balance-feedback-discussion

[pure apex]

Adult omni can insta pin fg herrera and kill it. So i dont see any problem that herra can also kill fg omni

[cosmic heron]

@elder brook perhaps a good solution for that problem is having the bees to attack anything that perform an attack action inside the sanctuary zone. Since the bees are already there why not to use them.

[sinful sky]

I wonder if folk would get behind an anti-mixpacking mechanic.

I have no idea how to go about implementing one though. The easiest solution sounds like a proximity stress mechanic debuff, but for non mixpackers playing the long game in a hunt, that debuff can spoil say, a group of dilos taking on a stego, so idk how effective that’d be.

I don’t think there’s anything the devs can do gameplay wise to discourage mixpacking without it inevitably hurting people who aren’t mixpacking but are just taking a while to hunt something

[tall bronze]

Yeah proximity debuffs have a lot of abuse potential. One good example is a griefer who is faster than his victim, let's say a Carno chasing a Teno. Teno tries to fight, Carno backs up. Teno tries to leave, Carno follows. All the while Carno is staying j u s t close enough to trigger the debuffs. It gets them too, sure, but griefers don't care.

Reducing the range also doesn't help because at that point, actual mixpackers just end up mixpacking easily again <:I It's prolly best to encourage not doing it rather than outright punishing it.

[leaden remnant]

ive probably been saved by it about 10-15 times and i played maybe 60 hours on ht

i dont like it

at all

[leaden remnant]

sounds good but people in this game are so damn toxic that they'd do anything to ruin your day

and if they need to die to a debuff, they won't care at all

[sinful sky]

a very unfortunate truth that makes any sort of balancing against them difficult. They often wil target no matter what, and in the meantime, regular/casual players will probably suffer said debuffs unintentionally :/

[leaden remnant]

yup

ppl r crazy in this game

like me personally i didnt expect that you'd have to run from everyone even your own species when the cannibal mutation wasnt a thing

[sinful sky]

community servers come in handy, but officials are pretty universally toxic unfortunately :(

[leaden remnant]

yus

[hasty coyote]

This is the best one I have had but it also doesn’t really deter them directly #general-feedback message

[eager saddle]

Honestly very impressive double headshot from that herra

[void grail]

@leaden wagon 3 tons on Dibble will be needed when Allo and T-Rex come out. Apex protection.

[leaden wagon]

youll be in a herd with like 4 other diblos. isnt that what herbies do is team with everything herby

[cosmic pelican]

It shouldnt rely on a herd though to defend itself against a predator that is nearly the same size and faster.

[leaden wagon]

if a 30% didble can truck a 100% cera then whats stoping it to a allo

[golden coral]

Allo is quite a bit larger and more powerful than cera?

[leaden wagon]

A allo is probaly going to wiegh close to 4 tons

[cosmic pelican]

Thats becuase its adult weight is 3 tons, if it was reduced to its original weight of 1.5 tons it would absolutely get moved down by an allo, even 2 ton dibble would struggle immensely.

[leaden wagon]

allos will problaly be like carno bad turn radius

so i dibols chances of hurting it is high

[cosmic pelican]

Itll be more like 2.8-3 tons in evrima iirc

4 tons would be a massive strech

[leaden wagon]

they tower over carnos and still have that tanky look

[golden coral]

Well, diablo is large, allo might be larger

[leaden wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-islecord-no-way-bro-on-god-allosaurus-gif-26698101

[cosmic pelican]

Allo isnt that much taller, its just wide.

[leaden wagon]

look at that picture

video

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah its barely taller than a carno at the shoulder

[leaden wagon]

4 tons a least

or close

like 3.6 tones

[cosmic pelican]

If what you say turn out to be true, which I very much doubt, then dibble will need that 3 tons of weight even more so.

[leaden wagon]

you can see how tall the carno is fully stood up

i mean allo

we'll see ❤️

[cosmic pelican]

Size isnt a matter of height tho. If it was, a girrafe would be the biggest land animal, even though an elephant weighs multitudes more

[golden coral]

And we'll see if dibble does better than stego xD

[leaden wagon]

a didble can kill a stego ez

solo

[orchid merlin]

Carno and Allo are about the same height

[leaden wagon]

is this the isle reputation of the dinos?

[orchid merlin]

What do u mean

[leaden wagon]

is says in the evrima chart that allo is going to wiegh 2.7 tons

but dibblo was alo supost to be 1.2 tones but its 3

[leaden remnant]

are you sure

[daring spindle]

thats not official

[leaden wagon]

and diablo is only 1.2 tons but in game its 3

ya but allo is going to be ablout 4 tons

3.5

[leaden remnant]

uh yes but that's not the isle chart

that's a real chart probably

[daring spindle]

diablo was initially at 1.5 tons and was changed based on some other balancing things (though imo it should till be at 2 tons)

[daring spindle]

that chart is a very rough estimation made by a random person, not by the isle dev team

so it doesnt hold any sway over what will or will not happen

[leaden wagon]

makes since

[leaden remnant]

almost everytihng there is wrong

[leaden wagon]

ya just ablout

[leaden remnant]

if we speaking about evrima, very few things there are correct

[leaden wagon]

the wieghs from here to in game are almost all wrong

[leaden remnant]

up

[golden coral]

Most of those are based on real life max sizes, which does not always end up being in the game

Some of those are probably also not updated anyway

[cosmic heron]

I wonder if there is some sort of reasoning for the bad stam regeneration on the ptera

[shadow vortex]

There is, being a mixpack scout and an obnoxious big dinosaur pecker back on Spiro. I don’t agree that it’s the fair reason nowadays tbh, since we’ve got the new map where it’s really easy to evade from a Ptera.

[leaden remnant]

some ppl used it to troll so they nerfed it to the ground

[cosmic heron]

Genious idea. Make the gameplay miserable. This certainly gonna get new players to play the game right?

[grizzled anchor]

So can anyone tell me how the knockdown works for dibble? Because the dibble seems waaaaaaay to op so far o.o

[cosmic heron]

It doesnt do damage, it doesnt have health all it can do is fly and then you have to expent more than half of the gameplay on ground waiting for the stamina to go up. I understand sometimes a creature needs to be nerfed but those nerfs should be something you think about it before doing it. Feels like the decision making of this game was gave to a 8yo

[robust jay]

Only on the isle

Lol

[leaden remnant]

ikr

the only logical explanation is the isle

[grizzled anchor]

???

[leaden remnant]

hold left click to send someone flying

let me check numbers for you real quick

alr absolutely no idea i have the outdated ones

[grizzled anchor]

Yeah those are what would interest me 🤔 what were the outdated ones?

[leaden remnant]

the outdated ones were stun up to 3 times its weight, meaning 9 tons, and knock twice your weight down

[cosmic heron]

nerfing is a cheap option. Specially stat based nerfing. Now changes on the mechanics to make the game better would be a whole different thing. I know its more hard to do but thats how you should rebalance a game

[leaden remnant]

^^

it's cheap, boring, and useless

the only people who play ptera now are either new people or people who want to scout and realize it's useless

... or me, i love ptera

[cosmic heron]

Its good if you wanna play as a pacifist and you happen to be luck enough to get fish to spawn on the rivers. But seems like the spawning of fishes when you are on a ptera for some reason is also bugged. But boars that can one hit you. Those spawn in pack

[leaden remnant]

i mean, graphics are nice

ptera is spectator mode lol

but with some added "fun" and ofc the 4+ minutes sitting stam regen time

[cosmic heron]

Yes its spectator mode. My question is how people could even troll as a ptera. Because its kinda useless on combat

[golden coral]

They used to be able to do things like peck carnos and stegos to death, due to various factors, so there's been some situations. With that said, current ptera is not really fun, but then a fair few critters suffer from not being fun or feeling good for one reason or another.

[cosmic heron]

so I assume the devs gave it a huge damage nerf that would have solved the issue and then they added on top some stamina nerf that then made it useless and not fun to play. Instead they could make so the ptera do reduced damage to animals that are bigger which would solve the issue. Also give it a good detection range so it can at least be a scavenger

[golden coral]

Issue wasn't really damage, and if they did that, then it wouldn't be able to peck smaller things to death. More so a lack of ability to attack upwards, plus ptera being able to basically hover/circle just out of reach for very long. And so on. But yes, there could have been other solutions, and other ways to handle ptera. But they do worry about it being used as scout as well, so the idea might be that you can't just follow a playable for too long, hence the stamina.

[cosmic heron]

Its kinda hard to keep an eye on something small when it runs on tall grass and over tree coverage. Also fix so if you have similar size you would be able to attack back a diving ptera. There are lots of ways to fix it and still have a fun flying lizard experience. But the way those things are being treated its almost the same as removing the thing from the game

[golden coral]

I imagine it's not the small things you'd scout for, but the larger ones that can't hide very well

Flying around looking for a stego for your friends to take down, or similar

[cosmic heron]

that still can be done the way it is. So the nerf not only made the experience worse but also didnt solve the thing it was supposed to solve

[hasty coyote]

While sprinting press left click and it will deal like 150 dmg and knock down/stun things for 0 stamina.

[storm epoch]

this is a problem

ive been killed 5 times throughout the day by juvenile heras that one shot and survive a 100 foot drop

from a tree so far away

[alpine knot]

Skill issue dont stand still under hte trees

[storm epoch]

gravity would not let that thing jump THAT far, and for it to be an auto target unpunishable is insane

[storm epoch]

i was like 50 feet away from the tree you can see him jump off it 😭

[olive rose]

Literally he is not anywhere even close to under that tree lmao

[storm epoch]

with such a fast growth time and only needing to be juvenile to one shot, and absolutely no risk of dying due to the auto target, its insane

i was like 15% stego

[olive rose]

Don't get me wrong I love playing as Herrera but the extent to which it's a near instakill on anything short of a carno is ridiculous I've had so much rage bc of them

[storm epoch]

yeah man dont get me wrong i love the mechanics its very cool, but at least put some skill in it? make them aim? maybe risk of missing and dying? being 50 feet from a 100+ tree in PITCH BLACK DARKNESS. yet he locks on like a predator missle and oneshots

[grizzled anchor]

Wow that sounds balanced o.o
Sometimes Im wondering what theyre thinking when deciding this stuff 😂

[storm epoch]

they were doing so well with the dinos until they started giving them pvp mechanics with barely any growth or skill required to use, for diablo and hera

putting a juvenile on par with adults with no room for any reaction time, no room for error from the attacker, and no room to fight back is just bad gameplay

no game community has ever liked one shots

[alpine knot]

I mean u do have to aim? if there 50 ft away there is plenty of time to move. they also only one shot babies burh. like anything less and they cant eat

[storm epoch]

u think i could see that dude up there in the dark? no, and he couldnt see me either, but there was a bright circle he just has to click on to ruin the past hour i had been playing

[dusky surge]

it is pretty balanced given how slow the diablo is lol, and how godawful its turn rate is

like diablo still has very exposed flanks. raptors have a field day with it

[grizzled anchor]

herra is an ambush predator only, basically like croc so I think that herra is in a good enough spot to call him balanced.
diablo looks absolutely broken so far, but I didnt fight them that much since my few encounters showed me that its just not fun fighting them. I can say tho that babies are waaaaaay to tanky for their size. The dont deal damage but killing them takes way too long.
I think they should put the stam costs back in so managing stamina while tiring your opponent out is a viable strategy again.

[storm epoch]

something that weighs nearly a thouand kilograms, 4 legs for support, and literal SPIKES on its back should impale something that much smaller than it, but i get one shot?

[dusky surge]

wdym "put the stam costs back in"

what stam costs?

[storm epoch]

lacj of realism, lack of enjoyable pvp, lack of balance

[grizzled anchor]

0 stam cost for a stun/knockdown plus damage is not balanced in my book lol
Yeah they might be weak to group huntes like raptors but ever tried fighting one as cera? No fun in that, might aswell go look for other prey XD

[dusky surge]

usually herrera can't do damage to stego because the plates protect it, so I'm unsure what happened there

[grizzled anchor]

The fact that u can alt attack even without stam?
Plus Ive been told the stun/knockdown doesnt cost ANY stam.

[dusky surge]

... cerato should not be hunting diablo LMAO

[storm epoch]

itd take a reaaaallly good cera

and a questionable diablo

[dusky surge]

people out here taking the non-hunter scavenger to hunt things then being upset when the non-hunter can't hunt

[slim dragon]

(to hunt things twice their size)

[grizzled anchor]

Because of what exactly? Its the second largest land predator in the game. I dont see where carno would have a much better chance, especially with the turn radius.

[slim dragon]

Because cerato is firstly a scavenger

[storm epoch]

just puke on it

[dusky surge]

it's a literal scav/bully. It's DESIGNED not to hunt

[grizzled anchor]

idk about u but I still go hunting if theres no food around. And cerato definetly shouldnt be a weakling, just because its not his main design doesnt me he cant do it lol

[dusky surge]

it legit is that simple tho

vomitlocks hard counter diablo, ceratos are WAAAYY too good at hunting it

[dusky surge]

i'm not saying it should be a weakling. in fact, i think it needs to be more intimidating to animals like omni, dilo, herrera, etc

I just think it shouldn't be good at hunting things

there's a strong difference between me wanting cerato to be weak, and me wanting cerato to do the thing cerato is meant to do

[storm epoch]

ceras live for the drama, you gotta attack when theyre at their lowest and make the most out of your poison

as he said theyre not exactly the fair 1v1 type

[grizzled anchor]

It shouldnt be terrible at it tho. If I ambush someone and get very close to him I dont see whats wrong about that. So saying I complain because a non hunter is bad at hunting isnt really that useful, besides it was an example as I mentioned.

[storm epoch]

at least theres room for a chance of victory, unlike this absolute bs

still mad ab it

[grizzled anchor]

wdym especially if theyre not designed for hunting they should be threatening enough to stand its ground, so it should be able to take a 1v1 imo. Otherwise it would be walking food as long as theres no body around.

Anyway I didnt want to discuss cera lol I wanted to talk about the diablo being too strong and especially the babies being waaaay to tanky imo.

[storm epoch]

yeah im not sure why theyre leaning towards such heavy pvp mechanics

its nice but gameplay interactions are much cooler

like the cera, its fr like the perfect dino to play

[vale brook]

that is not a juvenile

[vale brook]

looks like it hit the side of the stego instead of the top of it, which isnt impossible due to herrera hitbox

[dusky surge]

thats possible

[vale brook]

ive played more than enough herrera to know the ins and outs of it, stego juvies (especially ones that small)) are prime targets

considering he didnt get 1 shot, the herrera either a) wasnt FG but damn near close or b) didnt jump from max height

i seriously doubt that stego was more than 750kg, where as 700kg is about the max that can be 1shot by herrera without any damage mutations

[tiny thicket]

And who is cerato designed to bully exactly?

[dusky surge]

other... carnivores? lol

[orchid merlin]

Dude herreras take 1 hour and 20 mins to grow. Not to mention that they’re useless for most of their life

[tiny thicket]

Which carnivores?

[dusky surge]

pretty much everything on our current roster besides deino

[orchid merlin]

“Make them aim” brother what

Herreras do have a aim thing

[tiny thicket]

Is cerato designed to bully carno as well?

[vale brook]

everything with a body, really. thats the entire point of the corpse buff

[vale brook]

yes, which it does rather successfully with a body

[dusky surge]

i mean... ideally

carno currently being built as a cerato smackdown animal and somehow sucking at hunting small game is something dondi has acknowledged lol

[vale brook]

but carno is also biting off more than it should rn anyway cause its supposed to be a small game hunter and right now its... not

[tiny thicket]

Wouldn't hunting small game mean there's not enough food for cerato?

[vale brook]

considering cerato is meant to be pushing things off body, no?

[dusky surge]

how are those two things related

[alpine plover]

Wait lmao, I might be confusing you with someone else but didn’t you say carno was in a good position?

[vale brook]

cerato is meant to be a bully scavenger first and foremost. it can quite literally eat anything. i promise there will never be a lack of cerato food. i assure you

[dusky surge]

atm? no lol

[tiny thicket]

Ofcourse with amount of herbivores killing each other there won't be lack food for cerato.

[dusky surge]

i still remember when gateway was less of a hotspot nightmare and cerato was the most fun i ever had

i travelled all over finding corpses in random, bizarre places and having a blast

[vale brook]

also herbivores killing other carnivores, other ceratos, etc

[dusky surge]

or just some carnivore dying in a hunt and you taking it from their mourning family lol

[tiny thicket]

So isn't cerato technically bullying herbivores off the corpses?

[dusky surge]

what

[vale brook]

i mean... it can bully anything off the corpse

but herbivores need to eat and will have to eventually move off the corpse. so even if the animal is too big for cerato to bully, it can just wait for the animal to leave and engorge itself with meat

[alpine plover]

Oh yeah mb you just meant the charge, i misread this as just “carnos decent”.

[dusky surge]

oh i meant all that, yea, but the charge is just a nightmare of design lol

like its base stats are fine but its main ability is a hell

[alpine plover]

Yeah I seen your proposed rework, it’s better

[storm epoch]

Why would you guys add a one shot flying squirrel into the game? its pitch black and I'm standing 50+ feet away from a 100+ foot tall tree, and batman (juvenile hera) proceeds to make the gravity defying jump off of the top of the tree and reset the past hour and half of my gameplay in an instant (he fresh spawned less than 45 minutes ago). How does a creature that weighs dozens of times more than it, has 4 legs to absorb the impact, and spikes to impale it, die instantly?. Well duh, thats because the hera has something special, just like every other dinosaur!! an omnipotent all powerful glowing circle that ignores the need to touch, smell, or even see what it's targeting. They could literally see a glowing circle in the pitch black darkness while their 100+ feet in the air, blindfold themself, press a button with their big toe, and eradicate your hopes and dreams via blind terminal velocity, and proceed to climb back up the tree with absolutely no delay to be punished by. if you're relatively close in size, and don't forcibly strain your eyes trying to look through the leaves of the thousandth tree you walked by (unless its night time, than your at an extreme disadvantage to the omnipotent glowing circle.) then your dead. and you better have enjoyed the 2 hour queue time, because now there's respawn timers! How do you go from balanced , intricate and enjoyable gameplay mechanics like the cera, to this biological predator missile with feather falling IV. sure its cool (not really) but at least make it a punishable/risky skill shot or something.

yes im still crashing out ab this

[orchid merlin]

It isn’t a juvi again! Stop trying to deceive people

[alpine plover]

Im going to tell you right now you’re exaggerating 50ft, 50ft is not as far as you’re describing it.

[orchid merlin]

Also is that staged by any chance, funny coincidence that the moment you record it jumps. And why were you just standing there?

[storm epoch]

clipping service, i thought i saw him, until i knew i saw him

it looks small on a dinosaur scale, but thats def at least 50 feet

i was a 15-20% stego, and if you look at the size comparision, it might have well ben a juvi

[alpine plover]

50feet is not far, again

[orchid merlin]

No it isn’t. It just looks like it’s far away from the angle

[storm epoch]

if someone jumped off a 100 foot tree, gravity is pulling them down before they even make it 10 feet

[orchid merlin]

It’s patterns were fully developed it isn’t a juvi.

[orchid merlin]

The game isn’t supposed to be 100% realism.

[storm epoch]

it aint supposed to that either

[orchid merlin]

It is

[storm epoch]

hence the reason were in the balance feedback channel

get your defender bias outta here

hera player

i was way too far from that tree anyway

[alpine plover]

Ok, instead of going back and forth over whether it was a sub/adult or not what do you propose to fix this “problem”?

[orchid merlin]

Ad hom fallacy lol

[storm epoch]

end of the message

[orchid merlin]

Herreras should be able to jump far. Also massive coincidence that you were under its specific tree

[storm epoch]

did you not even read it all before comin at e

[alpine plover]

I’m going to hold your hand when I say this, but you can get punished for missing a high jump already.

[storm epoch]

it takes skill to miss an auto target

[alpine plover]

Wdym?

[storm epoch]

theres not many other ways to put that

[alpine plover]

What’s an auto target?

[orchid merlin]

The game has hallucinations doing damadge and your crying about herreras being able to jump from a reasonable length?

[storm epoch]

thats not reasonable

[north elbow]

I rather deal with hallucinations then a ballistic missile from the trees

[storm epoch]

this guy gets it

[alpine plover]

That ballistic missile can be countered if you have the average game sense

[north elbow]

If your someone new trying to have fun, you'll die before you even realize

What hit ya

[alpine plover]

Therefore you learn from your mistake and understand how Herrera works

[storm epoch]

what game sense wouldve saved me there

[alpine plover]

By not standing still in front of a Herrera hotspot????

You were asking to get killed lmao.

[storm epoch]

said hotspot was my migration zone, and i was surrounded by friendly diablos

i was not asking for anything

[alpine plover]

Right doesn’t mean you stand still knowing herreras our around

[storm epoch]

well when i think its in a tree over 50 feet away i think id be ok'

[north elbow]

It's obv your fault duh, your supposed to be flying around on your stego and attach security cameras to be only staring at vertical surfaces to avoid the hera your obv a noob player

[storm epoch]

he might as well be bradley cooper in american sniper

[alpine plover]

I mean bro you were just standing there looked at the tree which I’d assume you knew you would get pounced.

[alpine plover]

I never said that, I’m just saying they could’ve been more cautious

[storm epoch]

bro do you not see how far that tree was

why do you think im in the balance chat

[alpine plover]

50ft is not far lmfao, you’re exaggerating it

[storm epoch]

yeah it was over

[orchid merlin]

Well now you know that they can jump far. So just walk away next time. Easy

[north elbow]

Just fly away on your stego duh

[storm epoch]

if that tree fell over, id be at around 2/3 of the length, much more than 50 feet

eh maybe half

[orchid merlin]

That tree wasn’t that far away. It was just the angle

[alpine plover]

You’ve suggested for it to be punished when it already can btw it either breaks its legs or gets knockdown where almost anything bigger one/two shots it.

[storm epoch]

still too far, hence the balance chat

i dont understand where the need to defend this is coming from

a one shot mechanic from that far should not be welcome in a melee game

[alpine plover]

Because it’s not unbalanced and before you call me a Herrera main, I don’t even play it lmfao

[orchid merlin]

Because of how limited the ability is in the first place. You don’t need to nerf it’s range to the ground because you refused to move

[storm epoch]

bro took it personally

[orchid merlin]

Immature person spotted

[alpine plover]

I never took it personally

That’s what you called duck earlier

For countering your point

[storm epoch]

i alr said make it a skill shot

i gave a problem and a solution and yall love the game so much you think its perfect or sum

chill n see the reason

[alpine plover]

We are hearing you out, we just disagree

[orchid merlin]

Do you know how hard it is to hit a moving target from max height. In your extremely rare scenario the opponent is standing still which isn’t often the case.

[alpine plover]

It’s a simple concept

[storm epoch]

your thought process is a simple concept

oooooh

[alpine plover]

Was that supposed to be an insult?

[storm epoch]

yeah man

[alpine plover]

damn I’m shaking

[alpine plover]

Wait untill you hear about deinosuchus

[storm epoch]

thats balanced

except deino v deino

[alpine plover]

ok it’s still a oneshot tool? And you said you a oneshot tool shouldn’t be present wtf lmao

[storm epoch]

straight age annihilation

[orchid merlin]

Wait untill he hears about omnis being able to pin things it’s size and smaller without the victim being able to escape

[storm epoch]

ik that

balanced

[orchid merlin]

How

[alpine plover]

Either he’s baiting or idk

[storm epoch]

theyre not exactly big

[orchid merlin]

The double standards is crazy

[leaden remnant]

he might be calling it unbalanced cause sometimes you cant see the herrera not sure

[dusky surge]

honestly, i would nerf herrera, but specifically in ground speed. i think the thing moving as fast as troodon is a little silly

maybe... around pachy/cera speed? It can always scramble to trees to survive, I just think it needs to be more nervous on the ground

[orchid merlin]

If herreras were big that’d be OP. Right now it’s size/health is it’s trade for the high damadge it deals

[alpine plover]

I wouldn’t mind a ground speed nerf, I’ve said in the past multiple times

[storm epoch]

not exactly a trade when theres no punishable mechanic

just walks away n clibs up a tree

[orchid merlin]

44 would be good imo. Anything lower than that? I’m not sure

[leaden remnant]

bit faster than pachy probably

[leaden remnant]

maybe 43...?

[alpine plover]

I mean isn’t that the point, for the Herrera player to be unseen, as it is as “ambush treeline predator”?

[leaden remnant]

troodon is 45 right?

[storm epoch]

this guy gets it too

[cosmic pelican]

Yes

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah but like if you can't see it then it's def unbalanced

there needs to be a clue or something so that a 1 shot is actually balanced yknow

[orchid merlin]

Erm omnis can knock herreras out of trees so nah. It dosent work that way

[leaden remnant]

you can easily avoid deinos in like 100 different ways so i wouldn't call it unbalanced

[orchid merlin]

43.5 I wouldn’t mind

[dusky surge]

ya

[leaden remnant]

but sometimes you can't see herreras or even get a clue that they're there which would make it unbalanced

[storm epoch]

thats a pretty specific circumstance

[alpine plover]

The cue is the sound when they change from tree to tree,

[storm epoch]

not balanced at all

[leaden remnant]

yeah about that... there aint no sound

[dusky surge]

ehh, it's a lot quieter now

used to be loud as hell, not so much anymore

[leaden remnant]

it is so silent that you ain't ever hearing dat lizard

[orchid merlin]

You can still kinda hear them

[leaden remnant]

cant hear them even when i chase them around and im 5m away from the tree

so aint no chance you are hearing em 50m away

[alpine plover]

ok fair.

[leaden remnant]

also they sometimes get perfect camo

[alpine plover]

Then simply return that tree cue and wouldn’t that be enough to give awareness that a Herrera is present in the trees?

[leaden remnant]

i remember once playing with some friends, we all were scanning for herreras after one got destroyed by a teno, i was looking at a branch, i did not see a herrera and then the herrera (which actually was there) dropped

[orchid merlin]

https://youtu.be/wMlJa4deKJ8?si=v_zP_IzsCmZSpTka 1:30 they sound like this ign. It’s not too quiet

[leaden remnant]

im not kidding when i say he got such a perfect camo that everyone's brain filled the herrera as a normal tree

because it was straight up invisible

[storm epoch]

make it a skill shot, so it can at least be impressive

[leaden remnant]

and that's way more common than you might think

if there was a way to genuinely know a herrera was there, it would be perfectly balanced

[orchid merlin]

What do y mean by skill shot

[leaden remnant]

a visual clue not an audio clue, cause audio... eh

[alpine plover]

It shouldn’t be too exposable otherwise it’s womp womp for the Herrera player

[leaden remnant]

i agree with that

but yknow give a clue that the herrera is there

[storm epoch]

not an omnipotent glowing circle outlining you from 100+ feet in the air while you cant see sqaut past 20 feet

[orchid merlin]

The noise is enough I would say

[leaden remnant]

uh there is basically no noise

[orchid merlin]

And they are only at hotspots so

[storm epoch]

they got legs bro

[leaden remnant]

like yeah there is but

[orchid merlin]

There is. Their normal jumping sound is still kinda loud

[cosmic pelican]

Some tree bark flying off the tree that the herrera landed on sounds nice to me. Wouldnt even be hard to make, just replace the falling leaves with wood

[leaden remnant]

no sir you cant hear it at 5m away 😭

and a herrera getting on a tree isnt really what matters

[orchid merlin]

That’s a great idea actually

[leaden remnant]

but a sound when it jumps that can be heard

cant easily be heard but can be heard

not like carno ram yknow 💀

[storm epoch]

since it dosent take long to fall, make it do a slight squeal or sum while it falls

or a whistling sound since its aerodynamic enough to cover that distance

[leaden remnant]

yeah probably

[orchid merlin]

I mean you won’t really get jumped in some random tree. Just don’t go near suspicious food sources

[leaden remnant]

smth that lets you know it's there and going after you

[orchid merlin]

It should only be heard if you pay attention tho. I don’t think that it should alert everyone that it’s in the area

[leaden remnant]

^^

it's like with raptors that you can hear them running and pouncing just a bit before they're boutta pin you

and you can see them from really far away + they leave a crap ton of clues that they're there

[orchid merlin]

Ye exactly

[leaden remnant]

something like that that isn't easy as heck to dodge but aint impossible either

[orchid merlin]

If you pay enough attention well done you survived

[leaden remnant]

yessir

when im playing smth small like pachy and i hear ai running i get so scared 😭

i think it's a raptor coming to pin me down

or when im playing carno 💀

[cosmic pelican]

As a galli player I feel u, I almost fell out of my chair yesterday cuz a herd of deer decided to run at me while I was in a forest

Im glad ai works, but goddamn

[leaden remnant]

LMAO

[dusky surge]

LMAO prey animal experience

[leaden remnant]

i was playing carno and heard goat running past me

[cosmic pelican]

Why does galli even have a migration zone in a forest😭

[leaden remnant]

goats literally sound like raptors

scared the living heck outta me

[cosmic pelican]

Best part is all the fruits there are bugged, so the whole zone is just s

[leaden remnant]

cause if a raptor sees you as a carno you cant do jack

[cosmic pelican]

Glad Im not the only one XD

[leaden remnant]

you cant run you cant hide you cant do jack

[leaden remnant]

@leaden wagon rexes gonna be able to knock trees down

the herrera massacre is coming

[leaden wagon]

sure, but why not now

@leaden remnant what if im a dibblo and im trying to nest and i have herras in trees i would like to protect my kids from trolls and you might say find a better spot im not trying to be in the open nesting

[leaden remnant]

great question

[leaden remnant]

ive absolutely no idea

[leaden wagon]

im not saying knock down more like shook

❤️

[orchid merlin]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[leaden remnant]

[hasty coyote]

stand near the kids, when the herreras jump smack them back and they will die.

Or just abandon the nest and move somewhere else. If anything discovers you're nest you're likely going to get harassed by trolls anyway.

[leaden wagon]

but i should'nt have to move

[cosmic pelican]

Looks like mr.herrera couldnt take the heat

[leaden wagon]

i should be able to hit them off a tree that is small/medium i mean dibblos hit stuff all the time when brawling why cant a 3 ton tank do something simple like that

[hasty coyote]

same issue would happen if sub carnos found your nest (I know because me and a buddy just mauled like 4 baby diablos in a herd last night), or troodons, or pteras, or basically anything small enough to hit and run. At least with herrera, once you know its there, its jumps are very telegraphed so you have time to react.

[leaden wagon]

bruh, herras are trolls and kill babys even when nesting so why you defending herras?

[hasty coyote]

because then diablos would just troll herreras by constantly knocking them out of trees. Now herreras have to deal with something trolling them that they basically can not kill. At least if a herrera is trolling you, you can just 1-shot them if they get cocky.

[leaden wagon]

i didnt say tall/huge trees did I?

[hasty coyote]

because literally every species does that. I have ran through nests as diablo, I have been mauled by beipi and pteras while nesting as troo.

[leaden wagon]

bro troodon take 30 min to grow there small?

@hasty coyote there going to add it to the game its something so simple that it feels right to add

[hasty coyote]

yes, my point is you can't say an entire playable is just trolls when literally EVERY species has trolls

[leaden wagon]

why dod you play herra

to troll

small cratures troll

not everything

[hasty coyote]

sometimes simple things have unforeseen consequences. Like how they nerfed stuns to make it feel less awful, but now pachy has a hard time comboing hits together because it has less time.

[leaden wagon]

im in game playing dont have time to talk

[hasty coyote]

I generally don't, currently I have been playing more diablo and cera. Either way, the exact issues you have with trolls can be done on literally any dino. Just because its small does not immediately mean its a troll.

[cosmic pelican]

Its 80 mins with perfect diet

[hasty coyote]

herreras are physically small, yes, but their growth time is more on par with omni because its basically as big of a threat as omni.

[cosmic pelican]

Its only 15mins less than omni iirc

[hasty coyote]

just that herreras are bigger threats to smaller things while omnis are bigger threats to larger things. Unless the diablo just stands its ground and gets constantly pounced, herreras can not take down a diablo, but omnis can definitely take down a diablo.

[round crescent]

Thats the point of herra, idk why but the herra make huge bleed making the pray run or stand untill another hit (the two options are mortally dangerous for the pray).Then if you are a good player you can kill a diablo by a herra.

[hasty coyote]

Yes, but a single hit on something like a Omni can bleed it out, that’s the point. But as a Diablo, you can tank like 2-3 and still live just fine if you run. However, I have seen herreras kill diablos, and it’s mainly because they stay in the area where multiple herreras constantly pounce it and it can’t hit them in time.

It’s just that most people don’t have the experience to fight herreras because they play so differently to most others.

[obtuse ocean]

I havent been playing in ages, but are not diablo supose to be hell for small tiers ?

Or is it "easy kill" for small ?

[round crescent]

when the pray runs the herras can chase them in their habitual places(with a lot of trees like the higlands)

[hasty coyote]

Eh, really depends on how good the Diablo is. It’s like teno but all its power is in the front. So if you can avoid the front, it will die. If you don’t, you die.

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh, ok got it. So if omni get hit by the diablo. Its dead or running for it life ?

[hasty coyote]

If they chase they burn stam, and herreras need a good amount of stam and time to climb into the trees and jump down.

[round crescent]

My bad experiencies with the herras dont says the same...

[hasty coyote]

Sprint attack deals like 150 and the base attack does 275, and you can base attack and alt with 1 knockdown. If the Omni lives it ain’t living by much

[obtuse ocean]

ahh nice, thanx : )

[hasty coyote]

There are a lot of factors. What were you? How far did you run? Where did you run? Did the Herrera just walk up to you and bite you while you’re sitting? Etc. so it really just depends.

I have not had to deal with a whole pack of herreras, but I def know they are scary. Most the time I deal with 1 who is bothering me right after a fight and I still get away from them.

#1 tip is to keep moving. It makes it incredibly hard for them to hit you.

[round crescent]

I mean,supouse you are a diablo that after get hited by a herra runs to a bush the herra track your blod and guess where most of the bushes are...near the trees the herra climb you dont see that and may be dont hear for then die.(If it dont work at first time to the herra it will work sooner or later)

[round crescent]

well the carno drains the blod so fast...

[hasty coyote]

2 pounces aint enough to kill unless you're small. If they tracked me to a bush, then I know they are after me. So I run/walk out to a spot with no trees, even if I'm out in the open.

[orchid merlin]

Don’t rest in a bush. Go to a field

[round crescent]

Other predators can notice of you

[hasty coyote]

still, a single hit aint enough to kill unless you're already low on stam, they were high in a tree, and/or got a headshot. your options are to either run to the open and sit or run til you need to walk to regen stam and walk for a bit. Find a good spot to sit down.

[orchid merlin]

Then simply don’t rest. You won’t be bleeding out in one hit anyway

[round crescent]

If you are hurted it will be easyer to kill you,imagine a diablo that was hited by a herra and see a cera running to them the diablo have disadvantage.

[hasty coyote]

same can be said about literally every fight. Is pachy op because it can fracture you and then a stego Could walk by and kill you? Is omni op because they force you to stand your ground and then a herrera Could show up and pounce you?

[leaden remnant]

over 1 hour

[round crescent]

In any moment i said any dino is OP,i speculate that the herra si really anoying,and is a little rat...

I think that in our disscusion we have 50% reason for each side.

[hasty coyote]

I had assumed you were saying herrera was more powerful than it should be, hence op. I don't disagree its annoying to deal with, but its manageable. However, I don't really see a way to change herrera without making it feel worse to play.

[round crescent]

In MY opinion:the herra can be changed doing less bleed,because i think is too much for their size.(And because in real life its IMPOSSIBLE to imagine a herra killing a carno or cera or diablo)

[hasty coyote]

Then we run into the issue of herrera not being able to hunt its own size range effectively. It could be fine tuned a bit but I'm unsure if theres a good middle ground where herrera can still ambush its size tier and not punch up a bit.

[round crescent]

May be doing that the damage is more proportional for the large of the pray?Like:Herra fall in a omni kill them to the half more or less and falling in to a carno kill tehm to 1/4-1/5.

[orchid merlin]

Walk away from the hotspot✅
Problem solved

[orchid merlin]

Herrera is not a rat🤬😡

[round crescent]

Not all.

[round crescent]

I mean they are so fast then they fall and run...

[orchid merlin]

No it’s bleed shouldn’t be touched at all. It can’t kill things bigger than a dilo with bleed. If you die to one as a cerato for example, that’s just skill issues

[round crescent]

The dilo have special resistance for the bleed

[orchid merlin]

Uh what

[hasty coyote]

dilo does not, cera does

[orchid merlin]

Dilo has poor bleed resistance

[round crescent]

then you should kill them

but you need to fall in the corp or head,not n the tail...

[orchid merlin]

Kill the cerato?

[round crescent]

teh dilo

[orchid merlin]

Yea I can kill then. My point is that Herrera’s can’t kill things bigger than a dilo

[round crescent]

oh so sorry ii dont read that part

But a carno can

if its alone

he have MASSIVE bleed,really you cant imagine

like 1 hit left you to the 60% of blood of the carno(a good hit)

[orchid merlin]

Yea but after that the Herrera can’t do much. If it comes to the ground it dies

[round crescent]

depends of a lot of factors...

[orchid merlin]

Such as

[round crescent]

?

[orchid merlin]

What are the factors

[round crescent]

the skills of the 2

for example

the terrain

the health of one or the other

the growth

...

[orchid merlin]

If the carno isn’t fully grown and gets killed how does that mean that Herrera’s bleed is OP?

[round crescent]

thats not the point,it was a example

[orchid merlin]

Ok

[distant torrent]

@round crescent I’m 99% sure dibbles knocking down players by the tail is purely ping. why?

because of the many hours of dibble I’ve played, I’ve hit many tails, heard the hit noise, and never got a knockdown unless it was the base of the body on my end

I’m sure a lot of the body knockdowns i got seemed like tail knockdowns to other players or looked like 6+ feet away knockdowns

[round crescent]

Maybe you are rigth but it happens to me all teh times in whole servers

[distant torrent]

the server ping have been notoriously bad lately it seems. the only time I saw my ping drop to a stable 50-60 was when the no ai server dropped to roughly 120 players from 150

150 it’s 90-100

[round crescent]

well then they probably need to increas the conexon of the servers or anything that make not hapen to a diablo knockdown you in the tail,but i can swear in WHOLE the times that i got hited by a diablo for his charge i got knockdown(in the tail).

[distant torrent]

yea it happens with many other things aside from dibble. I regularly got full body hits from someone who chewed my tail tip on my screen. I’ve also gotten full damage from carno rams by the tip of my tail before

ping can be evil

[round crescent]

Anyway the developers will notice about the problem is the ping.

[distant torrent]

I think they have noticed it and have been trying to fix it to the best of their ability

[round crescent]

You are rigth in that

[hasty coyote]

yeah from playing diablo myself, its not that the tail hits count, its just latency making it seem so far. Even I notice it because they fall over like 5 feet from where I hit them lol

[distant torrent]

I’m betting those poor suckers get knocked down 10+ feet away on their screen lol

[round crescent]

By my perspective of the hunter i look like i fall rigth there,and he starts hit me...

[hasty coyote]

5 minute google drawing showing roughly what it looks like:
Red=what the carno sees
Green=what the diablo sees

[round crescent]

well i see the diablo in de green diablo but he hit me in the tail,then i fall...

[hasty coyote]

bit of an exaggeration to show the effect, it is probably closer to something like this, but this is hard to read since its a bit hard to do true overlays on google drawings lol.

essentially,
On your side you are further ahead and he is further behind. So it seems like he was behind and hit your tail.
On his side, you are closer back and he is farther forward, so he prob hit you in the leg.

[leaden wagon]

RIP

RIP CARNO

[round crescent]

This is how i see all:The red is where he hit me.(This is an approximation)

[hasty coyote]

yeah, which is exactly what I'm saying. Now move the carno back slightly and the diablo forward slightly because of latency. Then you see how the diablo sees it

[round crescent]

but knockdown in the same place like he hit me good

and starts hit me when im in the floor

and how many meters are 5 feets?

[hasty coyote]

5 feet are about 1.5 meters. Plus, I mean from the diablo's perspective you move to where you got knocked down on YOUR side. On the diablo's side it hits slightly behind where you are.

[leaden remnant]

dibble has an extended hitbox

[hasty coyote]

the hitbox honestly aint that bad

[leaden remnant]

the head hitbox is extended

[leaden remnant]

i mean only herrera is worse

and it's got a hitbox (while jumping) of about twice its body

the fact that smth can damage you without physically touching you is beyond stupid imo

[hasty coyote]

it looks about right from my perspective, I have missed people that I should miss and hit those I should hit. However, it is a bit hard to see my face with the frill in the way lol

[frail bobcat]

bro what?

<@&933486433342222376> not sure if that yellow lad did a racism

[eager saddle]

@elder sandal not a single dino can smell living stuff or should be able to. Have you tried getting something like a deer? You really shouldn't be able to starve that easily as a dilo.

[leaden remnant]

@wise glade you don't vomit without a good diet, either you consumed bones, rotten food or the game did the thing again

[gleaming silo]

Could mutations give a perk as well as a nerf in the future? This would make them easier to balance.
For example: +2% speed & -5% health

I am especially fond of the idea of cannibals / killers of the own species in non canni species getting marked possibly by becoming an albino or hypermelanistic. Not sure though if this effect would be better given by the canni mutation or countered by it, or neither, just allowing players to profit from the kills bit not countering the markings.

[dusky surge]

i hope you realise how insane perks like that would be for balance

effectively, all semblances of what balance we have now would be doneso

for reference, with a 5% speed boost, cerato goes from being slower than pachy and teno to being faster than both. Any minor speedboost massively disrupts matchups

[gleaming silo]

I mean sure, you’d have to rebalance the perks.
Yes I agree! About this matchup problem. My thought was to balance such mutations by reducing health significantly
*+2%speed

[dusky surge]

yea, but that doesn't really balance them

see, now you have animals that ENTIRELY rely on their speed to escape a threat no longer having that advantage. They literally have to take a speed mutation to counter it

you also have no way to tell who's got what buffs, it's a mystery until they start killing you

[gleaming silo]

Agreed. Speed is definitely one of the hardest things to balance — I remember legacy.
The latter point kinda is similar at the moment though. So I don’t see having mutations with buffs and nerfs as much of an issue. Speed was only an example. Could be increased bleed but decreased damage or any combination of stats I guess.

[dusky surge]

it just creates a colossal metagame, and turns mutations from "fun survival thing" to literally "Who can minmax their dinosaur the best to kill as much things as possible"

[gleaming silo]

True, but doesn‘t that already exist in principle with current mutations?

[dusky surge]

yup, and I hate every single mutation that does that

[gleaming silo]

We have the recover health on eating and recover stamina on dmg and swim speed — at least last time I looked.
These plain buffs are a kinda boring compared to minmaxing the dinos — don’t have to be strong buffs in my opinion to be fun.

Well thx for your input 🙂
Do you have any thoughts on marking killers of their own species / cannis?

[dusky surge]

Ehhh, it's difficult to do

Because defending yourself from cannis now makes YOU a canni

Which means that you're now in a difficult position where MORE people will try to kill you over percieved cannibalism

[gleaming silo]

XD fair point I guess
depends on how it‘s implemented, whether on kill or by mutation. The latter would probably be rather ineffective since hunting your own for fun is not punished.
Difficult to balance for sure.

like implementing such an effect

[dusky surge]

The mutation one CAN work

Because that's entirely opted into, you have to choose to get that

[gleaming silo]

What if the mutation simply removes debuffs you‘d otherwise get but marks your skin in some way.
The example debuff you’d otherwise get is ‚guilty conscience‘ and prevents you from eating or restoring stam for 10mins XD Not saying this specific example is a good idea but would give some incentive to take the mutation if repeated canni kills are desired

[brave estuary]

What about a speed boost during a storm or rainy weather?

[dusky surge]

would still be really bad and meta tbh

i dont think any speedboost should exist

[brave estuary]

Fair... Also, allo is getting its ambush speed boost, right?

[leaden remnant]

might

[brave estuary]

I just thought of one. A speed boost when you're not spotted by another dinosaur. Which literally is brisk from world of warships 💀

[dusky surge]

would be weird and probably still cause problems, because how do you even determine that?

[brave estuary]

Collision sphere. If a dinosaur walks into the collision sphere the speed boost gets deactivated.

The sphere would have to be pretty large

[dusky surge]

wouldn't that be insane for endurance preds tho? simply use the additional speed to ensure the prey doesn't get away, and it'd also act as a "dino detector", which seems rather strong to me

[brave estuary]

It can, if you were a carnivore. Small tier herbivores could benefit from that though. But I don't really think you'd notice that you're running slightly slower suddenly if you're in something like a jungle. Probably in an open field you'd notice

[alpine plover]

This is a path of titans ability btw

[cyan river]

the balance of the raptors is very cool...

I was playing as a Tonentosaurus and the dude just grabbed my tail with the right mouse button and bit me brilliantly, realism!

[distant torrent]

@dusky surge only issue is accelerated prey drive. that just needs to be removed as a whole tbh and not changed into being able to scent a live player

scenting a live player whether wounded or not is always bad. there are many situations where close proximity escape and hiding is the only option and would basically be completely nullified if being able to sniff wounded creatures was available

the rest are great

[hasty coyote]

I agree, I think the rest of them are cool, but dying after a fight because someone had that perk just feels awful. I'm forced to sit down and chill out after a fight and you're gonna make it easier for people to find me?

I'd rather it be a different boost for tracking, like make footsteps glow from further away and/or appear more often even if the dino crouches/walks.

[orchid merlin]

#balance-feedback message @late bobcat a nerf to its ability to fight dibbles is kinda unnecessary. They already get hard countered by them. As for its main ability, considering how situational it is, it’s fair to get heavily rewarded by it.
It’s ground speed needs to get decreased to 43-44kmh. That’s the only “nerf” it needs.

[loud geyser]

can you seriously not buck anymore

[alpine plover]

You can but it’s better to just brush them off any solid surface (tree,rock, etc)

[loud geyser]

how

i press every button

[stark knoll]

Hold E

[loud geyser]

i did

my friend did too

[stark knoll]

Were they on your side or were you pinned to the ground?

[loud geyser]

on my side

[stark knoll]

If you are experiencing issues with your controls (can't move camera, unable to court, etc) then please try wiping your config files in localappdata.

1. If running The Isle, exit the game.
2. Press the Windows key
3. Type %localappdata% then press Enter.
4. Find "TheIsle" folder. Open it.
5. Open the "Saved" folder.
6. Delete the "Config" folder. Note: This will reset any of your custom settings to their defaults.
7. Restart the game. The issues should be fixed.

[loud geyser]

worked thx

[dusky surge]

@distant torrent @hasty coyote fixed it

[hasty coyote]

that one is also a bit odd, but still better than what we currently have.
Like it only helps if you are killing things. So if you narrowly escape something or don't manage to kill it, it does nothing. It also encourages killing babies to gain a heal bonus.

[dusky surge]

true, but frankly its within the flavour of the mutation and encourages more of a risky hunter type deal

accelerated prey drive inherently implies that somewhere across the line, you're hunting lmao

[hasty coyote]

I guess but it also is bad for group play, since you may not deal the finishing blow. So its really only good for solo dinos who punch down, aka carno

[dusky surge]

i mean... i dont really have an issue with mutations only being specifically good for certain playstyles lol

there's already many mutations like that

[hasty coyote]

it just seems to niche and antithetical to what the rest of the game encourages. Which I guess can help build diversity, its just odd to me.

[alpine plover]

I agree the accelerated prey drive one is iffy.

[dusky surge]

it's hard to do when it basically flat out implies hunting lmao

i'm trying to work within the flavour of the mutation itself

[alpine plover]

It feels more combat lenient rather then a natural mutation unless you are working around combat/natural mutation type deal.

[dusky surge]

I’m trying to avoid flat “win more” buffs

[hasty coyote]

It isnt terrible, just not what I would like for a mutation. I'd rather it deal something with tracking or chasing. what exactly I'm unsure.

[dusky surge]

Where the opponent inherently has less of a chance because you have a stat advantage

[hasty coyote]

maybe something like "while following tracks, you regen stamina 15% faster while trotting/walking"

that way its good for keeping up with prey thats escaping, but doesnt just let you run them down

[distant torrent]

yea it’s definitely a lot better but my only question is

when the mut cap is no longer 9 and it’s all 27, how much will all the stam and health regen perks stack up lol

[hasty coyote]

could be abused so it would def need some limiters like no tracking packmates or you have to track something smaller.

[alpine plover]

example being, say you are a cerato and you have found 2 tenos. You hunt and kill one teno but still damage the other one. Now you receive a body buff + accelerated prey drive mutation assuming the fight will be somewhat near the other body. Now remembering you’ve injured the other teno and it’s probably lost a decent amount of stamina defending its friend and protecting its basically a gg no chance for the other player.

[hasty coyote]

question is, will we get all 27?

[alpine plover]

I feel this is what makes it iffy.

[distant torrent]

that’s a good question. but why would they all be visible?

[hasty coyote]

eh, I don't think thats necessarily an issue since the hp regen aint much, its just increasing base healing (which is nearly useless unless you sit down). I just think it rewards the wrong type of playstyle

[hasty coyote]

unfinished ui that leaves room for adjustment perhaps? Also, they could make it so you can't take a lot of mutations that all effect the same thing.

[alpine plover]

Yeah what I’m trying to imply is it’s combat lenient over something more natural/environmentally used.

[dusky surge]

IDK but it might be concerning lol

[hasty coyote]

my 12th gen cerato (I have all healing mutations)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401480390528729091/1081008629047627807/IMG_1332.gif

[dusky surge]

I’ll rework it again lol. I live for a challenge

[rapid flume]

#balance-feedback message jesus dilos

[dusky surge]

I'm thinking more Jason dilos

Just walk from the bottom of the lake like Jason from Friday the 13th lol

[rapid flume]

lol

[dusky surge]

would be pretty scary lol

[slim dragon]

@nocturne ice What do you mean by "get stunned half of the time" ?

Also how does it scale with non-FG diablos ?

[nocturne ice]

The duration of the stun should talk as long it does for an adult now.

More the half of the time.

[slim dragon]

Ah you mean like a shorter stun

[nocturne ice]

yes

So the bigger dinosaurs actually get a chance to hit back

[nocturne ice]

Also for this I would do it with same percentage.... give me a moment to form these in english words.

(english isn't my first language)

But here is an example for a 1.5t heavy Diablo:
Dinosaur weight </= 1.5t --> gets knocked down
1.5t < Dinosaur weight </= 2t --> gets stunned like now
2t < Dinosaur weight </= 2.5t --> gets stunned half of the time
Dinosaur weight > 3t --> no stun at all

[slim dragon]

Wouldn't it be easier to just make it a percentage ?
So you don't have to explain and make calcultations with every scenario like a 2.175ton dibble

[nocturne ice]

yes that is the idea.

I just haven't calculated it yet

[nocturne ice]

But that is exactly the idea

[slim dragon]

100% of dibble's weight = gets knocked down
133% of dibble's weight : gets stunned
166% of dibble's weight : gets stunned for half the time
200% of dibble's weight : no stun

[nocturne ice]

yes

[slim dragon]

You made all calcultations with whole tons so it's easy

[nocturne ice]

it is just very early in the morning for me xD

Well what do you think about it?

Any ideas/corrections to improve?

[slim dragon]

I think it would be more balanced, yeah
But the wording makes something unclear

Does something that is for example 125% of dibble's weight get knocked down, or stunned ?

[nocturne ice]

stunned

[slim dragon]

Ah so it's up to 100% gets knocked down, up to 133% gets stunned, and so on
Therefore the last part with things being 2x its weight is redundant, because anything starting from 167% of dibble's weight doesn't get stunned at all

[nocturne ice]

yes that is correct

so shell I change my wording for better understanding?

So how about now?

[slim dragon]

Yeah it's better

[nocturne ice]

Thanks a lot 🙂

[dusky surge]

why not
<=100% of dibble's weight = knockdown
<=150% of dibble's weight = gets stunned

150% = nada

[slim dragon]

Because I'm not the one who came up with the numbers

[dusky surge]

i reject the other numbers and embrace my own

halfstuns don't exist

also that math doesn't add

"Dinosaur weight up to 166% of Diablo's weight --> gets stunned for half the time
Dinosaur weight above 200% of Diablo's weight --> no stun at all "

What happened to 166-200?

[slim dragon]

I mentioned the 200% part was redundant

[dusky surge]

ah

[nocturne ice]

cause it was a mistake

but I can live with your numbers aswell

[nocturne ice]

How do you like it now?

[dusky surge]

halfstuns don't exist still lol

[frail bobcat]

Also RNG does not sound fun

[dusky surge]

oh yea

"get stunned or not at all"

ugh

[frail bobcat]

Cant wait to lose a three hour grow because my opponent hit a 2% chance and did not get stunned a few times in a row

[graceful swallow]

I mean technically 167% to 199% weight and up could decrease the time of stun by 1% equaling getting stunned 49% of a stun, rather then 50% (half of time) of a stun but that's a complex way of doing it, but it is possible but pointless because there's better ways

so it woudnt be half stuns but rather slightly longer or shorter stuns

[dusky surge]

okay but that's still not how stuns work

[graceful swallow]

unless they are 150% or 50% of weight, there would never be a half stun

yeah prob not just saying

[dusky surge]

ya

[molten fern]

good thing ego stegos now have something that can deal whit them

too bad they cant add a carnivore that does the same

[dusky surge]

They already had it

If anything, the recent nerfs to stego and the addition of diablo have just mad "ego stegos" diablo players

[molten fern]

what takes down a powerswing stego using enviroment other than diablo/stego?

[golden coral]

If you have to rely on terrain to actually defend yourself, you're not a good playable. And even with powerswing, if you can take them down when they use jab, you can do it with the swing, it has less reach, and if the stego runs, well now it's no longer at the terrain in question. Stego was never very good, it was getting better when rekit happened, but now the powerswing is so severely nerfed it's almost worse to use than the jab. Diablo is overall more powerful, and almost all other playables are better designed and more fun/feels better to play as.

[molten fern]

thing is stego whitout power swing can defend itself against all carnivores in the open. terrain makes you unkillable

[golden coral]

... No, no it can not. A stego in the open, even with powerswing (as of current) is very weak and useless for being a stego. The jab is clunky, easilyl baitable, and only has one good angle to use. The swing, with current nerfs, has cooldown plus massive stamina cost, and is thus not very effective to use either. Terrain for stego is more of a neccessity, if it wants to live at all. And even with terrain, it's not unkillable at all.

There's a reason terrain is used as much as it is, because without it, you're not a good playable

[leaden remnant]

well... no

the reason i say no is because this man who you are replying to beat the absolute crap out of dibbles with powerswing and i saw it first hand

aggressive dibbles literally flying everywhere

quite literally playing golf with them

and as we speak im playing stego to test how good it is, dang man

at 2 tons already being a nightmare for ceras in the open speaks volumes

[golden coral]

Soundsd far more like those were some very bad dibbles, considering they have the advantage overall in the matchup. And if you're a "nightmare" for grown ceras at 2T, then again, very bad ceras.

[leaden remnant]

i mean all of them were charging me so

[golden coral]

Like, a 2T stego isn't powerful at all, sure it has the bulk, but again, bait out attacks, which is very easy

[leaden remnant]

having 4 ceras trying to nibble me with dat charge bite and getting 1 shotted is... fun

[golden coral]

You know the moment it powerswings it can't do that again, and you know the jab angles, I'm not sure what to say

[leaden remnant]

yeah but a stego who knows what he's doing won't get baited

what you can do is bait the attacker or in this case the ceras

[golden coral]

Then you'll get hit, which means you're now in trouble, because you're not really hitting them on the way out if they know what they're doing

[leaden remnant]

not if you hit them first

[golden coral]

Which you won't, without trading, you have to basically trade to guarantee a hit

If there were four of them vs you, they could literally dogpile you and win at that point

You won't kill them all in time, much less if they also make you vomit, due to the whole cooldown and clunky attacks

[leaden remnant]

not at all

[golden coral]

You kind of do, unless you're very lucky perhaps

That's generally how it's done, wait until they're guaranteed to get hit to attack, which also means they're in range to hit back

[leaden remnant]

not really

well if you need to trade in order to get a hit that's not an issue with stego

with you i mean you personally not everyone yknow

[golden coral]

Except it is related to how the stego attacks work, rather than the player

Hence it is an issue with stego

[leaden remnant]

not quite

you can win that fight as a 2 ton stego, it's not easy but it's not close to impossible either

[golden coral]

Maybe if the ceras sort of let you, or aren't coordinated, but not really otherwise

[leaden remnant]

if they are perfect players you ain't winning

but they have to be perfect

[golden coral]

How so, the attacks are clunky enough to bait very easily, so in order to avoid being baited, you have to basically let the target get far too close to guarantee the hit

How is that not an issue with the stego? And no, they don't, they can literally dogpile you if you're only 2T

That's 2K health, with a 2x head multiplier from 150 bites, that's 7 bites

You're not killing them all before they go nom on you if they decide to set their minds to it

[leaden remnant]

you can bait them yourself, force them to retreat, create space, etc

[golden coral]

And the moment one falls, now they got even more of an advantage xD

[golden coral]

Except you can't really bait when you're the one that has to wait for them to attack

[leaden remnant]

use your brain to make the scenario favorable for you and you'll win

[golden coral]

You don't have that much in terms of options on what to do, being that everything else sets the pace and not you

[leaden remnant]

no sir

[golden coral]

Except there isn't much to do, aside from using terrain and all that

You're far too limited in what you can do as stego, and thats part of the issue

[leaden remnant]

not at all man

i don't wanna be like that but the issue here is you lacking the ability to create favorable scenarios for you

[golden coral]

So what else is there to do, that the opposition can't just work around due to setting the pace?

[leaden remnant]

nothing i said is easy to do but nothing i said is impossible to do either

[leaden remnant]

you can break their pace

[golden coral]

Cause what's a "favourable scenario" then

They have the speed, you do not, they by definition are the ones that set the pace

[leaden remnant]

you can break their pace

[golden coral]

And while I would agree with you before the rekit nerf, not after it, since now you just lose mass stamina and have the cooldown

[leaden remnant]

a scenario in which you have the best odds

use terrain, confuse them, etc

[golden coral]

Again, you can't break their pace when you're limited in everything and they are not

[leaden remnant]

play mind games

[golden coral]

... Right, so you're back to using terrain, which I pointed out

[leaden remnant]

you can

[golden coral]

And if you can't even specify a scenario, then you should probably not just say "I can't" as an argument

[leaden remnant]

you choose what to do, their only way to kill you is if you commit a major mistake

[leaden remnant]

well im not gonna narrate an entire battle to you

[golden coral]

You're the one claiming "make a favourable scenario", I'm saying you're very limited in that

You don't have to, just give some examples?

You say you can break their pace, I'm saying you can't because anything you do, they can respond to far better than you can respond to anything they do

Again, stego issue, clunky attacks, excessive costs and cooldowns, making your responses, no matter how good, worse off than anything else

Hitting someone at the edge of your reach is doable, but also very baitable. Letting them get in closer opens you up for attacks by both the target and the others, since you have to wait to be sure they can't get away. While you can "chase" with the rekit, it now costs a lot, so you'll soon find yourself without stam, and the cooldown gives a very obvious opening.

[nocturne ice]

#balance-feedback message As I really like the turn radius of the dibble I must downvote your aspect. Tho I totally agree on the rework of the hitbox. This is just weird at all. So if you let the turn radius out, I would upvote your point.

[golden coral]

So if you got ways around that, do tell, because just saying "create a favourable scenario" kind of applies to all sides, that's what both parties are trying to do. I'm simply arguing that stego is really bad at it. And that if a bunch of dibbles can't take one in the open, it's terrible dibbles, because the powerswing is nowhere near that terrifying anymore, if it even were since dibbles could knock over, and still stun stegos. And the same kind of applies to ceras vs a 2T stego. You have 2K health, you're not a tank, your power is not up there, and while the powerswing is better than the jab, it's reach is more limited, and has the obvious issues.

[golden coral]

More so that you have to play perfectly and then you might survive, because that scenario is quite in favour of the ceras, and would be with even two or three of them, much less four.

[leaden remnant]

sorry was fighting some ppl

[leaden remnant]

no not really

there's ways to break their pace such as behaving in an unexpected way, changing that behavior at a certain point when they're used to it, etc

[leaden remnant]

tbf it is in favor of the stego

[golden coral]

See, you can give some examples. Much better! And yes, I'll grant you that, but my issue is that they can respond to those things far easier than you can respond in return.

[leaden remnant]

not by a lot but the fact that you can fend off practically anything is pretty scary to me

for example, just now i was fighting 5 dibbles and beating the absolute crap outta them

[golden coral]

Sure, you can try to pretend to be "afk" or whatever trick you can come up with, but one, in many cases it relies on them falling for it (and doing so sufficiently), and two, they can still respond in return better than you can. They can take advantage of tricks better than the slower, clunkier playable.

[leaden remnant]

i did end up dying (ruled server so imma get a fg stego back 🔥) but man i put up a crazy fight against em

[golden coral]

Why would you get it back if you died?

[leaden remnant]

because it wasn't officials

[golden coral]

Not that it has anything to do with the discussion, it just confuses me xD

[leaden remnant]

it's a ruled server and the rules state that what they did was completely against the rules so

[golden coral]

Oh, okay, thought it was just a normal fight

[leaden remnant]

i see

[leaden remnant]

i mean yeah they can but idk man

me personally if you can 1 tap a lot of things you should have to be the smartest to win against big numbers

4 ceras with full bile... boi

either play it like a boss or lose

[golden coral]

I can't agree there, by all means it very much looks like in favour of the ceras, even with two ceras vs a 2T stego or thereabouts

[leaden remnant]

because if not, the best stego players would literally be unkillable

[leaden remnant]

i'll give you one thing, it's that the powerswing is buggy as heck

for example i tried to do the moving powerswing to attack a dibble and the attack instead did a normal, standing powerswing

[golden coral]

Despite them being able to knock you down, or stun you. Not sure what that says, but considering dibbles seem to be really good at murdering stegos, I don't know how that went down

[leaden remnant]

they did stun me n stuff but some of them really went flyin

[golden coral]

They can survive a powerswing though

[leaden remnant]

the fight was like 2 minutes before i died tho

[leaden remnant]

many if they are hit in the face

[golden coral]

If you hit their face, they can survive more, but even on body

It doesn't do more than 2.5K, if even that, with the running one

[leaden remnant]

the thing that i see here is that sure stegos shouldn't be dogwater against everything but they shouldn't be the apexes of the land yknow

[golden coral]

So yeah, it really sounds like the dibbles were just not that coordinated

[leaden remnant]

they need to be killed by something

[leaden remnant]

they were in vc

[golden coral]

No I agree there, but I disagree on what should be killing them

And in general how stego feels

[golden coral]

... That just makes it worse xD

Though to be fair, talking in VC does not equate to being coordinated

[leaden remnant]

vc players are typically speaking more coordinated

[golden coral]

Yeah, they ought to be, but no guarantee

[leaden remnant]

and the fact that they went in one by one and then dogpiled me when i got stunned...

[leaden remnant]

i understand

what do you believe should be killing them?

[golden coral]

Basically, anything allo/alberto size up, allo/alberto in pair/trios, acros solo/duo, rex/giga solo, and so on, counts for the herbi side too. In general, stego should be the anti speed/agility playable.

[leaden remnant]

i see

[golden coral]

So anything that relies on getting in/getting out without taking a hit, should struggle severely vs a stego, compared to taking on a rex/trike

[leaden remnant]

we don't have those yet tho

so we gotta settle for what we have for now

[golden coral]

I know, but I am also not in favour of balancing for "temporary"

[leaden remnant]

im not really either

[golden coral]

Because it A, sets a bad precedent for what a playable can or can not do, and B, the playables will still have to get used to the thing at some point, so might as well

[leaden remnant]

but at this point it's either that or make stego unkillable

[golden coral]

But I'd also rather just disable stego for now

I don't think it should be playable on officials for now, I'd rather they did that

[leaden remnant]

probably

from what ive seen, stegos either suck beyond human comprehension or are legitimately unkillable

[golden coral]

And most of that seem to depend entirely on terrain usage

Which as you well know, I take all kinds of issue with

[leaden remnant]

yus

i think terrain usage is a good thing honestly

[golden coral]

And that was the original comment, "stego in the open can fight off everything" to which I claim it can not

With the jab only, even

[leaden remnant]

nono i was talking about ceras

not for example raptors

[golden coral]

I know, but the response I gave back then was for that, and the comment was well, very general

[leaden remnant]

provided that the playable itself doesn't suck balls in the open

[golden coral]

But that was to the other guy

[golden coral]

Which is kind of how I feel stego works, the rekit has helped, but the nerfs to it kind of made it back to being very limited. Four attacks, and you're over stam threshold. And I know how much you like the stamina system xD

[leaden remnant]

lmao

[golden coral]

But that's part of why I say it's baitable, and that you are so very limited, you can play tricks, but most of what you do is clunky, costly, or both

Admittedly a 2T stego can run faster, so that might help xD

[leaden remnant]

i don't think the powerswing should be used for everything yknow

[leaden remnant]

oh it absolutely does

[golden coral]

Nor do I, I'd rework both the jab and the powerswing if I could

[golden coral]

Figures, speed is very vital

[leaden remnant]

imo it's better to have it as a very powerful but limited attack in teh sense of dont use it if you're not 100% sure you're gonna land it

[golden coral]

That'd be fine, if the other attack wasn't so clunky and limited too

[leaden remnant]

because then the 4% cost powerswing comes back and stegos are unkillable

[golden coral]

Nah, I do think the standing would do fine with 5%, but you could put both at 10% and just remove the cooldown

I think the cooldown is my biggest issue with it, since I could otherwise agree that 5-10% cost would be fine, especially now with damage nerf

But the clunkyness is what gets me, the same for the jab, the furthest reaching jabs are just so bad to use almost all of the time

[leaden remnant]

i see

[leaden remnant]

i agree with this

they feel like ass

[golden coral]

So most of my complaints about stego and it's being too baitable, or "can't really break their pace" comes down to a mix of A, adult stegos being slow, and B, their attacks being so clunky in almost all aspects

[leaden remnant]

me trying to powerswing a dibble:
the game: nahhh im giving you the normal jab whether you like it or not

[golden coral]

Why I stand by that stego issues are not a stat issue, it's a design issue

The rekit was fine, and obviously a 4% cost on the attack (I think it was 2% actually) is insane. But I expected something like 5% for it, and a bit more for the running. And not a cooldown, because that's what makes it so clunky again

[leaden remnant]

i expected it to work

at least work properly

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, the "two attacks on the same button, but not ALT" is a bit weird

And then, if that's still a thing, the running swing attacking the other side of where you're looking, which is so off from every other attack

[leaden remnant]

the thing is tho, till there's something to obliterate stegos i don't think stegos should be crazy good

because then nothing can kill them

we got raptors rn to pin em down in mass numbers and ceras to try their luck against one

[golden coral]

I get that, I just would rather have proper but disabled stego for officials than a gimped/unfun version but on live

[leaden remnant]

probably

[golden coral]

But that's more so just two different ways of handling the balancing

[leaden remnant]

stego was added way too soon 👍

[golden coral]

Similar to how they might do rex after all

[golden coral]

And added as AI instead of playable

And from there, we've had the entire design issue

Create a AI designed playable, make it playable. Then you get a playable that doesn't feel good

[leaden remnant]

me personally, i don't think it's difficult to play stego, i just think it's annoying that the attacks do whatever they want

[golden coral]

It's not really difficult, any more than any playable really

My complaints have always been that it's unfun/doesn't feel like stego, and bad because clunky/limited in what it can do

[leaden remnant]

i like teno cause it feels good

feels agile, strong, etc

[frail bobcat]

Stego almost felt like a legacy playable

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure it was more "free" in legacy

[frail bobcat]

Anyways, I hope that the pounce + buck changes hopefully make omni a fun playable to fight with and against

[leaden remnant]

hopefully yes

cant wait to see em and test em

lil rats moving around on your body

[golden coral]

And somehow, stego is more of a stego in legacy xD

[golden coral]

At least that should mitigate terrain usage, and make bucking good as well

[golden coral]

Yes, now can I have a stego as well designed as teno, and I'd be happy!

[frail bobcat]

Finally no more 40 minute fights because your opponent decided to stick their head in a wall

[leaden remnant]

also why i like raptor

feels agile, fast, etc

[golden coral]

No, now you just die no matter what you do, unless we get actual counters xD

[leaden remnant]

and actually requires skill to play

[golden coral]

@leaden remnantBtw, feel free to record some of your stego adventures, I would like to see how you play it and how it goes

[frail bobcat]

Hope that buck is a actual counter now

[golden coral]

Or well, if not recording, you can tag me and tell me all about how it's going

[leaden remnant]

https://medal.tv/games/the-isle/clips/irkgNfuhV6BqlbRyB/d1337jc1bFCv?invite=cr-MSw2elAsMjUxOTE1ODY2LA

[golden coral]

It's supposed to be. You can even do damage to the omnis, with some critters. I'm hoping stego would be one of them, but we'll see.

[golden coral]

Woop :D

[leaden remnant]

this was when the fight was about to end

did some beating here and there, and well, wall gaming

[golden coral]

Will have a look

[frail bobcat]

I doubt that stego is one of them. i think that it will he reserved to agile animals with big claws n stuff. I think that the majority of playables will not have the damage buck

[golden coral]

But if your "favourable scenario" is just stand next to wall/terrain, you deserve a kick up your rear xD

[orchid merlin]

#balance-feedback message 💯, why did that even get downvoted lol

[golden coral]

(And yes, I'm joking with you xD)

[leaden remnant]

yessir

[leaden remnant]

oh hell naw no chance against 5 dibbles

stun, animation lock when powerswinging, bonkers

[golden coral]

Well, stego does have that tail reach, but yeah, I'm probably asking for too much

Though you'd think an omni pounced on the tail/back slot, and the stego wildly swinging its tail while bucking would throw that one off pretty quickly at least

[frail bobcat]

I think dilo and cera could get it, since they are literally biting in the animation

[frail bobcat]

Making location matter would actually be dope

[golden coral]

True, allo was said to have, but stego do flail its tail and hits its side during bucking too

[frail bobcat]

Stego yeeting off stuff of its tail during bucking is something I would support

[hasty coyote]

just seeing that I can tell those diablos were not the most experienced. Very predictable charges, all just dogpiling on each other, some even using the spar attack, some turning away from you so you can hit their back, if they knew what they were doing you would be cooked lol. Still tho you put up a better fight than I have seen from some stegos lol.

[leaden remnant]

wasnt bad, wasnt the best either

[hasty coyote]

but in my experience, in a 1v1 (diablo v stego) its slightly stego favored since they can stun you before you get in range to hit them, but 2v1 is very favored towards diablo, 3v1 is death.

[hasty coyote]

yeah they werent awful, just could def be much better.

[leaden remnant]

2v1s are very doable, 3v1s... yeah about that

and 5v1s are just joever 💀

[distant torrent]

because it’s ping issues that affect other playables, not just diablo. the hitbox is fine. the latency is not fine

[leaden remnant]

the hitbox itself is broken

latency only makes it 100 times worse

[hasty coyote]

this summarizes my experience fighting stegos: https://youtu.be/BrDF2zRP58A?si=wTDO6_TJbI1PT2RK

I just think the main issue is that diablos can stun stegos and their heads can shield so much damage. Stuns are easy to change, but the damage reduction should just have a cap imo. Either anything above a threshold is not reduced, or a limit on how much it can reduce (say like 500). Either way, it would prevent diablo from just tanking insane amounts of damage without a scratch.

[hasty coyote]

in my experience as diablo, its fine. Its just that it sprints so it seems broken due to letency

[leaden remnant]

nono you can get hit behind the dibble

and im talking about 30 ping situations in controlled environments

[hasty coyote]

huh? I have never experienced that.

[leaden remnant]

when i play dibble in practice fights, more than half of the hits i hit are bs

i see them and i call them out as bs

[orchid merlin]

No it isn’t. I’ve tested it and it’s broken

[orchid merlin]

Least broken herbi

[distant torrent]

nah. it’s latency and the servers. when I was testing with teno a while ago with two accounts, I noticed there was some.. strange stuff that would happen. I’d move a teno to face one direction, and on my other pc it’d be facing the complete opposite direction lol

even with low ping

[orchid merlin]

https://youtu.be/YzUEVYARHCM?si=pmqXUFvVoEntwW7j

Yea no

[distant torrent]

yea that does seem a bit weird. has it been tried with other attacks instead of alt only?

[orchid merlin]

I suspect that it can also knockdown opponents via a tail shot. Pachies can I’ve tested it

[hasty coyote]

that aint the alt, thats the hold lmb

[hasty coyote]

but yeah thats a little insane, I have not seen that yet. Have yall tried the running attack because thats the one most people seem to be saying is rigged?

[hasty coyote]

That is also potentially possible because I have hit people at the base of the tail and they fall, not tail tip tho.

[orchid merlin]

Yea I think it’s bad aswell, but I’m not home atm so I can’t test it : /

[distant torrent]

I’ve never gotten a tail knockdown during all my many hours of dibble. if it is a thing, it’s very inconsistent. I’ve even bit hit on my tail as a cera and only got the hurt sound with no knockdown. a lot of other situations I can’t confirm if it’s tail because latency is so bad

[orchid merlin]

Yea I’m still unsure about that. It needs testing

[nocturne ice]

I've already said why I did so.

[orchid merlin]

I see, was just asking in general

[molten fern]

you are welcome to try my stego (1 fg grown in my play time) in any server and i will defend you in open. If stego players are so bad they cant defend themselfs whit stego its only a skill issue

[molten fern]

no playing as a dibble i can hit peapole i should not be able to hit. The more i get used to it the gurther away i can hit them

[golden coral]

I'd like to see you do that vs a group that knows what they're doing, I'm sure you can find some if you ask around (I play solo so I rarely if ever group up). And it's not a matter of skill issue, stego is simply a bad playable. You can't defend yourself very well, especially not in the open, hence why terrain is used almost all the time. You could just as well argue it's a skill issue if a proper sized group vs a stego can't take it out. Tenos can, diablos can, omnis can, troodons can (surprisingly enough), even ceras can. Carno might be one of the few, alongside pachy and of course herrera and dryo and galli that can't do it.

But if you've successfully defended yourself, in the open using no terrain, vs at least 6+ omni or troodons, or at least 4 or so diablos/tenos/ceras, and survived. Good for you, but that'd be the exception and considering how clunky stego is, how bad the attacks are, it really seems far more likely that those were simply bad players, or maybe you're just the best stego there ever were. But considering some of what I've seen, it does seem to come down to the opponents being bad, rather than the stego. But it does not change that stego isn't a good playable, and is rather weak for what it could and possibly should be.

[hasty coyote]

I'd genuinely need to test it at this point. Maybe I use the attack too late so it always seems fine on my end, idk.

[molten fern]

omnis against any playable whitout getting them off on the nearest tree is death. but stego in any part of the map has something to get them off and does not need to camp the terrain after. diablos in a group slaugther stego thats true. troodons are a joke. multiple ceras have the best chance.

but even multiple ceras are easy to deal whit

[molten fern]

yeah try using it where you normally cant hit peapole and hold left click down while running you dont even have to be close and youll hit

and then if you add in desync anything over 100 ping you have a 3 ton tank whit a working cannon

[golden coral]

Troodons are not a joke, surprisingly enough, they are quite scary, but mostly due to the passive stam drain I think. Well, the argument was fighting in the open, so no usage of terrain then during the fight. No matter what happens after the fight, that's not really relevant. Ceras can do it, and while you can fight back, at least in theory, it's not that easy at all. Even with the new rekit, since it got so nerfed, it's almost back to how it used to be without it. Dibbles currently are pretty good, I'd argue they're overall better than stegos but that might come down to what you're trying to measure. But they do seem more powerful.

But the entire point was that no, stego can't just fight off any carni, or herbi, in the open very easily, if at all. In some cases terrain is more or less a must, in others it's just far more useful than it should be. But no amount of skill makes the attacks any less clunky, or cost any less. Or that you puke in only five bites from a cera no matter what for example. The issue in most cases lies with stego not being very well designed, and only really saved by stats. And in other cases the issue is things like lack of scaling (cera bite) or other things like the passive stam drain (though at least now stego can attack when out of stam).

[molten fern]

yeah whit omni any playable in a desert just dies easily fact is there is not a single place like that in gateway. and yes troodons are a joke. dibble group destroys a solo stego (good stego needs that) bring yourself and your friends in a admin server ill figth you.

and to add in you have fair chance to defend yourself against everything kill a few members of the attackers realize you have a skill issue and use terrain and become unkillable.

[hasty coyote]

ceras are even more scary if they get the reduced damage taken from larger species and eat to heal. They can just tank stego swings and chug random rotten corpses to heal to full.

[molten fern]

pretty sure power swing still one shots cera. And both gastro and tactile endurance need to be removed from the game

[alpine plover]

@proud anchor #balance-feedback message No offence, but this feedback has no logic behind it.

[proud anchor]

It's subjective, really. I could go on and on about how they're unkillable, but truthfully... I'm tired of explaining the obvious.

[alpine plover]

They’re very much killable I can tell you that

[hasty coyote]

on a body shot yeah it should still kill a cera, but a reg swing won't. Also yeah a lot of the combat mutations should be removed, nerfed, and/or adjusted. But thats a diff topic

[proud anchor]

It's interesting how few adult dibble bodies there are at any point in time. That's all I'll say.

[alpine plover]

Right. So correct me if I am wrong, but what you’re implying is because there isn’t a dozen dibble bodies on the floor, it is right to nerf dibble so it can be killable?

[proud anchor]

Incorrect. Again, I'm not going to go into it. Many have already stated similar points of view. It's the new shiny ~ no one wants to see it suffer like Stego has.

[alpine plover]

and that’s fine otherwise if you don’t want too, I disagree and we can leave it at that.

[proud anchor]

Let's just say this... As a FG Dibble (First time fighting with it) I was able to fend off a group of 3x Troodons with zero problem.
Then, a group of 3 FG Omnis, after bucking and learning that wastes ALL my stam, so with that having burned all my stam, I got fully pinned by all 3, and again... Without stamnia, got up, and killed all 3 of them, without exploiting walls to knock them off.
Then, killed 2 Dilos, who got many, many, many bites on me.
These were all X vs 1. First time ever playing the character, against people with countless more hours than me in the game.

I'm pretty sure that covers it.

Introduce a second Dibble, and forget about it. Throw however many lived you like at them, they likely won't go down.

The consensus we had come to;
2 tons was fine. They say 1.5, I think that'd be too heavy-handed.
3 tons is too much. It puts it outside of the game's intended balance parameters.

Juvies are not a part of the conversation, because anything sub adult is indeed killable, as you said.

Basically, they need to become less of walking fortresses. They're currently when full grown, previous Stego levels of overly tuned, and the Stego is meant to contend with Rex, as an example.

[alpine plover]

This quite an interesting gameplay considering omnis have field day with dibbles bad turn radius. Must’ve not played it well because I have seen gameplay videos of omni packs wiping out dibble herds on the hordetest. Fortunately, dibble is staying at three tons as it is confirmed by dondi, but I believe there is a valid reason behind this.

[proud anchor]

I mean... I was baiting and using the 180 turn effectively. A good dibble has presented a similar challenge, but I mentioned, I got fully grappled, and survived, but not only that, won the fight.

We could say it was a draw because I had to switch to an extremely defensive stance and I had low blood, but I did kill 2 of the 3 before we reset. I was nowhere near fully dying if I didn't have to. Not against a single threat remaining.

[distant torrent]

tbh I feel like 3 Omnis shouldn’t even have a chance against dibble. if they can have a fair chance against it, then I’d hate to see how fast a group of 5 or a full pack can wipe a 4 hour grow playable lol

[hasty coyote]

you also need to consider that the other players may not have fought diablo either and lack the experience. Plus, many of those fights were things that SHOULD struggle with diablo. Dilos aren't really made to try and fight things that big, troodons struggle with things larger than teno, but omnis are omnis so they can be given a free win button and still throw their lead away. There are also a wide variety of different playstyles for diablo with wildly different counters.

[frail bobcat]

dibble is kinda countered by omnoi

[hasty coyote]

The main issue is that we don't have the main counterpart to diablo: aka allo

[proud anchor]

@old mantle Am I wrong here? I feel like I'm being pretty fair to your efforts.

Apparently like we were joking... It's just a "Skill issue lol"

[distant torrent]

yea. anything with good turn tbh. ceras are mad counters too

[hasty coyote]

though I can agree, diablo is def slightly overtuned in a lot of areas, the mass numbers are not entirely caused by it

[proud anchor]

It's blood pool is very, very, very high. Speaking from experience.

Damage wise, I'd say the biggest threat were the 2x Dilos. If it were 3, I'd probably died.

[hasty coyote]

its as high as a 3 ton dino's would be. Plus its head takes 0 bleed damage

[proud anchor]

That's what I'm saying... It's too high. 3 tons is too much.

[alpine plover]

3 tons is probably for it to deal with allo

And we know dondi is adamant on not changing it

[proud anchor]

If it's being blanced strictly around another playable, then the scope is not for the roster, and it shouldn't be on the diet of those which shouldn't be agressing it.

[hasty coyote]

it may be overkill currently, but we shall have to see. Either way they can nerf it in other ways and it should be fine

[alpine plover]

Tbf a cerato pack can threaten a dibble herd very well

I doubt it’s strictly being balanced around a future playable with no vision regarding the current roster

[proud anchor]

I believe it, if an entire pack of Ceras is a "Threat" to a single Dibble, then it's probably way stronger than it needs to be.

[alpine plover]

I never said single, I said “herd”

[golden coral]

I literally did tell you I don't have a group, but I know there are ones around, you can probably ask around and find. Here's the thing, you don't need a desert, not all terrain works anyway, and it's still using terrain, so you admit you can't fight in the open. Troodons are not a joke, they got a buff even (not that troodons should ever threaten a subadult or older stego, but hey, stego is not as terrifying as it might seem). And no, stego did not need that, stego was never good, people just think so for no good reason. And again, I've explained the issues with stego as a playable, it's not just "kill them", if it was that easy, well, then you'd have a proper apex, wouldn't you. But stego isn't, and isn't really meant to be anyway. But it could be better, and terrain shouldn't have to be used to be "survivable", nor should it be so good as to make anything unkillable (aside from deino of course, or ptera, that can do that, stego can not. Stego is not unkillable, even with terrain).

[golden coral]

Sounds fun!

[golden coral]

At least the powerswing does oneshot carnos, so there's that!

[golden coral]

I think they intend for dibble to be an allo/alberto match, which might mean it requires another omni or two, and another dilo or two, to take on. It seems like they want it to be this big, like in legacy apparently. Also I did see you acknowledge bucking being terrible, hence why I said bucking should be a proper counter if we're going to not rely on terrain too much. Which hopefully the new pounce and buck changes will achieve, or at least get closer to.

[proud anchor]

So, 4 Ceras vs 6 Diablos...?

I just don't see a world where this matches up in balance.

[golden coral]

You'd think omnis and troodons would be really good vs diablo

[proud anchor]

Again, I'm not someone who used the character before it, either. I was just mashing buttons and getting constantly stuck in animations, and still somehow came through... It's strong, and if it's meant to contend against Allo, I feel bad for everything else on the roster.

[golden coral]

But apparently even the critter that should have weaknesses vs flanking critters don't, and the one that shouldn't, do

To be fair, I don't know, I'm speculating about the whole allo/alberto thing

Just thinking, if it's meant to be vs allo, then you might want to add another omni or two for proper power scaling

[proud anchor]

"They're totally killable with Troodons"
and..
"Grapple is overpowered"
Troodons might as well have been a joke, and the Omnis had the stars align.

[golden coral]

Since abouut 3 omnis works for carno, and allo is quite a bit larger

[alpine plover]

Are we talking on equal level of skill or?

[golden coral]

Well, I said I imagine dibble would be weak vs you know, the things attacking it's obviously undefended flanks

Didn't say it is, because strafing and the run/turn might be too good

[proud anchor]

That's what I was spamming, mind you.

[golden coral]

As for grapple, yes it's overpowered, it seems far too easy to get a grapple on things that aren't actually almost dead

But then I also think the grapple should be a finisher

[frail bobcat]

Also, dibble is harder to fight because of funky hitboxes

[golden coral]

So maybe the issue is the whole "turn on a dime" while running thing

[alpine plover]

That I agree with

[golden coral]

Since it seems like that is what kind of negates the entire "can't defend flanks" very well

[proud anchor]

I think that's all fine, honestly. It makes people skilled at the character more survivable.

But HOW survivable it is, is a problem, imo.

[frail bobcat]

fought a small dibble today, second omni came in. boom, fight is over. I hate grapple

[golden coral]

Well, if they want dibble to be that large, then we'd have to look at something else to change

[alpine plover]

Who doesn’t

[golden coral]

I don't think it has any bleed resist, so it's just well, a large dibble being as resilient as its size would suggest

[proud anchor]

I don't mind the 180. It makes the Dibble sprint, so if it's bleeding, that's huge for any bleed based dino.
It uses stam, and causes an animation, isn't easy to do under stress because it's a skill check, and it's FUN.
However... I don't think we should nerf it's manuverability and moveset just because it's HP is too high.

[alpine plover]

I wouldn’t mind that as well

[golden coral]

Can't be much of a skill check, didn't you say you've never played it before and pulled it off quite well

[frail bobcat]

they should look into its hitbox and its stun ability against heavier target and then it is good

[golden coral]

But sure, I'm not saying we should change that. Just that if the devs want large dibble, then thats not going to change

[alpine plover]

I was confused about that too ngl

[golden coral]

So even if it might be better to lower hp, well, if they want it large they do.

[proud anchor]

I was flubbing it constantly, and still winning. I told you ~ I wasn't using the dino skillfully, and I was coming out on top.

[alpine plover]

That’s interesting because I’ve seen terrible dibbles and they don’t even try the 180 tactic

[golden coral]

Well, apparently doesn't require much skill then, probably because it's very manuverable

That tends to allow for a lot less skill

But if you never played it before, and still played so well, then it's apparently not difficult to play

[alpine plover]

I only agree because it’s wanky hitbox helps the dibble player in this case, but disagree if it’s hitbox was fixed

[proud anchor]

Whatever man. I'm not here to argue with your bad opinion on skill check mechanics.

[golden coral]

I don't think it's the stats that are the issue, but rather that dibble simply is pretty easy to play

Though broken hitboxes would be a different issue

[golden coral]

What bad opinion? You can not argue that "Ive never done this before" and then argue "this requires skill" and then go "I did it all the time no problem"

[alpine plover]

Right but it feels wrong to say dibble is something that doesn’t need skill

When in reality it does but since the wanky hitboxs help it, it gives the envision of not needing skill

[golden coral]

No matter mechanic or otherwise, if it's a skill check, then by definition you should not be able to do it without well, having the skill. Which you wouldn't have if you never did it before or practiced or anything

[golden coral]

No, I'm sure it requires some skill, as much as any other playable

Which is in turn helped by having speed/agility (for a dibble at least), which tends to offset skill a fair amount

[alpine plover]

Fair

[golden coral]

Just that people tend to really overstate skill, or what requires skill. If I can go on dibble, also not having played it, and pull off the run/turn 90% of the time, then it's not a skill requirement at all. It's just something you can do very easily.

[proud anchor]

Yo that's crazy, because I never said that. I wonder where that quote came from. Sounds like you're speaking emotionally.

Get a grip.

[golden coral]

Really? Let's see then, shall we.

#balance-feedback-discussion message
You saying you never played dibble/fought with it, still managed to do well.
#balance-feedback-discussion message
You saying you were baiting/using the 180turn (run/turn, what I'm referring to), effectively.
#balance-feedback-discussion message
#balance-feedback-discussion message
Same. You saying you were doing those things.
#balance-feedback-discussion message
You claiming it's skill.
#balance-feedback-discussion message
#balance-feedback-discussion message
Same. Claiming it's a skill check.

You literally, in your own words, say first that you've not fought with dibble, but you pulled it off, and used the turn effectively. You then claim said turn is a skill check. If you can jump on, never having done this thing before, and somehow do it perfectly fine over and over, it is not a difficult thing to do, it does not require much in terms of skill. If it did, you would fail, over and over, until you've practiced and actually learnt how to do it. Then it could be said it requires skill, and it would fit with it only being done by players that have actually aquired said skill.

If you want to take the "quote" literally, sure, you never did say exactly those words. But you did say words that boils down to exactly that. There is no emotion being involved.

[proud anchor]

That's not how quotes work, buddy.

[golden coral]

Right, so very sorry then that I did not use it in the way you expected. Doesn't at all change the argument.

[proud anchor]

Those are called opinions.

[golden coral]

So in your opinion then, being able to do something easily, with no practice, is skill reliant?

[proud anchor]

Bad ones, which take my words out of context entirely without a moment's hesitation to attack the person rather than the argument.

[golden coral]

I literally addressed the entire argument. And you going "That's not how quotes work, buddy." would be you attacking the person rather than the argument.

[proud anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/obsessed-with-me-why-are-you-so-obsessed-with-me-mean-girls-amy-adams-regina-george-gif-17120105

[golden coral]

I am not. I am simply pointing out that your claims do not check out. As well as pointing out that if the devs want dibble to be as large as it is, modifying it's agility would be more likely and a better option to make it easier to kill and less easy to play.

[hasty coyote]

3 omnis for carno is a thing of the past... 3 pin carno

[golden coral]

In this case, it still kind of works for the argument. Since dibble is larger, then you'd add one or two omnis. In the case, it was only three, but maybe if there had been another one or two, it would have gone differently.

[frail bobcat]

guh

wait, they even pin in on full stam and everything

[hasty coyote]

yeah I'd still personally say that it should generally take more than 3 omnis, especially since I'm unsure if 3 omnis can kill a diablo with bleed from pounce due to stamina constraints. It would be a difficult task to say the least

[frail bobcat]

I hate grapple

[golden coral]

Fair. I imagine 4-5 omnis might work out.