balance-feedback-discussion

[split atlas]

This arguement is us making a point then rat saying “nuh uh thats not what the devs want”

[tired shard]

Bro we’re getting nowhere I’m not wasting more time on this

[dusky surge]

Your point is "design the game like a deathmatch"

Because people play it like a deathmatch

[split atlas]

BECAUSE THATS WHAT PEOPLE TREAT IT AS

[dusky surge]

Rather than "design the game like a survival, so more people play it as a survival"

[split atlas]

IDK HOW MUCH MORE IGNORANT YOU CAN BE

[slim dragon]

I think there was a misunderstanding
Wasn't the idea in favor of "alt-attacking with a broken leg deals self-damage instead of alt-attacks being fully disabled" ?

[dusky surge]

The idea is pachy does damage to itself when it rams

The fracture idea was fine.

[slim dragon]

Is that so ?

[tired shard]

That was not what I was implying bub is correct in what they said

[dusky surge]

I'm fine with alt-attacking at a penalty when fractured

Because that's conveyed and part of an existing debuff

Not like self-damage being cooked into pachy's base kit as a permanent punishment for daring to make an attack

[split atlas]

YOU JUST DISAGREED WITH THYA

[dusky surge]

Oh? I thought I disagreed with pachy dealing self-damage with every ram.

Pretty sure I made that clear that was my problem

Having it as part of leg fracture is perfectly valid

[split atlas]

?

[dusky surge]

I thought we were still talking about pachy I guess

[slim dragon]

So I was right
There is a misunderstanding

[tired shard]

It didn’t seem that way, it seemed that you where disagreeing that the game isn’t essentially a deathmatch

[split atlas]

Yea

[dusky surge]

It isn't, I stand by the fact it isn't

[split atlas]

Except it is

[dusky surge]

But regardless, giving alt-attacks at a penalty to fractured dinos is fine

Perfectly valid, due to how much leg fracs butcher self defence

[split atlas]

Your contradicting yourself lol

[dusky surge]

Where

[split atlas]

^

[dusky surge]

Expose the contradiction, I'm pretty sure I've been straightforward thusfar

[split atlas]

Go look at the message i replied to

[tired shard]

He did say that

[slim dragon]

If players treat it like a deathmatch doesn't mean it actually is one.
And if it is, it needs to be changed towards being a survival game, because that's what it's supposed to be.

[dusky surge]

I was assuming we were talking about a completely healthy pachy defending itself

And taking damage for it

[split atlas]

“In no universe should you be punished for defending yourself”

[split atlas]

Even so 0.5 dmg shouldnt be a problem unless your ATTACKING THEM

you do one ram to the leg then run

[dusky surge]

Shouldn't be a thing regardless (unless you are suffering a specific debuff that would cause that)

[tired shard]

Pachy being able to fracture your leg in half a sec isn’t really catered to a survival experience it’s more so combat deathmatch behavior, if it was more about survival you’d have more assentive to run after fracturing a dangerous opponent

[dusky surge]

It's very much catered to survival, too much so in fact.

The idea is a quick fracture and flee

[split atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/negawatt-nega-watt-gif-925117326718678952

[tired shard]

Bro what

Actual rot

[dusky surge]

Multiple hits to fracture makes it less likely to get the fracture and have the time to escape

[split atlas]

He one thousand percent forgot to take his schizophrenia meds

[dusky surge]

It is designed around the solo survival experience

[split atlas]

If the community doesnt like that they should think about their actions when KOSING as pachy against babys and more

[tired shard]

Why would you need to quick fracture if you flee beforehand it should only be necessary in an ambush situation, and even then the carnivore should be rewarded in that instance, not the other way around where the pachy is the one constantly ambushing and predating the carnivores

[dusky surge]

Deathmatch pachy was back when it did, like, 300 damage on a fully charged sprinting ram, but had a much harder time fracturing. It also stunned carnos with its ram, allowing it to basically just a whole carno to death, solo. It had a MUCH faster time to kill and was encouraged to do so.

Current pachy does literally fractions of its prior damage, but much higher fracture damage, to ensure it focuses more on getting a fracture first, but losing in overall damage trades.

[split atlas]

I cannot tell you the uncountable amount of times ive been KOSED by a pachy as a bby for no reason

[keen plover]

What is wrong with that? Everything does it? Why should pachy have a worse time doing that when you can hide?

[split atlas]

Whos everyone

I dont hunt babys unless i am STARVING

[tired shard]

In reference to what I said?

[keen plover]

Anything around pachy speed is capable of running down and killing juvis

[split atlas]

Except they shouldnt BECAUSE THEY ARE A HERBIVORE

[tired shard]

Oh nvm

[dusky surge]

I've seen pachys, dryos and tenos all do it

[keen plover]

Dryo is a very good juvi killer

[dusky surge]

It very much is

[split atlas]

Never been killed by a teno as a bby unless i attacked it

[dusky surge]

Lucky

[slim dragon]

Herbivores must eat grass

[split atlas]

And ive never seen a dryo as a baby

Nor have i ever seen them go for babys

[keen plover]

It isn't about whether or not they do it, they're all capable

[dusky surge]

The issue isn't how pachy is balanced. It's pachy. Pachy literally is built around the idea of hitting first, ask questions later. A fractured carno cannot chase you later, you have basically just made the food safer by ambushing and fracturing it.

[split atlas]

It is about wether or not they do it

[dusky surge]

Pachy's core design principles lead to aggressive play

[split atlas]

Every dino could be a kos baby killer

[keen plover]

That's based on our experiences. I've been chased down by tenos and dryos as a juvi a lot of times.

[split atlas]

Im just not even going to continue this this is literally going nowhere its us continuously saying the same stuff its a circle

Yk what

[dusky surge]

Let's compare pachy and anky

Anky uses fracture as a reaction/punishment. It is too slow, big and loud to ever sneak up on something, turn around and strike it with its tail. It waits for a predator to pursue, then hits them with a fracture, ensuring the predator cannot continue its persuit without risk of death, and waddling away happily. Its armour easily protects it from most predators, the fracture adds as another form of security.

Pachy uses fracture as a precaution/punishment. It is slower than a good amount of creatures, sure, but it's still quick, and its attacks are placed at the front, and encouraged to be charged up in advance for a heftier blow. This insentivises pachy to attack first. It has lower health on account of its small body, and no armour besides on the head, which means it is ENCOURAGED to be facing its opponent. It punishes things for getting too close, same as anky, but it also uses its speed to sprint at them, and given how quick/agile it is compared to its fractured foes, it has no quandries finishing the fight.

Your core issue lies in pachy as an animal

[split atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/did-not-read-didnt-read-talking-heads-letting-the-days-go-by-gif-21389543

[dusky surge]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-sonic-ok-and-gif-21699346

I gave you your answer, you can choose to not read if you want man, no skin off my back.

[graceful swallow]

They almost ain't comparable being in completely different weight classes, only thing I see similar is they use fracture as a niche

[tired shard]

You should have to put in more work than what it takes now to completely disable and dispatch players who spent hours to get where they are, it’s simply not fair from a gameplay perspective, I get if the pachy had to put more thought into defending itself to the point of leaving their attacker vulnerable, rather than assualting anything and everything that comes within view distance. You don’t get to ask questions later as the player on the receiving end because your fate is sealed before you can even make a decision to defend yourself or run

[split atlas]

I read it and it still doesnt make sense for kosing random dinosaur lol

[dusky surge]

You literally cannot remove the KOS from pachy

That is your TL;DR

[split atlas]

Get this

[dusky surge]

It is encouraged to do it.

[split atlas]

Not it is not 😭

[dusky surge]

It is DESIGNED to attack first.

It is designed to be facing its opponent and charging up attacks to cripple them

[split atlas]

Attack first not see a carno 10 kilometers away and go after it

[graceful swallow]

Some do it better, like imo the best baby snatcher/killer has to be troodon or galli for their speed and or size

[slim dragon]

That's how irl herbivores work

See another animal
Is it a threat ?
Idk
When in doubt, kill it

[tired shard]

But that doesn’t mean your whole body should be broken in less than a sec because some rock head bastard wants to teleport around you like some dragon ball z character

[dusky surge]

TBH, if a carno manages to have that happen to them, that's uh

That's a skill issue.

[split atlas]

No it is not lmfao

2 good pachys can kill a carno with ease

Ive killed a carno solo*

Carnos are ass in the first place

[dusky surge]

You either lessen the fracture damage, making it near impossible for a pachy to fracture larger, faster predators like carno (and thus most likely dying to them because it also cannot stun said carno for the reason of not letting it stunlock the thing into oblivion), or, ideally, just make the fractures (specifically leg) less insanely brutal

[graceful swallow]

How many bites does it take to kill a pachy as a ff carno, I imagine not very much so I think it is a skill issue if your a fg

[dusky surge]

If you only hit body? 3 bites

[split atlas]

So your trying to say if a squirrel sees a dog it should kill it

[dusky surge]

Only headshots? 4 bites

Only tail-base hits? 5 bites

This is of course excluding factors like alt-bites, which increase damage done, or head fractures, which decreases bite damage

[split atlas]

I could link 10+ videos of pachys killing a carno in a group of 2-1

[slim dragon]

Not a dog
The other response being

If cannot kill, run

[graceful swallow]

I'd say if the carno does everything right and is fg, it should be able to take on 3 pachys fg

[tired shard]

The latter seems more appealing and fair

[dusky surge]

I 100% agree

[slim dragon]

But dogs are rarely a threat to squirrels

[graceful swallow]

Yeah on people who have like 5 hours playing carno I guess lol

[dusky surge]

To be honest, the balance state of carno leaves a little to be desired, but that's not the point here

[split atlas]

How i would love to live in a world where a carno could 3v1 pachys

Im not trying to be mean but Thats delusional atm

Carno can get beat in a group of 2 by a single teno

2 omnis can kill a carno

2 dilos can kill a carno

[dusky surge]

Again, carno is just in a bizarre state

[split atlas]

Not bizarre just ass

Terrible turning bleed defense and dmg is ehh

For charge

[tired shard]

I’m quite good at carno and I don’t touch tenos with a ten foot pole, I’d rather fight a cera tbh

I didn’t mean to reply to that lol

[split atlas]

Ik

[graceful swallow]

The 3 packys would have to be in voice chat sweating imo to beat a fg carno unless it's skill issue, I only say this because the carno would have to be super passive to die to 3 things 4 times smaller then it

[split atlas]

Kakashi are you hearing this lmfao

[tired shard]

Nah man the pachys win hands down

[split atlas]

It takes 3 rams to completely disable a carno

Cant see cant run ect in 3 hits

[graceful swallow]

What I'm hearing is pachy must be the ultimate dino in the game ATM

[split atlas]

Like

It quite literally is

[graceful swallow]

Also do y'all think misses never occure?

[tired shard]

Against the main playables yea lmfao, especially if you only play solo

[split atlas]

Never said that

[keen plover]

2 pachys (with current cooldowns) is enough to drop a carno

[tired shard]

^

[split atlas]

Without being in a vc aswell

[graceful swallow]

Well you can dodge packys rams pretty reliably maybe not against 3 tho

[tired shard]

Why do you think there’s always atleast one group of pachys on the map at a time

If not more

[split atlas]

Do you want a player 0 pachy video really quick or smth

[graceful swallow]

No it wouldn't be a good example cuz he had prob over 1000 hours on that animal

[tired shard]

Well it is a 100 player server but you rarely come across just one pachy

[graceful swallow]

Need average players for good examples

[split atlas]

If your good at aiming you can hit next to all of your hits

[tired shard]

Bro I literally posted a video of a dude with 0 zero hours on pachy ducking everyone up

[split atlas]

Yea

[tired shard]

It took him less than 30 minutes to pick it up

[split atlas]

But he was in a very large group

[tired shard]

Yea but that’s usually how it goes

[graceful swallow]

If this is all true game balance in shambles rn lmfao

I'm not fully up to date with balance

[split atlas]

Sounds like fq doesnt play

[graceful swallow]

I do but not latest patch search my steam lol

[split atlas]

Birds been writing for multiple mins

[tired shard]

I’d rather run into mixpackers than a group of pachys tbh

[keen plover]

nah I tabbed out lol

[split atlas]

Agreed

Oh lol

1 pachy can solo a cera if they are slightly more than evg

[keen plover]

ehhhhh

[split atlas]

That isnt even eh

[tired shard]

Nah I can’t agree on that one

[keen plover]

I can see it happening over time tbh

But not in a straight brawl

[split atlas]

I do it a lot

[tired shard]

Unless you’re below adult or something

Yea

[split atlas]

Well not a lot as the pachy

[keen plover]

Like getting the initial leg fracture and running in and out every so often

[graceful swallow]

I do remember getting absolutely smashed by 2 packys on Spiro as a fg cera, but was def prob skill issue

[split atlas]

But i get my ass beat by solo pachys as a cera

[keen plover]

nah thats how it is

[split atlas]

On a avg

[tired shard]

That amount of damage they did on spiro is a lot more than now but they still do damage lmfao

[split atlas]

Rat finally went quiet

Thank god

Yk what i think im gonna troll in suggestions from now on then act like i dont speak english when someone says smth about it

[dusky surge]

Hey guys I heard someone celebrate my departure

[split atlas]

Jesus christ go back away

[dusky surge]

No.

I'm done playing with my dog

I don't even know what I did to you

It is funny though

[split atlas]

Jesus i read your bio you did IT it all makes sense now

[dusky surge]

What does it have to do with anything lol

Baffling

[spark crater]

Imma be honest I was just kinda ticked off when I wrote that
I had a group omnis with me and we were taking on a teno, stego, and mixing deino near the water
pachy showed up out of nowhere and kept on running at us and then back to the safety of the stego
after we killed the teno and waiting for the stego to try and heal bleed, pachy suddenly fractured three of us in the leg, spammed crouch as if t-bagging, and then killed the three of us with fractured legs.

I do think that yes, tapping and then getting a fracture is annoying af tho
maybe make it more like a charge that goes in one direction and gets a higher chance of breaking bones as it charges forward?

maybe I'm still salty, idk.

[dusky surge]

fracture ain't chance based like legacy's leg break

it already does work as a one-directional charge tho

pachy can't change its direction while using ram

[tired shard]

It’s almost instantaneous though. More of a build up would be a lot better so it can actually be parryed

@arctic pewter that Dolph pfp hard asf

Rip that mane Dolph ong

[leaden remnant]

honestly i believe that raptor requires an absurd level of skill to get the true raptor experience

any small mistake leads to death unless you're near a high place that you can get on, which can be countered by herreras, and everything wants to kill you

and also you have too little stamina to take your time in killing something (if you always play with a pack you're good) so you have to be constantly baiting attacks and nibbling its tail/head for like 2 minutes before the prey dies

so you have to be 2 minutes hitting its head and tail without being hit more than 3 times (tail hits tho) with a bite cooldown that makes it practically impossible and while being at risk of being 1 shotted by a good alt bite (cera and carno only)

[tired shard]

^^ this is exactly what I meant, though for me personally some fights can last for like 30+ minutes

[split atlas]

Like i said im done with the convo im going to sleep lol

[leaden remnant]

yis dw just leaving that there

[leaden remnant]

wait 30+ minutes? damn

[tight cove]

@split atlas one of the worst balance feedback suggestions I’ve ever seen why do you want that in this Dino game? 💀

[split atlas]

I was trolling xd

[leaden remnant]

LOL

[tired shard]

(Usually if I’m trying to kill a juvie stego with an adult)

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah i understand that

[split atlas]

^

[leaden remnant]

the way i deal with that is by trying to get the babus stego killed by the adult one

[split atlas]

Yea

[tired shard]

Yea same but some are smart

[tight cove]

U got me 💀

[leaden remnant]

usually stegos are so bad at fighting that they literally try to bodyblock the small boi and eventually kill him

[tired shard]

They can really dwindle your health with their bite

Surprisingly

[leaden remnant]

3-4 body bites put you on orange

[dusky surge]

i mean... stego has little options tbh

but yea, stego is horrible in herds due to its clumsy attacks

can't wait for stego kit rework

[split atlas]

Stego gameplay

pick stego
go to MZ
get all of diet
afk
Get close to no diet or food
repeat till fg
nothing can kill you woohoo go kill everything

[leaden remnant]

yeah stego is not very good rn imo

[tired shard]

That’s a plus 2+ Stegos is always a problem

[leaden remnant]

specially since when you run outta stam it's joever

[dusky surge]

i agree, stego is in a bad spot, hence the rework

dude, the stam thing is absurd lmao

[split atlas]

Stego was js added too early

[dusky surge]

ehhh, not really

as long as deino exists

[leaden remnant]

the stam thing is absurd indeed

[split atlas]

It has no real preds

[dusky surge]

but if deino didn't exist, absolutely, added too early

[leaden remnant]

actually raptor is a good stego killer

[split atlas]

Deino literally loses a 1v1 to a stego lol

[dusky surge]

so?

[leaden remnant]

i'd say that it's the best

[split atlas]

Ye sometimes

[leaden remnant]

practically all the time ngl

[split atlas]

Atm yea

[dusky surge]

troodon, omni, cera and dilo can all kill it so it don't really matter

[split atlas]

Most deinos also just dont go for stegos if they’re solo

[leaden remnant]

dilos can literally solo a stego so

[tired shard]

It still takes a decent amount of skill with the tail hit box

[split atlas]

Any dino can theoretically solo a stego

[dusky surge]

for the best

deino shouldn't mess with stego

deino is designed to not mess with anything outside its preferred weight

[split atlas]

I just think we needed more mid tiers that could fight a stego equally

[dusky surge]

Said midtiers would destroy our current roster lol

[leaden remnant]

equally fighting a stego...

[dusky surge]

Also, a midtier fighting stego equally? Jesus

[split atlas]

Depends on the definition of midtier

[dusky surge]

What's your definition?

[split atlas]

A dinosaur that isnt the strongest but not weak

[tired shard]

Below sucho, cerato and above; carnivore wise

[leaden remnant]

huh

pretty much all dinos are strong in some area

troodon isnt the strongest but it can really obliterate you if you aint careful

[split atlas]

Yk what nvm idef like arguing abt it

[leaden remnant]

lolz

i feel you

[tired shard]

I feel like sucho and acro play a semi-apex role

[dusky surge]

I just refer to them as "large"

[split atlas]

They literally are semi apexs lol

[dusky surge]

because, well... they're large

[leaden remnant]

that's whenever we have em...

[dusky surge]

Also pseudo/semi-apex is a dumb term imho

[tired shard]

We don’t care

[split atlas]

Here we go

[tired shard]

Fr

[split atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit-cj-gta-gta-san-andreas-gif-13933485

[dusky surge]

lmao what

[split atlas]

You

[dusky surge]

Me

[split atlas]

Are you illiterate

[tired shard]

Nah fr I swear mfs will find any reason to argue lol

[split atlas]

Y

O

[tired shard]

Or disagree for no apparent reason

[split atlas]

U

[dusky surge]

M

E

[split atlas]

Yea you got it?

[dusky surge]

I just... don't like the term? Like what is the problem with calling it large

[split atlas]

Holy hell

[tired shard]

Bro I’m not doing this

[split atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/helpgoro-help-me-kms-goro-akechu-goro-akechi-gif-21832347

[dusky surge]

I'm so genuinely confused lol

[split atlas]

He’s actually stupid

[leaden remnant]

question if you don't wanna argue why you in a discussion channel

[split atlas]

How can one be so ignorant

[leaden remnant]

if you wanna go eep or sum then go eep

[split atlas]

I dont wanna sleep anymore

[tired shard]

Now you’re trolling

[split atlas]

Now i have to argue with a err err person

[leaden remnant]

im not trolling 💀

[dusky surge]

expresses minor opinion about an arbitrary naming scheme
"IGNORANT FOOL YOU ARE, HOW DARE YOU MAKE THIS STATEMENT"

what tf did I even do jesus christ, you guys are the ones digging for reasons to argue

[leaden remnant]

im actually extremely confused now

[split atlas]

Weve been arguing with him all day

[leaden remnant]

why r u in a discussion channel if you don't wanna argue, just say goodbye and dip

[split atlas]

Cause its a challenge to be so dumb

[dusky surge]

how is it stupid to prefer a name

[tired shard]

No literally and he has the audacity to be like, I haven’t said anything to y’all. Like bro

[dusky surge]

What the hell is going on

This is genuinely confusing lol

[leaden remnant]

i am losing my mind i dont understand anything

for once in my lifetime i agree with mr rat

[dusky surge]

Welcome to the party

[tired shard]

Nah you’re disagreeing just to disagree atp like you understood exactly what I was referring to but yet you still felt the need to go out of your way

[leaden remnant]

what the actual heck is going on

[split atlas]

Do i have to explain it slowly?

[dusky surge]

I've literally held the opinion that psuedo-apex is a silly name for ages now? I'm not "disagreeing to disagree"

Do we HAVE to have this stupid redundant argument

[split atlas]

Except there 0 reason to bring that up

We literally couldnt care less

Well we do care

[dusky surge]

I'm glad to see you at least admit you care enough to make a scene over it lol

[tired shard]

Bro you’re the one trying to start arguments you didn’t even have to bring that up, no one asked nor did we care about your opinion on the word semi/pseudo apex you understood exactly what we were talking about and it didn’t contribute anything fr

[split atlas]

youve made plenty scenes yourself

[dusky surge]

I've literally never called any of you ignorant or stupid lol, so that's a pretty solid distinction

[tired shard]

You can’t say that I’ve called you anything

[dusky surge]

True

I appreciate that

[tired shard]

On that note I hope you guys have a good rest of your night/day

[split atlas]

I sure as hell have and will continue

[dusky surge]

For disagreeing, I'm sure

[dusky surge]

Anyway, good night to you too man, sorry for frustrating you lol (I have no idea if it's night for you but good night whenever that is)

[split atlas]

“I am inherently superior to you in all video-game based arguments sorry”☝️🤓

Ai ahh bio

[leaden remnant]

that is a joke 😭

[dusky surge]

There's no way you're taking that seriously

[leaden remnant]

that's just him trolling in his bio man

[split atlas]

Still wondering wtf your pfp is rat

[dusky surge]

Oh it's fanart

[leaden remnant]

in my bio i have "my associates and i engage in a relatively small measure of fun at others' expense" it doesn't mean that i actually go around trolling the crap outta everyone

[dusky surge]

Someone made me a cool 3D model

I can't ignore that hard work

[leaden remnant]

wait you too?

my pfp was a gift 3 years ago lol

[split atlas]

Except thats somewhat funny rats is uhh cringy tbh

[leaden remnant]

never changed it ever since

[dusky surge]

Someone put a lot of work into this, wtf

[leaden remnant]

that's fine you have your opinion

[dusky surge]

You just wanna hate to hate now

[leaden remnant]

hes saying your bio

[dusky surge]

Ah

[split atlas]

You put a lot of work into the 30 secs making your bio?

[leaden remnant]

he thought you were talking about the pfp

[dusky surge]

We were talking about pfps :P

[split atlas]

I mean that too

Looks like a 2016 yt laser eyes meme on a random dude

[dusky surge]

What drives a man to be so toxic over literally nothing

[leaden remnant]

frustration or having no respect at all

[dusky surge]

What darkness dwells in their heart

[split atlas]

The isle

The devs

Life

The afk simulator game we play everyday

[leaden remnant]

the isle and the devs frustrate you so you just absolutely troll others in a non friendly way (the actual word is blocked)

[dusky surge]

IDK man I don't have a problem with any of those things

[split atlas]

I once wrote 5 paragraphs on why a little kid should stop posting on instagram

He deleted his account

Was never heard from again

[mint star]

what happens when someone has a slight approval of allosaur being added to the game

[dusky surge]

oh god

[mint star]

it is like an infection

[split atlas]

Its straight brainrot

[leaden remnant]

LOOOOOOL

[uneven wind]

@analog mirage i killed 2 Tentos as 1 adult dilo yestwrday and they arent op

[analog mirage]

From what I’ve mostly heard and played. Teno is dilos hardest matchup especially at daytime

[rigid tulip]

I swear every dev team is committed to decreasing the amount of skullful interactions in their game in order to balance

[distant torrent]

@rigid tulip pretty sure (not 100% sure) that the teno interaction got a favor for it because the wonky servers just won’t allow for that skillful interaction anymore

so as far as I’m aware, the server situation will have to be fixed before it even has a chance to be skillful again

it’s been a hot minute but I think the interaction was added before charge was changed to need a windup for a knockdown? back when the charge was genuinely oppressive and teno had no way of countering it

I know it was a specific update that just butchered that skillful matchup. I remember playing teno with 2 others when it came out and getting so confused as to how the people I was playing with was dying easily to a singular carno lol

[analog mirage]

Teno has always been able to counter charge with Tailslam. It didn’t for one update due to a bug and was fixed

The reason it seems so Teno favored is because Carnos knockdown became a joke

[distant torrent]

I’m pretty sure it persisted until teno finally got a dedicated interaction. I played teno for a long time, and slams never successfully stunned a carno without getting stunned too, so it was constantly an easy trade. 350 damage + a bite or two after a short stun vs 150 damage and a complete knock down

yes the slam could still stop the charge, but it caused a trade off if you were lucky no matter how great your timing was

[analog mirage]

That wasn’t intentional. Teno is supposed to cancel the charge if it reacts in time or sees the Carno coming

But Carno straight up can’t do much due to knockdowns being unusually long to do

So Teno just gets to win

Not even mentioning how most Carnos don’t do a good job of setting up ambushes

[tired shard]

Even if you manage to the get a successful ram, the amount of stam you need to use over that distance will leave you in a bad position, and most of the time the teno will just chase you around biting your tail to prevent giving you distance to charge again

You’ll eventually loose most of your stam and have to engage directly

(Which usually doesn’t go well)

[distant torrent]

which is good. carno should need buddies to have a chance at killing a good teno since they have the ability to completely control the engagement with their speed. making a playable both powerful and fast isn’t very good for balancing

what needs to happen is the stam cost of ram should be lowered, and the wind up should only be for things that weigh about half the carno’s weight or above. things smaller than about half its weight, such as galli, dryo, omni, dilo, younger stegos, etc. shouldn’t need a wind up (aka the things it should be hunting solo or in pairs)

I’d also prefer if carno (and everything else, really) got more diet from organs. I’d also prefer if carno needed to eat less to account for the diet geared towards smaller prey

[analog mirage]

So what you are saying is that Carno is the issue not Teno

(This is true)

[dusky surge]

carno is, indeed, not in a good spot lol

[distant torrent]

the biggest issue to me is the wonky servers that just refuse to be fixed

can’t have a skillful interaction if the server’s being stinky

teno’s fine. carno needs adjustments to help its niche

[arctic pewter]

tenos def need to be nerfed

[vale harness]

fr. i dont get why everyone is so against it 💀

[keen plover]

Stamina nerf + making it so the "tail armour" doesn't play for the whole animation

[arctic pewter]

it really does like i enjoy playing teno i do but its just wayy too easy for anything that tries to fight it to just get stun locked and tail slammed to death and it hardly uses any stam just needs to be adjusted

[keen plover]

by stam nerf I mean increased cost of the slam & kick

The stuns are whatever

Tail slam also isn't that damaging although its a great setup

[vale harness]

honestly dude. teno takes stun to the max and along with its kick with some of the best bleed and damage, dude is just blatently too strong rn

[golden coral]

Wonder what the hunting rates look like for various critters, solo in and groups vs solo and grouped tenos

[arctic pewter]

agreed

[keen plover]

🤔

[vale harness]

ion wanna sound like a grandpa but back in my day teno was respected for being dangerous only when the player was good. not for everyone with a pulse

[golden coral]

Would be interesting to know, just to see if a nerf is needed or not

Would be an interesting way to approach balance for that matter

[keen plover]

What has changed apart from the stamina cost? Tail slam used to be a lot stronger and the stuns were longer as well lol

[keen plover]

ngl I don't know if we should base it on that? I folded a pack of 10 + omnis as teno but they sucked

[arctic pewter]

and carno needs something changed as well like maybe more prefered food or less time to have to charge up to knock something over carno at this point is a joke and you can tell hardly anyone is playing carno

and if they are they are mixpacking

[keen plover]

Like the average player is terrible so its kind of hard to tell if the playable is too good or not in some instances

[vale harness]

kick was sped up maybe 2 or 3x. stamina decreased from 10% to 2% that's insane. kick damage and bleed has been buffed through the roof. slam has been nerfed to the ground. a lot has changed

[keen plover]

Kick has been the same 275n damage since update 4.5

[golden coral]

Do you have any patch notes for any of that?

[keen plover]

and they haven't buffed the bleed in any of the patch notes

[west plank]

Too much

[keen plover]

Its still the same 3 kicks to bleed out a carno if it runs

Tail slam used to deal 250n damage but was nerfed in 6.5 to 150n

[vale harness]

you want a patch note that they sped up kick 2-3x?

[golden coral]

Well, you always balance for capability, I was thinking more so that you might be able to look at the overall results in some manner. Not entirely sure how, just thought it might be interesting, at least if we go by the idea that carnis should fail more often than not

[golden coral]

Yes, you can't just come in here and claim some change

[west plank]

Even if Carno hits the charge, he only has the right to turn and hit once, while Tenonto has the right to hit 3 times.

[vale harness]

bro what...

[keen plover]

That's because knockdowns were gutted and that sucks for carno lol

[vale harness]

i belive 4.5 ill look

or 4.75

[golden coral]

I don't recall any changes to teno attack speed, nor any changes to bleed, at least nothing recent. The tail slam being nerfed, yes, but that was quite a while ago, in order to make kick the main damage dealing attack.

[golden coral]

What? You pointed out a bunch of changes, of which most I have no recollection of, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some form of evidence?

[west plank]

I think it's enough for the tail kick to hit a stun, but when you add a kick stun to it, it becomes exaggerated.

[vale harness]

best i got

[golden coral]

Thank you! Didn't recall that, but so noted then!

[vale harness]

yea

[keen plover]

what patch was this

[vale harness]

it feels 2-3x. no idea how fast it is compared to before

[west plank]

Kick stun should be deleted for the adult carnotaurus.

[keen plover]

No lol

[vale harness]

0.8.75

[golden coral]

Bleed enabled make it sound very old to be fair

Cause surely kick has done bleed for very long?

[keen plover]

4.5 I'm assuming

[vale harness]

nah even in update 4 kick didnt do bleed

[golden coral]

Unless that was some temporary change for some other reason

[keen plover]

4.5 did

[vale harness]

honestly if they made kick weaker and buffed slam to be about equal damage i think that'd work. i only have a problem with teno being better at chasing down, stunning, and killing dinos, rather than defending itself

[golden coral]

Trying to figure out when exactly U4 was xD

[vale harness]

u4 was diets

and pachy

[golden coral]

Like, first iteration of diets?

[keen plover]

december 2021

[vale harness]

yea old bad diets

[golden coral]

When everything was gathered around oasis and all that?

[keen plover]

yes

[golden coral]

Alright, yeah, long time ago, you'll have to forgive me for not remembering much of what was patched back then

[vale harness]

graphics looked nice though

[keen plover]

I wouldn't mind this, but chasing down dinos isn't an issue? I can think of 1 dino it can chase down

Like its great at defence and chasing down things it already applied bleed to

[golden coral]

I didn't mean anything bad by asking for evidence, just so we're clear, but that was quite the while ago, so not strange that I didn't recall it

[keen plover]

Which is a non issue since you had to engage with the teno and probably got really hurt lol

I think its fine if herbis can kill confirm tho

others might not agree

[vale harness]

nah i mean how every teno will chase down every single dino whether or not they can catch it and not be punished for playing even a little defensively

i dont mind herbivores being agro, but teno takes it too far

[keen plover]

Increase the stamina cost of the attacks. That's the main reason they can be so confident in chasing things

since I can run you down and still have 20 attacks lol

[golden coral]

Anyway, I do think the idea of tail being more "zoning", and kick being the main damage is a good idea, back then you'd just tailslam and call it a day. And claw being oriented for smaller/agile critters makes sense too. And last I checked, teno could do with a stam increase in attacks, 20-25 attacks is plenty enough, or should be, for most circumstances

[vale harness]

yeah i agree with that, still dont like how smaller dinos get 1 combo'd but that my opinion

[golden coral]

If needed, make teno more inclined to be at water for escape, and let diablo be the aggressive one instead

[analog mirage]

I’m late to my own discussion

[keen plover]

Fair. I understand that. It is a bit annoying at times

But at the same time, I think teno needs the ability to quickly kill small tiers

[golden coral]

I think that's fine, would make sense that teno is very good vs smaller, but it might be a bit too good vs larger things as it stands, or they're not quite good enough at scaring a teno

Though in general, you should be able to avoid the slam, and even the kick, decently well as a smaller critter

[keen plover]

I personally think we shouldn't over nerf teno, rather give it some reasonable nerfs and then buff cera / carno

[analog mirage]

But IMO I think tenos attack stam cost should be slightly increased and maybe making the tip of the tail not knock over

[vale harness]

i mean yea. they should get punished, but dont you think the damage and bleed are good enough alone. i mean a utah isnt recovering from a kick anytime soon. herbivores should be able to kill. doesnt mean everytime they need to kill the attacker

[golden coral]

In theory, no, in practice... not so sure

Because we are humans, and humans are bad at accepting a failure/loss

[vale harness]

thats true

[golden coral]

Thus, if you don't kill them, they'll come back and try again

[analog mirage]

Tbf Teno is built to be a brawler. It’ll combo anything. So considering Omni and dilo are Inherently small. Yeah they get messed up

[keen plover]

Yeah players keep coming back, especially in packs

[golden coral]

Or even if you do, they'll come back as babies xD

[keen plover]

I'm still annoyed that juvi raptor takes a lot of stamina to buck off & it still applies bleed to large creatures lol

[golden coral]

Ideally, I'd agree Wyatt, it would be nice with more fights ending on a "I'm out of steam, time to back off", or via injury, but if those pachies let the carno limp away, that carno will come back when the leg is fixed

[analog mirage]

Bucking in general is weird atm

[golden coral]

Because it does need food, and they are made out of food xD

[vale harness]

yeah i get that too. maybe more things could change around teno rather than just nerfing teno. although i still think the stamina is overtuned

[keen plover]

Imo bucking a juvi raptor should mean its instantly thrown off (if you're large enough) + it should deal 0 bleed damage to stuff like cera, carno and teno

[golden coral]

Also people tend to not want to admit to being outsmarted, so instead of "oh no, they got into a defensible position" it's "cowards, come out and fight me" xD

[golden coral]

Agreed. The stamina seems a bit overtuned from what I've heard, like having 30+ attacks, which isn't needed, or should be. If you're in that kind of situation, running away should be the option, not fighting

[vale harness]

i agree with that

[keen plover]

Remember Omni is also getting a few things soon

[analog mirage]

That’s how I feel with stego. Or should almost (at least a few seconds) buck off a raptor instantly and use little stam. So they need to use the pack to force weight on it to get some decent bleed off

[golden coral]

Carno being so bad currently is because somehow, you need to charge for 5+ seconds, charge, not just run, to get a knockdown, which makes little sense and gives any target all the time they need to step aside

[keen plover]

The ability to pounce the rear again, group pin and some pounce improvements in general

[analog mirage]

Instead of just one guy taking nearly 25% of a stegos stam

[golden coral]

Honestly not a fan of them getting rear pounce again, I'd rather just widen the angles a bit but keep the no no zones, but alas

[keen plover]

Yes I agree a lot with this. I want raptors to use their numbers to get on a target and wear them down. Solo pouncing vs large animals shouldn't be as good as it is now.

I despise how easy it is to counter omni lol

[analog mirage]

I can see no rear pounce for stuff like stego. And no head pouncing for tall playables or stuff with dangerous heads like Pachy and dibble

But something like Dilo or idk let’s use Teno should be pouncable anywhere

[keen plover]

Fair, but the current implementation is janky

[keen plover]

nah

[golden coral]

It is, but adjustments would be nice, at least try that first

[golden coral]

And yet, omni must use pounce all the time, because... it's cool I guess xD

[keen plover]

Face pouncing deserves to not exist. If you're facing the omni you shouldn't have to worry about it unless it can get around you

[analog mirage]

I just feel the “no pounce” zones should be varried between playables

[golden coral]

I still think pounce being a finisher would have worked better and mitigated terrain "issues" much more

[golden coral]

That's fair, it really is an issue of how the omni just ends up on the side

Maybe if it took some time, so you could buck before it can start attacking

Like, you pounce the face, or tail, you can buck while the omni is "climbing" into position, thus possibly knock it off before it can even start attacking you

[analog mirage]

Dilo is pretty much is the same (relative) size as Omni. There’s no reason it shouldn’t be able to pounce it from really anywhere

Something like Carno who is generally taller and stronger I agree no face pouncing

[keen plover]

I get that dw. I had a very similar idea but man does it suck to be pounced when you face an omni. It also stops solo raptors from trying to go after animals larger than itself since you can always face it

Keeps them to hunting smaller animals solo + the occasional bad pseudo mid

[analog mirage]

The issue I see with face pounce. While I agree it’s annoying sometimes it becomes a detriment when someone just alt bites into you preventing you from pouncing.

Yeah you not only bitten in the face but canceled your pounce

But I get what your saying

[keen plover]

Fair but you can also use your numbers to get around and now that rear pounce is being added, its much easier to land pounce

[golden coral]

Doesn't it make sense though, you just took a hit in your face, you would be thrown off your course at the least

[analog mirage]

Yeah I guess. Just ingame it doesn’t look good

I pounce, carno alt bites. I stop

[golden coral]

Add the knockdown xD

[analog mirage]

Dear lord

[golden coral]

That'd make it look better, but would probably not be fun for the omni

[leaden remnant]

bruhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[analog mirage]

<@&933486433342222376>

Anyways back to the discussion

[golden coral]

I tend to favour pounce as an ambush mechanic, so to me it makes more sense to only pounce if the target is unaware of you

No need to worry about them altbiting you when they don't even know they're about to be hit after all

[analog mirage]

Also quick note about alt bites….why do they need to deal more damage than a regular bite. You already will most times headshot for people behind you.

It also just promotes alt bite spam

[golden coral]

Good question, I don't know, there's not really any reason, I don't think

Aside from "they take stam" so compensation maybe?

Or the whole "you turn your entire body, more power behind it"

[keen plover]

Carno's 2nd attack is lame regardless

[analog mirage]

[golden coral]

But really, there's no need for extra damage, the entire point of them is the directional attack ability

[analog mirage]

Charge is a mess

[keen plover]

I love POT carno (its a mod) due to the ability to actually use a headswing yk? Cool ability

Does knockback

and can be used while standing / running

[golden coral]

Charge, pounce, lunge... most mechanics have issues at the least

[analog mirage]

I would not mind charge being replaced with a head swing

Or giving it as a “tap charge”

[keen plover]

I'm kind of annoyed rex is getting it and not carno 😭

I want knockbacks though, so you can push same size but vs small tiers it can be a stun

[analog mirage]

What you could do. Keep charge high risk high reward ambush tool with fine tuning, and make “tap charging” a quick head swing

[keen plover]

I'd make charge a knockdown tool only ngl

[analog mirage]

(Yes I know charge currently is terrible as ambush tool)

[keen plover]

Well 150n damage in that example

so Carno could combo it when an animal is thrown with the head swing and bite

[analog mirage]

Here’s my idea

[golden coral]

And yet, it could have been really good, both as an ambush tool and outside of it, and all they had to do was find a way to make it so nothing above 900 kg gets knocked down, and nothing above 1.350 kg gets stunned, or something like that (and just tack on 50 weight/health on the cera to put it just out of range), and there you go

[analog mirage]

Head swing (used by tapping rmb while running): 195 damage causes minor bleed and knockdown to 1T. From there to its own weight you’ll push them to the side though they can still move unlike a stun

Holding rmb is charge: 175 base damage but holding for 3 seconds makes it 300. No stamina drain but 10% activation cost and 40 second cooldown. Will knockdown up to 1T and if you hold for the 3 seconds you’ll be able to knock over to your own weight

(You will stop charging after holding for 6 seconds to prevent spam)

Forgot to add but lower the sound of charge a little

[rigid tulip]

Nah its cause in the situation of a carno charging and a teno slamming simaltaneously, there is no longer any way to win as the carno no matter hoe good you are

[analog mirage]

So what you are saying is that Carnos charge needs to be made better for ambushing so it can properly get the upper hand quickly. Because Teno is a defensive animal. If it sees you coming its gonna slam you

[rigid tulip]

No I just want the carno to be able to successfully knock down teno even if the teno presses tail slam

[analog mirage]

Carno isn't built for brawling, Teno is. Obviously up close it will have the advantage. Thats why Carno needs to ambush it

[rigid tulip]

Unless the teno slam actually hits before the charge hits.

[analog mirage]

The issue is that now we reverse the role where Teno can't do anything and just has to get hit by charge to death

[rigid tulip]

I agree and this was how it almost always was. When this interaction was in the game my friend solo’d two carnos as a teno.

[analog mirage]

Which is why it was terrible when the slam was bugged

[rigid tulip]

No u misunderstand. All im saying is that slam should only stop a charge if it actually hits the charge.

[analog mirage]

...Thats how it works

[rigid tulip]

So you have to time it and the carno can juke and win based off of that

[analog mirage]

I tailslam, hit the carno who is charging, i stun it

[rigid tulip]

Not last i played. The slam made you invulnerable to charge during the duration of its animation

[analog mirage]

Is the hitbox a bit wonky yes, but that is exactly how it works

[analog mirage]

Because the charge was canceled. That is the intended action

You are defending youself

[rigid tulip]

It should only be cancelled if the slam hits before the charge

So its a game of “let me juke this guy and mix up my speed” as the carno. And “let me aim right and time it right” as the teno

Currently its “im going to slam so he cant charge me at all”

[analog mirage]

When you mean "Before the charge" do you mean before the charge hits you? because that is how it works. if the carno is charging and I hit it while its charging then yes it gets slammed

[rigid tulip]

Which is just less skill ceiling and less gameplay depth

[analog mirage]

If you mean how Carnos insta. Charge that is not intended

[rigid tulip]

If your tail is at the apex of its animation, where its not even technically moving downward yet you still cancel charge

[analog mirage]

You realize Tailslam takes 1 second to hit. you do not have enough time to juke a 1 second attack when you are right in it

[rigid tulip]

It should only cancel charge if your slam hitbox physically hits the carno. There should be no special interaction. If im facing my tail to a carno and slam as he is charging he should stop and be stunned. Yes. However if i am facing my tail towards the carno and I slam too late I should get knocked down

This is the situation I advocate for

Its hard to explain

Timing based

[analog mirage]

That is how it works. What you might be experiencing is latency

[rigid tulip]

I was told teno was given a specific unique interaction? No?

[analog mirage]

As far as I am aware that is how it works. I tailslam and hit the carno if its in my hitbox

[rigid tulip]

In my experience if i get the jump on a teno by the time im already about to hit it and he starts his animation- he is safe. Which is bs. I completely outskilled him

This didn’t happen at all before gateway

And i was told that it was specifically added as a unique interaction with gateway

[analog mirage]

nothing new was added to it

If you want I can hop on an admin server and show you

[rigid tulip]

Im not home currently unfortunately, but are you saying that its a latency issue?

[analog mirage]

Yes. if tailslam is hitting you when on your screen you are not near the teno yet. its Latency

Which is something that will just kinda happen sometimes. nothing you can really do

In all games

[rigid tulip]

Well no what i mean is when i am charging a teno- and im about 1 meter away and he just starts the animation- he gains invincibility to my charge

The tail doesnt actually hit me until AFTER i hit him. But the animation itself protects him

Because I hit him during the animation he wins

[analog mirage]

Carno itself is rather tall and hitboxs are fairly large to prevent sceneriops where you should have hit something but didnt. So because Carno is so tall that might also be why

But other than Tenos slam being fixed nothing new to it has been added. Carno is just the one with knockdown being a joke atm

[rigid tulip]

Its strange because I have never had this experience until gateway. And I played significantly more teno back then compared to now. I swear I heard that it got a “hyper armor” of sorts on its slam animation but I could be wrong. I wanna test it before i say more

[analog mirage]

Tailslam has priority over charge which is why it gets canceled. But that’s nothing new and has been ingame forever

At this point I’m not entirely sure what to tell you other than it’s likely a latency problem and that nothing new has been added

[rigid tulip]

Yeah all im saying is that i remember losing that interaction due to poor timing and I no longer experience that despite me playing less now and also playing on higher ping

[keen plover]

Yeah this is dumb

Even when the tail is down, the charge is still cancelled since the animation is still playing

you get a mini stun as carno

Should reduce the window

[grand grail]

Small game hunter carno is such a leap in logic for a survival roster. The virgin carno small game hunter VS chad small game hunter omni lol, omni's kit including its hitbox is easier to make hits on small targets, can track babies through foliage easier, can turn easier, can pin sub adults, uses bleed effectively instead of slow raw damage from carno. It basically has every advantage over carno you can possibly think of for a small game hunter.

What is the ACTUAL point of playing a small game hunter carno for more maintenance and more growth time when a solo omni accomplishes the role 10x more effectively? Am I supposed to play carno because it looks cool, not because it does anything uniquely well? And don't say because it ambushes well. The ambush is awful, the charge is made for hit and run tactics that eat 50% of your stamina and the movement is made so that you can't effectively reengage a knocked down opponent.

Wanna know who doesn't have that issue? Omni. Because it is a superior small game hunter in every single facet.

[leaden remnant]

imma be honest man

absolutely everything you said here is wrong

raptor is not a small game hunter, you need more to sustain a whole pack

raptor's hitbox is absolutely horrendous

raptor being fast and turn good is because otherwise you are literally useless

like you get 1 tapped by absolutely everything when carno can tank many hits

[grand grail]

you don't need to tank hits when you have high agility

[leaden remnant]

wanna know what issues raptor has rn?

• since magnetic pounce was removed, it bugs a lot and gets you killed
• carno charge hitbox is horrendously big so you can get away from a carno and still die
• raptor, being so small, has no health, its only strategy to survive is getting on high places which pachies and herreras can counter
• raptor has no stamina, this boi needs to spend 7 times more stamina than anyone else to kill the same thing
• raptor gets 1 tapped by a carno charge a herrera pounce a deino alt bite a cera charge to the head with a normal hit i think? at least when full health, a teno kick to the head a stego swing

i am surprised that you think raptor is op when you need 3 of the most skilled players in the whole game to be able to survive

[grand grail]

when did I say it was OP? I said it's better at a small game hunter role, which it is.

why are you bringing up fighting adult carnos ceras, deinos, and tenos with raptor when I'm talking about the small game hunter role

[leaden remnant]

oh well then i must've misread

[golden coral]

There's a point to it, omni does hunt small game very well, far better than carno does. Anything smaller than omni gets pinned, and dies. And pounce can be used more or less point blank (I don't believe the angles apply on pinning?), and omni is smaller, stealthier, can chase quite well, and doesn't need to kill via pin damage, since bleed works quite well too, especially on smaller things with much less blood in the first place.

[leaden remnant]

it still is not a good small game hunter compared to carno

[golden coral]

It is, it is by far better

Remember, small game is relative to your own size

[leaden remnant]

what do u consider to be small game

[golden coral]

For an omni, anything smaller than it

[leaden remnant]

just to be sure

[golden coral]

But probably, I don't know, 200 kg or less

[leaden remnant]

okay then we can't compare we need a set thing

[golden coral]

Dryo sized, homalo, beipi, troodon

[leaden remnant]

oh well

[golden coral]

Of course we can, omni hunts things smaller than itself really well

[leaden remnant]

ive always thought of small game as anything below a cera

[golden coral]

That's because you're only thinking of it in terms of carno there as the hunter

[leaden remnant]

that's why i say that carno is a better small game hunter, because my boi just megabonks anything and practically 1 taps it

[golden coral]

"small game" for a rex sized animal would be something carnos would need packs for

So you need to look at the playable, and go "how well does it punch up/down"

[leaden remnant]

okay but if we're talking about hunting small game, we need to define small game

small game has pretty much always been pachy and below

[golden coral]

Yes because we've only used carno as the hunter

And I'm trying to point out that the definition would have to be in relation to the hunter

[leaden remnant]

so speaking about that, carno has a better chance with mostly everything unless talking about the mega small tiers

dryo and stuff, yes, raptor is better cause it doesn't sound like a truck

[golden coral]

Is troodon not a punch up animal if we no longer let it hunt things above teno size? No, it still is, because to a troodon, a teno is massive. Same with omni for example, even if omnis could "only" kill things up to 4T or something, that'd still be punching up, making it a good "large game hunter"

[leaden remnant]

if you want to survive on dryos as a carno good luck, you gotta hunt minimum a pachy/raptor

oh yeah raptor is an amazing large game hunter

can practically kill anything if you have enough people

[golden coral]

Omni is good at punching both up and down, too good even, and only really struggles vs same lane somewhat

[unborn iris]

You almost disprove your own point. Carno has a lot more trouble with pachy/raptor than raptor does with anything smaller than it.

[leaden remnant]

carno 1 taps pachy and raptor so no

[golden coral]

But that's a common trend with pouncers, being able to punch up far too high, due to mechanic being what it is

It's not just about how hard you hit, you know that right?

[unborn iris]

Oh, so you just kill every pachy/raptor you run into?

[golden coral]

As people tend to miss when they talk about stego, power, sure, but it's no good when you can't bring it to bear or hit the target and all that

[leaden remnant]

im aware, but if the point is who hunts pachies/raptors/gallis better, carno takes the win

[grand grail]

^^^^^^

[leaden remnant]

yeah carnos always do that

[golden coral]

Sure, because to an omni, pachy, omni, and galli (though gallis get pinned, do they not?), those are same lane animals

Not "small game"

[unborn iris]

Not when I'm on raptor..

[leaden remnant]

you gotta be the luckiest person alive

[golden coral]

If you're arguing "is omni as good as carno at hunting this specific target", sure, we can look at targets one by one

[leaden remnant]

there's a trend in the raptor mains that we always kos carnos because almost 100% guaranteed they'll kill us

[unborn iris]

Just need a couple thumbs and some spatial awareness.

[leaden remnant]

or at least try to kill us

[golden coral]

But the other persons point was that omni is a great small game hunter, and it is, for what constitutes small game for it

[leaden remnant]

not talking about them suceeding or not im talking about them trying

[golden coral]

Omni is better at hunting it's small game, than carno is at hunting it's small game

[leaden remnant]

yes, carnos try to kill absolutely everything they see unless it's too much for them to overpower

[unborn iris]

We are specifically talking about them succeeding, actually.

[leaden remnant]

then pretty high rate of success

[grand grail]

Carno just needs a complete rekit or something it's been a janky balance fest as long as I've followed this game

[leaden remnant]

okay hold on im getting absolutely confused

what r u guys even saying

this doesn't even make sense if we don't set a standard

what is small game? anything pachy or below

[unborn iris]

I'm not trying to say carno is weak. I'm just saying it's not well-designed, or basically what it's supposed to be.

[leaden remnant]

well carno is the biggest obliterator ever tbh

idk if yall have ever played raptor to say that

[grand grail]

what lol

[unborn iris]

I mostly play raptor.

[grand grail]

If you mean carno is the biggest stamina self obliterator then yes

[unborn iris]

Carno needs some love. Too many people confuse that with thinking that means they need to be stronger.

[leaden remnant]

so

let's compare carno to raptor in small game hunting

[golden coral]

Anything sufficiently small or large, in relation to the hunter

You can't have a set definition since sizes varies

[unborn iris]

Small game is surely defined relative to the hunter.

[golden coral]

You need to understand that, if we're going to have a productive discussion

[grand grail]

Imo it needs both because its small game role doesn't fit for the creature's design and bite ratio. It just needs to be rethunk entirely

[leaden remnant]

raptor:

• can pin gallis

• can bleed out things

• is fast and agile

• can jump
  i have absolutely no idea what else to add

• a mistake usually means death

• has horrible bleed resistance

carno:

• can insta charge and 1 tap all small game

• has inmense health

• it is the fastest dino in the game

• it is the strongest land carnivore in the game

• has bad bleed resistance

• has terrible turning

• charge costs a lot of stamina
  let me know if i missed something

[leaden remnant]

uh the opposite

small game is a set thing that has no relation to the hunter

[golden coral]

No, no it's not

It has to be in relation to the hunter

[leaden remnant]

no it doesn't...

[golden coral]

Yes, because otherwise you can't talk about same lane, punch up, punch down

[leaden remnant]

if we don't define it with a set standard we won't get anywhere

[leaden remnant]

those are completely different concepts

[golden coral]

And what we mean with "small game" is basically "this hunter punches down"

[leaden remnant]

they have no relation with small game

[golden coral]

Why would they be different concepts, when it's a matter of what kind of prey you're designed to hunt, those that are smaller, those that are larger, or those that are your own size?

[leaden remnant]

that's why we need to define small game without any relation to the hunter but as a set standard, otherwise we can't even tweak anythnig

[leaden remnant]

you're supposed to hunt, for example, as a carno, small game, which is defined as pachy, raptor and anything below that weight

therefore you're a small game hunter

[golden coral]

The thing is, you can't really define small or large game without the relation to the hunter, since the hunters size determines what is small or large

[distant torrent]

the thing to remember about carno is that it’s the fastest playable. balance-wise, it’s not good to make a playable both insanely fast and strong. with small game, they have a far easier time outmaneuvering them and don’t just get obliterated immediately with numbers with no chance of escaping

the playable is in a very awkward state right now

[leaden remnant]

honestly i'd say that what determines what is small or large is the current available dinos that we have

[golden coral]

Large prey to a allo is not the same as large prey to a troodon, small game to rex is not the same as small game to a carno

[leaden remnant]

right now a carno is big game

when we have more dinos it'll be mid game

so based on that, carno is a great small game hunter cause it's the fastest boi around and can 1 tap everything

[golden coral]

Yes, for a carno that is. A homalo, or beipi, or troodon, isn't "small game" for a carno, it's too small for that, but it wouldn't be too small for an omni for example

[leaden remnant]

all that you mentioned is a snack for a lone sub raptor

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that make omni a good small game hunter then, hunting those things that are small in relation to it

[leaden remnant]

well not if small game is a set thing and not a variable thing

not saying it's not a good small game hunter btw

[golden coral]

It's like saying carno is apex right now, or "big game" when it's not, it's the size it is, it being "large game" would be in relation to what is hunting it

[leaden remnant]

don't get me wrong raptor is an amazing small game hunter

but carno is just the best there is

it's the fastest, it can 1 tap you, it has inmense health...

[golden coral]

Unless you want to make it as simple as "anything smaller = small game" and "anything larger = large game", but then you also need to figure out what counts as same size, unless it's literally the same size

[leaden remnant]

same size as the dino ofc

[golden coral]

And no, carno isn't that good, one tap can be done via pounce/pin too, health isn't really useful here, speed is, but so is stealth and point blank attack

Right, but that means you can only count others of it's kind

If you go by exact same size

Instead of saying that omni/galli/pachy/dilo are all about the same size, hence same lane

[grand grail]

Galli is faster with buffs. Making something both fast and strong isn't a bad thing when animals that are defensive like teno don't care about speed because their combative kit counters nearly everything carno can do to them. The playable is awkward because it isn't working, the goal post for where carno will end up in a 50 playable roster needs to move.

[unborn iris]

I don't know.. I feel like lowering carno ram cost a good bit and using the cooldown to limit it would go pretty far.

[golden coral]

Carno is overall pretty bad at being a small game hunter, since most of the small game, or generally things smaller than you, are going to be faster, stealthier, and more agile. And carno, with new funny marathon charge, is really bad at that. Granted, it might be good without using charge, but for the mechanic, it's really not that good at hunting small game, while pounce works better for it.

Nah, just remove most of the damage, give knockdown immediately again, and limit knockdown to 900 kg or so

[unborn iris]

That would be interesting.

[golden coral]

No more funny "instant charge/knockdown" cera and teno, which were the problems, but can still take down the smaller things that can hide, juke, or otherwise have ways around carno

[unborn iris]

Yeah, the knockdown delay does seem pretty bad.

It still stuns them though?

[golden coral]

Instant charge isn't a bad idea, instant knockdown isn't bad either, it's the limits of the ability that changes things

Being able to instantly knockdown/stun a cera or teno that can't juke you in time, bad. Being able to do so vs an omni or dilo that should be more skittish and has the agility (or in dilos case, NV vision) to avoid, works

[leaden remnant]

whoopus i went afk

so uh carno as a small game hunter is amazing let me say why

faster dino there is, insta charge deals a horrible damage, it can tank stuff like nobody else (excepting deinos and stegos smh), it deals a ton of damage

and you guys can exclude anything below a galli here no carno on his right mind would waste his time unless starving

im also excluding anything below galli in the raptor because no raptor would kill anything below it

it is just useless it gives you nothing

[golden coral]

Speed is not that important, insta charge works, but knockdown is lacking, tanking stuff doesn't matter. Dealing lots of damage works, but you need to reliably land that damage.

[leaden remnant]

so because of dis, a carno can 1 tap a pachy/raptor/galli which is way better than anything else, it can run em down, if they wanna fight back it can 1-2 tap em, etc

[golden coral]

Yes, it can one tap, but how easy is it, is what matters

[leaden remnant]

uh how is speed not important

how da hecc is the reason carno is so op not important

also even without knockdown carno is an excellent hunter

[golden coral]

Cause you're not looking at the actual requirements for being a good hunter, which comes down to, how well it can actually get the small targets in question, which isn't that well, at least not if it uses it's mechanic fully, as intended. Since no small game is going to let a carno hit it when it has to run for 5 seconds in charge mode, to land a knockdown.

[leaden remnant]

well yes but the speed is literally the biggest reason why it can reliably kill them

put a carno as slow as a cera good luck

[golden coral]

Yes, you can use insta charge with damage, but you're missing out on the knockdown, which is why the charge is in such a strange state right now. And sure, speed is important, if you're not playing ambush or persistance. But speed itself isn't needed, if you can do something else.

Technically, with instant charge, if you gave carno instant knockdown as well, it could get away with being cera speed

[leaden remnant]

btw charge is stupid rn it should not cost so much stamina

[leaden remnant]

honestly no

[golden coral]

Granted, stealth might be a little iffy for the carno, but you'd have great point blank killing power vs smaller things

[leaden remnant]

carno must be way faster than anything else it hunts because otherwise who the hecc would even fight it

[golden coral]

It could, you just would have to properly ambush

[leaden remnant]

just get away

[golden coral]

Which, admittedly, would be a little iffy for carno, but probably doable

[leaden remnant]

uh i mean it's doable but

[golden coral]

Right, but you're not getting away if it hits you before you can move, and can do so sufficiently quitely

[leaden remnant]

its prey is on plains, good luck catching up

[golden coral]

Yep, hence why it's not an ambush predator

[leaden remnant]

the reason carno can kill ppl is because it can run em down

[golden coral]

Just trying to point out that speed isn't inherent to being a good small game hunter, you need a reliable way to hit the small game, that's basically it

And that's why carno has always struggled with it's role

[leaden remnant]

uh how has carno ever struggled at 1 tapping others

[golden coral]

"reliable way to hit the small game"

One tapping doesn't matter, if you can't hit in the first place

[leaden remnant]

you absolutely can hit it

[golden coral]

Why stego is so underwhelming, because for all of it's power, it's clunky, as carno charge used to be

[leaden remnant]

you need skill tho to kill something

if that's not obvious i don't know what is

[golden coral]

Yeah sure, with new instant charge you can, but back then, you only really got hit by charge if you were afk

[leaden remnant]

a skilled carno can absolutely kill 4 extremely skilled raptors

[golden coral]

Not sure how that's relevant to the point, those four could split in four different direction and at best the carno would get one of them

Of course, people tend to flee together, for some reason, so there is that

[leaden remnant]

the reason it's relevant is because i feel like you're trying to make it look like a skilled carno isn't able to reliably hit the prey

i have no idea where that comes from since carno is the greatest small game obliterator

[golden coral]

I mean, if the prey is skilled, it can juke, if it has those abilities, or otherwise avoid, granted it's mostly omni that can juke, but pachy can kind of counter

[leaden remnant]

well yes but they need a way to get away right?

carno can't have a 100% succeed rate

[golden coral]

Yeah? I'm not questioning that? I'm saying carno isn't, though it's kind of getting there, well designed for hunting comparatively small game. And if you do utilize the charge fully, you're not good at it. If you only use bites, or instant charge, then you're better at it.

[leaden remnant]

okay im a lil confused so please excuse me if you've said this before, but how exactly is carno not well designed for hunting smaller prey than it?

[golden coral]

If you had to use charge fully, as in, charge long enough to get a knockdown, you'd be hard pressed to find much that you would hit that is in the range of small game and doesn't have a way to counter or juke

[leaden remnant]

oh yeah no the charge is a joke right now

it is absolutely a joke

[golden coral]

Because it's a, open, clear, visible, loud attack, vs something that can see you, and avoid you, or in pachy case, turn and ram you

And that's kind of what we've been arguing, compared to omni pounce, hence why omni was said to be good at hunting smaller game

Omni pin = very effective way to kill things smaller than it

Carno charge = not as effective, unless instant charge, but even then, you could probably just run and bite

[leaden remnant]

i see, however i must say that there's gotta be a way to survive an ambush

[golden coral]

Rather than use more stamina than needed for a, from what I know, not fully powered charge

Since I don't think the charge does full damage unless you charge for sufficient time, but I could be wrong there

[leaden remnant]

it can't just be 100% rate, an ambush is when someone is off guard and pays with his life

[leaden remnant]

well charge does inmense damage right now, pretty sure it does full damage

oh wait no my bad my bad

[golden coral]

Well yes, again, not saying there can't or shouldn't be counters, more so looking at how well the mechanic works for the targets you're meant to go for

[leaden remnant]

it doesn't do full damage, mb

[golden coral]

I'm not sure, I know even instant charge does decent damage, but I don't know how much in comparison with a bite

[leaden remnant]

the other day i did like 60 3v1s and 1v1s as a carno, lost one

raptors and pachies

and yea the charge is a joke

i practically never used it

[leaden remnant]

uhhh an insta charge to the head is practically death

if you're not dead im surprised

[leaden remnant]

that's fair, waht changes do you believe are the best for it?

[golden coral]

I said earlier, I think carno should get knockdown back, limit the damage on the charge so you use it to knock the dilo/omni/pachy down, and then kill it with bites. And to limit the range of stun/knockdown so it can't do that to same size or similar things, so no more insta charging tenos or ceras and bullying them. An omni or a dilo should be wary if they go out in the open where carnos are known to roam, but they also have the speed and agility to escape more reliably, and in dilos case, go out at night.

[leaden remnant]

agreed

[golden coral]

As for omni, I would adjust the pounce angles to start with, not a 100% sure on giving rear pounces back outright, but the angles could use some work. Aside from that, pounce to pin remains to be tested, so can't really say much on how that will go as it stands.

[leaden remnant]

knockdown is a fair thing as long as it doesn't really 1 tap you

[leaden remnant]

i've gotten way better at pouncing at the side but that's just me

[golden coral]

Well, I prefer for playables to utilize more of their kit, so comboing charge with bites seem good

[leaden remnant]

i have to get the most skilled raptors that i know and form a pack to be able to reliably survive

[golden coral]

I would like to see something similar for omni to be honest, but that would require far too many changes

[leaden remnant]

and im talkin about ppl who casually solo a stego

[golden coral]

But I dislike when a playable is, or tends to be "just do this one thing over and over"

[leaden remnant]

okay what i just said is off topic

[golden coral]

Teno good animal, various attacks for various targets, and combo possibilities

[leaden remnant]

that's not cause of the pounce it's cause of other things

[leaden remnant]

that's when other things come in place

for example exploring, nesting, etc

to some degree, it just has to be that way

however since fights usually aren't the same thing all the time, it's kinda alright imo

i'm sorry for mentioning raptor at all times but it's what i'm best at and can practically only speak for it, each fight is exciting ngl

we can go hunt tenos and i can end up killing a fg teno myself with literally only bites or i might end up dead

we can also go hunt stegos and die first try or end up soloing a fg stego

it's nice to be that nimble, feels very good

[frail bobcat]

aint no way bro is yapping about teno nerfs AGAIN

[leaden remnant]

LMAO

[frail bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/yapping-yapping-level-today-catastrophic-yapanese-gif-13513208407930173397

[leaden remnant]

teno does NOT need a nerf

tis very good at its state rn

[golden coral]

Stamina could use some adjustments, for attack cost that is

[leaden remnant]

i would call that small tweaks

[frail bobcat]

its attacks should take a bit more stam, but thats it

[leaden remnant]

not an actual nerf

[golden coral]

Yeah, fair

[leaden remnant]

it just practically wouldn't make a difference so...

sure a few tweaks here and there aint a bad thing

[frail bobcat]

@west plank dude, you put the same feedback yesterday, no need to double post

[leaden remnant]

but tbf i believe that teno stamina costs don't need to be tweaked since it's kinda difficult to aim the hits

and all your good attacks cost stamina

but i also believe that the teno claw attack doing so much bleed is a joke

it literally does more bleed than a raptor pounce

so either raptor pounce is horrible or teno claw attack is literally the most op thing ever seen

[golden coral]

I think it's meant to, it's a good deterrent vs smaller things

It's more so that pounce could not have high bleed before, because of well, ease of landing it and escaping and all

Hence bleed had to be over time, rather than on impact

While teno deals all it's bleed on impact, but it also have had to work harder to land the hit in the first place

[golden coral]

Imagine if the pounce did teno level bleed, on impact, when you had magnetic face pounce available. Think that'd be any fun for the targets?

[west plank]

I don't remember writing anything about spinning and hitting.

[frail bobcat]

you talked about stun from teno kicks being removed on both posts

[west plank]

I didn't write anything about stun in my last post.

[rigid tulip]

I have always been team raptor over team carno but this is an absurd statement. Gateway stam may have reduced raptors skill ceiling (lame) but it still is a dino that for the most part is meant for punching up

[unborn iris]

I didn't even notice that statement. If you think so you haven't really played with extremely skilled raptors.

[leaden remnant]

never said it has to be that much

[golden coral]

Didn't claim that either, I'm pointing out why teno claws might do more immediate bleed than omni pounce does

[leaden remnant]

im just saying that either raptor pounce is horrible or teno claw attack is literally the most op thing ever seen

in my opinion it's too much bleed

it should definetely do considerable bleed

but not that much in my personal opinion

[leaden remnant]

that's fine, think what you wish to think, freedom of thought anyways

[leaden remnant]

it's actually not an absurd statement

but as i told mr wheel, think what you wish to think, freedom of thought anyways

[unborn iris]

The only way to show would be to let you get on carno and killing you with raptors.. but that includes coordinating with 2-3 friends to educate you. And that's just too much effort for the value.

But from personal experience, 4 raptors that have half a clue how it works, should not be getting ran over easily by a carno.

[leaden remnant]

to be fair raptor needs an inmense amount of skill to unlock its full potential

so 4 raptors that have half a clue how it works would get absolutely murked by a carno

[leaden remnant]

im not that skilled as a carno

most i can do is 3 pretty skilled raptors

[unborn iris]

That get murdered by a solo carno?

Every solo carno you run into, I would have to assume?

[leaden remnant]

wdym

[unborn iris]

Skilled might not be the term to use.

[leaden remnant]

i have no idea what you're talking about...?

why are you all of a sudden slandering people capable of soloing a carno

provided that the carno isn't very skilled

[unborn iris]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-no-nope-gif-5413974953753901704

I'm off

[leaden remnant]

you're telling me that the 3 pretty skilled raptors im mentioning get murdered by every solo carno

[unborn iris]

Maybe my reading comprehension is off right now or something. But this is pointless.

You are saying that ALL raptors get killed by a solo carno if they are 4 or less. So I would have to assume you are speaking from personal experience, if you don't play carno.

[leaden remnant]

wat

[unborn iris]

?

[leaden remnant]

um no i never said that

[unborn iris]

Am I getting trolled?

[leaden remnant]

i think your comprehension is a bit off right now

[unborn iris]

So what does this mean?

[leaden remnant]

waht i said is that 4 raptors that have half a clue how it works would get absolutely murked by a carno cause to properly play raptor you gotta be way more skilled than anyone else

[unborn iris]

Or this

[leaden remnant]

4 raptors that have half a clue how it works are completely useless in a pack and will die in the first hunt you do

you need people who truly know what they're doing and fully comprehend how raptor works

[unborn iris]

You said 4 extremely skilled raptors would be absolutely killed by a carno.

[leaden remnant]

by a skilled carno

your average carno doesnt stand a single chance

2 very skilled raptors are enough to kill your average carno

dont even have to be fully grown

but if the carno is pretty damn skilled you're gonna need raptors who are extremely skilled

[rigid tulip]

I agree, I thought u said skilled raptors lose a 1v4 tho

which is what i thought was absurd as carno raptor 1v1s were rampant before gateway

raptor with high stam can punch up immensely and its a skill cannon

gateway kinda turned it into a pathetic and annoying dino that would just latch onto you and drain ur life like a leech then became useless after

imo

[leaden remnant]

lol

[rigid tulip]

its better now but raptor is also trash as a result

[leaden remnant]

perfectly described

soon enough it shall be even better

[rigid tulip]

I just want to play raptor in the state it was in before gateway again

[keen plover]

Man I worry about stronger Omni 😰

[rigid tulip]

where carnos were scary and ceras were scarier, but you could also solo either one of them if you were a goat

[leaden remnant]

agreed

[keen plover]

Yeah that was fun

[leaden remnant]

imo rappie could use a considerable stam regen buff

[rigid tulip]

i do too, I hope they dont make it a dino again where it latches onto you and drains your resources repeatedly through numbers, just mobbing you

[leaden remnant]

increase the costs idc

but the stam regen is ass

[rigid tulip]

true, i think personally raptor should have much faster bite speed as well

[leaden remnant]

ig they're on it

[keen plover]

Yeah needing a billion stamina to drop one sucks, but at the same time I do want raptors if they’re great, to drop bad Carno/teno/cera players . The issue is how long it takes to get stam back

[leaden remnant]

yis

pounce could use a lil more bleed but that's not something very important imo

stam is pretty damn bad imo for smth like raptor

[rigid tulip]

I had to fight a troodon pack when the server was desyncing, due to the slowness of the bite I could literally never get a hit on any of them unless I got the jump on them or pretended I couldnt see then turned around fast

[keen plover]

Yeah imo raptor needs a quick bite for its damage. I always wanted fast bite raptor

[rigid tulip]

might be a crazy take but to me raptors seem like they should have better stam than almost any other carnivore, they are the largest "athletic" dino

[leaden remnant]

it's not a crazy take it's pure logic

[rigid tulip]

carno is a speed demon, cera is a brawler bully, yet the pack hunting attrition fighter has worse stam?

[leaden remnant]

yis

[rigid tulip]

actually carno might have worse tbh

if u count charge as a necessary combat tool

[leaden remnant]

lemme make a feedback about it actually

[keen plover]

In terms of total run time raptor has more than those 2 iirc

[leaden remnant]

cause i like putting feedback

[keen plover]

But pounce ….

[rigid tulip]

I suppose, but the issue is combat yes

Its like making a hyena or a cheetah have more endurance than a wild dog

[unborn iris]

Raptor will be broken again with rear pounce.

[keen plover]

My issue with Omni was never it bullying bad carnos or ceras. My issue was that a solo good raptor was a threat to a good carno. Maybe not kill it, but it did a lot of damage

[unborn iris]

Like in a good way, to specify.

[rigid tulip]

use trees bro

me and my friend as carnos back when raptor was in its "leech" state after gateway first came out 2v8 a pack of adults by camping trees and rocks in highlands

[keen plover]

Yeah terrain = win vs raptors.

The common bush that has collision is enough as well

[keen plover]

Yeah

Then group pin. It’s getting pounce improvements as well

They’ll finally be able to pounce up inclines iirc

[golden coral]

That, should not be a thing. By any means, if the carno or cera is even half capable, no omni should ever solo them.

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message @west plank That’s not a good idea even remotely

[rigid tulip]

A player who just picked up the isle on a fully grown carno should lose to a omni player on the level of say nappn. Someone with really good experience who genuinely understands the ins and outs of combat.

Skill expression > realism (to a reasonable amount)

[golden coral]

I did say "even half capable", it would imply that we're not talking about someone who's just picked up the game, but someone that does know how their playable work, how the opponent work, and so on. I do agree skill should be a part, but so should stats and all that.

[leaden remnant]

@carmine grail iirc that's in progress

[mint star]

@safe badge the "holograms" are hallucinations, and theyre meant to represent the venom attacking your heart

[safe badge]

then why do they do damage?

[dusky surge]

"theyre meant to represent the venom attacking your heart"

[mint star]

i just said

youre also able to destroy the hallucinations by attacking them, but for some reason they always deal damage on instant contact

[safe badge]

i still dont understand lol

[mint star]

its like the personification of the venom itself, attacking your body

you can at least fight back against this venom by destroying the hallucinations

[safe badge]

ohhh i get it now.

[full ocean]

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[final coral]

i might of missed that

[full ocean]

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[dusky surge]

It didn't need a nerf in that matchup to begin with

Last thing deino needed was a buff

[alpine plover]

I wonder if that was planned already or my suggestion influenced it more

[full ocean]

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[coarse blaze]

I still don't know how I feel about deino being able to grab a FG steg in the water

Does that mean there are just - no weight limits for the water when it comes to lunge?

[slim dragon]

I assume it might be something like, something swimming is considered to be 50% lighter than it actually is

I'm feeling eh about the change as well
I'd be fine with it if deino was designed like a predator, but currently it's a rock simulator with a win button

[unborn iris]

I feel like it is definitely a boost to a playable that doesn't need one.. But it's a good check on stegos. You already really don't want to get caught swimming by a full croc or you will be hurting. Still easily avoidable.

The funny part is when/if it's usable vs other deinos. Just give them another reason to cry about cannibalism.

[dusky surge]

last animal that needed a buff lol

[mint star]

okay so, if deino theoretically grabs anything that is 50% of its total weight when swimming

that means anything 8 tons and below is a potential target

lmao

[dusky surge]

LMAO DEINO 1V1S GOT EVEN BETTER

[unborn iris]

I would be surprised if they overlooked how bad of an idea it would be if it worked on other crocs and aquatics.

[dusky surge]

Suchomimus lol

[shadow vortex]

Perhaps lunging large prey in the water will simply slow down its swimming speed? I can’t even imagine how a deino would drag a grown stegosaurus underwater

[full ocean]

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[slim dragon]

Maybe it will in the future

[runic coral]

To those who said no to my suggestion, I would gladly hear your input :)

[slim dragon]

9 reasons why stress debuffs are bad (Bubulblu's mixpacking List) :

1. Griefers can and will continue griefing even with debuffs, unless they lead to death, which would pose a much bigger problem.
2. Depending on the range and timing of debuffs occuring, players can abuse them by regularly getting away from each other and continue griefing.
3. It ruins prolonged fights. Some fights in the game can last for 30+ minutes, but the game cannot tell the difference between a fight where no one hits each other for some time and mixpacking.
4. Mixpacking isn't necessarily an issue. There is nothing wrong with a group of small dinos hanging around a larger one who they know cannot catch them.
5. Temporary alliances can be fine. Two groups of predators can hunt the same prey and decide to help each other until said prey is dead, or two prey animals could stand side-by-side to defeat a powerful predator, without being necessarily griefers. The point of the game is to maximize your chances of survival.
6. It promotes deathmatch gameplay instead of survival, by forcing players to either run away or kill anything that isn't their own species.
7. A fast dino can purposefully debuff a slower one by following it and causing debuffs. Again, griefers don't care if they're being debuffed.
8. It ruins hiding. In a jungle or near water, two players can be very close to each other without being aware of each other's presence. Debuffs occuring would give them away to each other.
9. Stress implies forcing psychological reactions on a player, which is a bad thing to do in a horror game. A dino has no reason to be stressed or afraid if the player controlling it isn't. The game should try to scare off the player themselves, not their character.

[dusky surge]

thank god you have us covered

[runic coral]

Yeah, makes complete sense - thank you for clearing things up :]

[runic coral]

#balance-feedback message
Just want to add to this - I also think it would be great for pachys to be able to knock coconuts down as well. However, please enlighten me if this is already a thing cause I am not aware of it.

[slim dragon]

It is already a thing

[runic coral]

Okay 👍

[fiery shard]

i think it's weird. why would big deino grab another big deino? grab is for drowning. or am i wrong?

ik grappling does damage but we'll just use up all our stamina

[full ocean]

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[fiery shard]

ahaha. if that's what it's for, that'd be funny

[rigid tulip]

Lol its supposed to be for drowning yeah