balance-feedback-discussion

[winter iris]

?

[neon willow]

I mean honestly bleed damage needs to be unbound from normal damage anyways. If you're doing high base damage you probably don't need the bleed, and if you have high bleed then you shouldn't get high base damage

[tall bronze]

Connected stuff like that I've never liked much since it limits freedom.

[neon willow]

Would also clearly separate dinos based on attack style-- damage killers (likely ambush predators) vs bleed killers (likely endurance predators)

Then you could have some which flirt with both-- not so high damage but bleed too, becoming jack of all trades

[obtuse ocean]

Gonna be hard to balance that, i mean if you are slower then lets say allo whos the bleeder. He gonna destroy you, since he will just hit and run with ease. And if your slower then whatever is dealing damage he will also kill you easy.

[keen plover]

But that's just allo tbf.

[alpine acorn]

also, the deinos in EVIRMA should have an ability to drag a stegos tail. while they do it, they get their stam drained as if they are drowning smth. more easy to take down stegos

[golden coral]

That's the last thing that's needed. Deinos can already solo stegos, and take them down in pairs. No need to make it easier for them.

[alpine acorn]

but 1 stego can easily kill 3 in-experienced dienos. but i guess ur right cuz only adult dienos are experienced.

[obtuse ocean]

Thats good ? Sounds perfectly balanced, imagine dying to 3 in-experience deinos just cus they are more.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, true. But i think he wanted something that had both damage and bleed.

[keen plover]

Ah, then allo, acro and giga probs

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but prob something inbetween sub rex and allo in legacy : P i agree tho, we sorta have that

When i think about it, Sucho was prob that. Good damage and bleed

[golden coral]

That's mostly because yes, they are inexperienced, and because there's not much in the way of gaining experience fighting vs hunting as a deino. Everything but stego, you just.. grab and kill. So aside from fighting other deinos, you don't reallly have a good way to learn to fight much (and it's not quite the same as fighting a stego anyway). But there's a few people out there with youtube videos showing how to go about handling a stego.

[fickle bone]

How are only adult Deinos experienced?

[fickle bone]

If the Stego is braindead then yes

[golden coral]

No, you can still do it, even if the stego is competent. But it's not easy 1v1, nor should it be. But get a friend and that stego is pretty much done for, unless it more or less immediately runs for its life.

[golden coral]

Honestly, most adult deinos are far from capable players, but that's what you get when you have the most op critter in the game overall, and one of the easiest to grow at that.

[fickle bone]

Bro, any and all Stegos I've attempted to take down have all just ran away far up on land where I can't get them

If a Stego is swimming it should be drownable

[golden coral]

Well yes, if the stego runs away, but then it runs away and is no longer a bother for you. No different to a deino making it back to water and swimming away. But if the stego decides to fight you, you can solo it if you go about it just right. And with two of you, you can most likely kill the stego before it can run away unless it reacts immediately and does not attempt to fight you at all.

[golden coral]

No. 5 hours or more of growth dying with no counterplay like that is not really fun. Even deino vs deino you have some vague chance of surviving, imagine if you could just grab another deino and drown it.

[dusky surge]

deino doesnt need to be able to kill everything

sometimes you need to learn to cut your losses and leave something alone

[golden coral]

Honestly, downsize deino, and then let it grab heavier things when swimming. That way the "sucho issue" could also be fixed

[fickle bone]

It's an apex, so yes

[dusky surge]

so is stego

[fickle bone]

It's nor

[dusky surge]

it... is

stego is literally an apex, same as deino

[fickle bone]

Huntable by allos mmmm such an apex

[dusky surge]

what allos are hunting it

[fickle bone]

Talking about later on in 50 years

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeDownsize deino to 4T. Let it grab things up to 2T while they're standing, let it grab things up to 4T while swimming. Now you have a deino that is a decent "small"/Mid tier hunter, that can hunt bigger things swimming (and things that can also go swimming, why woiuld an apex go swimming really). And for those semiaquatics that are at risk, they might have ways to sense a deino better than the others, so they can judge the risk better.

[dusky surge]

deino is a small game hunter

[golden coral]

@fickle boneIn game, I'm pretty sure stego is an apex. It will have to contend with rex, giga, and other large critters.

[dusky surge]

its not at all meant to be punching into its own weight class

[golden coral]

On top of that, deino is not designed to hunt apexes, or even fight them.

[dusky surge]

it hunts things half its size

[fickle bone]

Stego will get slaughtered by rex

[golden coral]

Being an apex really just means nothing hunts you, as it stands, deino is much more of an apex than stego, and quite frankly, even in the future, aside from spino, I don't see much hunting an adult deino, so it might still be counted that way, more than most.

[dusky surge]

deino is built for a very stealthy playstyle, if something it can't take walks by, it can simply (and easily) avoid it

[golden coral]

No. That would be bad balance. Stego needs a way to survive rex, simple as that.

[dusky surge]

stego will be able to defend itself for rex, otherwise it's a poorly made animal

[golden coral]

As it could back in prog for that matter, or at the very least, kill the rex in return.

I guess a mutually assured destruction could make a comeback, questionable as that is.

[fickle bone]

Not lile Deino had a larger biteforce than rex 🥱

[dusky surge]

cool

this is the isle tho

[golden coral]

Irrelevant. This is a game, game balance before realism.Also it didn't, not how bites and damage work. So it's a "yes but no" thing.

Like, larger biteforce but not larger damage or however it was explained.

[fickle bone]

Absolutelt its irrelevant since 100% balance comes before realism but imo you should stay somewhat true to the real animal

[golden coral]

In any case, deino currently is not designed to hunt apexes. Stego, no matter if you class it as apex or not, will have to contend with the other large carnis and hebis and balanced accordingly.

[golden coral]

You could say we are, you have the ability to grab, hold, and drown stuff.

[dusky surge]

rex's bite would absolutely do more damage than a deino's, just like how a gator doesn't actually use its bite force as its primary attack, and instead chooses to drag and deathroll their prey

[golden coral]

There's your powerful jaws, if you want an ingame explanation. You don't use them for raw damage, you use them for "manipulation" in a sense.

[dusky surge]

balance comes before realism, hence, stego would be able to defend itself from rex and deino has absolutely zero right fighting a stego

[golden coral]

Which is kind of what crocs do I think, it's less them outright biting you to death, and more them just holding you and then dragging you into water

[dusky surge]

if deino could easily kill a stego, the game would be awfully designed

deino already is one of the best animals in the entire game (if not the outright best)

complete control of the aquatic environment, EXTREMELY favourable matchups against 7 of the 9 roster choices, insane bleed resist, highest bite damage, an instant kill move against anything less than 4 tons, easy access to a renewable and nutrient-full food source with fish, unrivaled stealth and the ability to just... ignore things you don't want to fight

it being able to beat stego on top of that would mean the only thing that can beat deino is deino, so say goodbye to literally anything but deino in servers

[hollow canyon]

Yea... I wouldn't be getting my hopes up for that, Stego 3 shots an Allo.

Idk where the idea of Allos being able to hunt Stegos comes from. Even in legacy Allos get deleted by a Stego.

it's not even close

Besides - Stego winning vs Deino is absolutely and completely intended and it was always meant to go this way. If Stego isn't an apex then Deino isn't one even more so

[hollow canyon]

Also - it didn't

The only crocodillian that could compete with Tyrannosaurus rex in terms of biteforce is Purussaurus brasiliensis.

[fickle bone]

Can't compare it to legacy when legacy was a complete and utter mess. Stego was also a very old dino which hadn't been updated for years on years, so they were balanced for a different game basically

[hollow canyon]

Right so what in the world makes you think that Allos are going to be hunting it exactly?

[fickle bone]

Look it up, everything points to that being case

[hollow canyon]

No, it doesn't and I don't need to look it up, I've read more than enough of it

[fickle bone]

Idk maybe becase the devs are hinting towards it idk 🤷‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

Where?

Point to where they hinted towards it

[fickle bone]

Don't have the specific source but if you keep up with dev blogs and news etc they hint towards it

[regal goblet]

^^^

[hollow canyon]

Where? Link me to the devblog where they indicate that Allosaurus is going to be hunting Stego

[fickle bone]

Somewhat sure some dev specifically said that Allo is going to hunt Stego, which caused a lot of ruckus within the community

[hollow canyon]

I haven't seen either that ruckus or that statement

[fickle bone]

Must be new or some

[hollow canyon]

???

[fickle bone]

Bro can you just stop being on my ass

[hollow canyon]

The only mid tier that was shown off as hunting Stego was Albertosaurus

[fickle bone]

Nope

[regal goblet]

If you take enough time or know the animal good enough you can hunt stego with carno, teno, etc. I think it'll be possible for Allo to hunt stego aswell they will just have to know how to do it. And the devs do hint a whole ton of things In dev blogs

[hollow canyon]

If you either back up your claims or stop spreading misinformation - sure

[fickle bone]

Exactly

[hollow canyon]

Stego claps Carno with ease

[fickle bone]

Yeah it does

[hollow canyon]

Carno is probably the worst dino to use for hunting Stego

[regal goblet]

Sure but if you play it smart then you can kill stego with it. I've done it with three adult carnis

[fickle bone]

There's nothing CURRENTLY that stands up to Stego

Utahs can't hunt it since if they pounce they're dead

[hollow canyon]

I've soloed a Stego with a Carno at one point, that doesn't mean anything

You can kill anything with anything if you put enough effort into it and encounter a person who can't handle themselves properly

[fickle bone]

It means that a Carno can kill a Stego

[hollow canyon]

Is this a joke?

[fickle bone]

Nope

[hollow canyon]

Utahs murder a Stego if it's solo

[fickle bone]

If a Utah pounces a Stego and if the Utah tries to jump off then it will die unless the Stego is looking away or sleeping

[regal goblet]

I'm just saying you can use it to kill STEGO so I'm saying that it'll also be possible for Allo aswell if they figure out how to do it efficiently. That's all I'm saying, it'll be possible

[fickle bone]

Exactly bruh

[hollow canyon]

So you basically believe that Utah CAN'T hunt Stegos but Allos will?

That's just so utterly absurd

[fickle bone]

No I don't

I just said that it currently isn't possible because of Stegos hitbox

If a Utah pounces a Stego and tries to jump off then the Stego will just one shot it bam dead

[somber sphinx]

Allo wil maybe be able to hunt a stego but it would be really hard for it and a Utah pack will most likely have the better chance hunting a stego

[hollow canyon]

"Utahs can't hunt it"
"Huntable by allos mmmm such an apex"

[hollow canyon]

it is absolutely possible

You are just likely to take losses

[regal goblet]

Nah Utah's hunt stegos with ease rn with magnetic pounce just don't pounce and get faced uphill

[hollow canyon]

but it's very much doable and not even that hard

[fickle bone]

Oh yeah forgot about that

Alr I was wrong

[hollow canyon]

Allo isn't going to be soloing a Stego unless the Stego loses its connection to the server or is controlled by someone really bad at the game

in a pack they might be able to do it but it will be tough for them unless Stego is bad

[fickle bone]

Yeah prolly not

[somber sphinx]

Plus’s allo is a bigger target, will maybe be slower than utah so it would be a harder time hunting a stego

[hollow canyon]

^

Size really doesn't help you there

[frail bobcat]

it makes it worse

[hollow canyon]

Allo is still going to get shishkebabed by a Stego, it's not tanky enough to trade with it

meanwhile it doesn't have the speed and agility to evade its attacks the way a Utah does

Honestly Allos would have an easier time killing a Deino than a Stego

[fickle bone]

Either way, when things like Rex, Giga and others get added I don't see Stego being an "apex"

[frail bobcat]

but it will be

[hollow canyon]

well neither will Deino be an apex by that definition

[frail bobcat]

devs said it

[hollow canyon]

honestly it will be even less of an apex than Stego

Deino was outright stated to be getting turned into minced meat by a Spinosaurus

[frail bobcat]

not less of a apex, a different type of it

[fickle bone]

Akshually I need the source 🤓

[hollow canyon]

"Punchpacket" is the source

[fickle bone]

Where

[hollow canyon]

he was asked about it like a year ago in Isle discussion

he said: "Deino's best bet will be to swim away"

[fickle bone]

yeah well, that's honestly bs

[hollow canyon]

slightly over a year ago actually

[fickle bone]

Deino had a larger biteforce than Rex and it's just as long as them if not longer

[hollow canyon]

it didn't

[fickle bone]

It did

[hollow canyon]

it would absolutely murder a Spino though

[frail bobcat]

guess what, devs dont care

[fickle bone]

Look it up rn and tell me otherwise

[fickle bone]

Yeah ik

[hollow canyon]

I don't have to look it up I know that it didn't have a higher biteforce

[fickle bone]

But it's kinda like saying a croc can't kill a lion

[hollow canyon]

Spino ain't a lion

an average nile croc is twice the size of a lion

[frail bobcat]

no thats different, lions are lighter than crocs, by a lot

[hollow canyon]

Spino dwarfs Deino

[fickle bone]

Ok well I know that I'm right, if you're so ignorant to not look it up and stay by your own facts then whatever ig

[hollow canyon]

and is a Godzilla-like monster in this game

[hollow canyon]

Link to the source that you're using

[somber sphinx]

Spino got arms and size, deino is fukked if it’s near a spino

[fickle bone]

Everything that comes up when I look it up

[hollow canyon]

my bet is you will go with Erickson and Gignac

[fickle bone]

Deinosuchus biteforce and EVERYTHING states that it probably had a larger biteforce than T.Rex

[hollow canyon]

"everything" is wrong then, state the source of your information

what paper are you using to make that claim

[regal goblet]

We will see with time, alot of things can change by the time we get TRex in Evrima

[fickle bone]

Yep

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus didn't bite harder than T.rex irl, we have the remains of prey of both animals

[fickle bone]

Send me a screenshot of Punch saying that "Deino will mince Spino" or whatever he said

[hollow canyon]

Isle discussion channel was wiped after that so I can't do that

if you weren't around to see it - your loss

he also stated that in an encounter with Stego

it will be the Stego that will be doing the pulling

this was before Deino was released when he was asked about who's going to be winning that encounter

[somber sphinx]

Punch’s quote: “deinos best chance against a spino is to swim away”

[regal goblet]

Maybe we can agree that things will be changing and can be changed by the time all these dinos are out. Just bc the dev said one small thing now it isn't always guaranteed. It doesn't help to argue that one side is definitely wrong, when nothing is absolute for these dinos

[hollow canyon]

back when Deino was supposed to have a tug-o-war mechanic

[frail bobcat]

just googled it, the bite force of a deinosuchus was around 18.00 newtons, Trex had 35.000 newtons. Google properly

[hollow canyon]

it's not one small thing, they've been quite consistent

[hollow canyon]

that's not right for either animal just fyi

[fickle bone]

"Furthermore, by Erickson's calculations, the extinct, limousine-size Deinosuchus, or "terrible crocodile," had an estimated bite force as high as 23,100 psi (102,750 newtons)—greater even than new estimates that put T. rex's bite at 12,814 psi (57,000 newtons)." From nationalgeographic BUT it's from 2012 so could be outdated but I'm not too into paleo stuff

[frail bobcat]

bruh

[hollow canyon]

18kN is a biteforce of a saltwater croc

[frail bobcat]

google is a liar

[hollow canyon]

Deino bit harder than that

[hollow canyon]

told you you'd go with Erickson and Gignac

[fickle bone]

No idea who those 2 are

[hollow canyon]

those are the authors of the study you're quoting

[fickle bone]

alr

[hollow canyon]

I've read it - the whole thing

[fickle bone]

alr

[hollow canyon]

there's a funny thing they said regarding their estimate of the biteforce of Deinosuchus

[fickle bone]

But doesn't it say SOMETHING when everything says that Deino did have a stronger biteforce than T.Rex if that's all that comes up when you look it up?

[fickle bone]

What?

[frail bobcat]

it might be outdated

[hollow canyon]

let me find the study to quote it properly

[hollow canyon]

here you go:

"Note: the upper bound bite-force estimate for Deinosuchus riograndensis is more tenuous since the largest known fossil crocodilian specimens greatly exceed the neontological size range studied here.)"

[fickle bone]

What

[hollow canyon]

You get such high biteforces for Deinosuchus when you upscale the biteforce of the animal proportionally to the size increase compared to its extant relatives

[hollow canyon]

They are saying that the estimate is tenuous because Deinosuchus is much bigger than the crocodiles we have around

[fickle bone]

bruh

[hollow canyon]

we have bones of things that got bitten by those animals - Deinosuchus didn't cause them to explode

meanwhile Purussaurus and Tyrannosaurus did

[fickle bone]

alr

[hollow canyon]

a relatively young Purussaurus biting a femur of a ground sloth caused the bone of the poor thing to implode

Deino didn't need to bite that hard

[frail bobcat]

can I see a picture of one of those bones, sounds pretty cool

[fickle bone]

Epic

[hollow canyon]

they are somewhere on paleotalk I could look for them for you

[fickle bone]

Well great discussion even tho we went completely off topic for the channel but yk it happens

[hollow canyon]

Yea it happens

here's the picture of the bone in question

the animal that did it bit harder than a fully grown saltwater croc despite being smaller than it

as for the balance - Deino currently is already a very good animal

I've been playing only Deino since I got back to the game in late October

I'm not quite confident enough to try to take on a Stego in an all out fight although I had some encounters with them

both sides lived though it was more like a war between Deinos and Stegos

and both would just retreat after losing some health

I'd personally buff Deino's water so that it doesn't dehydrate in a matter of seconds and maybe buff its run-time a little bit

it's already goddamn slow like a snail, it doesn't have to also go out of stam in a matter of 10 seconds or so

[errant plinth]

the problem with adding stego to carnos diet instead of deer is while yes baby/early juvie stegos are actually possible to kill most of the time they are very closely protected by other stegos that didnt just pick the creature to slaughter people unchallenged once they reach adult, this really just feels like a suggestion by another vengeful utah player that wants to kick carnos while they're down for how dangerous they were around update 4 now that utahs rule the roost basically unchallenged.

[urban birch]

I think you guys should wait until the changes in the diet system come with update 6. It’s getting a complete overhaul and personally I don’t think slapping a bandaid on the issue by adding stego to the diet is what the devs have in mind

[neon willow]

Honestly I don't think they should replace deer with stego, but I think they should add stego. Carno, unlike most playables, only has 2 sources of lipid/bread sticks/two line diet.

[errant plinth]

thats basically my reasoning for thinking thats a terrible idea and its just another bully suggestion to nerf carno more due to utah mains bias against it for how miserable it was for them to deal with in update 4

[thin mantle]

@worldly parrot I agree ptera should be able to carry chickens and crabs, but don’t bring in irl birds to add credibility. Irl birds can use their incredibly muscular feet located at their center of gravity below their wings to carry larger objects than they would otherwise….ptera would have to use its mouth, logistically speaking a ptera of our size would find carrying a crab or chicken very difficult to impossible in flight….nevertheless I agree they should

[thin mantle]

@placid wave Deino isn't designed to be an apex hunter, poor mobility and complete and total engagement authority cement this and I can't see that ever changing, if any dino that comes for a drink, no matter the size, can just have their leg broken with essentially no choice but to facetank and hope they don't die is both an awful matchup for all parties involved and entirely unnecessary as deino's niche is very definitively carved out and it's arguably too effective at filling it, which is that of an opportunistic ambush predator specializing in animals it CAN fit in it's mouth

[placid wave]

The leg breaking component was mainly for those Deinos who DO venture inland to hunt a little. I can understand it not being designed to be an Apex hunter, but at the same time, when most of the gameplay for a Deino is sitting either completely submerged in water, or sitting on land NEXT to water, waiting for something to arrive, it gets a bit boring. These are mainly QOL suggestions to make it suck a little bit less

[frail bobcat]

Its a alligator, what do you expect?

[thin mantle]

Deino shouldn't venture inland to hunt, nor should it be encouraged to, adding QOL balance changes that make it better at fulfilling roles it shouldn't isn't a qol change, it's just causing problems

[thin mantle]

Plus deino is quite literally the second most viable animal in game, it doesn't need any help, the strategy would be to not instigate combat with the only animal capable of killing you, or if you really want to do it in pairs, if you're somewhat good at deino you can't lose

Plus guaranteed outcome matchups are so incredibly lame, if deino has the capacity to break legs, that just means it'll use it on animals it absolutely can facetank, because that's as deep as it's combat/movement allow that matchup to go unfortunately

And remember, deino is both the largest AND most well hidden animal in the game rn

[keen plover]

Even if deino legbreaks something, it ain't catching it

[thin mantle]

It's not gonna be a hard move to pull off

[thin mantle]

Well that's my point, it's either insanely overpowered or entirely useless

depending on how slow that animal becomes post break

[keen plover]

It just makes it impossible to actually bully them

[thin mantle]

It's just playing more into deino's matchups having zero depth

[dusky surge]

I love watching deino players always consistently come to the end message of “deino should melt stego”

Every deino related feedback post is essentially a salty deino main complaining one of its matchups isn’t exceptionally in its favour

[thin mantle]

It's such a bizarre fantasy

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[thin mantle]

Why deino of all things....actually why

[thin mantle]

Which is especially frustrating because if it's buffed to be the superior of anything, it's just a guaranteed outcome matchup because deino's combat doesn't enable skill expression

[dusky surge]

“Because it’s an apex”

Yes, with a niche designed towards small game ambushes, it’s not at all geared to deal with a land creature with insane damage

[frail bobcat]

But deino should have favorable matchups against every other playable- every balance-feedback deino main

[dusky surge]

It almost does

7/9 matchups are HEAVILY deino favoured

[keen plover]

Not even favourable. It completely dominates everything that isn't stego. They just want deino to beat stego all the time

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[thin mantle]

7/9 matchups don't have the possibility of a deino losing....

[dusky surge]

I don’t see HOW people fail to acknowledge the awful effect deino beating stego will have on the ecosystem

[thin mantle]

As if stego is even remotely relevant to deino's outside of some bizarre sense of territorial respect

[dusky surge]

People whine about stego but if deino could kill it effectively, oh GOD

[thin mantle]

U3 deino pre hitbox fix when deino literally roamed the plains in utah sized packs

[dusky surge]

Everything stego represents atm is multiplied 20 times over

With the unstoppable, unkillable land croc

[frail bobcat]

I never played with landcrocs, but I imagine it to be horrible

[thin mantle]

Stealth + Best damage + borderline immunity to bleed + instakills 8/9 animals....lets make that 9/9

[keen plover]

It was terrible. Literally everyone was deino

[dusky surge]

It’s like people choose to ignore U3

[frail bobcat]

Its almost like they enjoyed deino being op

[keen plover]

I remember playing as a carno and not finding any food after going around the map. I saw like 20 deinos in one pond.

[thin mantle]

U3 was and still is my favorite period of the games history despite it's issues....but dear god....land crocs

[placid wave]

I just had 3 100% grown Deinos attack a single adult Stego, it nearly killed two of us, and got away... that in itself makes no sense

[keen plover]

... Locational damage

[thin mantle]

Lol I cannot believe you lost that's insane, I've soloed stegos as a deino in the current game version.....

[frail bobcat]

Because you werent good enoug. 3 crocs can take one stego down

[keen plover]

If 3 of you were hitting the body or head, you would out DPS the stego

[thin mantle]

even if a single deino is bad, it'll take the stego to sub 30% hp

[placid wave]

Getting off topic, Ive only recently started playing Deino, and from my experience so far, it could use some small changes. Maybe not to the extent I suggested, but some smaller changes

[frail bobcat]

• it has instakill matchups for 7/9 playable

[thin mantle]

None that make it any better than it already is...it's demonstrably the best combat relevant animal in the game

[keen plover]

Of all the playables in the game, deino is the playable with the least amount of changes required

[thin mantle]

Well....I wouldn't say that

I'd definitely argue deino needs a LOT of changes

[frail bobcat]

Which?

[keen plover]

Tbf, the changes you want probably won't ever happen. I want it too, but yeah

[thin mantle]

Oh they never will, deino is for some reason allergic to having interesting gameplay

[thin mantle]

I'd change a lot of it's gameplay fundamentally, along with map changes so that stealth is actually....somewhat challenging....everything in the game is already required to enter it's striking range, few ambush predators can say the same, it doesn't also need complete invisibility

[keen plover]

I don't know why an apex carni grows in 4 hours and 30 minutes

[thin mantle]

lmao

[frail bobcat]

So you would just make more challenging to play, seems fair

[somber sphinx]

We talking deino in here?

[thin mantle]

Primarily, I almost think it's generous to say more challenging, deino just doesn't require skill to play as rn, it needs a lot more for it to get to a point where it's a challenge, of which it absolutely should be

[keen plover]

Alberto casually growing for 3-4 hours and getting one shot by the 4 hour and 30 minute grow

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah babyyyyy

[thin mantle]

Honestly I don't want anything to be subjected to that kind of an undodgeable oneshot attack regardless of growth time, the growth time just makes it funnier

[keen plover]

Deino will technically be an easier grow when compared to alberto as well

[thin mantle]

Especially with elders and perks coming to the game

[keen plover]

👍 Fair

[thin mantle]

The only thing that can possibly make deino a challenge to grow....is if for some reason they make spino a faster swimmer than it...that's about it....and that's not coming for a number of years

[somber sphinx]

Nice I have a proposal, make is so even deino is underwater and fast swims it creates waves so it has to be more sneaky

[frail bobcat]

I want interactive water back

[rustic karma]

1 thing deino should have is ability to see better underwater at night

[keen plover]

True

[somber sphinx]

Yeah that too

[keen plover]

Deino should have better NV in general

[thin mantle]

If deino literally always caused noticeable disturbances in the water....then yeah it'd mostly work....it'd still have absolutely ASS gameplay but at least it wouldn't be wrecking the gameplay for everything in the game

[thin mantle]

Very true

[keen plover]

So it can see stuff coming to the waters edge... but I hate giving deino even more good stuff...

[thin mantle]

Well it just straight up needs mechanical nerfs....not necessarily nerfs to it's current abilities but additional mechanics that deal in detecting it...because I honestly don't know how to fix lunge aside from making deino smaller :p

[keen plover]

I hate balancing creatures around grow time... but if they're not going to change deinos size or stats, they really need to increase the overall time it takes to get to full grown

It's fine now I guess, but whenever they add other stuff in

[thin mantle]

Ehh....I do think it should take longer to grow but I don't think that addresses it's actual flaws

[keen plover]

grow time is a poor nerf man...

[dusky surge]

tbh, U3 was pretty decent (even if it was a carnivore party), and I have a lot of nostalgia for it, but U6 is very much gunning for its place of fave update.

[keen plover]

I don't think they'll address the 'flaws'.

[thin mantle]

Yeah....everything was quite capable, carno was a force to be reckoned with but utahs in groups of 3 or more could reliably fight a carno off, teno's were very strong but not to a point that was particularly oppressive, mainly because teno can't catch anything....and despite land deino's shallow drinking spots were abundant so you were rarely dyeing from complete bs

[keen plover]

I think we've been arguing about deino for a lifetime now. But every update, it gets some buff.
You make water not suitable to deino and then you get complaints about it. "Too shallow"....

[thin mantle]

Yeah they're never gonna make any meaningful changes to deino to make it coalesce with the game aside from potential water quality fixes....that's just something I've resigned myself to

I've basically accepted that mid tiers won't be my cup of tea

unfortunately

[keen plover]

Yeah, my only hopes are shallow spots now & clear water

[thin mantle]

Yeah...let deino ACTUALLY be opportunistic and prey on the idiots...space the shallow spots out ofc but don't completely eliminate them

[keen plover]

Yeah, but deino players want action 24/7

Every river needs to be connected and every water must be 'viable'.

[somber sphinx]

I feel like deino should be a patient playable waiting for its prey and it would be common for it to not have any action

[keen plover]

Which is the main reason there are so many deinos. There is no risk. Make it where starving is a risk for them

[thin mantle]

Can't wait for bary to exist so aquatic mains can actually have an animal that aligns with a playstyle they want

[keen plover]

They have fish so they'll grow easy, but let them get to the end of growth and need to actually compete with other deinos

Right now, I can be sat in a river with 10 other deinos and all of our hungers will be maxed

[placid wave]

Once you get to 90-100% growth, fish give little food

[thin mantle]

You can effortlessly survive on them despite the amount of food they give

[keen plover]

Yeah, which means they get their easy grow. But once they get to full adult, you should be competing for everything

[thin mantle]

a few laps around the map will show you where all the megaspawn zones for them are

[keen plover]

I wish

But nope, it needs to be catered to everyone

[thin mantle]

It's almost like certain dino's are representative of classes...with different playstyles

It's like a medic main wondering why it doesn't deal the same DPS as the assault class

[keen plover]

Yeah... Which is the main reason why this game just doesn't feel like a survival game. It's literally just a PVP game with side quests

[thin mantle]

And tbf, pvp will ALWAYS be the most engaging element of the game and I don't want to take that away from it...but pvp comes in many forms

You don't have to brawl everything to be engaging with pvp

[keen plover]

Yeah. The PVP in this game is great. It just needs the survival element to be improved (which it will)

[somber sphinx]

I feel like I’d you pick deino then you shouldn’t be expected to have a fight everywhere, kinda like Herrera too and soo on

[thin mantle]

Or really....be fighting at all, your whole playstyle is stealth and ambushed based

Your whole niche is quite literally not fighting

[dusky surge]

a big issue with how shallows were done in U3 was because it was a bigass line through the most populated part of the map

[somber sphinx]

Problem is that most people that play deino dosent think like that, they want to fight 24/7 even tho deino isn’t designed for that

[thin mantle]

Yeah I'd appreciate shallows if it's like how shallow sections of some irl winding rivers worked where they alternate from side to side slowly over time as the sedimentary deposits change, just a 30-40 meter long stretch of a curve in a river with a shallow section that moves gradually....VERY gradually

That'd be neat, alternatively we could have swampy shallows for the spinosaurids

[keen plover]

Yet deino was abundant I guess if the argument that it wasn't fun was a factor then yeah, but they were still surviving with insane numbers.

[dusky surge]

even better if shallows and depths changed their locations with weather

[thin mantle]

Deino big apex ooga booga croc gator...must dominate entire island

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-por-que-no-los-dos-yey-gif-15089379

[somber sphinx]

[keen plover]

Yeah, the best way to do it

[rustic karma]

anmother thing

[dusky surge]

you cant camp the same shallow spot if it dries up

[rustic karma]

every singole ctreature needs higher group count

[keen plover]

Not really

[rustic karma]

tf is 2 max deinos

[dusky surge]

not at all

2 max deinos is fine

[thin mantle]

Deino shouldn't be packing period

[rustic karma]

makes it funner

[dusky surge]

deino isnt a pack animal, it doesnt need more than that

[thin mantle]

the 2 max on packs is a mercy to people with friends who wanna play it

[placid wave]

You've obviously never been to croc island

[keen plover]

Because food is easy

[placid wave]

the only "easy" food is fish, which sometimes can be hard to find

[thin mantle]

Oh you mean the island just off old shallows that I spent the majority of my deino gameplay in U3 and 4 camping for when utahs would jump the gap to get to NW and shallows? I'm very familiar with it...play a different animal if you expect a social experience

[keen plover]

and the amount of bodies you find

[thin mantle]

I think I've touched every once of accessible land and water in my....roughly...1200 hours in evrima come to think of it

[keen plover]

All I'm saying is. Every time I've played deino, I haven't starved - even when surrounded with a lot of deinos

I wonder why that is

[thin mantle]

I only ever starved with deino when hitboxes for fish were bugged for a week and you couldn't damage them, even in that landscape I just scavenged to adulthood

[keen plover]

I also think the culture of officials servers make it that way. Being a canni generally isn't a good thing. Idk why they even have NA chat. Literally just people airing you out every time you kill your own

[dusky surge]

I just always ambush if I choose to cannibalise

And always hunt small deinos

I want to live and have good nutrients, not get into drama, its not a personal thing

[keen plover]

I kill larger deinos when I play, but every time that happens, you get a person crying in NA chat about cannis

Saying your skin and stuff and server

I remember when there was people patrolling to kill cannis lol

[dusky surge]

I don't even surface, that way they can't see my colours

[keen plover]

Yeah, that's fair

I'm just speaking on the nature of officials.

It's very common for people to dislike cannis

[dusky surge]

I am VERY methodical about cannibalism as deino, I don't do it often, but when I do, I avoid any bull that can come out of it

Deinos are my best source of the S nutrient

[keen plover]

Yeah, they're great

[dusky surge]

I'm going to eat them if I need them

I'll obviously eat carno or utah first, but opportunity should be taken when presented

[keen plover]

Unlike carno, you're screwed if a deathsquad decides to come around as deino.

[somber sphinx]

It’s always fun watching juvi carnos run up towards me expecting me to be their parent only for me to eat them

[thin mantle]

Last week I was playing carno, canni'd another carno since it was the 9th one I'd seen in the past 30 minutes and I'd decided it was time to cull the population....killed him with half hp remaining, then 5 minutes later out of a random bush another carno with the exact same skin charged and killed me while I was healing....covered in mud....away from the body.... so i'm 99% sure I got alt'd

and I've decided....carno isn't my cup of tea xD

I'll just stick to dryo and teno

[somber sphinx]

I killed 3 juvis as a sub one time and they all respawned abd tried to kill me lol

[keen plover]

Just something I found funny, but yeah. Being a canni is a big no no 😁

[thin mantle]

At least they didn't have adult alts...

[somber sphinx]

plays a cannibalic species
Complains about cannibalism

[thin mantle]

I'm too pro equality to afford members of my own species any good faith

[keen plover]

It's quite laughable how pressed people become after you kill them. Just relax and have fun

[keen plover]

No clue how they function

[thin mantle]

I can understand that when deino's involved....their combat doesn't express skill...and as another animal getting killed by a deino feels...really bad

[keen plover]

100%

[keen plover]

I get that.

[tranquil pawn]

I am so tired of people playing deino and thinking it should kill stego when it's not a stego killer

[somber sphinx]

Or shouldn’t cannibalize

[thin mantle]

I'm even more elitist with it, I'm tired of people thinking deino is designed for combat

[tranquil pawn]

and crocodiles can't even see underwater that well, they just have really good sense of vibrations

I agree with both of you XD

[thin mantle]

I still remember when that was a hot take back in U3...very glad time has progressed since then....

[tranquil pawn]

[placid wave]

Deino vision underwater at night......

you cant tell, but theres a fish directly to my left which, even I didnt see until I swam forward

[hasty coyote]

That’s because there were issues with NV underwater, so they just decided to disable it for now to replace the old NV.

Hopefully U6 or 6.5 come with the NV changes and make it more interesting.

[alpine acorn]

agreed. Even though Deino is a canni, along with Carnos, people start shaming you for it.

I've seen more toxic words said to me for canni. My only reason for doing it: 10% food

[dusky surge]

I love how you can be starving, desperate and without any other viable food source, and you'll still be the villain for cannibalising

[alpine acorn]

yep, thats how it goes.

Like its my fault that the word 'Deino' is in my nutrients list? its an option, leave meh alone. Have you ever seen a group of crocs in rl partroling and killing cannis? LMFAO

[dusky surge]

I'm going to DIE if I don't eat, you are 10% grown, it's REALLY not that big a deal man

[keen plover]

I feel like these ideals will change once the game becomes more unforgiving

[dusky surge]

And once we have a larger roster so that I can eat other deinos WITHOUT a collective killsquad of 10 deinos rock up and slaughter me

I have gotten so sneaky about cannibalism to avoid being labelled a cannibal for life and killed

If I'm hungry, and there's literally zero other option, I will eat deino, I want to live

[hollow canyon]

Weaklings, I embrace my villainy

die, die other Deinos

I eat other Deinos even when I have other food, I'd rather eat another Deino than any other thing

[alpine acorn]

LETS GO

WHAT A TOPE G

EMBRACE MASCULINITY

XD, i hope this offends someone

[tall bronze]

I just never understood why someone who doesn't like cannibalization plays something known to cannibalize and then gets mad when it happens. Like what did ye expect? 😛

That's like hating cake, walking into a bakery, and then getting appalled that they have the audacity to sell cakes.

[frail bobcat]

Ok, so omni pounce

I would love the buck changes tbh

Shark made this but it’s similar if not identical to novas

General pounce/grab/latch/bucking relationship rework (for reference, pounced dino=pouncee and pouncing dino=pouncer here)

When the pouncee bucks, the pouncer can hold a button to “brace”. Bracing means you lose very little stamina from the bucks, but you do no damage at all and just hold on for dear life.

Also give pouncees a second “big buck” that’s a tap rather than a hold, doing one big thrash/swing/whatever that immediately throws off whatever is grabbing onto it (assuming it’s smaller than them, so not a case of like a deino grabbing a teno lol). This move takes a second to perform and the pouncer has a second of “warning” when it’s about to happen so they can dismount to avoid getting bucked off. This move takes a lot of stamina for the pouncee to use and it’s important for the pouncer to bait out stamina with these big bucks essentially, they need to be used carefully and are kinda last resort
Those

[thin mantle]

I’d combine that with the pounce accessibility changes we talked about in isle discussion

[frail bobcat]

Yes

Because utah really is not fun rn

And pounce is also not

[thin mantle]

You need to pounce the flanks to get a latch for 90% of animals, for those 10% remaining you COULD pounce the head but taking damage from the front during a pounce is borderline fatal

[thin mantle]

Yeah Omni is kinda just a magnetic bleed applicator

[frail bobcat]

Yes

So imma try to make a suggestion and post in here and if we both like it, imma post in #balance-feedback

[thin mantle]

Like even if Omni is one of the few small tiers capable of hunting massive animals….I don’t think it should have its difficulty scaled in ratio to an animal that doesn’t punch up hunting it’s normal targets

Hunting something even double your own size shouldn’t be easy

In pairs much easier

[frail bobcat]

Carno . . .

[thin mantle]

But then we get into the mid tiers….and those guys should be hard

Apexes should require massive numbers and coordination

[frail bobcat]

Imma write a suggestion real quick

[thin mantle]

Go for it

[frail bobcat]

@thin mantle posted it

[hasty coyote]

read the post, it seems interesting and could help alleviate many of the problems.

But I'd have to see how that "big buck" thing plays out, a second may be too long. However, I could be entirely wrong on that. Plus, theres a lot that goes into pounce and fighting utahs in general already, adding more mechanics makes it harder even for newer players (both prey and predator) and creates more ways for pounce to break.

[thin mantle]

Tbf the use of pounce at all should be very high skill floor

[frail bobcat]

A tutorial could help with that

Like a ingame tutorial mode

Where you are taught the basics of every playable

But how would pounce break, may I ask?

[hasty coyote]

yes, but it also makes trying to fight utahs very difficult for newer players. Like imagine playing the game for a bit and learning how all teno's moves work. Then you fight a utah and now need to learn entirely new mechanics just to be able to deal with them moderately. It could be a bit much

[frail bobcat]

As the original creator of the idea meant, its for pounce in general, so troodon too

[hasty coyote]

that could help, but it would have to be taught specifically against utah basically. Troo's pounce is like a tap from what we have seen and heard so far.

[frail bobcat]

Maybe when tutorialing as the first animal that can be pounced, it will be explained in its tutorial

But it would make pounce much more fun

[hasty coyote]

I'm not saying its entirely bad, just could end up being too complicated. Like bracing and big buck may be a bit too much imo. However, again, I'd have to see how it plays out, and if/when they make in-game tutorials.

[thin mantle]

I’m fine with that tbh, just add tutorials to the game

[frail bobcat]

They could make a herbie tutorial where you get attacked by omnis once and then you get pounce explained

[hasty coyote]

Like, a good chunk of the playerbase still doent know how to buck alone, now imagine them trying to learn bracing and big bucks. You would definitely need tutorials for complicated combat like that

[frail bobcat]

Something along the lines off "this is a omniraptor, you will see those often. Here is how to deal with them." They pounce you, you do the bucking and they leave.

[frail bobcat]

I literally do not know how they can not know how to buck. It literally says "press e to buck"

[hasty coyote]

I don't think I have seen that message, but I also don't pay much attention down there while im trying to get a utah off me.

[frail bobcat]

It appears every time

[hasty coyote]

then I can't wait for the people complaining that there's no counterplay because they don't understand all those mechanics

So again, I'd have to see in-game tutorials coming soon before I'd advocate for that level of combat complexity.

[frail bobcat]

I think tutos are planned

[alpine plover]

Didn’t really know where to ask so hopefully here is okay, just wanted to see what others thoughts were on it, How do you guys think Bary will be balanced ?

More specifically, what is its place / purpose ? Where can it even survive ?

It’s too vulnerable to Carno / Utah packs on land so has to escape to the water, but surely the moment it goes into the water it’s just going to die to Deinos ?

I’m just struggling to see how an Dino that relies on water bodies / rivers for its safety and food can even get by when those waters are filled with an apex that completely dominates it.

What even are the options to make that sharing of environment remotely fair ? Make bary swim faster ? Give bary a similar ‘blue splash’ sense to what Deino has so it can avoid Deino?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[dusky surge]

It would make perfect sense for bary to get deino's water sense, as irl, spinosaurids all had a similar ability to sense for vibrations. Bary is also mentioned to be fast and capable on both water and land, and is one of the animals that suffers the least from choosing to remain in either for extended periods

[somber sphinx]

Bary v carno I’d feel would be skill based too, bary got them huge arms and claws

[dusky surge]

Ehhh

I wouldn't go so far tbh, bary is still MUCH smaller

[thin mantle]

Unless Bary gets a spino type face swat to deflect hits...

[somber sphinx]

I mean yeah carno would most likely have the advantage but if bary is near/in the water then it would have a good chance

[thin mantle]

Well yeah if bary is literally inaccessible it has the advantage

[somber sphinx]

Bary shoots it’s claws towards its foes

Nail guns

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/dbz-fight-gif-25846976

Bary never skips arm day

[somber sphinx]

Bary takes care of his nails

[thin mantle]

Bary is snatched, positively fabulous, and always the moment

Somebody photoshop diva bary

[somber sphinx]

Yes, look at this happy boy

[thin mantle]

Slay queen

[somber sphinx]

Slayy ||slaughter your enemies||

[thin mantle]

Slaayyy ||Your enemies using the rage of hell||

[alpine plover]

Such a beautiful quackodile

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/doomguy-gif-20038208

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/doom-slayer-crucible-gif-24098567

[somber sphinx]

Such elegance

[thin mantle]

God I love the headcanon that bary is secretly doomguy disguised as a cosmetologist

He'll make you look fabulous while decimating your entire species

[somber sphinx]

Bary taking down satan (hyper rex)

But unironicaly bary is the pseudo mid carno im most excited for mega is a close second

[alpine plover]

Im more excited for Bary than anything, I just hope it doesn’t end up as nothing more than croc food lol

[dusky surge]

Pseudo mids are honestly way more interesting than mids

I get it, mid-tier has allo, but like, how interesting even is allo lmao

[somber sphinx]

Yeah, only mid tier im excited for is Alberto

[dusky surge]

I think mid-tier is where you go from the creative/interesting/unique abilities of the smalls and start entering the kind of "everyone is a big fighter animal" area, and you lose a bit more of the creative charm used to keep the smaller animals viable

[somber sphinx]

Yeah but I think it will have enough oxygen to not drown and escape

[alpine plover]

I thought maybe about an ability where Bary could escape grabs by clawing at Deinos eyes? But that feels cheap and unfun for deino I guess

[somber sphinx]

Yeah there are few mid tiers and apexes I’m excited for than smals to pseudo mids

[somber sphinx]

I think just making it have good oxygen and agility would be enough for it

[dusky surge]

I personally don't really have a single mid-tier I really care about, lol, I'll play them, sure, but probably not consistently

[somber sphinx]

Alberto and Maia for me

[thin mantle]

I'll genuinely boycott megalania if it can't climb rocks as an adult >:(

[dusky surge]

This is fair

[somber sphinx]

That I would like tbh

[alpine plover]

Those, and making it so it can sense + have the in water agility to escape deinos would be nice too.

Maybe Bary could have it’s in water sprint be faster than Deinos, but it absolutely drains stamina so can’t be used for anything more than a quick escape to shore ?

[somber sphinx]

Not steep cliffs but rocky areas.

[thin mantle]

But actually why not.....not anything that exceeds vertical but unironically vertical mega climbing sounds perfect for the environments I envision it existing in

Ofc it'd climb pretty slowly but still....

[somber sphinx]

Yeah having somewhat of a water sense to get fish and other aquatics, and by that last part do you mean like how you lunge underwater you go really fast if just W + shift

[thin mantle]

Does it present any balancing issues aside from being too fun? ;(

[somber sphinx]

I feel like it would be too heavy and have too much sort of

[somber sphinx]

Yes, because then my Alberto can’t catch it

[thin mantle]

Oh don't come at me with a weight based argument in THIS game

Quetz is gonna take off with galli's in it's mouth

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/i-just-did-ill-do-it-again-dont-tempt-me-jon-taffer-bar-rescue-gif-10202892

[somber sphinx]

Perfectly balanced as all things should be

[thin mantle]

I hate it too but only for balance reasons....the logistics are lost on me at this point

Omni can pounce ffs

[alpine plover]

I mean like, Say when Bary goes into the water, holding W is just a decently paced swim, but holding W+Shift is kinda like a panic full power swim, Make it faster than Deinos sprint swim, but it only takes like 5-10 seconds of doing that to completely drain your stamina.

Basically just so that if Bary is in the water and it sees the blue splishy splashy of a croc approaching it has a panic button go get out of the water ASAP.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah but if megalania was acme to climb rocks off any sort I feel it would be too much if you feel me

[alpine plover]

Short burst of speed, kinda like a bary version of a dryo dodge lol

[thin mantle]

But WHY

I don't understand

Warden why are you against fun >:(

[somber sphinx]

Faster than deinos speed? Hmmm I feel like that could work but idk yet

[somber sphinx]

IDK it’s just a feeling, but the more I think about it the more I kinda agree with it

Also fun is for loosers

[dusky surge]

IDK, mega adults climbing VERY slowly and with some good level of stamdrain would be fine.

So they're not climbing into the tops of trees

[thin mantle]

Oh no, they can't even climb trees period, just rocks

[dusky surge]

Nor are they suddenly scampering out of view

[thin mantle]

Rocks and cliffs

[alpine plover]

Maybe not faster than Deino, I can see how that’s a problem in many ways, But fast enough to give Bary a fair chance of reaching the shore in time

[somber sphinx]

As long as it’s not free and just rocks then I’m fine whit it

[dusky surge]

Trees are easier to climb than rocks tho, makes sense

[thin mantle]

It's mostly for niche partitioning, again quetz is gonna swoop galli's and omni's can pounce, so I'm playing fast and loose with logistics

[dusky surge]

I def like the idea of a mega slowly climbing a cliff

[somber sphinx]

Yeah then I agree, tho it will most likely have some sort of way to escape like
Good agility, good speed to get yo the shore, good oxygen so it dosent drown if a deink grabs it, and underwater sense (I hope for that last part)

[dusky surge]

Climbing up cliff faces could lead to some decent ambushes (you put your nest on a cliff to try and make sure you can cover your flanks better, you fool, mega is coming, very slowly, but surely)

[alpine plover]

Oh god Bary Deino mix packs baiting Carnivores to the shore are gonna be something else lol

[thin mantle]

Deino still 3 shots barry so even if it lunges the barry likely dies anyway

[thin mantle]

Mhm, and if larger ledges exist on some cliffs, that could be a neat nesting spot for megas as well

[somber sphinx]

It does actually I forgot about that

[thin mantle]

Bary having a burst of speed type ability that makes it faster than deino for a short distance is more than justified unless the spinosaurids have a prodominantly shallows biome to fill

But if it's just lakes and rivers of crude oil like we have now then it's gonna need more

[somber sphinx]

Actually, yeah it having a short Burt of speed to get away is fine, aslong as bary only gets it don’t think sucho or spino would need it

[dusky surge]

I think deino is going to be the best swimmer iirc, but other animals have a ton of little tricks they can pull to NOT die to it

Sucho doesn't need it because sucho doesn't even need to be in deino's territory imho

Spino can't even swim lmao

[somber sphinx]

Exactly

Sucho would just chill on land and spino would do spino things

[tall bronze]

"Hey Deino, check out how I'm better than you"

thirst doesn't disappear in 3 seconds

👈

[thin mantle]

Plus spino just bodyslams deino or goes on land if there's 2

Bary is the only one I'm actually worried about

[dusky surge]

Yea but bary can book it out the water better than any other semi

[tall bronze]

I always did like the idea of Bary just bolting onto land from the water all crazy like

https://tenor.com/view/alligator-see-ya-later-surprise-scary-holy-shit-gif-15208588

[thin mantle]

IF it can

[somber sphinx]

And bary is worried about you, he cares about you

[thin mantle]

Bary is both the bringer of darkness and a therapist, he murders while giving you life advice

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/want-baryonyx-dinosaur-dinosaurs-claws-gif-25600988

He just wants his fish

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/no-swimming-execution-baryonyx-dinosaur-swim-gif-25252148

[somber sphinx]

He’s just like me

[tall bronze]

No.

The other GIF

[somber sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/baryonyx-dinosaur-claws-slice-scratch-gif-25607206

[tall bronze]

[somber sphinx]

[alpine plover]

Can you put suggestions for animals that aren’t ingame yet into the Balance feedback Channel? (I did want to put those bary ideas in there but wasn’t sure if it was allowed)

[naive furnace]

idk about yall but i want some apexs screw mid tiers apexs all the way

[stark knoll]

Of course!

[somber sphinx]

Mid tiers > apexes. Adding apexes rn would screw the balance, stego and deino already showed that

[dusky surge]

we already have apexes, and people hate them (especially stego)

[somber sphinx]

And mid tiers sound s more fun than “I’m big”

[dusky surge]

People out here like "we need more apexes" when they already hate the apexes we got

[naive furnace]

i love deino only thing i hate about it is how slow it is and how i never run into other players besides dienos

[tall bronze]

"We need more apexes"

"omg why is there apex spam it's legacy all over again"

[dusky surge]

True

Also other apex carnis besides deino would be completely incapable of supporting themselves

[tall bronze]

Demonstrate why an apex predator in a small ecosystem cannot survive >:)

YEKILLALLYERHOSTS

[thin mantle]

Tbf it's not an apex problem as much as it is a problem with deino being immortal to any and all land animals...and stego being THE pack counter

[tall bronze]

That and "spawn, eat fimsh, wait, win"

[naive furnace]

the small eco system is because they cap the servers at 100 people and not alot of people play, if they were to combine say all the na servers into one and cap it at say 500 there would be alot more player encounters

[dusky surge]

Deino has a slow starvation rate, extremely low actually, it barely needs to eat compared to other animals (not a complaint, makes perfect sense for a deino to have such a slow metabolism), but a rex, for instance, NEEDS larger prey to survive, it's entirely incapable of surviving on fish alone, it must hunt actively and frequently, and without a diversity of larger animals to prey upon, it'd die by merit of its own metabolism. A rex in this ecosystem would be like a hypo-rex in the base ecosystem, far too strong for the other animals, but doomed to starve to death

[thin mantle]

Mhm, easiest growth in the game not counting ptera....at least dryo actually has to look for it's diets from spawn

[somber sphinx]

That too

[thin mantle]

Like if trike was added at the same size as stego is rn....it'd prolly be less of a problem, or better yet...something like para...not that I WANT those in the game but as a comparative improvement absolutely

[somber sphinx]

Was just about to say that

[dusky surge]

Trike honestly would be fine. Tons of utahs would have a better chance against it than stego

[thin mantle]

Mhm, and as much as I fundamentally disagree with Omni's commonly hunting apexes...it'd definitely be more common

[naive furnace]

well if you look at it adding a land and aquatic apex was a bad idea, if you added 2 land or 2 aquatic apexs counter parts a herbi and carni it would balance better

[dusky surge]

We don't have an aquatic herbi apex

[thin mantle]

Cheirus

[dusky surge]

That's an omni

We also absolutely don't need any land carni apexes as is

[thin mantle]

Technically most if not all large herbivores supplement their diets with meat from time to time

[somber sphinx]

Honestly I’d replace stego with kentro and either reduce deinos size to 4 tons or replace it with bary and make it 8 tons again and add stego when bigger animals are added

[thin mantle]

Flashbacks to the cow slorping rabbits essay I wrote in 11th grade

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/james-mcavoy-sweating-fanning-yourself-cooling-off-sweat-meme-gif-25431489

[thin mantle]

I'd reduce it all the way to 2 but that's just me...I fundamentally don't believe deino's playstyle works at it's size without severe alterations to the environment

[tall bronze]

Do Dondi's idea >:3

Kentro arrives
Stego becomes AI only
The golden boy

[thin mantle]

Mmmmmmmmyesssss

[somber sphinx]

That would be fine too

[somber sphinx]

3

[dusky surge]

AI only stego sounds utterly ass and I would rather what we have now

[tall bronze]

AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS "bbbbubut what about land Deinos!"

Step 1. 👁️🐊
Step 2. 🚶 🐊

😎👍

[naive furnace]

lol yea u can basically walk away from a deino rn

[somber sphinx]

Not the land deinos I’m worried about is the ones that are in the water

[dusky surge]

Oh, so land deinos get full control of every body and no one gets to eat. I thought we didn't like stegos body camping?

[naive furnace]

the stamina is good for about 15 seconds

[thin mantle]

That's....fine

[somber sphinx]

Dread from it, run from it but you eventually have to drink

[thin mantle]

Tbf that's just cerato but impossible to fight off :p

[tall bronze]

I mean you could either just drag your kill away from water if possible or just not kill stuff that's near water.

P l u s you can also just go find food elsewhere like with Stego. And with Deino, it's gonna dehydrate in 2 seconds 😛

[thin mantle]

We know from U3 that this doesn't work

[tall bronze]

Heck even the devs have talked about being fine with that

[naive furnace]

idk deinos water drain is really high so i dont see them body camping for long

[dusky surge]

Pick up bodies, walk into the water, eat the bodies, no one can stop you

No matter if you spent 30 minutes on a hunt, deino can walk in and take it instantly and you can't do jack. Deino wins, regardless.

[dusky surge]

If you played U3, you'd know how awful letting deino run wild is

[thin mantle]

Why camp a body when you can just eat it or carry it off

[dusky surge]

They will smell your food from miles away, walk onto land, steal it and you can't do anything

[tall bronze]

I'd say that's more of an issue with larger Deinos being too common then.

[dusky surge]

And making stego AI only fixes this how

[tall bronze]

It doesn't, I was just saying that's another issue we gotta fix regardless

[naive furnace]

depends how far the body is from the water if im a deino and in land and i got a 2 min walk back to water im not dragging a body that far

[thin mantle]

It feels absolutely terrible getting a kill then just seeing a deino you can do nothing to stop waddle over to your kill...like it's both effortlessly easy and lazy on the deino's part and incredibly detrimental to the gameplay of all other carnis...why would we want this

[dusky surge]

ALSO FUN FACT, deino CAN'T throw up, so even if it doesn't need to eat, it can devour entire bodies and not suffer any penalty

This animal isn't a body-camper, it's worse, it's a body DELETER

[tall bronze]

I mean I'm also all for reducing it's size for good so that could work as well.

[dusky surge]

Even if it doesn't need/want it, it can CHOOSE to steal anything you've worked on

[thin mantle]

Then it's fine...because you COULD actually fight it off

[dusky surge]

Reducing its size for good still seems hyper lame to me

[thin mantle]

But you need to be able to fight it off otherwise this is just a deino feeding sim

[tall bronze]

Actually it'd be hypo lame

[thin mantle]

Tbh I don't like it's playstyle at the size it's at...sub deino is easily the most fun stage of life, after I hit 90% I usually off myself

[naive furnace]

i mean as unfortunate as it is if you kill a body near water theres that risk of a deino taking it. i mean if u dont want it taken drag it away from water cuz deinos water drain is fast

[dusky surge]

(don't even need to be that close to the water)

deinos can and will take treks for the sole purpose of a single body that is within their scent range

[thin mantle]

No animal in the game can drag as fast as deino can trot

[dusky surge]

And there likely never will be an animal that can

[tall bronze]

On a related note, dragging itself could use some changes

[thin mantle]

Plus....it's insanely lame to have your kills stolen with 0 skill expression

[tall bronze]

It'd be nice if you could drag faster at the cost of stam.

[thin mantle]

Like why is deino the only animal that never has to try for anything

[dusky surge]

You know what stops deino from doing this? Stego being an actual threat

They get scared and stick to the water, because they know if stego sees them, they're getting smacked

[tall bronze]

Almost seems like adding 2 giant creatures in a roster that was supposed to be smaller stuff only was a bad idea

[thin mantle]

Deino's also just embarrassingly integrated regardless of it's size

[tall bronze]

I know that's been said many times but it still irks me

"Yeah we're going to focus on smaller guys to ensure their gameplay is good"

"Also here's Stego and Deino who are watered down because they have to fit into the current roster"

[somber sphinx]

Deino I feel is more broken and was worse to be added, especially at the size it is rn

[naive furnace]

never has to try for anything? we literally sit in the water waiting for another player and im lucky to see one in 45 mins of playing. i literally eat fish non stop. we get bored sitting there with no action and have to go out of the water to find our diets

[tall bronze]

I'd MUCH rather wait for the creature to come at the right time than have it now and not only screw with the rest of the current game, but be a watered down version of it's proper self to compensate

[somber sphinx]

I mean…that’s deino in a nutshell, being super patient and won’t have an encounter 24/7

[thin mantle]

Getting so incredibly bored because your playable lacks depth isn't exactly skill expressive

You don't have to try to do nothing, that's the absence of action

[dusky surge]

Why the hell are you playing deino if you dislike waiting

It's a gator, its entire hunting style is 90% patience

[thin mantle]

There is something to be said about deino's playstyle also just...not being very action packed

[somber sphinx]

Yeah bary and kentro would have been better pucks or reducing drinks size

[dusky surge]

I don't think it's a bad thing, I just think people who pick deino expecting action-packed gameplay are looking for the wrong thing

[tall bronze]

Indeed. Also autocorrect does that to me to, don't worry 🥲

[somber sphinx]

My word is a patient playable, like crocs and gators

[thin mantle]

That's very true, but I'm moreso referring to deino's mechanics literally amounting to the correctly timed press of a single key

[naive furnace]

like i said i like deino but there is no sense in not seeing a single playyer for hours at a time if they took out fish dienos would die and be unplayable

[somber sphinx]

goddamit

[tall bronze]

"I hate running away from things, I wanna be good at fighting stuff"

exclusively picks Dryo

[dusky surge]

Yea. It's a gator. You're not going to see much of anything

[thin mantle]

Well...no they'd just have to focus more on cannibalism and scavenging, taking more risks...etc

It's possible to grow a deino without fish I've done it myself as a test

[dusky surge]

Honestly, MASSIVELY reducing fish could lead to an EXTREMELY competitive and interesting survival for deinos

[thin mantle]

It's hard....but possible, which is kinda the point

[tall bronze]

And also making fish uh.....aware. Which the recent devblog seems to imply.

They're literally free snacks right now.

[dusky surge]

Or even better yet, limiting fish to migration spots so deinos get pissy and fight each other over the right to the fishing area

[thin mantle]

Having apex tier animals being rare would be nice wouldn't it....

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm. And having growth difficulty scale with size/influence would also be nice across the board.

[dusky surge]

Fish are kind of the biggest issue with deino rn, let's be honest. Along with the free growth for 25%, having a consistent, nutritious food source that you can never lose kinda makes deino really easy

[tall bronze]

"Sure you can all pick Deino! 4 out of like 50 of you will make it to full adult but go for it!"

[dusky surge]

Having fish be a resource deinos will literally KILL each other over, however, sounds way more interesting

"I'm making a nest, I need this fish, I will slaughter any animal that dares try to take this from me"

[tall bronze]

While I agree with this, it also does sadly shine light on another issue......Deino vs Deino combat

God, Deino really is just a can of worms, huh

[naive furnace]

lmao its basically just whoever can bite faster or gets more bites in

[thin mantle]

I'd actually prefer apex growth to be the most difficult between the mid juvi through sub to early adult....with the biggest size you reach technically being the most sustainable, but having that size being incredibly uncommon because of the weeding out of the bad players during subadult gameplay, then the real competitive nature between those of your own species would take over...I only really say this because of the terrestrial apex carnivores being massive and slow

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-yes-thats-grand-plankton-gif-24832301

Natural selection basically

That's why I don't like the idea of encountering say a "bad" adult T.Rex player. Because a bad adult T.Rex just shouldn't exist.

[thin mantle]

The only thing I can think of to make it more interesting would be land locked charged bites that deal really REALLY high damge and fracture, so that being the first to enter land and starting your charge would actually be beneficial instead of just facetanking the other deino to death as soon as you see eachother....idk...steps to combat need to be added....plus I really want apex tier animals to have parry mechanics or sidesteps...something...anything

[naive furnace]

if they added more aquatics that could hunt baby to high juvi dienos it would curb the amount of full grown dienos

[tall bronze]

Charged bite with a parry would be perfect, yes. REALLY hope the devs acknowledge this idea ;0;

Plus I wanna say real gators do it 😛

They hold their mouths open, hiss a bunch, get in each other's faces

[thin mantle]

Mhm....I also want adulthood to be a serious reward, I don't subscribe to the sentiment that reaching adulthood should afford the same if not more hellish a playstyle than during growth because I still want the pursuit of nesting, perks, and elders to be possible for them

[naive furnace]

would be cool of we could rip off say a leg in combat

xD

[thin mantle]

save that for post kill....That's just death

[thin mantle]

It's something I've wanted for deino, but honestly most of the apexes for quite some time...Thinking of ideas for how to make their combat interesting despite lacking mobility is tough but I think this helps

[tall bronze]

[naive furnace]

i had an idea if they took out the turn bite for dieno and maybe did a tail slap that could knock down a dino

kinda like a carno charge does

[thin mantle]

That could be neat....but I can't think of basically any scenarios where this is useful unless you're running away from something you really shouldn't be...

[dusky surge]

i mean, tail slap would make sense, but i dont know why you'd remove alt-bite for that

i also don't see much functional use in it

[thin mantle]

A charged bite that you can use while backing up that's landlocked is both more difficult to use and serves the purpose better

[dusky surge]

Yea, def

I always like the idea of a hissing deino warning you to get away from its territory, or face a MASSIVE hit

[thin mantle]

Plus it appeases the paleo people that want deino to have a good bite despite it contradicting it's purpose in game

We can have both, it just needs to take a purposeful form

[dusky surge]

Pros of charged land bite with high damage:

• Deino has a way to defend itself while retreating
• Makes deino seem more like an actual animal
• Allows deino to control its territory better and plays into a more territorial playstyle
• Makes it able to not get bullied by other apexes, but not particularly capable of hunting them, more telling them to go away
• Makes deino fights more mechanically interesting beyond spambites

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/office-michael-scott-thank-you-gif-5278681

Especially point 2. A lot of people ignore the animal feeling fun to be.

[thin mantle]

Preeeecisely....I'd alter "but not particularly capable at hunting them" to "can't be used in a hunting context unless the target isn't moving"

[naive furnace]

i like the idea of being able to tail slap caz when im attacked on land the carnos just attack my ass. and also add in a bone break to that strong bite might be good as well

[thin mantle]

Hence my megalania suggestion >:)

[thin mantle]

Alt bite them....

[dusky surge]

okay but you can just alt-bite them

[tall bronze]

You got my ✅

[thin mantle]

If you disagree with mega cliff climbing you hate fun and deserve pain and suffering

[tall bronze]

Deino bite naturally doing decent fractures but increasing it from "ouch! that's nasty!" to "blushing T.Rex" with a charged bite sounds l o v e l y

[thin mantle]

I wouldn't even have it's basic bite deal fracture if it has a massive fracture ability

[tall bronze]

but Rex

[thin mantle]

I know what you want with fractures being more general but I think that would need to come with a fracture gauge being apart of your ui

[tall bronze]

Either works for me 😛

I think it could work if it's bite speed was lowered which, regardless, I want a lot ;o;

I hate how fast it bites for how big it is

[thin mantle]

Yeah same

[tall bronze]

Especially the alt bite, the bite where you flip your e i g h t t o n body around, being FASTER

How is flipping your fat chonky thicc body around FASTER than just slapping your jaws shut

[thin mantle]

Sometimes I feel like people look at irl crocs doing something similar to this and think it makes perfect sense for deino despite deino being 5 times the size of any croc alive today

[tall bronze]

Yeah I've had several misunderstandings of "um you know gators in real life bite SUPER fast"

I'm not talking about how fast it closes it's jaw, I'm talking about the rate 😛

The speed of the bite itself is fine

It's just how often it can do it in such a short amount of time

[thin mantle]

Also....balance trumps realism in this game, it has to as that is WHAT the gameplay is

Realism is great but it can't be seen as more important

[tall bronze]

Now I don't know how hard this is to do code-wise, but it'd be cool if alt biting speed for certain things changed through growth

So like a juvie Deino could flop around a bunch

[thin mantle]

Not an issue if base speed can already have that done

[tall bronze]

But adult is just like "hyyUGH......huh.....u g h"

https://tenor.com/view/animals-bloated-flamingo-alligator-balls-gif-3535514

[thin mantle]

The cakepop verse :O

[naive furnace]

i mean a deino being 8tons of pure muscle pretty much would make it really strong and capable of quick bursts of speed. imo how fast and how often no idea. but i dont find the alt bite to be all that accurate mine tends to go the opposite way i wanted it to go

[thin mantle]

Rex is 10 tons of pure muscle, it's still slow af

Bodybuilders aren't faster than olympic sprinters because their calves are bigger

[naive furnace]

okay a tiger is what 600 pounds of muscle? and could run down an olympic sprinter like it was a turtle. it has to do with the design of the body and the muscles function. be it short durations or whatever. i see your point but i think the body design of a gator would give it the ability to quickly defend itself if needed for short bursts. maybe the game itself has it a bit excessive though.

[thin mantle]

One must also remember, this gator is MASSIVE

The scale of a bodyplan designed for quick movement massively effects how effective that bodyplan is

[dusky surge]

I don't think it's fair at all to compare an olympic sprinter to a tiger as an anology for deino

A tiger is a built sprinter, first and foremost

It is genetically designed to be VERY fast in a burst of speed

Gators, however, are built for aquatic speed

They have small limbs to reduce drag, smooth, long bodies and a powerful tail

The most functional purpose the limbs have is to get them across the land or drag something from outside the water, inside the water, not to sprint down prey

[naive furnace]

we werent talking about the gator sprinting just how fast the gator could strike to the rear

i think a tail slap would be better than the alt bite

[thin mantle]

Tbh that's basically just alt bite but significantly stronger

You can use it while running away, it CCs

Nothing can really pursue you if it's in CC range

[naive furnace]

dieno is purely defensive in fights on land so i wouldnt allow it to use it while running would have to be stationary

[thin mantle]

But it already has complete and total immunity to death by terrestrial threats by entering the water, it's kinda supposed to have ineptitude on land

[naive furnace]

and thats purely because its the only aquatic dino it has nothing that could pursue it into the water or test it in the water. thats more of the games lack of playable dinos. more than immunity to death. i think the biggest reason people say dieno needs a nerf or changes is because of that.

so it gets all these nerfs and they add in more aquatics that can challenge it and you got people crying to rework it.

[dusky surge]

Even with more aquatics, it'd still be VERY strong

[thin mantle]

Even with more aquatics the only thing that'll possibly threaten it is spino, an animal even less common than it is

And deino will likely still be faster in water

[naive furnace]

as an apex should be apexs should be those dinos you want to think twice about attacking. unless you have some sort of advantage be it speed numbers or somthing

[thin mantle]

Land locked charge bite works for that WAY better than a tail wack

Plus deino is NOT a combative apex

[dusky surge]

Beipi, minmi and austro are too small to challenge deino at really any size, even juvis
Bary gets stomped by adults and outsped by juvis in the water. Even if it DID catch a deino, deino's insane bleed res will ensure that it can avoid death by bleeding
Sucho and cherry are shallow waders and frankly ain't catching a deino
Spino can't even SWIM and is slow as hell, it's not catching it

[thin mantle]

It's a small game opportunist

I swear to god the title of Apex has ruined peoples ability to acknowledge niches

it's only an apex because it's big, that's it

In this game, apex is slang for large

Has been for years...because technically there can only be one apex predator per environment

And that would be rex or spino if anything

But we don't use those terms correctly here...time has proven that

[naive furnace]

okay if you go by apex just being large would it be fair for something smaller to be able to fend orr or kill a large animal even if the animal isnt combat oriented its just large.

[thin mantle]

Yes.....contextually ofc....If the larger animal has an easy way to avoid the threat

Like I believe with no question that omni would decimate a megalania in an open field, but if a megalania can climb and is near a cliff it can easily escape

Deino has an entire biome in which it's the uncontested god of to go to

And that biome is all over the map...any source of water works for this

[naive furnace]

your right as the state of the game is now deino has nothing to fear besides a stego if its on land. i feel as though they should have completed the land roster before adding aquatics cuz thats a totally diffrent biome

[thin mantle]

It won't ever...nothing aquatic can kill it unless it lets itself be killed

The only 2 potential 1v1's it has are cheirus and Spino, it can escape both

Everything else is a pushover or gets instakilled by lunge

[tall bronze]

Strangle Deino

[thin mantle]

It could possibly HAVE interesting matchups if it wasn't so goddamn massive but as it stands....this is what we got

[naive furnace]

and the mistake of adding stego with an aquatic counter doesnt really make sense either. if they were to add in more aquatics like sucho the slightly smaller croc and spino. ima use path of titans for example it has sucho and spino and both can kill deino. and the lunge can be fixed just by changing the weight

[thin mantle]

Deino isn't in pot

[naive furnace]

it is

[thin mantle]

No it's not

[naive furnace]

its a mod dino

[thin mantle]

Then it's not in POTs roster

[dusky surge]

okay that doesnt at all disprove his statement

[thin mantle]

Also we're talking about TI, not POT

They're balanced VERY differently

[dusky surge]

(PoT is balanced much worse, that's what's very different about it)

[thin mantle]

True, but their systems of balancing are also very different....regardless pot's balance is embarrassing by comparison

[naive furnace]

i dont really like pot either but its an example of if there were more aquatic capable dinos deino wouldnt be so one sided

[thin mantle]

It's combat style makes it a necessity that deino's matchups are onesided, it has no depth to it's attacks

You facetank or die

[tall bronze]

Blegh

Deino being a master of timing, both for lunging and biting, is all I require

And smaller Deino

[dusky surge]

no

[tall bronze]

pls

[thin mantle]

pls

[dusky surge]

bigger gator = cooler gator

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/jojo-anime-jojos-bizarre-adventure-kars-universe-gif-16862992

[tall bronze]

Bigger gator = stinky gator

[thin mantle]

Deino is so innately cringe to me that I could never think of coolness being a justification when it's in the conversation

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

Smaller deino = deino but less interesting

[bright oasis]

deino is cool as is

[thin mantle]

Smaller deino = deino with more contentious matchups

[tall bronze]

It irks me personally partially due to my hatred for exaggerated features being the source of what makes it scary honestly. Like LET'S MAKE IT HAVE M O R E TEETH for a movie monster. Blegh

[dusky surge]

I'd rather not have a deino that gets bodied by bary most of the time, is an opportunist that can't attack a good portion of over 50% of the roster, all while being entirely waterlocked, while there exists other aquatics that are both larger and more land capable than it

[thin mantle]

4 ton deino gets bodied by barry?

[dusky surge]

4 ton deino gets bodied by sucho and bary would just torment the young ones so easily

Hell, even beipi would have a field-day obliterating these things

[tawny copper]

nasty

[thin mantle]

I have no clue what a 1.5 ton bary would even DO to a 4 ton deino let alone torment it

[dusky surge]

It's all the difficulty of growing an apex with constant predators and animals that can and will beat your ass and having the land locked off to you, with the added bonus that you get less reward

[thin mantle]

If lunge can be addressed deino would be fine as it is

The only real reason to adjust it's size is so allos and albertos aren't getting deleted

I'm not a fan of players having their dinos randomly deleted as is but still

[tall bronze]

The ONLY thing that'd make me okay with our fat fat fatty fat fat gator is if it basically grew like how Alberto was described

Lots o lil ones, very few make it to adult

[dusky surge]

I truly believe 4 ton deino would be woefully unviable, especially considering it'd get MELTED as a juvi most of the time, making deino "rare" like you wanted, except it's a midtier that's as rare as an apex (if not rarer because no one wants to play the reptilian punching bag)

[thin mantle]

Wouldn't that juvi argument also apply to current deino?

And can't it also just be addressed by adjusting growth over time so it isn't as helpless?

We can avoid all of this by making lunge integrate well tho....

[dusky surge]

Current deino's juvis are partially carried by their immediate size at birth, which gives them a number of advantages. Halfing the size of all the juvis would make them far more vulnerable

To the point that beipis can kick their ass

[tall bronze]

You mean you don't like stuff being awful until they're essentially fully grown and having little to no uniqueness during their growth?

[thin mantle]

It's almost like I don't

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

Deino is like, the only animal that has growth that actually is one of the most dynamic

[thin mantle]

You wouldn't even have to halve their starting size....spawn sizes are arbitrary

[tall bronze]

Well what I'd we just kept the scaling similar to now. It just stops at around 4 tons, keeps the bite and speed, etc.

So a Juvie Deino now is the same as a Juvie Deino shrunken. Because just the max size is reduced

[dusky surge]

I just don't like the idea, it means that deino loses every engagement the moment it has to face a mid-tier or up

[thin mantle]

Deino basically doesn't have engagements with lungeable targets so I'm totally fine with this

[tall bronze]

Lunging stuff isn't even that fun really

[thin mantle]

You rmb and the target dies if it's small enough

[dusky surge]

Why would anyone want to play an opportunistic predator that can't even hunt most of the roster

[tall bronze]

I mean you could use that argument for a lot of stuff

[dusky surge]

It has to wait for its food to come to it, but not only that, it only has a small handful of selections of actual prey

[thin mantle]

All you're asking is why wouldn't anyone ever want to play sub deino...which for me I absolutely would

[dusky surge]

Not really, no, because no other predator fully relies on the prey to come to it

[thin mantle]

But its a guarantee that prey will come to it because of drinking timers

[dusky surge]

No it isn't

[tall bronze]

What if Deino just goes to where prey is currently migrating combined with the fact that it's been said there will be more incentives to go close to water

[dusky surge]

They can drink from anywhere, your spot is a spec in the available drinking areas

[naive furnace]

yes that if the player chooses to go to it and gets bodied then that is on the player

[thin mantle]

That's where knowledge of the map and migration comes in

[tall bronze]

And Kissen comments

[thin mantle]

Also crossings will be mandatory eventually

[tall bronze]

Maybe on Gateway

[thin mantle]

Like....this seems so clean cut

[dusky surge]

And you can't deal with most of the animals that cross

Because you're the perfect weight to not be able to do that

[tall bronze]

Okay hear me out

[thin mantle]

If any carnos, tenos, ceratos, all small tiers....come to cross you get to kill them for free

Any and all high juvis to subs are also on the menu

[tall bronze]

Deino can grab larger stuff AND stay smaller

If they're swimming. I'm sure there's a way to lower just the grab threshold of something and keep their weight the same as to not screw with health

[dusky surge]

Tenos and ceras are both extremely capable swimmers and very difficult to drown unless very well done

Carnos are free, but they're carnos

[tall bronze]

Teno has high oxygen?

[thin mantle]

Maybe lunge will actually require skill and coordination :O

[dusky surge]

Always has

[tall bronze]

Why....

[dusky surge]

It's basically almost a semi-aquatic

[tall bronze]

If it doesn't dive why the frickity frack does it have high O2 for no actual reason

[dusky surge]

It loves the water, has a great swimspeed (the best of any land animal on the roster atm) and can swim for EXTREMELY long durations

[thin mantle]

It probably will at some point but for now it's quite strange

[tall bronze]

Well, regardless of it's high oxygen, couldn't Deino still just bite em when they swim?

[dusky surge]

Carnos however generally can't do jack to escape a deino and will drown, even if they do escape the jaws, their slow swimspeed and high stam drain in water will likely kill them

[thin mantle]

Yes....or bodyblock

[tall bronze]

I still say if Deino were to get shrunk, have the elder be the current dino so both parties are happy.

If it's hard to achieve, THEN it'd actually seem cool

[thin mantle]

I honestly don't care how big deino is if lunge can be reasonably avoided

[tall bronze]

Lunge in general needs some uh

[thin mantle]

Aside from map locations existing that just negate deino's existence

[thin mantle]

Engagement?

[tall bronze]

Yeah

And I am saying this as the Deino as well

I grab something and sit there

Just waiting for it to die

[thin mantle]

It's why I don't play deino....my entire gameplay is deleting the progress of other players with no effort or resistance

it feels...bad

[tall bronze]

It's like using the Scorch Shot in TF2. You're REALLY effective at the cost of nothing.

You feel wrong doing it

[thin mantle]

Basically

[naive furnace]

add maybe a tuf of war system to it xD

tug*

[thin mantle]

Literally not possible unless it's just buck, which is pathetically awful

unless you add guitar hero to the game

[dusky surge]

Why would it not be possible tho

[thin mantle]

What's the engagement from both sides

I've never heard an explanation of how that works outside of a stat comparison

[dusky surge]

You could absolutely do it that both parties attempt to move backwards and it's a stam battle, for instance, or even have it that if the party on the receiving end makes a move that catches the deino off-guard it can break free

[thin mantle]

Stam battle is quite literally a stat comparison, also how would this apply to any animal that deino can lunge deino is MASSIVE

[dusky surge]

I'd only have it happen with animals above the 2 ton mark

[thin mantle]

Then it doesn't address the issue

[naive furnace]

basically you would have a set amount of buttons like say a s d f a counters s d counters f if you match nothing happens and whoever presses the counter wins like a bar in the tug of war

[thin mantle]

Because deino's mechanical interaction with everything is awful

[dusky surge]

But

In your 4 ton deino suggestion, it STILL does what I suggested, but without the tug of war

[thin mantle]

Yes.....and like I said that suggestion PALES in comparison to making lunge better or just removing it

mitigating a problem doesn't fix the problem

[naive furnace]

i mean yea a basic battle of forward and backwards could work if u hold forward to long you loose stamina and vice versa kinda like when your playing ufc and you get someone in a submission u got to stamina battle

[dusky surge]

Some animals will just instantly die to other animals without seeing it coming, why is deino evil for this thing all the animals can do

[thin mantle]

Because all animals are required to get within striking distance of deino every 30-40 minutes, deino cannot be percieved unless the deino makes a massive mistake, and no lunge points are any more likely than others unless the spot on the map you're at is entirely barren or the water is too shallow for them to even attack you, which due to migrations is going to become less viable as a tactic, and the only other animals I can think of that would possibly oneshot you without you seeing it coming are large terrestrial predators that hide in ideal ambush points, those points can both be avoided and you can see the predator in them before they're already on top of you, ripples in the water don't address this as it only effects the chances of deino's who mess up because they're insanely bad, you have to TRY to produce ripples, and this will become even more prevalent with how gateways bodies of water have been described as deeper than spiros

[keen plover]

Technically dryo gets insta killed by a carno charge, yet you can avoid it by simply being aware. You can't detect a deino

[dawn falcon]

The only way to improve the gameplay with Deino is by adding features that blow out its cover

If a Deino rests for a bit, perhaps it leaves a “bed” of foliage, or a splotch in the mud

[keen plover]

Yeah

[dawn falcon]

Perhaps increasing the “ripples” to where you actually have to slow hippo walk towards your prey, etc.

[dusky surge]

Could make it that speed and mass directly correlate to how much disruption to the water you generate

Almost like a cone of disruption, where it starts from the head of the deino and expands outwards behind it, growing in angle and length the faster and larger the deino is

[regal goblet]

@alpine plover for your Pachy suggestion, me and my friend had the same issues. We've found out though that if you run up to a raptor ( this only works on a raptor as far as we know, and you have to be running to do it. It cannot be a stationary head butt. ) and hit it on the back thigh so ig the butt, youll almost always get a leg break. I do agree though with what you said, if you hit directly on the leg, I expect to break the leg not the body.

[keen plover]

Water resistance is honestly fine? Would almost entirely stop stego players from deino fishing, while still allowing stegos to destroy deinos on land

[obtuse ocean]

Why is this still a discussion? Some fights you just need to avoid, deinos will have tons of stuff in the future to hunt and kill its not gonna have the luxery to go after evrything it want. Stegos gonna keep far away from water sides when spino/cherius etc comes.

[keen plover]

Stego will more than likely dominate cheirus

Spino is an odd one

[obtuse ocean]

I can tell you right now, that stego gonna get dominated hard vs cherius. Its gonna go toe to toe vs spino, and spino will dominate deino by ease.

[thin mantle]

Why would cheirus dominate stego?

[keen plover]

Cheirus is smaller than deino and will rely on arm attacks. No way is that touching the damage of stego.

[thin mantle]

Cheirus also has water to retreat to...

And will probably be faster than stego regardless, unless it's made incredibly tanky...but in that case it'd be slower

We can't have any apexes just demolishing other apexes, they don't get the luxury of having creative ways of evading eachother they WILL interact combatively

The only ones that do have the water or the air

[obtuse ocean]

You talking in game or real ?

[obtuse ocean]

The devs have already said, apexes fights wont be fair. Some will dominate others

[dusky surge]

Why would spino dominate stego? Either stego can easily run away or beat it down (more likely the former)

[obtuse ocean]

Oh it will easy get away, but if its stupid its gonna fight it.

[thin mantle]

Oh well then they should rethink that because that's braindead af

All apexes should be viable against eachother tbh

[obtuse ocean]

No its called balance, if everything could fight everything that would be bad balance. Some fights you wanne avoid.

[thin mantle]

tbf all animals SHOULD be viable but it goes worth saying

[keen plover]

You honestly think cheirus will be slower than 26km / have a worse trot than stego?

[thin mantle]

Oh that's not what it sounds like when you say "it'll dominate X", that's implicative of both power and speed, X being able to overpower Y is more apt

[obtuse ocean]

lol no, rex prob not gonna catch anything. But whatever it bites, its gonna hurt.

[thin mantle]

No? That's exactly what I'm saying tho?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you

[obtuse ocean]

Yea my point is that rex prob gonna dominate lets say giga. But im guessing giga gonna have the luxery to choose if its wanne go for it or not.

[dusky surge]

rex literally trots faster than a human sprints.

For reference, stego barely sprints faster than a human. Stego is going to have to be able to beat down a rex

[thin mantle]

Oh then yeah we're on the same page on that

[keen plover]

Tbf, it would need to the moment rex had a better trot than stego. Nevermind it being faster than a human

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, rex prob gonna need to take whatever fights comes to it. It cant escape much

[dusky surge]

what, no

rex is remarkably quick in EVRIMA from what I've seen

[keen plover]

If rex sees a stego in the plains and had a better trot, it would win

[dusky surge]

its trot alone is insanely fast

[keen plover]

That's assuming rex is stronger

Since stego can't hide its tracks

[obtuse ocean]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/664914260648001555/976623260747833394/Spinosaurus_Concept.jpg

ingame cherius is huge

[keen plover]

Concept

[obtuse ocean]

Yea but so far they are a good point of what they want

[thin mantle]

Plus stego has insane damage that'll likely only get bigger

[keen plover]

That's also assuming that matters to stego

Since stego could in theory beat them all

[dusky surge]

i fully believe that the concept of any animal "easily destroying" another animal, no questions asked is ridiculous. No, this doesn't mean I think every animal should be able to 50/50 every other animal, it does mean I think every animal should have either a power advantage or some other unique thing to either make the opponent stop chasing, or get out of the chase

[keen plover]

Also concept showed allo hunting para

[thin mantle]

Concept also showed an allo sized megalania bodyslamming a teno

[obtuse ocean]

You need power diffrences, best balance they had in legacy. People couldt just play 5 allos, and be top on the food change unless they had the skill for it.

[dusky surge]

what?

i dont understand at all what you just said

[keen plover]

tbf legacy had busted stats

[thin mantle]

The implication that legacy had a skill ceiling a few inches higher than it's floor is hilarious to me

[keen plover]

Literally alt turn and bite

No skill expression

[thin mantle]

Sit on leg and nom

[obtuse ocean]

better now , one tap and win : D

[keen plover]

Not even 1 tap and that's only omni

Which needs to be fixed

[obtuse ocean]

deino : P

[thin mantle]

If you're referring to omni....that's just as embarrassing if not more

[dusky surge]

Legacy skill expression

Can you crouch?
Can you crouch and then press shift?
Can you do that every fight you're in?
Are you capable of chasing a tail?

You're the top 1% of legacy players

[keen plover]

That's unofficials. Official legacy was even easier

Alt turn

Win as rex

bone break trike and alt turn on it

[obtuse ocean]

alt turn was stupid, tried it one time.

[keen plover]

Alt turn was better than no alt though

[dusky surge]

The fact that turning in place entirely broke the game's balance is a hysterical portrait of how terrible the skill expression actually was. A QoL feature that should've been in from the beginning forced "skilled" players to entirely forget how they fought, since it relied on a clunky awful movement system

It also really showed off how truly bad Legacy actually was

[keen plover]

At the very least with alt turn, I didn't have to worry about a creature tail riding me to death

[obtuse ocean]

Nah best balance dino game ive played, if you compared it to others. Pot or bob

[dusky surge]

The fact that most fights were completely unwinnable once alt-turn was in showed how shallow and legit awful the combat was

[dusky surge]

Balanced doesn't mean either remotely well designed or fun

Legacy's combat is either a yawnfest or a hair-pulling frustration

The fact ANYONE finds joy in it is bizarre