balance-feedback-discussion

[cobalt dagger]

I know very little about the discussion of humans or no humans

[dusky surge]

i'd honestly be fine if seeing your exact HP went away lol

as long as they know if they're in the red, like legacy

less stupid fights

[cobalt dagger]

I've only ever heard of it from a pvp perspective, concerning humans

Concerning stupid fights, I doubt anything will put an end to that, humans like to get kills and humans are controlling the dinos.

[stark knoll]

Honestly I liked legacy's health ui

Descriptions and a heartbeat monitor

[dusky surge]

yea same

[stark knoll]

Especially if the blood overlays are improved or made to actually be gradual

[dusky surge]

we still have the heartbeat monitor but it's useless now

[cobalt dagger]

But I don't think it's bad to have no exact hp/won't make too much impact

[dusky surge]

you'd be surprised how many people metagame the hell out of the exact numbers

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah the blood overlays confuse me currently ^^' They always worry me more than I need to worry.

What would be the goal of humans if they were to be added?

I thought it would be to fight the dinos

[dusky surge]

not to fight the dinos, because that would be lame

[cobalt dagger]

But, if I were a human, I'd love to study them (take blood samples, study droppings or something, ect)

Yeah I agree fighting the dinos is like...

That's all over the place in games.

[dusky surge]

i mean, being encouraged to do nothing but gun down playables in a dinosaur survival game probably won't fly well

generation 1 will likely be more hostile to dinos, but they don't have guns and actually eat dinos

[cobalt dagger]

Oh, interesting... Wouldn't tribal humans be too easy to kill? I guess spears are pretty poke-y though

Maybe if they used poisons

I read that native people on Kodiak Island used monk's hood, a plant related to Wolf's bane, to poison their spears so they could use the poison to kill whales.

If it can kill whales I bet it could kill a big dino too.

[dusky surge]

9 foot tall, adept climber, exceptionally strong orc men aren't that easy to kill

[cobalt dagger]

OH they're 9 feet tall okay that's different

[dusky surge]

they're not really human per-se

they're a unique thing

[cobalt dagger]

Gorilla humans?

[dusky surge]

that is very physically capable, but looks like a nightmare creature

[cobalt dagger]

Do they spawn in as a 'baby' too or nah?

[cobalt dagger]

Oh my

It looks like it's mixing with a dino or something

[dusky surge]

ehh, probably not mixing

just making a human wrong

[cobalt dagger]

Well, it has some different aspects going on for it that look a bit reptilian

[latent lotus]

@tribal spear omni is not weak compared to other predators and if u got knocked out that’s completely your fault

@keen plover u were already damaged before so i guess not really necessary?

[keen plover]

I was yeah. Fought a cerato, but regardless. I hit the tail slam and imo it should always beat out the charge

Carno should actually be using some thought rather than running up a tenos tail and get slammed

[latent lotus]

not on that case no, u would have stunned him of u had survived

[latent lotus]

he would get punished for been stupid

if u wasn’t at 5hp

nice profile picture btw

[dusky surge]

i dont think him being low HP should mean carno is guaranteed a kill

[keen plover]

I’ve had the experience as Carno. I’ll try to upload the clip, but pretty much Carno can consistently win the trade. At worst it gets stunned while you get knocked down

[latent lotus]

why is that

[keen plover]

Also thanks

Teno currently has it rough when it comes to cancelling charge with tail slam

Experiencing it from both sides

[dusky surge]

because having zero survival options sucks? lol

[latent lotus]

ok if that’s actually the case then yeah it’s pretty bad, i have never seen a situation like that

[keen plover]

Yeah I’ll do it later to show some context

[latent lotus]

can we blame the teno for bad timing tho?

[dusky surge]

teno has it pretty rough in general

[latent lotus]

yeah cerato really destroys teno

and it’s not like ceratos are hard to find

[dusky surge]

didn't use to but it kept getting changes to help it in the matchup

and teno got that ridiculous tailslam nerf

[latent lotus]

so teno and pachy got an L last update huh

bad time for herbies

[keen plover]

Possibly. I’ll try to get it from both experiences but it feels like it’s not worth tail slamming a charging Carno

I even hit the tail slam perfectly and died

[thin mantle]

It is funny how teno and Carno are really the only ones who consistently rely on stamina economy to fight

[latent lotus]

so dodging would be the best opition rn?

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

pachy got an L because it deserved a nerf. Issue was it got majorly overnerfed and thrown into a world where cerato exists

[thin mantle]

Like Omni technically does but it’s stamina expenses can’t be pressured by anything but Carno, so I basically just don’t count it

[dusky surge]

i'd also say pachy because without stamina, it has to... trot

[thin mantle]

Well true, but that’s moreso a product of it being slow

[latent lotus]

carno relies on hoping that the cera doesn’t know it can outstam you

[thin mantle]

Because Omni had to expend more stamina to use its abilities but gets pressured less because of its speed

[fresh laurel]

Wouldnt that still count as omni relying on stam for combat
Also think playables other than carno can keep a low stam omni on its toes, maybe not as well ig

Like without stam, omni is a 450 hp playable with a decent bite

[dusky surge]

compared to teno and carno, barely

[fresh laurel]

How so
I think im just not seeing the full picture

[dusky surge]

an omni without stam has

• a good bite
• decent turn
• good trot/walk stam regen
• decent trot speed

a teno without stam has

• a lack of its primary damage/defensive moves
• the inability to swim (its primary last resort)
• not nearly as good stam regen

at least it has a speedy trot, but that's it really

omni isn't super reliant on its pounce either

it's not necessary for omni to hunt like tailslam or kick is for teno to live

[fresh laurel]

As for carno?

[dusky surge]

carno also has a garbage trot, garbage trot stam regen, the lack of the only move that actually makes the animal remotely playable (charge), lacks its primary defensive mechanism (running)

its bad turn radius also makes it equally pathetic in self-defence

but then again, carno is just... bad atm, in terms of design

[fresh laurel]

Isnt the trot decently fast, with a good bite and good hp
Compared to omni, no stam wise, a carn def seems more viable, even just due to the hp difference

Unless im missing something

[dusky surge]

no, carno's trot is REALLY bad

it trots as fast as a cera, which is just... sad

[fresh laurel]

Omni trots faster?

[dusky surge]

its bite isn't even good

[fresh laurel]

But wait, who trots faster?

[dusky surge]

it's honestly pathetic for its size and niche, honestly, considering everything

carno's entire combat plan centres charge. If you can't charge, you're basically screwed

[fresh laurel]

But uh, who trots faster

[dusky surge]

pretty sure it's omni, although i dont have the numbers on me

[fresh laurel]

Wha-

[dusky surge]

i still believe the fact that carno trots as fast as cera is just sad

[fresh laurel]

I didnt see carno in action much since like u6 or u5, so uh what was he shafted in, sheesh

[fresh laurel]

Anyways, are we basing stam needs for niche or what?
I really cant see omni out outperforming carno when no stam
Carno from what i know is tankier, better bite, should trot faster (gotta check ig), just lacks mobility of turning ig
Also gotta point out that even bucking makes stam much more important to omni

[dusky surge]

okay, so let's look at all carno's pros and cons

Pros:

• Sprints fast
• High charge damage
• Charge does knockdown
• Regens stam quickly while resting
• Dehydrates slowly

Cons:

• Turns horribly
• Terrible running stam (a stegosaurus can sprint for longer than a carnotaurus)
• Charge melts stam in mere seconds if used
• Starves very fast
• Terrible NV (one of the worst in the game)
• Bleeds faster than any other creature
• Stam regen is terrible if not resting
• Worst swimming stam in the game
• Second worst swimming speed in the game
• Trot speed not that fast
• Extremely limited diet
• Bite force has worse DPS than a creature 500kg less than it
• Extremely slow acceleration

[fresh laurel]

Damn

Stam wise, yah carno ig is doing worse
But back on no stam subject, omni def faulters more
Just how i see it

[dusky surge]

An omni is better because not only is it more capable of evading things even without stam, it actually can get that stam BACK. Carno very much struggles, given it bleeds VERY fast, and has a poor stam regen while trotting

[keen plover]

Carno trots faster *

That's all

[dusky surge]

I would rather be an omni without stam because an omni without stam will soon be an omni with stam

A carno without stam will likely stay a carno without stam

Due to its fast stam melting and poor regen

(also because carno is built entirely around having stam and completely faulters the moment it doesn't)

[fresh laurel]

So wait, is the debate on
What playables needs stam to succeed more
Or what is least viable without it

[dusky surge]

what needs stam to succeed

which is carno

I also forgot that carno now has exceptionally slow acceleration

That's an important part of the cons list

[fresh laurel]

Then ig maybe
But i find it hard to say omni barely counts in this situation
Since its whole hunting is built on it (shush ambush carno)

Is carno still meant to ambush with charge?

Like what exactly is charge expected to be used now

[dusky surge]

i have absolutely no clue anymore

[fresh laurel]

Dang

[dusky surge]

its just such a goddamn jumble of random ideas

[fresh laurel]

Give carno a defined and proper niche oml 🦈

Plains hunter really is that hard to get working?

[dusky surge]

As long as it lives on spiro, it probably will remain in hell

[fresh laurel]

Wouldnt a plain hunter need more stamina compared to one that was in like a forest

[dusky surge]

you'd think

or at least a good trotrate

i still think it trotting as fast as cera is ridiculous

it's like 50% leg

[fresh laurel]

Everything about bro screams speed 🦈

Carno needs to be more uh, something that encourages things to avoid the plains if its failing at that

[dusky surge]

being good at actually pursuing prey would be a start

because it's safer to stand in open plains than near bushes or forests against a carno

[alpine plover]

ı believe ceras stamina should be decreased, and the running speed should be increased a bit, it has lots of stamina, even tho its an scavanger, its not designed for hunt in the build, it designed to steal and run,

ceras should be like modern day Hyenas,

which is also an scavanger,

(ı mean mostly they hunt too)

also, scavangers in nature usually have very strong bites, due to their ability to break bones, and skulls, these are mostly leftovers from an animal, ı believe ceras biting force should be a bit higher.

[dusky surge]

i dont think the speed should be increased

i think another high speed, low stam predator is the last thing we need

having higher speed just makes it hunt more lol

[alpine plover]

ı mean, scavangers are thiefs, ever saw an slow thief? that is succesfull?

[dusky surge]

cerato is meant to bully generally

which means it tends to stand its ground

everything about it encourages it to stand and fight, not grab and run

[alpine plover]

ı mean, ceras are not the best for fighting in the evrima ngl,

[dusky surge]

compared to much of the roster, they are

bleed resist, fracture resist, the ability to make the opponent puke, charge bite, tons of stam, good turn radius, good DPS

not even mentioning the damage resist from being near corpses

[alpine plover]

yep, that tho, they are very odd dinos

[dusky surge]

making them faster doesn't achieve much besides making them hunt more

they already harass tenontos enough

[alpine plover]

lower the stamina*

they run for like 10 days straight bruv

like bruh these guys got infinite stam.

[dusky surge]

i think the stam is really high too, but I'd rather they be made slower than faster

[alpine plover]

ı think they can chase everything down in the game by making them run out of stam.

but if there is something that needs to be balanced, its deino fr.

[quasi swift]

I think they should just be a bit faster cause once they add Rex’s they gonna have to be faster to escape when stealing food

[rigid tulip]

omni and troodon, carno can facetank anything 1v1 after its out of stam besides obv stego and dieno

but ik what u mean, stam in order to kill easily and to run from cera groups

[keen plover]

If raptor was to get a bleed buff to fight larger creatures, it would then just be able to delete similar sized creatures with no effort @zenith comet

Also where did Omni needing a buff come from

Seen a few posts

[zenith comet]

Yeah that makes sense tbh you have a good point there

[dusky surge]

omni is an insanely good bleeder

idk where this sentiment comes from that it needs more

[opaque aurora]

solo omni players when its not braindead easy to solo a creature larger than it

pack animal for a reason fr

[dusky surge]

even solo omnis do okay

[keen plover]

Solo Omni is capable of soloing pretty much any creature except Deino right now

Average skill from most of the players means that a solo Omni that's good can drop most creatures

[dusky surge]

even cera, who is DESIGNED to not die to it basically

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

i honestly think the "Isle skill issue" and pounce issues is really what holds this animal back from people realising just how broken it is

fix the pounce, and omni is only as weak as its player

[keen plover]

Exactly that. It has no limits (well except Deino)

[dusky surge]

but same can be said for most if not all animals vs deino

[keen plover]

Only because it uses water and pounce can jank easy on deino

[dusky surge]

the fact that omni's limit is the very animal that is the limit of all others is pretty telling

i genuinely fear for trike and rex, and that's not a joke

omni's sheer unmatched potential makes it a threat even to these proclaimed powerhouses

the only animals safe from omni are those that never have to concern themselves with it

especially trike

large flanks, a single forward-facing defence, low speed and likely not the most agile

[keen plover]

Honestly? I just assume the apexes will get some hard counter

Not what I want but

[dusky surge]

Well, there's something to be said about them getting a specific "apex system"

Whatever it is, I doubt it's to ensure apexes have a comfy time surviving

And seeing Dondi's seething, seething hatred for the ease-of-growth on Deino, he'd likely be even tougher on Rex. He loves that thing so much, he wants it to be special, and having it be a regular sight would likely not vibe with him

[keen plover]

Maybe while growing, but I assume as a full adult, they wouldn't want Rex to die to a common pack of raptors

[dusky surge]

That's true, but perhaps there are other plans to ensure apexes get struck down with the full force of survival

[keen plover]

I do hope they're not untouchable. Maybe after a hunt

[cosmic pelican]

@zenith comet Omni can already kill everything solo that is not a deino, the last thing it needs is a buff to its bleed. Its already overpowered enough considering the miss pounce animation has been removed.

[meager oriole]

@zenith comet Requiring patience on a playable such as Omniraptor is great, especially since right now its ability to tap pounce is absurd. Even worse that it can spam pounce now.

I don't believe Omniraptor is inherently overpowered, I just think tap pounce needs to be removed so that:

1. Omniraptors have to work on wearing down what they are attacking.
2. Bucking becomes relevant again.
3. Omniraptors become a significantly higher skill playable without just tapping rmb for 2 seconds every now and again.

As it stands now, Omniraptor is very overtuned and the one thing humbling Omnis currently is de-sync.

Omni can also already solo a Carno, although that fight is very tricky to say if it's reliable enough for the Omni without a second.

[tall bronze]

Super late response, but Kissen had stated it's just doing checks for the game being ready for apexes' arrival. I don't believe it's necessarily a specific mechanic by itself.

[odd pebble]

Why do you disagree with my suggestion @dusky surge?

[dusky surge]

Because I don't think alt-bite should be returned to pre-6.5

besides making it cost stam again

[thin mantle]

I mean....idk about that

The alt attack changes have made combat encounters with a select few animals VERY clunky and awkward

Like teno and pachy feel downright awful to play as is

[dusky surge]

i feel like that's more based around the fact that these animals really don't have much else going for them outside their alt-bites. At least with teno, its trot is good enough that you're fine using that (and you generally should to preserve stam)

[thin mantle]

I just criticise it on the grounds of clunky controls

[odd pebble]

Nah the unexpected use of alt bites when running for brake checks and such made the combat between the hunter and the hunted waaay more interesting

[dusky surge]

i mean, not really, unless it was specifically pachy and omni, otherwise it was a tool to just disable you from chasing other carnivores without them getting free hits in

[odd pebble]

Now its just " oh youre decelerating. So that means youre going to alt bite now"

Exactly

It made mirror matchups lot more interesting too

[dusky surge]

herbivores didn't benefit at all from it, it was exclusively benefitial to big boy carnis like carno basically

in fact really, running alt-bite only truly mattered for carno and pachy

both animals are already just horridly designed to begin with

[odd pebble]

I disagree. It was very useful on teno for chip damage and bleed against carnos and getting suprise hits on omnis. And i dont think i need to mention pachy

[dusky surge]

why would you ever claw when you could slam or kick. You don't want chip, you want the carno dead

kick does everything claw does but more, and better

claw is good against smalls, but against animals like troodon and omni, you want to stand your ground regardless

[odd pebble]

That would work against the avergae brain dead carno that runs into your slams. The ones that bait and try to drag out the fights need the claws

And sometimes the chip dmg matters

[dusky surge]

against carno with its charge, you basically need tailslam because carno is still one of the dumbest designed animals

also a sprinting 180 claw attack is much slower than a kick or tailslam

idk why you'd ever choose that over the much better options in that situation

[odd pebble]

Standing still to use your attacks makes it a lot more predictable for predators. It was much better when it was unpredictable

[dusky surge]

not to mention a sprinting 180 claw attack means you are now forced to face the target, making it harder to make more distance

i really can't see a single situation where a teno benefits from doing this against a carno

[odd pebble]

I never said 180 claw attacks

[odd pebble]

I mained teno from update 4 to update 6. Trust me, sometimes the chip dmg matters

Like fluff said, the changes makes combat a lot more clunky and restrictive. I dont like that

[dusky surge]

i don't think it ever made combat particularly engaging, it just made it that people got punished for ever pursuing anything with an alt-bite that mattered, since it was essentially a 360 degree, extremely simple and easy option to immediately punish players who had gotten to your flanks, even as animals like carnotaurus

[thin mantle]

On almost every creature it absolutely did

There were less assured safety nets when taking certain angles

[odd pebble]

I mean, isnt that a good thing?. We dont want legacy assriding 2.0 do we?

[thin mantle]

Now there are more, and the tells for attacks goes further before the animation uptime

Which makes alt attacks insanely predictable

[dusky surge]

i mean, we still have counters to ass-riding, alt-bite hasn't been deleted

also tailriding does pathetic damage

[odd pebble]

Chip dmg and bleed

[thin mantle]

Alt attacks being more reactive made punishing overambitious bates in movement way more viable

Which is a strategy I'd hate to see nerfed considering the entire premise of evrima's combat revolves around attack baiting

Like alt attacks went from something that punishes poor assessment, from something that can only punish blind W key pressing

Unless you are literally immobile, which in evrima only works if you're enourmous

[dusky surge]

also im pretty sure the only time you can't alt-attack is while sprinting, trotting and walking are fair game

[odd pebble]

It is extremely frustrating when you have a great opportunity for a good claw attack on an omni but the game decided " oh you pushed down the shift key for 0.0001 seconds, guess you have to use your pathetic bite now"

[odd pebble]

Carnis arent nearly as affected by it as herbis are.. Thats the issue

[dusky surge]

i don't see how herbis are effected, besides it being the long-awaited stego nerf I guess

oh, and pachy, but it's not being played with or without that alt-bite, it's already considered trash regardless

[odd pebble]

I dont see how it affects stego since it already had to completely stop for its attacks, but for tenos and pachys it hit hard

[dusky surge]

nah, stego can't cancel sprint into jab anymore

[odd pebble]

Like tenos cannot deal with 2 omnis that have the slightest idea of how to use their ability without abusing water or cliffs.

[odd pebble]

Ah i see

[dusky surge]

i mean, personally, i feel that's less due to the running alt-attack and more due to the fact that omni is just woefully overtuned atm

with or without a running alt, you wouldn't be able to hit those omnis

It literally goes entirely unpunished for whiffing pounces, on top of having great speed, stam and agility

[odd pebble]

Oh omni being overtuned is an entirely different issue. What i mean is, you are not able to punish the small moment of unawareness from the aggressors anymore

Like, being able to hit them with claws if they get too close while running

[dusky surge]

(i mean, they literally went out of their way to remove the small moments of unawareness by reducing stun duration and removing missed pounce animations)

teno just got absurdly overnerfed this update with the nerfs to staggers, knockdowns and tail damage, as well as buffs to animals like omni that removes windows of opportunity

[odd pebble]

The removal of pounce recovery is an absolutely L move

[dusky surge]

i don't understand why teno needed nerfs to the damage of its tailslam after the knockdown became less effectice

that's nerfs in two elements

[odd pebble]

Yeah solo teno is rough....

[dusky surge]

my suspicion is primarily cerato players complaining about getting smacked down by teno

but frankly, they should learn to respect teno more than they do

a solo teno should basically obliterate a solo cerato without any body buff involved

i personally feel herbis got unfairly beaten down this patch. I agree with removing pachy stunning carnos and tenos because dear god that was infuriating, but it needs other things to compensate

teno just gets nerfed for existing, I guess, despite it consistently being very well balanced

carno also got screwed but that's a different story

carno itself hasn't been an actually decently designed playable for most of EVRIMA's existence tbh, so it's less being nerfed and more having no clue how the hell to manage this thing

[odd pebble]

They did my boi teno dirty.... Pachy should have stun on fractures. Havent played pachy myself, but from what ive seen, its a gamble going in for a ram, cuz you can potentially lose half your hp from a single trade, add pachy's terrible bleed res on top of that.... I dont see it being viable unless it gets some of its stuns back

[dusky surge]

pachy has actually one of the better bleed res in the game

because it's one of the few animals that actually HAS bleed res

cerato, pachy and deino are the only three animals in the game that actually have bleed resist lol

[odd pebble]

Funny enough, the most fun ive had on carno is this update because of the struggle it is to survive

[dusky surge]

i can't have fun with carno because it just feels like a goddamn failure lol

[odd pebble]

Oh rlly? So it doesnt bleed out as quick anymore? (Havent played pachy since update 5)

[odd pebble]

Yeah its not for everyone

[dusky surge]

small game hunter that specialises in hunting only cerato and sucks at ACTUALLY hunting small game
ambusher that exists in OPEN PLAINS
has a charge that works better at obliterating big things than actually helping you with smalls

it has no pursuit capabilities or scouting potential because of its pathetic stamina and trotrate, so its entire gameplan is to use the terribly designed Spiro plains and its hundred bushes to hope to god you ambush something, or just kill solo ceratos because that's your best matchup

despite having the second lowest pack size in the game, it also is one of the animals that benefits most from groups

not even mentioning the fact this thing starves faster than basically the entire roster, despite being apparently an "ambush/small-game hunter"

[odd pebble]

I kinda like ambusher carno. But as you have said before, plains are completely different on gateway so it wont have much luck ambushing stuff on the plains there. Interested to see how they're gonna balance it out (If they balance it out 💀)

[dusky surge]

i despise ambusher carno

allo exists

and unlike carno, allo has the options to not do all of its hunting in the most open environment in the game

allo is an ambusher that actually works as an ambusher because it can adapt to biomes that permit more ambushing

[slim dragon]

As I said before, carno needs to be kept as an ambusher so we can have 3 nearly identical mid-sized ambush hunters

[dusky surge]

we need the entire mid-tier carnivore roster to be exclusively ambush hunters hell yea

[slim dragon]

Instead of having things being actually unique

[odd pebble]

Yes! (Sarcasm)

[dusky surge]

and in the case of allo and carno, two mid-tier, high speed ambush hunters that do well in plains

except one's bigger, stronger and better

so why would you play the smaller, terrible one

[odd pebble]

Imo carno either needs it pre-update 6 agility or a new ability instead of charge that helps it take down smalls, cuz i dont think the current charge is ever gonna be balanced

[dusky surge]

as far as I'm concerned, we have three hyper-specialised animals that really only work in the environment they were made for

Carno: Plains specialist
Deino: Water specialist
Herrera: Forest specialist

All these animals have their primary gameplay built around their biome, so their entire kit should be designed to reflect what traits best benefit animals in these environments. In the case of herrera and deino, they actually do benefit a great deal from their environment, but carno almost hates its own home. Without enough cover, it gets caught by more endurant predators and ran down, or spotted by prey and immediately loses the hunt

[keen plover]

PLEASE

For the love of FUN. Let it turn

[dusky surge]

i honestly, personally, don't really see the need for it to be much better at turning

[keen plover]

I just found it more fun. Update 6 ruined Carno for me

Giving chase and turning with the prey if you could time it well was enjoyable

[odd pebble]

YES!!! Someone gets it

[dusky surge]

I'd personally keep the turn radius limited and, most importantly, the acceleration as it is

I think the current accel is great for actually keeping carno in plains, because sudden stops to momentum like trees means it can't prosper in denser areas

The turn radius being slightly better would be nice, as well as stamina and trot speed

[steep nexus]

If I can put in my two cents i feel like the previous ram was just much better, carno doesnt need to have an amaizing turn radius to Prosper in plains, there's so much more to it than just a ram.. And also the speedboost was just so good at run away's

[dusky surge]

Previous ram still has several issues
A: Completely lacks any and all manner of skill expression
B: Does an ABSURD amount of damage, an issue most if not all iterations of the charge has had, and is the one part of the animal that ACTUALLY needs nerfs
C: Ruins the carno's running stam, making it hyper-commital and reducing your ability to pursue, furthering the "ambusher carno" playstyle I hate so much

[steep nexus]

yeah well, this ram is not much better-- it defenitely doesnt require any skill one bit if you can just press right click and turn like crazy making the thing you hunt almost unable to escape it, and also im sorry but genuienly i do not care you hate the "ambusher carno" playstyle, that is-- genuienly how its supposed to be played-- you ambush the prey, catch it off guard-- also the previous one required some strategy thinking therefore making it require atleast some type of skill--

[dusky surge]

i hate ambusher carno because it should not be played like that, it's an absurdly unfitting playstyle

(also the devs both seem to want it to be an ambusher and not want it to be an ambusher and it's really unclear which is which)

ambusher carno is entirely unsustainable on any map that has actual plains (like Gateway). In fact, carno is so abysmal on Gateway BECAUSE it has flat, open, realistic plains, and carno absolutely sucks on those

It requires hilly, bushy plains to exist

the new ram is also really easy to escape, idk where you get this from

like, if you can see it coming, it's worthless lol, unless you're specifically cera

[steep nexus]

not really..? it is meant to be an ambusher, your very close minded if you think that the only way to play a carno is on flat open plains-- also no if you play smart you can still ambush without needing hills or bushes thank you very much, also the ram can out turn an omni

[dusky surge]

the devs made carnotaurus to be a plains predator. Gateway's plains are extremely flat and open. The forests are far too difficult for carno to navigate for it to effectively hunt in. It is screwed if it retains an ambushing lifestyle

it also isn't really meant to be an ambusher based on recent changes it got

[steep nexus]

yeah and the recent changes are not good one bit

[dusky surge]

specifically to its acceleration, which is key to a good ambush.

they're in the right direction, but carno should've gotten a trot speed buff or stamina buff as well

also possibly a turnrate buff

since it sucks ass at hunting small game still

[steep nexus]

no-- not they're not, the turn radius is far too absurd, if you think about it in a realistic sense a ramming carno should not be able to turn like that unless it wants to absolutely topple over-- its far too op

[steep nexus]

im-- sorry you have severe skill issues if you want a turnrate buff

[dusky surge]

i want a charge damage nerf mainly though

the charge's damage is literally just... horrible for the animal's proposed niche as a small-game hunter

[dusky surge]

i'm not really sold on the turnrate buff, i'd prefer trotrate and stamina mainly

(and, of course, nerf to charge damage)

[steep nexus]

im sorry but what you are proposing for carno right now is just-- heavy disbalance to everything else

a carno doesnt have to hit a ram every single time

it has absurd turn radius making the chance of missing it even smaller

[dusky surge]

i don't think it should, but i also don't think it should be melted through 12 seconds of runtime for a single miss

it sucks ass at pursuits, which is sad given it's supposed to hunt small, agile and endurant small game in the open plains

not chargespam a single cera to death as its primary hunting strat

[steep nexus]

yeah thats why the speedboost of the ram was so good

[steep nexus]

also thats just saying it should hit everytime, attempting a ram has consequences and those will be the consequences

[slim dragon]

Ambush carno is perfection
Until allo or alberto is added, then it becomes obsolete

[dusky surge]

attempting a ram should have concequences that aren't ruining your chances of actually applying any meaningful pressure to your prey

[dusky surge]

i still love the fact that the existence of allo outright makes ambush carno the worst thing ever concieved

[steep nexus]

well what are the consequences now? none, except for boohoo less stam thats not even a consequence when you can ram when you're right in their face and be fine

[dusky surge]

allo has more biomes it can venture into, better ambush design, better generalist playstyles, more pack orientation, better punch-up ability, higher weight and damage and is generally just all-round better

[dusky surge]

less stam is the difference between life and death for carno

carno is one of the most stam-reliant animals in the game

(because its stamina is so egrigiously pathetic)

[steep nexus]

yes, but now-- its so not really a consequence-- i know carno relies heavily on its stam but you genuienly can just start ramming right in their face and loose an inch of what you would loose on the previous ram, its just compleatly unfun to play and play against

[dusky surge]

fun fact, a stegosaurus, the 6 ton lumbering defensive herbivore, can sprint for longer than carnotaurus, the animal which is ENTIRELY BUILT for the sole purpose of sprinting

does that not strike you as... ridiculous?

[steep nexus]

yes but a stego wont outrun a carno..? dont sprint out your whole stamina and dont be stupid and you'll be fine

[dusky surge]

also fun fact:

cera's runtime is so high, and carno's is so low, that it is entirely viable for ceras to sprint in a straight line after carnos, and it will inevitably catch and kill it

the plains predator is actually worse in plains than the bully scavenger

[steep nexus]

and no, not it doesnt because if a carno had a bunch of stamina it would be entirely unfair

[dusky surge]

not really, if you balanced it well (or put it on a non-garbage map like gateway)

[steep nexus]

its its low stamina that makes it not an op 'imma grow it and kill everything in sight' creature

[dusky surge]

have you actually SEEN gateway? it's pretty much an open death sentence to low-stam, ambush carno

[slim dragon]

Everything has the option to outmanoeuver a carno or run into a forest tho ?

[dusky surge]

that too

[steep nexus]

not if they're caught in open plains

[dusky surge]

literally forest/water = win vs carno

[slim dragon]

Being seen by a carno is not guaranteed death, as long as you're smart enough to not stay in the open for 20 minutes

[steep nexus]

then they might aswell just lay down for it

[dusky surge]

i mean... people caught in the rivers will always die to deinos, so i really don't see how the hyper-specialist for plains being dominant in plains is much worse

carno is to plains as deino is to water

[slim dragon]

If you're in the open plains you can probably spot the carno before it spots you...

[steep nexus]

also carno's are not compleatly useless in forests

[steep nexus]

not always

[slim dragon]

And even if not, unless you're playing with your eyes closed, you should have enough time to make a move

[slim dragon]

Not on spiro's plains
Which aren't really plains

[dusky surge]

with their acceleration, turnrate, inability to use the one attack worth using (charge), terrible NV and more, they might as well be

its like how deinos aren't completely useless on land, they're just mostly useless

[steep nexus]

the turnrate is absolutely insane i will not agree on that. It shouldnt be this high

[dusky surge]

what

have you played carno as of late

[steep nexus]

yes

yes i did

[dusky surge]

how can you possibly believe that turn radius is high

it is quite literally the slowest turn in the game, bar maybe deino who can do that weird beyblade stuff to compensate

[steep nexus]

was not fun one bit because all i had to do is boop right click and turn into the thing im trying to kill and be fine

[dusky surge]

yea, because carno atm is a dumb ambush animal

i'd prefer an animal that actually doesn't nuke an animal every time it hits RMB with ease

[steep nexus]

how can you believe its not high??? you would die with the old ram jesus

[dusky surge]

in a forest this thing is absolutely incompetent

[steep nexus]

...then dont make the turn radius higher...?

[slim dragon]

The turn radius isn't what oneshots things

[dusky surge]

or just nerf the charge damage (which again, absolutely should be done)

then balance the other elements

like making the stamina and trot-rate actually fair

[steep nexus]

even if it wouldnt be an ambusher it would still just have to press right click and be fine unless its stupid--

yall gonna absolutely destroy carno jesus--

[dusky surge]

it wouldn't be an ambusher because it's located in an environment that barely suits it

running up in broad daylight to an AFK raptor is not an ambush

[steep nexus]

yeah-- its not--- i never said it was

[dusky surge]

that's what most carnos define as ambushes in my experience

because carno generally sucks at ambush

so hitting anything just kinda counts

as long as it didnt react

[steep nexus]

nah its because now kids play carno because its so easy to play

[dusky surge]

you think carno, atm, is easy to play

either the people you are playing with just aren't playing or something is very wrong

because any competent animal (besides solo cera) can just ignore carno

[steep nexus]

not really..? now im just questioning how you play carno, because it can out turn an omni and im genuienly baffled you think it needs an even higher turn radius when it can already do that

[dusky surge]

it absolutely cannot outturn omni and i genuinely don't play it because i hate it so much, it's just unfun

i tend to kill carnos more than i play them

a solo carno is easy food for even a duo of omnis

[steep nexus]

oh it can, it can outturn an omni

[steep nexus]

a stupid solo carno sure

[dusky surge]

it really can't, i have absolutely no idea where you got this from

[steep nexus]

expierience playing..?

[dusky surge]

it can be the most competent carno on earth, 2 omnis will have it doomed

the only thing that defends carno from omnis is a bug that causes it to kill latched omnis

i can't tell if you love carno that you're blind to its faults, or hate carno that you don't want to see it improved from the sad state it is

[steep nexus]

not really, if a carno is just gonna stand there and let them do that then sure its gonna be doomed-- im genuienly questioning what carno's you've been going against as that you can kill with two omnis--

[steep nexus]

i want it improved, but i dont want it improved in a sense that its gonna be an overpowered beast that a 5 year old could play it like it is now

[dusky surge]

i've faced off against some of the best carnotaurus players in the stress test, and they can confirm, it's not in a good spot

[steep nexus]

how do you know they were the best? also stress test was not good and some changes were made

[dusky surge]

because i've seen them play and they've been playing carno for years

[steep nexus]

that doesnt make someone the best player, you can play a thing for your whole life and still suck

[dusky surge]

@keen plover they think u suck lol

but anyway, idk why you're so dedicated to keep carno in its sad state

as someone who has played on gateway, as carno, it stands little chance

if not freed from this bizarre ambush thing

[steep nexus]

im not, i just dont agree with the changes you want to be made-- just because i dont agree with you specifically doesnt mean i dont want it improved, i just want it improved in different senses than clicking right click and being able to do a 360 while ramming

[dusky surge]

i also don't want it to be an RMB spammer

[steep nexus]

well from what you're saying it is going to be like that

[dusky surge]

Which is why getting the charge damage nerf is imperative for its health as an animal

I have quite literally been advocating for a charge damage nerf this whole time

To outright weaken the animal's ability to overrely on it

[steep nexus]

why nerf the damage if you can nerf the turn radius and make it actually require skill though? you know? make it actually fun and challening?

[dusky surge]

a lower turn radius doesn't make it require any more skill? a lower damage requires you to actually combo attacks and follow up on attacks and not just nuke things with charge

like, in an "ambush" scenario, a lower or higher turn radius changes nothing

if they can't see you, they can't react, regardless of how fast you turn

[steep nexus]

you will still nuke things with a charge no matter if higher damage or lower damage, you will still topple them over, still be able to bite their head and they will still pretty much die, where's the skill in that?

[slim dragon]

Lowering charge's turn radius makes it worse against its designated prey - small animals
Even though I don't think carno should have an instant win against anything it's supposed to be hunting, its kit should at least help it towards its niche

[steep nexus]

no it'll just give the smaller animals an actual chance to live--

[dusky surge]

they already have that

they're extremely good at living against carno

[steep nexus]

not really

[dusky surge]

when i play smalls, carno is often my least concern, and I LOVE smalls

i rarely ever play anything bigger than a pachy

[slim dragon]

If charge reduce turns radius, then it's detrimental to use against smalls, which you can often kill with a few bites anyways
So why should it be designed that way ?

I honestly think carno shouldn't have a charge at all but rather some sort of drifting headbutt, but that's another thing

[steep nexus]

if they stay out of sight sure

[dusky surge]

what

[steep nexus]

honestly agreed with that

[dusky surge]

i literally sprint through wide open plains

it is safer to be in the open against a carno because it sucks such ass at pursuit

[steep nexus]

....good for you..? then you were met with very dumb carno's...??

[dusky surge]

i mean, it doesn't matter if they're dumb or smart

Any turn just invalidates them

[steep nexus]

it actually does

[dusky surge]

It's genuinely fun to just run circles around them

[steep nexus]

if they're smart with their bites/charge you're just an easy snack

[dusky surge]

i mean... if they can catch me, sure

but more than often, they cannot

because they turn like a constipated freight train

[steep nexus]

cause they're dumb then

[dusky surge]

idk what their turn radius has to do with their intellegence

[steep nexus]

alot because if they cant get a small creature like pachy then i am concerned

[dusky surge]

i also don't know why you keep invalidating "me being able to deal with literally every solo carno i meet" as "ah all the carnos you meet are dumb because i said so"

[steep nexus]

thats less to do with the turn radius then and more with actual thinking

[dusky surge]

like, i have tons upon tons of experience against carno, it is not a good animal, idk why you would ever think it is

[steep nexus]

because the situations you said sound absolutely baffling that a carno was not being able to get you that its just plain dumb

[dusky surge]

or it physically can't

[steep nexus]

it can

[dusky surge]

which is the thing in most situations

[steep nexus]

it can very easily

[dusky surge]

i literally don't know how

like, what magic

it turns like a bus, it literally cannot catch an opponent that has both speed and agility

i'm literally going to get on a test server to see carno's turn radius to see if there's something i missed about this mythical turn rate

[steep nexus]

there's more to a carno than just a ram, it has bites it can run off to get a better position it can slow down to alt bite it can do so much--

go on

[dusky surge]

the bites it has are... really weak all things considered, the alt-bite can only be used in defensive situations due to the fact it cannot be used while sprinting

[slim dragon]

Woah carno can slow down ? Impressive
Seriously tho, I think you two aren't talking about the same carno

[dusky surge]

i genuinely think that's it

like i feel like there's an alternate reality carno i haven't heard about lol

[steep nexus]

genuienly same at this point--

[dusky surge]

no it absolutely turns like a bus

i have literally got a fullgrown carno right here, this thing is absurdly clunky

[steep nexus]

good for you

[dusky surge]

i genuinely don't see how you're losing omnis or whatever to this

[steep nexus]

im not losing omni's im usually the one to kill them

[dusky surge]

are the omnis moving

[steep nexus]

yes

[dusky surge]

are they remembering the A and D keys on their keyboards

because a lot of omnis don't for... some reason

[steep nexus]

yes??

[dusky surge]

then they should still be alive

[steep nexus]

i-- i have never met a person that hasnt used their A and D key's

[steep nexus]

well they're not

[dusky surge]

clearly they have failed one of my two prerequisites

[steep nexus]

....sure--

[keen plover]

😦

What is this discussion

[dusky surge]

carno can easily kill any small and anyone who can't is bad

it is also an ambush predator

[keen plover]

I guess since most players literally turn off their screen while playing

[dusky surge]

and should stay as such

[keen plover]

But if the player actually is decent, then no

You shouldn't really die to a Carno

Unless you're a Cera

[dusky surge]

in which case get screwed lol

[steep nexus]

im gonna drop this conversation cause this is going no where and yall clearly treating it as a haha funny

[dusky surge]

i really am not lol

idk why you're acting like i am

[keen plover]

I wasn't either? I'm being honest here

[steep nexus]

i am too but its going nowhere so why continue this

[keen plover]

Fair. Just a bit lost on some of these claims. Like Carno being able to out turn an Omni

Which is just incorrect

[cobalt dagger]

I think, I could be wrong, but isn't the speed stat on a carno high than an omni, by a little bit? I think carno is like 52 or something and omni is like 45-49? I could have my numbers wrong

[dusky surge]

Omni is 46.8 and carno is 55.5

iirc

[cobalt dagger]

I'm not really sure much about carno or omni since I play neither and rarely interact with both, unfortunately, so I am in no position to discuss anything other than that much.
But... I do agree the discussion was more argue-y, than discussion.
Though I feel as though this is not unusual for this section, so far most of everything I've seen here has been more argue-y, than discussion-y, which makes me feel a bit sad.
Though, I am not really sure it's anything to be done about, any time you have a large number of people with different ideas, I suppose it's bound to happen.

[golden coral]

Why do you think it's meant to be an ambusher? It's really not, or if it is, it's terribly designed for it, always was when it comes to the charge. And no, the current charge turn is fine, it needs to be useful in the pursuit of the agile prey, prior charge was completely useless for it. Also yes, the changes are a step in the right direction, referring irl is ... well, not that useful in this game (lots of playables do things they couldn't do irl, so carno turning well is fine). An open plains predator, specializing in small, most of the time agile prey, has to be able to keep up with them to successfully hunt them. It's really that simple.

Also carno with terrible turn radius never required skill, it required the target to be dumb as a doorknob. There was no skill to prior carno charge because it didn't matter how good you were, only that the target never moved at all. There's also the fact that most players are terrible. You killing omnis, says a lot more about how bad they are, than how good you are, or how good carno is. If we look at carno purely stat wise, it is not a very good animal, not in a very good spot, and not really good at doing it's supposed job. That's all there is to that.

[dawn falcon]

Carno was originally, by the devs, supposed to be a pursuit predator. I don’t know where people get the info that Carno is intended to be an ambush predator

[dusky surge]

i'd assume that's because it simply hasn't ever performed well as a pursuit predator in EVRIMA

so people just have assumed it's an ambusher

it doesn't help that its primary biome is more suited to an ambush lifestyle than it should be

[golden coral]

It's probably far more simple. Old charge only hit more or less afk targets. As such, the only reliable way to ever land the charge was by "ambushing" something (as in attacking something that was not paying any form of attention to anything)

[dusky surge]

@hushed ibex to add onto your feedback, pachy is only a measly 1.5km/hr faster than cerato. On top of this, cerato has a MUCH faster trotrate, and nearly equal stamina

Pachy def needs either a stam or speed buff

[hushed ibex]

Honestly, like Im super content with the idea of pachy's hit and run, but with cera there is not hit in run, its just hit and die or run and die

[dusky surge]

yea, cera legit has fracture resist

so pachy can't even rely on that lol

[hushed ibex]

Yah like attempting to do what you're supposed to do as pachy is only getting you killed faster

Even if that doesnt out right kill you the stamina consumption from the ram will

[dusky surge]

i'd personally want cera to be slower than it is, but pachy itself also needs some help

i feel cera is weirdly fast considering everything said about it

[hushed ibex]

Yah like in general, without stuns pachy most of the time will end up being pressed against what it rams giving them an opening for a fatal attack, increasing speed or even its turn rate could help negate the 50% heal tax from doing your attack

[hushed ibex]

Yah the survivalist scavenger that cant hunt seems to have a really easy time hunting just about anything

[dusky surge]

like pachy was purposely made slow, and it's like, 5km/hr slower than its main matchup, omni

cera is literally .1km/hr slower than a tenonto and has absolutely insane stamina on top of like, a hundred other small buffs that it can also take advantage of

[hushed ibex]

Yah insane turnrate and 1 second frame alt bite, using charge bite without any stamina, gaining bacteria just by eating anything

[dusky surge]

did you know it also has one of t he best swimspeeds and swim durations in the game

[hushed ibex]

And can alt attack in water, yah

[dusky surge]

and is the only terrestrial animal capable of alt-biting in the water

[hushed ibex]

Mhm

Cant even let teno claw in water

[dusky surge]

not even mentioning the fact it can ignore bleed and in some cases just outright ignore damage

Cerato has FOUR different kinds of resistance btw

Bleed resist, fracture resist, passive damage resist when near a corpse, active damage resist when eating

[hushed ibex]

Cera is way too overtuned

[dusky surge]

The active damage resist makes it that omni bites literally do 0 damage

[hushed ibex]

And a full pounce simply tickles it

[dusky surge]

I'm FINE with it being a defensive powerhouse that can ignore omnis

But the fact that it is also an offensive terror that strikes fear into literally every animal and will run you down doesn't really... fit

[hushed ibex]

Aside from that its just too overtuned for sure, like they can outstam omni completely

It really needs to be slower.. or pachy and teno could use speed, and omni could have more stamina

[dusky surge]

they should focus more on the defensive potential and just remove the things that make it such a frustrating hunter

[hushed ibex]

Regardless cera is in a bit too high of a place rn for just being a body bully

Eating buff could definitely go

Same with fract resist (if the devs are too stubborn to up pachy speed/stam)

In a way tho I get why it's quick I guess, but cera is just fast enough with all that stamina where it can freely tail ride pachy and even tenos in some cases to death

[calm ibex]

to all you pvp pros, why does cera need such an absurd amount of running stam

[dusky surge]

it doesn't

unless its speed is low enough to warrant it

which it is not

[hollow canyon]

(really depends on whether by "perform well" you mean that it was in the right spot balance-wise or strong, cause if it's the latter then that's when it performed the best)

[dawn falcon]

It has 100% performed well as a pursuit predator. Back when Carno was relatively agile in 4.5 and 6, it felt like an actual nightmare to deal with in the plains, as it should.

[dusky surge]

Update 6 kinda had it get overshadowed with its good elements with the "I have a celestial body for a hitbox and you WILL die"

Imagine carno now if it never got that hitbox

Honestly, old carno with the new accel and a fixed hitbox would literally be all I want from the animal if we're talking the bare minimum

I feel that carno with current acceleration but everything else U6 would be passable enough to be worth keeping around

[dawn falcon]

Agreed

[dusky surge]

why does beipi have to kill things to be good lol

it can kick a troodon's brain in and obliterates juvis for fun

enough for me

[cosmic pelican]

Also bleed is such a bad defensive tool, unless they want beipi to hunt things for some weird reason...

[dusky surge]

well considering they used the term hunt, i'd assume yes, that's what they want

[slim dragon]

Oh I just got an idea that might be horrible but could make bleed more useful for defensive purpose ?
What if being low on blood makes you slower ? Or reduces your damage output ?

[dusky surge]

cruel and unusual

[slim dragon]

Actually it would be useless
By the time your attacker gets low on blood you're already dead

[dusky surge]

basically used to kick an already dying creature while its doomed lol

[slim dragon]

I remember I had another idea that I'd like your opinion about

It's about a comfort system, that I'd rather call "wellbeing"
It's a bar like halth or blood that can go between 100% and 0%
At 100% wellbeing you get some buffs (not sure which ones) and at 0% you get debuffs
The idea is that some of the buffs and debuffs would be used to replace some of the current diets' buffs or debuffs, or other effects
In order to spread minmaxing your dino's potential onto more systems, so it's not just about food

And how wellbeing increases/reduces is that :
Being well fed/well hydrated progressively increases wellbeing
Being starving or dehydrating reduces wellbeing very fast
Losing health instantly reduces wellbeing by a small amount
As long as you have missing health, your wellbeing slowly decreases, the speed depends on how much health you have missing

Then other factors could be taken into account, it all depends on how many things we want to influence wellbeing or not
Like wallowing in mud gives a small boost to wellbeing ?

[dusky surge]

i'd have comfort primarily impact stuff like growth rate, how healthy your elder is, potentially nesting buffs like egg-incubation speed, so on, stuff that just... doesn't matter in direct combat

[slim dragon]

Yeah that's what I was thinking too

Tying combat potential to how happy your dino is sounds terrible

Also being near hatchlings of the same species could increase wellbeing :P

[stiff wagon]

#balance-feedback message i dont think beipi needs a bite force of 40n, but maybe the claw attack could have 40n

[plucky aspen]

i believe the claw is 100.. its enough to 1 shot another beipi iirc

[stiff wagon]

Wasnt 30?

Also the alt attack is the claw damage + bite damage

[plucky aspen]

Maybe im mistaken, but if it 1 shots a beipi, which has 90HP. it should be dealing over 90N of biteforce

my guess is its claw is any where from 100-120

well" bite force"

[stiff wagon]

Yeah but the alt attack of the beipi are two attacks with separate damage

[plucky aspen]

this is just the normal claw attack them im talkin about

[stiff wagon]

You cant 1 shot troodon with claw attack to the body

[plucky aspen]

i would just say "right click" or "left click" but it changes whether yer in water or not lol

[plucky aspen]

how much does a troo weigh? i dont remember

[stiff wagon]

60

[plucky aspen]

but it can 1 shot a beipi? weird.

[stiff wagon]

You need two claws attack to kill troo

[plucky aspen]

maybe later ill hop on a free admin with a friend and see how much it does. we'll see

[tiny tartan]

beipis alt does rougly 112.5 iirc for a head shot

and alt does 75 on body

[tiny tartan]

the base claw attack does 20, which is why you 2 shoot troodon in the head

[tiny tartan]

but yes i agree that the claws should do 40n and bite should stay 20

[alpine sequoia]

I think cerato is a little weak right now, does anyone think that? It cant even comfortably fight off a carno without a body. so what is the point of playing cera if you cant kill what can catch you?

[dusky surge]

no, i think cera is fine, i just think carno is designed extremely strangely

cera is still powerful, if not overpowered, it's just invalidated by carno's bizarre design choices

[alpine sequoia]

yeah, cera is fine against everything else honestly. I guess its really just carno. I never really noticed lol now that I think about it

also, when did they patch ceratos vomit locking? cause I wanna find out how they did that, such as a cooldown on vomiting or something

[dusky surge]

Carno manages to be both EXTREMELY bad at what it’s meant to do and an overall weak animal, but good at one thing and one thing only. Killing ceras

Cera is powerful, carno is weak, but carno has just the right tools to shred ceras, so it’s growing in popularity as an animal that can effectively kill the otherwise dominant cera.

[alpine sequoia]

yes

[dusky surge]

You can alt-bite to cancel the vomit animation

[alpine sequoia]

Doesnt that make vomit useless?

well kindof I guess

it does bring down your max stamina and such but otherwise it isnt that good

[slim dragon]

Vomit was never supposed to be a stunlocking tool

[sudden moat]

Yeah that's true I kind of regret it when I post it 😂

[alpine sequoia]

I know

[steep echo]

How does giving Dryosaurus a short wall scurrying ability sound? Using right click while hitting a more or less vertical surface allows it to claw upwards for an extra bit of height. The extra distance can help access higher tree trunks or rocks that are just out of your reach, and gives it an edge over the galli which fills a similar role by having better verticality

[cosmic pelican]

"We should make herbivores weak throwaway dinosaurs."

[cobalt dagger]

@olive wraith
I think if we make herbivores grow faster, we will still see too many carnivores. Currently, Deino is one of the slowest growing, and one of the most popular. I think I see more stegos than any other herbivore, too.
Both are slow growing - but, also, both are powerful. I think people are attracted to power.
But, people are also attracted to what's 'cool' and like to play as a creature they like conceptually, and many think carnivores like Carno and Raptor are more 'cool' than herbivores. You gotta increase the 'coolness' factor of herbivores, I think, to attract more players. But it will be hard to compete with the general public seeing carnivores as 'cool.'

Personally I think herbivores are really neat, but not everyone does.

It's a hard thing to solve, perhaps. I mean... A lot of people like carnivorous animals as opposed to herbivore animals. Even our most common pets, cats and dogs, are carnivores.

[olive wraith]

Deino is apex, so the long grow time is expected and isnt enough of a deterant for too many people picking it. Now if you had something that was a herbivore and slightly less powerful while having a Drastically faster grow time than deino, people would go for that.

Teno is almost on par with Carno and Cera so if it had a significantly faster grow time than those two, id expect it would automatically become more popular.

[golden coral]

So, basically stego then? If we cut that growth time down, it'd be more popular than deino? I don't know, honestly. I'm not sure that teno would be that much more popular than carno and cera, especially since teno requires some form of skill, compared to cera and carno.

[silver quartz]

Lol Flamed and LeventxGod in game are absolute pansies, played with them all day and they just tried to kill me but are garby. Don't trust them

[olive wraith]

I'd argue stego is pretty much on par with deino. And people pick those because they are relatively safe picks.

I think your underplaying the impact grow time has on players decision making. If I could get something 10% less powerful for half the grow time, I'll go for that everytime. (Once enough players pick it, you also get safety in numbers hence accounting for that 10% disadvantage).

Herbivores (specifically herd animals) need to be atleast slightly weaker than their Carnivore counterparts (so hunting is possible) but they should have greater numbers. (Something to make hunting difficult).

And I'd argue faster grow times is a very good incentive.

[cobalt dagger]

Grow time might affect different people differently

Personally I love being rewarded with more power for more effort surviving - I love having a long, challenging grow time rewarded with great power at the end.

I would not pick faster grow times over power, ever.

But everyone is different. Maybe some would go for faster growtime.

I think many people though, go for carnivores because they think they are cool.

The other issue being, I think people don't want to be hunted. That's the thing, deino and stego are mostly just hunted by their own kind... Especially Deino.

A lot of people come to play the hunter, not the hunted. While I personally am okay playing the hunted if my effort to survive is rewarded, I don't think I am the majority there.

I do agree though that having too many carnivores is a bit unrealistic/herbivores are far too few. It's a challenge to make herbivores fun - I think you might have to find a way to make an herbivore appeal to a carnivore player, somehow. If you like carnivore, what would make you enjoy herbivore?

Understanding that, you would play herbi if the grow time were faster (I think you meant this much, right?) I think you have the right idea! Just unfortunately, not everyone is attracted to the same playstyle I guess.

[olive wraith]

So do you always play apex? That's where that logic leads.

Let's say we have 3 animals, 1 herbivore and 2 carnivores.

Carnivore A is 70% powerful and 4 hours to grow.

Carnivore B is 35% powerful and 1 hour to grow.

Herbivore is 60% powerful and 1 hour to grow.

Do you still think the herbivore won't get picked as much?

[golden coral]

I'd agree on the choice somewhat, if it wasn't also factors like skill and so on involved, plus how good offensively vs defensively something is, and so on. And not sure on the herd thing, generally not that of a good idea to balance like that. Sure, stego and deino is on par, more or less, in some ways at least, but so is teno and cera/carno, a good teno can absolutely take them on.

But even if you made teno grow faster, cera and carno would still be easier to play, to survive with in general and to fight with especially. And they'd both be better at hunting and killing, something people love to do in this game, than the defensively oriented, not very group friendly teno.

[cobalt dagger]

I don't always, but the majority of the server does play apex. We can't look only at me, or only at you, we need to look at the majority, since our goal is to attract the majority towards herbi and away from carnivore. I can tell you what I like, but I cannot speak for all.

However yeah I'd pick Carnivore A I guess, but like, depends on a lot of things - Skill for example. Like, I play teno. I know where to drink so crocs don't get me, and I stay away from stegos. Everything else, I need to be skilled to live. If Teno had a longer grow time, I'd still play it, because I love the skill-based challenge.

[golden coral]

Sure, with that massive difference, the herbi would be more popular than carni B, at least as long as the skill and kill capability factors are similar

But that's the eqvivalent of making para as powerful, almost, as a rex but growing at the time of an omni, I'm not sure how that balance would work out

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I agree... A lot of people come to HUNT, and CHASE... And that's a carnivore thing. You could make an herbi that could hunt and chase, then I'd seriously expect to see people play it - But would it be right to have herbis hunting carnivores?

[golden coral]

You'd already see that. Galli can hunt down things, sure it's an "omnivore" but still. Pachy used to be able to be viciously effective at it, and it was popular for that reason. Even dryo were popular at the time it could kill carnos and stegos effectively, and so on. People will choose what gives them the most killing power for time invested, hence why carno and omni are always popular since they are very good, even more so in groups (omni when its pounce work that is).

[olive wraith]

I don't know what your point is here... I don't know how you reached that conclusion :/ ?

[golden coral]

Using your numbers? 70% power, but 4 hours growth, and 60% power, almost as high, but 1 hour growth?

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I noticed that too, herbis who can chase are the ones people like most.

People in this game like to kill.

[golden coral]

Yup. So it's not just time to grow itself that matters

[cobalt dagger]

Deino can live off of fish without being nutritionally deficient. But that doesn't stop them from killing players.

[olive wraith]

So you think rex is 70% power and para is 60%... or what, I'm not following?

[golden coral]

But time to grow, effectiveness in killing, group scaling/synergy, survivability in general (you need to survive so you can kill stuff), and skill required to get the kills compared to investment

[cobalt dagger]

And when I ask people what they like they usually tell me they come to kill, some even say they kill babies and unfair fights, regardless of challenge- That they enjoy getting kills more than they enjoy being challenged.

[golden coral]

Yes, to use playables for the example.

[cobalt dagger]

This is what people have told me, anyway.

[olive wraith]

Alot of people play herbivores to nest and play defensively... legacy is a good example.

[cobalt dagger]

Does legacy have more herbis?

I don't play much legacy

[golden coral]

No idea why you'd even go herbi to nest in legacy considering AI xD

[cobalt dagger]

Actually I've only played like 2-3 hours of legacy before switching to evrima

[golden coral]

Eh, maybe there were more, but most herbis weren't that good, and the carnis had some really good playables. I'd argue carnis were overall more popular, especially apex carnis.

[cobalt dagger]

I do wonder if more ai would help people spread out around the map more in evrima

[olive wraith]

Legacy has more of everything.

[cobalt dagger]

That sounds about right. Watching old videos and also reading stats on the wiki, I noticed carnivores were much more powerful

Like, I mean, did legacy have more herbivore players than carnivore players?

[golden coral]

No idea any longer, but it's doubtful, overall I imagine carnis were more popular, though back in prog herbis were popular

But that was a combination of fast progression due to plants and powerful end herbis

As well as the fact that you could get back in 10 minutes compared to 10 hours for a shant compared to rex :p

[cobalt dagger]

I do think, ideally, herbi should be a defensive playstyle/It fits them... I just don't know that the majority of the playerbase wants to be defensive.

[olive wraith]

I personally don't get the attraction for nesting but I definitely wouldn't mind fighting 3 carnos in a pack of 4 tenos while only spending half the time growing.

Also, I don't think it's specifically hunting, what people want. It's more of the fight.

[golden coral]

I'd say it depends on the playable

[cobalt dagger]

Get back?- As in, get into the server, or grow again?

[golden coral]

Like, ceratopsids are offensively built, stego is defensive. Carno is highly offensive, cera is designed to be defensive. And so on.

[golden coral]

Grow, or well, progress in that game mode.

[cobalt dagger]

I think people use cera very offensively these days XD

[golden coral]

Since progression did not have growth, just various dinos you progressed through to reach the end xD

[cobalt dagger]

I've had like 3 ceras face-tank my teno's tail and die. Not a GOOD idea but that didn't stop them from playing offensive

[cobalt dagger]

Ahh okay that makes sense

[golden coral]

Yeah, it's the figthting. Now consider that those three carnos, are overall, way better at the killing than the tenos

So even if you grow the tenos faster, you are more efficient as the carnos

You also have more survivability in general due to speed and all that, and you have much less of a skill requirement to be good with those carnos, compared to the tenos

[cobalt dagger]

Teno's biggest damage is his tail which is BEHIND him... He can chase but he can only nip you while you run away... Not much of an offensive dino.

[golden coral]

Three carnos are lethal, and can fight defensively way better than four tenos can unless you got the best tenos on the server

[olive wraith]

Then you would have to balance the game.... limit the carnos to 2 per pack or increase the teno group limit to 5... or tweak the stats.

[cobalt dagger]

Deino pack limit is 2 but they hunt in 3's and 4's anyway

[golden coral]

It's not just the numbers

It's also how the playables work

How they scale with the numbers, and so on

I get what you're going for, but you're missing a bunch of factors that matters for the player

[olive wraith]

Separate issue that needs addressing by the devs

[olive wraith]

Elaborate?

[golden coral]

You spend 5 hours as carno, you know how to kill stuff. You spend 15 hours as teno, you might be able to figure one attack out. I am exaggerating but there's a massive difference there in how a good carno works vs a good teno. So if you just want to get on and kill stuff, teno won't be your go to, even if it grows fast.

And then you got the scaling. Carno charge scales incredibly well in groups, due to how it requires a target to be unable to juke, and having 4 carnos coming at you at the same time, tends to ensure at least one of them hits you every time. Meanwhile, teno is not at all a good "herd" animal, it's main weapons are both defensive, with the tail having reach enough to risk collateral, and it knocks down/staggers on friendly fire, just like the kick. Plus it also does massive damage/bleed in the case of the kick.

This means that in a group fight, the carno is far better overall, while the tenos are at much greater risk of killing or severely harming each other, and require far more planning and positioning to be good. They also can't set the pace as easily, being slower, while the carnos are fast and with the right diet, can actually run around and thus set the pace as they wish.

So, just lowering growth times, or adding numbers, isn't going to change all the other factors that matter if a playable is good at killing or not, and efficient for the cost and investment you put into it.

[cobalt dagger]

Many times as a teno I've been hurt more by my own group than the enemy. To the point where, when a fight comes, I run AWAY from my group and fight solo a little ways away, and come back if I think they need help and I can help them (but if I do so I try to be very careful not to hit them!)

[olive wraith]

This seems like a skill issue... if the Tenos have enough numbers to making defending themselves possible, then its on the players to coordinate... also not sure what wins (Carno ram or teno slam... if its not the teno slam then it should be changed).

[golden coral]

Sounds about right. Teno is difficult to get right, but if you do know your stuff, you're lethal as can be. And a group can be highly effective, but they really have to know how to go about it.

[golden coral]

Yes, yes it is a skill issue as it were. And my point is that teno requires so much more skill, that if you do want to just go around killing, it's not a good choice, compared to the others.

But it's not just a carno vs teno matchup

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah... I would agree with this assessment

[golden coral]

But carno compared to teno, vs everything else

Since we're talking about what makes a playable popular, which tends to be killing efficiency

Which is not limited to one matchup

A sufficient group of tenos is very much a threat, but you get that level of threat, vs most things, much easier with other playables

[olive wraith]

Utah is pretty popular... yet it isn't very efficient. Its a mix of different factors.... grow time being one of them.

[golden coral]

Omni is incredibly efficient, when it's pounce works

[olive wraith]

Lol

[golden coral]

It's a popular critter, but not popular as it stands due to well, pounce doing whatever it wants, as per usual

[olive wraith]

A single cera can bully a whole pack

[golden coral]

When pounce worked, back in 5/5.5 with the magnetic pounce, it was one of the most lethal things around, and sufficiently popular as a result

[olive wraith]

Carno is outright better at everything.

[golden coral]

Not really, you just need to know how to go about taking one down. But also, yes, because cera has massive bleed resistance, so there is that.

But overall, omni is far more efficient than most, at least now that cera vomit lock is somewhat fixed

But cera is a bit overtuned still perhaps, and carno on the other hand is hilariously enough undertuned an overtuned at the same time

[cobalt dagger]

I've noticed omni to be pretty lethal for a lot of things, with the bleed out. Though, I've also found sometimes you can kill them as they are trying to pounce on you. But also I've noticed from playing Omni, that not everyone seems to know that or even tries like I do to do that.

[golden coral]

Omnis have always been very scary, and their greatest enemy has always been their pounce bugging out, or performance in general

[olive wraith]

You guys seem very unexperienced with strong opinions... I don't think we can get very far.

[golden coral]

Inexperienced?

[olive wraith]

Yeah that word.

[golden coral]

Yes, I meant more so, why do you say that?

[cobalt dagger]

Well, I AM inexperienced. But I don't think I'd say I have a strong opinion - I just think people will play carnivore more unless herbi is somehow given more killing power.

Because I think people want to kill. Granted, I don't, but, it seems like the majority does.

[golden coral]

That'd be correct, yes. That is how the playerbase works, for good or ill :p

And while you might be inexperienced, I've been around since early 2016, so I'd argue I have a decent idea of things in general

[olive wraith]

Atleast one of you said you only played legacy a few matches.... then rest of the judgement comes from what you guys have been saying balance wise.

[cobalt dagger]

That one was me.

I'm the inexperienced one here and I was the one who said that. XD

[golden coral]

Well, I have plenty enough hours in both legacy and evrima

But granted, maybe you've experienced something differently while playing

[olive wraith]

OK good... what can a pack of utahs do against 3 carnos, or 4 ceras?

Except avoid (in the case of ceras) and jump on high place (in the case of carnos).

[cobalt dagger]

But well, I don't think I need experience to say that people are big fans of carnivore dinosaurs. I mean geeze, a carnivore dinosaur is on the front of the store page for The Isle and it's logo is a carnivore dinosaur skull with a human skull in it-

[golden coral]

3 carnos, it does depend on how well you can juke their charges. Given that you can trick them enough, you can wear them down and then kill them. But most of the time, the option would be to run away, very fast, becuase that's your main predator. Vs the ceras, you can most likely eventually take them out, but it'd be a very long and hard fight, especially since they get the funny body down buff when one of them finally dies. You'd have to either be very patient with tap pounces, or risk biting them to lower their health first. In general, in both cases, you do not want to fight either of the groups when they have clear line of sight on you.

This assuming you have a full pack of 8 omnis that is

If we go with the idea that all sides have their max numbers

[olive wraith]

The answer I was expecting was "Nothing", but I guess what you described is possible if the utahs are sufficiently skilled while the ceras/carnos are sufficient unskilled.

[golden coral]

Why would you get the answer of nothing when fights can go in various ways :p

Though going up against three carnos is not a good time, see earlier comments about carno scaling very well

Ceras are just a pain and a half to get rid of due to resistances, and they will follow you forever

But then you can just make distance, crouch and disappear

[olive wraith]

Well because I'm usually in the pack of 3 carnos and it's almost always a slaughter... if we get hurt, we run away or use terrain to stop pounces.

[golden coral]

Consider the fact that you have to use terrain to stop the pounces. How would it go if you had no terrain to use? Also I'm going to assume you're all running the carb diet, because otherwise you're not running for that long

Especially not if you've also charged a fair few times

[olive wraith]

A fun thing to do is go near a cliff, wait for 1 to pounce you and aim them at the cliff edge... when they dismount, they go bye bye.

[golden coral]

Though since most omnis aren't the sharpest ones around, and carno is rather easy to use in groups, it's no real surprise it goes that way overall, at least in that matchup

Meanwhile, two omnis can put one carno on the defensive just as easily

[olive wraith]

What Carno isn't running the carb diet xD... I usually run 2 x S and 1 x Dots.

[golden coral]

Fair, I think three carbs are the best overall, for most playables

[olive wraith]

I think it takes 3 omnis. I've never had trouble with only 2.

[golden coral]

Stego can have use of the bleed resist, cera for the health regen maybe, but everyone else having carbs is just the best option

[olive wraith]

I mean 2 x dots and 1 x S

[golden coral]

Better off with three dots xD

Unless you run into a lot of pachies I guess :p

But now they can't stun you anymore so you should be fine regardless

[olive wraith]

I like the extra health... I usually trot everywhere so 2 x dots is enough.

[golden coral]

Fair, but -25% drain is, well, very nice :p

[olive wraith]

True.

[golden coral]

Though I'm vaugely impressed you prefer to trot, normally trots are a bit too slow, and some are just atrocious xD

[olive wraith]

As Carno you're kinda forced to do so if you wana be safe... else you get run down xD

[golden coral]

Hence the max carbs diet, so you can run more or less xD

Also keep somewhat close to forest lines if you're too worried

Sure, you're large, but given enough distance + crouch, you should be good to hide

Unless you're running bright red and yellow colors or so :D

[olive wraith]

Lmao... that's literally what I'm running

[golden coral]

Yeah okay, then you have a case for being more wary than most

I tend to favour green colors, so I can get away with the whole "just stand still in bush"

[olive wraith]

But yeah, I'm genuinely sick of evrima... its always 20 carnos vs 20 ceras face off.

Hence I want there to be more herbivores

[golden coral]

Oh I can agree on the sentiment, I just don't think it's quite as simple as you made it out to be

Killing power seems to be the biggest factor, no matter if we like it or not

[olive wraith]

I don't think I made it simple, other adjustments will need to be made but I think grow time is a significant factor and it can be used to help with population control.

[dusky surge]

making teno a better animal is better than making it a quicker animal to grow

most if not all the herbis in the game atm are too weak

[olive wraith]

That would mean an overpopulation of teno.

[dusky surge]

no it wouldn't?

the only time a herbi has ever been OP is during U6 pachypocalypse, because it was THAT good

[golden coral]

Well, we did want more herbis?

[dusky surge]

it was an insanely powerful animal

[olive wraith]

If people go with powerful, and you make teno more powerful... then it would -_-

[golden coral]

To be fair, making it better does not equate to making it more powerful neccesarily

[dusky surge]

teno does need a little power boost tho imho

its fallen behind due to numerous unneeded nerfs

and buffs to primary predators

[olive wraith]

Better how? If you make it be able to easily beat carnivores, then you'd end up with more tenos, hence more teno herds, which would take it off the menu for other mid tier carnis.

[dusky surge]

i don't see what's wrong with a herbi having an easy time beating a carni? It should defend itself

It should be up to the carnivore to figure out the best way to hunt and use skill to kill an opponent, not up to the herbivore to try its goddamn hardest to just not die

[olive wraith]

I think herbivores need to have the "strength in numbers" playstyle... atleast the herding ones.

[dusky surge]

that's a REALLY bad way to balance them

because it means no one will ever want to play them

[olive wraith]

But it's not... that's essentially how utahs are balanced.

[dusky surge]

animals should be self-sufficient, even omni and troodon, MASSIVE pack animals, can survive confidently without groups

[dusky surge]

they aren't, omni is more than capable of hunting smaller game and AI without the presence of large packs

needing a pack to hunt is not the same as needing a herd to survive

one means you eat less, the other means you die more

this kind of herding mindset is what makes herbivores underplayed in the first place

[olive wraith]

If you make herbivores strong enough to 1 vs 1 their counterparts, then you will have more herbivores. So you end up with herds that are off the menu for carnivores. (Herding doesn't allow them to survive, but thrive).

[golden coral]

No, no it's not. Omnis can survive and be viable solo, or in pairs. So must the herbis as well.

Also you can balance that way for offense, but not for defense

Since you don't need to kill larger critter to survive

But you do need to defend/evade it

[dusky surge]

we had a time where tenonto was easily outclassing carno and omni, and people still played more carno and omni than teno, because the allure of carnivore is irresistable. The difference was you actually saw tenontos sometimes

[olive wraith]

Teno can jump on places where carnos cannot get to them... they can also hide in forests until they herd up.

[golden coral]

So balancing for groups like that, is terrible, and leads to the playable just not being played.

[dusky surge]

A tenonto should get in herds to be prepared for larger packs of carnivores, not to be prepared for a single carnivore. 3 tenos should beat 3 carnos, for instance

[olive wraith]

Did we have a time where tenos had a significantly quicker growth time?

[golden coral]

Herbis don't need to be able to 1v1 their equivalent carni in a fight, they just need to survive it

[dusky surge]

Nope, because that wouldn't change people

Dryo grows really fast, how many people are playing that

[golden coral]

So sure, a teno can just swim away, or jump away (for all of what the jump worth is), and that still means the carni fails the hunt

[olive wraith]

Bro wtf -_-... answer that yourself

[dusky surge]

Growth time doesn't matter, make the herbivore actually decent in the ecosystem

[golden coral]

But if tenos do not need to herd up to survive, they would still just be better in a herd

[dusky surge]

Teno and pachy got unfairly beat down in U6.5

[olive wraith]

Growth time absolutely matters.

[golden coral]

Well, not so much in tenos case but still

[olive wraith]

If I had the choice between teno or utah... I'd personally take teno.

For the same growth time that is

[dusky surge]

Shorter knockdown timers, tailslam got an arbitrary damage nerf, alt-bites unusable while running

All of these impacted tenos hard

[golden coral]

I know, I was mostly talking about tenos finding use in a herd :p

[dusky surge]

I personally think more should be done to make the animal worth the hours, not just reduce the hours

[golden coral]

I would too, but I like teno. Most players would still choose omni because raptor cool + carnivore cool + better killing potential and mobility and so on

[dusky surge]

Also a faster growing teno still doesn't solve some of its glaring issues

[olive wraith]

It's issues can be compensated for by being in a herd

[dusky surge]

It should be allowed to survive on its own

[olive wraith]

Its what real world herbivores do

[dusky surge]

Real world herbivores do herd up for safety, and a more powerful tenonto still would to

[golden coral]

But this is a game

[dusky surge]

Because a teno can be strong, but it's going to get beat down by larger carnivores or carnivores in groups

[golden coral]

So let's not balance for real life when it doesn't work out very well in a game

[olive wraith]

But that would make it too difficult for carnivores then

[dusky surge]

A zebra, for instance, can kick a lion so hard it dies, but it still gets into a herd in the case several lions decide to attack at once

[golden coral]

Isn't that kind of desireable, carnivores having it way harsher

[dusky surge]

Just like real life, carnivores are hard

[golden coral]

That'd also make herbis more popular, easier to survive as

[dusky surge]

You need to actually HUNT clever, rather than run at a full adult in a 1v1 and expect a win

[golden coral]

More so the hope that the lions go for one of the other ones xD

[dusky surge]

Remember, we have younger juvis that could act as food, and a competent carnivore can still hunt and kill herbivores, it just can't braindead attack it and expect the win

[golden coral]

We could make tenos far better at escaping, that would work

But that would not make carni life any easier, and a herd would just behave more like dryos, scatter instead of fight

A herd fights only if it's members are designed to fight in the first place, or they outnumber the pack so massively that they can just attrition the hunter down. But normally a dryo herd would not stand and fight vs a pair of omnis, even if they have the numbers, because well, dryos... xD Even gallis might want some extra numbers (though they are apparently quite lethal with their kicks so maybe not)

[olive wraith]

I don't know why you guys are being so damn difficult... this is the way I see it:

Currently, teno loses in a 1 vs 1 against Carno. I think this is fine, the way to balance it is make it much easier to grow, so you have greater numbers. Now carnos would have to use skill to kill one from your herd.

If you make teno more powerful, it will likely get played more, hence it will naturally have herds. That's a double hit to the carnivores ability to hunt one. Herding herbivores should be forced to herd.

[dusky surge]

So eat grass and die?

[olive wraith]

What do you mean?

[dusky surge]

Requiring herding animals to herd to survive is just bad, it makes it exceptionally unfun and just means you aren't allowed to engage in the solo experience

Pack carnivores like omni and troodon are given the luxury of self-sufficiency, but apparently herbivores that like groups can't have that same luxury

[olive wraith]

Utahs eat ai and die... that's your logic.

[golden coral]

Because that's a bad way to balance. People won't grow it, because even if it's faster to grow, you just die if you're solo. So people will die before they find a group, and give up. Teno could lose in a fight vs carno, that's fine, if it can reliably escape instead. But then that would still mean teno is viable solo, and doesn't require a group to be fine.

[dusky surge]

Omni and troodon are both fast and agile enough to evade predators trying to kill them, with ample stam to escape. Tenonto is not as fast or as agile or as stealthy, and you also expect it to not be able to competently 1v1 its predator

[golden coral]

Carno should require skill to kill a single teno, simple as that.

Or skill to kill anything, really. Be it fighting a teno, or catching a dryo.

[dusky surge]

Carnos should significantly struggle attempting to take down a teno

[golden coral]

No, nothing should be forced to herd, or pack, to survive. This is fundamental, things have to be viable on their own. Be it a herd animal or pack animal, it has to be survivable solo, simple as that.

[olive wraith]

They already do... if the teno is smart anyway.

[dusky surge]

The game as it stands is LITTERED with corpses, so much so that the centre spawn is universally unplayable, yet carnivores need to kill rather than eat what they can find littered all over the floor

[golden coral]

No, omni can hunt a good few things on it's own. And even troodon will, especially when we get the rest of the tiny ones.

[olive wraith]

What can omni hunt?

[dusky surge]

In the case of galli, it benefits TONS from being in herds, despite absolutely not needing it because it has a speed so high, anything that isn't a carno can't catch it

[golden coral]

You're arguing that omnis should require at lest 3 omnis to hunt anything

[olive wraith]

That's literally the case bro... wtf

[golden coral]

Dryo, galli, pachy if you're brave, juvies under 449 kg, small stegos even if they are heavier because lack of reach as juvie, and so on.

[dusky surge]

Troodon, galli, beipi, dryo, hypsi, ptera, any juvi basically, AI (obviously)

[dusky surge]

No it isn't?

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting we have troodon and beipi as well

[olive wraith]

Everything can clap juvis... no one plays the others

[golden coral]

So no, solo omni is quite viable, given that it has a bunch of prey items it does not require a pack to hunt

So, teno by the same token, should not require a herd to survive

[dusky surge]

And you think a faster growth time will get more people onto dryo?

[golden coral]

So, juvies are still very much part and parcel of a hunters prey items, just like older and wounded targets, and so on

[dusky surge]

Or galli?

[golden coral]

And the others are played, far as I know at least

[olive wraith]

No, but dryo isn't 1600kg

[golden coral]

What... does that have to do with it?

No one plays dryo becuase it cant fight

[dusky surge]

So you can at least somewhat see that "herbis grow fast" isn't an actual solution to their underpopulation

[golden coral]

And currently fighting is the only fun thing to do

[olive wraith]

Yes... a herd of dryo is as good as a single dryo.... useless

While teno isn't the case

[golden coral]

A herd of dryos can mob an omni or so and kill it, but yes, so the issue is capability to fight, not growth time

[olive wraith]

Omg

[dusky surge]

Hence teno should be less weirdly pathetic

[golden coral]

Adjust teno, and more importantly, adjust cera and carno

[dusky surge]

The way you seem to be looking at it is you want more OTHER people to play herbi so you can hunt them, without understanding why people play herbi

[golden coral]

Also give better map so teno can actually wade/swim without deino everywhere xD

[olive wraith]

It would be less pathetic if it had greater numbers... incentivise its use without making it more powerful.

[dusky surge]

Because not wanting teno to be allowed to defend itself from predators is a bizarre take

[golden coral]

No it wouldnt

[dusky surge]

No it wouldn't at all

[golden coral]

Because solo teno would still be pathetic, and people would see that

[dusky surge]

Playing a teno is less interesting because it literally gets seen by carno and dies

[golden coral]

Not that solo teno is that bad, but the point still stands

People don't care for something if it has to group up to be viable

No one wants to play something that goes "You have to have x numbers to survive in the first place"

If you did that to omni, no one would want to be one

[dusky surge]

Omni is different because "you have x numbers to kill bigger and bigger things"

[golden coral]

Because it can still hunt smaller things on its own

There's nothing that require at least 3 omnis to kill

[dusky surge]

But on its own, omni can escape most things

[golden coral]

So there shouldn't be anything that require at least 3 tenos to survive

[olive wraith]

If you make teno strong enough to beat its counterparts in a 1 vs 1, then you end up with herds of bored tenos running down ceras and carnos.

[dusky surge]

If you want an example of a fast-growing herbivore that can fight well against smalls but struggles to survive larger predators unless in a pack, look no further than pachy

Literally no one plays it anymore

[olive wraith]

It's terrible... it can easily be caught by Carno and killed irregardless of pack or not

Teno is not the same

[dusky surge]

Or you end up with groups of carnos and ceras actually trying to kill them

We still have deino as a way for group moderation because nothing in the game can kill it consistently. If you're facing off against a herd, you should come in with an equal or greater pack size

[golden coral]

And if you don't, no one plays teno in the first place :p

I'd rather have tenos around, they could even get into herd fights, after all, herbis do need to compete too

[keen plover]

The issue with herbis is pretty much down to:

• worse juvi stages than their carnivore counterparts

• need to move more to get diets

• bugged diet plants

• diets deplete quickly so they’re forced to head to the corner of the map to fill up on their preferred diets.

• diets don’t overflow so sometimes you can be at 100% hunger and have only 2 diet slots activated.

• they’re slower than their carnivore counterparts, so they’re forced to fight while also being balanced worse this update.

[dusky surge]

^

Diets also are just SO hard to get up

Because for some reason, carnis get organs, herbis get zero equivilant and have to cope

[keen plover]

It’s pretty much do all this work to die to a cerato pack right now

[olive wraith]

No... you would naturally have greater numbers of tenos in herds which carnivores wouldn't want to touch. I remember the good old days of being hunted by 4 tenos as a Carno... seeing them bored to death and all I could do is run away.

[keen plover]

Teno, pachy & Stego are all forced to face off against cerato

[dusky surge]

I remember being hunted by 4 tenonto with 2 carno, and I killed them because I was the more skilled player

I lost my carnivore friend but otherwise, we won

[golden coral]

Also, if the herbis group up, so do the carnis

[keen plover]

Yeah nothing stops carnivore grouping

[golden coral]

Which means if a carni can take on a solo or even two herbis on its own, the group of carnis will just kill the group of herbis

Unless the numbers are massively different, or the mechanics scale very differently

[dusky surge]

I recall herbivores and teno actually being fun when I felt powerful and able to survive my threats, because it meant that there would be a time where I met my match by a smarter carnivore, and those fights would be WONDERFULLY engaging

[golden coral]

But in general, if you go "teno group up" then the response from carnos and ceras are "we'll also group up" and slaughter the entire teno herd

[olive wraith]

You would need a system to enforces groups through buffs and debuffs.

[keen plover]

A good Carno trio will wipe out a teno herd that’s filled with average players.

[dusky surge]

exactly

[dusky surge]

God no

[golden coral]

Then you could just as well limit the more powerful herbis to smaller groups, like the carnis

And there you go

[dusky surge]

It's like you're finding every way to make herbivores unimaginably unfun to play

[golden coral]

No sense in making herbis weaker and force them to group up

[olive wraith]

So u like overpacking?

[dusky surge]

Where did this come from

[keen plover]

I don’t think that’s the alternative

[olive wraith]

What is exactly?

[keen plover]

I hate the premise of debuffs and buffs since they will always be abused

[dusky surge]

Self-sufficient herbivores god forbid

Like why is this such a crime

[golden coral]

No matter how you handle the group, the fundamental is still terrible

A unviable playable solo won't be played much, we know this from legacy

[dusky surge]

Carnivores can run from their threats or fight them off, give herbis the same love

They don't need groups to do so

[golden coral]

So the entire "just herd up" sentiment is terrible for balance and for fun gameplay

[olive wraith]

I have evolution on my side.

[keen plover]

We know this from evrima as well

[dusky surge]

A large herd of tenonto can still have members picked off by competent raptors or troodons, for instance

[keen plover]

It’s a game. Humans are playing it

They will play what’s viable

[olive wraith]

No? Really?

[dusky surge]

evolution literally has most herbivores capable of surviving most of their carnivorous counterparts

[keen plover]

So what even is that take

[dusky surge]

be it via fleeing or absolutely kicking ass

have you seen a moose? A moose is literally a walking herbivore killing machine, nothing messes with a moose

[olive wraith]

Numbers = viable survival strategy

[dusky surge]

For all species

Herbivore and carnivore alike

[olive wraith]

Not ture

[keen plover]

?

[olive wraith]

True*

[golden coral]

I'm not sure what that argument is supposed to mean :p

[dusky surge]

Herbivores evolved to be prey, apparently

Self-defence is a non-possibility

Unless they had colossal groups

[golden coral]

Yes, but only because solo is viable in the first place

[dusky surge]

Solo herbivores are real, you know that right

[golden coral]

Otherwise you... wouldn't get a group going at all

[dusky surge]

Lone zebras can exist and can survive

[olive wraith]

Yes.. that should be reserved for trike and other apexes... not mid tiers.

[golden coral]

Also far as I know, zebras dont help each other in a fight, the numbers are to reduce the risk that you get targeted?

[dusky surge]

LMAO

[golden coral]

It should be applied to the herbi or carni that it fits with, not a "tier"

[dusky surge]

Imagine a MASSIVE roster and you literally can't live without picking a group

No one will EVER play the mid-tiers, only playing trike

If anything, you've ensured that there's overpacks of trikes and nothing else

Now nothing will ever kill herbis

Because everyone wants to play the self-sufficient animal that works good in groups and as a solo, which is trike

[golden coral]

People want stego to herd up vs rex

Not sure how well that'll go xD

[keen plover]

I'm confused. What's wrong with just making herbis strong by themselves. Capable of defending / running away 1 v 1

[olive wraith]

Why are you guys against the idea of herd animals NEEDING the herd to be viable?

[dusky surge]

Which is ridiculous

[dusky surge]

Because then no one will play them and they will die out entirely

[keen plover]

Because they don't get played

[dusky surge]

And I like herbivores in my dinosaur game

[olive wraith]

How do you know?

[keen plover]

I play the game.

Meta picks are the most played

[olive wraith]

Which game is that?

[golden coral]

Because there's no such thing as a "herd animal" or "pack animal" in the game, every playable can herd/pack up, there is nothing that prevents any of them from doing so.

[olive wraith]

Kill me

[golden coral]

And because, as explained, it's terrible balance and design to require another player to be viable

[keen plover]

Maybe you don't play the game, but Cerato & Deino are the most common dinos in the game

[golden coral]

Most people will not choose that, because why choose the one where you need to find another player to have a chance to survive, when you can choose a playable that does not require it

Are you aware of how things went in legacy after para got nerfed?

[dusky surge]

Imagine this, you join a game and are given two options

A: A powerful carnivore capable of facing off against many creatures, and escaping anything that may pose a risk. It can also pack up to increase its power and fight larger foes
B: A measly herbivore that MUST require groups to survive its predators, without a herd, it's fresh meat. However, it grows quickly.

Immediately try and tell me which one is more appealing to the average player

[olive wraith]

I've got 1200hours of this terrible game... I think I can be considered more than a newbie.

[golden coral]

We've seen it happen, simple as that

[dusky surge]

I have 1200 hours of this game as well, and I completely disagree with you lol

[keen plover]

Then you'd be able to tell why certain creatures are played more than the others

[golden coral]

I have 6K, do you really want to make that your argument?

Because if so, I outrank you

[dusky surge]

Winner lol

[olive wraith]

I've noticed a slightly worse Dino (teno) has a long grow time compared to a slightly better Dino (Carno).

[dusky surge]

Just make teno better then

Like really why is this hard

[olive wraith]

What argument is that... you have 6k... so I'm not a no lifer with 1.2k?

[dusky surge]

LMAO

Dude you serious

[golden coral]

That your hours somehow are the measure for your arguments

[olive wraith]

Are they?

[keen plover]

That's only a bit of why a playable is picked...

[golden coral]

If you want to say that your 1.2K hours makes you "not a newbie", and thus you do know things, then my hours would make me the wisest person around and I most certainly know my things

[dusky surge]

Like can we just... make teno stronger

[golden coral]

No, no they're not

[dusky surge]

This solves the problem better than literally anything else lol