balance-feedback-discussion

[obtuse ocean]

Well we are all here, so im guessing we all did

[dusky surge]

Oh no

I played when I saw the big croc in EVRIMA

That's the only thing that convinced me to get this game

[thin mantle]

I played through the beta, through prog, and late legacy because I was a literal child controlling a dinosaur, if i was presented with that game now I wouldn't show it the time of day

[keen plover]

Also, 5 allos should technically be the top on average

[dusky surge]

I was always on the fence, always thought the game looked pretty meh from gameplay vids of legacy, then I saw EVRIMA. It looked cool, but barren, nothing truly interesting. Then U3 came out, and it finally convinced me to pick it up.

[keen plover]

Would be a megapack, but 5 allos is a lot lol

[golden coral]

At least with alt you have to plan your attacks somewhat. As opposed to just getting the surprise rear interaction and wait to do or die. Also I don't think rex alt was that terrifying, now giga on the other hand... :p

[thin mantle]

5 allos is one step below apocalyptic

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, against many it will. But just cus your 5, if you do mistakes vs an apex. That should be death or your running

[dusky surge]

I actually went back to legacy and HATED it

[thin mantle]

All of it was bad but gigas alt was....man...that was something else

[dusky surge]

God I hate it, I tried EVERY animal

The most fun animal in legacy from my entire experience playing it? Dryo

[keen plover]

giga alt turn was equal to allos which was odd

Allo iirc had the fastest by a bit though?

[golden coral]

Legacy dryo, aside from burrow, is a fun playable!

[dusky surge]

Dryo doesn't have to engage in this godawful combat system, dryo isn't insanely overpowered, dryo runs around, sees a rex, screams, hides in a burrow while stomps slam overhead

God I loved legacy dryo, it was just horror mode and I adored it

[keen plover]

Oh yeah definitely. Although you should still be able to tank a few hits to survive

[dusky surge]

The moment I didn't have to think about the combat, legacy seemed fun

[frail bobcat]

What are talking about?

[thin mantle]

Whether cherius should demolish stego...and whether legacy was well balanced

[keen plover]

Slightly slower than omni, but the agility was so fun

[obtuse ocean]

No, that was the point in legacy. You couldt, if you can tank hits from apexes, you can just cheese it with trading bites. Mistakes should be punished.

[golden coral]

Not quite sure, honestly. Something about if spino and cheirus defeats stego or not. I can see it go either terribly for them vs stego, or really good, depending on which side of the stego they're trying to get a hold on.

[frail bobcat]

Cherius should not demolish stego and legacy was not balanced

[dusky surge]

I liked running around at night, seeing a fullgrown rex, screaming and SCRAMBLING towards my burrow as footsteps slammed behind me

[thin mantle]

Ding ding ding!

[keen plover]

I meant for the future. Also you definitely should tank hits from an apex? Similar to how omnis can tank hits from a carno. Unless an apex uses a grab of some sort, any basic attack and they should tank it.

[dusky surge]

Also I am in the team of "yea nah cherry ain't killing stego that easily"

[keen plover]

Yeah, that was art. True horror

[dusky surge]

Cherry seems like a bleeder that uses the water to slow its attackers down where it can shred it.

[golden coral]

Though if we get full power stego, I'd argue that it'd be a rather bad matchup for them, like most other apexes should be. I can see spino and cheirus be better vs "mids", and struggle more vs the larger and smaller.

[dusky surge]

It is the only thing I truly liked about legacy

And now we're getting humans in EVRIMA so the final bastion of what drew me to legacy is dead and I don't care anymore

[keen plover]

Reason why I love The Isle. The horror of not knowing what was around

[frail bobcat]

Oportunistic hunter that kills all land playables that venture too deep into the swamps, apart from that its pretty chill

[obtuse ocean]

I mean, if your apex vs apex ofcourse. But no way i see carno running up to a rex and tanking hits.

[keen plover]

I mean, probs 2-3 on a basic bite

[golden coral]

Well, it can survive a stego hit, so it might just be able to take a bite xD

[dusky surge]

Is cherry even a hunter? Seems more like it just eats plants and fish

[obtuse ocean]

lol ok, me and you are totally off in balance terms. One hit for me on a rex is a dead carno.

[keen plover]

[golden coral]

Well, why not eat the babies that come too close as well? :p

[frail bobcat]

Omnivore, so it could try to kill others that venture too deep into the water

[dusky surge]

Doesn't seem like it'd like red meat, tbh

[frail bobcat]

But i am just speculating

[golden coral]

Yeah but that'd mean a rex does 1800 or more on basic bite. Not ideal, I'd say.

[keen plover]

I said basic bite. Not Rexes headswing, nor its hold. Just LMB. No way should a basic bite kill a carno

[frail bobcat]

I would give rex a 900 basic bite

[dusky surge]

Beipi is also an omnivore, but I'm pretty sure devs said omnis are picky with what they like, beipi's case, they like fish as meat, ovis like eggs as meat, but ovi and beipi don't care for red meat or dino corpses

[golden coral]

Eh, honestly fair. I think I agree, I can see cheirus mostly enjoying plants and fish. But I'm sure people would like it if it can eat critters too :D

[keen plover]

700-800, since it won't cost any stamina

[frail bobcat]

750

[dusky surge]

I'm not saying cherry SHOULDN'T slap someone to death, I'm just saying I don't think it'd do it for food

[golden coral]

Yeah, that could work. If we also get powered up stego, that should be fine.

[thin mantle]

As long as it's higher than deinos....one must remember rex doesn't have an invisibility cloak

[golden coral]

I agree. I don't mind a cheirus focusing on plants and fish only. But I've seen people argue it should eat well, everything xD

[obtuse ocean]

Sounds like you want pot balance, where you can just run around like a dumb chicken and tank hits and the more the better cus you win by just beeing more.

[frail bobcat]

7 ton stego with 1400 damage

[dusky surge]

what

[keen plover]

No? You literally have 2 other attacks. Maybe even 3 since alt bite

[thin mantle]

huh?

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i get your point, and u might be right.

[keen plover]

Rex has

• LMB, basic bite
• headswing
• hold / crush
• alt bite (potentially)

[dusky surge]

"I don't think rex one-tapping carno is very fun or well designed"
"I guess u must love PoT huh"

[golden coral]

No, but 8T stego with proper gular armor, and better/more variable attacks including moving ones, and you don't need to overcompensate with extreme damage, while also making the combat a bit more fun in general potentially.

[frail bobcat]

8 ton? Jesus

[obtuse ocean]

I hate pot, but only thing i see from u gen2 is what or i dont understand.

[frail bobcat]

Maybe 7.4 like in novas size chart

[golden coral]

Yes, apparently stegos were quite large. Do remember it's, aside from acro, still the tiniest one xD

But yes, last I heard, estimates put it at 8, but I'm fine with 7.5 or something as well. I do however want the gular armor, mostly because it's hilarious when people go "but tiny stego head weak", when the real animal decided that "ah yes, let me correct that by adding armor to my neck and throat" :p

[keen plover]

Rex is a powerhouse in a 1 v 1, but stamina should be its weakness. You miss too many attacks and don't time them well, then a group of mid tiers should really put the hurt on you.

[obtuse ocean]

You know this, cus the last thing i saw the devs said. Rex was gonna be same as in legacy, just with better stuff. Ive have not seen they say anything more about rex so i can be wrong here.

[golden coral]

Also in the chart, cheirus is heavier than stego, so there's that going for it! :D

[thin mantle]

the fact that rex is already 3 tons heavier proves that's VERY not true

[frail bobcat]

Maybe that stego gets reduction from attacks above it for every part of it (maybe 1x for head), so that stego is the apex that will get hunted by smaller predators

[golden coral]

@frail bobcatYou also got anky, with armor at that, at 9.4T. My beloved stego, even at 7-8T is tiny.

[obtuse ocean]

But that means BB , so if you do a mistake. Thats gg.

[keen plover]

Not really, since there are 3 types of fractures now

[thin mantle]

Against what? Also fractures are variable now

Rex just one taps everything?

[keen plover]

A rex will probably never leg break anything

[obtuse ocean]

They never said anything about weight, they said its gonna be same .

[thin mantle]

Yes they have, many times, it's getting drastically upsized and the last confirmed size was 8 tons

That's as old as 2-3 years ago

[golden coral]

I'd think the plates might have that covered, the armor would be on the underside. But I'd still think the larger and more powerful critters would do well vs stego, but that's in part because I think stego should just negate anything that relies on agility and speed over power and bulk. Meanwhile, trike should do the opposite, be the extremely good 1v1 of the large things, and maybe the only thing that could take a shant charge to the face and be fine.

Cheirus and spino are in a weird spot, since I can't see them do too well vs the other apexes, due to, well, they can defend and hold them off, but, you're still trying to hold off a rex. Meanwhile, something like alberto or allo would struggle, lacking the power to take them on outright, but also lacking the agility to avoid them well.

[frail bobcat]

Yeah, cause stego covers its flanks so well. And trike will fear small-midtier packs

[thin mantle]

Unlikely that it'll fear small tier packs, just that it'll be more vulnerable to them. Smalls being relevant to apexes combatively is already a massive courtesy to them

[frail bobcat]

A big pack of small tiers could mess it up

[thin mantle]

depends on what you mean by "big"

[frail bobcat]

But yes, a normal pack should not dare to attack a trike

[golden coral]

Yeah, keep in mind, I don't mean something should be no threat, or a massive threat, just that they're designed differently to handle different things more or less good or bad.

[frail bobcat]

6+

[thin mantle]

That's about what I mean with it

[obtuse ocean]

I think trike only problem gonna be apexes, or it will just be hell playing it. everyone gonna annoy you lol

[golden coral]

Omnis would like a word with you :p

[thin mantle]

Oh really? That's an undersized pack of omnis ironically, max is 8

[frail bobcat]

Its flanks are exposed as heck

[keen plover]

I mean. What's stopping them? I guess I'm stuck on current omni, but really. What stops 3-4 from dunking on a trike?

[thin mantle]

1 omni would delete a trike from existence with how it works rn

[frail bobcat]

"trike solo kill as a omni!!!!* The isle combat youtuber first vid after trike drops

[keen plover]

No

[golden coral]

Trike, the one animal with both weapons and an armored "weak spot", and whos secondary weakspot is very hard and dangerous to reach, should struggle vs the things that are large, not very agile, and also relies on taking things more or less head on? I don't know about that.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but maybe it get something to help with it. I dont know, i just know i would never play it if small and mid could constantly annoy me : P

[keen plover]

By that logic, small tiers shouldn't hurt mid tiers

[golden coral]

You know, I could see that being done if we added trike right now. Just, pounce the large rear, jump off backwards, rinse and repeat forever :p

[keen plover]

Trike should be at risk to pack hunters imo

[obtuse ocean]

No, im talking about trike. Cus it prob gonna be hella slow.

[golden coral]

Hell, you'd have omnis solo trike by sheer bites most likely

[frail bobcat]

Trike needs to get fast turns for its size

[keen plover]

Which is fair, considering it's immortal 1 v 1

[frail bobcat]

Brachi would like to have a talk with you

[golden coral]

Yes and no, fast turn, but not too fast. Remember, you need to be able to hit it from behind. Since well, taking a trike head on is no go. So you'd want to approach at an angle to bite down on the neck from behind the frill I'd say.

[keen plover]

Technically, mid tiers will be slow in comparison to small tiers

[golden coral]

Are we even getting that as playable? Though I guess cama could work xD

[obtuse ocean]

1v1 means nothing. You just gonna die if they are more then

[frail bobcat]

Yeah

[frail bobcat]

You know how trees and rocks exist

[keen plover]

Well yes? It shouldn't only have to worry about big dinos?

[golden coral]

I mean, currently a few omnis can kill a stego that doesn't "hide", so trike would do even worse.

[golden coral]

Yay!

[keen plover]

What's with Apexes getting the special treatment of not worrying about things smaller than them

[obtuse ocean]

No ofcourse not, but its should be hell taking it down.

[frail bobcat]

Because stego is one of the worst targets for omni tbh

[keen plover]

Yeah. It has a high BP and HP

[frail bobcat]

Its probably gonna be the"easiest" apex to take down for omnis, cause omnis attack flanks and the flanks of trike are not protected

[golden coral]

Yes. Or it should be, but it's really not at this time. Deino is a worse target on land, given no terrain influence, than stego, or at least quite close, I'm pretty sure. I was more so saying, that currently stego struggles, even with terrain, trike would struggle even more. Also the terrain argument isn't ideal at all, it only leads to rather questionable situations.

[golden coral]

Hardest, but simplest.

Or well, not hardest, that'd be shant

[obtuse ocean]

Cus they dont have any luxery of getting away, they need patience to get close. They are big, loud. Only thing they have is power and health more or less. And they need brawl every small or mid tier going for them.

[golden coral]

But almost as hard, and almost as simple, if not quite as simple as shant most likely.

[frail bobcat]

Have fun with 12k bloodpool

[keen plover]

Don't you think the same could be said for mid tiers? Alberto isn't getting away from an omni pack. It's big and likely loud

[obtuse ocean]

yes ofcourse

[golden coral]

Hence hard, vs simple. I'd say stego and anky are the most difficult, trike and shant the simplest. Meanwhile shant is the hardest due to that massive bloodpool, while stego, even at my hopes of 8T is the easiest due to that "low" blood pool. Aside from acro maybe but we don't know what acro will get.

[obtuse ocean]

If your allo and a pack of utahs shows up, its not gonna be "im dead". That would be horrible balance.

[keen plover]

Apexes have the advantage of size, but that doesn't mean they should shrug off smaller creatures. If they are great at 1 v 1s while also beating up packs, then why even bother engaging with them?

[keen plover]

I mean... Sometimes numbers should win

[obtuse ocean]

yea if they have the skill for it.

[dusky surge]

hardest apex for omni isn't shant, it's anky imho

can't do your bleed thing if you can't even pierce the skin in the first place

[keen plover]

I feel like you're hung up on skill too much. If I see 8 omnis as an allo. It's over.

Unless I'm magically somewhere anti omni

[obtuse ocean]

I feel your to hung up on "we are more we win" and still do tons of mistakes, that would be horrible to see or die to. Yea sure, if im allo vs 2 allos i better run.

[keen plover]

bruh

[golden coral]

Yes and no. I'd say the most difficult, not the hardest. Let me clarify. Difficulty = how complicated it is to go about it, the risks, and all that. Hard = the amount of time/effort and damage needed. So anky, due to that armor, adds difficulty. Though I will grant you that in that case, the two are slightly similar, but mostly because anky also has massive weight. Honestly, thinking about it, you might be right that it's hard rather than difficult, but it'd depend on what anky can do as well to fight back.

[obtuse ocean]

If you are talking like 10 utahs vs 1 allo, yea for sure that allo is dead. lol

[golden coral]

Also what are you two on about?

Well, max pack currently of omnis is 8. Assuming that number sticks, and they want omnis to hunt apexes. Well...

[keen plover]

from here I guess

[dusky surge]

i think anky is just outright impossible for omnis to kill tbh

which is fine, i personally wouldn't complain if that were the case

[keen plover]

Nah. Like 5-8

[dusky surge]

The idea of a ton of omnis clambering all over anky and not even being able to scratch it is an incredible visual to me

[thin mantle]

For current omni, 1

[obtuse ocean]

yea i agree, but wouldt be suprise if the allo got 1 utah with him aswell.

[keen plover]

100%

[thin mantle]

Tbf that applies to 90% of animals

[golden coral]

Possible. I'd be more or less fine with it, though I do believe everything should be able to do damage to everything else, so you know, if you find an anky that just stands there, it would eventually die. But that does beg the question of how to handle the sauropods. (unless we go with the idea that omnis scale the brachio or camara to bite its neck or something)

[golden coral]

I don't think you'd fit more than a few on an anky honestly, at least not ours, it's not very wide I don't think.

But it'd would be a hilarious sight yes.

[keen plover]

I kind of expect something similar with trike (not outright getting dominated,) but losing to a pack of allos after a long fight

[dusky surge]

i dont think everything should damage everything, personally. The sheer concept of a velo being able to kill, let alone SCRATCH an anky is kind of fundamentally ridiculous to me

[thin mantle]

The large sauropods should just be immune to most things tbh....

[keen plover]

Yeah, quite disappointing.

[thin mantle]

A wonderful state to find ourselves in :D

[golden coral]

Right, I forget we have those tiny critters too. Okay yes, that's fair.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea totally agree, but it needs to be fear from both sides. If im in a group i dont wanne go "oh look a trike lets kill it" i wanne fight it knowing i can die. It makes the game more fun. Same goes for the trike defending, i wanne play it knowing i can defend myself and/or die.

[golden coral]

But deino oneshot brachi on head when it drinks, obviously!

But yes, I'd be fine with the sauropods and anky being pretty much immune to most things.

[thin mantle]

Of all the small tiers to cap that kind of damage immunity at tho...omni is definitely a prime candidate, it's likely to break it's claws and teeth just attempting to damage it

[keen plover]

Oh 100%. Trike will more than likely be able to one shot allo with one of its attacks. I love high stake fights. So I couldn't agree more

[dusky surge]

Being able to one-shot allo is QUITE a lot of damage

[golden coral]

Now imagine what the omnis would say if we told them you can't hunt anky!

[dusky surge]

Let it happen

[golden coral]

Maybe a rather visually clear charge or something.

[obtuse ocean]

Good, think we are on same page: )

[dusky surge]

Let anky laugh at bleeders

[thin mantle]

"But my OC "

If acro can't even damage a defense mode anky....omni is nothing

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeThough I seem to recall you wanting anky to be vunerable to troodon and other tinies due to access to its underbelly?

[dusky surge]

I would argue even gigas would find trouble scratching anky

[keen plover]

I just despise the idea of apexes being immortal and having no risk. That's bad balancing. Unless you're anky of course 😄

[dusky surge]

At one point, yes, I thought that'd be cool, but if anky can't DO anything to kill the little bastards, it's less so

[keen plover]

I mean a charge like attack should probs end an allo

[golden coral]

Alright!

[thin mantle]

I'm fine with them having no terrible matchups, vulnerabilities sure but adulthood for an apex should be a massive reward, nothing should just stroll by and murder you

[golden coral]

Which would be fine, since it'd likely be rather easy to avoid.

[dusky surge]

I fully embrace the concept of anky being immortal and having no risk because it moves at a turtle pace and just vibes

[thin mantle]

Anky is the inverse of ptera but serves the same purpose xD

[keen plover]

Fair. I can agree on that.

[golden coral]

I think our anky runs these days though, part of the redesign?

[thin mantle]

Which I'm honestly all for....

[keen plover]

I wouldn't make it too easy to avoid since then it might be useless. I'd make it where the cost would be significant... Actually... how would you balance a charge?

[thin mantle]

Doesn't seem to, I think that was an idea in the thinktank but it's pretty concretely in the immortal turtle category now

[thin mantle]

I'd make it basically impossible to turn upon activation actually....it's primary utility would be against targets slow and large enough to reliably land it, allo would be a tougher target to land on but that's fine since it just deletes the allo

[keen plover]

Yes. Let anky players vibe with anky. I hope we actually do get a herbi that isn't food unless it wants to be one (although I'm assuming balance feedback might turn it into one)

[obtuse ocean]

Well need to go, i love discussion with people who disagree with me cus it changes my opinions aswell. I prob sounded like a jerk, but its boring if we all agree : ) cya

[keen plover]

Like stego can be food, but anky should be immortal

[keen plover]

All good man. Take care!

[thin mantle]

Emphasis on CAN

[golden coral]

Honestly, good question. I'd have to decide how I want the trike to charge in the first place I think, but I'd design it for being good vs the other large things, since I want trike to kind of be the ultimate "apex killer" in a sense. So if the charge is sufficient to land on those slower and larger critters, it'd probably work okay on allo and similar, and then just go down to being pointless because things get more and more agile and faster. But like pachy, that has a visual cue (as much as people dislike tap ram, but thats another issue), but something like that? Some sort of movement you can see, and well, also, if you know the trike can charge, why would you be so close in front of it's face? I'm fine with the charge being fast to trigger/efficient, since I kind of like the idea of a shorter, more "lunge" style attack than pachys current "run after them".

[golden coral]

Wait, where are you getting this from? We're stuck with the weird design, aren't we? Or are you just thinking of the concept?

[keen plover]

Yeah. Pretty much. Although... What other creatures can really hunt trike apart from allo and omni packs? (big assumption on those 2) Acro, alberto? I know the apexes, but what else?

[thin mantle]

Mostly the concept art, it borderline doesn't move in that and that's the most up to date form of it, aside from that we've never seen it run

[golden coral]

?!?! xD

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't make it's list of predators large, some creatures can be fine having only a couple threats once adulthood is reached

Omnis....maybe allos but that's a terrible idea....rex....maybe acros

[keen plover]

I know. I was trying to think of creatues that can mechanically

[golden coral]

I'd argue that omnis would do great, allo and alberto might, and then well, anything that can get to it's neck from behind before it can react and has the power to take advantage of that.

[thin mantle]

Mechancially speaking not many, the ones I listed probably would be designed to, acro being incredibly speculative but there's almost no doubt rex will be designed with trike in mind

[golden coral]

True, but still, concept art. As cool as it looks, with the anky just chilling, I don't know how well it'll translate into game, but maybe by the time we get it, it'll be more acceptable because we have a bigger roster and all that.

[keen plover]

That could work. Although, it not working on smaller critters is fair.

[keen plover]

Stego can be food, as in it's tough, but you can kill it. Anky should be untouchable unless you're an apex pair

[azure crescent]

(Or maybe acro pair because i need an acro that can punch up well in pairs to live)

[thin mantle]

Yeah I know....concept art...but when it's quite literally the only thing I have it's the only thing I go on :p
Translating anky into game should be incredibly simple, make it have passive damage negation to most things, with a stance designed for apexes, high damage high fracture, moves like a snail....

[golden coral]

Oh alright, fine! Anky is admittedly even more trouble to get to than stego, so I guess I'll have to accept that :D

[thin mantle]

Acro punching up? Punching up to what?

It's giga sized

[azure crescent]

It isn’t

It’s like 6 something tons

[golden coral]

If you give it my idea of CC resistances, hunting the other two apexes, giga and rex xD

[thin mantle]

Based on every representation we've gotten of it in the past 2 years it's easily comparable

[golden coral]

And yeah, acro isn't as large as giga

[azure crescent]

The “apexes” are a good deal bigger than acro

[thin mantle]

What's this based on?

[azure crescent]

Acro is just very muscle-y, which makes it look bigger

Comparison with para

• nova’s charts

[golden coral]

Novas chart says giga 8.3, acro 5.8T

[azure crescent]

Tap’s art also shows acro being the same size as para

Around that size range

[golden coral]

And while there's probably a possibility of acro getting powered up a little, like stego. Giga is even larger I think, or so estimates might have it.

[thin mantle]

Taps art also shows acro being the same size as giga in ankys art...so I'm not sure

[azure crescent]

That anky is squatting down

[golden coral]

I'd have to ask Aken what the latest news are on how large gigas get. But apparently they had a fancy claw to kick stuff with :p (or at least something in that general group of critters does)

[azure crescent]

And anky is generally not very tall

[azure crescent]

9.6 tons for newest irl giga sizes

[thin mantle]

I'm not at all going off height as much as just...size, especially since in the last panel it's standing up

[azure crescent]

In that same panel the acros are both very upright

Which also makes them look bigger

All in all, acro should be around para sized, and a good brawler

[thin mantle]

Like seriously I cannot tell which one is bigger based on this artwork

[azure crescent]

I made a theoretical stat sheet for acro a while back, i can share that if you’d like

[dusky surge]

i want them to throw me a curveball with acro and make it the nocturnal apex

idk if it'd happen but i think it'd be cool

[thin mantle]

Kinda same, especially if it's kept at a smaller size

Which I hope it is but I'm not sure it will be

[azure crescent]

Acro is very upright, giga very hunched down, the first anky is still somewhat crouched down, while the second is lunging upward

Acro is def atleast slightly smaller

[thin mantle]

I'm not blinded by posturing, I'm capable of envisioning what they'd look like postured similarly, especially since in the prior panels they were postured more hunched over

[azure crescent]

Acro should have atleast 1 resistance imo

That thick skin needs use

[thin mantle]

Like this is as close a comparison as it gets

[azure crescent]

Which is why i prefer the acro-para one

[thin mantle]

There's not really a reason to prefer one to the other especially since this displays a greater max size, the one in paras could be a sub

Like ideally I prefer the acro para one as well I just don't know which is planned for

[frail bobcat]

What are we talking about now?

[azure crescent]

I prefer the para because both are upright

I don’t see why the para would be a sub

[thin mantle]

Not the para, the acro

Since in anky's concept art it's much larger

[azure crescent]

Same question

[keen plover]

frac or bleed?

[azure crescent]

I don’t see why the acro would be a sub

[thin mantle]

Because its smaller than in anky's concept art

[azure crescent]

I wanna go with frac so it can somewhat have a rivalry with pachyrhino

[frail bobcat]

Tapwing does not get sizes corrrect

[azure crescent]

Yeah

[keen plover]

Fair, since we know giga will have bleed res

[golden coral]

Make it the apex that hunts the other three carni apexes!

Nocturnal, CC resistant.

[azure crescent]

THIS

[dusky surge]

no thats probably not gonna happen lmao

its not even an apex, i just wanted it to be an "apex" of nighttime

[frail bobcat]

How big is acro again?

[thin mantle]

I tend to just go off maximum sizes and assume anything inconsistently smaller is a sub or juvi, if CA's are literally not to be trusted as far as size I honestly don't see how they're useful

[azure crescent]

6 tons pretty much

[frail bobcat]

This

[dusky surge]

so that people don't go "why the hell would i play acro when giga is right there"

acro, imho, should not be trying to throw down with any of the big 3

he gets melted and dies

[azure crescent]

Then you’d look at nova’s charts, which also show it being smaller

[keen plover]

In pairs, it can definitely hunt the generally solitary rex

[golden coral]

Probably not, but I think it would be really cool. Sort of like how I want something immune to all venom with good NV that just goes "Oh, you're a dilo or troodon, the terror of the night to all things? Nice to meet you, I exist to end your existance. Have a nice night!"

[azure crescent]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

he uses nighttime to hunt down animals that no longer have the advantage of vision

[golden coral]

Kissesn did say she considered it an apex to be fair, for what that's worth.

[azure crescent]

Making acro the brawler of its tier would also seperate it from giga

[thin mantle]

Nova's charts and I have a weird relationship

[azure crescent]

Because pseudo apex does not exist for the devs

[golden coral]

But what does that mean in game terms then? :D

[frail bobcat]

Kissen also said that para has no reason to try and fight a allo once

[golden coral]

Yes but people really misunderstood that one

[thin mantle]

Yeah it was about preferences...nesting is obviously a thing

[azure crescent]

I genuinely don’t know, i can’t see their reasoning behind this

[golden coral]

So with all due respect, I don't think those are neccesarily comparable. Though of course, considering something, does not mean it'll be that way.

The para/allo thing was basically Kissen saying "Why fight if you don't have to, don't be stupid and risk damage for no good reason"

I know this is an alien concept to most players, so I guess I can understand the confusion

[thin mantle]

Beat it up >:D

[keen plover]

Tbf, we might get apex sized acro and mid tier sized para. Which is why she might have said that? But then concept para is huge so

[azure crescent]

I hope none of those happen

Both should be around the 6t mark

Acro should have a rivalry with like pachyrhino

Make it frac resistant, and somewhat of a brawler for its size

[golden coral]

Well, we have shant. I don't see a reason to make para full size, even if it apparently were close to shant size itself

[azure crescent]

The biggest reliable para size is 12 t

[golden coral]

So I could see para being more of a "mid", for good or ill, but to be fair, it's the coolest hadro, it has sonic weaponry! (or so I hope)

[azure crescent]

Compared to 16t smaller estimate shant

[thin mantle]

6 ton para isn't comparable to a 14 ton shant...unless you mean FULL size where it's in the 12-13 range

[frail bobcat]

Balance wise? Why would a para even be trying to go toe to toe with carnivores of that size?
How can you misunderstand that?

[azure crescent]

16 ton now

[golden coral]

I think I've heard of bigger ones, but even so, that's not you know, very far away. That's still a very large para, larger than most things in the game xD

[thin mantle]

Balance wise it'd absolutely have reason to fight off an allo

[azure crescent]

Footprint scaling isn’t very reliable

[golden coral]

Well yes, I meant full size of course. :p

[frail bobcat]

I just quoted kissen, that sentence cant be misunderstood

[azure crescent]

Full size shant being 21 tons 😰

[golden coral]

That is a big cow!

[azure crescent]

Bigger than cama

[frail bobcat]

I just hope that para just destroys a singular allo

[golden coral]

Because I think it was clarified that she meant there's no reason to go toe to toe with something of a size that has the ability to actually inflict proper damage on you.

[thin mantle]

That's such an easy quote to misunderstand imo. The later clarification is what fixes it, the og statement could be read so many ways

[azure crescent]

The og statement is very poorly worded

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[golden coral]

Implying that while the para can destroy the allo, the balance is such that the allo still can pay it back quite well.

[thin mantle]

"Why would you even try" is implicative of assured failure, the later clarification amends this

[golden coral]

And yes, the statement was very vague, which is why we had discussions about what it meant and all the fun memes at that xD

[thin mantle]

Good times :D

[frail bobcat]

Back to the acro discussion

[azure crescent]

Gateway no longer being planned for U6

[thin mantle]

Yeah big sad, was hoping to have motivation to play the game

[frail bobcat]

Me, you and spinex on the bridge

[azure crescent]

Fr

[golden coral]

I do like how shant is a sauropod that grew tired of the long neck and decided to be more compact :p

[azure crescent]

I need to see a shant and a cama duke it out when they come

[thin mantle]

Basically

[thin mantle]

I'm ashamed I've literally never thought of that interaction

How does that even work?

[azure crescent]

Both similarly sized

[thin mantle]

But....how does that even work?

[azure crescent]

A shant can push around a cama, and vice versa

[keen plover]

Cama wins that one 🦾

[golden coral]

They'll just shove each other around and not much more :p

[azure crescent]

Hm. A lot of shoves i’d assume

Like the one shown in the shant vs shant panel

[golden coral]

Which we kind of need for sauropod interactions I'd say

[thin mantle]

Makes sense....hopefully

[azure crescent]

Sauropods should be able to attack from all general directions

Specially bronto with its neck

Necks should be a massive weak point, except in bronto

Curious to see if you can move sauropod’s necks around to avoid being bit

[golden coral]

Just be brachio and problem solved!

[thin mantle]

One of the few things bob does right

[azure crescent]

Fr

[azure crescent]

Which is why i’m not really a fan of brachi tbh

[golden coral]

Aww. And here its my favourite of the ones we get I think.

[azure crescent]

Huge sauropods are cool and all, but 2 big sauropods and a mid tier one is enough

Bronto, cama and magy

Maybe brachi, but it’d mostly be bigger cama

AI brachi and diplo are fine tho

[golden coral]

Replace cama with brachio then! :p

I dislike it since legacy where it quite frankly, looks rather strange, and moves in an outright terrifying way :p

[azure crescent]

I think that’s an issue of the skin, size and anims

But yea i’m fine with brachi over cama

Either one works fine imo

Just prefer cama as it’s more beatable while still being a beast

[golden coral]

Most likely yes. I would still like brachio because Jurassic Park. But Cama might be just fine if it "feels" better in Evrima.

[hasty coyote]

@alpine plover That is how it works, the hitboxes are just a bit finicky and specific. Body just takes precedence over the others, so if you ram too close you will only get body fractures. Generally, the best ways to get the other fractures in my experience is to aim at the specific angle and ram early to not clip into the target with the ram. If the start of your ram is on target, then it will likely clip the hitbox into the body and cause a body fracture, so you need to ram with some distance to make sure it doesnt clip in. For the ways I can describe how to aim it:

Carno: aim perpendicular to the thighs and release when you have at least a couple feet of distance. For the head fracture, you have to hit them head-on and have good timing. A body fracture or being slightly above makes it easier since you're on level with the head instead of potentially clipping into the body.

Utah: similar story with the legs, aim perpendicular and have some distance. With the head, just hit them head on and release early enough to hit the head and not clip into the body. However, its also much harder to hit a moving utah, since they're agile and theres likely to be a visual bug that looks like you hit them, but you didn't. If you see a utah sliding across the ground, then you actually missed, they will stop immediately after hitting the ground if you hit them. Generally, your best bet is to alt swing them down, then go for an easy ram.

[hexed sorrel]

who are the people who disagreed with the last balance feedback

because water resistance should be a thing

[golden coral]

At what point? For which playables? How would you decide when to apply it and not?

[hasty coyote]

Honestly, I also don't see much use for it, but I understand why some people want it. But its 95% purely because of deino v stego, no other matchup will have things on land attacking things in the water, unless they are both semi-aquatic. Especially since stego is the only thing with the range to attack things in the water from land and the strength to not just be bullied by what is in the water.

Plus, if you give it to all semi-aquatics, then that just makes water combat extremely slow for no reason. Like, croc v croc is already 16 bites, now imagine it being doubled to 32💀

[golden coral]

@hasty coyoteI could see it being a thing for everyone except the semiaquatics, but I think it'd be more reasonable to just apply some extra stam drain on using attacks when in wading depth (when you're affected enough to slow down). Since that also seems like something that should not apply to semiaquatics, being more capable of moving in water in the first place.

[hasty coyote]

That works, but I still only see it being useful in very niche scenarios. So I'll just sit on the fence and not care about this one unless it starts to impact something.

[hexed sorrel]

I guess you wouldnt need to slow down bites that much, but swinging something that has that much surface area would slow it down immensely

[thin mantle]

@somber sphinx Based

[somber sphinx]

😎

[tall bronze]

Combo Pachy is good Pachy. Also on a related note....it also needs the slam's recovery time to be fixed ;C

You slam, shake your head, finish the animation......THEN you can move. There's an extra couple of seconds of just standing their idle unable to do anything ;0;

[dusky surge]

I don’t see the problem with that

Makes it a combo finisher, not a combo extender

[tall bronze]

Nonono I mean the actual animation of the headslam ends and you go back to the idle "not doing anything" animation, but you're still locked in place for a couple seconds

Despite the attack/animation ending already

I'm guessing it's just an oversight

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, the main issue I see with the self-stun is the utah you hit immediately pouncing on you or getting a free bite on you. So it would either need to do fracture or not have the stun.

[fresh laurel]

Been a while since i was here

[dusky surge]

@normal belfry Dryo's dodge is getting a complete rework, turning it more into a speed boost in any direction than a dodge and making it a lot more fluid to use

[short bison]

they adding burrowing w that?

[dusky surge]

no confirmation

[short bison]

rip

[thin mantle]

Why would dryo burrow?

[keen plover]

I mean, why not?

I get that people don't want dryo to burrow and that it can't 'defend' its burrow

But it's pretty useful to have to nest with + have another option to hide

[thin mantle]

Dryo has like…0 reason to put itself underground

It disregards literally every advantage dryo has as an animal

[keen plover]

I mean, nesting. Smaller dryos are next to worthless.

Also a safe spot to rest

[thin mantle]

At least outside of a burrow they can hide in bushes….

[keen plover]

Yeah, but nesting. Like literally making a nest in the burrow

[thin mantle]

It’s a worse idea in basically every regard compared to doing so above ground

[keen plover]

How?

All the juvis literally stay in one hole together

[hasty coyote]

its like a rabbit, most things can't reach you there so its pretty safe.

[thin mantle]

But nothing will find you if you quite literally sit in any bush in the game, there are a lot of predators that’ll be able to fit in burrows, juvis of most species especially they are sitting ducks if any of those things decide to happen upon your burrow, if you were in a bush you’re both more hidden and can spot threats easier on an individual basis instead of relying on scouts or lookouts, the only thing that you are protected from in a burrow are threats you can’t run from, which is irrelevant for dryo because there’s only 1 threat bigger than you that you can’t run from….and even then you can still run from it using jukes gaps rocks etc….

Like I have no issue with dryo being a burrow invader but it having the ability to construct burrows encourages it to do the opposite of what makes dryo good

Like there’s a reason why proto is the perfect candidate for burrowing, it’s mobility challenged above ground and it’s not particularly powerful in the grand scheme of the things, but it’s shield head allows it to go full wombat mode and simply deny entry to anything trying to enter

Same with hamalo to an extent, and Minmi

[keen plover]

That's assuming anyone can find your burrow in the first place. But even then, having a hole is infinitely better than a bush, since you can actually develop it. I think they'll even allow you to have multiple openings. Yes an adult dryo has no need for a burrow, yet for nesting and resting, it's a very good tool. Having all your juvis in one spot is great

It has use cases and would be a neat addition to dryo

[thin mantle]

Well at that point why not give burrow to literally any animal with arms?

[hasty coyote]

dryo could also go full meercat mode and have like 7 different exits and entrances. So you run in, and keep running though to juke out basically anything able to fit in there.

And if they don't do that, you can't diss dryo's biteforce. That thing can peck to death most juvies who try to face tank it, especially those small enough to try and invade burrows. Plus, many things can find you in a bush if they land 1 attack, bleed makes it very easy to track.

Lastly, it provides a safer area for dryo to chill a bit. Instead of panicking 24/7 looking everywhere, you can at least be a bit more calm around the burrow since you know you're safe from a good chunk of the roster.

[thin mantle]

I want to make it clear that I’m not against enriching playables with abilities that aren’t necessarily the best for them, but at a certain point we need to think about why we’re giving animals the abilities they have

[keen plover]

I don't even know how to reply to this 💀

[tall bronze]

Perhaps it's more of a playstyle thing. Dryo could choose to either be more evasive or defensive, maybe even perks to help guide whatever one you choose.

[hasty coyote]

Because most already have ways to keep them safe. If dryo could only run and use the dodge, its basically just a smaller gali. Giving it burrow makes it more unique and have a playstyle more akin to a rabbit.

[tall bronze]

Plus it goes well with the idea of smaller stuff having lots O' abilities

[thin mantle]

Dryo does to, it can run away :p
Plus at that point why not give burrowing to velo as well? It can’t defend itself from those larger threats the same as dryo can’t

[tall bronze]

It seems awkward to enter burrows. Too long

[hasty coyote]

velo could have climbing instead, since that also allows it to be one of the few arboreal creatures.

[tall bronze]

Herrera's lil buddy

[keen plover]

Velo glide

[tall bronze]

[keen plover]

😁

Come on, that would be so fun

[thin mantle]

Well then we could also give climbing to dryo….like these reasonings are so shallow I don’t see a reason for any creature to NOT have these mechanics

[tall bronze]

Needs time to marinate with me

[keen plover]

If velo were to have 1 mechanic, gliding would be it for me

Idk where I heard it first, but I like it

[thin mantle]

“Controlled fall” velo is based

[dusky surge]

i think velo should be allowed to climb and in burrows tbh

[tall bronze]

One issue I see with that is it could make feathers for it mandatory despite feathers being said to be optional

[dusky surge]

make velo everywhere predator pls

[tall bronze]

Unless......skin gliding Velo

[thin mantle]

Make the trade off for the cosmetic of not having feathers be a lack of viability

[keen plover]

no

[hasty coyote]

you wanted a bat, heres you bat

[thin mantle]

Same with a a hornless Carno or clawless Utah

[tall bronze]

[keen plover]

2 velo types

Sounds like pot though

[tall bronze]

Like ye olde days of Spino A and B

[thin mantle]

Or just….non viable and viable velo

[keen plover]

Velo needs a touchup anyway imo

[keen plover]

Yes

[tall bronze]

Coconut Crab Velo

You heard me

[thin mantle]

Velo with the finger strength to break a rexes femur

[tall bronze]

I do have to agree though that it is quite odd for Dryo to get 2 abilities that fail to synergize with each other. Not that all abilities need to per se, but more so they actually go against one another.

I much prefer the original idea for Dryo where it simply refurbished burrows, but it did not make them.

[thin mantle]

That’s basically my point, the only reason to give dryo burrowing are entirely generic reasons that apply to literally all animals. Not to mention that it conflicts with dryo more than almost any other animal

[tall bronze]

I can see it being temporary in a way.

Dryo gets full on burrowing to act as the base for it, more proper burrowers are added, Dryo loses the ability to make burrows now that other burrowers are present.

[thin mantle]

Maybe…I just….idk…unironically climbing is a more synergistic ability for dryo

Not that I even want that necessarily

I’d prefer rocky terrain dryo

Which is why I love its new dash

Plays perfectly into dryos strengths

Lemme put it to you this way, I want dryo to burrow, but I want it to burrow THROUGH objects to create more highways for it to run through in its region

Further enhancing its juke potential

[tall bronze]

Hear me out

Dryo burrows multiple dens....these dens have sky-facing openings, basically just holes

It can make these all in close proximity to one another.....things that run into these risk tripping/leg injury

Dryo zig zags around its own field of holes to throw off predators, even in open plains.

[slim dragon]

@naive furnace Our raptor is being renamed "Omniraptor" because it is a fictional species. Accurate utahraptor will probably be added later.

[tranquil pawn]

Mate doesn't realize how godamn long 8 seconds is in a fight, 3 seconds could determine life or death

[fresh laurel]

@short bison 8 seconds of cooldown is waaay too much
if you dont want pachy spamming, wouldnt increasing charge cost a tad be better or something (not that pachy needs that either)

[short bison]

right now a good pachy can get a leg frac as long as it rams the carno and gets it in the stun animation. after doing so, the pachy can ram over and over again w the carno having no way of hitting the pachy due to leg frac/attack prioritization. i suppose another solution could be changing the attack prioritization but i feel like that would be too detrimental to pachy so id rather have the cooldown raised so the carno has a chance to at least get away.

[fresh laurel]

Pretty sure carno should be out trading pachy
Most i seen have no problems fighting off a persistent pachy

[short bison]

idk its pretty easy to stun lock a carno and kill it

[fresh laurel]

Theres a stun cd
You cant stun lock

[short bison]

yea its not an actual stun lock but its literally 5 seconds which is nothin

[fresh laurel]

Carno can still move pretty ok with a broken leg too
Possible to try and juke the pachy

[short bison]

not w leg frac

[fresh laurel]

Saves you more than you think

[fresh laurel]

Its possible

[short bison]

yea u can juke w leg frac but it wont help you much

[fresh laurel]

Helps a lot

[hollow canyon]

@naive furnace Just for the record - the Utahraptor in game weighs 450kg which is an equivalent of 1000lbs so technically it's already bigger than that figure. 23ft is quite a bit too long for that animal though.

This might be of interest to you however: the current Utahraptor is going to be renamed to "Omniraptor" in future and the real life Utahraptor is going to be introduced next to it as another playable.

[hasty coyote]

Pachy has to land like 18 attacks to kill a carno, which is like 80% of pachy’s stam. So you need multiple pachies or a really big skill difference for pachy to kill a carno. While carno just needs to hit 3-4 bites and it kills pachy.

Plus, there are ways to avoid being leg fractured in the first place. Pachy has to be perpendicular to the carno, need the right spacing, and hit in the right spot to actually get the leg fracture. So all you need to do as carno is face the pachy or sprint when it gets close to dodge the ram.

[neon willow]

I suppose it depends. If dryo is meant to really outrun/outmaneuver things, then burrowing is the wrong mechanic. But if the goal is to make dryo like a rabbit-- fast, maneuverable, but ultimately ending the fight is dependent on getting to a burrow-- then burrowing could be useful. Especially if burrows exclude certain sizes based on the dino that makes it-- plenty of carnivores that eat rabbit or meerkat can't actually fit in their burrows

If the intent is to make dryo more dependent on burrows, though, it will need to be more of a sprinter with limited stamina. Gotta get to that burrow before you run out of steam

Part of dryo's current issue is that the dodge is kinda bad, but the result is that dryo interacting with other playables tends to be just "how long can I juke them before they finally get me, because I can't get away"

[thin mantle]

The only way this works is if dryo has a minimum of two exits for its burrows and is buffed up with attacks or just damage that allow it to kill most juvis since they’ll be able to just go right down into its burrows

[neon willow]

Dryo already kinda can kill most juvis... At least ones smaller than dryo that can fit into burrows. I forget it's bite force, but it's surprisingly a lot for its size, even after nerf

[hasty coyote]

its still 20 damage, which is a good amount for it. Most things that can fit in its burrow likely won't be able to face tank it. Those that can face tank it, dryo can just run from instead.

[wraith relic]

Alright how was that for a calculated post

[golden coral]

@wraith relicIt does the most bleed, technically (aside from omni pounce). It's more so that currently, things die to damage rather than bleed because well, nothing else can handle a bunch of swings. Same with how deino does a lot of bleed for what it is, but you still are far more likely to die to damage in most cases.

Though I guess you could treat stego swing like omni pounce and up the bleed damage in relation to the raw damage, and see how that goes.

[slim dragon]

I disagrer with tail swing dealing bleed instead of raw damage. The entire point of the attack is to puncture your opponents lungs and kill them instantly. Sure that would make them bleed a lot, but that's not the main goal.

[golden coral]

Could make the argument for internal bleeding possibly? As opposed to more raw damage and just tearing something apart? I'm mostly thinking trike vs stego here, though there's plenty of other differences so bleed vs damge being one of them is not neccesary.

[slim dragon]

We gotta agree on what raw damage is first, for me stego and trike's attack are very similarrm in what they do to their opponent, so they should do the same sort of damage.

I like to think about it like in most rpgs :
Piercing attacks deal raw damage
Slashing attacks deal bleed
Blunt attacks deal fracture

[golden coral]

Hm, that's a fair point. And yeah, they are similar, so I'm fine with them having the same kind of damage. Though I could see trike generally doing a bit more due to being a brawler that gets in there and presses the attack, opposed to stego that would just do an attack and keep distance. It also depends on if we get more proper stego swings, cause then you could argue it might be more of a slashing attack for it, as opposed to trikes focused attacks, being piercing?

[dusky surge]

You can also and have armour be impacted differently by different attacks

Slashing is pretty pathetic against armour, piercing is decent and blunt is quite effective

[slim dragon]

Well uh
If we wanted to make things realistic regarding how stego uses its tail, it would just deal very low damage
The thagomizers are anything but sharp

[golden coral]

True, but I meant more so in that if stego does proper swings, it's more akin to slashing than piercing, if you go with the whole "AoE" swing as opposed to trikes direct engagement?

[slim dragon]

If stego did swings the thagomizers would pierce their target
That's how they are designed

[hasty coyote]

Another issue with making stego a bleeder is that bleed generally is awful for defense. It will generally kill your attacker after you die, unless it deals so much bleed that it can kill before it dies.

[golden coral]

That is very true, bleed is rather terrible for defense, though at least that is in part because well, no one really cares about dying, much less if they get the kill first at that.

[hollow canyon]

That's only half true - bleed is far more potent against animals that move around lot and those are typically the ones attacking. The issue in this specific case might be that you will have to also outdamage your opponent in a prolonged combat to make that work.

Admittedly this could potentially be addressed by increasing Stego's attack rate while decreasing its damage.

[hollow canyon]

@cedar cave This suggestion seems kind of nice however the issue with it is that it would be a living hell to implement in a multiplayer game unless you restrict it so that only one Deino can hold onto the prey item. Multiple Deinos latching onto anything is a big no-no. Otherwise I think it's a decent idea to let Deinos slow bigger animals that way.

@primal heart This is a general problem with Carno and its animation. It has the most precise bite socket/hitbox in the game right now and on top of that the furthest point where its attack lands is slightly below where you're looking. This has caused in the past(before the hitbox was made smaller and more precise) to extend Carno's attack range some 10 inches in front of its face and let it bite things from afar. It will need some changes but Idk what exactly they'll be doing about it.

Also - did the Utah bite land there when you attacked the Carno below its tail?

[primal heart]

Yes,many skilld Utha player can do so.Utha now can Can attack carno with precision and without fear

[hollow canyon]

Oh yea, Utah absolutely dumpsters Carno right now

and it seems that its bite works a bit questionably, I've always had the impression that it was landing when it shouldn't really but

this is kind of a confirmation of that

[primal heart]

Yep,Carno has been poor at hitting.Especially if other species have a wide range of attacks.

[hollow canyon]

Yes it's also been nerfed like half a dozen of times in other ways

it's more vulnerable to bleed than any other animals and has a relatively shorter hunger time than its main competitors

[primal heart]

True.
I've been playing this game since evrima release,I can say I've felt every nerf of carno
Playing carno alone is not a good choice right now.

[hollow canyon]

It is a very, very bad choice, I'd tried it for roughly 2 hours after update 5 released -> saw how bad it was -> unalived it -> grew a Utah.

haven't touched it since

Honestly it's probably the biggest waste of time in terms of what you get per time spent growing in the game. Unless you group up when it suddenly gets much better.

[primal heart]

And Utha,it's sooo easy to grow.one meal to adult.

[hollow canyon]

yea, precisely, courtesy of half a dozen of buffs or so that it has received over the past months

when the only thing it needed was a fix to its pounce

this is pretty much the effect of doing balance changes once per half a year

Utah got dumpstered in the same way Carno did now back in ~August 2021

then it took almost a year for it to get fixed

[primal heart]

I think they simply increased the pounc range and covered up previous bugs

By buff Utha and nerf carno several times,the ecological niche of the two species has reversed

The current pounce is almost no miss, believe stegosaurus players know

It would be very difficult for a stego to hit a Utah in the air

[hollow canyon]

nah, they fixed a few bugs that pounce had around it, this ability used to cause you to get suspended in the air at times and not register when you were hitting the target which led to Utah getting killed because of the recovery after missing the pounce.

Now the recovery has been severely shortened. The bugs around the pounce got largely fixed.

On top of it getting a biteforce buff iirc

and all the previous buffs it has received over the past months

and Carno getting its bleed resistance thrown into the dumpster back when those changes occured

[primal heart]

This bug still exists when Utah pounced on each other and when against pachy

[primal heart]

[hollow canyon]

In these cases it's probably down to how small the hitboxes of those animals are

[hollow canyon]

yea it was believed that Carno handled bleed to well while standing

Each animal in the game has the same bleed resistance

with exception of Deino and Carno

where the former has a better bleed resistance than all the other animals

[dusky surge]

not true

[hollow canyon]

Which part isn't true?

[dusky surge]

carno has the exact same bleed resist as everyone else

(except deino ofc)

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's not the bleed resistance

[primal heart]

So it just have a smaller blood pool？

[dusky surge]

he has different bleed modifiers, but his bleed resist stat is exactly the same (it's 0)

[hollow canyon]

it's something else, effectively Carno loses more blood than others

Yes - the bleed modifiers

[dusky surge]

no, not blood pool

[hollow canyon]

effectively it loses more blood while standing and walking and trotting

than any other animal

[dusky surge]

blood = weight universally for all animals

[hollow canyon]

which is - exactly what was called bleed resistance in legacy

[primal heart]

Actually it doesn't matter, the fact is that carno is very, very vulnerable to a bloody attack.

[hollow canyon]

the fact that its running "bleed resistance" wasn't changed

[primal heart]

We just hope the production team can fix that

[hollow canyon]

doesn't mean that it effectively doesn't bleed like a pig from a scratch

Idk what you internally call the bleed "resistance" for each specific type of movement for an animal but that's literally the legacy bleed resist - the amount of blood lost during a specific type of movement

the fact that there was another random mechanic that just halved this for Deino on top of that doesn't really matter

Idk why that was even added, the bleed resist for each type of movement could've just been halved for Deino

now we have two mechanics that effectively do the same thing

[dusky surge]

it isnt what bleed resist is anymore, so i dont refer to it as such

[hollow canyon]

I will keep referring to it as such

unless you give me a specific name for it then I might change

[dusky surge]

bleed movement modifiers, bleed modifiers or even just bleed mods if u want to make it super simple

[hollow canyon]

bleed modifiers are something else

bleed modifier is e.g. Utah pounce's modifier of x3

while all the other attacks have x1

[dusky surge]

then bleed movement mods

effects how bleed reacts to movement

[hollow canyon]

mods doesn't fit that imo, it's literally how well an animal resists bleeding while moving a different type

unless it has an official name I will keep calling it that

again - idk why these are two different mechanics

they both do the same thing at the end of the day

[hollow canyon]

they will be able to fix it, easily at that

it's not a difficult thing to change, will likely be easier than fixing a bite hitbox

the issue is that it first needs to be clear that it's a problem

[primal heart]

Yes, I also believe that a lot of players have responded to this question

[hollow canyon]

hmm I don't think that all that many people mention it as a problem

[primal heart]

Hopefully they can fix this in U6

[hollow canyon]

in all the honesty - Carno is an oppressive animal in the current roster whenever it's balanced

this is basically what happens when you introduce a dedicated small game hunter in a game full of small animals

Carno is basically sitting by a one, big buffet

and whenever it is balanced as it should be - that is, it's good at killing small things

it causes the community to cry out

[primal heart]

In fact, I think most players who like large carnivores can only play carno, which increases the pressure on the species and weakens it all the time

And I think the balance is so fragile when there are only so many species to play with that it doesn't make sense to make too many adjustments, even if there are some unreasonable ones.

When Ceratosaurus came along, the current balance had to be drastically altered.

[hollow canyon]

Deino

which is actually a broken, borderline immortal thing that instakills 3/4 of the roster with a single click.

I've only been playing Deino for the past weeks(whenever I was playing the game at all)

[primal heart]

Deino is not a regular, large predator that legacy players would expect

[hollow canyon]

I know it's not a theropod

I will be honest - I don't like any of the animals on the roster very much, Tenonto is cool to play due to the plethora of its attacks

but Carno's general playstyle is the most appealing to me

I haven't played it much this year though

and completely stopped playing it in U5 cause it's just bad and takes up way too much effort for what it has to offer

I can do much more with a Utah while putting pretty much no effort into growing it

so why bother with Carno?

Where Utah also just kills every other animal much better than Carno does(maybe except Pachy but some people question that too)

[primal heart]

Yep,Utha(omin) is more …“convenience”

You can do things with utha that carno can't.

Hope they can change that, but it would be better if they updated it faster.

[brisk bloom]

#balance-feedback message
Regarding bary, what is suggested leans alot into austro's abilities. i have a far better option in mind but it is 100% reliant on how wading is handled.
in all honesty i have little to base this off, but i will assume wading includes baryonx hovering over the edges of rivers and getting different signs which would indicate how close the prey, or predator is. this would function like fishing often seen in other games, except far more immersive and instead of putting a fishing rod on the line, youre putting yourself on the line. the thing determining how strong of a sign you get (which could be visual like deinos or it could use other senses) could be the weight of the creature underwater, so that you could be accustomed to know what is, for example, an elite fish compared to a deino. i think this kills two birds with one stone as it could function for creatures like spinos too.

i think a mix of a visual and sound sensation which could get louder based on the underwater creatures size and faster based on how close it is

this way the baryonx still has the huge threat of deinos but experienced players who know their way around the dino can avoid that threat 80% of the time

[dull junco]

So I know any time someone mentions making deinosuchus get more chances to get prey, a ton of people just automatically downvote. But if you really think about it, deino just doesn't get to interact with 99% of the map and 90% of the non-deino players. As a deino I've played for 6 hours straight without even seeing a herbivore other than a stego come to the water, as they all tend to camp the safe watering holes and stegos don't really have to worry about much. Occasionally a carno or utah will cross or drink, but you pretty much never see tenos or pachys, so you never get your three-hex diet (Or the rare time you do grab a teno, it out-stams you and gets away). I really love the croc, and it's why I bought the game. But in it's current state it's usually either mind-numbingly boring to play as you cruise around listening to calls of dinos you'll never see, or it's keyboard-smashingly frustrating because you always either die to body-camping or ambushing stegos or pairs of cannibal deinos who just kill you because that's their only source of boredom relief. I honestly don't know what could be done to make the croc experience better without making it worse for everyone else, but I really think something should be done to get deinos more chances at herbivore prey and slightly less cannibalism. What do you think?

[tall bronze]

Well, we know migration is coming soon, and it (depending on how it ends up working) could encourage certain herbivores to approach areas Deinos may be lurking in. It's also been said in the past by Kissen that there will eventually be more incentives to go near "high traffic" areas to allow Deino more opportunities.

Plus Gateway (whenever that may come) seems to be an actual good map which may also help with Deino.

[primal heart]

Yeah, as long as the herbivores don't kill each other

[keen plover]

(The herbivores will in fact kill each other).

Not that there is anything wrong with that

[hasty coyote]

I'm honestly hoping migration encourages herbivores to kill each other or "cannibalize" more often. Like, stegos atm can just group up to whatever size limit they want and not have to worry about food. Hopefully, the food is a bit more limited, so its difficult to sustain more than 4-5 stegos in one area, so they are more encouraged to fight over food. Or a herd of tenos and a different herd pachies are sharing a food source in center, but there is not enough to sustain both groups. so they end up fighting each other over it instead of combining into a deathball.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah more herbie competition I hope for

[stark knoll]

@sonic needle Deino's current oxygen time is 10 minutes

[sonic needle]

rly?

[stark knoll]

Yup

It was changed a few patches ago

[sonic needle]

i mean i didnt play the game for a long time. But i thought its still 5 minutes. Im just waiting for U6 to get released but sadly it always takes a rly rly long time for something to happen

[winter iris]

Also its mobility and acceleration have been nerfed

[hollow canyon]

Acceleration was buffed, mobility however was indeed nerfed, including all of its turnrates but those nerfs were some time ago. Bleed was butchered recently in Update 5.

[primal heart]

I agree that there should be more competition among herbivores, but I don't want this to mean that herbivores will easily kill herbivores (you know some people don't care about food, they just want to kill, and I don't want food competition to be a reason to encourage that.They hold "cannibalism always exist." and find excuses for deception and killing for no reason).
Even in reality, herbivores do not aim to kill herbivores, they just no idea the degree of fight, occasionally kill other herbivores, and if one party retreats, the other has almost no chance to kill it. So I hope the game reproduces this.Give herbivores fleeing battle an advantage by allowing herbivores who choose to retreat to escape herbivore players who only want to kill.
（The above situation usually refers to the same herbivore competition, after all, we all have seen stego chase after stego until either party have no stm, which I think is ridiculous.）

Perhaps herbivore competition will reduce the survival competitiveness of the losing side, thus providing opportunities for carnivores, just as reality is

[urban birch]

Have you seen the videos of how aggressive male zebras are to zebra foals for example. In reality it is natural. Male zebra wants to mate but can’t if mother is taking care of a foal that isn’t his so he drowned it in front of a group of tourist. It may not be fun gameplay wise but you cant use the argument that it is unnatural. Herbivores can and will kill other herbivores in nature.

[primal heart]

I admit that this situation exists and herbivores will have many reasons to be cannibalistic, but that is not the case for all herbivores.
And there is no mating pressure in the game, by the way, if I am a baby stego and you are a male adult stego, and you want to reorganize the family with my mother in the game, then there is no reason you have to kill me.
(That's what I sad,please don't find excuse.we do know cannibalism always existe,you can choose what you do.Just don't pretend you're forced to do it after killing the herbivore as a herbivore.)

[tall bronze]

Herbis can't cannibalize though

[urban birch]

No one said I “canni’d” I was just saying you couldn’t make an argument off of something being unnatural when it’s in nature everywhere.

[urban birch]

This lol

[primal heart]

Well, you know what I mean

[tall bronze]

[primal heart]

I think we all want a more harmonious environment when we're playing herbivores, instead of wondering if a herbivore is going to kill me even if it's around

Even it's same species

[urban birch]

Nah harmony is boring I want straight chaos

[tall bronze]

I'd say it just depends on the circumstances really. I mean generally you should never 100% trust another random player, even if they're same species.

But in situations like migrating where certain foods may be clustered together and limited, I'd expect herbis to be really territorial 😮

[primal heart]

At the beginning of Evrima, carno is also very united. They meet each other with joy, greet each other politely, attack other species together, and lead the newcomers to find food

[urban birch]

Herbivores hardly tolerate other species as well. They sure wouldn’t put themselves in a position where they take an injury for something outside of their species

[primal heart]

Today's herbivores are even worse than carno was then

[urban birch]

Now carnos are competition to each other as the food drain is high and they need their protein

As it should be

No one wants to fight a pack of 10 carnos

[primal heart]

Yes, the developer wanted them, and now they're killing each other

[urban birch]

I don’t see the problem besides the fact it doesn’t fit some ppls play styles

[primal heart]

So you want any animal to see you and want to kill you? When you were a baby?

[dusky surge]

i dont see the issue with carnos killing carnos

they're literally the only animal fast enough to catch themselves lol

[tall bronze]

Why'd you expose yourself to an adult animal MUCH stronger and large than you in the first place though 😮

[urban birch]

I don’t walk up to Dinos I don’t know lol

[dusky surge]

(also juvi carno is literally insane, very high tier juvi tbh)

[primal heart]

Carno does cannibalize, but it's not only cannibalism

[dusky surge]

i dont understand what that even means

[urban birch]

I think they are trying to mention kosing but who knows

[dusky surge]

except with carno, you're so hungry KOSing may come in handy

kill what you can when options are limited

im not huge on "kill and fight everything kill kill kill" gameplay, but i do understand that there's going to be people who try to kill you

[primal heart]

Because carno is so hungry, they can lose more than 10 percent of their stomach without eating for five minutes

[tall bronze]

I blame it mostly on the fact that currently, there's nothing else to do that's worthwhile.

[dusky surge]

that too

honestly, again, elders and perks feel like a decent semi-solution

you want to live longer, so you don't take stupid fights and die

[urban birch]

I tend to kill cause I find juvi carnos unbearable to be around 😂

[tall bronze]

If you have a game that's mostly PvP and severely lacking in PvE, you're gonna have a lot of PvP 😛 But Kissen had actually talked about this before, saying how it's better to have more PvP than PvE at first since the former is more interesting on it's own than the latter by itself.

[primal heart]

Yes, and I'm not optimistic that there's a lot to do about it in the future.

[dusky surge]

especially since there seems to be a perk inheritance system for reaching elder, meaning you progressively get "better" the longer you maintain that animal and its bloodline

[tall bronze]

l i n e a g e s

[dusky surge]

it also encourages sub-tasks like nesting, since your offspring will start off with greater perks and you yourself may be rewarded for successfully raising young (based on few dev comments)

its weird how people see this as the "death" of the cool combat, when in reality, it's an alternative style of play

[tall bronze]

Possible rewards for nesting sounds great. Otherwise you're losing a bunch for nothing in return 😛

[tall bronze]

Also makes PvE focused creatures (eg; Dryo and Hypsi) actually g o o d

[dusky surge]

combat system goes nowhere, now you just have something else to do besides play suicide bomber dinos

because as an adult, most of what you do is run into other dinos and hope they die and you don't

[tall bronze]

[primal heart]

Well I'd like to see this system eliminate more players who kill when they're full, and promote players who kill as well as relax

[dusky surge]

idk how you'd eliminate that in a way that isnt garbage

[primal heart]

Oh,we now have almost no things to relax...

My fault

[dusky surge]

what

[primal heart]

It's true that the game lacks anything other than killing each other

[dusky surge]

migrations, elders and perks do seem to be giving you more stuff to actually do which is nifty

[primal heart]

That's why herbivores aren't as interesting as carnivores

[primal heart]

I really hope it gives us more to explore, and now the map is printed in my head

[dusky surge]

we are getting a new map, which is sweet as

[tall bronze]

[primal heart]

I can recite any food anywhere at.... I think it's boring

[dusky surge]

wiith migrations, your food moves, so you actually need to move with it

[thin mantle]

confirmed australian

[dusky surge]

lmao

[primal heart]

[dusky surge]

and? it's not deleted forever lol

[tall bronze]

Lettuce hope the planned means there's at least a sliver of a chance ;o;

If that makes sense

[dusky surge]

there's a sliver of a chance (very small), but we're still GETTING the map

no matter what, the map is eventually going to happen

[tall bronze]

Yee

[primal heart]

Just faster pls

[thin mantle]

Might be an U4 situation where U6 is indefinitely delayed and we just get U6.5 a few weeks later

[dusky surge]

U4 was due to unreal bullshittery

[thin mantle]

not ideal, but still

[tall bronze]

"Nah, no Gateway for U6 guys"

immediately comes in 6.5 just a week later

"I said it wasn't in U6."

The dream

[thin mantle]

The stress tests also lasted a long time, many adjustments were made it wasn't just UE

[dusky surge]

tbf, i dont think the stress tests were even the completed update, the whole thing was kind of a mess

thanks unreal

[thin mantle]

Oh they definitely weren't, that's why U4 never happened and we just got U4.5

[tall bronze]

Could say it was.....unreal what had happened ah ha

[thin mantle]

Your wit floors me

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

I simply cannot contain my unriddled laughter

You've redefined joy

[thin mantle]

congratulations

[tall bronze]

[primal heart]

Ok have some joy
A boring creation from another community——

[dusky surge]

what

i do not understand what you are talking about a good 75% of the time

[dusky surge]

lunacy

[thin mantle]

I'm so genuinely confused

[primal heart]

Because my English sucks

[thin mantle]

That's alright, despite that I'm trying to derive the point you're trying to make, tho language barriers are tough

[primal heart]

Well, it seems that a lot of times what I mean is a little different than what people understand... I'm sorry if I offended somebody

[thin mantle]

Oh don't worry about offense xD
I'd rather work with you than against you, I think I may just me losing the point

[primal heart]

Thanks, dude.

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/thumb-up-thumb-up-eating-thumb-up-moment-gif-18075118

[wet sleet]

@primal heart Looking at your imagines they all seem to be misses. So I don't know why Carno would need to be "fixed", when Utah bite hits from miles away?

[primal heart]

Carno's hit box is too small that it can't hit Utha who made a big mistake.
And when you play other species you can easily hit utha who missd pounce.

[deft holly]

I think thats genuinely for all creatures, that carno just missed.

This hitbox is fine he just needs to look at the thing hes biting.

[primal heart]

Well, I still insist that carno needs a bigger hit box.
What I see is Utah would rather attack carno than pachy.
After all, carno is an easy prey right now, even for another carno

You may not be able to catch a fleeing utha, but if you attack first, you can definitely catch another carno

[wet sleet]

The point is not that Carno hitbox is fine, it's just that that image is not evidence for the contrary. It clearly missed.

Carno doesn't "deserve" a broken bite only because Utah might have one.

[primal heart]

I don't know why this version's change makes you think carno is at its place now. Did you always get killed by carno as a utha before?

After nerf carno and buff utha many times, the situation that carno was obviously stronger than utha has been completely reversed.
Player need utha and carno to be equal rivals, not for one to be significantly stronger than another.

[wet sleet]

Dude... what part of "if Utah bite is broken, we do not want Carno bite to be broken as well" don't you understand.

If Utah bite is broken, fix Utah bite.

Seriously...

[primal heart]

Utha bite is fine

It's carno bite too weak

[wet sleet]

"Hey lets make everything bite thin air and still hit - because 'balance'..."

If you don't hit you shouldn't do damage.

[primal heart]

Herbivores have an even wider attake range.

[dusky surge]

god i dont want xenomorph carnotaurus again

[primal heart]

Why is carno the only one who has trouble aiming

[dusky surge]

because he's an extremely fast mouth on legs hunting small and agile creatures?

pretty sure one can gather why it has trouble aiming from the nature of carno itself

carno has a poor turn radius, high speed and is generally aiming for fast, small and agile targets

it has literally nothing to do with hitbox

everything to do with the preset niche

[wet sleet]

There are three parts to it:
(1) Hitbox
(2) Desync
(3) Skill issue
Evidence so far doesn't clearly support one of those.

[dusky surge]

the image you sent of a carnotaurus missing a utah won't really convince me its hitbox is broken. You can clearly see the carno missing, that proves to me it has an accurate and fair hitbox. If you want to balance carno, perhaps focus on more pressing issues, like its current susceptibility to bleed, rather than the hitbox that actually is reflective of where its head is

carnos have been too spoilt with an insanely jank hitbox that allowed them to snipe outside their range, now that they have an accurate bite hitbox, they struggle hitting attacks because their prey is slippery and small. Changes to stats that impact its ability to catch these smaller prey items would be more ideal than making its bite broken again

[wet sleet]

For the Utah it seems to be either hitbox or desync, because that is clearly not a hit in the image.

[primal heart]

I always talk about carno's current susceptibility to bleed.Lot of player did so,we can't keep emphasizing one point, right?

[dusky surge]

okay, but saying carno's hitbox is broken because it didn't hit a utah that it missed is kinda absurd imho

[primal heart]

Well about that.I'm just saying that carno's hit box is too small compared to other species, and whether or not my picture proves it, it's still a problem

[dusky surge]

it really isnt, though

no other species has the insane hitbox that carno used to have before the fix

[primal heart]

I don't want every species to be balanced by being weakened, we're playing with very deadly prehistoric animals

[dusky surge]

the carno quite literally bit people through the air

[dusky surge]

and i dont want to be bitten by a carno that didnt bite me

old carno could LITERALLY bite outside its range

[primal heart]

So I'm not talking about getting carno's hit box back to before

[dusky surge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423939730544132096/985166358381727764/Carno_bitebug_Utahcrouch_2022.03.25_-_05.05.06.16.mp4

This was not okay

[dusky surge]

it doesn't NEED a buff tho, the jaws land when they actually hit something

[wet sleet]

I don't get why we don't just fix the actual issues but instead conjure weird "buffs" out of thin air just for the sake of it. Carnos issues seem to stem mostly from the short hunger time of 45 minutes, that doesn't allow you enough freedom to pick your engagements. So why not fix that instead?

[dusky surge]

in the pic you sent, the carno literally missed the utah

the head is quite literally not touching the utah's body

i dont see why you're convinced it should've hit

[primal heart]

I agree with carno that has many problems

[dusky surge]

theres many things that should be fixed, carnos bite hitbox is fine

it misses more because of the nature of how it actually is meant to hunt

hunting small, quick and agile things is hard

especially if you yourself are not agile

[primal heart]

I don't know. When we used to talk about carno against teno, we always said carno should hunt smaller prey,because they do so.
And now we talk carno against utha,we say carno hunting small, quick and agile things is hard

Are we prejudiced against carno?

[dusky surge]

no?

what the hell are you talking about lol

no one is saying carno shouldn't hunt teno, nor that they shouldn't hunt smalls

if i were prejudiced against carnos, i'd say he's fine and needs no buffs

[primal heart]

I don't really care what carno should have strengthened or if it was ever too strong.
I just think that the current version of carno has been consistently nerfed so that the problems have been exposed and carno has become boring and a waste of time.

[wet sleet]

Wtf is this? I get the feeling you don't actually care about balance but rather about making Carno more forgiving to play.

[dusky surge]

literally no one is arguing that carno needs nerfs or no buffs

[primal heart]

I just want to change the fact that carno is boring

[dusky surge]

i dont see how making him have a ridiculous bite hitbox makes him more fun?

wat

[primal heart]

You should experience what it feels like to miss when you should have hit it

[wet sleet]

Easier to use -> less frustrating. I get that, but it's still a bad idea.

Mostly because it would frustrate the hell out of everything else.

It's a very Carno-centric approach to buffing it, that basically doesn't care about everything else.

[primal heart]

Carno has a lot of irrationality all the time, including the fact that you have to search for food all the time and being bullied by a 500kg animal,bad susceptibility to bleed....

Some of these are necessary sacrifices for gameplay

But I hope it's not by making carno hard to play

I don't really care about each very specific enhancement or nerf.
Good players use their strengths to their advantage and avoid their weaknesses.

We should not diminish the advantages of one species to balance it.

[dusky surge]

we also shouldn't make the advantages of one species include outright unfair/broken systems

[primal heart]

That's why when utha is weak when pounce is buged

But did they really fix the pounce?Is pounce before bug like this?

[dusky surge]

the pounce doesnt randomly launch you off or make you get stuck in the air or unable to deactivate it anymore so id argue pounce really isnt that bugged

[primal heart]

carno's charge has been weakened many times, both in range and stamina cost.
Also charge will now be stopped head-on by animals much smaller than carno（when small animal absolutely have chance to dodge）.This makes carno featureless.

[primal heart]

I think the current version pounce is easier to hit than ever before

[dusky surge]

yea, it is, but its not launching you off at random

[dusky surge]

i dont think charge has been nerfed at all, in fact, they removed the cooldown it used to have

[primal heart]

Err...did it launching you off at random before？

[dusky surge]

it did, for basically the entirety of U4, it would cause you to launch off at random, float in midair or all kinds of stupid stuff that got you killed

[primal heart]

But in the past charge was not interrupted by teno and pachy

[dusky surge]

yea it was

pachy has always been able to counter charge, and teno has always been able to time a slam to stop it

thats never not been the case

[primal heart]

No Absolutely not. Did you actually play the old version?

[dusky surge]

i was literally QA for U4

[primal heart]

I test every update since evrima open

The earliest carno charge was unstoppable, and even then it was easy to dodge

Oh it can be stop by stego

[primal heart]

It's for animal smaller than carno

[dusky surge]

i dont know why you'd want carno to have an unstoppable charge, it having counterplay is more interesting than it just being unstoppable death

[primal heart]

I also know that carno couldn't start charging after stm fell below 30% in the past

[primal heart]

I agree with you, but the old carno charge was not unstoppable death.It had the same low hit rate as it does now.

As long as you're watching carno it won't have a chance of hitting you

But now the charge will be stopped by teno and pachy even making carno no reason to use charge other than sneak attack

As well as its high stm cost, making the charge impossible to even use for running away

While all other species use their skills frequently in dogfights,Carno is plain and boring.

I've often heard arguments that pachy's body is built for impact and carno isn't, but I don't find it interesting that 1.8 tons x 55km/h of energy is stopped by a 500kg animal,what ever this animal do.

My physics teacher would have told me to get the hell out of the classroom if I had argued with him like that

[winter iris]

Btw, whilst I agree that carno bite is a bit strange sometimes and its animations and hitbox can be a bit dodgy (let’s say too precise, even if ‘precise isn’t the right word)), I also think that the images @primal heart sent are not evidence of this problem. They might be evidence of the fact that Utah bite hitbox is too big, which I think it is also the case and should be fixed

[primal heart]

I mean, at least it hurt both side

[primal heart]

It's impossible to prove this with an image, I just hope someone notices it and is willing to raise.

Players who play carno regularly must be somewhat aware of this problem, as it makes them wonder if they've made a mistake

They see this problem when they realize that they often make unreasonable mistakes when playing carno

[hollow canyon]

That's nonsense. That isn't why Carno's bites don't land. There are issues with hit detection on Carno because the animation isn't properly aligned with the camera placement.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is just scuffed bite-wise because the furthest point of its bite is lower than where you're looking at. The reason for why it was set up the way it was before(as you can see on that video you posted) the nerf was because if you looked straight at your target your hits were supposed to land(and they did). What this has caused however was that Carno was landing bites from afar when you looked ABOVE your target(which is what my friends did on that video). In essence right now you have to look above your target for hits to land.

[hollow canyon]

It is only one of those for anyone who's actually tested it - it's the hitbox. Desync and skill issue are just cope from people that don't know how it works.

[primal heart]

That may be the truth.
Thank you for your clarification

[hollow canyon]

It is the truth, I tested it extensively with one of the QAs quickly after U5 came out. They are aware of it. Something will be done about it presumably but hell knows when exactly and what they will do.

The real solution would be to unscuff Carno's camera and animation not being aligned properly but that might be a bit of work tbh.

[primal heart]

Can't wait to see the revisions in 2025

[hollow canyon]

Nah something will be done about it faster but unfortunately we really only see the balance changes some 2-3 times a year which is definitely not enough.

[hollow canyon]

The irony is that if he actually looks at the thing he's biting - he will miss. That's the "specificity" of Carno.

[primal heart]

Yeah, actually a lot of the problems are because there's nothing new to explore.
Rapid update can mask many problems

[hollow canyon]

No, the issue is that if you pile up so many balance changes into one update you're bound to mess balance up. The game will never be balanced if they keep releasing those so rarely.

Utah went from utter garbage to way too good in one update.

Carno went from well balanced to utter garbage also in the same update.

this is because they pile up multiple changes to multiple animals in one update

[primal heart]

I'm more inclined to think that balance adjustment doesn't make sense when there aren't many species.

[hollow canyon]

Utah performed rather poorly vs Carno previously because of its broken pounce so they fixed the issue with pounce, buffed its recovery and increased the animal's biteforce while also nerfing Carno's bleed resistance(and bite detection).

[primal heart]

Can't agree more

[hollow canyon]

Just note - it wasn't the blood pool that they nerfed in update 5. It was the bleed resistance - walking, standing and trotting. Meaning that your blood pool is the same but the amount of blood you lose while walking, standing and trotting was increased.

This was done because... idk Utahs were throwing fits at Carnos just standing there and not running which increased the time they needed to kill one I guess.

[primal heart]

Yes, someone corrected me on that earlier.
In order not to cause an argument, I summarize it as the manifestation against bleed.

[wet sleet]

#noissueisevercomplex

If have nailed it down, that's great though. Luckily hitboxes can be verified. Can we now change the suggestion to "move the hitbox to the right spot", because compensating one weirdness (wrong bite location) with another (insane bite size) is still silly.

[hollow canyon]

Yea the solution to this issue would be to align what the Carno player sees with what actually happens

But I think that might be a bit... difficult to pull off?

as in - it will likely require more work

The basic issue is that if a Carno looks straight at you - it misses bites

what you see and what a Carno player sees is different basically

you have to see the same thing from both perspectives to understand

Idk if I have the videos unfortunately, I don't think I recorded that test

[wet sleet]

That's for the devs to figure out.

[hollow canyon]

Probably more so for QA to figure out

I don't think the devs deal with this stuff

they will most likely just be told by QA "hey this is a problem we have to fix it"

but I honestly expect the hitbox to just be enlarged somewhere between where it used to be and where it is now but we will see

[primal heart]

@analog mirage Pretty good idea, but I think it would be better to change the effect you said to be able to use skill attacks after run out STM

[wet sleet]

Personally I would just add a stamina cost on bites as well.

[primal heart]

Otherwise, pachy can torture predator slowly after causing a fracture,with full stm.
Herbivore combat is usually not done by dealing a lot of damage at once,it make no sence, but rather by slowing down the predator and find an opportunity to escape.

(And in this game, predator doesn't seem to care much about losing HP,they always have chance to get rid off herbivores)

[urban birch]

It just sounds like you do not know how to use the herbi’s move kit correctly

[analog mirage]

I mean yeah a pachy can endlessly fracture you but it will take like twice as long to kill you

The whole purpose is to allow herbivores to defend themselves in combat and could possibly make matchups slightly more interesting

There will be times when you just happen to run into a group of pack animals you can’t escape and need to fight

[urban birch]

It would just allow for endless spamming of say teno tail slam and no counter play

[hollow canyon]

if they start CCing the target - sure

[analog mirage]

Yes but remember it’s doing way less damage so it’s not like you’ll straight up kill it. It’s more to be used defensively then offensively

[primal heart]

I think that would cause the herbivores to remain full stm after a long confrontation with the carnivores

[urban birch]

Yeah but it allows no window for carni attack cause the slam stuns

[primal heart]

Maybe some animation differences should be added

[urban birch]

I think the stam drain is fine

[wet sleet]

Would make sense actually. Something like a minor slow for example. Currently bites are really headbutts with your mouth.

[analog mirage]

Yeah sure. But if you aren’t giving damage output to cripple the carnivore that’s more times you could easily mess up and get bitten

[urban birch]

The best way to kill something is to bait attacks and drain stam. If you panic and spam ur attack 100 times you deserve to die

[analog mirage]

It prolongs the fight to ensure you have a better chance of survival but you need to play more carefully not allowing things to bite you

[hollow canyon]

I mean I generally think that if an animal significantly smaller gets bitten by something big enough it should get knocked down but that's more so to avoid giving apexes absurd damage values.

In general however I think a safe rule of thumb would be to make it so that attacks that apply crowd control had a stamina cost and those that only dealt damage didn't cost anything

and yes that includes Stego's thagomizer but not in a way making it not cost stamina, it's more so that it should CC things smaller than itself

[analog mirage]

The whole issue is that herbivores in general are basically life tied to the stamina while carnivores can (usually) easily just bite away without using stamina and give good damage output

[hollow canyon]

if a 2t theropod was to be hit by a 6t stegosaurus it would likely just go on the ground due to force of impact

[wet sleet]

I think they all should cost some depending on overall power, otherwise you could spam them forever.

[hollow canyon]

I don't have a problem with attacks being spammed forever if they just deal damage

[wet sleet]

Or at least make misses cost stamina.

[hollow canyon]

not an issue in my mind, BoB has that trash and I don't want it in TI

[slim dragon]

I think all bites should cost stamina
1% for non-biters like teno or stego, 2% for biters like utah and carno, and 4% for pter aair peck

[hollow canyon]

Yea let's turn the game into BoB

[analog mirage]

Idk I just feel my idea is a way to counter the whole stamina issue without some stupid nerf to carnivores

[wet sleet]

I don't want basic attacks to be disabled when you are out of stam, but I want them to reduce it.

[urban birch]

Giving things hella stam is a nerf to carnivores

[hollow canyon]

I dig your idea, attacking without stamina should just decrease the damage and remove the crowd control

[wet sleet]

If you couldn't attack at all at 0 stamina that would be silly.

[analog mirage]

Oh wait herbivores in general. (The bites are so weak they don’t even matter)

[wet sleet]

I think turning special attacks into weaker ("basic") attacks without CC when you are out of stam would work as well.

[primal heart]

I think it's a stratagem that carnivores are tricking herbivores into exhausting them, and we shouldn't eliminate that

[urban birch]

The alt attacks of both Pachy and teno (claw attack) use minimal stam

[hollow canyon]

they used to cost no stam at all but then some genius found that problematic

[wet sleet]

But I dislike how a Utah or Carno can just run around spamming M1 all day without any downsides.

[hollow canyon]

I mean - they're running that's the cost of stamina for them

bite isn't like throwing your whole body weight around the way a Tenonto does when it tailslams

[primal heart]

Yeah, back then, deino alt bite didn't need stm either

[hollow canyon]

that's also why Tenonto deals more damage than Carno despite being smaller

[hollow canyon]

that was actually very questionable

and it's a good thing that that got changed

[primal heart]

Yep

[urban birch]

Being able to mindlessly spam an attack is problematic

[wet sleet]

Yeah, but spamming the bite does nothing here. So if you chase a Dryo for example you don't get punished for mindlessly spamming bite and maybe randomly hitting them.

[hollow canyon]

Yea because biting isn't very exhausting

like - at all, that's also why bites aren't that strong in the game

[primal heart]

But I think it would be nice for herbivores to use up their stm and still be able to use alt attacks with low damage and no stun

Bravado is part of survival

[urban birch]

Or just play smart and don’t run outta stam

A pachy can regain the stam used alt attacking by just standing still and defending their ground. Which you have to do anyway cause of their poor bleed resist. A situation where you would run outta stam doing this is a situation you should die in either way.

Ie a full pack of utahs against a solo pachy

[primal heart]

I actually have a lot of ideas, such as the wear of teeth or spines, the higher stm consumption the longer you run, etc
But given the slow pace of updates, I think I might be able to play my proposed content in my coffin

[urban birch]

Or maybe the devs just don’t like ur ideas 🤷‍♀️

[primal heart]

indeed

[wet sleet]

The devs have plenty of ideas themselves, that's why it is important to state what you want to achieve with your suggestion.

Maybe your idea doesn't fit, but whatever made you have that idea could be an issue they could approach somehow.

[winter iris]

@analog mirage well the suggestion could be a good point if it was true that carnivores (with the current roster) don’t consume stamina for their attacks. Reality is that both Utah and carno generally consume a good amount of their stamina during fights, for different reasons:

• carno has a very fast stam drain, which goes to the moon when using ram, so unless you pass by a carno that was hiding in a bush a carno generally starts a fight running towards you from far away and realistically will have a max of 80% of its stam at the start if a fight (assuming it did not ram). After that every little acceleration costs stam for carno
  -Utah, to effectively kill its prey needs to use pounce which can be quite stam consuming , especially vs teno

So, good players generally manage their stam decently well, and for Utah it is definitely simpler to do that, but the assumption that carnivores have no stam cost when fighting is just a wrong assumption.
So making changes based on a wrong assumption would almost certainly bring only cons to the gameplay

[winter iris]

The other fact, that I think is actually extremely important, is that with a roster that is so small every balance consideration is necessarily going to miss something. Basically when a playable starts being very good at doing what it should do in its niche the game can very easily become unbalanced, especially with the roster that we currently have in Evrima.
For example, if you think about stego, even if it is now almost unbeatable on land, it may result a lot more balanced in the game once the roster will be complete
Also carno, I think wasn’t ‘broken’ in U4.5 , it was mainly balanced for what it should be doing in this game, the problem was that the current roster (excluding stego) is basically its niche and hence it did not have anything to control its population or counter it (hence why they nerfed it , too much imo, in U5 but not really because it was broken).
If they were to nerf stego, they should remember to buff it again when other playables will be in the game, but would probably be ok as it is now once some big land predators will e introduced.
Similarly carno, in its current state, would probably be an extremely bad playable as mid tier once other mid tiers will be introduced , whilst U4.5 carno could have been balanced and controller by other mid tiers (maybe with a bit of tuning yes, but not with the massive nerfs it had).
For Utah, whilst it is good that pounce currently isnt buggy, I think the situation is different. Utah currently has got more than one aspect that needs adjustments (like pounce locations, recovery time). Putting it in simple words we could say that Utah is not balanced atm and offers a lot more rewards than the time you spend growing it.

Anyway, this was mainly to say that I think that every balance consideration will lack something until we’ll have a decent playable roster. That’s also why I would have liked that the next playable introduced had a real impact on balance and not beipi(or whatever it’s called)

[hasty coyote]

The next one is troo in 6.5. Which should be interesting. Mainly because it can spread out the player base and act as prey for solo utahs.

[winter iris]

Oh that’s good. I was sure it was beipi for some reason. Troodon could maybe have some impact on game balance

[hasty coyote]

Beipi should be next afterwards, but plans could change.

[golden coral]

@winter irisYou're halfway right. Carnivores do require much less stam, because a carno is perfectly capable of killing with only bite, just like omni is. While pachy and teno, can't really use their bites on things except for some very specific circumstances. An omni or carno out of stam (or only using it for moving), will win over equivalent herbivore also out of stam (or only using it for moving) as far as I know at least.

[analog mirage]

I mean yeah they use it on attacks but the more important issue is all useful attacks for herbivores require stam while Utah and Carno even without stamina have decent bites that can do damage

[winter iris]

@golden coral @analog mirage both your points are true indeed. I mainly wanted to clarify that starting with the assumption that carnivores don’t consume stam is wrong. But yea I’m with you on these last two

Another thing to be considered, but mainly just for teno , is that even if it consumes stamina for attacks, they’re extremely powerful and more likely to land on opponent’s head (i.e. higher multiplier), so realistically more chances to conclude the fight earlier. So, in some way, the stam consumption for attacks is in some way balanced by this.

[tall bronze]

This is a very late response, but Dondi actually talked about this in one of his Gateway streams. Not sure if it's 100% planned, but he mentioned attacks getting weaker when out of stam I believe.

[digital oak]

@rapid parrot I believe dinos aren't meant to be properly balanced

[rapid parrot]

even so it just kinda sucks to spend hours growing a dino only for it to be immediately murdered from one pounce from a utah

[obtuse ocean]

I mean if i die as utah cus a rex bite me im fine, its slow/zero stam/speed/agility. I either didnt pay attention or i wanted to fight it. But utah can prob catch 90% of the rooster.

[rapid parrot]

Utah can solo anything with enough patience and good timing except deino, tho I have seen vids of utah players killing those

pachy and carno need to leave a fight after one pounce, carno needs a good pounce and pachy just needs a few seconds to be out

I had a pounce of 2-3 seconds and it got me to 32% blood today in under a minute

teno seems to be okay

stego is good too since it's not really meant to be hunted by utahs (they do it anyways)

[hollow canyon]

Idk who gave you that bright idea but no - they are meant to be properly balanced which Utah quite obviously is not.

[hasty coyote]

What were your food and thirst values and were you sprinting constantly? I did tests on this stuff and that seems to be a bit on the extreme.

[tall bronze]

I think he was referring to what Hypno said about not everything being "fair" in Isle

[winter iris]

As @hollow canyon already told you, that’s not true but anyway being balanced doesn’t mean that any fight should be 50-50. Also, even if they were not balanced it wouldn’t mean that a utah can easily kill pretty much all the playable roster.
I play Utah and carno, and was in favour of some minor nerfs for carno after U4.5 not really because it was unbalanced in general but because it was unbalanced with the current roster. Anyway, carno in U4.5 was better balanced than what Utah is now …and U4.5 carno was pretty good

[golden coral]

@frail parcelYou can solo a stego as deino if you are really good and know what you're doing, and if three deinos somehow fail to make that stego run away crying, they're just outright bad, or just have no idea what they're doing. Also there's no point in referencing real life bite or something, game balance takes precedence, and you can oneshot every other critter. Having one matchup where you in general need two deinos to succeed in, is not an issue.

You can also drown any stego up to 4T, so you can hunt stegos solo as well, just not the fully grown ones.

[winter iris]

Indeed a bit extreme. The only proper test I did was for a pounce that lasted approx 0.5sec-1sec after which I lost 10-11% blood just by standing still

[rapid parrot]

All max except for missing one diet

Movement after that was trotting with quick sprints to dodge Utah pounces, then a single jump to get on a rock

[hasty coyote]

did you buck? I can give you the table of my stats in a sec.

bit rough values, but it works. We did a full pounce til the omni falls off with bucking. Then did the movement until my bleed healed.

Also be aware that generally, unless you're running to favorable terrain, you should try to move as little as possible after being pounced. so a more rough average may be between 40-60% remaining after a pounce. Which is still harsh, don't get me wrong, but it isnt immediate death from 1 pounce.

[rapid parrot]

Yes of course, that's why I didn't get even close to a full pounce

[rapid parrot]

I moved to a treeline and got on a rock while my friends guarded me. I was lucky to have them or I would have died from blood loss
There were 6 omnis also

[hasty coyote]

makes sense, prob the missing diet you had accounts for it being a bit more bleed than the table I have.

[rapid parrot]

It just bugs me that bleed is so severe that one puts you out of a fight unless you want to die from blood loss. Yes you can just stand, but then the Utah will continue to pounce and bite you and you can't escape by running since they are faster, your only hope is to have fellow herbies nearby

[hasty coyote]

generally the trick I use is to constantly face the utah and alt swing them on the ground, then tap ram their legs. If you get a body fracture and are able to, you can try and just make a run for it.

[rapid parrot]

Also I like the chart you did, if I may offer some data I gathered on my own: pachy and Utah have the same amount of stamina. This was tested by having both players with full stam start running at the same time, we both ran till the full stam bar was gone, we stopped at the exact same time
We both had perfect diets at the time as well

[hasty coyote]

thank you, but yeah bleed is just a hard thing to truly show since it depends on a lot. instead of just knowing "pounce does 100 damage" I had to get with another person and compile a light chart. I got one for bleed on carno too, though it has less values.

[rapid parrot]

I think blood pools could just be buffed in general, especially since utahs often travel in packs.

The fact that a pachy bleeds out faster than a Utah doesn't make much sense either.

Especially since when a Utah is pounced it's on its back, having its vital areas being torn apart

[hollow canyon]

@frail parcel It doesn't matter how tiny and vulnerable Stego's head is - if three Deinos are losing to one Stego it's really clear that they aren't landing hits on its head either way so who cares?

In other words - big L2P for all the Deinos that lose 3v1s against a Stego, that's some major skill issue.

[bright oasis]

Deino isnt even built to fight stego anyway. It's a water abusher that goes for mid tiers and below. The best way to beat adult stego atm is bore it to death by not interacting with it. 2nd is just have an experienced stego hunting utah group.

[hollow canyon]

...or being good at Deino

a Deino pair claps a Stego with ease if they are at least moderately skilled. If someone is really good with it they can solo

[bright oasis]

Yeah that too, but players like that are few and far between

[hollow canyon]

the game isn't balance around people who have no idea what they're doing and it never should be

[bright oasis]

Facts

[primal heart]

I think the balance between Deinos and stegos depends on player's behavior.
In which server I always play（ruled server,Cannibalism is not allowed）, many Deinos and stegos are clustered in the northwest,They were all there to fight.
In this case, a single stego would usually be able to fight off multiple Deinos easily.

This is because the stegos assumes that there must be deinos in the water

And I'm a lone deino, I've killed adult stego several times far from the hot zone.They are not vigilant,even cross the river.that's your chance.

[thin mantle]

Balance is irrespective of behavioral tendencies, balance assesses capability, habit or frequency don’t play a part in that unless the frequency of an action is caused by poor balance

[analog mirage]

Maybe it’s the fact that sure even though deino should theoretically kill a stego given it’s size and power, deino is the absolute worst playable for land combat. It’s meant to be horrible at it

It’s to prevent them just going on land and killing everything

Deino isn’t meant to fight on land and players who do that typically end up dying

Now I will say the stego tail swing should have some sort of slower movement and less damage if it goes through water

[winter iris]

Nice table. I have a doubt though. In theory what should make a difference is not the water or food % (water shouldn’t count at all actually) but how many diets you have (i.e. 1, 2 or 3 which is perfect diet). Additionally, it would be interesting to understand if not having a perfect diet also affects the amount of bleeding and not only the bleeding recovery as stated in the game. This, assuming that bleeding recovery is something that starts when bleeding stops and not something that plays a role when actively bleeding. For that purpose there are bleeding multipliers already I think.

On another point, the only one time I was able to ‘test’ pounce bleeding damage was when I got pounced for something like 1 second and, as adult carno with good diet, the bleeding stopped at about 89-90% and I walked for like 2 meters and than stood still

[hasty coyote]

All of these were tested on full diet with bucking asap and the utah staying on until it fell off, so food water and stam 100% make an impact. From our tests, it makes it take longer to start healing iirc, but this was from the start of U5 and I didn’t measure time so it may just make you bleed faster. However, diets also likely play a role as well, but that is something else I’d need to test.

As a side note, I also learned they double pouncing (one on each side) deals basically as much as 2 pounces, so the multiplier theory was wrong.

[hasty coyote]

@small ether either that stego was hacking, those deinos were subadult, or you’re exaggerating that heavily. Stego can only tank like 12 hits max to the body, which would take 2 seconds max to kill it with 6 deinos. The only way I can see it happening the way the said it, would be the deinos biting each other most the time instead of the stego, but even that is iffy.

[golden coral]

@wooden dagger Use your alt bite, that's what it's there for, to give you the ability to quickly turn around and do damage at that.

[wooden dagger]

the alt bite is good
its just kinda weird how it goes from one large turn to mutiple 45degree turns if you try to rotate too fast

[golden coral]

Hm? Not quite sure what you mean there, do you mean turn in place?

[wooden dagger]

im terrible at explaining things ;-;
i guess when you make sharp turns it starts a small turning animation that goes about 45degrees then stops
and theres a sightly different on for doing 180 degree turns

[golden coral]

Ah, yeah that'd be turn in place I think. And yes, it's slow, but I think that's by design, since you're not really meant to be very agile, much less on land.

I think the alt bite is there to be the defensive action, instead of just turning and biting normally, you know. So you have to be a bit wary and not entirely untouchable on land.

[wooden dagger]

i think its more of a nitpic than anything else

but it feels kinda of considering how fast it can do 180 degree turns

[golden coral]

Hm, it sounds a little strange, but I guess allowing for faster "whole" turn makes some sense, since the target has gone all around you.

So if the target is just trying to sidestep, you just turn a little, but if it ran behind you, you need to turn sufficiently to at least somewhat keep up

If that makes sense to you?

[wooden dagger]

trying to go from the smaller 45 degree turns to the 180 usualy causes you in the oposite direction. trying to turn faster to the right but instead making a full turn to the left for example

[wooden dagger]

i get what you mean its just a little inconsistent at times