balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

You know, like how you do with any other attack for playables.

All it means is that there is now an actual counter, and thus risk for the ptera to mess about like that. As there should be.

[bronze crow]

Mechanic just for carnos? Could be fair enough, shouldnt be a thing for Utah really since it can just jump and cancel the pteras flight if it hits it

[golden coral]

Why just for carnos? No, for all terrestials really.

And yes, the ones that can jump does not need it, but for those that can not, which is a good deal of the roster, then what.

[bronze crow]

Maybe for like carnos, and in the future ceratos and allos and all and maybe stegos can just swipe it out of the air

[golden coral]

So yes, a general mechanic that allows a terrestial to "look/reach up" and attack would probably be a good idea.

[golden coral]

Generally. I'd also count rex and the others, because you know someone will try it, right. Even if it takes them hours, someone will be determined to peck a rex to death. And even if they can't do that due to rex healing, the pain noise, and general bother, is still a thing.

I don't see much loss in adding a mechanic or ability that adds to the engagement and the risk, and allows both sides to try and predict the others movement and counter it.

[hollow canyon]

if Ptera can't find and follow Carno in the forest that is indeed a skill issue

on the side of Pteranodon that is

cause a good Pteranodon can absolutely stay on someone in the woods and keep on attacking them

[bronze crow]

Being hunted by a pteranodon as a carno in the first place is the skill issue lol

[hollow canyon]

how is it a skill issue?

It's literally not something that the Carno decides on, it's all down to what Pteranodon does. If it decides to attack a Carno then the Carno is hunted, if it doesn't then the Carno doesn't get hunted. It really doesn't get more simple than that.

This whole encounter just like pretty much every encounter of Pteranodon with anything and everything is down to the skill of Pteranodon - if Ptera is bad it dies, you just crouch then get up as it flies above you it faceslaps into your flank, knocking itself down and dies. If it's good enough it won't care whether you run into the woods, crouch or do any other gymnastics.

[winter iris]

I was thinking: is there a reason for which teno not only is the strongest land playable (not counting stego), so it has very powerful attacks, but it also deals a lot of bleeding at the same time? Am I missing something ? I really can’t understand why a single playable has got almost every skill except high speed, but it’s not slow anyway

[hollow canyon]

its bleed was added to its kick when it was a relatively weak attack and overall much worse than the tailslam, it then got its damage buffed without any nerf to its bleed and here we are.

[hollow canyon]

It's the typical thing for Evrima where one animal gets buffed and buffed or nerfed and nerfed and then ends up broken in one way or another.

Tenonto should lose the bleed on its kick, Carno should have a reduced bleed on its bite

kick dealing a lot of bleed is just bizarre

I understand why it was added but it really doesn't make sense with the current state of Tenonto

[thin mantle]

I guess I’d suggest to go into more detail why versatility isn’t for teno is problematic, the bleed on kick can be rebalanced, I think the main bleed dealing should be claw anyway, it’s just the strongest non apex by default because Carno is a terrible matchup for it, carnos bleed nerf is definitely playing a part into that but that’s an issue with Carno, balancing in the game is done incredibly poorly, lots of changes will take place at once instead of gradual changes over time to see how they work in the multiplayer sandbox….it’s frustrating and often leaves us with animals being broken for months at a time

I am confused with the versatility complaint tho, loads of animals have or are going to have the level of versatility teno has

[tall bronze]

Yeah I dislike that balancing tends to be

Thing is changed
"Great! Now this should be better the-"
Other thing is changed as well
"NOOOOOOO IT WAS SO CLOSE TO BEING PERFECT"

Like if one thing is too weak against another, it shouldn't be both buffing the first thing and nerfing the second thing. If that makes sense 😛

[neon willow]

I've seen a video of a friend, on carno, getting pecked to death by a ptera. The friend did, in fact, both run to bushes/trees in South, but also into the jungle for about half the encounter, and the ptera had no issues following him through the trees. So it's not simply a skill issue for the carno-- you can do exactly what you suggest is the counter and still get pecked to death

[stark spear]

if you encounter a good ptera which i did btw because this guy was able to do circles really tight and repeatedly peck me over and over out ofg my reach. Running away into trees does not work. Its not a skill issue. And in what other situation does a big animal have to run from a far smaller because they have defense mechanism against them. Please, give me oine example

@bronze crow

[tall bronze]

Maybe if Ptera actually collided with branches :)

[thin mantle]

I just don’t get why people take issue with ptera being combatively incompetent….it’s the only playable that has no risk of combat whilst also not needing to interact with other players to survive, it’s a baby killing scavenger it’s supposed to suck at fighting…

“Wow I can’t believe you’d nerf the weakest animal in game so that it can’t fight anything”
Yes….yes I would….keep it relegated to fresh spawns nest raids fishing and corpses

If combat is what you want why are you playing the kite made of tissue paper

[keen plover]

Because PVP

They want all playables to be pvp capable

[thin mantle]

Go fight a hypsi troodon homalo or juvis

[keen plover]

PVP = fun. No pvp and the playable is 'bad'

[thin mantle]

Or go fight other pteras, your most interesting matchup

[keen plover]

I think it's stupid that ptera can even hurt a carno

[thin mantle]

Same

[keen plover]

It's like utahs hurting a bronto

At a certain size, you should just avoid things

There is no 'balance' to a ptera bringing down a carno. It's just goofy

[tall bronze]

I always liked the idea of a S I M I L A R system like legacy's weight-damage thing.

Not sure how exactly it'd be done.

But like a juvie Utah for example would essentially do nothing to an adult Deino. Claws too teeny.

[thin mantle]

It’s weird that a fresh spawn Utah even does damage to something like a teno let alone a deino

[tall bronze]

Juvie Utah: pokes adult Deino's massive scales

Deino: EUUUUUNNNGGGSSSSSSSSSH

[thin mantle]

Deino: Rusty Metal Noises

[tall bronze]

Maybe like.....

There could be a pseudo-weight system based on damage types and size or somethin'

I dunno

[hollow canyon]

I've got an example - Legacy T.rex runs from Utahs on no alt turn servers because otherwise they just bite its tail until it dies

[thin mantle]

Yes pls

[slim dragon]

@thin mantle the reason so many people downvoted the suggestion above yours he because he said ptera should crash when pecking a carno, which is a stupid solution. I agree with allowing dinos to look up and attack pteras back though.

[thin mantle]

Logistically it makes sense that a ptera pecking basically anything more solid than itself would tip it right into the ground, but yeah I wouldn't want that, I'd either want playables to have upward attacks, or ptera simply not dealing damage to anything bigger than say...a utah

[tight cove]

I cant believe carnos are dying to ptera players lol, I understand a good ptera player can follow you into the woods but he will eventually run out of stam or crash, also i find hugging a large rock or tree is very effective.

would you consider yourself a good ptera player? id love to test this

lol 😂

✅

[hollow canyon]

I don't play Pteranodon myself but I have seen people that were really goddamn good at it - having said that, they are rare.

They are about as much of a threat/nuisance as Utahs to apexes in legacy on no alt turn.

I didn't necessarily consider those a threat either but a really goddamn good one could probably kill me if it was persistent enough.

In general, Pteranodon doesn't need a nerf, Carno and Stego need some way to be able to attack upwards. Honestly all the animals should be able to do that and it's kind of dumb that they can't.

[dry glen]

Should Stego even be taking damage from its plates in the first place?? Especially to something so comparatively small??

[hollow canyon]

That's the thing with Pteranodon - it technically doesn't hit any particular body part it actually typically just pecks the air above its target and those hits register because Evrima hitboxes go brrrr

[hollow canyon]

@hasty coyote There's an issue with your proposed solution - Carno does NOT have a bite socket anywhere close to that

not to mention Pteras dont really peck Carnos over heads

they peck the area above their torso

[hasty coyote]

A: If carno's bite hitbox is lower than its hurtbox, then thats an issue with carno and that should honestly be fixed.
B: Alt bites exist, so you can catch them with that. And if they constanly just bite your tail, then they are dealing like 2 damage a bite. If someone has the patience to bite a carno nearly 1000 times and the skill to not make a single mistake that whole time, then they honestly deserve the kill.

[hollow canyon]

It's A

and no, it's not how it works again - Pteranodon needs to peck the area ABOVE the torso

the alt bite can't hit it there

it's just idk, you'd have to run into a good Pteranodon and see how it plays out

or even see it attack someone

to understand how this encounter plays out

[thin mantle]

I don’t think a kill is deserved simply because it takes long, the engagement is still awful

[hollow canyon]

^^^

That too even though it's not really relevant and isn't the case here

but yea no, you don't deserve a kill because you pressed lmb 1000 times on a target that couldn't fight back

[thin mantle]

Like the fact that ptera physically has the agency to kill a Carno is WAY more good faith then it needs

Why this matchup or topic is even debatable is funny in and of itself

[hollow canyon]

That too, idk probably because there are so few animals on the roster that Pteranodon has to be able to kill something to feel like it's worth playing

but honestly... it is a spectator cam

[thin mantle]

But the fact that that animal is Carno

[hollow canyon]

idk what people expect from the animal but if you want to kill other animals - Pteranodon probably isn't the best pick for you

[hollow canyon]

ikr although Stegosaurus is also on the menu

these are the two animals that have no way of dealing with it

[thin mantle]

S tier meme right there

[hollow canyon]

admittedly there will be more of them as the roster gets larger, either way it needs some fixes

[thin mantle]

I kinda appreciate the idea of some animals just not being able to harm others reasonably due to a massive size difference or improper weaponry, not simply like legacies weight system but I genuinely don’t think a ptera should even deal damage to a Carno, because the alternative is adding another mechanic so that Carno-like animals can deal specifically with ptera….when the matchup is already ridiculous and unnecessary

It’s not the end all, I could probably think of something better with time but it’s better than….this

Like people will look at pteras beak and see a spear….but that spear is made of cardboard….

[hasty coyote]

Sorry had to do some stuff, but I'd consider that part of A again, if carno's hitboxes can't even reach the top of itself, than thats an issue. Plus, even if ptera could just peck above carno, its hurtbox would also be lowered enough to be even with its hitbox.

Also with the stego issue, just make the plates not part of its hurtbox. If they arent supposed to really take any damage, then why have them as part of the hurtbox? That way ptera would just crash into stego if it tries to bite its back or its in stego's hitbox range.

[thin mantle]

Or just make ptera deal no damage to those Dino’s

At adult stage ofc

[hollow canyon]

it's not "really" an issue - how do you want Carno's jaws to extend to the back of its head?

[hasty coyote]

there are likely other solutions, depending on how the game has its hitboxes and hurtboxes set up, but I just wanted to throw out a more simple idea rather than creating a whole new mechanic specifically for ptera

[hollow canyon]

It's not just for Pteranodon though

[thin mantle]

Flashbacks to xenomorph Carno

[hollow canyon]

we should absolutely be able to aim upwards with our bites

if you're a smaller animal and want to hit e.g. the abdomen of a larger animal rather than just its leg you might have to aim upwards

it's not just a countermeasure against Pteranodon

[hollow canyon]

Xenomorph Carno is a very specific case tbh I'm pretty sure most other animals also suffer of this issue it's just not that noticeable on them

[hasty coyote]

its bite can cover its head, and alt can just reach more vertically. I'm not saying make its alt bite reach to its tail, just more vertical height if it basically has none as you say it does.

[hollow canyon]

when this got fixed people started complaining about Carno's bites not landing

[hollow canyon]

the bite of Carno only covers a very small arc in front of it

it's hard to explain you'd have to see it

but this animal currently has the most precise hitbox in the game

I've tested it very closely and for a rather long time after update 5 came out

it only bites the thing that it should be biting

[thin mantle]

Oh certainly, that’s just a hitbox issue, it was prominent in Carno most of all because of the shape of the hitbox and carnos speed

[hasty coyote]

I honestly thought you could and it should be a thing, but I'm mainly talking about the "reach up" mechanic people want where you stand tall (like when carno and teno sniff)

[hollow canyon]

now the unfortunate thing about that is that the animation does not correspond to the camera position

[hollow canyon]

oh I see I mean that would be cool but it's a rather niche thing

[thin mantle]

That’d be pretty neat tbh

[hasty coyote]

probably, I'm not 100% sure how the hitboxes function in this game so I was just basing it roughly off my experience with this game and other games

[hollow canyon]

to elaborate on this - whenever you are a Carno the furthest point of your bite socket is actually below where you're looking

So for example if you want to hit something right in front of you

you should probably look slightly above it

this way you increase your chances of landing the bite

it's also why so many people complain about missing their bites on Carno

[hasty coyote]

except its likely to create a whole new issue with people biting up AND through rocks, plus the animation and coding work is a bit much to deal with a nice situations where a sky rat is actually good.

[hollow canyon]

idk about biting through rocks but tbh if you're not on a high enough rock you should absolutely be prone to getting hit

[hasty coyote]

huh... that explains a lot lol. They have a weird hitbox system lol

[hollow canyon]

this isn't a hitbox system, it's the animation not being well tied to the camera movement

this is also what caused the xenomorph jaws Carno

people that looked above their target could bite it from afar while people who were looking straight at their target were hitting it only when it was where it should be

meanwhile now you have people missing if they look right at their target

and hitting if they look above it

[thin mantle]

That’s an issue with collision most of all, that’s applicable to all attacks that exist anyway so it wouldn’t introduce that on its own, and this isn’t solely to deal with ptera as aken said, many creature can benefit from this in a verity if scenarios, tho it would be a lot of work.
And plus, I don’t care about delegitimizing pteras combat effectiveness against anything over twice its size, it shouldn’t be fighting them

[hasty coyote]

except most rocks arent high enough to escape an upright carno, personally I think the current system with rocks works fine enough. Though I'd have to see what Gateway does with rocks to truly judge good rocky combat lol

[hollow canyon]

I don't think rocks should necessarily offer that good of a cover although I think quite a lot of them are tall enough to make the animal hiding there safe from Carno

Oh I know how to explain the issue with Carno's bites

imagine having your cross-hair ABOVE the centre of your screen

[thin mantle]

Most of the Utah rocks on the map are pushed into the ground quite a bit, a few examples of the same rocks that are far above carnos height exist on the map, they just aren’t as common

[hollow canyon]

that's basically what Carno suffers of right now

[hasty coyote]

the collision and hitboxes have been jankey enough, I'd rather not go through that nightmare again with every animal

[thin mantle]

That’s apt….also….ew

[hollow canyon]

or more so - it shoots lower than you're aiming

[thin mantle]

I think that issue should just be fixed, irrespective of this mechanic it needs addressing, nothing should be able to attack through objects they can’t destroy

[hasty coyote]

its just... odd. I guess they have like a circle or cylinder tied to the bottom of its head or something.

again, I don't know how they make the hitboxes work in this game, so my idea may be completely invalid. However, its just another idea on a way to fix this issue by changing as little as possible, and can be used with other methods too.

[hasty coyote]

Yes, and it has been fixed (for the most part), but having an oddly angled hitbox like that can cause issues, its yet another attack they have to make for every dino that can't jump. Its just a lot of work when you can instead just bring ptera's hurtbox down and making hitboxes slightly more vertical.

[thin mantle]

It hasn’t been addressed really at all, you can still attack through basically anything.
Side note, ptera shouldn’t be fighting animals in a size category that can’t jump, just make their damage null to those animals and we’re fine

Plus I don’t like the idea of not adding a mechanic because it could be problematic, because the solution to that is to not make it horribly broken

[hasty coyote]

I havent been in many situations where they can attack through walls so it is prob still a thing, but I thought I heard something about them fixing that during U3-U4.
Also I guess that works, and would help with things like juvie utah, but then you would have to code exceptions for stuff like troo.

[thin mantle]

Well, you wouldn’t because of venom, it’s entirely possible to not deal a single point of damage and kill a larger target if venom is fatal. Plus Troodon prolly won’t be hitting outside the ballpark of teno sized animals and maybe slightly larger, so it’d still work for it

[tall bronze]

They actually mentioned fixing creatures biting through stuff in one of the devblogs 😮

[thin mantle]

Still waiting on that implementation

[tall bronze]

Might be U6, I think it was the most recent one 😮

Due to there being more buildings now

[thin mantle]

Hopefully that also applies to rocks and trees

[errant plinth]

a single damage block to solve the most annoying aspect about ptera lol, does it really not have a hitbox in its head besides for biting and collision?

[keen plover]

It would take ages for them to implement that, while it would be relatively simple for them to just make it where ptera doesn't do damage to large things or lower its hitbox

So I agree on that point

[neon willow]

I think the issue is ptera does have a head hitbox, BUT it doesn't overlap with it's beak. So if it pecks downward, its head and body hitbox are out of range of incoming attacks, but it's outgoing attacks are in range of its target's hitbox

[dusky surge]

@digital surge Deinosuchus' combat capability is almost entirely defensive on land, the best way to avoid it is to not approach. If deino didn't have that, it'd be doomed against larger more pressing threats

[azure crescent]

Entirely on you if you get hit by a deino alt bite

[digital surge]

To be fair I do not understand what a croc is doing on land anyways... but nontheless I do not think their range should go upwards.

[azure crescent]

I don’t see how being on land is a balance issue

Nor it going slightly upwards

It’s entirely avoidable

[golden coral]

Why are you jumping over the deino in the first place?

[digital surge]

if it was slightly I wouldn't be bothered but the range is huge upwards again just my opinion let me have it please ^^

[azure crescent]

I’m letting you have it, i just don’t see the issue

[small ether]

The issue is that Deino’s hitbox is completely unbalanced and ridiculous so much so that I would consider it a gamebreaking bug, one that would make new and old players quit the game. Whether deinos eat fish their whole damn life and never encounter another player or not, it should STILL be fixed by the devs for the sake of a balanced game. Also if deino is “entirely avoidable” then why is it even in the game. Its job is to ambush players… who are on land… There are so many interactions I’ve seen with deinos and if that player experience gets ruined by an absolutely broken hitbox, then that player is just going to quit and remember this game as broken. I’ve seen it happen firsthand. I’d say that needs to be fixed asap. You shouldn’t have to “avoid” bugs. Might as well avoid the entire game

[azure crescent]

I'm not saying deino itself is unavoidable, just its alt attack.

I've had no issues with the alt attack hitbox so far, so i'm speaking based off thast

[small ether]

Oh really? I didn’t know you were the only person playing The Isle and all these other players are your alt accounts running simultaneously. Point is, your experience doesn’t define everyone’s experience. Try listening to Yummi’s feedback and others and thinking “Hmm why would she be saying this? Could it be possible that its alt attack isn’t avoidable in certain situations?”

And even if it is avoidable, will players just avoid fighting deinos since it’s the biggest apex in the game and it’ll just one shot all of you. I mean it would be silly to fight it.
Nope. Players will definitely fight deinos, adults or babies, OR fight something ELSE like a carno or herbivore herd, WHILE deinos are surrounding them trying to pick the utahs (for example) off. It’s been done to me.
Why would utahs or carnos or stegos be fighting adult or baby deinos? Because If they’re skilled enough, they get that reward of adrenaline and success for surviving against an apex that they shouldn’t have survived against, all because they’re skilled enough. That’s very important to this game and gives most of the genuine fun. Now let’s say a utah is skilled enough to kill baby deinos and not die, it starts running away, maybe even jump over a deino’s head to mock him, then snatch, you’re dead from 2 body lengths away. So you say “this isn’t worth it” and uninstall.

On the topic of its avoidable alt attack, I’ve been in situations and seen some where the only option is to jump over a deino to escape it, and it works. If I had died to an outrageous hitbox, then I’d just uninstall.

Anyways.. throwing out all these points on why deino’s hitbox should be fixed…
It should be fixed simply for the fact that it’s broken. So I don’t know why all these people disagreed with Yummii

[small ether]

btw... evidently it's not entirely on the player if they get bitten - if the hitbox is >1 * its range

[frail bobcat]

Jeez, he said its his personal experience

[golden coral]

First off, has it occurred to you that maybe Yummii is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with the hitbox? Maybe it was lag or something else that was the issue. A deino being able to bite upwards is not an issue, in fact, all critters should be able to look and bite upwards. See earlier discussion on ptera. Second, if people still want to fight something they should not, they can, but that's on them doing it wrong. This is not a fighting game, it's a survival game, or so we've been told. (Not sure why you bring up baby deinos as something to fight anyway, not like it takes any great skill to fight those at the very least).

If you end up in a situation where you need to jump over a deino, then well, you may have miscalculated. No different from having to run too close to a stego to escape, or anything else really for that matter. There is no issue with the hitbox from what I can tell, just be aware that deino can hit slightly upwards and act accordingly. If you find yourself in a situation where you can not avoid the attack, I'd say you have messed up, since there are at the very least options in that engagement. And lastly, apply the "experience" argument equally if you're going to use it.

And if you're jumping over a deino, then you're not "body lengths away" from it, you're right above it.

[frail bobcat]

If you jump from a cliff tho

[small ether]

It's very possible that Yummi and other players are wrong about a hitbox, or it was lag (and networking does definitely affect hitboxes). But does that mean people should dismiss feedback about a bug? Definitely not. We need all the feedback we can get about fixing bugs whether it might exist or not, so the devs will look at the feedback and see "Okay, it's possible deino's hitbox is glitched. Testers, get on it". This feedback is ALL about fixing a broken hitbox, so I don't understand why people would vote against fixing a possible bug. And all your other points are null because it doesn't matter what the heck a player does in this game, if a bug affects gameplay then it needs to be fixed regardless of anyway the player chooses to play this game. "Survival" or "fighting" game, people are going to play this game how they want and it's evident, and examples are in what I said earlier. I can have a lot more to say if you wanna DM me; because I don't feel like spamming this chat lol

And yeah exactly Dinohappen, or jump off a rock

[golden coral]

Like, standing on a rock and jumping above the deino at the base of it? I guess, if the deino can reach you all the way up from that jump, but then I'd like to see that happen in the first place.

[golden coral]

If it's an actual bug, this is not where to report it, it's to do so in a proper bug report.

And you're the one that gave a whole bunch of arguments, I just responded to them.

[frail bobcat]

It was sarcastic. There is nothing wrong with the deino hitbox

[small ether]

Does that warrant thumbs down?

I can talk about this all day if you wanna

[golden coral]

It is a balance feedback, it will be treated like that I guess.

In this case, seeing as most others do not experience a balance issue, then yes, it gets a thumbs down.

[small ether]

Also rocks at NW are a good example

[golden coral]

Like I said, if it's an actual bug, then bug report. Because then it's not a balance issue. And it's not for us to decide if it is a bug or not, but we can however argue on if this is an issue or not.

[small ether]

That's how bugs can be, sometimes it's hard to replicate them. Purpose of testing. And just because it doesn't happen 100% of the time, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed

[golden coral]

So report it as a bug if that's what you see it as. Nothing more to discuss there. But that's not relevant here then. Same as why balancing omni before it's pounce was fixed wasn't ideal, as we now know.

[small ether]

it's possible it's not a bug. Maybe a line in the code made the range a bit farther than it should, or it's the networking code, # of players in area, many things could cause this

[golden coral]

But it's also apparent, or so it seems, that the people responding to it have not experienced any issues. So I'm not sure what you want in response, it was posted as an issue, and people disagree with it being an issue.

Or maybe the range is fine, for all we know.

Just like how stegos can hit under their tail, even if there's no physical tail there, because they need to be able to remove anklebiters. Maybe deino does have a bit of an extra reach up so it can well, reach up for those things above it, since it is low to the ground otherwise. I could see this being useful when taller critters are added, or even for a carno, if you want to hit something more than just it's leg.

[frail bobcat]

The bite buff was pretty unnecessary

[small ether]

If people are disagreeing with it being an issue because it doesn't happen to them, then they need to reconsider like I said earlier. Because as it looks now, people are disagreeing that it shouldn't be tweaked IF the range is farther than what is reasonable... and that is what I don't understand

[golden coral]

@small etherBut if you want it tested, I'll grab a friend of mine who plays deino a lot, and try it out with him when he has time. I'll just go omni and jump back and forth, across in all ways, while he uses alt to try and catch me, and we'll see how it goes and if we find it reasonable or not.

More likely that they disagree because they think the range is fine.

[golden coral]

Bite buff?

[frail bobcat]

Of omni, 55 to 65

[golden coral]

Oh, that. I was mostly talking about it's pounce and all the things related to that. And I don't know, maybe it wasn't needed, but I don't think it was terrible either. At least not compared to all the other balance issues with omni.

@frail bobcatSorry, just got a bit confused! :D

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[small ether]

Go ahead if you want, I don't recommend it if both of you don't have testing experience. It requires a lot of manipulating the code the right way and doing weird things under a lot of conditions. It's not black and white. "Okay friend, lemme jump over your head and you try to bite me. Oh Im alive, no bug". It's may be or may not be simple to replicate. Also just FYI I've had deino's hitbox range kill me and friends before when it definitely shouldn't have reached us, so it's not just Yummii

[frail bobcat]

Pounce just needs a animation for its headpounces, so that it moves to the flanks and I am happy. Plus head pounces to take one stamina tick without doing damage

[small ether]

Also if you wanna discuss it more dm me and Ill msg you later today

[golden coral]

We've tested things before, it's not too strange. And if it's an actual bug, then yeah, that might be for QA, but we can test it in general in normal gameplay settings and see if it seems to be hitting things it shouldn't or not. And I've had deaths that also made me go "wait what", but well, that could be down to lag, or any other issue, than something wrong with a hitbox, much less a bug with it.

[small ether]

I would say the likely cause is server stress, bad networking code... or deino's vertical range is slightly too high in Yummi's case, I didn't get the specifics

[golden coral]

I'd say it needs a good few more things. Increased punishment on miss, inability to pounce anywhere aside from the flanks/spots and still land (so no more magnetic pounce, aim correctly or miss). Could either be knock down or just stun on misaim, like current miss. Might need to readjust bleed a bit, but more likely if the pounce is properly hard to land, it would be enough. And oh yeah, bucking needs to be a proper counter and all that, but that's a bucking issue more so than pounce or omni.

[golden coral]

Possibly, and if it's the former, then there's not much to do but wait for performance and all that. But then it's not a bug at least.

[small ether]

I say that based on my experience with deinos hitbox, though thats vertical & horizontal. I dont know about Yummii's details with it vertically only

[golden coral]

As for the exact range, well, that can be argued, but I don't see an issue with deino being able to hit things above it so.

[small ether]

So I'm not sure what exactly could be causing it

[frail bobcat]

Yeah the pouncemiss needs to be longer

[golden coral]

I am in favour of all critters being able to hit stuff above, to deal with pteras and so on. Possibly quetz, if it, god forbid, gets a flying attack.

Or to reach a taller opponent in a weaker spot perhaps.

[frail bobcat]

Imagine utahs doing the same with quetz as they do with pteras, just yoinking them when they fly low

[small ether]

And because we don't know, we need people to give her feedback a thumbs up so the devs will see it. If it's in the wrong channel then an admin can just move the post

[golden coral]

I don't know, quetz is the same size as an omni, is it not? I imagine they don't neccesarily want it to land, because it can most likely spear them and possibly one shot them.

[frail bobcat]

No, because we do not know if it even is a issue

[frail bobcat]

I think neither omni nor quetz want to mess with each other

One good attack on either side and the other one is done for

[small ether]

They have testers for a reason

I hope anyways...

[azure crescent]

could it be possible that the alt attack isn’t avoidable in certain situations?

Simply staying away from deinos that are on land:

Players absolutely will try to fight deinos
Okay, that doesn’t mean they should (unless they’re like a stego)

Maybe even jump over a deino’s head to mock him,
Yeah, mocking the biggest apex in the game will never be a good idea, specially when even in the animation, the deino jumps several meters up

I agree with making the hitbox more consistent, but your points aren’t very reasonable

Like, taunting an apex????

Also i literally said it was my experience

Not that it happened to others

[azure crescent]

A bug fix should not be in balance feedback to begin with

Unless it SEVERELY ruins balance, which it doesnt

It only changed a few niche situations

[neon willow]

Yeah, in general you shouldn't be trying to taunt apexes.

And while punching up is a legitimate play style that can be a lot of fun, it does come with significant risk of dying... Which is actually probably a lot of the appeal. The satisfaction of killing apexes is largely due to the sense of accomplishment of being able to dodge and avoid their attacks, especially if you have to get in range of their attacks to land hits, as it requires more skill. I don't think that deino would be as satisfying to kill if you know you could just jump over it safely

[hasty coyote]

@fathom plaza my main issue with your suggestion is that it promotes mixpacking, which is something most people don’t like. Especially since migration is supposed to help limit it.

[small ether]

did you read my message thoroughly or skim through it?

[azure crescent]

I read all of it

[small ether]

Hm okay

[golden coral]

@sand heartThe carno is meant to be very fast though, not sure how you're thinking here? Also a 50% carno can most likely be pinned by an omni, at least with current weight scaling, so what else would it do but run? Not to mention it also needs to run from adult carnos, that can and will hunt it. And I don't know how you're thinking with a juvie utah, you're a juvie, you're small and barely visible, can get into spots most others can not, I don't think you need to juke an adult carno in the open. There are juvies that suffer far worse than omnis when it comes to survivability (or just fun in general for that matter).

[thin mantle]

An 80% Carno is a oneshot to a pounce anyway, pounce halfway, go to rock, wait for death

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Compelling gameplay

[keen plover]

Utahs already cover more distance than adult carnos. Just keep an eye on them and you'll be able to run them out of stamina. Unless they run into a forest of course.

[winter iris]

@sand heart carno is faster yes, but its acceleration is now so bad that in the first metres utah is faster, so you bite or pounce easily in a fight or juke the carno. Also, considering how strong Utah is atm, if you can’t kill a carno in this update is definitely your fault. Speed is sometimes the only mean a carno has to escape, but generally if it has been pounced it isn’t even enough.
Additionally, as someone else already told you, juvie carnos are way more vulnerable to adult utahs than the other way round: basically if an adult Utah wants to kill a juvie carno, the carno is dead 90% of the times, whilst juvie Utah has a very good chance of escaping.
Honestly the utah vs carno match up couldn’t be better for Utah than what it is now

[marsh marsh]

I dont get why utah is not nerfed already so lame

[hollow field]

carno should get theirstam usage when running/ramming imo lowered by atleast 100%, so they actually feel like a plain strider, and getting their hunger requirement lowered.

• increased walking speed

[azure crescent]

i wouldn't go as far as 100%, but something around 45-50% would be enough

running for a minute and a half as the fastest land animal in the game is more distance covered than a utah

[hasty coyote]

I’d still be worried with buffing carno’s stam too much, it would make surviving as a small runner near impossible. Pachy already has issues running after a body fracture alone, now imagine dryo having to not be hit once by something has just as much stam as it does and is faster.

Especially when we take into account future smalls who won’t be as fast or agile as dryo, yet get 1-shot by carno.

[rotund sage]

I calculated a bit around and if it's turning dark and let's say your at 80% food you will ... give or take have 12 hours of darkness means you will drain approximately 120%(around 10 per hour) so you need atleast 6 boars as a full grown carno to survive a night or keep your food lvl... and thats only for 1 carno, not to mention what happens if your low on food and/or in a group. Being a carno currently is permanently stressful and not really rewarding in my opinion, because of previously already mentioned points I want to enlarge a bit more on the Utah carno match-up in particular if a pack of Utahs fight against a pack of carnos means 10 vs 3. To make things simpler let's just say they are around da same skill lvl and have no voice communication. Depending on who engages the party should have an edge in the fight so lets just say the carnos engage with their charge and manage to kill 1 and wound one ... which does rarely happen since the church is pretty clunky and easy to dodge for a Utah. Then the utahs will pounce the carnos and from this point forward the carno gets forced into an defensive position straight up, because the bleed gets applied no matter what so you are bleeding pretty heavily and considering a perfect diet can be tough since dryos aren t played and deer are not available in sheer masses you will bleed for quite some time if you chase anyone or even charge much more so the utahs have the edge from this point on and Even though the carnos had the advantage with the charge. Some people might say go turret mode this does not always work and if you try picking utahs from others off u might hit them as well and people tend to panic especially randoms. So unless you get somehow a breather and your bleeding stops and you manage to somehow break free of the encirclement... your dead. Thanks for reading this long text... appreciate opinions and criticism against everything but grammar

[hollow canyon]

Even if Carnos go turret mode - they starve before Utahs do so you can just wait for them to die

and they also need far more food to fill up

[golden coral]

@deft hollyJust revert the carno bleed resistance nerf and it should be good.

[deft holly]

true

like literally the game is the most balanced its ever been

imo just carno is a little weak

[golden coral]

It is a bit too weak to bleed yes, so it would be nice to try it out with how it used to be, at least to see how it goes.

[hollow canyon]

idk about the most balanced it's ever been

[golden coral]

True, I'd say we're pretty far from what the balance should be, but then for now it works out I guess

[mighty tree]

Wtf is with these mf feedback people

i literally suggested a dryo kick too before and got like 30 downvotes

but when commy did it, suddenly praised and 70 upvotes

[frail bobcat]

Maybe they liked the dryo health buff

[tall bronze]

Maybe different people online at different times <:/

[neon willow]

Yeah... Feedback posts get buried pretty quickly, and not many people dig through all of the older suggestions too. Still stinks that you didn't get as much recognition for the same idea, though

[versed rune]

??? 💀

[golden coral]

Hm?

[somber sphinx]

Those were most likely referring to nerfing stegos bloodpool

[frail bobcat]

I downvoted the stego part

[slim dragon]

I knew you were a stego main

[frail bobcat]

lol

No, i am not, but stego is just a apex that needs to battle land apexes on one point.

[slim dragon]

That's what a stego main would say
jk I know stego will be in a very tough spot if it stay as is when apexes come, it surely doesn't need a nerf

[frail bobcat]

lmao

[wraith relic]

I don’s think of stego as an apex, I think of it as like how acro is in legacy where it’s not quite an apex

Can’t imagine a universe where acro doesn’t beat stego atleast 70% of the time

Maybe a bit much there

[frail bobcat]

how do you expect it to beat stego this easily?

[wraith relic]

I said a bit much more like 55%

[frail bobcat]

but how?

[wraith relic]

Thickness and height advantage and apparently speed

[frail bobcat]

height? so it can bite the armored part of the stego?

[wraith relic]

If two Alberto’s can in it’s concept than acro could probably beat stego half the time alone

[slim dragon]

concept art moment

I don't see rex killing a stego more than 50% of the time, so an acro...

[wraith relic]

The problem is that you don’t find stegos alone that much to be honest

[frail bobcat]

and the height literally wont matter. its gonna get a upwards swings

[slim dragon]

Also if acro is faster than stego it should automatically mean that stego will have the upper hand in combat

[jolly matrix]

"apex" 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure this size chart is wrong

[frail bobcat]

you know how anky is gonna a apex aswell probably

[slim dragon]

Also it's the weight that matters, not the height
Stego is 6 tons, so way above acro

[frail bobcat]

and the tail, the thagomizers are what really give it the apex spot

[golden coral]

I don't know how well concept art will translate to game, much less balance. But if acro is classed as apex, as at least one dev seems to treat it as, then there's little reason stego would also not be classed as that, especially if we get the full sized 8T or so stego.

[wraith relic]

I understand stego would have been really powerful but I don’t want it to overshadow trike, anky or shant, those three are the real herbi apexes

[slim dragon]

Well every apex has some sort of thagomizer
Trike has them on its forehead, rex has them in its mouth, spino on its hands, etc...

[frail bobcat]

how is it overshadowing them if it can defend itself from other apexes

[frail bobcat]

true

[golden coral]

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to treat them as good and bad vs different things, both on the herbi and carni side. Also don't forget cheirus!

[wraith relic]

It should still be able to defend itself but I mean those other three should have a better match up against apexes, not saying stego can’t defend but those three have better odds when it comes to combat

[azure crescent]

💀

acro should be able to kill stego, if in a duo or trio

solo absolutely not

[slim dragon]

Unless stego can run away from carnivore apexes, it shouldn't lose to them in a fight

[azure crescent]

^

[frail bobcat]

what is your issue with it?

[golden coral]

It depends on what they're up against I'd say. There's no reason to treat any of them as "much better", since well, all playables should be fun and good and all that.

[wraith relic]

The thing is stego would be in herds so it would be able to defend itself, but it should be pretty worried when it’s alone

[golden coral]

No, stego is not as herd animal. If anything, shant and trike are more so and would be in herds.

[azure crescent]

no animal should be fully dependent on herds

[azure crescent]

i prefer apex herbis to be solitary in general

[golden coral]

Shant and trike are much more suited for herding behaviour, but no apex should come in more than pairs.

[slim dragon]

Also stego is like the worst herbivore to form a herd with
When you try to defend yourself you kill your friends

[azure crescent]

maybe trike, but shant i disagree personally

[frail bobcat]

so you are balancing the viability of an apex (which should be really hard to grow btw.) around being herded up?

[golden coral]

Agreed. Just saying, if there's any apexes that would come in herds, it'd be trike and shant. Trike especially because the good old shield wall thing, which I'm sure everyone will want to do!

[azure crescent]

i like trike herds, shant is just too big imo

[slim dragon]

I see shant acting as a "big daddy" hanging around herds of smaller herbs like in its concept art

[azure crescent]

i mean a 16t animal like shant would need a LOT of food which cannot sustain a herd

[golden coral]

But I don't think even trike should come in herds because well, trike. We don't need apex level critters in groups.

[azure crescent]

yea, i'd love to see like a shant bully a sub cama

just to show its sheer power

[golden coral]

Mixpacker! No but seriously, that'd work, if there's a risk because shant just wants all the food.

[azure crescent]

i mean this is an animal whose babies are probably heavier than utahs

[frail bobcat]

so they are stegos babys, but they give more food

[wraith relic]

You just reminded me the problem I have with stego and deino that despite being the longest to grow they’re still pretty much the easiest, stego because carno doesn’t have juvi stego on its diet and deino because there’s no other smaller semi aquatic to hunt it

[azure crescent]

yea lol

i mean stuff like herrera can hunt a juvie stego, but not juvie shants

so still a pretty decent difference survivability wise

[azure crescent]

i always kill baby stegos as carno

diets do not stop me

[wraith relic]

I hope they add age specific diets to the game

[frail bobcat]

thats gonna change and I believe that adding deino was one of the best choices they could have ever made. They made "guess ill take a sip" to "will I die here". It adds so much to the atmosphere while not being there most of the times

[golden coral]

Considering a solo omni can kill stegos up to decent sizes, and do have them on diet. Compared to nothing killing a deino except another one (and then get yelled at for being a cannibal).

[azure crescent]

Regardless, balancing a playable around being fully viable only in herds is a stupid decision with stupid results

[azure crescent]

Diets are going to be organ based in U6, so theoretically everything will be in your diet as carni

Unless it's poisonous/rotten and you can't resist poison/rot

[golden coral]

And yeah, balancing around being viable in a herd or pack is an issue, we can see this with para in legacy, and troodon might have issues, depending on how they do it.

[frail bobcat]

troodon chicken hunter niche

[hasty coyote]

As long as troo can hunt ai, and similarly sized animals and scavenge, it should be fine.

[golden coral]

I guess, but it's not that fun to just hunt ai I would imagine. But we'll see, I'm just thinking the whole balanced around groups can apply to both carnis and herbis, and it's not good in either case.

[wraith relic]

To be honest almost everyone knows that the troodon player base will die after two weeks

[hasty coyote]

Exactly, but I’d rather hunt ai than nothing or be too op.

[hasty coyote]

Same happened with pachy and will happen with everything. Many people play it on release, but most then drop it. However, a good chunk stay with it still.

[somber sphinx]

Plus’s there’s also the horde discord

[tall bronze]

Pachys don't seem dead to me 😮 They seem like every other creature honestly. (Though maybe a tad lower due to Omnis being so overly good and Pachy not doing well enough)

[hasty coyote]

I never said they’re dead, just much lower than at release. Which is to be expected for all dinos.

[winter iris]

The fact is also that in U4 pachy was super strong, let’s say a bit op. Now it’s not the best playable to hunt down others.
All in all, people just like playing op playables, minimising the risk of dying and maximising the possibility to kill others , possibly without a lot of effort to grow the playable. This is Utah now , and was pachy at its release. As simple as that I think

[obtuse ocean]

Just downvoted something that had 60 upvotes and 1 downvote. So am i missing something with the mud pool to stop bleeding ? That gonna be the most boring/easiest fights without using a single skill. 2v1 we can just let the guy not go into mud and stop bleeding. While we can just go and stop bleeding one by one, and look while he bleeds to death

[keen plover]

I despise the concept of mud being more available purely for the fact that stego's would be even easier to play as. I remember update 3. Please no

[alpine plover]

I need carno in my life

[golden coral]

@zenith surge Just revert the bleed resist nerf (at least somewhat, if not in ful), instead of changing around the blood pool that is tied to weight (as far as I know). As for the pounce, that needs to be fixed irrespective of how carno should or should not handle bleed, since it's an omni issue.

[tall bronze]

Pounce itself is just vastly overtuned currently.

Too easy, too forgiving, too good.

[dusky surge]

the issue rn is the bleed movement multiplier, not base bleed resist or bloodpool. Revert that, and carno would bleed out regardless, because sprinting already fucks it up

[golden coral]

Isn't the movement multiplier part of the resistance, as in, taking more bleed when moving now than before? In any case, if you just reverted that change, it'd be better off, because playing more defensively would be viable, and not still just a matter of bleeding out. Sprinting wasn't change anyway, so it shouldn't make a difference as it stands.

[dusky surge]

resistance is technically a different stat

[golden coral]

So, revert the movement multiplier change that was applied then. I think that would be enough to make carno pretty okay again, omnis pounce issues aside at least.

[hollow canyon]

I think resistance is something that only Deino has and it basically halves the blood it loses.

Carno will remain pretty trash even if that gets reverted btw but I guess it could make it less of a trashcan.

I still wouldn't touch it, it's just really not worth playing.

[azure crescent]

I think it’s best to change hunger values/drain

Me and a friend came up with what would be a possibly good formula to make juvie dinos give good food, while not making adults feed you forever

Lemme see if i can find it

make it so that the player’s weight is multiplied by X amount at 0% growth, and then make that multiplication slowly disappear as the player grows into full size?

The value of X depends on the dinosaur

And might as well not fade away if its a really small playable

But making carno’s hunger drain slower might help with the bleed

[slim dragon]

It sounds weird to have creatures be worth more food than they actually weigh, just because they are juveniles

That would mean that a 1T stego is orth more food than a 1T carno, just because it's younger

[hollow canyon]

That wouldn't make Carno good imo, it's just a bad animal rn for multiple reasons.

Utah does everything Carno does just better

[frail bobcat]

I wouldnt say that

[winter iris]

I agree, carno is not a great playable rn. I play it just because I find Utah boring sometimes (too easy) and because I find herbi play style very boring. In the current state, as soon as the roster will have some others mid tiers, carno will just disappear

[frail bobcat]

Carno needs to get more food out of kills, then its all fixed

[hollow canyon]

Please tell me one animal which you'd rather be Carno against than Utah

[winter iris]

All the balance changes made to date had a precise goal I think: limit carno population. The fact is that in doing so they ruined the playable. Don’t get me wrong is still more than viable ofc

[hollow canyon]

Utah is better for killing everything MAYBE except Pachy

[frail bobcat]

Shite

[hollow canyon]

No matter what I play I'm always more wary of Utahs than Carnos

[winter iris]

Honestly, hunger drain is the last of carno problems. If you starve as carno, you play it very badly. OFC less hunger drain would be more sensible, but it is not its main problem

[hollow canyon]

I think Carno is viable-ish it's not like you can't play it

[winter iris]

I agree that playing as a meat grinder is not particularly good fun though

[hollow canyon]

it just really isn't worth playing

you can do more with other playables without putting anywhere near the effort you'd have to with Carno

Utah grows easier, is easier to maintain and kills stuff more easily

[frail bobcat]

The issue is that they fixed all the problems. They fixed carnos biterange and buffed its main two competitors +plus its blood pool nerf which benefit the other two animals it goes against. And the fact they made the hunger intake for all carnivores really screwed over carno

[hollow canyon]

Deino is a hard counter to Utah and the only thing that can bully them

[winter iris]

I don’t agree with you view

[hollow canyon]

there were no changes to hunger of Carno, it's been the same ever since this animal came out

[frail bobcat]

It needs more to get the same amount of food, but its the same with utah

[hollow canyon]

Utah actually had its hunger buffed

[hollow canyon]

Yea, do you not know that?

[frail bobcat]

No

[hollow canyon]

Utah used to have the same hunger time as Carno

Now it has the same hunger time as Deino

[frail bobcat]

So you say me that the active pack hunter can stay longer without food than the ambush plains hunter?

[hollow canyon]

It got buffed like in February or something when admittedly Utah was garbage due to the buggy nature of its pounce

[frail bobcat]

And now its too good

[hollow canyon]

I mean for starters I'd argue that an "ambush plains hunter" is an oxymoron but yes, Utah can last for 60 minutes without eating compared to 45 minutes on Carno

[frail bobcat]

It should be the 60 minutes for both of them lmao

[winter iris]

They buffed teno and Utah (Utah too much) , nerfed carno bleed resistance (not blood pool) making it ridiculously low. They nerfed carno movements, acceleration. Reduced bite hit box, which is good, but bite is now not working well in many situations. Ram is currently buggy.
This view that people have that TI problems are linked to carno is honestly just wrong. Carno has never been as op as Utah rn now or as strong as teno currently is, but people like to follow their own feelings rather than facts.
So, carno needed a bite hitbox adjustment, but will need some more work now. And, no, all the nerfs in once have been a bad idea, not a good one

[hollow canyon]

I don't really agree I think it would be ok for Carno to be more hungry and more active requiring it to eat more but the dino should just be better because it's not even the food that is the issue with this animal, as I said - I'd rather face Carnos than Utahs with every single playable in the game right now maybe except Pachy and Deino(where the latter doesn't care whether it fights Utahs or Carnos because it murders them both)

Carno bite is just bad, the animation is scuffed

this made it so that it caused it to have xenomorph jaws and when it got fixed the bites don't land when they seemingly should be landing from the perspective of Carno

this is because of how the animation actually works

it extends the furthest a little below where you're looking

it's basically the equivalent of having the crosshair above where you're shooting

[frail bobcat]

Utah needs a 1.5 second pounce fail getup time and carnos blood resistance needs to increased by like 15 percent (not to the old lvls tho). And the carno bite animation needs a rework (as aken said)

[hollow canyon]

Carnos blood pool wasn't changed

[winter iris]

What TI need is just a bigger roster (of proper playables not like troodon) to achieve a better balance, rather than changing stats all the times

[hollow canyon]

it's the same it's always been

[frail bobcat]

Fixed it

[keen plover]

Carno has the same BP. The multipliers are the only thing thats changed

[winter iris]

Agree on all points

[hollow canyon]

its resistance wasn't changed either

Just to clarify what was changed about Carno and bleeding

[keen plover]

Yeah*

[frail bobcat]

What was changed then?

[hollow canyon]

Carno got a nerf to its standing multiplier(it's a different thing than resistance)

[keen plover]

Carno is oppressive in a group and laughable solo. It's quite odd

[hollow canyon]

meaning that if a Carno is walking while bleeding it will be bleeding at relatively the same speed as e.g. Tenonto

if both are standing Carno will bleed out first

[keen plover]

Carno was able to tank multiple pounces previously, which was fine lmao

[hollow canyon]

it specifically got a nerf to its standing multiplier because... reasons?

[keen plover]

It couldn't run though

[hollow canyon]

it really couldn't

[winter iris]

This contradicts you previous statement actually hehe

[hollow canyon]

wdym? Which one?

[keen plover]

Standing, yes

It couldn't run though

Running always meant dying

[hollow canyon]

nah, there isn't much of a difference between a standing Carno and a standing Teno

as in - there wasn't

now there is a big difference

[keen plover]

Yeah

I meant that it was fine previously

Now it's stupid

[frail bobcat]

Diets
Boar added to Three dots nutrient.

Movement Modifiers
Standing Bleed Multiplier increased.
Walking Bleed Multiplier increased.
Trotting Bleed Multiplier increased.

Hunger Intake
Mass removed per tick increased.

Fracture HP
Body Fracture health reduced.

Primary Attack: Bite
Attack hitbox lowered slightly.
These are all the carno changes in u5

[hollow canyon]

oh nvm, it wasn't just standing

it was only running that was untouched

yea I forgot about that

[keen plover]

Running would have been overkill tbf

That thing would just fall flat after a pounce

[frail bobcat]

So the bleed multiplier needs to be lowered lowered slightly. To make a inbetween the u4 carno blood level and u5 carno blood level

[hollow canyon]

tbh they should revert all of that, the idea that Utah is a hard counter to Carno is about as sensible as having Magy as the hard counter to Allo

[hollow canyon]

no, it should be brought back to the normal level

[keen plover]

Carno is meant to be the counter to utah, not the other way around.

[hollow canyon]

there's 0 reason why Carno should be bleeding out faster than any other animal for no reason

Note - the only animal with an actual bleed resistance is Deinosuchus

all the others bleed out the same

[frail bobcat]

Kinda true, but then a carno could just bully packs of 5 utahs again

[hollow canyon]

it's just Carno that randomly got made to bleed faster because... reasons

[winter iris]

My bad, I read walking rather than standing

[hollow canyon]

the only reasons Carno was murdering Utahs so easily back then was because Utah's pounce was buggy

[frail bobcat]

I think 3 utahs vs 1 carno should be a even fight, everything else lower should be carno favored

[hollow canyon]

I tested it at length and in a 1 Carno vs 3 Utah scenario the fight was really close and that was with the pounce bugging out

[hollow canyon]

that's how it was before the changes

[frail bobcat]

True

[frail bobcat]

They should bring it back, you convinced me

[keen plover]

Yeah, mainly this. Carno when pounced even in update 4, had to stand still and limit movement. Since you know, utah bleed hasn't changed. The issue was every pounce was a lottery and the odds were stacked against you.

[hollow canyon]

Exactly ^

it's just that when i was testing this fight

there was a 30% chance that a pounce would end up with Utah getting hit

because it either bugged out or just went into recovery

despite the pounce hitting

[frail bobcat]

I kinda like this discussion, its civil and everybodys opinion is respected

[winter iris]

In U4.5 I was able to solo 6-7 utahs tbh, even more depending on their ability (or a bit less ofc), but let’s say in a 1 carno v 3 utahs it was approx 50-50 (maybe a bit in favour of carno).
Now a 1v1 Utah carno with equal skills is a 50-50 , and a 2 Utah v 1 carno is definitely on Utah side

[hollow canyon]

there was at least one situation where after the fight started one Utah just died straight away because it started levitating next to Carno

[keen plover]

tbf player skill

[hollow canyon]

in general it also really depends on the skill of both sides but

[frail bobcat]

Yeah, if both utahs are semi competent they kill the average carno

[keen plover]

I've cleaned out full raptor packs this update, doesn't mean that utah is bad

[hollow canyon]

Carno is meant to be hunting Utah-like animals

it should absolutely have the upper hand

[keen plover]

You need to see it from a good players perspective when using both playables

[winter iris]

Same did I, but a good Utah pack of 4 can kill everything pretty much

[hollow canyon]

when the larger animals come out

[frail bobcat]

Had a carno charge me and my friend from 200 meters once while we saw it. That thing died without a fight lol

[hollow canyon]

You will have things like Allosaurus or Albertosaurus in the game that will be killable to a Utah

meanwhile Carno will have to run from them unable to do anything to either of those guys

Carno is only supposed to do one thing - kill small animals

if it's bad at that then just remove it from the game

[keen plover]

It's the filter. THE pest control

Please let it be good

[frail bobcat]

And we have to remember, carno has a kit that is made to dominate small tiers.

Bruh, aken just said it

[winter iris]

That’s what I mean. Current balance may be almost all right in this exact moment, but as soon as more mid tiers will come out carno will become a poor choice

[hollow canyon]

Carno is just bad even now, I can't even imagine what it would be like if there was the whole roster out

you'd just never want to play it

[frail bobcat]

Dead from a rex tailhit

[hollow canyon]

Tbh I'm probably not gonna play it either way, I don't like Carno very much

[frail bobcat]

Who is gonna suggest the change now? Revert carnos blood multiplier and make utah getup time 1.5 seconds

[keen plover]

I love carno. It's just sad fearing 2 good utahs. Yeah, it's still possible but damn. Who wants to be on 10 blood after you kill them lol. But the moment I play it in groups, it's easy mode.

[winter iris]

1.5 seconds is maybe too much. I think now is less than 0.5 secs, a gradual increase is preferable to see how it works

[keen plover]

Make carno a good solitary creature

[hollow canyon]

it's 1 sec now from what I've heard

I never tested it but that's what I've been told

[keen plover]

It was previously 2.5-3 seconds

[frail bobcat]

It needs to be like that. I saw utahs survive failed pounces after landing infront of a carnos face

[winter iris]

Exactly. Plus, the fact that carno needs like almost 3 utahs to fill up its hunger makes no sense in the fact that it has to fear a fight with 2 utahs

As a solo Utah I am able to solo 2 carnos and escape if it goes wrong, as carno the escape option is a lot less viable

[keen plover]

There is no room for error. Get pounced, can't run. They gutted the standing turn. So now they land more pounces. The damage is too low. But the moment you're in a group, it gets easy. Too easy.

[winter iris]

Honestly if I am sure there’s only 2 utahs I don’t fear the fight, but if there’s 2 then it’s likely there are more hehe

[keen plover]

Thankfully, most players are bad. But the moment you come across that one decent pair or trio. Oh boy. You know you're dead.

[frail bobcat]

That is because we have mainly animals in the roster that carno does not to fear in groups

[winter iris]

And now the “good” level as Utah has decreased I think . Being a good Utah player is much easier now

[frail bobcat]

I can confirm and yet 80% of the players are still bad

[winter iris]

Honestly apart from playables that are useless for balance like ptera, hypsy or dryo, Utah has always been the easiest one

[frail bobcat]

I basically only play utah and taking down carnos has gotten easier than taking down tenos

[keen plover]

I've soloed more carnos this update than all the other updates combined. There's an obvious reason why lol

[frail bobcat]

I never soloed one

[winter iris]

Oh yea, by far. Taking down a teno is pretty difficult as Utah , especially in a 1v1 is super difficult. Carno is one of the easiest things in this game hehe

[keen plover]

Anyways, feels like I'm going in circles. Peace for now

[winter iris]

Yea, and you guys are keeping me busy in this discussion , my carno is starving now hahaha

[azure crescent]

This is a global change. It indirectly helps carno, and it goes well with the small game hunter approach.

[azure crescent]

No, because, as I said earlier, the value of X depends on the dinosaur

[slim dragon]

I still hate the idea of something yielding more food just because it's younger
How do you justify that ?

[azure crescent]

The value of X is tweaked for each dinosaur so that they're both roughly the same food in the situation you said

[slim dragon]

Wait so it's always 1
If it's tweaked so that every dino give the same amount of food ith the same eight, then nothing changes at all

[azure crescent]

That didn't come to mind

The ideal goal of this formula was to make hunting apex babies feel more rewarding

And also to make nest raiding be more worth the risk

Because right now, a carno has basically no reason to hunt, say, a baby dryo

The issue is tweaking the value of X though

[slim dragon]

I say it all should have to do with nutrients
Ideally as a carnivore, as long as you succeed in hunting, food should be plentiful, but some targets may give a better nutrient ratio compared to the amout of food you eat

I can see a juvie giving better nutrients for the same amount of food than an adult, because of better meat quality

[azure crescent]

Ideally as a carnivore, as long as you succeed in hunting, food should be plentiful
precisely the point of the formula idea

A baby dryo wouldn't give more food than an adult dryo, of course not, it would just give more food than its weight

[slim dragon]

That's where the problem is imo

[azure crescent]

Ideally the apexes have an early curve in the X multiplication fading away

So the babies are valuable, and the subs dont have busted hunger values

[slim dragon]

Creatures should just give much more and require a lot less food overall
Just don't change nutrient intakes (what I mean is a carno can entirely fill up on one dryo, but only fill 5% of its nutrients doing so)

If it wants to fill all of its nutrients to full, it's gotta hunt more dryos, or hunt more rewarding targets

[azure crescent]

It doesn't change nutrient intakes

Just the hunger

[slim dragon]

Then it does the exact opposite of what I'd want

[azure crescent]

What would you want?

Just the nutrients?

[slim dragon]

Just waht I said
Let things be as they are in nature and just make sense, while keeping the gameplay mechanic of nutrients. Animals eat AT MOST 10% of their own weight in order to get full (at the scale of The Isle's animals ofc, I know tiny ones eat a lot more)
An animal is about 70% of its weight worth of food. So a carno's stomach can hold up to 160 kg, and a dryo is worth around 75 kg of food. Then you tweak the nutrient values in order for it to remain interesting and not too easy.

Like, if they go ith the option that only organs give nutrients, I say something like the first 20 kg of a dryo's body ill fill your nutrients. The rest is just regular meat that can fill your stomach but not your nutrients. So you're not getting a perfect diet if you play the lazy hunter and mostly eat scraps

[azure crescent]

ah that sounds good too

[slim dragon]

And if you insist on making hunting juvies more rewarding, then it could be that depending on your growth, up to 40% of your weight is nutrient-rich organs, and that value diminishes as you grow until a basic value (that is still species-dependent but much lower)

[azure crescent]

i like that

i just want apex juvies in general to be at huge danger of being hunted by just about everything

specially deino, along with maybe a slight increase in egg batch

emphasis on maybe

[slim dragon]

I think once diets are no longer tied to species everyone will want to kill juvie apexes
Just for the satisfaction of preventing an apex from reaching adulthood

And because you can't go toe-to-toe with an adult apex if you aren't one yourself

[fossil bough]

I stopped playing around August, did they ever fix night vision and the Utah op bleed

[thin mantle]

They fixed NV, utah is just as busted as ever

[fossil bough]

thanks

[hexed sorrel]

@zenith surge 30%? from where? xD

[zenith surge]

I may have ran a bit

[hexed sorrel]

did you buck at all?

[azure crescent]

@zenith surge that sounds like a massive skill issue or just starving and not bucking

If you’re at decent hunger and high stamina, even an unbucked pounce will not leave you that low

[zenith surge]

I forgor to buck and I was at 25% hunger

The bucking was stupid on my part

[zenith surge]

No I forgot

[still cosmos]

this is groundbreaking, why has no one thought of this beforehand #balance-feedback message

stego with a six pack dying of hunger

[azure crescent]

@ashen frigate muscle very clearly showing and the skin being shrink wrapped isn't being fit

a healthy and well fed animal would be more chunky, like they are in game mostly

body builders aren't healthy, they look like starving animals

[still cosmos]

his point is being big and chunky while starving or suffering from malnutrition isn't realistic

[azure crescent]

but..the dinos aren't big and chunky when starving?

[still cosmos]

that's the point of his feedback?

he's saying they should look the part of malnourished or starving if that's the case, first things that die during starvation are outward fats, then underlaying muscle then eventually organ fat and muscle which leads to death

[azure crescent]

they should look the part of malnourished or starving if that's the case
bro they literally already do

hold on a sec

[ashen frigate]

Exactly

[still cosmos]

I don't know where the argument is

[azure crescent]

They're mostly slight texture changes, but it's a visible difference on how the fat died and is leaving the muscle to be very visible.
The things i would improve are i'd make the difference more emphasized in the torso area, to make maybe the ribs more visible

Either way, archosaurs and reptiles in general don't become living skeletons like we do when they starve, unlike us

[ashen frigate]

huh

I don't really see much of a difference

[azure crescent]

look at the limbs

[still cosmos]

darkened texture is all I see

slightly accentuated

[azure crescent]

Which is what i said lmao, i would emphasize it more

But not by a lot

Since again reptiles don't "look" like they're starving the same way mammals do

I think this feedback stems from the issue that this is only visible by the player that is starving, not the players around them

If you starve a crocodile for 3-5 months it'll look just about the same for the most part, just act different

[ashen frigate]

A human wouldn't look like a living skeleton either tbh

[azure crescent]

Literally look up starving person

Idk if i can send it here

Mammals function very differently from reptiles in metabolism

I do agree that just darkening the texture is lazy

It should be an actual model change

[ashen frigate]

you were saying?

[azure crescent]

I don't see any ribs showing

Also not an archosaur

[ashen frigate]

Yeah, but it definitely looks thinner than usual

[azure crescent]

I mean yeah, and much like in the models, the muscles show slightly more

The torso area doesn't change much, neither does the tail (depending on the animal)

[ashen frigate]

Actually, all I was saying is that the model should look less chunky or thinner, not to the point were bones can be visible

[azure crescent]

Like, a width change?

[ashen frigate]

Yes

[azure crescent]

i can see that tbh

apologies for the misinterpretation

[ashen frigate]

No worries

[neon willow]

@errant plinth while I agree... utahs dont have instant stun recovery. if you actually run out of stamina (via bucking or otherwise) while pouncing, its a 5s stun... which is more than enough time for the current roster to kill a utah (ask me how i know lol). same penalty if you got rubbed off by a tree

that being said... maybe more stun or missing a pounce (making it riskier) would work. i don't know about extending stun for a successful/utah initiated dismount, though because potentially that could lead to utah being nerfed too much... idk. perhap pounce's bleed needs to be nerfed slightly too

[errant plinth]

the main goal with my suggestion is to harshly punish people gaming the respawn system to take down things a baby utah has no business standing a snowballs chance in heck of beating, while also making bucking actually useable but especcially against packs where right now its a death sentence to try and buck because it doesnt matter if youre bucking a fresh spawn or a creature the same weight as you it doesnt matter your stamina tanks you cant run and you die.

as it is right now bucking is only useful against a single utah when you are absolutely sure they dont have a pack or there isnt a random one nearby that will join in

and bleed from pounce could use a slight nerf, but i think my solution of buffing bucking to where its actually useable will make pouncing and utah in general not as oppresive as it is right now, and just hard counter baby tap pouncers gaming the system, because they'll be flung into space if they try to pounce an adult lol well unless its a troodon a hypsi or a homalocephale

[hasty coyote]

except pachy, who resets that timer to be less. Like, you can technically ram a utah in the face and make it get up faster.
current knockdown timers are like 2.5-3 seconds (i cant remember which atm), and when utah falls off from pounce it is stunned for 5 seconds. So if you ram a utah sooner than 2 seconds after it falls off, it gets up FASTER. Which is another reason pachy has a bad matchup against utah atm. Personally, I would just make stunning a utah that falls off reset that 5 second stun. All it does is help pachy, since anything else just kills you regardless.

[silent hill]

@primal heart While I get that a Carno would completely roll a Pachy if it charged it because of weight, the Carno with it's small head would injure itself massively if it charged full speed into a charged Pachy, that's like running into a battering ram as hard as you could even if you are bigger your busting your head and ribs.

[azure crescent]

@primal heart if you wanna use physics then a carno would break its neck

[winter iris]

Partially true, I think carno has been proven to be able to sustain the load of two fully grown adults running into each other at approx 25km/h , if I’m not wrong. So technically it seems it wouldn’t break its neck also using physics. If it runs into a tree or a stego probably it would

[winter iris]

That’s not completely correct though. A pachy would never be able to exert the force Ona charging carno simply because the momentum caused by a 2 tons creature running at more than 40 kph would be too big for the pachy to counteract, it’d simply fly away. Maybe the bigger creature could experience some damage, but the smaller one would 100% die

I think the original feedback point is a bit too extreme though. While I understand the point, I am not sure that carno shouldn’t get stun at all. When ramming a teno i think it’d make sense if the carno gets stun by tail slam as well as teno gets knocked down (reciprocal stun basically). Against pachy I think that getting head fracture during ram with pachy not even getting damage or stun is a bit excessive, but probably it’s ok for game balance

[primal heart]

Yes, I think carno will get some damage, even serious damage, but I think pachy and teno will definitely get worse than carno.
And I don't think carno will stop charging immediately after taking damage. carno will continue to run for some distance without being manipulated by the player.

It's not that I want carno to be unharmed, but I don't think carno should be stunned and stop moving immediately.

In other words, teno and pachy are perfectly capable of avoiding carno's charge when they notice it, and if they can just stand there and stop charge, carno's charge doesn't make much sense in fight.

[silent hill]

The pachy in question would receive some damage from the charge and collision but not nearly as much as the Carno, the Carno's head was small and wasn't made for bone crushing collisions like the Pachy's head is designed to absorb shock damage, sure if the Carno rammed the side of the Pachy it would be crippled but head to head the Pachy comes out with less damage IMO.

The Pachy is also shorter which gives it a better center of gravity making it harder to knock over and giving it more advantages in using it's head as a weapon, the Carno would have to ram downwards towards the ground to connect flush and it's neck and head were not made for that sort of motion and combat.

[winter iris]

I don’t think this is correct tbh. From a physical point of view, pachy would simply be wiped out by the momentum of a 1.8ton creature running at more than 40kph into it, no matter its centre of gravity, skull etc. Of course it wouldn’t be great also for the bigger creature, but I highly doubt that pachy structure would be able to sustain the amount of force generated by a 2 ton animal running into it at 40kph. I’m not referring to pachy head, but but to its skeleton. Also, the lower centre of gravity could be even worst for pachy, because instead of simply flying away, if it was able to absorb the impact, its skeleton would need to absorb all the force and hence, not being able to sustain that load, would crush and break.
I think it makes sense that also carno gets some stun in game tbh, but the idea that pachy would physically be able to stop a carno ramming is just wrong. Ok for the game, but not for reality (although also carno would be damaged in reality)

[silent hill]

I'm not saying Pachy would stop the Carno's charge if a Carno decided to ram a Pachy head on the Pachy would be sent rolling and would likely take some body damage, but it's a suicidal move to pull on a Pachy because BOTH parties will be injured and likely unable to hunt or be at a severe disadvantage to other creatures, so while the Carno COULD ram the Pachy it would be against it's better interest to do so.

Animals do not take fights that have a high chance of injuring themselves, animals go for the sick, young, and old because it's a free meal, the only way I see a Carno hunting a Pachy is to use bite damage maybe some grappling, RAMMING or CHARGING of any kind works against the Carno in this situation.

[azure crescent]

25 km/h is less than half of the charge speed

the charge is roughly 60-70 km/h

somewhere between the two

[errant plinth]

carno has it rough enough with utah death squads and baby tap pouncers leave it alone until there is some balance done lol

[azure crescent]

i'm not trying to do anything to carno lol

[errant plinth]

probably should have did an at but i was talking about the most recent balance suggestion by @primal heart

[winter iris]

Mate, if you mention physics I expect that you know that two objects moving into each other at 25kph is the same thing as an object running into a wall at 50 kph

But yea, 25 is a lot less than charge speed . I just mentioned 25 because I seem to remember that it was the speed mentioned in that research I read

[azure crescent]

which is still less than charge speed

but fair

[winter iris]

I think the original feedback suggested a sort of buff to carno

[azure crescent]

it really just needs better hunger drain, reverting the bleed resistance nerf, or just a global change to hunger values

[errant plinth]

how is making it get stunned longer anything other than making its already tenuous position in the roster even lower in the food chain? only reason people even pick it over utah is its faster on the plains and its charge is deadly in the right circumstances, and well its a carnivore.

[azure crescent]

not more than those 2

[errant plinth]

aye i agree its not that dramatic of a change that is needed, utah is in a better place than pre update but its only check is basically a joke to it unless the carno player is really good

[azure crescent]

if it gets all 3 of these then its too much imo

hunger value rework is a given

so an hunger value rework + one of the other 2 is enough

preferrably the bleed resistance, but the hunger drain achieves the same purpose

[errant plinth]

just hunger drain and mostly reverting bleed will work imo

still have it to where a pair of good coordinated utahs or 3 average utahs can beat a lone carno that gets cocky

[azure crescent]

right but both pretty much do the same

the hunger value rework is NEEDED, not just for carno

like a dryo gives no food to a carno

[errant plinth]

well also dryos just dont exist in the game now except for novelty players trying something new

thats its own can of worms really the sidestep is utterly useless imo

really i remember the legacy days when almost universally dryos were the dedicated scouts of herds raising a racket whenever a carnivore or a shant came near

they should have some sort of ability that can mark carnivores for a short time sort of like what mono is gonna get with being able to sneeze on things to track them by smell

but it fades once you're out of line of sight for long enough

[azure crescent]

not a reason

[azure crescent]

it's being reworked to a boost in U6

[errant plinth]

i know i wasnt saying it was just pointing out they barely exist, but yeah hunger values really need looking into

[azure crescent]

yeah

[errant plinth]

maybe a slight drain reduction on carno but its supposed to be a very active high metabolism predator, but it shouldnt get hypoglycemic because it hasnt eaten for 5 minutes lol cant hardly nest as them right now cause youll starve or have to eat your kids

although it may make them unique if the drain is just oppressive enough to where unless you're lucky at least one of your kids is gonna have to die to feed the others, some shoebill stork stuff where the weakest will get singled out.

[azure crescent]

AND it makes bleed resistance better too

[errant plinth]

what explosively bleeding out isnt fun? lol, yeah the bleed is a bit comical, it should be threatening but not welp guess i die now once you get pounced

[winter iris]

I’d agree, as long as the roster remains the current one. With new dinos some playable might need adjustments. I think also bite animation should need some attention

[azure crescent]

yee

wait wdym bite anim

[winter iris]

Animation differs depending on the situation, and bite hitbox (although previous exaggerated hitbox problems have been solved) now presents some minor issues in some specific situations. Particularly in the utah v carno matchup it happens more than once that a bite that is actually delivered does not cause any damage. But again, this is a minor issue compared to bleed resistance

Like for example utah bite hitbox is much bigger than carno’s

When the roster will be almost complete , my opinion is that carno will also need a sort of revert (or a slight buff)to movements and acceleration nerfs it had in U5 or it’ll likely be completely ignored in favour of other mid tiers.
My opinion is also that U4.5 carno vs U5.5 Utah would be a fair matchup tbh, but we’ll never know hehe. Currently it is extremely easy to kill carno as Utah

[hasty coyote]

Pachy does get hurt from the charge, it gets a body fracture. So if you parry a charge as a pachy, you need to hide immediately. If pachy doesnt get away quickly, it then just dies because it has no stamina and carno can just bully it. While the carno, if it is outnumbered by a group of pachies or something, can just run back into the forest, heal, and try again later.

[winter iris]

Yea, I wasn’t saying carno shouldn’t get any damage in game, I think it’s probably ok as it is tbh

[neon willow]

@desert tundra most playables already have a pretty limited palette, with the exception of male display colors. Deinos get yellows/browns/greens/greys (essentially your choice of irl crocodilian colors), tenos have brown/grey/black, Utah's have reds/yellows/browns/greens/grey's, etc.

The only real deviation from non-standard animal colors (specifically reptile colors) is the male display, where you may get bright red/white/blue in addition to other colors. And hypsi, which is very much designed like a bird of paradise

I'm not saying we need to make neon colors universal or add shimmer or glow in the dark, but... Idk about restricting color choices further

[errant plinth]

nerfing teno is just gonna make stego even more oppressive cause thats one less animal to oppose a kosing stego trying to make their bad day everyone elses problem, granted tenos usually join in with them but still, i agree on the head vulnerability though but i dont know how animations could even be changed to not look too unnatural and obviously "hey im sticking my neck out, attack me for a critical hit"

[errant plinth]

if they cut down the color roster they might as well just remove the option to change dryos colors cause its very limited.

[winter iris]

Well, I think the point on teno countering kos stegos is extremely poor tbh hehe, a stego can easily wipe out a teno at any time, and teno has not been buffed to counter stego in the first place. Anyway, my observation on teno head, was just to highlight that for all its main attacks teno doesn’t have to expose its most vulnerable part , whilst for example pachy and carno have to. So this is to be considered when weighting the damage it deals and the damage it receives

[errant plinth]

true but yeah i think teno is fine its just quite literally every other herbivore that needs work lol, aside from pachys sometimes its pretty clear people just arent interested in playing dryo or hypsi except for the odd player seeking novelty that will likely jump off a cliff or drown themselves later cause they realize nobody else is playing them

[winter iris]

I also think it’s pretty much fine. I would just tune it a bit, mainly nerfing its bleeding capabilities tbh. But that’s it.
For dryo and hypsy I honestly think you could spend hours trying to make them more enjoyable , but people will still chose other dinos, simply because (although very easy to play) they cannot really engage in the only fun thing to do in Evrima , which is fighting. They are just insignificant for balance, and they will probably always be

[errant plinth]

i still think my earlier gripes with dryo have some merit, i remember when people played them all the time on legacy and they were just considered the unofficial scout dinosaur of herds, i think they should be that role again, and the cone suggestion for hypsis spit would make it instantly much more useful

as well as adding a delay before you can wipe off the gunk

but in general make both of them proper support dinosaurs for herds

[winter iris]

Yea you might be right

[errant plinth]

just in general make the hypsi a living dead by daylight flashlight that if you get tagged you clearly screwed up and now have lost what you're after or worse are now vulnerable to the creature you were ambushing if they want to press the attack instead of skedaddle

of course like dbd you could just use your ears

[hasty coyote]

You also need to realize, teno's main attack are extremely difficult to use offensively since they on on the rear.
Plus, pachy does not have a vulnerable part, its head has a reduced damage modifier iirc. The most it has is its body, which is just a 1x like everything else

[hasty coyote]

Those 2 have other reasons for their basically non-existent playerbase: They're unfinished and the abilities they do have don't help them escape.
Dryo doesnt have burrow, which is a very good safety net, since its likely much faster than anything that can dig up a burrow and can peck to death anything that can fit in. Also, dodge is basically useless since it stops your movement and takes a bit (lag especially ruins it), pressing A/D is honestly the better option. Hopefully the dodge rework helps it .
Hypsi doesnt have climb, which is very unique and a great escape tool. While it has super jump and spit currently, neither help it survive. Super jump can't really get you anywhere a utah can't reach you and it seems more useful once it can climb. Spit on the other hand is a whole other can of worms, heres my gripes with it: #balance-feedback message

So they are both just unfinished and are essentially just worse juvies since they don't get to the "fun part"

[neon willow]

Yeah upcoming mechanics will help both of them become more serious playables. Because they can't properly get away right now, most people play them as "let's see how long it takes for the Utah to kill me if I run in circles". Which is fun short term but doesn't exactly encourage long term survival or play

[dusky surge]

im very excited for completed dryo and hypsi

[errant plinth]

looking back at the history of balance suggestions from around the time update 5 is funny for the longest time everyone was on the lol git gud or just stop moving i totally wont kill you bandwagon in regards to carno struggling against utah but gradually people realized oh no its just reverse update 4.5, carnos a joke and utah runs everything, just like how utah sucked in 4.5 and everyone played carno.

[knotty forge]

Buff allo. Trike just pwn allo juvs

[winter iris]

You’re right on pachy, I didn’t think about it. On the other hand, I think the fact that teno attacks are difficult to use offensively is one hand normal because teno play style is defensive being herbivore and on the other hand, not completely true. In fact teno mobility is so damn good that it can run towards something , do a 180degree turn in 0.1 seconds and attack, plus the fact that tail slam hit box is insanely big and kick hitbox also includes space that is in the front part of the teno. So all in all, probably even better offensive attacks than a carno, not better than Utah considering how easy it is to deliver pounce. In addition, the reward for delivering the attack is huge , although they do not require a very good precision (even if I agree that some good timing is required). I remain of my opinion that teno has got too many pros as a playable, and remains the strongest one for hp/damage ratio, by far. I think at least its bleeding capabilities should be heavily nerfed. I think it wouldn’t make a lot of sense that it causes that amount of bleeding, and it already delivers a huge amount of damage, so it is a bit unfair that it has huge stam, massive damage and excellent bleeding all in one (not even mentioning mobility and acceleration)

Anyway, it would be interesting to know what do people disagree on within my feedback on teno, especially those who reacted with X. I think I listed a number of facts, so difficult to disagree on those, maybe they disagree on my suggestion that teno should not cause that massive bleeding?

[lavish timber]

i think teno’s bleed is fine tbh. I’ve been kicked by rabbits before while trimming their nails and those claws can cut deep, it seems realistic enough that teno gives the bleed that it does.

[worldly lake]

Teno just really isn’t that op, they die pretty consistently to everything on the current roster

[winter iris]

Lol, then you’re pretty bad at teno tbh

[worldly lake]

Wasn’t talking about myself

[winter iris]

Teno is stronger than both its main opponents: carno and Utah. So not sure what you are witnessing in game, unless you already have a bigger roster hehe

[wraith relic]

That’s because carno is a little weaker than it should be, not because of teno being to op

[azure crescent]

The bleed resistance barely affects the teno carno matchup

[slim dragon]

That's because it is slower than both

[hasty coyote]

That’s for 2 main reasons:
1: it can’t run from either, so it must be able to fight them.
2: neither are meant to 1v1 it easily. Utahs are basically 1/4th of it’s size, so they are meant to pack up to hunt a teno (which they can currently). Carno also has a rough matchup because teno is basically the maximum it can hunt alone, so fighting one is rough, but manageable if you can outplay it.

[winter iris]

I might have been misunderstood. I am not saying that teno is op, I think teno simply has got too many pros for an only one playable. I also think it is decently balanced atm, although clearly a lot stronger than carno and Utah. And my main point for nerfing its bleeding is that bleeding makes teno also a good hunter because it can follow and kill every opponent, having it extremely good stam. At least that’s what I do when playing teno

[winter iris]

Yes and I fully agree with this, in fact my main point is about nerfing its bleeding capabilities

[dusky surge]

Teno’s bleed damage is no proportionally greater than a carno, deino or even the bite of a utah. It scales the exact same with the damage, it has no uniquely powerful bleed compared to damage, only Utah’s pounce has that benefit

[slim dragon]

So basically your point is "Teno is balanced, but nerf it anyways" ?

[dusky surge]

eat grass and die

[slim dragon]

screeches

[dusky surge]

im so glad this phrase never loses relevance

[frail bobcat]

Eat grass and die

[keen plover]

I hope they rework stuns as a whole. I don't mind if teno is strong, but the whole 'let me stun you once, which lets me get another 2 kicks off' thing is pretty bad.

[thin mantle]

Is it? Why

I think it’s just a matter of animations not existing to make it look natural enough, having a hit that sets up subsequent combos is fine tho

[dusky surge]

i dont see the issue with that, whats the point of a stun if not to combo attacks?

[keen plover]

I think there should be a way where the creatures you do stun still have some input. Whether it reduces the rate of attack for them or lets them not attack and still be able to move a bit (reduced movement, but any movement is good). I dislike input lockouts overall.

Pachy stunning and cutting off a carno bite is pretty BS imo. I also dislike how effective stuns work with other playables. Yes, I know that balance shouldn't be around other playables, but it's pretty bad that a pachy or teno can stun you for a few seconds - which gives enough time for another creature to hit you.

@thin mantle

[thin mantle]

For teno specifically input lockouts are absolutely fine for animals in Carno’s size range. Its difficult to get slammed or kicked by a teno unless you’ve taken action to place yourself into that even if you’re slightly slower than they are because of how their attacks are oriented.
If Carno was able to attack during a combo from a teno, teno would need rebalancing for its attacks, which is honestly pretty unnecessary considering how short the stun currently is.
For animals like Pachy hitting a Carno or teno, yeah input lockouts are absurd, but that’s because of how Pachy fights and operates, it’s VERY capable of using its stunning abilities offensively, whereas teno HAS to use its abilities defensively, as well as being a much larger animal.
I wouldn’t demonize input lockouts entirely because they’re problematic on a couple animals…just give them different stuns

[keen plover]

Fair enough. Only reason I stated a rework in total is because stuns are a universal feature, regardless of species. However, I do agree it needs to change for pachy at the very least. It's kind of goofy how it stops the attacks of both carno and teno

[thin mantle]

Yeah Pachy canceling out a tenos attack basically eliminates any chance of a teno defending itself from a Pachy, the only reason it isn’t discussed more is because of the lack of pachies

Like at least Carno is still faster than Pachy and has forward mounted attacks that don’t stop it from moving

[keen plover]

I still remember the horrors of update 4.5

[thin mantle]

Dear god….the hordes…

[keen plover]

Literally everywhere. I love how each update completely changes the meta and not in a good way

[thin mantle]

And dramatically too….never any small incremental balance changes, the meta just gets put in a blender then served back to use with each patch

[winter iris]

If you read my messages and all you understood is this, I’d say you didn’t pay much attention when reading

[winter iris]

I don’t exactly know how bleeding works. But based on what you said teno kick deals more than 2 times the bleeding of a carno bite and a quite similar bleeding compared to deino bite. I think you can understand that this doesn’t make any sense. Unless of course you reply with the sentence “eat grass and die” as if I’m stupid asking stupid questions

[dusky surge]

because teno kick does almost twice the damage of a carno bite

175 damage on carno bite, 275 on teno kick

[winter iris]

I’d also like to understand the reason for answering in this way. After all the messages I sent this is your answer. I never said that teno should be walking food for other dinosaurs or that its attacks should be nerfed, and also observing the current stats the reality suggests that the sentence “eat grass and die” is just in your head as it doesn’t have any confirmation in the game or in my suggestions. So when you enter a conversation, just reply with useful answers based on what other people actually said, not on what you believe other people think

[hasty coyote]

pachy needs to stop carno's attacks when it rams, otherwise solo pachy is basically unviable. The stuns allow pachy to get a break and back off without tanking a bite in return. Without this, pachy gets 4 rams at most before it just dies because it tanks a hit back every time. Then you also have to hope you got a leg fracture on that first hit or you just die. Body fracture won't stop a carno before they kill you. you might be able to lose it with head fracture, but the issue is bleed. Pachy already has some poor bleed regen, getting bit for 1/4th or 1/3rd your hp makes you bleed a LOT. so pachy is constantly bleeding as it tries to run, and likely runs quite low on bleed as well. So a good carno can just track you down and kill you, even with a head fracture.

[hollow canyon]

That's fine I think but stopping attacks isn't the same as stopping all input from the player. You do not need to have the animal affected be completely unresponsive to any commands to make it unable to attack. The devs should try to give it a some sort of "disarm" instead of a stun making it so that a target hit is unable to retaliate but can still move freely.

Or perhaps that combined with some slow, there's a lot of options

There are just so many options that it would be a shame not to explore some of them while designing the combat system

[hasty coyote]

Maybe, but I'd have to see how that plays out. Pachy has already been hit with a lot of nerfs, any more may just make solo pachy unviable. Especially if you just want to nest as 2 pachies, it would be incredibly difficult for them to defend themselves and their babies from a carno. Since they can't nest on rocks, it would make defending babies from a carno nearly impossible. And if you cant defend your nest, then why nest at all?

That is why I would rather them just buff the animals who struggle against pachy to have ways to defend against them. Such as giving teno prio over ram with tail slam and kick, potentially being unable to be stunned from a ram in the back while using those moves, but being hit in the face or torso still stuns them.

[hollow canyon]

It's a non-argument, not every animal will be able to defend its nest. How do you think they're going to defend their nest when something much larger than Carno is in the game? What if it's found by an Acrocanthosaurus? Would you want them to stun it so that they can defend their nest too?

Pachy simply has no right to cancel all input from a player controlling an animal 3times + larger than Pachy, it's ridiculous and absurd and has to go.

[hasty coyote]

fair point

[hollow canyon]

It's trash balance which shouldn't be introduced into the game, it should be balanced around the whole roster instead of the thought of "Carno is the biggest carnivore in the game". Carno isn't going to always be the biggest predator around. It's also specifically designed to munch on Pachys, Utahs and other small lads like that, it's natural that it has the upper hand against them. In future both of these animals will be just two of many available species.

[hasty coyote]

It may not be the biggest predator always, but its going to be the biggest thing that can reliably hunt the small tiers, so they need ways to counterplay carno. Otherwise you just die because a carno saw you, which is not very good game design imo.

[hollow canyon]

I don't know why you're assuming that at all. There's no reason to assume that Carno is going to be the biggest thing that can reliably hunt the small tiers at all.

[hasty coyote]

its the fastest thing in the game, and I doubt anything over 2 tons should just be able to run down something like a dryo

[dusky surge]

Allo is very much implied if not outright stated it will also be going after smalls, and it is much larger than carno

[hollow canyon]

^

[hasty coyote]

then thats an issue in of itself, how are any of the smalls going to be able to handle something 10x its size and is able to catch it?

[dusky surge]

Also deino exists, the 8 ton animal that hunts small tiers

[hollow canyon]

if they are bad - they won't, they will be able to the day they learn that they don't have to run in a straight line

[hasty coyote]

deino is its own issue as well, but at least its limited to water

[hollow canyon]

and that you can actually TURN while running in this game

[dusky surge]

Allo is an ambush predator, also something implied and explicitly stated. Smalls will always out-endure it

[hollow canyon]

Dryo used to be slower than Utah back in update 2 and I still survived and even mauled Utahs with it without much trouble

Also - as Wave pointed out, smalls have a better stamina pretty much in every case

so that's another way they can survive

by staying alive long enough so that their predator runs out of steam

Pachy doesn't need and shouldn't have the ability to stun things 3 times its own size

if it ends up being bad it can always get a buff somewhere else

[dusky surge]

Honestly, I believe pachy should simply be designed more around its environment, not shoehorned into plains with everything else so it feels justified buffing it to carno-level combat

[hollow canyon]

And yea that's also true - Pachy being in the plains is just some weird misunderstanding, it doesn't belong there at all

[dusky surge]

It wouldn’t need to constantly fight carnos if it wasn’t told to share its space with carno

[hollow canyon]

its diet and the map should get changes so that it doesn't have to go there and if it does it should very much be at a high risk of dying just like Deino would if it decides to stroll into a desert

[hasty coyote]

so you're telling me, an animal whose entire purpose is to outrun things, should be able to be caught reliably by something 6x its size. But pachy's 2 second stun is too much? That just sounds terrible imo

[dusky surge]

What?

[hollow canyon]

What?

Which animal are you talking about? Pachy's purpose is not to outrun things at all

it's to cripple them and then get the hell out

or just maul them if they're small enough

And yes Pachy's 2 second stun is too much, waaay too much

not to mention it being able to knock down animals twice its own size

[hasty coyote]

Yall were saying allo should be able to catch small tiers, dryo was my example. So something like allo should be able to catch dryo or gali reliably, yet pachy cant have a stun on carno?

[hollow canyon]

Oh look, a Cerato, would be real shame if some crazy Pachy decided to just kill it be repeatedly knocking it down/breaking its legs and slowly mauling it

[hollow canyon]

I didn't say that

[dusky surge]

If it ambushes and the dryo is preoccupied or essentially has its hands off the keyboard, allo probably will catch it

[hollow canyon]

We're saying that Allo IS implied to be able to hunt small animals

[dusky surge]

Otherwise it ain’t happening

[hasty coyote]

or as I said above, give them priority on attacks. Cera is getting a grapply/septic bite, just make it have prio over pachy ram.

[dusky surge]

Allo is fast enough to catch the dryo in the first 3 seconds of the chase, and for the rest of the chase, I doubt the allo has the advantage

[hasty coyote]

then thats not really reliably, a rex could ambush a hypsi if it isnt paying attention.

[hollow canyon]

If Carno is supposed to be the biggest carnivore hunting smalls then you might want to let the devs know about that because they clearly didn't get the memo

[dusky surge]

I’m going off the concept art where it jumps a galli

[hollow canyon]

A Rex could trot down a Hypsi based on what was shown so far

if not outright just catch it

[dusky surge]

Rex trot looks very intimidating lol

[hollow canyon]

Where do you have any info on Cerato getting a grapple?

[hollow canyon]

28km/h, it's faster than Stego's sprint

[dusky surge]

Concept art I assume

[hasty coyote]

could have sworn we heard something about that, may be wrong on that tho. Then my point on septic bite still stands.

[hollow canyon]

I'd assume the animation that Kissen was showing some day

[dusky surge]

Jesus Christ they weren’t lying about bloodhound endurance rex

[hollow canyon]

we didn't

I don't see how septic bite is in any way stopping a Pachy from repeatedly CCing it by knocking it down and breaking all of its bones

you're not even going to land that bite on Pachy

if the Pachy is good that is

[hasty coyote]

Then still, I think is bad when you can just make big animals able to destroy smaller stuff, when the smaller stuff cant even run away or fight back.

[hollow canyon]

Well, if the smaller stuff isn't where those specific larger animals are then the problem doesn't really exist

you will never balance the game in a way so as not to have match ups where one animal is just screwed against another

what has to be avoided is a situation where one animal gets torn into shreds by many other playables on the roster without being able to defend itself in a realistic manner

I've already said that Pachy would be just fine with a disarm instead of stun

that gives it enough lee-way to bonk a Carno and breaks its leg

if it doesn't break the leg then it's fine too

[dusky surge]

Galli sharing carno’s ecosystem makes sense because it’s quick and agile enough to just evade it. Pachy sharing carno’s ecosystem means now you need to make pachy carno-ready, thus making everything smaller than carno vulnerable to pachy’s tomfoolery

[hollow canyon]

since disarm doesn't stop ALL input by the player controlling Carno it can last longer than the stun

or it can have a much shorter CD

meaning that you can keep on disarming Carno, making it unable to bite, repeatedly

since in that case if Carno keeps on tanking those attacks it has only itself to blame

because it can just move away rather than stand there like an idiot catching all of those attacks

[dusky surge]

Pachy’s placement has lead to its balance being all over the place to account for the bigass speed predator it’s forced to share a home with

[hollow canyon]

The speed predator that honestly shouldn't even have been introduced this early

but that's a different story

I can see what the appeal of this animal was

it's relatively simple and doesn't rely on any specific mechanic to as big of an extent as most other carnivores

so you can just do its special ability and throw it into the game

nevertheless I'd still argue that wasn't a good idea

[dusky surge]

I do think a great deal of these issues can be accredited to literally just Spiro

When you make everywhere but the plains essentially uninhabitable, you kinda have to cram everything in there

[hollow canyon]

Spiro does create a lot of issues yea, too much foliage, large swathes of the map are just useless and completely uninteresting

I'm hoping it changes but I'm not going to be holding my breath

I'd rather be a pessimist and get surprised positively than end up being disappointed

[dusky surge]

Gateway looks like a considerable step in the right direction (coasts are likely going to be more accessible and easier to inhabit comfortably)

Since they aren’t delegated to one corner of the map, and rather surround the entire map as the whole island is accessible, no blue walls

Any direction a coastal animal walks, it will find coasts

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't know since I'm not QA but I'm glad those are your impressions

[dusky surge]

Im not QA either, Im just resending what I’ve heard from devs

Entire island is accessible

[hollow canyon]

oh right, well stress tester or whatever else

[dusky surge]

No stupid blue walls

[hollow canyon]

Let's wait to see it in action

[dusky surge]

The absence of the walls is a huge relief to me

[hollow canyon]

I can't make any predictions based on a couple of pictures where there's only a few things being visible without knowing which food is located in what area and what not

[dusky surge]

As well as the diversity in biomes, highlands or arid (whatever it is) looks very interesting

A plains-like area with hills and an absence of a bush every 2 meters

Seems like an area where carnos, stegos, galllis and so on will thrive with the distance they can see

[thin mantle]

The thing that really matters to me is the layout, which I haven’t been able to see much of….so I’m just waiting till I can play it

[tall bronze]

Layout is very important for player flow

Like a pipe. Can't have water drain if the pipe is clogged

Spiro is a rusty pipe made of styrofoam and bone

[thin mantle]

The map layout is by far the most important part of it's design, it's what determines the gameplay loop of everything in the game, migration is dependent on it

[azure crescent]

Known biomes are highlands, temperate swamps, rivers, lakes (?), cliffs/rocky mountains, coast, jungle, cycad grove, more temperate and sparse-ish forest, redwoods, caves

redwoods since we got confirmation that its ambience is being worked on

we also got environmental assets important for small tiers such as hollow logs and uprooted trees

here’s the more temperate-ish forest

Atleast in layout and diversity it seems like a massive step up

[frail bobcat]

I hope it makes the forest actually playable

[azure crescent]

Hopefully

The paths/roads are good too

With alternate paths that may take longer/shorter

[frail bobcat]

paths?

[azure crescent]

Yes

We see them in screenshots and in the streams

They lead to important places iirc and go by human structures

Some areas of the path are perfect ambushing spots, although with ways to go around them at the cost of a longer travel

[frail bobcat]

that would be insane

[azure crescent]

I remember dondi saying just about everything that isnt a sauropod could hide behind one of said ambushing spots

Don’t recall very well tho

[frail bobcat]

So that is gonna give carno as a ambusher a huge plus

[thin mantle]

lol....carno....the ambusher

[somber sphinx]

The plains hunter than ambushes

But unironicaly I don’t mind carno as an ambusher…for now but when allo gets added it could change to a hybrid between a ambusher and pursuiter

[thin mantle]

I do, doesn't at all fit it and never will, like I don't think I CAN define it as an ambusher

[tall bronze]

I will still always find it confusing how an open plains hunter is given an ability best used in an ambush and even then you just step 5 inches to the right

"Uhm but there's lots of hills and bushes to hide behind so it's fine"

Yeah that's called Spiro being a poorly designed map. Don't balance creatures around a bad map.

Heck, even just activating it before you reach your target isn't good enough because you can still just step out of the way

"Oh no, this creature that has horrible turning is running straight at me. Whatever will I do-oh I know" 🚶‍♂️

[somber sphinx]

Yeah it being an full on ambusher I hate but being a mix I’d like more, pursuing things that are smaller than them (or things running from them) and ambushing bigger targets like magy, dibble, teno and so on

[tall bronze]

Where would it ambush from though if it's primarily in plains? I know there will still be some foliage here and there on Gateway but that doesn't matter in terms of distance. If you can see your prey in plains, they likely see you as well.

[somber sphinx]

Hey

Stop making sense alright

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/yeet-bomb-explosion-cat-mad-gif-16907961

[somber sphinx]

Well I fully agree but what else could we give it to make it a full on pursuit hunter and not make it as op as u2 carno

[tall bronze]

I honestly have no clue ;o;

Carno has always been an enigma to me

Bad turning
Hunts small agile stuff
Hunts in plains
Super obvious

What does it d o

[somber sphinx]

Someone did suggest carno having a body slam or some sort

And having a lock on ability when hunting smalls

[tall bronze]

Not long ago I had wondered if a "lunge" of sorts may work....but it still becomes nullified because small animal press D go woosh

Like you run down prey, get close, press the button and for a second burst forward and try to grab em

But again, it's as obvious as ram and you can once again just go left/right

[somber sphinx]

I mean…it’s not a bad idea

[tall bronze]

At least to me, a lot of issues come down to Carno's main prey just pressing A or D and winning. Maybe I just don't know how to play it right but I speak from experience as the prey as well.

It's not hard. "Oh he's coming, better press D."

[somber sphinx]

Honestly, as carno I’ve had an easier time hunting things teno sized than dryo sized animals

[tall bronze]

But you can't make Carno more agile because then it becomes too good

Even Carnoflauge wouldn't work!

[tall bronze]

Yeah at least Teno sized stuff can't turn on a dime

But devs want it to be small hunter so like.....wh-

[somber sphinx]

What todo

[tall bronze]

I just never (even back in legacy) understood the idea of something with awful turning hunting things with great turning

That's like making something with slow speed hunt things with high speed.

Then telling it it hunts in the open

[somber sphinx]

[tall bronze]

I guess one thing that could assist is if tall grass worked

Like Carnos out in savannas lurking in the grass like a Cheetah

Unfortunately grass likes to stop existing past 10 meters ;o;

[somber sphinx]

Yeah that too

Even in carnos concept it was shown in the tall grass

[tall bronze]

That way it's open fields while still allowing ambushes

Also spices up small gameplay in that area

Now that lunge idea I mentioned.....thought of something else for it.....

What if it had 2 ways to be used

Method 1 is pursuit lunge. You chase something and when you get close enough, lunge forward and attempt to grab/maul them. The added speed increases damage but missing increases recovery time. (That's 1.8 tons running into something, it's gonna do more damage than just biting)

Method 2 is ambush lunge. You can activate lunge as long as your moving (even stalking) and it will give you a VERY brief burst of speed, but the main benefit is reduced acceleration time.

So method 2 is like ambush boost but actually not bad

The speed boost may not even be needed. I just added it to give you a kick to acceleration

So you could use this proposed ability in different scenarios when prey already knows you're there or doesn't. Chase em down and attempt a risky grab, or ambush from tall grass in an attempt to take them down before they can react.

[thin mantle]

It would never be any more of an ambusher than any other carnivore, but of basically ALL of the carnivores it relies on it the least and is probably the worst at doing it...

[somber sphinx]

Kinda like this

[somber sphinx]

Yeah I agree but what else would it do and what other abilities should it have? And not to make it as op as u2 carno

[thin mantle]

Side to side headswing that only knocks down/staggers targets half it's size or smaller

Compensates for it's lack of agility in a chase by allowing it to deal with jukes

[somber sphinx]

Tbh I’d replace its alt attack with that instead

[thin mantle]

No it's alt attack serves a very different role

Plus it halts movement

[hasty coyote]

so you want it to headswing while moving?

[thin mantle]

Yes

Very low damage too

[hasty coyote]

that would need a lot of tuning on carno's stats.

[thin mantle]

Not at all, it's a very simple implementation it's already basically balanced around it

[hasty coyote]

it basically allows carno to hit 2 bites instead of 1 on a fleeing target

[thin mantle]

Well...if it lands the attack then yes, which requires the target to be to the left or right of you

Plus it's mathematically more like 1.5-1.3 hits

I wouldn't make it deal much damage if it were up to me

less than bite

[hasty coyote]

again, i point to this since I have the most experiece in it and its extremely finicky: Pachy v carno 1v1. Pachy has to hit a leg fract or maybe a head fract if it can escape quickly. Otherwise it just gets ran down and dies. Atm, its in a decent spot, prob the best it has been. However, adding that sways it heavily in carno's favor. Instead of having to hit pachy with 4 bites, it instead just needs to hit 2 head swings and get 2 bites while its on the ground. Which basically half's pachy's hp in the fight.

[thin mantle]

It is gonna have a really hard time landing a swing on a pachy coming directly at it, can't be used forward it'd have to stop and reorient, so if anything it's an indirect buff to pachy

[hasty coyote]

except pachy isnt only running in a straight line at carno's face. Especially affter a ram, pachy has to backs off to let the stun immunity wear off. Plus, you have to go in on the side of the carno to get the leg fracture, where it can now swing and knock you down.

the only issue with carno's turning is basically the utah matchup and that smaller things can juke it (which is their only option, and they have to juke it for a whole minute). So utah matchup is the main issue, so if utah doesnt get a different nerf next patch, potentially just make any damage taken during pounce cause utah to get knocked over or stunned (not the 5 second one).

[thin mantle]

Alright, easy solution is to make ram take priority

Like seriously this isn't a difficult mechanic to find solutions for

And this isn't really in an attempt to fix any balance issues as much as it is to make carno's kit coalesce better

[hasty coyote]

no, but it causes a lot more issues than it solves.

[thin mantle]

Like?

Because all the one's presented so far have very simple solutions

[hasty coyote]

the ones I stated, as well as other interactions I may not think of on the top of my head.

Plus, what does it really solve, except give carno more tools?

[thin mantle]

Well A: It replaces one tool with another, so it's a neutral "addition" by sheer numbers.
B: Charge is a ridiculously ill fitting ability for carno, ambush as a playstyle is very ill fitting for carno as well, and it exists within an environment that makes that especially difficult for it. Even if charge was easier to execute I'd prefer carno to rely on persistence than burst damage, since that makes it worse at catching smaller prey and better at taking down bigger prey, which is sorta the opposite of what it's stat balance makes it good at

[hasty coyote]

It could work, but my main issue is still that it could make hunting small things a bit too easy for carno. Which I understand it specializes in, but the prey at least needs ways to escape.

[thin mantle]

At that point I'd make carno's head turn when sprinting worse, as apart of it's animation when turning it shifts the front half of it's body WAY too quickly and it sorta cripples it's own disadvantages....like it's not hard to catch anything as a carno rn, or at least not for me since the animation is so forgiving

Ironically this degree of shifting from left to right only exists on two other animals when turning during a sprint...deino and stego

And for clarification, I'm not talking about the camera based head turning, I'm talking about how the entire front of the torso can shift the position of the head dramatically when turning slightly to the left or right

[hasty coyote]

It could work, but I would have to see how it plays out in game, it impacts a lot of different fights, so it can cause some issues.

[thin mantle]

The only others it impacts is teno and Utah, and it effects both in opposite ways

It makes tenos fight….technically harder, but only in groups, solo it provides an option that wast there before since in a 1v1 context charge is useless

In the case of Utah it makes them better, tho not significantly, but still better

Mind you I’m not talking about a full on stun, just a stagger, which currently don’t exist in game properly

[tall bronze]

"I’m not talking about a full on stun, just a stagger"

Lose all ability to play the game, got it 🤝

[thin mantle]

Ideally charge deletes your irl keyboard from existence

[tall bronze]

That's how being pinned feels. Got pinned as a Utah once and literally sat there with my hands on my lap like "welp......guess I'll wait to die....."

[tall bronze]

Having a debuff for humans who are too close to dinosaurs creates the same exact issue if the idea were for other dinosaurs; it can easily be abused. But I'd say even worse for humans.

Raptor wants to ruin fun. Raptor finds human. Raptor stays just close enough to human to trigger debuffs. Raptor is faster than human and can avoid him. Human can do nothing.

Granted if they had a gun, maybe. But the chances of that are quite low based on what we know of finding guns and ammo, and it's not even a guarantee it'd work. Plus you'd just risk getting yourself killed by things that heard the gun shot.

Another issue is if you're trying to hunt something and are considered "mixpacking" by the game. Imagine being a raptor and stalking humans, then suddenly the human sees he's being debuffed. "Oh, that must mean a predator is nearby. Better leave."

[dusky surge]

tbf, if a raptor is near a human, it can do a whole lot worse than debuff it

[tall bronze]

True, but ye get what I mean 🤝

It's a similar effect to predator music.

While cool in concept, it could potentially ruin ambushes

[hasty coyote]

Plus I have a better idea than just using debuffs, just use food and water like we do for other species.
First, make sure there are not many diet plants around human buildings or loot areas. This forces herbivores to either leave humans, or the humans to follow the herbivores away from their relative safety. This also makes less herbivores in the area for carnivores to hunt.
Second, make ai not spawn near and try to run away from human buildings/loot areas. Same as with herbivores, forces the carnivores to search for food elsewhere... or kill the humans there.
Third, make humans have to loot food/water from buildings. This forces humans to stay at least relatively near their areas to make sure they don't just die.

All of these combined should make mix-packing with humans much more difficult and less viable by limiting their resources. If you leave the loot areas with a dinosaur for too long, you run the risk of not finding food at the next one and dying. If a carnivore stays near a human area for too long, it may need to eat the humans when it cant find food. If a herbivore stays at a human building just eating grass, it will be extremely weak because of its poor diet.

[tall bronze]

I always just imagine that diets combined with migration would make sticking with a human pretty not worth it. Like sure they could follow you, but they're slow. Even for a slow dinosaur 😛 And good luck protecting them

[hasty coyote]

I'd also imagine theres plenty of friendly fire with humans lmao. Theres so many scenarios where I can see a human accidentally shooting a dino, a human purposefully shooting someone's dino friend, and dinos going after the wrong human.

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

Also humans are encouraged to kill humans, so your human buddy can and probably will get JFK’d

[hasty coyote]

I feel like you should be more encouraged to help other humans too. So you can either go like lone wolf and hide from dinos and kill other humans for their loot, or you can group up with other people and work to rebuild a facility and defend it from dinos.

[tall bronze]

Yeah I'd rather there not be specific "literally only added to make you kill other humans" reasons to kill other humans aside from just loot and whatnot. Don't need deathmatch 2.

[dusky surge]

Personally, I don't think humans should actively be encouraged to kill anything

Except maybe strains

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm.

[thin mantle]

Yeah humans should ideally be the least encouraged or enabled to kill considering they’re the only ranged class in the game

Next to tribals, but tribals are so in a far more limited capacity

[dusky surge]

Humans should be strong but vulnerable, so them attacking is discouraged through getting hard punished through vulnerability (guns are loud, create a distinct smell and cost ammo). Ideally, they'd prefer to use weapons defensively rather than offensively, and as a last resort

Tribals, on the other hand, should have a decent stat pool, easy-to-obtain and more stealthy weapons and an encouraged bloodlust, but not have the sheer damage of normal humans

[frail bobcat]

@fading zinc you serious?

[analog mirage]

Humans can’t really run away from anything but are able to defend themselfs with guns so sure you might get a easy meal but you also could end up severely low on health or even dead

[winter iris]

@rain bane I also think that baby utahs pouncing adult creatures (or anyway creatures a certain amount bigger than them) should get damage and stun if those creatures start bucking

[rain bane]

Yes, this is good idea too

[thin mantle]

Might have some spillover into the matchups or Utahs attempting to hunt targets as big as shant, which honestly isn’t a problem

[azure crescent]

@winter iris i don't necessarily think anything is wrong with making teno viable

it can't outright chase carnivores down without getting punished reliably, and it makes them think twice before approaching it

[frail bobcat]

@fair fulcrum three deinos shouldnt die to a singular stego in the current state of the game, thats all I am saying

[fair fulcrum]

But they did

[frail bobcat]

Then its a issue of skill. You literally have 4 times its health and more damage output together

[hollow canyon]

Remember that the key thing in a fight against a Stegosaurus is the locational damage. Deinosuchus can actually 1v1 a Stego as long as it stays on its head. It's a very difficult fight but it's absolutely doable 1v1. If you keep biting its limbs and its back you can get 1v3ed though so keep that in mind.

I suggest going on some free growth server and practicing there with friends it will do wonders for your future encounters with Stego.

[fair fulcrum]

Thanks for explaining bro

[hollow canyon]

No problem at all, you're welcome

[winter iris]

I fully agree on this, but the point is not having teno viable. Also because it is already more than viable being the strongest land playable apart from stego.

[azure crescent]

Please do elaborate how that is a bad thing for the game's balance as a whole. It perfectly fits teno's intended niche, and it isn't unbalanced. As you said, it's speed is its main weakness. Teno's bleed is directly tied to its damage, which it can only do in high numbers from behind. It's agility is to help it actually get in position to hit you. It's mobility is about as good as utah's, except slower land speed, worse jump, and better swimming.

[winter iris]

I’m not sure what you’re referring to in your first sentence, but I assume you refer to teno bleeding capabilities? If so, even if I already said that its not something that completely messes up the game’s balance, it is anyway something that I think give it a quite unfair advantage considering how strong its attacks already are. The fact that bleeding is tied to damage is, honestly, not a point worth discussing because it would be extremely easy to apply a factor to it in the code or remove it completely leaving bleeding to claw attack. In addition, speed is its weak point m but it isn’t really weak being almost equivalent to that of a Utah. Going Through all the messages everyone is basically confirming the facts that I listed, the only difference is that many people think these facts are fine as they currently are, whilst I think that teno should not rely on bleeding to defend itself for two/three reasons: the first one is that it has been given extremely strong attacks damage wise, the second one is that it doesn’t really make a lot of sense that a teno kick inflicts that amount of bleeding (which I’d agree could be cause by an allow bite or something similar). The The third reason, not extremely important though, is that teno is currently extremely good at hunting down its opponents because of the combination of stamina and high bleeding it causes , so this seems to me a bit unfair when no other playable does has got all these abilities together

[azure crescent]

What would you do to improve it?

Also a teno can't reliably hunt down carnivores that have atleast like 80% of their stam

[winter iris]

I played teno like 3 times in my life and I have always been able to hunt down everything in a very reliable way. And I’m very bad at playing teno

[azure crescent]

What were you hunting down exactly?

[winter iris]

As I said, its not something I’d prioritise tbh considering that the game has other bigger problems atm, but what I’d do is removing bleeding from its kick and leaving it to claw attack

[winter iris]

Carnos, pachys , utahs. Mainly carnos, not exactly very good players I have to say, but still I could hunt them down pretty easily

[hollow canyon]

Yea Teno is pretty good at hunting things

The only issue are the rear-facing attacks

but other than that - it's a pretty good hunter for a herbivore

[azure crescent]

A carno with 100% stam cannot be chased down reliably by a tenontosaurus because it covers enough distance that, after the teno catches up, it'll have a little bit more stam to cover enough distance that the teno can't catch up anymore. And if the teno tries to trot the carno down after having low stam, it can't actually kill the carno due to the lack of stam.
I will say though, it is true that it should be a little less capable of chasing things down.

Even mid-chase it cannot attack you properly unless you're not running

[hollow canyon]

Well... if Carno has 100% stam it might be hard but Carnos rarely have 100% stam

especially since they're actually reliant on using it during a fight

[azure crescent]

Which is a fair point, but then again, so are tenos

[winter iris]

Mate, realistically speaking (because that is what lints for balance, not theory) a carno would never be even close to 90% stam when facing a teno, so the scenario of a carno with 100% stam can be discarded and not even discussed. Let’s say 90% stam could be a starting point , but that’s even generous. Also, if a carno runs away it is generally for 2 reasons, low stam or high bleeding and damage. So when a carno runs away it almost always possible to hunt it down. The only scenario in which it is difficult is if the carno adopts a hit and run approach

But overall, I think teno vs carno is quite enjoyable now…at least more than Utah vs carno which I think is not good fun on both sides tbh

[frail bobcat]

Utah vs carno is just utahsided rn, which is stupid. i am hoping for u6 to brinf the balance changes

[winter iris]

Agreed. That’s why also when playing utah is rarely good fun because there’s a lack of adrenaline , basically you know that most of the times you’re going to survive no matter the mistakes you do

[frail bobcat]

Landing infront of a carno and still surviving . . .

[winter iris]

Well, that doesn’t really mean you have to die 🙂

[frail bobcat]

10 meters

A failed pounce

[azure crescent]

If a carno is low enough on hp then the teno either got 3 headshot kicks at the minimum, got 5 kicks for an average number, or ~8 tail slams for the maximum realistic scenario (tail spammer). This is:
~15% stam gone at the minimum
~25% stam gone at a medium number
~40% stam gone at the maximum
These all get a carno to 400-300 hp left. If we use a carno that's on around 70% stam left, or around 60% which i find is the most common stam, then a teno would have around 30% stam left at the max, or like 10% stam at the minimum.
Both of these numbers are dangerously low, considering how teno relies on its stamina a lot.

These are very rough numbers based on experience, i do not know the %s at an exact level