balance-feedback-discussion

[dawn falcon]

I personally think Carno should keep its charge turn speed. But fix the hitbox and decrease the damage of the charge so Carno focuses on biting and running you down.
I’d also axe bleed for it almost completely to aid in the “raw damage, pursuit predator” playstyle.

[golden coral]

Where was the teno fighting them? :D

[frail bobcat]

open plains

[golden coral]

Hm. Using any terrain?

[dawn falcon]

Carnotaurus being an ambush predator just makes me cringe inside. It doesn’t make sense at all.

[frail bobcat]

no

[thin mantle]

Plus charge is essentially nullified in the forest

[golden coral]

Then I have to wonder what those omnis were doing. They were in control of that fight...

[thin mantle]

Good on it that’s either a god tier teno or the omnis we’re just….comically bad

[frail bobcat]

two died because they fell off after and then they called of the hunt

[frail bobcat]

the omnis were bad

[hasty coyote]

That is something that worries me as well, because it could either end with pachy being made into fat dryo that can only fight omnis and below, or it just slowly beats you to death with stuns and fractures.

That is why I advocate for exponential stun immunity. The first like 3-4 stuns would keep the normal immunity, so it does not affect stuff like teno or other brawlers that use stuns much. But after that, the stun immunity lasts longer and longer, until the victim basically becomes immune to stuns. So pachy could break and run from carno just the same, but dies if it stays and fights. However, a dumb carno that runs into a herd of like 5 pachies will still die because they can layer multiple hits into 1 stun.

[thin mantle]

Seems about right, most are currently….U5 did a number on the expected skill floor for that animal

[frail bobcat]

yes

I feel it aswell

I am not the best omni th

[alpine sleet]

well that's true but the problem is they can spam it against tenos and they are supposed to be able to stand against carnos , if its just 1 of them at least, right?

[keen plover]

Teno beats carno in the 1 v 1. You need to constantly face your tail towards the carno though

[frail bobcat]

but I am improving

[alpine sleet]

i mean its not impossible to win against carnos as tenos, i win most of the times but idk

[keen plover]

The teno requires much more skill sadly

[frail bobcat]

and carno "haha, RMB go brr"

[golden coral]

It could work, but I'd like it to be properly tested. Maybe a mix, both making carno less capable of the tracking (honestly that should be a thing, carno is an open plains visual predator, or should be at least), and exponential stun in some way. But I have to admit, I'm still not the biggest fan of the stuns, so if we can find some way to make CC better in general, that'd be nice too.

[keen plover]

Yeah, it's unfun, but what else can you do as either party? Without charge, carno is unfun to turn with.

[alpine sleet]

alr ill try doing that next time

[golden coral]

Sounds more like they were not used to the new situation. Because a teno should be pretty baitable, especially with the slam they like to use, + tap pouncing to bait out bucks.

[keen plover]

If you see 2 carnos as a teno, then gg.

[frail bobcat]

they all fell of pouncing because of buck

[golden coral]

That's not sad. It's good, more critters should be like teno.

[frail bobcat]

they were lacking coordination and timing

[hasty coyote]

exactly, if there is a better solution that doesnt end with pachy getting the short end of the stick, I'm down for it all the same.

[keen plover]

I know, it's just the difference in effort between the two

[golden coral]

Yes, I figured, they were not used to the new bucking. Tap pouncing would have allowed them to be fine even with new buck from what I know.

[frail bobcat]

tap pouncing is effective

[golden coral]

Far as I know, quick pounces are still doable, even with the harsh bucking, so that's how you'd do it, plus the normal baiting of attacks and all.

[keen plover]

Let the creature waste its stamina, so bait attacks early. After that, just use your pounce in groups and you have a very good chance of winning

[golden coral]

True. Teno is the only playable that's well designed on the part of requiring some form of skill, or even having something more than one thing to do to learn in the first place :p

I still want more things for my beloved stego xD

@frail bobcatYou need to raise your own omni pack and teach them the new ways!

[frail bobcat]

I hate other omnis (except my friends), they are annoying

I would rather play a pack of three and be limited in my prey than playing in a big random pack

[dawn falcon]

I mean, I don’t blame them. If they try and test, they’re risking all their hard work of growing just to try and get good. Lol
The issue is, we don’t have any proper NPE to teach them how to play.

[golden coral]

Okay yes, that's a very fair sentiment. I felt the same as teno way back when. Much rather be on my own or with Para and Oyo than have three times the numbers of random tenos.

[dawn falcon]

They spawn in a world, learn the hard way trying to learn, and are deincentivized to go any further because they lose all their progress from one mistake.

[frail bobcat]

playing with friends is just better

[dawn falcon]

So we need actual NPE in this game to teach them without risking too much progress, then allow them to test it once they’re ready.

Evolve tutorials are one example

[golden coral]

@frail bobcatThough with three of you, you could probably take a teno if you planned it out properly. Possibly even a carno (though that'd be rough, but a teno you have the control in the engagement).

As long as you don't run into one of the few really good tenos at least, then you might be in for some trouble :p

[dawn falcon]

https://youtu.be/SYg0NrHcpuU
This would be a great way to teach players

[golden coral]

Not neccesarily friends, just people that know how to go about playing their chosen playable correctly.

[hasty coyote]

that and a sandbox mode to actually learn the muscle memory

[dawn falcon]

God, sandbox would be great.

[golden coral]

@dawn falconWe really could use sandbox yes.

[dawn falcon]

They could just give us automatic admin without the ban and kick options.

[golden coral]

But alas, no sandbox for us, for some reason.

[dawn falcon]

And then boom, sandbox

I’d also give the sandbox players the option to despawn any corpses within a specific radius.

So if you want to keep performance from plummeting, everyone would have the option to do so.

[tall bronze]

I loved those tutorials!

[dawn falcon]

Something about Dondi voicing the “evolve style” tutorials would be fire

[tall bronze]

I absolutely adored the human tutorial and how the narrator was so nonchalant about it all. I can picture Dondi doing something similar.

[dawn falcon]

A comedic tutorial with Dondi voiceover sounds great

“Don’t be this idiot.”
camera pans to dumb Utah wasting all its stamina while latched

[tall bronze]

[golden coral]

@undone slateReverting it all back would be a terrible idea. Most of the changes were needed, especially to turn carno into the kind of hunter it should be. Do the hitbox need fixing and the rest some finetuning? Yes. Did the charge need improvements? Absolutely, it was quite bad before this patch.

[median swan]

but it seems they went too far with the buff, the whole server is populated by carnos because it's OP

[golden coral]

Last I heard it's full of deinos, not carnos. But honestly, what with the new sound change, I've yet to meet any large number of anything, so hard to say. But it's not so much the buffs, rather the "bug" with the charge hitbox, and similar issues. As well as a needed adjustment to how stamina drains in order to let the omni react properly.

[pseudo spruce]

Deinos and carnos

Deinos there has always been tons ever since they first got released update 3

A lot of times it is carnos dominating the land carnivores in very large numbers, so much to the point cannibalising becomes their main source of food

even back in update 3 I still never saw this many keep in mind I took a break shortly after update 4 so I dont know if it stayed the same onwards of update 4, but it makes it quite annoying as a Omni player when you mainly get carnos especially with the weird hitboxes and people are saying they have been statistically buffed which I think is entirely messed up they were already very balanced in my opinion back in update 3/4

[hollow canyon]

the whole server is populated by Deinos, Carnos are overtuned atm for sure but that's more so a result of them not having enough time to do a proper balance pass on everything I believe

people were very much aware that its charge hitbox is waaaay too forgiving when the ST had its embargo lifted

but the update had to be released since the year was ending and the devs were going on their break

they will most certainly fix that

Carno being as it is right now is definitely not intentional

[dusky surge]

@thin mantle One of the only "list" style balance feedback's I've basically universally agreed with

[hollow canyon]

The only thing I disagree with is Dryo - I don't think it needs a speed buff, it simply needs far more runtime

[thin mantle]

That list is a result of my sheer frustration with hyperbole in feedback

[hollow canyon]

and possibly the dodge to be less costly

[dusky surge]

i do agree with that

[hollow canyon]

yea the exaggeration is real

people just spam nonsense in those feedback channels, I swear I hope the devs don't read this garbage

[dusky surge]

i somewhat like the slower dryo, but it needs more stam and agility, as well as dodge to not be so painful to use

hell, throw on great NV to solidify itself a unique niche

[hollow canyon]

I feel like my braincells want to commit unalive every time I loon at the feedback channels

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's the lessor of the options that I gave which is why it's second of the two...I don't even really think stam should be something dryo should be paying much attention to during chases considering how focused they have to be on timing their dodges now that everything can catch up to them

[hollow canyon]

ye, all the good ideas

[thin mantle]

The "inertia bug" being fixed would be nice....

[hollow canyon]

ikr it having 120 seconds of runtime with a -12 seconds for every dodge it performs is a joke

[hollow canyon]

or just remove the goddamn inertia from the game altogether

this mechanic literally brings nothing but makes balance harder seemingly at random

[dusky surge]

just making dryo faster i feel defeats the point. New dryo would be a lot more exhilarating, especially with the ability to see better in the dark and essentially outstam any predator it may have

[thin mantle]

At least for the smaller animals at the very least...not that I wouldn't mind it not existing at all but if consolations need to be made at least make the agility of the animals that necessitate high agility....well...agile

[keen plover]

Yeah it's somewhat more scary, rather than boring and easy

[hollow canyon]

I think it should be just removed, the only thing this mechanic does is make balancing things out harder

[thin mantle]

I don't really feel any...fear..with it now because I know that if I'm not surrounded by bushes I've basically already died...I need stakes to generate any sort of investment that would lead to fear...dryo just doesn't give you the ability to do that unless you delude tourself into it

[hollow canyon]

you think their turn rate is x and y and then when the update launches it turns out the values are actually z and v

because the goddamn inertia changes things up

[thin mantle]

I'd prolly have to think on the total ramifications of it more but generally I'm so on board with axing it

[keen plover]

Also ptera turn radius nerf was a bad idea. It makes it unfun to move around as. They already fixed the 30 fps bug. At most a damage cap was needed so it couldn't hurt larger creatures

[hollow canyon]

we have different turn rates while running, walking and standing for a reason

if something turns too well while running... just... decrease its running turn rate?

Instead of slapping on a random mechanic that decreases the turn rate of everything with broad strokes

I feel like inertia just makes the devs' lives harder

there have been constant complaints about the agility of small creatures every since inertia was introduced

and honestly everything in this game just turns like utter garbage

it doesn't feel natural

idk if someone was tinkering with the turn rates and did an oopsie or if it's the "inertia strikes again" scenario

[keen plover]

But who even complained about the previous turns anyway

[thin mantle]

Especially when put into the context of how well animals around their size irl can turn...they all feel like freight trains

[hollow canyon]

I don't think anyone complained about them

they weren't supposed to be changed

[thin mantle]

Basically nobody

[keen plover]

I genuinely enjoyed carno movement previously. Now it's boring . Same with omni

[hollow canyon]

admittedly I think that Utah plays the same as it did in my experience

Carno definitely turns worse while running but this isn't inertia

it was actually nerfed last update

Deino however is just a one big "???"

[thin mantle]

I don't mind it in the effort to make charge a useful tool against targets carno's actually supposed to be hunting

[hollow canyon]

this thing couldn't turn its way out of a wet paper bag

[keen plover]

Charge is unfun tbh.

[thin mantle]

True....

[hollow canyon]

I honestly think there should be a global turn rate buff to everything

just outright buff EVERYTHING

[keen plover]

Baiting attacks and then getting bites was what I enjoyed about carno. I guess they don't want that

[hollow canyon]

everything feels slow and cumbersome while turning for absolutely no reason

[thin mantle]

Tbf that's kinda the thing carno is supposed to suck at...but without anything else to really do that I don't mind that it could...

[keen plover]

It's just a bit too easy with carno, but I guess that's the design

[thin mantle]

We also exclusively have things in game that are either hard countered by carno or hard counter carno

[hollow canyon]

more of the former

[thin mantle]

Like a completed carno is about how I'd imagine current carno is with 3 notable tweaks

[hollow canyon]

far more of the former

[thin mantle]

Definitely

[keen plover]

I'll probs wait till we get allo then for some actually difficult hunts.

[thin mantle]

"but omni is just so hard and unviable rn"

[keen plover]

Omni is nice and all, but I don't want to have a huge pack to hunt something large. While I'm assuming 2 - 3 allos will have a lot of things they can hunt, in terms of large game

[thin mantle]

Para.....maybe trike?
Maybe sauropods but I doubt only 2-3 would cut it...
What am I missing...

[keen plover]

Probs whatever is in between. Some of the pseudo apexes

[thin mantle]

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are acro and rhino

Sucho is immortal for obvious reasons

[keen plover]

Yeah, unless they go out onto land

[thin mantle]

Yeah but that's borderline analogous to "stego can hunt deino"

[keen plover]

True

[thin mantle]

Like...yes if it's horribly disadvantaged itself sure

[keen plover]

But then again, it isn't as limited as deino

[thin mantle]

True...deino is quite literally immortal

[hollow canyon]

I don't think 2-3 Allos will have a good time against the very big animals

I also think their group limit will be larger than 3-4 which seems to be what most people state for them

Carnos get up to 3 and they aren't meant to be pack-animals at all

Allos are supposed to be pack animals

[keen plover]

4-5?

[hollow canyon]

they will most certainly have higher numbers

I don't know maybe 5 but who knows

[dusky surge]

i disagree, i think it was a needed change

[hollow canyon]

I generally don't think that the size is the main thing that dictates the group numbers

[keen plover]

Rather what they hunt?

Depends what they want allo to do in terms of large game

[hollow canyon]

more so how the devs see the specific playable

if Allo is meant to be a pack hunter then it might get higher numbers

idk how high exactly

but I wouldn't be surprised with some 5-6

[dusky surge]

but it still loses to stego, even though it could easily bite off a stego head!!! buff deino to make it able to kill stegos consistently

[keen plover]

I'd be fine if that was something they couldn't manage if they didn't hunt large game

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it would be manageable at all without hunting large game

they literally wouldn't be able to survive by killing smaller animals

[keen plover]

Eh, depends on the future food values.

I could see them live off similar sized creatures

[hollow canyon]

yea I mean they'd need some serious changes for them to have a chance of survival

[keen plover]

Like maia

Although I guess maia is large

[thin mantle]

Yes! Along this new line of realism balancing carno and omni should do the same...it'd be so REALISTIC >:D

[golden coral]

@keen ploverIf you're looking for something more of a "bait and bite", alberto might be that later on (at least if you're looking for that size range too). Carno would probably not fit that since we're stuck wit the charge idea. But if alberto just goes crunch, it might fit better there. As for the ptera turn nerf, I tried it a bit and I can't say it's terrible. Takes a bit to get used to, but it's not too bad, and I think there was a decent reason for that particular change at least.

[keen plover]

Yeah, probs alberto in that sense

[thin mantle]

I don't mind the ptera aerial nerf but purely because I've always wanted ptera's turn rate at higher speeds to be VERY wide with slow speeds allowing tighter turns....
It also just feels better to not turn like a hummingbird when you're the size of an 8th grader

[dusky surge]

realism lovers when you tell them that a thagomizer through the brain would realistically also instantly obliterate a deinosuchus

[dusky surge]

agreed

[keen plover]

But the turn on ptera is a bit sad. I get why people like and dislike the change.

I wanted the change because they could kill carnos, but that was mainly due to the bug

[golden coral]

You can turn better with using the "brake" can't you?

[keen plover]

The brake does help with turning, since it slows you down

[thin mantle]

I don't think it received the appropriate counterbalance....there's no way to turn tighter now despite the sprinting and gliding turn rates being better....your Z should be a bit tighter

[dusky surge]

i wanted the 45kg animal to actually turn like something with 45kg

also I wanted ptera to have at least a little bit of vulnerability

because the animal was literally ridiculous

[thin mantle]

It could literally fly backwards due to the animations inability to keep up with the turn speed...it was rather hilarious

[keen plover]

That was the bug mainly

[dusky surge]

even without the bug, ptera's turn was still stupid imho

[keen plover]

Fair, but it going from turning to a dime to turning like legacy carno is a big difference

[thin mantle]

Well...no it wasn't a bug that's just how it was implemented

[keen plover]

Exploit or whatever, since locking your fps to 30 made you turn even better

[thin mantle]

Oh that certainly was...but the turning backwards part was entirely irrespective of exploits..that's just how fast it turned

[keen plover]

Oh yeah, it was still fast, but I don't think the current turn is it

But that's just a personal preference I guess.

[thin mantle]

I don't know what strong argument could be made for making it more agile would be tho...like if it's on the basis of enjoyment...I enjoy it much more than the last version...so it's a standoff ig :p

It's especially difficult when ptera has...no threats

[keen plover]

Being able to kill babies better 🥰

[golden coral]

Could maybe up the turn a bit more when using brake?

If that'd make it slightly better?

[golden coral]

Land and run them down! xD

[keen plover]

Although I know a lot of people hate ptera being the baby killer

[golden coral]

Adds to their terror :p

[thin mantle]

I actually think that is a behavior that needs to be mitigated as much as possible...not juvis but there's little to no countermeasures for a swooping ptera on a nest without just killing your offspring

[keen plover]

Baby carnos spawn larger than you

[golden coral]

If people want ptera to be mini quetz, they should have to play like one xD

[golden coral]

Do all babies spawn larger? Which ones would be small enough?

[keen plover]

Omni, pachy

[thin mantle]

Teno gets destroyed by them as well

[keen plover]

Yeah

But those are just fresh spawns, but then again... I guess my ptera take is bad

[golden coral]

@keen ploverI'm not inherently opposed to being able to swoop and nibble at babies btw, but I do like the idea of a ptera landing and just running the poor baby down :p

[keen plover]

I've come to an understanding. Keep ptera as is

Survival game and it's perfect at surviving

[golden coral]

I wouldn't say that. But perhaps if/when we get a way to attack upwards, the turn could be adjusted again.

That way the entire main issue is solved anyway, and even a smaller target could choose to fight back or run and hide.

[thin mantle]

Yeah....but that's sorta necessitating an entire animation set for every animal in the game...some of which physically can't even perform

[calm ibex]

Love how apparently using terrain against ptera is wrong, but against carno its fine, double standards are the best 🤪

[fresh laurel]

Utah mfs:

[frail bobcat]

@zinc mortar if somebody stabs me in my hand multiple, i would bleed out

[zinc mortar]

i metioned bleed. i am talking abaut damage not bleed

[frail bobcat]

If somebody stabs me in my hand, that will hurt me

[zinc mortar]

exactly. but it wouldn't kill you

[frail bobcat]

But I would bleed out after suffering from injury

[golden coral]

That depends entirely on how the terrain is used and so on, there's good and bad reasons for how to use terrain.

[frail bobcat]

Injury = damage

[zinc mortar]

i am not talking abaut bleed. imagine you cannot die from bleed. in that world you wouldn't die from a stab in the hand and because bleed dosen't exist, as i said, you wouldn't die because there aren't any important body parts in the hand

get it now?????

[frail bobcat]

but that would weaken attacks without bleed by a huge amount

[zinc mortar]

yeah. exactly.

[frail bobcat]

yeah, this is why we should not do your suggested change

[zinc mortar]

bro

are you serious? i don't wanna remove bleed lol. that is dump

[frail bobcat]

but you want to remove tail damage

which is a bad idea

[zinc mortar]

why? tell me why?

why is it a bad idea?

[frail bobcat]

this

[zinc mortar]

i don't wanna remove bleed

[frail bobcat]

attacks that inflict no bleed exist too

and it would weaken those by a huge amount

[zinc mortar]

mhm

yes

but it still dosen't tell where is the bad in it

[wispy kite]

@drifting mural
About: #balance-feedback message
Stego cannot hunt down anything. It’s slow. If a stego hunts you down, then it is you fault.

In U5 there was a playable to counter stego, and it was the Utah. Man those hunts were fun. A big group needed to coordinate, and one mistake was a death sentence.

[golden coral]

Not that you needed a big group at all, just a few omnis could do it. And little the stego could do to fight back. Face pounce is what it is after all, and with bucking useless back then, or detrimental more often than not in stegos case, it was basically stand next to cliff or just die.

Aside from that, you can still hunt stegos just the same in this patch, very little, if anything, has changed how that goes.

[azure crescent]

because it allows for coordinated harassment

a group of utahs can nibble at a carno's tail until it slowly gets more and more injured

and it can also be used to provoke people

if you remove tail damage, all of those things disappear

and a lot of combat situations disappear too

also making it do bleed and no damage doesn't even make sense

[median swan]

there should be 2 types of damage then, slash and blunt

[azure crescent]

blunt damage type already exists

blunt damage is the amount of fracture damage done

blunt damage resistance is the amount of blunt damage you can take before being fractured

hence why some animals can be fractured with no stun, or not fractured at all

[median swan]

what's bad about tail damage ?, i prefer it to have more knockback effect but again i don't wanna see a simple dinos backoff i would love to see some dinos knockdown to the ground with some amazing physics which will never happen anytime soon

[azure crescent]

nothing is bad about tail damage lmao

that's what i'm saying

[somber sphinx]

@glass hornet how couId it’s name and stats charge when Utah arrives?

[glass hornet]

no no

i mean, not have changed it in update 6

and then when the new utah comes, change it

cuz rn, omniraptor is kinda useless hahah

[golden coral]

Better to change the name now, since it's meant to be that way anyway.

[golden coral]

It's not useless, it's still quite capable.

[glass hornet]

yeah, but its kinda hard to play, well you know what i meant lol

[golden coral]

Yes, I can understand that it can be tricky to adjust and get used to something new.

[somber sphinx]

Omni is still really strong if you know how to play it, jungle Omni and tap pounce is the new strat until your prey runs out of stam

[hollow canyon]

@drifting mural 3 adult Deinos should murder a Stego with ease, you don't even need 3, that's a total skill issue

also no surprises there, Deino players are the most skill issued group of people in this game

[golden coral]

@brave flickerIt's the carno charge hitbox that's messed up, not the omni.

[hasty coyote]

(ngl, it also looks like a major ping issue)

[golden coral]

Possible. Just wanted to correct that there's, far as I know, nothing wrong with omni hitbox, it's on the carno for being stupid (again!).

[hollow canyon]

it does look like a ping issue Carno's charge has a big hitbox but not THAT big

[thin mantle]

@drifting mural There isn’t a bigger self report in this game than admitting to being afraid of a stego as a deino…first off you have nothing to fear they literally can’t kill you unless you let them considering the ability to dive functionally grants you immunity, and actually that applies to everything when you’re playing deino, with the only exception being other deinos….which also applies to stego but stego is at least capable of being threatened by Omni, and by all other terrestrials during its growth, the same can’t be said for deino.

Second, stego is currently soloable on deino…it was in the last update and only received buffs with U6, 3 deinos would execute a lone stego with zero effort unless they were comically bad at the game, and even then it’s a simple matter of holding W and mashing lmb anywhere on its body with all 3 of you, it’s about as simple as gameplay can get.

Also targeting stego as the “immortal apex that needs nerfs because it has no threats” is so bizarre and ironic when deino exists alongside it, and is a creature obligated to kill other players than simply doing it for the fun of it….on top of being larger and having a far easier time at it

The only period in the game where deinos couldn’t solo stegos on land was immediately following U3.75 and during the U4 stress test iirc…and honestly that’s only two times I can remember deino being disadvantaged, it’s entirely possible deino could still solo because it really hadn’t changed much.

[golden coral]

@sharp shadowYes, because of how the stamina drain works in chunks/ticks, it looks like that.

@dense boughAside from the teno hitbox, what else would there be to keep?

[dense bough]

Carno movement pachy launch so it doesn’t go insanely far, Utah movement

[golden coral]

I meant specifically for teno, since you mentioned "keep everything" next to it? Unless you just meant in general there.

[dense bough]

Damage

[golden coral]

Though I severely disagree with reverting carno, and far as I know, omni movement haven't really changed.

... Damage wasn't changed?

[dense bough]

It does less damage this update

Yes it was,

[golden coral]

Where do you get that from?

Because last I heard, that's competely and utterly wrong.

[dense bough]

Me and bird brain were testing it

It does like 5% less I forget but it’s somewhere around there

[golden coral]

And you're absolutely sure this is the case, and you didn't just mess up somewhere/somehow?

[dense bough]

And yes omnis movement was changed

[dense bough]

Yes,

[golden coral]

Also not what I've been told. Maybe that there is some kind of inertia bug, but no deliberate change.

[dense bough]

Still means it should be reverted back to how it was last update

[golden coral]

Maybe. Last I saw, movement seemed fine.

[dense bough]

Pachy has better movement than Utah lol

This update

[frail bobcat]

The turn of omni feels stiff

[golden coral]

It had before too, or so I've also been told.

[golden coral]

I did some tests with a friend earlier on Scope, they were omni and ran around testing the turn, didn't notice any difference they said. So yeah, I'm still not sure on if there is an issue or not.

But that would still be some kind of bug more likely than not then. Though I am unsure if the current turn is as bad as people make it out to be.

I'm more so confused on peoples insistence that teno damage was changed.

[frail bobcat]

I would just trust experienced players there. Nappn literally stopped playing omni because of the turn bug. Omni is still very agile, but just not as agile as it needs and used to be. Carno and dryo seem to suffer from the same issue

[sonic flame]

Having checked Teno's damage myself, no it was not changed

everything is consistent with what I expected to see, the only inconsistencies is being unable to tell if you struck the body for full damage, or the legs/arms for reduced damage

[golden coral]

I would trust QA over any random player to be honest. And Nappn is quite frankly not someone I would listen to at all.

[sonic flame]

my theory is that people are simply hitting arms/legs and assuming the damage was nerfed, despite htk remaining the same as last patch

[frail bobcat]

In some stuff, I will not listen to him. Bro wants u5 balance to come back, but I am gonna believe the part with the mobility

[golden coral]

I think my issue with the mobility thing is that I agree on the dryo, I felt that too, but at the same time, I can't tell if that's just my feelings, or an actual change. And therein lies the reason I don't trust Nappn or anyone else on it. Because if I can't tell and only "feel", I'm not sure anyone else could do better.

[frail bobcat]

The issue is that nobody has video footage of the turns before u6 so we cant tell

[stiff smelt]

I didn't realize stego hatchlings could break their parents nest so fast. Some people just don't like playing with other people I guess.

[frail bobcat]

But I believe that there is a bug affecting turn and I hope it will get fixed

[sonic flame]

there's been lots of reports of such a thing but testing hasn't given any definitive results

made more complicated since we can't do direct side by side comparisons

[golden coral]

That is an issue indeed. But I trust you do understand why I'm uncertain on the turn issue. I agree that it feels off, but I can't really go by just feeling.

[golden coral]

Yeah, some people are just.. going to be a bother. Sorry that it happened to you.

[frail bobcat]

I just think something has happened because many people feel it

[golden coral]

It is possible, I'm not denying it, and I'm inclined to believe you honestly. It really does seem strange.

I just.. dislike making it a definitive statement I think.

[stiff smelt]

A first for me but I'm not surprised, the only baffling thing is the lengths people will go to disrupt others' experience, in literally anything.

[frail bobcat]

And I just dont believe people would just make up the turn change in order to gain additional mobility for a very mobile playable

[sonic flame]

worth noting, lots of people believing something changed has happened in the past, even without any changes

so again, while there might be a turn bug, we can't actually test it the turns are worse without a side by side comparison

and simply choosing to go with whatever most people are saying without solid evidence would result in, for example, buffing teno's damage, even tho it has remained unchanged

[frail bobcat]

I wont watch this video because not only does this video misspell utah, it even names the playable wrongly. Its called fricking Omniraptor. And it misspells Pachy too

[leaden wagon]

your right lol

[golden coral]

The carno charge hitbox is weird, this is known. Pachys I don't know, I know hit detection was improved in the patch, or something similar. Omni pounce should be fine, it kind of looked like the pounces there were at the very edge of the distance.

[leaden wagon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7QNEm50Ijk

[hasty coyote]

i put the vide on .25 speed and I think I see the issue: you missed by like a millimeter, which I can agree could be a bit too thin, and can feel jarring compared to the magnet pounce previously.
The rest of pachy ramming you are a mix of latency and pachy's ram being more consistent on the pachy's side

[somber sphinx]

Also Jesus the size difference between those two

[hasty coyote]

just perspective I believe

[somber sphinx]

Ye but also fat pachy

[hasty coyote]

pachy is also just bigger than people expect lol

[golden coral]

The pachy is round :p

[somber sphinx]

Yeah I know it’s just on that picture it looks extra fat but perspective I guess

[somber sphinx]

He’s a chunky boy

[wispy kite]

@dense bough
About: #balance-feedback message
Apparently people are happy with op Carno, claiming pachy must be nerfed, so it cannot harm Carno.
Because everyone loves Carno overpopulation and mega packs ruling the servers without anyone capable of challenging them.

[golden coral]

Not really. There are some issues with carno, no doubt. And far as I know, people have not really argued for pachy nerf, more so a rework since it does have some issues with the whole CC thing.

There's a big difference between that and "nerf pachy so it cant harm carno".

[hasty coyote]

also, you can see the pachy miss basically the same thing lol

[wispy kite]

Why does every Carno player expect that they should be able to kill everything. Maybe Carno is simply not supposed to hunt pachys.

[golden coral]

They don't. But carno is designed as small game hunter, and pachy is small game. Quite logical. Also it's been said way back that a pachy that breaks and run, lives. A pachy that breaks and stays to fight, dies. This is not quite how it currently works out, and therein lies the reason pachy needs a look at.

[somber sphinx]

Pachy basically being able to stun lock carno and teno is def a reason it should be looked at

[hasty coyote]

carno is 100% meant to kill pachies, carno is a small game hunter, and pachy is small game. That isnt to say pachy doesnt stand a chance, it definitely will put up a fight, more like it shouldn't be able to easily fight a carno like you can now with stuns. Its more about the issue of, after a leg fracture, the carno is just a punching bag since it can't hit the pachy or run away.
Pachy's issues with stuns also extend to other members of the roster like teno, which pachy can cancel their attacks and remove any counter play from the teno

[wispy kite]

Alright alright. But following your logic, Utah is supposed to hunt in groups and punch upwards the food chain. So Utah supposed to wreck Carno following that logic.

[hasty coyote]

by our same logic, carno should kill omnis since they are small game. However, a large pack of omnis can be a major threat for a carno.

[somber sphinx]

And it still can of it hunts in a pack (which is what it’s supposed to do against things 4x the size)

Use the jungle as your advantage and prioritize tap pounces unroll the carno runs out of stam

[wispy kite]

But do you actually see Utahs hunting Carnos with the current balance? I don’t think so. So the balance is off in favour of Carnos.

[somber sphinx]

Yes Ive seen it, sometimes solo sometimes in a pack

[wispy kite]

Looking at the time to grow and the weight, 2-3 Utahs should be able to kill a Carno. But that currently doesn’t work out.

[golden coral]

And they do, in sufficient numbers. The issue there is that the carno is designed to be good vs them, which would make it a harder target than, let's say allo if we're talking that size. And the same goes for stego, compared to let's say trike.

[somber sphinx]

and carno should def have the favour against Omnis

[wispy kite]

You saw a Utah solo a Carno in U6?

[hasty coyote]

I have seen omnis fight carnos and win against them. though, carno charge does need a smaller hitbox and some tweaks, that I can agree with

[golden coral]

Because most omnis are quite bad players and even worse at adjusting to things.

[somber sphinx]

No, tied to but unsuccessful

[golden coral]

Nah, weight wise, it'd be 4 omnis. Time wise, that's not how you measure that.

[wispy kite]

Same could be said about Carno players in U5, not using charge, but relying on biting and standing still.

[wispy kite]

Why not be time?

[somber sphinx]

Because charge was useless that update

[golden coral]

Charge in u5 was quite useless. Omni in u5 was stupidly op.

[golden coral]

Because you need to separate between the individual time investment.

[wispy kite]

But the Carno population was fine in U5. Packs of 3 were basically still safe.

[somber sphinx]

You could only hit those who didn’t pay attention and if they did see or hear your growl or loud stomps they can just move 3 feet and be fine

[wispy kite]

It don’t Utahs deserve a chance to dodge?

[somber sphinx]

They do but charge was basically useless last update both for ambush and for pursuit

[wispy kite]

I believe you guys make the same mistake Utah mains did. in U5, believing to be right.
There were way too many Utahs back then. And now there are way too many Carnos running around. All of this falls back to balance.

[hasty coyote]

thats not exactly how it works. by that same logic, it would take 17 -18 omnis to kill a deino based on weight, or about 5 compared in time. neither of which will really happen since deino can 1-shot them, has bleed resist so it takes 1/2 damage from bleed, and can just go in water if it ever gets low.

[golden coral]

Packs yes, which should not be the case in this situation vs their prey. Also maybe the population was fine, omni population is probably just fine right now, but that does not say that much about balance issues to be honest.

[somber sphinx]

We agree that there are too many carnos atm and the charge (especially the hit box) is busted

[wispy kite]

Was charge ever meant for pursuit? I don’t think so, it was indeed supposed to be used for ambush, and it was quite effective at that. At least it worked out great for me. Getting pounced was an issue though, because of the high bleed.

[golden coral]

They absolutely do. Pay attention, see the carno, juke the carno. The hitbox is a problem, and the potential inerita/turn bug would also not be helping. The first needs fixing, the second we don't really know about.

[golden coral]

13 omnis for a stego! Sounds good to me :p

[wispy kite]

It in fact speaks a lot about balance issues. People don’t tend to play, knowing they will loose most of the times with their chosen playable.

[somber sphinx]

It didn’t before but it does now, also charge is the most useless ambush mechanic since you need to run to activate it, carno makes a loud growl and stomps its feet that the whole island can hear it which is now how you ambush

[golden coral]

No, but ambush carno is terrible design, so making the charge pursuit is just the reasonable thing to do. A plains based, small game hunter, does not work well with ambush, but it does work with pursuit. And no ,even for ambush the old charge was quite terribly designed. Just look at what makes a good ambusher and you'll see.

[wispy kite]

It took 8 average Utahs in U5 to kill a stego.

[hasty coyote]

I'm not saying the balance this patch is perfect either, changes definitely need to be made. I just disagree with your reasoning behind it, which would promote a major swing in the opposite direction, causing U5 all over again.

[golden coral]

Yes and no, people do tend to play somewhat based on what they like as well. We know some playables are just inherently more popular than others for reasons that isn't neccesarily balance related.

[golden coral]

It did not. It took 2-4 that knew how to face pounce.

[wispy kite]

I said average.

[golden coral]

But that point was more so your argument about weight/time.

[golden coral]

As if there's any other kind :p

[wispy kite]

And if the stego found a rock, then the game ended.

[golden coral]

But if you wanted it based on weight, then 4 omnis matches a carno, 13 matches a stego, which was what I was trying to point out.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because bucking was useless and cliff/tree meta was the only way to defend. Not doing so = you just die.

Not exactly what I would call a fun or interesting engagement.

[wispy kite]

Stego always had got some Utahs, no matter what, some desync, some fps drops and the stego got a one shot. Usually the stego just had to be patient. A good stego never died to a Utah pack in U5, no matter how many and how good the Utahs were.

It was only the new ones, standing in the plains.

[golden coral]

If that's what you truly believe, then we have very different understanding of how that matchup went. Because I entirely disagree, a few bad omnis could kill even a decent stego if it didn't "abuse" terrain as it were. Making argument based on performance is also not really balance related for that matter.

[wispy kite]

Now, without the Utahs, there is nothing challenging the Stegos.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, the plains animal being in the plains. Makes sense I'd say.

[golden coral]

"without" omnis? As if there's no omnis playing at all?

[wispy kite]

As of there aren’t palm trees everywhere.

[wispy kite]

Those few Utahs have yet to make their own experiences with subadult Carnos out turning them. And the mega packs roaming around.

[golden coral]

And I did point out why that kind of engagement/meta was terrible in my opinion. Sure, it worked, it was the only thing that worked, and had little to do with the stego players, or the omni players, skills.

[golden coral]

Sub carnos are a bit overtuned to say the least. As, it seems, are sub deinos and sub stegos for that matter. And I'm sure there's still omnis that will play, even with that. Not as if there wasn't carnos last update despite how comparably bad it was to omni and deino. There's probably also still tenos around, even if they have it even worse.

[wispy kite]

Last update, Carnos were at least still able to take on 4 Utahs, or at least run away thanks to their speed.

Utahs and neither Tenos have that luxery.

When I matched up with 4 Utahs as Carno in U5 I got them all and then died to the bleed.
Now I could probably kill 12 or even more, I just died to Carno Megapacks so far.
There is literally no excuse for the balance changes in U6 in davor of Carno.

[golden coral]

They were not, not if those omnis were even vaguely competent. Run away, possibly, but omnis can follow you for quite a bit.

I've also given you reasons as to why the changes were good, and honestly, it's less outright balance and more turning carno into what it should be and make it good at it's supposed job, and the same with the bucking changes. Do things need fine tuning, absolutely. Are the changes reasonable, yes, yes they are.

[wispy kite]

It’s supposed job literally cleared the server off other species except deino. It’s a game and even though Carno might realistically be more powerful than a Utah pack, or a Utahpack would probably never mess with sich a beast, it’s still a game and an unchallengeable playable is overpowered and game breaking.

I can currently spam charge, as if I am playing fruit ninja.

[golden coral]

I mean, yes. Deino and stego, and arguably teno are not prey. The rest very much is. (charge also needs to lose some CC and damage, it shouldn't just be use that and nothing else preferably, more so use it to set up the kill would be more interesting). And you're right, things need a challenge. But that's a roster issue to be honest.

[golden coral]

I've seen some suggestions for a start cost, like pounce and ram (I believe), which would be fine. As would decreasing the accel a touch again, since it's no longer an ambush tool and therefor don't actually need the "jump" as much.

[wispy kite]

Well, at least we agree, that there is change needed.

[thin mantle]

Charge just needs more limiting factors….hitting a solid object should stun and damage you, it should have a starting cost, and it shouldn’t CC targets over half its size

[golden coral]

Less damage. And I would look at how harsh the stamina drain is on it. Not sure if it can run for too long or not.

[thin mantle]

I wouldn’t mind the current drain if you couldn’t just run into any solid object so players could better utilize terrain against it, as that’s already carnos primary counter

[tall bronze]

I'd like if it was harder to cancel c: Like if you charge and miss, even if you try to stop you still drift and hitting something during that can bonk ye 😛

[hasty coyote]

thats honestly an interesting idea, not 100% sure how it would work in practice tho

[thin mantle]

Ehhh….nah that’s very…idk…post execution…I’d prefer something more tangible during the ability than consequences after it’s been executed even successfully, I don’t want to cripple carnos follow up

[thin mantle]

I’m relatively fine with it but I think it’s a bit too far

[golden coral]

I don't think anyone has ever argued that current balance is perfect, rather far from it. My main arguments have always been that the way the charge and bucking function now is good (tight turn pursuit charge, and bucking being a proper "get off" moment as counter). That does not mean everything is perfect. Current bucking needs to not be drained in chunks for example. If that was fixed, omnis would have much more time to react to the bucking as opposed to the "100-0" chunk drain. The charge hitbox needs some severe work, as well as the whole potential less CC/damage, and so on. It's mostly that people who thinks prior was good and/or wants to just revert stuff, have not quite understood the potential issues we had back then.

[tall bronze]

The way I picture it is if you successfully ram something, you're fine. But if you just keep charging past something, there's like a grace period before you're safe to hit something.....if that makes sense

[golden coral]

Highlands is apparently carno death zone, or so I've heard. xD

[thin mantle]

Perfect

[tall bronze]

That's the black mountainous region, right?

[golden coral]

Plenty of rocks to run off, and cycads to hide in. :p

[thin mantle]

I’m not a fan of the rocks tho

Those are just bad, I’m ok if they trip you up but launching you off the map is…nah

[golden coral]

I can see the issues, but I also believe people in part have to blame themselves for going fast in a dangerous terrain :p

Not as if the concept of falling to your death is new after all.

[tall bronze]

Tripping would be nice instead of stratosphering yourself

[golden coral]

Bye bye goes the carno :D

[hasty coyote]

yeah the new map's verticality is going to show a lot of holes in the way this game functions vertically

I have ran up a hill perfectly fine, then ran down it, slipped off, and died

[tall bronze]

One thing I've realized that I am concerned about....

"Uh oh, there might be Herreras. Let me look up to s-"
Camera: shoves itself into the ground and/or your dino's legs

Looking up isn't easy 😛

[thin mantle]

Gravity in this game is….uggh

[tall bronze]

Though then again, they have mentioned that pseudo-first person so that may help 😮

[hasty coyote]

that too

[hasty coyote]

not just gravity, many attacks just don't work on any type of sloped ground, like pachy ram.

[golden coral]

Those are going to be an issue yes. Hopefully that gets worked on as well in the balance pass.

[hasty coyote]

I hope so

[alpine plover]

So what's the solution to omni now

[golden coral]

In what way?

[alpine plover]

I'm hearing the agility and bucking drain nulls it

[tall bronze]

I keep seeing talk of a balance pass. Is there a specific pass planned or is that just referring to the combat tests Dondi mentioned? 😮

[golden coral]

Ah. The agility is up for a bit of a debate, since there's claims and counterclaims on if things have changed or if it's just a feeling. Lots of people will tell you there's been some kind of nerf, or bug, but I can't provide evidence and no actual change have been stated to have been done far as I know. (but I could have missed something, keep that in mind). For bucking, it's massively improved in the drain, so now it's actually useful as a counter, to more or less degree, and you no longer have to rely on standing next to a tree or rock. However, the new drain has in turn cased an issue in that since bucking drains stamina in chunks, instead of just faster like sprinting, it means omnis now struggle with reacting in time, since the stamina kind of goes from 100-0 in one sudden "tick". This will hopefully be changed so the drain behaves more like sprint, and should then give omnis much better ability to see and react to the targets bucking.

[golden coral]

I mean the planned combat tests that Dondi has mentioned.

[alpine plover]

I see, I wouldn't be against the bucking drain if there was counter measures or tactics to continue pressure
After all, omni is an endurance predator

Though yet still, I am dissapointed in that bucking is still a single press button, rather than an actual mobile mechanic

[hasty coyote]

you can always tap pounce or bite to keep the target bleeding

[golden coral]

As am I. I am pleased that bucking now works as a counter of sorts, so it's not just "stand next to this or that, or just... die". But I most certainly would like a proper mechanic, for pounce, grapple, lunge and so on (or in the case of lunge, give a quick step movement to dodge, like how you can stand up quickly).

[alpine plover]

Part of why tail riding, was so exciting on the raptors part in legacy combat.
Though it wasn't for the one being ridden
I feel a legitimate more balanced recreation mechanic of that scenario would server both parties well

[golden coral]

Well, tap pouncing works quite well to inflict some bleed/damage and "bait" a buck as it were. That plus baiting in general and wearing the target down seems to be how to go about it. Less using pounces outright, more so harassing until target is low on stam. Especially since you can not buck with no stam, it will just end when you're out of stam.

[somber sphinx]

Idk if it works but the camera has changed so if you zoom in at max it’s almost like first person and I think you can see what’s over you

[tall bronze]

[alpine plover]

Tap pounces remedy the situation but don't resolve it interestingly enough

Nor have that depth in my taste

[somber sphinx]

Actually I’ll test it

Speaking of Omni tho, it’s pretty terrifying in the jungles and the buff that made it so nothing can buck it off when they have no stam is pretty good

[hasty coyote]

it works slightly, but your model doesnt go away so it can make certain angles odd

[alpine plover]

Though the situation with carno does seem unfair

[somber sphinx]

That and you can’t look up that far when zooming in at max

[alpine plover]

Mostly having to do with the staggers/knockdowns of the charge being so punishing

While it's ability is so low cost in exchange

[somber sphinx]

this was the highest i could look upwards

[somber sphinx]

The hit box is the biggest issue with carnos charge currently and I’d kinda like if carno didn’t knock down teno sized animals when charging but only stunning/stagger them

[alpine plover]

Tuning down the damage of the charge as well

So it's more of a tool, rather than an all encompassing weapon

With all it's capabilities currently it is too good for it's class and general stats

[leaden wagon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ezl0PCbL8M&t=5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjRVtCApPk

[dusky surge]

I don't know why people are asking for carno to be reverted when in reality the main issue is the hitbox

Fix that, the animal becomes a LOT more fair

[median swan]

not reallly, how could you explain the instant charge with massive damage..

[dusky surge]

Carno only needs three nerfs (one of which is less of a nerf and more of a fix)

• Hitbox brought more inline with the visual model
• Minor (maybe 5%) initial stamcost on activation to punish spam
• Knockdown threshhold reduced to not be able to knock down animals over 50% its weight (so it can't be knocking down tenos, and instead focuses on small game. It can still stagger animals above 50% of its weight tho though)

[drifting mural]

Rather than sending me paragraphs, why don’t you actually play as stego or deino and experience how overpowered stegos are like I have? Go ahead and show me some proof of how “not overpowered” stegos are. The only real way to kill a stego is if they’re stupid enough to cross water where they can’t swing. There’s a lot of words between people on this discord and I can guarantee no one has actually tested the outcomes like I have. They just go by what the dev updates “say” have changed.

I play both stego and deino. And I know as a solo stego I can take on 3 deinos no problem as long as I avoid my head getting bit, which is easy. Stego is TOO STRONG. It’s a simple fact.

Stegos can swing 3x faster than a deino can bite. Not only that, if a deino tries to turn and escape after doing some damage, there’s a HUGE delay in turning and you proceed to take up to 3 more hits while you turn away. There’s a lot of balance issues in this game that people seem to overlook because they take the word of the ‘patch notes’ rather than experiencing the game themselves. In my game experience, stego is too strong.

[dusky surge]

then don't fight adult stegos as a deino??? Deino is still the more viable animal of the two, with WAY more benefits than stego, and nerfing stego for the fight to be deino-favoured would be horrible for balance

[drifting mural]

These devs like to pride themselves on realism. And it’s not realistic for a stego to be in its current state in the game. They are not powerhouses.

[dusky surge]

it's not realistic for a deino to survive as many thagomizer hits to the skull as it does

if we're going realism, it should be dead in the first strike. That's not good for balance, though

[drifting mural]

Actually it is. Deinos are meant to have thick skulls and terrifying jaw power. They are not even supposed to be rivalled by a thin tail slap of a stego.

[median swan]

they should be affraid of deinos instead they do 1v5 and manage to win 🙂

[dusky surge]

deino is quite literally designed to hunt smaller game

the fact people expect deino to be killing EVERYTHING, from smalls to apexes with ease, is ridiculous

[drifting mural]

Deinos should be the terrifying apex. The water should be terrifying for stegos to walk up to, not “oh I’m a stego I can just kill them if they peek out while I drink”

[dusky surge]

deino is a terrifying apex... to animals half its own weight

deino's strength lies in its ability to INSTANTLY kill any smaller animal that strays too close to its waters

over half the planned roster of 55 is easy pickings for deino, and that's not even accounting for sub-adult apexes

its weakness comes in its difficulty in fighting someone it's own size

other apexes (like stego), cannot be quickly dispatched and can instead fight back, posing a significant threat to deino, who relies on quick and easy ambush kills

[hasty coyote]

plus, stego is literally a hard counter to deino, in basically every way other than hp and water mobility

[drifting mural]

People that play stego are always going to argue otherwise. I’ve played both. And I know for a fact that I can take an adult stego and harass the absolute crap out of deino players with zero consequence.

[bright oasis]

legacy brain moment. people coming from legacy see high weight and big number and expect it to win the stego facetank.

also stego is an herb so it has to have the eat grass and die niche

[dusky surge]

i hate stego, i can't stand playing it, far too slow. Still don't think it should be beaten by deino

stego is by far my least played animal, "stego main" is a moot argument

[bright oasis]

ive grown a single stego, was more than enough for me

[hasty coyote]

also, it may surprise you, but this is a survival game rather than a deathmatch, you don't have to fight everything you see, you can almost always avoid it. And if you can't avoid it, you can fight it.

[dusky surge]

i think i've managed to reach an adult stego once and never again lmao

[tall bronze]

To be fair, that's kind of expected when you have an 8 ton massive alligator

almost like it was intended to be smaller hmmmmheeheehuehue

[drifting mural]

The best part is that the devs don’t read any of this so the argument is a waste of my time. Your welcome to keep your opinion, but I’ll keep mine. Stegos are too strong.

[dusky surge]

still don't agree with smaller deino but that's a different discussion

[golden coral]

Stegos are not overpowered compared to deinos. And trust you me, a lot of people have tested and done better than you have. You can not take on 3 deinos if they know what they're doing and you stay and fight them. Stego is by no means too strong, if anything deino is the far too "good" playable. In your experience, which is clearly lacking, you've not considered all factors at all. I've seen deinos solo stegos, so you know, that's a thing too.

[tall bronze]

[golden coral]

Stegos are quite powerful, no idea where you get the idea that they wouldn't be. You think real life stegos were weak?

[golden coral]

You... are clearly out of your mind if you think stego jab would be weak. Or that deinos were that powerful or terrifying.

[drifting mural]

Yeah, yeah.

[tall bronze]

Wait when did they pride themselves on realism 😮 We have Carnos ramming things with their heads and galloping 6T Stegos

[golden coral]

They don't. But deinos are some of the worst players in this game so no surprise that happens.

[dusky surge]

lmao true

deino is such a pushover to grow lol

[golden coral]

Yes, you're entirely wrong.

[tall bronze]

That's what happens when you have something so big be so easy to grow

No filter for the bad players

[drifting mural]

Difference in opinion.

[golden coral]

Deino is very op compared to stego.

[drifting mural]

My opinion doesn’t need to match yours to be correct. Grow up.

[golden coral]

No, you're actually wrong, its not an opinion.

[dusky surge]

Deino has a lot more factors that make it INFINITELY more viable than stego

[golden coral]

Again, no. There's no reason a stego should fear a deino. Any more than any other apex should really.

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/wait-hold-andre-the-giant-gif-13854880

[drifting mural]

People like you are why others find the isle discord to be so toxic. You inflate your own ego by telling people how ‘wrong’ they are because it doesn’t match your itty bitty mindset.

[golden coral]

So it seems. Eat grass and die you stupid stego xD

[dusky surge]

Namely better growth stages, bleed resist, instant-kill attacks on anything half its weight, stealth, entirely unique environment the other animals can't attack them in, higher speed, water sense as a mechanic, so on, so forth

Deino is by far the better animal in terms of pure viability

[drifting mural]

Have a good day arguing over something the devs will never even catch wind of. 👍

[tall bronze]

[golden coral]

You're the one coming in here making incorrect statements. It has nothing to do with ego, or mindset, just actual facts.

But you know what, that's fine, you can make those statements, and I'll just point out where it's wrong and it's all good.

[tall bronze]

Text failing to convey tone always leads to stuff like this ;o;

Same with emotes. I've had some think I'm being rude just because I used 😛 when really I'm doing that to show there's no hard feelings or anything <:I

[golden coral]

Not really. The guy claimed deino was meant to have thick skulls and terrifying jaws (is this another one of the actually real life deino bite force thing argument?), and that somehow stego tail strikes are.. what, thin and weak. In what world does that make any sense, or have any basis what so ever?

[bright oasis]

bro he really do be saying eat grass and die.

[tall bronze]

I mean it's got that massive tail for a reason

It's also why in the future I want it to deal some level of fracture but that tends to be a spicy topic

[golden coral]

Clearly not. Stego is apparently weak. Never mind that this is also a game and thus game balance.

[dusky surge]

grass eater = weak, pathetic, meat for superior animals
meat eater = strong, powerful, never loses, designed by God himself to win every fight

[bright oasis]

https://tenor.com/view/jontron-coolasice-straightupfact-facts-gif-24929414

[tall bronze]

I want Stego to eventually crunch things >:)

[golden coral]

Crunch things?

[tall bronze]

Like walnuts >:)

In all seriousness in the future after severities are added for fractures, yes. I've always desired for fractures to eventually be more of a regular injury similar to bleed rather than "nope only these 3 things can break bone because". I know I know, it focuses on bleed and it still could even with fractures.

But if I see something like say a Carno get it's like thwackomized full force with no limp whatsoever, I'ma be perplexed and quite honestly bewildered.

[hollow canyon]

Dude, I don't care how many Deinos you can take on with Stego, Deino players are trash, you can murder them en masse if you're any good at the game:

"bu-bu-but I can take on 3 Deinos at once" means nothing
Edit: Damn, I actually read the whole thing now and you might play both of these animals while I play only Deino but you still don't know a thing about either one of them and damn... it shows.

[tall bronze]

If only the 8T creature capable of one shotting most of the current roster was....like ya know.....challenging to grow

Then maybe there'd be an actual filter for bad and good players

[hollow canyon]

2 good Deinos will tear you into shreds and make you run for your life if you're lucky or just kill you on the spot

[golden coral]

Both of them should be challenging to grow and sustain. But alas, we're not there yet

[tall bronze]

I yearn for the day certain species become rarer as they get older ;-;

Like tons of baby gators is fine. But the bigger they get, the rarer it should be to encounter one. To the point that only the best can achieve adult and especially elder.

[hollow canyon]

Then they should win, if there's a group of 5 Deinos that die to a single Stego then they deserve to lose their croc

If someone's that bad they shouldn't even get to play an adult Deino

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-yes-thats-grand-plankton-gif-24832301

[golden coral]

But think of how sad it be if only the people that honestly cared for the critter would be the ones to consistently play it and thus eventually get good enough to reach adult. No more "I want to be this thing" and doing well with it just because you can choose to play it. xD

[hollow canyon]

Honestly Deino should just get downsized it's absolutely ridiculous how it gets played by completely atrocious players who get carried by the animal they play and then they just screech when they lose in the only match up against the single creature that doesn't get absolutely murdered on the spot by them

also 50-70% Deino is much more fun to play

[tall bronze]

I don't see much of an issue with having to work for something like Deino 😛 If it's too hard, then you could prolly find an easier growth server or even just go to sandbox. Of course these aren't exactly viable options right now, but they will be :3

[tall bronze]

[golden coral]

I was "obviously" trying to make fun of the current situation. I quite agree with you that stego and deino should be properly difficult to get and keep.

[tall bronze]

Oh

[alpine sleet]

I wish the developers would consider this because it seems like the best solution, at least for me

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-throw-away-brain-spongebob-gif-8612783

[hollow canyon]

I've included all those in my feedback, there's a decent chance the QA took a look at that, they might potentially do one of those(the hitbox is definitely getting fixed cause it's honestly just borderline bugged)

but they might just find a different solution for all we know

it's up to them

[alpine sleet]

yes for sure

[hollow canyon]

all I can say is that Carno is NOT going to stay like this

that's for certain, it's quite obviously overtuned rn

[alpine sleet]

once they fix the hitbox thats gonna be a big step forward

[tall bronze]

Gonna be nice on the day Carno isn't the big bad anymore

Though I'm sure another will take it's place 😛

[alpine sleet]

i think carno will always be the big bad

[hollow canyon]

nah, it's actually pretty tiny relatively to the whole roster, it's just that the devs are sticking to this "smalls first" idea

[alpine sleet]

I mean carno will always be that carnivore that terrorizes utah

[golden coral]

Only as long as we're doing this "small critters first" roster :p

[alpine sleet]

an small game

[tall bronze]

Yeah! Haha....smalls first!.....heh....

[alpine sleet]

and*

[golden coral]

Okay yes, carno will, and should, remain the terror of the small game it hunts. But in turn there'll be targets that will be terrified of omni packs, and so on for most things.

[tall bronze]

I want to take Stego and Deino and put them in The Box™️

[alpine sleet]

thats how it should go

[golden coral]

I also imagine that omnis might not be so much on the open plains in the long run, at least not in open plains with only carno out there aside from a stego that can't really threaten a carno what so ever.

If there's other, slightly more ... aggressive and mobile plains animals, but also big enough to pose a threat to a carno, it might not be able to roam entirely freely either.

[median swan]

hahah right now 1 carno could destroy a whole raptor pack just charge spam once it hit the raptor died 🙂

[tall bronze]

Wouldn't that require the entire pack to be tightly packed together 😮

[median swan]

sure it does

what if carno charge could give some slowdown depends on weight ..

[median swan]

carno don't have any footsteps right now

[golden coral]

At least the change in distance for calls means we don't have to hear them spam calling all the time :p

[dusky surge]

ehhh

i really dislike the new sound stuff

its probably a bug, i know, but i like hearing things make noise'

[tall bronze]

I would like a day where calls work as intended ;o;

[golden coral]

Maybe I'm too tired because me trying to be funny doesn't seem to work out. I dislike the new change as well, the servers just feel dead. Maybe something between the old and new would be good.

[tall bronze]

They had mentioned fixing reverb with calls, but I barely noticed a difference

It still mostly sounds like it's either far and muffled or right nearby

[alpine sleet]

once they add all of the trello inhabitants, does that mean they'll start adding things like apex predators,rexes, gigas, etc. and bigger herbivores?

[tall bronze]

We're not too sure what happens after the roadmap we have now is complete. Perhaps though 😮

However I'd guess that they'd just keep moving up the chain of sizes as well as adding what may be necessary for certain updates (like how venom requires Troodon)

[dusky surge]

yep

[tall bronze]

I hope Cama isn't in the ultra-far-future™️

[thin mantle]

That was a gamble that didn’t pay off for you…

I do play both stego and deino, I’ve grown one of each so far in U6…
I’ve killed both species on both animals, solo and in a group, never in a group as a stego but in deino pairs we shred them.
Alone it’s certainly possible despite the complete unnecessarity of the engagement, you don’t actually have to fight adult stegos despite your capacity to do so, which is why these kinds of “criticisms” baffle me so much, not only CAN you take a stego on alone on gator, you don’t even have to, and they quite literally lack the ability to threaten you because of the aquatic advantage. You are the only one with the agency necessary to place yourself in danger…for that reason alone I’d argue that deinos ability to even solo a stego is potentially a balance issue since that’s quite literally the only way deino can die unless other deinos somehow ambush it….when you literally have a built in automatic sonar..

If you can’t take a stego on as a deino, in pairs, you’re a bad deino, if you can take on a stego alone, you’re an exceptional deino, and all of this is in spite of the matchups complete irrelevance to deino as it’s designed for punching down, somewhat equivalent matchups is supposed to be what deino is poor at because it already oneshots 60-70% if the completed roster without counterplay in a single keystroke concealed with bear complete invisibility whilst residing in an essential resource for all of the animals in the game and to come, as an ambusher the pot couldn’t get any sweeter and yet it ALSO has the power to not only survive but KILL a stego, the only animal in game that can pose a threat to it…not only that but pairs destroy stegos…I can’t reiterate this enough.

[golden coral]

@queen knollWell, carno and deino are cannibals, they are literally meant to play like that. And stegos could do with the competition, though I wish there were better reasons, and a better mirror matchup for them.

[thin mantle]

I also find it fundamentally bizarre how the assumed state of your adversary when discussing the state of balance for these animals is that “you must not have played them or you would know”, as if anything aside from “stego curbstomps deino no diff and can do so against groups of 3 alone” is uninformed or irrational…like…damn

[queen knoll]

i get that but theres nothing else to play utahs are too squishy and i dont want to play herb

[queen knoll]

also carnos irl are pack animals

[bright oasis]

ok? this is a game btw

[golden coral]

Well, you not wanting to play any of the others is kind of, well, your own problem.

[queen knoll]

bro then tell the devs that lmao flys and garbage they adding

[golden coral]

I can't really advice you there, but deino and carno are cannibals in the game, so that's to be expected when you play them.

[queen knoll]

games dry, been dry will remain dry

[thin mantle]

Irl carnos would snap their spines attempting to charge as well

[golden coral]

If you feel that way then fair enough. Though you can't really tell how it will be in the future.

[queen knoll]

update 6 was nothing but bug fixes

no content

[golden coral]

Really?

[queen knoll]

ooh flies tho

[tall bronze]

And also a rework of diets as well as gore

[bright oasis]

what would you call content

[queen knoll]

diets were never a problem. time was

[golden coral]

I do seem to recall something like that yes. But maybe that does not count as content xD

[queen knoll]

new dinos, new map.. not bug fixes and content copy pasted from legacy

[queen knoll]

these two bozo know nothing about content

[golden coral]

Diets got an entire overhaul in how they work plus given paths to tailor playstyle as you want. Organs and rotten food and bones were added so there's more variation in what you can and can not eat. There were obviously content added, even if said content may not be to your taste.

[tall bronze]

I mean you can't really copy paste things from legacy that never existed in legacy Diets quite literally weren't there and the only thing close to gore was carcasses. That's it 😛

[golden coral]

I... think you might be the one not quite understanding what can constitute new content or otherwise changes aside from bug fixes.

[bright oasis]

adding new unfinished dinos would be them literally copy-pasting from legacy, in a sense.

and map isnt finished, they're upgrading it to a new engine.

[queen knoll]

i did notice they balanced ai so now theres one in each tree, but thats not content that a fix id call it a bug anything else and its poor thinking from the dev

[golden coral]

I'm not quite sure what you mean with one in each tree? Anyway, the new diets and the decay aspect is new content, it's certainly not just bug fixes at the very least.

[tall bronze]

So being able to get a variety of combos to change our playstyle a bit, diets as a whole being less of a chore, being able to rip things' guts out, none of that is new content? 😮

[queen knoll]

see how theres an ai in each tree

[median swan]

why do they add deer boar, rabbit and chicken, why not just other dinosaurs....

[tall bronze]

Isle takes place in the modern day, and the explanation for those creatures is that humans had to feed the dinosaurs something

[dusky surge]

because that's what was used by the humans to feed the dinos, lol. I much prefer playable dinos and AI modern animals than AI dinos

[bright oasis]

until rex and spino drop, im not counting ANYTHING as new content 😡

[dusky surge]

AI is easily identified

[golden coral]

Oh you mean the preferred food. That's not what I meant with dietary paths. I meant the new buffs and all that.

[queen knoll]

really? players idle grow in the over sized map they have

[golden coral]

There's been AI in the diets before this path for that matter.

[queen knoll]

oh well i was talking about that

[tall bronze]

I remember finding Dryo AI with only 2 things

1. They actually used walk
2. They always looked to the sides for some reason

[golden coral]

Well, we are supposed to be getting dino AI as well at some point I'm pretty sure.

[queen knoll]

they have been gone bud

[dusky surge]

New mechanics, interactive systems and changes to the core playstyle? You call that content? Drop like 15 rushed apex animals, then THAT'S content

[golden coral]

Well, them adding AI into the diets is not new, them adding dietary paths and buffs for them is however.

[dusky surge]

(i hate dino AI a lot)

[median swan]

why ?

[tall bronze]

I know, I'm referring to when they were a thing 😛

[dusky surge]

I prefer dinos playable and these other creatures who are built to fulfil the role of AI be AI

[median swan]

the current ai we had, just so clunky moving weirdly around the map 🙂

[dusky surge]

and how would dino AI be better

[queen knoll]

no i know its not new.... im saying theyre balanced now. before the ai were in only 2 trees now its 3

[dusky surge]

our current AI is built as an AI first, not a playable first

trying to get an AI to act like a player is extremely tough

[median swan]

looks way better

[dusky surge]

not really, no

[golden coral]

Oh okay, fair enough then.

[tall bronze]

I will always fear for the day they re-add hostile AI. You just can't really replicate how a player hunts for an AI.

Like one thing I worry for is camouflage. What's to say to a human player, I am hidden thanks to a mixture of foliage and my skin. But an AI doesn't see skin. It sees entities, so I'm still visible to it anyways because 🤖🤖🤖.

[dusky surge]

I love boar AI

and the new angry compies are INCREDIBLE

[tall bronze]

Boars are funny

[golden coral]

Pumbaa is evil, that's all there is to it!

[dusky surge]

god I love how compies are tiny little rage goblins now

[tall bronze]

Though killing them is weird because like 4 seconds after I do, scavengers manifest from the ground

[queen knoll]

most people on here are hard to argue with. letting you know in advance youll lose some brain cells

[dusky surge]

exactly

AI does not have the same organic counterplay that players do

it's robotic and predictable

either it will feel horrible to die to, or it will be a joke and easy food

neither of which I like

[tall bronze]

There's also the possibility of things like "I'm hidden in this bush. But uh oh, my dino shifted to the right a tiny bit and it's tail poked out juuuust enough to immediately trigger the AI Carno"

[dusky surge]

I really like the current way they've done AI

AI has no organs and isn't high on food, so it encourages you to engage with players instead

[median swan]

the hostile ai went too far, i was hiding in bushes as half 70% omni for a while until i found out getting killed by a boars

[dusky surge]

now imagine if that was an AI carno

it would do the same thing, but faster and with less ability to stop it

hence why i dislike AI dinosaurs

[queen knoll]

all they need to do is shrink the map... more player encounters that way

[dusky surge]

not really

[median swan]

imagine having ai that actually as smart as in RDR 2, they will know their place, and have all sense attached

[dusky surge]

the next map is larger than our current one, but it utilises migrations to encourage player movement into specific locations

[queen knoll]

really? 100 players online and you never starve without help from ai?

[dusky surge]

i dont know where i said that

i'm saying that they don't need to shrink the map to encourage player encounters

[median swan]

migration might help that

[queen knoll]

they absolutely need to shrink it. herbies idle in bushes in the most random places with no other food around so carno dont bother so they dont risk starving lmao

[dusky surge]

again, shrinking isn't needed

migrations act to solve that issue without heavily restricting playable space

[median swan]

they need to overhaul the scent system to encourage tracking or avoiding idling bushes player

[queen knoll]

what more can they do? they moved food? i only ever see any carnos in center, nesting spots, south and nw. and they use the same path everytime. you must main herbies since you dont see issues

[dusky surge]

i dont main herbis lol

first of all, they're adding a new map, one not so awfully designed as the current one

[queen knoll]

yea i aint sure about that

[dusky surge]

dude

my favourite animal is omni

that's what i play the most

[silk harness]

The were originally supposed to have Pterodactylus fly around afk players and make a bunch of noise. Disappointed they don't do that in U6, idk if they're still planning to add it

[dusky surge]

im not saying there isn't a problem atm

[queen knoll]

well theyre bodies are most common lol since they dont want to boost health on them.

[dusky surge]

i'm saying the problem DOES NOT need to be solved by shrinking the map

there are other options

that's my only argument, idk what's with the aggression lol

[queen knoll]

yea itll def be better if the shrink the map if the mess with anything else theyll break the game more we dont need that since it takes 6 months to fix anything

[dusky surge]

okay

i'm going to run you down everything so you can digest it all

[queen knoll]

im good

i learned alot by reading the patch notes

they only do more damage than good

[dusky surge]

• Spiro, the current map, is going away. Because it's horribly designed and naturally makes it that you can only survive in a few areas
• Gateway, the new map, is larger than the current playable area of Spiro, however, it has a great deal more environmental diversity, and uses migrations as a system to encourage players to move around and encounter other players
• Not going to migration spots can make food quite a competitive commodity between herbivores, and can lead to poor diets or hunger if you can't find enough or fight off competition for it
• This encourages player interaction, while keeping the map large and engaging

[wild cove]

Herbies idle in bushes in hard to find places to avoid carno because carno is broken af lol Especially this update with its broken hitbox that hits you from a few meters away, so you have an infestation of bulldozing carnos killing everything, unopposed by anything but Deino.

And now you also have an infestation of hackers using nameplate hacks, speed hacks, stam hacks, health/immortality hacks, etc.

No herbie in their right mind would want to play out in the open, now more than ever.

[queen knoll]

carnos were nerfed long time ago, you want the utah to do more damage than the biggest meat eater in rn? (deinos dont count)

[wild cove]

Clearly haven't played U6 then if you think that

[median swan]

utah should deal comparable damage as carno not in term of raw poweer but dps. it should be a glass cannon not a glass

[dusky surge]

no it should not wtf

[pseudo spruce]

I dont think comparable

Maybe a bit more damage but utah is mainly a pack hunter

So having similar damage would take away that incentive to pack hunt

They just need to give them a bit more mobilty/ turn speed and polish em up cause right now pounce is somehow almost as bad as update 3 when I last played and I swear that was a year ago

[wild cove]

1:1 carno should win unless its braindead. The problem is currently a braindead carno can decimate an entire omni pack because its charge can hit you from a mile away with little/no risk to it

[pseudo spruce]

Exactly

I say 3 utahs to 1 carno should give a fair fight if both are averaged skilled players

that would make sense

[thin mantle]

Ummmm....what xD
Not even in bleed damage...like actually what is omnis weakness at that point, within it's own tier it'd be a god tier unstoppable force let alone a carno tier dps punch up high agility massive stam pool and regen pack hunter....like actually what is the point of playing as a group when each of you is a 500 hp carno...lmao

[median swan]

like increase the bleed damage of Utah and increase bleed resistance of carno so basicaly negate some from the full potential of utah.

or everything the same but give bleed stack if the attack hits in the same location. basically add more incentive to attack the weakspot.

[median swan]

that's the weakness, the glass health easily slammed by predators or hebivores if not careful. i often got one shot by a carno charge, and barely makes any damage to it

increase bleed damage but lower the damage output

[thin mantle]

That's not a weakness, that still makes you astronomically stronger than others in your size range, it's only a weakness in the context of animals FAR larger than you...which you should absolutely not be balanced against in a 1v1...even a 2v1

[median swan]

the point of pack hunting is bleed out the opponent not crushing the opponent

[thin mantle]

The point of pack hunting is to also necessitate a pack to cover your low damage and hp, the counterbalance being omnis agility and ability to pounce at all....arguably omni does too much damage to targets...teno is still a walking bag of meat rn...the only reason carno and pachy are so difficult to take on for raptors is because they're designed to hard counter it...I wouldn't want that to obscure omnis perceived imbalances tho, pachy is overtuned rn and carno has a very easy counter rn, and once executed they only take like...3-4 tap pounces to bleed out with relatively low effort

[wild cove]

Honestly the main problem with omni-carno matchups is that omni should be able to take a solo carno as a pack, but most carnos also roll in a pack average ~4 or so members, so omni doesn't stand a chance unless they catch one alone and play smart

[thin mantle]

They can, if you can't as an omni pack of 3 or more you're comically bad at omni

Use the treeline, you basically can't lose after the 3rd tap pounce

[wild cove]

don't trees knock omni off or did they remove that? Because it used to be pouncing anything inside the trees was a death sentence

every omni pack I ever encountered pre-U6 would avoid trees at all cost because of that

[thin mantle]

no they don't

They didn't in U5 either

[wild cove]

So they removed it

[thin mantle]

It hasn't been in the game for awhile, not since U3.75 or the U4 st

[wild cove]

Someone should really tell the omni players that lol

Cuz I was still hearing people say it was a thing in U5

[thin mantle]

They are still strategically advantageous since you can force a shorter dismount...not that dismounts even matter if you're pouncing properly

Since you only need to deal 1 or 2 ticks of damage to get value from it

[obtuse ocean]

I like how they describe omnis " the truly clever ones are the ones you dont see" and i always see omnis out the open. But it was one time i killed a boar as carno, and while eating they jumped me. I didnt stand a chance, but that was a deserved death and they did play it smart.

[analog mirage]

The only change needed is for the tick speed on bucking to go down slightly slower but not what we had last time. Also fixing the more magnetic pounce issues

It’s not fair to lose all your stamina in two ticks

[frail bobcat]

And the turn bug fix (if it exists, I think it does)

[hollow canyon]

@wise glade Apparently aside from derender hacks there's also one that just puts a tag above you that they can follow. I'm not sure how exactly it works but they can basically see where you are from across the map. I was killed that way by a Carno that ran all the way across the map to kill me(although that was some time ago).

[hasty coyote]

Fluff… them being knocked off by trees was added again in U5 and is still a thing.

[hollow canyon]

Yea it just seems to work worse than it did back in the day, at least in my experience. I wasn't knocked down while pouncing someone who ran into a tree during U5 on more than one occasion

[silent lotus]

I just started playing the game a month or so before the last big patch. Has a newbie car now, I was knocking raptors off me using trees, all the time.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah it’s a bit finicky, but I have had it happen to me and have done it to others. It seems you have to go close enough to the object to make the Omni clip into it, but not too close that you clip into it.

[hollow canyon]

Yea it works, I've done it too and it did work on me as well but it's seemingly less reliable than back in the day

although it's mainly from Raptor perspective

I haven't had issues knocking people down for the most part I think

[alpine sleet]

It is estimated that the irl trike had a fast turning speed, thanks to their low gravity center, even so it is a game and they could make it slow for balance purposes

[regal goblet]

It was 💀 I remember knocking raptors off of me in U5 considering I've barely played U6, and I've been knocked off as playing a raptor by carno,stego,etc. It's only certain trees that can do it XD

[thin mantle]

Oh really? I’ve been attempting to use it and it hasn’t been working at all, same with when I’m on Omni I’ll avoid it but when I fail to nothing happens

[thin mantle]

Well now I just feel colossally unlucky

[golden coral]

@wraith relicI believe stego used to have a much worse turn (I think juvies still do for that matter), but that turned out to make it very hard for it to defend itself from things just biting the head, so it was changed. (also with the terrible turn, it took ages to turn around when you're done eating or drinking).

[wraith relic]

Noted

I think the water resistance suggestion is good

[golden coral]

It's not a terrible suggestion by any means, I personally just prefer added stam drain, limiting the ability to both attack and run away if someone insists on fighting in deep water and isn't a semiaquatic.

[wraith relic]

I’d be happy with either

[golden coral]

@wraith relicShould also note that currently, deino lunge stuns the deino far too long, or so I've been told. If that gets fixed, then the added damage buff should make deino vs stego a bit more even, and most certainly far worse for a stego in a 2v1.

[wraith relic]

Yes please

The one thing about stego is that if there’s more than 1 they can take on pretty much an infinite amount of danger

But you can’t really do anything about that

[golden coral]

Still hope the stego retains a clear advantage, deino shouldn't really be hunting them, it just needs to be able to scare one off a bit easier if the stego insists on being a bother. (though with new and better rivers, it should also be easier to avoid a stego).

[wraith relic]

Yeah

Stegos aren’t as much a problem anymore currently

[golden coral]

Mostly due to deino needing more numbers to fight stego properly, but aside from stego, two deinos are pretty immortal on land too.

[wraith relic]

Due to no one playing herbis after gore got added

[golden coral]

But it makes sense that deino need more numbers to compensate for fighting on land, it's probably a bit more even if they all fight at the shoreline honestly, since it'd also "pack" the stegos closer and thus put them at risk of friendly fire

[golden coral]

:(

[wraith relic]

It’s a serious problem, once strains get added herbis will most likely be non existent

[hasty coyote]

Yeah dw it hasn’t been very consistent with me either lol. But it’s in the game and I have seen it be used and have had people use it on me.

[golden coral]

Hopefully strains will be almost impossible to get anyway, but I could see it being more appealing to be the specific carnis that get those yes.

[wraith relic]

If I have to be honest carnis have way more mechanics than herbis, I’m praying that migration will be good enough to respark people interest in playing them

[hasty coyote]

The issue is… the carnivores just migrate with the prey anyway

[wraith relic]

I hope dryos and hypsis don’t have to go across the map just for a little food

I really hope they make it so little herbis that burrow like dryo don’t even have to migrate at all

It’s not really necessary for them

I really don’t think anything smaller than a Galli should be migrating

[night compass]

@wise glade with what you said about the hackers, It absolutely needs to be fixed. I don't know what the case was for the carno, but I've played as a carno once since the update, and I realized when I was far from a bush that it didn't render. I was in the NE and I saw a Utah that was sitting in a bush because it hadn't rendered. That might’ve been what happened. Either way though, you're right. Both that render problem and the hackers need to be fixed

[wild cove]

That's what I thought and what made playing Omni so difficult. You couldn't fight carnos in open fields because they'd just bulldoze you with charge and you couldn't fight carnos in trees because they'd knock you off using the trees and then bite you to death, so basically you just couldn't win against carno.

Tis why I think the "if you die to carnos you're just an awful omni player" is a little bit of a silly criticism to all the average players who basically don't stand a chance against braindead carnos because they're not one of the "really good omni players", especially right now with its stupid mile-long charge that's become much easier to spam with 0 risk. Meanwhile if your pounce is slightly too far to the left (and I mean literally inches off where you're clipping through the other dino on landing) or lag gets you, you miss and die because all you have is 500 HP against something that can 1-3 shot you and also has just as many/more friends than you and can outrun and now outturn you.

[regal goblet]

in U5 you could get away with biting the butt and doging bites if the carno camped a tree, yes you needed to be a skilled player doing so ( i personally consider myself on the skilled side ) but i agree it is silly for people to just assume that your awful if you die especially if your starting out or just enjoying yourself in general. With U6 with how carno is now its even harder to win for omni!! almost impossible even with a mega pack against 3 or 2 skilled carnos

[golden coral]

So they fixed the magnet pounce at least? (at least it's far preferable if you have to aim the pounce than not aim at all) And while dying to carnos in the open makes quite some sense, you should be more or less good in the forest. Though I guess it also depends on if you're using tap pounces or not. Also, much as you people like to claim "skill", there's not much to it when neither of the playables require much of it. So I'm not sure that really says much. And it makes sense that 2-3 carnos would win vs a pack, if 3-4 omnis matches one carno, more or less.

[wild cove]

I wouldn't even say you have to be a skilled carno. I'm certainly not and just about anything that's not a stego or deino I can easily steamroll, including other adult carnos lol

[night compass]

It was in U5, I was knocked off by a tree once while playing

[wild cove]

I play carno once in a blue moon and its the only thing I can play with 0 effort or worry unless something gets me as soon as I spawn in. Once I get like 40% grown, the whole game becomes a walk in the park. Its harder to play a deino than a carno

[golden coral]

Not really, deino is far more limited. But carno and omni are both quite the simple playables. (though with carno hitbox right now, you need as little aim as the magnet pounce needs).

Though deino barely requires any braincells either so that's not much of a comparison I suppose.

[wild cove]

I've played both deino and carno and hands down, carno is easier. I spend lots of time as deino hiding from other deinos who like to kill on-sight if you're smaller than them, and as a result I often afk-grow inside waterside bushes just to not get eaten since movement tells other deinos where you are and they can also hear your movements in water. Carno is the only thing I can actively play without an afk time and not worry about dying unless I get nabbed by a deino crossing rivers which almost never happens lmao

Deino is by far easier once its grown but the actual getting-to-adult is harder

The fact that the deino meta I've personally seen is small deinos run for the hills as soon as my bigger deino shows up, but every small carno on the map will immediately flock to me (even though I always play canni carno) thinking I'll just adopt them in and protect them kinda speaks for itself there

[golden coral]

Not really. growing a deino is probably overall easier, if slower. Carno is more at risk of stuff than deino is during growth. And you can escape adult deinos by going on land so there's that too.

Much as current carno go fast, deino is, aside from ptera, the safest thing in the entire game to grow and be.

[wild cove]

The fastest dino in the game, which is significantly faster at juvie/sub-adult, is not hard to play by any means. If adult carnos or raptors try to go anywhere near me, I can outrun all of them and have the entire map to escape to. If an adult deino comes for my baby deino, I have limited options, which is the river which has little escape room, and running onto land which puts me at risk of everything else that wants to kill me, including adult carnos that can outrun me and adult omni that can pounce me and everything else that has way more long-distance stam than deino does. So yeah, carno is easier than deino, imo.

[golden coral]

I didn't say it was hard, I said deino is easier still. And I think you get big enough to not get pinned quite quickly, if that is a worry. And you'd be surprised how well deino can move on land right now, sub deinos are apparently quite the terror :p

[wild cove]

I'm not sure I can speak to sub deino's land speed because the game is so infested with hackers right now you can't even tell who is and isn't one. I had my 58% sub stego run down by full adult stegs from across an entire field away, doesn't mean I have to fear getting run down by adult stegs who play legitly

I know the last week I've seen more hackers than legit players lmao

i.e. I'll reserve that judgment for after the hacking situation is dealt with

[golden coral]

Fair enough!

[wild cove]

I know pre-U6 it wasn't that way and I'm thinking of U5 carno as well, not just U6, but U6 carno has definitely amplified the braindead death spam gameplay by a lot

[golden coral]

U5 omni, U6 carno. And around we go :p

@wild coveIf only all playables were as well designed as teno!

[wild cove]

Yeah but at least when omni were able to counter carno better in U5, you didn't see megapacks of them everywhere because 50% of people were just playing carno because playing anything else was just asking to die. Good omni players can of course create a lot of challenge for players but given their squishy health, they only had to screw up once or twice to no longer be a problem.

I like Teno

I'm not great at it but I like it lol

[golden coral]

Hard to "screw up" as omni, you kind of have to try to be honest. And sure, but omnis shouldnt be countering carnos, it's more of a roster issue/prey relationship issue there. But the new map will have carnos crying, or so it seems at least, so maybe omni will be quite popular again when they aren't forced to be in only open plains.

[wild cove]

"New map will have carnos crying" I'll believe it when I see it lol

[golden coral]

Well, teno is also the only playable that requires any form of actual skill, so it makes a lot of sense that most aren't good with it. It takes a whole lot to be good at teno, but then if you are, you're very clearly good compared to a bad teno.

[golden coral]

You've not seen the highlands on Gateway? :D

[wild cove]

Ofc it doesn't take much to make carno mains cry so

I've seen a few peeks here and there but carno is stupidly safe to play and almost always has been

The only things safer to play than carno are deino and stego and both of those require hitting a certain growth for that to be the case

well

[golden coral]

Not if there's hidden rocks that sends you to space everywhere, and dense clusters of cycads that get you stuck and ruins your charge :p

[wild cove]

ptera but its very squishy when its not in the air

[golden coral]

Or so I've been told at least. Highlands not good for carno at all :p

[wild cove]

Again, its an "I'll believe it when I see it". Not saying you're wrong and I hope the terrain disfavors carno heavily compared to on Spiro but we'll see

[golden coral]

Alright, I guess that's fair enough!

[wild cove]

We'll get a more accurate picture when the game is more openly available and playtested beyond a select few players, is all I'm saying lol

But it'd be nice to see a much more balanced ecosystem with more herbs n stuff

[golden coral]

Maybe if herbis ever get more popular than carnis.

[wild cove]

Also hoping that we'll have more rock formations for climbers/jumpers that are actually useable and not just cookie-cutter same all across the map but I don't think I saw a lot of that

More huge, sprawling landmarks from what I saw

[dry remnant]

#balance-feedback message Because developers hate raptors

Raptor is being made weaker, and the conditions in which he plays are getting harsher

[golden coral]

The manueverability, if changed, is not an intended change so will most likely be fixed. The whole camera lock affects everyone, except deino and I guess stego (because why would you ever run at a stego from behind...) And I don't believe there's been any change to boar or deer, so if they were huntable before, it should not really be any different now.

I sincerely doubt the devs hate the omni, since I see no reason why that would be the case.

[dry remnant]

This camera lock is critical only for raptor. 1 Hit and you're dead

1 Time you missed an attack from anyone and you can be said to be killed

[hasty coyote]

that applies to omni, pachy, dryo, hypsi, ptera, teno to an extent, and literally every juvie

[dry remnant]

Pter can eat on the rocks, tenonto does not die in 2 bites

And he can survive one ram from Carnot and safely fend him off after that

[golden coral]

Not only omni, and even if something can survive one hit, that hit can still mean a lot for the rest of the fight.

[hasty coyote]

that is why I said "to an extent" being charged in the face still makes teno lose about 1/4th its hp, not a good start to the fight, nor would a free pounce or 2. Or deino and maybe a stego could 1-shot it
ptera still gets affected by it when it is eating something it can't pick up.
and what about everything else? do they just not count because they aren't omni?

[dry remnant]

If a raptor falls after an attack, it means 99% he will die

Tenonto can kill Carno without losing half of his hp

[golden coral]

Like some others, so it's not exclusive. Also I should point out carnis can take their food with them. Which is probably part of what you're meant to do.

[hasty coyote]

if dryo or hypsi get hit once, they die. If pachy misses and gets hit after being charged, it will die. I don't see much of a difference.

[golden coral]

The entire point of the camera lock is to make things eating and drinking consider when and where they do it, and in which direction to look while doing so.

[dry remnant]

Anyway, blocking the view when eating had a much stronger effect on the omni

[hasty coyote]

it has basically equal effect on all the smalls

[golden coral]

Compared to a pachy or dryo that can't move the bush they're eating from and has to stand in the open? I don't know...

Carno is "safe", due to well, being the biggest thing, just like deino and stego in their own way, but even so, a carno could get jumped if it wasn't careful.

[dry remnant]

I managed to get up on my groins much more often after a carnl attack than on a raptor

[hasty coyote]

especially by other carnos

[golden coral]

Main point is, most things have to worry about the camera lock, from one or more threats.

[dry remnant]

I understand that we are already comparing Raptor in playability with drio and Gypsy. Exactly the same gameplay)

[hasty coyote]

I'm also comparing it to pachy and every single juvie

[dry remnant]

Because he does not pose a danger, and after the deterioration of maneuverability, there is nothing left but to run into the woods and hide

Pahi is much more dangerous, especially if he plays with tenont

Several successful attacks of the groin and the opponent can be considered, if not dead, then unable to continue hunting at least

[hasty coyote]

I don't consider mixpacking, because I can literally make the argument that "omni is fine because it can have a stego friend to protect it"

[golden coral]

Well yes, mixing is a problem. But it's also nothing that shouldn't happen. And hopefully with new map and migrations, we can keep herbis a bit more apart.

[dry remnant]

Herbivores always unite, they have no competition and it makes no sense for them to kill each other

[hasty coyote]

Then we can spread them out and give them reasons to kill each other. such as teno having most of its diets in the swamp and pachy having theirs near the coasts. However, they have a bit of overlap at the plains and share a food source, and trying to feed a bunch of tenos and pachies isn't a viable option

[dry remnant]

Now on omni, it won't even work to dodge Carno, and now let's remember that their running stock is about the same

[golden coral]

Nah, we need herbi competition. Preferably within the same species too. Just like with carnis honestly. (and without cannibalising every time, there should be reasons omnis fight each others packs even if they don't eat each other).

[hasty coyote]

what do you mean my running stock? Their speed and stamina are quite different. Omni has about 1.5 mins of stamina, and carno has only a minute. Plus, that carno will likely be charging and burning even more stamina.

[dry remnant]

The distance they will run after spending all stamina

[hasty coyote]

then omni still wins that, theres a video of someone testing it not too far back, and the stamina and speed for them hasnt changed,

[dry remnant]

Send it

[hasty coyote]

Had to go do something, but here:

https://youtu.be/_qVxr6STXfk

[wild cove]

tap g and eat chunks instead of locking yourself into eating with your face in the ground. I do agree that carno is way overtuned and unfair to basically everything not deino or stego right now though with its charge.

[dusky surge]

@dawn falcon i personally think it would be better to reduce the knockdown threshold of the charge, making it unable to knockdown animals over 50% its size, instead staggering them. This means it can't spamcharge teno into oblivion and prioritises small game, as well as still being a heavy hitting, high-impact small-game hunter

[dawn falcon]

Either or would be good

I’ll include that as an alternate change

[keen plover]

Tbf, even if it was just stuns, carno charge would still dominate teno

[dusky surge]

Not really, since it can't run over teno

ATM, it can quite literally maintain all its forward momentum due to how knockdown works, a stagger would mean it would hit into the side of the teno and have to turn away, meaning it'd need to aim to avoid that happening

[dawn falcon]

Alright, it was updated.

[dusky surge]

It also makes it WAY harder for carnos to slam down herds of tenonto

"Increase the skidding distance whenever missing a charge."

Not only do I not think this change is necessary, I also think it's confusing and makes little sense. Carno's charge isn't really something like omni's or pachy's so having it determine whether you "miss" or not is silly imho

I'd rather the charge cost like, 5% to initiate

That way you're encouraged to hit (also every other ability in the game has an initial stam cost so idk why carno is the exception here)

[dawn falcon]

Oh that’s fair

[keen plover]

I feel like that would severely limit carno. Only hunting smaller creatures like omni and pachy seems lame for it. It should have a chance against all creatures smaller than it. The turn has already been gutted so it would quite literally have no chance against a competent teno even with an ambush

[dawn falcon]

Now that I think about it the skid is still pretty decent. Idk why I included that downside

[keen plover]

Even then, other creatures smaller than teno. Magy, cerato would have an even better time

[dawn falcon]

I’m ripping that out

[dawn falcon]

This is a FAR better idea

[dusky surge]

It'd still have a chance against teno, it just has to play smarter

[dawn falcon]

I yoinked that idea btw

Very juicy stuff

[dusky surge]

(I wouldn't nerf charge damage personally, have it still be a heavy hitting move that obliterates smalls and impacts larger animals)

It's been amazing at keeping smalls actually scared of carnos

[keen plover]

I guess that could be an outcome. We'd need to see the change first. Although I will add another point. Carnos DPS feels a bit low. Like trying to snipe a pachy in a herd means getting hit since even if you knock it down, you won't have enough time to kill it since it can tank a charge + 2 bites on the body.

Well it can't tank 2 bites *

but you're required to bite twice

[dusky surge]

I think the issue here is that people have been used to carno basically only doing well against tenos for a while. Omni and pachy either bled it to death, fractured the hell out of it or simply used agility to dodge its extremely linear attack. Teno was the only animal big enough to actually hit with it. With the new charge, it's a LOT better for carno to go for smalls, but it also being able to knock down tenos makes it RIDICULOUSLY oppressive

[keen plover]

It should, imo, be a charge and bite to dispatch a pachy

[dusky surge]

(also I'd revert carno's damage back to 200 on bite)

[dawn falcon]

also the fact Cc is flawed by itself

[dusky surge]

Why is it 175 I will never know

[dawn falcon]

Wasn’t that a change implemented back in goddamn 3.75 lol

[keen plover]

4 iirc

[dawn falcon]

Or was it 4

[keen plover]

Carno went from 350 > 200 > 175

200 was a good number for it. It felt kind of petty to nerf it 175

[dusky surge]

New charge is a wonderful change for it actually hunting small tiers and not being a pseudo-mid hunter, but it came at the price of it now being WAYYY too good at killing pseudo-mids

Cera is going to melt if charge is left with the current knockdowns

I think the charge should be left as-is, but with a hefty nerf to weight threshold on knockdowns

Make it capable of knocking down every animal in small-tier and below (basically dilo and under), but have it actually have to put some thought into pseudo-mids

[keen plover]

Yeah

What would you guys do with carnos alt bite?

[dawn falcon]

I still would like bleed nuked for Carno

Same with not really utilizing bloodpools

[dawn falcon]

Me or QA

[keen plover]

Anyone reading

[dusky surge]

I've heard propositions of a headswing

Could be decent for, again, bullying and oppressing the hell out of smalls

Which it should do

[dawn falcon]

Yes. I’d very much love a headswing. Would be better than the damn emu bite we have.

[dusky surge]

Oh also I 100% believe that there should be a universal feature that causes staggers on fracture, and stagger on pachy be reduced to only 200% of it's own weight, while knockdowns be reduced to it's weight and below

So a pachy can stagger an animal 1000kg and below, and anything above, it has to fracture to stagger, giving it three staggers total before it's out

Pachy should not be as good as it is at killing tenos and carnos, it's ridiculous

Especially against teno, that matchup is AWFUL for teno

[keen plover]

Yeah seen that a bit. As long as we get something actually useful. Since alt bite is a very use case ability (knock downs and face tanking other carnos).

[keen plover]

It's goofy when you remember it was only meant to fracture a carno and run. If it stayed, it died

[dawn falcon]

Not gonna happen with the enlarged 3x multiplier to body fractures

[keen plover]

3x stamina cost can work on carno imo. Since that's a risk. But damn it sucks on teno

[dusky surge]

If it can’t stagger constantly, it has to run

Trading blows is bad for a pachy

It will inevitably lose in that engagement if it tries to kill an adult, full-health teno or Carno

[keen plover]

Game needs to move away from 'meta playables'. There's a reason pachy is played a lot more while omni playerbase has lowered.
My only worry in that case would be if pachy can't kill carno, without any competition, carnos will be played even more.

Like right now, the only counter to carno is pachy

So we'd see servers with only carnos, deinos and stegos

[frail bobcat]

I am not in the stresstest but I heard that the charge turn is worse on the stresstest version. Is that true or do people just have a wrong feeling about this?

[spring hollow]

the isle try not to give large carnivores stat favoritism challenge (impossible)

carno charge is basically impossible to avoid

quick fingers will not help you, you will be killed by the magic invisible flying horns

[frail bobcat]

Well last update, it was quite different

[thin mantle]

It’s catching on

[thin mantle]

However this is only true if you manage to not fracture the target whatsoever, after the 5th ram you should have at least 2, possibly all 3 locations fracturesd, at that point you’ve won, stamina isn’t a factor anymore for you

[thin mantle]

Probably the best way to alleviate this without adding a new playable would be to make tenos good at fighting carnos again, which would mostly come down to axing charges functionality against it and removing damage trades…which mostly comes down to server performance but it still leaves the matchup disgustingly unrewarding

I still miss the U5 Carno matchup…at least it was fun

For both the Carno and the teno

[dusky surge]

what is?

[thin mantle]

The “Pachy only staggers larger targets on fractures” idea…I just like that it’s been perpetuated

[dusky surge]

i really like echoing my own ideas lol

idc if its shameless

[keen plover]

damage trades?

[thin mantle]

Countering a charge with a slam almost if not always results in both damage values being delivered regardless of timing

It’s quite unsatisfying

[keen plover]

Oh, when they both stun each other?

[thin mantle]

That too

[keen plover]

Teno should win that trade lol

Should be teno sided in that regards.

[spring hollow]

the carno didnt need to be changed so why did they do it 💀

[pseudo spruce]

I thought the carnos balance was in quite a good place aswell I was puzzled as to why they would be buffing or nerfing it in anyway

[spring hollow]

also how did the hitbox get more messed up

[alpine plover]

I actually agree with all of these, maybe except also to add to nerf the damage of the charge too

Carnos can still be juked, its just the hitbox artificially making them much more overpowered

[spring hollow]

juking attempts failed, still hit from 10 yards away

[alpine plover]

Because of bugged hitboxes

If the hitboxes were inclined, you can still juke them

[spring hollow]

yeah

as it should be

cant win up close or at distance with carno rn

[alpine plover]

Omni was done dirty tho

Nerf to bleed, then the massive nerf from bucking

Most players cannot play it successfully anymore

[spring hollow]

bruh this automod

anyways its like they have a freaking shotgun on their head

and omni was basically turned into a rat

[obtuse ocean]

They prob needed the shotgun since omnis had teleports

[dusky surge]

100%, hitbox is absurd and stupid

[dusky surge]

omni actually got one of the best buffs it's ever gotten this patch

[alpine plover]

How so

[dusky surge]

players cant buck while low on stam

absolutely nuts change for omni

[obtuse ocean]

Its omni mains, they want it easy not hard

[alpine plover]

Ohhhhh, must've went passed my radar

[dusky surge]

endurance predator omni is TERRIFYING now

the MOMENT you run out of stam, you're essentially dead against an omni pack

[alpine plover]

Okay, I'll do some testing then

So that pretty much any creature

Stego, Rex, Giga, Spino, Allo

Is dead against an Omni pack if they lose all their stam

[dusky surge]

yea

apparently jungle omni is quite good atm

[spring hollow]

the way u play omni now tho is that when u instantly run out of stam u have to go and regain it back which could potentially be dangerous

[alpine plover]

Which is why pack hunting is encouraged

If you have at least one partner

You could tag team turns

One applying pressure, one regen'ing

[dusky surge]

yea, omni can't rely on itself anymore

it can be an even more brutal pack predator now

[timber gazelle]

Am I right that carnos are OP right now? Just to be sure, cus I cant handle a fight with solo carno with my omniraptor teammate...

[spring hollow]

yes their hitboxes are messed up

[dusky surge]

you run out of stam, get 4 omnis latched on your ass, realise how dead you are, die

[spring hollow]

and every carno player is abusing that atm so its best to avoid them as omni for now

[obtuse ocean]

Its supose to kill you easy, the carno. What else you gonna fear as omni ?

[frail bobcat]

Hypsi

[obtuse ocean]

Never seen any yet

[frail bobcat]

They are sneaky at killing omnis

[alpine plover]

You know in a way, it kind of works like legacy raptor somewhat

[dusky surge]

not really

[frail bobcat]

Nah

[dusky surge]

old omni was more like legacy raptor