balance-feedback-discussion

[olive wraith]

I remember someone saying I don't play this game (or insinuating it)... and I responded with my more than healthly amount of hours.

[golden coral]

I tried to explain this earlier

[keen plover]

Teno doesn't really need strength imo. It deals with Carno fine 1 v 1. I'd say it's more Teno sided.

It just needs mobility changes possibly to evade Cerato

[golden coral]

Well, if you never played in legacy, before and after para nerf, you might not have seen how that went

[dusky surge]

I'd say the tailslam nerf was ENTIRELY unwarrented

On top of the knockdown nerfs

[keen plover]

Forgot about that tbf.

[alpine plover]

theres no way ur asking for the teno to be stronger

[keen plover]

Make it update 6 Teno 😄

[dusky surge]

Why is this a problem are people actually struggling killing it

[alpine plover]

teno is viable asf what are you even on about

[golden coral]

Just adjust teno a bit, I do get what they were going for, when it came to the tailslam nerf, but maybe it was a bit overdone. Also yes, make teno overall more envriomental maybe?

[olive wraith]

It seems I'm not alone anymore

[dusky surge]

If it had shallows, it'd be infinitely better, teno does AMAZING in shallows for no reason

[alpine plover]

teno wins against carno all day cerato only cause of bac bites

but still out does ceratos

idk why u think tenos are weak have u seen their kit!?

[dusky surge]

Then we'd see a lot more of them by the logic of people gravitating to the most powerful animal

But teno is scarce at best

[alpine plover]

no we just see people playing the apexs..

[golden coral]

Not so much that they're weak, more so that the others are overtuned perhaps. Though teno was fine before, it didn't need any nerfs at all.

[alpine plover]

thats just how it is.

[keen plover]

And Cerato, Omni & Carno

[dusky surge]

All of which are better than teno atm

[golden coral]

Teno always were more or less perfectly balanced :p

[keen plover]

All the carnivores are more casual friendly

[alpine plover]

they really arent but okay mr diablo

[keen plover]

They are?

[alpine plover]

i think teno just isnt ur expertise lol

maybe play a different dino xD

[alpine plover]

wasnt replying to you unless ur name is now mr diablo

[keen plover]

It's a discussion place. Maybe dm them next time

[golden coral]

Omni most certainly is, especially now with no risk to pounce anymore. Cerato you can handle from what I know, but carno is pretty decent vs a teno, though not impossible to handle, if performance goes your way and all.

[dusky surge]

Then explain the massive drop in numbers, is everyone not having expertise

[dusky surge]

They can reply, I don't mind

[golden coral]

And you think you're that good? ^^

[alpine plover]

i literally said his name brother are you delusional?

[keen plover]

and I'm not agreeing with it

[dusky surge]

lmao imagine starting a fight for discussion in the discussion channel

[golden coral]

Teno was fine before, it didn't need any nerf, it was quite well balanced

[dusky surge]

^

[golden coral]

Now it's perhaps a little underwhelming, but it's not "bad" per say, not like carno bad at it's job at least

[dusky surge]

the tailslam damage nerf was a weird approach given they also got a nerf to the knockdowns

[olive wraith]

Mob of herbivores hunting carnivores is fine?

[golden coral]

Tenos didn't go around hunting very much, it's not a good offensive playable

[dusky surge]

Rarely happened, and when it did, most if not all carnivores could escape it

Tenos kinda suck on the offense due to all of their best attacks being located behind them

[keen plover]

Teno still can do that?

You'd have to waste a lot of stamina first so

[olive wraith]

Not really... there's way too many Carno/cera mega packs

[alpine plover]

if u go up and read you would probably understand how stupid this sounds.

[dusky surge]

IDK what's with the aggression lol

[alpine plover]

you do also realise you cant force people to play dinos some people do switch up and play other dinos brother if people are still making teno viable and only a small percentage says the stats are crap then that means your the issue do you realise ?

theres no aggression tho lol?

[keen plover]

But stat wise it can still do that. Even easier than before since Carno needs to use charge and can possibly be run down.

[dusky surge]

If I'm the issue, why is no one playing teno

[golden coral]

No, majority isn't always right. And sure, teno is viable, that was never in question. It does not mean teno is as good as it should, or could be.

[dusky surge]

Where are all the teno fans in-game

[alpine plover]

im literally talking i havent used and vulgar langauge or attacked you the most i said was teno might not just be for you i dont think thats rude just might be truth

[olive wraith]

Seems like an issue with Carno than teno there

[golden coral]

Far as I know, the sentiment that teno needed a nerf is far rarer than the sentiment that teno did not need a nerf

[dusky surge]

what

[alpine plover]

thats completely your opinion tho

[golden coral]

What do you mean ,what? :p

[alpine plover]

thats why its so hard everyone has their opinion

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. That's me stating how it is.

[alpine plover]

but balance is what they are striving for.

[dusky surge]

"the sentiment that teno needed a nerf is far rarer than the sentiment that teno needed a nerf"

what

[alpine plover]

no its not lol the teno is literally viable as it is

and u can put that anology onto anything u could say this could be stronger but its not?

[golden coral]

Basically, I've seen more people say teno was fine, compared to people saying teno needed a nerf

[alpine plover]

like do you understand your arguments on this is kinda just opinionated

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeThere, fixed!

[dusky surge]

okay but my point still stands, if teno is so good, where are its players

[olive wraith]

More people ≠ right.

[keen plover]

Teno isn't played because it's not casual friendly. That's the main reason. All the carnivores are easier

[golden coral]

Well, you came in saying that teno is just fine, so

[alpine plover]

like i said before u cant force people to play dino lol

[golden coral]

I know, that was my point xD

[dusky surge]

it had more players, and progressively got less and less

[olive wraith]

Then I agree

[golden coral]

Because Goosey here argued that " if people are still making teno viable and only a small percentage says the stats are crap then that means your the issue do you realise ?"

He's the one that referred to numbers in the first place

[olive wraith]

Yeah... pretty sure that's a logical fallacy.

[golden coral]

Besides, no one said teno isn't viable, merely that it's not perhaps quite as good as it should be. Or could be, since it was fine before and didn't need a nerf.

[olive wraith]

I say it's fine now and we just need to see more of it... hence give people an incentive.

[alpine plover]

i mean if its not getting through to you lads then that's unfortunate.

[olive wraith]

What isn't?

[golden coral]

I think it could do with some adjustments, though less stats per say and more the whole environmental thing. But I also think the nerf was unneeded, and could in part be undone at least/adjusted with the rest of the stats.

[alpine plover]

your argument is complaining its not strong. then complaining no ones playing it because of how it is now its like talking to a brick wall

[keen plover]

I'd say it's not just Teno on paper, it's the diet builds that make it so bad. Cerato having just 1 carb diet means it's usually over if they want to run down tenos.

[golden coral]

Aside from that, well, we agree on incentives, we disagree on what incentives work :p

[olive wraith]

That's not my argument... bro xD

[alpine plover]

well clearly it is if u replied to it if the shoe fits.

its in relation to those who see that side of the argument.

[golden coral]

Well, teno has become less popular I think, though it could just be that cera is more popular due to being overtuned, and carno still having it's issues with scaling and all.

[alpine plover]

please use common sense.

[olive wraith]

I mean you posted that as I asked you to elaborate... so the issue was with you not being specific -_-

[golden coral]

I wouldn't say teno is strong, not weak either, but rather more or less fine, if potentially a little undertuned after all the nerfs, both specific and in general.

[keen plover]

Yeah. It's the hardest mid tier creature to play in game.

[golden coral]

But that could be more down to the general changes such as knockdown timers, rather than the specific tailslam damage nerf

[golden coral]

Hardest creature to play in the game overall :p

[alpine plover]

you didnt ask to elaborate just stop please. if u see a comment and it has a relation to your comment then yes its aimed at you. if not then its not?

[keen plover]

The reward isn't worth it when you can use a fraction of your brain and have less bad matchups as any other mid tier

[alpine plover]

defiently this is the reason.

[golden coral]

Yep

[olive wraith]

I remember asking "What isn't".

[keen plover]

I still play Teno though, but I'm not shocked that others don't.

[alpine plover]

my arguement is originally was mr diablo is upset with people not playing teno but again thats out of our control u cant force people to play stuff they dont want escpecially now new dinos are rolling out and new stuff is happening. then he started bringing up stats wise saying its weak.

[golden coral]

Sure, you can't force people, but there are rhyme and reason to why one playable is more popular than another

Now, if teno is less popular purely due to the stat changes, I don't know, but it is a reasoning that could be true at the very least

Though I doubt it's purely the tail slam change that would be the reason, the knockdown and other such changes are more likely since they'd have a greater impact overall

[alpine plover]

again do you know what balancing is.

i understand how hard it is for devs at this point.

[keen plover]

It's mainly because the average player doesn't want to be run down by the cerato horde. Anecdotal, but people have said it to me

[alpine plover]

just because something loses stats (for a good reason) obviosuly people are gonna be upset and say wow my dinos weak now when no its not your playing how it used to be and not adjusting to the proper changes.

[olive wraith]

How long does a teno take to get full adult?

[alpine plover]

yes then they end up changing dinos cause they just blame the dino and not their own gameplay

[golden coral]

Yes? I'd say balancing in the Isle has always been, interesting at the least :p

[keen plover]

100 - 110 minutes iirc

[golden coral]

Except there was no need to change the stats, teno was perfectly fine to be honest.

[alpine plover]

yeah well have u seen the amount of stuff they are trying to release as quickly as possible

[golden coral]

So it was more so balancing that seems... unneccesary

[alpine plover]

exactly thats your opinion!

congrats!

[golden coral]

Not really, you can look at stats and how it performs and conclude from that

[alpine plover]

ima stick to my teno and still carve up dunno about you!

[golden coral]

Sure, but that doesn't mean balance is good or bad

[alpine plover]

yeah u take it as you will mate if you wanna complain about the balancing and take it as an L then your gonna view it as that lol.

[golden coral]

Well, this is the balance feedback channel ^^

So yes, I will as a matter of fact discuss the balance of the game, that is the point here :p

[alpine plover]

yeah 100% thats exatly why im saying this is opinionated?

[golden coral]

No, you just seem to say that for no reason xD

[olive wraith]

Yeah... not spending nearly 2 hours growing to be run down by a mega pack of carnos/ceras. If the cost was less, I think more people would play it (which would inherently make it stronger too).

[keen plover]

Then you'd need to nerf the other herbi grow times

and honestly, that would be odd

[golden coral]

You do realize stats determine how things work out in the game, right? Not sure why you refer to opinion when it's a matter of looking at stats

[olive wraith]

I wouldn't mind.

[keen plover]

We'd have another issue

[golden coral]

I'd rather not spend any time growing just to be run down by a megapack

[dusky surge]

just don't play herbi and avoid being run down by the megapack at all, yea

[golden coral]

Maybe you're fine with the risk/waste of time if it's just 10 min of grow time, but I don't see the point really

[olive wraith]

Then you shouldn't play the game... because no Dino is safe from it.

[golden coral]

After the fifth or so time of just dying like that, with nothing to do, I'd choose something else

[golden coral]

Depends, deino and ptera are safe from everything but their own at least

[alpine plover]

yes. if a teno can hold its own then im pretty sure its balanced. which it can.

[olive wraith]

Ptera sure... deino has alot of cannibals

[golden coral]

Can it though? I believe that is what people disagree on, or, can it hold it's own well enough perhaps.

[keen plover]

I think the game should just be harder on carnivores so megapacks can't be supported

[golden coral]

I did say "everything but your own" :p

[keen plover]

I think a lot of it comes down to Spiro though

[golden coral]

Nor should megaherds really

[keen plover]

But also the amount of food organs give

[golden coral]

Stego herds... :/

[keen plover]

I agree, but they can technically get off on grass and one diet lol

[golden coral]

One diet, sure, grass only, not so much xD

But grazing needs its own rework

[dusky surge]

I wish herbivores had an equivilant to organs

[olive wraith]

I know.. but I wanted to reiterate that point :p

[golden coral]

Fair enough! :D

[keen plover]

Agreed. I still think organs should give a lot of nutrients, but not a lot of food

[dusky surge]

Yea, 100%

[golden coral]

Yes, please. Eat one organ, be almost full. What about the other nutris?! xD

[olive wraith]

So we all agree teno grow time should be reduced? Ok great... I'm going to bed now.

[golden coral]

No, not at all? xD

[olive wraith]

Shhhhh

[golden coral]

Not that I would mind if it was, but it wouldn't help xD

Anyway, sleep well!

[olive wraith]

Cheers... have a good one.

[steep echo]

I don't understand how this change in particular would make the dryo a weak throwaway

[dusky surge]

i dont think he was referring to you :P

[steep echo]

It is hard to tell where one discussion starts and ends

[dusky surge]

i dont know if dryo should have a climb tho

[dusky surge]

yea, we just gotta deal with it lol

[cosmic pelican]

I was reffering to this comment#balance-feedback message

[steep echo]

I haven't played much of the heavier herbivores but I would assume grow time should be proportional to power/max health

[cosmic pelican]

Which is the case already, but herbivores have either been nerfed to the ground or their carnivore counterparts have been buffed, either way they arent very good rn. Making them throwaway dinos wont help that problem either.

[dusky surge]

exactly

[dusky surge]

oh yea, in reference to your actual suggestion, were you aware that dryo is planned to get burrows?

[steep echo]

No, that sounds cool. Can it make tunnel networks then?

[dusky surge]

Uhh, I believe so

I think I can find the footage of a preview of it

https://youtu.be/RcQw8zhfrNg

this is the only vid i can find (very old mind you)

[cosmic pelican]

[steep echo]

Will burrows decay over time? A little worried about finding myself in a maze, or just a mass of tunnels that my pc won't like

[dusky surge]

unsure, we have little info on it

[quick cargo]

Thats a old filipe stream

[dusky surge]

i am aware

[west sequoia]

@torn elm how about a +%50 Growth rate on perfect diet

Seems a bit more fair then %75

[latent lotus]

@olive wraith k i like the idea but teno growing as quick as omni is absurd

@sweet agate having cera be low stamina is better then just slow. just because it’s more fun

[steep echo]

What is pachys top speed?

[stiff wagon]

41.8 km/h

[sweet agate]

pachy also hasnt got the best stam and attacks take stam - cera has more...so basically cera can run down a pachy til its out from running/fighting.

[dusky surge]

cera actually has a faster trot, because of course it does

pachy needs something to keep up

[sweet agate]

you cant just make things faster and faster - we'll end up with server ticks messing up combat again, cera can be slower and everything works out.

[dusky surge]

i mean, in the case of pachy, it's literally just slow

[slim dragon]

Ah, the good ol' days of 112 km/h utah

[dusky surge]

or at least, it was fine, until cera came out and wasn't nearly as "slow" as they made it seem

[steep echo]

I thought cera was supposed to be a less swift, more bite kind of carnivore

[slim dragon]

I wish the old speeds stayed so we could have pteras breaking the sound wall

[steep echo]

@dusky surge for the dodge buff, what do you think of immunity to grabs, with a tax if the attempt did in fact hit?

I'd like to imagine I just slipped through a set of deinosuchus teeth

[dusky surge]

oh my god i dont care

<@&933486433342222376> tell this guy no one cares about his AI crypto scam

thank u :)

he's in balance feedback too

[dusky surge]

ehhh, IDK, maybe? it might make it more complicated to code

[plucky aspen]

ty

[tall bronze]

The dodge buff idea is interesting, and I definitely like that it's not the usual "huehue make it Dark Souls roll", buuuut......I don't agree with giving Dryo anything involving resistances/immunities when dodging since uh.....that isn't dodging if you're getting hit. Yes I'm aware lag n such exists, but that will always be present and it can be worked around by just making the dodge itself better (eg; longer distance, speed boost afterwards, etc.) rather than expecting the player to get hit when using the ability specifically for avoiding getting hit.

[latent lotus]

@dusky surge yo i found a picture of you

@hearty nebula doest make sence but its broken af for a deino to run back to the water holding anything really

[uncut sorrel]

Also pigselx you want things to be able to get away from deino but in the same post want to make it easier for deino to bring people to where they have zero chance of getting away

[torn elm]

</3

[dusky surge]

i fight for dryo rights, even if no one else will

[steep echo]

o7

[dusky surge]

i want to leap off a mighty cliff as a hypsi and laugh i am glad many agree with the sentiment

[slim dragon]

I have one gripe with your feedback
I'd rather have limited auto-aim than a shotgun effect

[dusky surge]

auto-aim still doesn't do much

because the spit is a pathetically slow projectile lol

[slim dragon]

I think hypsi spitting in a huge cone in front of itself would look weird

[dusky surge]

it literally cannot hit anything moving

[slim dragon]

Isn't the spit hitscan ?

[dusky surge]

nope

you would think that, but it is not

[slim dragon]

Oh
But then it could be faster with autoaim

[dusky surge]

even with auto-aim, I feel that's just too... weird

like how do you make that organic

[slim dragon]

Aim line is replaced with a circle, or a cone
If something has its face inside the circle hypsi spits at it and blinds them

[dusky surge]

so essentially a shotgun lol

like that is basically a shotgun in everything but name

[slim dragon]

The difference is graphical

Also it prevents hitting multiple targets at once
Which I feel doesn't fit for the animal's gameplay

[dusky surge]

I mean, it's based off a spitting cobra, which essentially does the exact same thing hypsi does

It even has "spray patterns" where it covers a wider surface area so it has a higher chance of hitting the very small eyes

[tall bronze]

Auto aim also just feels cheap. I'd rather the game not play for me pls

it also just says to me "yeah we couldn't balance this simple thing so we went the cheesy route"

[slim dragon]

It's more like "we couldn't get players to have cat-like reflexes and aim so we went the gameplay route"

[tall bronze]

If spit actually had a proper hitbox as well as QoL stuff like not stopping you in place or zooming the camera into your rear, you wouldn't need to worry too much about cat-like reflexes. Auto-aim seems similar to I-Frames for stuff where yeah, it can work, but it's tremendously lazy.

[slim dragon]

I mean, even with a good hitbox, ability to spit while moving and a fast projectile, good luck aiming into a sprinting carno's eyes

[tall bronze]

In all fairness, a Carno specifically seems more like a "just get away from it" kinda thing due it it's speed rather than something to spit on

[slim dragon]

Then that applies for all of hypsi's potential predators

[torn fiber]

Hypsi with a cone spit sounds pretty good to me personally. It makes blinding an opponent far more reliable. My only take is that what if when you clicked the button to spit, it was the wide cone, but if you held it down for a certain amount of time, the spit could still be aimed a fair distance away. When aimed, the projectile travels farther and more of the spit could land on an attackers face, forcing them to wipe it off a couple times before it’s cleaned off completely.

Essentially, the cone works better in a pinch, while the aimed spit blinds an opponent for longer

[uncut trellis]

@dusky surge Your ideas for hypsy are brilliant👌👌👌👌

[dusky surge]

cliff jumper hypsi funny

squirrels do it irl, so why not hypsi

@uncut trellis comparing teno to pachy isn't really fair. Tenos stuns act as punishments for engagements, pachys stuns were offensively geared and meant you could basically be beaten down by a swarm of pachies

the issue with pachy stuns was that, unlike teno stuns, it wasn't really the fault of the attacker for getting hit by them

pachy could just engage safely and disengage just as safely

[uncut trellis]

That’s why I think carnos charge should beat a pachys headbutt, at least in head on collisions, it’s trickier with ceratos tho

[dusky surge]

wdym "beat" a pachy headbutt, i'm pretty sure they clash

[uncut trellis]

I was also ok with the idea of having to approach pachys with caution. They’re still weak and one carno ram and bite does the job, plus in groups carnos could handle pachy gangs

[uncut trellis]

Like in a head on collision, if a charging carno is coming at a pachy ready to headbutt and they clash at the same time. The fact that pachys could take that safely was kinda silly

Pachys being capable of handling mid tiers seems ok to me. It’s only gonna get harder for them once bigger Dino’s come in. I doubt they’ll be able to fracture adult maias and larger

[dusky surge]

i mean, i wouldn't classify anything we have in the game as a mid-tier, except MAYBE carno, but barely

like allo dwarfs basically the entire (non-stego/deino) roster

same with maia

it'll be interesting to see how Maia behaves, considering it's that much bigger than the current roster

@tall bronze i'm actually intrigued why you dislike the dryo suggestion, you seem to have generally good takes so I wanna get your view on why you dislike it so I can gain a different perspective

[keen plover]

I’d make it so pachy loses the trade but gets buffs in other areas

Pachy can technically just stand there facing a Carno the whole time and it’s a bit odd to me

[dusky surge]

Honestly, pachy could get the following

• Increased stamina/speed (not sure which is better, but it needs one of the two)
• Trotrate increase (this should just be a given)
• Fractures on headswing as well
• Stagger on fracture (should be universal for all fractures, including falling off cliffs)

[keen plover]

Yeah it would be great with those buffs, which would give it even more reason to dodge charge and try to come in for a fracture to stun a Carno

[dusky surge]

It could also be funny to ramp the hell out of pachy's knockback over other animals if we want something super unique for it, and increasing its fall damage resistance, encouraging an bastard style cliff lover who loves to get up high and throw things off its spots

[keen plover]

I also want that for dryo

Galli can fall from further and it hurts me

[dusky surge]

Yea

I mean, I want hypsi to be a straightup squirrel

[keen plover]

Let these small guys eat falls

[dusky surge]

Launching itself off giant cliffs

It's a small, arboreal herbivore, it's basically already a damn squirrel

Let it leap off cliffs as squirrels do, those things are NUTS

[uncut trellis]

They should also ragdoll for a few seconds after hitting the ground, without taking damage, that’d be funny to watch

[keen plover]

Hypsi takes like no damage from any distance, dryo can survive a fall from the ravine

[dusky surge]

Like, hypsi is also built pretty well to survive long falls, its tail has a large surface area to increase drag and reduce velocity

Hypsi has low mass and large, flat area

It is SCIENTIFICALLY the most adjusted for cliffjumping

[keen plover]

Apparently someone said dilo info was leaked

[dusky surge]

Wdym

[uncut trellis]

Oh?

[keen plover]

Not sure if I’ll be banned if I say it, but some ST leaked it? Said it in zags server

Not the ST member but someone who heard it from them

[dusky surge]

New ST members and they're already pulling this

God dammit, I'm genuinely disappointed

[uncut trellis]

Did the accepted applicants get their invites?

[dusky surge]

Probably

I know some who did, anyway

[keen plover]

Punch would know best

[uncut trellis]

Dang, that would mean I might not have gotten accepted:/

[dusky surge]

Still unsure about what exactly they were looking for

tbh

Lots of people I thought were shoe-ins didn't get in

[slim dragon]

Well apparently they were looking for people who leak information

[plain gust]

#balance-feedback message @brittle tundra What are your specs?

balance passes are always nice but if you're trying to run with a 3yr old laptop it's not the games issue

my 1070 is running max graphics 60fps

[dusky surge]

also "optimise the game" isn't really balance feedback

[plain gust]

^

And we're in beta, so optimization it's not typically a priority

[dusky surge]

also. optimising the game is good and all, but the game is still lacking some MAJOR content. Lifecycles remain basic and dull, herbivore gameplay is literally rock-bottom right now, the map is a travesty

A solid gameplay loop is still necessary

An optimised game is well and good, but it needs to be fun

And The Isle just has some major issues that hold it back from being enjoyable enough to justify months without content

[plain gust]

Ark is a major sucess and that was horribly optimised for ages, but people played it cause it was fun

[dusky surge]

Seriously though the current map is an absolute shitshow

[plain gust]

I'm new to the game so I can't speak to the map flow or design

[dusky surge]

We need Gateway more than ever

[plain gust]

Other than food placement seems odd

[dusky surge]

Ah, being new is good because it means you've yet to discover the many issues with Spiro :P

[plain gust]

I fell off 2 cliffs and died twice, does that count

[dusky surge]

Spiro is a colossal hurdle in the way of the game's total enjoyability

The food spawns all within one very small area of the map, forests are entirely barren and useless, water-sources are overly catered to deinosuchus, there is active punishment for leaving hotspots due to the lack of any good food, biome diversity is basically non-existent, plains are ridiculously bushy and hilly

The list goes on as to why this map is so bad

The cliffs are merely a part of the issue

Gateway addresses most, if not all of Spiro's main issues, actually gives more stuff for juvis to do, integrates human structures extremely well into the map's design and permits for the migration system to exist

[plain gust]

Has there been a preview for gateway?

[dusky surge]

There has, actually, stress testers (like myself) got to play and actually recorded footage. Search up "The Isle Gateway" on youtube for previews

I can speak from personal experience, map good

[plain gust]

best guess on release is like 2 months isn't it?

[dusky surge]

Honestly, it could be anything

It could be this month, we don't know

[plain gust]

I'm only new but I get the communities hate for long waits between updates

[sturdy mirage]

There are no ETAs. Content will be released when it's ready.

[dusky surge]

The next update is currently in Stress Testing, which is generally a good sign for an upcoming release

[quick latch]

lol sorry for late response but thats true but this animation is more than a few seconds long this animation makes omniraptor take its sweet time getting up almost like its in slow motion and not like its getting attacked by something and needs to escape and plus i would argue balance is more important than realism to a degree

[wide pike]

I've been seeing a lot of ppl that want to see Cera nerfed because of how it compares to carno. Imo I think carno is heavily under preforming for its niche compared to Cera. I also feel ppl are playing carno wrong and expecting it to be a marathon sprinter when it's more of a fast ambusher, I do think it should have more stamina but not more than Cera which is more of a persistence hunter like hyenas. What do yall think?

[dusky surge]

carno is not meant to be an ambush hunter, and would make far more sense as a marathon sprinter (although, I wouldn't say marathon, it shouldn't have nuts stam)

[wide pike]

Wouldn't it just roll the whole herbi roster then?

[dusky surge]

Not really

Carno is pretty easy to dodge

[wide pike]

But how long can u dodge for in the middle of a field

[dusky surge]

The only issue with pursuit carno is how absurdly overtuned charge damage is

It's exceptionally broken, it should not be doing 350 damage with the charge

[wide pike]

It should be vulnerable in plains. It didn't live in that kind of habitat

[dusky surge]

Remarkably long, considering carno has both poor accel and turn rate

[wide pike]

It's accel should be better

[dusky surge]

It is literally designed to be a plains predator, the devs have built it to be so

[wide pike]

Than ya its way bad

[dusky surge]

If it wasn't meant to be a plains hunter, it's failed at that too, carno is abysmal in forests and can't swim for the life of it

[wide pike]

I personally don't like the head but mechanic too. It's horns were pretty brittle. It's bite was also weak. It used It's neck mostlike to swing It's head like an axe

I think the whole dino need a light over hall

I think the main problem with Cera appears in groups bigger than 3

Which is a problem with the packing system

[dusky surge]

Honestly, the best things they can give it right now are

• More stam, for obvious reasons
• Better trot speed
• Smaller stomach (eat less to be full)
• Less costly charge on stam
• Charge damage decreased significantly

And that'd be it

[wide pike]

Isn't its hunger drain obscene tho?

Thats make it even worse

[dusky surge]

Drain would be the same

[wide pike]

Ah

[dusky surge]

Volume of food required to fill would be lower

Much like how cera requires more food to fill its stomach, but inverse

[wide pike]

I agree. I think some of the problems will go away too with a bigger roster when Cera can't just run around with no fear of anything but a carno mega pack

[dusky surge]

I don't think having animals to compensate for cera's absurdity really fixes much

Powerscaling everything else to deal with cera isn't really a good answer

[wide pike]

Is Cera really absurd tho out side of vom locking?

Solo Cera is not very survivable

It dies to a group of 2 of anything

[dusky surge]

Cera has by far some of the most benefits out of any animal

I have a list but it'd take forever to type out

To summarise

• Great swim speed
• Only non-aquatic to be able to alt-bite in water
• Insane bleed resist
• Damage resist while near bodies
• More damage resist while eating
• Fracture resist
• Excellent running stamina
• Sceptic bite
• Special ability takes no stam
• Fastest bite rate in the game
• Extremely good acceleration/deceleration

There's more but that's only the obvious stuff

[wide pike]

Hmm

Ya that's alot

But it is supposed to be a generalist and it did live in swamps irl

It should be toned down in bit speed probably

But I still think the problem is mostly in carno being "bad" rn it's design seems superficial and it Stat arrangement also feels wrong

[dusky surge]

Carno is bad because it's entirely designed wrong, yea

Essentially, it's designed to be a goddamn running nuke with its insane charge damage and knockdown, and that's where its benefits end

It basically is only good at killing cerato

Most other animals have tons of easy answers to it, because its agility and stam are so horrid

[wide pike]

^

[dusky surge]

@still quartz cera once did have a higher bite force than carno, it was completely horrible and got reverted fast due to how oppressive it was

It doesn't need the higher bite force, it already has a higher DPS on its bite than carno

[still quartz]

im out of ideas on how to make cera more threatining rn

[dusky surge]

it doesn't need to be more threatening, it's plenty threatening as-is

[still quartz]

hm
maybe carno needs a rework then

[dusky surge]

100% correct

[still quartz]

my idea for carno is like,make its ram only knockdown things that weigh less than a ton

[dusky surge]

carno is just goddamn stupid atm because the only thing it's good at is killing cerato and NOTHING else

it's terribly designed and fails at basically every element it should otherwise succeed at

[still quartz]

^^

[dusky surge]

like, carno should be a competent small game hunter, but it is absolutely not that

instead, its entire gameplay is designed around it absolutely nuking opponents with a 350 damage charge with knockdowns

everything else about it sucks

[still quartz]

Carno's charge should do more damage the less the opponent weighs

[dusky surge]

Nah

Just make it do less damage in general

[still quartz]

Makes it more of a small game hunter

[dusky surge]

I mean, 350 damage isn't necessary to hunt small game

Because that small game already has low health by premise of being small

[still quartz]

i 100% agree
it should do 200 to an omni

[dusky surge]

A 250 damage charge would be perfectly acceptable

[still quartz]

imo the damage changing depending on the dinos weight is good

[dusky surge]

That's just legacy style stuff and, imho, is really poor balancing

[keen plover]

Eh, consistency makes more sense imo

[dusky surge]

There's really zero reason to have that

[still quartz]

carno is more threatining to small tiers

[dusky surge]

Like, if it does 200 damage to an omni, who cares if it does 400 damage to a dryo, the dryo still would've died if it was 200 damage

[still quartz]

i just want it to consistently be good at hunting small tiers

[dusky surge]

Carno is threatening to small tiers by premise of having knockdowns and burst damage

[dusky surge]

And it having a 200-250 damage charge would always achieve that

[still quartz]

ig

[dusky surge]

As long as you actually balance the other parts about it

[keen plover]

It would still beat out Cerato on the basis of speed, damage and whatever else

I think that's fine though. Cera has its own abilities

[dusky surge]

Small game is small and squishy

Lower damage numbers are fine, considering knockdowns permit for combos to apply additional damage

[keen plover]

Thoughts on puking allowing cera to deal more damage?

If vomit lock is gone of course

[dusky surge]

Would feel a little artificial imho

[keen plover]

Fair. I think it would stop the face tanking later in fights

[dusky surge]

I'd have sceptic bite provide a status effect that forces constant puking, even after leaving

Just... don't engage

I'd honestly have a whole-ass cure (be it salt or some other medicinal plant) and just have it that, rather than killing the cera and eating its organs, you actually get seriously screwed up for engaging

Then reduce cera's speed or stam, whichever works, and make it that bacteria application scales with weight

[graceful swallow]

I think cera should have less poison damage, but more bite force then carno, and the carno has more stam and is faster

to put it simply

[dusky surge]

that just seems like you're making it even easier for carnos to kill ceras lol

[graceful swallow]

Im new to the game im just going off what I know of the poison and what the two dinos look like

[dusky surge]

cerato is much smaller and it has no poison

[graceful swallow]

ah ok I just think cera should have more bite force then since it seems it def has a much bigger jaw

[dusky surge]

i mean, force is heavily dictated by mass in physics, and carno has the far greater mass, so it makes sense to also have the greater bite force

[graceful swallow]

makes sense to me

guess its just the proportions

[slim dragon]

Carno irl also had quite a higher biteforce than cera
Believe it or not, but being short-faced actually helps in applying more pressure in a small area when biting

[dusky surge]

pitbull

[marble sorrel]

maybe tweak it so if what you pounced on runs into a tree it will take around 4 seconds to get up, and 2 seconds if they walked into it

[dusky surge]

@sterile shell nerfing stego isn't on the list, if anything, it's likely to be buffed

due to the soon-to-be-arrival of rex to unofficial servers

also deino shouldn't be beating stego

unless the stego has placed itself in the middle of the water, in which case sure

[sterile shell]

why not? stego is on the diet.

[dusky surge]

deino is on the diet of omni and that basically never happens
cera is also on the diet of omni and it literally has bleed resist

diet doesn't dictate what you can and can't kill, it dictates what you can eat

[sterile shell]

Well that just sound like bad design from devs then.

[sterile shell]

it kinda does.. cause if they are on the diet, that means devs want you to hunt them

[dusky surge]

ehhh, cera has lots of things on its diet it generally can't hunt because it's encouraged to scavenge

same applies here

stego is on cera's diet and cera basically can't kill that thing without vomitlock to carry it

deino is also on cera's diet, same applies

except deino can't vomit either because of course it can't

[sterile shell]

Again.. that just sound like bad game design from the devs.

[dusky surge]

cera isn't supposed to be hunting things regardless

it's supposed to scavenge meals

so by that logic, it should have nothing on its diet because it's not actually supposed to hunt things

[sterile shell]

You know what we do need.. An offical list on dinos profiles.. which devs have made offical.

I still say stego is way to broken.. they been broken since launch of Evrima.

I know.. I was there when it launched.

[dusky surge]

also, if we're talking OP, that's deino, not stego

Deino can one tap anything 4000kg or less, letting it do 4000 damage in one attack, as opposed to stego's measly 1250 damage
Deino has more weight and health than a stego
Deino is capable of complete stealth using water, stego is not
Deino has bleed resist, stego does not
Deino can disengage from any fight with water, stego can't
Stego has an extremely vulnerable head, deino doesn't
Deino has a much easier time growing and obtaining nutrients than stego
Deino can't vomit, stego can
Deino has access to water sense, stego does not

Stego was pathetic in U2 and U3 lol, it required U3.75 for it to start actually being a decent animal

U2-U3 stego got easily destroyed by omnis and deinos, even dryos could kill them with efficiency

[sterile shell]

Bruh.. Stego is the one dino no one can really touch... yes Deino can go into water, but that doesn't mean they are safe, as you said.. deino have deino on diet.. meaning water isn't an safe spot for them.
Stego can clap anything that tries to attack it.. Deino can't stand up to stegos tail hit, they get killed in like 5 hits.. Stego don't need to run from most fights, they can just kill the other dino no problem.
Again water doesn't make it so deino is safe from death.

[dusky surge]

Stego ironically has never been the most powerful in the game... Ever. Deino, pachy, carno, omni, cera, ptera, even dryo had times where they were easily the most powerful, but never stego. If stego were that powerful, we'd see them in massive numbers like we have with the prior afformentioned animals, but stego has always been a fraction of the total population, unlike deinos who have consistently had major numbers since their release

All it's ever had going for it was a high damage number on the tail, everything else is average or bad at best.

[sterile shell]

bro.. Nothing can't kill an stego as easy as an stego can kill EVERYTHING.

You go one vs one as any dino against stego.. you die

[dusky surge]

Stego can't kill anything if nothing decides to go near it, and I've seen troodons, omnis and deinos all kill them this update

[dusky surge]

Well, there's your problem, you're 1v1ing a stego

It's like 1v1ing a deino with anything but stego, you die without any contest whatsoever. Stego's only big claim to fame is that it can kill deino, it literally has nothing else going for it

[slim dragon]

(doable as both deino, omni and troodon btw)

[sterile shell]

You base most fight with 1v1.. to tell how good that dino is against others.

[dusky surge]

Nerfing stego in any way from what it is now (especially nerfing it to a state where deino can 1v1 it with ease) would make it so unbelievably trash, it'd be a shocker to see anyone pick it over the long-standing, vastly superior deino

[dusky surge]

That's an extremely terrible way to justify power

Carno can 1v1 ceras well, and it does everything else like hot garbage

it literally gets shredded by omnis

The only thing a carno can do with any competency is 1v1 ceras

Does that make it objectively stronger than cera? No, because cera can actually do stuff besides attack a single goddamn animal on the roster

Carno has so many flaws and the only thing it can do to make up for it is fight ceras because ceras are the only animals without the tools to ignore it

Justifying "who wins what in the 1v1" is a bizarre way of viewing balancing in a game where groups, environment, niche, ability and more play a crucial part

Stripping away 95% of the game to look into the 5% vacuum that is essentially playing on gm_flatgrass

[sterile shell]

why you go over on other dinos? The feedback was about how stego is stronger then everything in the game..
Also again.. Stego has been broken from the launch of Evrima.. that is Facts.. if you don't wanna believe it is not my problem.. but its facts. Since Evrima first came out.. Stego was the strongest dino. There is video proof of that.

[dusky surge]

it isn't facts

that's an absurd take lol

U2 stego was a joke of an animal

[golden coral]

Stegos can kill other stegos, if you want to use the "killed by own kind" argument.

[dusky surge]

Literally 5 hours to get shredded by the first omni pack that sees you

[sterile shell]

yes true. they can do that.

[golden coral]

So in that case, stego and deino are the same. Both are in danger of being killed by their own. And "cannibal" stegos aren't that uncommon to be honest

Just as a lot of deinos are very chill and friendly

[dusky surge]

Deino cannibalism remains frowned upon, ironically

[sterile shell]

Well most stegos don't kill eachother as Deinos do..

[sterile shell]

then you're just bad as stego if you die to omni.

[dusky surge]

I was the omnis

Did you seriously not know how easy it was to kill stego back then?

You missed out, literally 4 omnis could onecycle it

[golden coral]

Stego in early Evrima was utter trash, that's a fact.

[dusky surge]

Genuinely nuts

Stego was easy food whenever you saw it

[sterile shell]

I seen stegos back in the day kill anything they didn't want around them.

[golden coral]

Literally, four omni pounces shredded a stego in raw damage, before it could even buck. And then there were the thagomizer bug so carnos could kill one with no problem as well, perfectly safe.

[dusky surge]

I mean... Back in the day, people were still as dumb as they were now

If you knew anything about stego, it was the easiest thing to bait and dodge

[golden coral]

Then you were lucky to see such a rare sight, stego was utterly useless back then.

[dusky surge]

It still is actually

[cosmic pelican]

Thank God stego is getting buffed soon

[dusky surge]

idk if it's because i play fighting games or what but I can read stego like a goddamn book

[golden coral]

Stego is surprisingly "underpowered" for what it could be, and it's always so strange to somehow not see how much better deino, or even some other playables can be at times

[dusky surge]

its animations are SO choreographed, it's like a terrible version of a darksouls boss

[golden coral]

Everything about stego applies to deino but even more and better xD

[sterile shell]

I think the only reason why stego don't kill everything they see.. is mostly cause people prefer to play semi realism.

[dusky surge]

Legit

Current deino could survive with rex in the game, no problem
Current stego is meat

[dusky surge]

Or because people are always faster than a stego lol

[cosmic pelican]

Or because anything that doesnt want to engage can walk away lol

[dusky surge]

The only way you're dying to a stego is literally either
A: Not playing
B: Playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes

It is literally a big walking billboard of inconsequence

If you don't want to deal with a stego, you literally never have to, it can't actually catch up to you to do anything about you

[sterile shell]

ah.. I forgot how much this community love the stego and don't want it to be ruined by balancing fights between the two closest apexes in the game right now. Deino and stego.

[dusky surge]

I literally had a fight with a mixherd of KOS gallis and a stego as a lone teno, and the gallis were INFINITELY more threatening than the pathetic lumbering meatsack

my goddamn trotrate basically matched stego's sprint

[sterile shell]

Also if Stego is so horrible... why is there more stegos then any other herbs on servers then? hmm? I wonder.

[cosmic pelican]

I love that the community thinks that deino should be a god and stego should be a free meal just because on is a carnivore and one is a herbivore

[dusky surge]

as someone who literally never plays stego because i despise how terrible it feels to play because it feels slow, clunky and unfun, I'm surprised you think I like this animal

let alone love it

[cosmic pelican]

Because other herbis are basically unviable, carnivore bias has showed itself again

[dusky surge]

because every other herbi has been hit with the nerf hammer to the point of inviability

[sterile shell]

well all I hear from you is how stego need buff.. its so bad, please buff it.

[dusky surge]

because it will get shredded by rex, yes

it is literally pathetic compared to what we know of rex

[cosmic pelican]

Current stego will not survive rex no matter how you look at it

[dusky surge]

it stands no chance of survival and be completely extinct

which is literally the definition of a bad animal

[sterile shell]

rex isn't in the game now.. and we don't know when it will come.. So why are you bringing in an dino that isn't in the game?
OFC it won't survive an Rex attack.. That make sense.. its An Rex.. but its not in the game, and stego is broken now and been that for the past years or so.

[cosmic pelican]

Rex is stego, but better in every way, and on top of that, its a carnivore, which justifies it to be op

[golden coral]

Not at all. You can't hunt anything down with stego, it's one of the easiest things to avoid in the entire game. It's also terrible on the offense, unlike pretty much every other playable (even teno does offense better)

[sterile shell]

Well.. you aren't meant to hunt down things with stego, its meant to be defensive more the offensive.

[cosmic pelican]

Rex is currently in development, so it will arrive soon

But we dont need rex as an example of why stego needs the power it has now. If we nerf stego, deinos will have a far easier time killing it, meaning deino will lack any form of competition that is not itself

Deino is already way too overpopulated, imagine if they could come onto land without any risk

[golden coral]

Because a lot of the other herbis are in some ways even worse, or just outright unfun for other reasons, but I'm pretty sure some other herbis are more popular than stego, it's not as popular of a playable as people think

[golden coral]

I'm aware. You're the one that referred to realism rather than the fact that stego is just bad at offense as the reason why they dont kill everything they see. The reason they dont kill is because they "cant", unless the target lets them.

[cosmic pelican]

2 deinos can already kill a stego, but one deino dies in the battle if both parties are competent

[sterile shell]

its seems pretty popular with the community, as I see more stegos then any other herbis when I play.

[golden coral]

Well, it needs to be viable, even vs a rex. Something deino is, because it's the broken/op playable, while stego is not. Deino has alwyas been more broken and op than stego, at all times pretty much. Sometimes way worse (land deinos hitting stegos head from the rear) and such situations.

[sterile shell]

Rex been in development since evrima launched..
We both know that this game get very slow updates.

[golden coral]

Also matching deino vs stego is a bad idea. Deino isnt designed to fight other large/apex creatures

[cosmic pelican]

Its being actively worked on rn, you can check the devblogs

[golden coral]

It's a punch down ambush hunter with the best solo capabilities, that can one shot anything up to 4T with its mechanic

[cosmic pelican]

Its close to animation complete iirc

[sterile shell]

even though Deino are meant to be an apex killer? or at least that is what I hear from a lot of people.

[golden coral]

Stego is simply too large for deino to hunt, and because deino is meant to hunt, not fight, it doesnt get much in the way of fighting capabilities

[golden coral]

Yeah, you've heard wrong. Last I heard, spino will make deino flee.

And I sincerely doubt deino will do any better vs rex or trike than stego

[cosmic pelican]

Deinos only weakness is apexes, it can 1 shot everything else, it should NEVER be able to kill an apex unless it finds one crossing

[sterile shell]

please.. defend the devs more.

[hollow canyon]

Deino is not an apex killer, it's apex-food

[cosmic pelican]

Please read devblogs

[golden coral]

Well, they have said that the apexes are coming sooner rather than later, but yeah, updates can take their time, we all know that :p

[sterile shell]

Ok, guess I did hear wrong then. fair enough.

[golden coral]

Still, we got a few new playables somewhat recently, so there's hope!

[golden coral]

People like to take the scene in the trailer and run with that :p

[sterile shell]

yes.. we did, but that took years.

[golden coral]

Also probably operating on the whole "deino unlimited growth" idea that, last I heard, was scrapped

[cosmic pelican]

Even elder deino will probably cause balancing issues

[sterile shell]

probably.

[cosmic pelican]

Even more 1 shotting potential woohoo🥳

[golden coral]

@sterile shellI think the issue is basically, when you have a 4T upper limit one shot mechanic, if you also give the playable good fighting normally, why would you ever use that mechanic. If you had a 2K damage bite, you'd just oneshot your prey normally, instead of lunging and drowning them like you're intended. And due to that, deino can't be given both. If they want it to lunge, it has to be limited otherwise in fighting, so it uses lunge.

And limiting it in fighting, means it won't be very good at handling things that are too large to lunge, of which stego is, as are other deinos that are sufficiently grown. So you're limited to fighting them with whatever capabilities you have (hence why deino vs deino isnt the most thrilling fight ever)

[cosmic pelican]

I fear what will happen when stego gets removed from officials, hopefully gateway will make deino life much harder

[sterile shell]

Well another problem with this map, which I really hope Gateway will fix is the lack of lakes or places for deinos to actually hunt in for good diet.

Spino have been really bad so far, not enough land marks to help with directions and navigate. Too much bushes and logs everywhere, not to mention the random cliffs because of the thick bushes.. its just been an real mess, probably the worst map the isle ever had.

[golden coral]

I imagine there'll be far more lakes and ponds and other areas where deinos might not fit at all. Meanwhile, the rivers seem to be way larger, so more time to cross (and no way for stegos to fish for the deinos at that)

[sterile shell]

lets just hope that Gateway will be better then Spino.

[tall bronze]

Very late response, but while the suggestion itself isn't bad, I personally would rather the dodge itself be improved upon first with things like greater speed, distance, etc. to make actually getting out of the way of an attack more reliable instead of just two lil hops and that's it. Plus, a dodge giving you damage resistance kinda puzzles me since if you have damage resistance.....doesn't that mean you're getting hit instead of dodging?

[cobalt dagger]

I'm reading over this stuff.

I've seen stegos kill stegos more than once. My most beloved stego was flanked and killed by two others that ganged up on me. Deino and stego are both not safe from their own kind, at least in my experience.

[simple depot]

My thing is this right now I wouldn’t suggest it right now but later on when bigger Dino’s are in the game why should deino still be having such a hard time with Stego. I mean they was originally going to have a infinite growth for Deino. I know elder deino should at least be able to kill a stego. In the hope trailer deino was facing a rex. I think Rex should kill deino btw but why should deino down the line have trouble with stego?

[golden coral]

Why not, I'd ask? Why should deino get to hunt stego, it has a good sized roster for 4T, it's likely it wouldn't hunt para either, unless we get a rather small para. I don't believe deino, especially not with its rather irritating one shot mechanic, should be allowed to hunt things that take too long to grow. Even 4T is quite harsh to just lose outright to a deino you had no real counters to. They did scrap the infinite growth, from what I know, and the trailer, only really shows them roaring at each other, people tend to take that to mean a fight when it doesn't.

There's no real reason to think deino should punch up to 5-6+T, especially not if stego also gets an upsize to 7-8T, which would require quite a massive deino to lunge and drown that.

[simple depot]

If there was a sort of push an pull mechanic where u can struggle by button mashing or whatever to not get dragged in the water put in later on then I feel like deino should get the chance to try an lunge an drag a stego. With this current mechanic that just one shots then no but as for just fighting off a stego yes. Stegos will bully Deinos in their own environment an have no fear of the waters edge. What if for example deino has 100% hp an stego has 150% hp but deino has 50 - 60 attack while stego has 30-45 attack. That makes it so stego can’t bully a deino in the water while a deino can’t easily kill a stego on land an wouldn’t be able to bully him because he got the hp to survive. This won’t make deino the new overlord an make stego have enough hp to survive while a full hp deino an full hp stego, deino could probably win but stego wouldn’t even need to stay in the fight in the first place an this way stegos could also cross waters without dying an can get away on land. The point of lowering attack is to not bully deino in water but land they can take advantage of deino they got more hp maybe not as much attack but they can still work a deino . Deino shouldn’t be kings of land an water but stego shouldn’t bully deinos in water an have no fear of it. A croc isnt going all the way on to fight a lion or buffalo an thinking it’s going to win but by the water is different. But later down the line I don’t want something like a spino also just becoming the overlord of the water an destroying deino would more so want that fight like carno vs cera or 50/50 some crocs are apex’s of their own environment

[brittle tundra]

AMD Ryzen 5 5600 6-Core Processor 3.50 GHz
16.0 GB RAM / 1 TB storage
64-bit operating system, x64-based processor

[golden coral]

Last I heard, if they did add such a mechanic, it would be stego pulling the deino, not the other way around. So I don't know, I don't think they intended for deino to hunt larger prey, even like that. But sure, if there were more to the mechanic than currently, I'd be open for larger prey items, as long as those would be more rare and less likely overall.

I'm not sure I understand your concept there with hp/attack? Maybe I'm just too tired by now to get it, but I'd appreciate it if you could clarify. In any case, stegos can only really "bully" deinos that let them, or in some of the narrower rivers due to questionable map design. The issue of narrow rivers will most likely be fixed with the new map, at which point deinos can entirely just avoid stegos.

For the whole "bullying at the shoreline", well, rex, trike, and others are likely to do that too, so I'm not sure why stego should be exempt unless it's clearly weaker than those are, and from what we know, stego won't be that much weaker. But from what I've heard, spino will indeed be the "boss" of deino, and deinos best bet in that case is to swim away.

[simple depot]

I was saying I feel like stego health should be raised but lower it’s attack while deino attack should be raised. Not by a crazy amount that’s why I said for example if deino attack was 50-60 stego attack should be 30-45 . Saying that stego shouldn’t be pushing deinos away deinos should be pushing stegos away from the shoreline. But we wouldn’t raise deino attack to the point where it can destroy stego making deino the new ruler on land an just keeping the same problem just switching the animal. Stego should have more health where if it gets attacked by deino at the waters edge it can survive an run away but also less damage so it doesn’t sit an bully croc in its own environment. A stego shouldn’t be able to bully a full grown deino but a deino doesn’t need to kill a full grown stego as the stego has enough health to run away an if a deino comes up on land stego can still work a deino an possibly force deino back to the water. Deino was a large animal an tackled big Dino’s it was bigger than stego an in its own right was a apex predator I know the holy trinity of the isle is giga Rex an spino but adding deino was adding a new apex of its own environment. I feel like concept of deino in the isle more like a caiman in South America when I feel like deino should be treated like a saltwater croc. It’s as big as all the other big Dino’s an is only able to fight things smaller than it not even around its class. Having deino still not be able to fight stego later when bigger Dino’s are here I feel like doesn’t do deino justice as it’s not even as big an powerful as it could be for balancing reasons of course. I know that’s what they plan for spino to be the boss of the water. I just think giving spino something in the water to compete with is better just like on land even though Rex maybe pound for pound the strongest carnivore in the isle it’s going to be competing with giga

[dusky surge]

that is a ridiculous nerf

deino's bite atm is 500, stego's tailswing is 1250

if deino is 50-60 to stego's 30-45, that'd mean deino would literally have a biteforce greater than 1000 while stego has a pathetic tail that can't do that, or some other absurd numbers

a stego should absolutely be able to survive and fight off a full-grown deino

unless the stego is literally in the deino's territory, which is deep waters

if stego had less damage, it'd have even harder of a time surviving things like rex

giving stego more health and less attack just makes it more of a walking meatsack

if stego has to run away from a deino, it will stand no chance against a rex. Stego must be able to take on deino and win

@cobalt dagger The AI spawning near carnivores thing is literally what enabled stuff like gigas and rexes to AFK at corners of the map and never interact with anything until fully grown

If you want to never see a juvi again, then legacy's AI system is for you

because you are encouraged to avoid player interaction like the plague

[golden coral]

@dusky surge Here's a stego take to make the deino mains stop complaining.

Decrease weight to 4T so it can be lunged. Decrease head multiplier from 2x to 1.75. Decrease growth time to 3-3.5 hours with perfect diet (I believe deino is at 4.5 with perfect diet). Increase bleed resistance by 100% so it has effective 8K blood. Increase damage to 1800 so it one-shots carno on body hit (3 HTK on mirror body, 2 on head). Increase turn rate/speed a little.

This would be applied temporarily as a "nerf" until stego is sent to unofficials, where it would be balanced properly together with rex and trike.

[dusky surge]

Damage too high it can kill things, bad

[golden coral]

But it can be oneshot with lunge at least!

[dusky surge]

But letting stego get lunged solves very little

[golden coral]

So no more evil stegos guarding the shorelines

[dusky surge]

It just makes deino even more brainless

[golden coral]

I know, the point was to make the deinos stop complaining :p

[dusky surge]

They'll find a way

[simple depot]

I don’t think stego should get lunged but stegos the way they currently are isn’t good stego should be able to fight off a deino on land not by the shore line I definitely may have screwed up the numbers but if deino bite is 500 deino needs to have high enough damage for stegos to think twice about camping water an not being scared of it an jus standing on islands bullying deinos right in deinos element. Deino doesn’t need to simply swim away the stego is by the waters edge it should push stego away. Stego needs to be beefy enough where it can survive an just run away , it can fight deinos but not deino extinguisher. Deino needs to have the same idea of cera when it comes to being around water maybe even give it a defensive buff in or on water shore line to encourage deino players to stay by water an to fight off stegos who aren’t scared of it (JUST A THOUGHT) but when deino wants to crawl all the way on land stego could fight it away. The way things currently sit I think the community is fine with deino being like under the apex’s in away me personally I feel like deino in its own right is a apex in its own environment in pot they got a deino mod it loses to Rex does well against spino but can lose an idk about giga an Can a stego. But there’s so many other Dino’s I don’t hear about ppl complaining how a deino kills a stego in pot. Same here when all the other Dino’s come why have deinos not be able to potentially kill a stego . If they don’t add some sort of push an pull mechanic when deino lunges where prey can struggle then at least have deino be able to brawl against things in its own weight class.

[dusky surge]

okay, first of all

paragraph please it's so much text

second of all, deino does not need to push stego away, it can easily retreat into its water safely and unharmed, there is nothing threatening about a stego swinging at water deino doesn't need to access

also PoT is a weird-ass comparison since it is literally an entirely different game with different balancing philosiphies

Take it this way. Deino has never once needed to interact with stego, stego can't avoid interacting with deino (because it has to drink eventually), therefore why should deino also have the advantage against this animal that's actually too big for it to hunt in its conventional manner

[golden coral]

I don't think referring to balance in another game, especially when it involves mods, do anything useful for this discussion honestly

There's no real need for deino to go after stegos, or be worried about being "bullied" at the shoreline. Especially since I can more or less guarantee that trikes, rexes, shants, gigas, and so on, and spinos especially, will also bully deinos at the shoreline

So the idea that stego specifically shouldn't, just seems arbitrary because .. stego shouldn't be that powerful or something?

[simple depot]

Sorry I was on the phone but see thats where I just disagree with because the deino just needs to swim away i dont think it should have to be force to move by a stego an how players are that idea is how we end up with so many dead deinos at the shore because deino players arent doing that an end up complaining in her anyway. Deino is a large animal that took on other large animals. Anyone could avoid deino theyre plenty of places deinos dont go that people dont go an there are shallow an glitch areas everywhere but speaking for future sense like gateway their will be more areas that deinos wont be that stegos will drink all sorts of water sources.

[golden coral]

That still seems like an arbitrary choice just against stego

[dusky surge]

Deinos die on shore so much because they literally take stupid fights

[golden coral]

Since there'll be other large animals that will just do what stego does

[dusky surge]

Deinos are notorious for literally bumrushing any and everything within 20m of the water

[golden coral]

Deino is probably not squaring up against a shant, in any scenario, so it will just stomp the deino flat

[simple depot]

Also the reason i compared pot was because of just the dynamic from all of those apexs not really how balance an how pvp works in that game. Deino is big enough to square up against a stego of course there are animals i believe deino should fail to but I also believe deino is a apex it self which it really is. I know plans are its getting bullied by spino my personal opinion is that it should be able to give spino some competition. As of right now i feel like it should be more deino can fight stego an stego can fight deino in different situations. What is currently is stego is a deino killer which it shouldnt be deino is bigger than it an doesnt need to kill stego but push it from the shoreline an not have it camp it with no worries. i feel like almost every dino should have something to be worried about. i feel like a stego vs deino fight should play out by the water deino an stego fight but stego leaves but if a deino thinks about going on land with stego its getting pushed back into the water

i dont see the problem with that both shouldnt be able to really kill each other

[dusky surge]

that's already how it is

neither can consistently kill the other

stego can only kill deino if deino attacks it first, or enters its territory

same in both ways

[simple depot]

i know what your saying but the way it currently is has dead deinos lined up on the shore lines. We could say dumb deinos players who shouldnt be fighting stegos but my whole arguement more so is the reverse stegos shouldnt be fighting deinos. Stegos should avoid deinos an deinos got no business on land but stego players shouldnt stand on that island lining bodies of deinos up. Thats where im at i think deino should be able to box a stego away from the water

[dusky surge]

the reason deinos die in such mass to stego is due to overconfidence and stupidity. They run at a stego on land without a plan and die for it

The bodies on the shore are either caused by cannibals, which is generally the most likely cause, and rarely stegos, when deinos decide to attack them without thought

Cannibals kill other deinos and drag the bodies onto shore to eat, it's very common

[golden coral]

That particular island spot won't be a thing on the new map most likely

So there won't be much, if any, ability for stegos to go beyond the shoreline

In which case, the deino can just swim across and chill on the other side

Good luck to any stego foolish enough to try and swim across the wider rivers

[dusky surge]

dead as hell

[simple depot]

I mean but for this discussion im talking about the bodies made from stegos which do happen. I dont think the mindset of deino players when seeing a stego at the shore line getting a drink of water and runing away from it because they know its a death sentence is what i want. I mean even in the concept art of deino it was stalking stegos drinking water. My opinion is i just want deino to be able to box stego, doesnt need to be a stego killing machine but deino should be able to hang with all the big dogs coming. The way im hearing how deino will be is almost like a pseudo apex or like right below that tier.

i dont think we need to have a discussion on every dino deino should lose to im really talkin stego

[dusky surge]

stego should beat deino

deino is a small-game hunter through and through

everything about it is built to punch down

that which it can't fight, it evades by being the fastest swimmer in the game, or just hiding underwater

stego poses zero threat to a deino that doesn't want to fight it

[simple depot]

this is where we just disagree because big crocs like deino take down large prey. It was bigger than stego an had a stronger bite force than trex. I dont think an ambush predator that could completely catch a stego off guard should lose to stego. As for outright kill debatable but not lose. Deino wasnt built like a gharial with a small snout it has bulky skull to take on large prey anything that comes to water. Deino isnt as strong as it could be for game balance. I dont see why not add a new apex to the game

what balance does deino disturb?

[dusky surge]

surprisingly, most of it

far more than stego could ever hope to

[simple depot]

I mean i know right now how things are but when everything gets added say we get all our 50+ dinos an we get things that can hunt stego an kill deino. What would be the big issue making deino how it should be. Like my pot example It could still lose to rex shant trike. It could give spino a hard time an make spino have some competition an be a whole new apex to the game would that take away anything from anyone else?

[slim dragon]

If deino was balanced like a modern croc it could drown a shant
Luckily, square cube law exists

[slim dragon]

Deino is already the most oppressive critter in the game, and it had been this way since launch. The mere existence of deino makes it so drinking in deep water is absolutely forbidden for anything under 4 tons.
It is OP to the point of the only way to survive against a deino is to never meet one.
If deino has to get buffs, then it has to get them AFTER lunge is nerfed into an actually bearable ability and not a one-click win.

[simple depot]

If deino gets put on the same level it could be with all the other apex’s not saying who wins what. What would be difference between getting killed by a deino or getting killed by a spino

[golden coral]

Deino is not meant to "hang with the big guys" though. It's not an apex, as it stands. Nor is stego. They're both potentially being upped to apex power, but that would still mean that stego is up there in power with the other big guys as well. So that'd still put stego off limits to a deino, just like a trike or anky would be.

[slim dragon]

The difference is you can see the spino coming

If spino ends up being an ambusher then the devs really don't know what they're doing

[golden coral]

Please don't refer to irl biteforce and stuff. This is a game and is balanced as such, so any irl references are more or less useless, depending on how accurate any one playable is to real life (most do things they could never do irl so...). And again, why not? Sure, deino takes down large prey, but 4T is already large. Even larger is not needed for deino. And stego isn't as strong as it could be for game balance as well, so there's that too to take into account.

[golden coral]

In that case you could just as well also put stego up there with the other apexes. So why would it matter if it's a stego or trike that you can't touch?

If you make deino how it should be, you'd also make stego how it should be, which means a stego is still going to be very much off limits

[simple depot]

Fair but it look like spino had some sort of lunge in the concept art an let’s be honest we see deino players coming anyway only a few know how to play it. Also in game currently yes it’s getting crushed by any apex . My point is that deino should be able to brawl a stego not every animal fight gotta be a hunt where one ends up dead by it can least get stego out it’s territory if it’s in it

[dusky surge]

its jumping out at beipis, who would more than likely die from a single attack from spino regardless

[slim dragon]

Deino isn't a brawler
Stego is
That's where it ends

[slim dragon]

I'd be okay with spino having a 100 damage lunge

[dusky surge]

i'd be okay with spino having a bite that kills beipi lol

[simple depot]

Maybe deino doesn’t need to hunt apex’s or say for instance stego but it should be able to brawl a stego

[dusky surge]

why

seriously though, why does it need to

[golden coral]

But why brawl if it can't hunt? And why does it need to brawl a stego but not a trike or shant, or rex?

[slim dragon]

Why ? Because stego is herbivore therefore it should die to the carnivore ?

Also I'm pretty sure a deino that knows what it's doing can kill a stego solo

[dusky surge]

it literally beats 11/13 of the current roster with ease, only struggling with itself and stego

[simple depot]

Almost any animal can fight

[golden coral]

If a trike or anky, rex or giga, is "immune" to a deino, why can't stego and acro be as well if they're also up there in power?

[slim dragon]

Some are designed for it
Some are not

[simple depot]

Because stego isn’t a shan’t or trike an deino should hang with it

[slim dragon]

A boar is a brawler
A deer (same weight) isn't

[golden coral]

Based on what? Arbitrary choice?

[simple depot]

Based on the fact stegos are deino extinguishers right now

[dusky surge]

I wouldn't even refer to stego as a brawler, it really is just kind of a defensive powerhouse. Brawlers at least have agility and mobility, and tend to have longer, drawn out fights. Stego hits the thing hard with nuke damage till it stops moving

[golden coral]

Deino should not be hanging with a trike or a shant, at all. While stego probably should actually.

[slim dragon]

So that's spite balancing

[golden coral]

No, like, why should stego not be up there with trike and shant? But deino should?

[slim dragon]

Yeah
But apart from venomous animals there isn't really an equivalent in modern animals

[simple depot]

More so fix the problem balancing because if you don’t think what’s going on between stego ain’t a problem

[golden coral]

Deino should not be the equivalent to rex and giga, while stego should be the equivalent to trike and anky. Because deino has so many other advantages, and a mechanic that should not let it go up to that power level based on how it works.

[dusky surge]

besides perhaps an elephant or rhino, who tend to use "big weapon to kill thing fast"

[slim dragon]

What's going on between stego and deino ain't a problem

[simple depot]

deino should be the equivalent to spino

[slim dragon]

I would qualify these two as brawlers honestly

[dusky surge]

Stego and deino's matchup is such a non-issue

[slim dragon]

no

[simple depot]

as i said in the pot example even though it is a different game the dynamic with how deino is with other apexs aint bad

[golden coral]

@simple depotIf we went full power stego, it'd be 8.1T, have gular armor (neck and throat armor, so possibly less weak head multiplier due to said armor), it'd have proper swings, ability to attack while moving, and so on. Most likely it'd be able to swipe omnis off its sides directly due to tail reach, and it'd have proper AoE swings.

[dusky surge]

Deino already beats over 90% of the roster with ease

[golden coral]

No, stego is just bad in that game

[dusky surge]

Let it struggle with literally just one animal

[golden coral]

Sure, if stego is the equivalent to trike.

[simple depot]

deino could lose to rex , maybe giga, give issues to spino brawl stegos . lose to shants an trikes well idk

[golden coral]

If you want deino to be up there with spino and similar, then there's no reason not to put stego up there as well

[simple depot]

lets say lose

is that so bad?

[golden coral]

But why? You'e just basing balance on arbitrary choices there

Yes, because it makes little sense

[dusky surge]

good point, make stego on the same level as rex if deino is

if deino matches up with spino, stego should be on a similar level

[simple depot]

But why not. Why cant deino be a apex as well

[golden coral]

Why does it lose to rex, but not spino? Why does it brawl stego but not trike? There's no real reason behind those, which is why PoT balance is... well, what it is, and also why PoT goes for different things, being an mmo, allowing mixing, and other fun stuff (last I checked at least)

[simple depot]

why should it not be

[golden coral]

Why cant stego as well?

Why should stego not be?

[dusky surge]

If deino can be, stego should be

[slim dragon]

spino is stronger than other apexes you know

[simple depot]

i only said deino should lose to trike so you guys dont get upset but honsetly...

[golden coral]

Look, you can apply that to both of them. Make deino proper apex to rival spino, sure. Make stego proper apex to rival trike, also sure.

[slim dragon]

Because deino can instantly delete 90% of the roster with no possible counterplay

[dusky surge]

^

[golden coral]

Make deino struggle with hunting any apex, also sure. So trike ,and anky and stego are off limits. As are rex, giga and spino.

[slim dragon]

In the full 50+ playables roster, you can count the dinos that CANNOT be lunged and drowned by deino on your hands

[golden coral]

Defensively at least, but now I wonder how it would do vs a trike xD

[simple depot]

You dont have to make it 14 ton deino with whatever bite force it had we dont need it to drown stego or trike but lets say if a stego wants to fight a deino a stego shouldnt be a deino murder

[slim dragon]

Every apex should fear a deino...
When they're crossing a river trying to go on the other side, not on the shore

[simple depot]

stego shouldnt beat deino in my opinion

[slim dragon]

It absolutely should
What I mean is that current deino can drown 80% of the final roster with no counterplay

[dusky surge]

i mean, stego only beats deino if the deino is waltzing onto land or running up its ass, which deinos do a lot

if stego were to be swimming, that's an easy W for deino

[golden coral]

You're stuck on that match for no good reason. Just give a solid argument as to why stego specifically cant be strong enough but trike can?

[slim dragon]

It beats stupid deinos
If even the stupidest deinos can kill a stego, it means the animal is terrible

[simple depot]

see thats where we disagree i just cant agree with that match up

[slim dragon]

You'd ramp it up to 95% ?

[golden coral]

You could make stego 8T, deino 10T, rex and trike 9T, and so on. All powerful critters, but deino due to mechanics would still lose the fight to any of them, as it should

[simple depot]

simply because of fans an gamers same reason deino shouldnt fight rex

[golden coral]

What?...

[dusky surge]

what

[golden coral]

That makes absolutely no sense, I'm sorry

[simple depot]

that would make people go insane

if a deino could kill a rex

[dusky surge]

because carnivores shouldn't die, i know

only herbivores should die to the carnivores

[golden coral]

And it'd be just as insane if a deino can beat a stego xD

And people do want deino to match rex and spino in power, despite that not being a good idea

[simple depot]

trike is to much of a fan favorite dino for so many people an way to iconic for the croc to kill it

[dusky surge]

and stego isn't

[golden coral]

But you're looking at this from ... well, not a good balance angle at all

[dusky surge]

so basically, balancing is a popularity contest

[golden coral]

We're not balancing based on popularity of an animal or something

[slim dragon]

OK you don't do balance off fan favorites
You balance off what makes sense

[dusky surge]

stego is less popular therefor it should be weaker

[golden coral]

We're balancing it based on how it works in the game, how the playables work and all that

[slim dragon]

Otherwise you have rex that runs 50 km/h, has a 8000 bitefore and 60000 HP, just because "gamers won't like it to lose"

[golden coral]

Otherwise Omni would kill everything, rex would do the same, and most others would do nothing at all

[simple depot]

for sure but thats why i wouldnt have deino beat trike or rex but can brawl stego

[dusky surge]

nerf hypsi, it's too unpopular

[slim dragon]

Again, why the bias against stego ?

[golden coral]

Deino cant beat either of the three

[dusky surge]

stego hateboner continues

[golden coral]

Stego is just like trike

[simple depot]

deino can potentially kill all 3

[slim dragon]

but reverse

[golden coral]

Except the spikes are in the rear end and not the front xD

Yes, that ^^

[simple depot]

but balances need to be made

[dusky surge]

the balances are made

[golden coral]

Well, it's not entirely true due to tail reach and flank defense, but still :D

[dusky surge]

that's why stego kills deino, for balance

[golden coral]

Yes, and trike and stego are too powerful for deino to go after, it's not strange

You have a mechanic that lets you oneshot anything up to 4T

[slim dragon]

Deino can potentially kill all 3, if they're swimming (also except spino cuz it's designed for swimming)
If they're on land it can't
Boom, balanced game

[golden coral]

Anything above that, you are better off leaving it alone

[simple depot]

why have stego in particular beat deino i rather have it as a nobody wins situation i actually dont want deino killin stego

[golden coral]

Why not? Stego can be up there in power with trike after all

[simple depot]

but stegos put fear into deino players that i dont agree with

[slim dragon]

I still don't understand the deino mindset
"You can instantly kill anything under 4 tons"
Deino player :*goes for prey above 4 tons
"Why can't I kill it booo"

[golden coral]

And if it can, and trike can fight off a deino, why cant stego?

[dusky surge]

if any balances need to be made, its buffs to stego and nerfs to deino (although probably not too many nerfs to deino, it still needs to exist)

if rex and trike were added to the game right now, nothing would change for deino. It does what it always does, hides underwater and survives any terrestrial apex

[simple depot]

an why not deino can to?

[golden coral]

Because of how the lunge works

[slim dragon]

If that's your issue, then it will be the same thing with rex, trike, giga and spino

[simple depot]

yes it will

[slim dragon]

Not that they are of any actual threat to a deino...

[dusky surge]

i agree with deino having a weakness, personally, idk, it makes sense for animals to have weaknesses

even if stego is technically not at all that good at killing deinos that dont want to die

[slim dragon]

So once they're released you're gonna switch on saying deino needs to be able to brawl a trike ?

[dusky surge]

probably

[simple depot]

first half these deino players you see an also said with lunge it doesnt need to drown stego. I said fight stego

[dusky surge]

doesn't need to do that either

[slim dragon]

The point is lunge exists, not that it dorwns stego

Just like ptera doesn't need to be fighting omnis because it's already so good at doing what it's supposed to do

Deino is extremely competent at doing what it's supposed to do

[simple depot]

i mean i just said trike an rex are to iconic powerhouses like hulk an thor lol you would never think theyre other people on their level an wouldnt want any dinos to challenge them

[slim dragon]

It doesn't need to be made better at doing what it shouldn't do

Don't make it follow the carno route

[slim dragon]

But...
That's a stupid way of balancing things

[dusky surge]

i love the "popular carnivore should win, unpopular herbi should lose" mindset we're going off here

it's great

[slim dragon]

There is no other way to say it, it's just stupid

[simple depot]

i feel like it should be able to fight stego to get it away from its territory

[slim dragon]

Having one creature absolutely demolishing every other is fine in a movie, not in a game

[dusky surge]

stegos will leave regardless, its got no need to stick around if the deinos don't entertain it

[golden coral]

Yes, but because of how the lunge works, deino does not need to fight

[simple depot]

yea but the way things are the most popular powerhouse dinos are the strongest in the game

[dusky surge]

not really

dryo was once the most powerful

not even a joke that was a thing once

[golden coral]

That's... this is not a popularity contest, okay?

[simple depot]

shoot a utah pack will be able to take down a rex dondi said althought theyll lose alot

[slim dragon]

I feel your take is "I don't like stego so stego should die"

[golden coral]

Maybe its more so that power makes something popular, no matter how popular or iconic the thing is otherwise?

[dusky surge]

that's the general mindset

[golden coral]

If you made dryo as powerful as a rex, it would be popular, even if it's just a dryo

xD

[simple depot]

raptors are popular aint as strong as rex

[dusky surge]

????

[golden coral]

Yeah, he said 20 omnis, you lose 12+ of them before the rex dies

[dusky surge]

wait so what side are you on

[golden coral]

But you just said they will fight a rex... xD

[simple depot]

i mean honestly i think mindset it what ive been saying let deinos be able to fight stegos

[golden coral]

Which would imply they will be that powerful

[simple depot]

not have stegos be deino murders

[dusky surge]

which shouldn't be the case, stego should win

[golden coral]

And stego might be able to fight a rex too

[simple depot]

stegos stand unchallenged

[golden coral]

And if stego can fight off a rex, then it can fight off a deino

[dusky surge]

unless raptors, troodons or sometimes ceras decide to take it down, which they can do

[simple depot]

do u want it to fight off a rex?

[dusky surge]

kind of

[slim dragon]

Well in my opinion stego is more popular than deino so it should be buffed to kill it 100%
There's your counter-argument

[dusky surge]

because it won't be able to run from a rex

[dusky surge]

thats true, stego is far more well-known, it should easily overpower deino

[slim dragon]

And I have a proof
Show a stegosaurus to any kid, they'll know it's a stegosaurus
Show a deinosuchus to any kid, they'll say it's a croc

[dusky surge]

exactly

[simple depot]

that wasnt why i said that im giving the whole let trike an rex kill deino thing grace because i can jus say deino should fight them im saying that is literally the only reason they killing deino

[dusky surge]

i seriously don't know if you're for or against popularity balancing

[simple depot]

Im for the game balancing someone asked whats your reasoning until why trike should kill deino but not stego i said the only reason why i feel like trike an rex will be killing deino is because if it was the other way around that would be crazy seeing a croc kill your most beloved an famous t rex an then balancing reasons but i think majority of people would never want that off principle

[dusky surge]

you are aware the game has never been balanced like that though

[golden coral]

Yes, yes I think stego should be up there in power and ability with the apexes, no doubt.

[simple depot]

i mean if it wasnt why cant deino be a new apex it dont need to drown other apexs but can fight them

as a question

[dusky surge]

because then nothing can kill it

what kills a deino that fights off apexes and drowns everything else

[golden coral]

Yes, I asked for a good reason. You then provide a "popularity" reason, which isn't a good reason, I'm sorry to say.

I was more so hoping for an actual game related reason

[simple depot]

it dont need to be like that rex can still kill giga but giga is still a apex

[dusky surge]

giga can't go underwater to hide from rex entirely

anywhere giga can go, so can rex

[simple depot]

but spino is still there

[dusky surge]

and its slower than deino in the water by a significant margin

so deino just leaves

[simple depot]

we can go rock paper scissors on who wins what

but why cant deino be a apex

why cant deino be tossed in the match up

[dusky surge]

idk maybe read the dozens of reasons we've given man

like you keep asking the question as if it hasn't been answered

which proves you're either entirely ignoring any reasoning that doesn't comply with your own views, or you literally can't read

[golden coral]

And then the question is just as much "why cant stego be apex"

No matter how you look at it, if you can put deino as competitor to rex, you can put stego as it as well

So if the goal here is to make deino more powerful than stego, it doesn't hold, because they both have the potential to be apex level of power

And thus it would be no different for deino to go up vs a stego or a rex

[simple depot]

if you was to ask me for real i would literally say deino should fight almost all of them honsetly because deino being the only one exclude from that tier doest make sense we can make a match up list of who wins what . In game balance i have saying it wouldnt break the game if deino could fight stego but not be a stego murder so if deino came up on land stego could kill it

I think i said my main point in the beginning of the whole convo

we just threw rex trike an all this nonse but the main point was the way stegos an deinos are

[golden coral]

Are you basing this on any in game reason, like how the playable works, or why it would make sense? Or based on how their mechanics work and how it fits or do not fit? Because balance right now is fine between them, if anything deino overall is too good, while stego isn't as good as it ought to be vs the things it should be good vs.

You can have a match up list, if it makes some sense for the game and the balance in it

[slim dragon]

I'm not sure you quite understand what '"balancing means"

[golden coral]

But so far most of your reasons seems to boil down to "I like this critter to win this matchup" rather than based on it making sense

Such as "rex wins over giga, but loses to shant", but why?

[simple depot]

Stego literally rules than what else shoud it ought to be

wait read that wrongg

[golden coral]

Currently, it's fine that deino loses to stego, because it has it's lunge that kills everything, including up to 4T heavy stegos (so quite the size), and thus it does not need to also be able to fight, because it has water as a safety biome

[simple depot]

an thats where the main disagreement is

[golden coral]

There's not a situation where deino is in a bad spot in this game, unlike stego that does have issues with the roster at times (see omnis, troodons, ceras with the vomit lock (that is now fixed somewhat, thank the devs)

[slim dragon]

Terrestrial apex rules the land
Water apex rules the water
How else should it be ?

[simple depot]

we can talk around all the other stuff but the main disagreement is you guys think that stego should beat deino. I think stego and deino shouldnt be able to beat each other honestly

[golden coral]

Yes but you're disagreeing for... strange reasons

[slim dragon]

Also stego isn't nearly as much incontested as you make it to be

[golden coral]

And we're trying to understand what you base this matchup and its results on

Aside from "I just think it makes sense"

[slim dragon]

(already the case)
But it just requires skill on the deino's end, god forbid

[simple depot]

no aside from a one perecent deino the way its built in is stego muderes deino like deino is nothing

[slim dragon]

It's not my fault if 99% of deino players are that bad

[simple depot]

yall dont see a problem with that

[golden coral]

No, no we do not. Because far as we can see, there is no issue due to everything else involved in the situation

[slim dragon]

Yes
Deino is too easy to grow, so anyone who launches the game for the very first time can grow it to adult, be an absolute menace and then die to a non-issue like an idiot

[golden coral]

And we've tried to explain this, and how balancing tends to work, but I don't know, you just seem to take an issue with it being stego specifically

[simple depot]

I mean the whole stego vs deino is the issue stego an deinos in general are a issue

[golden coral]

Which means it's kind of difficult to get anywhere with things, because you're not providing reasons as to why stego should be weak in this matchup, or deino be stronger

[slim dragon]

The stego VS deino matchup is the only thing that's balanced about them

[golden coral]

Not really, because in all honesty, the matchup shouldn't happen

[simple depot]

I didnt becuase i provided reasons earlier of how fights between them should never be settled

[golden coral]

The proper response should be a deino sees an adult stego come to water, deino just remains underwater while stego drinks. Stego leaves, and deino is now free to keep waiting for proper prey to ambush

There you have it, no need for either to really do anything. And the deino has full control over this

It can almost literally sit under the nose of a stego, more or less, and not be visible. And unless it attacks, the stego is most likely to just have its drink and be on its way

So there doesn't even need to be a fight in the first place

[simple depot]

Literally in concept art it shows deinos stalking stegos granted their not fighting a stego. But repeating my point is if stego is getting a drink of an a deino is there if the deino decides to fight stego for being near the water it should be able to push stego away lets just say even if you didnt want stego losing to deino stego shouldnt still be no diffin deinos the way it does anyway. Regardless i think deino should be able to push back away from the area but not be able to kill a stego because one the stego would have more health an be able to survive an two because it can run away. Stegos bullying standing on islands gathering piles of 8 ton deinos is ridiculous i seen one stego kill 3 deinos thats crazy even if the players were trash. Now if deinos come up on land stego will still be strong enough to push deino a way maybe u can have it where u keep stegos stats but u give deino a defensive buff when something like a stego comes near water. Theyre are plenty of places for stegos anyone else to drink so we dont got to say that. Defensive buff was just thought but everything else was my view

[dusky surge]

in concept art it shows omniraptor climbing a tree

[simple depot]

ok but what do u think

[dusky surge]

in fact, good news, as a deino, you can do exactly that

you can stalk stegosaurus with ease

[simple depot]

are you going to ignore what my point is or ?

[dusky surge]

also keeping stego's stats doesn't work, it needs higher stats to succeed against rex

[golden coral]

No, I don't agree that deino should be able to push away an adult stego, because it doesnt need to. It's that simple really. There's no "bullying" on islands, aside from one single spot where deinos don't even need to be. You can just avoid stegos so easily, even at that spot you can run the gauntlet if you need. So there's no need for deino to be able to fight a stego off. And if stego isn't doing this, trike or rex would, so you'd have the same issue. Three deinos losing to one stego is a skill issue, that's all there is to it, sorry. If you're fine with deino being bullied by trike and rex, you can be fine with deino being bullied by stego as well. Otherwise you're just specifically minding stego for no good reason, and at that point, there's nothing more to debate. Unless you can argue that stego is less built for bullying deinos than trike or rex would be?

I'll make it really simple. If your issue is that deino can be bullied, you have to have a solution to spino, trike, rex, shant and so on. If your issue is that it's specifcially stego doing it, you either need to provide reasons in game and balance as to why stego shouldnt be able to compared to the others, or you need to realize that you're just having an issue with a playable in an unreasonable manner.

[simple depot]

Yes there is theres one island that stegos will stand on a kill any croc that comes their way or any croc that doesnt avoid them. Your saying it doesnt need to but if it was able to push stegos away doesnt stop rex from killing stego. If stego needs to hold its own against rex i can simply just say make deino in the same tier as all the other apexes. its lunge will still be effective against 4ts an below an wont be effective against anything above it could fight a spino which the battle could end up more in favor of a spino because of its health but can give spino competition. When it fights trike it will be able to push a trike away same as stego Giga would lose because croc is has good bleed resist but giga can just run away when it fights rex it can have brawl but the side could be more in favor of rex an shant could make it just run. Now if you do that it could push stegos away stego can be as powerful as it needs to be if you want it to defend itself against rex if you dont then fine. All the other match ups go as plan most of these match ups could go the other way an end up having a dead deino with most of them it all depends on the dino an the situation.

[slim dragon]

bruh deino shouldn't even be looking at a trike
Worse matchup than rex

[simple depot]

he asked me i gave it to them now u dont like it

[dusky surge]

considering trike will likely be goring rex on the regular, it's unlikely we'll see deino standing a chance

[simple depot]

you dont like it when croc goes against all your favorites

[dusky surge]

nah i hate playing stego

[slim dragon]

I don't like it when crocs goes against things it shouldn't

[dusky surge]

i honestly don't like playing apexes much at all

[simple depot]

thats why i said at the end of the day it comes down to who loves who but yall got on me for saying that

[dusky surge]

i just don't want deino to be more insufferable than it already is

[slim dragon]

No, it comes down to proper balancing

[thin mantle]

Balancing is a borderline science

[simple depot]

thats why i was being graceful an said fan balance

[dusky surge]

which is bad balance lol

[simple depot]

nobody wants their trike or rex losing to a croc

But he asked me an i gave it to yall

[thin mantle]

Ok and?

[slim dragon]

Even if its not mine I don't want it to lose to the thing that already makes all of the roster's existence insufferable

[dusky surge]

what does players want have to do with anything

[slim dragon]

Deino is completely uncontested in water

[simple depot]

I litterally answered the question

[slim dragon]

It NEEDS to be losing fights on land

[simple depot]

thats how u do it

[dusky surge]

players don't want to lose their stego to a deino either

i dont want to lose my omni to a croc, we should nerf it to compensate, since omni is a fan-favourite

[simple depot]

but yall just dont want deino being that strong

[slim dragon]

no

[thin mantle]

Why does a player preferring a certain matchup outcome circumvent the balancing that dictates why that matchup goes as it does

[simple depot]

it comes down to that

[thin mantle]

Those two things can occur concurrently

[slim dragon]

Only people who play exclusively deino could want it to be stronger than it is now

[dusky surge]

we dont want deino to be that strong because it would severely harm the balance of the game

[simple depot]

i just said how u balance

[dusky surge]

no you didn't

[simple depot]

yall just dont like it

[thin mantle]

You didn’t

[simple depot]

i told u how deino goes against all the apexs an everything under 4ts

[thin mantle]

Preferential treatment balancing is how we got release Cerato

[simple depot]

What else do u want?

fan balancing is why deino loses to trike an rex easily

[thin mantle]

Not even in the slightest

[dusky surge]

I have experience as a Game Designer Lead and am on my final year of a Game Design degree, I am basing this off my knowledge and experience, not my biases.

[slim dragon]

No that's normal balancing

[thin mantle]

It’s because it encroaches on the viability of rex and trike

[simple depot]

its one way of balancing

[thin mantle]

Because deino has a matchup that can’t be avoided

[simple depot]

i just told you another way where deino can be a new apex

[slim dragon]

There are multiple ways of doing balancing
Half of them are bad

[thin mantle]

You can easily avoid rex and trike

[simple depot]

an still not screw everything up

or does it screw it cuz yall dont like croc

[dusky surge]

I literally am of the opinion that rex should get melted by trike with ease. I don't care if it's THE fan favourite, trike should shred a rex that hasn't got a plan

[simple depot]

Why have it below everything when it could be on everyone level

[thin mantle]

Can we just all collectively agree that we’re not arguing strictly from bias or are we gonna keep getting hung up on that

[slim dragon]

But deino being on par with the other apexes would ruin balance, because it has perks, abilities and a prey range that no other creature has access to
If deino is apex strength, it becomes the ultimate playable

[dusky surge]

I am one of the few people here who actually enjoys what deino provides to the game, I don't dislike it by any means

[simple depot]

like what if anythings its forced to stay in water

why other apexs can roam about

[thin mantle]

Which is a titanic advantage

[simple depot]

an you still have spino

[dusky surge]

other apexes are forced to stay above land, while deino gets full roam of the depths below

[slim dragon]

It's not forced to stay in the water if it can fight off anything on land

[thin mantle]

And yet deino still oneshots 70% of the roster from stealth

[simple depot]

i literally answered the question yall saw it an still want deino below everyone because yall dont like the idea of croc being that strong

stego dont need to beat croc

[keen plover]

??? In the same way the other apexes are forced to stay on land. Deino would delete them in water

[golden coral]

I sincerely don't think a deino would win vs a giga either, or any of the apexes. It's not designed to fight, to brawl, with anything it's own size, it's that simple. Yes, you could power it up, but there's no need and no reason for that, game wise. Whereas there is with stego, since it, unlike deino, does have to contend with the other apexes and large creatures, while deino swims away and is untouchable. You're ... I don't know, talking about a bunch of theoreticals without any given reason for them. While I am trying to look at game balance here, and how the playables work, or need to/should work in the game, no matter what the playable is.

[simple depot]

Yall want it to

[thin mantle]

Literally has to

If stego doesn’t beat deino in a 1v1 it literally wouldn’t be viable

[keen plover]

Well it would be tbf.

[golden coral]

I think it's more so that we don't see a good reason in the game for deino to go up against larger things, it's that simple. Cool it may be, irl sense it might make, but there's no need game wise, for the balance, for deino to play that way, and so we don't agree.

[thin mantle]

Depends on how badly deino wins

[simple depot]

almost every animal can fight an crocs can so it would be one animal that could an has the capability to do so

[keen plover]

Well as long as it doesn't get drowned, it's viable

[thin mantle]

Unless deino can dps stego or otherwise keep it from running away

[simple depot]

i jus gave you game balance bruh

[slim dragon]

Deino can fight
But other animals are better suited for it

[simple depot]

i also said every apex can still kill it

[thin mantle]

But why does deino need to

[simple depot]

it jus comes down to yall dont like deino

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. It's because if you look at how the playables work, it makes sense it loses.

[simple depot]

because it does no justice to deino not to

[thin mantle]

Convergently it could also come down to you liking deino

Because there’s no in game pressure requiring it to be good at that

[keen plover]

Why does Deino need to beat the other apexes?

Does it have a place all to itself? Yes. Well except for Spino, but Spino won't swim fast enough to catch one

Does it need it for food reasons? No. Deino can eat just about anything and it has a long hunger timer.

[simple depot]

deino was jus as big an powerful as all the other apexs but yall dont want it to be

And i gave balance

yall jus didnt like it

[thin mantle]

Why does it have to

[keen plover]

If we're basing it on that, then Carno would delete everything without contest in the current meta

[thin mantle]

It being big isn’t a good justification

[golden coral]

Because of how else it works, it does not need it. It's not about not wanting it to be that strong because we dislike the deino, it's because there's no balance need for it, at all.

[keen plover]

Teno wouldn't be able to touch Carno

[simple depot]

its no justice to that dino

[thin mantle]

Same can be said for any animal

[simple depot]

what about we made rex way weaker than it should be

[thin mantle]

Justice doesn’t define balance

[golden coral]

Deino can fight, it's just terrible at it and can't fight things it's own size, because it was given a lunge that does it's job for it for the targets it should go after.

[simple depot]

what about we made rex weaker than giga an spino an get beat by stegos

[keen plover]

Literally everything in the game is already. Cerato realistically couldn't fight off a Carno at all

It's balanced around a game

[thin mantle]

If it works then it works, if it doesn’t it doesn’t

Pachy would get deleted by literally everything, it wouldn’t even be capable of fracturing most of what it does

[simple depot]

Deino should be able to fight things it own size IT MAKES SENSE IT DOESNT i see that one way but i see an listed another way

[dusky surge]

if it makes the game balanced, sure, but those scenarios are unlikely

[golden coral]

Because it's not designed like that in the game. You seem to not quite want to acknowledge how the playable works and is designed. Stego isn't designed as apex either, much as I wish it was.

[simple depot]

its not just one end all be all

[keen plover]

Carno at max size is 2.1t, yet we don't have that in game. Teno is 800 - 900kg irl, yet we have 1.6t in game. It's balanced around making creatures viable and fun

[slim dragon]

Every animal is changed massively compared to its irl counterpart
And rex is probably nerfed from its irl self because otherwise it would make most of the roster redundant

[golden coral]

If it made sense for how rex was designed, it would work. You're ignoring the design of the animal for, I don't know, irl or something?

[thin mantle]

Cerato shouldn’t even be able to defend itself against Carno, cuz that makes sense

[slim dragon]

The roster is made of animals who couldn't possibly live together
So they're adjusted to provide an entertaining game experience

[simple depot]

i literally saw a stream where a deino picked up a rex

[golden coral]

Now, rex isnt designed like that, so it won't happen, but that's beside the point

[simple depot]

what do you mean it could if they wanted it to be

[golden coral]

What?

[keen plover]

Test stream

[dusky surge]

a several year old stream based on old, outdated ideas? wow

[simple depot]

not saying i want that happening

btw

Im saying deino could fight things its size if they wanted it to

[golden coral]

No, it should not. Not when it also have the lunge. This is what you don't seem to get. Due to how deino is designed, and its lunge mechanic, it should not be able to fight things its own size. At least not with any form of effectiveness. Thats what balances it.