balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

no?

i dont think deino is balanced

deino is by far the most overpowered animal in the game

[surreal cosmos]

stego*

[dusky surge]

absolutely zero competition

[wheat forum]

Rather than comming up with an Idea like me you literally say my idea is sh*t and complain

[dusky surge]

stego is nothing compared to deino lol

[surreal cosmos]

okay i want what your smoking

stego literally does the most damage in the game

[dusky surge]

deino can one tap 4 ton creatures
stego cannot

deino has insane bleed resist
stego does not

deino can dive and breathe underwater for insanely long periods
stego cannot

stego has an exceptionally weak head
deino does not

deino has the best stealth in the game
stego does not

deino has the most health in the game
stego does not

[wheat forum]

Your right Stego oneshot

[slim dragon]

Deino also has the highest health pool in the game

[surreal cosmos]

and stego has movement

[dusky surge]

deino has more

[slim dragon]

Deino is a carnivore (meaning better and easier diets, overall shorter growth time)

[surreal cosmos]

doesnt matter

[dusky surge]

it... does matter

[surreal cosmos]

deino trading hitts with a stego

[dusky surge]

stego is nowhere near as strong as deino

[surreal cosmos]

stego wins

[wheat forum]

Stego vs Deino Stego wins, also why not compare the two on equal footing Stego in the water Deino wins Deino on land Stego wins easy

[dusky surge]

one matchup does not determine balance

[surreal cosmos]

I have seen stegos kill groups of deinos

easy

[slim dragon]

1v1 against each other is the only thing where stego wins against deino
I guess that makes it the OP one

[wheat forum]

Also killing Deinos on land is easy

[surreal cosmos]

stego only dies if it wants to die

[wheat forum]

Any smart Stego player can easily survive

[dusky surge]

and i've seen ceras kill stegos. I've never seen them kill a deino

i've seen troodons kill stego. Never seen them kill a deino

i've seen omnis kill stego. Never seen them kill a deino

i've seen tenos kill stego. Never seen them kill a deino

[surreal cosmos]

I have killed deinos as a cera

[dusky surge]

lmao

[surreal cosmos]

and stegos

catch them on land its ggs

[wheat forum]

Yea cause most Deino players watch Cornhub while playing and waiting in the water come on land and fight you will see them die like flies

[surreal cosmos]

they bite back cant reach you

just keep biting their tail then when they panic from lack of water start munching

stego v cera if stego goes to a cliff or a tree the stego wins also

stego one shots a cera to the head

deino doesnt

[slim dragon]

OF COURSE the stego wins
It's like 5x the size of cera

Deino oneshots cera anywhere

[surreal cosmos]

no it doesnt

[slim dragon]

Thanks to lunge

[surreal cosmos]

ohh right

Talking about land fight tho

[wheat forum]

The lunge does not kill its the water that kills you

[surreal cosmos]

very hard to catch a lunge on land tho

can grab let go and alt bite

[slim dragon]

Ok what's a deino doing so far away from water ?
Also even then, since you said stego wins thanks to a cliff... Just drop the cera off a cliff

[surreal cosmos]

but thats hard to pull off being a slow ass deino on land

[dusky surge]

lunge = win

[surreal cosmos]

smelling corpses

[slim dragon]

(And stego can't oneshot cera no matter what if there's a body nearby)

[wheat forum]

Being a Ahole stealing food

[surreal cosmos]

stego can one shot cera

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure how a deino dies to a cera anyway
Or 2, or 3, or 4
Just facetank them

[surreal cosmos]

movement

get behind

deinos turn is slow

[slim dragon]

alt-bite

[surreal cosmos]

stam

isnt infinite

[wheat forum]

You can’t turn fast enough as a Deino Alt bite wastes a lot of stamina

[dusky surge]

deino can :)

[wheat forum]

Show me a oneshot on land without grabbing them into the water

[slim dragon]

You only need 2 or 3 hits to kill a cera
While a cera has to hit you with normal bites like... 30 times or smth ?

[surreal cosmos]

no with a bite

[wheat forum]

Only if you hit them in the head wich is barely possible to do

[surreal cosmos]

yes

[slim dragon]

3 body hits= 1500 damge
Cera is dead

[wheat forum]

You know those numbers are not accurate anymore

[slim dragon]

How so ?

[wheat forum]

Also you end up biting the tail more than the body

[surreal cosmos]

Also redundant to what we were saying

Well this convo is getting more idiotic as it goes along so Im done

[golden coral]

Deino is clearly the OP one, stego is nowhere near in comparison. You don't determine OP based on one single matchup, especially one where the deino has the control of the engagement 90% of the time. You have to look at the playable as a whole, stats, mechanics, matchups vs everything and so on.

[obtuse ocean]

3 hits to kill a cera as stego ? so sad

[wheat forum]

As a Deino read the convo

[dusky surge]

why would i bite if i can lunge lol

[surreal cosmos]

Ok last thing I say, it was said that deino hits the hardest

yet its a two bite to kill a cera and one hit from a stego to kill a cera

[golden coral]

Deino with lunge can kill up to 4T successfully in one go. So yes

Because deino does not use bite to kill, stego uses jabs to kill

[wheat forum]

It’s not one go you just drown them can’t compare

[surreal cosmos]

Thats all Im saying now the convo has turned into a mess from the original topic

[golden coral]

You do realize you have to take the entire playable and kit into account, right?

[golden coral]

They die, with little to no counterplay at that. Yes, you can compare.

[wheat forum]

Why not remove Stego and Deino there balanced

[golden coral]

Sure, fine by me. But thats irrelevant to the discussion

[surreal cosmos]

thats a fair topic to talk about

two semi apexs being added in too early

[dusky surge]

they're doing one of those things, and it's removing the only animal in the game that can fight deino

[wheat forum]

#balance-feedback message that was the beginning of the convo how it’s ludicrous the balance the Deino as all the Deino mains start crying

[surreal cosmos]

that have no counters

[golden coral]

But don't sit there and somehow think that raw damage is the one thing that makes something OP, because there's far more to a playable than that

[dusky surge]

not a deino main, i just hate the idea

[wheat forum]

All I was on about is a possible suggestion to how you could counter/balance the grab mechanic so you don’t have to altf4 the moment your grabbed

[golden coral]

I just want a quick react/movement from eating/drinking that allows you to avoid or otherwise "cancel" the lunge, as well as be useful to react to other threats as well, since we have the camera lock and all

[surreal cosmos]

Deino and stego shouldnt have been added in the first palce their smaller cousins should have been

[dusky surge]

nah

i dont agree with that

[surreal cosmos]

your a troll so no interest in convo with you

you just say no

[dusky surge]

thanks man

[golden coral]

Could have added a downsized deino to be fair

[obtuse ocean]

How is stego OP ? Or you the guy that walks over to it then complain its op

[dusky surge]

love it when i get called a troll for disagreeing

[wheat forum]

And rather than having a Simbiotic converstation where we can discuss pros and cons and maybe other solutions everyone starts crying about it and this is the point we reached here. All I said that this is a POSSIBLE solution that would add more to the gameplay

[surreal cosmos]

with no counter argument

just no or I disagree

well okay add something then

its a discussion

[obtuse ocean]

Why should a carno counter a deino ? You have speed for that

[surreal cosmos]

add something constructive

[surreal cosmos]

I also added based on weight

earlier in the convo

[wheat forum]

It’s fine to disagree but rather than coming up with a decent counter/another possible way to balance things you say remove it or destroy its gameplay

[golden coral]

Sure, if you could actually, you know, quick react to use that speed

[surreal cosmos]

1.8 ton to lets say 4 ton deino there should be a mechanic for a some kind of defence

[wheat forum]

Also you can’t run backwards in the game by the time you turned your dead

[obtuse ocean]

By the water, i was talking on land. It has nothing lol

[surreal cosmos]

but a adult carno against a adult deino no since the weight difference is too much

[dusky surge]

im doing other things atm

[obtuse ocean]

You mean fighting back as in trying to kill deino or get away ?

[surreal cosmos]

get away

obviously not fight back

a mechanic to drain stam faster for the deinos side

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, but we all agree on that. It should be some better way to see them. And so deinos need more "skill" to get a grab.

[surreal cosmos]

so you can perhaps survive the encounter

[obtuse ocean]

But if you get caught, your dead. As it should be. For me its like complaing that rex is OP cus you walked up to it.

[surreal cosmos]

I just want the gameplay loop to be more fun

its a game after all

I even mentioned maybe just a simple jump back mechanic

https://tenor.com/view/deer-croc-crocodile-drinking-gif-14831929

like this

[obtuse ocean]

Deino will have much more problems later, spino bary sucho etc

[wheat forum]

When will that be in 8 years?

[surreal cosmos]

Im not worried about 2 years down the line atm

[obtuse ocean]

prob yea lol

[surreal cosmos]

I hope not xD

I will be a old man

deino will destroy bary and sucho anyways

[obtuse ocean]

Maybe, but not while growing

[surreal cosmos]

okay they will thin the deino pop maybe depending on the map

but there will always be deinos

as adults

that will wreck the bary and sucho pop also

[obtuse ocean]

Also we gonna have deinocherius

Sucho im not sure about, its big

[surreal cosmos]

Well they are adding that stego can be pinned when alot of omni pounce it so hopefully something comes for deino also 😄

[surreal cosmos]

sucho isnt a apex

[obtuse ocean]

deino is not an apex, thats said even from the devs

[surreal cosmos]

they can say what they want its as heavy as a rex

its a apex

[obtuse ocean]

Spino will rip deino lol

[surreal cosmos]

depends on its weight in game

weight is hp

[obtuse ocean]

its not as heavy as a rex, it got measly 500 dmg bite. It cant do crap against bigger dinos like apexes.

Its kit has nothing vs big

[surreal cosmos]

we will see how they do spino

[obtuse ocean]

They said spino will destroy deino

[surreal cosmos]

raw stats mean nothing

[obtuse ocean]

If you think deino is apex, you gonna get a suprise

[surreal cosmos]

cera can beat a carno

we need to see how it fairs

they are also going to make stego and deino stronger right wasnt that said

[obtuse ocean]

thats kissen

[slim dragon]

Stego yes
Nothing was said about making deino stronger

[surreal cosmos]

pretty sure their bite force was nulled for the curret roster

[slim dragon]

The thing is, deino doesn't need any buff
Even if apexes come to the game

[obtuse ocean]

How do you see a rex ? if you think deino is apex. Like what do you expect to happend if a rex bites you as lets say carno ?

It gonna scare you, and you run away ?

[surreal cosmos]

things can be apex of their own territory lol

[dusky surge]

sucho is a shallow wader

it doesnt care about deino

[surreal cosmos]

what shallow waters do you mean?

[dusky surge]

ones around gateway like in the swamps

[surreal cosmos]

swamp isnt shallow

sucho will need to move like the rest of us

[dusky surge]

its a shallow wader

there's an entire biome full of shallow water

[obtuse ocean]

No , but how do you see rex get food? Or you gonna ask for some kind of jump mechanic when the rex catches you offguard. Cus if it dont instakill you as carno, you can just run away.

[surreal cosmos]

I have yet to see it

[surreal cosmos]

I already told you you can see and hear a rex

are you being dumb on purpose now?

[obtuse ocean]

that was my point, i said it. We need to see the deino better. The grab itself dont need some kind of nerf.

[surreal cosmos]

So you want crystal clear water??

[slim dragon]

Ah the common Islecord argument "The world is exclusively black and white and there are no middle-grounds"

When someone asks for a nerf to deino, they're asking to make deino the weakest animal in the game by a huge margin, there can be no other thing

[surreal cosmos]

Thats not what anyone is saying

Well maybe the crystal clear water like this guy mentioned would ruin deino

[obtuse ocean]

Who mention crystal clear water ?

[surreal cosmos]

if you can see a deino under the water that would just not work man

also depending on the depth you can see them already

[surreal cosmos]

how do you plan on seeing deinos in the water explain that then?

[slim dragon]

A wise man once suggested that deino's lunge should be a charged ability, which makes a distinct sound and maybe bubbles or something
The longer you charge it, the longer lunge propels you

So it's a matter of paying attention to cues and reacting in time

[surreal cosmos]

We found someone with a actual suggestion and it makes sense

[slim dragon]

Also uh deino sprinting underwater should probably make some sound or a ripple effect

[surreal cosmos]

my guy is here with all the balance

[slim dragon]

Joke's on you it's from the person you called a troll earlier

[surreal cosmos]

where did he mention it?

[slim dragon]

In another conversation, months ago

[surreal cosmos]

this convo spiralled onto shite so I wasnt paying attention

[surreal cosmos]

well he should have mentioned it again

instead of no or I disagree

[surreal cosmos]

did you mention this before?

[surreal cosmos]

this would be ideal

This would be the counter

[dusky surge]

mention what

[surreal cosmos]

slight bubbles little ripples in the water

what he said

you mentioned these kind of changes before?

[dusky surge]

yea

i wanted a charge bite mechanic for deino

[surreal cosmos]

Should have mentioned stuff like that here also man

[dusky surge]

should've yea

[stable quest]

The only thing I seem to die to are deinos 😭 and u can't avoid them even if u want to. EVERYTHING needs to drink. Honestly why should I spend time growing anything but deino so I won't have to worry about my gameplay being ended within 10 seconds because deinos r lurking in every body of water. Sure I can die to other deinos but it seems half of the gateway servers are just deinos anyways and no body is killing each other because there is no challenge/competition. Maybe this is just me complaining but it really does not take skill to hold m2, and you will die mostly everytime you are grabbed. I'm not saying deino shouldn't not kill u with a grab but players drinking at least deserve some kind of indicator that could save their life seconds before being grabbed. If you're paying attention you obviously deserve to survive, if not that's on you, but right now it just seems like it's on you every time you drink because even if you know a deino is there it's die or die, aka drink (and still die) or just die to dehydration.

[surreal cosmos]

Well main thing was the spiro map was catered to deino

gateway not so much

[halcyon elk]

Btw gateway is much harder for deino.

[indigo rain]

Grabbing and being animation locked in a stam battle is bad for both sides because of ally gangup.

Christ my discord did not go to the bottom. Ignore me

[lone timber]

deino just feels like it doesn’t belong in this stage of the game yet, it’s easy and safe to grow with no competition or threats in the water besides other deino players ESPECIALLY compared to the rest of the roster. there’s a reason why like 30-40% of any server pop is a deino. as a full grown deino you’re not going to see any other players in the water unless they’re within 1-2 meters of you. the only time you will have a chance to cannibalize is when you see a deino go onto land to eat or go to the surface for air. if they get to the water before u kill them then most times you will lose them bc of the vision. the food drain is so good that you don’t even need to open yourself to creating enemies in a lake or body of water with other deinos in a fight over food, so there’s little incentive to cannibalize.

tldr: deinos need some competition or struggle. it’s easy mode to grow and easy mode to live at FG

[cobalt dagger]

I've been reading, and I think this is a good idea. Making it easier to see makes the deino put more effort into staying hidden and making an ambush.

Earlier, I suggested, make it's eyes stick out of the water when it sees out of the water, like a real croc. Then it has to watch people, think, plan, and 'set' an ambush in the spot where it sees people drinking, and rely on that over just 'oh he's drinking better grab him real quick' on the whim.
I am okay with deino's lunge if we can make deino have to plan it a little more.

Another, different thing we can do, is make it so that if a deino is SPRINTING underwater, you can see ripples on the surface because of a large animal moving large mass through the water with decent speed. This means that if they sprint up to you while you're drinking you'll see them, further encouraging them to pick a spot and wait, rather than just do whatever they want and right-click drinkers as it pleases them.

Yes, right now, it is luck. I would love for deino to be more timing/planning and less luck.

[cobalt dagger]

I like this idea too

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah it sounds like a good idea, I think maybe better than eyes sticking out of water depending on how it charges.

[stable quest]

Yes this. Deinos should be masters at ambushing but it shouldn't be as easy as just swimming up and lunging someone just because they know they're guaranteed the kill. Deino has a slow hunger drain so it's not the end of the world if it screws up a couple ambushes, this just creates more opportunities to improve for the next ambush and try a different strategy to make their hunt successful.

[torn egret]

I’ve yet to get grabbed on gateway by a deino. It’s been close a few times lol, but I wonder if gateway is too rough on crocs too. Since there is so much water and no hotspots like in spiro, idk how migration zones affect them.

[cobalt dagger]

@mossy jasper

I agree pachy shouldn't be a pushover, and I would like to see it have stun on fracture, maybe more.

But, large animals like t-rex and stego shouldn't need to fear pachy, right? Maybe those would not get stunned, the way carno can't stun them either?

[halcyon elk]

That was already the case

[cobalt dagger]

I agree, I am only asking them since they mentioned, pachy needs to be feared and avoided, I just want to know if KC means all should fear and avoid, or just similarly sized animals. I gave the feedback a check mark anyway because I'm pretty sure they don't mean for stegos/rexes to fear pachy

[mossy jasper]

Yes

[cobalt dagger]

@twin jasper

If it helps you, you can get all nutrients from any player's body as deino, by harvesting the organs. If the body is small enough to pick up, pick it up and hold left-click while shaking your mouse side to side, and it'll tear out all the organs. If the body is too big to pick up, tapping G will remove a piece of flesh, and if the body has already had some pieces removed it may give you an organ. To ensure you get an organ when you pick a piece of meat, bite the body to open it up.

Lungs, the wide flat organ, give you the dots nutrient, even if you killed, say, a baby deino, you can still harvest the lungs to get dots. Smelling it will show up as S, but eating it will be dots. There are two lungs, and only one of every other organ.

The heart is S, it looks like, well, a heart. The stomach looks very similar, and gives you (I think) whatever nutrient the dino last ate, or, if it's not that, then it gives you the nutrient the dino had the most of.

You can get // by finding the intestines, which I assume you also know what these look like but, if not, they look like spahgetti.

You can get all these organs from any dead player's body, if someone else hasn't already taken and eaten the organs.

[twin jasper]

Explore the maps. Every map has a area a deino cant reach.

[twin jasper]

Yo! Thank you sir, this is lovely information.

[twin jasper]

The main issue with deino on gateway is that you have zero visibility in the water or in the night as a adult, I’m almost 100% sure its a bug but for now while it is like that deino ambush hunting will be way less accurate LOL

[dusky surge]

Apparently an adult carno got a speed buff on Gateway, but its extremely small

From 55.5km/hr to 55.6km/hr

[dusky surge]

Oh yea

Playing carnotaurus has really enlightened me to how powerful it is

1v1 with cera and didn't even get put to yellow health lol

a cooldown matters barely not at all

[lone timber]

yeah carno is pretty alright

[dusky surge]

its actually unfair in how broken it is in combat

[lone timber]

woa woa woa slow ur roll it’s not broken

[dusky surge]

no it absolutely is

it's absurd lol

it was literally so mindless for me to just win a fight against a cerato without even taking any form of significant damage

[lone timber]

it’s definitely good but hella players don’t have a clue of what they’re doing against the new carno with the one step acceleration

[dusky surge]

like playing it for my self really enlightened me

no, this was a good cerato, he knew how to sidestep

but skill couldn't possibly save him

he dodged several charges, but it'd be a fool's errand to assume he could actually counterplay me

the cerato was play as well as a cerato could, but in all reality, it'd be better off running to the nearby river and swimming away

[lone timber]

i’ve counterplayed carno w cera on gateway, but then i died to two more before i got stam and hp back

[dusky surge]

this current iteraction of carno needs major changes, and fast

[lone timber]

cera can win though and if it ever makes you throw up at the beginning of an interaction it’s a free win for the cera

it’s not easy though but can be done

[dusky surge]

and if you keep your stomach full, cera loses by default

i genuinely don't see how this is balanced

after playing the animal, it was so absolutely mindless

winning a fight against a competent cerato was literally so easy i didnt even get to the yellow health stage

[lone timber]

keeping ur stomach full does make it much harder i’ll concede. what servers do u play on? na?

[dusky surge]

i played on NA

at the end of the fight i just facetanked the cera because i charged it like, 4 times because it was easy, and then decided to just give up trying to play smart because i had already won

such a braindead animal in its current stage

charge can have a cooldown for as long as they want, it doesn't matter

carno just stays outside your range of attack, charges in and remains outside your range

you can't do anything to stop it because the knockdowns and damage are so high

the cerato tried everything, from ambush to baiting to dodging. It didn't work, I didn't take any meaningful damage at all. I just won because I knew how to manage stam and spam charge more effectively, which is a hysterical showcase of how stupid this attack is

[lone timber]

how i kill carnos as cera is create distance during cooldown to make them spend more stam. run at an angle towards them when they sprint so they can’t charge or bite my body and i always have my bite charging so if they drift , i turn and bite them

carno does get a free charge if u mess up and drift though

[dusky surge]

thats what the cera tried, it didn't work

because i knew how to do spacing and that's all you need to know

[lone timber]

he probably didn’t do it right

[dusky surge]

he literally couldn't

it didn't matter

carno doesn't care

i literally followed him into a forest and still kicked his ass because carno no longer has to care

[lone timber]

that cera was being silly

[dusky surge]

i played against him. He played to the best of his ability.

[lone timber]

it isn’t easy and moderate difficulty is still putting it lightly, but cera can beat a carno

[dusky surge]

I was impressed with how skilled he was, but it really didn't matter

carno is so goddamn braindead thanks to charge's damage and knockdown, alongside other stats like accel and speed

[lone timber]

if that’s your opinion that carno stampedes cera and even the most skilled cera players have no counter-play then it is what it is

i am interested in the take regardless

[dusky surge]

i already believed it before the gateway changes

but now with the increased accel, it's just a no-brainer

[lone timber]

i’ll probably get on cera and start gathering a bunch of 1v1s cera v carni clips for review

[dusky surge]

meanwhile tenonto continues to be shafted every update lol

while carno is this good

[lone timber]

tenonto is pretty good though, had a multi kill on teno the other day. killed 3 FG ceras with one stam bar (clip included with this claim)

[dusky surge]

idk man, it's like a cera killing a carno. If they were any good, they'd show you how in reality, it's entirely against you

[lone timber]

so what specifically are u suggesting be taken away from carno

[distant torrent]

tbh, I think ram should be deleted

just entirely deleted since they aren’t going to change anything about it and only touch on its other stats

give it something else

[lone timber]

okay but be real they can’t take away its only ability, it couldn’t hunt anything

[distant torrent]

it can with its accel

[dusky surge]

reduce ram damage, reduce ram knockdown range, reduce the amount of stam ram consumes because it's absurd, increase the bite damage, remove the ridiculous cooldown

[lone timber]

interesting

[lone timber]

without charge carno definitely could not hunt teno, cera, utah, pachy

pretty much everything it could reliably hunt now

[dusky surge]

it could hunt omni and pachy fine

[lone timber]

it’s fast still yeah, but without the threat of a charge people could stay infront of your nose and turn when it gets close

[dusky surge]

(it shouldn't hunt cera and teno will regardless)

[lone timber]

how is a carno supposed to catch a utah who has incredible run turn radius without a charge

[distant torrent]

so if the only thing keeping it viable is its ram then there’s a problem with the playable. but the thing is

they aren’t going to change ram

[dusky surge]

why would a charge change that lol

[lone timber]

because as it is now, when you close the distance you can play 50:50 and predict which way they turn and charge. without it , it’s wraps

[lone timber]

special attacks are essential for like half the roster

[dusky surge]

it used to not be essential for carno

until they nerfed all of its stats and buffed its charge to kingdom come

so now it's entirely reliant on the charge

[distant torrent]

^ yep

remove ram
buff stam
buff bite damage
keep the accel the same

boom, no more overly dominating the server with 2 or more carnos

[lone timber]

holyyyy, these are some huge overhauls. very interesting opinion

[distant torrent]

I’d even support a notable hunger drain buff with the removal of ram. I just don’t want one while its ram is still so dominating because that’s one of the few things keeping carno in check

[shadow vortex]

Kinda boring without any special attack or ability, I’d rather just vote for its rework

[distant torrent]

if they rework it, I’ll be happy. I have a feeling they won’t rework it so I personally want it removed and replaced with something else that’s nowhere near as dominating as ram

and if they don’t do either then it’ll just forever stay dominating i guess lol

[dawn falcon]

Remove charge and give it a shoving/knockdown ram that replaces alt-bite.

“Special ability” could honestly just be something that benefits it mobility wise, not charge. Maybe the ability to extend and “curve” your skid.

Aka drifting

[slate knoll]

Idk I find the charge manageable to dodge, especially in wooded areas. I could see it being oppressive in a grasslands situation, but also removing a special ability from a Dino removes a lot of its playability. They already nerfed carnos stam by quite a bit, so if you’re able to dodge a couple of it’s charges it’s pretty much done

[distant torrent]

while that’s the case for one carno, two or more and you’re out of luck because of the problem of ram scaling way too well with other group members

it’s part of the reason why a few carnos can absolutely dominate everything that’s not a deino or stego

[slate knoll]

It can definitely be tough to balance between solo and group play on a Dino, especially on official servers where there’s no real rules to packing limits. Idk if removing ram is the right way to go still though, because then solo carnos are pretty much useless at hunting anything

It’s kinda like ceras with sepsis, one is manageable but when you have 3 or more of them biting you you gonna start puking and getting stunlocked really quickly

[distant torrent]

I would argue it’s not useless at hunting solo because you can solo tenos and ceras as a carno. is it painful because of the stam? yea, but it’s not useless

[slate knoll]

Technically doable doesn’t usually make a playable very fun lol and really the idea is for the Dino’s to feel fun for the person to play, removing their main ability is definitely a huge hit to that

It’s kinda like deinos lunge: it’s very oppressive right now and needs some tuning to make it more balance for Dino’s on the receiving end, but if you removed it deino would be a lot less fun to play

[distant torrent]

tbh I don’t find the point, click, and win feel of ram very fun

deino lunge is different because there’s not much else you can replace it with that’ll work out well

with gateway there are ways to entirely avoid deinos which is good. you can’t avoid carnos as easily though. it’s the fastest playable in the game. gateway isn’t like spiro where you can just hop on one of the many copy and pasted rocks and be fine and untouchable

like carno doesn’t need its ram. it has great speed, great accel, and it could benefit from stam buffs and a little bite force buff with a ram removal. it could then quite literally choose any fight it wants and doesn’t want, which is pretty fun itself because you’re not forced into a fight where you’re almost guaranteed to die and lose hours of your time. the trade off? you don’t completely annihilate every other smaller playable with no questions asked if you have a buddy or two

all ram does is just kill things far faster

[slate knoll]

Eh personally disagree with the notion of removing an ability based solely on group play, tends to alienate the large number of people who don’t play in groups. I mean honestly I haven’t noticed a huge problem with carno charge being super hard to dodge? Is it different on gateway than spiro?

[distant torrent]

yes actually. have you seen the new accel on gateway? (not trying to frame that in a rude way lol just curious and asking)

spiro gateway takes an absurd amount of time for carno to get into a full sprint and it takes like a second or less than that for it to get into a full sprint on gateway. that means a ram can be initiated almost instantly

[shadow vortex]

Bruh nope, they didn't return pachys stun on fractures... Aw

[slate knoll]

I actually haven’t run into any carnos on gateway yet so I’m just going off spiro

[distant torrent]

yea gateway’s carno is far better

I strongly believe you don’t see many carnos on gateway because of their hunger drain being very painful lol

on spiro they had the constantly populated center

[shadow vortex]

Btw @distant torrent what do you think of 6.5 carno in general? Was it balanced (even if not compare to the Gateway one) in your opinion?

[distant torrent]

I personally don’t think it was very balanced. solo play was/is horrible but it still scaled way too good with numbers purely because of ram. it’s just gateway carno but with far worse accel. it’s supposedly supposed to be a small game hunter but it was far better at hunting larger, less mobile game than the smaller, more agile game

but at least with gateway’s accel it can hunt small game better

the only problem is they kept ram basically the same, so it still dominates less mobile medium game but even better this time

I genuinely can’t argue with the claim that solo carno on 6.5 is bad lol it really is. I always avoided solo play on it as much as possible and only logged on when other people would play it where we would run almost uncontested

[lone timber]

It isn’t super hard to dodge. Carno still has to deal with the low turning radius even with the new quick acceleration, I’ve played as teno and cera and haven’t eaten a charge to the ground during my whole time on stress tess and i’ve logged tons of hours

Some players aren’t familiar with the new acceleration or how sharp they should turn to make carno miss yet because it’s been changed, in my experience carno feels fine to play against and use. just my two cents

[slate knoll]

I agree, and it’s worth noting that carnos charge is almost completely useless in any type of jungle environment, which is a lot of gateway

[rigid tulip]

all im saying is teno has to put in way more effort than similar sized dinos for the same reward

[lone timber]

i’d argue teno has to put in way less effort than a cera has to , in order kill a teno.

cera should never be able to bite a tenos head in a 1v1 bc the z turn for teno is nasty and it could walk in a circle easily to protect its head

[golden coral]

Considering you need way better stam management, knowing which attacks to use when and how, and so on, I'd argue that teno players always have to put in far more effort in being good with their playable than any other playable, and I'm not sure the matchup changes any of that.

[slate knoll]

Teno tail attack super easy to bait

[lone timber]

how easy it is to bait objectively depends on the player and not teno from a balance pov

[lone timber]

the matchup certainly changes the amount of effort because some are easier than others. teno should be focusing on using certain attacks based on each matchup, you wouldn’t alt attack a carno or a cera, but you would use that more often against an omni. as for stam management, that goes for any dino with the stam changes.

[golden coral]

Of which cera has much less concerns, since none of it's attacks take stam, while all but tenos bite does. And yes, but no. It does not change the amount of effort the playable itself requires to be good at, which was my point. Maybe cera struggles more in the matchup (at least if it doesnt have bile, if it does, my experience is that as long as you get the first vomit, most targets are now in severe trouble due to any charge bile bite causing new vomit, and if you're on the defensive with a decent body buff, then you're even harder to kill). Main point was, being good at teno = very difficult. Being good at any other playable = very simple. Inherently, teno players need to be comparably much better than whatever they're fighting to be equal. A bad teno is close to outright fodder. A good teno on the other hand, is quite terrifying to deal with. So while the specific matchup may be easier for a good teno, a cera player will have an easier time being good enough to win the matchup, hence less effort put into it's playable overall.

[rigid tulip]

No, its an attack where it takes a shi ton of stam and you have to aim it in advance in order to hit, the time between the input and ur actual damage is slower than anything else in the game. Its like your using a bow whilst others are using a high velocity gun

I guarantee you the amount of charge bites/carno charges hit per capita is significantly higher than tail slams hit

Teno is like stego except without good stats. The only thing that keeps stego alive is its stats, teno doesnt even have that. It gets shoved around by carnos

A good teno has the same effect as someone who literally just picked up carno

[lone timber]

I get your point but I’m not trying to argue against that, what I will say is that people come to balance feedback to quite frankly complain that teno takes more skill than the easier dinos to learn in the game. So unless specific buffs are being suggested like “4% stam buff to teno’s XYZ attack or stam pool” then it doesn’t seem to be very productive to engage in that behavior. If teno is too hard then the right thing to do is to practice and really get a grasp on the dino before asking for crazy buffs. Because like you said a good teno player can be terrifying, but buffing teno so that lower skill players can see more success will just mean that the good players that already understand the kit will start to win too much and kill others’ fun.

That’s why I stick by saying teno is in a good spot because from a balance viewpoint it has the tools to be a great formidable herbi. But it has a high skill ceiling, and unless players will learn it then only monstrous buffs will make a low skill player survive as teno

[golden coral]

Oh, that much I agree with. Though I do think teno has been a touch nerfed for no good reason, but it's more a matter of maybe just finetuning some changes than buffing the playable outright. That and perhaps adjust for it's niche a bit, I personally would like to see more of a "swamp teno", a little bit more semi aquatically oriented than it currently is. Aside from that, I would rather all other playables be brought up to tenos standard when it comes to how demanding it is to play, and the options it has (multiple attacks, all of which works for various situations), as opposed to most others "just use special attack and little else".

Teno always were the most fun to use for combat, and one of the best one for same species fights for that matter, which is how most other playables should feel too.

[lone timber]

agree!!

100% on the money imo

[rigid tulip]

This is anecdotal, but my friend has been a teno main for most of this game, and I play omni/carno usually. We went into norden, and i I learned how to beat him as a carno on my second attempt. Everything is so easy to juke, all you have to even do is just land a charge. Its pathetic design, imo. Ik im being negative but im fed up with teno getting kicked under the bus every update when its hy far the most engaging combat dino

[dusky surge]

yea

and as someone who just got done playing Gateway carno, good lord

it is absolutely not okay how powerful this animal now is

[rigid tulip]

Cera and carno just completely beat the shi out of the rest of the roster rn

And they are usually in equal or even bigger groups than omnis, tenos, pachys etc cause nobody wants to play a higher risk lower reward dino

[dusky surge]

honestly, cera seems fine when compared to carno. This somewhat is due to the fact I shredded a cera with barely any issue as a carno, and that cerato was def skilled

[rigid tulip]

Omni is pretty easy also, against like a stego or teno or lone carno, but as soon as theres a group it just gets outscaled and they scatter due to stam system

[dusky surge]

i was a 100 ping, inexperienced carno who just understands the game fundamentals and i made it out of the cera v carno fight without even being sent to yellow HP

[keen plover]

Cera is easy to fix:

• Remove Teno AI
• Fix migrations
• Lower the cost of food organs give for all carnivores.

[rigid tulip]

Oh yeah carno destroys cera lol. Cera just bullies everything that is small with no risk is all im saying

The fact it completely avoids all effects of the stam system on combat is just disgusting, really the only reason why its good

[dusky surge]

im genuinely fine with cera as-is. Honestly, a buff to tenonto and troodon might legitimately threaten it

troodon is surprisingly good at cera kills in my experience

[rigid tulip]

It just makes omni/troo completely useless if it exists in a group. I get that that will happen in the final game due to realism and niches and all that but rn it just makes omni a herbivore/baby deleter that scatters as soon as carnivores show up, which we dont need.

[keen plover]

Cera is pretty decent rn. Can't run things down anymore unless they waste a lot of stam

Which at that point, self inflicted

[rigid tulip]

True

[dusky surge]

i'm honestly kind of happy where cera is at atm

its swim speed finds more versatility on a map like gateway, for instance

[keen plover]

I ran from a pack of 4 ceras + a raptor. It was like a 20 min chase as a teno

[dusky surge]

lmao

[keen plover]

Well not really a chase. I outran them but kept toying with them since the ceras couldn't keep up

[dusky surge]

tenontos trot speed is so nice with new stam changes, if only it didn't spend all of the stam trying to fight lol

[keen plover]

So I'm happy to know Teno is actually able to just outrun ceras if it wants

[keen plover]

kick was lowered to 2% cost

[rigid tulip]

My problem isnt that, its just that cera can walk around and just nullify everyone elses fun and fights without risk. I cant tell you how many times we have had a great long fight as raptors/troos and then we just have to watch powerless as 2 ceras finish off all of our work without risk

[dusky surge]

honestly, tenonto just being made REALLY stam-effective would probably make me fine with its lower damage

[keen plover]

but slam is still a ridiculous 8%

[dusky surge]

ik, but the tailslam is still egrigious

[keen plover]

Yeah true. But tbf? That's how it usually is when a larger carnivore comes by

[rigid tulip]

Again, i think this is fine in a bigger roster, but the actual pack hunters rn scale horribly when there are actual packs of other carnivores

[dusky surge]

because in all honesty, teno is arguably better now than it was on Spiro by basis of having a good trot speed and having some decent stam efficiency

[keen plover]

2 carnos would have down the same thing

2 allos, 1 rex

[rigid tulip]

Nah 2 carnos is killable for like 4 omnis

Cera just tanks everything and doesnt suffer from any mistakes

[keen plover]

rn?

[rigid tulip]

I get that its a niche, but its not fun

[rigid tulip]

No, i was thinking 6.5 sorry

[keen plover]

That's true

[keen plover]

Yeah it's fantastic & it's going to be buffed :)

[dusky surge]

yaaaay

i cant wait to play a herbivore and enjoy it

[keen plover]

I hope they change tail slam cost & make it directional. Teno in terms of combat is pretty close to being perfect :O

[rigid tulip]

I think circumstances like this make sense, but they arent fun to go against consistently, its realism but its not fun. I dont like being powerless due to what i select on the spawn screen, hot take. Especially when my dino is supposed to be effective in groups, yet other dinos in groups just do better, and they never stick to group limit

[dusky surge]

didn't they say something about shrinking teno and making it more aquatic?

[keen plover]

Not sure.

[dusky surge]

heard dondi said something

[keen plover]

Food being easy for them is the issue

Nothing stops them from megapacking. So why not?

I want a build where organs give half the food value or even a quarter lol. Also the removal of teno ai + fixed migrations.

[rigid tulip]

True, as a cera i like to play solo and cannibalize. This kind of cera gameplay, imo is fun to go against, packs that show up and just work better in a pack than your pack hunter is so annoying tho

Carno has the same issue, where it scales ridiculously in groups. But with carno you can at least make it cautious, since it has to use stamina, and it can bleed out.

Im not saying buff omni/troo (we’ll probably buff troo), nor am i saying nerf cera, im saying that we need to change the environment of these matchups to be less oppressive for carno and more risky for the cera

[fallow blaze]

He did, or it was Punch here in Dc 🤔
He said something like: They would like the idea of ​​making it a semi-aquatic that visits islands.

but they weren't 100% sure. they look at it.

[stable quest]

The tail slam is directional. If u look to ur backside more to the right you're tail curves that direction, more to the left it curves to the left, and it slams straight if u look directly behind urself. Half the time I don't even need to predict where someone is going to use it because they try to just bite your ass. And if u notice ur getting baited that doesn't mean continue to use tail slam thinking you'll eventually hit them, u have to change it up to conserve ur stam. I would argue making it more directional wouldn't change anything. If you hit a tailslam you need to follow up with a kick, something that I notice many teno players dont do. Making it more flexible with its direction won't make a difference if you don't understand how to play teno. Not that it's a bad suggestion it just doesn't seem like that would change anything. I mean it'd make it easier for me because I'm familiar with how to play teno but new players will still struggle the same.

[sonic flame]

I think Bird is talking about the old idea for Tail slam that was basically a backwards alt attack

[cobalt dagger]

We have some videos of very skilled players who have masted teno though...

I wanna add, teno is slow.

I'll explain why it's such a big deal, because this same thing I am about to explain also applies with raptor and carno (raptor slower than carno), cera and carno (cera slower than carno,) and cera and raptor (cera slower than raptor) and probably a lot of other creatures.

Pretend for a moment, I have two identical animals. Identical diet, identical in every way, except one is slower and one is faster. Creature A is faster and creature B is slower. They aren't on the roster of the isle, they merely exist to show how interactions between slower and faster animals go. In our case, Creature A and Creature B have identical fighting power too, their only difference is their speed.

In a fight, if say, Creature A is more skilled, and B tries to run away because it's loosing, A will chase it and kill it and secure the kill.
If creature B is more skilled, and A tries to run away, it will be faster and run away, and B will not secure the kill.

In a game of numbers, if creature B severely out numbers creature A, say 4 to 1, then creature A will run away from that pack and ignore it.
If Creature A severely outnumbers creature B, B will not be able to run away, and will likely die - regardless of it's skill - to being outnumbered.

When you have animals that are slower (creature B) they need to be able to defend themselves agaist groups of faster things because people consistently make groups in the isle, and often even over-pack.

Right now, if two carnos charged you from different directions as teno it would be very hard, but also - Once as Teno, in Spiro, I had to fight 3 carnos. They didn't even do it careful, they face-tanked my tail and I landed kicks, not tail slams.
They took turns. When one was injured another moved in. I landed kick after kick, never ran out of stam, every kick connected but still died. I am sure those carnos were weak, but none died.

This is probably why carno had bad bleed by the way, so that raptors have some way of defending themselves against an animal they can't run away from.

Meanwhile, Cera is slower than raptors, so his bleed is very slow/he doesn't bleed much at all.

The balance of slowness was somewhat taken into consideration with raptor and those other creatures.

Some creatures, like deino, can swim away, or fly away, and have other methods of disengaging from a fight they cannot take.

But any time you have an animal that is slower than another animal, you have to prepare that animal to deal with being out-numbered.

If you make teno fair in a 1 v 1, that won't cut it unless you give teno equal speed to outrun the fights where it's outnumbered.

Assuming we're not gonna make it speedy, then we gotta give it a better method of defense.

Of course, teno isn't the only one with this issue, I'd argue cera/carno also have the 'creature a and b' problem, but cera is a bit better at dodging carnos - or at least, I've always had an easier time of it. Granted, now carnos can charge from near point-blank, so now it's a different story.
In spiro at least I've had an easier time of killing carnos with my cera than with my teno. I think because of vomit. I always chased them after they threw up.

I wouldn't chase them prior, I'd stand still and conserve stamina and then try to do quick dodges on the charges, which I think because of teno's dumb tail I can do better with cera than teno. Then try to land a quick bite and run after the charge, otherwise continue holding my ground until they run away, run out of stam, or throw up. And if they do one of the last two then you gotta chase the carno or he'll regen in a bush and attack you later when you're eating or something.

However it's still the case that I don't think I could handle 3 carnos as a cera, nor would I be able to run away from them - And there have been times that, a carno, after seeing me dodge, simply ran away. That's definitely a creature A and B issue. Carno was creature A, saw me dodge and felt like I knew what I was doing, so he ran away.
But if three carnos show up, it will be very hard for a cera to run away, and they will probably secure the kill.

UNLESS, cera has a body.

But even then, three to one sounds iffy.

[cobalt dagger]

And yeah, I've noticed this. I not only loved teno when I started it and play it like 70%-50% of the time, but I practice it in 1 v 1 servers a lot. My partner hardly ever plays the game, picks up cera, kills me. Same for carno.
Ironically I still have killed some carnos, but, well- The one carno I killed in Gateway was SO bad I thought he was AI. 8( He was just letting me land hits on him for free, seemingly randomly afk, then walks away a little...
And yet he still charged me twice, point-blank too. One teno-length away from me he goes from a trot to a charge.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah, I really like it too. Vomit is awful for removing stam, but if the tenos can stay away from the cera by running, it is not a problem.

[cobalt dagger]

Wait, teno is getting buffed? This is new news for me.

[keen plover]

The trots for everything

[cobalt dagger]

Ah, the trots

[keen plover]

Also stam costs are still being looked at

[lone timber]

I understand the scenario with creature A and creature B and the logic of what you’re saying. It’s true , if the slower animal can’t get away they need to generally be stronger than those who are chasing it. Teno generally can fight with a carno 1v1 but if it stumbles upon a group it could and should die. After all , teno should be losing 1v3 that’s only fair. It would suck to be a teno caught on a plain with a pack of two or more carnos but what can you even do to change that

[cobalt dagger]

That is interesting, although I will not be using tail slam for much except a quick stun, kick is better in almost every way - Only range is better on the slam, I think.

I feel like it's a bit silly, the slam LOOKS more intense and damaging than the kick does, animation wise. The slam feels more powerful but in reality it's the kick./

[keen plover]

Yeah kick costs a decent amount less as well. 2% kick rn vs 8% slam

[cobalt dagger]

I disagree that it should die, but, we may agree to disagree.

The developers seemed to undertand this with raptor and carno, and raptor and cera, and adjusted carno's and cera's bleed according.

Do you also think that a cera should simply die to being ountnumbered by carnos? Or Raptors?

Lately, I've been playing less of teno, and more of other creatures, because I keep running into groups. It's very rare I get a 1 v 1 fight and rare that I find other tenos to stand with me. Playing the game just to get out-numbered again and again isn't fun, when playing Cera I can actually find people to make a pack with.

If it continues this way, I probably won't play much teno. Why play as creature B when I could play creature A - and actually secure kills? And actually run away when I am outnumbered?
it's a matter of what's fun, too.

Granted, I still play teno in 1 v 1 servers, I still have fun with that.

But in the actual game, dying to being out numbered 1-4 or 1-5, and they don't even have skill (Those carnos face-tanking my tail...) and you can't run away, is always going to be annoying.

It makes teno not fun.

[distant torrent]

ah yes. the inevitable fall of the teno and herbivore population due to overtuned carnivores and the fact that herbivores are lacking buffs to be more viable. who would’ve known… even though people have been warning about it yet nothing changed lol…

[cobalt dagger]

OH scratch that as teno in spiro I've found solo carnos the problem is that they RUN AWAY FROM ME.

[dusky surge]

people assume that everything needs to be balanced around a raw 1v1, which is wrong

[cobalt dagger]

Which is smart of them but it makes my life boring for all my 1v1 chances to run away and not even try, and then all my real fights are 1v4s where I die to players who tank my tail.

[lone timber]

Yeah, it sounds crappy and may not be fun but I do believe cera should be free food to raptor or carno packs when it’s caught in an area where it can’t get away. Mind you I advocate for this and completely get what you’re saying because I’ve been on the receiving end of the encounters you described. It sucks to say but pack hunters should be winning these 1v3’s easily against out of position solos

[dusky surge]

i dont agree with raptor packs because that bleed res is legit manic

cerato is more prepared for groups than teno is, ironically

[cobalt dagger]

Positioning makes a little bit more sense. If it were positioning based, then maybe I'd be more okay. What positioning should a cera take when faced with a raptor? Carno is obviously 'don't be in a field,' deino is 'don't be near the water,' but I don't know what it for raptors, except 'be near a cliff/a tree/rub them off on a rock' which feels kinda silly to me balance-wise for both sides.
I want to wwin because of SKILL, not because I stood my cera in a bush next to a tree...

As for it not being fun, 'fun' is a big part of video games and a big part of what creature people pick to play as.

Making sure every animal is fun is important to the animal's 'viability.'

[lone timber]

Lol true, it feels silly balance wise for both sides on the raptor part. Agree with you there

[cobalt dagger]

You don't want to spend money, animation, art, vocalizarion sound track, ect, on an animal no one thinks is fun and never plays.

Hey by the way, I wanna say, thank you for talking to me like, really respectful in this discussion, and not using straw-man arguments or some random stuff like that

I sometimes avoid talking here because of seeing and experiencing some really disrespectful people who are angry that someone disagrees, and I appreciate that you're not like that

[lone timber]

You make some good points so of course. You articulated your ideas very well and I commend on you on that

[cobalt dagger]

It's also kinda funny considering your username

[lone timber]

true

[cobalt dagger]

I would like to talk about fields real quick.

Humans, are generally a species that hunt animals to survive. We are cooperative, or group-hunting species, and we are sight-based hunters. In the area where we first evolved, around North Africa if I am correct ( I could be wrong), it was largely open fields and so sight-based hunting was effective for us. We are plains hunters, maybe being tall even helps us see over a hill a little better for all I know (but I am sure we have other reasons for standing up.)

I say this because, in the game, night time and forests BOTH restrict seeing things from far away. I have heard, the developers want the night to be dark to allow for night ambushes and to make it spooky. Except, as a baby or prey creature in the isle such as a baby stego or such, I feel SAFER at night simply because I know whatever wants to eat me, has to get really close to see me or reliably here my foot steps. And because humans are sight-based hunters, I know this is the primary way they will notice me.

In real life, night time is scary because other animals can smell and hear and see better at night, giving them advantage over us. That is why night time is scary.
But in this game, all the dinos are human players. I guess maybe ai boar are the exception, if you are small enough for them to be dangerous, but I've gotten prettyy good at hearing them.

Same for forests, anything that restricts or limits long-distance sight is going to scare off any players looking to find people and make a kill. As any kind of baby or small critter, Not only have I been way too hidden in forests but sometimes I just never even see anyone, no one is there, no one even tries to look for anyone.

And so, being the plains creatures we are, the human players always gravitate to fields. I think that's why Northwest and Center, the two hot spots, are also fields.

And THIS is why animals that aren't listed as 'field creatures,' are going to be there anyway, because it's painful to not be able to see. Troodon, a 'night hunter,' will probably still hunt during the time it can detect prey, which, isn't the isle's night time usually.

If they want to promote hunting and promote player interaction, they need to increase visibility, or make another way for creatures to detect each other.

Especially if they want forests and jungles to be inhabited.

(By much other than herras I suppose, I imagine those won't be in fields)

[lone timber]

Agree with this too, players typically flock to open areas with long sightlines so they never get ambushed or live in jungle areas. Herd migration has helped bring some population to the jungle when it moves but as of right now, it’s mostly always at highlands.

[cobalt dagger]

Heh, actually when I don't want to be ambushed,. I stay in the forest and, if I am a baby stego who needs pumpkins from one of the hotspots, I just wait for night before I go there. Works like a charm.

Big sightlines favor the hunter. I don't need big sightlines if I know they can't see me either.

But, here's the thing - Living like that, in the forest, in the dark, always hiding.. IT'S BORING.

It's not fun. Hunting, or being hunted, is where the game gets it's action. Being hunted where you can't do anying (1 teno v 3 carnos) is boring and not fun. Being hunted where you CAN do something (Galli vs 3 carnos, or raptor with it's bleed and dodging ability) is way more fun.

If you are unable to do anything if seen and so your 'survival strategy' is simply to hide, this is extremely boring for both sides.

The hunter never sees a soul to hunt, and the hunted never sees a hunt and just eats marigolds in a corner or whatever.

If you make prey helpless, it will hide.

And hiding is boring, possible thanks to the forest and dark nights, but boring.

I see this as a problem because like I said earlier, 'fun' is an important part of video games... It's like, the goal of video games?

So ideally, you would try to avoid them being boring and, in the isle, interaction with other players is where the fun comes from.

Without interaction with other players... Well, hiding in a corner is as fun as playing on an empty server only you're not allowed to explore or you'll get seen.

It's MORE boring than an empty server.

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah, I like the idea of the migrations in that respect. I've found them to be very painful as anything that is not stego, but I believe that is an issue with the balancing between combat of herbi and carni (and everyone loves to play carni so herbi WILL be out-numbered), I think the idea of promoting player interaction is great.

Only there's so many darn bushes my whole teno can hide in one of them, I guess in theory they want a whole carno to be able to hide too. Honestly though does the carno need to? Isn't supposed to just, run at it's prey? I think hiding helps prey more than hunter so I suppose I can't complain too much about the plentiful bushes.

Except that, I will complain about the bushes because, I am complaining against hiding as being necessary/as prominent as it is.

[odd pebble]

This hits too close to home. Back when i first picked up teno in update 4 and spent a decent amount of time learning it, i could confidently take 2 carnos on. It was really satisfying to see you being rewarded for your skill level. But now, the moment i see 2 carnos or 2 ceras, in my head im like "welp i guess i'll die then"

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah...
It's painful when you spend hours to get good at something, only for it to mean nothing.

I've been thinking I better cut my losses sooner rather than later, if Teno is gonna be the creature B.

[small herald]

@cobalt dagger I’m just going to play Diablo when it comes out. Teno is reduced to being ai meals for carnos who are to bad to survive by killing players

[rigid tulip]

@balmy briar has a good suggestion imo. Omni has ridiculous punishing for things that are typically out of your control. But imo if we are to add this, missed pounce recovery should come back. Omni should be risky when it misses. Not when someone walks into a bush while ur on them, nor while u pounce something while another omni is already on it. We should encourage pack coordination, no? Currently, accidentally pinning someone is just luck based past a certain point. It should exist, but it should be properly cancellable. The only way to totally avoid it is to vc, which is unrealistic for a full omni pack, 8 people in vc is A LOT. Basically reduce the punishment for accidental pins because they discourage pack hunting as a pack hunter. And also speed up the stupid fall off animation, it’s ridiculously slow and goofy to look at. Especially when it happens to you from a bush, not even anything solid. In order to counteract these quality of life changes that lower risk, risk that results from an omni’s direct control should be increased. Bring back missed pounce recovery, and possibly even increase it. We need to punish things more harshly the more controllable they are by the user.

[cobalt dagger]

Y'know, this makes a lot of sense, I agree.

Punishing for stuff you control rather than 'ha, I walked up to a tree, now no omni can ever kill me' sounds way better.

[rigid tulip]

I think taking advantage of geography has its place, it feels cheap for the hunter but its necessary. The punishment for said issues should be lowered tho. But decided reintroduce the failed pounce animation. I say this as someone who plays mainly omni, reintroduce it pls

[distant torrent]

does stam decay decrease and sprint cost decrease stack..

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[keen plover]

💀

[dusky surge]

clearly necessary

[shut oyster]

Perhaps make it so that dinos don't lose thirst when it is raining? It would allow others to make it to drinking sources since they are typically far and few between migration points. Also for juvi deinos when spawning in and you have no idea where you are in relation to any bodies of water.

[dawn falcon]

They don’t

Galli can run longer with a 3 dots vs 2

[coarse blaze]

It's really cool that you can't buck raptors anymore

Why can't we exactly? Why do we have to clear a folder for it to work?

[slim dragon]

@proven jackal There isn't a random chance to break free from a lunge or a pounce, apart from bugs
You're locked until the attacker runs out of stamina
Also pressing a key changes nothing

[proven jackal]

yes, it is, and its annoying that i can do nothing when i caught. Just wait for luck.

[dusky surge]

there is no chance lol

[proven jackal]

just fast changing dino when raptor or crock got me XD

fast respawn lol.

[dawn falcon]

There’s 100% no luck

[coarse blaze]

No they're right, play deino and you'll get it. If you run out of stamina you'll drop whatever you're holding in said lunge.

It's just most of the time you're not going to out-stam the deino and even if you get let go, they'll just bite you while you slowly float up. I agree it's a bit broken and annoying.

[dawn falcon]

The only “luck” is you breaking free because the Deino happened to forget to hold RMB, which happens quite a bit

[proven jackal]

Luck i mean if enemy stamina is over, i can run away finally. That lucky for me

Yes, exactly that i mean to.

[coarse blaze]

"For example: if victim dino is bigger/heavier, crocks shouldnt bring him just like a doll" that's already a thing, that's exactly why stegs the only one that can drink just fine, they're bigger.

Deino weighs 8 tons, it's the largest creature in the game so it makes sense to grab anything on the rooster just about.

I agree they should take more stamina drain for the size of the creature but I just don't see it happening unfortunately.

Steg weighs 6, it's the second largest creature everything else is fairly small compared to the two apexes.

Omni pin though is pretty dumb, works like lunge but with the great addition of 9/10 bleeding out reguardless if you're let go. Because omnis are so balanced.

[proven jackal]

Thats why im angry... Its not balanced. If you drink (if you are not adult stego) you will be dead. MAYBE if you drink in deserted places you can survive xD but its not good solution for this type of games. No make sense. Every dino should have chance to fight for his life, depends from his ability and size. Actually when you playing Deino your skills are just clicking LMB - done. Noo need more.

[dusky surge]

you actually need to press RMB

[proven jackal]

oh, yea. I forgot about that important skill

yum yum !

[dusky surge]

but i dont know if i agree with that. An omni shouldn't really be able to escape a deino no matter how hard it tries

[proven jackal]

That what's i wrote. "depends from his ability and size"

[coarse blaze]

I think FG teno and carno should have a change along with like - sub stegs

[proven jackal]

Bigger or lower chance to fight/escape

[coarse blaze]

cera is a bit smaller than carno I think (?)

[proven jackal]

Yea. I agree

100% teno and carno should'nt be killed just like that by deino.

[slim dragon]

Carno is 1800kg
Cera is 1300 kg
It's quite a fair bit smaller

[proven jackal]

Btw real deino's weight it didn't 8 tons... Its too much in that game xD he was like 5-6 t.

Why he is soo fat?!

[dusky surge]

there were deinos that reached up to 10 tons

[proven jackal]

why google lying to me soo

[coarse blaze]

It's a video game and not a documentary in all fairness.

[dusky surge]

deinos got big

[coarse blaze]

That's what I thought, thing is a bit tiny compared.

I know PoT added a lunge recently but with the addition of creatures being able to still fight whilst grabbed, it's not an awful idea to fight tooth and nail when grabbed but what can ya do I guess.

[proven jackal]

i think if bigger dino, croc is slower when he got him or using more stamina. How much it consumes it depends from victim size or weight. Its looks funny when crock carry adult teno or carno same slightly like much smaller raptor or pachy.

I just need possibility of fighting with that.

[coarse blaze]

Size and weight are the same, the creatures weight determines it's size.

Teno doesn't weigh even half of a deino.

[proven jackal]

But your strong not depends from your weight.

Fat =/= strong

[slim dragon]

It's not a quarter of deino's weight

[slim dragon]

In the case of deino it's not fat
It's muscle

[proven jackal]

they have muscle in his mouth the most

still should be chance to fight, better player win

croc actually no need skills to win.

[slim dragon]

Yeah
But just making deino use more stam the bigger the prey is doesn't make the interaction more skilled

Just less consistent I guess

[coarse blaze]

To put into perspective in real life, that giant mound of "fat" under it's head? Those gowls? It's all muscle.

Realistically if a 8 tonned croc grabbed something barely 2 tons it wouldn't survive, you really shouldn't try to bring anything realistic into it.

Stamina drain though should scale with the creature it's holding for sure.

[proven jackal]

Yea! Its a game, everyone should have fun to play. Everyone dino need to drink, just have to. Why i must die for it every time. I think devs can resolve that problem for all. To make it more balanced. I dont want to make crocs useless or weaker. But their LMB = 100% kill. No matter what... it shouldnt be like that. Should be chance to fight. Who clicking faster E for example, they can survive 😄 whatever!

[coarse blaze]

Thankfully Gateway has a lot of water sources that deinos can't grab you in

You just might have to be a bit patient and follow the waterways until you find a very shallow area.

[proven jackal]

Yea, more than in Isla Spiro

[coarse blaze]

Spiro is just bad

[proven jackal]

and thats is true, gateway map has more safety spots to drink luckily

but still you are not sure if you will die or not 😦

water = mystery box XD

[coarse blaze]

The swamps have a lot of water that even baby deinos can't sit in. The grass isn't taller than it and it's one of the safest places to drink.

There's also a few scattered pools that aren't connected to any waterways

[proven jackal]

Water access (big dam). There are also a safe places to drinking for all. Couse is
shallow 😄

[rigid tulip]

Does anyone here know the damage numbers when it comes to carno v teno? Recently my friend and I killed tenos multiple times just by 2 carno charged + 2 alt bites. Were they low or is it literally this easy? I don’t remember it being like this in earlier updates, but i dont play teno or carno much.

[dusky surge]

@rigid tulip i've been playing a lot of pachy as of late, and tbh? It's good

[distant torrent]

sounds like they were low or not fully grown tbh unless you somehow got headshots with each hit and they were a little hurt beforehand

[dusky surge]

Like, I'm surprised too, but pachy isn't bad

[distant torrent]

but it is ridiculously easy to demolish a teno with two carnos

[dusky surge]

Pachy has had insane buffs to its endurance

And also defense with improved bleed res

[hollow canyon]

you're right but that's D. rugosus

which the one in the game actually is

thus you're sort of correct

[frank owl]

Carnos charge is really strong.
I don't know the exact numbers but a fresh spawn Carno VS a fresh spawn Cerato using both of their mechanics, Carno wins.
Now as they get bigger, that changes due to weight but the charge does remain really strong.

TLDR; Carno charge strong. Much butt head. Pachy jealous

[distant torrent]

I think the headshot multiplier for teno is 1.5? and charge does 350 so it’s 525 damage for a headshot. that’d make 1050 for two charges. idk what the carno alt bite damage is, but if you jusg go off of a regular bite, it’s 175 per bite which is about 262 with the multiplier. so you’re looking at about 1575 damage out of teno’s 1600 health

guess the teno dies if the alt bite does more damage than the regular bite

[hollow canyon]

charge does up to 300dmg

[dusky surge]

it does 350

[distant torrent]

thought it was 350?

[hollow canyon]

oh was it buffed?

why the hell would they buff it?

[dusky surge]

it's been 350 for a long while

[hollow canyon]

no, it hasn't

it's been 300 forever

[frank owl]

Why do the Isle devs do anything tbh.

[hollow canyon]

it was 300dmg on u7

unless they buffed it very recently

it's 300 dmg

[dusky surge]

it's been 350 for several updates, and at no point has it been stated to have been changed

[hollow canyon]

what several updates?

since when?

[dusky surge]

unless it was nerfed to 300 on Gateway and I didn't know

[frank owl]

It wasn't nerfed on Gateway.

[hollow canyon]

no, it's been 300 on Spiro for like ever

[dusky surge]

nah

[hollow canyon]

idk what it's like on Gateway

[dusky surge]

i was QA, I can tell you for a fact, it's been 350

[hollow canyon]

I can tell you it's been changed to 300 long, long ago

[dusky surge]

so unless something changed

[hollow canyon]

it was 350 at one point though iirc

[dusky surge]

it was 350 long ago, and never got nerfed sicne

[hollow canyon]

then got nerfed

it's been 300 since late 2021

since 3.75 to be precise

[dusky surge]

pretty sure I was QA around the time of U4, and it was 350

[distant torrent]

regardless if it’s 300 or 350 it’s still way too strong

[cursive yacht]

Regardless its too strong lol. They just spam it and anything thats not another carno or a stego has a bad time

[dusky surge]

actually I was QA for U5, and it was still 350

[hollow canyon]

agreed it should've been lower than that

[dusky surge]

this being said, anywhere over 300 is too much

[hollow canyon]

down to 100 maybe

and make it a CC ability

Carno should be biting to kill not ramming things over and over

that's just dumb

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's already a CC ability

[hollow canyon]

knock something out - run up to it - bite - run away

[distant torrent]

100 would work well with its new accel. it’s basically guaranteed to get bites in with the knockdown

[dusky surge]

maybe just not make it cost 1000 stamina a second to use

[hollow canyon]

who cares about its CC? the damage it deals is much better than that of the bites

[frank owl]

It looks like Carno took its original Spiro nerf back in update 6

Special Ability: Charge
Stamina drain reduced
Charge speed bonus decreased
Turn rate adjusted for sprint and charge```

And since then they've only changed stamina cost, what can stop it, and how messed up they get when they crash while charging.
So since then, no changes to damage that were notated.
That was Dec 2022

[lone dome]

What do you guys thing of ptera bein able to grab small juvies and grab adults at their tail?
And wouldnt it make ptera more balanced if he would also do a small amount of bleed damage, so hes actually capable of influencing a ongoing fight?

[coarse blaze]

The anatomy of PTs feet wouldn't really be able to grab things. They're more alike to ours than anything talon like.

Also if it did bleed they'd just harass dinosaurs like they do currently but more effectively. PTs can kill FG carnivores fairly easy given enough patience since things like carno/cera can't hit up.

[crisp patio]

Isn’t ptera damage like 15? That’d mean that you’d need to land 150 hits to kill a full grown cera ignoring any regen and breaks for stamina on the ptera’s side, so you probably need even more). There’s virtually no shot you don’t mess up at least once as well unless you’re incredibly skilled, or am I missing something from just the numbers?

Not agreeing with them being able to grab onto stuff of course, I just wouldn’t say that it’s easy to kill a full grown as long as you have the time, even if you’re super skilled rubberbanding once or something spells your doom

[lone dome]

At the moment I see ptera as very irrelevant in the system, yeah u can poke stegos and carnos till theyre dead but thats also not in the interest of the most ptera-players I think. Nobody wants to poke for an hour on someone, if they would have a better role in the game. Not just the fisheaters that can easily be ambushed from unseen crocs and easily countered from corpses by every pack that consits of more than one player. What do you guys think of a mechanic that grants pteras an actually chance to eat from corpses before bigger carnivores eat till nothing is left. What if ptera could pierce a very little wound with his attack which causes the player to get a kind of sickness when around of corpses? Pteras dont need much, they would take some bite and take off again. I see it could be a new troll mechanic, but I would enjoy ptera again if he would have more relevance.

I agree, grabbing will not be a thing then.

[lone dome]

Does pteras poke even cost stam? I would suggest giving it a higher stam cost, cause its only used for combat anyway. Making it really difficult and frustrating to kill someone, if even possible.

[crisp patio]

The stam is from needing to go back up after the pecks, to avoid crashing into the ground or going low enough to be attacked, so it’s already pretty stamina intensive to do circling pecks on someone, especially with the new stam system. Plus if you land or crash once you’ll need to spend a bunch of stamina to get back up

[lone dome]

In open fields pteras wouldnt have a possibility to safe stam without getting stomped and close to a forest he can be dodged easily

[lone dome]

Yeah I see but it shouldnt be played like giving 150 pecks annoying and eventually kill others, thats what I like to be balanced

[crisp patio]

I don’t think anyone actually can manage to do that. They’ll do minimal damage, and eventually mess up and become a meal

Like sure they can maybe get juvis with some skill but I have never seen a ptera get a full grown carno or anything. I doubt they’ll be anything but an annoyance even in the hands of a skilled player

Maybe if the full grown is wounded or something, and even then, you’re pretty likely to fly too close to them and crash into them, or run out of stamina before inflicting any damage

[coarse blaze]

I agree that they have no real place right now which is genuinely sad since they're pretty fun little guys to play. I think given how PT is currently that it should be able to scavenge and ideally drink whilst skimming, small low DMG, low health creatures aren't new but currently it has genuinely nothing to do; hopefully with more playables and climbable trees that'll change.

[coarse blaze]

There's a guy on NA1 who only kills stuff like carnos and ceras, it's not hard on an all carb diet in an open field.

He genuinely, truly, honestly does nothing else as PT.

I've played enough PT to see so many other players do the same and ask for help when doing so, sure it takes 100 hits or so but that's not too hard when you have to land maybe twice on a full carb diet, they cannot fight back.

[crisp patio]

Yeah but that’s on spiro

Gateway stam regen means it’ll take waaaaay longer to regen your stamina as of landing essentially, so that tactic wouldn’t be as efficient unless you can kill them without landing at all, or you’re likely to lose ‘em I’d say

[coarse blaze]

Until Gateway is offically out I'll only refer to what's currently official. Gateway hopefully solves a lot of these issues I agree

[lone dome]

Youre right, but stam besides, in what kinda role do you want to play ptera in future?

[coarse blaze]

that and I think PT suffers the same thing that stegs did on Spiro, when there's nothing to do players resort to just harassing other players.

Given Gateway's got a lot more going on, more dense cover and they're seemingly doing away with the carb diet (?) I don't see it being an issue.

I'm hoping with things like herras and if hypsi ever gets it's climbing or whenever more flying playables come around that PT will have more to do.

I think though when the rooster of flyers comes about PT will likely be the weak link regardless unless they change up the niche.

[crisp patio]

Exploring the map and chilling, plus hunting hatchlings / juveniles and small dinos essentially, or bullying smaller dinos off carcasses, much like the birdies right now

Once nesting gets more of a use, probably with ovi being added in the future, more nests does mean more juvis to swoop in and catch for skilled pteras as well

[lone dome]

I relate to that except for bullying smaller dinos of carcasses, cause you havent really got a chance to get some of that, cause youre literally oneshot or gonna crash into ground eventually. In my opinion thats just harrassing and annoying other players without any real payoff. I feel like thats not very likely to be a realistic behaviour except he got rejected from his pteracrush 😄

[crisp patio]

Depends how small they are, and how wounded they are. If it’s two juvis fighting, one kills the other, and 2-3 pteras go for it, it’s got a pretty high chance of dying and that gives a corpse for the pteras

But yeah anything big-ish is just annoying for the sake of being annoying

Kinda like how vultures can bully exhausted cheetahs off their kills if there’s enough vultures or the cheetah is small nuff

[lone dome]

I like that, pteras involving and juvi fights makes good sence as it would be enough food for them and bigger ones would get less annoyed in the other hand. But as ptera flying relativily high above the ground I find it really hard to spot small, very fast moving juvis which additionally have to fight

[lone dome]

yeah thats how it is, what do you think of an ability for birds to zoom? so you can kinda scan the evirnoment for action, or some kinda sense like the crocs in water have. Because in reallife hunting birds like eagles or so also have really good vision, they can see tiny mice in grassy fields from hundred meter above. Ingame it kinda lacks that skill, which I think could be a possible balancing.

[crisp patio]

That might be easier with migration zones and sanctuaries in gateway, you know roughly where to expect juvies, but yeah, spotting them is an issue in itself, you could always stalk a non-scavenger juvie carnivore for a little and wait for it to do a kill.

And yeah, a zoom for the ptera would be pretty nice. I don’t know if they had as good of a vision as eagles, but being able to focus on an area could be cool

[lone dome]

If they were hunting fishes under wobbly movements of reflective water, I suppose they had quite a good view. I thank you very much for discussing with me, it was very interesting to hear your expierences, opinions and ideas.

Im gonna post the idea of a zooming feature or visual improvement mechanic into "balance-feedback" channel soon to bring more attention to that.

[crisp patio]

You’re welcome :) I think it would fit better in general feedback though, I think balance is less for adding things in and more for tweaking existing things

[rigid tulip]

I agree it is good, a fracture is devastating. But thats the only reason its good, that it inflicts fractures. If you go up against anything you cant fracture, or you just cant get one ur outclassed and forced to hide. Its def better than teno tho

[marsh wharf]

#balance-feedback message @alpine plover

I think deino water should drop slower out of water, and fill faster while swimming. But food already lasts way too long, its hard to switch diet on a full stomach.

[fallow blaze]

yes the pachy is good again. in fact, he is where he has been before. he already had bleed resistance.
long time ago.
I think he is returned to the original version, without stun. but the Pachy's bleed resistance received an update after its release.
The devs can stay true to their ideas 🙂

[dusky surge]

wow herbivore stam buffs are amazing

these buffs have turned pachy and teno from garbo animals to EXCEPTIONALLY stam efficient animals

@keen plover legit should make it deino can't eat schooling fish at all tbh

legit no need

[keen plover]

Honestly yeah

Eh?

Idk if they’re babies after the deino changes then idm

But fg’s should get next to nothing from them

[golden coral]

Omni is a herbi now? :p

[dusky surge]

i mean teno

[golden coral]

Figured, still funny xD

[dusky surge]

anyway, yea, they feel MUCH better

you can go in for rams, tailslams, kicks and so on without destroying your stam

a full teno combo doesn't even cost 10% stam, which makes it a lot more combat capable

[balmy briar]

@plucky moon if migration zones become battle royal, then this is no longer the dino SIMULATOR i love.

i want to pick my own area to roam in to begin with, and the idea of forcing players together for a massacre battle royal, then please release servers with a different game mode. Survival should be what it always has been, simple survival. If i wanted special mechanics i would be on BoB or PoT, but i want Isle cuz Isle is the GOAT with how its setup, and they shouldnt change that.

[crisp patio]

I don’t agree with reverting stamina, but even the most populated migration zones at the moment aka highlands are far less of a battle royale than center in spiro, and more rich hunting grounds with lots of food for herbis as well

[distant torrent]

as someone who got ruthlessly harassed by 4 ceras for over an hour as a teno because they knew where the food was and I couldn’t just go somewhere else to avoid them entirely, I agree with this message

[balmy briar]

this is exactly my concerns.. the pvp junkies like me are like 5% of the actual playerbase..

the other 95% is just having a good time

[distant torrent]

there will almost always be pvp junkies on an official server at any given time

[balmy briar]

yeah but at least i had immersion playing survival the way it is now, now its just a game mechanic forcing me somewhere to fight 😴 , asif boring AI that dont fight back wasnt enough to kill the mood

[distant torrent]

like it wasn’t even fun the only thing saving me were rocks but these guys just wouldn’t give up even after an hour

it wouldn’t be as bad if teno could actually outstam and easily loose the scavenger playable, or if there were different areas to go to entirely with food

[balmy briar]

expectations: new map , new roster
reality: battle royal, sit simulator , and beautifull map, i WILL give them that, the map is absolutely gorgeous

[distant torrent]

the definitely did the map good

[dusky surge]

i dont see the battle royale part yet tbh

[balmy briar]

just over the top if u ask me with the other changes..

[balmy briar]

sorry i ment migration zones*

cuz thats what it is , a place where you are drawn too just like others

what will happen? a massacre

[dusky surge]

it doesnt feel like a battle royale in my experience

[balmy briar]

like, i was of the opinion that spiro could be done better, cuz the distrubution of plants made certain areas just dead asf , and the ai was unreliable most of the time to find when u actually needed it to come out of red stomach, but id take it anytime with the hotspots in south , and NW , over the migration zone system

what will happen, if i ignore the migration thing? and look for food elsewhere

will i find it ?

cuz so far, i havent

[distant torrent]

I’ve seen the battle royale part everyday because I’ve been addicted to teno. people know where the migration zones are, so they flock there. it’s not as flocked to as before because people already have a battle royale spot or “center” somewhere near a coastal migration area

That lake is swarmed with deinos

ceras everywhere from what I’ve seen

[dusky surge]

i played pachy and really havent had to deal with battle royale

[balmy briar]

originally i thought it be cool , cuz i understood migration was for herbi's only , and was just to create routes for them to travel, wich indeed would be cool to ambush , im NGL i would, but if thats what you HAVE to do instead of it being a Option

[distant torrent]

pachys have been like unicorns to me

I’ve seen more dryos than pachys

[balmy briar]

like why can carnis even smell a migration route

[dusky surge]

weird, because i feel they're better than teno atm

[balmy briar]

depends on the player controlling the dino boss

[distant torrent]

it might depend on the server where people have their specific saved playables tbh

[fallow blaze]

Pachy got some love
Like it

[balmy briar]

ive seen Teno's outperform pachys , ive seen pachys take on a army themself and actually do serious dmg

[dusky surge]

the new stam changes are great for both teno and pachy tbh

[balmy briar]

depends who plays it, some people are warriors

[fallow blaze]

Agree

[balmy briar]

probably because omni has no more stam to fight either of you

[dusky surge]

omni honestly feels fine too

especially with pounce stam buff

[balmy briar]

no... it does not xD , its horrible , u use your stam , your out the fight and have to leave , no more trotting and kiting

[dusky surge]

yea, which is good imho

i hated how omnis could just rest all heir stam back midfight in no time at all

[distant torrent]

I no longer feel scared of omni packs now unless they’re actually big

[balmy briar]

u do realise that all those omni players will just play w/e is the apex right? if its not reverted

[dusky surge]

i played troodon and have soloed so many animals due to superior NV and the fact its stam is so cheap now

[balmy briar]

idk if u good with that, a entire map of apexes

id rather deal with rats

[distant torrent]

if apexes are done right, you won’t be seeing an abundance of them

[balmy briar]

my friend, u can litterally break this game by having 1 alt account

so that has little relevance

[dusky surge]

what?

how does alt accounts have any relevance

[balmy briar]

people can spawn themself food

there are legacy players with more then 70 alts

trust me , its not uncommon

[distant torrent]

if apexes at later stages like sub can’t get much food from fresh spawn playables, then it won’t be much of an issue

[balmy briar]

silly bean, u could grow that alt along side the apex

[dusky surge]

imagine wasting that much of your life to grow an apex

[balmy briar]

aye how people go trough these lenghts is a mystery to me too, but im saying its a thing

[dusky surge]

literally spending hours to feed another anima

why should we balance around these people then?

[balmy briar]

the thing is, in the big picture the way things are is balance , i might sound drunk or high, but if you are gonna make it harder for people who play fair, they will have even less chance against people who dont

[dusky surge]

how

[balmy briar]

everything is tied to stamina usage , agree?

except cera for some reason

[dusky surge]

sure? but how does stam usage somehow spiral to alt accounts lol

[balmy briar]

thats why i said, i might sound high or drunk

i just see it from a bit higher

anyway, stam changes should revert, and migration zones handled better

its nice u have fun on your herbi's now, but my omni boy feels unplayable

[dusky surge]

no, stam changes revert only benefits the "battle royale" you hate so much

i've played omni, it's far from unplayable

[balmy briar]

no it is, unless you do 1x a pounce and run to a bush

[dusky surge]

no, i played in a pack. Which is how you're supposed to. We killed tenos, carnos, ceras and more

[distant torrent]

I doubt we’ll be seeing lots of apexes just because of people having alt accounts. it’ll probably be as rare as seeing omnis spawn in stegs to feed them and their buddies to avoid starvation. does it happen? sure. is it rare? yes

[dusky surge]

Omni does not feel weak at all atm

It feels more balanced than it did in U6.5, that's for sure

[balmy briar]

it feels horrible imo, so question how you kite a cera?

do tell me

[dusky surge]

I don't fight ceras, because I know they have insane bleed resist and thus are far too much trouble for my omni

[balmy briar]

you just did your pouncies , you got like 20% left after that , and now?

[dusky surge]

The only ceras I fight are much smaller than myself

[balmy briar]

cause the idea is you regen while your packmates take over for you temp

[dusky surge]

Which still works btw

I've done it

[balmy briar]

so ur saying, u z walking next to a cera while its tryna come for you ?

show me

[dusky surge]

No, because that's stupid

I don't burn all my stam in a single pounce lol

I also don't play solo

[balmy briar]

so u bassicly only scratch them and wait for the pack to make the kill?

[distant torrent]

I thought their bleed res was nerfed? it’s been about a couple of patches since then, but a few kicks from a teno got me to below half bleed crazy fast when I was playing cera

[fallow blaze]

yes, the devs said:
It doesn't make sense that a bite cost you stamina, because in real life it doesn't cost you stamina either.
analogous

[dusky surge]

Against a cera, yes, because cera has insane bleed resist and is not supposed to be fought by omni

[balmy briar]

idk about you but i dont get double tired from jumping irl either

[golden coral]

You're playing a pack/"horde" animal, you're kind of meant to have a group to punch up to things overall larger than you

[balmy briar]

so your saying, you are only going after free kills?

[dusky surge]

If you hyperfixate on this one matchup with an animal designed to counter you, omni will seem weak

[balmy briar]

yes.. then its playable... proceed

[dusky surge]

Not sure how you came to that bizarre conclusion, but sure

Is a teno a free kill to you? Or a carno?

[golden coral]

Pretty sure they also nerfed the pounce cost, and the effectiveness of bucking, so yeah, seems to me both troodon and omni are probably quite well off

[balmy briar]

yes, i think stego and cera is the only real fun thing to fight atm as a omni

[dusky surge]

So cera, an animal designed to counter omni, countering omni, is bad, correct?

Stego is also designed to counter omni

[golden coral]

To be fair, it's a survival game, you're probably meant to do that

[dusky surge]

Bizarre that you listed out the two animals designed to deal with it

[fallow blaze]

I was just quoting your question.
were not my thoughts

[balmy briar]

stego countering omni, not really 2 brain cells and u know its wide open and vulnerable if u can bait 1 swing out

Cera yes... they are monsters but thats exactly what pulls me to fight them

[golden coral]

Also stego should take at least 5-6 omnis to have a chance vs, a cera should probably take 3-4 due to how resilient it is, compared to carno or teno where 2-3 can do it

[dusky surge]

Stego's inability to counter omni is indicative of how weak it's been made to compensate for the roster

[golden coral]

So wait, you're saying you know ceras are difficult prey, and you're complaining that they are?

[balmy briar]

not at all

[golden coral]

Or what is the issue with the matchup then?

[dusky surge]

Stego should by all means destroy omni, it's slow attacks are indication of how weak it actualy is

[balmy briar]

im complaining about gateway stamina

[golden coral]

But why?

[balmy briar]

cuz the regen sucks

i hate to put it blunt like that, but it is what it is

[golden coral]

But you're complaining that the stamina regen isn't good enough, so you have to compensate by having numbers, like you should?

[distant torrent]

I feel like regen should be touched on for certain playables like beipi, dryo, and hypsi

[golden coral]

I'll admit, I'm a little confused on the issue here

[balmy briar]

i dont need numbers to see its messed up, ive been playing this since progression days on legacy , i can just feel the trot no stam changes are horrible for omni, and when u sit the regen takes forever

[dusky surge]

and yet i got by fine with it

[golden coral]

Not quite what I meant. You can't trot to regain stamina, so you need to rest up, or walk/stand, while your packmates take their turn

Instead of going in solo, and being able to keep going due to stam regen

[dusky surge]

if you're playing omni as a solo "giant-slayer" animal, you'll find disappointment. If you play as a competent pack predator, you'll destroy the opposition

[balmy briar]

show me a clip of you fighting a pachy if u can, id like to see you handle that, or a teno , im curious how u go about it when u drop below 20% and it comes for you

[dusky surge]

I get my friends to pressure it, because I'm a pack predator. I also don't like recording footage because I think my performance is too poor as it is (and I find it redundant)

[golden coral]

Honestly, stamina limiting fighting ability is a pretty good idea, too bad the nerf on the costs of pounce and buck might have been a touch too much, or at least I felt I could pounce far too many times as troodon

Well, I'd not mess with a teno without at least 2 other omnis with me

[balmy briar]

your argument is bassicly, you cannot solo omni , and you shouldnt be able to , to wich i say , i agree but only on the "monster slayer" matchups, i should have no problem slowly chipping away a teno or a pachy

ofc if they kick me in the face

[golden coral]

A pachy, you can probably do. A teno is quite large and should not be that easy to solo

[balmy briar]

teno kick in the face , pachy headbut legbreak , can end tthose fights

[golden coral]

Even a teno is what, almost four times your size?

[balmy briar]

i dont think stamina needs to be yet another limiter

[balmy briar]

still bleeds no ?

[distant torrent]

no one will want to play a playable that can be easily soloed by something they can’t outrun

[golden coral]

Considering how pounce work, I think it does. Until pounce is properly difficult to use, then I'd agree that stamina cost could be a lot less restricting

[balmy briar]

oh it aint easy , i did refer to them as free earlier, and that was a bit too much , my bad. But a kick to the face or a headbut to your legs, and your done

skill expression punishment, not game mechanic limitation

thats what i want, and all i ask

[golden coral]

I'd agree if there were any skill expression in the first place :p

[dusky surge]

Omni actually feels more skill expressive now with stam management

[balmy briar]

there is plenty

[balmy briar]

no it feels the same but slower

[dusky surge]

Good, it should be slower

[balmy briar]

not to the point where u cant kill confirm anymore -.-

[dusky surge]

You can kill confirm

[golden coral]

Sure, if you're teno. If you're any other playable, not really much, you can pick up most of them and be competent from the get go

[balmy briar]

guess il buy a teapot, for all the times il be regening in the bush, cuz if the mayority actually wants this, then at least i want tea while im bored out my ass in a bush

[golden coral]

If you want to go for things that requires more pounces than you can pull off on your own, then yes, I guess that's how you'd have to do it

[balmy briar]

thats how it is rn aswell tho?

cera is 14 pounces , i dont have that in me boss

[dusky surge]

I've played Troodon and gotten off like, 10 pounces in one fight, it's honestly bizarre people think stam isn't forgiving enough

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeIf we ever get to test things out in sandbox for fighting, I want to see if a troodon can solo a teno with the current stamina

[dusky surge]

I've soloed large juvi stegos

So I wouldn't be surprised

[golden coral]

I'm not sure how much one set of pounces do in terms of damage, reaching third stage that is

Got any clue?

[dusky surge]

Not sure, but it feels like a lot

[golden coral]

200 or so? 150? 100? Any estimate?

[balmy briar]

unless bad teno, troodon would probably die upon trying to pounce with the desync , or did they fix that?

[golden coral]

Well I didn't get hit in the fights I were on, going after carno and cera

[balmy briar]

and i mean in a 1v1 setting, cuz you are his full focused target

in pack setting u can def chip dmg

[dusky surge]

i've soloed large juvi stegos in 1v1 so idk

[golden coral]

You still got an adult troodon on a server?

[balmy briar]

stegos are free , the smaller you are , the harder you make their life

try hit a musqito with a baseball bat

[dusky surge]

NA1, yea

It's also late tho

[remote crow]

Stamina is funny for 25 clowns in the server, 2000 people want the old stamina back. Please do it

[nimble sigil]

Does anyone else think that a troodons venom should be more potent depending on the diet? Or that certain stages of the venom are more effective?

[remote crow]

Absolutely agree

[nimble sigil]

I also think that if you are able to get to stage 3 venom it should last a bit longer maybe a minute in a half. That way you aren’t so rushed to keep the venom tick going

[remote crow]

Carno is SILENT AS it doesnt have weight, FFS How an animal of 4 tons can charge without making any noise. Why you devs change the WORKING STUFF screwing everything up, and you dont fix issues from 6.0 I'm speechless

[remote crow]

https://tenor.com/view/sasek-clown-sasage-yo-šáša-šašek-gif-11213608770993839385

[distant torrent]

@supple karma nah, ceras won’t become a problem

because they already are a problem

[supple karma]

They absolutely are

[distant torrent]

I still hate the fact they still have so much stam, the charge bite has no punishment whatsoever for a miss, and their vomit is still meta against slower targets or targets with similar speed and stamina

cough teno coughcough

also stego

probably dibble when that’s out too

[supple karma]

Hopefully dibble has like some resistance to something.

[distant torrent]

I’d honestly have vomit only block attacks that involve biting so its not such a problem to slower herbis like dibble, teno, and stego

[dusky surge]

dibble having resistance would be weird (and not really necessary)

[distant torrent]

a stego would still be able to swing while vomitting, and a teno would still be able to kick or slam while vomitting

I’ve seen more ceras than anything else and it’s so sad

[keen plover]

Different now. They're not really that good of a runner anymore. At least base.

[dusky surge]

teno and pachy feel more stam efficient now tbh

[distant torrent]

what got changed?

[keen plover]

For reference:

Cera run time, 95 - 100s

Teno: 130s

Carno: 110s

Teno also has a better trot and low stam costs on attacks

[dusky surge]

wow carno really got buffed huh

[keen plover]

Yeah.

I just timed the 3 carb diet on Carno and

148s 💀

[dusky surge]

so glad they brought the 3 carb back huh

isn't that really cool that it's back

[distant torrent]

the amount of joy this brings me

I went this entire time thinking I couldn’t run from ceras and had to stay near rocks

no matter the diet

[keen plover]

I tested that last patch though. Idk what they've changed this patch 😭

Could test it to see if Teno is the same if you have one

[distant torrent]

yea I could

[keen plover]

I pretty much ran from 3 ceras & a raptor as teno, sat and got stam and messed with them since they got to me with no stam. Then ran again

[dusky surge]

i managed to obliterate a juvi carno in a sanctuary of a similar size to me without even using 10% stam lol, if that's any reference for how much better it is

[distant torrent]

have you tested the two 3-dot with 2-line diet? I’m curious if that gives more runtime than a full carb diet

[keen plover]

10% stam it said before

not stam but decreased stam

[dusky surge]

pachy's stam feels REALLY good btw, IDK how much it is

[keen plover]

I cleared 2 minutes when I tested it

I forgot but it's 2 minutes something

[dusky surge]

damn

[distant torrent]

I thought it’d stack or something because it gave 15% run/swim and the normal 15%

[dusky surge]

yea, playing it, it feels endurant

pachy honestly does not feel that bad. If they buff the trot, it'd honestly be great

[keen plover]

Ah fairs. I haven't tested all the diet combos since well it would take forever and it's still being worked on.

[keen plover]

Yeah. It's up there. No more tap pounce either

[dusky surge]

And higher bleed res

[keen plover]

Overall win

[dusky surge]

The amount of ceras I've bullied so far is nuts

[distant torrent]

I could definitely test that diet on my teno at some point because that’s what I’m currently running

[dusky surge]

I've headbutt ceras, killed ceras, fractured ceras, forced ceras to sprint off cliffs

[keen plover]

Did that yesterday and died. Honestly, the regrow is fun in sanctuaries. More bullying since Pachy is a menace when same size

[dusky surge]

Pachy's insane stam efficiency with these patches turned it from a weak dinosaur to an endurance king that can run you down, destroy your ribcage and still have enough stam to run away

[keen plover]

Now onto Carno... Busted.

[distant torrent]

agreed

[keen plover]

Trio Carno eviscerates anything that comes into range.

[dusky surge]

it'd honestly be fine with damage on charge nerfed lol

but that didn't happen

endurance carno isn't a bad idea, and they're ALMOST there

[distant torrent]

they’re slowly dragging it there

painfully slowly

[dusky surge]

all you need to do is just nerf charge damage tbh

[distant torrent]

(but that won’t happen)

[dusky surge]

honestly, despite its apparent power, carno has been EXTREMELY scarce for me

like i see far more ceratos

[keen plover]

Apparently Carno's hunger was buffed. I didn't bother to time its hunger, but some people are saying it's equal to omnis

[dusky surge]

i sometimes hear a carno call, but that's it

perhaps i dont go to highlands enough

legitimately though, a hefty damage nerf to charge and a stam buff to charge would do wonders for finalising the kits design

[distant torrent]

got about 157s for teno with the two 3-dot and one 2-line

so it looks like it’s slightly worse than full carb

[keen plover]

3 minute run time teno might be real

[fallow blaze]

@dusky surge a question:
the developers said since update 6.5,
that the public brunch isn't far away.
When the game reaches this status, do you think that the previous dinosaurs will no longer have great balancing?

[dusky surge]

im somewhat confused by the question

[grizzled anchor]

@supple karma You really think Carnos got nerfed into oblivion with gateway?
I feel the opposite they're completely busted rn. With their 0.01 sec acceleration time you really have to predict when hes going to charge at you if you want to dodge.
If you fought a carno as a raptor once you'll feel what I mean.
I even got charged from a carno out of a bush 1.5m from me and after that he just face tanked my fg cera and killed me like wth.

[shadow vortex]

I believe they were talking about 6.5 carnos x)

Still don't get why 6.5 carnos are considered 'so nerfed' but anyway

[grizzled anchor]

That would explain it because gateway carno is busted 😂

[shadow vortex]

Yee

[nimble sigil]

Anyone notice the troodons pounce isn’t working all the time?

[elder steppe]

Yeah 6.5 carnos can definitely hold their own against most dinos. I play on a unofficial and carnos are some of the most played dinos. Literally kill everything in their path all the time, mostly because of the alt bite exploit that allows them to alt bite really fast.

[lone timber]

carno stomps cera without a body or cera without bile. its pretty situational tbh, since carno is the top land carni right now what i've been disliking ab gateway are the packs of 3-4 i keep finding

[elder steppe]

Is the ram hitbox fixed for carno in gateway, in 6.5 im always 10 feet away from a ram and still takes a quarter of my health without knocking me over

[lone timber]

they will facetank you and out class you, cera should never attempt to hunt a carno without a drop on it

[elder steppe]

Yep, even with a body down and a damage reduction its still a close fight

[grizzled anchor]

its absolutely crowded with carnos currently...

[distant torrent]

it might be ping, but that has also been an issue for me when it wasn’t before. I now consistently get knocked over by the tail tip so it’s impossible to dodge unless you’re a speedy and slippery little thing like a galli or dryo

in gateway ^

[dusky surge]

@keen plover Pretty much everything I need from it to be perfect

Its damage output feels really pitiful

[keen plover]

Yeah I dislike how often raptors can get back up

There's also that delay in the game which is frustrating

[dusky surge]

i think it does, like, 100 atm

which isn't super great

[keen plover]

yeah it's too low for what pachy is (it's 125n actually)

Fracture should be useful vs carno but damage should clean up raptors

[dusky surge]

yea

[shadow vortex]

Welp teno is really nice on ST since new stamina buffs for it but I kinda miss 180 degrees kick…

[grizzled anchor]

They're in the same weight class why should the pachy have such an easy fight against raptors that its "cleaning up"?

Basically if the pachy breaks the raptors legs he's most likely dead.
In general the fracture mechanic encourages mixpacking ALOT and Ive also seen it alot recently.
Whenever the pachy is in a group with anything its fracture mechanic is a guaranteed death for the carni.
(Besides pachy already attacks everything it sees cant be that weak then)

[keen plover]

Being in the same class shouldn't matter in terms of their goal / niche? Diablo is smaller than Carno, but we know it will be a very bad time for Carno. Almost a stomp since we know it can stop charge and Carno is not face tanking Diablo. Stego is smaller than Deino and it beats the hell out of it.

[dusky surge]

^

its not dependent on class as much as it is niche

if we're saying class is all that matters, raptors shouldn't be allowed to be large game hunters

[slim dragon]

b-but they're carnivores

[grizzled anchor]

Im talking about weight not size. Yes Diablo is smaller than carno but its still heavy af, so it doesnt have to fear carnos ram like others do which weigh less. Stego also weighs ALOT more than carno so of course the carno wont do much.
The keyword is weight not size.
And a herbivore which shouldnt be used for hunting anything or even attacking if not necessary shouldnt just wipe a carnivore the same weight.

[dusky surge]

diablo is lighter than carno

[keen plover]

Diablo is 1.5t

Carno is 1.8t

[grizzled anchor]

Its not all that matters but it is very important and cant be ignored.
Raptors are a large game hunter because they hunt in packs. You can try hunting as a solo raptor but you won't have fun so yes a single raptor is not a large game hunter.

[keen plover]

Also I wasn't talking about stego v carno. I was talking about stego v deino

[grizzled anchor]

never said its heavier but its close. I said it still is heavy so it wont have to fear the carno ram as much as lighter dinos do.

[dusky surge]

it'll get knocked down the same as teno

teno is heavier and it gets knocked

[grizzled anchor]

Oh my bad then Ive misread it. Well stego is definetly overpowered thats an open secret for everyone who played The Isle. So taking stego the all killing dino as a comparison isnt really viable imo

[dusky surge]

stego isn't OP

[grizzled anchor]

WHAT?! Are you joking rn? Tell me what can be a danger for a fg stego besides other stegos?

[dusky surge]

its literally getting buffed

[grizzled anchor]

Dont know the teno weight rn, but if its heavier than diablo it shouldnt get knocked that easily. But their bodys are built very different so a diablo might tank that hit easier than a teno does.

[cosmic pelican]

A cerato can 1v1 a stego, thats all that has to be said

[golden coral]

That doesn't make it OP, there's more factors than that. Also the same applies to deino, but deino has all the other advantages too. Anyway, weight and size are the same thing, so a carno is indeed larger than dibble, more so than teno even, since teno is 1.6 and dibble is 1.5.

[keen plover]

That's not OP. OP would be if Stego could run really fast and was really strong so you had no chance of escaping it

[dusky surge]

stego is a wall that's easy to avoid

it'd be OP if it weren't the easiest thing ever to evade

[grizzled anchor]

Bruh the stego needs maybe 2 hit or one headshot and the cerato is dead.

[dusky surge]

2 hit is too many for a cera imho

its a stegosaurus lol

[golden coral]

Sure, but the vomit can quickly change it due to any vomit after the first only requiring a single charge bite

[sick epoch]

türk varmı

[golden coral]

Anyway, pachy is on the defense vs an omni, hence pachy should hold the advantage

And unless you get the leg break, omnis seem to be able to escape, which is probably where the wish for better kill confirm ability for pachy comes from

[grizzled anchor]

Yeah it leaves a small window for the cera but thats all, if two equally skilled players fight this fight the stego wins 100% of the time.

[dusky surge]

good

the stego shouldn't be losing solo to an equally skilled cera lol

the cera has the advantage of speed, stam and offensive potential. It can leave if the stakes are too high. Stego physically cannot

Stego is forced to react, it cannot engage

partially because its attack sucks

[golden coral]

If you're talking 1v1, then yes, nothing strange that a stego would win there (though cera can pose at the least quite a bother as long as it gets the one vomit). But if there's 2-3 ceras, they can take a stego way easier, even more so if one of them dies due to the body buff now letting the cera take a headshot and survive.

[dusky surge]

its so goddamn slow and predictable

[grizzled anchor]

Honestly the omni feels terrible rn so not too sure if the raptor escapes, one pounce and it doesn't have enough stam for escaping lol. For 1v1 ofc a pachy should kill a raptor but its damage shouldnt "clean up raptors" is what Im saying.

[dusky surge]

Pachy should clean up raptors 100%

Small tiers should fear pachy for sure

[golden coral]

Pretty sure pounce cost and bucking drain was changed, so I wouldn't worry too much about omni any more, it's probably back to overtuned, since bucking might have gone back to being quite bad

[grizzled anchor]

So a pack of raptors shouldnt have the opportunity to fight a pachy without the fear to lose as much raptors as a big dino would kill? Thats dumb a raptor pack shouldnt have a big problem with a single pachy.