balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

ehhh, nah, just make the rest of its stats better

biteforce should be at least 200

[true topaz]

ABsolutly

[dusky surge]

accel is getting buffed

like that's confirmed, it's accel is getting buffed

[true topaz]

ik that

but stam, hopefully

its the dream

[dusky surge]

stam will be buffed universally too

next update will give every animal a better runtime

[true topaz]

it should with gateway lol

[dusky surge]

it will with gateway

[true topaz]

that shi massive

[rigid tulip]

yeah solo its very risky to play, but in a large group its literally creative mode with an enchanted diamond sword. You just run around the map and chain charge some poor teno or cera that you find, with no consequence, and it dies extremely fast + cant run because carno is so fast. Carno rn is waaay too high risk solo rn, if the wrong group sees you ur just dead. But the same is true with literally everything once carnos get in groups. I think it should get a buff in stam and accel, but it needs its charge nerfed into the ground. Carno megapacks are the single most oppresive and broken thing on the entire island when they exist (yeah i said it)

especially since all of carnos threats exponentially gain a disadvantage when outnumbered (teno, cera, omni) which are all supposed to outnumber carno. Except teno, but teno is just the highest skill floor dino in the game and probably the dino i see by far the least. You have to predict enemy movements and time your hits without getting juked in order to literally do any reasonable damage (land a tail slam) and then in order to actually kill one dino your size you have to eat through half your stam, leaving you dead vs any reasonably good group that accomplishes more than like 3 baits of your tail slam (easiest attack to bait in the game)

in conclusion: fix the 1,00000000 pounce bugs, buff teno, buff pachy, rework carno, deino players are cringe, nothing is new under the sun.

[dusky surge]

exactly right, which is why carno is by far the weirdest balanced animal in the game rn

again, it's a trash-tier animal with a god-tier attack

and carno players realised, because it's such a garbage animal, it literally cannot survive on its own, but because its attack is so good, when you get a ton of them all doing that attack, nothing can survive it

[rigid tulip]

I would rather kill a solo adult carno as a 50% raptor than a solo 50% cera.

this is honestly true with any animal

that i play, at least for me personally

[dusky surge]

carno's charge is also disgustingly safe

[rigid tulip]

now a carno group, all i can do ever is just hide. its so annoying, its like having a boxing match and then some full squad of marines with glass bone and paper skin pull out a 50 caliber and start sniping you

[dusky surge]

because it is 350 damage + knockdowns + carno's insane speed + no endlag, it essentially means carno can make distance if it misses and just immediately get into position to do another charge if it hits

it is one of the safest attacks in the game, which would be fine, if it wasn't also a NUKE

[rigid tulip]

agreed, carno is imo the least healthy dino for the game, and thats saying a lot considering the current ecosystem

[dusky surge]

tailslam, which is much harder to land and has far less benefits, has been nerfed TWICE in two seperate patches to not even do HALF of carno's charge damage

which, again, why

what the hell did teno do to deserve two seperate damage nerfs to its tailslam attack

[rigid tulip]

teno is high risk tiny reward, absolutely wild

the highest risk imo

[dusky surge]

teno should be a generalist brawler, but it sucks ass at it

because its tools keep getting shredded

its overall kit design is still good, bt compared to the damage output of many other animals its size (cera and carno), it falls short

[rigid tulip]

imo tail slam is the hardest attack to land in the game

[dusky surge]

it's a skilled attack

[rigid tulip]

people think teno is so strong because you just cant facetank it when ur facing its butt, like yeah hopefully not

[dusky surge]

requiring positioning, aim, and timing

none of which carno charge requires

i don't hate carno, i hate what carno has become

[rigid tulip]

same

[dusky surge]

it sucks at small game hunting, it's terrible solo, all it exists to do is ruin cera and teno

it's extremely unhealthy

[thin mantle]

I genuinely want to crawl into the brains of people with this kind of take to hopefully answer....WHY

It's just so weird a mindset

[dusky surge]

i legit want a rework where they nerf the charge significantly and just balance out the stats they shaft every update because carno is "too strong" (despite the fact its strength entirely derives from the charge they refuse to nerf)

carno has gotten so many just unnecessary nerfs because its charge is strong, none of the nerfs actually addressing the charge itself

[rigid tulip]

thats a good way to put it, all it really does is go around in groups and destroy anything close to its size via essentially repeated hit and run gunshots

[dusky surge]

sure, charge now melts your stam, but that's not really a nerf to a charge as much as it is a nerf to carno's ability to move around

which carno didn't need nerfed

[rigid tulip]

u know its bad when 1v1ing a teno on norden consists of strafing runs

carno should be mobile and strong, but it shouldn

be hyper effective at deleting anything that it outnumbers, or anything that is a similar size, with low risk

[dusky surge]

it should be more threatening to small tiers, but instead, it's just a menace to larger animals like cera and teno, while lacking any ability to keep chase with smaller, more nimble opponents

[rigid tulip]

ideally it would hunt galli lol but only omni can do that

[thin mantle]

Carno just doesn't have the agility to hunt galli, and omni oneshots it

So yknow.....it's quite backwards

[rigid tulip]

now that i think about it, omni does carnos niche better, plus its able to take on stegos unlike carno

[thin mantle]

Galli even does carnos niche better

[dusky surge]

galli does carno's niche better

galli is literally just a better carno

[rigid tulip]

however pounce bugs + any group of cera and omni feels like trash to play

[thin mantle]

Tbf, omni ideally shouldn't be taking on stegos...but that's for the future

[rigid tulip]

hot take maybe but i think omni should be a big game hunter

like para

[thin mantle]

That's what it already is

[rigid tulip]

(not to bully para)

[dusky surge]

it literally already is that

it does it insanely well

[thin mantle]

I actually have no clue what para or trike or other larger creatures would do to survive current omni

Like if anything it's already too good at that

[dusky surge]

they probably won't lol

[rigid tulip]

yes, but I mean that it should not be reworked to be some kind of small tier bully

[thin mantle]

You'd have to significantly weaken it's primary attack and remove pin from the game to get close to that

[rigid tulip]

the idea of being able to kill things that one shot you is very fun on paper I hope they can give herbivores less predictable attacks

[thin mantle]

Not that I'm saying we should do that but...well that's what it would take

You'd also need to lower its weight most likely

since it's current hp only aids it against smaller combatants than the largest targets it takes on

[rigid tulip]

my point is that it should be a big game hunter and it should continue to fight stego sized things (maybe not stego in particular) but said stego sized things need more skill ceiling

[thin mantle]

Agreed

Tho omni hunting stego is a meme that needs to die at some point

[dusky surge]

still hate how it's being balanced around stego

[thin mantle]

Literally just makes it a large tier nuke when balanced around a large animal designed specifically to fight it

[rigid tulip]

I dont think that its an issue of omni being powerful, but an issue of its prey being hard capped in its capability of fighting. Stats arent the issue imo, its movesets

[dusky surge]

stego's moveset is garbo, yea

[thin mantle]

true, but I can't imagine large animals aside from stego having a much more competent moveset at dealing with omni than current stego does

[dusky surge]

we are currently suffering from the "unfinished herbivore" pandemic where 3 of our 5 herbis are just not even remotely finished

[thin mantle]

especially with how much range stego has

[dusky surge]

people wonder why herbis are so underplayed

[rigid tulip]

whats wrong with omni killing stego? genuinely want to hear. I see how its dumb rn because of stegos tiny skill ceiling

[dusky surge]

maybe it's because they are exceptionally mechanically shallow or just flat underpowered

[dusky surge]

it's dumb because stego should be the king of flank defence

[rigid tulip]

herbis are never played rn since the two herbis that interact the most with the roster are also the most trash

[thin mantle]

Stego is one of the only animals in the whole game with attacks specifically designed to defend omnis angle of attack

[rigid tulip]

teno pachy

[dusky surge]

and the rest aren't done, at all

[rigid tulip]

wym

[thin mantle]

So omni being balanced around one of the few creatures designed to invalidate it is bizarre

[dusky surge]

like, teno/pachy are bad, and the rest just literally are missing vital mechanics to make them have any semblance of depth. No wonder no one plays them

[thin mantle]

Stegos attacks cover it's entire flanks in wide arcs with quite a bit of reach....most larger creatures don't have defenses like that

[rigid tulip]

ahh i see your point

[thin mantle]

Anky is the only other one I can think of and anky is basically designed for immortality

[dusky surge]

an anky dying to an omni ever is literally an insult

[rigid tulip]

makes sense, I think omni's primary targets would be large hadrosaurs and probably carno in the future

[thin mantle]

But against stuff like shant, rex, trike, para.....omni would decimate them

[rigid tulip]

I would uninstall

[dusky surge]

god ew carno being omni's preferred target

[thin mantle]

I hope never carno

[dusky surge]

how far carno has fallen that people believe it to be omni food

[rigid tulip]

what else would threaten it?

[thin mantle]

Carno is supposed to be omnis primary (only) predator

[dusky surge]

allo

[rigid tulip]

a carno with balanced stam

[dusky surge]

like, allo is literally the most perfect option for screwing over carno

[thin mantle]

A carno that manages its stam properly shouldnt' be getting hunted, it should be getting bullied

[dusky surge]

agreed

[thin mantle]

But smaller creatures buy and large shouldn't be challenging carno successfully unless at a massive numbers advantage...and even then carno should be capable of just leaving

[rigid tulip]

Its weird because when you think about it no carnivores should really be getting hunted besides small tiers like irl

but obv that doesnt work in practice

[dusky surge]

not really, no

[rigid tulip]

i just dont like the idea of a dino not really having a target on it

[dusky surge]

if im a bear and i see a wolf and im hungry, i'm killing the wolf

[thin mantle]

I only say that for canro specifically because carno is the fastest animal in game, a well balanced carno shouldn't really be capable of being caught

[rigid tulip]

i think every dino should

[dusky surge]

i don't believe that should be the case

[thin mantle]

It still would, just not conventionally

[dusky surge]

see: quetz

[thin mantle]

And ptera

[dusky surge]

nothing is hunting quetz, it's just not happening

quetz only dies when it messes up

[thin mantle]

And deino, like spino CAN kill it....but never will

Unless they make spino comically fast

[rigid tulip]

irl it could sprint and walk well, perhaps they will design it to have some ground combat

[dusky surge]

okay but it's not designed about that

[rigid tulip]

perhaps spino would just out stam deino

[dusky surge]

look at the concept art, it's clearly going to fly around and attack from above

[dusky surge]

that sounds very lame

[thin mantle]

Probably not

[dusky surge]

then deino is just screwed

[rigid tulip]

thats gonna be wonderful, pt that one shots you lolll

[thin mantle]

the idea of spino even having a good stamina economy barely makes sense to me

[dusky surge]

deino should be expected to be allowed to escape spino in water, because it's already 100% screwed if it tries to get on land

[thin mantle]

It's one of the dinos least in need of the ability to even sprint ironically

[dusky surge]

but yea, i don't see carno as something that "needs a predator", especially not omni

[thin mantle]

Water renders spino immune to terrestrial threats....and it bullies everything in that environment

[dusky surge]

ironically, on the topic of needing predators, spino really doesn't have one either

rex or giga, it just goes "nah" and jumps in the water, and we know there exists no aquatic that can stand against it

[rigid tulip]

u rite

[thin mantle]

Yup basically

[dusky surge]

its main threat is being overwhelmed and getting kicked to death

[thin mantle]

Apex has never applied more to an animal than it does to spino

Then there's also like....brachi

[rigid tulip]

hypothetically the only way i see a full grown spino dying is getting mixpacked by deinos and a rex

[thin mantle]

If that ever becomes playable

[dusky surge]

i hope it does, unironically

[rigid tulip]

cause i feel like rex would completely destroy it on land and a deino or two could finish it off

rare occurence tho fs

[thin mantle]

Same kinda sounds relaxing

[dusky surge]

for the sole purpose that if they intend to add hypers, the concept of brachi v hyper being a true clash of titans sounds amazing to me

like i want hypers to be the only thing to threaten a brachi and then it's a literal colossus smackdown'

[rigid tulip]

what about packs of gigas?

[dusky surge]

i unironically am of the belief that giga packs should not concern brachi

[rigid tulip]

dam bro you dont think that would be fun tho?

[thin mantle]

Yes

[dusky surge]

not really no

[thin mantle]

I really don't

[dusky surge]

like look at 'em

[thin mantle]

I don't think brachi against groups would be fun

[dusky surge]

i only want brachi for clash of the titans gameplay and that's it

[thin mantle]

I also don't mind there being an inoffensibly unkillable walking mountain of a playable in the game that just kinda exists

[dusky surge]

giga packs killing brachi would be extremely dull to me

[rigid tulip]

me either

but idk the concept of taking down something that big at all as a normal carnivore is just so cool to me

[dusky surge]

hyperendocrin doesn't have a valid matchup, making brachi the herbi-equivilant to hypers is great imho

[rigid tulip]

just a difference in taste i suppose

[thin mantle]

Thats what shant is for

[rigid tulip]

really hope that sauropods get added tho

[thin mantle]

a 14 ton walking wall of death

[dusky surge]

or the three other sauropods that are smaller than brachi

[thin mantle]

Yup

[dusky surge]

leave brachi in particular as the hyper wrestler

because that's cool and i will not accept the concept that it isn't

[tall bronze]

I could honestly see Giga packs taking a Brachi.

Not necessarily wise but it seems feasible.

[dusky surge]

i still hate the idea

[rigid tulip]

I didnt even think about that, brachi being the biggest of the big kinda does justify it being the hyper equivalent. We need something like the hypers for carnis, otherwise we are kinda just adding onto the already long list of reasons to not play herbi

a diplo vs giga pack would give the same feel

[dusky surge]

like we have 3 other goddamn sauropods gigas can face against

let brachi be the exceptional exception

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/reasonsimbroke-larry-david-hbo-hbo-max-meh-gif-24169087

[rigid tulip]

makes sense to me

[dusky surge]

if brachi dies to a giga pack, i'd say brachi is underwhelming as hell

like i want a clash of the titans, i want hypers and brachi to be of a similar level, the only true challenge a hyper has, but something that can actually feed its unstoppable hunger

so when a hyper appears, it actually helps moderate existing brachis and makes for the most cinematic fight ever

if a brachi dies to three gigas i think it sucks lol

[tall bronze]

To me personally, I quite dislike that idea because I don't like the idea of that being the o n l y threat to a Brachi. That's just my onion though. 👉👈

[thin mantle]

I genuinely just think it would be lame

[dusky surge]

why? we have tons of animals that exist without proper threats

not every animal needs to be put in a constant state of paranoia

[tall bronze]

I never said I want it in a constant state of paranoia though

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/40k-astartes-bolter-boltgun-dakka-gif-17604583

[tall bronze]

All I'm saying is I can see it being possible for some damn good Gigas (which if done right, should be every adult Giga basically) to do it. Not easy at all and kinda dumb, but possible.

[dusky surge]

brachi was entirely designed, as an animal, irl, to just ignore literally any predators. Gigas could not do jack, nothing could. Hypers bypass what predators could naturally do and actually creates something that could realistically fight a brachi without getting instagibbed

[thin mantle]

I don't mind if 4 adult gigas could gang up on a brachi

[dusky surge]

also a hyper is the only thing that'd need a brachi dead because nothing else needs that much food

[thin mantle]

I just don't think 4 gigas existing at once should be possible

Adults obv

[tall bronze]

Yeah and even then it'd be h a r d. Like orchestra music, health bar appears, name above the screen levels of hard

[thin mantle]

I want it to be like.....bare handed no hit unleveled malenia difficult

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Like if you didn't kill something sufficiently large near the fight location you'll starve before the brachi dies

[fallen vale]

That's litteraly what I argued for the moment I saw what they had done with Carno in update 6.0 ST which you kept arguing against. Glad you came to your senses. Carno is 100% brain dead at this point. Charge, charge, charge, charge, charge. Which is a shame because I used to actually enjoy playing carno. Most of what made carno fun to play at this point has been taken out of equation for a dumbed down forward only heatseeking missile. Anticipation has been also completely removed from the equation, press charge from any distance and aim at what ever you want, doesn't matter you are gonna hit it anyway

Nerf charge, buff basic stats a bit at least

[dusky surge]

back then, tenonto could actually defend itself and pachy helped keep the carnos in check

it was harder to see the underlying issues of carno

[true topaz]

just listen to what me and rex and nocturnal dryo said, to sum it up, buff carno bite force, buff carno accel and stam, turn charge into 2-3 ticks, whcih have a 1 minute-1 min and a half cooldown

also

make carnos charge do 180-225 dmg\

instead of 350

[dusky surge]

200 would be a decent compromise

[true topaz]

yea

mayeb 215

[obtuse ocean]

I dislike the charge, but its still carnos ability. And it should be effective vs small if that’s what the charge is intended for, cus its absolutely garbage at chasing anything small. As omni its just fun to see how long the carno will run after you until he gives up.
Either it needs to be effective at chasing or charge, it cant be bad at both. Even small buffs to stam and bite wont help it much.

[dusky surge]

which is why lowering the stam cost and damage would be better

[sonic marten]

Jesus they Magya is an elf compared to everything else loool

How is it supposed to survive?

[dusky surge]

well, yea, it's a dwarf sauropod vs apexes lol

its like comparing tenonto to shant

[sonic marten]

Ye ye

What are it's mechanics tho?

I'm new

Sorry 😅

[dusky surge]

kinda unknown atm, we just know it tastes like ass and basically nothing but cerato can stomach it

[sonic marten]

That's... Kind of intelligent

[dusky surge]

lots would disagree

i personally love the idea of a more interesting survival strategy

i am kinda hoping that it works like an inverse cerato, where biting it makes the attacker unwell

[sonic marten]

Why so?

[dusky surge]

people hate magy

[sonic marten]

I know 🙃

[dusky surge]

basically meaning you either need to use non-bite attacks, or just avoid it

[sonic marten]

I mean, it's a dwarf sauropod

I don't know many things it could do to defend itself tbh

[dusky surge]

i believe it has a shoulder check and a tail swipe

its also covered in ostreoderms

[sonic marten]

It's something

[halcyon elk]

It also likely semi aquatic so it's able to traverse the islands

[sonic marten]

Really?

That's cool

[dusky surge]

was that said?

like seriously i'm interested

[halcyon elk]

No, but it is likely they could be going that direction.

It's the only dinosaur in the game that actually comes from an island. It should be somewhat semi aquatic.

It osteoderms should not only grant them a lower multiplier on their neck, but also likely grant defensive options

[dusky surge]

also give it bleed resist

cera-level bleed resist if you must

[halcyon elk]

That too

[fallen vale]

That never happened. Carno was completely busted as soon as there was more than one. 6.0 was a carno fest on every servers and it was very predictable

We are quickly hurling on 1 year of completetly broken and uninteresting Carno gameplay & balance

[dusky surge]

i mean, i don't think carno has EVER been well balanced

[fallen vale]

It was never as bad as the last 2 patches, not even remotely close

[dusky surge]

i genuinely think Legacy did carno better, which is high praise from someone who hates basically every animal in legacy

[fallen vale]

turning charge into a spammable ability that is pretty pointless to attempt to dodge, requires little thinking before using, can't be countered anymore and scales way better than anything else with numbers was a sure way to create an environment where one specie just dominates. Most people have a "if you can't beat them, join them" approach to playing this game so...

Same goes for utah pounce having no downside / risk anymore, the only reason omnis are kept in check is because Carno scales better than omni with numbers and steam roll them

[dusky surge]

it wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't also mathematically one of the best attacks in the game

high movement, high damage, easy timing, little aim, hard knockdowns

when you compare it to tenonto's now painfully pathetic tailslam, it's bizarre how it continues to remain as-is

"high stam cost" is barely a penalty, and it's bizarre that devs assumed it to be so

it just makes carno generally less user-friendly and that's it

[fallen vale]

I wrote an entire essay about power creeping during update 6.5 ST that got instantly dimissed by QA guys. Bottom line is carnivores got all extremely buffed on top of herbivores all getting nerfs after nerfs. Meaning for the average Joe playing herbivore unless he somehow manages to find a big herd, which is one big IF feels that he has all the cards stacked against him. On top of most likely be outnumbered systematically

[dusky surge]

true, all herbis got done real bad. Pachy needed the nerfs, sure, but tenonto's nerfs just felt like it was catering to unskilled cera players. Also pachy got overnerfed with nothing to compensate

[fallen vale]

I think overall nerfing canrivores a bit or at least not doing a complete arms race would have been better for the game, on top of leaving herbivores behind in the dust and nerfing them

[dusky surge]

i mean, i wouldn't say all carnis need nerfs.

Troodon is fine, might need some more buffs honestly
Carno needs buffs as much as it needs nerfs
Cerato only needs stamina nerfs and potentially nerfs to how bacteria impacts all weights equally
Omni needs to actually suffer some penalty
Deino... Yea deino needs nerfs

[fallen vale]

My main concern is as new dinos keep on being added with more abilities everything is just gonna end up being buffed left and right to keep up. Which is the litteral definition of power creeping and what we have clearly seen with 6.5

Which I think is bad for the game as it leads to a very unbalanced ecosystem.

[dusky surge]

True, I really hope we don't see powercreep. Carno's new accel is well and good, but if charge remains as-is, dear god

[fallen vale]

Troodon is extremely strong, probably a bit too much, it suffers from bugs on 6.5 where you die to random desync / hitbox. If you didn't lose half of your group on dying while latched or what ever I think troodon would probably be too strong

If you fix that troodon is in en entire different place

[halcyon elk]

I do have an idea for carno.

[dusky surge]

i'm concerned its venom will leave it just kinda worse than dilo tbh

[halcyon elk]

Essentially it's both pursuit and ambush.

Depending on the prey you use either strategy

Gallimimus, Omni, and other more fast prey require pursuit hunting to chase down.

While more dangerous prey, teno, pachy(somewhat), and later diablo. Require an ambush to catch them off guard and secure the kill.

Trying to rush down a diablo that's holding its ground is going to most likely get you killed.

[dusky surge]

okay, quick point, if you aren't expected to be able to ambush a galli, how are you gonna ambush a pachy

galli is like, the most ambushable animal in the game

[halcyon elk]

I mean you should also ambush galli.

[dusky surge]

still not a fan of ambush carno

[halcyon elk]

Ambush carno is only in circumstances where it is required in order to hunt effectively.

[dusky surge]

i mean

carno ambushing is already ineffective on account of it being an open plains predator lol

[fallen vale]

The argument that I have seen thrown around miserable combat balance when it comes to herbivores vs carnivores is "Well your are supposed to runnnnnn" except nobody cares about playing something that everytime you see something you are dead unless you run. And stats clearly support that

[dusky surge]

also i think personally carno shouldn't have so much burst that a single ambush from it is enough to kill diablo or teno

[fallen vale]

So yeah it's all very cool and fun on paper... I guess? But no one plays like that

[dusky surge]

(in most cases herbivores struggle at even doing that)

so it's a terrible argument to make in the first place

cera stams down pachy and teno and carno/omni outruns them

[halcyon elk]

I'm thinking of it this way, you aren't winning against a solo diablo solo if you don't get the drop on it.

[fallen vale]

teno going 0.1 km/h faster than Cerato that had litteral vomit lock, the most busted ability ever seen in this game since carnos had fractures on charge was used as an argument that "you should flee"

[halcyon elk]

You can maybe hurt the diablo a good bit. But you are not winning.

[dusky surge]

i mean, i don't think carno getting the drop on a diablo should be impactful enough to make it die as opposed to just running it down

because that implies nukecharge

which i despise

[halcyon elk]

Well not nukecharge. More rather the stun is what wins it.

[fallen vale]

Well this is something that some people including myself have been extremely vocal against and warned about what would happen

Now as far as I'm concerned I said what I had to say about that. I resolved to limiting severely busted species on my own server to prevent one specie dominating the entire ecosystem. Which is a big bandaid but makes it more fun for everyone. I have no intention to play again on official servers after what I have witnessed there, largely caused by balance decisions.

50% of your server in one spot in water chatting as deino
Land animals being largely megapacks of one carnivore specie. When it's not then it's mixpacking.

Update 6 felt like a wasteland

[dusky surge]

if it's doing enough damage to the point that a diablo would be in legitimate concern for its life after a single charge, that's probably not good

[halcyon elk]

Fair. But also diablo is probably around teno size. Likely is main defense is it's block and sparring technique

[dusky surge]

imho, something teno size should not be put in a considerably weakened position from carno's charge

[fallen vale]

Carno charge being the easy to pull off attack that it is should not cancel out other abilities (maybe some like pounce).

[dusky surge]

it's why it sucks so much ass to play cera when carnos realise that swarm mode will obliterate every cera off the map

[fallen vale]

Especially knowing that a carno group will just charge non stop from many directions

[dusky surge]

essentially yea

it's bizarre, all herbivores either suffer from being unfinished, being bad, or both

[fallen vale]

pre 6.0 carno was way more balanced. Easier to play solo and did not scale as hard in numbers since you could actually cancel out / dodge charges

[dusky surge]

@random stump what's this about stego?

[random stump]

incase they decide to nerf a creature that runs too far
Lets say the lower ceratos speed/stamina to make it a bully, stego could end up catching it
thus, increase stegos stamina drain after said change, not reduce its stamina
it can still use just as many tail swings, but it cannot run as far

[dusky surge]

very doubtful a stego will ever be running down a cera, no matter how much you nerf its stam

[dawn falcon]

@wispy valley Perfect diet being the epitome of “most fit and healthy” is very, very nice

[wispy valley]

Thank you so much. I really had to think about how to make the perfect diet a jack of all and master of none without going overboard

[cobalt dagger]

I'm curious, if a male's marking color is something like, white, does it become a brighter white?

With the proposed perfect diet

I assume if it's brown then it becomes more saturated/a more orange or rusty color?

[coarse blaze]

The idea of males with better diets looking more striking to advertise that they have a perfect diet is a really great idea.

[wispy valley]

I believe the increase in vibrancy should be equivalent to regaining your normal color after being low health/starving. It would be an extra stage in color and vibrancy, and even scale shininess.

[wispy valley]

In general, scales should appear a bit shinier under the light with a perfect diet, so your white colors will stand out with a more visible gleam on your scales/feathers

Keep in mind, this only applies to male pattern markings

[cobalt dagger]

Oh wow I didn't know there was a color change for starvation or low health, that's neat to know

[wispy valley]

Yeah, colors dull out on low health/blood and your Dino appears to look more emaciated when it is starving

[mortal tundra]

@fervent kettle It gives the pray the time to get away. I'm pretty sure it's intended.

[fervent kettle]

@mortal tundra I thought about this after I commented and yeah. My bad. If you can’t manage your stamina then you don’t get a free escape.

[mortal tundra]

@tepid vessel Cerato is not an apex. It's supposed to be a scavenger. It's supposed to hold it's ground, but it's actually pretty good at killing stegos. It just takes a lot of time.

[random stump]

ceratosaurus, if balanced properly around what it is intended to be, would literally never hunt

it would JUST steal corpses from other species, and it would likely never beef with any herbivore

the isle players are going to use it to hunt anyways but thats not what its meant for

[wind lynx]

????? @random stump

????

2nd one unrealistic tho that gator woops cerato

3ft deino = 4tons

[true topaz]

Allo in game would be nice at hunting stego too

Hopefully

[mortal tundra]

True, but cerato is supposed to be a scavenger rather than a hunter, yet can kill any creature, even deinos as long as they're on land. Troodons can also kill stegos even though they're small, but they have a very hard time with things like omniraptors. And omniraptors have a very hard time with ceratos and deinos.

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything is supposed to be able to kill everything else, and that ceratos are better at hunting than they're supposed to be.

[true topaz]

Oh yea ceratos are way to good compared to how they were planned

Not even the tank that it was supposed to. e

Be

Hopefully carno gets rebuffed lol

[true topaz]

Wheel don't laugh at me😭😭😭😭I'm really sad now😭

@unborn iris

😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Literally crying brudda trust 💯💯💯

I think that means I need a cookie now

🍪

[stiff glacier]

To be completely honest ceras buff when around bodies straight needs to be removed

Compared to the entire roster cera just seems like it's the golden child by giving it the inability to vomit, BUFFS, a charge bite, ect...

Not to mention, even when the devs say it's hard to overpack as ceratos because of food consumption goes into the garbage because of just how slow they lose food

[dusky surge]

nah, it's fine, cera gotta be able to actually body defend

if anything about cera needs nerfing, it's the stam

the stam is stupid

[robust agate]

does really everyone think that its good to upgrade carno? Carno is still the the strongest against cera and teno and its way easier to kill them as carno then for them to kill a carno. I mean carnos bleed resistance is a joke and thats another thing. but if u upgrade carno again, then there is no fun playing the other two. Especially because its very op to have that speed and u are the one able to pick ur fights. it seems unfair that u are stil stronger even though u are the one that is able to run when ur outnumbered or losing.

[dusky surge]

carno needs buffs in stats like stam and accel, but its charge 100% needs a nerf

[robust agate]

yeah

[latent bay]

Hell no

The stamina does so it can keep up a fight away from bodies, maybe slow it down and give it a little more durability away from bodies in some way to compensate for the lowered speed, but the body buff definitely shouldn't be removed

[dusky surge]

i dont think it needs more durability away from bodies tbh

[latent bay]

I think it does only IF it gets a speed nerf

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'd rather it get a stam nerf

[latent bay]

It needs a stam nerf and shouldn't get compensated, but if that happens and it gets a speed nerf, it should get like some small 5% or 10% damage reduction at all times or enough weight to not get knocked down by teno one of the two

[dusky surge]

i dont feel it needs any of those changes

[stiff glacier]

Agreeable

[latent bay]

I dont think so either but I see "nerf cera speed" so much to a point where I think it's worth enough to mention

Or at least I used to see it thrown around a bunch

[dusky surge]

stam probably better than speed tbh

[latent bay]

I fully agree

[stiff glacier]

I feel like if anything they just need to nerf speed slightly, atleast to the point where a juvenile carno or Utah can litterally be ran down easily even in charge

*can't

It's ridiculous because no matter what you do to escape a cera it can always chase after you if you're smaller

[dusky surge]

i mean, stam reduction would help

[neon willow]

I mean... If it didn't have insane stamina then smaller things could juke them and still get away

[stiff glacier]

True that

But it would definitely still stay the same regardless

Sure, stamina would be reduced

But with the insane one-hit charge bite+ how the cera sorta jolts forward in the animation

AND it's ability to turn on a dime

It would never work

[latent bay]

Almost every current carnivore is faster though, just run

Juveniles get cucked because juveniles themselves have problems

Juveniles getting railed by ceratos is a juvie issue and not that big a of a cera one

[stiff glacier]

I feel like they need to drastically change juvi play style

[dusky surge]

that's what they're doing with sanctuaries

[latent bay]

Yes they absolutely do

Either give them a place for themselves (sanctuary) or make them play differently from adults a la juvie/sub rex on legacy. Make juvies not just a beta test of adults

[stiff glacier]

For example; camouflage. People probably talk about this alot but litterally every single dinosaur doesn't have very good camouflage as babies

Cera is a pale white mash of colors, so is carno and stego

They should have speckled and stripes like fawns for camouflage instead of just being... Bleak

And eventually grow into the colors you give them

Animations or mechanics for hiding, like a baby deino digging into the mud because of it's dark coloring to escape adults

Or laying in tall grass

Not to mention... Certain areas for juvies aswell, like you said

Carnivores should have mainly ai diets from 1-50% like bees planned in the near future for the isle and increase the spawning of rabbits and frogs in certain safer areas like low-hanging trees or maybe even a swamp biome where you could hide under roots or collapsed logs

[dusky surge]

i dont think they should have mainly AI diets personally

[stiff glacier]

It would be a good way to separate babies from adults, and still give the adults the chance to snatch and juvies that stray away from their areas

[latent bay]

Maybe also make their special abilities work differently as they age? Like making charge for juvie carno be a movement option, but as it ages, the charge becomes the ambush tool it should be?

[stiff glacier]

Sure, carnivores could also have other dinosaurs on their menu

YES

[dusky surge]

disagree with charge being an ambush tool

[stiff glacier]

I've noticed carno juvi stamina is much more slow to drain as babies

[latent bay]

Ok whatever the hell tool it's supposed to be, i forgot ambush carno was mid

[stiff glacier]

Carno charge is 100% an ambush tool

[dusky surge]

nah

it shouldn't be, anyways

[stiff glacier]

Don't Just nah me

Explain

[dusky surge]

the fact that it is shows a clear problem

carno is by far the worst candidate for "ambush predator" out of the entire roster

[latent bay]

Well as an ambush tool you get 300 damage Hydrogen Bombataurus Nukeastrei

[stiff glacier]

I'd have to disagree with you because it is the PERFECT candidate for ambush, although it certainly is a bit overpowered, and I'll tell you why

[dusky surge]

a creature that is entirely specialised in wide, open, clear plains that relies on ambush? probably not a good combo

especially when said animal is meant to be a small-game hunting sprinter, and ambushes are less effective on more agile, quick animals

[stiff glacier]

As we know carno is one of the fastest carnivores on the roster, not including galli, planned

[dusky surge]

it's an ambusher because it sucks at everything else

and it even sucks at ambushing

that acceleration really doesn't make it super good at it

[stiff glacier]

People think carno is supposed to be a dinosaur strictly for plains but I disagree because I've played it, although it would need a serious overdrive to become a efficient one

Carnos would hide at the edges of forests near open areas where herbivores would likely visit for safety, with it's camouflage

[dusky surge]

it is, in the words of the devleopers itself, meant to be an open-plains specialised predator

the fact that it is so fargone that people assume that carno isn't meant to be that shows how badly its design has ended up going

a sprinter like carno should be moving, not staying stationary in a forest at the edge of plains until something rocks up. The only true "plains predator", and it's not even allowed to be in the middle of plains because otherwise it loses a hunt

it's such a lame fate for an otherwise cool animal

[stiff glacier]

Knockdowns would, of course, be nerfed in terms of damage but increase in Time the creature is stunned

[dusky surge]

why?

nerfing the damage i agree with, but why increase knockdown times

[stiff glacier]

I just feel like they've butchered carno to a point that it's no longer either a plains predator nor an ambusher- carno can't sneak up on things, but also it's turn speed is so atrocious it can't hunt anything accurately unless it's large where it gets absolutely wrecked

[dusky surge]

i mean, they have butchered carno, but it being an ambusher is also butchering it

[stiff glacier]

Not butchering, but it would be a more specialized creature

[dusky surge]

it's literally already extremely specialised

making it an ambusher makes it ridiculously overspecialised (and lame)

basically just delegates it to the role of "worse allo"

[stiff glacier]

You can barely use the speed that your given now, a ambusher-like predator akin to a cheetah with knockdown would be much better than what we have now

Mind you, this is MY opinion on how it should be and I'll continue playing it as such

[dusky surge]

cheetah carno is such a bizarre comparison

cheetahs have basically nothing in common with carno besides speed

it's comparing apples to oranges because they're both fruit

cheetahs are small, subtle and quiet, with coats designed to blend in with the tall savannah grass, relying on speed and agility over brute force

carnos are large, imposing and loud, standing well above the foliage of the plains, relying on speed and brute force over agility

carnotaurus is literally directly translated as "carnivorous bull". Bulls are not known for their subtle, ambushing nature

forcing carno into the role of a cheetah is designing it for failure

because it is physically not built to take on that role

[stiff glacier]

Fair nuff, I was just stating my opinion and what i think would be

Kinda cool

[dusky surge]

i swear people just think carno is a cheetah because it's fast

(even though forcing dinosaurs into modern day roles in ecosystems entirely unlike The Isle's is already a bad decision)

also ambusher carno is legit just a worse allo

the reason I want roamer/pursuit carno is to make it not a worse allo

allo is a plains-based ambusher that
A: Can work better in environments besides plains
B: Is bigger
C: Is stronger
D: Has more generalist roles so it isn't trapped with extremely polarising stats

allo is just better ambush carno

[dawn falcon]

I literally don’t get the reason why people think Carno shouldn’t be the dominator of the plains, which is it’s own biome?

Afterall, Allo might as well be the forest dominator because that’s its preference range

[dusky surge]

because they also believe it to be an ambush predator

which means it naturally can't be a plains dominator

[coarse blaze]

I think carno just being a roamer in the plains works, it doesn't need to ambush when it's whole thing is "it'll chase you down at a scarily fast pace and knock you to the ground if it sees you"

Personally I think carnos sprint should take less stamina than it does currently but should drain quickly while charging. With how small of a stamina pool carno has it feels awful for traversing the map if you're not trotting everywhere.

Alternatively if it's trot speed were increased instead I'd be satisfied.

I'm just sick of ceras also just chasing me down with me having no out, but that's an issue with cera having all the world's samina.

[dusky surge]

@compact bolt carno's bloodpool is at a normal 1.8 ton level

the issue is the fact that it has specific modifiers that make it bleed faster when standing, walking and trotting

[slim dragon]

@analog mirage Or nerf deinos' mobility in water because it's honestly ridiculous for an animal this big

(bigger than a killer whale)

[analog mirage]

I think keeping deino fast in the water is fine to make up for its atrocious land speed, allowing it to catch prey in chases

[slim dragon]

But it's an ambusher, not a pursuit hunter

Having deino this fast means every other semi-aquatic must either be insanely fast or unviable

[coarse blaze]

Agreed

[mortal tundra]

@tall bronze Full adult beipis can kill boars and only lose about 40% health. I've done it multiple times.

@analog mirage You might get killed by a deino as a baby or juvenile beipi, but as an adult beipis are faster than deinos. And I do agree with... the skeleton guy up there ☝️ that deinos should also just be less agile in water.

[analog mirage]

Beipi can’t outswim deino. Lunge in the water allows you to just charge forward and one shot them. It’s literally impossible to escape them

[dusky surge]

you can use agility to escape in my experience

never swim in a straight line against deino

[analog mirage]

Also it makes sense that deino would be the apex of the waters and to be so fast. If a Bary or any semi aquatic sees it coming, they should just run for land as soon as they can

IMO

[distant torrent]

every time I’ve played beipi, I’ve been snagged by a deino because I attempted to breach. breaching is underwhelming imo because it’s so easy to see where they’re going to dive back in. the playable is great in its sub stages because its both small and has a great breach

adult is just so underwhelming to play. large hit box + terrible breach that’ll get you killed

[frail bobcat]

Being a ambush predator does not nesitate it being this fast when it has the lunge

[analog mirage]

At the end of the day it’s a big gator and wouldn’t make too much sense for it to not be so fast in water. Perhaps keeping the speed but nerfing the turning while in the water to make for better escapes

[hasty coyote]

What we could do is nerf the sprint swim speed by a bit, but keep the lunge speed. So you can move fast, but only in short bursts. While also being able to sprint across the water for a decent while at a decent speed.

[keen plover]

Doesn't beipi have better water vision?

[analog mirage]

No

[keen plover]

Almost certain it does

[analog mirage]

It sucks

At least at night time

[keen plover]

Then if that's the case, just give it a way better water vision

[analog mirage]

Maybe not during the day

I know both deino and Beipi have rather poor vision underwater during night

[keen plover]

Beipi's nv is kind of better, since you can see shapes

[hasty coyote]

You get the line vision, but does croc even get line vision? I haven’t played it recently

[keen plover]

It doesn't

[analog mirage]

Croc has standard vision but it’s really hard to see

[hasty coyote]

Then yeah beipi does have decently better water vision.

[keen plover]

Spiro rivers are also narrow

No need to change Deino

[hasty coyote]

But even then I have seen crocs sneak up on groups of beipis.

[keen plover]

For bary, just give it the old under water sense

Let beipi swim faster than bary

No issues then

[analog mirage]

Even though Beipi vision underwater MIGHT be slightly better to a degree it’s still terrible

You can see shapes but barely

[hasty coyote]

I can see with the lines fine personally.

[keen plover]

Yeah same, but that's just our personal opinion

[analog mirage]

Fair

[keen plover]

If a lot of people are struggling then it needs changes

[hasty coyote]

But I was also one of the people fine with the original nv with lines

[unborn iris]

Beipi nv is different for different people. I see the lines really good but a friend barely does at all. Not sure if it's a hardware/software thing or what.

[analog mirage]

In my experience it’s usually just hard to see infront of you and if a deino is there you kinda just die because by time it comes into vision distance with lines you die

Also that there really isn’t anything to highlight

[golden coral]

@quasi kayak First off, stego takes about 5% per swing, so it's far from unlimited. Second, teno, unlike stego, has useful alternative attacks, including a claw swipe that takes no stam at all. Third, the entire point of a stego is to have reach, so it would be odd if stego was limited in that way, instead of being able to reach on both sides and all.

[analog mirage]

I’m gonna say this but stego is honestly fine as it is

I think a lot of issues with it come from players being over confident, latency, or just pachy being pachy rather than stego itself

[unborn iris]

Obviously the player who thinks stego swing doesn't cost stam is going to think stego is OP.

[golden coral]

Wouldn't surprise me if they had a run in with some hacker

[analog mirage]

I mean if a stego knows how to manage its stamina and predict baits of course it’ll have a bunch of stamina

Could be either

[slim dragon]

Beipi NV is basically a black screen for me
I can see the river's floor when I bump into it, but that's all

[mortal tundra]

Last time I was a deino I could see way better than I could as a beipi at night.

[shrewd mango]

troodons envenom should be more leathal at younger growth and weaker at higher growth but do more bite damage when they latch on....

[slim dragon]

That'd be extremely unbalanced

[shrewd mango]

and Carno and Cera and Dieno are not unbalanced?

[mortal tundra]

Troodons can easily spawn in when small and just kill stegos. Why get to adult?

[slim dragon]

What's your point ?

[stark knoll]

So why make another dino unbalanced?

[mortal tundra]

☝️

[shrewd mango]

look at rattle snakes, they are more venomous at younger stages why can troodon be the same?

[slim dragon]

Because that'd be unbalanced

[mortal tundra]

Because then you wouldn't want to grow and babies would be WAY more powerful.

[stark knoll]

That's a myth

And even if it were true, it'd be a horrible idea for the game imo

[shrewd mango]

cool

[slim dragon]

@mortal tundra So basically that's rolling back to how diets were before the gore update ?

[dusky surge]

sounds really lame lol

and basically shoehorns the whole shopping list diets

which sucks

[mortal tundra]

I can't think of any better way. All carnivores don't even have to hunt things in their diets.

[slim dragon]

Carnivores shouldn't have "things" in their diets

Because that's stupid and impossible to work with on the long term

Because with 50 playables, either carnivores will have to remember a list of the 30 species they can eat and ignore the 20 others, or they'll keep the short lists we have now
And have a 20% chance of finding a prey item they can eat

[unborn iris]

Or just give some other small bonus/perk to eating meat on your diet.

Instead of punishing using organs.

[slim dragon]

For what purpose ?

[unborn iris]

Just to give incentive to hunting stuff you are "designed" or encouraged to hunt.

I assumed that was the purpose of the suggestion.

[slim dragon]

Personnally I would entirely remove the concept of "preferred prey items"
I heard someone here once made a pretty good suggestion on the topic

And then animals will eat what they can hunt

Which is how "preferred prey items" happen in real life

[dusky surge]

so true

so unimaginably correct

its almost like preferred prey should derive from your own capabilities and needs rather than what something tells you you "need"

[slim dragon]

Would you by chance happen to know who made that suggestion ?

[dusky surge]

yes that would be me

[slim dragon]

impossible

You don't ever have good ideas

[unborn iris]

It's just an easy balancing option. You can't always perfectly simulate the natural conditions in a survival game. Presumable certain dinos would be balanced around their matchups with their "preferred prey items".

[dusky surge]

It's a bad balancing option

The way you make preferred matchups is by making that prey more viable to obtain

[slim dragon]

That's not balancing
That's trusting the players to not break a flawed game, although they could easily do so

[unborn iris]

That would be the optimal way to do it, but not always achievable.

[dusky surge]

for instance, the fact that cera and deino are on omnis diet should be raising red flags to how this philosophy doesn't exist

[neon willow]

Rattlesnakes have slightly more toxic venom as babies, but also have significantly smaller yields than adults. To the point where the chance of death is WAY higher from an adult than a baby

[slim dragon]

"Oh no I'm a rex but that helpless magy over there that cannot run or fight back is not on my diet"
"Too bad I can still just kill it and leave its body to rot"

[unborn iris]

It's one of those things that sounds good, but that doesn't mean it's easy to do. Sometimes taking the easier way is better until something more complex could be worked on.

[dusky surge]

this is literally the harder way

[slim dragon]

There's one way that works
And one way that doesn't work

[dusky surge]

the easier way is to remove the preferred prey and just make organs the basis of nutrition

[slim dragon]

And yes, the way that works is harder

[dusky surge]

then add special exceptions for egg-eaters, bone eaters, piscivores and so on

[unborn iris]

By coding preferred prey items, that's already in, is the harder way? It obviously worked before we had organs. Now we have organs, it needs to be adjusted.

[dusky surge]

it didn't really work before we had organs

it was a trial and a half (and it still is)

[slim dragon]

Even if it did work, it will work less and less as we get more playables

[unborn iris]

True.

[dusky surge]

here's how to do it

organs = nutrition gain
stomach = nutrition drain (lower stomach = faster drain, fuller stomach = slower drain)
special exceptions = certain animals dependent on niche can eat certain things and benefit (suchos and pteras can eat fish for nutrients, ceras can eat bones and rot, oviraptor can eat eggs, etc)

literally done that's the system

[slim dragon]

I still think there could be a middle-ground by having "meat types" in order to limit things a little bit
Like "lean meat, fatty meat, bony meat, rich meat, fish meat, eggs"

[dusky surge]

you fill your stomach to maintain your nutrients, meaning that "raw meat" isn't useless

[slim dragon]

Mans still thinking he's better than the devs

[dusky surge]

that's fair. Having lean meat provide carbs, fatty meat provide lipids and tough meat provide proteins, for instance, could provide reasons to hunt specific animals

carno, for instance, provides protein because my man muscular

[slim dragon]

But in tiny amounts so they don't overshadow organs

[unborn iris]

That's basically what we have now that you are arguing against, except it's much less customizable per species because I'd assume carno gives everyone S?

[slim dragon]

You don't actually need to "customize" diets per species

[dusky surge]

yea

per species customisation is silly regardless

reward scavenging more than it is

everything should want a part of a big trike corpse

[slim dragon]

Also makes megapacking less enviable, especially with big dinos

[unborn iris]

Realistically, yes. But just because you don't like the idea of diets forcing interraction between certain dinos, doesn't mean it doesn't actually work to do so. With your suggestion you completely lose that balancing option.

[slim dragon]

Diets do nothing about interactions between dinos

[dusky surge]

^

[slim dragon]

It just makes it so carnivores are supposed to ignore certain potential prey items

But they don't because that'd be stupid

[unborn iris]

It definitely does, not so much with organs now, but that's because organs are so much better.

[slim dragon]

Cool, I see omnis jumping into water to eat deinos all the time
As they should

[dusky surge]

kit should do that, not diet

[unborn iris]

Yeah.

[dusky surge]

carnos won't magically start killing adult stegos because they gain more from eating them

instead, they'll actually be rewarded for curbing young stego populations

this change serves to broaden the scope of what can be hunted, which is exclusively good

if a carno benefits from eating a herrera, it still won't matter if the herrera never leaves the tree

[slim dragon]

i.e : omni having deino on its diet

[dusky surge]

it makes scavenging and body contests worth having

[alpine plover]

@mortal tundra you had a good take

carni mains are just bad at the game and hate having the game being hard

organs remove the point of diets completely

carni mains don’t care and would rather have a broken system then actually having to use skill to play a hardcore video game

[slim dragon]

There's a difference between "bad" and "hardcore"

[alpine plover]

?

[slim dragon]

The shopping list diets are bad, not hard

[alpine plover]

it is hard

[slim dragon]

Organs are quite a bit better, but of course having them both at the same time makes it all boringly easy

[alpine plover]

organs make shopping list diets pointless and also makes diets in general for carnis pointless

[slim dragon]

Organs don't make shopping list diets pointless
They were pointless from the beginning

[alpine plover]

how

the point of them was to make growing harder

[slim dragon]

All I see them doing is forcing carnis to ignore perfectly fine prey because "not on their diet" and have them rely on luck in order to have the food their need
Because AI isn't consistent enough to sustain solely on it (which is a good thing)

But I don't want to spend 20 minutes repeating myself, if you want more explanation you can just read the conversation above

[mortal tundra]

Yeah this one's a bit harder to balance out. I've got nothing. 😅

[keen plover]

No need to make carnivores complicated. Give them the tools and let them go from there. If you can drop a stego as a carno, you deserve all the food

[unborn iris]

So from this statement I have to assume you are implying herbivore diets are "hard"?

[neon willow]

Honestly I'd be okay with that. Let herbis be hard to kill. Both because that cranks up the difficulty of carnivores way more than any shopping list of diets could, and because Herbis are overall underpowered right now

But also diet for herbis needs work too. Carnivores gotta do the math to see if they want to risk a fight for food, herbis need something that involves more brainpower than sniff for bush, hold E, profit

Because that is really boring

[random stump]

herbivore diets arent hard, they're unintuitive and boring sure, but they arent difficult

[neon willow]

That's the problem. I don't care about difficulty, but herbivore diets are boring

[random stump]

i would rather have something be very difficult and fun then boring and easy

[neon willow]

There's gotta be some way to make it more interesting

[random stump]

i think migration is doing alot about that but idk yet
cant know yet just cuz it isnt out

[neon willow]

Well, in legacy they tried to make it harder by forcing herbis to eat more. But the problem was they spent all their time going from bush to bush and holding E. It's still not fun, you just are forced to do the not fun activity constantly or you die

Maybe they could make herbivores need to do a puzzle or something for food

I don't care whether it is easy or hard, but it does need to be fun

[raven anvil]

@distant prairie bro im sorry but thats just a horrible choice because certin dinos like carnos need that olus it do be relistic

@mortal tundra The carnos dont even got stegos or ceratos in there diet but theres tons of them which organs help carnos live more since they already got nerf to death

[coarse blaze]

@quasi kayak Stegosaurus' tail-attack takes stamina with every swing, you have to stop to swing, it's fairly precise and is fairly slow. It's not OP, you either need to learn to bait swings or just not engage with the 6 tonned herbi when you're not even half it's size.

[thin mantle]

Stego is Genuinely a litmus test for whether someone has enough critical experience with how Evrima works

If you think it’s seriously threatening and difficult to kill you’re probably new, or have the mentality of a newer player at the very least

[coarse blaze]

Solo cera, a good solo cera can get steg down to 50% in a fairly decent amount of time

people aren't patient enough or get too cocky and die

[thin mantle]

2 can take a stego down in less than 10 minutes

[coarse blaze]

People straight up just don't want to get better and complain that it's "OP"

[thin mantle]

Stego just can’t deal with pounce and vomit hard counters it’s whole identity

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which is funny considering how genuinely simplistic it is

[coarse blaze]

I just don't get it, I don't want to say "lol skill issue" but it kinda is

[thin mantle]

It’s not like 2 tenos fighting where it’s practical a battle of two master fencers

It’s a heavily choreographed wall of HP that can’t do a whole lot about you deciding to hit it

[coarse blaze]

Teno takes a fair amount of skill to be good and the poor thing doesn't even deal much but steg you just need to drain that stamina and you're fine. Plus you can safely hit it's head more often than not because that frontal swing is so slow.

Most stegs I see chase things for whatever reason and drain most of their stamina anyhow

[thin mantle]

Mhm. The irony is hilarious. Teno is without equal the most skill expressive playable in the game and the playables it exists around have so many methods of trivializing it…
This on top of the least skill expressive animals (at least when it comes to skill floors) in the game like Omni or deino have the highest value mechanics of the roster

It’s just….wild

[coarse blaze]

It is genuinely absurd

Holding hope for Dibble to be a good little fella that can fend off at least something

[dusky surge]

don't worry, a dilo will lose a 1v1 to it and get it nerfed

[thin mantle]

Its funny that we're hoping for it to be somewhat competent against....anything....considering it has the least engagement authority of all animals below 6 tons

Like it HAS to be capable of beating everything that attacks it most of the time or it just falls over

Same as teno but potentially to a higher degree

[coarse blaze]

I just want a good herbi, I don't wanna play the carnivores all the time.

I want some herbis to be a challenge and not a pushover

[dusky surge]

but that makes it too hard for carnivores to win

and we can't have that

[dusky surge]

@olive zinc congrats u actually made a good anti-mixpack suggestion

not overpunishing in terms of stats, doesn't provide any method to troll with

generally does provide a punishment that impacts survival over combat

first ever anti-mixpack suggestion i don't have an issue with

[dusky surge]

@hardy dagger the only thing i like is more than just pounce applying venom, everything else is bleh

[hardy dagger]

Wym?

[slim dragon]

More ways of applying venom is one of the things I don't like about the suggestion

[dusky surge]

i feel bite should have some kind of application in these things tbh

i'd personally have it that bite is less effective to apply venom

but it can still do it

like 2-3 bites to progress up a stage

[slim dragon]

And how do you manage the "venom duration reset" with one third of a stage ?

[hardy dagger]

Why?

[dusky surge]

troodon's pounce is literally goddamn garbage at juvi hunting, ironically, which is my problem. The amount of momentum you get will literally launch you over prey most of the time

[slim dragon]

Either it takes away from troodon's identity and pounce's usefulness, either it just makes it too OP

[hardy dagger]

Lol I find it that when I pounce small targets many times it’ll just force me off

Sometimes the pounce will register and stage 1 will begin and other times it does nothing

[slim dragon]

I'd say that

1. Troodon might not be designed to hunt things smaller than itself
2. If it's small enough for you to pounce, you probably don't need venom to kill it

[hardy dagger]

Then the juvie raptor your hunting turns around and pins you and kills you xD

[slim dragon]

If it's smaller than you it can't pin you

[hardy dagger]

That’s what I supposedly thought until that happend to me

[dusky surge]

then it was bigger

[hardy dagger]

Not visually

[dusky surge]

okay but it was still mechanically bigger

[hardy dagger]

But I found out that there’s a point in juvie raptors growth that allows it to pin troodons but also it can’t get pinned aswell.

I meant can get pinned

[slim dragon]

I guess that's when they're the exact same weight

Like when 2 adult raptors fight each other
They can both pin each other

[hardy dagger]

To me it’s all about the fact that pouncing atm has a high chance of getting troodon killed.

And since everything else is pretty much faster than it they can easily catch you when your hopping off. Pair that up with latency issues and high ping official servers and you probs dead.

[slim dragon]

Personnally I wouldn't balance around latency and ping as those are not part of game design

[dusky surge]

never balance around ping lol

[slim dragon]

And if pounce is underperforming (which it isn't to my experience) then pounce should be buffed instead of left to rot as a useless mechanic while allowing troodon to apply venom with bites

[hardy dagger]

True but when it’s most important ability bugs out 40% of the time. I do agree with you but I think it’s undeniably a weak Dino atm.

[dusky surge]

i wouldnt say troodon is weak

[slim dragon]

It isn't

[dusky surge]

honestly i dont think it's weak at all, as a troodon main myself

[hardy dagger]

Ok but pounce does the most damage regardless. It’s always gonna be the most effective damage dealer. Bites would just be there for opportunity.

[slim dragon]

Not if bite is a safe way to apply venom and get bonus damage from it

I wouldn't mind bite getting the damage buff from attacking an envenomated target like pounce, but that's it

[hardy dagger]

It already does.

[hardy dagger]

I think that if your good it’s very possible to make troodon work which is why I continue to play it but I think that it could use some sort of placebo buff. Especially since venom hasn’t been finished.

[dusky surge]

that's all i see it needing

a finished venom to not make it a less interesting, smaller dilo lol

[hardy dagger]

I personally think it’s should increase a dinosaurs stamina drain.

[dusky surge]

oh and pounce not being stupid

[dusky surge]

isnt that just body fracture again

[hardy dagger]

Meaning they use more Stam when running or alt stacking

[dusky surge]

yea so body fracture

[hardy dagger]

Didn’t know body fracture did that

[dusky surge]

that's its main thing lol

[slim dragon]

I just don't think troodon needs a buff
Not until dilo is released at least
Or maybe it could have its venom reduce NV range

[hardy dagger]

Would it even be too much to ask for a increased dismount speed from pounce

[slim dragon]

wdym ? Dismounting from a pounce is instant

[unborn iris]

Just incase, you know you can aim your dismount right?

Aim behind them and they can't as easily land a bite when you dismount.

[hardy dagger]

I’m taking about when jumping off you move quicker

[dusky surge]

honestly, what I'd do for Troodon venom, if it intends to attack the body, is trick the player into being more scared of it. Namely, Troodon venom impacts the body by attacking pain receptors, making the animal feel like it's closer to death and giving inaccurate health readings, which actually makes the thing scary because now you don't know if you're almost dying, and want to get away from the thing

[slim dragon]

Hmmm
So replace the "hurt" overlay with a special venom overlay and hide the heart counter in character screen ?

[dusky surge]

yea

essentially, that

thats how you make it a night terror

but then again, it seems the devs have already hidden the heart

which i'm honestly a fan of

screw metagaming my exact health percentile to the decimal place

[unborn iris]

I feel like making the venom work better for other dinos attacking the target is a slippery slope and would make them much more useful for mixpacking.

[hardy dagger]

I even thought maybe making venom like a tracker allowin troodon to see targets on there scent bar

[dusky surge]

i mean, that would also be nice

but i primarily wanna focus on the fact that it's built more as a body attack

dilo is mind, troodon is body

[stark knoll]

You can already scent envenomated targets

They get highlighted

[hardy dagger]

Yeah but hunting in the jg can be hard with such a short camera angle

[dusky surge]

if we're getting a tracking venom animal, it's megalania

without a doubt

[hardy dagger]

And I think troodons should excel in jg hunting more seeing as it’s usually dangerous fighting in open fields for them

[unborn iris]

Just make the highlight visible somehow through objects and range increase as level increases. Only affects the troodon and doesn't make the venom a good mixpacking tool. Giving troodon wallhacks for jungle areas would kind of fit, since vision for them is such a big factor.

[golden coral]

Wouldn't that be great for mixpacking, now you don't need a ptera, just a few troodon and your target can't hide at all, whereas a ptera would struggle to see something in the jungle, the troodon can tell you exactly where the target is/went, possibly removing the need for tracking as well, as long as sufficient stage of the venom has been reached?

[unborn iris]

True

I was thinking very short range, but you are right. Probably would be pretty strong.

[slim dragon]

Well everything is OP when mixpacking is taken into account
Can't chase down the thing you want to kill ? Just have a pachy friend break their legs
Or you could have a deino friend guard the waters for you so you can drink, and oneshot everyone who comes near thinking the water is safe !

[golden coral]

Very true, but no reason to add more potential variations to the mix!

[slim dragon]

More potential variations will be added, unless you want every new dino to be a carbon copy of one of those that we already have

That's what happens when you make unique mechanics in a game with a toxic community
They lead to unique exploits

[hasty coyote]

By that logic we should not add any new dinos with combat abilities. Dilo? too strong in a mixpack due too its vision limiting, gone. Herrera? Too good at ambushing small things or acting as a scout, gone. etc etc. Whatever the case is, we shouldn't balance around mixpacks, otherwise mixpacks would be the only option.

Plus the issue isnt the mechanics themselves most the time, its the fact that they can be used together and benefit both sides WAY too much. We just need systems in place that make mixpacking a less viable option. My main suggestion would be be like this: #general-feedback message So mixpacks will actually have a struggle finding food, thus they are less sustainable the bigger they are, making it much less viable of an option.

[slim dragon]

@white dagger What the hell are you playing as so that a deino needs to grab you THEN let a stego swing at you multiple times before you die ?

[white dagger]

carno and cera do need 2 swings to die and are hard to hit if you have the intelligence of the avarage mixpacker

[slim dragon]

But doesn't the lunge itself do enough damage so that they die in 1 hit after being grabbed ?
And why didn't the deino just drown you ?
I mean, I'm not against nerfs to Deino, and I'm not sure why it's even able to lunge from land in the first place, but I don't understand the reasoning here
The situation you mentioned is just less efficient than what the deino would have been capable of doing alone
Unless there was no water nearby ?

[white dagger]

this takes place away from water

like 100 meters or so

too far for it to drown you

[distant torrent]

honestly I really like the idea of deinos not being able to lunge while not touching water with any part of their body

[slim dragon]

Ok I get it now
Still, I find this isn't really a problem with mixpacking but just with deino itself

As it could have done the exact same thing with another deino

[keen plover]

Yeah it's a pretty powerful tool with other deinos

Not as bad as update 6, but it's one of the reasons why they feel comfortable on land

[white dagger]

true but it will affect mixpackers

idc if its 2 deinos doing that but ususally they would be in the water

[golden coral]

Not really, more so consider the mechanics added? Is there no way to have dilo vision limits but only workable for dilo and not for others for example? I was not saying we should balance around mixpacks, just saying that there is that whole sentiment of how something can be abused that should be taken into consideration when adding something, playable or mechanic. Yes, do we need systems to prevent mixpacking/herding, but that does not mean we can't look at a mechanic and how it works or can work to only be useful in one way and not another. Like with dilo, would it be possible that the visual limiter only applies to the dilo in some manner, that any other playable can show up in some way otherwise, or something. I don't know why it's somehow a strange thing to consider how a mechanic can be abused and look at how it can be done to not be as abusable. Same with how we do with mixpacking suggestions, and why most of those are shot down and not approved of. Precisely because they can be abused and be used for griefing in some manner.

[golden coral]

Wouldn't this be a good example of how a mechanic could be used and could also be revised to make that particular usage less effective or not doable at all.

[mortal tundra]

@hardy dagger I do agree that troodon's pounce should be fixed, and omni's, but other than that it's fine the way it is. If juvi troodons had venom they'd be better than adults, because they're way harder to see. And who would care if you died or not? They're faster than most creatures, but things like carnos, omnis and gallis are faster, but they're faster than most creatures. They do lose stamina fast, but it regains very quickly as well.

[hardy dagger]

Remember man. The venom is not a DOT effect. It only amplifies its current damage and juvie troodons have between 1.00-5.00 biteforce. At max envenomation that 5 biteforce goes to 10 still less than a full adult.

I also do like troodon the way it is im just sick of dieing cause pounce gets me killed 7/10 times. And I believe its current speed correlates into why it dies. Utahs when they dismount from pounce are fast enough and big enough to get away easily but because troodon is smaller it doesent jump as far and its slower so doesent move away as fast which means a stego can still impale you during dismount and ceras can easily alt bite/ run twoard you while your still in the air and kill you as you hit the ground.

This is my best example of such case

[graceful swallow]

Hopefully the heart hidden is not just a debug or admin thing, thats what I personally wanted, no health indicator at all accept redone blood on screen to be more dynamic, Or the heart on your main hud/ui while playing without hitting tab, both are fine with me and anything inbetween feels weird

[golden coral]

I'm not sure dismount should be all that safe, neither for troodon nor omni, since it's one of the few times they're somewhat vunerable, that and on mount. Good timing from the target should allow for a hit on mount/dismount, since it's unlikely you'll catch the faster and more agile thing otherwise.

[keen plover]

@remote crow What about Teno was too strong? Were you a carno or cera?

[remote crow]

Cera adult, 3 shot dead--- I think is not fair against an apex predator but ok.. I dont care, we will play all tenonto

[graceful swallow]

Does teno really 3 shot fg cera with tail slam?

[unborn iris]

Not even close.

[graceful swallow]

Good, was bouta grow a teno

[remote crow]

yes

[cosmic pelican]

A perfect combo of 1 tailslam and 2 kicks all in the head put a fg cera at 19% hp

[remote crow]

exactly and it is not normal

[cosmic pelican]

But thats basically impossible to pull off in a real fight

[cosmic pelican]

Cerato is not meant to hunt...

[remote crow]

I was resting

[neon willow]

sounds like you met a hacker if you ran into a teno that really killed your cera adult in 3 hits

[cosmic pelican]

And if it has a body it wins by default

[hardy dagger]

Thats fair in the case of the stego and fair counterplay against omni which honestly as a troodon you can predict and play around stegos swing. But in the case of omni,cera,teno. The troodon is not more agile. Meaning as troodon your expected to play perfectly as to avoid getting hit but even if you play perfectly as troodon you will still probably die. In that video I even played perfectly which I predicted the alt bite and got the pounce then when I dismounted I used my agility to turn away yet I still got f'd by official server ping in that case.

[graceful swallow]

theres a chance that the teno was cheating btw

[cosmic pelican]

3 kicks in the head is enough, but pretty unrealistic to pull that off

[remote crow]

nono, No cheater... neither sus

It's simply stupid damage

[unborn iris]

More than likely he just tried to facetank a teno's ass and got kicked to death.

Him big carnivore. He should've won.

[cosmic pelican]

Cerato does way more damage with charged bite than all of tenos attacks combined

[graceful swallow]

Well they found you resting outta no where, also cheaters can headshot you even if they hit you in body or tail, not saying it Was a cheater tho

[cosmic pelican]

Actually cerato is smaller than teno🤓

[remote crow]

I dont think he was a cheater, but still he catches me undefended

[cosmic pelican]

Well played by him, sneaking as a herbivore is no easy task

[remote crow]

GG but way too much damage

[cosmic pelican]

Especially when you cannot hide your tail at all

[unborn iris]

You have an attack that does more damage, uses no stamina, and infinitely easier to hit than his main damage attack.

[graceful swallow]

I think teno is strong but any stronger and itd be able to kill full grown carnos with ease

[cosmic pelican]

Tenos does much less damage than ceratos charged bite or carnos charge, while being a backwards facing attack with the smallest hitbox in the game

[unborn iris]

You should not really be losing a 1v1 against a teno, maybe struggle a little with a really good one.

[remote crow]

I had no chance to charge bite, he kills me before i can stand up

[unborn iris]

Well..

[remote crow]

Way too much damage

[unborn iris]

That's something else.

[cosmic pelican]

Teno vs carno is pretty one sided if the teno knows what its doing, if its a 2v1 tho then its insanely carno sided

[graceful swallow]

Agreed but, ram spam

[cosmic pelican]

You can dodge it

Not the easiest thing to do, but with practice you can do it reliably

[graceful swallow]

they just run then ram you over and over, also ive tried to dodge rams so many times, is mostly just luck if the game thinks your hitbox touched theirs

in my experience

[cosmic pelican]

Ive managed to dodge charges plenty of times, at most I got hit on the tailtip

Hard to pull off though

Even against 1, 2 is just impossible sadly

[graceful swallow]

Oh true I need to remember just bc I got hit dont mean it was a very damaging hit

[cosmic pelican]

Tanking 35 damage is basically nothing in the grand scheme of things

[graceful swallow]

Yeah and then they get a ram on your head and its 500 damage

[cosmic pelican]

I wish good tenos could 2v1 carnos again

[unborn iris]

The tailslam not reliably cancelling charge seems like a bad idea.

[graceful swallow]

teno players dont play anymore mostly I imagine

I enjoy teno tho

[cosmic pelican]

Me and my friend tried teno not so long ago, we managed to stay alive for 2 weeks, playing every day, fighting was fun, until we were outnumbered, in the end, we died to a cerato megapack, without any chance to fight back or run. I hate the fact that once teno is outnumbered, even by just 1 it just auto loses.

Even though Id say both of us are good at teno

[golden coral]

Cerato I can agree with, though they are a resilient target anyway, omnis I believe you're meant to be hunted by as troodon so it makes sense they're scary for you, and teno do have some vague flank ability with the tailslam, but it's nowhere near as good as stegos from what I know. Pounce in general has issues, the whole face/tail pouncing removes a lot of danger from the mount, hence dismount at least needs to be dangerous, for now. Maybe if mount only worked on the flanks, dismount could be a lot safer since then you'd be much more likely and at risk of being caught while mounting, which would be why you ambush or have pack mates to distract of course. Also the fact that troodons can somehow hunt grown stegos is very weird, perhaps a scaling on the venom would be needed so it can't punch up a hundred times.

[hardy dagger]

Well stegos are so much easier to fight than everything else

Just because they are big slow targets with predictable swinging

[golden coral]

You got caught resting, you only have yourself to blame there. Teno is larger than cera, and cerato isn't very tanky. Resilient, yes, tanky no. Also cerato is not an apex, nowhere near.

[golden coral]

Yeah, which is more on the stego being terribly designed honestly

[keen plover]

It takes 4 kicks to the head to drop a cera. If it was a tail slam, you would need 6 of those

[hardy dagger]

I dont think its terribly designed. I think that it has weaknesses that certain dinos are better at capitizlizing on such as omni and troodon.

[golden coral]

But the size difference still makes it a little funny, you'd be able to do the same to trike and rex probably, easier because less reach compared to stego tail, but slower because more health/bleed to whittle down.

[hardy dagger]

Yeah but alt bite makes it very difficult. And if there is more than 1 stego then they will literally just slap you as soon as you hop off

[golden coral]

Except the flank attackers should suffer vs the flank defender. That'ws why stego is terribly designed. Troodon and omni should never touch a stego, they should go for things like maia, diablo, trike, even rex. Animals that do not have flank defenses.

[hardy dagger]

well I think that depends on how good stego is. If hes just flailing his tail around yuh but if im baiting it out then jumping on it thats different

[golden coral]

Like, the entire point of stego tail reach is to counter small and agile stuff with proper AoE and so on, something that even with alts, you don't have as much of, or as effective, since alt turns you around, thus opening your other side up for being attacked, much more than a tail attack that can come on either side from a stand still.

[remote crow]

1 tail slam and 3 kick I was dead

[keen plover]

Sounds about right

[remote crow]

not even the time to react...I simply didnt see him arrive... maybe my bad? ok...

[hardy dagger]

If stego really is designed to counter flank attackers and its really bad at that then I guess I agree its poorly designed but I think its cool the way it is because it stomps the bigger stuff that realistcally should be hunting it

[golden coral]

Not really, by all rights stego should be able to just swipe a pounced playable off itself. The entire point is that the tail reaches on the sides, thus making any approach there more or less impossible. Or at least it should be if stego had proper swings and didn't behave like a scorpion. Hence why I say it's terribly designed. A stego fighting without terrain is easy prey for 2-3 omnis and probably troodons too. That's how bad the kit is for the stego.

[keen plover]

Unfortunate situation, yeah. Cera does have the benefit of escaping a teno when it's aware though

[remote crow]

Yes maybe... but still I think it's a little bit too much for an erbivore... It's just my umble opinion

[golden coral]

Such as? There's nothing big enough in the game that should be hunting stego. Cerato is tiny and a scavenger, more or less, carno is a small game designed hunter and also not that big. You'd need something like an allo pack, or acro or larger to take on a stego properly I'd say at least.

[hardy dagger]

well because stego is the only big creature atm I usually see them brutalize the packs of ceras and deinos and such

keeps things in check to a degree

[keen plover]

If it was weaker, then it wouldn't have the chance to stand up against Carno & Cera. Unless you decided to make teno faster, which has its own set of problems.

[golden coral]

Considering ceras can still "vomit lock" a stego, I'd say cera is the one having far too much power in that matchup. Deinos can and do take on stegos, but they got designed to be a midtier hunter, and thus also struggles a little vs things too large to lunge, since they're not great at fighting.

[hardy dagger]

im pretty sure vomit lock got changed but it still only takes one tail swipe and the ceras gone

[golden coral]

I'd agree, if it wasn't for the potential issue. Consider this. If troodon and omni can so readily take on a stego despite being the best choice for defending the flanks and having reach, anything that lacks that reach will struggle even more.

[hardy dagger]

and cera is op rn from my understanding and will need to be adjusted

[golden coral]

A trike or diablo does not have half the ability to just swipe something on mount/dismount, so if stego is the "safe" option despite having that much reach and ability to just cover either side with no need to move, how would those two defend themselves against a pack of omnis/troodons?

Same applies to cera really, anything it can do to stego, it can do to anything slower than it, easier

[remote crow]

I hope stego will be set as Ai next patch

[hardy dagger]

rlly what your saying is balance in evrima right now is wack

[golden coral]

If dibble ends up slower than cera, you'll see ceras vomit lock it as well. Yes, it got changed, but it only really works if their target is faster. A slower target is still a sitting duck after the first vomit.

Since if you're slower, the cera can just wait the 45 seconds, then charge and vomit on every bite from there

Sure, you're no longer stuck vomit after vomit after vomit, but that only helps so much when you're still vomiting after one bite and the cera has the time and ability to wait the timer out

[golden coral]

Only on headshot, and if one of them dies, now they survive the headshot. So if you kill one, you kind of make it worse for yourself.

[hardy dagger]

maybe the only solution would be to nerf bacteria amount

to 2 vomits but even then you got a whole pack of ceras and they take turns

[dusky surge]

teno def ain't strong atm, i'm honestly surprised anyone thinks it is

[graceful swallow]

Not that I think its very powerful i just dont think its weak

[dusky surge]

i'd argue it's weak

[graceful swallow]

Maybe it could use more stamina pool or have a larger max size

[distant torrent]

teno needs to be able to kick and slam during vomitting and have a major buff to its tail slam. I’d even support a bit of a buff to its kick tbh too

[dusky surge]

thank you

really not feeling that the .exe link was good

[plucky aspen]

nope. i dont think so either

especially not when its in every channel

i think i got them all. but if you see more please let me know

[sweet lake]

Troodos is to fast and dus a lot to little dinos

[dusky surge]

what

[coarse blaze]

Troodon isn't that fast and can be run down, it also does a nice chunk but it's not alot of damage on it's own.

[cosmic pelican]

Stage 1 and 2 pounce do around 30 damage, stage 3 is somewhere around 60 iirc, so it really isnt much

[young panther]

i had a respectable 1v1 with a teno, caught him by suprise got the first good charge bit and eventualy won, cant say it was easy but it was realy satifying when i dropped him. 1v1 are dev possible with cera

[dusky surge]

the fact cera can consistently 1v1 tenos is pretty telling as to why no one plays it

For the cera, it's a fight for food

For the teno, it's a fight with a smaller carnivore not designed for hunting in a life or death scenario where if it loses, it literally just dies. The fact teno loses that so frequently is REALLY bad

it should be a 70/30 fight, teno favoured, at least

Atm, it's 50/50, if the teno is lucky

[young panther]

if any thing there speed is the only thing that annoys me. if there with a group they just keep chasing like they are the carnivores. its litteraly 0.1km faster then cera

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's terrible on the offense, so it's really not a big deal

run in a straight line against a teno and it's not going to be able to do anything except its weak bite

teno is in no place to be recieving nerfs atm

[young panther]

im not sure how much biteforce it has but its kinda scary knowing it can praticly tail ride you for ever. and i think there turn radius is pretty much on par with that of cera

[unborn iris]

If a teno just chased you and you ran out of stamina, you win that fight as cera every time.

[dusky surge]

yep

[unborn iris]

He just drained all his stamina and his damaging attacks use that stamina.

[dusky surge]

it can tailride you till its outta stam, in which case you can literally shred it

[young panther]

never played teno, dont know what his strenght and weaknesses are

[keen plover]

Even then, just use bushes and loop

They'll be off your tail

and it will take them a bit to get there, which at that point they've done no damage

[dusky surge]

swim and you immediately out-DPS it

[young panther]

wait the front ( bite attack) uses stam?

[keen plover]

nah

[dusky surge]

nope

it probably should, as it should for all creatures, but it doesn't atm

[young panther]

then what are the pros and cons?

[dusky surge]

wdym the pros and cons

[young panther]

because tbh because i never played teno and dont know what to expect from it, i think i got lucky when i had that 1v1

[young panther]

for playing teno

[dusky surge]

tenos pros is that it has a decent trot speed and swim speed and good angle coverage on attacks from behind, as well as stuns

its downsides is that it literally has nothing else going for it, its damage is constantly nerfed, its speed is mediocre, it has zero bleed res or damage res, it's far more costly on stam to play than anything with cera, etc

[unborn iris]

Play some teno then. Honestly what helped me the most in this game was playing everything. You figure out more on how to fight something by playing it than anything.

[keen plover]

Playing teno is one big negative experience

[dusky surge]

yea, it's bad

[unborn iris]

Teno is actually hard. If any dino can be called that.

[dusky surge]

essentially just a worse cera atm, just play cera if you wanna have fun with what teno offers

[keen plover]

Not that it's weak, but man the diets, megapacks you face

[dusky surge]

teno is hard, partially because it actually necessitates skill, partially because every patch it gets another shovel to the knees

[keen plover]

Either stay near SE and get your diets, never interacting with anyone.

Or head somewhere where players are and get run down and mauled

[young panther]

the huge stun with there tails always scare me

[dusky surge]

old teno was threatening to even larger groups if it knew what it was doing

now a single carno can shred it

[young panther]

and then they wombo-combo you aswell 💀

[dusky surge]

its one of the weaker stun moves in the game, carno charge far outclasses it

[keen plover]

Cera is the issue. I wish Teno could confidently avoid it

[dusky surge]

hell, even cera vomit is stronger than tail tbh

[young panther]

havent played carno in a big while either

[dusky surge]

carno is just miserable lol. If you don't have a group, get ready to fail

[young panther]

recently i play pachy with my friends who are new to the isle

[young panther]

in that 1v1 i made that teno vomit multiple times i think it realy helped

[keen plover]

There's also a vomit timer

[dusky surge]

yea, vomitlock just wins lol, i doubt the teno had much it could do

it was probably very low on stamina and blood due to the constant bleeding and vomiting

[keen plover]

If you try to play around the timer, Teno is pretty easy to drop

[dusky surge]

teno is too easy

[young panther]

if i remember right i was around 35% hp when i dropped him, it was realy scary cause i didnt know how much more i could take but my bleed was healing and i had better stam

[dusky surge]

i miss when it was a cool, imposing herbivore

[dusky surge]

oh you were more than fine in that case

could've taken a few more hits tbh

[young panther]

i faked him multiple times

[young panther]

sounds like you gonna be a para/maia player later on haha

[keen plover]

Teno population sky rockets when it can just outrun cera & face up to carno confidently (like letting it stun carno out of charge lol)

[dusky surge]

nah, para and maia probably gonna be fodderised tbh

i actually prefer playing carnivores, i just hate herbivores being food and nothing more

probably won't touch much of maia or para, too big for me, i like smaller animals

[young panther]

i cant wait for quatzle to come out

im realy interested in all the 1v1 interactions

[dusky surge]

i just want herbivores to be engaging again

i used to like playing teno before they nerfed it (again)

[young panther]

isnt teno then just unviable for run,fight and hide mnemonic?

[unborn iris]

Teno is fun for the challenge. It might be overnerfed, but when you are landing kicks and playing good with it it feels really strong.

[hardy dagger]

Something I just realized. Why is the cera 40km and the troodon 45km yet I am still getting ran down by ceras.

[stark knoll]

Cera has a lot of stamina

[tall bronze]

Sadly

[hardy dagger]

yuh but thats not even the issue. Hes just straightup faster than me despite having lower top speed

[stark knoll]

Might be hacking, or a subadult

Not sure how fast subs get

[hardy dagger]

they get faster than 40 wtf

[stark knoll]

Every species' speed peaks as a subadult then drops

[keen plover]

Cera's peak speed is at 100%

[stark knoll]

Hmmm

Not from what I remember but it's been a minute since I've played cera

[keen plover]

Cera & Carno both get their max speed at 100%

[hardy dagger]

Then why the hell is cera faster than troodon? max troodon runs at 45km and im pretty sure cera is either 39.8 or like 40.1 or smthin like that

is this just a developer oversight?

It even confuses me how young crocs are faster than full adult ones yet they cant swim faster than adults. How does speed even work in this game

[keen plover]

They were hacking

[keen plover]

The speed shown is land speed

Would be nice if the game showed extra stats like that

I do like the idea of them hiding the health bar though

[dusky surge]

So much better for preventing the death match mindset

It seems many of the changes to health and stam exist to dissuade that playstyle and encourage survival

Less damage when lower on health and stam, regen requiring longer time resting, health being obfuscated in exact percentiles

[obtuse ocean]

They gonna make us do less dmg when low ?

[dusky surge]

low on stam yea

there's also a wound feature that reduces damage when you get wounded

as well as other stats

i assume wounds are obtained by taking damage

[obtuse ocean]

Christ if the screw it up like pot, skill is litterly non exsitense. You can fight somethings that does everything correct, and the group im in does 10 mistakes but u still win. Because well he cant do anything

[dusky surge]

what?

[obtuse ocean]

You can fight something that does everything correct, but you win by numbers even with tons of mistakes.

[dusky surge]

that's how it works atm

[obtuse ocean]

Try pot, you win with ease. By actually beeing incredible bad at the game. Not that stam is main issue tho

Its that the dmg is so low, that you can do tons of mistakes

[dusky surge]

counterpoint, nothing about PoT is interesting to me

the objective is to dissuade needless PvP

the base damage of each animal isn't getting nerfed, the only thing that changes is your damage output when you're lower on stam and health

time to kill is still significantly faster than PoT

[obtuse ocean]

So skill is thrown out unless 1v1 ? Or whats the point, that i can do tons of mistakes in a fight ?

[dusky surge]

what are you even talking about

the game already favours groups heavily as it is

its not like this is suddenly making the game super group-sided

the game already is incredibly group sided

[obtuse ocean]

Even more with this, im fine group play. But i just hope its not me attacking a para as dilo. And i screw up and i just immidently start attacking again cus it only did 30% dmg on my health

[dusky surge]

i literally don't know where you're getting any of this from

[obtuse ocean]

What dont you get ?

[dusky surge]

why would the para do so little damage all of the sudden unless it has already wasted stam and taken a ton of damage

the damage of the animals aren't getting universally nerfed

[latent bay]

Why not dissuade needless PvP by adding alternative things to do besides PvP?

[dusky surge]

i mean, they're doing that too

[latent bay]

Like nesting was on the right track until it wasn't (you get screwed over trying to nest with zero reward)

[dusky surge]

mutations pass on through nesting, migrations exist now with Gateway

[latent bay]

We dont actually know what influence mutations have besides "no flat stat boosts to damage or health" and migrations just encourages movement, which i cant see how migrations would dissuade pvp

[obtuse ocean]

Thats the point, aslong as it hurts doing mistakes its ok i think. In pot, you can facetank something much bigger and dont even care. If you dont see the problem with this in group play i dont understand you.

[neon willow]

I think it actually punishes mistakes more. Look at the para's perspective. It's WAY bigger than dilo, normally if it's playing well id expect the para to win a fight against dilo.

Now, imagine the para is playing poorly, and wasting stamina. Because it's low on stamina, dilo gets some attacks in, and para starts being low on health and stamina. Para NEEDS that damage to kill dilo, but because it is low on health and stamina, it's output damage is reduced, making dilo more likely to survive and win (it punishes para for making excessive mistakes).

Or alternatively, imagine dilo playing poorly-- not bad enough to be outright killed by para, but just sloppy with stamina use and maybe got a tail hit or 2. Dilo does less damage than ever, making para a much harder target, and encouraging them to flee

That being said... I seriously doubt that an attack that normally does 500 damage (for example, easy number) is going to be so severely reduced that it won't be punishing mistakes. For example, I think it would be unreasonable for that 500 damage attack to do 100 damage at 0 stam and 10% hp

But you could argue that 400 or 450 damage would be more reasonable

[dawn falcon]

The fact that people think stamina being tied to damage output reduces the skill of pvp, when most of your pvp is both players swerving around each other like paper planes while spamming LMB, and getting hit with a ping spike, only to post it on a compilation of “isle kill counts” and pretend you’re skilled is beyond me.

[obtuse ocean]

Im all for that,if the para plays poorly or its some kind of skill gap. But if the para knows what its doing and the dilo screws up, gg. Either dead or out of that fight. Problem in games that are similar with stam use, is that you can destroy something bigger with just facetanking cus dmg is so low that you dont really care. You can just run in out and trade bites until its out of stam or dead. My point is that, i hope im gonna choose to fight 10 bad allos if im rex rather then 4 good ones.

[thin mantle]

Honestly I think it’s a really silly way to do it.
You don’t get to choose how often you engage in combat most of the time in game unless you’re hiding constantly and if anything, migrations are only going to make creatures more inclined to fight eachother rather than less

[neon willow]

Id argue that even rex should not be able to 10 v 1 an allo (mid tier) pack and survive, regardless of how good the allos are, unless they sit there afk.

The balance is that 10 player allo packs should not exist anyways.

[hasty coyote]

For those forced into combat, they can still heal after the fight. Any damage debuff they have with this system wouldn’t matter much because their health/stam is low in the first place.

For migrations: it’s going to make species interact more. Which can lead to fights, but making fights costly means they may just not bother with each other. Currently if an Omni sees a dryo and a pachy, they will likely chase and kill the dryo, then go for the pachy, or just go straight for the pachy. With systems to make combat risky, they are likely to instead avoid the pachy entirely and go for the dryo. This can help the game feel more alive without everyone going murder hobo on each other.

[keen plover]

I'd argue it makes solo players worse off, while making groups better

I get that they want to stop the amount of PvP, but I feel like there are too many changes coming

You're already punished for having low stamina.

• You can't run & use heavy attacks (and with the new stamina system, you might not be able to regen that well)
• Bleed is worse when lower on stamina

[thin mantle]

It honestly just seems like a giga buff to groups for no reason

[keen plover]

That's true. Its a buff to pack hunters

[thin mantle]

Like discouraging combat in a game like this also just…sorta doesn’t make sense considering just how often you’ll be having to fight

[keen plover]

If they also fixed tracking then lol

[thin mantle]

Whether it be defense, resource guarding, hunting, territory….etc

[keen plover]

Raptor pounces you once > can't avoid them and they find you on low stamina

[thin mantle]

That’s not deathmatch that’s just how the game is played

[thin mantle]

If you’re a slow enough or large enough animal they could also just straight up follow you either way

[keen plover]

Yeah

[thin mantle]

Like I’ve never understood the perspective that “deathmatch is a problem so therefor we should either make combat less fun or harder to do”

[keen plover]

Most of it was a map / food problem