you always have one

it's like saying a deino won't have water near it

[opaque vine]

Yea but the distance matters. Will you be able to make it in time

[leaden remnant]

45 km/h, yes

a good surface is always seconds away

adn if you can't make it in time, your raptor agility will save you

[opaque vine]

Not always. I’ve been 4 meters away from a tree and my opponent was able to catch up

[leaden remnant]

what can i say except skill issue

or speedhack

[opaque vine]

Wdym by skill issues

[leaden remnant]

if you are 4m away from a tree you take less than a second to reach it

[opaque vine]

So does the dilo

[leaden remnant]

did you not see the dilo

[opaque vine]

Mate there’s no skill in pressing shift + W which is exactly what I did

[opaque vine]

No, but when I did it was too late

[leaden remnant]

with skill issue i mean skill to see the dilo

[leaden remnant]

well then skill issue

isnt herrera fault but your fault

[opaque vine]

Yea my fault. I should’ve used X-ray vision to see thru the big rock he was behind

Let me get u a clip rq

[leaden remnant]

if the tree was 4m away from you, you would've easily avoided it

[copper ridge]

You're missing the forest for the trees. Yes a herra can get caught by a dilo, or snatched by a deino, it's not invincible, we're not arguing that. But the point is so can everything else.

It's the fact that herra has the option to completely avoid damage and nothing else gets that luxury, hence why it's the least vulnerable dino (in its weight class)

[opaque vine]

Dilo is like 3 kmh faster than me

[leaden remnant]

only 3km/h

[opaque vine]

3 kmh is a lot

[leaden remnant]

it's nothing

[opaque vine]

You can tell urself that

[leaden remnant]

if the tree was really 4m away from you, you could've eaten breakfast and still had time to get on the tree

it takes less than a second, which is the time the dilo takes to turn in your direction, to get on the tree

that's why i claim it's a skill issue

[opaque vine]

Every other playable can do that to an extent

[copper ridge]

No they literally can't

[opaque vine]

He was facing my direction?

[leaden remnant]

how close was he

[opaque vine]

Yes they can. Every other playable has the option to hide themselves it’s not just a herrera thing

[leaden remnant]

elevated surfaces are the safest places

[copper ridge]

If youre gonna be like "oh prove it prove it" the least you can do is actually read it when I do

[opaque vine]

I was very close to the rock and he was on my tail

[leaden remnant]

do you have an estimate

[leaden remnant]

cant compare rocks to trees or trees to mountains

trees offer concealment and safety, mountains offer complete vision of what's around you, concealment and safety

[opaque vine]

Just give me a second, I’m gonna show u a clip of what I mean

[leaden remnant]

rocks offer safety from land animals that can't jump or get on it

[leaden remnant]

of course

[copper ridge]

This argument is so dumb it's not about how close the dilo was or how close the tree was or anything like that. It's the objective fact that if a herrera chooses, nothing can harm it. Nothing else gets that.

Except ptera which can fly away I suppose, if it has the stamina and is fast enough to take off

[leaden remnant]

only ptera gets the same privilege, and it takes a bit to take off and a horrendous amount of stam

if you're landing as a ptera you want stam

• herreras have ptera on their diet so pteras do have a natural predator that lives with them

[opaque vine]

This wasn’t even a fully grown carno mind u. Couldn’t have been more than 49 kmh in speed

[leaden remnant]

desync

the carno was about 42 km/h

[copper ridge]

You lived???? You literally didnt even die BECAUSE YOU GOT UP A TREE

[opaque vine]

Yea but it would’ve 100% connected if it was a fg carno

[copper ridge]

I feel like I'm losing my goddamn mind

[cosmic pelican]

Oh boy that ping

[opaque vine]

Mate that carno was like 18% just a juvi. Ofc I lived

[opaque vine]

Shhh

[copper ridge]

BECAUSE YOU GOT UP A TREE WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT

IF YOU WERE AN OMNI IT COULD HAVE KEPT CHASING YOU

I can't believe I'm wasting my Sunday night trying to explain that something that can literally not be chased or harmed is less vulnerable than something that can 😭

[opaque vine]

My point is that climbing up to a tree wouldn’t have been possible if that was a big carno, dilo or a omni

[copper ridge]

Im going insane I'm literally going insane someone put me out of my misery I cant believe this

Youre a troll, you're absolutely a troll

[opaque vine]

No

[copper ridge]

Im not wasting time on this anymore you damn troll

[opaque vine]

I’m just intellectually superior

[copper ridge]

LMAOOOOO

[leaden remnant]

with all due respect

[copper ridge]

Screenshot

[leaden remnant]

based on what you've said, i would doubt it

[opaque vine]

L

[opaque vine]

Doubt, how

[leaden remnant]

cause hear me out

[opaque vine]

Aight

[leaden remnant]

this man is going insane cause you cant comprehend the most basic facts about this game 😭

you're right, a fg carno would've killed you, but you could've easily dodged it

you went in the trajectory of the ram

[opaque vine]

Yea I get his point, climbing is a excellent escape option, not denying that but all I’m saying is that having that ability dosent make you invisible

[leaden remnant]

we never said it does make you invincible tho

[copper ridge]

I NEVER SAID THAT

[leaden remnant]

only that it makes you the safest dino by making you unreachable for everything that's not a ptera (pteras cant kill you) or cannibal herreras

[opaque vine]

Alright chill. My point is that having the climbing ability dosent mean that you can successfully evade danger 10/10 times

[leaden remnant]

we never said that 😭

[opaque vine]

He implied it

[leaden remnant]

it makes you able to successfully evade danger 9.5/10 times tho

[copper ridge]

I AM AGREEING WITH YOU YOU WALNUT

[leaden remnant]

not even close 😭

NOT EVEN CLOSE 😭

[opaque vine]

9.5/10 is reaching it

[cosmic pelican]