balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

no i LEGITIMATELY think they will justify it by going "well, it's rex"

the issue i generally think is stego-centric lol

[viral jungle]

ngl 38kmh rex sounds insane for its size. deino is 18kmh

[dusky surge]

the food is still THERE if a stego camps it

[dusky surge]

deino is a gator lol

[thin mantle]

Stego as an entity in the cosmos was cursed by shamans thousands of years ago to be irrationally hated for some reason

[viral jungle]

you must not have seen gators running

[true ginkgo]

Yeah there might be a bit of that. Because of sophie being the classic famous stego, people view it as a small animal.

[dusky surge]

rex is a therapod which spends most of its life as a speed demon

[viral jungle]

they better let me grab something with rex arms as a juvi

[dusky surge]

lol no

you're going to do the grabbing with the mouth

[true ginkgo]

gators arn't actually fast. their speed is explosive, but actually measured in a straight line they're kinda slow.

[solar folio]

Probably you and guy above are right, also I kinda forgot that rex and trike subs can kinda fulfil a mid-tier niche so yeah

Let's just say I personally find smol dibble aesthetically better, I expected a small fast (relatively) potato full of violence not a 3T bus

[true ginkgo]

it's just they go from log to max speed in a heartbeat, and that same heartbeat you're in their jaws.

[viral jungle]

theres a scientific theory that rexes arms were the same size from juvi to adult, so that when it was smaller it made it easier to grab and catch things. which becomes useless as it becomes full grown and they now look tiny. Since it says the muscle density in the arms is strongg

[golden coral]

It really does seem that way. And no mods or server settings to fix it. But maybe one day!

[true ginkgo]

As this is the most famous stego, people kinda view the animal as allo bait.

[sonic flame]

See, I feel like it would've been fine if we got the cooldown, or the stam costs, but having both rn is seriously overkill imo

[thin mantle]

One day🙃
Also hi!!

[golden coral]

It's stego. It has to be useless and unfun. But maybe rex and trike will also get cooldowns on their power attacks and massive stamina costs. 15% for rex crush + 5 second cooldown or so. And whatever funny thing trike gets, if it gets anything.

[dusky surge]

i agree. i think what it mainly needed was that roar to always play to help choreograph the attack and allow reactions quickly, which it got, but on top of all this stuff? Yea idk man

[thin mantle]

Rexes primary attack with a 5 second cooldown would be hilarious

[solar folio]

1 bite in a day

But very strong

[golden coral]

It would at least be fair to stego, but somehow I doubt people would be okay with that

Or they could add cooldown to omni pounce, would also be interesting to see

[viral jungle]

i feel like once they are released they will unnerf stego, as i remember them saying before it is 6tons and not its full size

[golden coral]

I have no idea where the "not full size" comes from. I know that realistically, stego could get up to 7.5 or so T, maybe even 8T, but I don't think the devs have ever mentioned anything about that? But maybe they will, honestly though I doubt it. Stego seems to have been relegated to "don't be good/fun" as a playable, if not by the devs then by the players. Just look at reactions to dibble being this powerful, how powerful deino has always been, and yet its always stego that is hated, despite never being as good as either really.

[viral jungle]

its something that was said a while back so i couldnt point you to where it was said but i do remember it being said

[spiral kindle]

2 ton diablo still fed 3 carnos to almost full 3 ton is way more riskier carno cant even stun diablo anymore.Cant really kill diablos anymore

[slim dragon]

Well, carno is a small game hunter so it makes sense that it can't hunt an animal almost twice its size

Although carno is also designed terribly wrong for its intended niche currently

[viral jungle]

well devs did say carno supposed to hunt small game

they need to give carno a little extra oomph so that it can be the bane of utahs again

[spiral kindle]

here we go with a small game hunter statement even tho yesterday me and my 2 friends killed 3 diablos in a herd of 8 doesnt seem small game to me, also that same day killed many more fg diablos

2 ton diablo was perfect

3 tons is like what can contest that

[golden coral]

None the less, they've said it's what they want it to be and do

[viral jungle]

the next 20 playables which are all slated to be 1ton+

[golden coral]

Just because you could kill some apparently rather bad dibbles, does not mean carno is meant to do that

[spiral kindle]

so then make diablo 3 tons in a future patch rn he belongs back to 2 tons

[slim dragon]

If I manage to kill a fg deino with a dryo, does that mean dryo is designed to be hunting deinos ?

[golden coral]

Even at 2T, carno shouldn't be hunting dibble

[viral jungle]

i dont think its that easy

[golden coral]

Given enough dryos, you might be able to do that if it's on land, if only by literally body blocking it until it dehydrates

[solar folio]

Deino's natural enemy

[true ginkgo]

https://tenor.com/view/allo-allosaurus-evrima-the-isle-magy-gif-24816295

[spiral kindle]

u dont think its that easy?programmer changes the value then the QA team just needs to verify that it works then it gets published just like how they changed its weight 3 times already lmao

[golden coral]

Yeah but then they'd have to change the model size to match

The dibble we have is about 3T, and looks it

[solar folio]

It's not easy to balance it properly with all other playables to be both viable and not op

[viral jungle]

if he belongs to 3tons bc they are beefing him up for competition, tough for others but they gotta deal with it bc its where its at. itll give people plenty of time to not mess with it. Instead of a random bait and switch 6 months from now and then ppl cry bc dibble weight got changed suddenely

[viral jungle]

idk if you noticed but things break easily in this game. Kinda not a good idea to just go and change weight values and stuff every couple of days

[spiral kindle]

wich they have done many times this hordtest by your logic

tell me why 2 tons is bad cause it is the ideal weight for this current roster

[viral jungle]

we dont balance for the current roster

[true ginkgo]

2 tons would have been fine if we got a 2 ton looking model

[viral jungle]

we put things in where they should be and do micro adjustments when things fill out

[slim dragon]

Now I'm waiting for them to increase galli's weight so it isn't filled with helium anymore
And to reduce omni's so it isn't made of uranium

[viral jungle]

deino was added to the game when there was i think 4 playables only. They didnt balance it to fit around the others

[spiral kindle]

lmao what....They have changed many things in balance history cause it didnt fit in the current roster

[true ginkgo]

The issue was that for some reason, we got given legacy sized dibble with irl dibbles weight. Leading to a helium balloon animal.

[golden coral]

What, no? I meant the visual model size, was always 3T, now they've just upped the stats to match

[true ginkgo]

And gradually the weight has been moved up to fit the actual model size.

[spiral kindle]

diablo does not look 3 tons 2 tons it fit perfectly

[viral jungle]

changing a utah or carnos stats to balance around things in the current roster makes sense bc a carno isnt getting that much bigger or smaller. its in its final position with micro adjustments to be made later.

[slim dragon]

I wonder why they went this way instead of downsizing the model tho

[golden coral]

The ingame model does look 3T, at least from what I've been told

[viral jungle]

you cant just add in a dinosaur and nerf it by 2 tons and then change it 2 years later

[true ginkgo]

the thing dwarfs tenonto in dimensions.

[solar folio]

I think coz its animations also should be adapted to fit both size and speed

[true ginkgo]

I assume big dibble held nostalgia value for the devs. Dondi made comments in the past about wanting to keep big dibble.

in legacy, dibble and allo was kind of a classic pairing.

[solar folio]

So we should wait for styraco to get a small ceratopsian.. (not as small as proto or ava)

[true ginkgo]

Putting styraco as 1.5 tons might work well.

[slim dragon]

If styraco is smaller than dibble it's gonna be weird

But I guess it'll make sense gameplay-wise

[true ginkgo]

It could also be made 'leggier' than dibble, so easier to animate to move around at a nicer pace.

[spiral kindle]

carno dwarfs diablo

[solar folio]

Carno is skinny

[spiral kindle]

this is allo but its tiny

that aint look 3 tons

[slim dragon]

where the f did you get that size chart from

[true ginkgo]

that's a size chart. not in game size

[slim dragon]

Oh wait it looks like Nova's chart
But not updated since dibble's release I guess

This is the size of a would-be 1.5 ton dibble

[spiral kindle]

they havent upscaled it

since then

[slim dragon]

It's not an official chart
It's made from guesstimates

[viral jungle]

why does that just look like a huge omni

[spiral kindle]

carno should be , well used to be 2.1-2.2 tons they nerfed him and teno down to fit with the roster i believe im not sure

they didnt down size carno when they did that

[slim dragon]

That was before health was made to be identical to weight, so unrelated to game balance

[spiral kindle]

which is why he looks bigger than diablo

[slim dragon]

Also they did

[solar folio]

2 ton carno with its current speed would be terrible

[spiral kindle]

fr?

[solar folio]

Cera would go extinct

[slim dragon]

Carno used to tower over stego (also stego was undersized)

[viral jungle]

yeah but my point is that carno is in its final position with MICRO adjustments to be made over years. omni isnt magically turning into 800kg. when they put stuff some places its usually where its at for its final runtime with small micro adjustments to balance carnos going to 2tons would be another micro adjustment

[true ginkgo]

overall sizes, health, and weight have been gradually shifted around to match. with some weird exceptions

[spiral kindle]

they will prob buff ceras weight in the future

[viral jungle]

and by "place" i mean its position in the pecking order based on the roster and how it interacts with established roster

[slim dragon]

I don't think so

Cera seems to be fine where it is

[solar folio]

I'd keep things as they are tbh

Just want ceras bile be more annoying for its enemies

Want them suffer even after my death

[spiral kindle]

yeah but didnt u just say that they balance for the future not the current roster wich is dumb by the way

[golden coral]

It seems like that only applies to some playables and not others xD

[spiral kindle]

Real.

ah yes lets give already the most dominant species in the game a charged swing With a 3 second cd can run while holding, longer range more dmg, applies CC and has no stam cost

[viral jungle]

by the future i mean their final place in the overall grand scheme

[spiral kindle]

they gave that so it can fend off against rex

rex aint even in the game

[viral jungle]

its for the future

[spiral kindle]

so that means there getting rid of it going into the live build right

since this is the hordtest

[viral jungle]

no, why would they remove its feature complete

i think you arent understanding what im trying to say

[spiral kindle]

mhmmmmmmmmmm lemme see cause rex aint in the game

me personally i think it should be in unofficial servers only and like an option u can enable for the attack wich by default if u have rex enabled it also enables it

[golden coral]

I mean, stego was utterly bad before that, and now with the stam cost and cd, its back to being even worse. Stego is one of the worst playables, and it needed the rekit to be even somewhat good, except they then proceeed to ruin it.

[spiral kindle]

what was bad about stego before are u living in a different universe?

[golden coral]

So yeah, stego apparently got shafted to be useless again, in current roster at that, while dibble and omni gets to be more powerful

[golden coral]

Clunky jab, very stamina reliant, couldn't really offer any offensive pressure, overall just bad in combat. Stego was really bad, simple as that.

Rekit made it somewhat good, but then they had to ruin that of course, because stego can't be allowed to be any good at all

[solar folio]

It was easily baited out of stam, had very predictable attacks and unable to fight at all when it has no stam

[spiral kindle]

very stamina reliant? it can still swing when it has 0 stam also a good stego that uses terrian is very very hard to take down without your pack members dying due to it

[golden coral]

It's just strange, stego was never really any good, deino was always far better. Deino got a harsh life now, which they could have applied to stego too. But instead they decided to make stego bad.

[golden coral]

Yes, now the old, still bad jab attack, can be used out of stam, but it's still a bad attack, and the new one, well, it was ruined so

[spiral kindle]

a 3 second cd doesnt ruin the most op ability in the game rn

[golden coral]

Literally, ceras could take on a stego, deinos in pairs could, omnis and troodons could and can, tenos could, dibbles very much can now and most likely could before too, and so on

[golden coral]

Considering the ability is far from op, yes, yes it does ruin it

the swing isn't even that good, the only real good part was that you could move while being ready to attack, and that the attack itself, at least the standing one, wasnt as clunky as the jab

Now with the CD, its even more "clunky" and with the extreme stamina cost, it's not worth using anyway, especially not with new omni grapple

So yeah, they successfully rekitted stego, only to then remove everything that made it something of a good playable

[spiral kindle]

your saying this as if stego should be able to run at 57km and 1 shot

[golden coral]

Maybe deino could get a cooldown on the lunge, or omni get a cooldown on their op pounce to pin, or something, so they too can struggle with actually being able to do anything

[golden coral]

No, I am saying it as if stego would be treated as well as any other playable

Carno might be the only other one that's treated rather badly these days, and maybe pachy, though that is mostly how omni just folds it again now with grapple

[spiral kindle]

by your logic that means teno is bad

stego is fine(in the live build) idk why u are saying it needs more treatment

[golden coral]

How so, teno has lots of stam to use with its attacks, is agile and decently speedy, and overall a good playable. What do you see being so bad about teno

[golden coral]

I'm saying it should be allowed to use its new attack, the actually somewhat good one, like every other playable can use their attacks. Put the standing stamina at 5%, the running one at 10%, put the old jab at 4% and let that one be used out of stam like an alt. Remove the cooldown, and there you go.

Now you can properly use your attacks, with a reasonable stam cost, and it'd be fine

[spiral kindle]

teno has worst range than stego around the same punishmentframes/ end lag more burst dmg quiter when running higher bite force way higher bloodpool/health cant be lunged by a deino unless u are in the swimming animation

oh and lower water drain

[golden coral]

Teno has far better abiltiy to pressure, and decent range, plus multiple attacks. Its possible the endlag is bad, in which case that should be fixed. And yes, stego has higher stats, it's a lot larger, that's just how it goes. Everything else can be lunged, I guess that makes every other playable bad then? If we go by that logic...

If teno has terrible endlag now, then that should be fixed, because it just makes combat bad. But it's still no cooldown, and teno can move around more effective than stego can

So you have better options to react to something

[spiral kindle]

only omni and cera have the agility to punish a teno tail slam

thats a good thing

[spiral kindle]

not saying teno is bad i think it fits the roster perfectly as the "combo master"

[golden coral]

I don't think teno is bad, you're the one that used it as an example

[golden coral]

Not sure cera really should be able to, and omni needs nerfs overall, but that's an omni problem, it always fluctuates between being stupidly op or ruined by bugs and so on

[spiral kindle]

i was implying to your logic

[golden coral]

But compared, teno is overall seemingly better than stego as a playable, and at the very least, before it got odd endlag, it was. So not sure how your example even works there.

[rigid tulip]

Idk if you guys have played teno as of late but its hitboxes are TINY on all of its attacks. Which is a serious problem with desync

#balance-feedback message

Why not just reintroduce pounce-miss punish along with nerfing grapple thresholds? Increase chance of death of bad players whilst also limiting the oppressiveness of good players. This along with a significant buff to bucking would make omni more reasonable but still absolutely perfectly fine.

You cannot tell me omni would be bad in this state. Certainly not worse than dilo or carno are rn.

[sonic flame]

This chart reflects DIabloceratops at 1.5 tons, which is not what the model reflects

This would be a ~3 ton Allo compared to a 1.5 ton Diablo

[spiral kindle]

yeah i know ive been told

[sonic flame]

This is both of them compared to what's in game

[spiral kindle]

Yeah someone already showed me those like 3 hrs ago

I still think Diablo at 2 tons fit better maybe in future buff it to 3 but that does take some work to be fair.

[sonic flame]

imo 2 tons is a better weight for the animal's niche, but 3 tons makes the model consistent with the scaling used by the rest of the animals

Cause this is a 3 ton Stego subadult compared to an adult Diablo too

and they're basically the same size, Stego's a bit taller/longer but Diablo's much thicker

[spiral kindle]

Yeah i understand but for balance reasons 2 tons would suit it obviously in a future patch u could increase it.

But i understand

why its 3 for that purpose

[sonic flame]

Personally I'd rather keep the model/weight ratio intact, so I'd maybe look at decreasing the animal's overall size or maybe making it more vulnerable in other ways, but yeah, that's an option

[spiral kindle]

I respect it.

[sonic flame]

Tho kind of like doubling Troodon's health, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see weight/hp not agree with visuals

[spiral kindle]

Did u guys down scale Ptera when it got sliced in half

i cant remember

[sonic flame]

No, but that was also when Omni was 1 ton, and Stego was 4 tons

so before the sizes lined up with their actual masses

[true ginkgo]

2 tons is the one spot I wouldn’t want it. I prefer both 1.5 and 3 tons.

[sonic flame]

well, vice/versa, masses were abitrary for the sizes

[sonic flame]

1.5 would be my preferance but between 2 and 3 I prefer 2

[spiral kindle]

I respect it but 2 is the sweet spot

[true ginkgo]

I’m hoping we get 1.5 ton styraco and 3 ton dibble.

[sonic flame]

Just seems the devs really like this visual size, so it's mass is better off at 3

[true ginkgo]

2 ton dibble leaves no space for styraco

[spiral kindle]

u can still make 3 tons work if u give diablo some sort of weak spot as in like a neck bite that does 2x dmg or something idk

like 3 ton can work it has room

like i said i respect it

[sonic flame]

the neck is a weak spot, but good luck hitting it past the frill and without nicking the body

[sonic flame]

I wouldn't say no space, but it would require that they be given dramatically different toolsets since size won't be much help in setting them apart

[spiral kindle]

But rn its not in the greatest spot but u guys can work around the positive of it being 3 tons and give it a new weakness of some sort like i suggested something like that would be a good compensation

[true ginkgo]

I feel 3 tons works best for the final roster. But all its natural predators arnt implemented yet.

[sonic flame]

I don't think a 3 ton Diablo will be particularly vulnerable to Cerato/Carno specifically, but hopefully it gets some stuff moved around so it stops feeling like an outsider to the roster

pack hunters like Omni/Dilo seem better positioned to deal with it, assuming they can get behind the frill

[true ginkgo]

3 ton dibble feels like the counterpart of allo and alberto

[sonic flame]

personally 3 ton Diablo feels like an Allo slayer to me lol

[spiral kindle]

Dilo's agility doesnt feel the best

its like worst than carno almost

Dilo has been underpreforming i would say

[true ginkgo]

Ceratopsians have such compact bodies that it’s hard to fight them.

[true ginkgo]

Especially now omni is right click to kill

[spiral kindle]

I dont really mind diablo being 3 tons i respect it but its just the fact that theres been no compensation nerf from the buff

[true ginkgo]

I remember in legacy. Killing a dibble 1v1 as an allo was hard.

Wouldn’t mind dibble weight and model being moved down to 2.5 tons.

Makes it less of a near impossible fight for allo

[spiral kindle]

Well if u guys are balancing Diablo for Allo then right now Give Diablo a neck hitbox and when u bite it u take 2x more dmg instead of the usual 1.5x

that way it makes up for it weighing 3 tons

[true ginkgo]

It has a neck hitbox. Trouble is it also has an armoured frill.

[spiral kindle]

it already has a neck hitbox?

[true ginkgo]

Hyper said it did

It’s a pain to reach ceratopsian necks though.

@analog mirage I wouldn’t mind it moved down in weight if it’s model size got moved down too.

Initially we had 3 ton model size with 1.5 ton weight

[analog mirage]

I feel like the model should have just been moved down, rather than making it bigger just cause its model happened to be scaled that size.

Cause only one of those actions is gonna negatively impact balance

[true ginkgo]

If dibble stays at 3 tons, I’m hoping we get 1.5 ton styraco

[analog mirage]

Why don’t we just make dibbles physical weight 3T and it’s healthpool 2,000 (2T) if they don’t wanna decrease the model size

[sonic flame]

for the record, everything does

[sonic flame]

model scale can be changed, we've seen it before with other animals, I think it's just that Diablo's visual size is desired at that exactly

kind of like how Troodon's size hasn't changed despite a weight buff and an hp increase, it'd mess with the aesthetics I guess

[sonic flame]

Personally I'm not a fan of desyncing health and weight, it leads to stupid stuff really fast

like a rex with 20k hp, or the inverse of only having like 5k

[true ginkgo]

I like the health = weight system as it keeps animals balanced over their entire growth

[sonic flame]

Troodon is an exception and I think any future exceptions need to be really carefully considered

[analog mirage]

I just feel dibble balance wise should not be 3T. Idm its model being big. I just don’t want dibble to be tankier than it already is. It’s supposed to be able to punch up well which it can, but the tradeoff is it isnt as big in comparison to something like Allo or Alberto

[true ginkgo]

Arbitrary healths completely breaks down below 100% growth

[sonic flame]

TBF there's no reason that can't work at 3 tons

[true ginkgo]

Like when a 500kg stego had less than 1/3 the health of a 450kg omni. And less health than a dryo too.

[sonic flame]

just requires a bit more fine tuning that slapping it with less hp and calling it a day

[analog mirage]

I mean ideally both Allo and Alberto are gonna be roughly in the 2.5-3T range

Dibble being the same size if not bigger than them seems really off to me

Though that’s not to say the two are that size, just that it’s what seems to be the general idea of what they should be

[sonic flame]

well, Diablo is also potentially the return of something I didn't much care for in legacy, which is arbitrary sizing

we could just as easily get a 5 ton Allo to make sure it's still appreciably larger than Diablo, if they care about that

[true ginkgo]

Hyper how would you feel about dibble health and model going to 2.5 tons?

[sonic flame]

I'd rather drop all the way to 1.5 if a decrease was going to happen

If that's too far in the opposite direction it can be walked back

[spiral kindle]

well yeah i can see lmao but it doesnt do 2x headshot last time i checked

dmg

[true ginkgo]

Sadly it seems that the devs are nostalgic about legacy giant dibble.

[sonic flame]

but rather than go "Diablo doesn't function at that size" or something I'd want it to be tested

[analog mirage]

Iirc punch or dondi said they didn’t want dibble like legacy where it was drastically bigger than it was supposed to be

This was a while ago though so that could have changed

[sonic flame]

If we're limiting to something that keeps the legacy giant Diablo thing, there's not a chance of any downsize tbh

[sonic flame]

If you can find a quote on that, I'd greatly apprecaite it

[analog mirage]

Unfortunately I think it was before the Islecord message sweep

[true ginkgo]

Dondi said the opposite. When people were talking about shrinking it he said leave my dibble alone or something along those lines.

[analog mirage]

But I’ll look

[spiral kindle]

All i ask is for Diablo to have another weakness rn its slightly overtuned

i dont mind it weighing 3 tons because it does have a chance if done right

[true ginkgo]

I prefer 3 ton model and weight to 1.5 ton weight and 3 ton model.

But 1.5 ton weight and model would be best.

[sonic flame]

idk about that, but I do know about this #isle-discussion message

In reference to legacy Diablo, Dondi though it was the perfect size, and we ended up with legacy Diablo here too

Legacy Diablo was, funnily enough, the "correct" weight at 3250kg

[true ginkgo]

Thing is that perfect size in legacy played nicely with allo as its counterpart. An animal which might not arrive in this roster for several years

[sonic flame]

Yeah, tho to be fair "Not here yet" has not stopped and likely will not stop stuff like this from happening

Stego being introduced so far before rex, for example

or grapple before bucking rework

makes balance now a huge pain in the butt but means less work for balance later since you don't have to redo a lot of stuff

[spiral kindle]

Will there be more changes to Dilo and Carno they feel not as good overall than what they used to be

[sonic flame]

Carno yeah, we don't know what, Dilo, I have no idea but probably

[spiral kindle]

Carno gets 17% diet on hunting its "small prey" / omni

and its just worst at doing that now with the charge changes

no reward

[cobalt dagger]

Well, I wouldn't want Dilo to be AS op as it was when it was first introduced. But it's definitely suffering right now.

[spiral kindle]

Buff dilos agility not by much but maybe like 15%

make its base kit better rather than relying on your clones that dont work 90% of the time

[tiny thicket]

Nah 2 ton dibble was perfect making it 3 ton is just over-exaggerating stuff like legacy used to do.

And Allo shouldn't cross 3 ton mark either.

[spiral kindle]

Agreed

Diablo at 2 tons was perfect

[finite shadow]

Dibble could already knock allo on its ass at 2t get a free gore and probably a head hit in, 3t is way overtuned for something that’s meant to be in herds

[distant torrent]

@hallow sonnet the issue with it being purely based on weight means you just die without any skill on the omnis part if there’s enough of them. grapple just needs to be a finisher and have a weight + low blood (possibly interchangeable with health) + low stam prerequisite

[hallow sonnet]

so it would be just like modern pouncing

[distant torrent]

in a way. normal pouncing until the prerequisites are met, then grapple can be initiated

[alpine plover]

dilo doesn’t need an agility buff all it needs is its hitbox to be fixed and its hallucinations to actually help and work properly

[spiral kindle]

yeah i know but if there not gonna do that then for now they should compensate by making its base kit better then maybe revert it once they finally rework its ability

[molten willow]

This

[slim dragon]

@umbral solar Stego is 6 tons. If dibble was able to knock over 6.5 tons, it could still knock over FG stego.

[umbral solar]

I thought stego was more mb

[sleek sierra]

@craggy ledge https://youtube.com/shorts/df7TIWX7I24?si=B3d5mtqWMvqrTsAa

While I do overall agree with your herra points, just throwing this out there for examples of extreme animal abilities. I imagine he hurt for a few days after this.

[dusky surge]

it's also a video game where a spinosaurus that canonically is able to fire of EMPs exists so I choose to suspend my disbelief

[craggy ledge]

I watched it, like a year ago, insane footage, I bet this wasn't in the leopard's plans and I guess he later had severe injuries that lead to his death.

[sleek sierra]

Very well might have survived, they do lead a pretty rough life though and I expect they would live much longer without things like this too. 😀

[cobalt dagger]

@craggy ledge

I understand that it's not realistic that Herra hunts the way it does, but as far as skill goes - Omni can pin Herra to death as well as other small creatures, and both herra and omni grow for close to the same time.

I see Herra one-shotting omni with a HEADSHOT to be fair seeing as it's pretty hard to do if the omni actually SEES you and goes away from the tree...

Just like it's hard to pin a herra that sees you, because of course they'll run up a tree or cliff.

[golden coral]

@craggy ledge It's a game, with all kinds of weird stuff. Charge, pounce, hallucinations, cooldowns, and so on. I don't think herrera doing what it does is all that unreasonable. And it's no worse than deino, and requires more planning, timing, and so on than most others. And I think omni dies on bodyshot from herrera, but if it's only headshot, then it's even harder to hit. So overall, I don't think herrera is a problem compared to others, especially not when we have current omni and diablo being quite overtuned to say the least.

[cobalt dagger]

Omnie currently only dies instantly from headshot I think, bodyshot puts it pretty low hp though

[craggy ledge]

That is very wrong IMO, the dmg in the body

[cobalt dagger]

Then omni pinning herra barely from the hitbox of it's tail should be wrong too.

Or like... When it 'pins' you from 10 feet away-

I've had that happen too much.

[craggy ledge]

Oh yeah, so many broken hitboxes

[cobalt dagger]

Or like deino just oneshotting pretty much everything with drown

[craggy ledge]

They sure need to fix it, in special the omnis, diablos, tenos, hitboxes of attacks

[cobalt dagger]

Well, me and a friend tested and found, it's not just your ping but your enemy's ping that affects this too.

[craggy ledge]

Deino is different, is a Apex with 8ton

Is a "aquatic-rex"

[cobalt dagger]

If I am lagging, and I am a stego, and I see a raptor - and on the raptor's screen, he is running. But on my screen, he is frozen, because I am lagging.

And I hit the frozen version of the raptor on my laggy stego's screen? The raptor will die.

[craggy ledge]

And with one of the strongest bites ever

[cobalt dagger]

On the raptor's screen, he will appear to teleport back onto my tail.

[cobalt dagger]

Okay, realistically yes. But balance wise.

He needs to grow long to compensate this.
He does, too.

I prefer to look at this from a game design perspective. If we want deino to oneshot things, then he needs to grow longer than what he oneshots.

[golden coral]

Well, herreras can't punch up anywhere near as well as deino can, and with more possibilities of helping a friend than if a deino gets them.

[cobalt dagger]

Agreed

[cobalt dagger]

The reason I mention the hitboxes- Often teno 'hitbox' is actually a laggy teno/diablo who is hitting you on their screen, but on YOUR screen you're not near them

So also for raptors pinning me 10 feet away

[craggy ledge]

Is not just about growth time, deino is a ambusher, yeah like herrera, and herrera only atm

[cobalt dagger]

But when a raptor pins my tail, my tail is part of my hitbox rightfully, and there is no mechanic that denies a grab because the grab was on a tail.

[cobalt dagger]

Okay, but ambusher doesn't HAVE to equal, ' I oneshot you and you don't get to fight back at all'

[craggy ledge]

Even if the raptor pounces your back, you can easy take it off by scratching in something

[cobalt dagger]

ANYTHING that can oneshot you and be invisible is gonna be really op and before the recent changes that made deino life challenging, they were super over-populated.

[cobalt dagger]

Yes, but I am talking about pinning.

Let's say I have a cannibal raptor

And he pins another raptor, just barely by it's tail

This can happen with good ping on both sides.

Meanwhile herra HAS to hit the head, if it wants to 1-shot.

[craggy ledge]

True, but, if you're in the mouth of a 8ton deino, and he takes you down , yeah, you should die alright

[cobalt dagger]

Again, I'm not discussing realism, I'm discussing balancing. We can edit things like grow time to match realism and have balance both.

Also, there will be things just as big.

[craggy ledge]

Idk much about pinning, really, I don't see much pinning at all , but if a single omni is pinning a pray of his size, that has more than 20% stamina and hp, yeah, not fair

[cobalt dagger]

Balancing is... What is fair? What makes it so that every species is able to 'survive' by one method or another? Making sure that if you spend 1 hour growing, you stand a fair chance against other people who spent 1 hour growing, but maybe not against those who spent 2 hours growing.

[cobalt dagger]

Omni can pin other omni.

[craggy ledge]

Yeah, discussing realism doesn't help much

[cobalt dagger]

I don't need a given creature to be able to kill all things, but I do feel the need for a given creature to be able to stay alive - Not as a gurauntee, but only through practice and skill and effort. (Else, why would I play it just to die helplessly no matter the time investment or hours spent growing?)

Now some creatures are bigger than the others in this game

And that's ok - So long as they had to grow longer for that power.

Earned power, if you will.

Omni, by growing for... I think it's 1 hour and 30 minutes? Earns the power to pin things smaller than itself or it's own size - and the ability to bring down bigger prey in groups.

Herra, by growing for the same amount of time, earns the ability to oneshot anything Raptor-sized or smaller, but is less effective than raptor at group hunting. However, it has superior escape mechanism; Nothing can reach it in the trees. I suppose raptors can sit on rocks, but pachy or teno can jump. Herra however, is quite comfortably safe.

Herra has less 'killing power'; 8 full grown herra aren't as good at killing a carno as 8 full grown raptors are. An adult raptor is the biggest thing Herra can oneshot - But another raptor can ALSO oneshot another raptor and doesn't need them to be under a tree to do it!

Everything Herra can oneshot, Raptor can pin, including other raptors.
And then raptor is BETTER at taking down big prey than herra is. So raptor grows for the same time, but has 'more killing power'.

Herra however, has better survivability, perhaps unmatched. Raptors can't climb trees, and not much can hurt a herra who is perched in a tree, they are entirely safe. Plus, they can eat ai fish, adding to their survivability.

I feel like this is a good way to balance it - Raptor has more killing power, but at a cost of less survivability. (Can't eat AI fish, can't climb trees.) Herra has less killing power, but more survivability.

Ptera is another example of something with 'less killing power but more survivability' since it flies.

To me, killing power is the ability to kill someone who doesn't wanna be killed. I would say stego has less killing power than deino, because while both of them oneshot most things, deino can hide better than stego can - and is effective (but not perfect at) camping a necessary resource, that being water. Now, stegos try to camp food, but they can't do this 'invisibly' like deino can.

Adding to this, I think it's good that deino is challenged to get into other sources of water or that we have little ponds sprinkled everywhere or a few safe drinking spots. You don't want anything to be 'perfect' at killing or it will be oppressive - Other species will have 0 chance of staying alive and playing anything else will be a constant stream of boring, short, helpless deaths that no skill or strategy could have prevented.

[golden coral]

It kind of does, to be honest. That's the point of an ambush, that you're dead before you can react.

[craggy ledge]

Ptera is a "free cam mode"haha, is fun, they need to make it easy catch small dinos, hatches, would be awesome now that I'll finally see it, people will nest.

I agree with you about the balance

[golden coral]

Stego with the recent changes lost pretty much any and all killing power, because reasons I guess.

[craggy ledge]

What u mean, Stego was super buffed with this new attack man

And was invincible already

I know that days ago they nerfed the new attack, but still, great.

[cobalt dagger]

Not necessarily. Pachy for example, breaks your legs. Great form of ambush - Comes out of a bush and does something that stops you from escaping. Personally, I don't like that you can't alt-bite with a broken leg though, because it adds to my 'helplessness' complaint.

I remember playing carno with a friend, so we were 2 adult carnos, he was fully grown and I was 60%. Two adult pachy showed up and leg-broke us, and just hit our backsides to death, we were unable to find favorable positioning. We had a good bit for a while with our backs to a tree but it wasn't good enough.

Pachy - a creature that grows 1 hour 30 minutes - I do not believe should freely and easily kill a creature that grows 2 hours 30 minutes. It shouldn't be impossible, but it should require more skill from the pachy/the pachy needs to out-skill the carno. Maybe we were outskilled, but honestly it didn't look that hard for them... Two of them, trick us into biting in one direction, than the other goes for the headbutt, even with our backs to a tree. They were clearly in a discord call, but so were we.

Anyway. Basically, though, broken leg is a great ambush method that gives you an advantage without utter helplessness.

[craggy ledge]

Pachy is not a carni, doesn't even makes sense so go around breaking people up

[dusky surge]

genuinely overnerfed the whole thing, its one of the most disappointing changes i've seen

went from having a viable power to just going back to being extremely easy to read, bait, punish and kill

[cobalt dagger]

Gotta forget realism and look at balancing - What is herbi or carni won't matter, people want to kill for fun in this game, you need to expect them to do that and balance the game for all the darn little 'what if' situations or else fast aggressive HERBIS will kill everyone.

II don't want realism entirely chucked out the window.

[golden coral]

Yes, until they added 10%/15% stam cost and then 3 second cooldown, and made it from decent to outright bad

[cobalt dagger]

How we balance something could reflect it - Ex: If we keep most herbi slower than most carni, then they can't hunt carni very effectively.

[golden coral]

It never was, nowhere near

[craggy ledge]

Man a good stego player was invincible before, now is even more, until something bigger comes out, so, no complains there

[dusky surge]

completely untrue

you baited out swings then killed it lol, it wasn't hard

[cobalt dagger]

I killed stegos before quite a few times

Yeah make it waste it's stam

[golden coral]

True, you don't have to outright kill, you just have to basically make sure the target can't do much, if anything, to get away and survive.

[craggy ledge]

Good players don't go for the bait man, they keep moving around a slim tree and keep moving the head to avoid bites

Nym is a great stego player, try to kill him, good luck, ask him to go pvp, he is adm, he can do this stuff, we tried and failed, the group of the elite raptors, don't even scratched it

[golden coral]

And I don't think pachy should be able to kill a carno, not even with an ambush. Pachy being good at ambushing does not mean it has the power to ambush whatever, or well, succeed in doing much from the ambush.

[golden coral]

It's less so now, as they ruined the rekit. And it wasn't before either, not even with terrain, there were ways around that too.

[golden coral]

And did he have to use terrain and "hide"?

[cobalt dagger]

The other thing about ambush is that the 'intended counter' is to be aware and don't get snuck-up on. They've made some changed for that with deino that I am happy with - more clear lakewater so I can drink somewhere that isn't 'a shallow safe spot' but I have to react fast, or the ability to hear them swimming if they swim fast.

Deino was more OP in spiro when there was NO way to detect it AT ALL. Ambusher's 'challenge' should be, the challenge of approaching undetected. Your ability to sneak, VS your prey's awareness.
Only before you COULDN'T have any awareness or counterplay based on awareness. NOW you can.

[golden coral]

Or could he actually fight you in the open and you know, rely on being a good player?

[craggy ledge]

Not hide, he was during close circles in the slim tree, like he was a stripper

[golden coral]

Because if it's back to "hide in a tree/rock" then stego is back to being bad, since it's not a matter of you being good, but terrain just countering the omni pounces

[cobalt dagger]

I agree, and I want to see the same for Deino.

[golden coral]

That counts as hiding

As in, "I am saved by the terrain"

I can do that too, that is not really skill, it is smart, I'll grant that

[craggy ledge]

Yeah, that is the point, there is always something nearby to kick off the omnis

[golden coral]

But it goes to show my point, and it only really works vs omnis due to pounce being what it is

[craggy ledge]

kick-off = death

[golden coral]

Tenos can kill stegos, ceras can, dilos can, troodons can (and better than omnis if the stego uses terrain)

[craggy ledge]

Yeah but will the new mechanics, stego will fear omnis more than ever, now if fatal, really is

[golden coral]

Even carnos can with accel, since they can actually bait and get in/out now

[golden coral]

Which is a problem, but that's an omni problem, being overpowered as always

[cobalt dagger]

Agreed

[craggy ledge]

But still, stego will die ONLY for omnis still, until something bigger join us

[craggy ledge]

Oh yeah, omni is super OP with the new mechanics, god.

[golden coral]

I am not sure you actually can react in time, maybe if you hear/see them as they approach, but not otherwise. I do wish we got a quick react to use, a quick "get out of eating/drinking and move" thing

[cobalt dagger]

If stego and rex grow for the same time, then Omni should be able to pin rex the way it pins stego/I don't like that x amount of raptors can pin anyone anyway

[craggy ledge]

And I don't think that will be easy to kill two decent stego players together, solo is going to be easy

[craggy ledge]

Are u crazy? How can you say it if rex isn't even here already?

[cobalt dagger]

It depends on where you drink too. Some lake water is shallow enough to give you reaction time but not shallow enough that deino has to land itself to approach

[golden coral]

Nah, you can kill stego with teno, cera, and a few others, stego isn't as invincible as people think, far from it

[craggy ledge]

Not the good ones man, is what I'm talking about, the crap players doesn't count

[golden coral]

And with the changes to the rekit, that attack is just as baitable, if not more, than the old jab

[craggy ledge]

Potatos will die yeah

[golden coral]

No, even the good ones, since at best, they have to trade

[craggy ledge]

Yeah, cera is trouble, he is OP vs slower dinos

[golden coral]

I really want to see how it'll go when rex and trike are in. What with how everyone hates stego and want it to be bad, I can't imagine how it'll sound with those two in. Unless they get excused like deino has.

[golden coral]

Possibly, I am somewhat limited in where to go as stego, migration zones you know xD

[cobalt dagger]

I'm saying this as a general thing. I don't want stego or rex to be pinned, honestly. But if they grow for the same time, and have the same ability to escape raptors (Both are too big to hide, both have less stam than raptor, both have less speed than raptor (I think, anyway, rex will be slower) then I expect Raptor's to have the same success.

If both grow the same time, why should Rex get a free 'no pins' card from the raptor?

[craggy ledge]

Deino is 5h10min to full grow w perfect diet, that isn't easy at all to get in Islander, Rex will be at least 7h with perfect diet, and will not have the protection of the water, good luck ...

Rex will have 36 to 40kmh top speed

Idk about the stamina, is a mystery still

The Rex pin-down animation was done a long time ago

[golden coral]

Not so much, just that stego is just not good. There's for some reason this sentiment that stego should be almost entirely stationary, and trade hits, and not be allowed to pressure or fight back like any other. I can't imagine rex being limited the same way, or even trike. (yes, you can use the running swing, it takes 15% stamina + 3 second cooldown, and is very obvious to use, and everything is faster than adult stego, even adult dibble). And with new grapple being stam based, I'm sure losing 15% stam to maybe hit an omni is a good trade)

[cobalt dagger]

This is fair, and another reason why I HATE migration zones.

Okay, first off, drink SIDEWAYS. This way you can turn and run faster, and less of yourself is pointing towards the deep end of the water. Next off, have a plan, know where you are running, imagine what you will do depending on which direction Deino comes from. Also, look for a semi-shallow spot, a spot where you can see some pebbles for a little, and turn off your nightvision if you don't need it since you can see better into lakewater without it. Keep your ears and eyes open while drinking and be ready to jump/run as soon as you detect anything at all.

And don't drink in deino hotspots, like, y'know, southplains river is right now.

[golden coral]

We don't know how fast it'll be, maybe it'll be slower than stego, maybe not

[craggy ledge]

I love rex and omnis, I hope that to kill a full rex, you need to have a awesome full pack of omnis and a lot of patient

[craggy ledge]

Idk how fast stegos gets, but rex is not going to be slower than 36 for sure, makes no sense.

[golden coral]

I expect both trike and rex to do even worse vs omni and troodon than stego does. They have even less potential to defend flanks, and are bigger targets to land a pounce on. And most likely pretty stamina reliant too, unless they get proper basic attacks at no stam cost (for all we know, they might).

[cobalt dagger]

There's also a lot of safe spots anyway, to drink.

[golden coral]

I don't know if dibbles attacks take stamina or not

[cobalt dagger]

I hope but I don't expect this, I suspect that this will happen for trike but I genuinely fear that Rex is going to get a free 'no pins' card just because he's rex.

[craggy ledge]

Diablo has low stamina, goes down quick with attacks or running

Trike should be the same

[golden coral]

Fair, thanks for the tips! Will try it out if I go herrera or dryo! (since I'm done with stego for now, I can't deal with my favourite being nerfed like this after finally getting a fun rekit)

[cobalt dagger]

I am somewhat excited about playing Rex though from the perspective of something that has to sneak up on prey, WITHOUT use of water to hide in.

[golden coral]

How much stam do the attacks take, and which ones take stam?

[craggy ledge]

Makes no sense, why would they've done long ago, the pin down animation to rex?

[golden coral]

This is why you don't sneak around, you find a good hiding spot near a place where people pass by, and jump out at whatever gets close enough. Or at least thats how I hunted as rex in legacy and prog.

[craggy ledge]

I'm don't do herbs, but I watch lives all the times, all attacks have a cost man

[cobalt dagger]

Pin down - like raptors pinning him?

Probably because baby rex will probably get pinned by raptors, and definitely by other rex.

[golden coral]

Will have to try it out for myself then, but well, basic attacks do not take stam. Like normal bites and all, which is good for those that have useful bites.

[craggy ledge]

You never saw it?

[cobalt dagger]

Okay fair, I have a friend who loves to do this as cera, but still. I am excited for it still.

I have enjoyed the conversation but I am gonna go outside for a bit, see you all

[craggy ledge]

https://youtube.com/shorts/o-CiKI5Sjvo?si=4KZbOiilpdZq0DyH

[craggy ledge]

Cya

[golden coral]

@solid belfry I just want to point out, that from what I've been told, the current 3T is what matches the ingame model in size. As for it knocking things down, it could stun stegos before (unless the whole 1999.5 weight was to prevent that, not really sure to be honest) but I would argue that's an issue with diablo CC being way overtuned, rather than a weight thing. It also knocked down, and stunned surprisingly large targets while still being a juvie or sub, so it always had strangely high CC values.

[dusky surge]

@tight cove what did i say that offended you so that you told me to shut up lol

[tight cove]

yo i knew i was gonna get @ 😂 💀

[dusky surge]

idc if you disagree but whats up with the "shut" lmao

[tight cove]

Im just sayin to shh because i think stego is fine rn once rex drops and it genuinely suffers too much then i might change my opinion lol

[dusky surge]

try the cooldown

seriously, i might agree with stego being fine IF they get rid of that cooldown

like it feels HORRIBLE, genuinely an example of terrible design

the stamina part was more of a pet peeve, its the cooldown that just feels horrid

[tight cove]

cant you still swing while on cooldown?

[dusky surge]

nope

unless its the alt jab, which is a very slow option

you're locked out of two of your better attacks, and it ruined the quick swing

[tight cove]

imma test this, but for now imma just wait till rex drops to see if it really does need a buff

[dusky surge]

it'd be fine if the cooldown was ONLY on the power swing

but it's on the jab, which is just silly

[golden coral]

It's not, and it's not even a matter of rex. It's how they added a rekit, then proceeded to make the rekit almost worse than the old kit.

[dusky surge]

since the whole point of the jab is to be a quick way to guard flanks

[golden coral]

Exaggerated stamina (which stego already struggles with + grapple now, so yeah, you really don't want to be low on stam) and then a cooldown so you're even more open to attacks than usual. Meanwhile we got current diablo, who is basically a better stego by now.

After all, while stego might have some reach, even if the attacks are clunky as can be, diablo got the fancy sparring movements and all that.

[golden coral]

It doesn't need a buff, it just needs to not be nerfed. It was fine when it dropped, aside from the attack only costing 2% stam. But all they had to do was put old jab at 4% (and rebind it to alt), new standing swing at 5%, running swing at 10% (and make it so you swing at the side you're looking at when running, since every other attack works like that).

That would have been fine. The issue with stegos running down diablos is far more of a diablo issue, where it for god only knows what reason has to be slower than a stego as juvie and sub. Which is very odd and I see no point in that decision.

[tight cove]

Bro I literally just got on the game and tested it and there’s no cooldown on any swing besides the power swing, what are yall talking about??? 😭

You can use them like normal

[dusky surge]

i literally logged on to test this, the little "power stance jabs" put you on cooldown

not the sprinting varient

[golden coral]

Oh, no cooldown on that one, does it still take 15% stam?

[golden coral]

I mean the new stance swing, wasn't aware it was not on the running version, but considering how much they made it cost in the patch before the latest, that's still very harsh. Not like the patch notes are always so clear.

[tight cove]

Diablo knocking down a fg stego is wild it should only be a stun to be honest

[golden coral]

Not sure what they intend for diablo to fight but it seems like they want it to be quite powerful

[tight cove]

I think they might scrap styraco at this point but idk

[golden coral]

Maybe, or maybe it'll be the smaller one

[tight cove]

@dusky surge @golden coral imma test the power stance jabs again because for me there’s no cooldown

Yeah only the new power swing has a cooldown so you can’t spam it, other than that you can use the regular swings like normal so idk

[golden coral]

There's a cooldown on both the standing and running swing

And that's the cooldown Im talking about

There was no spam, no more than any attack, so there was no issue

You couldn't spam it before, any more than you can spam any attack, you had to "recharge" (if you attacked too quickly, you'd do the jab instead) anyway, you needed to wait until the tail was properly raised. And the attack isn't faster than most others from what I can see either.

[golden coral]

And the regular jabs are still as clunky as always, so no compensation, nothing to make the old kit better, just making the new one worse

[golden coral]

The sprinting one also has the cooldown, at least from what I'm testing right now

[dusky surge]

i know that lol

and im fine with the fact that it does

if they REALLY wanna keep it (even though i'd rather nada cooldown), make it only power swing

[golden coral]

Well you said up there that it wasn't the sprinting variant xD But no, there should be no coodown for either of them, it's not needed at all

The running one is already delayed by the fact that you well, come to a stop and has to start running again

[tight cove]

Alright I agree but with this new kit you do way more dmg and can knock stuff down so it’s a risk vs reward now I guess, you should only use it against big slow targets (like Rex) and not waste it on Omnis for example

[golden coral]

Also the running "charge sound" is... very weak on my end

It's just a little huff?

[dusky surge]

oof, weird

[golden coral]

Which would be fine if the jabs were quick and effective

[dusky surge]

or you could jab while moving in the power stance, which is weird you can't

[golden coral]

They gave an efficient attack extreme power, vs things that are slow and can be reliably hit by the jab, while making the clunky jab the thing meant for fast and agile things, which doesn't work

It's just... backwards in a sense

[tight cove]

Yeah I’m getting the same thing, it’s either glitched or the sound needs to be raised because it’s far to quiet, a stego can easily ambush someone rn with how quiet this is smh 😐

[golden coral]

I expected it to be the same as the standing one, or even louder, so that's a bit odd yes

[dusky surge]

might update my post to mention that

[golden coral]

Anyway, stego back to being clunky and odd, no more fun

[tight cove]

Stegos always been like this lol

[dusky surge]

That's... not exactly a good point?

Nothing should feel like ass to control

[golden coral]

Yes I know, why do you think I've always had a problem with it's design? xD

[dusky surge]

The rekit was supposed to FIX how godawful stego felt compared to the entire roster

[golden coral]

All they had to do was add a normal amount of stam drain for the standing swing and a little extra for the running, and all would have been well

But no, I am doomed to not get to have a fun playable it seems xD. Meanwhile diablo, and then omni with no pounce recovery, and now the new grapple (which is sure to be fun for everyone involved)

[tight cove]

That’s fair but what I’m saying is stego is relatively the same but it just got some more options now because of its new kit so it can actually be more aggressive now plus you can swing with no stam now

[dusky surge]

We have an 8 ton croc behemoth, but it controls and fights far more fluidly than its herbivore counterpart, despite by all means being a more complex design of a creature.

It has options for speed, stealth, killing potential, flank defence, safety, etc, and its movement is, while slow, never actively working against you.

[golden coral]

Yeah, you also run out of stam, and well, at no stam you get grappled and die

Being able to alt attack out of stam is, while good, a danger in it's own right

But that's mostly an omni being omni thing

[tight cove]

Against Omnis you genuinely never have to use the power swing just stay near a tree and your fine they are no threat.

[dusky surge]

Not at all

A good omniraptor group can EASILY counter such a simple play

[golden coral]

And that's the issue, stay near a tree, don't be capable of fighting on your own xD

[dusky surge]

Backpounce/bucking be ass/stego's poor turnrate work great for getting bleed trickled on and on

[tight cove]

I’m ngl no Dino is capable of fighting a group of Omnis out in the open 💀 especially rn with pounce to pin

[dusky surge]

But yes, the overreliance on trees should indicate why stego is so poor

Or, why omni is too good

[golden coral]

I loathe the "use just terrain" for any counter, it's boring, not interactive, not engaging, and just causes a situation where "terrain = can't die" and "no terrain = die"

[golden coral]

I am well aware, I take issue with the entire design concept there. Same with deino and safe spots to drink at.

I would much rather have no "safe spots" but some form of more reliable mechanical counter

[dusky surge]

You kinda HAVE to be an animal like carno or galli to survive out as a plains creature, because anything slower than omnis will either be shredded or forced to move quickly to a forest

Any other plains critter that isn't a speed demon suffers

[tight cove]

The tree can get the Omnis off your back and you don’t even need to buck

But yes the over reliance on trees is bad I agree

That’s why hopefully we are getting a bucking rework like dondi said

[dusky surge]

When you have no other option, it's either buck and die slowly, or don't buck and die slowly, because both options are suicidal

[dusky surge]

Oh for sure, we need that more than ever

It is interesting to note how stego balance basically always delves into omni balance, and I think that's because stego, by existing, has inadvertently forced omni to become MUCH stronger than it ever needed to be

Because the flank-defending, instakill 6 ton behemoth is consistently the cornerstone of what raptor players EXPECT to be the ultimate fight, so they assume there should be some equality in the matter

Which isn't exactly WRONG, because it's not like we have any other apex for our big-game hunter to hunt besides the giant croc that just walks into a river the moment it doesn't like how the fight is going, but I think the choice of stego so early has contributed to a very overpowered omni

Put trike in. We'd have a different story in terms of how strong omni would be, I guarantee it

[tight cove]

Interesting, the balance has always been a back and forth thing but also isn’t stego supposed to be anti raptor given it’s excellent side defense

[dusky surge]

and this is my point

should stego not be the anti-raptor? and if it isn't, how will trike, shant or even rexes/gigas fare?

[tight cove]

Tbh idk all Ik is that Omni won’t be able to pin Dino’s that big

[dusky surge]

it might be able to honestly based on the current weight calculations lol

[tight cove]

If it hasn’t already been changed then they will def change it when Rex drops I guarantee it

But also I’d like to say currently that if trike got dropped rn it wouldn’t stand a chance against Omni

It’s very slow and a slow turn LMFAO

[dusky surge]

apparently, if we do the math, omni packs can pin up to 9000kg (at least from what we currently know from some testing)

Which uh

Might actually pin some of those animals

[tight cove]

Yeah they def gonna change that or just straight up make exceptions for certain Dino’s

They might need to bring back a 1s delay on a missed pounce ngl

[dusky surge]

i still don't know why they got rid of that lol

[tight cove]

Last time they had it I think Omni was at a very weak point so that’s why

I was there for the dark times of Omni, it was so bad sometimes 💀

[dusky surge]

omni never really ends up being at a "very weak" point

it often ends up at a "weirdly bugged and difficult to play, not because of balance, but because the entire animal is broken" point

[tight cove]

Carno was literally a direct upgrade

[tight cove]

Yes I remember when it was super buggy too

I remember literally wiping out a whole pack as a lone carno 🤣

[dusky surge]

You're talking about U6, in which case, omni wasn't that weak

Carno was just INFINITELY better because of how absurd its kit was at the time, and it completely overshadowed omni. Same with pachy and deino, both completely overshadowed omni, so there was never a good reason to play it.

[golden coral]

Maybe, at this point I expect rex and trike to be excused in some manner. But otherwise I agree, the put the critter that should be one of the three or so animals "immune" to omnis, and then balanced omni to take it down in half pack + groups. Can only end well.

[dusky surge]

I fear for anky, to be honest

Because the precedent set thusfar very much implies bad things for that critter

[golden coral]

Yes, that is mine and others point. If the one animal, aside from anky, that are this large and has natural abilities that suits defending its flanks and have reach of attack still struggle, what will the similar sized animals without reach and everything else do.

That's why I take issue with how they've done the matchup, because if stego struggles, despite having jabs outwards and some kind of flank defense/reach, what will a trike do, with a far more limited head on a swivel, or a rex. And far as I know, diablos do struggle, even with their fancy sparring movement.

And I can't really see a trike move as fast as a diablo, even if it gets the same movement options.

Being what, three times its weight, at 9T or so?

[tight cove]

Honestly ngl I don’t expect this game to be very balanced past this point, this is literally the breaking point, pounce to pin and Diablo proves it.

It’s gonna be who’s bigger or who has the most numbers

[golden coral]

Honestly dont know how well a diablo does vs omnis (a reasonable amount of them that is, 3-4 maybe? or 4-5 perhaps, with new weight?)

Granted, last I heard HT servers are... not good, so might be hard to tell

[tight cove]

If the Omnis are good and it’s in a open area it’s probably gonna die but if it uses its environment well it will probably win

[tight cove]

Yeah I’m waiting for them to fix this sound bug and the lag

[dusky surge]

diablos are a very good example of a non-flank defending, non-nimble creature which MUST fight

carno/galli/dilo? yes, they're very forward focusing in combat, but they can also just... go really damn fast, enough to escape omni
deino? high bleed resist alongside a hefty bloodpool AND the water's safety allows it to protect itself from omnis pretty well.
pachy? good stuns and speed allow a little advantage, although i must admit that pachy's state needs help

dibble lacks these things, and is very easy for omnis to jump onto and take down given its general inagility and lack of speed, as well as a lack of directional attacks that are enough to catch an omni

[tight cove]

As a Diablo you just can’t alt swing spam you gotta constantly be trying to knock them down and kill them

But a Diablo can defend itself from a small group of Omni’s for sure

I just can’t believe Diablo weighs 3 tons now, nobody would have ever guessed this

[west plank]

This definitely needs to be fixed

#balance-feedback message

[dusky surge]

I mean... it's not really a problem? Especially given diablo is the size of a 3 ton creature (literally, side-by-side with a 3 ton stego, it is actually bigger)

In fact, the only creature actually suffering from diablo's new weight is stego

[west plank]

Even worse, it now knocks down the stego in one hit.

[dusky surge]

Yea I know

But I mean, you could solve that by adjusting knockdown threshholds, you don't need to make the weight lower to fix that

I'm more interested to know their secret reason for adjusting the weight, given they've mentioned it's for a specific purpose they haven't yet revealed

[west plank]

It was able to play 1v1 with stego by stealing the role of other ceratops.

[tight cove]

I’d say if they gonna keep it at this weight it shouldn’t be able to knock stuff down that’s 6 tons, that’s pretty wild

[west plank]

Yes, but it needs to leave space for other ceratops, and it weighs more than 3 tons.

[west plank]

It also stuns up to 12 tons, so it can stun a rex.

[dusky surge]

based on what lol

[dusky surge]

The only ceratopsian it really messes with is styraco. Proto, ava, pachyrhino and trike all are massively different weights and niches

[tight cove]

Yeah def broken 😂

[west plank]

maybe they wanted to bring dibble instead of styraco

[tight cove]

Probably

Either they gonna get rid of styraco or they gonna nerf Diablos weight to 2 tons again

[west plank]

Or since Rex is coming, they may want to keep it at 3 tons until Styrcao comes.

[golden coral]

What makes you think there's a "secret reason"?

[dusky surge]

dondi saying so

[golden coral]

Oh, what did he say then?

[tight cove]

I don’t remember exactly but he said basically that there increasing the weight because in 3 days he knows something that we don’t yet but that was for the 2 tons weight increase not the 3 tons

I assume they increased the weight in preparation for allo or whatever mid teir carni they bring in or maybe it was to test pounce to pin for some reason

[primal heart]

Before discussing the stamina cost of Stego, I think it is necessary to discuss the problem that many animals can still do special attacks and alt attacks even when they are out of stamina.

If they fix that.I will support that stego have a stamina cost problem.

[dusky surge]

that's not a problem, that's very on purpose

[primal heart]

Animals out the of stamina just shouldn't do any attack that cost stamina.
Or what's the meaning of stamina limits.

[dusky surge]

then make bites cost stamina

because otherwise you're saying "make it that herbivores cannot defend themselves out of stam but carnis can"

when you're out of stam, you still lose access to your most impactful abilities. Alt-bite is simply a way to avoid you dying when out of stam if its a way for you to not instantly die out of stam

[primal heart]

Manage your own stm, if you use up all your stm and still can "protect yourself well", then why need carnivores?

[dusky surge]

what?

[primal heart]

You mean I can use all stm to chase a predator and kill him with a stun attack?

[dusky surge]

you can't do that lol

[primal heart]

You can

[dusky surge]

if you use up all your stam to chase a predator you can no longer catch up with him to hit him with an alt attack and kill him

[primal heart]

Teno just run faster and run longer than cerato

[dusky surge]

besides dryo, hypsi and cerato, every animal uses a vital attack when out of stam

2 of those animals are not meant to be combatants, and 1 of them is a carnivore

[slim dragon]

If you used all your stamina you're not running anymore

[primal heart]

Stegosaurus can use its tail when it uses up stm.you know？

[slim dragon]

not my point

And by the way, that's normal

[primal heart]

Teno can also use kick and tail slam when out of stamina

[slim dragon]

Yes

[primal heart]

And that can stun

[slim dragon]

Cera can use charged bite that can vomit when out of stam, every carnivore (who have stronger bites than their herbivore counterparts) can still use them when out of stam

Including alts

[primal heart]

Charge bite can't stun.I don't need to tell you what happens when you stand with a Teno and attack face to face.

[slim dragon]

It can, vomit is a stun

[primal heart]

And deino can also alt bite when out of stamina

[slim dragon]

Making a creature completely unable to attack when it's out of stam is bad, that's just death with extra steps
Attacking when out of stam already deals reduced dmaage, I'd only change it so it's also slower
And make bites cost stamina too ofc

[primal heart]

Reduce damage？no it's not

[slim dragon]

Pretty sure attacks deal less damage when out of stam

[primal heart]

It may have been, but it's still total damage

At now

Deino alt bite out of stamina still kill a full grown raptor when hit body

And that deino is heavily injured.

Just manage your stm well.and make all attack that cost stm unusable when out of stm

[slim dragon]

That's boring af

I understand punishing players who run out of stamina, but when the punishment is "now watch helplessly and do nothing while your opponent kills you" it's bad

Especially considering it only affects herbivores, since carnivores can keep biting and deal reaonable DPS when out of stam

So it just ends up being another "screw herbivores" balance choice

[primal heart]

Well good.than make omni can pounce when out of stm.because if omni out of stm it can just“do nothing while your opponent kills you”
you don't need say any of that to make a herbivor invincible.
you out of stm, you die very easily.it not about carnivore or herbivore.

Animals that use all their stm must have made obvious mistakes.
If such an animal can still protect itself well, it is unbalance

Especially considering if it not affects herbivores,than herbs can keep deal more reaonable damage than carnivore and stun when out of stamina.

[slim dragon]

Pounce isn't an ability that is necessary for defending oneself

[slim dragon]

Unless attacks are slower and deal less damage when out of stam

[primal heart]

I don't think so.You're just against anything that weakens herbs,to oppose something that is obviously right.
It's always been the case that you out stm you can't use stm based ability.This is just a recent bug.And then you think it's something developers do specifically to make herbivores live happier.
How is that possible

[slim dragon]

It's not a bug it's an intentional change
Because it's an unfair disadvantage to herbs

It's been included in patch notes

It also doesn't really make sense that, for some reason, every attack except bites cost stam and then cannot be used at all

But bites are excluded from this rule

[primal heart]

Sorry you make me laugh.
If you really think so, then I can only support your opinion. Make that become truth and destroy this game

You teno out of stm and your stun kick can still let your opponent to shut up and can't bite.

If you think this is fair, you must be playing badly.In fact, it's almost impossible for teno to run out of stm.

[dusky surge]

it cant kick out of stam lol

[primal heart]

In hordetesting it can

Stego also can do normal tail attack and deal 1200 damage

[dusky surge]

yea, because that is effectively an alt-bite

it is following the exact same rules as everyone else

[primal heart]

So that should be fix

Because it's unbalance

[dusky surge]

It's not really though, because all animals have the ability to alt-bite out of stam

Otherwise fights would be nothing but "whoever runs out of stam first, loses"

Well, that's already how they are, but they'd be more like that

[primal heart]

You think deino can alt bite when out stm is good？

[dusky surge]

since everyone else can, yes

[primal heart]

Because it's better for the herbivorous,yes

[dusky surge]

it isn't though

[primal heart]

Run out the stm of herbivores is one of the strategies of carnivores, and this change makes it fundamentally unusable

[dusky surge]

if we REALLY want to play this game, then I suppose we have to give teno a 150 bite force, stego a 400 bite force and pachy a 70 bite force

just so they can keep up when they're out of stam

it's only fair that they can keep up when out of stam

[primal heart]

All you mean by fair is that herbivores don't get killed at all

[dusky surge]

herbivores get killed all the time because they are balanced differently to carnivores, god forbid

you just need to know HOW to kill them

i feel that rather than yell at the sky about how herbivores not being defenceless when out of stam is a bad thing, rather try yelling about how many of our carnivores are just not on-par with the rest of the roster (carnotaurus and dilophosaurus come to mind)

[primal heart]

You have an advantage when you have stm, and you are not at a disadvantage when you use up stm.
You are sooooo good

[dusky surge]

carnivores are at an advantage when they have stam too???

like why are we looking at this in a bizarre vacuum

i literally spent most of my time on hordetest on troodon and herrera, and the sheer amount of herbis i killed was actually insane

[primal heart]

Yes, carnivores have the advantage of running away when they have stm, because they can't beat herbivores

[dusky surge]

YOU can't beat herbivores. I can.

I literally spent hordetest doing EXACTLY that. Killing herbivores

[primal heart]

Try it. I have teno in hordetesting Na4 and Eu3

Carno in Eu1,Cerato too

All full grown,I can wait you full grown

[dusky surge]

Like, I think the issue is less "herbi OP" and more "why the hell are carno and dilo so goddamn bad atm"

Raptor is NUTS atm, literally your entire argument is dismantled by the fact that 2 raptors can basically pin and kill a cerato with ease, cerato has been consistently used as a "dibble killer" for the entirety of the hordetest, troodon has been buffed a ton to the point that it now MELTS targets using its venom correctly

Carno and dilo, however, have been entirely left behind, and carno has been bad for several updates now.

[primal heart]

Or whichever server, tomorrow I will have a full grow teno

[primal heart]

That's true

[dusky surge]

Like I'd rather buff these two really weak carnis than nerf the herbis which actually put up a fight and are fun to play against, rather than walking meatsacks

I want two strong dinos fighting, not one strong dino and another dino that has a billion weaknesses fighting and the strong one obviously winning

[leaden remnant]

only time you will see me saying this

dilo sucks so bad it's unreal

[primal heart]

Unreal yes indeeeed

[leaden remnant]

since for some reason it depends on a venom that doesn't even work most of the time

but carno is still great

[void wind]

Carno is not in a good spot, but saying it is really weak is just false
Still having fun as carno

[leaden remnant]

however hunting fully grown tenos is not a good idea

[dusky surge]

You can have fun as a carno but like... It's not good

It def needs buffs idk what to tell you

[leaden remnant]

when i play carno i just go against subs n small things

[dusky surge]

I have fun as hypsi, beipi, dryo and troodon

That doesn't mean these animals are objectively powerful in any extent, but I have fun as them

[void wind]

If you are good, carno is good, simple as that
It does need buffs tho
Teno is huntable, but it isn't even Carnos intended prey

[primal heart]

Carno can live well with Ai and dead body ,but bad at almost any fight

[void wind]

Also, i read that Teno can do kicks and tailslams on HT without stam?
Sorry, but that is ridiculous. Conserving stam should still be a thing

[dusky surge]

You put it pretty well here, I do agree with all of these statements, although I still believe carno's charge was pretty egrigiously overnerfed

I don't think carno needs buffs more than "making the charge less godawful and basically that's it"

[leaden remnant]

i mean i agree that carno is weird rn, it's playable and pretty damn strong if you are great but also can get melted

hold on wait wait wait tenos can kick when outta stam????

excuse me??

[dusky surge]

I haven't actually seen it so I have no idea if this is true lol

[void wind]

Someone mentioned that here in this discussion i think, was taken aback a bit lol

[leaden remnant]

better not be true

[primal heart]

In hordetesting it can and stego can do tail attack too

[dusky surge]

Although, I've also heard ALL of teno's hitboxes got a massive hefty nerf, so it's quite hard to actually hit anything with any attack either, so honestly I'd be fine if that was true

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah stego thing is dumb imo

can it use the powerswing when outta stam?

haven't seen stegos really use it anymore

[dusky surge]

nope

[leaden remnant]

alr good

[dusky surge]

the stego thing was something i was hoping they'd add for a while because, y'know, otherwise it's helpless out of stam

and the jab is effectively already an altbite

[primal heart]

I think stego should have a skill that can charge the tail attack 2 times when it is out stm, and needs time to recover without stm

[leaden remnant]

as long as it can swing when outta stam yknow

[primal heart]

I mean normal tail attack

[primal heart]

You can choose a mutation that injury regain stm

That give you endless stm

[dusky surge]

A horribly unbalanced mutation doesn't really make the issue any better

[primal heart]

One cerato charge bite can recover 30% stm

[dusky surge]

Forcing me to use a mutation that's extremely overpowered and punishes players for fighting me isn't a good solution to the "out of stam = screwed" issue. It just means that if I take that mutation, it sucks to hunt me, and if I don't, it sucks to be hunted

[primal heart]

I have to say that I never thought it was a good idea that you have to regain stm by lying down in the first place

[leaden remnant]

well it isnt a good idea

if that hasnt been made clear enough with gameplay itself idk what to say

[primal heart]

I would argue that you can only recover up to 60% of your stm by walking

[leaden remnant]

i honestly think that thresholds ruin the game and you should be able to get it back from 0% by trotting

[primal heart]

And this is what caused our stm attack problem

[dusky surge]

im fine with the threshholds, i think they're a decent idea, and don't believe that we should go back to how Spiro was with its stam

i think they need more work, but i prefer the concept

[leaden remnant]

as we speak im writing a feedback about why it just doesn't work

and brings too many issues

[slim dragon]

I'd replace the thresholds with curves

[leaden remnant]

i would somewhat support that

[slim dragon]

Curves>thresholds in almost every case

[leaden remnant]

because it just makes sense to me

[primal heart]

Also a good idea

[dusky surge]

i mean, i probably won't agree with it, because i personally think trot-sprint-trot-sprint of spiro was exceptionally uninteresting, and prefer the concept of trot actually being used for movement, rather than ignoring it because sprinting exists

i do prefer curves conceptually, however

[leaden remnant]

i agree and disagree with this

trot-sprint makes z walking useless

i like giving it an use, but not the use it has right now

[primal heart]

And quick get up cost no stm is bad too,but consider about stm are so important now, I accept it

[slim dragon]

If it was up to me I'd pair it with top speed being stamina dependent so you're more encouraged to keep your stamina topped up for traveling
Also doubles down as a logical and functional ambush and adrenaline mechanic

[leaden remnant]

you can run very quickly while not having much stam tho

like realistically speaking people would get very confused by it

[dusky surge]

Oh I completely agree with this, quick getup needs to actually have a penalty again

Punishing players who are resting is pretty core for hunting

[slim dragon]

Not as quickly as if you had all your stamina

[primal heart]

But it may be difficult to get them to change their speed for different stm level although I like the idea of that

[primal heart]

Yep

[leaden remnant]

actually you can run even quicker sometimes

sometimes when im preparing to do a very quick sprint i don't wanna be fully energized but a bit tired cause i perform better

[slim dragon]

you're just weird
Or you confuse "tired" and "warmed up"

[leaden remnant]

less chance of injury and faster cause im warmed up

[leaden remnant]

you gotta be a bit tired to be warmed up tho

[primal heart]

When your body get warm, you run faster and cost more stm when you feel hot

[slim dragon]

No ? That's what warm-up exercises are for

[leaden remnant]

i mean warmed up for a sprint

because you gotta run around for a while in a slow pace and then do many mini sprints

otherwise you'll most likely injure yourself

with mini sprints im talking about 3-5 seconds long

[primal heart]

So...keep running make you run faster,and cost more stm？

[leaden remnant]

and then you can rest for 1 minute and do the long sprint without injuring yourself

[slim dragon]

There's also the question of gameplay

[leaden remnant]

gameplay wise i honestly think that it's a bad idea

too restrictive

[primal heart]

True

[slim dragon]

restrictive ?

[leaden remnant]

forces you to not use any % of your stam out of fear, which makes it even worse than what we currently have

[primal heart]

I checked for the umpteenth time to see if my stm was over 60%, which is not a good feeling

[regal tulip]

need colors or lines on the stam bar tbh

[primal heart]

Anyway, voice your opinion, I guess that's what this channel is for

[primal heart]

Yes

[dusky surge]

yea that is annoying, it's a little unintuitive

[slim dragon]

@dusky surge make it 550kg
Or even 600kg

Also I don't think the pin exception is necessary now that grapple exists

[dusky surge]

Nah, that'd be too far imho

[slim dragon]

With how reliant galli is on running and how strong pounce bleed is, pin is absolutely unnecessary

[dusky surge]

IDK man, I think that's too much for galli. As it stands now, it's already a VERY good animal

[leaden remnant]

it would be too strong

would mow down entire raptor packs

and they would actually stand no chance

cant run cant fight

[dusky surge]

yea, that

im a fan of galli being stronger but like, that's raptor slaughter machine right there

and as much as i hate how strong omniraptors are, i'm a big advocate for everything being fun, not just herbis or carnis or whatever

[leaden remnant]

yes

[primal heart]

Why galli should fight raptor

I didn't get this

You can just get rid of them. I agree buff galli weight, but stun...no

[dusky surge]

The stun is already a part of their kit that comes naturally with the weight buff

It also made the engagement actually fun

I played during U6.5 when galli was in its prime, and it was the most fun matchups I ever had as raptor

[primal heart]

Galli can stun things sligher then it right？

[dusky surge]

Yes'

That's why it was able to stun raptors originally on release

But raptors could pin and kill them, making it fair

[primal heart]

Indeed it not fun

[dusky surge]

It was extremely fun for both sides. Original galli was some of the greatest raptor fights I ever got

[primal heart]

But what if raptor don't want fight

[dusky surge]

Then it has agility and can just pin the thing?

[primal heart]

can raptor git rid of galli？

I mean 510 kg galli

[dusky surge]

It can get rid of 425kg galli

Galli sucks at swimming, sucks at turning, sucks at acceleration

[primal heart]

But galli born from full speed they are easy to grow

You don't want die you wont

[dusky surge]

They also have an exceptionally long grow time

And no one plays them because growing them is not rewarding because there's literally nothing engaging about adult galli atm

[primal heart]

Indeed

[dusky surge]

So let them have the cool fight with raptor

It's something for raptor packs to actually test their mettle against

[primal heart]

How long did a galli full grow？I would suggest reducing their growth time.galli can threat any thing smaller than it.

It sounds bad especially when they have no reason to kill you.

[dusky surge]

Okay but why not keep the growth, increase the weight and bring back the actual fun 1v1s rather than making it just bully the little guys with no real fight

[primal heart]

I actually hardly play galli,maybe I should test their stun ability first.

And I don't know if it's grow time longer than raptor

[dusky surge]

I mean, they can't actually stun anything that really matters to them. Pretty much everything smaller than them already dies in a few kicks

[dusky surge]

It is

[primal heart]

sounds bad for 425 kg galli

[dusky surge]

Exactly

Make it 510 so it actually does things again

Worth the time of growth

[keen plover]

The stun only works on the alt attack btw

which means you have to be in their range

[dusky surge]

Didn't it work on the running kick too? Or are we talking about right now

[keen plover]

right now

[dusky surge]

Ah

[keen plover]

Idk about the ranges

[primal heart]

I actually like the idea that make galli 50 minutes grow time and keep 425kg

[keen plover]

They made grow times longer for a reason

[dusky surge]

That just turns them into another dryo rather than making it, y'know, fun

[primal heart]

Omnivores that run so fast shouldn't be involved in combat so often, especially if they're not stressed about food

[dusky surge]

The point isn't "I want the galli to be easier to grow", the point is "I want to have fun playing as and against galli"

[dusky surge]

Which is why they'd still get absolutely curbed by larger predators like carno or cerato

The galli I'm proposing is still worse in combat than launch galli, because launch galli had zero problems spamming kicks over and over again with zero penalty

[primal heart]

Hardly see any galli killed, my galli actually never be killed by predictor

[dusky surge]

You hardly see any galli, full stop

[primal heart]

All galli body I found is fall to death

[dusky surge]

That's because you ambush them

[primal heart]

Mine galli too, because it really boring

[dusky surge]

I wonder why I made my suggestion

Maybe because galli is really boring

If you agree that galli is boring, why push for shorter growth over being returned to the 510kg it once was? Shorter growth doesn't make something more fun, look at hypsi.

[primal heart]

My carno never catch a galli after they have no charge stun.

[dusky surge]

And like I've been saying, buff carno

With this hypothetical new galli, make a carno DESIGNED to hunt down small game, including galli, thus providing a consistent threat

[primal heart]

Because...maybe player still wont play galli even it can stun raptor？

[dusky surge]

We can't know that until we see it

[primal heart]

I think the reason why players don't choose galli is because they grow too slow, not because they can't beat omni

[golden coral]

Might be part of it, but it's more so growth time in relation to what you get out of it

[dusky surge]

^

U6.5 was swarming with gallis for a long time before the weight nerf

[primal heart]

Galli was positioned to stay out of harm's way, not to engage in combat

[dusky surge]

Still is

By all means, in a 1v1 with an omni, it has the disadvantage, even with stun

Omni can pin, outdamage and outdodge the galli, punishing galli by forcing it to make sharp turns and slowly accelerate

The fun of galli vs omni comes mainly from herd v pack

[primal heart]

I actually think stun is pretty dangerous and should've be easily added
except carno charge,almost every stun attack can hit twice even third time.

Teno just almost kill a cerato in one round

[dusky surge]

Back in the U6.5 days, galli was basically doomed the moment omni got the pounce. The bleed would force it to retreat or die as it fought

The omni, however, could survive several kicks, because they did low damage overall

In many cases, a single omni pounce killed a galli no matter what. If it ran, it bled out. If it rested, it got bitten to death. If it fought, either would happen

[primal heart]

this situation seems to be good in really and my imaginations, but in the game it is not fun indeed

[dusky surge]

How?

It was fun in practice, it's fun in your head, how is it not fun in the game

[primal heart]

I mean, galli does seem to me to play the role of prey, but no one wants to play prey in a game

[dusky surge]

Teno plays the role of prey, people play that

Why, because it's fun, and has an ample chance against some of its predators

[golden coral]

Mostly because prey always seem to end up being easy to hunt, without actual "we have to give up/we lost members" risks involved

[dusky surge]

Galli is fun because it's fast, yes, but giving it just ONE cool matchup where it's evenly matched does wonders for its engagement

[golden coral]

Teno is still fine, more or less. Not sure on the endlag and hitboxes, might have been a bit overdone there, but it does seem to still be capable of fighting well for being a teno

[primal heart]

Teno in game not seems like prey anymore,my teno just kill many cerato and bleed out many carno

[dusky surge]

A dilophosaurus would still be menacing to a galli, because a galli cannot stun a dilo, it cannot outdamage a dilo, and the dilo has venom/speed

Same with cerato and carno

The only matchup this actually truly impacts is raptor, which is fine, because raptor has enough tools to answer galli as a threat in the form of its agility, damage and pin attack

[golden coral]

So basically, proper, dangerous prey

That was kind of the point I was trying to make, it's a prey people want to play as, because it can actually go "no, you starve today" to the predators, more or less

[primal heart]

Teno is good at almost any way, the only thing you need to consider is you attack with your tail and foot.A lot of players might not be comfortable with it

[golden coral]

And while galli should always run, and it would, if it wanted to live, giving it the ability to at least in desperation, or in groups, put up a fight is nice. Even dryo in groups can do something

[dusky surge]

^

Galli should flee from like, most of the carnivores. It should flee the moment its outnumbered by raptors

Galli's primary response to most things, should be fleeing

[golden coral]

And any reasonable galli would rather not choose the 1v1 with a raptor anyway, since if you do mess up, you die

[dusky surge]

But allowing it this ONE exception, where galli really gets to flex its big boy dino muscles and pick a fight with a single scary predator of equal level to it, is undoubtedly cool and undoubtedly fun, and gives justification for the journey of reaching that adult point

[dusky surge]

^

The chances of the raptor winning that fight are high, a single pounce immediately spells doom for the galli. Even if you win, you might just die from your injuries shortly after

The idea is not "make gallis walk around stomping raptors to death". Raptors, by all means, should (and still) have the advantage in this matchup. It's just more of a FIGHT

The suggestion is let galli fight raptors, not let galli BEAT raptors, because galli should not be confident in a fight against a raptor. It should be nervous, weigh out its options, and choose if its wise to pick that fight

Right now, it has no choice, it must flee, because stastically it is at every disadvantage besides its mobility

[primal heart]

Ok maybe I just don't understand why galli will be killed by carnivore.if galli player really die in this way frequently,I agree buff galli's weight.

But I really don't understand why it has the same speed from new born to adult.it's never become a prey

At least for me...

I consider it's more about raptor pin and pounce is op,because you have no chance to get rid off it once raptor got you.

You should have chance to throw raptor off

[frail bobcat]

I swear to god, this Mr Carno woke canni guy just dislikes every herbi buff

[tropic horizon]

no bias whatsoever

[leaden remnant]

@civic widget get schooling fish, put them on the shore, wait 10 mins and eat them

they will have rotten and rotten fish give you 3 dot

get lines from elite fish, 3 dot from schooling fish and s from other deinos or anything else that gives it

[leaden remnant]

why do you care tho

[dusky surge]

because its funny

[dusky surge]

oh my god my galli feedback really doing numbers lol

i was expecting more people to hate it lol

[west plank]

Herbivores should always get buffs or new features, but only as much as necessary.

[dusky surge]

^

entirely agreed

[west plank]

Bro, I haven't been able to enter the game since 0.15 was first released. I only grew Diablo once, and I'm not in a position to play the game right now, and I won't be able to enter it until mid-August. Can I get back to the game before Rex or will I be too late?

[dusky surge]

i'm in a similar situation where i can't play for a while, and I have no idea

[west plank]

I hope we are not late :d

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message
does mean pachyceph also needs a weight buff so they don't get pinned

[shadow vortex]

They already weigh 500 and don’t get pinned by single omni

[steep echo]

the suggestion wants to increase galli weight to 510kg, and still be pinned by an omni.
By those conditions, a pachy would be pinned

[stark knoll]

When galli was first added it weighed more than omni but could still get pinned

It was unique in that case

[shadow vortex]

No. Galli was an exception since the beginning, and the person who suggested changes insists on keeping it so

[steep echo]

like a pin whitelist?

interesting

[tiny thicket]

Then what's the point of increasing the weight? if it is for stun then they can just increase the stun multiplier on Galli.

[stark knoll]

To increase its HP

[dusky surge]

increase its HP, blood pool, stun capability, overall survivability, and to better be in line with its growth time

because galli still takes longer to grow than omni, even though it's now smaller

[dusky surge]

oh, you do know the exception was never removed, right? Even after the weight nerf

young adult omnis can indeed still pin galli, despite being lighter

speaking of dear GOD that galli suggestion is doing mad numbers lol

[tiny thicket]

To me that is a lazy way to buff a playable just to create an exception for that one unique interaction. And increasing diablo from 2 ton to 3 ton just to increase its hp? diablo takes reduced damage from front if devs wanted it to be tanky they could increase the damage reduction or if they wanted diablo to specifically knockdown stegos they could just increase the multiplier.

[stark knoll]

You'll have to talk to Wave about the galli suggestion, I also disliked diablo's weight being increased

[dusky surge]

Nothing should ever get a weight buff because it's "lazy"?

Sure, it's nothing glamorous or gamechanging, it's just a little change that impacts a specific matchup that was once really, really fun

I also suggested a reduce kick stam drain because I think 5% for a running creature on its running attack is a little overkill

[tiny thicket]

Weight buff worked in legacy but evrima has ton of mechanics and tools at its arsenal, the question is which is a better Pachy? a 1 ton Pachy that doesn't apply bone break or 0.5 ton Pachy that does apply bone break every hit. Again not fan of why they tinker with pachy's ability to bonebreak, bonebreak is pachy's lifeline if it bonebreaks 50% of time then the Pachy is 50% alive and 50% dead.

[dusky surge]

weight buff literally works in EVRIMA because health = blood = weight

Also fracture still isn't chance-based

[tiny thicket]

I don't know how Pachy is on hordetest but last time I remember playing Pachy Omnis would take full blow of the hit and shrug it off like it never happened and the current grapple doesn't help at all.

[dusky surge]

probably because you didn't do enough blunt damage to whatever limb you hit

[tiny thicket]

Against an Omni? which is lighter than Pachy?

[dusky surge]

Yes

If it wasn't a fully charged ram, its possible you didn't actually meet the fracture threshhold

[cosmic pelican]

Or the omnis had fracture resist diet, or mutation

[steep echo]

I think 5% is fine on any other creature, but since gallimimus has so much stamina for running (like seven minutes or something) that 5% makes up a ludicrous proportion

[dusky surge]

i honestly think 5% is too much on many animals for an attack

[tiny thicket]

Are there different threshold for different body parts.

[dusky surge]

yes, but I don't know exact values. Generally, the body has the most blunt HP

[tiny thicket]

So if I hit the legs first and hit the body second does that mean I wasted 2 rams for nothing?

So basically I wasted stam for the omnis to pin

[rigid tulip]

#balance-feedback message

Ive seen coordinated cera groups have a friend spam spawn baby stegos to use as portable healthpacks with the eat to heal mutation

[dusky surge]

@golden coral another patch another stego nerf

[golden coral]

Yes, I saw. And nothing to compensate for it either.

[dusky surge]

lmao

[golden coral]

You know, like lower stam cost, removed or even reduced cooldown or, well anything really would be nice I guess

[dusky surge]

im not sure what is trying to be achieved here

[golden coral]

Food for allo perhaps, since that's now been confirmed

[dusky surge]

@golden coral "Adjusted the attack power of stegosaurus and diabloceratops to better match their growth"

This COULD imply a buff, given that stego now grows very slowly, but who knows

[golden coral]

Considering there's an outright damage nerf, I imagine that is more about how they grow in power during actual growth or so

[dusky surge]

Jesus Christ 71 people like this damn galli post lol

[leaden remnant]

im betting it's them not wanting stego players to use it besides on rex

and having to carefully aim it

[dusky surge]

they've made it that it just sucks to use ON rex

[leaden remnant]

we'll have to see how it goes to come to conclusions

but for now it just looks like they want to make it so that stegos only use it on rex and very carefully aim it

[dusky surge]

then they failed

by making it do less damage

[leaden remnant]

they said slightly

also ig it's cause it 1 shotted everything and everyone was going nuts with it

[dusky surge]

that's stupid reasoning, because it'd still oneshot the entire roster

[leaden remnant]

well i don't know their intentions, im just taking a guess

[dusky surge]

the only thing that'd impact is rex

added a cooldown = can't use it to fight off rex nearly as well
15% stam drain = if it uses it to fight a rex, it loses the stam it'd need to flee the rex
reduced damage = the hit does less damage and thus takes longer to kill a rex

looks like the changes exist to make it worse against rex

[leaden remnant]

i mean, if it can run, it won't fight, and if it can't run, it will fight

also it's 10% not 15

[dusky surge]

except it needs to run to fight, that's LITERALLY how the powerswing works

10% still way too high. Both carno and stego are key examples of how not to do a cooldown animal

[leaden remnant]

it can be stationary

[leaden remnant]

not saying it's the best idea yknow

im just tryna figure out why the devs decided it was a good idea to make it like that

make a crazy attack and then make it 1 use

probably so that the stegos can't spam it on rex? i don't know

or that if they use it on anything besides rex they won't catch up anymore...?

[dusky surge]

You either have a cooldown (dryo, dilo, diablo) or you have stam drain (like, every other animal)

Having both is stupid

It's clunky and defeats the point of having them

[slim dragon]

carno:

[leaden remnant]

i can only guess it's there so that ppl don't spam it and use it very wisely

[dusky surge]

Which is another animal that upsets me

Both carno and stego suffer from the exact same design flaws

They are UNIQUELY bad

[slim dragon]

yes

[dusky surge]

"This animal hits like a goddamn truck and is silent as hell so there's no way to react"

Both times, the solution should've been make the animal louder and give a significant warning period (which they TRIED to do with carno, but didn't succeed)

Because both animals have counterplay in the form of movement

[leaden remnant]

i honestly hope they keep the ram in the carno rework

i love the carno ram it just feels like thomas the train v2 it's hilarious

[dusky surge]

These nerfs honestly should just be reverted on stego (besides the sound change) once rex comes

Or just in general because it shouldn't HAVE these in the first place

The stamina is not nerely as offensive as the cooldown

[leaden remnant]

i would rather have cooldown than stam

cause stam itself is a cooldown

[dusky surge]

Well, I mean, that means you'd want the power swing to cost no stam

[leaden remnant]

no not in this case

[dusky surge]

Then you want bad design

Because it should be either stam, or cooldown, having both is absurd

The only time I can see having both being acceptable is with deino, who has a VERY unique ambush-type gameplay

And abuses its lack of cooldown to drown things it otherwise shouldn't

[leaden remnant]

not like it has stamina to even drown at this point

[leaden remnant]

well who said i agree with the changes 🤔

[dusky surge]

It does lol wdym, stam hasn't changed for it

[leaden remnant]

having something cost massive amounts of stam n a cooldown is probably not a good idea

[leaden remnant]

nah it cant drown a carno a stego a cera iirc and more

it runs out of stam unless you put em in the bottom of the highlands/water access lakes or below a log

[fiery shard]

well, ofc you do. who would doubt that deino is the one you'd like to see cooldown and stam, lmao

[leaden remnant]

so adding a cooldown would make it unable to hunt 👍

[dusky surge]

Then reduce the amount of stam it takes to hold something under if it's that bad lol

[leaden remnant]

just dont add a cooldown and we gucci

and reduce the stam

[dusky surge]

I think the whole grab, let you swim up, pull you back down is obnoxious and OP

[leaden remnant]

no you're in the water with it

[dusky surge]

Basically takes out the middle man of actually holding and killing the prey

[leaden remnant]

if the deino wants to play around with you, why not

[dusky surge]

It's not playing, it's literally more viable lmao

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah grab u put u down and bite you then put u down again etc etc

it's the only way to kill most things so

[dusky surge]

Yes, that's generally the best way of doing anything as deino

[leaden remnant]

it ain't op, it's the only way to kill

... or put it below a log

[dusky surge]

I seriously haven't struggled that much with it, most things drown fast enough in a single lunge if I preserve my stam

[leaden remnant]

i alwyas have full stam

myself and every single other casual deino player cant drown them by holding

because it has no stamina to do it, it runs out before certain dinos drown

which also happen to be pretty common dinos

so the only way to kill them is grab em put em in the middle bite grab put in the middle bite etc

also adding a cooldown to its only hunting method is probably one of the worst ideas ever

[dusky surge]

I mean, if it can actually DROWN what it grabs in a single lunge, it really shouldn't be an issue

If the issue is the hunting method necessitates spamming lunge, then maybe that should be addressed

[fiery shard]

well, this problem has already been solved in the latest patches. stam wasted during a lunge is now less