balance-feedback-discussion

[graceful swallow]

Avoiding deino in rivers is pretty easy if you know where to drink even never using a glitch water spot, and ive personally never seen stegos fight eachother so i assume its uncommon, even played stego a few times always had friendly interactions.

[golden coral]

But stego can be baited and fought, to more or less success, and can't just escape into an untouchable biome if things turn against it. Deino you have to risk meeting due to water need (unless you just drink at specific spots, but the solution of just not ever interacting with deino is not ideal). Stego is by far more killable, troodons, omnis, ceras, tenos, and so on. While deino in the same position on land (close to a shoreline) can ignore all of those entirely, and even at 10% of health/blood left, it can just turn tail into the river and that's the end of the fight.

[slim dragon]

Avoiding stego is even easier
Just walk the other way

You don't even need to know the map by heart

[graceful swallow]

now theres a point I cant argue

[dusky surge]

literally stego is a walking billboard of do not engage

[graceful swallow]

I wish it were the other way around sometimes, where their main attack is nerfed to a point where its not super rare a stego gets hunted

[golden coral]

They can both be avoided, but a stego you can force into a fight, a deino you can not. And a stego you can fight, a deino is way harder to deal with.

[slim dragon]

eat grass and die

[graceful swallow]

True but i dont want them to be eat grass and never die

[slim dragon]

Good thing they're weak enough so they can die then

[golden coral]

The biggest issue there is that if you nerf stego, you either need to buff it later on to deal with the roster when larger things come on, or those things needs to be nerfed too. Or stego remains weak, and we just have the apexes be untouchable instead possibly.

You could downsize deino to 4T right now, and it'd do it's job vs all of the roster the same, but be more killable to the others, but then it will just fold to anything larger if it shows itself on land

[graceful swallow]

Only time ive ever seen a adult stego corpse, they are near a river and got too cocky around like 10 deinos or they discconnected lol

or around a cliff lmao

[golden coral]

Mostly because people are unneccesarily afraid of stegos I think, despite them only oneshotting on headshot for cera and teno, and omni/troodon being more than capable of baiting and juking

So it's more likely a response to the sheer damage potential, than the actual effectiveness of the stego in question

[slim dragon]

One shotting on headshot for cera... If cera doesn't have body buffs

[graceful swallow]

Ive heard the stegos tail hitbox its a lil too big and can ghost hit you while surrounding it and pouncing

[slim dragon]

That's just desync

[cosmic pelican]

Stegos hitbox is actually really tight

[graceful swallow]

I see

[golden coral]

Stego can hit you on mount/dismount, easier than the others (at least by a little), but then it has flank defense where you want to pounce onto it, so that makes sense. But it can still only swing on one side at a time, so it can be baited and tricked.

[graceful swallow]

So basically it can kill a group of 8 omins if it kills them all on the dismount if it times all of them perfectly?

[slim dragon]

Yes, that's the point
Now the stego has no other choice but to kill said 8 omnis if it wants to survive

It can't run away, hide or deter them

[golden coral]

Unless the omnis always dismount towards the stegos face, I think that area is out of reach at all times. But otherwise, yes, in theory at least, you could kill one at a time on dismounts. Of course, by the time you've killed a few, you're probably low on stamina and blood

[graceful swallow]

does make sense

[golden coral]

Also they can try it in pairs/groups so you only get one while the others add their damage/bleed and get off safely, especially if they're on opposite sides, since well, can only get one of them no matter what then

[graceful swallow]

Yeah I said that bc Ive seen stuff similar but not 8 ina row before

[golden coral]

Probably because that'd have to be a very lucky and smart stego and some rather predictable omnis at that, as well as them insisting on fighting on even after they've seen a few of the pack get killed

[distant torrent]

#balance-feedback message imagine wanting an easy grow on a dead server with a powerful playable where there’s no challenge or danger whatsoever

[dusky surge]

carnivores HAVE to be easier

i cannot live in a world where my apex carnis struggles

[distant torrent]

herbivores need to eat grass and die and apexes need to be easy to grow and maintain 💪

[mortal tundra]

@wheat forum I do agree that if they remove stegos, that they should remove deinos too or else they'll just swarm on land. I think they should leave both on and add rex, even if it's only after a few months after it's released so not as many people will want to play it. I don't like playing on officials where you can't kill people when you want or if you're not hungry, you get grows every 3 or 4 hours, or the other 10+ rules.

I know that lots of people will probably play as rexes, but if they're all on unofficials then everyone will just move to those, but most of them have rules. If they added rexes to officials and left stegos and deinos there might be more balance.

[slim dragon]

They'd still need to buff stegos if they want them to coexist with rex

[torn egret]

The problem comes from the fact that most of the roster nowadays is not playable anyways.
Herbis are very underpowered besides stego. And the carnivores are too prevalent because they are fundamentally more fun to play.
If the game makes carni more fun, then they should be able to sustain.

But we’ve had this talk a few times in the channel and I think the new map takes all this into consideration

[distant torrent]

making carnis more sustainable just because they’re fun is the worst possible dirty bandaid you could possibly put on the problem to hide it

[dusky surge]

exactly

[torn egret]

But that’s the thing. You can make them sustainable IF other Dino’s are played. One problem I foresee is making carnivores, ridiculously strong because they have to be able to compete with everything for food. That’s gonna make herbivores fall off the roster even more. And I think I may have misrepresented what I was trying to say, but herbivores need to be more fun. Pachys are great to play in so are tenos, but they struggle to kill, or even protect themselves and a lot of fights.

[dusky surge]

pachys are not great to play as, neither are tenos

playing as an animal that legitimately sucks at defending itself isn't fun

because they constantly get nerfed

tenonto used to be competent, once upon a time, now its tail literally just tickles opponents and the only attack it has that does any solid damage is an extremely niche kick that is the hardest move to land in the game

[torn egret]

But that’s part of the problem, right? Because the fighting mechanics as they are now it’s very one sided. Herbis must kill to survive, but I’d like to see their combat based on stunning or fracturing to escape.

[distant torrent]

I want tail slam to give brutal fractures to playables that weigh less than it. *especially omni. if a teno can manage to hit an omni with a tail slam, it deserves a major reward for that impossible feat

[dusky surge]

some herbis should kill to survive, like diablo, or tenento, or stego

[torn egret]

I think the game puts too much emphasis on kill. Putting members of a pack out of commission is huge. Make combat riskier for carnivores and herbis get played more.

[dusky surge]

pachy should obliterate omnis into death

[torn egret]

I kinda disagree with the kill to survive mentality. If a stego hits you once, you don’t wanna keep going for it if you live. Teno should be incentivized to run after stunning (if it’s fighting a solo or small pack of Dino’s)
And pachy can be the same. But the problem comes down to the fact that once a fight starts, it’s always too the death. I think balancing carni with stuns, breaks etc from herbivores can make the game more fun.

The game rn is all about how much better you are at brawling

[dusky surge]

if i'm a cera, and a stego swipes at me, i should die

every time, without fail

the fact that cera lives atm is honestly stupid

i don't think making herbis struggle to kill makes the game more fun for anyone but carnis

which further feeds into the "just play carni, they're cooler and more fun" mindset

some herbis should absolutely be on the team of absolutely slaughtering you for the crime of getting too close

[torn egret]

But you’re missing what im saying. There is no real penalty for a failed hunt. Stego should be scary af, but because nothing else is, there is no reason to play anything else.

I want carnivores to suffer

[dusky surge]

carnivores do suffer, a death

they should suffer more death than they do, tbh

[torn egret]

But I want people to understand that failing to kill a target should not mean, I better just try to hurt it as much as possible.

Herbis need to be able to escape after a fight, or be able to discourage things from finishing the hunt

If a cera gets hit by a pachy and breaks a leg, pachy should just book it. Sure, kill it if you want, but if herbis can fight back, then the stego issue wouldn’t be there

But everyone plays to kill, not survive. At least that’s how it feels

Stego is the strongest defender and it’s damage is ok I think. But that forces carnivores to kill everything else. That’s why herbis are underplayed

[dusky surge]

what

how does stego having strong damage make herbis underplayed

herbis are underplayed because they suck

no herbi is in a good spot atm tbh

[winter iris]

Another reason for which herbis are played less than carnivores is that, at the end of the day, you can put all the effort in developing wonderful herbis but the thrill of the hunt as a carnivore is more fun. Then, of course, there are people who prefer the herbi play style , but that is not as the average player likes to play , in my opinion

[dusky surge]

i mean, if herbis weren't garbage, they'd be played more

[torn egret]

Literally proving my point. Stego is strong. But they overshadow every other herbi.
SO. make combat for herbis fun. Make it not about the kill for them

[winter iris]

That’s for sure

[dusky surge]

but teno is nerfed to a point where it can barely handle one carno, and dies instantly to two, pachy can't even deal with a single cera and dryo, hypsi and stego STILL are not remotely close to feature complete

[winter iris]

In U4, if I’m not wrong, everyone was playing pachy because it was the most efficient hunter haha

[torn egret]

That’s what I’ve been tryna say… but everone keeps thinking I want carnis to be stronger lol.

[dusky surge]

the combat would be fun if herbis could actually do damage

[torn egret]

Herbis should not be winning fight by killing. They should win by incapacitating the hunter

[dusky surge]

tenonto should, stego should, diablo should

if a carnivore chooses to retreat, they should do so. If they choose to continue the fight, as many carnis often do, they should die

[winter iris]

I liked fighting tenos as carno before the update. Haven’t played this update much tbh and never had the chance to fight tenos. Are they much worse?

[dusky surge]

like how dondi said, in a future update, being below 50% HP will outright reduce the amount of damage you can do

[torn egret]

There’s no incentive to give up.

[dusky surge]

and there likely will never be unless something is actually on the line

[torn egret]

That might fix a lot of issues tbh. Didn’t see that

[winter iris]

On this I don’t fully agree. For example as a carno if you miss a couple of rams you’re probably so low on stam that the best option is a retreat

[dusky surge]

good luck retreating with that stam lol. Carno is designed so that retreating is never an option, because the moment you charge, you lose vital stam you could use to back out, because carno is terribly designed atm

carno is literally designed as an all-in predator, it cannot back out because its stam will not allow it

[torn egret]

But that’s carno, which I think is fine as is beside minor tweaks.
Carnivores need to be punished just as hard in a fight.

[winter iris]

Hehe true, I mean retreat when you can ofc. Otherwise it’s just better to try and bite as much as you can haha

[dusky surge]

i think death should be a legitimate concern when facing off against a more brutal herbi

if you continue your assault, you die. Herbis should not be non-lethal

[winter iris]

Agreed. I think , especially with current omni pounce, the main issue is bleeding for carno (which is too weak) and maybe ram takes a bit too much to activate. Other than that is probably almost fine

[torn egret]

My problem still stems to other carnivores. Carno is balanced by crazy stam usage and over bleeding imo.
But raptors? Have enough of them and it’s over anyways. Cera? Dead cera makes the rest of pack strong af.
For the Dino’s that can’t all in, they need to be forced to end fights if they get hurt.

[winter iris]

Agreed. On the other hand it’s also very true that many people that play , for example, pachy complain about being killed by a c’era or carno but simply because they did not retreat after a fracture but tried to kill the opponent. That’s just the wrong way to play pachy tbh

[dusky surge]

pachy complains because it sucks against cera or carno

it's genuinely awful at dealing with them

[torn egret]

Like, why play a herbivore and demand to kill every animal that attacks you?
Make the fractures more likely, make stuns a thing.
Maybe introduce a stam drain when concussed or something. Arguing for herbis to kill makes the carni problem worse

Some herbis should kill like stego, Ava etc, but pachy? Hypsi? Dryo?
Really??

Give them the ability to escape or cripple attackers

[dusky surge]

how can you make fractures more likely, and stuns make killing SOOOO much easier

[winter iris]

Probably, but people now also have a misconception of pachy that, I think, have developed in previous updates when pachy was super strong and could face and kill pretty much everything with minimum risk. I think that one wasn’t the pachy that the devs wanted in game actually….maybe I’m wrong though

[torn egret]

Stop tryna make every herbi kill. That’s just as big of a problem.

[dusky surge]

stuns are absolutely amazing if you want to slaughter everything

[torn egret]

Make the stun so things can run away.

[dusky surge]

that's not how they'll use it

the stun is infinitely better as a killing tool, U6 pachy proves that

[torn egret]

Blame player base sure. But that proves the point I’m making. People want to kill. And only reward that

[dusky surge]

making it that herbis CAN'T kill makes them less fun by proxy

no one wants an animal that merely gives lethal opponents a suggestion to leave. If they continue to attack even after greivously injured, forget running, beat them to death

[torn egret]

But prey shouldn’t have to kill to live. Many examples in nature today where prey will prioritize running vs killing

[dusky surge]

force carnivores to assess their opportunities, not run in fearless of death as a consequnce

[torn egret]

That’s the problem. It’s ONLY death.

[dusky surge]

sure, but some prey should obliterate carnivores

stego should slaughter omnis

[torn egret]

Like the big prey. Stego etc that’s fine. I’m not arguing that.

[dusky surge]

diablo should melt ceras who dare think it an easy mark

[torn egret]

Look, some Dino’s are more dangerous than others. You are only talking about herbis that should kill everone.

[winter iris]

I think I get your point. But I see a huge problem here.
I think your view would be more in line with nature, where some herbis are really dangerous to hunt. Problem is that in nature almost all herbis behave and think differently from carnivores. In this game the brain of every player is a human brain focused on having fun. Hence making fractures more likely would basically mean that herbis become the most efficient killing machines in game. For example in previous updates (like two updates ago) teno was really efficient in hunting carno down, and most tenos play style was really aggressive for that reason and you could also see a spike in teno videos on YouTube for that reason probably (same thing with Utah in the pastor carno in previous update)

[torn egret]

I am asking that smaller Dino’s need the chance to run

[torn egret]

I agree w that

But that’s part of the problem too

[dusky surge]

that's fine, but if the carnivores aren't willing to retreat, the herbis have to be prepared to beat down

because you're going off the ideas that all carnis will give up when greivously injured, when this simply is not true

they will fight till the bitter end, so the herbis have to as well

[torn egret]

That’s why you introduce things that make them back off. More breaks, stuns, anything

[dusky surge]

if a carno chooses to retreat to avoid further damage from my tenonto, that's fine, he should live, but should he consider to continue the fight, he should die

[dusky surge]

a break and a stun won't be a deterrent if they don't actually stop him attacking

a minor inconvenience at most

you underestimate the stubborn nature of carnivore players

[slim dragon]

Pachy is proof carnis don't back down when heavily injured, even after being stunned and with 2 broken legs and a broken spine

[dusky surge]

they will NOT give up until they are 10 feet under

[torn egret]

Bro, you and I are thinking on 2 different lines of though.
I’m asking for things to be added to stop a carni from chasing.

Not deter

Just stop

[dusky surge]

add as many things as you like, but they'll keep doing it

also if i can stop a carnivore dead in its tracks, that means its open, and cannot defend itself

making it an easy target to kill

[slim dragon]

There are several reasons why carnis never give up

1. Your life isn't worth much in The Isle, a few hours of afking in a bush at worst
2. Dinos usually have hunger times too short to be able to abandon a hunt and live

[dusky surge]

you can't beat player mentality, that's not how game design works

players will commit to whatever they deem important

[torn egret]

Blame the players for a garbage experience idk what to say at this point. I want herbis to be more fun and have mechanics that help them in fights

[dusky surge]

regardless of how many roadblocks you try to put in their way

if i am able to stunlock a carni so long that they cannot hope to pursue me, why not just... use that window of opportunity to get in some extra damage and kill the carni for good

an opportunity to escape is also an opportunity to double down on aggression in this game

that's no one's fault but the mindset of players

i don't advocate for it, but it is an unavoidable element

it's a sandbox, you can NEVER defeat the greatest nemesis to your intended designs, player freedom

the level of agency players are given is a blessing and a curse. It makes the game more engaging with less stuff, on one hand, but on the other, it means they will break ANY rules you try to give them

[torn egret]

So many reworks are possible tho. Don’t copy and paste stuns to herbis like teno has rn, make them more unforgivable. That’s all it would take. Stun a carno as a pachy and make it have a timer where it can’t run full speed or has slower build up.
Blame player freedom all you want. But giving up balancing makes the problems worse.

[dusky surge]

which would make it SO much more vulnerable to further attacks

that's a huge opening for me to double down and apply more damage, since the carno can't escape me

on top of fractures, it's a dead man walking

[torn egret]

Still the problem of herbis can kill everything. If a carno gets stunned and whacked a few times that should not kill it. Giving everything more damage sucks for balance

[dusky surge]

you would literally need to completely butcher pachy's already obnoxiously low damage for this to work

and even then, stuns would act as a safety net to apply more and more damage, like in U6. Despite pachy having low damage on basically all attacks, it still killed EVERYTHING that wasn't a stego and deino, simply because it could fracture and stun them, giving it openings to make an otherwise low damage number VERY significant, as the opponent could not counterattack

i don't even really disagree with the idea of herbis being less "kill everything" mindset, i just am aware it is impossible when you account for player freedoms and priorities

[torn egret]

Imagine this.
Ignore damage for a min.
The problem still stems from players trying to kill.
If something gets knocked around and can’t chase, then a herbi should run.
Once again you can blame players, but ability to escape is not ability to kill.
But this game makes everything kill focused. That’s why players do it.

[dusky surge]

but if i can run, i can also fight in that same opening

like, there's nothing stopping me from doubling down

you give players an opening, they will seize it

[torn egret]

Once again, mechanics in this Game Center on damage vs abilities.

[dusky surge]

and what's the best way to ensure that big mean carni never bothers you again?

you get rid of it for good

[torn egret]

But that’s part of the problem. It’s again, kill kill kill. If a carnivore fails a hunt, the consequences could be death, but it shouldn’t always be because of a forced fight. If a carno can’t run, it can still bite, so maybe the herbis will run and get out of line of sight.

There are ways to balance fights without killing everybody

[dusky surge]

HOW though

literally every way you've described doubles as an open window for doing more damage

unless you literally design it that herbis cannot possibly apply lethal damage, they will always find a way to kill

[torn egret]

And maybe you missed it, but I want the fight to end because of a mechanic like a long stun or break.
Cut damage back. Make rebuffs more common from herbi attacks.

[dusky surge]

more stuns + more breaks = more vulnerable carni = easier kills

don't matter how low your damage is if you can constantly pack on the stuns

[torn egret]

There can be timers, or limited stacks

There are ways to limit it

[dusky surge]

U6 pachy had that. Never stopped it

[torn egret]

But it’s a lot to test

[slim dragon]

I think stunning on fracture would actually achieve "break and run" gameplay for pachy
If you break a carni's face or leg, it stuns them and gives you the opportunity to run away
But you cannot stun it again, so staying to fight puts you in grave danger

[dusky surge]

this would be nice

pachy should be a "break and run" herbivore

[slim dragon]

But it also keeps damage high enough so the carni doesn't want to pursue it either

[dusky surge]

tenonto should be a "i will obliterate you for entering my personal space bubble"

[torn egret]

Thank god you can articulate ideas better than me lol.
But that’s an amazing suggestion.

[distant torrent]

I desire for pachy to break and obliterate things around its own size like omni

[torn egret]

Fair

[slim dragon]

It's actually not mine
It's from that wonderful person you've been arguing with for the past hour

[dusky surge]

for real. I want dilo to literally be murdered by pachy

yea i came up wiith that idea hiiii

like i said, i'm not against it

the whole "less murder" thing

but in the case of some animals (tenonto)

they should smack your skull in with fury and with force

[torn egret]

And as you can see I’m not great with giving ideas out.
But I think we kept getting stuck on damage and how stuns make things killable etc. at least I did

[dusky surge]

diablo should literally gore the carno that dares approach it

[torn egret]

I hope this convo hasn’t seemed like I’m crapping on everyone’s distaste for the power balance in the roster.
But I hope that more mechanics vs more ways to kill will balance the game out

[slim dragon]

The problem is even though pachy is a "break and run" animal, it shouldn't need to run from everything
An omni, or simply a troodon, should obviously die against a pachy

[distant torrent]

I also desire for diablo to take little to no damage from frontal assaults (taking weight into account ofc. it’d make no sense for it to tank a bite to the face from a literal rex)

[dusky surge]

i want there to be balance between
"herbi that flees"
"herbi that fights and flees"
"herbi that goddamn KILLS you"

a triceratops should not let you off with a warning. You are going straight to hell if you dare face it unprepared

[torn egret]

But the problem is that there are only Dino’s that flee and kill. Stego and Gali mostly. Once again my inability to explain that the problem stems from the fun Dino’s kill the easiest. That’s why stego is so strong, for now until apex’s join, and very few other herbis get played.

So, sorry if I wasn’t able to explain my main complaint @dusky surge lol

[dusky surge]

stego ain't even that strong tbh

like honestly, i fail to see a reason any herbivore is worth playing over a carnivore equivilaant

[torn egret]

It’s balanced kinda. Cera and raptor have the best chance

[slim dragon]

Honestly stego is the dino that fits the most in the "herbi that goddamn KILLS you" category

[dusky surge]

it's to the point that i would argue picking herbivore is objectively the wrong choice

[torn egret]

Yeah. Herbis need to be fun outside of combat too

[dusky surge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/568284971337252866/1155896915267956798/caption.gif

[dusky surge]

partially the reason why they love killing so much

the hell do you DO as a herbi 95% of the time]

it's got like, literally nothing going on

the map sucks, its food spawns in the same hotspots, it doesn't have to go anywhere or do anything, most of the action happens in centre and nowhere else

migrations and gateway alone would increase herbivore gameplay by the fact they have more goddamn things to DO

[slim dragon]

I wonder if playing on a good map can fundamentally change how players engage with the game

[torn egret]

Hope the new map adds exploration fun, changing food spawns etc.
kinda funny how we can blame the map for 90% of our problems

[dusky surge]

literally true

[distant torrent]

I loved herbi nesting before diets were nerfed to only 100%

[torn egret]

Honestly, I think it would be fun to test a procedurally generated map, or maps to change every couple weeks. I doubt that’s gonna be really possible. It would be a cool thing to test.

[slim dragon]

Diets can only be filled to 100%
Diets only activate once they are filled at 100%
Nothing wrong here

[torn egret]

Do you think it might be worth adding a small or partial bath at 50% full?

Just because you don’t fully eat something, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get at least some benefits from it.

[distant torrent]

only have 99% diet and can’t get that 1% to activate it? sucks to suck buddy

[latent bay]

Triceratops should passively have doom music playing in the background whenever it enters combat instead of regular combat music

[slim dragon]

I don't need to take a bath

[torn egret]

Buff^ lmfao

Not even gonna edit it, it’s too funny

[slim dragon]

Yes I think buffs should activate earlier
The way it works currently is so clunky

[torn egret]

It’s also annoying that sometimes I will start filling up a empty slot instead of filling up when you already have

[slim dragon]

It is

[coarse blaze]

Yes please this is all I want

Not sure if this will actually be implemented but God it would be funny

[dusky surge]

i want diablo to not be a pushover please for the love of god

im so sick of herbis being bad

[coarse blaze]

Are these Isle related? Like these sorts of concepts, I see them often enough

[dusky surge]

that is almost certainly ARK if I recall correctly

[coarse blaze]

Damn because I was gonna say

[dusky surge]

the 12 ton weightclass seems pretty telling

[coarse blaze]

12 tons of muscle would be a bit much considering steg is 6

[dusky surge]

i don't really care enough about ARK to tell but like

i'm pretty sure i've seen that artstyle before

[coarse blaze]

I don't know what ARK is enough to know in general, I just have seen these sheets for a few of the same dinosaurs so I was never too sure.

[wind lynx]

yea thats the isle haha

idk where ARK came from

[coarse blaze]

I can't tell if I'm being joked on

[golden coral]

Yeah, I think thats old Isle dossier things

[wind lynx]

u can find all of them on the isle wiki

under the respective dino

[coarse blaze]

I feel like Diablo will weigh at most 5 tons

But my guess is maybe 4.5

[wind lynx]

diablo will weigh as much as a neutron star

[coarse blaze]

To to have a dinosaur remain on Officials for deinos to whine that they can't grab will be wonderful

[golden coral]

I think dibble in evrima is about carno sized at most?

[coarse blaze]

it's smaller in stature

[dusky surge]

my man it gonna weigh like 1.5 tons lol

[wind lynx]

yea i hope lunge wont work on ceratopsians

[coarse blaze]

Don't say that

[dusky surge]

it's 100% getting lunged by deino

[wind lynx]

except like ava n proto

[dusky surge]

it is in the same weight class as tenonto and cera

we have confirmation of such

[coarse blaze]

I hate this

[dusky surge]

WIP numbers but you get the idea

[coarse blaze]

I can't see that weighing so little

[golden coral]

Visual does not always mean weight xD

[wind lynx]

seems abt right

[dusky surge]

how it's literally ain't that big

a real diablo is around 1.4 tons

[coarse blaze]

But baby stegs are like that size and weigh 2 tons

[wind lynx]

they r dense

[coarse blaze]

And I was hopeful this would be dense too

[golden coral]

Stegos are actual cubes, so it makes sense :p

[dusky surge]

deinos look smaller than carnos and can still drag them, that doesn't make it okay

[latent bay]

Aren't there ones of those for the hypers and other strains tho? And one for shant that looks eerily like Legacy shant?

[coarse blaze]

Man you got a point

I just want anything, I just want a herbi tank that'll stay

[golden coral]

1.5T is quite dense, for an animal that is short and stocky as it were

[coarse blaze]

Give me anky already

[dusky surge]

there does not exist a single herbivore or carnivore on the roadmap that can resist a deino lunge, sorry

maia, the biggest herbi on the roadmap, still isn't even 3 tons

[latent bay]

excluding Tyrannosaurus and Triceratops

[coarse blaze]

I really don't know how something as big as deino can just be around with what we have, I know Gateway will make them far and between but it out-classes everything

[wind lynx]

i want ceratopsians to have a little lunge resistance

[dusky surge]

god no

[coarse blaze]

won't it be the only apex then on officials?

[wind lynx]

idk what that will look like

[dusky surge]

i am not a fan of stun resist

[wind lynx]

i mean ur lunging at a horn face idk

unless they r drinking sideways

[latent bay]

Aint that basically what fast knockdown speeds are tho

[dusky surge]

no, that's a universal change

not a stun resist

[latent bay]

Ohh wait knockdown speeds are the same for every playable?

[dusky surge]

yes

every animal got their knockdown time halved

[latent bay]

I seriously thought they weren't

Ignore me then

[dusky surge]

because screw tenonto specifically

[coarse blaze]

No no it makes perfect sense for teno to fall for the same amount of time as omni

[latent bay]

And it makes perfect sense for that omni's face to not be sticking out behind it after a single slam

[dusky surge]

no, my issue is that knockdowns were nerfed across the board in the same patch that tenonto's tailslam damage was butchered

so that tenonto just loses most fights with the stupid raptor

because omni also just doesn't care if it misses

[latent bay]

Omni feels like it has almost as many issues as carno lol

[coarse blaze]

I know the person I practiced with yesterday was a pretty good teno and taught me how to 1v1 a carno pretty well but I still can't do omnis as teno

They were really good at hitting them off the dismount but I genuinely just bled out because I couldn't get those hits

[latent bay]

That'd be because teno can't do omnis

[coarse blaze]

I think bleeding out is a fine mechanic but omni can bleed out almost anything with tap-pouncing which I do not like

if you couldn't latch from the front/back and had pounce punishment I'd be fine with it

[latent bay]

Give it ramp-up bleed that has been suggested an innumerable amount of times

[coarse blaze]

And I feel like most people who defend omni just really, really like omni and don't want it to be changed in anyway to make it harder

[sonic flame]

Those are the legacy dossiers

[dusky surge]

as i have heard

[latent bay]

@alpine plover so real question right. How scary do you think kicked in the face by an ostrich would be

Ignore the like 7 edits I made there

[dusky surge]

galli bleed is funny

[latent bay]

Indeed

But its only funny when you're getting attacked by just gallis

I've only experienced that once

Every single other time they're mixing with omnis

[coarse blaze]

I just want

[hasty coyote]

And pachy, it relied on cc a lot too. Now it’s ability to apply cc is incredibly limited and the cc it does apply is even less.

[coarse blaze]

And the hope they keep this as one of the patterns from Legacy

[dusky surge]

but don't worry, carno is fine because its nuke charge still nukes things with or without knockdowns

[coarse blaze]

Ugh and if the tail works like a bush that'd be amazing like in the concept

If we're keeping deino I'd love a swamp-herbi apex so bad

[halcyon elk]

Deinocheirus

[coarse blaze]

Pardon?

[halcyon elk]

Deinocheirus is in the roster

[coarse blaze]

OH I'm a goober I thought you said Deinosuchus, I think they're both planned yeah? Deinocheirus and Theri?

[slim dragon]

Deinocheirus isn't herbivore

[dusky surge]

erm actually deinocheirus is an omnivore

[halcyon elk]

True it is an omnivore.

[coarse blaze]

Can't wait for it to only have elite fish and frogs as it's protein

[halcyon elk]

Likely elite fish and schooling fish are the only meat on its diet tho. With plant being the majority

[coarse blaze]

Let it eat baby deinos 👏

[slim dragon]

Seeing how big cheirus is, I can see it nomming on smaller dinos as well

[halcyon elk]

That kinda sucho job.

[coarse blaze]

I think it should be more things jobs

Just scoop em up

[slim dragon]

I want cheirus and sucho to have a symbiotic relationship too
Or rather a "tolerate each other" one

[halcyon elk]

Fair. Then again deinocheirus is like 7-8 tons.

[coarse blaze]

"Tolerate" like deinos tolerate beipis?

[dusky surge]

both are shallow waders, honestly, deino should barely worry about them

[slim dragon]

Tolerate like when they see a deino or a spino they gang up to make it pay tax

[coarse blaze]

I'm honestly fine bullying deinos out of the shallows, sitting on the water's surface puts them in far more danger really from other deinos.

[dusky surge]

i love how, for some reason, deinos just don't kill beipis that often

something about the duck just makes their savage apex players soothe their nerves

[halcyon elk]

Baby deinos do have to worry about getting swallowed whole. And deinocheirus will likely just slap the goofy out of any deino that tries it.

[slim dragon]

I didn't have that experience sadly

Deinos tried to kill me like anything else

[coarse blaze]

I think because they just give lines really, I know they got organs but it's really small. They're harder to catch than elite fish and from what I've been told by other deinos is "Don't kill the ducks, they make the water look safe"

Which I've both been baited and baited people into the water as beipi so it can work

[slim dragon]

I remember when I and another adult beipi have been attacked by a juvie carno
We retreated into water
And the carno thought following us was the best idea ever

But there was no deino
Just two beipis with claws

[coarse blaze]

I watched a little beipi 3 call a carno to the water's edge, the carno got the beipi but I grabbed the carno.

[dusky surge]

the mighty carnotaurus when presented with a small animal (prey)

[slim dragon]

That's probably what they were thinking

[coarse blaze]

I still think beipi and teno have some of the nicest skin sets, sound design and models/animations

[dusky surge]

carnivore players are legit a different breed, if only herbivores were in a good enough spot to actually humble them

[coarse blaze]

I know beipi is newer but teno isn't as new

[dusky surge]

my fave model, skins and sound all goes to troodon

[coarse blaze]

Granted teno's one skin goes hard

[dusky surge]

and animations

honestly i just like troodon a great deal

[coarse blaze]

I think troodons pounce looks alittle silly but I think that's just because it's a pounce

[dusky surge]

i feel that the z walk should've been the goddamn sneaky loony toons walk instead of the boring generic walk

why did everyone have to say it was bad, the new one is so much worse

me when the fictionalised 60kg dinosaur has an animation that expresses personality (this simply cannot stand)

[slim dragon]

Meanwhile carno eats like an anime villain

[coarse blaze]

While practicing yesterday it really put into perspective just how much stamina cera has

[halcyon elk]

Ngl I wouldn't mind if diablo on its head during its dueling stance you take about 25% of the damage you get dealt. Specifically on the head.

Body is normal but you can't get stunned or slammed

[coarse blaze]

Do we have previews of the dueling?

[halcyon elk]

But normally head is 50% damage dealt.

[coarse blaze]

I wish more dinosaurs got sparring, it's a lot more engaging and immersive.

[halcyon elk]

Iirc all ceratopsids are getting it.

[halcyon elk]

This but much slower.

[dusky surge]

look at him go

[coarse blaze]

That side-stepping looks so silly

I was pachys to be able to sparr and head-butt one another

In Jurassic Park evolution 2 the carnotaurus' head-butt one another too which looks pretty silly but would be neat to have.

[halcyon elk]

It's cuz its supposed to be much slower.

[coarse blaze]

This bit, can't find a GIF of it.

[coarse blaze]

That would make sense, the guy is going

but the movement seems so sick really

[halcyon elk]

It looks cool just a bit silly going at Mach 5.

[coarse blaze]

Man just zooming sideways wouldn't be ideal to see in-game for sure

[halcyon elk]

Oh yea 100%

[coarse blaze]

I just wish all the dinos had special interaction animations, I know that's a lot to ask for but maybe further down the line. I know they've mentioned wanting more idle animations but interactions might be rougher to pull-off.

[frail bobcat]

@alpine plover bro what?

[alpine plover]

Wrong chad

Chat

[frail bobcat]

I noticed

[alpine plover]

Lol was suppose to be overwatch

[golden coral]

@finite violet They should, as a matter of fact, they should be able to one shot a cera, teno, even a carno, on a body shot honestly, if not with direct damage then with the resulting internal bleed.

[finite violet]

Why

In what world is that even remotely fair to non-stego players

[cosmic pelican]

Id rather ask the question why would the small game hunter or the corpse bully try to take on a 6 ton tank and expect to win

[golden coral]

How is it not fair that a very large creature can one-shot the small, barely mid tier? Do you imagine a rex would not one shot a cera if it gets its jaws on it?

[torn egret]

I think that realistically, most fights would be over in the matter of moments in head on fights. We all complain about the stego being super strong (which it is because of the current roster and that tail swing is ridiculous) but in comparison or a Rex to a cera, then why not let cera one shot an Omni? Or carno 1 shot pachy?
Stego is a tank, like the Diablo will be and should be. The problem is that there is no counter to a large portion of the roster. Cera is super nimble for its size, yet doesn’t get any real benefits for it. 1 swing and you already risk bleeding out, even if you time the swing and bite in, the stego can immediately swing again and headshot anything that jumps it.
The only way to take down a tank of a Dino is with numbers. I’ve kinda learned this while chatting in this channel, but people put too much emphasis on 1v1 fights. A smart pack of cera can wreck a stego or 2. Or a group of raptors can do the same.
But you can’t nerf stego swing now, because of the new map and Dino’s coming out. It would have to be “rebuffed” when gateway comes out.

I think combat is so varied rn because everything is damage based. Weight vs biteforce etc.
what would you all think about individual health pools for each body part?
No reason a stego should take 10+ hits to the head and be ok. Same goes for every Dino. A good attack should cripple or kill most Dino’s (depending on dmg type size difference etc)
Make combat a legit terror for everyone

[finite violet]

THIS

[hasty coyote]

About the hp for body parts:
That’s why we have damage multiplier zones. Headshots on most dinos deal 1.5 damage, stego takes 2x and pachy takes 0.75x. While tail hits deal reduced damage, and practically 0 damage at the tail tip. Having different hp pools for each limb would be incredibly hard to keep track of at best, and broken on some dinos at worst.

[golden coral]

I'd say it depends on the size and power difference, for what should one shot something else. Cera isnt sufficiently more powerful than omni perhaps. Even carno isn't after all. But at some point it just becomes strange that something comparatively small and "weak" survives a full attack from the much larger thing. And diablo will probably be "tanky", but that depends on how we define it. It, apparently, weighs around 1.5T, so like teno, but with the benefit of a shield for a face (though I imagine troodons, omnis, and ceras will wreck a dibble pretty easily, since they can wreck a stego after all). Also as Rapdex said, we have body multipliers. Stego takes double damage on head, while I imagine dibble might take reduced, like pachy, and most takes 1.5 on headshot. But if you do make combat much more lethal, you'd have things oneshotting a lot more. By all rights, deino and stego would oneshot everything, including each other, on the roster as it stands right now.

[hasty coyote]

Like, should pachy be able to 1-shot Omni with a ram to the head instead of just dealing massive damage and head fracture? Should it be able to kill a carno in a few headshots? Should pachy and ceratopsians be immune to dying to headshots?

[golden coral]

So while we could make combat harsher, I don't know if that'd be neccesarily good, at least not depending on the time and investment for a playable, compared to how easy it would be to lose it, and to what, in comparison. Should a rex, trike, or stego one shot a carno or smaller on body shot. Yes, most likely. Should the smaller thing only require a few hits in return, probably not, due to time and investment differences, and numbers and all.

Though I do imagine a rex will oneshot a stego if it lands the big crunch on it, but I also expect stego to have some way to prevent rex from doing that in the first place.

[torn egret]

Gonna be like 3 posts so bear w me,

Ok, so apparently I had a bad word in them and nothing went through 😐

So retrying lol

[torn egret]

Damage multiplier:
Great if everything did similar damage and has similar attacks. But realistically, if I bit the base of a tenos tail, it should bleed out more than the damage it does to the overall pool of health. Adding damage pools to the body parts also rewards good aim. If a carno gets its leg shredded by a stego or cera, then it's movement could be affected. By adding in a pool of health that is either part of the overall hp, and/or seperate for mechaic purposes, can make gameplay more dynamic. Pachys and carnos hit things for a living. So it makes sense they may have a different multiplier for damage resistant based on type.
I think there are realistically 3 types of damage in the game. piercing/slashing, bludgeoning, and bleed. Each dino/dino part should be different. But balanced gameplay does not mean everything is the same.
More hitboxes means more work and more calculation of course. But everything has a weakness and strength anyways irl.

[torn egret]

Short answer, yes and no. Some dinos should be more resistant to different damage types, and some dinos should have an edge over others in a 1v1 matchup. Cera vs carno is crazy, because a cera cant facetank without a body. But a pachy should be able to stun a carno to be able to get away, versus killing the carno.

[torn egret]

In order to have "Balanced gameplay" you need to make combat dummy complex.
I think giving dinos the ability to reverse, sidestep, etc should be across the board. obviously a troodon or omni sidestep should be different to a stego or diablo.
But dynamic fights are the closest to balancing you cc an get.
A rex should be able to oneshot headshot most dinos, but that doesnt mean it should be easy.

I like complex, but it makes it hard to balance. So many what ifs, and how about's to deal with

[golden coral]

I think fracture already is it's own value, hence why cera takes more hits to break than carno for a pachy on some parts

But the idea of applying bleed and fracture as their own values, or multipliers for the various hitboxes isn't a bad idea, it could be interesting, giving armor for one thing but not for the other as well

[torn egret]

I think pachy and teno are so underwhelming rn because combat for herbi is, "I need to kill it cause I can't run".
I believe that to balance the game more, herbis should be encouraged to escape more than fight.
Adding pools of health can be a huge help for them as well, since a big tail bite from a bigger dino is not that affected by a reduced multiplier to overall health.

Tail damaged? Maybe balance issues or harder to turn.
Body broken, stam regen is hurt.
Head concussed, slower atk speed and dmg dealt.
With so many options to make the game balanced, it becomes a nightmare to make

[golden coral]

I'm not sure how your health pools would be different from just a changed multiplier to specific parts of the body? Aside from applying multipliers for fracture and bleed as well, which would be interesting.

[torn egret]

Just cause I destroyed your tail, doesn't mean you should die.
Some part damage should be part of/affecting overall hp. Head & body.
While legs and tail may not be lethal but debilatating. At some point, if I bite the tenos tail, the damage it does in inconsequential, but it still stacks bleed etc.

Head chomped by a cera? #dead lol Bite to the leg, ow.

Hope I'm able to get what I'm saying out right lol

Like a pachy 1v1 a raptor should be dependant on who hits what. Pounced and headbutted? Knocked to ground. one more hit to the body and the raptor cant fight as well. But if the raptor plays around bleed it'll do ok. But once again, combat should be based on how the dino is meant to be played. not on 1v1 matchups

[hasty coyote]

A lot of that is already in the game basically. Having “carno get its legs shredded” sounds a lot like a fracture. So you could basically just say everything deals some slight fracture damage and get that effect. However I believe that’s a very bad idea. Dinos with the ability to fracture are balanced around that fact that they have that incredibly powerful tool, and giving it to everything will cause imbalances. Pachy has incredibly low damage output to compensate for its fractures. Now imagine if Omni could essentially cause fractures without the drawbacks pachy has? And for things having resistance or weakness to damage types, that’s already in the game. Pachy has slightly increased bleed resistance, carno has a decreased bleed resistance, carno also has low fracture health, and cerato has high fracture health. Thus, what you want already appears to be partly in game, and the parts that are not would require a whole restructuring of the balance. Some dinos would gain insane buffs while others would gain insane nerfs. Overall it would just turn most Dinos into glass cannons and force others into a whole new niche.

If you’re trying to give more options for non lethal combat, you can’t most the time. Players like to fight to the bitter end, so the defense side has to be able to fight to the bitter end. Stuff like Troodons and Omni packs can easily disengage a fight with a teno if they feel that they are losing, but that doesn’t mean they will. Thus teno needs to be able to put up a fight until the pack leaves or dies. Pachy is currently the only dino able to have enforced non lethal combat due to fractures, but even they can decide to keep fighting and die. Fractures or a mechanic similar seem to be the only way to force a carnivore to disengage or allow the prey to escape and force the fight to end. However, abilities like this require the dino to be balanced around it and not be very lethal. That is why most fights are either “prey runs away” or “prey kills predator”, because the prey needs to be able to live even if the predator decides to keep fighting after they have lost.

[thin mantle]

@unreal drum I don’t know if someone already responded to you about this….but making hypsi spit have legitimately damaging or physically debugging properties is probably one of the worst directions to go with it for a myriad of reasons.

The obvious first reason is that hypsi is faster than a substantial chunk of the completed roster and can spit from a good distance, in fact hypsi has the only ranged dino ability in the game.
If that ability had the capacity to deal even tiny amounts of damage over time we run into an “Update 3 ptera situation” only far worse, since unlike ptera it takes far more to deter them from attacking than just trying to jump cancel their swoops…

With hypsi if you’re slower than the hypsi you’re basically walking fodder.

Hypsi also has legitimately zero need to deal damage with spit…..like actually none.

It’s also one of the most valuable Dino’s in a mixpack for the exact reason of its spit blinding the target. Having a hypsi in an Omni pack is objectively a MASSIVE buff when hunting anything in that pack. No need to make it even stronger.

[dusky surge]

it's also weird to want hypsi to be buffed in the combat department of all things

like, who fights a group of 6 hypsis as a pachy and goes "damn if only they could kill me"

[dusky surge]

it's also funny to note that dilophosaurus, from what we know, may also be the second ranged dinosaur in the game, and even faster than omni, while also having damage that does feel somewhat signficant

of course, dev numbers, but we'll see how that works out

[thin mantle]

Oh dilo looks busted as hell

Like I genuinely don’t know what a stego would do if bitten it just sorta dies

Considering the hallucinations can damage you and must be destroyed

God that sounds so unfun, time will tell ofcourse

It would be genuinely funny if dilo remained at 47 for speed….like that’s FAST for an animal that has a slew of advantages that capitalize on its targets not being able to see

[dusky surge]

people still think it's weak somehow, which is bizarre, or want it to have an even or greater fight against pachy/omni on top of everything else

[thin mantle]

You’ve gotta be joking

Like it has the single strongest kit I’ve seen for an animal so far

Well….deino

But ignore deino

Like dilo can actually have its Ghost army kill targets for it

It’s venom gets stronger the more the target moves so dodging the ghosts isn’t encouraged

[dusky surge]

i pointed out that dilophosaurus has the single weakness of being EXCEPTIONALLY vulnerable to omni on account of lacking any form of CC, and being essentially something the omni can tap-pounce into oblivion, and this apparently is a weakness that cannot stand

pachy, however, should absolutely shred dilo, especially at day

[thin mantle]

Tbh I’d still see dilo demolishing an Omni on a relatively level skill level

It’s just too fast

Maybe if it had garbage agility but that doesn’t seem to be the case either

Kinda like fighting a Galli that does more damage and you can’t pin but retaining a relative speed advantage

Oh….that summons a ghost army to fight you as well

Wave I’ve been checked out of islecord since the streams do people genuinely believe that dilo looks underpowered?!

[dusky surge]

people believe it either needs more or should be capable of certain things

people are still of the belief it should be an answer to stegosaurus because everyone wants an answer to stegosaurus

regardless of what that means for the rest of the roster

[golden coral]

A pair/trio of ceras is the answer, or just some troodons apparently

[dusky surge]

i personally just feel dilo needs a weakness, or outright should be predated upon and fearful of even 2 omnis

also the idea of its venom not actually being that effective in day would be nice too

[thin mantle]

I mean, it already is…..

Like I asked this question before but what does stego even attempt to do against a dilo that’s bitten it

[thin mantle]

Unless it gets a speed reduction it leaves both in the dust, like Troodon’s would be about as much of a counter to dilo as they are to omni….which isn’t much

[dusky surge]

if the hallucinations can also do 85 damage, we're not looking good for survival

[thin mantle]

And remember

[golden coral]

I meant for stego. Ceras already can take a stego in pairs since vomit "lock" is still a thing. Dilo will just be as good at it for different reasons most likely.

[thin mantle]

It gets worse the more you move….so just sit there and take it ig

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah, Troodon Cerato and Omni more than cover the bizarre quota people seem to have for playables that counter stego

Despite stego having good counters sorta undermining its entire existence xD

Since yknow….stego is just a wall that kills you

If something much much faster and numerous than it counters it well it sorta just dissapears

[unreal drum]

You're definitely not wrong, but like, I killed effectively 6 Hypsie blind, and only took .2 damage out of it.

[thin mantle]

Well tbf, you basically got attacked by ground parrots while playing a half ton battering ram

Like you outweighed them collectively by like…..4 times over

[unreal drum]

What is their adult weight?

[dusky surge]

20kg

[thin mantle]

It also wouldn’t really matter

They’re going to capable of climbing, are not at ALL geared towards climbing

[coarse blaze]

Honestly they give me more burrowing creature vibes with those legs

[thin mantle]

Yeah but not with those feathers

[dusky surge]

@alpine plover fracture is not chance based

[alpine plover]

Seem to be idk

[dusky surge]

fracture works on a system called blunt damage. More blunt damage you do to a specific limb, the closer it gets to breaking

Blunt damage scales with raw damage, so a fully charged ram as an adult will do way more than a tap ram by a sub adult

[alpine plover]

Ye but since they removed the stun how you gonna even use it’s head without being destroyed

[dusky surge]

they def had the right idea removing it, but it needs more to compensate

[alpine plover]

Ye you get also stuck in the animation and that’s free hits for the enemy

[dusky surge]

fractures should cause staggers, pachy in general could be faster or have more stam, pachy could use more damage output

[alpine plover]

At this point Pachy is replaced by teno

[dusky surge]

not even

teno also got nerfed into the ground with this update

[alpine plover]

They did?!

[dusky surge]

tailslam got a significant damage reduction and knockdown times got reduced across the board

[alpine plover]

So the only good herbi is stego?

[dusky surge]

i wouldn't even call stego a good herbi

between stego and deino, deino is by far the better option in terms of survivability, ease of growth, versatility and ability to actually kill things

i genuinely cannot think of a herbivore i actually would call good this update

[alpine plover]

All I am hearing buff herbis

[dusky surge]

essentially, yes, 100%

[alpine plover]

Cerato is something I don’t think fits in this week herbi state either

The bleed is stupid..

[dusky surge]

they are buffing stego for its move to unofficial servers to face off against rex, but we don't know what's happening with tenonto and pachy

hypsi will get climbing soon after herrera, and dryo is dryo

oh, and diablo is in the works. Hopefully that's actually capable of self-defence

[alpine plover]

Ye

Hopefully

[alpine plover]

Tbh ceras are to good rn

[dusky surge]

ceras are very good, yea

they're exceptionally versatile and are essentially better versions of teno

[alpine plover]

You can 2 hit most creatures with bleed

[dusky surge]

fun fact, tenonto does not have a single attack that does more damage than cera's charge bite or carno's charge

[alpine plover]

The hit box on carno is very questionable on some creatures

[dusky surge]

carno is stupid atm, it's a terrible, weak animal with an EXTREMELY overpowered attack

[alpine plover]

Ye

[dusky surge]

it needs to be better at doing other things besides just pressing RMB

[alpine plover]

Yep

[novel walrus]

@exotic umbra to the feedback of how crocs die when falling into water. Its not realistic. If you fall too far onto water itl feel like concrete. And since we dont really know the perfect size of dinos we can see how many meters there are in a fall. but i can imagine its hurt as a croc to belly flop from 4-5 meters

[exotic umbra]

yes i know that but what about somthing like 2 meters had it last night was not a big drop (follow river north and become very shallow, but spots where its just deep enough for a fg) there is a point there i dropped off thinking its not very big and broken leg 30% health.
not just in the water its when they walk as well as a very small incline they gone

[slim dragon]

2 meters is basically the height of deino

[torn egret]

Never realized teno had crazy bleed.
Fg carno yesterday, went after a pack of 2 fg teno, some babies, and they just shredded me. I was half blood within a minute, killed 1 of the adults and I think the other may have bled out, but it was insane. On a 2S dots diet too. Don’t think I would’ve survived it anyways.
Any ideas on how to deal with tenos?

[steep otter]

Get another carno buddy

[torn egret]

I figured that’s about it lol.
Glad to see that packing is still is encouraged because of matchups like that.
Starting to feel like the teno is a bit scarier after that lol.

[dusky surge]

you fail to realise that you played incorrectly, you should've repeat charge spammed

[torn egret]

Charged them about 4-5 times I think? But 1 got a well timed kick a few times after I rammed the other.
Also, chill w the “you played incorrectly” lol.
3 of em still died, I’m just new to carno as well lmao

[dusky surge]

its a joke regarding the fact that carno is a literal one trick pony

trying anything new or interesting will get you punished

[torn egret]

Gotcha. Few people been making digs at me last few days so I was expecting the same. My b.

[torn egret]

I like the carno as it is, but it definitely needs at least a partner to help

[dusky surge]

i despise carno as-is

it is the worst designed animal in the entire game

no other animal is as horribly designed as carno is, it's actually sad

[torn egret]

Only real issue I have with it is the bleed it takes.

The charge mechanic is awesome when you have a pack mate or two

[dusky surge]

the charge mechanic is a massive reason why i despise it so heavily

[torn egret]

1v1 it’s strong unless it’s a cera or stego.

[dusky surge]

it's extremely strong against cera

in fact, it's so strong, it is the reason the animal is so goddamn bad

[torn egret]

I kick carnos on the daily with cera tho

[dusky surge]

statistically speaking, carno is one of the worst animals in the game

worst swim speed, worst swim stam, worst stamina, worst bleed vulnerability, worst agility, worst hunger drain, worst night vision

all it has is the absolutely most overpowered attack in the game besides deino lunge

which is the only thing keeping it relevanty

as an animal, it's beyond garbage

[torn egret]

But it’s supposed to be weak solo. And it’s a plains animal built to run not swim. The bleed I think is kinda much, but that’s it.
Not every Dino should be strong solo

[novel walrus]

8 tons croc takes a lot of fall dmg. if u hit the ground underwater u take regular fall dmg

[dusky surge]

it should not be weak solo

[torn egret]

It absolutely should.

[dusky surge]

it is designed as a solo plains small game hunter, and it fails at all of them

[torn egret]

It’s not though, that’s why it’s weak to bleed etc.
I had a great time last night up until the tenos killing raptors and pachys solo.

But as a pair or trio it’s great if your friends can coordinate attacks

[novel walrus]

Carno is definetely something that could be a solo hunter. Theyre ambushers like deino. If theres 2 it doesent really matter as only one would get in an ambush

[torn egret]

But I can’t justify any carnivore that should be a great hunter and a tank solo. There are loads of stuns and attacks that bigger targets like cera and teno can do to stop charge attacks.

Those aren’t small game

[dusky surge]

they should not be ambushers either

[torn egret]

Idk why everyone is so fixated on it being an ambush vs pursuit hunter.
We know this map rn is horrible for making it a pursuit hunter, so as it is now it should play as an ambusher

[novel walrus]

im not talking ambushers as quick in quick out and dead. im talking as in when they start a fight they rely on attacking unseen. if theyre seen before an attack it becomes difficult to win

[dusky surge]

carno should not be as good as it is at killing tenontos and ceras, and it should be MUCH better at hunting small game

[torn egret]

But it is great?

[dusky surge]

i dislike this concept IMMENSELY for an open plains predator

[dusky surge]

it is literally insanely good at killing tenontos and ceras

[novel walrus]

sadly tho a the small game hunts it

[dusky surge]

which is part of the problem

[novel walrus]

i agree. but thats where its taken from what i see

[torn egret]

Even modern day predators in the plains and savannahs rely on ambush. No reason that if I see a carno far away that I have to fight it cause I can’t run

It’s huge. And there aren’t a lot of small game on the roster

[novel walrus]

or you could just walk 5 cm and hell be out of stam when he gets to you

[dusky surge]

those animals aren't 4 meters tall and 1.8 tons

it's a BIZARRE comparison to compare carno to stuff like cheetah

carno is not built for stealth in any context

[torn egret]

Not really. It plays like a sprinter rn, and there are plenty of bushes that allow for cover/concealment. Just saying that it’s tall af doesn’t mean it wouldn’t try to get as close as possible. Putting an angry train of a Dino on the plains and buffing stam etc is ridiculous.

And it’s about size comparison anyways. A lion will still stalk a rabbit instead of brazenly approaching it lol

It’s an ambusher. Anything that damn big needs to be good at 1-2 things.

Specialized creatures are all throughout history

[dusky surge]

if it remains an ambusher, it's doomed to irrelevancy

[torn egret]

I don’t see that happening.

Cause ambusher will always have a spot in nature. There are very few large predators even today that don’t rely on ambush

[dusky surge]

allosaurus is the same thing but bigger, better and less restricted to plains

carno is literally doomed to redundancy lol

it SHOULD be a pursuit-based roamer/sprinter animal, but a worse allosaurus works too

[torn egret]

Allo isn’t even in the game yet. So to knock it down already is kinda rough lol.
But even if the allo is “better” it will have its own struggles. Carno will always have a niche, and that’s close distance and repeat. I see allo playing more as a brawler and carno hit and run. Allo won’t be as fast, will have a different stamina draw, etc

[dusky surge]

allo is literally stated to be an ambusher

[torn egret]

Cause it has to be. It’s huge, can’t sprint long distances, like idk how that doesn’t make sense.
Cause you can play cera like ambusher, Omni etc. saying that something else has the element of surprise and that will make carno redundant is kinda funny lol. Every predator will try to ambush whenever possible. Some will need to be closer when it happens

But carno will always hunt mid small game.

Allo will need bigger food items

[novel walrus]

as far as we see from the concept arts (yes ik they arent always accurate) it seems that allow ill be keeping its ambush sprint

[torn egret]

Was honestly surprised they removed that from all the Dino’s. But I think it’ll be balanced with the crouch/stalk time and maneuverability.

Looks like it’ll be a substantial stamina drain too

Think they may add that to carnos as well to even out the field. Maybe raptors too

[novel walrus]

ig its cause they didnt want the utah runs down a carno thing to return. and it seemed kinda op since herbis didnt have it. made almost the whole playerbase switch to carnis. and those who didnt chose apexes or for a very samll playerbase normal herbis.

[dusky surge]

unless they redesign it

that's a bizarre take when the power of rebalance is a thing

[dusky surge]

it was an utterly garbage mechanic

[novel walrus]

carnos and raptors shouldnt have it. carno is already too fast to have ambush and raptor is agile enough. would be too overpowered if it had it

[dusky surge]

it literally existed to ruin balance and just be horrid for the game

[novel walrus]

yep

only allo having it makes it better

[dusky surge]

every single fight started with people doing some absolutely ABSURD looking crouch

it looked so silly

[torn egret]

So you think it’s not going to be balanced? I think the devs learnt a lesson from Legacy.

[dusky surge]

they did learn a lesson, ambush speed is bad

[torn egret]

It’s bad when everything has it in nothing cannot run anything else. That’s why they initially neefed stamina of the carno

[novel walrus]

the only 2 things they did well with ambush speed was allo having it and carno not having it

[dusky surge]

it literally makes speed inconsistent across the board, it objectively made fights horrid

it's also ENTIRELY carnivore sided

essentially making it that carnivores have more mechanics and herbivores are less appealing

i still believe a pursuit carno would be PERFECT to make the animal actually unique

[torn egret]

For once again, not everything is supposed to be a fight. That’s why I advocate for herbis to get more escape chances

I’m sure they will add a substantial stam cost for ambush charge

[dusky surge]

when both alberto and allo are intended to be ambushers, the ENTIRE midtier will be nothing but ambush predators, making the whole mid-tier roster exceptionally repetitive

[novel walrus]

carno shouldnt get ambush speed

[dusky surge]

no animal should

hell, even allo getting it makes me worried, unless it's done REALLY well

[torn egret]

I think we are assuming the worst for the allo and carno. I don’t mind carno where it’s at minus the bleed, but it’s a better pack animal than a solo which makes it fun af.

[novel walrus]

it should be smth that costs a large amount of stam when running, cant just be activated by crouching (im thinking as it needs to be covered in bushes or smth for it to be able to be activated)

now thats not perfect

[dusky surge]

i want a better solo small game hunter, rather than a worthless solo small game hunter that relies on making it that cera and tenonto do not get to play the game at all

[torn egret]

Exactly what I think they will do. Stupid stam usage or conditions for ambush

[novel walrus]

but it avoids 2 huge problems. ambush running to get somewhere faster, and no silly crouch walking in the open

[torn egret]

Maybe they will have stam usage for prepping the ambush.

[novel walrus]

nah. that just ends with another carno charge cost which is stupid. why does lowering my head take 10 stam

[torn egret]

But it’s not that bad. I can’t see it being horrid when they will be adding way more to the roster

[torn egret]

I mean for allo

Cause if allo gets a speed boost of any kind it will have drawbacks

[novel walrus]

ik

[novel walrus]

cost of the run speed. this is jsut a refference. im not saying it should be at these rates. but smth like running at 1.5x the speed for 3x the stam

making it a quick dash to catch stuff

which would put you at a severe disadvantage if you use up all of your stam on it

[torn egret]

Exactly. I don’t think it’ll be that misbalanced. Everything is hard to balance w a limited roster and bad map.

[dusky surge]

literally carno as it stands has gone against everything the devs intended for it

carno is in the worst spot it has ever been in, frankly

[torn egret]

Cause of map imo

[novel walrus]

heck up6 carno was better and that was VERY unbalanced

[dusky surge]

no, because of how it is

on gateway, it'll be even worse

take it from someone who has played on Gateway, current carno is the worst possible state it could be to migrate to that map\

[torn egret]

But it’s bad, because of the map.
With gateway, I’m sure carno will get a stam or bleed buff. We can’t assume the devs will just let it die off like dryo players lol

You can’t make it strong on spiro because of the poor map design.

[dusky surge]

it should get a charge nerf before any of that

[torn egret]

I don’t see issues with the charge tho. There are different charges bites, stuns, etc that cancel it right now. I think we have to wait until gateway to see just how bad it is. We can argue all we want about how things should change based on our preferences etc.

[novel walrus]

nothing cancels a carnos ram

ceras charge bite is cancelled

teno can only ever even out its tailslam

[torn egret]

Not if it’s timed right. And a teno can kick it.

[novel walrus]

heck even deinos lunge wont grab charging carno. only stun it

[novel walrus]

id like to see you kick a carno before it hits your tail

the only reason you can do that is because a carno cant hit the same target twice in one ram meaning it hits ur tail and then wont keep ramming

[torn egret]

I’m telling y’all, if you time the cera bite it cancels attacks. I’ve done it, and a teno has wrecked me as a carno and I’ve seen other carnos get wrecked

[novel walrus]

how does the ceras bite cancel it? it doesent stun only if u vomit and thats if u alrdy got hits on it

[torn egret]

Not sure the full mechanics, but I’ve tapped the charged bite on a carno and it’s charge didn’t hit. It’s my favorite way to fight them. Make them miss a ram and time the next one with a charge bite.

Then chase down and beat

[novel walrus]

in that case its a bug

[torn egret]

I’ve also full charged it. But because of delay you have to launch the attack before it’s ram hits

[novel walrus]

cera shouldnt be able to cancel a carnos ram

neither should it be able to full on hunt them

even tho it can easily

[dusky surge]

the charge is objectively too strong for the animal it is on

[torn egret]

It’s hard af to time, but it’s doable.
The chase down and beating is part of the issue with its stam rn and this map tho

[novel walrus]

doesent change that its a bug

[torn egret]

When you land a charge bite, even normally, the other Dino screams like a mf. If they are charging or attacking, it can stop an attack before it hits. Killed a speed hacking cera with tapping rclick

[novel walrus]

doesent stop a bite

[torn egret]

Idk what to tell you. But even a stego swing landing can stop attacks. No reason why it’s a bug on cera

[novel walrus]

if youre moving your left arm forwards at high speed to hit someone and they hit your right arm do you stop moving your left arm forwards to punch them or keep going?

if its across all species then its a bug in general

also cera has this thing called bile which makes things vomit. mayeb thats what u see

[torn egret]

Depends on how hard you hit them lol.
Not bile. I know the difference when something vomits lol.
But if you try to hit someone and they counterpunch you you go out like a light. Entire fighting styles on that premise

If I hit you with a hit before you do, it should cancel if it’s a comparable ability

Even if it doesn’t, it’s a headshot from a charged bite that takes out 500 hp full charged plus the head multiplier

[novel walrus]

the sound from being hurt doesent cancel attacks tho

if that was the case then you cant bite through calls either

[torn egret]

Idk what to tell you. But it’s only with the charged bite. Not regular

[golden coral]

@alpine plover Omnis can kill pretty much everything but deinos in the game if they are mildly capable, especially considering how good tap pouncing is. As for carno, probably because carno currently is more predated upon, than predates upon omni, and strangely enough has better matchup vs cera than the things smaller that should be it's main prey.

[alpine plover]

its just a real big gray zone in between omni and carno, maybe im even wrong about my impression of the balance, but imo carno does not need a buff

[slim dragon]

Carno needs a nerf to its charge and a buff to it's other stats because without the nuke charge it's gonna be terrible
But charge is still OP right now, much more than it should be

[obtuse ocean]

Well is it ? Its good vs smaller tiers and i think thats how they want carno to be ? Since its useless against larger so lets say half the rooster at some point its just really bad. And carno should be good vs small tiers,and for most part its only good at those who dont pay attention. Even tho i do hate the carno charge design

[slim dragon]

The charge is best used against things your own size
Which is not what carno is supposed to be going after

It also does way too much damage for "going against small things"
While its bite is pitifully weak

[golden coral]

It kind of needs buff and nerf really, or more so a change. The issue with carno has never really been about being too good or too bad, more so just never really good at any niche, design wise. I imagine that the accel buff (at least the only buff I've heard about) is to help it keep chasing despite the smaller and more agile target juking (or meant for ambush, for good or ill). Another issue with carno is that it scales far too well in groups due to how good charge is, while charge being pretty bad solo due to it being quite jukable and requiring lots of stam + run up time.

As for carno/omni specifically, well, carno is more or less meant to predate upon omni, not so much the other way around. In general, omni does really good vs the things it's faster than, that also happens to be less agile (I'd imagine maia, diablo, similar size and build animals would be really good targets for omni. Teno is good, but it is on the smaller and more agile end, and the only good large option is stego, that shouldn't be an option at all really (flanker attacking one of the best anti-flanker defenders, doesn't make much sense for the omnis there).

[obtuse ocean]

yea, but still. Teno is small. Upper hand of small sorta

[golden coral]

Sure, teno is smallish, but still quite close to carno size.

[slim dragon]

Nah it's the same size as carno
Definitely not in the range of things it should be hunting solo

[alpine plover]

its bite does the job tho, an omni is basically one hit, when you knock it down you just have to get one or two bites in and theyre dead. No, its too op.

[slim dragon]

There's only a 200kg difference between teno and carno

[obtuse ocean]

Could be true, but teno vs carno 1v1 should be evenly ?

[slim dragon]

That's because of the charge alone

[slim dragon]

Should be teno-favored

Because carno is not supposed to be going after teno since it's a small game hunter, AND it's not a fight teno can get away from

[obtuse ocean]

Maybe, i sorta feel in open areas carno should be favored. And in dense areas, no chance

[alpine plover]

true

omni shouldnt be a free meal

[slim dragon]

The charge just carries an animal that is otherwise terrible

[obtuse ocean]

I mean having a carno chasing you as omni is just funny

[alpine plover]

when the server ping aint 500 :/

[slim dragon]

Well getting hit by a charge shouldn't be something you can walk off unharmed as omni
You're supposed to dodge it and run for cover
With a nerfed charge and better bite, the result would be pretty much the same

[obtuse ocean]

Out in the open they should, atleast if your to far out in the open

[tall bronze]

There used to be a time LOOONG ago in legacy where being chased by a Carno was actually scary, but not too powerful. You could dodge and juke it, but it would quickly catch up afterwards, requiring you to either outstam it if you could or get to shelter while dodging. It was so fun.

[alpine plover]

i dont think carno needs a buff in any way, not the stam not the accaleration(?). and yes, tht what doctor said, a good omni should be able to outplay a mediocre carno, but carno is just the big bully for the people that are waiting for rex.

[slim dragon]

Carno will really need a buff once the charge gets nerfed to sane levels, because it's gonna suck badly

[golden coral]

Not really, carno is designed to take on omnis, so I don't think there should be much "outplay" aside from escaping it. You should need about 3 omnis for a carno to fight it, more or less.

[obtuse ocean]

Exactly how i see it to

[golden coral]

And carnos stam run time is hardly impressive. So it could do with a buff there, or well, run carb diet for now I guess. It's more so that charge should be the tool to stop the omni or whatever from running away, if it lands. And then finish it off with bites before it can get back up and keep running.

[alpine plover]

i disagree

[obtuse ocean]

So omnis should have it all then ? Stam/speed/agility? Can run from 90% of the rooster, pick and choose fights? Kill large and small without anything catchim them ?

[slim dragon]

That's how they are in JW so yes

[torn egret]

I think a lot of people have such huge expectations for Omni and carno.
Both play so differently and are both limited by the map.
Keep in mind, the Utah will be its own species soon.
I just started playing carno, and realistically, if you’re solo I can see people complain about it. But a good cera can mess up a carno, and a smart pack of Omnis is terrifying to a solo carno lol.
I’m also one of the few that thinks we should wait until gateway to change any of the Dino stats. Spiro is not viable for testing balance issues.
Carno is fine imo. You just need to hunt small game if solo. The bigger your pack the bigger they prey you target

[alpine plover]

never said that, and seems like you have no experience playing it.

[obtuse ocean]

Sounds balancing

[obtuse ocean]

Im not a expert in playing omni, so can be true

[alpine plover]

i expect gateway to make gameplay much different :)

[slim dragon]

And that's the issue
Carno is one of the most pack-reliant animals in the game
That's not right for something that's supposed to be a small game hunter

[alpine plover]

maybe not much actually, butr significant enough for me

[torn egret]

I have no issues running solo as a carno. I just need to always be looking for Omnis, or stalk a pack constantly. It should be pack dependent. If not, it’s broken. Omni needs a pack because of its focus on bleed.
Remember, Dino survival game, not fight night. If everything could hunt solo, then why pack?

[alpine plover]

you can rum from cera, but it can mostly outstam you. Carno has to think about getting an ngle to run at you, omni has to think on which wy to dodge, manage stam and see a way out/hide/jump up something and considering cera and carno are very hungry bois you are not guaranteed to eat a kill you made. Mostly i die from hiding by a fresh kill and not having enough stam to dodge the 3 juvi carnos running trhough bushes

[golden coral]

I think the biggest issue with omnis is the lack of requirements for their pounce. If they had to aim, then it would be much better.

[coarse blaze]

I genuinely don't pack up with carno because food isn't as plentiful, solo carno is really fine on it's own.

[tall bronze]

Pounce is definitely not living up to the original "filter for good and bad raptors" description.

[alpine plover]

omni is realy hard to play and i mostly ont mind, but some stuff is just made to feel really really unfair

[golden coral]

It never has xD

[slim dragon]

No, carno is not a pack hunter, it should not be reliant on packs. Same as deino, cera, or stego. These are animals meant to be played alone.
Carno should be most efficient when alone or in small groups

[tall bronze]

[torn egret]

The pounces could use a rework, but I think it should be only while sprinting and only straight forward.
Omni is hard if you rush. Remember to bait attacks and don’t rush. Took me a while to learn

[coarse blaze]

I feel like omni is pretty easy honestly at this point, no pounce punishment, good health, stamina, drains, good diet. Pins can insta-kill tiny creatures if you got enough stam and you can tap-pounce and bleed out most things in 5-8 pounces.

[alpine plover]

mostly packing as raptor will get you killed 50% more likely because people cant shut it or bait you out and run away when a juvi carno is ramming you

[golden coral]

Also it's weird that carno would be a pack hunter yes, cera could do it, but I did expect them to be too hungry to pair up, something about cannibalism (not that that doesn't have its own problems, because it does, but still)

[obtuse ocean]

You joking? Omnis needs pack yes, to take larger stuff down. Larger stuff can still wipe the floor out of the pack. You want larger dinos to run into your precious pack and not care about how many you are if you want a good ecosystem.

[coarse blaze]

A good solo omni can bleed out a steg, it takes time but solo omni is good is good

[golden coral]

I just want it to only work on the flanks, you know, where the omni actually sits on the target. If you aim too much in front or behind, you should just fail the pounce and run before the target smacks you.

[alpine plover]

but then again, find a solo steg!? no way

[torn egret]

Why allow packs for it if it’s a solo hunter? Why force it to be good at everything? If you want bigger targets, get a pack.
That’s how it works lol. If you let carno be able to solo everyone then it’s broken

[coarse blaze]

A lot of stegs run solo because stegs kill stegs the most.

[golden coral]

The fact that a solo omni can take a solo stego should say everything about how op omni is, or how bad stego really is

[coarse blaze]

A lot of stegs avoid stegs

[slim dragon]

I never mentioned carno being able to solo everyone, or even hunt bigger targets
I just wish it had more to its kit than just RMB and win, or don't press RMB and lose

[torn egret]

I agree it needs to actually use skill. But I’m sure it’ll get a rework eventually. Rn the new map is first and adding more to the roster

[coarse blaze]

It's mostly that omni can pounce from the front and exploit face-pouncing, those swings take a lot of stamina over-time so you can just bleed it out. It's not going to be able to chase you as an omni.

[alpine plover]

it takes more skill than landing a ram, sorry to tell you that.

[tall bronze]

RMB to win? Sounds familiar 🐊

[obtuse ocean]

Thats not the point, i solo alot. And there is a few things you need to accept as solo player. Your not gonna go for anything bigger, unless its huge skill diffrent. But if your allo going for 3 omnis you can easy kill one and the 2 others run away cus they cant fight back.

[coarse blaze]

Omni should not be able to latch from the back/front of dinosaurs

[golden coral]

Hence the wish for pounce to require aim, it would also tell it a bit better what targets are good and bad. Those that are slow/unagile and can't defend their flanks would be the proper choice to hunt

[alpine plover]

it cant anymore afaik, and afais

[torn egret]

But you said it should be a solo hunter right? It is, but only small targets and small packs.

[coarse blaze]

Pounce punishment at all would be ideal, I 100% agree.

[obtuse ocean]

Numbers should matter, but skill should be what makes a good pack. I would rather fight 10 bad omnis then 3 good ones

[coarse blaze]

You can absolutely latch from behind and front still, as of maybe 3 days ago while running teno v omni it was very much a thing.

[slim dragon]

And when grouping up it becomes overly efficient against large animals
Which shouldn't be a thing
And the reason it is that way is because of its bad stats and OP charge
SO
Nerf the charge, buff the rest
So carno can properly fill its job as a small game hunter and not be mostly efficient as a pack hunter

[torn egret]

Let’s drop allo for now but I get where you wanna go with it.
If you can only get small prey, hunt more. That’s how carno works solo rn. Pack up with another guy and you can get more food less often.

[coarse blaze]

I think you could nerf the charge but give the thing better stamina, carno is a plains runner and gets out-stammed by everything.

[alpine plover]

cheetah doesnt have much stam but is fast.. i dont think carno should have more stam

[slim dragon]

Carno isn't a cheetah

[coarse blaze]

Beipi can out-stam carno

This is absolutely a problem

[alpine plover]

no its not, if you get your ambush right and ram it you killed t, no reason to be able to reward you for not hitting

[slim dragon]

Carno is also being carried by spiro's plains not being actual plains

[torn egret]

Of course lol. A carno is way faster and bigger.
Like I said, Omni needs to be more skill based, but that doesn’t mean carno takes no skill. Rams are a huge stam cost. Wish they made the charge build up instead of just being able to right click. Make it tougher to use etc

[coarse blaze]

Rams don't insta-kill most things that aren't super tiny

[slim dragon]

But instead being littered with conveniently-placed bushes for ambushing

[obtuse ocean]

As solo player, if im carno im not gonna go hunting anything big. But going for small tiers should be very doable. More food yes, but bigger packs means more food and hopefully not sustainable going for easy picks.

[torn egret]

It’s a plains sprinter. Not a long distance runner. You make it long distance, you better have some big af fields and minimal charge dmg. The charge needs a rework for gateway, but there’s no point in changing it on spiro.

[thin mantle]

I mean if you hit a Cera or teno with it they basically have already lost

[alpine plover]

if carno ambushes like it should, it doesnt need a lot of stam. simple as that, just hit your ram

[golden coral]

Carno should be better at actually chasing and running things down, especially if allo and others will be better at ambushing

[thin mantle]

Carno isn’t an ambush predator

[alpine plover]

it is

[coarse blaze]

Unless they're aware and know how to dodge, both are far more agile than carno.

[obtuse ocean]

Carno is mini rex and i hate it lol

[golden coral]

Carno should not ambush. It should chase things down, so stam is more needed. Also nerf the charge damage so it's a way to shut down the running thing, to follow up with bites to kill.

[slim dragon]

How is a 3 meters-tall plains hunter an ambusher ?

[thin mantle]

It’s terribly designed for stealth and hunts small fast reactive targets in open areas….

What about that screams ambush

[alpine plover]

its what the devs want it to be.

[golden coral]

Carno ambushing is just bad, even more so when allo could do it better (also makes sense, grab the thing before it can run away)

[torn egret]

100%, just started solo carno play a few nights ago. I have no issue chasing food down. Omnis are great because they feed me with a big pack all night lol. But I’ve had my backside wrecked by a good pack before.

[golden coral]

Is it? Based on what?

[coarse blaze]

My issue again doesn't lie in the charge, it's just that it can't run for very long at all, which makes traversing the map genuinely painful. If it's trot speed were to be slightly increased I'd honestly be completely fine with the current stamina.

[obtuse ocean]

Just put in legacy carno and its all good, but without the high heels

[slim dragon]

The devs want it to be a small game plains hunter, not an ambush predator
It's just poorly designed

[coarse blaze]

I just hate that a mid-size carnivore is that slow for traveling the map

[alpine plover]

not sure it was either a devblog or somewhere else

[golden coral]

Trot speed increases overall, please!

[coarse blaze]

There's been far too much confusion on what carno wants to be vs what is it in game

[torn egret]

I’ve killed carno even after getting rammed. It’s a play style thing, some players have diff strats

[coarse blaze]

things got an identity crisis

[golden coral]

Don't recall that. Far as I know, carno is not designed, or meant to be an ambusher, and it makes little sense too

[thin mantle]

I guess I just have a demonstrably high success rate

[slim dragon]

Carno ambushing makes about as much sense as spino being an ambusher
Or stego hiding from predators

[thin mantle]

Even if it was originally intended to be an ambush predator…that’s still a terrible idea

[alpine plover]

yeah no im almost 90% sure ive heard it somewhere that was pretty solid, but then again i could be wrong

[torn egret]

But it’s not that bad. It’s a roamer or an ambusher. I’ve traversed the entire map before looking for food, and I’ve sat my butt on a hill in a bush. Depends on the day.

[golden coral]

Big sail xD

[slim dragon]

There are still people who believe spino should be an ambusher

[thin mantle]

You’re joking

[coarse blaze]

Yes the massive pred should be an ambusher

[thin mantle]

The billboard with legs

[golden coral]

In general, solo carno isn't quite as good as it should be, while groups of carnos are too good. And the issue is pretty much just the charge :p

[alpine plover]

spino should be a pescivore and slow, but people dont want realism they want big cool godzilla thingies

[coarse blaze]

I can't traverse without starving normally, the hunger drain on carno in my opinion should be swapped with ceras.

[golden coral]

Works for rex, if it lives in a forest. But spino? Living in water? I mean, that sail will give you away xD

[torn egret]

I hope you didn’t take that as a dig at you, or if you’re talking about your carno play then great!
I started w cera so I’m most comfortable with it, and I learnt that the longer the fight the more likely cera wins. So I play like that.

[thin mantle]

I don’t even want realism and that’s what I want for it

[coarse blaze]

They absolutely sit on realism to a fair extent, if they didn't they wouldn't have crippled carno with the poor turning ability but in reality it's skeleton basically concludes it's turn-rate was likely very poor.

[torn egret]

I’d be ok if it had a smaller stomach with its drain. Like a fg omni could fill up the carno. Make it more reliable. But with such a small roster that’s probably why they make it so hungry.

[alpine plover]

i actually prefer realism and immersion but i understand thats not what caters to the majority of people.

[thin mantle]

Oh don’t worry I didn’t lol.
I’ve been playing Carno since it came out so I expect myself to be a bit above average with it.

[thin mantle]

I prefer immersion, realism often leads to boredom if actually taken literally

[alpine plover]

yeahh and thats what i think should also be implemented, that would make it a lot more fair for having such an op ram

[torn egret]

Gotta show me some stuff. Wanna “master” each Dino if possible. Then I can help others. But that’s just what I like to do.

[alpine plover]

i like the mundane things of living in the wild :D

[thin mantle]

Carno isn’t worth mastering rn it’s skill ceiling is just so….painfully low because of how few it’s options are

[torn egret]

If there were more out of combat things to do, then we’d be Gucci

[coarse blaze]

Then go to PoT, you're at the wrong stop. The artistic liberty I think breaths a nice fresh breath into the standard "trike, rex, raptor" tropes that every dinosaur-related media panders too. Isle tackling less-known dinosaurs like beipi and making them in their own light is refreshing in my opinion.

[alpine plover]

yeah.. carno doesnt take much

[coarse blaze]

Also I don't think the ram is OP

[alpine plover]

did you just suggest POT for realism?

[thin mantle]

Combat will never not be the focus of the game, I’ve come to terms with that for awhile and tbh it doesn’t bother me

[torn egret]

I’ve seen some REALLY bad carnos lol. It’s a low skill floor, but if you know what you’re doing I think it’s super niche, but very effective

[alpine plover]

it is

[golden coral]

In itself, no, but the way it scales, yes.

[torn egret]

I heard they will be adding more to it eventually. Stay hopeful lol!

[coarse blaze]

The way it scales and the way it is are fairly different, I agree that in itself it's not OP

[alpine plover]

carno just doesnt take enough skill imo

[coarse blaze]

It does not one tap most things, people just whine about the knockdown

Omni doesn't take enough skill either

[thin mantle]

I wouldn’t mind if they did but tbh…
Nothing ever added to the game will be as engaging as combat.
If the added mechanics only serve as alternatives then I won’t take issue

[golden coral]

Also why not make the charge a tool, so carno have to use both charge and bites to get kills, and tune it for pursuit so it runs things down over the plains. Then you give allo ambush potential and grab, and alberto endurance and big bites.

[torn egret]

Most people just tap ram. Which is dumb. That’s why people hate it, but I wish that it took a second or two before the ram could happen.

[alpine plover]

it does, and if it doesnt it basically still does because the time you are knocked down you will get bitten to death

[golden coral]

To be fair, only teno takes any skill

[thin mantle]

Omnis one of the lowest skill floor animals in the game

Also true

[golden coral]

You do have the run up time, you need to be at max speed to use it.

[coarse blaze]

Avoid getting rammed, you have so much more movement, 2 rams and they're out of stamina 9/10 times.

[torn egret]

If there were more pve elements like weather, disasters, Argo ai etc it could be great

[coarse blaze]

I saw that honestly chasing a carno works very well in fights, just not letting it get any room to tap-ram

[alpine plover]

okay 2x3 or even 4 if you didnt forget the pack thing

[golden coral]

You know what we really need, new stego kit so it can get some variation in attacks and gameplay and hopefully be more of a stego than its current scorpion form!

[coarse blaze]

People would whine so much if they gave anything to steg

[torn egret]

But that’s the thing. They only need to tap it. Which is why people complain about it. If you miss you’re screwed lol. Which I think is fair, but the charge should have its own buildup after activation imo

[golden coral]

To be fair, if both sides have a pack, the carnos should hold the advantage, but the charge does scale too well. But you could also just... spread out, the carnos can't chase you all down, just all run away on your own and meet up later.

[alpine plover]

omni takes a lot of skill to play good, carno doesnt, thts my main problem with all of it, make missing a ram more punishing by keeping the stam low, everybody always talks ybout punishing omnis pounce

[golden coral]

I don't think the tap "activation" is the issue at all honestly

[coarse blaze]

Because pouncing should be punished

[alpine plover]

true, but that also makes it lss likely for you to actually espace

[alpine plover]

and missing a ram too

[golden coral]

Eh... no no it doesn't. Omni is very simple. Missing a ram is more punishing than missing a pounce as it stands right now.

[alpine plover]

so low stam, thats why it shoulnt be chnaged

[coarse blaze]

Omnis exploit the front/back pouncing so often, miss your pounce? No problem just pounce again!

[golden coral]

Due to how massive the stam drain is.

[tall bronze]

If you miss a pounce, you just....keep running and try again. 😛

[golden coral]

Because its too low to make carno an effective chaser

[coarse blaze]

Plus omni has massive bleed to add onto it, tap-pouncing cases way too much bleed

[tall bronze]

I agree with the removal of the stun on a missed pounce, but it needs something.

[golden coral]

Tap pouncing needs to go, make pounce ramp up over time

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm

[torn egret]

Carno is not that busted tho. Neither is Omni pounce, but the bleed should be reworked for how long you’ve pounced. Not a flat amount imo.
Carno is “easy” because people play ambush style. But if you miss a ram and I’m a cera, good luck lol. You gonna die XD

[golden coral]

So you have to wear the target down first, before you can pounce successfully

[coarse blaze]

I think a stun would have been fine, it would have really stopped people from just carelessly pouncing with 0 thought

[golden coral]

That way you could apply something to omni bite/claws to use to wear the target down before pouncing it to kill it, or something

[coarse blaze]

It's not hard to bleed out something with a bunch of omnis who have no idea what they're doing

[golden coral]

I think it's far more important to fix the "can pounce from any direction" than the punishment on miss

[alpine plover]

but carno should not be punished for missing its most powerful attack? do you just want it to reign overthe whole roster?

[coarse blaze]

I would be completely happy with that

[coarse blaze]

No, it loses all of it's stam on the rams.

[alpine plover]

yes

[golden coral]

You add the aim requirement, missing becomes far more scary because now you're more predictable in where you will be pouncing from/aiming for, so missing becomes more predictable too

[torn egret]

I want the bleed to scale based on how long they hold pounce. Not flat amount cause that’s dumb. Just tap pounce and that’s it. That part takes no skill

[coarse blaze]

It will be empty on two full charges

[tall bronze]

The stun was a bit much in all honesty. Also felt very clunky. Made pounce either really good or really bad.

However some form of punishment is required. My favorite idea for it is extra stam lost on landing and worse acceleration for a few moments. Not input locked, still punished, no clunkyness.

[alpine plover]

yes but you agreed with the proposed buff to its stam.. so i dont get it

[golden coral]

No, charge taking lots of stam is fine, normal run stam is another matter

[coarse blaze]

Because it has very little stam and is currently out-stammed by everything yes.

[torn egret]

I think it’ll be buffed on gateway with the larger map

[golden coral]

But I kind of like the idea of making the charges, well, charge, like dryo or apparently dilo

[coarse blaze]

Sprint/stam cost is different than charge/stam cost

[thin mantle]

I’m fine with it being bound to stam for Carno

[golden coral]

So you get three charges, takes no stam, but regens slowly, so you better use them when your aim is true

[thin mantle]

Unless charge cooldowns just take forever then that would be better

[coarse blaze]

it's the sprint/stam cost I complain about.

[alpine plover]

but instead the stam cost for charge should procentually stay the same?

[alpine plover]

imma need to ponder bout dat

[golden coral]

Pretty much yes. You could easily make it so carno only gets two charges before its out of steam, even if you give it more normal run time

Or honestly, better trot, give it better trot and run time is fine too

[torn egret]

I don’t. 2 reasons.
The charge should be used to both hit targets and catch up to them.
Make it an ability like dryo dodge and then carno falls off the roster because if it’s charge fails it can’t fight.

[alpine plover]

that, i could actually agree with

[coarse blaze]

Yes if the stam/cost for charge stayed the same, had a cooldown or even took more stam but the dinosaur overall had better stamina so that it can at least sprint a far distance without being empty I would be completely happy.

[thin mantle]

Carno having around 60 seconds of runtime and effectively 4 charges before it’s out of stamina means it’s effective time in combat is around 40 seconds if you only charge once

[golden coral]

I don't think charge should be used to catch up, only to knock things down for a kill confirm, and you could give it 3 charges or so, so there's a few chances before you're out, no different from being out of stam from a charge really

[alpine plover]

we on common ground, i think that would make it fair for everyone

[thin mantle]

I don’t think it should be used for catching up, Carno is already fast enough it shouldn’t have a speed crutch that makes it move quicker

[golden coral]

Carno should be nature be faster than its prey, the charge should not be a speed boost, just a tool to get kills

[torn egret]

Carno should be winning fights super quick because it has bad stam. Make it an ability with its current stam and it’s busted

[thin mantle]

Carno is still the fastest animal in the roster and it’s getting it’s agility buffed

[thin mantle]

I don’t even think Carno should be encouraged to “fight” at all

[torn egret]

But here’s the thing, I’m ok as long as it uses stam to charge.

[thin mantle]

Ideally it’s only targeting creatures that can’t really fight back

[coarse blaze]

Again my issue is that it can be chased down by ceras, it's faster but it won't be able to run for long if a pack of ceras just continues chasing it for a long while

[golden coral]

That, to be fair, is more an issue with cera

[torn egret]

That I agree with. Bad wording on my part

[coarse blaze]

Cera's stamina is insane

[golden coral]

Being too good of a hunter as it were

[thin mantle]

Cerato is both far too enduring and slightly too fast tbh

Sickness is also arguably stronger than it used to be

So yknow….hooray for defensive Cerato

Or as it was meant to be

[tall bronze]

Also does squat as a scavenger

[coarse blaze]

I think it needs to be more focused on that scavenger niche, with no real reason to eat rot and it being so easy to hunt with it's a bit much.

[alpine plover]

yeah its slightly too fast, but tenno shouldnt be able tu hunt it either xD

[coarse blaze]

It's a very flexible and strong carnivore for it's size

[torn egret]

Cera can get overwhelmed easily. Imo.
I think if it was rewarded more for scavenging it would actually bully people off of kills rather than hunt itself.

[alpine plover]

ceras the real problem frfr

[golden coral]

Cera is generally weak to carno, while great at killing stegos due to vomit xD

[latent bay]

all cerato needs is less speed and less stamina and in return a little teeny tiny passive damage resist while just generally moving around, nutrient gain from rotten bodies too

[golden coral]

Then again, troodon also kills stego, so maybe its a stego problem xD

[coarse blaze]

Carno v Cera, if the cera is good it's a pretty good fight really because of that bile bite.

if they can avoid rams it's pretty good

[golden coral]

They do need to work on vomit more, current vomit lock is like old pachy stun vs slower things (instead of breaking their legs first)

[coarse blaze]

People hate, hate steg and still whine despite current dinos being able to kill them

people just don't got the patience to hunt stegs

[golden coral]

I can't wait to see how they'll deal with rex and trike :D

[torn egret]

Cera is balanced imo. Without vomit it can’t kill much else. Otherwise it’s just a bad mini Rex. It’s quick, great stam, but it’s also got nuanced combat. You wouldn’t dare face tank a carno without a body.

[coarse blaze]

Steg mains will 100% go to trikes

I know I will

[golden coral]

Wouldn't call you much of main if you do that to be honest :p

[coarse blaze]

I mean

steg will be gone

So old main won't be a main anymore

[alpine plover]

true that, a good omni pack will kill it pretty fast(if the steg doesnt use head glitch in rocks and trees

[golden coral]

Play like magy, just hide and never be seen :p

Sad state when stego has to do that in the first place xD

[coarse blaze]

It wouldn't matter too much if they're good at pouncing/dismounting timing, it's not the DMG that'll kill it but the bleed

[torn egret]

Personal best is a pack of 3 stegos. Lmao. Love watching stego get impatient. Took me 45 min tho 😐

As cera

[coarse blaze]

Solo-omni it took maybe 15 minutes to get the bleed a bit down, 2 omnis cut that time but it would take a long time. They'll likely run out of stamina mid-way if not earlier.

[alpine plover]

yes but considering you dont get an angle to pounce it from you will insta die

[thin mantle]

Teno wouldn’t be able to even if teno was a good but quicker because of how it’s attacks are designed

[thin mantle]

It really doesn’t need counterbalancing it’s just too strong

[coarse blaze]

I practiced with someone who was a very good omni, again it just depends how well-versed they are with their shots really.

The times I did kill the omnis were via dismounting.

[alpine plover]

it depends a lot on the terrain tbf

[golden coral]

Only really vaugely reliable way, now imagine how trike and rex will handle it that doesnt have that kind of attack xD

[thin mantle]

Apexes just die

[golden coral]

Also the fact that cera can hunt stegos, or trikes or rexes, is so weird

[coarse blaze]

Kind of spooky honestly

I'm so exicted for little Dibble

[golden coral]

So much for the corpse bully, but then vomit is stupidly overtuned xD

Bite rex five times, watch it starve to death, easy win

[coarse blaze]

I want to hope this makes it in

[golden coral]

Will proceed to die to a pair of ceras or some omnis or troodons

[thin mantle]

Nah it debuffs omnis, that’s not allowed

[torn egret]

It’s not incentivized to get corses. No nutrition if rotten. Fix that, and lower food from fresh corses and you’re good imo

The vomit is used to hunt only cause it can actually survive with the current diet system

[coarse blaze]

Bile should only be gained via corpses 👏

[golden coral]

With how vomit works, not at all, you need to remove the vomit "lock" and/or make it only remove your ability to gain nutrients, but not remove all your water/food. Or scale the bile, so you need far more bites for larger things.

[tall bronze]

And with how nutrient gain works in 6.5, you actually put yourself at a disadvantage eating rotten meat since it just gives food. Too much food and less nutrients filled = filling nutrient slots later on becomes a p a i n

[golden coral]

Currently you vomit everything in 5 bites, they lose all but 20% food and water from what I've seen, and they can't attack or run while vomiting. And if one of your fellows go down, you now have the body buff for the hunt

[thin mantle]

I want fitness so bad :(

So much better than diets

[coarse blaze]

I feel like bones shouldn't give you hunger but only nutrients as cera

[golden coral]

I honestly don't see why a trio or pack of ceras won't just kill rexes and trikes pretty easily

[coarse blaze]

That way you could still eat rot for food

[latent bay]

but then if it doesnt get a counter-balance and only gets a speed and stam reduction, it gets turned into a chalk outline by Tenontosaurus and Carnotaurus to a point where why play cera when carno or teno is just better

[golden coral]

Sacrifice one or two of your pack, vomit them into oblivion, watch them starve or dehydrate, because they can't eat without risking vomit, get no nutris, and you can harass them even more due to body buff

[torn egret]

What if the bile worked more like Komodo dragon irl? Make it stack, but maybe give it 3 uses before it’s empty? Tag a target and just hunt it down that way with better tracking? Then you could justify the speed nerf too

[thin mantle]

No it doesn’t, teno can’t play aggressively

Also if you’re not playing Cerato in the open then Carno will still not be a problem

[golden coral]

Possibly. Im just saying that with how it currently works, you'll kill any apex pretty easily

[torn egret]

I think there needs to be more options besides salt for sickness tbh cause of what you said

[latent bay]

it sure as hell can if it's largely faster than cera

[golden coral]

While the rex is trashing one of you, the other three just go "bite bite bite" and there you go. Yes, you'll lose one or two in the fight, but you get to kill a rex or trike via starvation/dehydration, or even just really ruining their day if you don't get the kill

[torn egret]

And I think that’s because it needed to be strong to be attractive to play. Once it gets a true balance on gateway I think it’ll be such a unique experience

[golden coral]

Possibly. But then you could ask why they designed it like this, but at the same time kind of making it out to be that cera isnt meant to hunt very well

[torn egret]

Cause the game isn’t well developed yet.

[obtuse ocean]

I loved how dondi said rex is a mini game lol

[latent bay]

I get it, Gateway is going to solve this, but I know nothing of Gateway other than it looks pretty and it's objectively go, but currently the map is nothin but jungles denser than a steel cube and plains more bland than a bowl of pasta with nothing extravagant put on the top of it. Almost every playable currently cannot function without open spaces. If Ceratosaurus is forced to stay in the hilariously dense jungles to not get instantly turned into glue by Carnotaurus, then there's an issue present imo

[torn egret]

Once it’s mechanics reward it for scavenging that’s what’ll happen to it.

[thin mantle]

If that’s the case then dibble is gonna get folded by teno, I doubt it tho.
Also again, Cerato still wins the trade if it has a body near it, it doesn’t matter how much faster teno is at that point and you can always have access to one by carrying

[obtuse ocean]

I also tho about it, but honestly i doubt it will happen. If you also think what they have said about apexes

[golden coral]

That doesn't fix the current vomit "issues" though

[torn egret]

But thats only as it is now. Gateway will change the way it’s played

[golden coral]

Unless the mechanics change to be better for scavenging and making vomit non-useful for combat

[latent bay]

i shouldnt be forced to bring a corpse everywhere though. Ceratosaurus should be as viable as anything else without having to constantly bend backwards leaning on budy buff as a crutch

[mortal tundra]

@wraith spindle I believe colored night-visionn is planned, they just didn't release it yet.

[tall bronze]

I'd honestly be down for it's corpse buff being swapped for a passive resistance that goes away below 50% HP, like it's bleed resistance.

[torn egret]

Vomit should be reworked to make it hunt like a Komodo dragon imo. I think 1 vomit per full stack of bile should be fine with its current punishment

[torn egret]

Buff only applies to bodies above certain weights and is reduced if body is moved btw. Learnt that recently

[golden coral]

I don't think that'd help. The issue is the harsh result of vomit plus the lack of scaling.

[thin mantle]

Spiro is irrelevant we can just discuss under the context of gateway which actually has good forests

[thin mantle]

I mean….it doubles your health pool, so I don’t see why that strategy shouldn’t be balanced around

[torn egret]

Can’t change it now, cause it’ll need rework immediately after gateway is released.

[mortal tundra]

@alpine plover Carno doesn't one shot raptors. It might if it charges and only to the head, and also a single omni can, even though it usually doesn't happen, solo a carno. If you're a full adult carno out in a field with no water/mud/cliffs around you, and the raptor is really good at playing, you'll probably die. It may not be easy for the raptor but it can happen. And it sadly happened to me recently.

[golden coral]

I honestly don't see how the map will change the mechanic

[torn egret]

Does not double hp. Reduces dmg from 25%~50% based how big the body is compared to you. Doesn’t apply if under 800kg

[latent bay]

a 50% increase, first off, is not doubling the effective hp of Ceratosaurus. that's an additional 650 health pretty much. Secondly, once again, that shouldnt be the only thing that keeps Ceratosaurus viable. Look at how the "rely on single mechanic to keep viable" solution is working out for Carnotaurus currently

[golden coral]

Far as I know, the buff applies in full from omni sized bodies

[tall bronze]

I remember seeing a test video of how the buff is actually super inconsistent

[golden coral]

And it does reduce damage to 50%, which kind of does double your hp for effectiveness

[unborn iris]

It's 50% less damage.. which means you take half damage. Double hp, in a way.

[thin mantle]

A damage reduction of 50% doubles the effective health of the Cerato….it halves damage

[torn egret]

Its more than just the map, my b for framing it like that. Gateway will add more Dino’s, more food more mechanics etc.

[golden coral]

No, it's 50% less damage

[thin mantle]

So Cerato effectively has 2600 hp

[torn egret]

Hp gained does not equal dmg resistance

[golden coral]

That won't change the vomit itself, more dinos don't matter here, so unless the food, somehow, changes, but I dont see what kind of food mechanic would change the vomit thing

[thin mantle]

Hence “effective hp”

[unborn iris]

It ends up with the same result.

[mortal tundra]

That effectively means it has more health.

[torn egret]

If you get more food from rotten corpses, why hunt? Then you need to wait till it rots etc

[golden coral]

Yes... that is the point... xD

[golden coral]

Because you can hunt, because you can kill?

[latent bay]

well that just goes to show i shouldve ran that calc again before saying anything, my bad

[torn egret]

Dmg resistance is there only if it’s on a body. So it’s not a constant thing.

[golden coral]

You... don't honestly believe a bunch of ceras would pass up killing an adult rex or trike just because they can eat rotten food, right?

[thin mantle]

No prob xD

[mortal tundra]

Oh alright, I thought you were disagreeing on that but I read the other guy's message.

[latent bay]

still doesnt much disprove my second point tho

and ty for not making that an opportunity to rip on me lmao

[thin mantle]

No prob!
Also it sorta does cuz you can carry and drop as small as a dryo body to get max DR, a body which you can run and carry

It’s literally cerato’s meta playstyle

[golden coral]

@torn egretIt's no different from why do stegos fish for deinos. Because they can. Because it works. Same would apply with cera and their bile, or troodons and their venom vs a trike or rex.

[torn egret]

Let me rephrase lol.
If I get more benefits from rotten food, I’ll want to follow the kills rather than make my own.
Sure people will hunt others down that won’t change, and I think vomit WILL need a rework on gateway to make it more about leaving cera alone and give up bodies. But players will always try to kill

[golden coral]

Do the troodons need to kill a rex? No. Are they going to do so anyway if they can? Yes.