balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

based on what lol

[simple depot]

as of right now it cant

[keen plover]

If we're basing it off that, then Deino couldn't effortlessly carry a Carno. There would be much more of a struggle

[golden coral]

Yes, and they currently don't, because deino is not designed for it.

[slim dragon]

You're still ignoring the fight deino still can kill things its own size
A solo deino can kill a stego if it's playing right

[golden coral]

As of right now it cant, because it was given a mechanic that means it does not fight normally

And as long as deino has its funny lunge mechanic, its meant to use that, not fight "normally"

[simple depot]

if were basing off what? Because it could if it was apex level which it could be

[slim dragon]

(Stego which, remind you, is designed to be killing things its own size, as opposed to deino)

[golden coral]

So it isn't designed to go and fight things it's own size

Since those things are out of range for the lunge

[simple depot]

An exception doesnt make the rule

[golden coral]

You need to treat deino as "if I cant lunge it, Im not meant to go after it"

[keen plover]

Why does it need to do that when it's a PERFECT punch down playable. That can survive a while without eating

[golden coral]

It'a also one of, if not the best solo playable when it comes to hunting

[slim dragon]

So deino should have a 100% chance of killing a stego so it can be "balanced" ?

Or are you gonna admit skill matters ?

[golden coral]

A playable that does not need anyone else for 100% successful hunts

As long as you can grab the thing and has stamina + deep water, it dies

[simple depot]

It doesnt need to lunge and drown a rex or a stego I just explained an broke down how to balance apex deino. Doing deino justice as this all still based off dinos people love

[golden coral]

It doesn't need to fight them either

[slim dragon]

This is very heavy deino bias

[simple depot]

It should

[golden coral]

By no means does it need to, when it has lunge as a successful hunt mechanic

One of the few mechanics where a successful attack guarantees the kill

[simple depot]

It should if i answer your question

[golden coral]

As long as you don't mess up your stam management

[golden coral]

Based on what? What game reason?

[dusky surge]

"doing deino justice"

it's got enough justice as-is

[golden coral]

Because your popularity argument isn't a valid argument, not for game balancing

Since that's ever so subjective, more than most balance takes at that

[dusky surge]

ya think?

[simple depot]

i originally stated deino should just fight back stegos but you said ok but you need to explain how it fight everything else I DID sat an made it all make sense

all yall said was i dont like it basically

we dont need deino that strong

why??

[golden coral]

Deino should not fight back though

That implies deino has the power to fight, thus rendering lunge obsolete

And making it far more powerful than it needs to be

[keen plover]

There's like no way to make Deino be able to fight off a Trike or Rex without inflating the damage to insane levels

[golden coral]

Since it can insta-delete smaller things with lunge, or without, and fight similar sized things to what, a stand still at that

[keen plover]

Trike would reduce Deinos damage and dish out high damage in return

Rex just fractures and deals high damage. It's also VERY tall, so good luck ever hitting its head

[golden coral]

And if it can't fight them off, they will bully it instead of stego, so might as well let stego be up there as well since it needs to contest with trike and rex, while deino does not

So the issue seems to boil down to "its stego, so we cant let it fight deino"

[keen plover]

Similar HP, but one deals more damage and can consistently hit your head hitbox

[simple depot]

It has both it has the power to fight apexs but 4tons an below needs lunge because it wouldnt be able to catch them people would still use lunge as its a unique mechanic

[golden coral]

Which is just not a valid argument for balance really when we look at the playables, their capability, weapons, size and potential and so on

[dusky surge]

why? if its bite is strong enough to contest stegos, it could literally LMB those animals and kill them

[golden coral]

Yeah, that's the thing. You don't need to use lunge vs omni or pachy

[dusky surge]

why lunge at all

[golden coral]

You one shot them on body anyway

So if you gave deino even more power, then why lunge anything smaller when you just can go nom

[simple depot]

I told u how i would balance stego vs deino

[golden coral]

No, but even if you did, then you'd still have rex and trike

And if you don't balance for that, you'll find them bullying your deino at the shoreline and on the islands

[simple depot]

i also told you how i wouldnt make deino a stego murder an wouldnt also make stego a deino murder

[slim dragon]

So how the game is balanced :
Playables need to be viable. For that, a few questions need to be asked
-Can it sustain itself ?
-Can it be killed by something other than its own kind ?
-If so, is it a guaranteed death ?
Answering these three questions allows you to know if a playable is underperforming, viable or overtuned

[golden coral]

So then you can deal with that instead

And still have the same issue of being bullied

But maybe it feels better if its rex or trike, I guess

[simple depot]

I already said that maybe you didnt read

[slim dragon]

-Can stego sustain itself ? yes
-Can stego be killed by something other than its own kind ? yes (deino, omni, troodon)
-Is it guaranteed death ? no

[slim dragon]

stego is fine

[golden coral]

If you make it so deino can fight off a rex or trike, it'd be immensely powerful and would just do that vs everything instead of being the punch down hunter lunge is designed for

[simple depot]

I literally said ALL OF THAT

like bruh

yall jus didnt like that answer yall got

because it comes down to fan balance

[golden coral]

Much as it's so silly omnis and troodon especially can even do that, but for now, I guess xD

[simple depot]

which i tried to explain before

[golden coral]

No, no it really really does not.

[slim dragon]

-Can deino sustain itself ? yes
-Can deino be killed by something other than its own kind ? yes (stego)
-Is it guaranteed death ? no
Deino is fine and doesn't need buffs

[dusky surge]

you have literally gone and asked the same question repeatedly after being answered because you didn't like the answer we gave you, rather hypocritical to be saying "you didnt like the answer"

[simple depot]

yall dont want yall trike losing to a croc

[golden coral]

You don't even explain how deino would fight

No, trike should not lose to a deino, not because "we don't want it" but because it makes no sense and its not needed

How do you not understand this?

[keen plover]

It's impossible

Unless it can be lunged

[golden coral]

Look at the game situation, for the love of...

[simple depot]

He asked me how deino would work around everything with apexs i explained Yall didnt like the answer

[golden coral]

Deino does not need it, simple as that

[dusky surge]

because the answer wasn't very good

[simple depot]

i said it also die to those said apexs

[golden coral]

You're making an argument for something that deino by no means need, its not balance

[dusky surge]

it would work fine as-is with apexes

[simple depot]

no yall jus didnt like it

[keen plover]

Trike will take reduced damage to the head, you're not beating that

[dusky surge]

literally nothing would change if rex and trike were added atm, deino can continue surviving

[simple depot]

yall stuck in this way of what yall want deino to be

[golden coral]

Deino would work fine if trike and rex came in, stego would not, stego is the one that needs buffs here, deino needs nothing

[dusky surge]

balanced? yea

[slim dragon]

Buffing deino is unneeded because deino is already fulfilling its role perfectly

[wind lynx]

dawg really thinks a croc can survive lunging at a trikes face

[simple depot]

deino doesnt need to be strong

[golden coral]

You're stuck on "I think the matchup should be going this way" while we're looking at "does it need to go that way"

[dusky surge]

and yet you insist on making it such

[slim dragon]

So any buff given to it would just be unnecessary
And now THAT's fan balancing
You're buffing something that is already perfect

[golden coral]

Deino is immensely strong already

That's the thing. Deino is very strong, it's op as it stands

[simple depot]

I really think a croc as big as deino got the potential to kill all 3 apexs yes

[golden coral]

Looking at the deino, in the game, all of its advantages, it's stego cranked up to eleven and then some

[wind lynx]

thats funny man

[simple depot]

i also think it got the potential to lose as well

[wind lynx]

this dudes a jokester

[dusky surge]

"deino doesnt need to be strong"
"I really think a croc as big as deino got the potential to kill all 3 apexs yes"

which one is it

[golden coral]

And you want it to do so purely based on size, rather than any game balance

While I'm arguing for game balance, not just size, or "want"

Deino does its role, its very good at it, there is no balance issue with it

It works like a deino would, more or less

[simple depot]

I already said balance

[golden coral]

No, you don't quite understand balancing I don't think

[simple depot]

do u want me to like copy or paste or something

[dusky surge]

you did use that buzzword, yea

[simple depot]

you just dont like the answer

[golden coral]

Deino is more than viable, deino is very good as it stands

[dusky surge]

i dont think you actually balanced anything, but you certainly referenced it

[golden coral]

While stego is... somewhat underperforming if we look at how it should work, see the omni/troodon "issue"

[dusky surge]

stego is def underperforming

comparing what stego has to deino has is night and day

[simple depot]

i think i actually answered his question on how deino would go against all the other apexs

[dusky surge]

you did, it wasn't balanced, but you did answer it

[plain gust]

And the graphics card?

[simple depot]

how wasnt it balance because you aint like it?

[dusky surge]

no because it is objectively not balanced

[simple depot]

or because deino will kill trike

[keen plover]

How though...

[dusky surge]

i literally have 4 years in education in game design and 3 years of experience as a Game Designer, I know game balance

[simple depot]

i wont even go that far my point wasnt it would kill trike

so i take that back

[golden coral]

And the fact that it "can" go against them would be the balance issue. Since it isnt designed for it, does not need it, and it doesnt fit with it's role.

And you never really did explain how the fight would go

Or what attacks or anything the deino would use

[slim dragon]

Re-reading the balancing question, I should change the "can it be killed by something other than its own kind ?" into
"can it be killed by something other than its own kind while trying to survive ?"
In which case the answer for deino becomes no
And makes deino overtuned

[golden coral]

You just gave some vague "matchup list", that doesn't quite work anyway in this game

[simple depot]

your saying it wasnt designed for it but how im pretty sure elder deino is killing stego

[golden coral]

You can't let deino both have the lunge for smaller game, and fight, somehow, larger game, and be untouchable in water, and more or less invisbible, and have few, if any predators, at the same time.

That would not be balanced at all.

[golden coral]

Oh sure, an elder deino can kill an adult stego, but not an elder stego

[slim dragon]

that would be balanced if deino was the main character
Which it isn't

[golden coral]

Also I imagine most elders will wreck the normal adults, at least in their prime

Elder stego beating an adult rex easy xD

[simple depot]

rex wouldnt have any predators but competition like giga, deino has spino

[golden coral]

Competition and predation.

I could see gigas hunt rexes, and vice versa. Or even spinos, or well, them hunting spinos probably. And spinos hunting deinos, yes, but not deinos hunting spinos apparently.

[dusky surge]

according to devs, spino outright predates deino, there is no competition

i don't really agree with that approach but it's what the devs have stated

[simple depot]

i dont really think hunting the word honestly i see giga vs rex as competition same as deino an spinos i dont see hunting althought could happen like two gigas hunting 1 rex but i could two deinos hunting 1 spino

[slim dragon]

I would be in favor of this if I let my hate for deino decide my opinions on balancing
But spino should definitely have the upper hand, without being straight unkillable for deino

[golden coral]

To be fair, we don't know what elder deino would look like, maybe it still won't be killing stegos, especially not if stegos get powered up. But it probably will, same as elder stego will just wreck a few deinos, no problem.

[golden coral]

Sure, in which case the herbis compete with each other as well, hopefully at least

But not sure how that relates to deino not being up there to compete with things

Deino is not competition to the terrestials, any more than they compete with deino

[simple depot]

im replying to this

[golden coral]

So again, no need for deino to mess with them, and spino is said to be the one predating deino

[simple depot]

deino wont mess with them but they wont mess with deino currently stegos mess with deinos an they shouldnt

[dusky surge]

no, spinos will mess with deinos

again, devs have stated that spino hunts deino consistently

[simple depot]

yea i know

[dusky surge]

deino is encouraged to flee or die

also stegos only mess with deinos as much as deinos allow it

[simple depot]

yall way isnt wrong you could keep deino like that an their will be balance to the force i jus dont think thats the only way

[slim dragon]

It's not the only way, it's just the best
Or the least bad, because deino in all honesty is quite a balancing mess

The existence of stego is literally the only thing that makes it not an overperforming god

[dusky surge]

basically

[simple depot]

i feel like that way doesnt do deino justice because at the end of the day this game is about people who love dinos an we play it to play our dinos

[slim dragon]

It also has to be balanced so everyone can enjoy it in the end, not just deino players
Also if you want to "do deino justice" then you should cut its running and swimming speeds in half

[simple depot]

like in marvel avengers when hulk felt weak if i play hulk my favorite character an hes not what he should be thats doing the character wrong i feel like keeping deino weaker than almost everything does it no justice as

[golden coral]

I could say the same for current stego

[slim dragon]

It's not "weaker than almost everything"
It's just weak enough so it doesn't ruin the entire roster

[golden coral]

It's not really done justice, even less than deino

[simple depot]

i see yall point but i feel like deino getting crushed by stego has to be the only way to go about it

[golden coral]

Now imagine you had a fighting game with all of the characters. Do you think it should be balanced so all the characters are worth playing and fighting as, or balanced to where thor and hulk are invincible to the rest because well, hulk and thor?

You seem to be more stuck on how it would work "fan wise" or .. I don't know "lore" wise, rather than how it should be balanced for a game properly

But game balances comes before "doing justice" to a playable, for good or ill

Omni pounces, and is an actual JP raptor. Carno charges because "cool", not because it's "justice" to how carnos irl were. And so on...

[simple depot]

I made my way of "Balance" a way that doesnt have deino get pulverized by stego yall just dont want deino like that

[golden coral]

You're.. I don't know, stuck on the idea that the playables should reflect something else than how they actually work and how they work in the game

Which is just not how balancing is done or should be done

[simple depot]

Literally deino can work like that i dont what your saying

[golden coral]

But you don't want that purely because of some "fan" reasoning, not because it's related to actual game balance

[simple depot]

in one update long ago deinos could 1v1 an kill stegos

[golden coral]

Why is this so difficult to grasp. Look at how deino performs, then ask yourself "does this playable need this"? Does it actually make for better balance? Does it make sense for how the playable is designed, for how the playable work?

Put aside your ideas of "fan" or how you think it might work realistically, and just look at the playable. Much as stego currently isn't that realistic, it does work in the game, so I'll have to accept that.

[dusky surge]

and back then stego was garbage lol

[golden coral]

Even if I think stego should be able to just swipe omnis and troodons off its side with it's tail

[simple depot]

If you made deino the same stats as rex with the way deino is built in game deino could kill a rex so what do you mean its not built that way

[thin mantle]

It’s not designed that way in game

[golden coral]

It can't do that, much as I think it would do it justice due to stegos flexible tail and reach

[thin mantle]

That’s the only thing that matters

[golden coral]

But it wouldnt have the same stats because its not meant to, not designed to

It's not designed to be a playable that goes "om nom nom" on things

[simple depot]

ok but your saying its not designed that way as its impossible

[golden coral]

Unlike rex that is very much designed to just chomp and crush things

[simple depot]

when deino can be

[golden coral]

No, we're saying it's not designed that way, and thus doesn't need it, to be well balanced

[simple depot]

what way couldnt it be

ok

[thin mantle]

There’s a misunderstanding here

[simple depot]

I just sat an explained how it can be a balanced apex

yall didnt like it

[thin mantle]

It wouldn’t be balanced how you described it

[golden coral]

Omnis aren't designed to hunt things with bleed resistance. Could we make them do that, sure, but they're not meant to. They're also not meant to hunt via damage. We could let them do that, but they're meant to be attrition bleeders

[golden coral]

Please link that for me, I'd like to see it again

[simple depot]

It would be balance i literally broke it down

ok good

Your saying it doesnt need to but if it was able to push stegos away doesnt stop rex from killing stego. If stego needs to hold its own against rex i can simply just say make deino in the same tier as all the other apexes. Its lunge will still be effective against 4ts an below an wont be effective against anything above. Lunge will still be useful even though deino players barely use it anyway. As lunge is a unique mechanic an will allow deino to grab things it cant catch. it could fight a spino which the battle could end up more in favor of a spino because of its health but can give spino competition You could also make deino maybe a little slower if you wanted to so that spino can be a real threat to deino but deino is also strong enough to fight it like spino vs rex legacy or maybe giga vs rex when it came to trot an stuff like that. When it fights trike it will be able to push a trike away same as stego Giga would lose because croc is has good bleed resist but giga can just run away when it fights rex it can have brawl but the side could be more in favor of rex an shant could make it just run. Now if you do that it could push stegos away stego can be as powerful as it needs to be if you want it to defend itself against rex if you dont then fine. All the other match ups go as plan most of these match ups could go the other way an end up having a dead deino with most of them it all depends on the dino an the situation an ultimately the player. IF you tell me why this couldnt work i will let yall have it but the simple 'Deino doesnt need to " isnt a good arguement

[thin mantle]

The main issues with making deino statistically stronger is
A: it doesn’t need to be stronger as water is a MASSIVE advantage in which only one other animal can even contest it, and giving it higher damage values renders lunge largely irrelevant. It’s bite is of lower strength to exemplify it’s reliance on lunge to kill things that aren’t DRASTICALLY smaller than itself, it’s not intended for anything but basic self defense…which is why it’s able to be such a low power attack relative to its size as deino literally can’t be threatened unless a spino is around. Deino is borderline confirmed to be faster than spinos planned speed in water and spino cannot swim, so it can avoid that threat as well.

B: As touched on before, bigher attack values reduce the value of lunge. Increasing lunges grab range renders it too oppressive, so maintaining a lower degree of strength works for it.

[dusky surge]

please use paragraphs :(

[calm ibex]

shift + enter to make one

[slim dragon]

spinocanswim

[thin mantle]

If so then deino will without a doubt be better than it

[slim dragon]

yeah

[thin mantle]

Regardless spino is only a problem for deino if deino lets it, or if droughts effect it harshly

[golden coral]

Okay, so let me break that down. You don't actually provide any balance. You just describe a bunch of theoretical situations without providing any form of descriptions for how the attacks should work, who should be doing what and in what manner. You tell us nothing about how the matchups would go based on the mechanics and what the playables can do. You don't provide any proper balancing, because you just wrote a bunch of "could maybe do this, could maybe do that", without actually providing any reason as to why playables should be doing this or that, why they need it, why it makes sense, and so on. You just talk about "pushing away" without saying how, or why the need is there. You don't take into account the playables as a whole either, just specific parts without considering the rest, which is also bad balancing, or well, not really balancing at all.

[simple depot]

ok i do see how lunge with bite could be a issue that is true

[thin mantle]

And honestly lunge is a good limiting tool to prevent targets too big to be lunged from being demolished on shorelines

[golden coral]

You just... wrote a bunch of theory with no arguments behind it, no reasoning as to why this is balanced, no examples or anything. I'm sorry but that's not balancing, that's not how you make an argument to be considered.

[thin mantle]

If it was power shifted towards its raw damage it’d be too versatile

[thin mantle]

Also true

[simple depot]

and also all your saying is i didnt balance anything but creating a system where any dino can be killed by another with apexs was the question u asked now i do agree with fluff the real big issue that could come of this what i said is bite force making lunge useless

[golden coral]

You didn't balance because most of what you said was "could do this, could do that" without any actual stats, mechanics, reasons, biome considerations, and so on. There's so much to balancing, and to the game in general and the roster, that you just don't seem to take into account.

[simple depot]

i gave u how deinos can be killed an get killed an can push things away also trying to have stego not killed by rex

[thin mantle]

Tbf you didn’t actually provide reasons why deino should be capable of “pushing back” against other apexes. You just said it should. But in actuality deino has no need for that because it can’t be threatened by them

[thin mantle]

Stego and rex are very different compared to deino and rex. Stego doesn’t have a complete state of immunity like deino does. Water provides a safety state for deino that stego can’t access

[simple depot]

well you want me to say how a deino should be able fight a trike

or a stego

[thin mantle]

Or rather why

Mostly why, not how

[golden coral]

You didn't really, you just said "it could", with minimal reasons, but not with any examples. You just say things like "it could fight", "it could push away" with no stats backing it, no reason backing it. Just... it could do this or that. Yes, things could, but they need to make sense for it to be that way. Hence why could does not mean should.

[thin mantle]

Cuz the how doesn’t matter at all

Like you could balance Omni to solo trike

If you wanted to, so the how isn’t important

[simple depot]

exactly the whole argument weve been having this whole time is why i want deino as strong as them but yall saying i didnt explain balance an such which is how

[golden coral]

Well, the how matters for how the playable works I'd say

[simple depot]

so what do yall want

[golden coral]

You can make rex breathe fire, but well... :p

[obsidian cloak]

Would the spino and deino play out more like hippos and modern crocodiles?

[simple depot]

my why could be as simple as i want to do deino justice

deino was as strong an big as all the 3 apexs make it so

[thin mantle]

Well, no you didn’t. Balancing defines necessary strengths and weaknesses for coalescence with the game.

Deino shouldn’t just be strong because other animals around it’s size are too, it has to have reasons for it.
Deino lacks those needs

[golden coral]

What do I want? A solid, in game, balance related reason as to why deino needs what you want to be a balanced, viable playable. A solid, in game, playable related reason as to why the deino should be able to do what you want it to do, mechanically and such. A solid, in game, reason why the deino should be "done justice" when the game isn't some accurate to real life simulator.

[golden coral]

Yes, but that's not a balance reason....

[thin mantle]

Animals in this game have never, and will never be direct translations of their irl counterparts. If that were the case rex would dominate the roster in every category

[golden coral]

That's not balancing, that's just you wanting it because , well, you want it

[thin mantle]

Giga wouldn’t be viable, nor would spino

[simple depot]

ok so how would deino fight off a stego?

[thin mantle]

Tbh it doesn’t have to

Just turn around and it can’t hurt you

[simple depot]

because they may even add new mechanics

off the mechanics we have just up it bite force

[slim dragon]

More than half the roster would be nothing but fodder

[thin mantle]

Why tho, it doesn’t need it

[golden coral]

It wouldn't. That's the thing. There's no playable reason, it doesn't have the mechanics or stats to do it. There's no balance reason, it does not need to fight off a stego at all, it can just ignore it and be on it's way. And there's no real life argument, because those two never met, and were not adapted for each other.

[simple depot]

thats not a good arguement

[thin mantle]

Deino is already the second most unkillable animal in the game behind ptera

Yes it is, balancing is defined by necessary needs

[slim dragon]

Sir, this is a survival game, not a fighting game

[golden coral]

You want deino to fight off stego because some reason, I want it not to because of balance and how the playable works.

[slim dragon]

If you want a game in which anyone can fight anyone, Street Fighter 6 recently came out, and it's very good

[thin mantle]

True!

[golden coral]

There's a difference in our reasoning and why I don't think you've provided any form of balancing at all

[simple depot]

if deino could push back a stego from the water was my point

not be a stego murder

[thin mantle]

That’s….not a point

[slim dragon]

And how do you make deino push stego away without being able to kill it ?

[thin mantle]

It’s actually the start of a question

[simple depot]

they both got their respective territories

[thin mantle]

Yes they do, if stego goes swimming deino deletes it, on land stego wins

[simple depot]

I litterally BEEN said how

[thin mantle]

What’s the issue

[simple depot]

in the beginning of the arguement

[golden coral]

Up the deinos biteforce?

Which was, if so, explained why that's a bad idea

[thin mantle]

There’s still never been a described reason why these buffs need to exist

[golden coral]

Right, the hp/damage thing I didn't quite understand?

[thin mantle]

Just that they should

[simple depot]

yes

[golden coral]

You might try and explain that to the others here, they might understand it better

And be able to explain it to me in turn

[simple depot]

was just an example

why does stego need to be this way?

[golden coral]

Because I'll admit, I didn't quite get how you intended for that to work, so perhaps try and explain it again for the benefit of the newer ones to the discussion, see what they think of it

[simple depot]

i could just say stego doesnt need to be

thats not a good arguement

thats all yall saying

[thin mantle]

Because stego has to combat a lot more than deino does, whereas deino is predominantly safe

[golden coral]

Except I've explained why. Or rather, I've explained why it is.

Because deino has the lunge, and how it works

That's why deino and stego matchup is what it is

[thin mantle]

Also deino has lunge

[golden coral]

Because deino is not designed to hunt things it cant lunge

It's not so much "stego needs to be this", as it is "it is that way because of what deino is"

[simple depot]

it wouldnt hunt any apex

as ive said

[golden coral]

No, no it wouldn't. Correct.

And thus, it wouldn't fight them either

[simple depot]

what can deino lunge limit at

[golden coral]

4T currently

[thin mantle]

4tons

[golden coral]

Which is a 70% or so grown stego I believe

[simple depot]

so apexs are usually 5-9 correct?

[thin mantle]

9+ typically

[simple depot]

i think deino should be able to fight its own weight it shouldnt get demolished like it does

[thin mantle]

Why

Why must it, it can swim away

[golden coral]

I don't know if it's purely weight or also weapons and so on, but I'd argue 7+T for apexes perhaps

Not sure most will be above 9T honestly

[thin mantle]

Depends

[golden coral]

I would say it also depends on the playable

[thin mantle]

Very much so

[golden coral]

You can't, for example, compare a 6T para, with a 6T stego

[simple depot]

It must it swim away say for instance stego is in deino turf which they usually killing deinos for sport why does the deino have to run deino should be able to push stego out

[golden coral]

The para is probably not fighting that deino half as well as the stego does due to lack of thagomizers

So it's not just weight, or size

Hence why "same size" is a bit of a misnomer. It might be better to say deino is not meant to brawl/fight, thus, if it goes up against things that can fight, and isn't small enough to die quickly, it will lose

[thin mantle]

A stego cannot kill a deino in the water, so no.
If you consider the shoreline as deinos turf then that’s just incorrect, that’s still land. Until something is actually swimming it’s not in deinos territory

A deino that fights a stego on the shoreline isn’t denying any of the advantages that animal has on land

[slim dragon]

Half of the problem honestly comes down to spiro rivers being bad

[thin mantle]

Also that

[simple depot]

deino should be able to push stego out this isnt a hunt not every animal fight has to end up with one or the other dying this is more so of a brawl to get one animal out the territory. stego could have more hp than deino where deino can have the same or more damage, or we give deino a defensive buff like cera when stegos come to water either way stego will have enough health too survive but also be strong enough still for deinos cocky enough to go on land into its territory. As it stands yea we know just swim away but it shouldnt have to deino is still bigger than stego it should be able to stand its ground. I saw one stego kill 3 deinos as trash as those players were that shouldnt be possible with 3 8 ton crocs coming at one stego. The whole just swim away never plays out that way in game

[brittle tundra]

rx 550

[thin mantle]

It’s just entirely unnecessary since deinos not designed to be a competent combatant in game. That’s why it has lunge, it’s an ambush predator

And again, it doesn’t need the power to push threats away

Because it has no threats

[simple depot]

because it should have the power to do so its main threat is stego outside of another deino

[thin mantle]

Stego is no threat to deino

A deino in the water cannot be killed unless another deino kills it

[simple depot]

correct but deinos being no diff'd by stegos aint balance

[thin mantle]

It actually is

Cuz deino never needs to fight stego

[simple depot]

i dont agree with that if it comes to that water it do

[thin mantle]

Not that it does get no diffed since deino can still fight it off

[thin mantle]

Well it’s not coming into the water, it’s still on land, if it’s in the water it can’t attack

The mistake some make is thinking the shoreline is deinos turf

When it’s just the land that’s next to the water

[simple depot]

crocs attack anything at the waters edge

[thin mantle]

Crocs can be really REALLY dumb

[simple depot]

stego shouldnt be an exception

[thin mantle]

Yes it should, cuz why not

This isn’t the real animal

This is a playable character in a survival game

[simple depot]

shoot elephants arent an we know how that go

[thin mantle]

Ok…..how is that relevant to deino in game

We don’t balance animals as they are irl

[simple depot]

stego doesnt need to be massive murdering deinos

in their own element

[thin mantle]

It can’t

[simple depot]

it does

[golden coral]

As long as the stego is standing, not swimming, it is not in deinos element

[thin mantle]

You’re objectively incorrect

[golden coral]

Okay?

[simple depot]

im factually correct

just hop on the game

[thin mantle]

If a stego is swimming it literally can’t swing it’s tail

[golden coral]

I can't make that clearer. If the terrestial is still standing, it's not swimming, therefor it's not actually in deep water, which is where deino does have the advantage.

[simple depot]

if stego gets to waters edge it should get attackedd

[golden coral]

You need to stop thinking that the shoreline is your territory, it's not

[obsidian cloak]

Well you can stand in water

[simple depot]

an run

[thin mantle]

Why

[golden coral]

Waters edge is not your turf, you bask at your own risk (as you should for that matter)

[simple depot]

it should not have no fear of the water

when something literally bigger than it is below

[thin mantle]

Why it’s over 4 tons

It’s not in lunge range

[simple depot]

doesnt need to be deino can bite

its a brawl not a hunt

as i explained

[golden coral]

True, but honestly, standing in deep water should have some stam penalty for terrestials when it comes to movements and attacks (while semiaquatics should not, thus giving them an advantage there). But even so, if the critter is not swimming, it's not deino target, unless it's within lunge reach. That's the main point here.

[slim dragon]

This conversation is going circles

[thin mantle]

Which deino is designed to be bad at doing

[simple depot]

not its not

deino can chomp down anything

[thin mantle]

Not in game no

[simple depot]

like bub said the 1 perecent can kill a stego

[golden coral]

Stego isn't half as powerful as you think, a deino can almost solo one, two deinos can take a stego pretty easily, if risky. And that's fine, two deinos vs something their own size that is heavily armed. Yeah, they're not meant to fight/brawl, they're meant to ambush and lunge. That's their design, we've explained this.

[golden coral]

And you can attack anything at the edge. Doesn't mean it will go well for you. Any more than it does for crocs that attack elephants.

[slim dragon]

Especially considering there's on average 5 deinos for each stego on a server at any given time...

[golden coral]

You need to separate "can attack" from "will be successful"

[golden coral]

It should when the thing in the water isnt meant to hunt it

[golden coral]

It's not even going that far

[simple depot]

yes it is an ambush predators but it can also fight as well doesnt need to be the go to but stego doesnt need to be messing with crocs for that to happen

[golden coral]

No, it can't fight as well, that's the thing.

[simple depot]

it literally can though

[golden coral]

Deino is terrible at fighting, that's part of why the mirror match is so bad

[simple depot]

as you jus explained

i mean true

[golden coral]

Well, sure, if you count biting with very low damage and not very fast, you can fight

You just won't win the fight

Which is, again, fine, because you're not meant to win the fights

[thin mantle]

Rex isn’t just strong because it’s rex.
Rex is strong because if it can’t crawl it’s prey to the ground and fight basically everything in the game it starves or gets hunted.

Deino doesn’t have either of these pressures

Which is why it literally has to be “underpowered”

[simple depot]

as to why a deino should be able to make a stego run if a stego is cocky walking around waters edge standing in water or by that island with no care because it can slaughter a deino. I think deino should be able to fight back

[thin mantle]

It can’t

And any deino that gets killed by stego is just

[simple depot]

it should

[thin mantle]

Bad at the game, deino is the hardest animal in the game to die playing as besides ptera

[simple depot]

it should fight a stego

[thin mantle]

Why

[obsidian cloak]

If the critter isn't swimming doesn't mean that it isn't a target. Is it easier target while swimming yes. if you look at most videos showing crocs what are they doing? Lunging at what ever critter is taking a drink.

[simple depot]

Right not obvisouly u cant you may have your exceptions but that doesnt make the rule

[golden coral]

It does if the target is not within lunge range

[thin mantle]

It’s impossible to die playing deino unless you’re either putting yourself in danger or getting cannibalized

[golden coral]

Because if the target isnt within lunge range, you probably will get beaten up if you attack it while it can still fight

[thin mantle]

Stego is no threat to deino

[simple depot]

crocs go for anything

[golden coral]

Which most things cant do while swimming

[simple depot]

it shouldnt get beaten up it should beat stego up

get stego to run away

[thin mantle]

Because why

[golden coral]

You keep saying that, without any good reason.

[simple depot]

although if croc goes on land stego pushes back into water

[thin mantle]

That’s literally how it works rn

[golden coral]

And not everything they go for will go well for them

You do realize just because something is possible to attack, doesnt mean it has to work out for you if you attack it?

[thin mantle]

Omni CAN attack deino if it wants to

[simple depot]

there is little that wont go well an stego ain wont of them

[slim dragon]

Gators irl aren't that good at fighting
The average florida man can beat one with a flip-flop

[golden coral]

Stego very much is one of them, obviously

As demonstrated in the game

[simple depot]

U can tell me the state of right now an i will agree

[golden coral]

And even by dev statements such as if there was a tug of war, stego would be pulling deino on land, not deino pulling stego into water

[obsidian cloak]

You didn't specify how far away from the waters edge.

[simple depot]

but i dont agree with the state

[thin mantle]

The devs disagree with you

[golden coral]

If the target isnt within lunge range (4T) or less, you want it to be swimming or not attacking it. Since if its still standing, deep water or not, it can fight fully, which means you're out of luck as deino if it's something your size with weaponry that is more suited for fighting.

[simple depot]

crocs will fight off whole lion prides

[golden coral]

Which we've explained why the state is what it is, and why it makes sense and is balanced, even if you disagree with it

[thin mantle]

Hehe….that’s cuz lions don’t know what to do when faced with gators

If they actually wanted to kill the gator they would, and do

[simple depot]

thats not balanced

they wouldnt

[thin mantle]

They do tho

It literally is balanced too

Also real life isn’t balanced

[simple depot]

a 21 ft nile croc is out of their paygrade

[thin mantle]

Not even a little

[golden coral]

Also irl has pain... xD

[thin mantle]

Yeah animals in the real world have apprehension and pain

[simple depot]

Crocs have they strongest bite force in the animal kingdom

[thin mantle]

Smarter animals avoid combat as much as they can, gators aren’t smart

[golden coral]

And well, perhaps the animals dont always know their own stats, much less those of the enemy :p

Meanwhile, we're playing a game, no pain, and we can figure out our stats and how our playables work and adjust for that

[golden coral]

Cool. This is a game, irl argument not useful

[slim dragon]

But far from the deadliest bite

[thin mantle]

Why are the habits of real animals relevant anyways

[golden coral]

So with all due respect, how an irl gator works isn't very useful to translate to how deino is, or should be, working in the game

[simple depot]

because although game needs balancing this what these animals are base off of

[thin mantle]

Gameplay > Realism

[golden coral]

Yes, based off. With all that then comes with the game, and it's design.

[simple depot]

so a deino who can get up to 14 tons which for game isnt necessary is getting not even mid diff but NO diff by a stego

[golden coral]

Our stego isn't accurate, our raptor is literally fanfiction, our carno isnt accurate, our pachy isnt accurate

Our teno is most certainly not accurate

[simple depot]

but for the game sake thats still not even good balance

this jus makes stego unchallengeable rulers

[golden coral]

Could you maybe, I don't know, understand that the playables are only based on their irl counterpart, but then adjusted and given mechanics that seems fun, makes "game sense" and so on

[simple depot]

as they are right now

[golden coral]

So your references to irl, are not useful

[slim dragon]

Stegos are very much easier to kill than deino

[thin mantle]

This is a lost cause, have a good night!

[slim dragon]

Although you only play deino, there are other playables in the game who can kill stegos

[golden coral]

But it isnt. Deino can put up a fight. And stego is powerful, plenty powerful. Stop thinking of stego as some weak and defenseless herbi

[simple depot]

no i main omnii im well aware

[golden coral]

It's a critter that can output damage to rival trike

[golden coral]

No, that'd be deinos

[golden coral]

Awh!

[simple depot]

they arent weak deinos shouldnt be killing them but stegos shouldnt be slaughterin deinos either

[golden coral]

So, should we apply my take on stego vs omni, if we do yours for stego vs deino. Let stego swipe omnis off its side without even needing to buck. Make stego "immune" to any form of pounces. You fine with that?

[simple depot]

reached

[golden coral]

Because if you are so insistent on deino being given "justice" and made properly, I can do the same for stego

By all rights, stegos tail would be flexible enough to do that most likely, so that'd be reasonable

[golden coral]

Which they aren't, unless the deino insists on a fight it doesn't need to take. And in that case, yes deino should get slaughtered, because it has every possibility to avoid the fight, and has no need to take it even.

[simple depot]

omni as it is can barely even kill stego with all the glitches an stuff with pounce ive 1v1 killed a stego before but exceptions dont make the rule honestly i think troodons are more successful at killing stegos but most the time that ain happening regardless

[thin mantle]

I mean if stego was done Justice it would literally oneshot everything in the game besides a couple things

[golden coral]

Are you... did you seriously say 1v1 an omni should even stand a chance?

[dusky surge]

Logically speaking, a stego would strike down a rex with a single blow to a vital organ lol

[golden coral]

It should take at least 7-8 omnis for one stego, it barely requires half...

[thin mantle]

It requires 2

[golden coral]

Stego is woefully underpowered for what it should be vs omnis/troodons

Troodons should not even be able to touch a stego, not even a sub stego really

[simple depot]

but hey thats how the game is right stegos no diffin deinos

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t but alright

[golden coral]

No. Deino can put up quite the fight, you're just wrong

[simple depot]

it does but alright

[golden coral]

So how about you actually learn the stats and how the playable works

[thin mantle]

Bad deinos then lol

[simple depot]

how about you learn the player base

[golden coral]

More importantly, it would be untouchable to omnis and troodons, as it should be

[simple depot]

if any 1 stego kills 3 deinos thats crazy

[thin mantle]

The player base doesn’t dictate balancing, players can be terrible at the game

[golden coral]

Don't care about the playerbase, I care about how the game actually works

[thin mantle]

Yeah most deinos are terrible at the game because deino requires borderline no skill to get value form

[golden coral]

Deinos are actual fish for brains most of the time

[thin mantle]

Basically

[keen plover]

A 3 v 1 is a deino win

[thin mantle]

Even if they’re bad

[golden coral]

See empty thagomizer "hook", proceeds to bite

[keen plover]

Unless you're chasing it on land which at that point, L

[golden coral]

Even on land if they coordinate, though probs harder now with less stun

[simple depot]

you should care about the player base because thats what can make or break a game thats why we got mixpacking an hackin

[keen plover]

Keep pressuring it as a trio by trotting and you'll win

If it comes back

[golden coral]

You clearly didn't even understand the point

[simple depot]

you clearly spoke to freely

[slim dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/hook-fish-black-man-black-men-fishing-gif-20476028

[golden coral]

No. But sure, let me clarify. I don't care how bad the playerbase is, I look at the stats of the playable, its mechanics, and how it actually works.

[simple depot]

like yall take every word i say literally

[slim dragon]

but it's deinos instead

[golden coral]

Which means your statement about stegos being so good vs deinos is just not true to how the stats work and the playables function

[simple depot]

the way it is, is stegos kill deinos

[golden coral]

I mean, you've not provided any form of actual arguments, stats, or anything to go by, so what else...

[simple depot]

slaughter

[golden coral]

Only if the deinos let them.

[thin mantle]

If the deinos just sit there and let the stego kill them….stego can kill as many deinos as it wants

[simple depot]

your exceptions dont make the rule

[golden coral]

Except they prove how it actually works, if both sides play properly

It's not an exemption to a rule, it's me telling you how the stats/mechanics work

The power difference is not what you claim it is

[simple depot]

what generally happens is if a stego sees a deino the deino either darts back in water or tries to fight from water gets crushed either way

[golden coral]

Yes, because generally, a deino is overall "weaker" when it comes to fighting

[thin mantle]

Then the deino deserved to die for being so comically bad at the game

[golden coral]

This makes sense and we've explained why

[thin mantle]

To be SO far away from the water that a deino could chase it down and kill it before reaching said water is insane

[golden coral]

But the deino can put up a fight and severely wound the stego, and if there is another deino, that stego will be in serious trouble

[simple depot]

deino shouldnt be scared of stego if stego is on that island or along side water edge

i think it should push back stego

[thin mantle]

Yes it should

[simple depot]

get back in land

and no have it chase

[golden coral]

Fine, you can think that

[simple depot]

alright we can agree to disagree i will say this yall way isnt wrong like ive said before i am listening you can have it that way it will still work out good. Is it the only way to keep deino balance i personally just dont agree but yall made good points tho

[thin mantle]

👍

[keen plover]

YOUR TAKE SUCKS FLUFF. GET OUT OF HERE

[thin mantle]

OH GOD NO!!!
I won’t survive this

I’ve been dubbed…..Incorrect

I shall now crawl back from the firey abyss from whence I came

[keen plover]

At least you understand 😄

[thin mantle]

I’ve been educated, enlightened, rehabilitated, and returned to the graceful embrace of truth

All thanks to you bird

[keen plover]

I think your takes weren't horrible. I just don't think Deino should be balanced like that. The way the other apexes are going to be set up, Deino being able to compete with them while also having the ability to punch down would make it overtuned imo

But peace man. Have a good one

[keen plover]

Amen

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/intensifies-toadkingstudios-zenyatta-overwatch-support-healer-gif-19484662

[cosmic pelican]

We should make the slowest land animal in the game even slower

[dusky surge]

finally

[cobalt dagger]

True

The reason I think of this or proposition it at all is because lately I've been seeing so many people complaining about having no herbivores to hunt

Perhaps if the AI was challenging, or didn't reward them with much food, or both

Personally I don't feel the need to hunt herbivores or to see herds of them moving around unless I am an herbivore and I want to be in a group of them...

But AI herbivores are of course, not what I'm looking for when I play herbi

More or less, I'm trying to problem-solve/offer ideas to satisfy the concerns others have mentioned, that don't include making player herbivores weaker

[dusky surge]

it makes carnivores easier and more common

[cobalt dagger]

True, though ease doesn't seem to make them less common/people still pick the carnivore class

Is the reason people want herbivores to hunt for realism or for ease? Perhaps both...

[cobalt dagger]

By this I mean, even if carnivore is currently harder, we still mostly have carnivores running around.

And, to some degree, I think it's the 'coolness' factor of carnivores, too. I have a friend who doesn't like Legacy that much, but doesn't want to play Evrima with me because it doesn't have a Giga, but also doesn't like the flaws of Legacy. I asked if the concept/species of the creature they play as affected their enjoyment and they said yes, yes it does.

Perhaps they are not the only one, who gets their enjoyment from the concept of what they are playing as?

There might be a lot of people who play carnivore because they like the creature.

I didn't really have any favorite dinosaurs much until I started to play the game ARK and then I really really liked Baryonyx and Yutyrannus and I'm very exited to see those here some day. I know in ARK they are very unrealistic with unrealistic abilities, but I liked them so much in ARK that it inspired me to research the real animal, and the real animals are pretty neat too.

I really love the idea of fluffy theropods. I'm excited for Therizino too.

More or less though, perhaps no matter how hard you make carnivore, people may still play it because they like the concept of the animal

[dusky surge]

Yutyrannus isn't being added iirc

[cobalt dagger]

True

Does not mean I would not be excited to see it though!

[dusky surge]

I mean, herbivore is underplayed atm because it's rather pitiful tbh

Most herbis are either below average or just bad

Teno and stego are below average, dryo/hypsi/pachy are just bad

[supple sonnet]

How was He quicker then me If this was true 😂😭

[slim dragon]

Probably a cheater

[cosmic pelican]

juvi cera starts at around 20km/H

stego is at 26km/h

[brittle tundra]

RX 550/550 series

[dusky surge]

nah, adult steg is faster than juvi cera

[slim dragon]

Oh
Some juvies really have it rough

[meager oriole]

Same with Tenonto

[dusky surge]

Yea, it is

[supple sonnet]

Yes and He did Chase without reason xD idk, Most "Trolls" I meet Ingame are Stegos

[dusky surge]

stegos are really bored because they do very little

when you're the slowest animal with an exceptionally boring lifecycle due to a bland map and dull diets, you're gonna find any form of entertainment you can

i honestly have no idea how they endure playing the game

some of the worst growth, for what

[slim dragon]

Killing a juvie cera when the occasion presents itself

Apparently it's enough to justify the hassle

[dusky surge]

you take as long to grow as a deino, except it's much harder and the end result is worse than a deino

literally just grow a deino

there is never a reason to grow a stego besides liking stego

but that applies to basically most herbis atm

actually no it applies to all herbis

not a single herbi is really on the same level as the better carnis

the best herbivore atm is arguably tenonto, and even that is pretty bad

or at least, underwhelming

[slim dragon]

I was about to say galli bu galli isn't a herbi

[dusky surge]

nah, omnivores are fine

they are free from the shackles of being a herbivore

in that they actually are decently balanced and fun

[slim dragon]

Honestly tho
I like playing galli, but I wouldn't mind it being nerfed in some way
Beipi needs an actual map to play on, and maybe a slight buff in attack power
The claw attack seems very weak

[dusky surge]

Galli doesn't need a nerf imho

It got a big nerf in ST, and I feel it's at an okay level now

Used to be 510kg and have no stamcost on kicks, it was a nightmare

[slim dragon]

Oh about the weight
I still find the fact that it's lighter than omni to be immensely stupid

[dusky surge]

yea agreed

it should be 510kg. Pinnable, sure, but 510kg

[slim dragon]

There should be stability rules
Bipedal animals are easier to pin and to knockdown than quadrupeds

[dusky surge]

could be interesting

[slim dragon]

But that would also mean omni could pin pachy
Which I feel isn't right

Maybe the problem is that pin is a guaranteed one-shot if you have enough stamina

Which makes it the only ability that is better for killing targets without giving them a chance of survival than lunge

[dusky surge]

i mean, omni used to be able to pin animals up to 1000kg, before pachy was added and this was reverted

[slim dragon]

Yeah
Understandably

[dusky surge]

having quadrupeds have more stability makes sense tho, would certainly be interesting

[slim dragon]

Back at the time I suggested omni could pin animals up to twice its weight because of the impact, but then they can get up and buck

[slim dragon]

Also some animals could have exceptional stability, like deino, megalania and anky
Because let's be honest, being knocked down makes no real difference for them

[keen plover]

Man I want stam cost back on alt bites. The amount of Carnos mindlessly rushing at Ceras and then being able to fall back on the alt bite

[cosmic pelican]

Agreed, but herbivores should still have a stam cost free alt when they hit 0 stam, just so they dont become defenseless.

[slim dragon]

imo every attack, including bites, should cost some stam
BUT you can still attack with 0 stam
BUT attacking with insufficient stam makes the attack much slower and dealing less damage

[cosmic pelican]

Doesnt that go against the devs vision with making combat more dynamic though?

[slim dragon]

It's a rebalance, not a nerf to attacks
Make it so the combat is more fair between carnivores, who rely mostly on bites, and herbivores who need to use their special attacks
It makes no sense that bites cost no stam while every other attack does
Also makes it so the combat isn't instantly over as soon as someone hits 0 stam

It should still be something that you never want to happen to you, but it's not a "become free food" moment

[dusky surge]

how does that make combat less dynamic?

wouldn't having all attacks cost stam actually make combat more dynamic, as now everything has a cost and you need to appropriately judge the situation to know what move is best?

[slim dragon]

You know what game has every attack costing stam and is extremely dynamic ? For Honor

[dusky surge]

Doesn't Dark Souls also have that?

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't call Dark Souls combat that dynamic

[dusky surge]

i dont play it so idk lol

[slim dragon]

It's mostly a strategy and waiting game

[dusky surge]

Honestly, every attack costing stam would actually insentivise people to retreat rather than continuing to facetank stuff it shouldn't

[slim dragon]

That's a good point
The more people are encouraged to not fight to the death, the better it is

[dusky surge]

it could also mean we can improve runtimes universally because "W+M1" is no longer the main way to hunt with some larger animals

[slim dragon]

That's true
Although I feel runtimes don't need much increase...
But I mostly play juvie cuz I'm bad so maybe that's why I think run times are long enough (or even too long)

[dusky surge]

juvi runtimes are an absurd overcompensation

[slim dragon]

they are

[fallow blaze]

Totaly agree

[stiff wagon]

#balance-feedback message for me 5/6 dilos should be able to kill a steg, but 3? The stego can oneshot a dilo

[zenith comet]

I don't play legacy. In Evrima however I agree that 3 should be enough for a predator like the dilo to be able to take down a stego if they are skilled.

The stego, in it's current iteration is built like a tank that has a lot of stamina and can take a lot of hits, but it also does an absurd amount of damage. I cannot think of a scenario where high defense high stamina high offense isn't busted especially when the tail jab covers the full 360 degrees.

It's especially laughable when a predator like the deino can bite 10 times on a stego and it STILL doesn't die

[slim dragon]

Stego isn't tanky, it's just big
It actually is the only dino with a special weakness

Which makes it the most squishy dino in regard to its size

[zenith comet]

Can you explain to me how it's squishy and has a special weakness

There's no other dinosaur of it's size in Evrima

[slim dragon]

Every dino, including stego, has health equal to its weight
Since stego is 6 tons, which is its logical weight compared to its visual size, it has 6 000 health
BUT stego is the only dino that takes 2x damage on its head, while every other (excluding pachy) takes 1.5x damage

[zenith comet]

Even if that is the case in the current iteration of Evrima there is no real counter against Stego

Now, when they add more large dinos then maybe

[slim dragon]

There's omni and troodon

Both of which can kill stegos fairly reliably in packs

But stego isn't the most problematic of the roster when it comes to having no counter

[tall bronze]

There's also the option to just go the opposite direction from it

Aaaaand I'm realizing I'm responding to an old conversation

[solar folio]

Stego attacks are very predictable and I feel like they are slow enough so 4 relatively good omnis can kill average stego even without vc
Yes it takes time but if omnis bait and act smart they can do it without losses

Yes stego rn is too difficult to deal with as cera/carno/deino but it is countered by troos and omnis

[high pike]

Does anybody know how much a troo’s 3rd pounce does? Like is it 1.5x, 2.0x, etc

[golden coral]

Stego kind of specializes in being good vs agile/small animals due to AoE tail reach. Those dilos would be able to pull that better vs a trike than a stego. Stego should mostly fear the large things that can actually take the hits and dish them right back, rather than small things. Trike is comparativley better suited for being "afraid" of smaller and agile things while happy to take on large things head on.

[meager oriole]

Which is funny because in terms of balance, Trike should have good turn too

Not the god tier turning that ceratopsians realistically were capable of, but one of two turns

Good alt attack or good turn

[distant torrent]

@random stump the reason why not many play herbivores is because they’re just too easy to kill, and they’re terrible to survive as. herbivores overall just need more love and affection from the devs, and things like cera and carno need to be changed quite a bit along with omni so they don’t curbstomp every herbivore that isn’t stego. the limited diet and survivability options of herbivores is god awful

but yes I would also love if camera lock was removed it’s just way too intrusive and a bit wonky imho

[dusky surge]

this, i would comfortably say that every single herbivore, including stego, is just worse than their carnivorous counterparts. I wouldn't say carno curbstomps much besides cera tho, it's a pretty trash animal outside of that one matchup.

[graceful swallow]

I hear stego annillates cera tho 1v1 both full grown

[dusky surge]

yes because cera is a 1300kg scavenger and stego is a 6000kg defensive powerhouse

this does not surprise me

[graceful swallow]

me either but they said even a pack of ceras

vs 1 steg

[distant torrent]

carno is a pretty good tank in teno matchups imo. rams go through that slam. a solo teno can definitely kill a solo carno if the player is familiar with the controls and timing of the attacks, but I doubt it’s going to stand a chance against two

I haven’t really tested teno vs carno thoroughly since update 6, but a carno could ram through the tail slam and start facetanking the teno. the teno would be left with below half health and around half stam or less (depending on how many kicks decide to register). that means 2 could facetank teno in the worst possibly area to attack it (the rear end) quite easily. that’s kind of why I’m not too on board with a buff to carno’s lmb damage

[dusky surge]

A buff to carno's LMB damage would be nice if accompanied with a significant nerf to ram damage

[distant torrent]

I’d be down with the buff if it was for playables half its weight or below like the apparent damage buff ptera has against hatchlings (I’m not sure about that one, just heard about it lol). otherwise that damage buff would allow for easier facetanking

facetanking the larger playables its apparently supposed to have trouble hunting

I now honestly just want ram to be thanos snapped instead of nerfed

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage tbh, it's still bizarre to me that teno tailslam got a damage nerf last update

i agree, the poor guy is not doing the boxer thing super great

because SOMEONE (cerato mains) wanted it NERFED

[cosmic pelican]

And some people want it nerfed even more

[dusky surge]

like, teno gets beaten on every goddamn update for no reason and it sucks

i assume its because it's a generalist and actually can punish dumb carnis

[analog mirage]

Agreed. It really didn’t need to be nerfed I’m just saying how even if it had good damage, Teno still gets clapped around by everything other than Carno which is it’s one good matchup

[dusky surge]

its sad

[analog mirage]

Because Carno isn’t meant for brawling

[dusky surge]

the knockdown timer reduction, mixed with the nerfs to damage have butchered it

[analog mirage]

I don’t agree with the knockdown nerfs honestly, like they are none existent anymore

[dusky surge]

i honestly would not be offended if teno got blunt damage on tail slam to literally fracture attackers

[analog mirage]

When we have scaled fractures sure

[dusky surge]

i still stand by this being one of the herbi faction's worst updates

[cosmic pelican]

Also the knockdown threshold on kicks, it would have a good chance against a cerato pack if it still had the old threshold

[dusky surge]

legit, not a single herbi is good enough to justify playing over a carnivore

and i include stego in that

[analog mirage]

Gali

[dusky surge]

omnivore

[analog mirage]

Glorified herbivore

[dusky surge]

ironic that the only good herbivore isn't a herbivore

[analog mirage]

It’s a omnivore except the only meat it eats barely gives it nutrients/food and also is not existent for it

[dusky surge]

galli is actually decent tho, legit, it's a well-designed animal that does what it is meant to do well

all it needs is to be returned to 510kg because wtf why was it reduced to begin with

[analog mirage]

I think for Omnis to pin them

[dusky surge]

nah, it always had a special exception

[analog mirage]

Which debatably pinning is worse for the Omni

[dusky surge]

the weight nerf was arbitrary since 510kg galli could be pinned

due to its unique exception

also pinning is not worse, it is really good for the omni in this matchup

the less the galli can move and buck, the better

like goddamn it is good

one pounce can spell literal death for the galli

[analog mirage]

True, dibble will definitely swap more people over to herbivores

Unless they somehow mess that up

[dusky surge]

dibble and hopefully stuff to make herbis less garbo

teno needs buffs, stego needs... an entire rework to deal with rex, hypsi needs climbing, dryo needs... idk something

and diablo needs to be decent

also migrations so they aren't mindnumbingly dull

[analog mirage]

Teno needs its Tailslam to be directional and it’ll probably be fine also MAYBE a better hitbox on kick but that also just might be me not used to Teno

[dusky surge]

gateway alone would make herbi better due to food not being in the same goddamn 3km of each other

[analog mirage]

I can use the enviorment

[dusky surge]

in the most dull looking environment known to man

[unborn iris]

If you're struggling against omni as teno you aren't using alt bite enough.

[analog mirage]

Alt claw attack spam isn’t skill

[dusky surge]

lmao

true as

[unborn iris]

It's the best defense vs them though

[dusky surge]

but not against a pack

[unborn iris]

Even then

[analog mirage]

Against 1-2 sure

[dusky surge]

in which case you're just screwed because claw does not great damage

[unborn iris]

It's better than wasting all your Stam tail slamming

[dusky surge]

teno needs help

its current state is sad given the carni rosters power creep (except carno who is just being bullied lol)

[analog mirage]

Revert Tailslam damage and make it directional that should at least make it better at fighting

[unborn iris]

Like more directional?

[dusky surge]

i'd assume that's what he means yea

[analog mirage]

Not lock into one animation in a straight line

Just Tailslam while moving to the side

[unborn iris]

So like 90 degrees instead of the 30-40 it has now

Or like an alt attack that forces you to move

[analog mirage]

Like, rn Tailslam isn’t moveable if you click it. You get stuck in this flat lined animation. Allowing it like a alt attack or heck a normal bite where you just do it while turning

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/isle/images/4/47/Teno.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20200208141837

Concept art shows it being directional

[unborn iris]

I feel like your terminology is wrong. It is directional now. You aim where it goes to a certain extent

Maybe the animation delay

Or I just don't understand, maybe.

[analog mirage]

When you kick you can press WASD to freely move around while kicking

You don’t do the same with Tailslam

[unborn iris]

So yeah. The animation lock/delay. Would be interesting to not have that.

[fallow blaze]

Hello @analog mirage
I like your ideas for the Cerato. but points 1 to 3 have only one weak point:
This only works on full servers or easy said 100/100

• Only on full servers will he find enough carrion to survive. Then
  his speed doesn't matter, I agree with you.
  = But on servers with fewer players he needs to be able to hunt and there they can't make him slower than the hypsi (39).
  that would be his death sentence

• your bacteria idea would hardly be used on a server that is not full. He will be able to use his mechanic extremely rarely.

• point 4 is good

but I hope it's understandable that you can't just gear a dinosaur for 100/100 gameplay😇

consequently, the Cerato is in good hands where it is now.

• He can't mess with everyone on his own
• He is more dangerous in a group = but that applies to almost every dinosaur

[analog mirage]

Debatable every Carnivore is bad on a low server

Carno, and deino can’t really thrive without other players

Omni and ptera can at least eat ai well

And playables in general are built around the idea of the server being populated and you need to survive against stuff

[fallow blaze]

deino has no problems surviving in update 6.5.
he has enough food in the water in 6.5
it's just boring.

I agree with you. update 6.5
made it very difficult for the medium and large Carnis (cerato+carno).
Hopefully the next updates will make it better.

they messed up the ai
that is the basic problem.
and that the cerato hardly gains anything from the ai.

[fallow blaze]

I didn't mean this as a criticism.
I just wanted to point out that the isle doesn't just consist of official servers.
and the only 2 dinosaurs currently having trouble getting enough food are Carno and Cerato. if it's not a 100/100 server.
But that's a problem the update created and I don't think it will be permanent.

If they implemented your idea immediately and didn't improve the rest: the Cerato would be unplayable for many players who don't like no rule.
the devs are doing a good job of accommodating that.

[analog mirage]

It’s fine. But there’s a difference between a empty server and a unofficial server. The issue is just empty servers which you can’t help. If people aren’t online you can’t really just make something better for then

[fallow blaze]

You're right with that.
and they have to decide:

• how long do we pay attention to it?

• when will we not do it anymore

• the same with Lagecy
  it stays? or will it be closed?
  But that's another topic.

[dusky surge]

cerato shouldn't need to hunt, it's designed to be an adept scavenger, and designing carnivores to work on low population servers is a bad idea imho

[fallow blaze]

I didn't say the Cerato was designed for small populations.
I said they took into account that he is playable on low and full servers.
Just like any other dinosaur. 😄

[dusky surge]

imho, some animals SHOULD be unsustainable on low servers

rex and deino, for example

[fallow blaze]

they have just taken care of that, because the AI ​​is only present 50% of the time.
Cerato's are starving and Carnos don't have it easy anymore either.
Deino is the only one who is happy.

[fallow blaze]

but I don't think they can do that so easily. otherwise they lose players. not every player likes official servers or 100/100 full servers.
there are players who feel comfortable on 20/50 or something like that

[dusky surge]

players who like playing on low pop servers should not be playing apex-level animals that rely on a large population to survive

[fallow blaze]

I wouldn't call cerato an apex.
they play it because they like it.
I'm curious how they will change the Cerato.😃

[dusky surge]

hopefully nerf it lol

wayyy too good a hunter

[fallow blaze]

they probably do. lol
almost every dinosaur has been nerfed and then buffed again, etc.

[cosmic pelican]

#balance-feedback message This takes "herbivores should be free food to the superior carnivores" to a whole new level.
But Im interested to see how a pachy managed to 1v1 a carno and win.

[graceful swallow]

probably by head butting it into oblivion and the carno was either not fully grown or did not know how to alt bite or something movement related, cuz other then that unless there were more that shouldnt happen unless the carno does a whole lot wrong

I think his point was that full grown carnos and similar dont have enough food unless they find a solo which is rare unless they are newborn

I dont have an idea for the solution but he put the idea out there lol

[cosmic pelican]

A pachy can only win that fight if the carno doesnt even know how to attack, and at that point it deserves it lol

[cosmic pelican]

Solo herbies are rare because they are completely unviable solo

[cosmic pelican]

Buffing herbivores so they dont have to entirely rely on others of the same species to survive would be a good start

[graceful swallow]

If you mean attack in general idk but how to attack at all makes sense, and idk galli is not really a herbivore but I do that just fine solo, and seen plently of solo stegs

[cosmic pelican]

Of course galli, the fastest animal in the roster, which can ignore all engagements it doesnt want itself in is viable solo. Solo stego is quite vulnerable to omni and troodon packs, but lets be honest, most people on officials arent skilled enough for that.

You dont see other herbivores solo because most of the time they cant fight back, nor run away from egagements

[graceful swallow]

Makes sense

[fallow blaze]

That's correct.
that's why you read in the balance feedback:

• makes pachy weaker
  = now he can't do anything anymore lol
  He is a glass cannon

• makes it possible for a dryo to chase away a carno, etc

and all that nonsense.

the Herbis were very good at defending (also at running away).
they were no longer like in Lagecy.

but because people don't control their dinosaur or just live for the kill and don't understand what survival means
they demanded more and more that the herbis can't do anything. simply because they didn't have enough skill in combat.

• that's why pachy lost his stun
  it was ABSOLUTELY NOT BAD that he had it: the players just abused it.
• teno has also lost strength, but is still not an easy opponent
• stego is where he was

most people on offis want to play Battlefield rather than a dinosaur game

[cosmic pelican]

<@&933486433342222376>

[meager oriole]

*Carno and Cerato

Deino is perfectly fine

[dusky surge]

because of course it is

[keen plover]

I do think the Pachy v Carno matchup should go differently.

Stun on fractures of course, but
Carno charging should knock the pachy down even if it lands the ram. So a Pachy can’t just face it. It’s another reason why you can’t hunt more than 1 pachy.

So pachy players should attempt to dodge the charge (which they can) and come in for a reply

I do think Pachy should be slightly more agile though

[distant torrent]

you honestly can’t get more truer than this. I try to avoid playing herbivores alone just for this reason because you’re likely to come across 3+ ceras, 2-3+ carnos, or a bunch of omnis that can delete your entire existence your chance of finding other herbivores that aren’t stegos are slim

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I have this same experience... And, sometimes, I've seen solo ceras or solo carnos not even TRY hunting me, which they probably could because I'm pretty new and not super skilled...

I hardly ever see others of my kind as Herbi unless I'm playing stego, and (unless I'm playing stego) I typically die to a group of 3-4 ceras or carnos or something. Unless your Galli, you can't really run, and with that many fighting is hard too.

Picking herbivore is like... Choosing to be outnumbered and alone...

(Unless Stego)

[distant torrent]

yea depending on what you are, most solo carnivores won’t try you unless they’re desperate for food or just want to die. a solo teno can kill a solo carno and solo cera (though it can kill 2 ceras. it’ll definitely be harder). a cera can just run down a pachy if the pachy doesn’t have full stam, and a carno might try the pachy too since it can’t kill the carno, though it can juke it

most people playing carnivore don’t run solo so it’s a rarity lol

(somewhat rare to see them because they don’t last long. they get killed by the bigger groups rolling around)

if you pick herbivore, you’re just asking to have your time on growth wasted by either deinos or the giant carnivore packs running around

[cobalt dagger]

Well, I have found some good spots to drink, the deinos have yet to get me.

I go out of my way to drink at ocean spring a lot, though the southern end of the southern river is good too. And anywhere else exceptionally shallow where I get a bit of reaction time.

And spots in the middle of nowhere where player population is low can be good drinking spots too..

[distant torrent]

there are a lot of good drinking spots but it does make you feel limited on where you can go and what you can do, especially on teno where your water drops insanely quick

[cobalt dagger]

IT DOES

Very limited. I feel this no matter what I play though, carnivore or herbivore, as no matter what I do my space is limited because I forcefully limit where I drink.

But I'm definitely more 'free' as pachy- As Pachy, I can run to the southern salt lick in the lemon fields and to ocean spring very comfortably.

[distant torrent]

I guess it does make sense teno was more than likely designed to be a playable where you stick around water a lot in swamp (because of the water drain, their diet, their vulnerability to omnis from poor blood pools and lack of ability to accurately hit them (not counting the messed up alt attacks we have now), and also the shallow spots in swamp), but deinos have made that impossible. well, not impossible I guess- you can try, but you will more than likely get grabbed lol

[cobalt dagger]

There are deinos in swamp but.. Not as many as in other places.

I actually can't find potatoes except at the log bridge in swamp

[distant torrent]

all it takes is one deino to delete all of your progress with one right click

[cobalt dagger]

But yeah I've noticed they make teno so crushed by deino and it's so bad because, not only does it's low water drain limit where Teno can travel, but it's so bad because I've realized teno is super skill-depedendent and deino is... Not. And to learn all that skill and muscle memory only to be helplessly destroyed with no chance to fight back, no chance to see them, and no chance to flee, is awful.

There is only a minor chance to AVOID them which I've succeeded at so far, but it severely limits where I get to go for sure.

[distant torrent]

there’s a single potato that immediately respawns when eaten at the border of swamp near teno rock

[cobalt dagger]

I actually don't know what teno rock is but it sounds like the right place for tenos

[cobalt dagger]

Unfortunately though I think possibly the 'instant kill' or helplessness is what attracts so many to Deino for.

I haven't played a ton of pvp games but I've played a fair bit of TF2, I played it consistently for quite a few years, and you'd always have too many snipers or spies - The two instant-kill classes.

[distant torrent]

teno rock is about here in swamp on the map website

[cobalt dagger]

Interesting... I'll look for that sometime

[distant torrent]

you’d find tenos there 90% of the time (I think it was update 5.5 but I’m not sure. I think 6 killed the teno population due to the messed up hitbox of carno and the megapacks of them)

[distant torrent]

that and deino is just insanely easy to afk grow because of the fish and cannibalism. pretty sure the majority of all servers are deinos

[cobalt dagger]

That too. I actually was on a deino just now and tried to hunt one, which I successfully killed but then a smaller one saw I was weak and finished me off.

It's hard to kill them unless hatchlings because the others pick you off when you're weak, so the large ones hardly ever get challenged unless they're already weakened by something...

But, most of the time when I play deino, many of them are very nice and social.

Sometimes more so than ceras or carnos I meet...

I don't think being nice and social is a bad thing usually, but it's part of why they are so easy to grow when no one is cannibalizing

[dusky surge]

carno does need a buff, but how the hell is an adult carno losing to a 70% cera

[gray barn]

sounds like a skill issue @thorny wave

[dusky surge]

literally the only thing carno is good at rn is killing ceras

it's garbage at literally everything else BUT killing ceras

a 70% cera should be a cakewalk for it

[thorny wave]

okay maybe not a 70 but like 85

you cant even run away from a cera becouse of the stam

[dusky surge]

that's true

but at the same time, carno still obliterates cera

unless the body buff is involved

[thorny wave]

even if youre faster the stam drains that fast that it catches you instanly

[dusky surge]

because that's all carno is good at

[thorny wave]

Not even my skill issue just seeing battles of other people I stopped playing carno cause imo cera is so much better

carnos dmg is a joke

[gray barn]

i dont have a problem with it

your not playing carno right if its losing a 1v1 to a cera

[dusky surge]

carno is legit bad atm, its stam, damage, general playstyle, agility, and other attributes all suck

the only thing good about it is the insanely overtuned charge damage

[thorny wave]

ye the charge is good but like normal bite is really bad

[dusky surge]

which needs a nerf so other things can be reasonably buffed

because they keep skirting around the obvious issue of carno's charge being the worst part about it

a 350 damage attack with guaranteed knockdowns against anything lighter than you, a hitbox that extends the entire front of your body, no timing required, that allows you to combo into a bite/alt-bite

it's absolutely nuts and is arguably one of the best attacks in the entire game

i'd honestly argue that, besides deino lunge, it is the best attack in the game

in terms of sheer strength

[thorny wave]

ii agree the charge should be nerfed and normal bite and stam can be buffed by at least a bit

[dusky surge]

i think the bite, stam and trot speed should all be buffed

the charge damage needs to be nerfed to like, 200-250 damage

[thorny wave]

ill rewrite it when i can

cause the charge nerf is an important part

[dusky surge]

@still quartz i dont agree that carno needs good accel, and I think its charge damage needs addressing over the knockdown range, although a change to both would be fine.

I still stand by carno being a horrible candidate for ambush hunting and he should be focused far more into pursuit/roaming with a decent trot rate and stamina over burst damage and accel

Like it being both designed as a roamer and ambusher while being a hyper-specialised plains hunter makes very little sense

like a good accel, good stam, good burst damage hunter is simply too overtuned and would be unfairly oppressive, so scrap the ambusher parts

[dusky surge]

@opaque laurel there is a compass, press Q to use scent and that has both an up arrow indicating north and a down arrow indicating south

also the roster isn't decided by what is popular but rather what needs to be in the roster, hence the lack of more iconic animals like rex

although rex is being added relatively soon to community servers

[keen plover]

Teno’s water timer should be buffed. Make it similar to Cerato’s

[distant torrent]

yes please

[south sandal]

Unless they have body buff

[golden coral]

That'd be because it isn't a finished playable and was originally, from what I know at least, meant as AI and not playable at all. So stego getting a proper rework with the kit adjustment, hopefully at least, might make it both properly powerful and fun to play.

[quick cargo]

Isent night allready really bright in comparison to Legacy

[plucky aspen]

very

[quick cargo]

They are almost too bright imo atlest on spiro but juding from the anti gamma screenshot we got a while back which i think was on Gateway its a bit darker there.

[plucky aspen]

yeah well have to see. i like darker nights over the brighter ones personally. allows for. A. Nighthunters to actually be a bit scary. and B. a bit of worry at night

[quick cargo]

Yeah and i liked another idea i saw in here about reversing nw to a old showcase with a lot more color and giving different dinos either good range or good color(or both) so id like that version of nv with darker but shorter nights

[plucky aspen]

yeah. cant make nights too short though. but they are just a tad long imo

i'd rather a too long night than a too short one, especially with dinos that are meant to hunt at night

[quick cargo]

I feel like you only need night to start the hunt and weaken the prey and you can then finish them later but yeah it would be way more nice to be able to do a full hunt at night as most other things are properly hiding then so you can eat and then hide and heal before something else comes to kill you and eat

[plucky aspen]

in legacy with dilo, depending what you were hunting that could happen, where you almost kill your prety but day approaches. it can make a simple fight incredibly difficult. and then you'er also exposed while eating

[keen plover]

The reason nights are as dark as they are is due to the the clouds. At least in the plains. You never see the actual moon.

Nights should stay as long as they are now though. Increase day time though. So if nights are like. 45 minutes? Make day like 75 minutes

[dusky surge]

@warped rapids i'd argue carno is trash, not raptor needing a group nerf

carno literally struggles so hard in fighting them, despite being a proclaimed "small game hunter"

[warped rapids]

yeah i agree like the bleed goes way too fast and so does stamina maybe also have more S diet cause omnis and troodons can be hard to find as juvie

[cosmic pelican]

Not like a group limit nerf would do anything since 1 omni can kill a carno lol

[unborn iris]

1 troodon can kill a stego too.

[graceful swallow]

Carno can decimate a group of 2-4 raptors if they're not terrible at the video game

[unborn iris]

And in reverse, 1 carno can kill a whole pack of raptors.

[dusky surge]

if the raptors are horrendously bad, sure

[unborn iris]

Same with the carno losing to a solo omni.

[graceful swallow]

Its all about aggression with carno, dilly dally for too long or go in circles/ size up for too long and you'll bleed out or run out of stam

[dusky surge]

not really

[unborn iris]

That was my point, it is the same argument.

[dusky surge]

much easier to kill a carno as an omni than an omni as a carno as it stands due to all of the factors

[graceful swallow]

carno and solo omni would never happen unless they are on a 2011 laptop and are completely new lol, if both are FG

[dusky surge]

although duos are best if you want solo carnos slaughtered

[unborn iris]

Mmmmmm... I dunno about that one chief. Carno can literally one shot omni.

[dusky surge]

if it lands a charge, sure

[graceful swallow]

and they do easily

[dusky surge]

but if you're in a fight, it shouldn't be able to

you'd literally have to let it

[graceful swallow]

its so easy to land a charge since they are faster then omni

[unborn iris]

I like how you guys like to use the skillcurve when it fits your narrative, but when it doesn't, solo omnis are just out here thrashing carnos. 🤣

[dusky surge]

if the omni is dumb enough to literally only run in straight lines

[dusky surge]

what the hell are you even talking about lol

who is "you guys" and what narrative lol

[graceful swallow]

ofc the carno will know you wont go in one diraction therefore they will "shoot" for you and theres agood chance they are hitting how fast they run, all it takes is good prediction where they are going, most carnos I run into that are FG will know how to predict a carno charge on a omni more often then not

no matter how much the omni abuses/uses its turning it can still get wiped

[dusky surge]

carno's agility is poor and its accel is too. Staying in mid-range at flanks literally forbids it from using charge or really any attack in any meaningful manner

if you allow a carno to start up a long distance sprint, that's on you

but it needs to cover a good amount of distance to even begin its charge

[unborn iris]

I can agree carno needs something to deal with omni to make it a bit more balanced. All I was trying to point out is that "1 omni can kill a carno" is not a very good basis for an argument. When that one carno would have to be pretty new to the game to lose to a solo omni.

[graceful swallow]

people underestimate how long it takes for carno to get full speed, its such a short time, people asking for it to be buffed baffle me

[dusky surge]

its accel is def poor, i disagree with it getting buffed on the basis that makes it more of the botched ambush predator, and I hate that

[graceful swallow]

I think it should have more hp rather then more accel

[dusky surge]

it shouldn't have more HP

[graceful swallow]

or more blood

[dusky surge]

it doesn't need that at all

[unborn iris]

I don't think that would help in that matchup.

[dusky surge]

i mean, its blood pool is not at all unusual for its size

every animal's blood pool = their weight

[graceful swallow]

Thats fair

[dusky surge]

so carno has 1800 blood, for instance

[graceful swallow]

dont omnis get slower as they age from like 50% to 100%

[unborn iris]

I feel specifically for carno vs omni, carno could use more stamina and maybe faster turn-rate while not running.

[dusky surge]

modifiers exist that can increase or decrease your bleed rate
pachy, deino and cera all have bleed resist which universally slows the rate of bleeding
carno has a unique modifier where standing, trotting and walking all make it bleed faster than any other animal performing these same actions

[cosmic pelican]

Me and my friend tested some fights yeterday, its more than possible

(I was the omni)

[graceful swallow]

Guess Im excited for my new build then bc thats a breath of fresh air

[unborn iris]

Then you and your friend are pretty bad at carno and don't understand how easily negated pounce is.

[graceful swallow]

if an omni can 1v1 a carno with skill, watch out carnos

[dusky surge]

carno def needs more stamina, although i'd argue what it needs is

• lowered charge damage for the love of God why does it need that much damage
• increased stamina
• faster trot speed
• bleed should just be regular, it doesn't need to bleed faster

[dusky surge]

it can, which is why carnos move in packs now

[cosmic pelican]

I didnt say it was easy, but possible

[dusky surge]

solo carno is the worst animal in the entire game atm, besides possibly pachy

[unborn iris]

I like that.

[cosmic pelican]

And no, shes not a bad carno lol

[graceful swallow]

I can vibe that

[dusky surge]

solo carno is just so unbelievably bad lol

[graceful swallow]

wrong reply but it works

[dusky surge]

from a design perspective, it's by far the worst in terms of cohesive design choices

[cosmic pelican]

All the omni needs to know is some evasion tactics, timing and reaction time, and the carnos only hope is that the omni messes up

[graceful swallow]

I like evverything except buff carno bleed >:)

[unborn iris]

The carno is just standing in an open field fighting the omni?

[dusky surge]

it's designed as an ambush predator with its high charge damage and low stamina, but also has exceptionally low acceleration, which inherently contradicts this

it also LIVES EXCLUSIVELY IN THE OPEN PLAINS

[cosmic pelican]

Its even worse if its just standing, the omni can freely regain stamina

[dusky surge]

the fact that the literal dedicated open plains predator should be running to trees and forests when faced with an animal literally a quarter of its size should already be concerning

[graceful swallow]

yeah cera is the more ambushy scavenger type, ive always agreed carno should be more of a roamer

[dusky surge]

i mean, cera's a garbo ambusher too

[graceful swallow]

not ina pack

[dusky surge]

solo

[graceful swallow]

from experience, yeah true

[dusky surge]

it's just really bad at it

[graceful swallow]

gotta find a body and anchor solo

[dusky surge]

it's options consist of
A: Regular bite that does very low damage, meaning the animal can react and leave
B: Charge bite that WOULD be good for ambush if it wasn't also the LOUDEST attack in the entire game

[graceful swallow]

charge bite is

[dusky surge]

I have had several ambushes attempted on my while I'm playing galli by ceras, not a single one has ever been a success

Cera is just a bad ambusher (which is good, it doesn't need to be an ambusher)

[graceful swallow]

yeah woulnt a carno have a btter chance at galli

[dusky surge]

It should also just be a terrible hunter

[dusky surge]

I mean, galli is supposed to be super vulnerable to ambush

Literally its greatest weakness is being ambushed

Because of low acceleration

[graceful swallow]

Never thought of it like that since they have very high top speed but that would explain why i died to an ambush before as galli

[dusky surge]

Which is why cera not being good at ambushing it indicates that it's bad at ambushing in general

High top speed means that if you see something, you can get away from it

That's how galli rolls

[golden coral]

I'm just going to point out, there's a difference between arguing skill, and actually looking at the stats, and judging what the playable is capable of from there. You can argue that it's a bad carno that loses to a single omni, but if you look at the playables respective stats and capabilities, carno is maybe not quite as "superior" to omni when it comes to the matchup as you might think. Skill, in the end, only goes so far as the game allows you via stats and mechanics, and as such, assuming both players play their best, sure the carno is very likely to win, but the omni is perhaps capable of putting up more of a fight than it should. On top of that, arguing that you can negate pounce, unless you're arguing for the broken hitbox on alt, if that's still an issue, there is little in relation to mechanics or skills that a player can use against pounce. Bucking, sure, it's somewhat useful, but it still mostly delays the omni, rather than remove it. And if you argue terrain, then you can't argue skill, because it's not reliant on the player being good. Being smart, perhaps, but that is not the same as being skilled or the playable itself having good mechanics.

[vital summit]

or that you havent goten any diet and you get negative bonuses does also affect the dinos effective stats

and i do agree. people say it cause they think theyre best

[unborn iris]

Exactly, equal skill levels the carno wins vs the omni, even with 2-3 omnis the carno has the advantage in the current game. The main reason so many carnos lose is because of the skill gap, a playable like carno inevitably attracts the players who are more interested in just being bigger and stronger.
Playing terrain is still a big part of the skill, to most every playable. You can't really say that pounce effectiveness should be judged without including how easily it is made ineffective. Terrain is a part of the mechanic, there's a reason you get knocked off on things while latched. It is intended to be taken into account with the mechanic.

[golden coral]

2-3 omnis with equal skill are more likely to win over the carno than the other way around from what it seems like, if we actually look at their stats, potential, and so on. Sure, a 1v1 the carno should by all rights win, but even 2 omnis present sufficient threat, as it stands with how the playables work. Also, omni is even more mindless to play than carno, so if there's a reason omni wins, it's certainly not because of skill. The main reason carno loses is because omni is overall still overtuned, while carno is undertuned, if we look at their abilities.

And playing/using terrain is not skill, no, at least not the kind of skill where you can actually get better at it, since it's purely a matter of standing next to water/rocks/trees and similar. It's a simple matter of "do not stand in the open", when standing in the open is where you can measure skill and abilities properly. Pounce effectiveness should be judged on the mechanic, and so should the counter mechanic. Pounce is not made "ineffective" at all, much less due to skill, because there is no real counterplay that actually relies on the player being good at their playable.

You also don't seem to be knocked off/down anymore, or so I've heard at least, or that it doesn't work well/due to the lack of any missed punishment it no longer does much to knock someone off in the first place. So if that holds true, there goes that as well, at least in part. And no, I disagree that it is intended to be taken into account, since it's not much different from just drinking from shallow water where the deino can not lunge, and similar. If the intended counter to pounce is to just use terrain, then you've made quite the terrible counter and design overall.

[unborn iris]

Terrain is literally part of the game. Why not just have a flat map, then?

[golden coral]

I should also point out that just knocking them off, is just a variation of buck, and thus, still not a proper counter. Since you have to successfully follow it up, which is where the issues lie. On top of the fact that any omni that has any sense of awareness, won't stay on long enough to get knocked off. So, it's not the knocking them off like that, that is the main counter, but rather limiting their dismount distance and similar that might work.

[golden coral]

Terrain is part of the game, it is not part of how skilled you are at your playable. Skill should counter skill, mechanic should counter mechanic, smarts should counter smarts. This should be quite obvious.

[unborn iris]

It's all a part of balancing the mechanic. And again how easily it is to negate pounce's effectiveness.

[golden coral]

No, no it is not, at least a good way. It's that simple. We see that with deino, we can see that with pounce. It's just not how to do it properly.

All you do is entirely remove the interaction, which certainly does not add any form of skill to the encounter.

[unborn iris]

That turns into an opinion. Fact is what we have. Which is what I'm describing.

[golden coral]

No, it's not an opinion

[unborn iris]

If you are talking about how you want it to work, sure.

[golden coral]

You remove the interaction, that is what happens

Drink in shallow water = deino can not lunge = there is no interaction

Stand in a cluster of trees = omnis can not pounce = there is no interaction

[unborn iris]

Which is a part of the game. Picking terrain and routes are part of the skill.

[golden coral]

I am talking of how it works

[unborn iris]

IF you can't understand that, playing a survival game.. then I don't know what to say.

[golden coral]

And no, that is not skill. Nor is it good design, because again, you remove skill.

[unborn iris]

Situational awareness is definitely part of the skill.

[golden coral]

Can you just understand that I am talking about how good you can control your playable and utilize it's mechanics?

[unborn iris]

That's not the sole definition of skill, is what I am countering with.

[golden coral]

Situational awareness is more so under smarts, paying attention and all. That is not the same as knowing how to use your attacks. Which is why teno requires the most skill in the game

Well, it is the part that is relevant here

Since I am talking about the interaction of the playables

[unborn iris]

Ok, call it what you want. In any game there's more to "skill" than just being good at the controls.

But that's not the only thing involved.

[golden coral]

Sure, but that skill isn't relevant to the matchup, not for the actual "how do I go about handling this encounter" properly

[unborn iris]

You can judge something in a sterile environment, but that's not what we play in.

[golden coral]

Except that is the base for judging anything

If you don't start there, you won't get a correct judgement

That's when you get issues like deino, or issues like stego being hard carried by the map, or carno being the same

Where you entirely design the solution around something that removes skill, and forces a specific use that isn't up to how good the player actually is at their playable

There is no skill, no timing, no awareness, no paying attention to sound and visual cues if you just drink in shallow spots

Deino is too large to be there, it won't successfully be able to attack, you need to do nothing as the player to be fine

Same applies to omni pounce

Standing next to a rock just means omnis can't pounce, it doesn't mean you now have mechanically used the right attack with reach, or timed your attacks to a calculated dismount, to get the kill

You might be fine with not requiring anything from the player, but I am not

[unborn iris]

I feel like your argument is so flawed. Then the purpose of trees, rocks, cliffs and hills are just for looks? You're arguing that someone using terrain for an advantage in a survival game is not a part of the skill involved in being good at survival?

You can say the mechanic is not well designed, but that is how it is designed.. and with how easy it affects it, it has to be taken into account. And I doubt that part is changing. Saying the mechanic is bad because of bad design doesn't mean you can just act like the bad design doesn't exist and balance the playable based off it's performance in a sterile environment.

If you want to get into semantics on what "skill" is, sure. You can call it smarts or whatever. But it's still being good at the game. Which is where the generic term skill comes in. If you are good at something you are skilled. However you want to break it down into what that involves.

[golden coral]

That's because you for some reason do not understand my argument at all. No, I am not saying that it's just for looks, I am saying it should be utilized, not to counter a mechanic, but to counter numbers. Use a rock or tree as a second "player", to cut off attack vectors, or make it hard for your hunter to see, or reach you. But you should still be able to "outplay" them. Consider this, an omni should be able to juke a carno in the open. Should it be difficult, yes, should it be preferable to run into forest or scramble up a tree, yes. Should you require a tree or rock nearby or otherwise die because you have no actual playable option, no, no you should not. And that is the point I am trying to make here. No, it is not part of skill, it is part of smarts, but that is more so down to us using those words somewhat differently. But I did clarify, that I want things that relates to what you can do with your playable, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Also you saying how "easy" it is, when it's not quite that easy, or guaranteed, is a bit odd. Terrain is not the be all/end all that you seem to think it is, and it can be played around, quite well at that, by simply tricking the other player. Which would be part of being smart, rather than skilled. I have not argued against using terrain for an advantage, I am arguing that the advantage should come from the terrain being a hindrance in a proper sense, and not as an "excuse" for the lack of proper mechanics or actions to take. And things can and do change, why else would either of us be here to argue for how we see things? And sure, let's call it "good" at the game then. In which case, being "good" by standing next to a rock or drink at shallow water, is not a very demanding or high requirement in my eyes at least. Maybe you think it's far more difficult, but to me it is not something I can consider demanding on the part of the player.

It really should not be difficult to grasp what I am saying here. Using terrain to counter a mechanic only removes the interaction between the playables. And that, well, it removes the potential for showing off how good you are at your playable, how well you can react to things, how well you can do things in general.

It's like saying it's demanding to avoid steep hills/ledges when you're a massive animal with bad fall tolerance. It's a given, it's not something you can argue is a "skill", because it's just... obvious and requires little from the player to do correctly.

The difference between "pounce and buck has an interaction where both sides have to try and outwit and outplay the other" and "just stand next to rock or in water so pounce automatically fails", should be obvious. In the same way that "a quick reaction and a noise to deinos lunge like carno charge as counter", should be more demanding on both sides for a successful hunt/escape, compared to "just don't drink where a deino can be in the water".

In the "mechanic counter mechanic" examples, the player has to play correctly with the tools they have been given to succeed. In the case of "terrain", you don't play, you just go to a certain spot and the spot does the job for you.

Unless I've missed something and it's somehow more interactive and demanding than my experience so far in the game has shown me.

[unborn iris]

It's like playing a FPS and saying it's not fun to hide behind a wall and peek a good spot. It's part of the game whether you find it interactive and demanding. It's just a part of it.

[golden coral]

So, because something is "part of the game", it... should be excused?

[unborn iris]

In this instance, pretty much.

When it's something as fundamental as terrain in a game.

[golden coral]

Well that's a take and a half I guess

Terrain is fundamental, but it can be done good or bad

It's not as if I said terrain should not matter at all, or that it has no place, despite how you tried to make it out

[unborn iris]

I'm arguing that terrain should definitely matter when taking into account playable's balance whether you find those specifics bad design or whatever. They are still a thing.

That's all I'm saying.

[golden coral]

But sure, if you're fine with such simple options, I guess that's okay. But you do realize it either means you have to always provide those safe spots, thereby entirely negating, by your own words, the hunters in this case. Or you have to tell the prey that "Sorry but you have to rely on luck and rng at times because we'll force you to be in a position where you can do nothing at times", and hope they find that fun.

[unborn iris]

I'm not arguing how it should be. I'm arguing how it is.

[golden coral]

If you take it into account, like you want to, then we get these issues

And how it is, isn't good, it's obvious