balance-feedback-discussion

[cosmic pelican]

especially beipi and dryo 😦

[orchid merlin]

Yes especially herrera

[leaden remnant]

they feel like complete worthless pieces of ass

[cosmic pelican]

hypsi at least has the option to troll the heck out of everything, and thats fun

[leaden remnant]

give herrera a 25 hour growth time with a diet drain of 6 minutes

[leaden remnant]

yes

[orchid merlin]

[leaden remnant]

only small tier that's actually worth it

[cosmic pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/tectone-facts-genshin-impact-genshinimpact-gif-21330993

[leaden remnant]

spawn and immediately cmon let's go have fun

[orchid merlin]

Buff beipis damadge🔥

[leaden remnant]

that's how all small tiers should be man

spawn and the game should be telling you "what are you doing you wasting time CMON GO HAVE FUN"

not "oh so you have chosen a small tier? yeah go commit self die"

[orchid merlin]

Remove troodon and omniraptors from the roster and turn them into AI that herrera’s can hunt

[leaden remnant]

ban this man

loopspawnkill all herreras

[cosmic pelican]

Again?

[leaden remnant]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOO

[orchid merlin]

[leaden remnant]

absolute trolling

[obtuse ocean]

Well depends on how good small tier is at killing big stuff, no need to play them if they die to a few small tiers lol

[leaden remnant]

yes no point in playing small tiers

spawn and everything holds you back

[cosmic pelican]

I mean, you can buff beipi all you want, but it will never kill an omni in a 1v1, that just wont happen

[leaden remnant]

"no you cant do this no you cant do that no you cant do thsi no you cant do that" for the love of everything that is holy LEMME DO SOMETHING

[orchid merlin]

It should be a threat to herrera’s imo

[leaden remnant]

aint it a threat already?

[cosmic pelican]

The only playable that could become problematic is troodon, since thats the only offense-oriented small tier. But even then its 1 shot, so eh

[orchid merlin]

Eh, they’re not that strong and got a horrible clunky alt

[leaden remnant]

welp

[cosmic pelican]

Im pretty sure herrera can just facetank it, thanks to its incredible bite speed

[orchid merlin]

Yea

[leaden remnant]

true

[orchid merlin]

Beipi should win a facetank

[cosmic pelican]

3 bites in 2 seconds and the beipi falls, not even enough time for it to finish 1 alt attack

[leaden remnant]

frickin machine gun bite like dilo

[orchid merlin]

I love herrera’s alt

[leaden remnant]

oml i hate when someone can just walk up to you and spam the living heck outta the bite

nom nom nom nom die mfer

[cosmic pelican]

I hate that it can 1 shot a troodon, like, just why...

[leaden remnant]

makes me want to punch the frickin dino from the screen

[orchid merlin]

Its 5x the size of troodon and should therefore be superior in every possible way

[orchid merlin]

Dilos gotta go

[cosmic pelican]

It shouldnt be a capable fighter on the ground, why does it need a 60dmg alt attack when it can delete half the roster in 1-2 jumps😭

[leaden remnant]

i hate dilos so much

[orchid merlin]

You better not be suggesting a herrera nerf…

[leaden remnant]

for some reason i agree with this

[cosmic pelican]

its only 2.91666 times bigger🤓

[obtuse ocean]

How would it else kill ? Like 2 jumps, you gonna tell the person to sit still cus you need one more jump

[leaden remnant]

delete herrera

[orchid merlin]

[leaden remnant]

remove herrera climb

[orchid merlin]

Wait actually? Herrera looks atleast 4x its size lol

[cosmic pelican]

If you get a good jump on something like a carno, it will have to sit down to avoid bleeding out, or losing almost all its blood, which in turn gives you another chance at jumping

[orchid merlin]

Remove omniraptors running abillity

[leaden remnant]

UHHHHHHHHHHH

[obtuse ocean]

Well carno i get, lol. Thats not a 1 shot. I was meaning small tiers, like omnis etc

[cosmic pelican]

I see

[leaden remnant]

ez 1 shot

[cosmic pelican]

simple math :p

[leaden remnant]

when you lose all your blood you gonna have fun getting your stam back

[orchid merlin]

Nah, the carno can just keep running and the bleed will eventually stop

[leaden remnant]

ive been below 10% blood seeing my stam go up 0.01% per second

[orchid merlin]

Pain

[cosmic pelican]

arent you mr.herrera😭

[leaden remnant]

but i get it cause below 10% blood 👍

i just dont get 3 mins stam regen with thresholds wtf is that

one thing or the other not both

[obtuse ocean]

Do we get any other climbing dinos ?

[cosmic pelican]

hypsi

[leaden remnant]

hypsi gonna get climbing

[frail bobcat]

hypsi+

[obtuse ocean]

nice

[leaden remnant]

at some point

[cosmic pelican]

and maybe ptera, but dont quote me

[obtuse ocean]

I was really suprise by the climbing they did, it actually worked

[orchid merlin]

I am. A pounce from max height deals around 75% of the carnos blood if it keeps running non stop

The carno will live

[cosmic pelican]

Its still gonna want to sit down though, running around at 25% blood is not a good idea

[orchid merlin]

@mods. Missinformation!!!!

[obtuse ocean]

Im new to Herrera, i always get stunned when i jump. Is that always or cus im to high up ?

[orchid merlin]

Do you use a specific mutation that reduces fall damadge?

[orchid merlin]

Yea but just run away from the hotspot and you’ll be good to go. + the tracking system is trash

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i think i use that 15% reduction or something ?

I jump and then lay flat for a sec or two

[cosmic pelican]

I know youve killed plenty of carnos, dont be so humble

[orchid merlin]

Yea so basically you went over the normal limit. The Herrera does the animation because you went over the bone breaking height. That mutation isn’t good on Herrera

[orchid merlin]

😭

[obtuse ocean]

ahh! i tho it was a must have lol

[dusky surge]

funny news about what dondi just confirmed is next hordetest

[iron valve]

I tried to play with my friends from Cerato, they killed us, I had to wait for the counter to go off, it went off and they killed me again. I know that this is to avoid kill revenge, but they should reduce the counter to 5 or 3 minutes because it is very boring to have to wait in que and the death counter still exists.

[leaden remnant]

what is it?

[dusky surge]

troodon, cera, carno, all getting changes, alongside NV and map

[leaden remnant]

🔥 🎉

did he mention which changes?

also which changes is the map getting

[cosmic pelican]

Cant wait for the troodon nerf

[dusky surge]

changes we know
cerato: bile is being made weight-dependent. No more juvis causing full adults to puke, less big game hunting, FAR better bully against smalls like omni or dilo. Also seems to be more favoured against carno, somehow
carno: smaller, and being made into a true plains hunter nightmare. Likely going to be a proper pursuit
troodon: unknown

[leaden remnant]

alr let's see how it goes then

[cosmic pelican]

God please make the venom actually have a negative effect for the prey🙏

[orchid merlin]

Will carno get a better turn radius

[dusky surge]

who knows

if i didnt put it on the list, i dont know

[golden coral]

Being that it's rather small now, I wonder if the bleed multipliers or what it is will be changed too

[orchid merlin]

Ye ye, I missed most of the stream that’s why I’m wondering

[golden coral]

Otherwise there's not much blood for carno to use

[alpine plover]

I was scrolling through old posts and damn the Mr woke canni guy really downvotes anything that improves a herbi playable

[dusky surge]

ikr its actually hysterical

[mint star]

as it turns out, he’s muted

in fact, his last message was 5 months ago

[distant torrent]

mans a hardcore carnivore elitist until the very end

[obsidian holly]

Like troodon venom?

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

i cannot believe im anti-deino nerf in this scenario but i must stand against this

[shell crag]

Right click simulator
Not realistic power

[dusky surge]

most dinosaurs are right click simulator

[shell crag]

Say one

[dusky surge]

raptor lol

[shell crag]

They need to bite too

[dusky surge]

depends on the prey (like with deino)

[shell crag]

Yesterday i was fighting using juve cera vs raptors, they needed to bite a lot

[dusky surge]

herrera also rarely ever bites

[shell crag]

Deino can grab and one shot everything

Except stego

[dusky surge]

it can grab stego too technically LMAO

[shell crag]

Nop

Stego is 4500 tons, it can only grab like 400

[dusky surge]

it can. deino can grab up to 75% of its weight (6 tons) if the prey is swimming

[shell crag]

Kg*

[shell crag]

You need to be rlly dumb to

[dusky surge]

it can still do it

[shell crag]

They Bite sometimes

When I fight using juve or baby, they Bite

[dusky surge]

so does deino lmao

[shell crag]

When?

They just need to grab and go to water there is no fight brother

[dusky surge]

in brawls with other deinos, in fights with stegos, while younger, when attempting to defend itself

[dusky surge]

herrera just needs to pounce and go to trees

[shell crag]

I rarely see deinos killing selves, stegos are rare and they can still grab them like you said and younger does not count

[dusky surge]

what exactly does reducing its lunge range do anyway besides entirely screw over deino

[shell crag]

Why ?

It can still bite and do a pretty huge damage and 2,5 will only make he cant grab dibble

[dusky surge]

which is currently one of its most reliable forms of food

and besides, it's not like diablo is really suffering from how many predators it has. deino is its only true threat

[shell crag]

He can eat fishs

[shell crag]

They adding rex soon

Dibble will have a good motive to run

[dusky surge]

"he can eat fish" justifying making the animal FAR worse at its one job is hysterical

[shell crag]

Why ?

[dusky surge]

rex can eat boar. Therefor, it should not kill diablo with its crush move.

[shell crag]

He semi aquatic anyways

[shell crag]

Boar is like a ant to rex

[dusky surge]

fish is like an ant to deino

[shell crag]

Bro

[dusky surge]

the fish and boars weight are around the same lmao

[shell crag]

Elite fish is pretty big

[dusky surge]

boar is pretty big

around the size of an elite fish

[shell crag]

Yeah but rex is supposed to be bigger and waste way more energy ( starve faster ) than deino bro

And fish is easier to find than boar

[dusky surge]

yes. rex is also faster on land and doesn't rely on a single ambush to do all of its hunting

deino doesn't get a second chance if it misses the lunge. it just loses a meal.

making deino completely incapable of hunting animals like allosaurus, diabloceratops or any midtier or up is just bizarre balancing

[shell crag]

It's really hard for him to miss and if he misses, just a bad player

And probably rex gonna be pretty slow bc of its giant size

[shell crag]

No ?

[dusky surge]

in streams, it's absolutely not slow. last stream, it was over 2x faster than deino is on land

[shell crag]

Allo is probably going to be around the size of an cera

[dusky surge]

it's 3 tons brother

[shell crag]

Deino is so slow bro

[dusky surge]

okay. rex was only around 1-4km/hr slower than a cerato, if that's any metric

[shell crag]

Deino can still bite, remember ?
You said he use bites

[dusky surge]

you can counter deino by drinking at shallow spots, drinking at isolated lakes, getting specific mutations, or paying attention. if you can't do all that, grabby grab time

[shell crag]

Pretty slow

[dusky surge]

tank the bites and walk away lol

[shell crag]

Deino is like 2-3 shots

[dusky surge]

no it isn't

[shell crag]

And if you get the allo

You will probably get him drinking

Or swimming

[dusky surge]

and he'll turn around and leave LMAO

[shell crag]

You will wait it turn around

Yeah

[dusky surge]

3 tons = 3000HP

deino does 500 damage per bite

diablo takes 0.25x damage to the head (where deino will be attacking from)

it takes around 24 bites from deino to kill diablo

it needs to lunge to have a chance

[shell crag]

It still does not make any sense deino be this strong

If dibble rlly needed a hunter

They could just debuff him

[dusky surge]

okay or just keep deino as-is because who cares

[shell crag]

This game is supposed to be at least a bit realistic

[dusky surge]

no not at all

[shell crag]

No

Bro where did you get these numbers from

[dusky surge]

from... the game? I worked as QA? I know how it works

you saying "no" doesn't make the numbers less true

[shell crag]

Okay ? So ur deino gonna stay there

[dusky surge]

what

[shell crag]

Bitting dibble's head

[dusky surge]

or the diablo will leave because why would it stay and deino gets nothing

aka diablo is entirely immune to a creature over 2x its size

[shell crag]

Or you could just like... Go by his side?

[dusky surge]

HOW

[shell crag]

A lake or a river

[dusky surge]

diablo has strafing, and deino has the worst turn radius and land speed possible

[shell crag]

You can just go by the side when leaving water

[dusky surge]

okay so now you need 6 bites

and the diablo can STILL walk away

i want you to try and kill a diablo with bites in a normal server, send me a video of you actually doing it, and I'll concede and say you were right

[shell crag]

In official server ?

[dusky surge]

sure, why not

[shell crag]

Stopped playing it

Community servers just better

[dusky surge]

then do it in a community server idc

if you can do it AT ALL, that's insane

requires a diablo literally asking to die for that to happen

[shell crag]

Naah

Maybe tomorrow if I play the Isle and get a friend to help me with that

[dusky surge]

since when were friends a part of this equation LMAO

this is a 1v1 situation

if a deino can't kill an animal literally less than half its size solo, that's hysterical

[shell crag]

We can just see if the dibble can rin

[shell crag]

Well in reality probably not

But it's a non realistic game

[dusky surge]

yea. it's a not realistic game. that's why deino can pick up diablo and drag it to its doom

[shell crag]

Yeah
Completely remove deinou should be a good one too

[dusky surge]

why lol

[shell crag]

a 4 ton dino to a 8ton one is a big jump

Deino feels invencible without another deino to kill it

[dusky surge]

that's true. but it'd still be unkillable if it couldn't grab diablo

[shell crag]

Just wanted game a bite more realistic

[shell crag]

They could just remove him until rex and trike comes and release they all together

Apex expansion

[dusky surge]

then why not ask for diablo to be reduced to 1.5 tons like it was realistically :P

and then deino would still grab it

[shell crag]

I asked it too

And asked to fix dibble broken range

Some days ago

Gonna try to get some sleep rn, good night for u bro

[wet coral]

I just think that's it's real bitter to have grown a dino for over three hours just to be, essentially instakilled by a deino

[golden coral]

@acoustic temple Carno is getting a rework, becoming smaller (1300kg), but apparently also making the charge cost much less stam and have no cooldown. And there may be other changes as well.

[simple karma]

Guys I have a question about the enlarged meniscus mutation, let's see if anybody has the answer; when it comes to the fall damage calculation, does this mutation also reduce the fall damage due to the threshold increase to start receiving fall damage, or as soon as you fall the limit distance before getting damaged, the damage itself gets calculated by the total height regardless of the mutation?

[hasty coyote]

I know for Herrera, it functionally acts like an increased threshold (but you will still stun yourself if you fall from normal leg break height) I don’t know it’s that’s because Herrera has special fall damage calculation or not though.

[leaden remnant]

i absolutely agree with this

[lunar jetty]

@distant torrent

tell me why a diablo shouldnt get nerfed

go ahead.

[distant torrent]

just have an issue with the cant stun above 2 tons thing

its 3 tons. it should be able to stun its own body weight (or slightly more depending on how its future interactions with allo will go and what allo’s size will be)

[lunar jetty]

WHAT DOES ALLO HAVE TO DO WITH IT SOLOING ALL THE OTHER DINOSAURES

DIABLO CAN STUN A 6.5 TON WEIGH BEAST

AND KNOCK OVER 4.5 TONS

IT HAS MORE HP THEN 2 TENONS COMBINED

AND ITS BLOCK REMOVE 100% OF THE INCOMING DMG

[lunar jetty]

bro, only deionsuchus and stego weigh over 2 tons

[distant torrent]

allo is likely going to be faster than dibble (or herds of them will be able to chase down solo dibbles if they aren’t faster)

it shouldn’t be able to current stun things that big like it does now, but nerfing its stun to not stun above roughly 67% of its body weight won’t make the cut. it needs to stun roughly around the same body weight or below

[lunar jetty]

your saying that diablo needs to nerf?

[distant torrent]

as for the block, last I heard it was 1/8th damage

[lunar jetty]

thats 80% less dmg

https://tenor.com/view/kaperoo-evrima-the-isle-diabloceratops-diablogang-gif-15758602706285420255

[distant torrent]

yea a more fair stun and not overnerfed stun

[lunar jetty]

look on how they make the stego fall

how is that a balanced dinosaur

the stego's attack is getting stopped cause the stun

[distant torrent]

I don’t think anyone is defending that

[hasty coyote]

a lot of that is slightly wrong
stego is only 6 tons
teno has 1.6k hp, so its slightly under 2x teno's hp (3.2k compared to 3k)
block reduces damage to 1/8th

While yes, diablo v stego needs to be looked at, the nerf you're suggesting is overkill

[lunar jetty]

so diablo needs to nerf?

[lunar jetty]

tell me what kind of nerf it needs to have

it does 2 times more dmg then a fully grown tenon's claw attack

[distant torrent]

well it is slower so it can’t exactly run from the current carnivore roster (aside from land deino)

slower paired with hitting harder just makes sense

[lunar jetty]

what kind of nerf does it need.

[distant torrent]

this ^

[lunar jetty]

so it can stun anything but a stego a deionsuchus?

great idea, I have to grow a 6 hour dino saur just to not get stunned

[distant torrent]

of the current roster, yes. it’d still be like that with your current 2 ton or below nerf. nothing aside from dibble, deino, and stego weights more than 2 tons right now

it’s going to desperately need the stun when allo and other carnivores around the same size are added because I just don’t see dibble outrunning them without major balance issues popping up

[lunar jetty]

diablo is just to over powered, I dont know whats your point. it ruins the entire eco system. waiting 7 months just for them to nerf diablo's stage in the eco system is not good. what about tenon, omni, cera, and all the other dinosaures? they have to get killed on sight by some dibbel cause they aint a stego or a deino

[hasty coyote]

yes, but not major nerfs.
Personally, here is what I would like changed on diablo:

nerf its agility slightly, mainly drift (which seems to be already planned)
Make its damage negation have a cap, something along the lines of regular head modifier being able to block up to 250 damage from a single attack and block having a cap of like 500.
Nerf its knockdown/stun ranges on the sprint attack to 3 tons and 4.5 tons respectively.
Keep the current stun ranges for its heavy attack.
make its alt attack have the same stun ranges as the sprint attack.

That way it still has a lot of its power, but can't bully stegos as easily and has more openings for smaller targets,

[lunar jetty]

the people are going to die before they get a chance to escape the diablos

[lunar jetty]

your not making any changes, it can still stun and knock over anything but a stego and a deinooo

😭

[distant torrent]

all of those are faster than a dibble.. lol

[lunar jetty]

how do you know a diablo wont sneak up behind you and you get killed on sight

you know how many times people thought "oh yea its a hebrivore and am a tenon it wont kill me on sight"

it just removed half of your hp in 1 go

[distant torrent]

you should be able to hear the stomps of a 3 ton creature (if you can’t, then it’s a bug and not intended)

[lunar jetty]

why should I RUN FROM MY SPOT CAUSE OF 1 DINOSAUR

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEFEND MYSELF

[hasty coyote]

yes, which are the only things it shouldn't stun. It should be able to maul most of our current roster because they are all both much faster and much smaller than diablo. Saying diablo shouldn't flip a carno is worse than saying teno shouldn't flip a cera.

[distant torrent]

because it’s bigger than you. if you apply the same logic to rex, then I guess rex needs to be mega nerfed so smaller dinos don’t need to move lol

[obtuse ocean]

Its supose to be op with current rooster, but it should not even consider going for a stego. That should change

[lunar jetty]

ITS NOT! 2 TENONS SHOULD SOLO A DIBBEL

AS A MATTER OF FACT, 3 SHOULD

[obtuse ocean]

Why ?

[robust jay]

3 tenos prob could kill a solo dibble

[hasty coyote]

Because the dinosaur is bigger than you?

[distant torrent]

why should tenos solo a dibble they have no business fighting?

[robust jay]

Tenos kick does some crazy damage

[lunar jetty]

they weigh 1600 kg, they're slam does 345 dmg and they are 2

[lunar jetty]

DIBBELS KOS ME ALL THE TIME

FOR FUN

[distant torrent]

slam is 150 unless it was changed iirc

[hasty coyote]

tail slam got mega nerfed, it deals less than 200 now iirc

[lunar jetty]

KILL ON SIGHT YOU KNOW ??????

[lunar jetty]

wait fr?

[hasty coyote]

everything kills everything

[obtuse ocean]

Ur still fighting something twice ur size more or less, and its a defensive guy, its supose to be hard to kill

[lunar jetty]

tenon sucks bruh

[robust jay]

Yeah it got nerfed

[lunar jetty]

why am I playing it now

[hasty coyote]

yeah a while ago

[lunar jetty]

2 hours for nothing

[robust jay]

It’s kick is still amazing tho

[distant torrent]

yea teno does suck in the tail damage department.

[lunar jetty]

they should buff tenon

[distant torrent]

I agree

[lunar jetty]

2 hours? for that?

like cmon

[robust jay]

I mean it did need a nerf in my opinion but now it feels too weak for its tail slam

[hasty coyote]

because its still a good dino. its able to avoid things it can't fight, and is still able to bully things it can fight

[lunar jetty]

2 ceras solo it

tenon tail is as big as a cera, how does it do that amount of dmg

[distant torrent]

it’s slightly faster than cera and I think has more stam. only issue is the speed mutations that can make cera faster

[robust jay]

Well cera is a very good dinosaur and it’s the same size as teno so a teno dying to 2 ceras is very reasonable

[distant torrent]

so you’re just screwed if you don’t pick speed mutations

[lunar jetty]

deionsuchus.

over all a tenon can solo 1 cera easily

BUT A CERA WEIGHS MORE THEN A TENON

[hasty coyote]

1: thats a 2v1 against similar sized threats, its going to be a rough fight
2: teno can outrun them
3: its still a winnable fight depending on your skill, the ceras skill, and the terrain.

[distant torrent]

cera is 1300 and teno is 1600

[lunar jetty]

HOW IS THAT GOOD

[lunar jetty]

cera is 1800?

[robust jay]

Close enough, didn’t know the exact weight

[hasty coyote]

carno is 1800

[distant torrent]

cera is 1300

[hasty coyote]

carno aint 1800 for long tho, but currently it is

[lunar jetty]

tenon should be able to knock over a carno

carno has no arms,

[distant torrent]

this is carno’s new upcoming weight

[lunar jetty]

and its only 200 kg more

[lunar jetty]

SAY ON GOD

THATS EPICCCCCCC

tenon shouldnt be buffed if thats the case

[obtuse ocean]

Ur trying to put logic in? If so carno would litterly one shot a teno lol

[hasty coyote]

it already deals a good chunk of damage with tail slam and kicks

[robust jay]

Rip carno lol

[lunar jetty]

it does not

[lunar jetty]

its tail size is fricking unrealistic to the dmg

[distant torrent]

it’s going to get other changes at least lol

better small game hunter

[robust jay]

Kicks do a lot of damage wdym

[lunar jetty]

the tail is hugeeeeeeee

[lunar jetty]

it does the same amount of dmg to slam no?

[robust jay]

No

[distant torrent]

250 for kick

[robust jay]

Kicks do more

[lunar jetty]

they should release the new balance updates faster

diablo is gonna get nerfed, am 10000009000000000000000000000000% sure

[obtuse ocean]

Hope not

[robust jay]

I mean I hope is does, and I’m saying this as a dibble player lol

[lunar jetty]

why not

[distant torrent]

they gotta let updates cook or we might get hidden issues and bugs

[lunar jetty]

am saying it as a tenon player

[robust jay]

It doesn’t need to be 3 tons lol

[lunar jetty]

it needs to weigh 2 tons

tenon is as big as a diablo

[robust jay]

Not only was dibble not 3 tons irl, but it’s also just unnecessary

[obtuse ocean]

Cus its supose to be strong, its big compering to others. Only nerf it should get is to fighting something as big as stego

[lunar jetty]

ARE YOU GOOD?

[robust jay]

It’s supposed to knock things over bigger than itself already.

[lunar jetty]

DIABLO ISNT EVEN THAT BIG IN REAL LIFE

[robust jay]

Exactly

[lunar jetty]

DIABLO IS TWICE AS SMALL AS A TRICE

IT GETS DESTROYED BY A T-REX

[obtuse ocean]

I dont even know why you are taking real life in, like non of these animals even lived at the same time lol

[lunar jetty]

IT SHOULD WEIGH 1.6 TONS

[lunar jetty]

tenon lived at that time

t-rex did, spino did.

trice did

proto did not

[lunar jetty]

tell me how a 6 ton beast gets stunned by a diablo

[obtuse ocean]

what, most of the stuff they gonna add in this game did not co exsist.

[lunar jetty]

https://tenor.com/view/kaperoo-evrima-the-isle-diabloceratops-diablogang-gif-15758602706285420255

[obtuse ocean]

It shouldt get stunned by a diablo, i agree on that

[lunar jetty]

that STEGO is getting knocked over, LOOK HOW BIG THE STEGO IS COMPARED TO THE DIABLO

[robust jay]

Agreed

[lunar jetty]

it ends up dying

[robust jay]

They did fix dibble being able to push down a fg steg btw

[stark knoll]

There's 20 million years separating teno and diablo, and another 20 million separating diablo and rex

[obtuse ocean]

I loved diablo in legacy , it was hell for small to take down. But it was not the best vs larger stuff

[robust jay]

But they still get stunned

[lunar jetty]

COOL

[obtuse ocean]

I even think we humans are closer to stego then rex was

[lunar jetty]

you good?

[obtuse ocean]

In years

[stark knoll]

We're closer to rex

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, or other way around lol

[lunar jetty]

what are the chances you get a developer to speak with us since all of them are online 😭

I wan't to hear they're thoughts on diabloceratops

[distant torrent]

#isle-discussion message they occasionally talk in the discussion channel

[leaden remnant]

3 tenos can kill a dibble

[leaden remnant]

strong doesnt mean absolutely frickin crazy tho

good bunch of things are strong rn

however not straight up op

in a list of strong, could use tweaks, overtuned, op, the only thing that's genuinely op is dibble

way way way too much power

[halcyon torrent]

I feel like full-grown diablo stunning a stego that's 4 tons is fine (have a 100 pound guy charge a 200 pound guy at 50+mph. It's not the best example I know, but first of the top of my head.) But a full-grown stego shouldn't be. I get how it can upset people, but stego has been basically untouchable unless they're attacking 3 full-grown Deino in the water or another stego. It is nice to have something to actually stand against it. However, I do agree that Diablo could use a nerf to like stamina or something. Maybe it throwing itself around drains more or something because it IS a big ol tubby potato. I just don't Pachy situation where it goes from being overused to extinct.

[obtuse ocean]

Strong against what ? If u talking about stego yea

[golden coral]

Diablo being strong vs most things I think? It's pretty much what people think stego is, and overall more powerful than stego.

[leaden remnant]

against everything

[obtuse ocean]

vs the current rooster it should, but not vs stego agree on that

[leaden remnant]

dibble shouldn't be a walking meat bag imo

but it also shouldn't be able to commit the amount of murder it does right now

a genuinely good dibble is unkillable

throw 6 frickin ceras he will not die

[obtuse ocean]

So its about you cant kill it ? Or it runs you down as something lol

[leaden remnant]

too complicated to fight it

and trust me i have very high standards

[obtuse ocean]

Its a defensive guy, its supsoe to be hard to kill.

[leaden remnant]

but this surpasses the line in my opinion

[leaden remnant]

oh absolutely adn i agree with it

i don't want it to be a walking piece of trash yknow

i want it to be strong, defensive, an oversized bull on steroids with a bad temper

but i believe it went way too far

slide 270 degrees in a milisecond, etc

[obtuse ocean]

I mean, with current rooster i get your point. But it will be more stuff added, it can be very bad vs larger stuff

but good vs small etc

[leaden remnant]

yup

im not sure how it will do, i just don't think adding "pre-buffs" is a good idea

buff it when it has to be buffed, aka when the thing that it needs to stand a chance against is in the game

i must say tho

bad dibbles get absolutely obliterated specially by raptors

however that scares me is good dibbles. good players overall are very difficult to kill as practically everything, but with dibble... it's an ultimate warmachine

keep it at 2-1.5 tons till allo/rex/wahtever dondi was talking about comes

after that do the thing

and slide... i'd take it away and give it good agility

[lunar jetty]

Can't

[leaden remnant]

i mean

they can

it's just not really easy yknow

but hell 2 good tenos are enough against a mediocre dibble

[lunar jetty]

cause diablo is way to fricking over powered

[leaden remnant]

i agree

[obtuse ocean]

Yea thats fair, im bad. I got obliterated by raptors 100% deserved. But i also took out a dibble with zero braincells with 3 carnos, even tho the dibble was incredible good lol

[leaden remnant]

me and an extremely good carno player managed to kill a good dibble by ourselves, with me not being extremely good, just good

however the way to do it was literally tank a knockdown so your friend could absolutely obliterate the dibble

strange way to do it

also good to know that you actually take some accountability lmao, instead of saying "raptors are awfully op" you say "yup i suck"

[halcyon torrent]

Carno is insanely good. I don't understand how people struggle with it.

[leaden remnant]

carno is pretty good indeed even without the ram

struggling as a carno is complicated imo

[obtuse ocean]

Problem is that we won by just numbers, hit and run zero brain used. I want skill to win not pure numbers.

[leaden remnant]

anyways fellas i go now, been a pleasure

[obtuse ocean]

cya

[halcyon torrent]

Hit and run dino number 1, Carno. Sure, an omni is more agile, but not nearly as fast.

[golden coral]

Well, at some point attrition will win out

[obtuse ocean]

Carno is crap atleast vs smaller tiers lol

[obtuse ocean]

At some point yes, but i hope a rex can slaughte 10 allos. But also loose to 5 if u get my point

[halcyon torrent]

What? Bro, just ram and bite or bite and run to give distance. I've slaughtered as Carno, it's easy, you just can't ONLY rely on ram like people were.

[golden coral]

I do, yes

[halcyon torrent]

It's the fastest dino beside the Gali with a great bite.

[golden coral]

Rather can't really rely on charge at all, but that's about to change

[obtuse ocean]

I mean i think its fun to have a carno chasing me as omni, its fun to see when he gives up. Im not a good player either

[halcyon torrent]

I use it in the first pass as a surprise and take out 1 or 2 but I get what you mean.

[golden coral]

You can use it, but last I checked, it's a heavy cooldown + really harsh stam drain if you run for more than a moment or two. Which you currently need to do to get the knockdown. So yeah, it's not ideal, useable for instant extra damage, sure, but not really as good as it could be I'd say.

But we're getting changes, including carno downsize

So we'll have to wait and see how it goes

[cedar beacon]

I like that they improve charge soon

[halcyon torrent]

Ye

[cedar beacon]

and that herbivores like Diablo and stego are vurnable at night
soon

[golden coral]

Hopefully not too bad, or we'll be back to just logging at night

[obtuse ocean]

I dont think stego will care about carnos

[golden coral]

No idea why people would want any playable to be more or less unplayable at day or night

[halcyon torrent]

I think Carno is just hard to balance reasonably. It's a fast, heavy, strong biter. I think the best way to balance the charge is kinda make it like the Charger from L4D in a way. Don't make it cost an ungodly stam, keep it agile, but when it's charging, it loses a large amount of agility (turn) and has a recharge time to charge again.

But at the end of the day, when Allo drops, carno is cooked. No longer biggest carnivore, and no longer biggest bite, etc.

[cedar beacon]

I hope that Diablos and stegos will be vurnable during some weather conditions at night or
during twilights and not the whole night tbh.

[golden coral]

Isn't that kind of how it currently works?

[obtuse ocean]

I mean allo will prob not be a threat to carno,its to fast. Carno is supose to be good vs small tier im guessing.

[golden coral]

Again, it'll only lead to people logging or hiding away, rather than playing, which I don't really see as a good thing

Why would you bother playing if you're just a sitting duck

Either log, come back in 20 min, or just find the most out of the way spot/corner to shove yourself into and wait there

[halcyon torrent]

Nah the stam drain is insane and has a bit of a wind up.

[cedar beacon]

Isnt it how the New NV should work?

[golden coral]

Why would you want a playable to have an NV that makes them not play?

I'm not sure I understand why people want there to be any playable with such a bad NV that the best option is to just shove yourself into a crevice and then afk for the night

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

its amazing to me that diablo is what it took for people to realise that, wow, stego is not that great

diablo is everything stego was claimed to be, but its actually that

@lunar jetty stego doesn't weigh 6.5 tons

it weighs 6 tons

[lunar jetty]

idgaf

I changed it

there ya go

[shell crag]

Diablo be weaker is not gonna make stego better

stego still easy to avoid

[alpine plover]

That is true

[lunar jetty]

stego is supposed to be diablo in terms of strength and diablo is supposed to be an allo in terms of strength

[lunar jetty]

my boy, stego aint ment to fight

[dusky surge]

WHAT

[lunar jetty]

its ment to defend

[dusky surge]

???

That's fighting

[lunar jetty]

well yea

[shell crag]

so he rlly bad at defending

[dusky surge]

Stego fights

It's also really bad at it, as noob said lmao

[lunar jetty]

he 2 shots a dibbel but he cant hit a dibbel

[dusky surge]

Its stam and cooldown make it have absolutely zero pressure in a fight

[lunar jetty]

https://tenor.com/view/kaperoo-evrima-the-isle-diabloceratops-diablogang-gif-15758602706285420255

[shell crag]

dibble is op too but

[lunar jetty]

I feel bad for that stego

[shell crag]

stego just have giant cooldown

[lunar jetty]

cause it 2 shots a diablo

[lunar jetty]

dont miss your shots bro

[dusky surge]

It's funny, stego was one of the only animals that could actually stand against diablo when it got its power swing, then it got turbo nerfed

[shell crag]

if you hit it

[lunar jetty]

you cant, cause diablo stuns you before you ca n

[dusky surge]

If it hits to the head? Nope. And most hits will go into the head when fighting a diablo as stego

[shell crag]

try using a stego

[lunar jetty]

diablo takes no dmg from a stego if it manages to block the attack in time

[shell crag]

just see its attack cooldown
its ridiculous

[lunar jetty]

I did, my sub-adult one died to a diablo

[dusky surge]

doesnt even need to block

[shell crag]

you hit and wait 5s to hit again while cerato do like 1bite per sec

[lunar jetty]

cerato gets 1 shotted, you just have a massive MASSIVE skill issue.

[shell crag]

makes sense

a sub die to a fg

[lunar jetty]

I weighed 4.5 tons

[dusky surge]

cerato can one-shot omni with zero stamina needed. weird comparison

[lunar jetty]

a deionsuchus cant grab that

[shell crag]

only dino deino cant grab
hope they add more non grabbeable mods

[shell crag]

creatures*
my brain is dying

[lunar jetty]

well, deionsuchus wont get nerfed.

[shell crag]

hope it get

[lunar jetty]

it wont cause its good rn

[dusky surge]

stego def needs buffs atm. its in a godawful state with how overnerfed it got (because diablo, cera and omni players, the strongest animals in the game right now, complained about it)

[shell crag]

and hope they buff stego
no way im gonna waste 10h for such a slow dino

[lunar jetty]

diablo needs nerf thats all

[dusky surge]

nah. only nerf diablo needs is not being able to stun stego. otherwise, it's fine

[shell crag]

deino does oneshot too and its so much easier to hit

[lunar jetty]

why would you grow a 10 hour dinosaur if your not skilled

[lunar jetty]

wdym, you saw its dmg?

[lunar jetty]

why the f1ck does it weigh 3 tons

a tenon is as big as it

[dusky surge]

because the devs need it to weigh 3 tons

also it dwarfs tenonto, what are you on about

[lunar jetty]

for what, they live in herds

[shell crag]

you need to play something to get skilled and stego still bad
u said u died to dibbles
ur not skilled and crying for it

[lunar jetty]

what does tenon take 2 hours to grow then

[dusky surge]

because diablo takes 4

[lunar jetty]

3

[dusky surge]

pretty sure it's been 4 since hordetest

it was 4 hours even when it weighed 1.5 tons lmao

[shell crag]

its just sad need to grow for 6 hours ( 10 without diet ) for a bad dino

[lunar jetty]

ITS 3 HOURS GO CHECK

[shell crag]

it does not even make sense a strong creature like stego should have a fast attack

[lunar jetty]

AM GLAD CARNO GETTING NERFED

[shell crag]

strong tail

[dusky surge]

check... what? Last I played, it was 4 hours, and it hasn't been changed since

[dusky surge]

it's getting many buffs

[shell crag]

im sad carno getting nerfed, for me he was just fine
i dont like so much playing carno but for me he was just fine

[lunar jetty]

they nerfing carno's weigh to be 1300 kg-

[dusky surge]

and buffing it in many other ways

charge costs basically no stam, removal of charge cooldown, an apparent speed increase, and some other buffs we don't know yet

[shell crag]

looks good

[dusky surge]

people who think carno is getting nerfed are in for a rude awakening

it's getting retooled to actually be a good small game plains hunter

its power against any small creature found wandering the plains is going to be insane. Nearly impossible to escape

[shell crag]

idk i though carno was fine with is 1.800kg, yesterday i almost killed 2 fg with a single sub cera

[dusky surge]

(that's because carno sucks atm)

that's why its getting this rework

carno has been nerfed repeatedly in its primary playstyle because of its high weight stat

with lower weight, they can balance it freely to be able to do all the things it otherwise couldn't without being OP

[shell crag]

looks cool
i hope they fix his turn radios

i know he is supposed to have bad turn but

its ridiculous how bad his turn is rn

its just terrible

so easy to avoid, one time 2 adult got me, i was juve cera and could easily avoid the two carnos and escape

hope they fix mz too, its the 2n time today i arrive mz and there is no food

[cedar beacon]

They did add more food to MZ but many players play Diablo, MZ just dont have that much food for that many Diablo players. Isnt that the difficulty playing as a herbivores you need to fight for food.

[fiery shard]

#balance-feedback message
agreed. stego doesn't need any improvement. he can already kill anyone in the game. no need to make a herbi dino into a perfect predator

[dusky surge]

diablo is proof stego is bad lmao

even if you nerfed diablo, it'd still be better than stego

diablo is everything stego was hyped up to be

[golden coral]

Technically true, stego just need the nerfs reverted/adjusted, and well, the jab adjusted/fixed. Could do with an upsize to 8T, but that can be a server option or mod if nothing else.

[golden coral]

It is, and it's hilarious, now imagine how trike will be recieved, or shant for that matter

[dusky surge]

its funny that an animal half its size so heavily invalidates stego

kinda proves that the stego is only good at bullying tiny little creatures, and struggles to even threaten an animal the size of allosaurus

its an animal carried by a weight value and nothing else. diablo has half the weight, and is more powerful than stego has ever been, because it has competent attacks that actually combo into each other and a movement system which complements its game plan

[golden coral]

Can't really even do that, troodons hunt stegos xD

[golden coral]

Yep, exactly the issue with stego and why it's so bad depsite all that massive damage people love to mention

[dusky surge]

stego is only viewed as a set of surface level numbers and it shows

"its health is high and damage is high"

it's also slow, godawful at turning, has extremely lengthy animations, exceptional stamcosts, an obnoxious cooldown, extremely vulnerable head, no bleed resist, etc

its crazy that its entire new power swing mechanic is invalidated by any animal having a stun

rex has a stun

the hell is stego going to do

[fiery shard]

stego kills dibble with 2-3 hits of new attack and can also knock him down with it. just nerf dibble

[dusky surge]

and those few attacks have

• cooldowns
• extremely high stamina drain
• extremely telegraphed animations to make them easy to dodge
• the ability to cancel them mid-animation with any stun

diablo? Doesn't have those issues. While stego is exhausting itself to defend itself from one diablo, diablo merely needs to face the stego and it literally doesn't care.

The only thing I find too powerful about diablo atm is absolutely its stun range

stego has far too many weaknesses that good animals like diablo don't have, because they actually have one clear weakness (exposed flanks) and that's the weakness the animal is designed around

stego has like, 5 unique weaknesses that sometimes entirely contradict the entire point of what the animal is supposed to do

[golden coral]

Pretty sure dibble can facetank more, but it takes at least 2 hits on body to kill one. But that's hardly the reason dibble is op or stego is garbage. Stegos attacks are bad, not in a stat manner but in operations manner.

[dusky surge]

well... if we count stamina cost as a stat, then yea, stego's attacks suck

[golden coral]

True, but even with the current stamina, remove cooldown and it'd be okay

Though 10% is very hefty for a cost

[dusky surge]

they actually fixed carno's similar issue. i'd like them to do the same with stego

[golden coral]

Yes please! And dryo too perhaps, let me dodge freely!

Cooldowns overall bad, balance with stats/anim if needed, and let the critters act freely

Feels so much better gameplay wise

[dusky surge]

For reference, if we were to do some math, teno's kick has almost as much value per stam as stego's swing

legitimately, in the same single stam bar, a TENONTOSAURUS almost does as much damage as a STEGOSAURUS

IN ONE STAM BAR

[fiery shard]

i would increase stego's movement speed from 26 to 30. he has the highest damage in game and a lot of health (only deino has more). he doesn't need much more than that. It's enough to nerf dibble

[dusky surge]

do not increase stego's speed what

out of literally every single buff you could give him, you make him a better hunter?

[golden coral]

Why would you make stego faster? I'd rather give it a slower, better looking run. And it's not an issue of stats, but how things work. Like the cooldown. Like the high cost of the attacks. Like the slow/clunky speed of some angles. And so on.

While I think a stego upsize would be good to help it vs the various apexes, it's not the main issue and won't be, because it's the playable that's bad, not the stats. Just like how diablo is a good playable, it's not the stats themselves that make diablo good.

Diablo isn't that powerful after all, but it can deliver the power very well, and that makes it terrifying

[dusky surge]

diablo isn't even that powerful beyond its stuns lmao

its damage is middling to poor, especially for an animal of its size (its sprinting knockdown attack does the same amount of damage as a carno's bite lmao.)

it has no attacks beyond the head and is susceptible heavily to flanking manoeuvres

it has a very low stamina that leaves it winded in most situations when it would sprint or swim

it has exceptionally poor juvi and sub stages

its turn radius is exceptionally poor, making it struggle in the open against groups

[golden coral]

Well, the drift turn/sparring might be a bit too good? But that would be the whole delivery of power, rather than power itself

[dusky surge]

and the drift turn is getting nerfed

the things broken about diablo are the bugged hitbox and the stupid stun

[obtuse ocean]

I also agree on this, dmg was less then i tho to. But the stun, off

[dusky surge]

the stun is disgusting lol

[coarse blaze]

I haven't played stego since learning more about diablo, I really don't want to lose 5 hours because 2 aggro diablos stun-locked me to death.

[leaden remnant]

i have, it ain't bad at all

the only complaint i have is how stupid the powerswing is in terms of controls

it does whatever it wants

[dusky surge]

it ain't bad as long as you never fight anyone smart or a diablo LMAO

[leaden remnant]

smart ppl arent difficult to kill, dibbles... uh

guess what killed me 💀

[dusky surge]

im sure stego stands a chance against rex even though it gets bodied by a goddamn diablo LMAO

[leaden remnant]

starts with diablo and ends with ceratops

[coarse blaze]

I'm a confident stego, I just don't think it'll be worth the headache honestly. Stunlocking is a stupid thing to fight with in any game

[dusky surge]

yup. i cant imagine how anyone expects this thing to be viable if it struggles this hard against an enemy like diablo of all things

[leaden remnant]

yea it's probably not worth it

[coarse blaze]

I can't imagine an Isle where stego is "good" anytime soon, not after it's nerf right after getting it's powerswing.

[leaden remnant]

unless it's a ruled server with rules that prohibit dibbles from killing you

[coarse blaze]

I want a populated NA unofficial server so bad.

I just want random griefing and mixpacking to be gone, that's genuinely it.

No "herbivores can't attack first" or "body down" counters.

Just no mixing and no fake 2 calling/killing group members

It's not even a petty feeling thing either about the 2 calling, it's more so I'm so tired of nesting with people just for them to kill every hatchling and then attempt to kill me for genuinely no reason other than "lmao, I wasted 45 minutes to make this person irked."

[dusky surge]

people do that?

thats so much effort though

[coarse blaze]

Unfortunately, had that exact thing happen with stego.

People are sad.

I've had somewhat alike situations with dilo too when it was first released because everyone hated dilo.

Herrea too for the same reason.

[dusky surge]

@golden wasp if stego had anything close to stam efficiency perhaps that'd be closer to a fair suggestion. Still... completely unfair to stego, but at least closer to fair

[golden wasp]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've survived multiple times, many ways with proper stam management. Even to other stegs

(Mind this is before the power swing update)

[dusky surge]

stegosaurus takes 10-15% stamina to use its powerswings. That's disgustingly high

and frankly, stegosaurus being helpless while every other animal isn't while out of stam is just hysterical (and sad)

[golden wasp]

Maybe if it was a damaging attack and not just an outright kill attack?

[faint timber]

I agree it is too high 👍🏻

[dusky surge]

it is a damaging attack lol

the hell do you mean an outright kill attack

[golden wasp]

Pachy, teno also have same issues. Teno may be able to tail slam, but that's been nerfed into the ground for damage ect

1 stego tail swing most bodies will kill in a 1 tap. I should have worded that slightly better.

[dusky surge]

teno can clawswipe, a powerful attack that does good bleed and comes out quite fast with a very good hitbox

pachy can headswing, providing stuns in which it can combo into itself

[golden wasp]

A teno tail or kick will not kill most things unless they are fresh

[dusky surge]

a teno is also a bit over 1/4 of stego's size. It's like rex being forced to nibble while out of stam.

not bite. nibble

[golden coral]

And stego tail won't kill things in proper size comparison

[golden wasp]

Steg bites are quite strong, but I still feel the issue is players having horrible stam management. It felt good to hunt or defend properly.

[golden coral]

If you want to argue that, you need to compare it properly

Also nothing should be entirely defenseless/dead when out of stam

[dusky surge]

then why doesn't everyone else get held to the same standard?

[leaden remnant]

me on my way to proceed to absolutely crap on stam

[golden wasp]

To do that, I think you'd need to have dinos actually be able to reach the stego size then, not size other playable up to stego size

[golden coral]

That's just bad design/balance at that point, the concept of waste stam = then just die, worked with old stam system perhaps

[dusky surge]

everyone else has their directional-attack as a fallback last resort attack in times of strife, except stego, apparently

[golden coral]

But new one, not so much

[dusky surge]

deinosuchus's alt bite does 10x more than stego's regular bite, has complete access to any angle, and, y'know, can defend itself

deino, in your suggestion, is a better land brawler than stego

[golden coral]

What does that even mean?

[golden wasp]

And they shouldn't due to both size, in best case stam management.

[leaden remnant]

me omw to wallcamp and spam swing

[golden coral]

If you want things to be defenseless out of stam, all carni bites would need nerfs

[golden wasp]

And they have been essentially banished to the water

[dusky surge]

i think its unfair that you specifically single out stego, when EVERY OTHER CREATURE has this directional option

[leaden remnant]

no alt biting when outta stam 👍

[faint timber]

Speaking of denio, the current denio has a very difficult time killing even stego near water.

[golden coral]

No biting without stam, or put all bites at the same level

[golden wasp]

And what animal is as big, powerful and has the option to just.. walk away

[leaden remnant]

uhhhhhhh no biting when outta stam is too much

[golden coral]

It should, its not meant to kill stegos

[dusky surge]

even then, massively carni-sided. Carni bites > herbi bites, so regardless, herbis are still screwed more for stamina economy, despite the fact that exhausting oneself should be equally punishing for both sides

[golden coral]

Either everything gets an effective attack out of stam or nothing does

[faint timber]

but he has a big molar, so we used to be able to do it very easily.

[dusky surge]

i mean, if we want to make things fair, it's exactly what needs to be done

it's too much, and a logical extreme, but I get his point

[golden coral]

Should just make the jab LMB attack for stego, and put the damage at 500-750 or so

[faint timber]

I still think this topic is absurd

[leaden remnant]

eh

[golden coral]

There we go then, problem solved, stego can defend itself properly with no issue, and no argument over if it's alt out of stam or not

[leaden remnant]

for the swing that it has, not sure

[dusky surge]

you can't give it literally any other attack that makes sense for that situation

if its going to do anything, its going to use the tail for it

[leaden remnant]

the things that bite typically have less "fighting capabilities"

[leaden remnant]

balls swing that does 100 damage when outta stam then ig

and teno can do a weak as heck kick ig?

[dusky surge]

without the "alt outta stam" option, every single herbivore (besides maybe diablo) is just screwed, because all of them rely on stam to use their hard hitting moves

[golden coral]

With the stam costs, it really isn't just a matter of stam management. Even less with new stam system and thresholds. Maybe if you gave stego much better thresholds, so it's never unable to regain stam and it might work. Or just put jab on LMB as a proper attack, like deino bite.

[leaden remnant]

im boutta crap on stam again

[dusky surge]

why not just let it use its claw attack

[golden coral]

What is this consistent making stego useless sentiments, I don't get it

[dusky surge]

stam isnt the problem here

[leaden remnant]

yes it is 😭

[golden coral]

No one seems to think rex should be unable to bite when out of stam far as I know

[dusky surge]

it isnt. you just want it to be the problem

[leaden remnant]

the fact that you cant get it back while standing when below 25% is a big ass issue

[dusky surge]

nor SHOULD anyone, because that's absurd

[golden coral]

Agreed, but it's apparently fine for stego

[leaden remnant]

because then no alt bites when outta stam would make some sense

[dusky surge]

it's weird that you want animals to be punished when out of stam, but not punished when out of stam

[golden coral]

So yeah, make rex and trike and deino unable to bite/alt out of stam as well

[leaden remnant]

the opposite, ive said it infinite times 😭

[golden coral]

So they too are dead when out of stam

[dusky surge]

like one punishment = good, but this other punishment = bad

[leaden remnant]

i want that if you get outta stam you're absolutely fricked

and that's for all species

[golden coral]

Which works, if out of stam options are good

Which they are not for herbis overall, hence herbis need an option

[dusky surge]

isnt that

how it is

[golden coral]

If stego bite did 500, sure... xD

[leaden remnant]

no

[dusky surge]

so wait, you want being out of stam to be punishing, but not punishing like it is now

[leaden remnant]

aint punishing enough

[dusky surge]

even though it's punishing now

it literally is what

[leaden remnant]

a stego can infinitely swing

that is barely punishing

[golden wasp]

Unsure if evena possible thing, but I think I'd be more ok with it having a stam to power for the swing? Like full stam, full power, no stam, drastically reduced power.

I'm not numbers person or much into the technical side of the game place mechanics, but I don't think there is even a system like that in game atm?

[dusky surge]

can't sprint
bleed duration significantly increased
can't regen actively without resting
can't jump
can't use your powerful stam-specific attacks

that's a LOT of issues

[leaden remnant]

a teno can beat the living heck outta you with the claw attacks when outta stam

[golden coral]

It just doesn't make any sense to want any playable to be defenseless, unless A, carnis run out of stam much faster and easier and B, they also regain it much slower

[dusky surge]

because otherwise it's unfair for the herbis

[leaden remnant]

then take alt bites when outta stam away from everyone

and nerf the living heck outta the bite damage for everyone

[dusky surge]

everyone gets the same punishments while they're out of stam now, not "herbis get restricted to the worst attacks in the game and carnis just keep biting"

[leaden remnant]

so that a carno cant deal 175 damage to you

[leaden remnant]

nah

if you got infinite tail swings you aint got the same punishment as a troodon for example

[dusky surge]

also removing flank defence, the primary part of this game's combat, because you ran out of stam, is lame

[leaden remnant]

then dont run outta stam

[golden coral]

Isn't that how it's meant to be, less damage when using alt out of stam. But less damage would still oneshot things it should, even a 600 damage jab will do that. As it should. Why you want stego to be defenseless is beyond me. If deino gets to have a bite at 500 with no stam cost, then stego should have at least a 750 damage with no stam cost attack available. Or do you imagine rex and trike should also be dead without stam?

[dusky surge]

a troodon still has its trot speed

[leaden remnant]

surely wont get 1 tapped by whatever is in front of it

[golden coral]

A carno, or omni can go nom nom nom.

[golden wasp]

Can't speak on rex or trike as I have no yet played it

[leaden remnant]

outta stam punishes big things way less than it does to small things

[golden coral]

... No, but do you want it that way?

[leaden remnant]

a carno can beat the living crap outta you when outta satm

[golden coral]

Since you want stego defenseless, do you hold the others to the same standard?

[golden wasp]

I won't know until I play it.

[leaden remnant]

a raptor cant do absolute crap

[dusky surge]

forcing playables to be stuck with their worst attacks, and other playables to be stuck with great attacks, also not fair

now we have it that rex is FAR less punished than stego, so back to square one, still not fair

[golden coral]

You can know, you can absolutely know

[golden wasp]

No, I can not since this is by play feel.

[leaden remnant]

my point is that if you're outta stam you should barely do any damage

all species

[dusky surge]

that sounds really unfun and unengaging

[leaden remnant]

not only carnis or herbis, no bias allowed

[golden coral]

"I feel being out of stam should be punishing, even to the point of death. " in your feedback. Should this apply to rex and trike, yes or no? Should it apply to deino, yes or no?

[leaden remnant]

well you wanted it to be fair and punishing to run outta stam

dont run outta stam if you dont wanna get obliterated

[dusky surge]

fair in the "I can still fight" way, not making everything suffer like launch gateway stego did

[leaden remnant]

then only small things will truly suffer

[dusky surge]

might as well just make running out of stam give you a heart attack

[golden coral]

It's really not a strange question. What you want for stego, do you want the same for everything else (as it should be), or is this just you not liking stego

[leaden remnant]

big things will barely care yknow

[golden wasp]

Again, I will not know for rex or trike so I can not answer.
Deino however has a lot more issues than I want to go into now

[dusky surge]

and those small things have... more stamina than the big things

so uh... who cares

[golden coral]

Because you either hold everything to the same standard, or you don't have a standard

[golden coral]

... How can you not know? It's literally a matter of "should playable be dead when out of stam"

[leaden remnant]

you wanted it to be fair, im making it fair

[dusky surge]

just feels you want a hard advantage for raptor specifically, as an animal that forces creatures to run low on stamina fast

[golden wasp]

Again, because I have not played it...

[golden coral]

You don't need to have played it

[leaden remnant]

why do you have to bring up that i like raptor 😭

[golden wasp]

I do

[golden coral]

That has literally nothing to do with it

[leaden remnant]

i dont want any advantage for raptors

[golden wasp]

This is circuitous and pointless

[golden coral]

No, you don't, you really don't, because that won't change the argument

[dusky surge]

because such a change highly benefits raptor

[leaden remnant]

how does it benefit a raptor that you legitimately cant do absolutely anything when outta stam

[dusky surge]

you realise what raptor's best hunting plan is right

[golden coral]

Because you somehow can't answer if your feedback should hold true or not

[leaden remnant]

if i run outta stam as a raptor it doesnt benefit me at all

[golden coral]

You don't get to say it should be for one playable and not the other, that is not how things work

[dusky surge]

raptor exhausts prey better than anything else

[leaden remnant]

this will sound stupid

but just dont get exhausted

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[leaden remnant]

dont fall for the tricks, ez

[faint timber]

Yes, I agree with you.

[dusky surge]

the tricks of "pressing E to buck"

[golden coral]

xD

[leaden remnant]

buck is being reworked

the argument doesnt work anymore mr

[dusky surge]

do you know how it's being reworked?

[golden coral]

Until bucking has been reworked, it kind of does xD

[leaden remnant]

yes...

[dusky surge]

if so, enlighten me

how does new bucking work

[leaden remnant]

pretty much a minigame/fight that consumes zero stamina

for both

but it will kick raptors out

[golden coral]

That seems good to me, you have more power when large, that's fine. You survive better when small, that's the tradeoff.

Small things should be better at surviving, worse at combat, after all

[leaden remnant]

i mean sure but it's still dumb that stamina matters less and less in some areas

[dusky surge]

i think making entire fights depend on stamina economy to the point that you are entirely helpless while out of stam is uh

bad and unfun

reducing to low stam is already REALLY detrimental to people. We don't need to triple down on it

[leaden remnant]

yeah this makes sense, but it doesn't take away from the original point, which is that if you have the ability to hardcore defend yourself when outta stam, stam doesn't matter that much

[dusky surge]

the ability to fight back should be a given norm in balance

[golden coral]

Yes, the entire concept of "dead when out of stam" is rather bad, unfun, and not very good balance

[dusky surge]

it's why pinning and grappling are not well liked atm

[golden coral]

Making alts do less damage when out of stam would be fine, like wounded status or so (though that has its own issues), but there shouldn't be a "it's out of stam, now it just dies"

[golden coral]

it does, depending on what you're up against

And that's the actual issue here

[leaden remnant]

sure, let's not make it "it's out of stam, now it just dies", but let's also not make it "it's out of stam, and it doesn't even matter"

[dusky surge]

so let it alt attack

[leaden remnant]

stego is the prime example, wallcamp and spam swing

[golden coral]

People think a stego out of stam should die to things it shouldn't, a stego out of stam will probably suffer vs alberto/allo, acro and larger

[leaden remnant]

how the hell is that fun

[golden coral]

But even a stego out of stam should not be vunerable to cera, carno, troodon, omni and so on

[golden coral]

That's mostly cause attacks are bad, if they were good, you wouldn't need to wallcamp

[dusky surge]

aren't they adding pounce placement shifting to specifically deal with wallcamping

[leaden remnant]

or idk a carno that can kill 20 troodons when outta stam

[golden coral]

That's not really relevant to if it can attack out of stam or not

[golden coral]

I mean, yeah, even a carno out of stam should not be troodon prey really

[dusky surge]

okay well that's just dogwater troodons

if you and 20 troodons lose to a carno what

[golden coral]

See, this is the issue, thinking that being out of stam should give some leeway it shouldnt

[leaden remnant]

you deal the same damage you do with full satm

[dusky surge]

that's so easy to deal with

[golden coral]

I mean, carno can just bite normally?

[dusky surge]

if the carno is out of stam, it's really easy to just obliterate it

[golden coral]

Well it cant run away, so yeah

[dusky surge]

95% of carno's defence plan is outrunning the problem, coming back and takin em out

[leaden remnant]

depends

[dusky surge]

not really LMAO

[faint timber]

or throw a sub-attack at the incoming enemy's head. That's what I was doing in cera teno. %5

[leaden remnant]

nuh uh

[dusky surge]

it's just easy to beat carnos if its exhausted as troodons

there's not much "depends"

[leaden remnant]

i just find it ridiculous that, even when outta stam, you can put up a hell of a fight

[leaden remnant]

me personally

as a carno it barely matters the amount of troodons that attack you

[golden coral]

This is fair, but it should apply to everything

[leaden remnant]

unless they're like 30 you aint dying

[golden coral]

And more importantly, it should apply harder to the carnis

[leaden remnant]

absolutely and that's also my point

[dusky surge]

god damn we gotta get rid of that adrenaline thing basically every creature has LMAO

[leaden remnant]

adrenaline runs out

[leaden remnant]

no herbi or carni bias allowed here yknow

it's either everything gets megabonked for running outta stam or nothing does

[golden coral]

I'd be fine with every attack costing stam, and being useable out of stam at half power or some such, at least for all normal attacks. Special attacks should always require stam due to how powerful they are

[leaden remnant]

and i very much prefer that everything does

[golden coral]

Agreed.

Hence why if someone wants stego to be dead out of stam, it must apply to every other playable too

[leaden remnant]

my reasoning is that first off the exhaust technique aint a thing anymore

[hasty coyote]

Why are we worried about being able to fight while out of stam when the funny pounce to pin can literally end the fight for you.

[leaden remnant]

there is not as much stam management in a fight

[leaden remnant]

the trees and the walls:

[leaden remnant]

and second you can put yo ass up a wall and win many fights that, logically speaking, you should've lost a long time ago

i dont wanna put raptors as an example because then i get accused of raptor bias smh

[hasty coyote]

Pounce changes:

[leaden remnant]

bucking rework:

[hasty coyote]

Can’t buck while out of stam

[golden coral]

Isn't that in part the point of terrain though?

[leaden remnant]

im not sure if that's gonna be a thing with bucking rework

[golden coral]

At some point we have to make terrain matter in some way, else we won't have any variation in encounters?

[leaden remnant]

i mean i guess it is, but you get what im saying

it's not putting your ass up a wall that bothers me

[golden coral]

Bucking won't take stam anymore, nor will pouncing (maybe the actual pounce, but apparently not hanging on?)

[leaden remnant]

it's the fact that you can still put up a hell of a fight

[hasty coyote]

I doubt bucking would just be a free action for being as strong as forcing Omni’s off.

[leaden remnant]

pouncing will always consume stam

[golden coral]

I do yes. And I like the new omni changes since it will both mitigate terrain, and hopefully show which playables need help when it comes to fighting itself, rather than just use terrain

[leaden remnant]

moving around will consume a considerable amount of stam

[hasty coyote]

Last I heard it wasn’t a stam battle. Not that it takes 0 stam

[golden coral]

(Hoping stego gets good again)

[golden coral]

Well, bucking won't take stam, pretty sure on that one

[leaden remnant]

im pretty sure it wont require any stam

[golden coral]

And yeah, no stam battle, so won't drain pouncer stam, not sure how it will work with hanging on, I guess there'd be some drain else you could just hitch a ride xD

[leaden remnant]

yeah theres gonna be average stam drain when hanging on

[golden coral]

Well yes, using the attack would, wasn't sure if hanging on would, now that we also get either bleed or damage when latched

[leaden remnant]

also most ppl dont realize that the change actually nerfs raptors

[golden coral]

But alright, that does make sense

[hasty coyote]

I assumed what was meant is that buck legit forces off omnis at some point. Not that stam is just removed from the equation.

[golden coral]

Don't want a raptor to just be able to hang on forever xD

[golden coral]

It does, might even damage them now

[leaden remnant]

it's a minimal buff to be able to move with very high stam costs, it's a very decent nerf that you don't do damage and bleed anymore

[golden coral]

But it won't drain their stam I don't think, it'll just... get them off

[leaden remnant]

no parties will consume any stamina at all

[leaden remnant]

you gotta choose what you want and spam the attack

[golden coral]

Well, you can choose to do either massive bleed, or damage, or just hang on for minimal of both I think

[leaden remnant]

yes

[golden coral]

Not sure what the moving around might cost, if anything

Don't think we have info on that

[leaden remnant]

im sure moving with raptors will still consume satm

[golden coral]

I meant the raptor moving slots, but yes, unfortunately moving while having omni or troodon on you will still drain stam probably (bad thing, but oh well)

[golden coral]

@grizzled anchor Do keep in mind a juvie or sub of one playable could be the size of another adult playable. And in the case of diablo and stego, it could also just be because they can't outrun a thing, so they never have a choice but to fight if something wants them dead.

[eager saddle]

Like a fg troodon being almost/ smaller than a baby dibble

[grizzled anchor]

Well I wanted to kill a just spawned dibble as sub adult cera once, took me like 6-7 bites which is just ridiculous. It shouldve been one bite. So yes I agree somewhat but its still too overpowered. And tbf if anything wants for example a baby raptor dead he has no chance to escape aswell since everything is faster than it. Its just a little overtuned in everything. But I also dont agree with it being 3 tons, especially after I looked up the estimated weight of the actual diabloceratops 😂

[golden coral]

In the case of the dibble, it could be the funny face shield doing it, like how you can bite on a tiny stego on top and the plates might take the hit and negate it. And true, most juvies overall can struggle, but at least a baby raptor is tiny and can hide a bit faster and easier than the larger and slower ones. But it could be a matter of the whole where an attack hits, if the attacker is too large as it were.

[grizzled anchor]

I also managed to fight off 2 sub adult dilos as a fresh spawn yesterday, and they didnt even got me envenomated, that should definetly not be possible that easily.

[golden coral]

As for dibble size, well, we're apparently no longer doing things accurate to IRL weights, so it is what it is.

[grizzled anchor]

But the shield aswell as the plates of the stego should only help to a certain degree. A sub adult cera should have such a bite force aswell as such a big mouth that it should be one or at least 2 shot in my opinion.

[golden coral]

It would make sense if the plates/frill developed over time too, yes. So a smaller one does not have the full defensive power, but grow into it.

But I don't know if they can make the mechanic work like that

[grizzled anchor]

I mean this game never really cared for paleontology but now they go nuts with doubling the estimated weight of diablo. Which is unnecessary imo. The big trike will be triceratops with estimated weights up to 10 tons so why do we need a 3 ton trike now lol I dont get it

[golden coral]

Then we also got a few other larger ceratopsians that might not fit in now, trike will be fine but there's a few smaller but still large ones that dibble might be closer to now. But I think dibble is a matter of them simply liking it at that size, nothing more.

[grizzled anchor]

Well that would be optimal but just putting a threshhold of how much damage it can negate until it gets useless would be enough.

[golden coral]

Thinking it'd break over time? Could also be a thing, but that seems slightly iffy, does it also regrow/recover then?

[grizzled anchor]

idk, kinda unnecessary from my point of view. I always seen diablo as a relatively small but agile ceratopsian which can cause pretty intense bleeds with its horns.

[golden coral]

But yeah, I'd be fine with defensive parts also growing in in power, just like attack strength and so on

[golden coral]

I think a fair few people were looking forward to dibble being just that

So you're not alone in preferring a smaller but more vicious dibble as it were

[grizzled anchor]

Noo I dont mean in like implementing a new mechanic, more like it can hold up against a ceratin amount of damage. For example (completely random numbers) it can negate some damage as long as the attacker has less than 200 damage, as soon as it goes over 200 damage the diablo gets the full damage because its just too much. It definetly feels like the shield negates % damage rn. Just changing this to true damage being negated would be helpful too. I dont know the code behind it sadly so just making assumptions here.

[grizzled anchor]

Well it sure is fitting better I think, rn it feels like a bad triceratops instead of an actual diabloceratops. But I think everyone know that they kinda rushed this update onto the main evrima branch again. Not much changed from hordetest to main branch

[golden coral]

Oh okay, yeah I think I get it. And you're correct, from what I know it's just a multiplier, like any body part. It just that when you hit diablo frill, it's a rather high damage reduction. Hence why they can survive a stego powerswing at 1800 damage, since they only take like half, if not less than that, if you hit their face. So you'd have to do something like first apply the multiplier, then maybe see if the damage left is sufficiently high to count as going through and if so, apply the full damage for that attack. Or something like that, perhaps.

And yeah, current dibble is probably what a subadult/large juvie trike might be, they've even been mentioned to spar against each other, and I think sparring only works if you're within a reasonable size range of each other so.

[grizzled anchor]

Yes something like that. I dont know 100% how the multiplier thing works, had to see the code for it to fully understand but the general idea is like this yeah. Lets take Rex for example it should have an insane amount of damage output something which the diablo should not be able to hold up against no matter where theyre hit. If the multiplier thing really works like "incoming dmg * 0.5 " for example then it would negate an insane amount of damage. So just adding a simple check if the incoming damage exceeds a certain threshold the multiplier is not being used at all.
Ive seen alot of complains that diablo can wreck up stegos like nothing, this probably has also a part in that. And thats what also makes the baby dibble so tanky at times where it really shouldnt be.
Of course the threshold would grow with the dino

Thats partially why I think the HT Version has been updated to the main branch too quickly. Things like this havent been thought through enough. Eventually they'll have to look at this because the multiplier on things like a shield cannot be used on infinite amounts of damage when bigger Dinos come into the game.

[golden coral]

Well the stego thing is mostly their stun thresholds, though I guess you could argue that taking a power thagomizer to the face ought to hurt more than it does. But then the entire point of dibble and the others is that they are an outright tank if you take them head on, so there is that.

And yes, it's just a multiplier, like how stego has x2 on head. Instead, dibble has x.5 or something, so you halve any damage you do. (if I'm writing this correctly). So yes, a rex might do, example number 2000 on a crush bite. If it hits a trike in the face, that would only do 1000 or perhaps even less if trike gets a more powerful multiplier. Which I do think is how they want it to be, you do not attack ceratopsians in the face, it's a terrible idea.

And yeah, threshold growing with the critter would be needed. It could work, though I'm not sure if they would want to do it that way, or just reduce the multiplier a little. Could also do that, and just speed juvie dibble up a bit and so on (I'd argue to let baby stegos do fractures with their little nubs, so they can fracture and then go away, instead of just doing raw damage).

Ideally I'd just see the multiplier grow with the critter, would be the easiest way, if they can make that work.

[grizzled anchor]

I get your point of not taking ceratopsians head on. But this would only be applicable til a certain size different (damage difference) is exceeded, then the dibble should see how it gets the hell out of there instead of trying to stand their ground. Idk how big the Apexes are actually gonna be but a 15 ton Rex should not have any problem biting a diablo in the head.

But in the end its all a thing that needs to be tested.

Another Idea would be instead of a multiplier making it a true number which gets negated. Basically negating any damage below that number and only negating this exact number from whatever higher damage number comes in. For example if it negates 800 damage it would make a huge difference with 1800 incoming damage or 3000.

With multiplier:

inc dmg: 3000

3000 * 0.5 = 1500

With true number:
inc dmg: 3000

3000 - 800 = 2200

And this would make more of a difference the higher the damage gets

[golden coral]

I would imagine that even with the multiplier, a rex would just grab and crush the dibble anyway to be honest, but the multiplier would allow it to stand up to an allo or alberto perhaps, or a subrex. And even if the multiplier would allow a dibble to take a hit, it's not going to win that trade vs the rex anyway. Like it wouldn't win vs stego if it wasn't in part due to the stun/negating the stego attack. But if it's just a matter of trading blows, a stego will win, even with current multiplier.

But yeah, an absolute value could work instead, but I'm not sure they might want to do that, unless it's for actual armor like anky might get. Though the entire point of the multipliers is kind of to do this, be it to add strength or weakness. The issue isn't really there, it's more so that the juvies have the same multiplier, despite their frill/plate/whatever not being grown in properly yet.

[grizzled anchor]

So basically just changing the multiplier value together with growth could also have the desired effect of babies not tanking everything to a ridiculous point.

Would need testing in the end to see how everything works out but I guess this would be the best compromise then if they truly want to stick with the multipliers.

I just hope they take a look at it and work something out 🙂

[fast breach]

I believe they shouldn’t make herbivores super strong alone, unless they’re a herbivore that’s species is known to stay solo- because with the massive herd limits it’s rare to see a herbivore alone. Make them rely on their herds more or decrease herd limits.

[slim dragon]

What a way to make herbivores unviable and completely extinct from official servers

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

"nerf everything in diablo, allosaurus sure will kill 1 if its alone after the nerf but they live in herds and mix pack with stegos."

this statement alone makes me entirely disagree with your point lmao

[fast breach]

I’m not trying to make them unviable I just believe they should rely on herds more and not be able to go solo. Similar to how Omni isn’t the very best solo, yk?

[slim dragon]

Omni can survive solo
A herbi that cannot defend itself solo cannot survive alone, therefore it's unviable

[dusky surge]

omni can survive solo. herbis should be able to survive solo

[slim dragon]

How do you find a herd to be a part of if no one can survive alone and form a herd in the first place ?

[dusky surge]

packing up to hunt does not equate to packing up to survive

as a proud solo troodon player, literally all creatures should be viable solo. If TROODON can be viable solo, so should every herbi

[fast breach]

Okay well, just was my opinion they should be nerfed a tad

[dusky surge]

Then no one would play them LMAO

So you go from "I can't hunt herbis because they're too strong" to "I can't hunt herbis because no one plays them because they suck solo"

I'd at least rather the option where people are playing them

[fast breach]

Well then you can reference my second thought. I said they should either rely on herds more or herd limits should be decreased. Herbivores don’t particularly need a huge herd as it is (depending on species I suppose but 2-3 is usually strong enough to deal with any threats) so the reasoning behind nerfing them a little was so they would need a reason for massive herds and it wasn’t just 8 super strong Tenos

[dusky surge]

let's actually use a fitting example

pachy. Pachy, atm, sucks on its own. It gets bodied by minmax mutation ceratos, a pair of omnis, etc. It sucks SO badly, that no one plays it. Tell me the last time you've seen a pachy. The answer is that if you have, it was a literal unicorn.

Pachy sucks solo. No one plays pachy. When pachy was good solo, there was a solid pachy playerbase. Corrolation is clear

[golden coral]

You could maybe lower herd numbers, but I think a better option would be to give more incentive for a herd to break up at times, giving more openings. But no critter should rely on a pack or herd to survive and be viable, that's not really good. Even troodons can survive on their own, at least I hope they can.

[fast breach]

I think Pachy is viable against some things solo. Imo I’ve seen decent ones body 1-2 dilos. As a herbivore I believe they should rely on herds a bit more ^^

[golden coral]

It's honestly more that herds, or packs for that matter, can stick together all the time, which isn't ideal

[dusky surge]

okay but like

dilo is one of, if not the worst, carnivores in the game right now

it SUCKS

real bad

[fast breach]

It can kill stego c:

[dusky surge]

if the stego knows the way to ez counter dilo, no it cant

you can beat dilo by walking to specific places. it's really sad

dilo is the easiest countered animal in the entire game

[fast breach]

Yeah I agree with yours a bit more tbh, but I think Troodon does need a pack, at least to hunt if anything

[dusky surge]

Even troodon can work well solo

I play a ton of solo troo

[golden coral]

@lunar jetty So, the problem here is that the devs want dibble the size it is, that's about it. Also you counted wrong, if trike is 6T and diablo2T, then it's 3x the size, not 6x. Just as a side note. I will agree that dibble stun threshold is a bit high, but it can't stun deino (deino can't be stunned at all I don't think, or so I've heard, aside from self stun when lunging too big targets). But it's not a matter of if the server agrees or not, the devs want large dibble, so we get large dibble. Better to adjust dibble in other ways then than to just change weight/size.

[golden coral]

I mean, most things can, stego is not as impressive as people think. Especially now that they got diablo that is overall better.

[golden coral]

True, but that's the difference. A troodon or omni need a pack to punch up, but they can survive/be viable on their own (thus they can live long enough to find packmates). Herding/packing up for viability/survival is bad, doing so for added gains of power vs other groups or something larger is fine. Like, you could have stegos herd up to fight off rex, but that would require a solo stego to be able to run from the rex, so it can live and find other stegos. Viability is not the same as ability, requiring a group purely to survive encounters is not ideal at all.

[fast breach]

Well I wasn’t trying to suggest to make herbivores unable to survive encounters. I do believe dibble can take a bit of nerfing and still be able to hold its own fairly well against 1-2 Ceras for example. But there are some fights that just aren’t.. meant to be won at all. Like I find it hard to believe that a baby dibble can efficiently tank 2 sub dilos stacked with mutations? And even knock us over? At least remove one or the other.. like perhaps dibble needs to be a tad bit bigger to stun sun Dilo, or maybe it tanks a little less as a baby- but I do understand that baby dibble is SUPER slow.. so I’m not sure how to fix that aspect lol

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, dibble is currently doing quite well, it could do with some adjustments, and I think it will get some too, just like carno and cera and apparently troodon. The whole baby dibble being resilient is most likely due to very high damage reduction on the frill. And the stun threshold is a bit over the top, agreed on that too. It's probably just that when people say "rely on herds" they often do mean "you're more or less dead solo", because well, they believe herbis should be in herds to survive. So it's maybe not the best way to put it if you're just asking for a nerf or adjustment for a specific playable.

Also just speed up juvie dibble, why juvies must be slow is beyond me, it's not fun or engaging gameplay from what I can tell

[coarse blaze]

I also disagree with your sentiment entirely.

• Herbivores aren't just walking food

• Not all herbivores are herd oriented

• Not every herbivore should need a herd to be viable

• It makes genuinely no sense to make them, by default "weaker" as opposed to carnivores.

[fast breach]

Read the conversation please, I came off the wrong way and my discussion with Erik shows what I really meant to say

“unless they’re a herbivore that’s species is known to stay solo-“ also this

[coarse blaze]

I did, I made sure to go through the conversation.

You state here "Well I wasn’t trying to suggest to make herbivores unable to survive encounters. " and then go onto diablos current state and nothing else going against your previous statement.

Also no herbivores in game are "known to be solo" so that genuinely means very little. People choose typically to either play solo or with others.

[fast breach]

Oh I don’t mean in-game when I say that, I mean more I’m sure there’s herbivores not yet added to the game which are spectated irl to have been solo

[coarse blaze]

You just pressed for herbivores to be weaker and should rely on herds for the most part. Saying that should be able to survive a solo encounter isn't the same as being viable.

[fast breach]

Uh well I’m ngl but I don’t find it a good use of my effort to debate with someone who’s position is already set, so I agree (or more so, respect) with your position on the matter but I don’t wish to go back and forth on points that have been said plenty of times

[golden coral]

Null did kind of clarify that it was more of a question of diablo being a bit overtuned, rather than a matter of a "herd up" argument, so not really sure if there's anything to argue there. Diablo is a bit overtuned, but it, like any other, should not require a herd to be viable.

[obtuse ocean]

How is it ? I mean with the current rooster i can understand. But not in the future ?

[hasty coyote]

Imo the drift, stun thresholds, and lack of a cap on damage resist are the main things making it op. If those got nerfed slightly it should be fine. Drift already seems to be getting a slight nerf based on don’s stream.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea. the stun i also agree on. But dibble should be really hard to kill : P

[hasty coyote]

3k hp and basically 300 damage attacks with 0 stam cost plus strafing make it already insane to fight for most small things. So it’s def fine if those got slightly nerfed.

[cobalt dagger]

I haven't read all of this. But I wanna say that dilo is particularly weak right now, and pachy is one of the things it's weaker against because dilo relies heavily on it's speed to escape and live, and pachy can get rid of that speed by breaking a leg. It's bad turn radius, low flexibility and slow alt-bite, combined with funky bite hit box that just doesn't sometimes, makes dilo uniquely weak to pachy. Pachy vs 2 dilo is a bad example to show off Pachy's power. It's worth noting that Dilo also struggles against other match-ups right now, not just Pachy, because water and rocks entirely invalidate their venom.

[cobalt dagger]

Oh you already summed it up for me.

[fast breach]

Yes, dibble should be hard to kill! But with the current roster- it goes from hard to kill to near impossible- but I figure that will be better once Allo, Rex, and other various carnis come too

[golden coral]

Wait, dibble has 300 stamina free base attacks?

[fast breach]

True but since you bring up Dilo needing it’s speed to escape/live- wouldn’t that mean Pachy is good against omni too? If Pachy gets break on omni it is also rather defenseless

[golden coral]

Omni is quite a bit more agile, and it has funny pounce and grapple

[hasty coyote]

the damage resist is legit busted because with block, diablo can tank 23,000 damage and live. (damage multiplier of 1/8 to the head while blocking, so it takes 24,000 damage to kill it in that stance). So all I'd ask for is a cap on the damage it can reduce. Like maybe a max of 500 damage on a single attack. Also have the damage resist multipler and cap scale with weight, so a freshspawn can't tank 2 carno charges.

Stuns are self explanatory, I'd prob make max knockdown its own weight (3 tons), max stun 1.5x its weight (4.5 tons).

the drift is a bit too easy to use with such high acceleration and fast turn. I'd prob slow it down slightly and make the max turn a 180 degrees rather than the like 220 degrees you can do currently.

[hasty coyote]

It has attacks that deal ~300 damage and cost 0 stamina

[golden coral]

... wonder how downvoted a suggestion to give stego a base attack of 500 at no stam cost would be... xD

[cobalt dagger]

Dilo isn't meant to be super tanky, it's meant to be flimsy and fast and diablo is BUILT to be tanky. Dilo also doesn't get it's venom (supposed to be it's redeeming feature) until later in life which is probably kinda bad, you might not have been old enough for venom.

I recommend fighting baby diablos not in their forte (tanking) but in yours (hit and run), and then... Yeah sorry, it is an unbalanced matchup so I agree that the situation you describe is silly: Diablo is strong right now, and Dilo is super weak right now, so one of the most nerfed guys tried to attack one of the most buffed guys and it turned out badly for the nerfed guys.

[golden coral]

Do you know how high the multiplier is without blocking?

[hasty coyote]

1/4th, so it can tank 12,000 damage

[hasty coyote]

I'd imagine HEAVILY downvoted

[golden coral]

Not bad... tanky little critter. Maybe just need to lower the multipliers then, so block is 1/4th and it normally is half as good only or so

And yes, multipliers for defensive spots could maybe grow in with the playables growth

[hasty coyote]

I think the multipliers are fine, they just need a cap. Mainly so it can't tank stuff like stego swings and rex bites but can shrug off a cera easily.

[fast breach]

True, I don’t disagree with dibble meant to be tanky- would just be nice if it was tanky like.. a little later than freshspawn?

[hasty coyote]

honestly thats how I hope armor works in general for stuff like anky and minmi in the future. Low multiplers with a max amount they can reduce.

[golden coral]

Isn't that just an issue with the multiplier though

If I calculated right, a dibble can take 6 power swings (standing ones) from stego to the face and live?

[cobalt dagger]

Pounce to pin, low bleed resist, omni's BUFFED LEGS, Pachy's inability to run away unless it breaks a leg, and that raptors are not usually solo... Even if it was a group of 2, though, that's enoung to pounce-to-pin with no other conditions necessary.

[golden coral]

Figures, too bad, would be a good option

[hasty coyote]

Heres the way I see it, make heavy attacks like power swing just puncture through the armor, theres no reason it should be able to tank 6 swings.

[cobalt dagger]

Omni had it's leg health buffed. Granted I don't know if that will save it from a pachy leg break, I haven't tried. I also haven't seen solo raptors at all pretty much so I'd have no subjects to test on.

However. If a pachy hides in a bush and gets the jump on a solo omni and breaks it's leg, yeah that situation does favor pachy pretty decently.

[golden coral]

True, giving some attacks armor piercing would be interesting, but I still think just lowering the multipliers would solve most of the issue

[hasty coyote]

So, say it has a cap of like 300 damage. That means a stego swing still does 900 damage to a diablo, but a cera bite is still reduced to under 19 damage.

[cobalt dagger]

That's, if it can find a solo omni.

[fast breach]

Yeah true.. Im not sure, I think the isle is trying to go for a realistic balance approach.. AKA Pachy being JUST good enough to find the rest of the protection it needs in a herd- but then cuz it’s a.. game.. and not irl, Pachy often doesn’t find a herd before it dies so

[cobalt dagger]

Game balance is constantly fluctuating. Omni used to be SO BAD when we had no pounce from behind or front with no buffs, and now it's TOO GOOD.

[golden coral]

It wasn't bad at all, just actually required skill

Omni was still capable, just required more planning and skill, now we're back to just "aim in general direction" more or less

[cobalt dagger]

I suppose that's true, unless you're laggy and then it was tedious. I saw some pretty silly clips of pounce fails though, ones that should have worked. Probably has something to do with ping.

[golden coral]

Yes well, I can't really argue lag or ping for how a playable should work

[cobalt dagger]

As someone who's often laggy, Omni was really hard for me, as well as troodon, when that was enabled.

[golden coral]

If so, we'd have to nerf stego even more due to how funny the hitbox can be at times

[cobalt dagger]

You kinda can because some playable benefit or are hurt more by bad ping.

[golden coral]

Well, not the hitbox, but the ping/lag doing it

[cobalt dagger]

But I agree, that's an optimization issue and not a balancing issue.

[golden coral]

You could, but then you'd also have to settle on which side should benefit or not, and that could also be difficult

But it also ends up being weird if the game then works properly

[cedar beacon]

Is it fair/balanced that Herbs gain more weight during growth than carnis?

[hasty coyote]

it would solve the issue with its own size range, but not its ability to tank such heavy blows. The issue is not it being able to tank that much damage over like 500 attacks, the issue is it being able to tank that much damage from a SINGLE attack and LIVE.
Essentially:
vs smaller things the multipler works fine, basically negating the attack. But since they are smaller, they can easily reach the vulnerable side
vs same size things the multiplier is a bit strong but thats also the point. You don't face tank a ceratopsian. If we lower the reduction it could affect these fights too heavily
vs larger things is where the issue arises, as diablo is able to shrug off attacks it really shouldn't.

As such, a cap that specifically makes diablo weaker to larger things with heavier attacks is a better solution imo.