balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

Long and hard fights, no mistakes. If you keep up the pressure long enough, they will fall

[dusky surge]

since it was infamous for soloing animals WAY larger than itself

[obtuse ocean]

In the future its not gonna be much you need to fear as omni, carno is deffently something that should be killing omnis easy

[frail bobcat]

Yes, its like the perfect omni killer

[dusky surge]

this version of omni actually relies on some level of teamwork

Still think, as an omni, U5.5 omni was ridiculous and stupid in how busted it was

[obtuse ocean]

yea, atleast the ones running out in open fields. Gonna be hard finding the one in jungles etc : P

[timber gazelle]

Can anybody tell me how I should escape carno when he s faster than fully grown omni?

[spring hollow]

be cautious in fields and always bring a buddy

[alpine plover]

Juke, sidestep, rotate around to get behind

You'll win in a game of stam, or getting to cover

[alpine plover]

One last concern though is how rough blood endurance fights will be

I did test that two full uninterrupted raptor pounces only bring down Carno to 30% blood pool

Which seems fine intially, until you take into account that I was nonstop sprinting, and how effective bucking is now

Say if I play perfectly moment to moment with a coordinated teammate, I will bring it down. But the question is, will that take too long for it to be feasibly threatening to said Carno for almost every raptor player

[frail bobcat]

Which means that the call distance nerf/bug (I dont know what it is) hit it even harder because I found many packs with them just 1 calling.

[dusky surge]

the sound issues suck yea

[spring hollow]

sound issues for a lot of things

like how rabbits are the loudest things in the game

and how carnos are silent from behind

[obtuse ocean]

Your talking about carno, your supose to have huge problem with it. If we had full rooster with dinos now,carno is prob the last dino you ever gonna attack. Omnis will prob have a decent amount on its meny thats easier to take down. Its not much that can run away from omnis, so it needs to very balanced.

[alpine plover]

I know Carno is supposed to be a bad matchup because of tool kits, though that's not the issue I'm talking about

The issue is with bucking so effective, and pounce bleed being nerfed, combat will become so strenuous to bring down reasonable sized prey due to such factors

The nature of omni is a creature that hunts down in endurance, low health, meaning low margin of error. Now the lower stam from buck to pushes it to become more number dependent. While increasing longer fight times
If fights drag on for so long, most of the playerbase will be locked out of it's playability.

Which is where I think bucking mechanics should be on their way in by now

[frail bobcat]

That is actually a fair point. Carno has a bleed weakness. The bucking should be tuned down a bit

[obtuse ocean]

Yea longer fights, but you also have the speed/agility/stam to run miles to find prey. If im playing rex im gonna spend tons of time just walking then trying to sneak up on something. The fight is over quick, but getting close and finding can take much longer time.

[frail bobcat]

The issue is that you cant even really use your superior stam unless you tap pounce.

But maybe we should just start tap pouncing

[thin mantle]

Bleed was terrifyingly overtuned last patch, it's still loads of bleed ironically. It's a playstyle shift, holding RMB is no longer a good tactic....which is good since it's skill devoid...tap pouncing is the new way to play omni and it's MUCH more skillful than before since your exit occurs at more predictable times than before, increasing the value of good positioning and a group for distraction

[alpine plover]

So light tap pounces is the current solution for the time being, would you say prey can be brought down in reasonable times?

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, when you are fighting something. But you also gonna "save" alot of time when running around the map.

[thin mantle]

Define reasonable time for you, because for me absolutely

[alpine plover]

Essentially tuned in senses, making great plays, no mistakes, without getting mentally exhausted

[thin mantle]

Then yes, as defined that way I'd say it's more than reasonable

I wouldn't define no mistakes amongst that criteria tho, you can make mistakes, there are just some you can't make more than once

Whilst others you can, like you can tank a carno bite or a claw from a teno as long as you get out of that situation before they followup

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, if you choose to play omni. Thats what you get, you have great agility/speed/stam. Ofcourse it will be playable that are more or less the opposite to play.

[thin mantle]

It's also bizarre that it's in a roster of every animal that counters it harder than a brick wall...but yknow

Roster decisions

[alpine plover]

I see, I'll try tap pounces, and killing no buck pounces after endurance

See how effective that is

[obtuse ocean]

How else you gonna counter it : P

[thin mantle]

If you're doing it right you'll never get chunked for stam during a buck cuz you'll never be on it long enough to hold E

[alpine plover]

Though with current hitbox Carno, it'll skew the play testing for the time being, so I'll wait it out

[thin mantle]

The timing on landing the first or second tick is the part that takes a bit of timing

[thin mantle]

Well...idk why that would matter if you're playing around treelines

why on earth you'd be fighting a carno in the open is beyond me

You're asking to die

[thin mantle]

With less severe counters most likely

[alpine plover]

If it's bugged, I wont do it. thats why

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but to even have chance to catch a utah. You gonna need alot of speed

[thin mantle]

I'm indicating that if you're playing in the right spot it'll never have the ability to charge you...so it's an irrelevant bug in that matchup

[obtuse ocean]

still not used to say omni insted of utah lol

[thin mantle]

Why would an effective counter need to be as fast as it? Teno and stego are good examples of animals that aren't

Pachy even moreso

Pachy counters omni harder than carno does and it's slower than both

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but your talking defensivly. You shouldt only fear something when you decide to attack.

[thin mantle]

When that animal is faster than 90% of the roster...kinda

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, 90% is still alot. thats why carno is in the there, so you cant just run around in the open fields and have nothing to fear.

[thin mantle]

Like I don't think it can be overstated how much authority omni has over engagements in the game generally, it's quite fast, the animals it can't choose to simply walk away from can be counted on a few fingers

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse im sorta talking crap here now, cus carno have that luxery tho lol

[thin mantle]

Well that's one of the reasons I've been so baffled with balance feedback lately...yes charge has a busted hitbox but if you're playing omni with any significant degree of strategy you'll never enter areas where you CAN be charged...or at least you won't stray far from treelines..

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, playing in open fields should be incredible risky when carnos are around. Ofcourse its gonna be much less carnos when more dinos gets added etc

[thin mantle]

Plus gateway is a carno's hell....like there are SO few places where charge can be used without obstacle

Omni is going to have a field day on gateway

Given how easy carno is to kill when in a forest

[frail bobcat]

Finally, after free reign on the plains

[thin mantle]

Well...for about a month...but yeah

[obtuse ocean]

I feel like its me complaining about playing rex, and saying that everyone just runs away from me when they see me. I cant catch anything.

[thin mantle]

That's kinda the point of rex, if you dislike that playstyle play something that isn't rex

99% of animals will survive you by never engaging you

[frail bobcat]

I meant overall, carno had basically all the populated spots in favourable terrain

[obtuse ocean]

lol exactly, thats why i need to be sneking : P not walking out in the open

[thin mantle]

Yes...but it only got favorable matchups as of U6, till that point pachy still destroyed it, teno was a really effective combatant against it but not too effective...and omni just....turned it into shredded paper

[frail bobcat]

But you get what I mean

[thin mantle]

Sorta, but that's like saying "ptera has free reign of the sky"....like yes...it does...

It's not problematic so fortunately it gets to stay that way

[frail bobcat]

Spiro is basically built for carno, while gateway is built for many playables

But I think carno gonna be one of the main bridge ambushers

[obtuse ocean]

Is that map bigger ? then the one we play now ?

[thin mantle]

Probably, tho I can't imagine it being all too good at it

[thin mantle]

Significantly

[frail bobcat]

What do you do against a charging carno when you are on a bridge?

[obtuse ocean]

nice : )

[thin mantle]

If you're anything other than an omni you kill it

If you're a deino or stego....well... that's obvious...
If you're a pachy you figure 8 it into a paste...if you're a teno hope that ping is on your side...but if it is you win

Granted teno is still in the category of "gets destroyed unless merged with the server itself"

So I can't count it amongst the immune

God I miss when teno and carno actually fought...

Instead of the perpetual charge refresh we have now

[alpine plover]

I really think it's time other playables start getting introduced now

[obtuse ocean]

yea same

[thin mantle]

Please

I'm so sick of rebalancing every playable into different niches

[alpine plover]

All the main integral mechanics are in, we got our diets, night vision, water mechanics, new combat additions

[thin mantle]

Perks and elders tho

That...well....is the gameplay loop

[obtuse ocean]

Do we know any of the perks ?

[thin mantle]

No

[alpine plover]

It's about time Cera, Dilo, Bary, Magy, Kentro, Allo
Shake things up

[thin mantle]

Ugh not allo

[keen plover]

Yes. 🥰

[thin mantle]

Allo needs WAY more before it can be added without being a more overpowered version of Carno

[frail bobcat]

Gimme austro and let me ruin the deinos life by snitching to others where it is

[thin mantle]

As far as it’s relationship with the game

[obtuse ocean]

Kill a omni as carno, next life 30% damage boost

[keen plover]

No. Allo is weaker. Trust me. It will be fine to add

😁

[thin mantle]

Gets shown destroying everything because allo

[obtuse ocean]

Omnis would have a much better life with allo in game now, since well they prob cant catch a utah

[alpine plover]

Para, Maia would be cool to see now

Dibbles

[thin mantle]

Dibbles would be better tbh

[obtuse ocean]

dilos would be nice, omnis vs dilos. Not sure how that gonna be tho

[keen plover]

Is diablo even a good pick in terms of newer playables? Seems to be a bit too strong, even if it's small

[thin mantle]

Like I seriously don’t think allo works in a roster with less than 80% of all its playables very well…Tbf I feel the same about Carno

[thin mantle]

How so

[alpine plover]

They're downsizing them

So they'll have less hp

[thin mantle]

Even then it’d be fine

They’d be food for omnis

[keen plover]

Like what does diablo bring? What hunts it? It herds.
Like I said, even if it's small, it's strong. It's a ceratopsian. Nothing but omni would have a chance and that's a solo diablo

[alpine plover]

True, they'd be around Teno's range in size

[keen plover]

Like if 2 diablos group up. GG. Nothing has a chance

[alpine plover]

Carno charge?

[keen plover]

And concept wise, they have big groups

[alpine plover]

Deinos

[thin mantle]

Tbf teno herds….theoretically…

I guess there are better picks but I can’t think of many

[keen plover]

Just face the carno. I'm assuming it has an ability to cancel carno charge. Also deino is deino. Wouldn't really call it a diablo counter

Deino counters allo as well technically. Add it 😁

[thin mantle]

Deino counters the entire concept of survival let alone dibble

[keen plover]

Nah, but I personally wouldn't add diablo without something that can properly hunt it. We already have stego

[alpine plover]

I guess that's why Magy/Kentro are ideal first starter picks

[thin mantle]

Well…that’s Omni

[alpine plover]

Big enough to stand and fight, small enough to hunt

[thin mantle]

Kentro….uhhh….if we’re trying to add something that’s less powerful than dibble I don’t know if Kentro is a good pick

[obtuse ocean]

I hope we dont need big herds to be "safe", imagine how big packs would need to be. If you need to be 5 allos in a group, imagine how big the omnis pack would need to be etc

[thin mantle]

Kentro is….well….the antithesis of the current roster bar deino and stego

[alpine plover]

Tiny head, smaller weight

[keen plover]

Omni's are literally always countered by herds, so I'd hope it's not the only thing that can actually hunt it...

[alpine plover]

Troodons coming up

[thin mantle]

Kentro is essentially a slightly lighter teno that can only be attacked in a single direction

[alpine plover]

So again, a bad Carno matchup

[keen plover]

True.

[thin mantle]

They aren’t, if your pack is functioning well at least, a small group of Omnis would naturally get countered by a herd because the odds are gratuitously out of favor….also…I don’t really have a problem with massive groups of a single dino being relatively safe outside of certain contexts…out of curiosity what DOES “properly hunt dibble”, I can’t think of anything short of acro

[keen plover]

I'd add diablo after dilo and bary

[thin mantle]

Why….especially why bary

[alpine plover]

With venom/poison added
We can expect a Dilo inclusion after troodon
As well as Cera for how complete it's looking

[obtuse ocean]

Troodons will be faster then omnis ?

[thin mantle]

What’s the A-B there

[alpine plover]

Likely

[thin mantle]

Probably not

[obtuse ocean]

offf, carno speed then

[thin mantle]

If dryo is slower than Omni I have zero doubts about Troodon

[alpine plover]

Fast was general, was thinking in mobility as a whole

[obtuse ocean]

Imagine hitting those if they are that fast and small in jungle lol

[thin mantle]

You just wouldn’t

Probably one of the reasons they shouldnt be

[keen plover]

Eh, I always saw bary as ripping any pseudo mid that came into its water. While dilo can actively hunt diablo with venom. I just don't think diablo should come in before them, as it only leaves one competent hunter for them. Meaning we have another strong land herbi that's the meta.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, cus i would prob be bitten 5 times before i even react

[keen plover]

After attacking in the water, bary could potentially give chase, unlike deino

Although deino would one shot diablo so... IDK. I'M NOT MAKING SENSE

[thin mantle]

I’m not sure how dilo is supposed to hunt dibble if Omni would struggle….dilo would struggle SIGNIFICANTLY more…and what does bary do after dibble turns around

[alpine plover]

I really don't think Deino should've been added before Spino or Cherry

Nothing to contest it in waters

[keen plover]

Dilo works in groups right? Just get behind it, apply venom and run. I'm assuming anyways. While one is always opposite of you at least

[thin mantle]

I don’t think deino should’ve been added….

[thin mantle]

Omni also works in groups….I’m confused why dilo is somehow a better more agile and faster group hunter than Omni especially if dilos venom is hallucinogenic and not fatal

[obtuse ocean]

Deino wont have much on them tho in power, but deino gonna have a huge amount on its grab menu lol

[slim dragon]

Nighttime hunter+hallucinogenic venom = one dilo can drive an entire herd mad without being noticed

Without being seen*

[alpine plover]

That's what I mean, with so much in it's grab menu, there needs to be contesting spaces

[thin mantle]

That’s not how NV works tho

You still have to get within range to hit them

Which would make you visible

[slim dragon]

The way it works makes it so you can't see it until it's almost on top of you

[thin mantle]

And if you can apply venom to a dibbles face….ummmm

[obtuse ocean]

When night comes, 90% of servers are joinable : P

[thin mantle]

Sure, but dibble ESPECIALLY makes that tactic borderline unviable

[slim dragon]

Seeing your prey without being seen, just running outside of their vision range, is a huge advantage

[slim dragon]

It's protected only on its front
And it can't turn towards something it cannot see coming

[thin mantle]

Sure, but it’s meaningless if you can’t deals damage without taking a hit

[thin mantle]

But we’re discussing this in the context of a herd, meaning the shield wall tactic

[slim dragon]

Attack them when they're not in formation
That's literally the point of stealth

[thin mantle]

Also if you’re so blind that you can’t see anything 3-5 meters away from you I don’t even know why you’d be logged into the server

[alpine plover]

This is why we need new playables
Right after perks and elders

We're getting starved of interactions

[thin mantle]

Yes but my primary point is that if this tactic is so effective in one of the animals most well adapted to counter the tactic, it’d be absurd against everything else

[slim dragon]

I didn't say 3-5 meters
But creatures in this game are fast

[obtuse ocean]

Beipi or whatver comes soon, another playable i run from everything 90% of the time

[thin mantle]

Sure, but I can react to a Carno charging me within my NV range currently…so I have no clue how a dilo would do that but better

[slim dragon]

It would require skill
95% of Isle players don't even know what being stealthy means

[thin mantle]

Oh absolutely, dilo is just a VERY bizarre choice to note as a dibble counter, that’s my only actual point

[alpine plover]

If anything is a dibble counter, it's something to heavy for it's head to deflect

[thin mantle]

It has so many advantages against dilo hypothetically

[keen plover]

The only true counter to diablo is alberto or allo. Anything else lacks the ability. I'm sorry, unless you're playing it solo, most players ain't going to down a competent diablo

[slim dragon]

Yeah honestly I think omni would fare better, all I'm saying is dilo could be an actual threat

[alpine plover]

It's got agility, good defense, hits hard

[thin mantle]

I can’t even see either working unless the logistics are absurd, which isn’t impossible that’s very common in this game, but dibble is exactly at heart stabbing position for both

And if either are agile enough or fast enough to overcome its standing turn rate….uhhhhh

[keen plover]

heart stabbing doesn't mean much in the current game if I'm being honest. Allo has a grapple, alberto has a hold. Both are 2x the size of diablo. Also allo packs exist as well, which could help counter diablo herds. But even then... It feels a bit too early for them.

[alpine plover]

Poison is coming to the game

I'm convinced Magy is poisonous at this point

[thin mantle]

Ok so what are we expecting from grapple….you go up to a dibble and RMB it into a pin?
Also again, we’re taking an animal twice the size of dibble and giving it numbers to define what an effective counter to it would be….that isn’t indicative of a counter as much as it is us throwing DPS at a dibble until it dies regardless of mechanical suitability

Plus Pachy has decimated any perceived size advantage for attacking carnis for me

Pachy solos an animal nearly 4 times it’s size already

[keen plover]

I don't know what they plan for allos hold. Whether it will pin a diablo or not, the bleed / damage would probably be significant enough to give the allo the win.
On the pachy side of things, sure? It's overtuned in that regards, but that doesn't mean it always will be.

[thin mantle]

Well….whether or not it’ll pin a Diablo sorta determines whether than damage and bleed is being applied at all would it not?

Btw I hate allo pin with a searing passion don’t get me wrong there

[keen plover]

All I know is, and my main point is, diablo would be bad inclusion without something that can fight it somewhat evenly. Unless they decide to put its migration in some unique place where it won't even matter

[thin mantle]

True, that’s why we started discussing potentially effective counters

[alpine plover]

Hence why Magy/Kentro/Cera seem like better candidates to add to the roster

[thin mantle]

Indeed they do

[alpine plover]

Each of the inclusions would effectively impact the roster

[thin mantle]

Meg is also in there as well, tho basically no work that we know of has been done on it

Unfortunately

[alpine plover]

Meg doesn't seem to be ready

[thin mantle]

In a roster sense or work done on it

Because roster wise it’s VERY ready

[alpine plover]

Though add those 3 in also with dilo
Sprinkle in the other smalls that are ready, and the game is fresh

[thin mantle]

Mhm….as much as it doesn’t address any issues the game has I really wanna play with Herrera asap

[alpine plover]

Herrara does seem like lots of fun

[thin mantle]

Especially if they go full concept art and add treehopping

[keen plover]

I hope they add galli, dilo and austro as the last smalls after troodon and add all the pseudo mids

[alpine plover]

Scavenging, hunting juvies, skittering about and climbing

[obtuse ocean]

I saw galli was gonna be an omni

[keen plover]

yep

[thin mantle]

God I hope it isn’t an egg thief

[alpine plover]

Ovi and galli are omnivores

[keen plover]

I wish we had an omni that can swallow small kills

[alpine plover]

I just want Dilo/Magy/Kentro/Cera/Bary to freshen up the game

Then we're set

[thin mantle]

Same, tho I also want the current playables to….function

[alpine plover]

They're holding on for now
Sorta..

[thin mantle]

Kinda…….sorta……not really

[keen plover]

We'll probs need to wait for all the main updates to be done...

[thin mantle]

Omni Pachy deino stego and Carno are….everything else is just….why are we even here

[thin mantle]

I can’t imagine why when none of the main mechanics solve the balancing issues the game has rn

[keen plover]

I meant it more as a a priority sort of thing.

[thin mantle]

Oh gotcha, as in priority….makes sense, even if I think those priorities are wild

[obtuse ocean]

I would never play anything else if beipi could push small dinos into the water while drinking, and then taunt.

[alpine plover]

Perks/Elders should've came way before Nesting/Skins

That was strange

[thin mantle]

A lot should’ve….but yes

[alpine plover]

Should've been update 1 or 2

[thin mantle]

The existence of a gameplay loop would’ve been nice to have early on

[obtuse ocean]

Im still very curiuos if its gonna be worth getting perks

[alpine plover]

If it was here before, imagine how much tweaking and adding they could've done already

[thin mantle]

If they don’t effect balance in almost any meaningful way despite making your gameplay better/different I’d be happy

That’s very vague, but that fits perks quite nicely

[obtuse ocean]

Yea agree, diffrent playstyles etc

Who knows maybe you need to even get pounce etc : P

[frail bobcat]

@stone garden were those pounces bucked or normal?

[stone garden]

He didnt buck the first one but started bucking on the second

[frail bobcat]

If you fought for 25 minutes there is a good chance that the pachy just healed its bleed

But I agree with you that omni is too weak and pachy overtuned

[stone garden]

I got two bites in those 25 minutes, he didn't get a chance to run away or lay down or wallow

[frail bobcat]

You can still heal bleed while standing or running

[stone garden]

it was him mainly chasing me trying to spam RMB and when he missed i'd go in for a tail bite

[frail bobcat]

And two pounces (one of which was bucked off) and two bites in 25 seem possible to heal midfight

[frail bobcat]

The RMB endlag needs to be looked into

Its way to low

[stone garden]

Ok even if he healed the bleed it would say that pounce is in a very bad state, and to be bitten twice after those pounces should increase bleed

[frail bobcat]

Pounce needs some tweaking to bucking and it is balanced (for the first time in its existence).

[stone garden]

It is not balanced VS every other dinos attack, sorry but you are wrong.

So a pachy should be able to just two shot a omni with RMB?

[frail bobcat]

A pachy can not do that

[obtuse ocean]

How big is pachy compared to utah ? i dont even know whos bigger

[stone garden]

LOL ok

They are same size if full grown

[frail bobcat]

The pachy RMB needs a bigger endlag

[frail bobcat]

Pachy is 500 kg, omni 450 (start using omni)

[obtuse ocean]

ahh, ok

[stone garden]

Pachy isn't 500? they are both 450, please don't spread misinformation.

[frail bobcat]

Pachy is 500, please don`t spread misinformation

[stone garden]

I just played pachy and took out two omnis for giggles, 100% they are 450, raptor is 450

[somber sphinx]

Pachy is 500 kg and Omni is 450

[stone garden]

It is basically two RMB to kill a full grown raptor.

[frail bobcat]

Thank you

[frail bobcat]

Its basically two RMB to kill a full grown pachy for omni too (once pounce is balanced)

[stone garden]

interesting moment 🙂

it was swimming throught the air

[hollow canyon]

That's completely normal - every fish can be a flying fish in The Isle

[hasty coyote]

Pachy is 500, it doesn’t get pinned by Omni pounce because of that. While omnis pin each other because they are the same weight.

Also, pachy does not 2-shot Omni with ram. A Charged ram does 125, so it takes about 4 hits to kill an Omni. If you use only headshots it’s still 3 hits. And good luck hitting charges rams on an Omni that actually knows how to dodge. The only way pachy can 2-shot Omni is with 2 headshot charged rams and a tap ram, or 2 charged rams, and 2 headshot tap rams.

[dawn falcon]

Another day, another time to discuss my hatred for feedback pushing Carno into “an ambush predator role”.

[obtuse ocean]

I dont play much pachy, but does a ram "1 shot" the omni with the fracture it deals ?

[neon willow]

Depends on the fracture. Leg fracture? Game over. Body fracture, and it's still anyone's game. Head fracture gives a heavy advantage to pachy but I wouldn't rule out a draw (due to vision reduction, if I get head fractured I'm leaving the fight)

Honestly ram targeting seems somewhat finicky and inconsistent from what I've heard, although I haven't played pachy much

[hasty coyote]

Eh… not really. Unless you’re in a 1v1 in the middle of the plains with no escape or bushes to hide in and get a leg fracture or a body fracture if there’s literally nowhere to hide. Even then, it’s difficult to get a leg fracture at most angles since to have to be precise.

Other than that, unless a pachy can send you off a cliff, you aren’t being 1-shot by a pachy.

However, a single fracture could end the fight if the Omni doesn’t think it can win and just runs away.

[hasty coyote]

It is much more consistent this patch, unless lag is horrible, then literally none will land.

[dawn falcon]

Still wish Pachy comboing ram into downwards ram was an insta-kill for Utah, much like how bleed absolutely demolishes Pachys bloodline.

At least for the head.

[hasty coyote]

Bleed honestly isn’t too bad this patch with the bleed resist and bucking buff. A full 1-shot is a bit harsh.

[hollow canyon]

It doesn't and that's absolutely unnecessary, Pachy is already broken enough, this is the equivalent of asking for a Carno buff rn

[golden coral]

True, I think pachy handles bleed quite well now, and with the useful bucking, it should be quite capable to handle a single omni at the least.

So no worries on that account honestly, if you let an omni pounce you fully, then yes you will die and you kind of deserve it then.

[dawn falcon]

I may or may not have been autopiloting when I made that statement. But yeah

[golden coral]

I'm not opposed to the idea of a "combo" to be honest, but that'd require the ram to be much less damage and only for fracture pretty much.

[hollow canyon]

Leg breaks aren't that hard to get, lately during testing I've had a lot of issues getting a bodyfracture instead of the leg fracture at times

[hasty coyote]

Plus, the better hit registration makes using ram in a fight against Omni actually useful if the Omni can’t dodge.

[golden coral]

Though it would be interesting, since it'd make pachy more capable at executing things it can knock down, but not so much on things it can't.

[golden coral]

It got a bit silly there in the end xD

[hasty coyote]

Maybe I’m just aiming at the wrong spot, or those you were fighting are at different angles. 90% of the omnis I fight get knocked down facing towards me so it’s hard to get the leg fracture.

[hollow canyon]

wasn't a fight - it was a test

I was testing the fracture regeneration buff with Erik

he fractured my leg like 4 times in a row while we were looking for a body fracture

and then the one time we wanted to get the body fracture he fractured my Utah's leg

note - body fractures heal much, much slower than leg fractures

and that buff does work

[hasty coyote]

Ah that’s probably why then. Movement makes it a lot more finicky. I was fighting a 1v2 against omnis, I only got like 4 leg breaks total in like 5 rounds. Which isn’t bad, but it was only when I had a good angle and norm was like the second knockdown.

If whatever Omni inertia shadow nerf thing is actually real, then pachy may have difficulty fighting them again. Since it’s mainly good rn because you can actually land your hits. If it becomes more difficult to hit, then I would consider trying to buff headslam depending on how much it impacts the fight.

Other than that, stuns need a rework or pachy needs a way to prevent it from beating people to death, but allow it to break and run like it does now. Teno also just needs super armor on tail slam, pachy won’t be the only thing with stuns that can hard counter teno.

[dawn falcon]

I absolutely want headslam to, at the very least, be stronger so it’s utilized more in combat. It’s just so satisfying to land, and if it was more useful compared to alt-LMB, I’d really enjoy it.

[stone garden]

stego army ftw!

[frail bobcat]

Apex btw

[golden coral]

@frosty wedgeMaybe when there's more things to hunt deinos, but as it stands, they only need to fear their own, so encouraging cannibalism is at least for now a good thing.

[sick pike]

^^^ keeps the population down

[frosty wedge]

eh i dont know like i try to hunt stegos its a challenge, and i find it more rewarding to kill a stego then to just eat a fish

[golden coral]

You can still do that though?

Don't deinos have stego on diet?

[frosty wedge]

stego is same diet type as fish

[golden coral]

(at least they have organs anyway these days)

[golden coral]

So... just don't eat fish and hunt stegos then if you prefer?

Not sure how that relates to not wanting deinos to eat other deinos?

[frosty wedge]

well i guess the issues is more or less with the best buff per diet is the easiest to get

[golden coral]

Ah okay, well, I guess it makes sense that it'd be on deinos then, since that least means they cull each other. I guess you could put it on stego, but that'd be almost as easy to get (assuming there's enough people playing it) and only encourage more deinos due to teamwork to take out the stego.

[frosty wedge]

like 3 "S" type diet gives 25% more health and regen, and you can get that just eating deinos never have to do anything else

[golden coral]

Yeah, but at least it does mean you need to eat other deinos, thus being a threat to them.

[frosty wedge]

there is no threat other than other adult deinos, which when i am on my adult i see far more little ones, so its like shooting fish in a barrel, but my play style is i dont eat other deinos unless attacked first

[golden coral]

Well it's kind of what I meant, larger deinos are a threat to smaller ones. Or numbers vs a solo adult for that matter.

[frosty wedge]

yea it forces you to be cannibal. example two adult deinos kill every deino in site to maintain the 25% hp buff, so you and a friend also adults in order to compete with their 25% hp buff in case they attack you, you must also become cannibal just to compete against the canni crocs. idk i feel like it could be balanced different than forcing someone to eat their own kind

[median swan]

I think it’s completely fine, more favorable dinos need to have greater challenge

[stone garden]

1# You're playing on official server, where you get killed for sport and not survival. 2# All forms of this species ate smaller ones that weren't it's mother, you are the apex of you're environment and mother nature keeps over population in check by cannibalism. More Denios is less fish, starving Deinos need nourishment. I used to not stay in the water when growing, I'd fill my diets and hide in land in the bushes or forests near the jungle, avoid the populated areas. When nesting becomes a thing mother Deinos will protect you against cannibalism.

I did notice that Deinos don't have a diet for goat/deer/rabbits/boar which should be on their diets, if it drinks water then it should be on the platter. I've actually killed these near rivers and its discouraging they aren't a diet.

[mellow zenith]

@frosty wedge What is your problem here the actual 25% increase regen heatth/locked health or the cannibalism ?

[frosty wedge]

i guess it would be that the 25% increase in health/regen is tied to the triple "S", maybe make something that good bound to the 3 diet trees instead of just the one tree

[hasty coyote]

The stam regen one is useful too.

Plus, if you go for 3S by killing crocs, you’re going to need the hp regen after the fights.

[frosty wedge]

being an adult and hanging around where the hatchlings spawn in just to grab them and eat them isnt that much of a fight just gets old doesnt force them to swim around. and go after other things

[hasty coyote]

That’s more of an issue with spawn locations on the map. Plus, juvies can easily run to land and escape.

[frosty wedge]

yes i would agree up until this update. sub adult can run over 30kpm and hatchie spawns in at 24kpm they took the speed away from the little guys so running on land is moot now

[night compass]

@frosty wedge I feel like the cannibalism for deinos helps keep the balance in check. Currently it's doing nothing because everyone wants to be deino now, but when it ecosystem is balanced it helps keep the population in check

[wraith relic]

More accurately tries to keep the balance in check

[undone hill]

@candid herald this is about you last carno charge post I do get what you saying but I think a adjustment could be raising Utah health instead of taking the damage on charge down bc if we take damage on charge down then it’s fair for Utah fights but not for pachy and teno, but if you just raise the Utah health then it’s still far in a pachy and Tenno fight but now it’s also fair for Utah so it’s all around good. But I do very much agree on you last part 3 steps is crazy

[slim dragon]

But raising utah's health imbalances its matchup with everything else...

[analog mirage]

Here’s a idea. Fix the charge hitbox, and not take Omni’s stamina in two ticks from bucking. Boom balancd

Just cause something gets buffed doesn’t mean something else needs a buff

[golden coral]

@silk harnessReverting the carno charge is a bad idea, the new charge is actually useful. Same with bucking, the new bucking is useful, the prior one was useless. If we're going to adjust something, then work on what we have now, instead of going back to a worse state first. Fix the charge hitbox issue, and fix the stamina draining in chunks, and it's pretty solid as it stands when it comes to those two (and look at the whole turn/inertia thing, or whatever did or did not happen there). Pachy do need some changes in its cc abilities, and carno could use a look at it too. But all in all, we're better off now than before when it comes to how playables and mechanics should perform.

[dusky surge]

I legit like new charge, I just think hitbox, knockdown weight threshhold and lack of stam consumed on use make it frustrating

[golden coral]

Yep. Adjustments needed, but my main point is that charge is now more in line with being useful for the targets it should. Same with bucking, adjustments needed, but now it's in line with being a counter like it should be.

[neon willow]

Honestly even if bucking drains Utah Stam quickly like now, as long as it is smooth drain so you can predict when you'll run out, it would be fine

The issue is you get 2 ticks to react before you're out of stam

[turbid crater]

Speaking of which

[somber sphinx]

Get folded

[golden coral]

@turbid craterDo you think it would help and/or feel better if the drain just worked like sprint, instead of that chunk. Would it give you better control over when to dismount and all?

[hasty coyote]

You’re also trying to 1v1 a carno as an Omni in the plains with no cover.

[turbid crater]

@somber sphinx well f me, in one frame I have 90% stam, in the next I got 10% haha
@golden coral Utahs lose stamina on their own as they hold the pounce. The stamina loss should be progressive with the stun/falling at the end of the buckle, but that should drain the person holding E as well.

[turbid crater]

Wrong and that's besides the point. With 90% stamina I could easily have made it to the forest next to me. Anyways, that's besides the point. We're talking about mechanics here not if I should have attacked or not.

[hasty coyote]

Maybe we could make pounce more forgiving by reducing the bleed damage, but reducing the stam drain.

[hasty coyote]

But you instead of easily running away into the forest, decided to fight, pounce, burn the rest of your stam.

Which to me seems fine honestly, seems like that interaction should have gone about the way it should have.

[turbid crater]

What part of "I lost 80% of my stamina in 2 frames" didn't you get lol

[golden coral]

We could, but then I feel like it'll just slow the pace. The drain seems fine, it's the issue of the "goes away in chunks" that causes the visual "error" it seems.

[hasty coyote]

That’s probably the fist thing to fix, then see what Omni needs.

[golden coral]

I'm.. not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Bucking does cost stam. And "progressive with the stun/falling off"? What do you mean there? I asked you if it would look and feel better if the drain was like normal sprint in how it works and looks, instead of going in chunks like it does right now.

[golden coral]

I'd say so yes. Carno charge hitbox, pachy CC, "sprint like" drain instead of chunks, and similar fixes.

[hasty coyote]

The rest of those were implied too.
||Also please buff dryo, my man got done dirty this patch ||

[golden coral]

So noted. And yes, a little bit more dryo speed would be nice, but still slower than omni. And for the love of all that is holy, lower the cost of the dodge!

[turbid crater]

That's what I said. The stamina loss from being buckled needs to be progressive not get wasted in 2 frames.

[hasty coyote]

(Has to dodge constantly, dodging more than 3-4 times means you have less stam than Omni

[golden coral]

Oh okay, that's what you meant then. Alright, sorry!

[hasty coyote]

Yeah the 2 massive ticks make it super polarizing

[neon willow]

It's hard to predict how much time you have when you have 2 ticks before you fall

It either needs to be progressive, or multiple ticks at a faster rate

Not necessarily upset that Utah can't cling to the back of another dinosaur for 3-4 seconds, just that you can't estimate how long you have before you have to deal with knockdown

[turbid crater]

As it is, it's possible to 2v1 a FG carno with Utahs if they don't know about the Hold E to buckle mechanic. If they do, they tap E, raptor loses all of its stamina and rip. It is impossible to do anything about it.

[neon willow]

Assuming they don't charge and have the absolute massive hitbox of that attack hit you

[turbid crater]

ah ye, but that's another issue. they gotta nerf the head ram lol, it's not acceptable the carno one shots a fg utah with a single head ram

[neon willow]

But yeah, making buck Stam drain more predictable for Utah's, and fixing the carno hitbox might be all the change that is needed to get decent balance again

[neon willow]

It's not even that, the hitbox is massive. I've seen multiple cases where the carno rams and knocks down Utah, teno, pachy, despite being nearly a full body length away from their prey

[turbid crater]

I reckon thats more ping issue not the size of the hitbox

[neon willow]

If they actually had to aim, then... It wouldn't be such a big deal

Maybe, but... I used to play Utah and teno a lot, and since the update is the first time I'm seeing issues with carnos hitting me without visibly hitting me

[golden coral]

*omni if you please. :p

[golden coral]

That sounds kind of reasonable to be fair, I don't think two omnis should take on a fully grown carno in the open.

[neon willow]

Old habits die hard. And it doesn't help that the Paleo Utah isn't out yet, so there's no real urgency to making sure you use the right name

[golden coral]

I think it's only a oneshot if you land the headshot on the omni?

[turbid crater]

Which is easy to get. So yeah. One shot.

[neon willow]

That's an issue of hitbox again

Though if I remember right, ram does 300 base damage (omni headshot is 1.5 multiplier resulting in 450 damage and a one shot)

Honestly I could see ram reducing damage slightly due to the fact that it ALSO causes knockdown... Allowing for a few free hits

Maybe like 250ish

[hasty coyote]

No it has been tested with the target standing still, the hitbox extends a decent bit out to the sides. Granted, lag exemplifies it a lot, but the hitbox is also massive.

[golden coral]

Yeah, charge could do with a damage and CC nerf (poor tenos). It should be more of a land charge to confirm kill with bites.

[dawn falcon]

Another day, another feedback post wanting Carno to be an ambush predator.

[golden coral]

Where does that even come from in the first place? At what point has our carno ever been an ambusher, in legacy or evrima? :p

[dawn falcon]

Pretty sure it all started with Kavs videos about Carno being an ambusher and how anything otherwise makes Carno either unviable or ridiculously OP.

[neon willow]

Honestly idk how it's supposed to ambush if it's habitat is open plains XD not like it can hide in tall grass like a lion

[dawn falcon]

Now everyone just rolls with it, even though it still makes no sense.

[dawn falcon]

This 100%.

Everyone says “errrr sneak on hills!” Or “hide in bushes” but a proper plains biome probably won’t have that stuff and would be flatter. 🙂

Pain

Doesn’t help that the community is so split on balance.

[neon willow]

As always, everyone sees something bad, but has completely different ideas of how to fix it

And idk why but people tend to treat nerf like a dirty word.

[dawn falcon]

Embrace the pursuit predator playstyle

Make it completely capable of hunting smalls in open, flat plains.

The devs intend to make it a:

1). Small game hunter.
2). Pursuit predator.

If you make it’s turn utterly trash, it ruins both of these as smalls will outturn and be vastly more agile than it.
This even goes for it being a pursuit predator. It can’t actually pursue anything if it’s turn is dogwater, can’t use its charge like a weapon for combat (not ambushing), etc.

Can’t wait for gateway to have open plains and for Carno to be horribly unviable, and one half of the community is like “hurdurr this is balanced! 🤓”

[tall bronze]

That's one of the things I never understood about Carno being a small game hunter. It's always known for having awful turning.....the thing that small game has the exact opposite of. So how do you chase em? Ambush?.....as an open plains hunter?

Carno has always been an enigma to me.

[obtuse ocean]

They did in legacy, even with really bad turn. In the open that is, they where useless if you manage to get away to trees etc.

[golden coral]

Yep. Carno always seemed for some reason to be designed in opposition to what it was claimed to be good at. Legacy carno worked quite well vs larger and slower things as opposed to smaller and faster things. It was very strange.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea it was strange lol, but how was cera vs carno? I dont remember

[tall bronze]

Cera could theoretically deal with them pretty well. But get bit once as Cera?......

🙂

You had great turning, good damage, but bleed resistance was essentially "paper-cuts are lethal" levels of bad

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh! Thats true, that bleed resistance was brutal

[golden coral]

Cera dies. Run through, trade bites, bleed it to death.

[dusky surge]

i honestly don't think the fact it can oneshot an omni is that bad? i think in combination with the current hitbox and the fact you can spam the hell out of it, yea, that's bad, but having the ability to one-shot a small as a small-game hunter on the off-chance it's looking at you, that's fine imho

head ram needs a nerf, sure, but i dont think it needs a nerf in the damage department

[tall bronze]

It'd be cool if it was something you build up to during a chase and it's a make-or-break kinda deal. Succeed and you got dinner. Fail and hssssssss ah, yeah, nah, sorry, maybe next time.

Not something that's like "oops I missed." does it again

[dusky surge]

i'd honestly like it if it were just given a 5% stam cost on usage

every other animal in the game has an initial stamina cost upon using their special ability

(except hypsi, who has a a stomach cost, and ptera, who doesn't have a combat ability)

[tall bronze]

Well technically Ptera's ability is flight which uses stam

[dusky surge]

did some guy spam his own posts with like 100 positive reactions so that it seemed more liked lol

also i love the " I play video games to have fun and not to get stressed out as like this". So did other people who play other animals, too bad U5.5 omni was a source of stress for everyone with how good it was

[hasty coyote]

Horror survival game is totally supposed to be relaxing.

[dusky surge]

fave part is def the fact that they have a raptor pfp

[willow cliff]

Raptor pfp or not carno is still most certainly overtuned in its own right, doesn’t help the fact that it’s charge hitbox is the size of the map

[dusky surge]

oh yea, no doubt, this guy's just REALLY funny

[keen plover]

I think pouncing as a solo raptor should mean your stamina gets nuked. Should incentivise double pouncing. Even quadruple on things like stego. The stamina drain on double pouncing seems a bit too high.

[dusky surge]

honestly, it'd be interesting to see the pounce stam damage scale with omnis on the animal

[willow cliff]

Shadowclaw the great ambushes his enemies from behind securing the kill

[dusky surge]

since it'd be harder to buck off multiple because of the weight

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

also encourages the pack hunters to pack hunt

[keen plover]

Literally force it into pack hunting. Solo players should have no chance against larger creatures.

[golden coral]

Doesn't it already increase stamina for bucking the more omnis are on the target?

Could have sworn that's supposed to be a thing.

[dusky surge]

Oh, the idea is more the stamdrain is reduced the more omnis you have

Pretty sure that is a thing, yes

[golden coral]

Could always up that, so it's more noticable, especially now that you don't want to run out of stam.

[dusky surge]

basically, insentivising pack play any way you can

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

buff omni in groups, keep it bad alone tbh

[golden coral]

That'd be nice yes. I do want to see more of a jump the target together, rather than one at a time.

[keen plover]

Yep. Force it to hunt creatures smaller than it solo, but let it be an apex hunter with a full pack.

[dusky surge]

If it becomes harder to buck the more pounce you (increased stam drain, decreased stam damage), this becomes a lot more interesting, and a pack becomes a respectable threat

[golden coral]

Eh, honestly not sure omni should hunt apexes anymore. Not that the idea itself is neccesarily bad, mostly that it seems to make omni players feel that they should be more powerful than neccesary.

[tall bronze]

At some point though, wouldn't it just become "welp, too many on me guess I'm dead because I can't hold E harder"

[golden coral]

True, but I'd prefer adding stam cost to the bucker, simply becaue if we go with letting them stay on longer, there's the whole rebalance of bleed/damage we might have to do again. As opposed to just adding cost for the bucker to tie into wearing out the target until it can buck no more.

Though that also depends on how well pounce works, if it's still magnetic, and so on of course. If it's properly difficult to get the full set on at the same time, then it should be fine if they're decently lethal when they do pull that off. Though not sure how many rounds of a set should be needed for the kill.

[tall bronze]

Also wouldn't this kiiiiinda encourage mindless "run up and spam RMB" mobbing rather than actually being smart with pounces?

[keen plover]

Depends. Are you a solo player (carno, pachy, teno) that just ran into a group of 8 omni's? Then it should honestly be that. A mobbing. Stego should have a much better chance since it's heavier, however 8 omnis shouldn't be as easy as it is currently. Although most of the issues with that matchup is the map.

Pounce by itself is already a run up and spam rmb thing. Not like that would change

[golden coral]

Map issue in what way?

[keen plover]

The main place stego eats, the "plains", have so many tools for it to use to counter omni. So that's why we have always had an overinflated stego playerbase. Literally every fight will have a solo stego player just walk up to a tree.

Cliffs, inclines whatever else

[golden coral]

Well, considering that was the only viable way to counter omnis, I can't see any issue with that honestly. The issue is more so that stego needs that, when it really should be able to just swipe omnis off itself or similar.

[tall bronze]

I'd just rather try and make pouncing and bucking more than just holding a button and have a b i t more depth to it

[golden coral]

At least now bucking is useful. So less need to find a tree or cliff. If you make it worse again, you're just going to get back to that "meta".

Out of 8 omnis, 5-7 should probably die in the attempt vs a fully grown stego, considering how suited it is for countering them.

[keen plover]

I don't know about you, but literally every stego fight I've had is them doing that. It hasn't changed anything this update, but made it easier for them

[golden coral]

I've yet to meet anything but the random other playable, no groups aside from a stego family once. Something about no one hearing my calls and so I remain alone :p

[keen plover]

Even the bleed resist build. Like why give that to stego?

[thin mantle]

I don't mind, stego is an insane target for omnis anyway

[golden coral]

Tailored diet paths wouldn't be bad, but I'm sure we'll get that. Though I can see stegos having that anyway, especially if they themselves are given more bleed.

[keen plover]

but it's the only thing that can even touch stego. As long as it's in the game, omni needs to hunt it

[golden coral]

Mirror matches could be a reason to spec into "I can handle bleeders well".

[tall bronze]

So then remove it from the game for now 👍

[thin mantle]

Remove it then

[keen plover]

THEY WON'T

[thin mantle]

Don't overbalance omni or arbitrarily nerf it

[tall bronze]

Let it come back when it's baked in the oven fully.

[golden coral]

They still can. It's more so a matter of how well they should. Also honestly, we need more reasons for stegos to only come in pairs and not tolerate each other as much as they do.

[thin mantle]

Also remove deino if we're removing stego...it's several times worse in every regard than stego in this category

[golden coral]

I'd work on that part more, I dislike the "but it needs a predator" argument so much.

[thin mantle]

It's literally unkillable

[tall bronze]

Add Kontree and Bonkyonerx pls

[golden coral]

Better to make it so that even if everyone was stego, they'd have reasons to cull their own until only like 6-8 adults remains.

[keen plover]

Talking about that. You seen the deino population recently? 💀

[thin mantle]

Dear god

It's the majority server pop rn

With zero competition like it's demonstrable

[golden coral]

Deinos are getting better at hunting stegos, especially when the new lunge is fixed (and then we need to figure out how to prevent 4-6 adults in the same spot + another 2-4 subs...)

[thin mantle]

Deino can solo rn

[keen plover]

20 - 24 in center river the other day and I'm not even joking

[thin mantle]

Oh I believe it...I think the average rn is around 70%

[golden coral]

Me going to drink as solo stego. Four adults coming up on land after me... plus their subs running up to start nibbling at me xD

[thin mantle]

It's why the game feels deader than it is

[thin mantle]

And you wouldn't have even known

[golden coral]

Yes please! :D

[keen plover]

True. Very true... It's just that any competent stego will just avoid them / run the moment they get stunned

[tall bronze]

Maybe adding the 8 Ton alligator in an early stage of the game where growth isn't properly difficult for bigger things yet because bigger things shouldn't exist yet was a poor idea 😛

[thin mantle]

Maybe deino is just fundamentally flawed regardless of the roster composition

[keen plover]

I may have been off it, but I grew for an hour and was carno sized.

[tall bronze]

Eeeeeeeh personally I wouldn't go that far with it, but it definitely strikes me as a "we should add this thing well later on" kinda thing.

But instead we got "NOPE, FIRST AQUATIC 8 TON ALLIGATOR"

[thin mantle]

No that's just growth curves rn

[keen plover]

yeah...

[tall bronze]

Yeah why are the juvies so friggn' fat?

[golden coral]

Oh I'm sure they still do, but at least I hope they don't need to, which was my point. I feel it's important that there is proper counter to omni without having to rely on terrain, otherwise you do get the "I am dead unless next to x", which isn't engaging, as we see with deino. Obviously if someone is near a tree they might use it to cut off attack vectors, and that's fine by me, but it shouldn't be "I need to scrub the omni off/send it to it's doom via cliff" to fight them.

[thin mantle]

Lunge is a terribly designed embarrassment of a mechanic, it honestly doesn't matter what else exists around it

[keen plover]

There is literally no safe drinking spots with the way deinos are. Juvis / subs can run so far and grab you now.

[tall bronze]

Oh that I can agree on

[golden coral]

Which at least makes the stegos vunerable and will limit the ones that don't escape. And even the ones that escape are now more vunerable anyway. But honestly, I'd treat stegos the way I do deinos as anything but stego or deino = just ignore. You're not meant to go after them, in most cases you can't, so leave them be. Most stego players get bored anyway because they don't like being large, slow, and chill xD

[keen plover]

40-45% deino is the golden spot. High stamina, speed, HP.

[thin mantle]

Like the only way I can see deino working is if you remove the advantages that are intrinsic to it

[thin mantle]

honestly 60% is even better, you're faster, your stam is negligibly lower and you're a carno's weight larger with nearly double the damage

[golden coral]

To get to a playable point before 3 hours? :p

Honestly, while the growth curves have their fine tuning they need, I much appreciate not having to sit in a bush for 4 hours as stego before I can show myself on plains :p

[thin mantle]

That I'm ok with...the game literally isn't playable before reaching relevant stats you just sit in a bush and hope nothing finds you

[thin mantle]

Subs need a giga nerf but I'm happy juvis aren't useless anymore

[tall bronze]

I get that, yeah. But at the same time, it also just spotlights the game's current issue of "if I can't fight I cannot enjoy the game"

[golden coral]

Speed needs a whack yes, but I think stats otherwise are fine.

[thin mantle]

It's not even that, it's the ability to escape as well

[golden coral]

Oh yeah, but since we're still there due to lack of anything else, we might as well let people fight more often and have some fun, I guess.. :p

[keen plover]

Yeah, omni would then be oppressive to solo players. I just feel like currently, there is no need to herd up, but I guess the premise of stego needing to herd up against 8 omnis might be goofy. Also stego isn't really the best at defending each other

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/davy-jones-for-now-gif-19155526

[thin mantle]

Ig.....idk some of the damage stats for certain animals are very high tho....like a 1ton carno has a bf of 110

[dusky surge]

i think the scuffed audio doesn't help

[thin mantle]

There is something to be said about combat being the mechanic the entire game centralizes around tho

[golden coral]

@keen ploverFor stegos, I would love to see A, a longer sub growth, keep the quick reach .. let's say 2T, then stay between that and 4T for the next few hours, then get the massive boost up. Do the same to deino. Let it reach size to grab pachy/omni quickly, then let it stay betwee that and grabbing carno for most of it's life, then "speed boost" the final growth.

[thin mantle]

Definitely doesn't...but the populations can't be ignored

[tall bronze]

I would like sound and espepsfsepecially calls to have one day of actually working and not being broken in some way.

[thin mantle]

That's sorta the growth curve I'm hoping for with most of the apexes

[golden coral]

And can we work on how to make stegos compete without requiring a carnivore, please. Surely there must be some ways aside from "add x to hunt it", stegos should by no means come in herds or be all that friendly with each other. Also would show how good or bad (most likely bad) the mirror match is and maybe encourage more ways for stego to fight and maybe even get food at that.

[keen plover]

I'd make it equivalent. To grab a omni, you should have taken more time to grow than it imo. This thing can currently grab an omni in 30 minutes which is frankly unfair.

[tall bronze]

I was gonna say 😛 Aren't mirror matches usually considered some of the worst fights in the game?

[thin mantle]

I don't even really disagree but at the same time...that's lunges fault for being such a dogwater mechanic

[keen plover]

Even then, it sucks to be grabbed so ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I remember being grabbed by a visually smaller deino and it made no sense to me

[thin mantle]

Teno being the noteable exception....teno v teno is the best matchup in the game and has been for over a year

[tall bronze]

Grabbed by Deino

Me:

[keen plover]

That thing just picked me up when it looked tiny

[thin mantle]

Getting grabbed just fills me with nothing but apathy

[golden coral]

Exactly. Not only is stego, like kentro and maybe anky, terrible for communal defense (unlike the hadrosaurs and ceratopsids). But also, it's an apex, or might be. They should never come in numbers, we don't want groups of gigas or rexes or trikes, do we? I don't see anky or stego coming in more than pairs either, and I don't believe they ever should. And I do think that any apex pair should be off limits to anything but another apex pair, whereas a solo apex could maybe be huntable by a full pack of omnis, at the cost of most of their pack preferably (they'll have an entire mid tier roster and "large" tier to hunt as well, no need to go for the absolute apexes really).

[keen plover]

And you know you're screwed since they have infinite stam at that size lol

[golden coral]

Ah, okay, I've mostly heard of it going fast :p

[dusky surge]

weird thing to throw in, but i genuinely believe that the juvi stam needs to wear off faster and start you off with less bonus stam. Maybe 2x stam, not 5x or whatever it is we have atm that allows a juvi carno to marathon charge across an entire plain

I reckon once you reach sub-adult, you have normal stam like everyone else, since you get the bonus speed

[thin mantle]

Mhm, juvis shouldn't come with prebuilt V8 nitros

ideally

[tall bronze]

I made a suggestion for that once actually

Massive stamina capacity? Stinky. Excellent stam regeneration? FRAGRANT.

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/the-rock-smell-wwe-gif-15916777

[golden coral]

Yeah, I was thinking about an hour for both stego and deino to get to playable status. Deino can remain smaller generally, because lunge go brrr. But I do think it's fair to let them reach 1T quickly so they can hunt and grab stuff that comes to drink, since well, that's what they do. Or should do, not run around on land yoinking things and running back to water with them... :p

[keen plover]

Fair. I can agree with that

[dusky surge]

remember the baby omnis that kept pouncing you over and over again. Now imagine them with 3x stam regen and quickly realise the possible issue here

[golden coral]

We really need to do more teno fights. They're just so fun xD

[thin mantle]

I have a hard time pairing deino and "fairness" into the same statement given how balance irrelevant lunge is....

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/steve-harvey-broken-ohno-facepalm-ohshit-gif-4838471

[thin mantle]

Mhm, the only matchup not decimated by U6 xD

[thin mantle]

Just make bucking off something 1/100th your weight kill it :D

but you're right :(

[hasty coyote]

just make them immediately fall off after the first tick, rather than hitting 0, then falling off. They wont get back on after the first time

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/pbr-bull-riding-gif-20796978

[golden coral]

I know, but you do get what I mean. Much as I agree that deino is an issue, I still think it's okay to let them be "playable" as well. And I think starting them at omni/pachy grab and then keeping them between that and full grown carno grab is reasonable. Just need to adjust their stamina on land and all that as well.

[thin mantle]

Oh certainly....I'm just in a constant state of depression over it's existence and it seeps into most statements I make surrounding it :D
I still want them to be playable....kinda

[dusky surge]

what's sad about teno is that it remains the most balanced and fair animal, but it's become so power-crept that it's falling behind. It's by far the most fair and fun fight for omnis, because it's not insanely tuned to obliterate your entire pack. I would put teno as a solid A-Tier, carno, stego, deino and pachy are all S or SS tiers, just far outclassing it

[golden coral]

I just want both stego and deino to get to playable status quick, but then stay there for most of their growth, so they have that gauntlet to go through. And if they do make it, then they can quickly reach full adult and get all their power that comes with it.

[keen plover]

With that, I can agree.

[dusky surge]

The issue with teno is not that it's underpowered, but its competition is STUPID

[tall bronze]

STINKY

[golden coral]

Teno is still the best designed critter yes. Everyone else needs to be put on the same level. It's not about power itself, but about the entirety of how the critter plays honestly.

[thin mantle]

It's too mechanically/combatively complicated for the rest of the roster....everything relies on single input win buttons rn....except it...which is great! But awful

It means teno is too good for the rest of the roster in the best possible way

[hasty coyote]

(I'm still advocating for teno having super armor on tail slam)

[dusky surge]

Nerf pachy's punching up
Nerf carno's ability to chargespam animals nearly its own size to death with knockdowns
Deino is deino, IDK what to tell you
Honestly keep stego as is because nerfing it means buffing deino and that cannot happen

[tall bronze]

I Deino what to tell you

[dusky surge]

I'd rather it actually just not get horribly stunned as it much

[thin mantle]

I just want pachy's stuns to be necessarily tied to fractures, and carno to get it's CC just....removed...

[dusky surge]

Pachy's stun threshhold NEEDS to go down

Carno SHOULD NOT be knocking down tenos with charge

[thin mantle]

Charge shouldn't stun with how mobile it is rn....even with a hitbox fix

at least teno sized animals

[dusky surge]

New carno charge is a godsend and actually makes carno doing what the hell it's supposed to do, but it can't be knocking down animals at the weight it does

[thin mantle]

But even then I think an argument can be made for carno just not knocking down anything because it makes their engagements more interesting

[dusky surge]

Stagger is fine, but knockdown? Absurd

[hasty coyote]

yall, again, pachy kinda NEEDS those stuns at the start of the fight to actually get the fractures, or it gets run down because losing +1/3 of your health and bleed go BRRRR

[thin mantle]

Ehh....if it disables or even remotely effects attacks no....just movement? sure

[tall bronze]

I want stagger to be a stagger since it's called stagger and actually stagger things and not stun them because that's not staggering something if you stun them STAGGERING THEM WOULD BE

[dusky surge]

You can fracture a carno on first hit with enough precision

[thin mantle]

also pachy's travel in hordes

[dusky surge]

Fracture = stagger and inability to actually effectively chase down the pachy

[thin mantle]

The double or triple fracture in a single combo is real

[tall bronze]

Do not say that word

[keen plover]

It needs it only against carno. If left be, this creature will quite literally oppress every other playable in that size range. It's unfun as a stego or teno in that size range. If a herd of pachys truly wanted to, they would wipe out every teno herd with ease

[hasty coyote]

You can fracture the carno on the first hit regardless, the issue is all they have to do is face towards you, and you can't get a leg fracture (the one you generally need)

[thin mantle]

Gangs...squads...murders...

[tall bronze]

Pach of Pachys

[dusky surge]

Body fracture is more than enough now

Reduce carno's running stam to 20 seconds, leave

Head fracture also means it just can't properly track you down and does pathetic damage

[thin mantle]

The first fix would be to travel in a group, and if you lack one stick near trees until you find them...ideally....then also make it so carno's charge stuns...NOT STAGGERS...it when hitting an obstacle

This is a comically easy strat on gateway btw

Because obstacles are everywhere and open spaces are few and far between

[dusky surge]

Gateway has so many things to flee to

Gateway fun :)

[tall bronze]

;-;

[thin mantle]

It'd be a good idea to perceive balance in the context of gateway from now on

[tall bronze]

How are the plains?

[dusky surge]

Ironically, it does obstacles 2x better than Spiro. None of those stupid-ass fallen logs making forests a nightmare

[thin mantle]

Alarmingly rocky, some of those pebbles just need to be removed or the games understanding of gravity needs to change

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

There's also little logs to hide in in swamps, cycads to run through and lose larger animals

[thin mantle]

No more invisible walls at random :D

[dusky surge]

That sounds more like arid tbh, which is not super ideal for carno in my experience. The plains I find are open and empty, very good for carno hunts

[hasty coyote]

which, again, is why I want 2 changes to be made
A: give teno super armor on tail slam and maybe kick, so even if the pachy hits it or whatever stunning animal hits it, the attack still goes off.
B: Make the stun immuity timer scale exponentially after the 3rd to 5th stun. Essentially, the timer would go from something like 4 secs, to 5, 6, 10, 20, 30, unable to be stunned with each subsequent stun. This would apply to most stuns (especially future dinos that also rely on stuns and fractures) and would end after combat (prob like 2 mins or so after being hit)

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

True true....I guess I haven't established the terminology good enough for me yet

[dusky surge]

Arid is where the rocks are, brown grass, lots of cliffs and hills since it's high up. Most plains I find are less bushy than spiro's, have a decent level of AI and would be wonderlands for hunting carnos

[thin mantle]

Still those tiny pebbles need a hard looking into

Cuz they will make you one with the sky if your toes so much as graze them

[hasty coyote]

except both those ideas are awful
A: you can't force a dino to herd up just to survive something that is faster, i can send you my full explanation on why that is horrible if you want
B: pachy is a plains animal, thats like telling carno to hide in the forest

[keen plover]

Stun immunity timer has one problem. Leg fractures do not heal while moving. So pachys could quite literally follow you. Delaying your death. Also doesn't help that when a pachy lands that first fracture on you as a teno (they're small tiers, so they aren't too loud). You'll still lose.

[dusky surge]

isn't pachy a coastal animal?

oranges and coconuts are both coasts

agave is the only thing in plains

[thin mantle]

A: You wouldn't be, treeline viability still exists.
B: pachy is coastal

Hence coconuts

[hasty coyote]

orange is coastal/plains

[tall bronze]

Coashtul Pakshy

[keen plover]

Good luck with a stun immunity timer as teno when the pachy has literally nuked all your stamina.

[thin mantle]

Regardless carno is one of the only things that will really ever threaten pachy...I don't mind it being severely disadvantaged in a 1v1

[dusky surge]

I do think pachy would work MUCH better in the arid region. High up, plenty of rocks to climb, bushes to hide in and an already pre-existing paranoia of leg fractures

[thin mantle]

4 slams and you die :D

[tall bronze]

Just the brilliance of the character menu

Radish: "I spawn in North West Plains!"
Me: disappointingly staring at radish in the Southern Swamp

[hasty coyote]

pachy is coastal plains. agave is plains, oranges are coastal/plains, and cocos are coastal.

[dusky surge]

If pachy can consistently stagger carno, it can also do it to teno, neither animals deserve to have this happen

[thin mantle]

Ok, so why must it have a viable 1v1 with carno despite being a plains animal....I don't understand that...get the body or leg frac and escape to the trees, until a carno spots you feel free to explore the plains

[dusky surge]

Pachy punching up as much as it does is a fundamental flaw in design

[golden coral]

I think you might have to up the stun immunity immediately after a full fracture or something, otherwise the pachy can still just.. take it's time, no?

[dusky surge]

Even get the head frac, reduced damage, horrid eyesight

[thin mantle]

Can't track

[golden coral]

Why is pachy coastal anyway?

[thin mantle]

Like sure omni is technically a plains animal as well...doesn't mean it should be advantaged when facing a carno in said plains

[golden coral]

What part of pachy looks like it belongs at the beach? :p

[dusky surge]

Fracture = stagger, reduced ability to hunt. If they continue to pursue, hit them again and fracture harder. Then again. If they don't give up, they won't be able to catch up regardless

[thin mantle]

arbitrary niche assignment mostly, for the coconuts I'd imagine

[dusky surge]

yea, coconuts

[tall bronze]

What if migration brings it away from the cocos

[dusky surge]

It probably will

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

It'll bring it in many places, and come back to coconuts eventually

[golden coral]

Alright. I find it a bit strange honestly. I think pachy would work well in something like gateway highlands, probably better than teno honestly. (I still want a more.. island hopping/river semiaquatic teno, not just stay near lakes).

And yes, deino is dumb, but deino is dumb anyway. xD

[thin mantle]

Lakes are bizarre for teno

Actually anything being aquatic is bizarre with deino in the game

[golden coral]

I still wish teno was more swamp animal, but alas.

[thin mantle]

You'll universally have a better chance at survival staying on land

[keen plover]

Also on Gateway, plains aren't as common as they are on spiro. I doubt carno is going to perform that well on that map anyways. Jungles, coast and highlands. Pachy will be fine

[tall bronze]

Diving
Teno
NOTAPERK
Please
Yay c:

[thin mantle]

Yeah just make teno dive ffs

[tall bronze]

Make it proper semi-aquatic herbivore we only have o n e

[thin mantle]

Not that it works with deino existing but yknow

[golden coral]

@thin mantleYou could up teno oxygen and less stamina drain when lunged. Just make it so you can't just grab and drown but have to actively attack them as well, and maybe up their swim speed and agility a touch too, so they can kind of.. juke a deino?

[golden coral]

Cycads! Bane of carnos xD

[tall bronze]

I can't imagine a Teno juking a D e i n o without it looking very very odd 😮

[thin mantle]

Any engagement a teno has with a deino will ultimately come down to it's mechanical inability to kill the teno unless it can....it's just an engagement I simply don't want to exist

[thin mantle]

BOB lurdu dodge

[dusky surge]

Teno already has the best oxygen, stam drain, swim speed of any existing land animal

[tall bronze]

I do not know what that looks like and I am afraid

[golden coral]

Maybe not, just wishful thinking from me. I just love the idea of a proper semiaquatic teno :p

[tall bronze]

I fully support semi-'quatic Tentosore.

[keen plover]

even the swamps

[hasty coyote]

could make leg fractures heal while standing, plus teno can tank 1 hit without being fractured, so if they ambush, then just play defensively. You can protect your head and tail slam at the same time, which is a good advantage. Then land 1 tail slam to drop that pachy to half hp and kick it to either kill it, or leave it at 1 hp. If theres like 4+ v 1, then its like omnis, not too much you can do.

as for the leg fracture thing, they can make it heal while standing still, but not while running or walking.

[golden coral]

I know, I was more so thinking if teno were made to be more in rivers/islandhopping and stuff, it might need it to survive deinos.

[golden coral]

Swamp maze!

[dusky surge]

"ah yes, let me just heal my leg fracture off while standing, please be patient so we can have a fair fight pachy :)"

[golden coral]

Turns the corner following a teno, runs into a stego instead :p

[dusky surge]

you're dead before you have the fracture heal against a pachy

[thin mantle]

Imagine an ignanodon shooting out of the water like a flying fish on roids

[hasty coyote]

because like every animal, it has to be able to run or fight. Pachy is in the weird case where it does both, it has to fracture and run. If you make pachy unable to get its fractures and get out, its just a bad animal.

[tall bronze]

[fear]

[keen plover]

The issue is that pachys can even do that in the first place. Teno should not be losing to something 1/3 of its size that is also faster than it.

[thin mantle]

Ok, so stick near the treeline, problem solved you can both run and fight

[dusky surge]

Teno should not be HARD COUNTERED by something 1/3rd it's size and faster than it

[tall bronze]

Grab Pachy's head and twist it

[thin mantle]

Wait until you can be more confident in your numbers to go walking in the only environment with a predator that can kill you

[hasty coyote]

if you have 2 minutes of stun immunity, then you can heal it before the pachy can stun you again, if it comes too early, trade a hit, that pachy will lose.

[dusky surge]

2 minutes????

[keen plover]

3x stamina cost on attacks

[dusky surge]

im sorry, what kind of stupid balancing factor is this

[thin mantle]

You only have 4 attacks before you die with a body frac

[keen plover]

Stun immunity timer increasing

[dusky surge]

i hate that idea

[keen plover]

Was the premise

Imo, it only prolongs the fight and may even be worse

[dusky surge]

its a poorly-conveyed, extremely unintuitive system that punishes you for assuming your attacks will be consistet

[thin mantle]

24% stam per kick

[golden coral]

Looking at teno front limbs, it probably could do that :p

[tall bronze]

GRAB AND T W I S T

[hasty coyote]

then how would yall make pachy be able to fracture and run while not able to just bully things to death? and not have pachy be unviable

[thin mantle]

It's delayed inevitability with zero visual tells...we'd have to introduce icons into the UI that gave you stat info on the target for this not to be just...lying...to the player

Which is terrible

[golden coral]

How effective is a head fracture from a tap on a carno?

[dusky surge]

Fracture = stagger is a more realistic, fair and interesting approach than "I can stagger you, but only once every moon cycle, for if i attack too soon, i shall perish"

[golden coral]

Does that even do anything?

[keen plover]

How about this. Rather than having it where 10 creatures are directly affected because pachy needs to defend against 1 PLAYABLE. We make it so that pachy actually avoids carno.

[thin mantle]

Staggers only apply on fractures

[thin mantle]

Wow great idea

[tall bronze]

I still want the head slam to be a combo tool

[dusky surge]

Too simple, pachy has to fell every animal it shares an ecosystem with, regardless of where that creature is

[thin mantle]

Including it's one and only actual predator

[hasty coyote]

if you mean a bite from carno, then its still like 89 damage, enough to make you bleed and be easy to track. And good luck getting that on the first hit since its literally above your hitbox until you get a body fracture

[thin mantle]

Carno's bleed needs to essentially not exist..that's another change I'd make

It has no business bleeding anything out

[hasty coyote]

if pachy has the ability to, then yeah, but its slower and less maneuverable than omni, and even they have difficulties dodging carno

[dusky surge]

Literally, having staggers on fracture means that leg fractures on falls are more realistic, pachy gets punished for over-aggression and hubris, teno can play the goddamn game and pachy remains viable as a solo animal, but still presents a threat in herds

[hasty coyote]

as long as the damage does literally 1 bleed damage, its enough to track

[keen plover]

You technically don't even need to dodge carno right now. You just tap ram to cancel charge

[dusky surge]

Increase turn radius, remove staggers on animals over 2x its size, fractures = staggers

Done

Also nerf charge hitbox (obviously)

[thin mantle]

If you're escaping into the forest or any significantly obstacled area the carno is asking for a broken skeleton if it follows you

[tall bronze]

Tracking in itself is also just poorly done

[thin mantle]

Tracking is kinda just lame...I kinda hate how much UI handholding goes along with it

Feels so off

[keen plover]

Even then, it's still poorly done right now

[tall bronze]

I hate the scent UI immensely

[keen plover]

Like even the UI handholding is bad

[thin mantle]

Oh no disagreements there

[tall bronze]

I get why it's there but I tremendously hope they attempt VFX based stuff again

[thin mantle]

I dislike every element of scent in this game I don't think any of it is very good

[tall bronze]

I miss being able to smell where something is on the ground nearby instead of waiting for some dumb icon to shift away and try to gauge "wait, am I next to it? am I close? WHEREISIT"

[hasty coyote]

I'm still not entirely sold on pachy being essentially forced to dodge a carno for about 20 seconds straight if you only get a body fracture.
(and increasing the turn radius would make omnis cry more, which is partially a good thing tho lol)

[thin mantle]

Stick by a treeline or bring a group and you won't have to

[keen plover]

Bad matchups exist where a creature can both be faster and stronger than you. The benefit that pachy has when compared to any other creature with a bad matchup is that it can break the bones of its bad matchup.

[dusky surge]

Pachy hard counters omni, they can cope

[tall bronze]

Reminds me of the Hypno quote

[thin mantle]

There are unique ways of balancing animals outside of the conventional speed/power ratio...tho they are in the minority they absolutely exist

[hasty coyote]

again, plains/coastal animal. The plains on gateway don't just have trees right next to them like on spiro either. there's literally NOTHING THERE, maybe a bush every 100 meters

[keen plover]

The idea of a creature being both able to run or fight a creature is location dependent. I don't expect small tiers to survive in the open with carno. A solo one at least.

[thin mantle]

Not sure why that matters in the slightest, bring a group or stick near the treeline trying to find dietary spawns closer to them

[golden coral]

No I meant if you tap ram a carno on head, what happens to the carno?

[keen plover]

Also, iirc, we're getting more diet plants with Gateway so agave might not even be a pachy diet.

[thin mantle]

Omni is also a plains animal and even without the busted hitbox carno rolls it WAY harder than pachy in a 1v1

[thin mantle]

It gets stunned, not enough damage to break tho

[keen plover]

So pachy may truly have no business in the plains.

[tall bronze]

Agave might not even be in plains in the first place considering it was meant to be an arid plant

[keen plover]

Yeah

That as well

[hasty coyote]

here then, my reasons on why being forced to have a group to be viable is awful: (aka, I'm too lazy to type it all out again)#balance-feedback message

[thin mantle]

But you're not, stick near the treeline and you're fine

[hasty coyote]

nothing, only the pachy gets stunned

[keen plover]

Pachy can thrive everywhere else. Jungles, highlands, coast and even the redwoods in the future. It just shouldn't be near the plains. Or at least solo.

[thin mantle]

Rap I don't understand why pachy must be viable solo in all environments

[hasty coyote]

because one of them is literally its intended environment

[tall bronze]

I might not be though come Gateway 😮

[hasty coyote]

thats like saying carno should always hide in the forests in fear of roaming omni megapacks

[tall bronze]

Agave was intended to spawn in the arid biome, Spiro didn't have that so it was plains instead, Gateway has arid

[thin mantle]

And stego is on omnis diet, that doesn't mean omni is meant to solo stego....same applies to pachy, and AGAIN, stick near the treeline and scope out closer spawns to said treeline and you're avoiding the entire issue all together

[hasty coyote]

agave doent spawn in the arid on there though, its in the plains

[keen plover]

It used to say arid / grasslands

Back in update 4

Also, diet spawns aren't completed with current gateway tbf

[hasty coyote]

except omni can survive not eating a stego, pachy can't survive if a carno so much as sees it existing more than 100m from a forest or rock.

[thin mantle]

Pachy can also survive not eating agave....

[golden coral]

What if we made head fractures easier to get? So pachy would have an easier time just smacking a carno coming at it? Or would that make it too easy for pachy to follow up?

[dusky surge]

It already has a REALLY easy time lol

[thin mantle]

It's already very easy

I don't think I've had a carno v pachy fight in U6 where I haven't fractured it's head

so far

[hasty coyote]

maybe, but that would require a lot of the hitboxes to be changed, since pachy generally needs a body fracture first to be on eye level

[golden coral]

Okay okay, just an idea. I don't know, Rap here is concerned and I'm just taking that into account.

xD

[dusky surge]

Let's do the math here, 500/175 makes it require 3 hits (to the body) to kill a pachy. To the head, it takes 4 hits, since the damage is reduced. Given the head is fractured, double either these numbers because of the 50% damage reduction to the bite.

Let's increase the agility of pachy, allow it to dodge a little better. Good, now when a carno charges, it can move out the way, or if it messes up a ram, it can quickly turn to run away, reducing potential damage. Given it takes 3/4 hits for a carno to kill pachy, ideally, we want pachy to be taking 1-2 hits on a failed ram, so if it fails twice, it probably dies. However, with its increase turn radius, it can easily duke a carno for a good while (especially a body fractured or head fractured one, who struggles to keep up and damage). And, if it DOES land these fracturing hits, the stagger makes the hit a free hit and allows the pachy to flee. Wonderful, a dynamic animal that is even BETTER at bullying smalls, but now has to be cautious around a predator that almost dwarfs it by 4 times.

And can't bully a herbivore over 3x its own size that minds its own business, because eventually it will run out of stuns to dish out, and the said herbi actually gets a chance to land a hit

[golden coral]

So, just one question, when does it stagger/not stagger then?

[keen plover]

So an even better anti - omni, has to fear carno and no bullying teno sized creatures. Nice.

[dusky surge]

I want a universal mechanic where a fracture staggers

You fall down a cliff, you get staggered

[golden coral]

Oh, so no stagger until the fracture happens? And no stagger afterwards since you're already fractured, unless you get a fracture on another part of the body?

[dusky surge]

Pachy's RAM can only stagger animals 2x its size or lower, but fractures always stagger universally

[golden coral]

Yeah, so normal ram on teno does not stagger, but the hit that gives you fracture also staggers? So if you need two hits to fracture, the first is dangerous, the second one is not?

Sorry, it's late, please clarify :p

I am being dumber than usual right now I think xD

[hasty coyote]

I'd have to see this in game, I still see solo pachy just getting run down because it missed one ram, got bit, and only got a body fracture.

[dusky surge]

So the fact his head can fracture means he can also stagger carno, albeit less frequently, and only 3 times

[dusky surge]

Body fractures are great atm tho, and with my proposed turn buff, duking is a no-brain game

Also it means that the moment you have two pachies, you are instantly scarier

[hasty coyote]

as I said, I'd have to see it in game, because juking a carno for 20 seconds straight sounds difficult. Plus, then the carno just folows the blood trail and you have to start the whole song and dance over again

and if pachy gets too good mobility, whats the advantage of playing dryo? Why not play the dino that trades some slight mobility for 10x better offence?

[keen plover]

Honestly, seems more of dryo issue. I'd just make it the best nocturnal herbi

[golden coral]

Currently testing carno vs pachy, I have to say body fracture is pretty much "you can't run anymore". The drain is harsh.

[keen plover]

Having a dryo around a herd would then be useful at night.

Not even for that, it would still be fun to play at night. You could quite literally play at any time and be fine.

[golden coral]

Nocturnal dryo would be really fun yes.

[keen plover]

I also think that smaller herbis like dryo should have more diet options. So they aren't limited in location like the bigger creatures

I honestly think that it would be fun for it to have some overlap with the current herbis. I guess people could argue that it's too easy? but think that's fine for a 30 minute grow. Would be a neat beginner creature and generally laid back playable to pick.

[golden coral]

I've had similar thoughts. Letting dryo be fine with everyone elses diets so they can be found anywhere.

[obtuse ocean]

Anyone know what this means ?

[dusky surge]

apex strong

[obtuse ocean]

ahh

[frail bobcat]

@analog mirage very based take. Rare #balance-feedback moment

[analog mirage]

Actual good isle balance idea what?

[frail bobcat]

The only thing I dislike rn, is pachy recovery and its dominance over teno, except for the points you made

[dusky surge]

i actually very much dislike the idea of nerfing carno charge turn, rather than more pressing issues

[hollow canyon]

^

[dusky surge]

i like the charge actually being effective at hunting smalls

[hollow canyon]

Just fix the hitbox

and see where that takes us

I can assure you the hitbox is bugged, I tested it and it registers roughly a yard or maybe half of a yard to the side

[dusky surge]

i hate how people see the charge being good at hunting smalls and being "this is all wrong!". Don't get me wrong, the hitbox is SO stupid, but this new charge actually lets carno fulfil the niche it was built for since the beginning

[hollow canyon]

Agreed

Also I disagree about Dryo

[dusky surge]

I do like slower dryo tbh, it needs more to compensate tho

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't touch its dodge stamina cost(well maybe decrease it a bit) or speed, just pump up its stamina pool

give it some 4 minutes of runtime

[dusky surge]

Burrows, NV, less stam per dodge, some/all of the above, would make it SO much cooler

[hollow canyon]

and leave it with a 10% stam cost

it would mean it loses 24 seconds of runtime per dodge

which means it can't spam those

but it would still need to run for a very long time to get randown by a Utah

well maybe decrease it to 5%

but I'd rather leave it as it is, increase the stamina pool and see where that takes us

[frail bobcat]

The turn needs to be somewhere inbetween now and then. Look at it, the turn screws over tenos so much because they cant dodge it.

[dusky surge]

I think they should make it that it can't knockdown teno sized animals, don't nerf the turn

50% of weight or below = knockdown
100% of weight or below = stagger

[hollow canyon]

yea and if you charge something bigger than yourself you end up being the one that gets staggered

[mellow zenith]

does Omni still get knockdown when pouncing into wall/tree ?

[hollow canyon]

yes I believe so

If you want to say that Carno should to - I kind of disagree but at the same time it wouldn't make much of a difference

[mellow zenith]

Cause if that the case, a charging carnno should get the same treatment. im not saying a knockdown but something to punish reckless use of the ram

[hollow canyon]

nah

because pounce is not like the charge

you need to be much more incompetent to pounce a tree/rock

than to charge into them

the reason for that is that if you pounce an animal you stop on it, the charge makes you move past it

it's that simple

[mellow zenith]

i see your point and i disagree, i still think carno charging into tree/wall should get a little punish for it

[hollow canyon]

so if you pounce an animal that's up against a rock you don't get punished because you automatically stop, if you charge it however you will move past it and stun yourself on the rock

[mellow zenith]

but thats my opinion ofc

[hollow canyon]

and if charge automatically stopped you the moment you CC your target that would actually be a buff to it

since you wouldn't have to stop and move back to the target you hit

but I mean - I guess you could make it like that

[mellow zenith]

if you successfully charge something (there is an animation for it) you don't

[hollow canyon]

how? if you successfully charge something would you magically get immunity to getting stunned by the rock that's behind it?

[mellow zenith]

im only talking about charge that clearly hit no target

[hollow canyon]

also I'm actually not sure if the pounce still stuns you if you pounce a tree atm

I'd have to check that

[mellow zenith]

that's why i asked

[hollow canyon]

that might've been removed now that I think about it or at least so I've heard

I wouldn't know cause I don't normally pounce trees

[mellow zenith]

yeah like, when you charge and hit a target, the charge ends. Not being in charge = no stun/stagger

when i say the charge end i mean the actual ability, i know you keep moving

this way player can use the environment has a counter to a charging carno. Its a pretty common tactics in video game agaisnt charging enemies to stun them, by dodging at the last second, making them bumping in the wall.

[analog mirage]

Sure. But how many players are gonna be ramming trees?

[mellow zenith]

And in those scenario, if you get hit by the charging enemy, even tho it continue in the wall, it isn't stun, because you failed at dodging the charge

[analog mirage]

Like the chance is just super unlikely

Maybe if someone was standing next to a wall sure but that is a very rare case

[hollow canyon]

you still charge after you hit the target, that's literally not how this ability works

you have to manually stop this

[mellow zenith]

oh my bad then

in short when charging at the wall you can just use the wall to stop without any repercussion, NEAT

[barren tiger]

RELEASE CERATASURS ALREADY!!

[somber sphinx]

Yes let’s release an unfinished playable

[barren tiger]

At this point I will play as a t posed legacy version dino too.😂

https://tenor.com/view/loof-and-timmy-trex-dinosaur-tree-rex-tree-gif-14438748

[golden coral]

@hasty coyoteI think working on stamina first might be the best, as you pointed out, other stats can be needed to be a fun playable, but none of them need to be able to keep going forever to be viable and fun.

[hasty coyote]

I still think carno should have its speed turned down personally, but whatever works. I just pointed out a way to fix them

[keen plover]

I think that smaller carnos should run slower than full adults and have better agility to out manoeuvre them. They can have the stamina and bulk, just have the ability to be caught by their older counterparts

[golden coral]

Yeah, some of the speeds need to be adjusted as well.

Heh, forest life as carno while growing, then moving out to the plains when you start losing agility and need to rely more on your charge to keep up with things?

[keen plover]

Yeah. Generally that. I dislike them being immortal the moment they get to big juvi. Has always been an issue with carno. Just make them faster than omni, but not faster than full adults. If a carno sees them, they have a chance of hunting them to lower the population.

I hope they play around with the agility depending on growth size. Would also work on smaller stegos that turn painfully slow

So smaller carnos could be better at hunting the more agile game. Like dryo. While full adults can hunt omni packs, pachy herds etc.

[golden coral]

Small stegos still having the old turn radius xD But yes, agility should be a matter for some at least, and carno is a good example of that, going from living in more forested areas and competing with the things in there, and then moving out as general agility goes down and charge becomes more important since charge should be much less good with lots of things in the way to run into obviously. Also gives a bit of a different experience as you grow, which would be nice.

[hasty coyote]

maybe, but that kinda impedes on rugops

[golden coral]

Is that a bad thing though? Having rugops and smaller carnos be rivals and compete? Similar to how I can see smaller omnis climb and fight with herreras in the trees.

[keen plover]

I guess? But it's only a part of a growth cycle. That's far better than making a creature just a worst version of the full adult.

[golden coral]

Since the carno will inevitably grow, you can't stay around there. If you want to play in the forest you go rugops, or in the trees, you go herrera. But you can temporarily enjoy that playstyle and maybe you'll find you want to remain and change playable at that.

Would also add that rugops can then cull carnos so you'd get that.

[keen plover]

Allo also seems to live in the forest going by devblog comments and concept art. So it will probably have a chance at competing with both

Technically, rugops won't have to worry about smaller carnos only

Even then, I'd make it where rugops is more agile still. It seems to be the most agile carnivore in the game

[golden coral]

I don't really see grown allos doing well in forests honestly, but maybe Evrima one is more agile and doesn't suffer from atrocious decceleration xD

[keen plover]

Smaller ones will be competing *

Like juvi - sub allos will also do well in the forest.

[golden coral]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Just like herrera would be better than an omni in the trees, rugops would still be better than a small carno in there, but it's more so letting the omni and carno live slightly differently as they grow and interact with other things than what they will as adults.

[keen plover]

Like having overlap is fine

As long as the playables that live there have the advantage

[ionic dove]

fix omni please, i shouldnt have to die to a boar as 70% omni, i pounced the boar over 5 times and nothing happened, I then continued walking in circles with him trying to bite him from behind but for some reason the boar can bite from his ass, so i'm begging you too fix the omni and its strength it is absolutely useless now.

[keen plover]

Ain't no way you lost to a boar as a 70% omni

[ionic dove]

i pounced him over 5 times

[keen plover]

So I just tested it as a 70% omni and not only does an omni pin the boar, it kills it in 2 full stamina pounces

[hollow canyon]

yea a 70% omni just devours a bear

[ionic dove]

so why did i have too pounce 5 times? bug where they have unlimited health never heard of

[hollow canyon]

I kill them every time I grow a Utah at around 70% growth since that's when carbs start running out

[hollow canyon]

my first suspicion would be the server going down

in that case you were dealing no damage

but at the same time your stam wouldn't be running out and the server would go offline shortly after

so idk

[ionic dove]

it was bleeding and my stam was up and down

[hollow canyon]

hmmm weird

[dusky surge]

@orchid prairie Pachy absolutely should not have an even one on one with omni

That would mean it's an exceptionally weak animal

(that fails at the niche it was built to do)

pachy is built to be a bully to omnis, a single omni is meant to get steamrolled

[orchid prairie]

@dusky surge both parties should face a massive risk when confronting one another even though pachy is said to be a bully. bullies can be taken out by the right player

[hollow canyon]

50/50 isn't a massive risk, that'd massively favour the Utah

It's the faster out of the two animals and chooses whether the engagement happens in the first place

[orchid prairie]

but remember if the pachy gets 1 knock down that will potentially leg break essentially sealing the utahs fate and even if it doesnt leg break it will do a ton of dmg to utah regardless

[bright oasis]

omni is also a pack hunter, so ideally you wouldn't want to fight something 1v1 thats both stronger and heavier than you, even by that small amount.

[hasty coyote]

key word is "potentially"
omni can also pounce a pachy and drop it to 1/3 bleed if the pachy stays still, even more if the pachy is playing too aggressive. It literally only takes 2 omnis, on opposite sides. Then both charge at the same time, the pachy can only deal with 1 of you, and that 1 can dodge. The second hits the pounce and runs off. Just repeat this like 3-4 times, and after the second pounce that pachy is screwed because stam regen goes down the drain. If you manage to bait enough after that, pachy easily runs out of stam and can just be face tanked. Or the pachy will play much more conservatively, and thus be an easier target.

Omni fights are battles of attrition and the omnis get stronger and stronger as the fight goes on. While pachy loves head-on fights and will easily destroy you if you decide to trade hit for hit. So omni needs to play smart to deal with pachy. And generally the smart play is to leave it be unless you can outnumber it to not fight head-on.

[alpine sleet]

omnis are faster than the pachys, so they can choose when to fight and even run away if they want (unless their leg broke), it makes sense for pachy to win most 1v1

[orchid prairie]

if omni just gets its agility back then we will be even stevens

[frail bobcat]

@karmic lynx remove which changes? All of them?

[hasty coyote]

The pachy changes were pretty good overall. Body fracture buff may have been a bit to harsh though

[frail bobcat]

The only thing that pachy needs now is the higher ram recovery

[hasty coyote]

And a rework on stuns

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[golden coral]

@karmic lynx Considering the prior patch had worse balance issues than the current, I don't know how you can possibly think we should go back there. Feedback is read, but that does not mean every feedback is useful. There was no skill involved in prior patch, at the very least no more than there currently is. Not to mention that prior patch had matchups not work out like they should. And well, numbers are a part of balancing, if done the right way, so that's not really strange. And I wouldn't be so sure the majority of active/experienced players (whatever that really means, i have far more hours than you do if you want to measure by that...) would agree with you. And even if they would, that does not mean it's a good take, majority does not mean accuracy after all.

Also far as I know from statistics, the game is doing fine. People are still playing and having fun, the official servers seem to be full more often than not, so this whole idea that this patch is somehow terrible is just wrong. Also they do have QA and ST for balancing, as well as the intention to do a full balance pass. But it would maybe do you well to realize that this is a survival game, not a fighting game, and will most likely be balanced as such. If you look at the feedback, sure, at times things look this way or that, but do keep in mind that well, a few hundred, if even that, is by no means the majority of the playerbase. More often than not, it is a vocal minority, and while their feedback is as valid as anyone elses, it'd be a bit wrong to refer to them as the majority opinion.

[distant torrent]

i have no idea what you’re on about. last update was more balanced than this update because it came with messed up hit boxes. there’s a reason why I’ve mostly only seen people play carno, deino, and stego now. I along with other people have stopped playing because of it. everything else gets steam rolled and it’s a waste of time to grow

[hasty coyote]

last patch omni was insanely overtuned, now pachy and carno are overtuned. There isnt really much of a difference

[golden coral]

Looking at mechanics, playables, how well they functioned (omni too good, carno not good enough, and so on), it was not more balanced. Carno charge wasn't really good for chasing things, omni pounce/omni in general was way too lethal for what it should be, pachy struggled with omni instead of countering it like it's been said to do. At least some of those are more or less going in the right direction now, much as carno and pachy is a bit overtuned. Pachy cc issues vs carno and teno were still there last patch, deino has been given more damage on lunge to be slightly better vs stego in 1v1 so that, much as I dislike it as stego player, is still a step in the right direction as well. Oh and bucking is now a proper counter, making omnis have to actually wear the target out before killing it (and with the lack of bucking when out of stamina, now you can do that properly), also a step in the right direction.

If all you look at is purely some kind of combat/fighting balance, I could see why you'd think the prior patch might be better, but that's not all there is to balancing, nor should it be, since we are supposedly getting a survival game, not a fighting game.

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Though the issues aren't just "overtuned", but also the whole how something is meant to play and how things are generally meant to react to others and all that.

[distant torrent]

I’m sorry but if you died to utahs as a carno or teno or even a stego you were a skill issue (except pachy. pachy was dogwater in utah vs pachy). carno could easily run away from utahs if the carno was outnumbered and didn’t have the jump on the utahs. teno could run a pounced utah against a tree and knock it off then tail slam or kick it while it was in the recovering animation. stego could simply camp a rock, tree, or mud pit. the only thing utah needed was a bleed nerf, not the new buck which drains its stam in less than a second. and if you couldn’t chase things with carno charge, then you’re again a skill issue, which explains why you’re a stego player

and why the main suggestion has more likes than dislikes :)

[frail bobcat]

Bucking was way too undertuned. It only delayed your death and if you have to rely on terrain to fight something, its a issue

But bucking is to strong rn

[golden coral]

Not really, considering that none of them required any actual skill, aside from teno. Which is still the only playable that actually demands something from the player. But with magnetic pounce, useless bucking, and so on, killing stuff as omni didn't require much at all. And if you just refer to terrain, then you've already not understood the point of mechanics countering mechanics. The tree/cliff meta, while viable, is neither good nor fun, and certainly not related to skill.

The new bucking was absolutely neccesary, since bucking should be the primary counter, not terrain. Mechanic for mechanic, it's that simple really. This also makes the fights more engaging and allows both sides to go back and forth, as opposed to "camp x" and wait until the other side gets bored. And charge was quite useless against anyone paying attention. If you got hit by a charge from a carno, that was very much an issue on your end, simple as that.

Hilariously enough, stego would require more skill than omni as it were. Because at least with stego, positioning and timing mattered, since you have less ability to recover from a miss, unlike with omni being agile and fast, thus allowing you to correct any mistake you might make much easier (and making it much harder to make a mistake at that, since you kind of have to try to mess up as omni or dryo).

[distant torrent]

yea it is

[golden coral]

It's not. It's just the chunk drain that's an issue.

[frail bobcat]

A gradual decrease and a drain that is a bit weaker than it is rn

[hasty coyote]

even bucking last patch as a carno would drop your bleed by 20% with good food and water, if you ran around with low food and water, then you would lose about half your bleed from a single pounce

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because like I said, majority does not mean accuracy. And I think it's clear that most of those likes are from a bunch of "omni mains" as it were. (If you want to make it a point that I'm a stego main, I can do the same you know). Not that I think being a main is a relevant argument, nor should it be.

[distant torrent]

that’s what it’s meant by bucking is too strong. it’s the drain

[frail bobcat]

Two bucks and the carno was food

[golden coral]

The thing is, there's a difference in the drain being too much, and how it drains. The chunk drain means it's hard to react to, and you go from full to empty in one tick. If it worked like sprint drain, a consistent but fast drain, it'd be much easier to react to, and to measure your own stamina for when to dismount.

As such, I'd like for them to fix the chunk so it drains normally before looking at if bucking is overtuned, because it might very well be the case that if it drains like normal, it works better. Just like carno charge working better if we fix the hitbox issues it currently has.

[distant torrent]

It should still drain less stamina. having a full second from full to empty is dogwater

[golden coral]

I don't know, maybe, possibly for carno since it's the only playable that can actually pressure an omni (at least now with useful charge). For everyone else, I'd keep the higher drain since the omnis have full control of those engagements, and can bait attacks and all. It should absolutely be a neccesity for the omni pack to drain the targets stamina before being able to sucessfully pounce. It's an attrition hunter, it should take time and require teamwork.

Though we could also really do with something better when it comes to bucking and pounce, like a choice between attack and brace, or something to make both sides interact more.

But fundamentally, bucking needs to be a "get off right now", not a "I can still inflict damage/bleed".

[frail bobcat]

Yeah, because you realise how boring pounce as a mechanic is once you pounce a pig

[distant torrent]

draining stam isn’t going to happen when rocks and trees are a thing to camp. the only thing you can really hope to drain is their water for tenos at least

[golden coral]

And prior patch, even with bucking, you took sufficient damage/bleed to be in trouble. Which is why the meta was to just stand next to a cliff. Since that was overall much better.

[distant torrent]

it’s still the meta sadly

[golden coral]

Tap pouncing and you can still bait attacks. Or trick the prey into leaving the defensible position, and so on. There's ways, even if someone stands next to something. But this is partially a biome issue, and partially a roster issue.

I'm not happy with terring being the main counter for pounce, any more than it being the main counter for deino. It does not make for engaging or interesting encounters at all.

But at least now bucking is worth using, and viable as a defense, rather than a last resort.

[distant torrent]

doesn’t work unless the prey is a literal skill issue. never seen a teno get clapped like that in-game before

[golden coral]

Have you actually tried those things? Because I've not really seen many omnis even attempt to trick their prey at all.

Most of the time I see omnis push something to stand next to cliff, then just pace around, as if that's somehow going to make the prey stop trying to defend itself.

[distant torrent]

never tried myself but I’ve seen it and those omnis get tail slapped into the back rooms but that was before the update. played the new update for a few days then quit when I realized how dogwater the changes and hit boxes were

[hasty coyote]

last update I literally watched a teno do everything it possibly could to deal with a pack of 3 omnis, hiding in rocks so it was a funnel, tail slamming when we came near, and bucking us into rocks. It only got 1 person because they got too cocky. With the new buck, that fight would have been incredibly difficult as it should have been

[golden coral]

Well, since Nappn mentioned testing, I know QA and some ST tested omni vs teno, and teno dies quite well from what they found out. So unless it's an actually good teno (which is really rare because teno is a very demanding playable), it shouldn't be that tricky unless the omnis operate on one braincell for the entire pack.

@distant torrentThe hitbox on charge is an issue yes, but I think that's the only one that's bad. Don't think any of the others were changed really.

[hasty coyote]

pachy actually has good hit detection now, so that could be a hitbox change

[golden coral]

I think that's just hit detection, not a change in the hitbox, from what I was told.

Though not sure how that works to be honest, so you could be right.

[distant torrent]

in pachy vs teno, pachy can tap ram the tip of the teno’s tail and stun it. I know because I was playing teno with other people while pachys hunted us lol

[golden coral]

That sounds like an issue, last I heard stuns/stagger/knockdown is not supposed to work on tail hits. And I've seen carno charge omni tails and the omni is fine.

Not sure what would cause it, but I don't think it's intended that pachy can just hit a tailtip and get effects like that.

Though it wouldn't save teno anyway, teno just dies to pachy, this patch and last one :p

[distant torrent]

carno can hit omni and teno’s tail and stun it too. again, happened to me and people I was playing with

[hasty coyote]

nah, thats a mix of 2 issues
1: latency, that pachy hit you on its side, and it seems pachy has the "favor the shooter" mentality on ram
2: placebo rams, if you barely charge up the ram before releasing, it won't look like a charged ram to the other players, but it is one.

I can tell you, tap rams have a MUCH lower stun range than charged rams

[distant torrent]

never happened before the update. I clapped a duo of two pachies trying to kill me before the update

[frail bobcat]

As what?

[distant torrent]

teno, mb

[hasty coyote]

It never happened before this update because pachy had a hitbox change that makes it much more reliable for the pachy's side (last patch half my rams would just phase through people)

[golden coral]

Those must be the worst pachies around then if they were two vs you as teno. :p

[dawn falcon]

Another day, another post wanting to revert back to ambusher carno

https://tenor.com/view/wow-shocker-childish-gambino-donald-gif-5634946

[golden coral]

Not only that, but wanting to revert everything, which is just terrible all around.

[thin mantle]

Gotta love the apparent concreteness of the meta 👍

[frail bobcat]

The point with "we had huge issues and those went unchanged for months" is valid. But the "remove the changes" is stupid

[golden coral]

? :D

[thin mantle]

Oh just that play style adjustments for some playables is apparently “not allowed” because it renders certain playables disadvantaged in certain environments where they absolutely should be

Like Omni being weaker in plains than in the firest

[dusky surge]

Or Pachy not being allowed to slaughter carnos and tenos

its just odd that people assume that "skill = kills" on small animals, no matter the size difference of the matchup is kinda ridiculous

and the fact that they see no fundamental issue in the fact that they could get away with slaughtering these larger animals for so long is absurd

carno is the best designed it's ever been (despite some EGREGIOUS issues being present), teno is balanced, issue is that everything else is overtuned, pachy is finally not omni fodder, but also can take its fight easily to beat the hell out of animals it shouldn't even touch, omni is FINE, but its entire competition has some kind of buff that makes it VERY hard for it to fight them, so on

we are very close to a very balanced experience, if the right changes are made

[keen plover]

Yeah. People honestly need to realise that some creatures aren't equal. Carno > Omni in strength. It's meant to hunt these guys. This update has finally allowed carno to have control over the fight (yes it could run away, but I mean it doesn't have to fear as much as it did before against a few omnis). Omni's now run from carnos. Unless they have a decent sized pack. Before, it was easy to avoid carnos. Which made pairs of omnis hunt them.
Heck even solo players could try and nuke half your blood pool. (They'd lose of course). Now is carno overtuned with charge hitbox? Yes. But the relationship between the two now is fine.

[karmic lynx]

@frail bobcat not completely all but i would say every single one except utahs missed pounce annimation and also higher stam drain when bucked but not as it is now, than also pachys bigger bloodpool can stay everything else was working perfectly before imo

[golden coral]

Pachy did not get a bigger bloodpool, it got a minor bleed resistance. Most of everything before wasn't good, and most certainly not "perfect" by any means.

Charge was quite bad for use against any target that knew of you, making carno struggle to do it's job. Magnetic pounce was all kinds of bad and made omni outright brainless to use (especially together with the insane bleed on pounce, compounded by the bad bucking). Bucking was more likely to be detrimental to use than not. Pachy could still stun"lock" teno and carno solo (which needs fixing still). Pachy needed some bleed resistance or other fix, since it bled out quite easily, even when using buck (and it had a good buck from what I recall). All in all, there were lots of issues in the prior patch that needed fixing or otherwise adjustments.

Bucking is useful (which is good since it should be the primary counter and bucking should mean "get off right now"), though it needs adjustments in how the drain works to give the omni a better chance to react. Charge is useful (now you can actually use it in a chase and thus run down the smaller game you're meant to hunt), though it needs adjustments in hitbox and some potential changes in damage and CC ability. Pachy hits reliably (which is good since pachy should rely on fractures to handle things, be it to finish them off or run away), though it needs a change in CC so it can't stunlock carnos and tenos and actually have to run away after getting fractures. Omni is fine, it still does lethal bleed (though I am uncertain if the nerf to damage was needed) and tap pouncing plus the new no bucking without stam means baiting and teamwork is now more important. Dryo needs a much lower stam cost on dodge, and might need a little bit of a speed increase as well. Teno is fine, since nothing really happened to it (no damage change at least, not sure on hitbox). Ptera is fine, hypsi is fine, stego is fine. Deino is still "op" and you're better off just not interacting with it at all, which most certainly need a rework because current lunge has no actual counterplay (add a quick movement option to stop eating/drinking and take a step aside so you can at least react to incoming danger could be a start). Buck/pounce could also do with a rework to create some form of interaction for both sides aside from click/hold RMB and click/hold E.

[dusky surge]

I still reckon a brace system would work wonders

[golden coral]

Brace system for pounce, and maybe similar abilities. Quick react for lunge. At least give us something to work with.

[dusky surge]

Brace = half stam drain and half stam damage taken, but no damage dealt

Would mean you can force bucks to drain opponent stam, or you can deal lots of bleed

But would only really matter in a group situation

[golden coral]

Mostly it means it can become a bit of a "fight" in that the target wants to wait until the omnis attack to buck to throw them off fast and hard, and they want to pretend to attack but stop so the bucker wastes stam for little to no effect.

Add a passive minimal drain so the omnis can't just hang on forever, and it might work out. At the very least it'd be interesting to try something more than what we currently have.

[hollow canyon]

Just bizarre feedback all around, especially that part about steam statistics

the game got up to 4.7k players during the last month

that's a big improvement over the past few months that followed after U5 was released back in July

and those numbers just outclass U4 altogether by a longshot

"December 2021 3,061.7 "
"Last 30 Days 4,778.2 "

Yea totally a good take

As for the accusations of how long we have to wait for this or that being broken - this game is effectively in a pre-alpha stage

so yes there will be broken stuff in it, the game isn't per se necessarily meant to be enjoyable at the moment, it's just the simple truth

the devs don't care about catering to the current playerbase of Evrima, that much has been clear for a long time, they are completely focused on what they want to achieve eventually and if we get some enjoyment out of the game during the development process that's just a bonus, if we don't - they probably wouldn't care as long as the end product that they're aiming for is good