balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

the idea would be that omni would half its stamdrain and stam damage taken, so it'd still drain, but slowly (also it'd be doing no damage if all it was doing was hanging on)

[golden coral]

Ah okay, I might have misunderstood you there a little then. That sounds good! I just wanted to avoid the whole "taxi" thing from old, so you can't just ride along on a target, much as I'm sure some people would think that'd be fun.

[dusky surge]

taxi omni would be doing basically no damage, it'd just be a small pest lol

[hollow canyon]

it still drains stamina so idk about it being just a small pest

[dusky surge]

yea, fair, but if the buck damage is merely halfed, it'd still be only like, 4 bucks till its off

[hollow canyon]

yea fair

I'm just saying that Omni being latched on impacts the animal quite hard even without the bleed and damage

[dusky surge]

the point is more about the fact it can hang on for longer and force more bucks to drain more stam

feeding into a more stam-focused playstyle

which seems to be the idea with the recent changes

[thin mantle]

Exactly..(late response cuz I’ve been working all day lol)

[fresh laurel]

Then we should probably adjust omni or its tree sliding thing so they have more reason to rely on forests and even more so due to new buck 🤷‍♂️

what if when deino lets go of a grabbed victim, the deino suffers some sort of stun for a few seconds
this way you dont feel like your game automatically ended the moment you got grabbed and make deino players have to put more thought into their lunges based on stamina so that way they wont just lunge, let go when you are far from land and just bite ya to death

[hollow canyon]

Omni doesn't need to be adjusted as much as Carno's ginormous hitbox that goes from Seattle to Miami needs to be put more in line with what we actually see in the game. The telekinetic charge is something that would fit a goddamn strain perhaps, not a normal dinosaur.

[fresh laurel]

My point was that if omni entire competition like wavepoll said has some goofy buff, may wanna do something

[hollow canyon]

Omni's entire competition doesn't "have some goofy buff"

it's bucking specifically that got buffed

• Pachy's bleed resistance

because Omni was completely broken and overpowered since U5 went live

[fresh laurel]

so what is he on about

[hollow canyon]

Idk where you're getting that from but that's just wrong

[fresh laurel]

as I said, from replying to wavepool

[hollow canyon]

He's wrong, Carno got some readjustments that made its charge better(outright too good rn due to the charge having an absurdly large hitbox) and its ability to run after things worse(this thing barely turns while running now).

Pachy got a clear buff because it was utter hot garbage in U5. Tenonto is untouched, Stego is untouched, Deino is buffed slightly but it doesn't matter to Utah.

Dryo is changed too but hardly anyone plays it

it's actually much easier to hunt it as a Utah now

[fresh laurel]

cool

[mighty tree]

@neon locust that stegosaurus was a exploiter

he was speed hacking

he likely also had damage hacks alongside it

[uncut stream]

just now i had a carno damaging me and knocking me down even though his body didn't even touch mine. the hitboxes are completely broken right now. i was an omni. how tf does a carno out-maneuver a raptor

[pseudo spruce]

Think Omni just needs more maneuverability

Carni is also just genuinely broken rn, will not be staying the same

I enjoyed update 3/4s omni speed and turning radius, allowed you to taunt carnos if you wanted to but it was still a fair fight if you had maybe 3-4 utahs v 1 carnos

Tbh most of the omnis weakness rn comes down to other game mechanics being unpolished or broken, ie the weird stamina drain on bucking, if they just made it drain smoothly at a high rate of speed most average players would actually have a chance of reacting to it but instead it is gone in 2 massive chunks. IMO I would also like the stamina degen to be reduced for the bucking by maybe half along with the smooth stamina decay which I think is a necessity no matter what were talking about as you need to have a good chance to actually react to it, I find the baiting bucks to be a boring playstyle and repetitive would be much more fun to have to react to it instead of just pouncing on and off instantly over and over again

[hallow quiver]

Guys just wait for 7 months then we'll have Carno nerfed to the ground, omni OP af and Tenos receiving changes that no one asked

[silent ruin]

Yup that's exactly what's gonna happen

[dusky surge]

y'all have time machines or something

[silent ruin]

Nah just the incredible ability to look into the past and see that's what we have received time and time again

[keen plover]

Thoughts on teno wading better? In deeper waters, where it can walk.

[azure crescent]

Me like

[hasty coyote]

@sick bramble its an interesting idea on paper, and i like the icons, but I'm not sure if its worth the effort. Doing this would make every dino with a ramp up require this mechanic, which would be a lot of work. Then I also don't see much of a benefit, since you generally are looking at your target rather than the bottom right of your screen. And with at least these mechanics in particular, they barely have a ramp up and you NEED to be facing your target to hit them. Thus, I don't think this mechanic would have much of a use, since its 10x better to just rely on muscle memory rather than taking your eyes off the target.

[sick bramble]

Thats very true. I just want the charge up time for the rams to be a bit longer and maybe having something charge up first can help you know when you can charge/stun someone. But yea youre right, it was just a little idea for people who dont know when they can charge or stun and help the problem with not having to charge up at all to stun something.

[hasty coyote]

its still a neat idea and could be used for other mechanics, I just don't think it works will with pachy or carno in particular at least. Since pachy can have a charged ram in under a second, and carno only needs 3 steps to charge. It could work well with an ambush mechanic or a charged attack that takes longer than like a second.

[sick bramble]

yea thats why i want the charge to activate later not that fast. Its too fast atm..

[hasty coyote]

eh, they both should have it fast. Both need to be able to fight small and agile prey, so having a fast charge up allows them to actually hit them. though carno's ram is a bit overtuned.

[sick bramble]

yea they should shorten the carno ram charge up at least.

[dawn falcon]

Neat idea. Still don’t like ambusher Carno, but QoL additions like that would be great.

[golden coral]

@neat caveIn theory, yes. In practice, why though? It had damage back then, and while we could attempt that again, it'd have to be massively nerfed compared to then. So not sure it would be much better or easier honestly, especially not vs the bigger targets omni packs are intended to hunt.

[elder steppe]

@neat cave That would work for the older movement system from legacy, but omni has a better advantage of hit and run tactics with bleed, now that the movement system has attacks on the side and behind the dinosaur. I think omni being damage based now, would make it very hard for omni to kill anything. The omni being able to play the long game with bleed is what allows it to reliably take down things like stego or carno (as long as there isn't five carnos). Hell even deino, if the deino was dumb and didn't go back to ze water.

for example, i was a baby raptor and almost took out a sub adult carno in a group of 4 because i just kept applying bleed then running away. (ended up dying though because my crazy brain decided to do that in an open field.)

[undone slate]

what is it suppose to be then

[dawn falcon]

Pursuit predator

[dusky surge]

@coral wind thats already a thing

[neat cave]

@golden coral @elder steppe i was thinking about it and it makes sense what u guys saying, the actual problem is the current carno being able to charge extremly fast and the big hitbox. I was just thinking that if the utahs do damage instead of bleed that it would be scarier cause u see your health going down during the battle instead of just the blood that u can heal later.

[slim dragon]

You can also regain your health later tho

[neat cave]

ye but it goes down faster than the bleed

[slim dragon]

It depends on the damage of the attack...

Being a bleeder allows omni to be able to punch up to something the size of a stego without being straight-out oppressive to thing that are only marginally larger than itself, like teno

Back when omni dealt raw damage with its pounce it could shred tenos with ease

[neat cave]

ye and i wanted the attack to be stronger than the current bleed but ye the bleed is fine

[slim dragon]

If it was, omni would shred tenos and carnos in seconds

[neat cave]

i was thinking about 400n per second, which would be 125 damage per second. That wouldnt shred em

[stark knoll]

That would take 4 seconds to kill a teno

[slim dragon]

400n per second would be 400 damage per second

[neat cave]

no

[stark knoll]

Yes, it would

[slim dragon]

elaborate

[neat cave]

400*450kg/1800kg=125

[stark knoll]

Weight does not impact damage in evrima

[slim dragon]

Not how damage works in evrima

[neat cave]

hmm

my life is a lie

whats the current damage of carno ?

[stark knoll]

175 on a normal bite

[neat cave]

how much more when u do a head bite ?

[slim dragon]

Head bites deal 50% more damage

[stark knoll]

Depends on the species, most animals have a 1.5x multiplier on the head

[slim dragon]

Except on stego, who takes 2x damage, and pachy who takes reduced damage

I think deino doesn't take bonus damage on its head either but I'm not certain

[stark knoll]

I think deino has a normal (1.5x) multiplier

[neat cave]

oke

[mellow zenith]

pretty sure every playable has 1.5x headshot dmg multiplier except stego with 2.0x

[slim dragon]

No, pachy definitely has a negative multiplier on its head

[mellow zenith]

oh my bad, i forgot pachy sorry

[neon willow]

Yeah pachy has a 0.75 multiplayer on its head, right?

[elder steppe]

Thats exactly what im saying. The hitbox is pretty bad right now for carno ram

[thin mantle]

.5, it takes half damage

Having a hammer for a face helps sometimes

[hasty coyote]

Let’s just say it did 125 per second, that would mean Omni would kill a pachy in 4 seconds. Compared to pachy which has to hit the Omni 2-4 times. So that makes the matchup heavily Omni favored.

Now if we fight carno, it would take about 14.4 seconds of pouncing to kill it. Which is much more time than we currently need, since it takes (based roughly on last patch) about 5-6 bucked pounces to kill a carno. With that change it would take about 14 pounces.

This shows that swapping Omni to damage would do the inverse of what you want.

[neat cave]

i was only talking about carno vs utah and 125 was just a random number, u guys can stop discussing with me about that.

dont need another 5people talking about that point where ive already accepted taht its not valid

[hasty coyote]

Sorry then, didn’t realize this point was done and dead lol

[neat cave]

np

[dusky surge]

no, it's 0.75, not 0.5

[thin mantle]

Has it always been that way?

I don’t remember it being that low always

[dusky surge]

it's always been a 0.75 multiplier

[neon locust]

ngl, I hope he was considering that dmg 💀

[mellow zenith]

@vale harness OMG ITS DISGUSTING

the almost instant charge, the hitbox of it and the knockdown on a tail hit. Everything was wrong in this clip

[ionic bloom]

@regal goblet A Pachy breaking its back would make sense yes. But I can also see why it wouldn't if it had a reinforced spine of sorts OR if it was designed to take such impacts to the head... which it is. I do agree it shouldn't win in the direct confrontation with a carno but I do think the carno should receive head damage for it.

[regal goblet]

I never said carno shouldn't receive head dmg, if it gets hit in the head ofc it should get head dmg, I'm just saying it was a nice little addition to make it if the pachy and carno met face to face dmg would be done on both sides instead of a huge speeding predator magically stopped by a headbutt and the headbutter gets no consequences even when both are hitting with such force

[ionic bloom]

You misunderstand, I was mostly agree with you.

[regal goblet]

Ah all g

[hasty coyote]

I’m pretty sure it’s just bugged atm since it wasn’t in the patch notes

[regal goblet]

🤷‍♀️ they have added things in the past without mentioning in the dev blog, usually very small things though, so this might just be a bug

[keen plover]

@loud rune If deinos didn't have fast water drains, then nothing except the pressure of stegos would stop them on land. Which would still likely be countered by large amounts of deinos that we see on servers

Land croc back in update 3 was an unfun time

[tall bronze]

I understand why it should have fast water drain, but I have to agree right now it's a bit much. Perhaps it'll improve though with Gateway having actually good map flow + weather like rain assisting.

[keen plover]

A 5 minute water time is fine for deino on Spiro. What other reason does it need to be on land for that long?

All the waterways are either connected, or have at most a couple of seconds of traversing between rivers

On Gateway with weather, I guess it could change? Since we don't know the river layout. However everything about Deino is too easy right now.

[dusky surge]

5 minutes is REALLY short wtf

[tall bronze]

I can literally watch it drain which is a bit silly 😛

If it had crinkling drying up SFX, it'd be okay

[keen plover]

Yeah, it's fine on Spiro

My bad, it's 10 minutes *

Deino loses 0.16-0.17 a second, not 0.33

So it's not 5 minutes, but 10

[dusky surge]

its 15

[keen plover]

every minute, 10% of the water drained on my deino

[dawn falcon]

Isn’t Ava QA lmao

[dusky surge]

what?

[keen plover]

?

[dawn falcon]

Idk. Always assumed QA members knew a majority about the numbers

Oh that’s wavepoole

[fresh laurel]

is it just me or pachy hitbox seems off on ram?

well more like the distance seems goofy to me

[thin mantle]

@quick plinth
1: The fact that PTs hp is ever a factor in discussing their juvi matchups for you is bizarre to me.
You can fly, juvi carnos can’t even damage you and nothing with a jump can exceed the depth of your bite hitbox anyway…you physically can’t “lose” that “fight” they only have a chance of escaping…which leads me to believe you’re landing to attack the children, which literally sacrifices all your animals advantages.
2: Ptera can fly, don’t land unless your target is dead, don’t land if you can’t kill the target…
3: Ptera is not a combatively competent dino and isn’t intended to be one, it’s a spectator camera with survival elements, its functionally immortal unless you place yourself in fatal circumstance. Wait for Quetz if you want a somewhat combatively capable bird to play with because ptera ain’t it

It’s a very low investment animal with the complete incapability of death unless you take drastic action to kill yourself…the trade off being it’s low relevance in the meta, this is basic balancing

[quick plinth]

brother quetz will take years to release

again pt can fight well enough on land so it can be able to fend off juvis but instead they can stun one and kill it in under 3 seconds

[thin mantle]

Ok and? That’s no justification to make Ptera a Quetz niche filler just because it’ll take ages to add…that’s like balancing Carno around rexes niche because rex won’t be in the game for ages…

Also no pteras are supposed to be basically helpless on the ground….that’s the entire point of flight, where does this idea that ptera is supposed to be physically capable while grounded come from?

[fresh laurel]

just died due to pounce bug, wooohooo

legit pounced and stop on enemy collision box aka rip

[quick plinth]

bro most pterosaurs where capable on the ground im jsut saying that a juvi can win against it is dumb

[dusky surge]

its a juvi CARNOTAURUS vs a pteranodon

[slim dragon]

A carno juvi

[dusky surge]

what the hell are you expecting from that engagement

[slim dragon]

How heavy is a freshspawn carno btw ?

[dusky surge]

reminder that irl, a carnotaurus easily dwarfed a pteranodon (an animal with a piscivore diet)

the concept that these two animals would duke it out is frankly absurd lol

[quick plinth]

my brother it was a third of my size

and knocked me over

[slim dragon]

Ptera is a paper plane

[somber sphinx]

I’ll check if you give me a min

[slim dragon]

It's visually larger than a human but weighs about half as much

[thin mantle]

Hehe….not sure how that’s even remotely an argument in favor of it wrestling juvis heavier than it to the ground

[thin mantle]

Size for pterosaurs doesn’t communicate well visually….they’re made of needles and tissue paper

[quick plinth]

they shouldnt be thats the thing

[thin mantle]

Why

They objectively are

The primary reason they reached the sizes they did whilst retaining the ability to fly was because of how physically pathetic they were

Regardless...balance takes precedent...you can't give the immortal flier with uncontested engagement authority the combative power and HP to kill any juvi on the ground consistently...that's insane

[slim dragon]

Unless it's a dryo/hypsi/utah juvie...

[thin mantle]

Well yeah then you just one tap it

[slim dragon]

I mean omni

[thin mantle]

But again....in flight primarily

Like an omni juvi can kill an adult ptera on the ground because of how it's ability works

pachy and carno body ground pteras for obvious reasons

[slim dragon]

Well considering how high ptera's damage is compared to its weight, it's almost either one-shot or don't fight

[somber sphinx]

Alright a juvi carno is around 55.68 kg while PT is around 45 kg
There ya have it

[thin mantle]

I still can't believe ptera used to do 50 damage

[slim dragon]

Thanks, that's all I needed to know

[slim dragon]

And carno once did 300

[thin mantle]

Mhm...tho that's more acceptable...but a ptera exceeding it's own HP in damage is hilarious

[slim dragon]

Well back then ptera did have a lot more hp as well

[thin mantle]

Tbf at the time it weighed 60

[thin mantle]

mhm

Still onetapped on headshots

[quick plinth]

bro at that size pts needed to be strong to fly

[thin mantle]

Yes….your point?

[quick plinth]

all im saying is they should be able to be knocked with how they are built by a juvie

[thin mantle]

Their build makes them significantly more prone to knockdowns than most animals ironically…especially against an animal larger than they are…fresh spawn carnos outweigh pteras

[quick plinth]

bro they have super strong chest and legs for their size

[thin mantle]

I don’t understand how that’s even remotely relevant

Your argument rests on logistics alone…the logistics favor the current engagement

[quick plinth]

it could easly withsand beiung knocked over by a small juvie

[slim dragon]

A small juvie heavier than itself

At a very high speed

[quick plinth]

muscles still strong enough

[thin mantle]

No it couldn’t, that juvi is larger than it and ptera is not physically durable….by comparison

[quick plinth]

itwas point blank

[slim dragon]

At that point there isn't a matter of muscle

[quick plinth]

do you know how muscle works my man

[slim dragon]

That's a problem with the current charge and how it works, not with the matchup or weight comparison in general

[thin mantle]

Yes and a badger is a surprisingly durable animal for its size…doesn’t mean it’s stopping a rhino from plowing through it

[azure crescent]

Yes, but a ptera is built like paper

[slim dragon]

Yes, and I know no amount of muscle can break the laws of physics

If something heavier than you collides with you at a very high speed, unless you're nailed to the ground, you go flying

[thin mantle]

I don’t understand the conflation with ptera being impressively strong enough to support powered flight with it being physically strong enough to overpower an animal larger than itself

[azure crescent]

Flamingoes get tossed around by monkeys which are only slightly heavier than them, just because of how fragile they are

[azure crescent]

Much like a ptera

[quick plinth]

its heavy not larger

[azure crescent]

The strength needed to fly and the strength needed to overpower something are way different

[azure crescent]

Size = mass = weight

[quick plinth]

with how its muscle is spread it could withsand the impact

[quick plinth]

no mate weight = mass

[azure crescent]

No it couldn’t lmao

[thin mantle]

That makes it make even more sense XD
So much weight condensed in a smaller surface area/volume equates to more power

[azure crescent]

Yes, and if weight = mass, and mass = size, then weight = size

[quick plinth]

yeah but its not fast enough to produce enough foirce

[quick plinth]

mass doent equal size

[azure crescent]

Then why is an elephant considered bigger than a giraffe even though it’s significantly shorter?

[thin mantle]

Are you joking…a juvi Carno isn’t fast enough to produce the necessary force…
A juvi Carno wouldn’t even need to be sprinting to generate enough force to wrestle a PT to the ground let alone in a full charge

[azure crescent]

Or why is the blue whale considered the biggest animal ever when there are sauropods both taller and longer than it?

[quick plinth]

then by that logic pt should be bigger casue its size is more then a juvie carno

[slim dragon]

Tapeworms can be bigger than a blue whale :P

[thin mantle]

Tapeworms are now the largest animals on earth ig

[azure crescent]

No, because it’s significantly lighter than a juvie carno

[thin mantle]

No it’s objectively not, juvi carnos from spawn are heavier

[azure crescent]

Well Not significantly but still

[quick plinth]

then size doesnt equall mass

[slim dragon]

Always have been

[azure crescent]

How??? The juvie carno is bigger because it weighs more

[thin mantle]

It being 10-15 kilos heavier than a 45 kilo animal is absolutely significant

[azure crescent]

That’s fair

[quick plinth]

yeah its still smaller in size

[azure crescent]

Dude, size is most accurately measured by weight

[quick plinth]

not it isnt bro

[azure crescent]

A heavier animal has more volume, and occupies more space, therefore it is larger

[thin mantle]

You’re arguing with the dictionary on this one

[quick plinth]

are you aware of density

[azure crescent]

Density which ptera does not have at all?

[thin mantle]

Yes….it’s quite literally what we’ve been referencing this entire time…juvi carnos are denser than PTs

Which is why they weigh more

[quick plinth]

im jsut saying the way a pt is built should be able to withsant a fresh carno at the low speeds it can run

[slim dragon]

"low" speeds ?

[azure crescent]

Dude if you run max speed into an ostrich it will fall over, even if it was bigger than you

[quick plinth]

bro i know im saying size doesnt = mass

[thin mantle]

A fresh spawn Carno wouldn’t even need to be moving to send a ptera on its ass

[quick plinth]

no it wont bro

[azure crescent]

(even though it objectively does)

[azure crescent]

It will, how do you think goats can make cattle fall over?

[quick plinth]

anky vs allo

[azure crescent]

Just run into them max speed and don’t get injured in the impact

[quick plinth]

becasue the way cows support weight

[slim dragon]

This is turning into a "common sense is wrong, I'm right" argument

[thin mantle]

Anky is far larger than an allo…what’s your point

[quick plinth]

bro you both have diffrent points im tlaking to him

[thin mantle]

It’s not even an argument, 6 is arguing with Merriam Webster not us

[azure crescent]

Back to the argument, the strength needed for flight is different than the strength needed to overpower something

[azure crescent]

What

[quick plinth]

the dude said he could knock over a ostritch

[slim dragon]

yes

[thin mantle]

Yes

[quick plinth]

it doesnt ened to over power it jsut needs to withstand

[azure crescent]

What does this mean lmao

[thin mantle]

||im saying they’re disagreeing with the definitions of words||

[azure crescent]

Ptera is paper with legs and a beak

[azure crescent]

Ah

[quick plinth]

which it shouldnt be or it shiuld be abble to fly

[thin mantle]

Lemme ask you a question, could a flamingo tank a charging goat because it’s strong enough to support powered flight?

[quick plinth]

no becasue of they way they are built

[thin mantle]

Exactly….the same applies to ptera

[quick plinth]

no pts are built very diffrent to a flamingo

[azure crescent]

They’re both built for powered flight

Both are fragile

[thin mantle]

What is the meaningful distinction that allows them to brute force tank charges from animals larger than themselves

Like this so such a self evident truth that I’m baffled this is still a Topic

[quick plinth]

because the speed the carno traveld at shouldnt be able to knock a pt with how a pt is built

[azure crescent]

But…how?

[dusky surge]

this entire argument is beyond bizarre

[thin mantle]

Ok sure
I’m done

[slim dragon]

Guys
Setting aside the realism argument, there is 0 reason to make ptera the one exception in-game by resisting knockdowns from larger animals
If anything such an ability should go to something that is actually bulky, like a ceratopsian or ankylosaur

[azure crescent]

Yee

[thin mantle]

Exactly….

[azure crescent]

Or something low to the ground like a megalania

[quick plinth]

bro it moved a t like 30 kph

[dusky surge]

nah dude, let the already extremely strong bird win even more engagements it shouldn't

[azure crescent]

Juvie charge is more than that iirc

[dusky surge]

ptera in S-Tier simply isn't good enough

[azure crescent]

By quite a bit

[quick plinth]

bro it was 3 metres away form em when it statred

[thin mantle]

The fact that a juvi Carno wouldn’t even need the force of a charge to send a ptera into the ground makes this so ironic

[thin mantle]

It’s not immortal enough, make it combatively relevant again

[azure crescent]

We need a new tier for it, clearly the flying animal needs to survive land fights too

[slim dragon]

Put it in SS-tier (||Insert bad historical joke||)

[dusky surge]

god i just love a one sided, boring fight with a bird 7 sizes beneath me

[quick plinth]

bro im jsut saying it should withstand a fresh carno chargbe what are you guys on a bout

[thin mantle]

I love watching 3 hours of progression get “skillfully” pecked away right before my eyes

[azure crescent]

I LOVE HAVING NO COUNTERPLAY !!!

[thin mantle]

Yes and you’re wrong

[slim dragon]

We're trying to introduce you to common sense

[azure crescent]

If you, as the flying animal, die on land to a juvie carno, you deserve to die

[thin mantle]

I don’t think you’ve presented any actual arguments that support your position, you’ve just said it should be able to

[quick plinth]

its almsot the same weight with almost no run up and can fling me a metre to the ground

[thin mantle]

Yes because it’s build is better than yours for absorbing and delivering impacts on top of its density on top of it still being larger than you

[azure crescent]

Also yeah isle carno is specifically built for knocking things smaller than it down

Like a ptera

[quick plinth]

its juvie its not fully develops thats the point it should be able to kock a pt which is quite stable on teh ground

[thin mantle]

[quick plinth]

and only like 10 kg below it

[thin mantle]

Which is a 4th your weight….that’s massive

[quick plinth]

even so the pt shouldnt even be that light

[thin mantle]

Why

[azure crescent]

Ptera was that light irl

[slim dragon]

It's heavier than irl

[azure crescent]

If not lighter yeah

Pterosaurs were stupidly thin

And light

[quick plinth]

still they had insane chest muscles so it was very stable standing on the ground

[slim dragon]

If anything, I think pterosaurs could have a damage reduction or fracture resistance, since their bone structure made them extremely sturdy
But knockdown resistance makes 0 sense for them

[azure crescent]

Yeah you’re stable when standing but when something rams into you as fast as 40 km/h you won’t be very stable

[quick plinth]

thats whaty im saying it wasnt moving that fast

it had 2 metres from stand still running

and snet me flying

[azure crescent]

40 km/h is really fast for something bigger than you

[thin mantle]

It doesn’t need to

[azure crescent]

That’s not possible

[quick plinth]

ive seen diffrenetly

[azure crescent]

Like it is literally not possible for a carno to charge after 2 meters

2 meters is like 1 second of trotting as juvie carno

Maybe 2 seconds at most

[quick plinth]

dont know what to tell ya

[dusky surge]

i really like the concept of this guy GENUINELY believing the FLYING ANIMAL needs buffs to its tankiness lol

[quick plinth]

it was standing started running and im on the ground

[thin mantle]

Does it matter? Like seriously th at Carno shouldn’t even need to move to knock you over logistically

[thin mantle]

Tap space and you have functionally infinite hp

[azure crescent]

Did you try just

Using your wings

[quick plinth]

yep

it was faster

[azure crescent]

How did a carno even get that close to you in the first place

Footsteps are really easy to hear in this update iirc

[dusky surge]

no

[quick plinth]

i was hunting it bit a f ew times ladned to get the kill and it knocked me a metre away

[dusky surge]

lmao

[azure crescent]

No? Must be me ig

[dusky surge]

you had no need to hunt it

and got bodied for taking the fight

[quick plinth]

i was stavring to death

[dusky surge]

i dont see the issue

[quick plinth]

bro i swear everyone a ninja

[thin mantle]

It’s honestly impressive you managed to starve on PT

[dusky surge]

true lol

[quick plinth]

i afk grew

[thin mantle]

I mean….still

Any body of water provides you with limitless food

[dusky surge]

afk grew a ptera
started starving to death
fought a juvi carno
got killed

this is the tale of skill issue

[thin mantle]

Poetry

[dusky surge]

i cant see how any of this is on the game balance

[keen plover]

Funny thing is, fresh spawn carnos pack on weight quickly. So mid fight, it could get to double a pteras size

[azure crescent]

Oh yeah carno has quite the growth curve

[keen plover]

Yeah, which means even more reason for ptera to not even bother fighting a carno on land. You can do it from the air

I mean, even if you land, you can't even outrun a juvi carno so what's the point?

[quick plinth]

mb i cant magically sense when my dino is starving when afk and stop a carno from beign able to charge me in 2 metres of runway

[dusky surge]

you could've taken off well before it hit you
you could've gone for fish
you could've not AFKed lol

[quick plinth]

mb the pt take off didnt work in time
mb i was in the planes and saw the carno like 40 metres away with water being a minute or so by fast flight
mb my dog wanted to paly

[dusky surge]

okay, let's put it this way

[keen plover]

Then log out

[dusky surge]

you having one bad experience does not mean that ptera needs any form of buff in any combat department

because it absolutely doesnt need that

[quick plinth]

bro if anything the carno needs to have a actual decent speed to start a charge and not like 2 pt body lengths away

[hollow canyon]

not even a skill issue, this is basically a tale saying: "the game works as intended"

[azure crescent]

water being a minute or so by fast flight
you have 10 minutes before your hp gets to 0 from starvation

[quick plinth]

bro i dont mesure the time it takes i see i need food i go get food the carno was closer so i went for carno

[azure crescent]

The carno was closer, but it was a significantly harder to get food source

[quick plinth]

well i didnt think something a third of my size and like a slither of health from my first 2 swoops could insta charge and knock me then 2 shot me

[azure crescent]

except it isn't a third of your size and is bigger AND tankier than you

[quick plinth]

we talked about this size isnt mass its scale

didnt know that something that small is apparently 3 times as dense as me

[azure crescent]

it's denser than you because ptera bones are build like this

when a terrestrial theropod like carno has bones somewhat like this

[quick plinth]

so was quetz and rex

well rex not as hollow

[azure crescent]

rex bones looked like this

[quick plinth]

but still pt should be a bit heavyer since its so big that its chest muscle should be bigger so it can fly better

[quick plinth]

yeah its still hollow jsut not as msuch

[azure crescent]

yeah, just like carno

carno is denser

[quick plinth]

no carno aint got hollow gones

[azure crescent]

dude both are theropods

[quick plinth]

and ones siggnificant ly heavyer

canros weight would be mostlt in their bones so they shouldnt be able to acelerate to charging speed in 2 metres

[azure crescent]

you know what? fine, ASSUMING carno's bones aren't hollow, a juvie carno that weighs 55 kg is denser and heavier than a 45 kg ptera, which means it has a higher volume, and therefore, occupies more space

and if something occupies more space, it's bigger

[quick plinth]

anky is smaller then trex

weighs the same

[quick plinth]

the juvie carno has the surface area of a pts chest and legs

[azure crescent]

right, but a carnotaurus also has things inside it that occupy space, more so than a ptera

a carnotaurus needs REALLY strong muscles on its legs and tail

[quick plinth]

do you know what surface area means

[quick plinth]

thats density not surface area

[azure crescent]

I didn't say it was surface area

It still occupies space

[quick plinth]

eyah like is said didnt know something a third of my size could be 3 times as dense as it looked

[azure crescent]

Well now you know

[slim dragon]

Carno is not 3 times as dense as it looks
It's ptera who is 3x lighter than it looks

[azure crescent]

yeah that

[quick plinth]

well the pt is as tall as human and about the same weight so lookin at a pt from our stand point makes more sense as the rigjht weight to size ratio

[slim dragon]

It's lighter than a human
It's 45 kg

[quick plinth]

eyah but its density to height is closer to a humans

and it should be a bit heavy so it can fly with its wing sizew

[azure crescent]

it's half the weight of a human

[slim dragon]

Now you measure ptera by height ?
If a ptera stood upright like a human it would be much taller
Humans are the same height as horses, ith about the same density, but e do't have the same weight at all

[azure crescent]

and also it's specifically adapted to be lighter, so it can fly

[azure crescent]

if you want to fly, getting heavier is the last thing you want

[quick plinth]

yeah but giant wing and loweight dont work cause muscle is needed and thats weight

[slim dragon]

Stop trying to find ways to measure things in ways that don't make sense
The scientific way of measuring an animal (and arguably the most accurate one) is considering weight=size. And that's how we can tell the blue whale is the largest animal ever and that elephants are bigger than giraffes.

[quick plinth]

anky vs rex size and weight

utah vs quetz size and weight

[azure crescent]

Utah is larger

[slim dragon]

You're stubborn aren't you ?

[azure crescent]

Anky is larger

We already went over why

[quick plinth]

no its not large descirbes size weight describes mass

[azure crescent]

Okay, is an elephant bigger than a giraffe?

[slim dragon]

Remember, tapeworm is the biggest living animal

[quick plinth]

facts

[slim dragon]

It was sarcasm

[azure crescent]

You can answer me it's okay

[quick plinth]

no cause elephabt has more size

[azure crescent]

what

The elephant is smaller because it has more size???

[quick plinth]

wow never wouldve guessed

mb awsnerd it wrong

yes elephant is bigger it has more volume

volume is size weight is mass

so a carno would be more massive then a pt a pt would be bigger then a carno

[azure crescent]

But how, considering a giraffe has more scale?

I thought size was measured by scale?

[quick plinth]

nope size is mesured in volume not height

[slim dragon]

You're just straight-out ignoring everything we're trying to explain to you

[azure crescent]

And something more massive doesn't have more volume?

[quick plinth]

nup something can have less volume and be more massive because of its density

[azure crescent]

And something with higher density doesn't have more volume??

[quick plinth]

like a cubic meter of tungsten is much more massive then a cubic meter of iron

[quick plinth]

density is how much there is in volume

something can have the same volume as a something else but density can be diffrent

[quick plinth]

im legit reading off of websites and fact checking

[slim dragon]

What websites ? google ?

[quick plinth]

what are you saying size isnt volume and mass isnt weight

[slim dragon]

No I'm saying weight is how you measure an animal's size in scientific terms

[quick plinth]

no mate the first 5 links that show up

[quick plinth]

in scientific terms volume is size

[slim dragon]

Re-read what I wrote

[quick plinth]

it applies to animals too its just how mesurments work

[azure crescent]

and weight affects volume, and therefore size too

[quick plinth]

no it doesnt

you can have a bucket of water and a bucket of iron whats more heavy

[azure crescent]

then why the hell would the blue whale be considered the biggest animal to ever exist, when there's sauropods taller and longer than it

[quick plinth]

because its more dense

[slim dragon]

THESE ARE NOT ANIMALS

[quick plinth]

doesnt matter its how its mesured

[azure crescent]

and heavier

[quick plinth]

because its more dense

[slim dragon]

It does
That's why I've always been speecifying that it's how you measure ANIMALS

[quick plinth]

weight =mass = density

[azure crescent]

yes, it's bigger because it's heavier, and it's weight is affected by density

[slim dragon]

I know very dam well what volume is and what mass is
Thing is, "size" isn't a scientific measurement
Therefore when talking about animals, "size" is used to refer to weight

[quick plinth]

not its bigger becasue it has more volume and mor emassive because its heavyer

[slim dragon]

When you're talking about a person, size refers to how tall they are
When talking about a region, it refers to its surface

[quick plinth]

bro its refers to volume

[quick plinth]

no thats height

[slim dragon]

You don't refer to animals in terms of volume, because then it would mean a dry sheep is larger than a wet sheep
But they're the same size

[quick plinth]

bro you think they count hair as size

[slim dragon]

Are you failing to understanding on purpose ?

[slim dragon]

You're the one to say it's volume that matters

Having puffy hair or not, dense bones or not, is the same thing

[azure crescent]

Does hair not count toward volume?

[quick plinth]

you sayin a 6'1 dude 70kg is bigger then a dude 6'0 and 100kg

[azure crescent]

A 6', 100 kg dude is bigger than a 6'1, 70 kg dude

because he's heavier

[quick plinth]

well the the otehr dude says otehr wise

[azure crescent]

no he doesn't lol, he's trying to tell you that weight = size

[quick plinth]

and no hes more massive not bigger bigger is height weight is mass

[slim dragon]

Well I may not be perfectly aware of how english use different measure units
But my other examples are still valid

[quick plinth]

your point implies this (you sayin a 6'1 dude 70kg is bigger then a dude 6'0 and 100kg) because hes taller hes bigger

[slim dragon]

Forget about the people

[quick plinth]

you brought it up

[azure crescent]

he's saying that because when we're measuring people we don't use the term size accurately

[quick plinth]

well he did before

[dusky surge]

this entire discussion is utter absurdity

[slim dragon]

yes

[quick plinth]

then why you here

[azure crescent]

I can't keep doing this

[dusky surge]

because utter absurdity is inherently funny

and watching you justify why ptera needs some random buff that makes no sense is in that same realm

[quick plinth]

i gave up on that they just tryin to deny how mesuring works

[azure crescent]

You tell him

[quick plinth]

you cant talk you dont know basic mesuring terms

[azure crescent]

So true!

[slim dragon]

Says the person who believes "size" is a valid and accurate measurement term

[twilit juniper]

Is this really ''balance feedback discussion''? or just an argument about measurements, please keep it in general chats or dm's 💀

[quick plinth]

no volume is size is related to volume bro

[slim dragon]

Thaks for confirming my point

[quick plinth]

ive said this the whole time

[slim dragon]

I know

[quick plinth]

then what you on about

[azure crescent]

It used to be about a ptera buff, at one point in time

[slim dragon]

Your usage of the word "size" is wrong

Because it's meaning changes depending on what you're measuring

[quick plinth]

what ever i give up but still pt should be heavyer because the muscle needed for flight isnt that light

[slim dragon]

You're arguing against nature here

[quick plinth]

what you saying its weight can support the muscle needed for its wings to flyu

[azure crescent]

you do know that the biggest wingspan of any flying animal today is about the same as a ptera's, and it belongs to a bird that weighs 7 kg

[slim dragon]

It can support 45 kg
Which is how much it weighs

[quick plinth]

because evolustion lighter bones and feathers

[azure crescent]

Ptera also has lighter bones

[slim dragon]

Eveolution isn't a line
It's a cycle
Modern animals aren't better than dinos, nor is it the other way around

[quick plinth]

not as a albatros

[azure crescent]

what

[quick plinth]

evolution is all about making things better for survival

[azure crescent]

Evolution is random

Everything about any animal happened because that at one point there was a random mutation that happened, and it just sticked around

[quick plinth]

no mutations are random and if they are goof for surival they pass on and thats evolution

[slim dragon]

The biggest animal that could possibly ever fly is the quetzalcoatlus, with a 12 meter wingspan for a eight theorized between 200/300 kg
And it's as tall as a giraffe
So your better believe ptera is fine weighing 45 kg

[azure crescent]

For example deer antlers originated from bone cancer

iirc

[quick plinth]

yeah becuase its wing size is good for its weight pts wings in the isle are too big

[slim dragon]

No Isle ptera has the right proportions

[azure crescent]

Isle ptera has the right wingspan

6 meters roughly

[slim dragon]

It's accurate, save for the lack of pycnofibers and the fact it can skim the water

[quick plinth]

yeah but the width of the wings combined with tis weight doenst make sense

[slim dragon]

It does for a flying animal

[azure crescent]

Yeah pterosaurs are pretty extreme when it comes to size and weight

[quick plinth]

not for skin wings

[azure crescent]

They are EXTREMELY light

[slim dragon]

Birds are even more extreme tho

[azure crescent]

Yeah

[quick plinth]

nah birds got feathers they bassically cheating

[slim dragon]

Haast eagle, which has the same wingspan as ptera, is something like 15kg
A third of its weight

[slim dragon]

How so ?

[azure crescent]

what

[slim dragon]

Feathers don't make something lighter

[azure crescent]

You do know feathers don't take away from something's weight right?

[quick plinth]

fethers make the wings easyer to flap

[azure crescent]

They have drag (i think that's the term), much like the skin of a ptera's wing

[quick plinth]

well feathers vs skin have uop and down sides skin is better for altitude since they can move more air feathers are better for low becasue they are faster moving

[azure crescent]

that isn't even true

[twilit juniper]

(i dont wanna get into this convo much or at all cause of the pointlessness, but the highest flying bird in history was a type of vulture, they have feathers )

[azure crescent]

^

feathers originated to help with cold environments, so i don't see why feathers would be worse for altitude

[quick plinth]

skin has more drak the feathers

drag

[azure crescent]

you're treating feathers and skin as if they were perks from a game

[quick plinth]

no im treating them like how they are in real life they are diffrent and better at diffrent things

skin is more agile and can move more air/more drag'

[azure crescent]

well you treated them wrong lol

feathers are better for altitude

[quick plinth]

no they arnt they dont move as much as needed after a certain hegith without being big as hell

[azure crescent]

this literally just isn't true, the highest flying thing ever had feathers

[quick plinth]

yeah it had big ass wings

[azure crescent]

a non feathered flier would freeze in the temperatures at those heights

[azure crescent]

(it had smaller wings than a lot of pterosaurs)

Either way i cannot deal with you ignoring our explanations over and over again so i'm leaving this conversation

[quick plinth]

what the argentavis

[azure crescent]

Yes

[quick plinth]

waht was its max height

[azure crescent]

except the argentavis wasn't the highest flying thing ever

[quick plinth]

then why you say yes

[azure crescent]

that title belongs to vultures

[azure crescent]

because it also had smaller wings than some pterosaurs

[quick plinth]

agrentavis is a vulture

[azure crescent]

it isn't, argentavis is a teratorn

[quick plinth]

its basscially a vulture

[azure crescent]

members of teratornithidae are not vultures, and were possibly active land predators

[azure crescent]

okay but it isn't one lmao

[stoic umbra]

https://gyazo.com/4c6524896c8c83aff85dac3ba38c5f99

[azure crescent]

i don't know what to tell you

[quick plinth]

Ruppell's griffon vulture?

quetz could fly higher then that bro

[azure crescent]

Don't use wikipedia for paleo stuff

[azure crescent]

quetz might've flown longer distances but we don't know how high it flew

[quick plinth]

facts

[azure crescent]

realistically it would begin freezing at those heights

[stoic umbra]

that wasnt even off of wikipedia

[azure crescent]

what was it off of?

[stoic umbra]

theres 3 different things that say its vulture

[quick plinth]

if ict could fly at 130ks at 4.5k altitude it could go very bloody high

[stoic umbra]

heres another https://gyazo.com/c8a00dfe56d41f651cc8266df9f9a77e

[stoic umbra]

and vulture

[quick plinth]

i can say this now a quetz would be able to fly the highest out of any animal with its stats

[azure crescent]

new world vultures are not true vultures

[stoic umbra]

goofy

[azure crescent]

taxonomically speaking

[quick plinth]

brother a vultrue is a vultrue

[stoic umbra]

^

just wanted to add that when you said they arent a vulture at all

when you look it up theres multiple sites that say it is in fact a vulture

so possibly youd need to look into it more before saying it is or isnt something

[azure crescent]

Dog

[quick plinth]

@azure crescent @stoic umbra lets take a sec form the debaiting and talk about somethign we all clearly enjoy

what dino you wanted added most to evirma

[stoic umbra]

dam im hoping you aint aboutta talk about the isle cuz these devs have the current state of the game being so trash id never recommend the game to people until it gets fixed

[quick plinth]

this is wishful talk my man

we talking about what we want added most

[stoic umbra]

i 10000% would find it fun to have more aquatic dinos and have larger bodies of water with more water ai

[quick plinth]

im thinkin hatzegopteryx

cause its like a flying cerato un strength

any stronger and it be op

[azure pebble]

That’s why it’s a bad idea

[quick plinth]

bro what

[azure pebble]

If it is OP then it is very hard to kill and a flier can escape easily so something like hatze would be hard to defend from

Currently you cannot attack up

[quick plinth]

well since its one of the biggest flyers it wouldnt be able to swoop or take off as fast as the pt

[slim dragon]

Why add Hatze when quetz is planned anyway

[quick plinth]

hatze would be stronger quetz would be longer distance quicker like rex vs giga dynamic

[azure pebble]

I mean this could work but idk if the devs will add it because it’s so similar

[azure crescent]

Apologies for saying this late, I had to go work, but by “true vulture” i mean the vultures that are part of the Accipitridae family, and, surprisingly enough, new world “vultures” and condors are not a part of this group, and neither are teratorns like argentavis

@stoic umbra again, sorry for only coming back now

Birds have a lot of convergent evolution when you think about it

Vultures, birds of prey, storks and herons

Here’s what an accurate argentavis probably looked like

https://twitter.com/bstokkermans/status/1598690971369316359?s=46&t=FPqynZb4OgrPbgjWgg9wdQ

Brennan Stokkermans (@BStokkermans)

Argentavis magnificens chases down an almost meter long macroeuphractes

With large robust legs and a skull adapted for gripping, it’s possible teratorns like argentavis were terrestrial pursuit predators, chasing down its prey on foot and swallowing it whole.

Likes

1282

Retweets

241

Twitter · Dec 2, 2022, 2:50 PM

They would’ve hunted on foot too possibly

[dawn falcon]

Do have to agree with Bird Brain

It’s such a ridiculously unneeded mechanic.. my god

[tall bronze]

People talked about Argentavis, my beloved, and didn't let me know!?

[Disappoint]

[keen plover]

Yeah. Healing by itself is a task that requires you to sit down for a decent period of time. Both health and bleed. Add in locked health and it's way longer. It just forces you to sit there. A rather unfun mechanic.

[wraith relic]

It would make more sense if you could still regen health while standing but it wouldn’t be as fast

[keen plover]

You do regen health while standing

You heal with any given action. The rates are just worse than sitting down

[golden coral]

@keen ploverHere's a take for you. Make locked health possibly a bit harsher, remove the ability to recover it passively but add certain things, like wallowing, or salt lick, that will "unlock" it so you can heal from there, maybe even with a boost. The point here is to provide more wounded playables more often for others to hunt, while also forcing said wounded playables to be out and about, thus actually being at risk, as opposed to hide in bush for longer than usual.

[bright oasis]

id be cool with that, but that would make those areas controllable by other big groups of players. like in path of titans, players would camp the homecaves, which are caves players enter to equip abilities. very essential to the gameplay loop, and players used to (and still do) camp these areas to kill fresh spawn and growing players equipping newly bought abilities. the devs had to add anti camping debuffs around the homecaves AND 60 seconds of invincibility coming out of them to gauge whether or not its even safe to leave.

in order for that to not be a total camping mess, id be ok with passive healing still being a thing, although slower than what we have right now. carnivores would have it way too easy hunting and surviving themselves if those areas were required for healing and they were part of a large resource controlling pack.

why bother even trying to survive the harder, intended way when weakened prey comes to the same-ish spots over and over and you dont have to move at all?

[golden coral]

They would. In part the point would be that those are areas you can stake out to hunt the weakened targets. Counter to this would be more spots and more ways to counter the locked health I imagine. You can already stake out water sources or food spawns for herbis if you want. But you do make a good point, and I am aware of PoTs issues with their home caves. Still, the idea of doing something actively to recover health, vs waiting it out isn't bad I don't think, and we could have a way to passively heal, if it also put you at other kinds of risks, such as requiring more food or water more often, so you still have to be out and about and thus at proper risk. Would that work better?

[bright oasis]

im not saying i wouldnt want those to help healing either, that'd be perfectly fine as long as passive healing would still exist. there should be risk vs reward decisions within the game like that, to spice up gameplay as a whole

cut the passive healing by 33-45%, add various heal buff spots all over the map and i'd like it. the spots wouldnt be as camped as there are a lot of them around the entire map, but its still unsafe to go there all the time

[golden coral]

Yeah, I think we're in agreement there. I just want the passive healing to put you at some other kind of risk. While the active healing = go out to specific spots, thus be at risk of being targeted there. Passive healing = just need more food and water, or something, so you still have to work for it, but you can choose where to go and it's more spread out areas, so less risk of someone knowing where you're going.

So you'd trade off extra drain and thus more activity over all, for a specific spot with it's own risks of being watched by something ready to kill you when you show up.

[bright oasis]

exactly, active risk vs reward in the hands of player choice instead of the game choosing it for you

[golden coral]

Sounds good to me!

[keen plover]

I think that's fine. Assuming that they don't remove it (which is very likely), certain creatures should heal it better than others passively. I don't expect a carno to heal locked health better than a teno for example.

[fresh laurel]

we should really fix pachy goofy ah headbutt

[hasty coyote]

how so?

[fresh laurel]

the hitbox seems weird to me

like pachy uses it, like ok yea it should be landing but the hitbox stays even as the animation seems to end

I dunno if im describing it right

like pachy headbutts, it lunges a bit but the hitbox seems to linger?

[hasty coyote]

on the pachy's side or the target's side. I know the new changes made it favor the pachy's side now, so latency can make it look like its missing but it still hits

[hasty coyote]

oh that, not entirely sure honestly, the ram also lasts quite a bit, let me see if I can grab a clip rq

[fresh laurel]

on my side it seems pachy shouldnt have landed a headbutt as the animation seems to end yet it carries the hitbox

like pachy can headbutt a good few meters away from me and it can still land

[hasty coyote]

found this clip, is this what you mean?

like this is the frame before the impact, its a bit of distance but not too unreasonable. If it doesnt affect the accuracy of the hits, then I'm fine with them nerfing the range slightly, but its honestly hardly noticeable most the time since that pachy would have to barely clip you while you are standing still (because latency and such mess up hitboxes)

[ripe quail]

@regal goblet I wanted to say I liked you suggestion. At first glance seems like a horrible idea to cripple a pachy in any way for making a successful charge, but if it has the capability to guarantee broken legs on a carno in 1 hit it would create an interesting case of mutually assured destruction when the two fight. It would disincentivize killer pachys running around seeking to murder larger predators and would possibly encourage pachys to cripple carnos in order to run away rather than render the carno completely defenseless to be rammed to death.

[regal goblet]

Exactly! They aren't run in and fight to the death, they are run in and run out

[fresh laurel]

YES

[fresh laurel]

the thing is for how powerful the move is against things its tier, I kinda would like the point of impact to seem fair in my eyes

the fact pachy can use the move from here and be basically rewarded for it...

goofy

[hasty coyote]

It would only be rewarded from there if the Omni stayed still. If the Omni is predictable enough for the pachy to ram it from that far, then it should be rewarded imo.

However, the ram does need some adjustment, especially since it’s near useless when a hill exists, and pachy is supposed to be living in rocky areas.

[fresh laurel]

You dont really even have to stay still for such an occurrence to happen

pachy can use the ram a bit early and hitbox with how it stays with the lunge lets pachy use it quite earlier

[hasty coyote]

You could also move in a straight line

[fresh laurel]

depends where you are standing

could be attempting to run around at a distance you would except to be fine and bam

rewards pachy too much compared to if the hitbox left earlier

[dusky surge]

honestly, i dont think pachy's hitbox is anywhere near its biggest issue

[fresh laurel]

probably isnt, but still is quite bs when such a moment happens

also wth is a asshole niche

[dusky surge]

(id still much rather its stuns against tenos and carnos be addressed)

[hasty coyote]

Plus, that took almost a full second for the pachy to actually hit the Omni, if you are that predictable you should be punished.

[dusky surge]

ava is an asshole, look at its concept art

[fresh laurel]

one issue being addressed doesnt invalidate its other issues so...

also anyone notice pounce bugged yet?

stopping on the animal collision box sometimes

[hasty coyote]

If you solve too many at once, you may nerf something into the ground or buff it to be stronger than gods.

[fresh laurel]

either the devs tried to remove face pounce and that bugged itself or this is a normal pounce bug

[fresh laurel]

depends on where the animal sits at in that point of time

or update I should say

[dusky surge]

honestly dont think the hitbox is that big an issue tbh

[hasty coyote]

The most I have seen is that an Omni landed right on top of a pachy, and the pounce didn’t land when it probably should have. But they also could have just missed by a millimeter.

[fresh laurel]

it happened to me when I tried pouncing a carno

legit tried going for a pounce, stopped at the cano feet and took the endlag

[hasty coyote]

U4.5 to U5 Omni says otherwise.

[hasty coyote]

I haven’t seen that often, like I have seen only 2 bugged pounces, and both were a bit questionable if it was a bug or barely missed.

[fresh laurel]

I mean eh..? I guess it counts but would be obvious how much better a playable becomes when its mechanic actually becomes functional

[fresh laurel]

def not a bug when my pounce just stops at the target and falls at their collision box
like I was pouncing a tree

[hasty coyote]

Bit of an extreme example, but one nonetheless.

[hasty coyote]

I said that’s what I have seen, idk what you have seen

[fresh laurel]

now with pachy, something that has a working mechanic
addressing the issues wouldnt just make it instant fodder in my eyes since its issues wont exactly change how it cripples instead of damage?

[fresh laurel]

Im just saying it cant be a bug with how consistent it happened to me at times
at least once per fight (mind you I die when it happens)

[hasty coyote]

Probably wouldn’t make it fodder, but still would impact the matchups

[fresh laurel]

we want to nerf its teno and I think carno matchup too
now the utah matchup is where you wanna make sure isnt that bad

now if we adjusted the ram hitbox I wonder how much the matchups would change
I really question the sorta linger it has

[dusky surge]

the best way to deal with the teno/carno matchup with pachy is to adjust staggers

[hasty coyote]

Teno and carno are 100% stun issues. We just need a way to allow pachy to keep the stuns at the start, but not after the target is crippled beyond repair.

And if pachy is supposed to be a hard counter to Omni, then it’s doing it’s job perfectly. If it’s supposed to be a fair fight, then it should be looked at a bit. Probably start with that Omni turn nerf (if it actually happend at all)

[dusky surge]

i still think fracture = stagger and pachy cannot stagger animals 2x its size without a fracture

[fresh laurel]

think that could work

[hasty coyote]

I’m still hesitant on that myself. If it happens and works, then sure. If it makes pachy fodder, you will not hear the end of me until it’s fixed.

[dusky surge]

i dont see how it would

[royal stag]

Question to talk about, why should Carno be able to do max damage with a charge not going full speed?

[fresh laurel]

I still question that damn hitbox man, an attack animation should match the hitbox which pachy near end of headbutt lacks

[dusky surge]

it is going full speed when its charging

you cant charge unless you're already top speed

[royal stag]

No they made it do charge faster

[fresh laurel]

we should however adjust that hitbox

[dusky surge]

hitbox bad

i can forgive pachy hitbox, carno needs major reduction

its not even just OP, it's visibly broken

[fresh laurel]

and carno charge is actually freaking scary against smalls, I think thats a good thing for its small game hunter niche
but man hitbox adjustments so smalls dont get grazzed by a huge LOAD OF BS

that took me way too long to send

🦈

[dusky surge]

i still think carno needs to not be able to knockdown animals greater than 50% its size, have a SLIGHT stam consumption upon initiating charge, and a reduced hitbox

[hasty coyote]

I actually think I figured out why it’s like that.
A: that clip showed probably the worst possible position to hit, right as pachy is decelerating at the end. If it hit any sooner it would look fine.
B: spacing. When you ram a carno, that extended hitbox allows the pachy to have some space between it and the carno so it doesn’t get stuck and can turn easier.

[fresh laurel]

I mean, thats good to know but what I would give for my experience against pachy to not have that issue

[fresh laurel]

seeing as carno can do small charge bursts now and turn better, would be interesting for it cost stam to start the charge

[keen plover]

I think that would be too much of a change for carno in one go imo. A reduced hitbox / reduced knockdown range first to see how it performs and go from there imo.

[hasty coyote]

Honestly it’s such a minor thing I don’t see an issue with it myself. If you get hit from that far away and are in the perfect distance to be 2 feet in front the pachy rather than 2 feet further or closer… I got 1 word for you: zigzag.

[dusky surge]

everything else costs initial stam to use their abilities except hypsi (which costs hunger) and ptera (which isn't really as much an engagement tool as a eating tool), and carno for some reason

[dusky surge]

I'd also be fine with 75% and below knockdown range

Now that it's actually good at hunting small game, it should focus on that. Teno should be a threat again

[fresh laurel]

Telling you man, happens more than you would think from that footage lol
seen it happen a decent amount of times to other utahs who arent playing that dumb so I mean...

[hasty coyote]

Same, if we fix every issue, new ones will arise.

[hasty coyote]

That could also be partially latency.

[dusky surge]

I personally think teno is perfectly balanced, and doesn't need a buff, the issue is that everything else is STOOPID

[keen plover]

I can agree with that. It's just I'm kind of curious to see how carno would perform with a 5% cost. It has a low stamina pool so if the drain is that bad, it might not have the ability to charge more than once to defend itself. Since situations can change quickly.

[fresh laurel]

I kinda doubt it with how consistent it is, so I mean 🦈

[hasty coyote]

I have heard so many carnos and tenos complain about being hit in the tail and getting leg fracture, but the pachy pov looks near perfect.

[hasty coyote]

The only buff I’d give it is to make tail slam have super armor. So the damage still goes off even if it’s stunned.

[dusky surge]

Ehhh, nah

[fresh laurel]

maybe but from my pov its the pachy animation end thats doing the fracture still somehow, like exactly in the footage, just more consistent oofs

[keen plover]

I'd like if teno could wade better personally

[dusky surge]

That would be cool

[keen plover]

That's the only change I'd do

[fresh laurel]

whats wading if I may ask?...

[keen plover]

How well it can move through water

Via trotting as an example

[hasty coyote]

Helps with pachies bullying it and carnos spam charging it.

[keen plover]

It's currently slowed down in shallow waters

I want it to cleave through it personally

[dusky surge]

My stagger change also does that

Also super armour beating carno knockdown?

[hasty coyote]

Maybe, could make it only on stuns if anything.

[fresh laurel]

I wish wading as a whole took less stamina, kinda goofy seeing my stam decay as fun as a sprint

[keen plover]

For creatures like teno, sure. I feel like some creatures having it worse like carno is fine

[fresh laurel]

like utah fr fr

[dawn falcon]

Wade and dive

Teno should have excellent wading and diving capabilities. Half of its diet should also revolve around foraging on river, swamp or lake bottoms

On top of that I’d also HEAVILY buff tenos swimming speed across all growths so it can then contend with beipi, Bary, Sucho, Deino and such

[hollow canyon]

Charge goes at full speed the moment you use it, it doesn't gain any further momentum

You can't use charge unless Carno is already going at full speed, the moment you trigger the charge it starts moving even faster but it doesn't pick up any more speed from that point onward

Carno doesn't need a weird nerf like that it just needs to have a lower charge damage in general

what you're proposing is a half-measure, just nerf that damage completely, it has no business doing that much

[ashen frigate]

#balance-feedback message
They're simply going to be rulebroken

[keen plover]

Charge radius or running turn radius? @sly birch

I'm assuming you meant charge

[sly birch]

yes

[prisma magnet]

@vast sun crocodiles are able to run when holding something irl iirc, and carrying something doesn't stop anything else from running unless it's too big to carry easily. Only removing running from deinos when carrying isn't a very good idea, imo

[mellow zenith]

the prob is the deino's sub adult stage that outperform by a lot some playable

its like the Kaprosuchus in Ark, the thing rushed at you and grab you like nothing

speed and/or stam of the subadult stage need some change

[hasty coyote]

It’s mainly because sub deino has insane land stamina and pretty good speed. So it can lunge people way away from the water and still drag them to it. Removing the ability to sprint while lunging only really affects situations like that since they can otherwise easily just turn back to the water.

[mellow zenith]

Sub deino stam and speed seems a little overtune

[hasty coyote]

Honestly most the juvies have insane speed and stam

[thin mantle]

Sub deinos running down tenos on land….sub carnos running faster than a gale force wind

[mental roost]

https://media.tenor.com/Hqyg8s_gh5QAAAAC/perfectly-balanced-thanos.gif

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/slave-knight-gael-dark-souls3-ringed-city-gif-24181378

[mental roost]

That's not an actual thing now, right? Please god tell me sub deinos can't outrun a teno on land(speed wise)

also Sub carnos back in the day ran at max like 58 km/h...but now it's 68 or something??

[thin mantle]

Briefly but yes

[thin mantle]

64 currently…I think

Maybe 65 but last I checked it caps at 64

[mental roost]

I think 58 was good enough....anything above 60 seems a bit much balance-wise.

Also why. Why can sub deino do that now

[river nexus]

@green onyx

Keep in mind that the reason why our devs make drastic impulsive changes without thinking it through all the way is because they're experimenting for the final outcome.
We are nowhere near a substainable roster, the devs are still considering EVRIMA to be in BETA - and they have a full logical right to purposefully make mistakes as long as they're able to get experience from experimenting

The whole point of early development is to experiment, complaining about these things to this extent would be logical if the game was finished with an actual roster..
Not when the game is in a crystal clear experimentational status.

[subtle berry]

Its true that they have the right to make mistakes, but that doesn't mean that they have to make one to the point where a dino is totally weak against others and make others very, but very strong. Where is the people to test this changes before adding? They made omniraptor complete garbage. Nerfed his agility and buffed bucking so omni wastes even more stamina while is being bucked. Where is the reason to do that? Bucking was already a little bit op and they made it worse. And why make carno´s charge have better turning radius and be able to use it right when you start running? That doesn't make any sense because if you watch videos of U6 of the isle and see fights of carnos, you will see that they just have to spam the charge until the victim dies. Thats not balanced at all and its just stupid, because carno is not supposed to be that way (and Im excluding the fact that his hitbox is very broken because can hit you miles away). 1 adult carno can now kill 4 adult omnis very easily, because only has to waste all their stamina in one buck and then run them down with the ambush and kill them because the omnis will have no stamina to run away. Other one is pachy, why buff pachy at this point where I watched videos of people 1v2 carnos with pachy (in U6), because of the fracture being always random to the point where has already on the first hit? If you want to kill a utah or carno or teno easily with pachy, you only need to leg fracture it or body fracture and let it waste all its stamina because you will easily run down all of them, because now you waste more stamina while fractured. Ffs, how can you say that they have the right to make a big mistake like this? I really dont understand how can you still be on their side after all of this... They dont fix the bugs, dont fix the performance, dont add new dinos for more than 1 year and do this kind of mistakes on the balance. Bro, pls.... think correctly before righting.

[golden coral]

Omni isn't garbage at all. It's still a perfectly fine playable. Bucking was bordeline useless before. And the charge needed improvements so it could be used versus more than just afk targets. Now it can be used in an actual chase, which means carno can actually run things down. Pachy could do the same things to carno and teno last patch as well as this, nothing has changed there. The fracture is not based on RNG. Overall, the changes are a step in the right direction, and far from being a mistake.

Charge hitbox has issues, as does Pachy CC abilities. Charge damage and CC could do with a bit of a look over as well. As for the whole fixing performance, that isn't as easy as you want to make it out to be. And far as I know, they do fix bugs and so on, usually there's a whole list of things fixed in the patch notes. And we are going to get new playables, at least one is planned for the upcoming update.

[hollow canyon]

Performance is significantly better for me on this update, I went from 30fps to a more or less stable 60 fps with U6. The balance changes seem just half-done. Carno's charge changes were good but it needs to have its damage gutted and its hitbox fixed. Bucking is... meh? I'd change how it works altogether, atm probably do what Wave proposed and halve the stamina drain from bucking and pouncing and halve the bleed applied. The fights just go too quickly with Utah.

Double the runtimes of everything, make the stamina expenditure on abilities be percentage-wise so that juvies can't pounce/charge forever.

They went in the right direction but clearly haven't finished

Carno and Pachy both should've never made it out of the stress testing in this state

they're both broken - obviously

but yea they've promised an update before the end of the year and here we are - we got it

yay...

[hollow canyon]

A lot of what has been written here is nonsense btw

Omni's agility was not nerfed, it's nowhere in the patch notes and it feels exactly as it did on U5 to me

Pachy needed a buff really badly

Utah was making burgers out of it on u5

bucking wasn't strong, it was trash

like idk, I can keep going but it would take too long, Utah needed a nerf on U5 - obviously
atm Carno and Pachy both need nerfs - also obviously

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonNot sure why you'd want the pouncing/bucking to be slower? Does that make for better engagement, or more fun? Because to me, the fast paced pounce/buck we have now seems all around much better, makes for more chances to actually fight the omni and thus settle the engagement. Sure you could lower bleed/damage even more, and lower stam drain on bucking, but I feel like that'd just lean into "I have to stand here and buck for so long" instead of "off with the omni, try and kill it so the fight is over", if you get how I mean.

[median crow]

instead of increasing bucking damage they should have nerfed bleed dmg from omnis because people are just mad that they cant react fast enough to their stamina being wasted but nerfing bleed dmg from omnis and instead making them lose not so much stamina from bucking would fix the issue

[hollow canyon]

I think with Utah being a bleeder and an animal that wears down its prey its fights should last longer than they do

[hollow canyon]

would've probably been the right approach but people screeched at anyone even daring to mention that

[golden coral]

Well, the fight lasting longer is not quite the same as the pounce/buck interaction lasting longer. At least not to me. You can still pounce, you just do tap pounces now, and there's more back and forth in the fight, rather than the target "just sitting there". At least in my experience.

[golden coral]

That's more so an issue with the stamina draining in chunks.

[hollow canyon]

Utah's nerf after U5 was the most obvious thing ever, I've been saying that it will need to be nerfed after its pounce gets fixed long before it even happened. It was a really obvious development of events considering how many times they buffed that thing before finally fixing its pounce.

[golden coral]

And I imagine that if they did less bleed but kept the pounce timers, people would complain that "I pounced for 4 seconds, why is this thing not bleeding out already".

[hollow canyon]

True but I think the stamina goes down a bit too fast and the bleed is applied a bit absurdly fast rn in my opinion

[subtle berry]

Omni is a perfectly fine playable? How can you say that. You literally cant use your pounce, because if you do is just suicide. Now pounce is a suicidal sentence, because it only needs 2 seconds for bucking and you are already with no stamina. And if you think of carnos ambush, its not correct to be able to turn that well when you want to knock down something. Think about bull, if you ever watched those videos of people trying to dodge a bull for fun, you will see that a bull when is ready to run and charge its attack to a human, its very easy for the human to dodge it, because the bull is focusing all his strength on one direction to knock down the target. He cant focus all his strength to every direction that changes while running and simply just turn a little (like carno does) and still have all the strenght to knock down the target. And now think a carno that is literally a bus and is bigger and only runs on 2 legs (which makes even more difficult to turn). Even a normal human when is at full speed cant turn a little bit that well.

[median crow]

I told u that they should not make u lose stamina so fast therefore it wont be in big chunks so you can pounce longer but deal less bleed dmg

[hollow canyon]

this might be a shocker but if someone starts bucking - you aren't supposed to remain latched onto them

if you do - you're missplaying really badly

and tbh deserve to die

[golden coral]

You can absolutely still use pounce, tap pouncing is a thing. I can say it because I've played it and did fine. It's by no means suicidal, if you know how to adjust, you'll be fine. Carno do not ambush, that is a terrible playstyle and should not be a thing. It should pursue and run things down, which it can now do. Carno is not a bull, think more lke a cheetah if anything. Carno earlier only hit things with charge that were afk, that was far from ideal. Or in groups where they could distract stuff, but carno isn't really meant to come in numbers.

[golden coral]

I meant more so that if stamina drained like how sprint drains, it'd be a lot easier to react, even with current high drain.

Aside from that, I'm more so in favour of shorter but more dangerous pounces over longer but with much less bleed. Mostly because I feel like the longer you have to stand there and buck, the slower paced the entire engagement gets.

[subtle berry]

Thats why omni has a bigger claw in each leg, so it can pierce the skin and flesh and keep itself attached

[median crow]

ye or like that

[golden coral]

But then, wouldn't that go against the idea of slower buck and less bleed? :p

[hollow canyon]

I rest my case

[golden coral]

We could do with a better interaction, something like buck/brace. Where you have to choose between holding on vs doing damage and so on.

[hollow canyon]

yea but that would remain a thing just not to the same extent as now

Utahs apply waaay too much bleed and have their stamina drained waaaay too fast

admittedly an alternative option could be buffing up the runtime while keeping the current stamina pool

and drain

[golden coral]

I'd have to test it out I guess, to see how it feels. I'm not saying that it has to be like it is, but I do think that quicker paced pounce/buck is preferable to slower. Even if you limit bleed much more. And I stll wonder if longer pounce time wouldn't just make people go "but why isn't the target already dead", because people do seem to think that attack time should equate to damage done when it comes to pounce.

[golden coral]

So it's more an issue with them not having enough stam to run away after a pounce? And while the drain is fast, the chunk seems more like that's the issue there. If it drained like sprint, you'd have far better control over when you dismount and how much stamina you have left?

[subtle berry]

bro, imagine your self being pounced by a cat but with a little bigger teeth and have 2 claws much bigger than the rest. It will make you have some serious wounds and you probably start to bleed a lot. Its the same when a omni pounces a dino but the only difference is the size between this 2 situations. So no, omni´s bleed on pounce is balanced

[hollow canyon]

yea it is a part of the issue but I generally feel like stuff's happening too fast in Utah's fights

[hasty coyote]

issue with that is dryo, poor lad is already in a terrible spot

[hollow canyon]

Dryo's the first animal that should receive a stamina buff - obviously, I've been going on about it needing a buff to its runtime for a long time now, I think since U6 stress test had its embargo lifted

[subtle berry]

Thats why I have a big suggestion to make to the devs and I think that they will aprove it

about pounce

[golden coral]

I don't know, I'm not sure I can agree with you there. At the very least, I'd like to "fix" stamina drain from chunks to "sprint style" and then see. I imagine that would make a noticable difference when you can choose to dismount at any time, rather than "right now" or "too late".

[hollow canyon]

I already said I rest my case regarding discussion with you, after I got this answer before:

#balance-feedback-discussion message

[golden coral]

Oh. Looking forward to see that then! I personally want both pounce/bucking and lunge/... something I guess. Mostly because just click/hold rmb and click/hold e isn't really that interesting.

[hollow canyon]

I'm generally in favour of having longer fights, I like the fact that most damage values have been lower in the game

I think Carno's charge is one of the remaining outliers that need to be put in their place

it deals absurdly high damage

[hasty coyote]

realism =/= balance
Pachy would "Realistically" 1-shot omni with a head shot ram by snapping its neck or knocking it out. But, thats not what happens because this is a game.

[hollow canyon]

the damage buff it received back in ~3.75 I think was completely unnecessary

this ability should've remained a CC tool

not a damage dealing nuke that you can use once in a while

but after that gets fixed

Utah will be the last remaining issue(and well couple that with pachy I guess since that thing is a balancing nightmare altogether)

Utah either applies an absurd amount of bleed or loses all its stamina in a blink of an eye

I'd very much like it if both were lowered

not too much

but at least a bit, I feel they are both excessive currently

obviously its stamina drain on pounce would have to be nerfed too

tbh I'd just outright remove that passive stamina drain it does to its victim

[hasty coyote]

iirc, pachy is supposed to be a hard counter, which if it is, it works really well as that. If its supposed to be a more even fight, then idk what to do other than making the missed ram delay longer or tap ram weaker.

[hollow canyon]

Idk why that's even a thing

[hollow canyon]

Pachy is a hard counter to the entire roster barring Deino and Stego, it's not an argument

that thing is the most broken animal in the game

I don't remember it being even remotely close to being balanced

[hasty coyote]

thats a stun issue that should def be fixed, I was meaning more intended balance, rather than current balance.

[hollow canyon]

and when I say "broken" I don't mean that it's too strong, I mean that it's conceptually broken meaning impossible to balance

[hollow canyon]

fair enough I agree

removing its stun could help maybe

[golden coral]

Eh, I'm not against that, I guess I just see pounce/buck as only part of the fight perhaps. So to me the fight can be longer even if that particular interaction is still quick.

[hollow canyon]

but I think it might leave it vulnerable

[hollow canyon]

I don't disagree but I think it's such a vital part of the fight that it can't be perceived as "only part of"

[hasty coyote]

not entirely, that would just make it unviable against carno solo. It needs those stuns at the start of the fight so it doesnt tank a hit and can easily be tracked through bleed. However, it def doesnt need them after the dino is broken beyond repair

[hollow canyon]

idk about it having them but not having them, regarding Carno, I've already proposed a solution to that - make it apply a disarm and not a stun

this would mean that Carno can't attack you

but it can move freely upon being hit

how long that would last depends on what would be required

it could be longer than the current stagger I think

since it's nowhere near as oppressive as complete loss of input that the player being affected suffers from the ram rn

[hasty coyote]

2 best ideas for solving it i have heard so far are
1: (my personal idea) make scaling stun immunity. This would apply to all stuns, so we don't have something like this again in the future. The first few stuns act as normal, but repeatedly stunning makes the stun immunity last longer and longer until the target is basically immune.
2: (an idea I'm more hesitant about) make fractures deal the stuns rather than pachy's ram itself

[hasty coyote]

I don't think that solves the main issue of being unable to retaliate after being hit.

[hollow canyon]

you can move away/start escaping/dodge/follow upon being hit

[hollow canyon]

@sick vine wouldn't it be easier to just buff up Dryo's runtime instead?

[sick vine]

Not a bad idea dryo just needs some sort of buff to their stam game

[green onyx]

It's got nothing to do with being beta, they are creating dinos that have abilities and then making them completely obsolete. The Carnos and Utahs have been messed with so many times and they finally had a good balance between the two, then they messed with it and broke it all over again, when what they needed to do was fix their new dino that was completely op, the pachys. Other than that hurry up and add new dinos because you cant balance to creature rosters that arent there. That logical, whats not logical is to balance with any type of rule system without knowing who the players are in the roster. Another thing that is stupid is testing their new updates before release to only a few influencers instead of opening the testing to the public like they use to do. We have all paid for the game before official release of a finished product so we should all be testing it fully, and they should be protecting their investment by not doing risky things and annoy people off by fixing things that dont need to be fixed, its like lets all jump out of an airplane that actually works to see if there is ground below, yeah thats real smart. They are going to lose more players than gain, first impressions count and they keep messing it up and breaking their own game.

[golden coral]

They did have public tests, they were not the... most useful if I recall correctly. And we are kind of testing, since whatever happens on live does change things. As for adding new dinos, they've explained why they're not doing so just yet, we still need a few more of the core mechanics done and all that. Not sure what you mean with balance based on rules. In any case, prior patch was not very wel balanced either, so things clearly needed to change.

[sick vine]

Issue with ptbs is that not only do few people actually play them but they only play it for a few hours

[green onyx]

Balancing anything is based on a logical rule system, if this happens then that happens, programming is a rule system, game mechanics is a rule based system, thats what i mean by that. Yes the prior patch had issues but the only thing wrong between utah vs carno was carnos insane turn on a dime mechanic and utahs magnetic pounce which was really nasty, but hey at least they figured out how to make it actually work for a change, because it was worse before that, when pounce just didnt stick, now its broke again and you cant even stick to a boar properly. Truth is they arent fixing anything, all they are doing is going between one extreme to the other, utah better, no wait carno better, no wait utah better, no hang on carno better. they dont know what they are trying to do, and it wont matter right now because carno is alpha at this point and time and its not supposed to be, once they hurry up and add the other dinos like allo and trex these problems between utah and carno wont even be an issue. Basically one carno should be able to kill one to two utahs, 3 or more utahs should be a challenge or dangerous the more utahs there are from there. utah bleed should actually do more damage and nothing should do one buck and drain your stamina to almost zero thats just absolutely stupid. Carnos should not be so maneuverable in charge and should take longer to get it started not a few steps. this isnt rocket science, its really simple to design these game rule systems and core mechanics. I'm doing it currently with one of my games im designing. It's like paper rock scissors logic. Easy.

hes been typing for a while its gonna be long

lol

[golden coral]

Too much, need to split it up :D And yes, since I'm trying to figure out your take on balancing as well :D

Noted, is there any reason to believe there's no "rules" here though? They do have an idea of how they want the playables to be and behave, and that's the basis for balancing.

No, there were lots of issues in prior patch. Carno charge was kind of useless unless target was afk, omni was overtuned in every which way, bleed, magnetic pounce, return for investment and all that. And my experience so far with omni has worked with pounce, I've hunted boars just fine, and carnos as well. So not sure, maybe that's some other kind of performance issue and not the pounce? They do have a habit of going from one extreme to the other yes, this is an issue and has been so for long, balancing tends to be done in great chunks instead of small changes, for some reason. Carno is kind if supposed to be the "alpha" in an ecosystem of small game that it's meant to hunt though. Sure, when they add the rest of the roster, there'll be plenty of bigger things that will limit carno, but those things in turn are probably not going to be as much of a threat to the smaller critters.

Carno charge should however be manueverable, simply so it can chase things down properly. This should also be rather obvious quite frankly. If the critter is meant to hunt small and agile game, it needs to be good at doing so, so it needs to be able to crank up manueverability to keep up. And carno should be able to take down 2-3 omnis, which it struggled with before if the omnis were even vaguely competent. In general, in open plains, unless you have 3-4 or more omnis, you should run from the carno, it is meant to be the dominant force out there. Sure, carno could take a few more steps to get going now that the charge is useful. And far as I know, omni does bleed because they want it to be an attrition bleeder hunter. It used to do damage back then, and it was changed for said reason.

Bucking needed massive improvements, it was rather useless in prior patch. The issue now is not the drain speed, but that it drains in chunks, instead of like how sprint works. Which means it's hard to react to the drain now when there's an actual drain and not just a "I can keep attacking anyway, despite bucking". Bucking should very much be a "Get off now or die" situation, which it is closer to now at least.

Here you go :D

I doubt balancing in the Isle is rock/paper/scissors though, not quite sure how you're approaching it here.

[dawn falcon]

Is this about ambusher Carno

I assure you, once “ambusher Carno” gets put into a proper plains biome (which would have barely any foliage while also being flat as all get-out), the playstyle would be incredibly unviable.

Gateway does have proper plains if you want a pic 🙂

[golden coral]

No, I think we're more so just talking about if prior patch had good balance overall, compared to now. And I'm curious about his take on balancing in general and the whole concept of rule system for balance, and how that works in relation to the idea of an ecosystem/niche and all those things.

[dawn falcon]

Ah.

Well then, my bad

I guess I’ll leave my two cents

[golden coral]

No worries, everyone is free to chime in!

[dawn falcon]

The previous updates balance is kinda dependent on who you’re talking about. Some people say it was better balance due to their own views on how the game should prioritize balance. It’s kind of a political party in a sense (without the politics). Some people will choose the party of A: balance supporters, while others choose B, this is purely because it is where they fit in and where they will find people with similar views as them.
It’s basically why QA and ST is easier to balance off of, because there are less people who will branch off and have a different view of the game. It’s easier to balance a game when there’s only two parties than five.

[green onyx]

no you are wrong with most of that sorry, carnos were never meant to be agile in turning while charging, did you play legacy. they were a fast straight striker that if they connected, would wreck things. And as a carno you could easily kill 3 utahs before the update if not for their magnet pounce. the bleed was fine, and they keep chaning it back and forth if they dont want utahs to bleed things then why introduce the pounce at all.

that was a reply to Erik by the way

Im not for one dino or the other, it just needs to be balanced correctly and they need to stop over nerfing things and then over buffing others

[dawn falcon]

I agree with that

[green onyx]

pachy needs a serious look at, they are way op, its painful to see that much stupid programming

[dawn falcon]

Which is why I hope they don’t over nerf Carno again and instead, fix it’s hitbox and a couple balance changes (not significant ones) and THEN see how it plays out

Same with Pachy

[green onyx]

pachy needs longer wind up to butt or needs a lower chance to cripple

its that simple

[golden coral]

No, they were not. You have this idea that carno was meant to just run in a straight line, but that does not align with the purpose and targets, or biome, of the carno. It just makes no sense and thats why it was terrible balancing. Carno needs to be able to actually get to the agile targets its meant to hunt. And so, we now have a useful charge.

And no, you could pretty much solo a carno as omni, and you didn't even need to be good at it, due to carnos massive bleed "damage" when moving + the magnetic pounce + the lack of useful charge + the massive bleed on the pounce + the uselesss bucking. All in all, that was not how the matchup was meant to go. And they do want omnis to bleed, you're the one that said it should do do damage?

Also pachy hasn't really changed from then to now, it has better hit detection, but it can and could stunlock a teno or carno in prior patch as much as it can now. And pachy fracture is not RNG based, there's no "chance" involved in it. And it's the CC that causes that issue, not the fracture really. No idea why you think that is related to programming though, not quite sure how you see that related to balancing.

[sick vine]

pachys were buffed heavily since breaks themselves were buffed

The major one is being forced to rest to heal leg breaks

[green onyx]

omg if you think that anything in a game is not part of programming, then your special

[golden coral]

Start by fixing the hitbox, and fixing stamina drain from chunk to normal when bucking. Those two should make things a lot better right there. Add a startup cost for charge, and maybe add another step or two before being able to charge (now that you can use charge openly, there can be a bit more of a startup time since you're already "on the run" most likely). As well as limit what carno can knockdown, and look over the damage.

For pachy, look over the CC and limit what it can stagger/stun on impact, so it can't just shut down a carno or teno like it can right now. If that is changed, pachy might be in a decent spot too right now, especially if it is meant to counter omni and all that.

[green onyx]

programming is the system used full stop

[golden coral]

Yes, but that does not relate to balance decisions.

[sick vine]

wait i thought starting up the isle created a mini dino world in my pc

[golden coral]

We're not talking about the programming, we're talking about the balance. As in, what values and stats and mechanics they settle on.

[green onyx]

are you kidding, that is exactly how you balance a game, game logic

[sick vine]

I think that the devs struggle with idea of balancing the game around realism or gameplay

[golden coral]

You still have to decide on what you want in the game, what kind of mechanic or ability you want a playable to have, and how many HTK and so on, that you want to apply.

[sick vine]

and that they're unsure which they wanna do

[green onyx]

i agree they dont know what they want

[golden coral]

You deciding that "it should take three bites to kill an omni on bodyhits from a carno", is balancing.

[golden coral]

Possible. I think it's more so that they just have a vague idea of how they want things to go, but not detailed enough to make much in the way of balance suggestions. See how omni changed from damage to bleed, or how carno has now changed.

[sick vine]

tho atm the game is like extremely miserable for utahs

[green onyx]

no you deciding it is this versus that or this if this other things happens is balance and game logic

[sick vine]

there really isn't anything you can do other than jump on a rock to stop a carno from killing you

(as utah)

[green onyx]

and thats done with programming, how do you know that the intention hasnt been a mistake with the programming logic side of it, this is why the game has so many bugs, i would not say that they have competent programmers at all. Otherwise something would break so often every time they fix something else, or try to

[golden coral]

So then we mean the same thing but in different words.

[golden coral]

But bugs is not the same as balance. Why would I think the balancing relates to the programming and functioning of the code?

[green onyx]

omg you cant even talk to some people

you have no idea

[golden coral]

Maybe you just see balancing purely as the code while I look at the decisions behind the balancing. Not quite sure where the "difference" here is.

But balancing, and bugs are certainly not the same thing. Or even related.

[green onyx]

you want an argument and you dont understand game development

[golden coral]

I'm trying to understand how you are looking at it. And I think I have a better understanding than you do, honestly.

But it could just be that you have a strange way to phrase things.

[green onyx]

its really simple they dont know what they are trying to create yet so they cant balance it and it will never become a finished game if they try doing it this way

[golden coral]

That seems like an exaggeration. We'll get there, sooner or later!

And far as I know, they do, at least now, have an idea of what they want the game to be.

But considering we've gone from prog to survival, from legacy to evrima, you're not entirely wrong that there's been a few variations of what this game is meant to be.

[green onyx]

this is why project managers and development heads get fired and replaced, cause they cant deliver the vision, and this is the problem with most indie games, they get stuck in a strange i want all these things but we dont know what to do. hence why big games assassins creed and such keep the same formats and just change graphics and locations

[golden coral]

@minor condorIt would be interesting if baby stegos did fractures instead of bleed, would make for a better way to escape things. But I think there's some difficulties involved in balancing that, and finding a "cutoff" from fracture to bleed, and so on. I know it's been suggested before at least.

[golden coral]

Do remember that they are trying for something rather new, so they have to work entirely without much guidance from other games and so on. While I certainly think they're far from perfect, I don't think it's as easy as you make it out to be either.

[green onyx]

anyway i love the game but am sad that they are going to really annoy so many people that theyll stop playing it, first impressions count like i said and steam is littered with games that couldnt finish development because of loss of support.

[golden coral]

They're not going to "annoy" enough people to stop playing to make a difference, especially not with something like a balance patch that will change again in the future in some way, shape or form.

[neon willow]

Fracture itself I thought was supposed to have severity levels eventually-- this might allow the phasing from fracture to bleed. As well as unlocking bleed from raw damage (which itself doesn't make much sense-- why do you need more bleed if you deal more raw damage? It shouldn't scale but be 2 completely separate damage values)

[golden coral]

It was supposed to, but I don't know if we ever get that system. But yes, it would be interesting at least if stegos did that, and it does make some sense. As for bleed, well, pounce does operate on it's own logic, we just need that applied to every attack, and we're good.

[green onyx]

oh yes they will, i know 4 people that have deleted the isle because they are sick of them breaking the game more with each update

[golden coral]

Yes. I said enough to make a difference. With all due respect, the playerbase is a few thousand at least. I think we're good for now.

[green onyx]

those are people i know personally not online

yeah and last i checked it was declining

[golden coral]

I have no doubt people come and go, and sure, some might leave, at least temporarily. But I've heard the whole "this will cause the game to die" so many times, over the years. And yet, here we are, and game is doing fine.

I don't have the updated charts, but last I did see, it didn't look like there was a cause for panic at least. And if people truly do leave over a balance patch, then well, I can't say much for those. Considering we've had issues such as broken mechanics, or the whole "lose dino on logout because bug", and people still stayed around, and played at that, I am not worried.

[green onyx]

lol really, ok. anyone that doesnt care about customer numbers doesnt care about bussiness, then doesnt care about success. if thats there bussiness model then the game will absolutely die a slow death.

so many typos

anyway i gotta go i hope they sort it all out and listen to reason about their bad decisions

[golden coral]

Oh but they do care, far as I know, and I wasn't trying to say otherwise. Since we still have a playerbase, full officials, and everything else. All in all, the game is still better than the "competition", or so it seems at least. It's just that this whole "devs must do this or game dies" have been said so many times, and yet, so far it seems to work.

[golden coral]

They have, hence the new patch, compared to the old!

[sick vine]

The second they start adding dinos the games pop will rocket
this is kinda tin foil hat talk but i honestly think that the devs have more than a few dinos done but that they want to mass release them at once

[green onyx]

cause they arent clever decisions they are just garbage.

[golden coral]

More so that I imagine they might have a few "ready", but they still want the rest of the core mechanics in first, since that will help for the future.

[dawn falcon]

Might be a bit late but..:

[golden coral]

Yes, clearly, that's why the game is still doing well.

[green onyx]

the game is not doing well\

[dawn falcon]

I doubt they “aren’t unsure”. However, they have a vision of how the game should be, for example Carnotaurus in their eyes is a pursuit predator. But some people keep pushing for ambusher Carnotaurus so it conflicts with their vision.

[green onyx]

the game is hanging on because of loyal players and thats not well

[golden coral]

Wouldn't the game having a loyal playerbase imply that they did something right at least :p

[dawn falcon]

“Not doing well”

[dawn falcon]

This 100%

[green onyx]

those numbers are bad for a game to be successful

[dawn falcon]

It’s an indie game my guy
That is huge for one

[golden coral]

Based on what?

An unfinished game, that is one of the first in its genre

[green onyx]

based on every other ultra successful game

in history

since the beginning of time

[dawn falcon]

Are you.. comparing a triple A genre to a niche one such as dinosaur survival lmfao

[golden coral]

Seems to

[green onyx]

on earth

[dawn falcon]

This is a good player count for how niche the genre is.

[golden coral]

I'm starting to think this guy has well, no real understanding, despite his claims to the contrary

[neon willow]

@golden coral I think Seth here is saying that there's a separation between balance intention, ie, carno is supposed to win against Utah, and balance as implemented via code/programming (specific values, eg carno can kill Utah in 2 charges to body). The latter (logic bugs, ie if two stuns conflict, who actually is stunned?) sometimes differs from intention resulting in... Unusual balance decisions. I'd lump growth stage balance in this category-- probably how they balance growth is determining "okay so we want X playable to have Y stats at Z growth" at each new growth stage and then just doing an interpolation between the points. But that results in weird behavior like land sub-croc

[dawn falcon]

If it was an FPS than yes. I would agree with you. However it’s a dinosaur survival game 🙂

[green onyx]

exactly

[golden coral]

But balance decisions is not the same as what happens due to broken code or other such issues. This is why it makes no sense. The intention/decisions and thus the values put in, is balance. The outcome due to bugs is not balance. That's, just bugs.

Like, I get the "sentiment" but it makes no sense.

And the intention includes the actual values put in, not just "x wins against y", because that's not a full balance vision if you only have that.

[green onyx]

dont forget your flying fish, cause thats an awesome mechanic which has nothing to do with programming apparently

[golden coral]

You are capable of understanding that the flying fish is not a balance decision, correct?

[neon willow]

I mean you can interpret this as bugs, and they are, but ultimately the balance we actually see in game is filtered through the programming decisions. And in some cases, they aren't technically bugs-- the code works, just not the exact way it was intended

[green onyx]

lol

[golden coral]

You seem to for some reason not understand that there's a difference between programming, and balance decisions, as in, the values chosen for something to happen in the game.

[golden coral]

If it doesn't work, then by definition it's an issue aside from balance decisions. Again, balance is specifically the values and thus the outcome. If it does not work as intended, see carno charge hitbox being as it is, that's not a balance decision.

If someone did say "We want the charge hitbox to extend this much because reasons", then it would be.

[dawn falcon]

That’s kind of your fault if you make balancing a subcategory of programming. lol

If that’s the case, what is the point of Hypno being a “balance lead” if he has no real experience with programming? Are you implying he’s a programmer, or…

What’s the point of Companies always having “balance testing” if it’s categorized as a subcategory of programming?

[green onyx]

Flying fish is a problem with them not knowing what they are doing and constently breaking the game, look proof here is that they are making a completely new map after trying desperately to fix thing one many times, taking away croc pond, shallows, oasis, they just dont have a clue what they are doing and dont watch what players want, then more players leave and the game will fail if they dont commit and fix things properly.

[golden coral]

The map is due to design choices. Not programming. :p

[green onyx]

fix this one i mean

[dawn falcon]

using an example such as oasis even though the community wanted oasis gone

[green onyx]

omg no its not

[golden coral]

And oh yeah, people have all kinds of opinions on the map, and the things in it.

[calm ibex]

It's far more likely that issues such as flying fish are there purely due to update having to be pushed out at X date in the best shape possible

[green onyx]

no one wanted croc pond gone

[golden coral]

"croc pond"; you mean the one place where all the dumb deinos went to die :p

[dawn falcon]

Clearly you never were in here when general feedback was flooded with Oasis

There were a lot of players wanting oasis gone, that is even what Hypno said in the devblog based on feedback

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

The reason we're getting a new map is at least in part due to the old one just being bad in design and layout and all that. That as well as performance reasons and so on.

[green onyx]

the map is because they dont understand what they are doing hence why the lag was so bad they wanted trees and assets everywhere but they couldnt do it, the system wouldnt handle the load, dont tell me they know what they are doing when they cant even get a server count right

[dawn falcon]

Bug fixing is programming

Balancing is not programming

You have to program to implement balance changes, but it’s not a subcategory of programming.

[green onyx]

basic programming

[golden coral]

The map isn't only because of performance, its also due to level design and all that. Not sure why you can't understand that.

[neon willow]

I'd argue this is the case with deino growth resulting in sub being the easiest, funnest land deino, and also with stun conflicts-- I'm not convinced that they actually thought out "hey if a Utah pounces a teno at the same time teno tail slams then the teno stun is ignored and the pounce succeeds". Likely it's an artifact of what order the dinos are checked for attack effects like stun, which is actually a coding artifact but directly impacts balance @golden coral

[dawn falcon]

That… is a map issue.

Again, different from programming lmao

[green onyx]

rickardo we are talking about multiple things not just balance or programming

[golden coral]

Unintended outcomes is not balancing, and it's also not programming for that matter. And if they didn't think that through, that'd be an issue with a lack of balance vision honestly. And there's a difference between how it works out in the game, vs balancing. We don't consider the broken omni pounce balance, it was just broken, due to programming reasons. So there's still a difference there.

[golden coral]

Yes, and part of the reason we're getting a new map is because we finally have an actual level designer, and not Dondis "bootleg" map work.

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

Are there performance reasons as well, sure. But the main reason is that until Jace, we had no one that actually worked on making maps good. Now we do, so we get a new map made by the guy who knows how to do such things.

[green onyx]

you guys want to go into voice chat and argue this?

[golden coral]

Would that somehow make a difference? :p

[green onyx]

little hard to get it all sorted over text

[dawn falcon]

I would if I wasn’t busy with college stuff lmao

[green onyx]

lol