balance-feedback-discussion

[twilit juniper]

Ooh ok, sorry didn’t read it right

[golden coral]

Hence why the main sentiment from me is that current utah isn't really balanced for when it actually works. Before the pounce worked, an entire utah pack would die to a solo carno due to them just.. failing pounces for whatever reason the game saw fit to give them.

[thin mantle]

No problemo

[golden coral]

It wasn't due to the carno back then being able to somehow tank massive bleed, or any other reason. It was due to the utahs not being able to inflict their always lethal bleed because the game just decided that no, not today.

[tight cove]

you guys are acting like pounce is a click to win button 😭

[twilit juniper]

Yeah I agree Erik.. I feel like the magnetism was almost intentional by the devs.. (just bumped up to a extreme..)

[twilit juniper]

It really is, it’s stupidly easy to pull off

[thin mantle]

It’s funny that you think that isn’t an accurate description of how pounce functions…..

[golden coral]

Because it kind of is. Similar to the lunge, if not as bad. But in general, both of those mechanics have the same main issue. There is no mechanical counter. The best way to counter a utah = stand next to tree or rock. The best way to counter deino = drink from shallow spots.

[tight cove]

i admit it is a bit easier to use and way more reliable, but its not THAT easy.

[twilit juniper]

Lemme friend you and let you join my test server that I’m hosting for me and my friends to test pounce brokenness once and for all and you’ll see how easy it is (in 1-2 days)

[thin mantle]

You’re the most agile animal in the game, the second fastest animal in game, and your stam pool and regen is titanic….if you’re EVER missing a pounce during a fight just give up playing Utah….it’s seriously that easy

[twilit juniper]

^

[tight cove]

theres legit ways to bait and dodge a pounce 💀

[twilit juniper]

Especially on a standing target ^

[twilit juniper]

But If we’re talking about carnos, you can’t rlly do much moving around and dodging to save your own life.. or you die anyway

Yeah there are ways to dodge but it’s not reliable

[tight cove]

also im hearing ppl want to increase the pounce recovery even more.

[golden coral]

And I disagree that terrain should be the main counter to a playables mechanics. Terrain is all good to use, to work with your strength (like having fall resistance, so you can run in a dangerous area) and similar stuff. Or to use terrain to block access if you're outnumbered and otherwise surrounded. But I don't believe terrain should be the primary counter to a mechanic. Lunge is the greatest offender to this, but pounce due to bucking just being "delayed death" is similar. You can juke a pachy easier than a utah for example. (though the pachy tap ram is a bit strange perhaps as well).

[thin mantle]

Which only work if the Utah activates the pounce from a significant distance instead of running right next to the animal and tapping RMB, because remember, point blank pouncing works now…

[tight cove]

true cant deny that

[golden coral]

Yes, because currently there isn't really a punishment at all. I think pachy and utah should have the same punishment on miss, it seems fair to me.

[thin mantle]

And again, you’d have to be an absolute fool not to use point blank pouncing as it’s objectively better than distance pouncing in every metric

[golden coral]

Except if you're crouching and ambushing

[twilit juniper]

True that.. I had a Utah right under my carno feet and it pressed pounce and landed it.. wanted to uninstall but I love this game in a way

[golden coral]

Cause extra distance go brr, and allows you to land hits quite well if you can measure your trajectory

[thin mantle]

There’s no need for additional distance when you run faster than you can pounce

[twilit juniper]

^ this ^, and also if you can predict where the Dino is gonna go or turn as a Utah, even easier pounce..

[thin mantle]

Like seriously the only context distanced pouncing is useful in is for parkour

[golden coral]

True, I just like to ambush proper :p

[thin mantle]

Yeah, unfortunately the game disagrees with you

I hate that it does, ambushing is fun

[twilit juniper]

I just hope a hot fix or patch fix comes out soonish

[golden coral]

I mean, I imagine a utah pack that actually utilizes decoys, tricks, and proper ambushing would be absolutely terrifying for anything they choose to target.

[twilit juniper]

Before up6 kicks off Atleast

[golden coral]

But so far I've yet to meet a pack that actually does the JP roleplay, so maybe they're not into it :p

[thin mantle]

Oh undoubtedly, they just never do because it’s never necessitated

[golden coral]

Though considering how the pounce effectiveness multiplies massively if you pounce with more than one utah at the same time, I'm surprised that's not the most common tactic really

[thin mantle]

It’s mainly because setup isn’t necessary to execute that, just run up at the same time and multipounce the target

[golden coral]

@twilit juniperYou should test that. Have one utah do a full bucked pounce on something then have as many as can fit on do it. Buck in both cases until the utahs gets off. See if there is any difference in how much bleed damage is taken.

[golden coral]

True but they don't tend to do that either honestly

[thin mantle]

Which is just emblematic of how low the skill floor for the animal has gotten to perform it’s most challenging feats

[twilit juniper]

Interesting, I will do, I’m trying to gather as many encounter ideas as possible. (I did host 2 days ago and found out that a walking carno is left with 49% blood with no food, water and Stam, after 1 full bucked pounce. But if it has full stam, water and food, it’s only 78% with full buck. So that was very interesting to see)

Apparently food water and stam impacts MASSIVELY

[thin mantle]

Stam especially but so do food and water

[twilit juniper]

Yeah,
And I never knew before I accidentally tested it. Might mention it in my next Utah feedback post after I do more testing on more important things

[thin mantle]

Mhm, that’s especially important to note as pounce is necessarily a stamina draining attack. So not only can you bait stam out of a target, but they’ll lose 10-20% of their stam trying to get you off them

[twilit juniper]

Aka test stacking? I’m pretty sure bleed and pounces definitely stacks

[golden coral]

That sounds like a rather high blood loss for having full food and water and stam. Bleed is overtuned, and/or buck undertuned, to say the least. And yes, food and water and stam, and health, impacts very much. And yes, it stacks, I'm more so curious how much. You should also test out the whole losing stamina even without bucking if you move while being pounced. (because that certainly doesn't make pounce any less powerful... why someone thought that was a good idea is beyond me, but then someone also thought carno needed a nerf).

[twilit juniper]

A Utah pouncing you without buck drains ur stam? 0-0 but will do too. I’m screenshotting ur messages so I remember u and remember what I can test along with my own curiousities

I can’t wait to debunk all the people who think Utah pounce is “hard” to land. (Hopefully). Imma pounce every Dino on every angle and see if it teleports in every scenario

I love doing isle testing and it’s brokenness. It’s cheap too, I think more people should do it. (Like 3-4 euros for a server for 3 and a half days on GPortal)

[golden coral]

It does if you move at least, or so I've heard. So walk, trot, and you lose stam. Standing still might not cost you anything but well, if you're just standing there, then every other utah can just pile on without any issue what so ever.

[thin mantle]

Should be rather effortless! Looking forward to the results👏

[golden coral]

So not sure that is much of a viable idea, especially if you're supposed to run to terrain to use that. Unless you just live your life next to a tree or rock I guess. Just like how you live near a shallow water spot and ignores deinos entirely.

Also I want in on the testing!

[twilit juniper]

Damn 0-0 ig soon we’ll know for sure. That seems like it shouldn’t be like that

[twilit juniper]

❤️ Dm me for ur name to be on my recents list and I’ll send u the vid evidence or info u on how it goes

[golden coral]

I've rarely if ever had an issue landing pounce, not back then, and not recently. So should be interesting to see if I can still time and aim my pounces or not. Maybe it's honestly harder now for me, I seem to have done well when I had to calculate the distance (so many other utahs pounced when they came within range, apparently me crouching and looking at them coming close did not ring any alarm bells at all)

[twilit juniper]

I can Dm my partner tomorrow to ask if they’ll allow more people in there ^^’ (can’t ask rn cause it’s 3am and he’s asleep)

[thin mantle]

On it!

[hasty coyote]

I have done that on a smaller scale if I understand what you're asking. 2 utahs pouncing a carno at once does roughly the same as 2x 1 pounce

[twilit juniper]

The same as 2x 1 pounce? What do you mean

[golden coral]

Hm. That's strange, maybe it has been changed then, for some reason. Because I'm sure at least earlier, double pouncing was way better than two pounces after each other.

Would probably be good to test again, just to be sure.

[hasty coyote]

say 1 pounce does 25%. a double pounce would do roughly 50%

[hasty coyote]

I did it when i was testing the bleed numbers for pachy and carno at the start of U5. Seems I didn't record the exact damage I took tho (from double pounce)

[keen plover]

People honestly think utah is fine 💀

[half girder]

legacy mindset

[gusty viper]

bruh i accedently pressed accept on the balance discusstion tab, now i gottta wait 6 hours

☠️

[dusky surge]

I think utah needs minor nerfs and its competition buffs, specifically pachy and carno

[keen plover]

Pretty much

[cursive flare]

Utah is not broken, yeah the pounce magnet needs a change but people run when a utah pounces them and thats their problem

You should just crouch and if the utah tries for a pounce just go next to a tree

Utah is a glass cannon

[keen plover]

That's its only current weakness. It's a glass cannon, yeah. Other than that, what else is Utahs weakness?

[cursive flare]

When a utah pounces you it takes a big jump after its done, use it to your advantage and throw him in the water or off a cliff so it breaks its legs or dies

[dusky surge]

entirely environment based

[keen plover]

Ok. However, most of the diet spawns are in the open. Where you will most likely be. What then?

[small herald]

He has no answer cause he is a Utah main. Lol

[austere token]

i agree, utah is broken.

[tulip pond]

Not really

[alpine plover]

@harsh jetty Punch, you guys really have to respond to the huge imbalance in the game with Utahs atm. You guys aren't saying anything or sharing any thoughts on where it's at.

They can out turn, out run, out wait, out bleed, out eat, everything on the server and they grow in an hour.

If you haven't noticed the huge amounts of conversation going on and complaints in the balance section.

[golden coral]

I don't think Punch is the right guy to talk to in this case. I'm sure there'll be balance revisions in the future, but for now we're probably stuck. For some reason, smaller balance patches more often isn't really that common.

[alpine plover]

Carnos have very little chance against a Utah unless the carno surprises it. I mean. I just soloed ANOTHER carno and I'm not even good. If the Utah understands Stamina usage, which you will if you're just an average experienced player, you will win.

The carno simply cannot catch a Utah. It has zero ability to catch it. I mean, I just simply out-turn it, bleed it for 3 seconds and wait around, and I mean it's way too easy. I'm not even playing carno anymore because of it.

On top of this, I noticed I could fairly easily avoid his bites If I made a mistake by just doing a quick bounce and I teleport onto his side out of bite range I just used the crap out of that. He only bit me once out of 5 - 10 minutes. I got stuck on a tree, turned around, he went to alt bite, I pounced through his bite, he missed the alt bite, and I got a quick pounce in for more bleeding. That was crazy. This was directly from his front, I was in his face and teleported to his side.

[alpine plover]

• No pouncing except directly from the side of the dino.
• Reduce bleed rate of Utah pounce across the board 15% or so
• Reduce activity rate increasing bleed by 15% or so
• Slightly increase carno stamina 10% or so
• Slightly decrease carno metabolism 15% or so
• Slightly reduce Utah turn rate by 5% or so causing a mini slide
• Increase Utah missed pounce. 30% or so

We just need some slight changes, and I am just taking ballpark guesses on this stuff, but we just need some things slightly change to make them more tolerable.

[golden coral]

I hope you only intend for one of those changes at a time, or possibly two, but not more. Otherwise you're making the same mistake most balance patches has done so far in this game.

[alpine plover]

Those only affect one dino and you simply add QOL of changes to the Carno.

[golden coral]

Even so, you're changing too much at the same time if you'd do all of that. Even changing the pounce mechanic might be all that's really needed. Aside from the carno metabolism since that's a thing of it's own more or less.

You might not need to change bleed rate, or bleed out rate or mess with utahs movement if you just fixed the pounce mechanic and increased the punishment on miss a slight bit.

But doing all of it, is going to turn utah imbalanced the other way around most likely, so that's not a good idea.

[alpine plover]

Carno struggles on escape range from packs of Utah. I play both and it's frustrating.

Activity bleed rate for all dinos is very high except stego, at least when dealing with the Utah. Mean it's a death sentence. Lowering slightly makes it still deadly, but just a slightly better chance of possibly surviving.

Utah turns WAY too quick to the point it doesn't make much logical sense. It turns on a literal dime. It needs to be ever so slightly nerfed to make an implementation of a consequence for not timing turns correctly. There is none right now.

Utah gets up from the pounce WAY too quickly, making the stun effectively useless.

[golden coral]

The stun on miss I will grant you, it could be increased to be like pachy miss. The turning I think is fine for utah, as is probably the bleed rate (especially if you revert the carno nerfs, which I think they should try out at the least). But if you fixed the pounce mechanic as it were, then you'd have a properly hard to land pounce, with more risk, and that'd probably make the bleed rate and all that work just fine.

That's why it's a bad idea to change too much at the same time. They both fixed the pounce, and nerfed carno, without trying with only a fixed pounce first to see how that went. And here we are, with carnos possibly struggling a bit more than they should vs utahs.

The main reason utah is so lethal is the combination of high bleed and ease of use and safety with the pounce. Changing one is most likely needed, but not both.

[alpine plover]

I have to disagree on the bleed rate, I mean it's like they Knick an artery every time they pounce and you walk. The amount of bleeding is massively illogical, I know it's a game, but you still have to implement logic into things. It's just too fast for the size of the creature they're attacking.

The solution is to stand and limit walking .. but you're still bleeding while they watch you bleed and decent utahs will do just that. The other solution is the run, then you definitely die. There's no way to win. But if you wait too long, you're now at half bleed and losing all your stamina regen. So they've been resting while you're limiting spring to negate bleeding. It doesn't work.

[golden coral]

Hence why I said revert carno nerf on the bleed rate/resistance, and see if that is enough to make it better. The others I don't know how well they do, but that's another issue if they also struggle.

But changing everything overall at the same time is a bad idea.

[alpine plover]

Right now, I dare to say the utah is game-breaking and I've been playing for like 5 years or longer on and off, I never have been so frustrated with the balance personally. It's probably due to the lack of dinos to play.

[golden coral]

That's no doubt part of it, though utahs seem to be a problem for every playable, for some reason.

Well, except the deino and ptera because biome invincibility.

[neon willow]

I agree this is a huge amount of changes, when small change can radically change balance (if you've got a scale and the left side weighs 15 lb, and the right side weighs 15.5 lb, removing 0.5 from the right and adding 0.5 to the left still results in a balance problem). I'm not necessarily opposed to all of these, but they should be adjusted one at a time to avoid a pendulum effect.

That being said-- given that Utah is designed around a glass cannon philosophy, let's play into the strengths and weaknesses of that build.

1. we need to fix the magnetic pounce, for obvious reasons. Utah shouldn't be immune to bite attacks during mount if it pounced the front and teleports to the side. This will help non-utahs land hits and make Utah's more cautious about pouncing
2. bucking stam usage needs to be reduced. Why punish players with heavily reduced stam AND reduced stam Regen (due to pounce bleed)? It's not really working as a counter to pounce atm.
3. unrelated to Utah/carno balance, but carno really needs a slight hunger buff. They are literally bottomless pits right now... It's a little ridiculous.

We should start with that, and see what happens to balance. Then slightly buff JUST carno's bleed resist if still needed. Pachy's issue isn't one of bleed, but rather damage it deals. Teno and stego have pretty decent bleed pools

[unborn iris]

There is no way you're soloing a carno with half a brain as a utah.

[strange rivet]

i agree that the pounce shouldnt be magnetic to the point of being immune to hits, but they should still be able to pounce from the front or back. In a classic chase, most predators catch their running preys from behind. Maybe not by the tail, though.

They should not nerf the miss stun. It was one of the main points of complaint before. No animal really stay on the ground long when they trip or fall, and it would be a detriment to the fluidity of the game, especially for an agile predator.

I would rather make the Utah weaker than clumsier and more awkward. I would also rather make other dinosaur's attacks more fluid and smooth too.

i dislike when any of the dinos have weird momentum

[errant plinth]

honestly the whole pouncing issue could be solved by both not making it magnetic and maybe giving carno and large predators going forward a back kick to deal with annoying assriders

and carno is absolutely leggy enough to kick things

[strange rivet]

i don't logically see a carno kick behind when it is running on two legs

[errant plinth]

it seems lithe enough to where it could at least to a stationary back kick

[strange rivet]

wouldnt alt bite be better when stationary?

[errant plinth]

possibly but damn that windup is something

[strange rivet]

yeah like i said it could be more fluid, and could maybe get a better hitbox. What i mainly wish for it though is a greater stamina and hunger pool

[errant plinth]

i like the PoT tail swiping ideas for big carnivores but also idk if carnos tail is that mobile

imo though carno vs utah interaction should really be a pack of at least 3 utahs wins against a carno pretty much hands down and a lone carno vs a lone utah should never end in a kill if the carno even puts in at least some effort unless the utah is some sort of god and the carno an idiot

[strange rivet]

i miss the small swipe of moving stegos from legacy. Since i'm on Evrima, i've always found it weird how the stego has to stop to hit, and how the tail moves like an estoc instead of a swing

[errant plinth]

stego should have a quick swing like in legacy honestly, but i do agree with calls that it should be curtains if anything bigger than an adult utah gets a couple decent headshots, and a deino if it gets that perfect ambush on the head of a stego it should kill.

but also equally if you're targeting the back of a stego you deserve to be a tail ornament

attacking the flanks would yield the same odds of success as right now, still weighted in the favor of the big nasty banner backed creature with spikes on its tail, but if you plan things out you might win if you play your cards right instead of just tar pitting an adult stego with like 10 raptors

[golden coral]

Utah has the speed to run up besides a target (especially since it should favour bigger and this slower targets at that), and the agility to move around said targets too. So no, from behind/on tail and from front/head and maybe neck, shouldn't be a thing. Use your pack, distract the prey, move in on the flanks, and so on. And they should nerf the miss stun, since now it's too short. Yes, people complained, but mostly this was due to pounce not being reliable, rather than the punishment for missing. Now that pounce is reliable, too reliable even, there's no reason it should be almost perfectly safe to use. Giving utah the same time as pachy on their respective special ability miss should be fine.

You can't really make utah "weaker", it's already a small tier and rather fragile one at that. And I do agree that making it clumsier and so is the wrong way to go, the best thing to do is to just make the pounce require actual planning and ability to use, rather than what it is right now.

[unborn iris]

Agreed.

[golden coral]

The issue there is that deino should not have that biteforce, and making stego head even weaker affects all the other matchups too. I imagine it'd be easier and better for proper land predators to handle a stego, deino isn't really capable of moving around on land, and due to mechanic, doesn't get to just bite stuff to death. Also attacking the flanks of a stego or anky sounds like a terrible idea for most things really.

[strange rivet]

I agree that utah and pachy should have more or less the same stun time for a miss. Buff pachy's instead of nerfing the utah's.

I agreed already that they shouldnt be totally immune to attacks, and that tip of the tail shouldn't count, but it's not logic however that they shouldnt be able to attack from all direction just because they are able to outrun some dinos...

It's easy to make it weaker. I meant it in the offensive sense aka reducing their bleed and maybe even the bite force.

[errant plinth]

less of a terrible idea going against stego because it isnt armored, but yeah i do think the devs need to either temporarily balance it for the current roster or just remove it until apexes are ready and work on adding in kentro

[dusky surge]

stego is balanced for the roster as long as deino is around

[golden coral]

Pretty much, anky has armor and some reach, while stego "only" has reach, and maybe a bit more flexibility/mobility (at least I imagine anky would be even more "stationary" than a stego, but then we do have an odd anky so maybe not). And I wouldn't mind if we replaced stego with kentro. As for balancing, that could be done, but it'd have to be applied to deino as well. I doubt having a predator that can oneshot anything in the roster and remain basically untouched on land at that would be any more fun for the rest of the playerbase. But given a downsized deino to 4T, you could then downsize stego similarily, keeping their interaction more or less the same (with stego keeping deinos from moving around freely) while making them both more vunerable to the rest of the roster.

But then, balacing for current roster, or balance "properly" for what the critters are supposed to be is somewhat divisive I think. People have argued for either choice far as I know.

[dreamy fiber]

Fyi: the utah isn't immune while pouncing. It's pretty common for them to be hit when they latch a pounce face to face with a Carno but also to succeed. Might be desync, but it happens plenty.

[azure crescent]

so...remove deino and replace stego with trike? maybe also replace deino with sucho?

[ocean sentinel]

Sucho wouldn't really make players fear the water like Deino does.

Could just cut Deino's weight in half for the time being.

Actually if you added trike, it might be able to keep Deino in check just as well as Stego.

Though either way, taking any member of the roster away is probably going to result in backlash.

[dusky surge]

why remove deino? why replace stego with something even bigger?

[azure crescent]

valid

[dusky surge]

issue is

you add trike and now you have an EVEN BIGGER apex

with absolutely no contest

so now what? What do we get to kill trike?

Unless it's consistently felled by coordinated utahs

[ocean sentinel]

The idea is that trike doesn't have flank protection, so Utah's would be able to counter it better

Alternatively rather than just replacing roster member, they could just prioritize adding another large carnivore to help balance out Stego and Deino.

[azure crescent]

Trike is more vulnerable to utahs rather than stego.

And i realized that removing deino isn't that great of an idea, apologies

[dusky surge]

i mean, then you need to slap in either rex, giga or spino as a "moderator"

trike may have less flank defence, but it has more health

LOTS more health

not only that, but a misplaced pounce on a trike can INSTANTLY kill a utah from what we've seen

[azure crescent]

The thing is, trike being in instead of stego means that utah would be balanced around prey that it actually SHOULD kill, instead of being balanced around prey that it shouldn't, like stego.

It would make "natural" selection for utahs be more noticeable, as most of the large packs would be actually more coordinated, and not just congregations that pile on top of random animals.

Also misplaced pounces being dangerous is good, for the reason that i have stated.

[ocean sentinel]

Rather than taking away a roster member from the game and replace it with another, they could just add another. Maybe Acro? Same weight as Stego, though less damage output, but with it's mobility and the option of pack hunting it could easily threaten Stegos.

[azure crescent]

It would make the bad utahs die, and thus be rarer, and allow the more skilled ones to thrive.

[azure crescent]

I suppose something like 3 acros could be a threat to a stego.

honestly i love the idea of acro just ganging up on apexes in pairs or trios

[ocean sentinel]

Acro packs could also deal with land Deinos.

[azure crescent]

True

[ocean sentinel]

And it would have a reason to hunt them other than boredom.

[errant plinth]

this is all considerably more complicated than just removing the near invincible when adult stego and just adding in the kentro if theyre not going to make it to where deino can relatively consistently kill adult stegos at the very least in pairs vs a lone stego

[ocean sentinel]

I'm hoping they'll eventually give Deino a tug of war mechanic for dealing with animals larger than 4 tons.

While I don't think Stego should be Deino fodder, I think it would be nice if Deino could successful hunt Stego maybe 30-40% of the time if they encounter each other on the river side, with Deino still in the water. That should make Deino enough of a threat for Stegos to respect it's space as long as it's in the water, without Deino just being able to go around wrecking Stegos all it wants

[frail bobcat]

@fiery ruin what you mean by "the prey can still attack"?

[fiery ruin]

Well In early evrima when u pounced somethings head or tail they could bite or use it’s tail to attack so an unskilled Utah would probably die if it pounced somethings head or tail but it would do a lot of damage so a skilled one could use it to do tons of damage

[frail bobcat]

That would make it useless to pounce heads

[errant plinth]

i dont think it should be fodder i think it should be possible, right now it isnt unless people tarpit the stego with raptors or a bunch of carnos or theres like 4 deinos, if not an instant kill cause i understand that is realistic but that would be very unfun i do think a perfect deino ambush that hits the head from the water should do a large chunk of damage with a slight chance at a head fracture, not an instakill if you're at least half health as an adult or a 75% but absolutely incentive to not just carelessly approach the water from open sight lines where a deino has a clear view of your silhouette to where it can target your vulnerable pinhead. but if the deino presses the issue on land it should get absolutely rinsed because the land is the stegos territory.

[hasty coyote]

One thing I find really odd is that when a utah falls off from pounce, it gets stunned for 5 seconds. But a knockdown lasts like 3 seconds. That means if a utah fall off, and a pachy bashes it, it could actually lower the total stun time.

[unborn iris]

Why do people think you can't get hit while pouncing something in the face?

[golden coral]

Probably because while you can get hit, it doesn't do anything really. Unless the damage is enough to kill, the utah still get the pounce perfectly fine. (Unless maybe if some attacks override the pounce, but I'm not sure any does?).

[unborn iris]

It doesn't override the pounce, but a a bite from a carno or an alt bite from a teno to the head is a lot of damage. I would trade a pounce for doing over half of the utahs health.

[golden coral]

Meanwhile I would most likely trade that health for the guaranteed pounce, especially if I had a pack, since there's little to no reason not being able to get out safely, so I'm not worried that teno or even carno would actually get me afterwards. Guess it depends a bit on how confident you are in the given situation as the utah.

[hasty coyote]

I know pachy's alt and ram override it. Maybe tail slam too, but I'm pretty sure kick has too small hitbox to override, they hit the base of the tail first

[small herald]

@hasty coyote I’ve heard utahs make their hurt noise when I tailslam them as a teno and their pounce stil lands

[hasty coyote]

odd, guess pachy is the only one with priority.

[golden coral]

Alright, good to know. I guess it only works if the attacks do knockdown or something useful. Not sure on teno tail, could be that since pachy overrides it (if that's still a thing, not sure either, but it used to), it's on the same "level" as the pounce and then if pounce is activated before the slam lands, it takes priority there.

[dawn sand]

Nah Erik is dead right saying that it's much more favorable to trade the damage for the pounce, it benefits Utah waaay to much, id know because I've done it lol. I'm genuinely convinced that the only people who don't want Utahs current pounce dialed back at all, are the ones who play Utah 24/7

[candid turret]

So for the people that disagree with Deino getting a buff please let me know why, because if you haven't spent 6 hours growing it with someone only for you both to get killed by a single stego, then I don't understand your reasoning? Is it because they can kill low and mid tier dinos? An apex is supposed to be able to, but Deino currently feels more like the Apex of Mid Tier dinos, also if you look it up Deino should bite harder then Rex.

[somber sphinx]

Because deino isn’t supposed to go after apexes, it’s a punch down dino and is supposed to go after mid tiers instead of apexes

And if you give deino a pretty strong bite then what’s the point of lunge

[candid turret]

Yes but in a confrontation with an Apex which could happen, it has a stronger bite force then rex, it shouldn't be as slow as it is, and it shouldn't be getting destroyed by stegos, yes it's supposed to kill mid tiers, but it should be able to stand up to an Apex or at least defend itself.

[candid turret]

And you give it a strong bite because it should have already had one

[somber sphinx]

Then what’s the point of lunge if it can just bite and kill things?

[candid turret]

The lunge is for ambush out of water the bite is for when being confronted by something on land is what the point is.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah but if you give it a strong bite then people would treat it as “water rex” and wouldn’t bother lunging and just bite

[candid turret]

It's supposed to bite harder then the rex, I don't understand what's hard to believe about that, it literally has a stronger PSI bite force then rex.

[somber sphinx]

Realism < balance. Yeah it had one of the strongest if not the strongest bite but does it need to have it in the isle for balance reasons

[candid turret]

Yes it does because 3 v 1 stego shouldn't be in the stegos favor.

[somber sphinx]

…bruh 2 deinos can kill a stego so 3 failing to kill one is skill issue

[candid turret]

It shouldn't take 2 is the issue I'm having.

[somber sphinx]

It shouldn’t go after apexes, like I said it’s a punch down animal and hunts mid tiers not apexes

[candid turret]

It should be able to defend itself against apexes, and if I'm wrong about them being weaker then they should be then why do stegos walk to water on official just to kill adult deinos?

[slim dragon]

Biteforce =/= bite damage
Compare a shark's bite and a croc's bite

[candid turret]

Can you explain this better please.

[slim dragon]

Crocs have a biteforce much, much higher than sharks. Yet a shark's bite is much more devastating than a croc's bite. While a croc might break some bones or tear off a limb, shark bites literally shred their prey into pieces.

[candid turret]

Sharks are also larger, and swim better, and have a full mouth of serrated rows of teeth, and this comparison seems drastically unfair.

Are we adding megalodon to isle?

[slim dragon]

I don't see how relevant swim speed is when comparing two animals' biteforce

Also sharks aren't larger, I think the biggest crocodile, the Nile Croc, is roughly the same size as a great white

[candid turret]

Most the "destruction" is from the speed at which they hit the target as well, if you've ever seen a shark hunt it doesn't slowly swim up and bite something, it goes full speed and slams it into its mouth like throwing a ball into a woodchipper.

[slim dragon]

Yes so you understand it's not just a matter of biteforce. It's a matter of wether something's bite is designed to hurt or not. Deino's bite isn't designed to hurt things, it's designed to grab and hold.

[candid turret]

Therefore should it not be able to lunge bite a stego and I dont know break its bones or something without getting smacked to death in 8 quick hits? Because I don't know if you've seen stegos back up into the water and just start swinging on official but I have.

Even in its own environment the Deino is losing to stuff it shouldn't be losing to.

[slim dragon]

It can't because there is no tug-of-war mechanic yet. So it's either grab and carry like it weighs nothing, either don't grab. And for obvious balance reasons devs chose the "don't grab" option.

[candid turret]

I dont understand, so Deino shouldn't be able to defend itself against stego because it can't grab it?

So water and land shouldn't be safe for a Deino if a stego is around?

[slim dragon]

Upping it's biteforce doesn't just change the matchup against stego. It would also make lunge redundant.

[slim dragon]

Land definitely shouldn't. And water is safe since stegos can't use their tails while swimming.

[candid turret]

I've never once seen a stego swim, I've seen them dip halfway into the water backwards and start killing adult and juvie deinos

Know why they do that? Because there is no consequence.

[slim dragon]

They only kill the deinos who don't know they can swim away

[candid turret]

I shouldn't have to swim away

Water is supposed to be safe for Deino.

[frail bobcat]

It is

Except for other deinos

[slim dragon]

It is
Every part of water that is outside of a standing stego's tail jab range is safe

[candid turret]

Oh? So I should have to hide in a corner to keep from dying in water to a stego? Nice.

[slim dragon]

Yeah that's what happen when you're playing the most oppressive animal in the roster with only 1 bad matchup and who is 100% invulnerable to everything else except its own kind. You can't expect to be winning 100% of the time.

[candid turret]

I can however expect to be able to defend myself no?

[clever dirge]

The way to defend as Deino in water is simple. Swim away and keep your distance

[slim dragon]

You can
2 deinos who know what they're doing can kill a stego without either one dying

[candid turret]

If that were true why have I never seen a stego die to deino in official? Everyone in official is bad then correct with that logic?

[slim dragon]

Precisely

[frail bobcat]

And you also said its gonna be ambushing rex. It wont. Its the apex made to ambush everything below 4 tons

[candid turret]

Why?

[frail bobcat]

Because it has a ambush that instakills everything below 4 tons

[candid turret]

So it should be useless against everything else? That's not an Apex then

[slim dragon]

Why can't the big gator instakill everything in the roster including other apexes ? Is that your question ?

[candid turret]

Why can't it defend itself against other apex is the question

[slim dragon]

Because it's a water ambusher
Not a water-to-land brawler

[frail bobcat]

Its not supposed to hunt stegos (and rexs if you mean that)

[candid turret]

No no I mean why can't I be safe in water and be intimidating enough for stegos not to wanna just back in and start swinging without any worry?

[frail bobcat]

You can just leave

[candid turret]

You do realize they go on land and water correct? Therefore it should be able to handle itself decently on both not just one.

[frail bobcat]

Its the same argument as saying that ptera is not safe in the air cause other playables can jump

[slim dragon]

Nah
By that logic Utah should be able to defend itself in the water because it can go there

[frail bobcat]

They hunt from the water

[candid turret]

Oh I didn't realize that other playable can jump that high

[faint harbor]

If Stego is just meant to be stronger than Deino, then why does Stego fall under Deino's diet? I can see what you're saying with Deino's meant to be hunting mid-tiers and not Apexes, but as it stands right now, a Stego can 8 hit kill a Deino, and a Deino takes 12 hits to kill a Stego. To add to that, Stego just attacks much faster than Deino. Stego's are also capable of getting right up against water and hitting Deino's while they're in water, leaving that so-called safe space that Deino's have as only safe at the deepest sections. If we're to also look at how Deino's are right now compared to how Rex or Giga may look in the future, Deino can't even really be considered an Apex. Deino is far too underpowered to be an Apex if it's purpose is to only hunt mid-tiers. It may as well be considered a river Acro at that point.
Some of my math may not be perfectly correct there, but I'm rough-guessing off of numbers that I remember

[frail bobcat]

I didnt realise stego hits cover entire rivers in width

[candid turret]

It doesn't dwell in water does it? You misunderstood what I said it seems.

[slim dragon]

1.Because diets are stupid rn
2.Stego deos'nt attack faster than deino

[candid turret]

It does actually.

Have you two played deino and stego?

[slim dragon]

Utah doesn't do well in the water just like deino doesn't do well on land. That why it's called a water animal.

[frail bobcat]

Its a apex that specialises in killing smaller animals

[slim dragon]

Yes but I got bored of both pretty quickly

[candid turret]

So what you're saying is you didn't play either long enough to understand differences in abilities?

[frail bobcat]

The devs have stated that its apex

[candid turret]

Or that one swings faster then the other?

[slim dragon]

no

[somber sphinx]

More of an apex in its enviroment (which is water)

[faint harbor]

If diets are so "stupid" as you've called them, then why do the Devs seem intent on adding more features to it without fine-tuning what it is now?
I may be eyeballing it based off of how it feels but I'm definitely happy to go play around with it some more and make sure.

[frail bobcat]

Which counts

[slim dragon]

They're not fine-tuning them they're redoing them
For the better it seems so far

[faint harbor]

But it doesn't feel like an Apex. You can say something's an Apex all you like, but if something doesn't feel like what it's made out to be than you lose player count and then you could have a wasted asset. I don't think what's being discussed is that Deino needs a massive strength buff. Just that it could use a little bit of love. Stego on the other hand, I will continue to say that it feels a bit too strong. I can't imagine that Stego is meant to be an Apex as Trike will likely be much stronger and much tankier. I think the way that Stego stats are in Legacy is actually a decent metric to aim for with Legacy. It's not too weak, it can still injure an Apex and most mid-tiers are afraid/intimidated by it, knowing that it hits so hard. But it's not this giant beast that feels insurmountable. Maybe Stego will fall off with the addition of more dinos like Allo, or Giga, but we can only speculate at that. Right now, as the game stands, I do believe that Stego is a little over tuned.

[frail bobcat]

Stego is a apex, it aint just injure other apexes

[faint harbor]

Are you referring to Legacy in this answer? Or Evrima?

[frail bobcat]

Evrima

[slim dragon]

According to the deino population people seem pretty happy with it
Also stego is gonna need a buff once actual apexes come or it's gonna be fodder, injuring an apex isn't enough in order to not get eaten

[frail bobcat]

Unpopular opinion: stego is balanced, it just needs a good competitor on land (gib allo)

[frail bobcat]

Gib stego 7 tons

[slim dragon]

Walking swing
So it can walk away while puncturing its predators (and only expose its back to bites)

[frail bobcat]

The walking swing needs to be weaker then

[slim dragon]

ofc

Also AoE damage when ?

More baby-killing potential
Imagine a stego killing its entire family in one swing trying to get a single utah

[faint harbor]

Okay but that's just how natural selection works. Everything needs it's predator except the top of the food chain. In a realism sense, only the strongest Herbivores would be left alone, sauropods or ceratopsians would be less threatened, but some things, like Stego, would be at risk of being consumed by larger Carnivores. There's only so much that Stego can do when it's alone. That's why Herbi's are herd creatures. Safety in numbers, thus less risk of being eaten by Apexes.

[slim dragon]

balance>realism

If stego can't survive alone it can't survive at all

[faint harbor]

I genuinely think that's the wrong attitude to have with a game such as The Isle. Yes, I do agree, balance is necessary, but the audience it applies to also wants a degree of realism. Balance>Realism is how we ended up with Legacy and all of its bugs and exploits. In realism, everything balances out in the food chain. That's how I think it should be with The Isle as well. Everything will balance out as long as everything is done right. Sure you can balance things until it feels just right, but in the game-state of Evrima right now, you can't just balance something and leave it there. You have to be constantly balancing things around other things in the game as well as balance it around the new additions. It's not a one-size fits all.

[slim dragon]

Legacy wasn't balanced in the slightest
So tell me, how do you balance a creature that cannot survive alone in this videogame ?

How are you gonna herd up with other people if other people die because they can't survive alone before you meet them ?

How are you gonna survive 6+hours to reach adulthood as something that can't defend itself from predators nor run away ?

And what's gonna happen to your herd of 4 miraculous survivors when a pack of 4 carnivores show up ? Cause carnivores pack-hunting is realistic too

Why would anyone want to play something that relies on luck and trusting other people to simply be able to play ?

[faint harbor]

But that's just it. Living relies on a combination of luck and skill. Obviously as the game goes on there will be players who discover the best locations to grow. Obviously those are bound to change or be different per dino, but that same generalized logic applies.

[slim dragon]

So screw balance, and screw players who want to enjoy their game I guess ?

[faint harbor]

So when you add to that your 4 "miraculous survivors" vs those 4 carnivores, sure you lose a herbi along the way, but that's just part of the game. You die, you regrow, you die again, you regrow again. You can't balance a game around living forever. You're going to die. That's just how it is.

That's not saying "screw balance" and "screw players who want to enjoy the game", that's just how the game works. You can't avoid dying. If that's the goal here, then just give everyone god-mode or make The Isle permanently sandbox.

[slim dragon]

If none of you can kill a single carnivore in a fight you don't lose one of them you lose all
And that's not a good game experience to have everything ruined because a carnivore saw you, a masive combat oriented 6-ton herbivore

[candid turret]

Nope, balance means that some Herbis can't survive alone it's just not plausible, some Carnis can't survive alone either, packs and herds are for the ones that need others, so if a herd of Stegos can pretty much run the map how does that make it fair for the carnis even if they're in a pack they all die?

[slim dragon]

I don't see where you're going, everything in the game (except maybe Hypsi) is viable solo right now.

[faint harbor]

But that's not how herbivores work. They aren't combat oriented. They never have been they never should be. They're meant to be defensive. They aren't supposed to be going out of their way to hunt carnivores because there's no benefit to it.

[candid turret]

Then what it sounds like to me balance is off entirely.

[slim dragon]

Eat grass and die moment
You clearly haven't played real life a lot

[somber sphinx]

Buffalo, zebra, moose, rhinos, elephants and hippos wants a talk with you

[faint harbor]

Those are niche examples that apply to their habitats specifically and not quite in a general sense.

[faint harbor]

Welcome to herbivores. Eat grass, live, mate, breed, die. That's life. Congratulations.

[alpine plover]

it sounds like you want certain herbis that are essentially walking sacks of meat if they're solo? turning herbis into "dont play this unless you have friends" will kill their population

[slim dragon]

If you didn't get what I meant, I have nothing else to say.

[candid turret]

Oh please I love this, Buffalo run in packs and only defend themselves, Zebra run from predators most the time, rhinos headbutt everything and don't run in large herds because they can't hardly see, moose don't run in large herds either and are normally hunted by packs of wolves or killed by bears, Elephants run in herds but will still back away from predators because they don't want pointless injuries, hippos are aggressive in their own territory even killing their own young they don't really get out of the water so don't worry about predators very much.

[faint harbor]

Good, because you've stopped debating and have gone to insults which isn't constructive towards progress. Have a good day.

[slim dragon]

I haven't gone to insults
Yet I asked you a few questions that you didn't answer

[mental roost]

No, that's the opposite of balance and good game design.. If a playable CANNOT function by itself in a survival game, it is not viable and fundamentally flawed in its balance. There's a distinct difference in terms of being able to survive solo and be stronger in groups vs being solo auto means that you lose right off the bat. This is not a team based game, this is a survival game.

Also what Warden said^
Large herbivores, especially those with weapons; are not free meals and never should be. There's a reason why Magyaorosaurus has become INFAMOUS in the community. Because it is flawed as a playable due to its inability to run or fight back against predators, which is the opposite of balance, and as such; poor design. (or those that just want to meme on it because it's not hard to.. the thing was born to be bullied the moment it was selected as the small sauropod we'd be getting)

[candid turret]

No I want herbis to need herds that are supposed to, and Carnis to need packs that are supposed to, yes some herbis will be walking sacks of meat solo, but some carnis will be punching bags with teeth solo.

[faint harbor]

There's a fine line to find and ride. You have to find that line, which I think is still a work-in-progress. Things will be over tuned and things will be under tuned. That's what game development is, you find that sweet spot where it all just seems to fit together.

[faint harbor]

"You clearly haven't played real life a lot" pretty insulting when you know nothing about me outside of what I've said regarding a video game. But that's not what this channel is for.

[somber sphinx]

Tbh if it goes well I only see alberto and mabye allo being a huge problem to them ||im also going to make a magy suggestion soon and if most of what I wil say gets implemented then it’s fine||

[alpine plover]

is that not the case with the game currently? solo herbis are viable right now, but of course are much much better off in a herd. The only exception is stego which im not even gonna get into because i have no idea what to do with that thing lmao

[candid turret]

Exactly Stego is a beast in most fights and situations currently

[faint harbor]

But that's what we need. We need to get into Stego because it's in such an odd spot right now.

[candid turret]

Add one Stego to a herbi pack and you pretty much are set lmao

[mental roost]

I mean... Carnotaurus also exists, and we've been shown that Cera can be problematic for Magy which.. makes my hopes very mixed on how it'll be. Unlike most slower larger herbivores, it can't fight back nor run away from some of its predators. Utahs will likely also be an issue for Magyaorosaurus for sure.

That's off topic but I'm curious to see your suggestion. Personally, I'd give Magy an invisible cloak, a plasma cannon with a lock on, and mimicry

[faint harbor]

So you want to see a Predator in The Isle? 🤔

[alpine plover]

i just struggle to see any decent solution for it right now with the current roster

[candid turret]

I think personally it should have a sniper rifle, be able to take out predators before they get close.

[somber sphinx]

(but yeah right now that we have no information about it other than it’s concept then I can see why people think this way)

[faint harbor]

Exactly. With the current roster. That's a huge thing to consider with this. It's difficult to balance right now because nothing in the game is meant to be fighting Stego. It doesn't have an equal nor does it have a true predator.

We may not be able to perfectly balance Stego right now, but something needs to be done as a temporary solution because it's just, too strong. Nothing else in the game can stack up against it, which makes fighting Stego discouraging, so you force the Stego players to become pricks and force their way into fights, thus souring the game experience for people who don't want to be fighting Stego because they don't feel like they can do anything against it.

[mental roost]

The Predator if it was a Dwarf Sauropod, yes. That is the only way I can see Magy being viable.

[dawn sand]

I mean I don't find the concept of Utahs being Stego predators too terrible. It makes sense, war of attrition and bleed it out. Sure there will be more efficient predators along the way but it's kinda fine for now

[faint harbor]

It's fine for now, but do you feel like Utahs can hunt Stegos like you're saying? Or do you think that Utahs should be hunting Stegos later in development after they've added more playable options?

[dawn sand]

I mean I've done it with packs prior, it's definitely possible and a fun fight. Whether or not they'll remain Stegos predator down the line is up in the air. Personally I'm for whatever needs to be done for balance purposes so I'm indifferent to it really

Major point for me really is that it doesn't not work by the end of it all

[candid turret]

How many Raptors?

[dawn sand]

2-4

From my experience anyways

Tho Utah definitely needs it's pounce tuned back a bit rn

[candid turret]

So let's say 130 damage each 520 overall not including bleed, that's quite a bit right?

[ocean sentinel]

Stego should be able to fight off Deinosuchus most of the time, but that doesn't mean Deinosuchus should be limited to hunting small prey. Deino, being a water based ambush predator, can't really actively hunt down its prey, at most try to figure out where it will drink or cross and wait. Since Deino has such little control over it's hunting options, it should have a wide variety of possible hunting targets.

[slim dragon]

It has everything below 4-tons
So pretty much everything that isn't an apex

[ocean sentinel]

Most people will be playing apexes when more are available

Sure you can make the growth time arguement, but a lot of cases you can just afk grow somewhere

[slim dragon]

Depends
If smalls are enjoyable, people will play smalls
And apexes will likely be hard to grow, so I assume people will resort to smaller things until they know enough of the game to be able to play an apex

Also if you say deino hasn't enough of a choice because most people plays something above 4 tons then there is a flaw somewhere else in the game

[ocean sentinel]

Hard to grow and time required to grow are not the same thing. Especially in the case of herbivores, which don't need to hunt for food.

[slim dragon]

That's also assuming AI won't make a comeback, but it likely will as Filipe (I think) mentioned

[ocean sentinel]

Just afk grow in a bush near a diet plant and a water source, and only leave to refill on those

Predators will only have a short window to find you

[slim dragon]

That's why I said hard to grow. It's not just a matter of finding food, even for a herbivore

By the time apexes are added I sure hope afk growing won't be a viable mechanic anymore

[ocean sentinel]

We'll see

They got plenty of time to fix it

But as off now I know Deino can be easily grown away from hotspots because I've done it, and I started an attempt with Stego, and as of now it seems easy.

People keep talking about how hard Stego is to grow because some Utahs are bound to find you, but its their fault for spending less than 95% of their time in foilage. Its boring, but if it works, people will do it.

[azure crescent]

Elephants DO NOT back away from predators most of the time, they've killed plenty of people that had a mindset like that unprovoked. Hippos don't worry about predators even OUT of the water, they're just aggressive naturally. Moose aren't normally hunted by wolves or bears, as those avoid moose generally. Moose are just solitary naturally. The buffalo part is true, they mostly just do it in self defense, but they have been known to gang up on lions and wait them out to gore them. And the zebra part is THE WORST one. Zebras sometimes attack predators while running, because there's a little something called kicking with 1 leg. And out of these, zebras are arguably the biggest dickheads. They commit infanticide on other species for no reason.

i see this is another "eat grass and die" moment

[slim dragon]

yes eat grass and die

[frail bobcat]

Average eat grass and die

[candid turret]

First and foremost let's act like I didn't study animal behavior and stuff, yes you are correct about elephants killing predators and people, but most the time they avoid confrontation all together unless it is mating season or if they have a calf (Also it's usually bulls that do the killing), and we will also act like they didn't use wolves to lower the moose population for sure, and that if you look up the predators of moose black bears and wolves don't pop up (also orcas which is a neat little fact) indeed hippos are agressive as I said in their own territory but sense they primarily stay in water they don't worry about much other then another hippo, then back to Buffalo, they do indeed wait to gore a lion IF they can get to tall grass where most of the time they use it to ambush the lion multiple ones running in and out hitting the lion, yes they're also more defensive when they have young around, then we have Zebras yes they have indeed kicked and trampled predators but in case you don't understand most the time it's when escaping a predator, and yes they do indeed commit infanticide primarily on their own species so they can mate with the female who's infant it was, AND MY personal favorite part about Zebras is you said they do it when running in an attempt to escape Zebras will defend themselves shocking, but did you also know the only time they go out of their way to intimidate a full grown lion is if it's alone? They don't just run up on a pride of lions and go "Yeah this'll be fun." And they only commit infanticide on other species is if the "infant" is separated from its parents, so far enough away for a zebra to run in stomp it then run away, why? Because they'd rather not get killed by whatever species they're bullying.

👍

[azure crescent]

using wolves to artificially lower moose population =/= it happens in the wild naturally

[candid turret]

Because I know you won't look it up here you go.

The orca thing is the coolest though.

[azure crescent]

And they only commit infanticide on other species is if the "infant" is separated from its parents
This isn't actually always the case.

lemme grab a vid rq

[frail bobcat]

Imagine getting yoinked by a seapandap

[azure crescent]

yea and the wolverines are funny too lol

[candid turret]

Is it the one where the zebra kicks the Buffalo?

[azure crescent]

No

[candid turret]

Well the calf.

[azure crescent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgviLWtEjwI

literally right next to the parents

[candid turret]

Oh, well yeah thats because they know impala won't kill them and will barely hurt them.

Is that an impala?

[azure crescent]

Hartebeest

[frail bobcat]

The zebras dont want to mixherd lol

[azure crescent]

Also known as a topi

[candid turret]

Ah, they look similar is why I asked.

[azure crescent]

valid

yea zebras are just dicks

[candid turret]

Have you seen the Buffalo kick?

[azure crescent]

I don't recall seeing it

[candid turret]

Wildebeest sorry

[azure crescent]

Ah, it's the one in the middle of the herd right

[candid turret]

Yeah that zebra is a pos for that

Then they all ran thinking it wasn't the Zebra lmao

[azure crescent]

Yea, wildebeest are capable of killing zebras though

Unlike the hartebeest

[candid turret]

Yeah but they didn't know it was the Zebra which is the best part also the Zebra didn't kill it just managed to daze it really.

Which I find hilarious that it was that sneaky.

[azure crescent]

yea

[candid turret]

Zebras and Hippos are both just kinda assholes let's be real.

[azure crescent]

yes

ungulates in general can just be assholes

[candid turret]

True

[frail bobcat]

What are you guys arguing about again?

[azure crescent]

uhh

eat grass and die

[candid turret]

We weren't arguing this was a discussion on animal mentality really lmao

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[candid turret]

And predator prey coexistence

[frail bobcat]

No eat grass and die

[azure crescent]

this being a game, herbivores should still be viable solo

[candid turret]

I've never heard that term before honestly.

[azure crescent]

it basically means "herbivores in this game should only be good in herds and should have less combat capability"

[candid turret]

Ah, I mean I don't think they should have no combat abilities, I just think they should be better off in a group

[frail bobcat]

Everything is stronger in a group but every playables needs to be good solo in its own way

[frail bobcat]

They are already

[azure crescent]

This applies to every playable, carnivore or herbivore, but they should all still be viable when playing solo

[frail bobcat]

Or do you see people attacking more than two stegos at once?

[candid turret]

Agreed

[candid turret]

I hardly ever see two stegos together there's really no need because of how dominant they are currently.

[frail bobcat]

I saw a herd of 6 adults and 5-8 babas once

[azure crescent]

A solo stego can be taken by a decently sized utah pack

[candid turret]

Did you cry? I would have.

[azure crescent]

A stego duo is actually unkillable

[candid turret]

^

[azure crescent]

But solo is not

[frail bobcat]

We yoinked two babys that wanted to go to the herd

[azure crescent]

It's still damn viable, but not immortal

[candid turret]

Fair

Well a good stego doing the walk turn could probably do pretty fine

Z turn?

Idk the game terminology

[azure crescent]

Alt turn

A good solo stego is still at risk of being ganged up on by deinos when drinking

[candid turret]

True

[azure crescent]

Considering it dies in roughly 6 seconds to deinos if they all place headshots

[candid turret]

I just think deino and stego should have a fairly even matchup honestly

Especially because they're both the apex in the game currently.

[frail bobcat]

Deino is a apex that specialises(how do you write that again) in killing stuff below 4 tons

[candid turret]

That's where my brain is getting jumbled up, because Deino could hunt large dinos, but the isle has it where you can't, and I guess that just seems unfair to me for Deino, I don't want him to one shot large dinos no, I just want him to be a formidable threat to other apex when by himself.

[frail bobcat]

Balance>realism

[candid turret]

Fair, I won't try to argue that there can be a balance with realism as well.

[frail bobcat]

But deino being able to kill everything seems weird

It can already kill over half the roster without any risks

[candid turret]

Thats not at all what I said, I said I want it to be a formidable foe to other apex, not straight one shot or kill them, I want another apex to look at Deino and say "is this worth the risk?"

[frail bobcat]

Deino should neither be prey or predator of apexes

[candid turret]

Exactly

Stego do be hunting the Deino though which is infuriating, I got out of the water and a Stego body blocked me from getting back in, I wasn't even going for it, like bruh

[frail bobcat]

And deino is king in its biome (I swear if spino is gonna be stronger than deino in the water imma lose it)

[candid turret]

(It probably will be it's the isle)

[frail bobcat]

These are just the players

[candid turret]

Yeah but it works out for them is my problem lol

[frail bobcat]

Because deino is not supposed to be on land

Stego is insuring that

[candid turret]

Yeah they are.

[frail bobcat]

By smacking them

[candid turret]

To death

After six hours of growing lmao

[frail bobcat]

You need to be far out to die to a stego

[candid turret]

Not really.

[frail bobcat]

Just go into the water when you see stegos or cross

[candid turret]

That's my issue you say it shouldn't be predator or prey for apex, but stego hunts Deino like they are prey.

If Stego ate meat it'd be a primarily Deino diet in the isle lmao

[frail bobcat]

It just abuses that its stronger than it

And it needs to do that or else land crocs

[candid turret]

I should be able to travel from one water source to another without getting wrecked by a Stego at least if you dont wanna buff croc make their Stam better on land and a bit faster

[frail bobcat]

Nah, its fine, you can go to every water source you need by using water

[candid turret]

There's no point in discussing, you don't see Stego being able to wreck a full grown Deino as a issue, and that's understandable maybe you're a herby main, I see the issue with it as I've played both, and as a stego you know what I would do? Go to streams back in and start wracking up Juvie and Adult deino kills like it was payday.

[frail bobcat]

I have not played stego, but they need to be this strong to keep the deinos in control

[candid turret]

Incorrect Deinos should be keeping Stegos in check not the other way around, Stego is more of an Apex then Deino on land, and backed up in water, what fun is that?

[frail bobcat]

I am a utah main, but I talked to deino mains and they understand why stego is this strong

[candid turret]

I've looked this all up and I don't know what "Deino" mains you're talking about but every one I see complains about Stego or screams for you to run away if they see a stego near the water.

[frail bobcat]

Maybe they are complaining because its the only unfavorable matchup they have

[frail bobcat]

How should that work?

[candid turret]

I dont even main Deino and I see the problem.

It should be a fair match-up, not one sided.

You want balance but you also want an Apex that keeps Deino in check, that's not balance that's preference

[frail bobcat]

Because it needs to be this way until bigger dinos come into the game

And again

[candid turret]

So a stego should be able to kill everything and a Deino should only be able to kill mid tiers? Got it.

[slim dragon]

It's fair tho
Deino can only kill stego is the stego is playing dumb
Stego can only kill deino if the deino is playing dumb

[frail bobcat]

Deino is not supposed to hunt playables that are apexes

[candid turret]

That's so untrue.

[frail bobcat]

It is true

And deinos can choose to fight stegos

[candid turret]

I choose to fight the thing hunting me in water and on land, yes, because I wanna be able to go through water without getting clipped by a stego tail.

[frail bobcat]

Just swim away

[candid turret]

With that logic everything should just run away instead of fighting, you know we should just have Isle be a passive game, everyone be buddies.

Stego can run land and water, everything else just lives with it.

[slim dragon]

Everything should just run away from something it can't defeat, yes

[candid turret]

So tell me why can't Stego and Deino keep eachother in check?

[frail bobcat]

No, the deino does not need to fight stego and if it gets attacked by it, it can flee, it should. Its not supposed to kill stegos

[slim dragon]

Because they're not equivalents

[dusky surge]

deinos can easily outswim and avoid stegos

[candid turret]

I shouldn't have to be scared in water as well as land

[frail bobcat]

Mr. stego (fisher niche) when?

[candid turret]

I dont see how that isn't a issue for anyone.

[frail bobcat]

Its not

The only thing that is a danger to deinos in the water are deinos

[candid turret]

Ima have to start recording game play so yall can see stegos patrol water just to kill Deino lmao

[slim dragon]

The only deinos who die are the ones who decide they have nothing better to do than to bite their butts

[frail bobcat]

They cant bother you if you just swim to another spot

The deinos choose to fight them

[unborn iris]

Starting to come to the conclusion that deino players just don't want to ever die. You play the strongest and easiest dinosaur in the game, you have a literal highway around the map that you're mostly invulnerable in. You kill everything in the roster but 80%+ stegos with one click of the mouse. You don't have to eat for 90 minutes at a time, you don't have to worry about water. Fish to eat everywhere.
You literally bully everything but adult stegos with very little actual skill involved. But that's not enough, having to deal with one actual threat just ruins the whole dino.

[candid turret]

I dont main deino

[unborn iris]

I'm just saying in general, I don't know you. But it's the same every time this comes up.

[frail bobcat]

Lol true

[ocean sentinel]

Deino being easiest member of the roster in the game is the exact reason it should be able to hunt Stegos. Because Stegos would still have an advantage, and therefore be a large risk, but still be huntable enough for Deinos to fight it more regularly, thus overall adding more challenge. There is nothing challenging about avoiding Stegos.

Or really anything, since you can just avoid hotspots, and hide in the water in the case of any land animal.

Running away is just facing the opposite way of the attacker, and holding w+shift until you get to the water. This isn't exactly a skill heavy maneuver.

A lot of the skill in this game is from the combat, so designing any member of the roster to simply run away from anything it can't effectively oneshot is going to inevitably result in it being easy.

If you want it to require skill, you don't make it punch exclusively down.

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly, I can't refute that one.

Deinos don't die enough, yet it's bad matchup with stego is one of the most complained about matchups in the game.

I have my own complaints about it, but I don't want Deino to have a straight up advantage against Stego, because that would be boring.

However I do think they should be able to keep each other in check for the reasons I mentioned previously.

[frail bobcat]

So your solution is making one of the easiest dinos in the roster easier?

[ocean sentinel]

Did you read more than the first sentence?

[unborn iris]

I don't play deino or stego that much. But just from experience it seems like there's always a lot more deinos than stegos. I think the current balance in deino vs stego is fair. Deino has a pretty easy grow, not saying that stego is that much harder.
I've seen a suggestion multiple times about stego doing less damage when swinging in water, I feel like that could be a good change.. but right now two deinos can take a stego.

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[unborn iris]

For some reason when deinos are allowed to just roam on land, it seems infinitely more oppressive for other dinos, than just stegos

[ocean sentinel]

Deinos shouldn't be able to roam in land uncontested, I don't think anywhere here right now disagrees with that statement.

If some Stego jumps you when you 100 meters away from water and you die, that is completely your fault. Not much debating to be had there.

[unborn iris]

Well, when deinos were able to take stegos 1v1, they were always on land.

There's so many more deinos than stegos now, and they lose to them. Imagine if they didn't.

[ocean sentinel]

Not if you make the balancing method require water to work.

[unborn iris]

Yeah.

I can see that, for sure.

Would be nice. Stegos should fear water too.

[ocean sentinel]

I'm not asking for Deino to have its bite buffed so it could face tank Stegos, because that isn't exactly fun. I'd much rather have the lunge get a sort of tug of war mechanic, which would require the Stego being in the water or at least at the river bank to work.

It should still be skewd a bit in favor of Stego, but not enough that they would be able to ignore the threat Deinos poses.

[frail bobcat]

We dont need that right now. Stego vs deino is fine

[ocean sentinel]

Then explain to me why ignoring each other is an interesting dynamic between the two most powerful roster members.

[frail bobcat]

They arent ignoring each other

If a deino is stupido and steps onto land its gonna get attacked

They keep each other in their own territories

[ocean sentinel]

Any Deino worth a quarter of their weight in salt isn't ever going to be that far from the water anyway.

[frail bobcat]

But they know they cant go out far

[ocean sentinel]

You can still do that without giving Stego an overwhelming advantage at the river shore

Stego just needs to be able to creme Deino if it leaves the water.

Not be able to completely shut down Deinos ability to fight it with the exception of when it's crossing rivers.

[frail bobcat]

Stego fishing should really not be a thing

The water damage swing thingy would be really cool, that you mentioned before

[ocean sentinel]

It would help, but I still think the best way to do it would be to allow Deino to pose significant a threat to Stego at the River bank, without actually having an advantage.

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[ocean sentinel]

Sure you can do this by reducing it's damage in the water, but then it's just becomes face tanking

Which is dumb and boring

Heck, the problem with Deino combat as whole right now is it's basically always either right click to win, or sit there and spam bite until it dies, or a mixture of both.

If a tug of war mechanic is added, it could make at least some hunts more than just holding down right click and swimming away from land, and it would allow Deino to do more than just punch down, punching down being an issue for reasons I stated earlier.

[unborn iris]

Isn't tug of war just the same thing, but more of a CC and even more OP?

[ocean sentinel]

Depends on how its done

You could allow the grabbed dino to still attack, maybe the body grabbed matters and if a body part used for an attack is grabbed, you can't use that attack.

Convenient for Stego, it's main weapon is on its rear, so if it's just drinking, it would still be at a large advantage if a Deino lunges it in that position.

If they are sitting with their backs to water fishing for Deinos however, it would be a very different story.

It should be noted that Deino certainly wouldn't have enough stamina to simply drown a Stego, it can't even drown a full grown Teno, so the even if it wins the tug of war battle, it would allow it to carry the stego into a more favorable position, which doesn't guarantee the Stego dies. So even a Stego that gets tail grabbed could survive the encounter

All this considered a Stego that is simply drinking would be mostly safe assuming it's just one Deino attacking. For packs of Deinos, the obvious solution is to just group up yourself, or if that isn't an option, simply avoid the water in Deino hotspots like everyone else.

Deino avoids going far into land because there's no water nearby to drag Stegos into, and even if it lunges the tail, the tug of war would only allow for it drag the Stego around a bit and annoy it until Deino runs out of stamina and precedes to die. Meanwhile Stego avoids water, because Deino can actually threaten it there. Seems fair to me.

[azure crescent]

If it's done right, it's way more interactive

[unborn iris]

Would be interesting to see how they could do it.

Deino definitely needs something, as far as being more fun to play.

[neon willow]

Yep. I don't think deino lunge is fun for either deino players nor the things they drown

One click fights followed by very long stretches of boredom usually aren't

[ocean sentinel]

I find hunting as Deino fun, though more so because I often have to try to track targets with only audio and pays off when it leads to a successful hunt, not because the lunge mechanic itself.

The lunge is basically right click to win.

[neon willow]

Well, and that's the problem. No playable should be right click to win.

I DO like the gameplay of swimming around trying to predict where players will cross or drink. Just not that when push comes to shove, croc comes down to-- can you aim, and hit RMB?

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah I agree

Lunge needs a rework

[golden coral]

@tired kelp The reason stego is fine is that you don't really die to a stego as a deino unless you put yourself in harms way deliberately. As long as you are aware of where you're at, what the surroundings look like, and all that, you won't be dying to stegos, unless you take the risk to fight them. Aside from that, with all of the upsides that deino has in general over the rest of the roster, having that one bad matchup is not much to complain about. As deino, you're as safe as safe can be aside from another deino, which is the only thing that can reliably kill you. And the reason it's not a fair fight is because deinos main mechanic is not fair in the first place, as such, for balance reasons it can not be made a more fair fight. Changing how deino works would be required first if you want the matchup to look different. Not that it neccesarily should, deino is apparently not meant to go after other apexes, even spino has been recommended to swim away from.

[tall bronze]

The gators can also just....swim the opposite way 😮

I know it's annoying to have to move, but what's better; fighting them and dying and letting them win? Or leaving and living to tell the tale? 😛

[neon willow]

Honestly because it's a trolling behavior the best way to deal is to ignore them and not give them what they want. If they are fishing for deinos, they want to kill deinos, so just... Keep away. Let them rot in their boredom until they figure out their time is better spent elsewhere

[ocean sentinel]

The problem with this is that it enforces Deino as the brain dead apex that approaches every encounter by either right clicking for oneshot or turning around and holding SHIFT-W. You could sum up it's entire decision making process as an IF-THEN-ELSE statement. That's dubious gameplay right there.

When you look at the most interesting matchups in the game, they don't come to either fighting o running. Both sides can do both. Teno vs Carno for instance. Teno can outstam Carno in a chase, but is also more than capable of killing it. Carno is faster and can quickly dart to the cover of a forest, but can also hunt Tenos.

Deino won't have any of that. It's all either right click and drown, or swim away in a straight line.

[tidal lichen]

@alpine plover

#balance-feedback message

Bro, Carnos are heavier and need more energy. Yes their stomach might have been a lot bigger than that of a Utah. But I‘m sure they aren’t running on some eco fuel so they definitely use more energy and therefore need to eat more. Please don’t try to argue about a game using „logic“ when you don’t quite get it.(may sound a bit aggressive but I don’t mean anything bad)

[wispy kite]

Don’t waste your time. People here are a bit “slow”…

[neon willow]

Oh absolutely. I've been extremely vocal about wanting an update to deino to make it fun/interesting while still keeping it an ambush predator.

But. Trolls literally get enjoyment out of harassing other people. The only effective way to deal with them is to not let them harass people so they get bored and leave, and in deino's case with troll stegos, you have to just swim away and wait them out

[wispy kite]

Just got some weird warning from a “Dyno” bot via pm. Is this from the staff? If so, why is there nothing in the moderation?
If this is legit, then please warn me on Moderation, so I can make some angry post on Reddit.

[stark knoll]

Warnings issued via dyno are officially logged and part of a progressive scale. As this is your first warning, there's no punishment. Not every warning is or will be issued through the moderation channel. And yes, it was issued by a staff member, the only thing our bots do automatically is block specific words

[wispy kite]

So how many warnings are there?

[stark knoll]

Currently the system works like this:

1st: Nothing, just a warning
2nd: 24h mute
3rd: Indefinite mute
4th and beyond: Ban

Not every instance will require a warning, sometimes we feel the need to move directly onto a timeout. Warnings can also be revoked if needed

Personally I use #moderation just to remind people of channel guidelines, small things that don't require any punitive action

[wispy kite]

Alright. Didn’t know calling people slow would require punitive action.
Well, it’s time for my Reddit rant. gtg

[frail bobcat]

What gives you a warning? Like if you use swear words?

[stark knoll]

Nah, warnings are issued by mods through a command

[frail bobcat]

Ok

[stark knoll]

It wasn't due to your one comment alone. I've seen your past messages.

[wispy kite]

Wait, one may argue that calling someone “slow” could be mildly insulting, when being easily offended.
But looking at my own past messages, I never even came close to being rude. Or was suggesting to lower the Carno group limit too much to handle?
The worst thing I am doing so far is discussion this in the balance-feedback section.

[stark knoll]

Either way, the warning was issued because insulting others has no place in this server, especially not here. That's end of

[alpine plover]

It’s hunger drain is horrid. Doesn’t even feel like 45 minutes, an hour is reasonable with it’s bad stamina anyway

[unborn iris]

And yet, somehow, there's still mega packs of carnos everywhere.

[strange rivet]

Mega packs of carnos? haven't seen those in a good while

[tidal lichen]

It’s true that the hunger drains pretty fast. But the carno was greatly nerfed for a reason and it is still in a very strong place. Also the carno can easily find AI food for all three diets on the west of center. I never had any issue with food when playing carno.

[unborn iris]

I run into one every day, at least.

[strange rivet]

Well one isn't everywhere, and what do you consider a mega pack? I played all day yesterday, roaming east to west through south and center. Haven't seen even a pair

[unborn iris]

Mega pack would be anything over group limit.

[strange rivet]

so 4 is mega?

[unborn iris]

Group limit is 3, so yeah.

[strange rivet]

eesh. Pretty mild considering the other dino's tendency to pack over the limit.

[unborn iris]

Which would be mega packs.

Mega pack isn't some vague term. It is literally packing over your group limit.

Which is why the food intake on carno was decreased, to combat mega packs.

Mega packs of carnos are still possible, so one could assume that the hunger is not too bad.

Yeah, it may be annoying to need to eat more on carno.. but there's a reason. You are playing the strongest land carnivore right now.

With that being said, I play carno a decent amount, within group limits, and haven't had much issues with food.

Half the complaints about carnos are literally that they just KOS without eating when there's bodies everywhere.. if you're struggling with food, maybe you should be, and need to learn how to hunt a little better.

[strange rivet]

i play it rarely. I just said i rarely encounter carno megapacks. Or adult megapacks at least.
When I play it, i usually play alone, and mainly struggle with it spawning in, with what feels like 10 minutes to get lucky.

[ocean sentinel]

But. Trolls literally get enjoyment out of harassing other people. The only effective way to deal with them is to not let them harass people so they get bored and leave, and in deino's case with troll stegos, you have to just swim away and wait them out
You can also combat trolling by making things more skill based. High skill trolls are a rarity, so by making it more about the skill of individuals than the roster members they picked, it makes trolling signifcantly harder, because they just get cremed when you try.

Of course Deino isn't exactly a high skill roster member, but that has to change

Every apex should be a reward for players who have mastered the game, so they should have a skill requirement that reflects that.

Otherwise their population gets bloated, like Deino now

[alpine plover]

I agree. The only problem is just that, hunger.

[slim dragon]

@still summit That is literally the point of deino

[still summit]

Oh

Alr then wa

[azure hinge]

its okay your comments didnt seem bad at all to me. we have definitely seen the dev's say way worse things to people not a big deal if you get banned you get banned dont let the mod bully you

[ocean sentinel]

Deinosuchus same species combat is definitely uninteresting and predictable at the moment, but it would be better if they changed how it worked rather than removed it.

It's basically just comes down to numbers, which sucks for the person who gets attacked. Some defensive abilities to even things out and add depth would make things more interesting and fair.

[neon willow]

@still summit I know cannibalism is the point of deino, especially since rn it's the only thing that can kill other deinos in the water. But, you've got a point too-- deino/deino combat is really boring and more often than not comes down to numbers instead of who plays more skillfully (making it impossible to get away if you're targeted)

[unborn iris]

Carno can 1 shot utah with a charge, and should easily be able to finish utahs and pachys with a single charge. You can easily get the charge on teno and then 2 bites and get away if you have a little bit of practice and awareness. Which with well-aimed bites can do half of teno's health, which is plenty of damage for a single successful engagement. It's crazy how people hop on carno just not expecting any sort of challenge at all.

[keen plover]

I'm confused. How does adding those changes make carno not a challenge?

[unborn iris]

Being able to misread your charge and overshoot, and still have plenty of time to come back for 2 bites to the head and leave the teno under half health. Like it was before. The funny part is when they lowered the knockdown, they buffed the carno charge. It uses a lot less stamina, none to activate, and it seems to have a bigger hitbox, harder for teno to cancel it out. And it can be activated in a lot shorter distance.

So right now, say you mess up and you overshoot on your charge. You still get easily 1 free headshot. If you don't that's just you missing your bite. If you actually judge your charge, which does take a little practice, IE the "skill" part, you land 2 headshots and the teno is not in a good spot. Especially since for some reason carno still has pretty high bleed.

If you raise the knockdown again, then the "good" carnos can land 3 headshots and just facetank the next bite or two and the teno doesn't have much chance.

All because the carno lands a single charge. Which isn't that hard to do.

Sure, 1v1 against a teno can be rough. You start adding 1-2 more carnos, no matter how many tenos there are, and it's laughably easy to land charges.

[keen plover]

Fair points. I agree with them all. You can also cancel the drift by alt biting for those who don't know *

[verbal meadow]

I'll be direct:

utah is an magnet now

and pachy has a pillow head,

the hunger of carno decay too fast

[alpine plover]

the polar bear sized animal with a giant brick on its head doing a measly 100 damage because it’s a herbivore and herbivores aren’t allowed to fight back

[azure hinge]

100 dmg is a lot the fk

deino has a 500 dmg bite and is 8 tons

[slim dragon]

But deino isn't a fighter
And bite doesn't cost stamina

[spring dagger]

I like carno the way it is, i just have an issue with its absurd hunger drain

It's way more balanced now that i can actually 1 shot utahs and not be completely fucked by a stay-in fight anymore since it's positioning and ambush is what will get it kills, as it's supposed to be

[azure hinge]

but maybe pachy isnt supposed to be a fighter

maybe its supposed to be a defender thats why its meant to rely on the stun more than the dmg

that is probably the point of the change they made

[slim dragon]

Defender means it has to fight
What good is it to stun a utah if it can simply get up and attack again ?

[azure hinge]

its a very agile dino with great mobility and a stun

[slim dragon]

Pachy should prefectly be able to kill a utah in a 1v1, the utah/pachy match-up was pretty balanced before this update, where they had even chances of killing each other
Which makes sense for animals of roughly the same size

[slim dragon]

What, pachy ? Agile ? Have you played it ?

[azure hinge]

yes

i feel like a racecar when i play my pachy

thing zooms

[slim dragon]

Then I don't know how you would consider utah if pachy is "agile"
It's much slower and also turns way more slowly than utah

With pretty low stamina on top of it

[azure hinge]

and the only reason why utah kills pachy is because of pounce

so your problem isnt with pachy being to weak its with utah pounce being too strong

[slim dragon]

No, it's with pachy being too weak
Pachy being almost dead with one pounce is fine as long as it can also punish a utah for a missed pounce

But with current damage ? You have no chance to kill it, it's just gonna run away, regain some stam and try again in 2 mins

[spring dagger]

pachy isnt a bad animal

its just everyone plays it like U4 pachy which was a monster

[azure hinge]

so you want pachy too just kill a utah almost 100% if it misses a pounce?

[slim dragon]

It was definitely too strong specifically against carno
But the pachy VS utah match-up was fine imo

[azure hinge]

U4 pachy was just a god amongst peasants

thats why everyone started to play them it was sooooo funny

[slim dragon]

Yes, since utah can almost 100% kill a pachy with a pounce

[azure hinge]

hmm i disagree i dont liek thigns that have no counter play just like pounce being too strong on smaller things like pachy

[spring dagger]

utah's bleed is too strong across the board, it shouldn't take 2 pounces to put a carno out of commission

i said this before and i'll say it again, people complained about utah in U2 being fucked, this is practically the same thing but with bleed so whats the difference

[azure hinge]

im still going to say i prefer utah now over u4 utah

before they were useless but yeah definitely could tweak a bit

[spring dagger]

well yeah, the pounce actually works

the fault wasn't with the dinos stats, they were fine

it's just it's pounce was beyond crap because of it's inconsistency

but now you have an burst animal thats 350kg taking out things way bigger than it in like 2 seconds

[slim dragon]

@spare crow Stego has no damage resistance, and it's the only playable in the current roster that deino cannot kill instantly with no possible counterplay. Maybe it's fine this way ?

[spare crow]

I didn't mean so much stego has a base resistance, more or less that the attack from the tail allows it to hides it's most vulnerable spot

[spring dagger]

Stego should have less bleed resist and more physical bulk imo. Deino should be able to fight a stego but only in certain situations

[slim dragon]

Well that's the point of it

[slim dragon]

I don't really think so. Unless a tug-of-war is implemented, I don't think deino should be able to kill a stego just like that.

[spare crow]

and it makes sense, it's just the stego is undeniably the strongest because of it, it's almost certain to win. no the deino shouldn't just win, but with where it stands, it'll rarely win. ones 8000 kg, that thing jumping at a stego will hurt it, and they are already working on bone fracture, at least making it where something like spraining a tail or breaking it will stop the herbivore from wanting to pick on full grown deinos

[spring dagger]

Tug of war isnt coming though, i thought it was confirmed

Its either that or stego is just a uncontested unbalanced mess until land terrestrial creatures come in, and even then that just serves to invalidate deino even more

[alpine plover]

The stego is only so strong because there's no predators meant to counter it right now.

A pack of Utahs can kill a Stego fairly easily if it's solo, but that's about it.

[azure hinge]

i dont like 1 shot mechanics which includes deinos main killing mechanic atm

its not fun, not interesting, not enjoyable, boring, lackluster,

just Zzzz

just rework deino

[alpine plover]

Deino is fun and adds anxiety to the game. Makes it interesting. You can escape a Deino if you struggle with E and semi close to shore (if carno).

[azure hinge]

wrong but your entitled to have opinions that are wrong so its okay

[alpine plover]

I think you're just a wimp to be honest and don't have the patience to go down stream slightly.

So, I think you'd be wrong because you're too lazy to walk away from the main watering holes.

[slim dragon]

The "struggle free of deino's mouth" is a myth

[azure hinge]

okay like i said before wrong but entitled to your wrong opinions

[alpine plover]

No it's not. I tested it last week on Envirma Custom. It does work.

[azure hinge]

see bubulblu knows

[slim dragon]

You can believe it as much as you want to I've got confirmation from stress tester and QA members that there is no such mechanic

[alpine plover]

You can go do it to .. you know there are community servers on Envirma, right?

Then go do it yourself. You're just a liar.

[slim dragon]

Also there's never ever been a mention in any patchnotes or devblog of a mechanic to struggle when grabbed by a deino

[alpine plover]

Go to a custom server and test it.

Switch from Official Servers.

Maybe a bug, I don't know, but it worked.

[azure hinge]

the deino probably just had low stam and doesnt know how the mechanic really works

[jade mauve]

A Deino has to let go of you I thought? Because one did and I pressed E, came to the top, but they grabbed me again. Even pressing E, it did nothing to save me as I was in its mouth.

[azure hinge]

yeah and if people are grped together they typically say to grab next if 1 deino is at low stam

[slim dragon]

There might also be a thing with deino's grab with lag or desyng making it release for no reason
Because I've seen videos of a deino grabbing prey then the prey escaping with the deino still having stam

[jade mauve]

Yeah^

[azure hinge]

so they bring u low as possible then the 2nd deino comes and grabs because hte other has low stam

[jade mauve]

SO we are right. We can't struggle out of their mouth.

xD

Would be nice to do so though sometimes. >:c

[slim dragon]

Well actually you can but that's what your dino automatically does as soon as it's being grabbed
And that's why the deino loses stam when grabbing something

[jade mauve]

I meant struggle as a mechanic while pressing a button. BUT i know what you mean. c:

[ocean sentinel]

The game doesn't make it clear you have to hold right click, they might've just clicked it, which results in them dropping their prey soon afterwards.

[slim dragon]

I've seen a video where a deino grabs a teno, holds it for 2 seconds, the teno escapes and they have to grab it again 2 times in order to drown it
Maybe their mouse had a problem tho

[ocean sentinel]

Weird

It would be cool if they added a kind of struggle mechanic, maybe it could drain the prey's stamina makes them bleed more, but it makes the Deino's stamina drain even faster.

[slim dragon]

Would that really change anything ?
In the end it still all boils down to wether the deino has enough stamina to drown its prey or not

[ocean sentinel]

It adds another complication to hunting, though not so much depth. It's just holding e.

It would really just make the prey's blood pool matter as well.

Pure stamina battles aren't really interesting, all you have to do to win them is travel slower than the other guy.

[neon willow]

Exactly this. I'm okay with deino having a lunge... But it needs to be a little more of a contest than it currently is

[spring dagger]

1 shot mechanics aren't fun. Thats why people with half a brain cell wont go near populated rivers for fear of their dino prog being lost which i can understand, working for 3 hours to grow a dino only to have it die to a deino holding RMB like some kind of ape to remove that prog is frustrating

Deino is just not a good dino, when semi aquatics come out, if they're smart they'll just use land since land offers so much more cover and variety in terms of biomes and places to hide whereas water is restrictive since the dev team only wants to add 1 river and thats it, refusing to expand on the biome even though it DESPERATELY needs some folliage. That being said the NV mechanics, the fact the deino can smell movement will most likely force semi aquatics on land anyway.

Deino just doesnt fit the mould of the game, it adds anxiety and frustration and is genuinely not fun to play as or not fun to fight against because of its braindead mechanic, it's a BOB mosa reskin for gods sake.

[frail bobcat]

A tug of war thingy would be good

[spring dagger]

They've already said they're not adding that though, atleast thats what i've heard

Idk i barely keep up with discussion on deino, my minds made up on it so

[frail bobcat]

Maybe semi-aquatics can struggle far more effective

So it wont work to drown them

[spring dagger]

If that were true, that in combination with the breath of semi's being high kinda defeats the purpose of it; the deino cant pursue as these semis with exception of beip and spino will either be too big to kill 1 hit reliably or the deino cant keep up with them due to mobility

it's religated to being a baby killer at best, or catching stupid people

[frail bobcat]

Deino gonna be faster than lots of them and I think the rivers are gonna be wider in the new map

[spring dagger]

Ok but then semis just wont use rivers

if theres gonna be more rivers then that mitigates it but

i dont see semis being able to compete in the water, as they shouldnt against a crocodile that big

[azure crescent]

The breath of semis is nullified when lunged. If you lunge another deino, it will drown in seconds.

[azure crescent]

herons that live alongside alligators doing just fine:
waterfowl:

beipi should be the only one to actually compete IN the water reliably

because superior manouverability and agility

[spring dagger]

Ok, but what about bary? sucho? spino?

Breath being nullified when lunged still doesnt help, it makes deino even more braindead

Can you imagine a 75% or 50% spino dying to that? thats just not fun

and hours of their time are just gone at a RMB click

[azure crescent]

they can go on land lol

[spring dagger]

exactly

[azure crescent]

I know, i didn't say it would be

I'm also in favour of deino being reworked

I'm just adding on what you said

[azure crescent]

For example, what you said here has an exception, which is beipi

and possibly austro because austro can just see deinos coming

[spring dagger]

I mean yeah but the thing is, it doesnt matter which cake you cut Deino is just a bad playable by design

Having a dino be reliant upon 1 move in order to score cheap kills is a flawed animal, having an animal that can take on things way bigger than it without resistance is a flawed animal, in which deino presents a unique challenge as it cant really be balanced through conventional means, we had super deinos in early U3, now we just have soy deino from U4 onwards

in which Deino is the most disconnected from the roster since it's entire premise is to wait for stuff to come to it, as a carnivore, with the absurd hunger drain all in all and the shoddy implementation of diets so far. Its not an apex, its a scavenger and things can just ignore it

Not the fault of the players, just the fault of bad game design

[spring dagger]

My take on it really, beip and austro cant compete either since they're 1 shottable and you know for a fact their escape moves are going to be bugged on release or bugged for a while given the devs update schedule

so it really depends how they implement their moves, but i wouldnt hold out hope for it

[ocean sentinel]

The problem is Deino is designed around a oneshot attack is supposed to swim away from everything it can't use it on, which inevitably results in a brainless playstyle.

[spring dagger]

Yeah, thats just the issue of it

[ocean sentinel]

You either right click it and kill, or hold SHIFT+W in the other direction

[azure crescent]

Bugs should not be taken into account when talking about balance, as they are not intentional.

Being 1 shottable doesn't matter if the deino can't even touch you.

[spring dagger]

So theres no competition then?

[azure crescent]

Not from adult deinos

[spring dagger]

Bugs also do matter as they inflate or deflate the performance of the animal regardless of intent, hence having an effect on balance

[azure crescent]

I know, they're just not intentional and thus taking them into account is just shifting the argument in your favour

[neon willow]

I mean yes, but the point of bugs is that they're unintentional and will be patched/fixed

[ocean sentinel]

I remember someone suggested that dinos should be able to press SPACE while drinking to quickly jump back to dodge Deinos.

[spring dagger]

But dependant on how long they persist is going to have an effect on balance, look at utah for gods sake.

[azure crescent]

I mean there IS competition, they're just able to reliably escape from adult deinos. Juvies might be sneaky enough to catch them off guard.

[spring dagger]

Utah took 3 updates just to get it's signature move fixed, it was terrible before that

[azure crescent]

Again, taking them into account is literally just changing the argument to be in your favour, and is not reliable.

[spring dagger]

Of course its reliable.

[azure crescent]

How? There's only been 1 case of what you mentioned happening, and it was utah

[ocean sentinel]

I think giving smaller animals a backwards dodge and allowing Deino to engage in tug of war with larger animals would make it more interesting. Deino is only going to have any kind of challenging combat if it has to take on large prey.

[spring dagger]

There was a noticable decline in players of utah. The balance was off as a result of a bug, regardless of intent

[azure crescent]

So 1 dinosaur out of 9 being bugged means that every other dinosaur will be bugged?

Stego used to be bad in U3, but it was due to poor balancing and not bugs

[spring dagger]

I mean there was the same thing with carno having invisible charges, there was pachy being bugged on implementation, there was ptera being slightly bugged with its FM so yeah i guess thats a trend.

There are exceptions to this ofc with stego in U3

[azure crescent]

FM?

[spring dagger]

Flight model

[azure crescent]

Ah

So clearly that affects balance

[spring dagger]

Stego is the one exception

[azure crescent]

Okay, so far you've mentioned 3 out of 9

One third of the current roster was bugged, and thus every following playable will also be bugged

Point is, we shouldn't take bugs into account. End of story. Now moving on to ACTUAL balance talk, beipi can do the following to survive deino attacks:
Jump over them
Out stam them
Juke them multiple times
Go on land
Possibly outspeed them

This is not a lack of competition, there is still competition. Deinos still will attempt to attack beipis, the competition is just in favor of beipi

[spring dagger]

But beipi wont be able to do anything back

whats it gonna do? thats not a competition?

[azure crescent]

It is lmao, it's predator-prey competition. The prey doesn't need to fight back for it to be competition

As long as there's conflict, it's competition

If the deino engages and the beipi escapes, it's competition

[neon willow]

I mean it's a survival game, not a fighting game. Not every playable has to be able to fight and kill every other playable, they win if they survive the encounter and the deino loses lunch (possibly starving)

[azure crescent]

^

Competition =/= combat

[neon willow]

Beipi should be fine (not boring) so long as it can fight at least most of its encounters. But picking your fights is a big part of survival

And so knowing that a deino cannot be effectively fought as a beipi is part of picking your fights

[spring dagger]

yeah

[ocean sentinel]

Will beipi even be able to fight anything, or is it entirely based on running away?

[azure crescent]

It can fight off up to anything ~300 kg

aka the biggest thing it can take is an austro, and it'll struggle against even that since apparently austro is gonna mainly win that fight

[neon willow]

Hmm

I would've thought therizinosaurids would be able to punch up a bit (I mean obviously you don't want a tier 1 to be reliably killing tier 4 but maybe 1 tier up depending on strategy)

In general though I think it's a poor idea to make any playable entirely about running away, as it basically means that playable will be a lot less popular because most people don't enjoy having to run away from literally everything

[azure crescent]

it does

austro is like 2x beipi's size

beipi just seems less impressive because its on a smaller scale

[neon willow]

I mean, there's sense in saying you can't win them all and choosing to avoid a bad situation, but nobody enjoys that being the default option

Ah gotcha lol

[blissful mesa]

if you want balance, make stegos take more damage damage lol im sure in reality a couple bites from a croc would make it limp D: not just bounce about and then one shot you in the head

#makedeinosgreatagain

[stark knoll]

Stego has a higher headshot multiplier than the rest of the species

[spring dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-troll-face-depressed-trollface-gif-25126675

and its still turbo broken

[neon willow]

To be fair, stegos head is REALLY small compared to it's body. Way more so than the rest of the playables. And they tend to only need to turn slightly to cover the space previously occupied by their head with their thagomizer

[azure crescent]

stego doesnt 1 shot deino in the head lmao

[blissful mesa]

tell that to my old 60% deino who got one shot in the head

[golden coral]

Even that should not be one shot, you're at least 3T+ at that point I'm pretty sure.

[blissful mesa]

maybe a bug then idk

but my dead carcass tells no lies xD

[golden coral]

Probably either that, or maybe you took more than one hit. If the stego got the quick jab angle, well, that can be lethal really fast.

[stark knoll]

How much does a 60% deino weigh?

[golden coral]

I believe it should be nearing 4T

[stark knoll]

Or how much did it weigh depending on whether this was pre-U5

[golden coral]

I think around 60-70 is where you can drown everything but stegos

If I recall correctly from my earlier deino lives

[somber sphinx]

I’ll check

[golden coral]

At least you'd be heavier than a carno at that point, and if so, you do not get one shot since carno just about get one shot on head

[somber sphinx]

3.9 tons when 60%

[golden coral]

Alright! So not a one shot by stego then, not even on head, unless something has drastically changed

[neon willow]

What's the conversion from weight to HP?

[golden coral]

Conversion? Weight and health is the same, and I think blood pool as well, but not sure on that one.

[somber sphinx]

Yeah bloodpool is the same as weigh and hp

Exept carno

[golden coral]

Pretty sure even carno has that. It did not get a change to the blood pool.

[somber sphinx]

Didn’t it get a bloodpool nerf?

[golden coral]

No. Just a change to the amount of bleed "damage" you take while standing, walking and trotting. Just like how deino has bleed resistance and "technically" has something like double blood pool due to that or whatever the resistance is.

[somber sphinx]

Ah ok. Makes more sense

[neon willow]

Ah gotcha ty. Wasn't sure if there was a multiplier (or more likely a fraction) applied to make the health pools

[alpine plover]

Can Deinos not eat fish that jump out of the water ..

[somber sphinx]

You can but they give nothing

[alpine plover]

What about the little brim fish that just swim at the bottom? I keep biting them and nothing

[somber sphinx]

The smal schooler fish you can kill as deino it’s just difficult and like I said they give nothing so what’s the point

[golden coral]

I was told by other deinos that we can no longer catch the school fishes, but even if we could, as Warden said, it would be worth nothing. And since even a fresh spawn deino can kill elite fish, there's really no reason you'd ever go after the small ones.

[somber sphinx]

I think you still can if you alt bite but the hit box of the school fish are soooo smal

[alpine plover]

Damnnn those reboots, though. Destroy progress.

[spring dagger]

Carno charge does not need changing, it already 1 shots utahs and can reliably kill pachy if they try and stay and fight you as a carno. The only problem with carno imo is it's god awful hunger drain and stamina

[alpine plover]

Are you crazy??? You have no clue what you're talking about. I charged a Utah four times the other day.

Knock down is too fast for carno. Utah is up and running around before he can turn around.

[unborn iris]

Then you need to learn how to play carno. If you can't finish a utah after charging it, you are doing it wrong.

And you were probably hitting tail which doesn't even knock it down, if you got 4 charges. That will kill any utah if you're hitting body.

[alpine plover]

You sound like a dufus.

[hasty coyote]

charge does 300 damage, meaning a ram and bite on the body 1-shots pachy and utah. A headshot ram does exactly enough to kill a utah.

[alpine plover]

Hey guys, we're out here ramming AFK Utahs. lol

[hasty coyote]

if you want to keep insulting instead of keeping this civilized then no one will want to finish this argument

[wise obsidian]

A utah should not survive 4 charges. I got hit on my tail from a carno charge the other day and it took more than half my health despite no knockdown. Maybe you just have a skill issue

[hasty coyote]

plus, didnt you say you rammed a utah 4 times?

[alpine plover]

There's no argument. I'm not ramming AFK Utahs. You wanna charge a Utah head on? Okay, it'll just move a little to the side.

Yes, from the back.

[hasty coyote]

then thats how you use charge, when chasing or ambushing

[wise obsidian]

You realize you can turn while charging?

[alpine plover]

Okay, didn't kill them. Knocked him down twice, the other two stopped me in my tracks. Didn't even do anything.

Yes, you can ever so slightly turn while charging, while a Utah turns on a dime.

[hasty coyote]

you generally don't use it mid-combat because its very telegraphed, so you generally want to use it when your victim doesnt expect it. So if you have multiple carnos, landing a charge is much easier

[alpine plover]

I landed them

Doesn't matter if it's telegraphed, didn't do crap.

The Charge needs a long knock down that's about it

[hasty coyote]

Then thats just not possible. To knock down, you need to at least hit the base of the tail. I'm pretty sure 1200 damage would kill a utah, even with base of the tail's damage reduction.

[alpine plover]

It's definitely possible, I hit him twice, and i hit him two more times and it stopped me dead in my tracks like hitting a wall while he just kept running.

If the knock down lasted longer where you could turn around and take a bite, charge is fine except the bug where it does not damage.

[hasty coyote]

wait nvm i misread, that seems like either lag or bad hitboxes. No clue what stopped you those 2 times other than lag. The other 2 you hit the base of the tail (not sure on the base of tail damage multiplier, but he likely survived with a hair).

[unborn iris]

😬

The knock down is plenty long enough to turn around and finish the utah, even if you misjudge it and overshoot your charge. Which was my point. Maybe you ran into some bugs that I've never encountered or heard about, but that means the bugs should be fixed, not that charge should be made better.

[spring dagger]

A carno charge to the head does 1 shot a utah? what are you talking about

Just position better and actually use your charge well, i typically dont really use it until the last possible moment where it's impossible to react or if i catch the utah in a pincer movement where they're forced to go one way or another and meet a charge

That and if you hold your charge all the way through, you burn all of your stam pool and at that point you deserve to die

[unborn iris]

The whole point of AI giving less food is for you to grow on them or maybe supplement your diet in a pinch. Not to just be able to survive on AI. No wonder you guys are having trouble with hunger.

It's pvp survival. Go after other dinos and you will have plenty of food. If you're struggling with that, go find a free grow server to practice on or something without the stress of dying to everything you meet or having to run away.

[alpine nest]

yeah and always eating ai is boring.
Wheres the fun at fighting ai the whole time?

[vocal nexus]

Says you I don’t want this too turn into Tarkov

[keen plover]

Don't worry, dino AI will be a thing

Especially since they love big maps

It will be necessary

[dusky surge]

:(

[azure crescent]

What's the issue with dino AI?

[dusky surge]

i just dislike it conceptually

[keen plover]

Same

But if they make the map really, really large. It's pretty much necessary

[golden coral]

@zenith canyonIf you're fully grown you oneshot utahs on body, so I think they do die immediately, even from a lunge? Or at least you can at that poit grab, pull into water, let go and just bite down if you'd prefer.

[zenith canyon]

I lunged a few utahs but it wasn’t a 1 shot. The let go and bite once more isn’t a 100% success in shallow waters. And going on land to left click bite them also doesn’t always work out, depending on the area. Lunge pushes you forward and makes you be able to reach max speed in an instand, but atm it could use some extra dmg

[golden coral]

Why are you in shallow waters? :p But as long as the utah is swimming and not right at the shore, you should have little issue landing a bite on it. Or even just dive with it, then let go after a few seconds, so it's out of stam.

But yeah, if they would die from a normal bite, then lunge should probably one shot as well really.

Might as well just charge and bite for that matter.

[zenith canyon]

Yeah, I also don’t like that you have to find a „tricky way“ (not intended way) to outplay the stamina drain. Lunge should be more of a success and have a bigger impact. Also since opertunitys can be so rare, a higher succes chance should be good for deino. At least I am unlucky with finding drinking players

Actually ain’t tricky at all, but you know what I mean

(Possible alternate)
Make the stamina drain based on opponents weight

[golden coral]

I've no idea what you're on about there to be honest. Lunge is always successful if you're grown and have max stam? As a matter of fact, the lunge is stupidly OP as a move, and shouldn't really be a thing as it currently is.

There's probably not a mechanic in the game with higher success rate than the lunge, if we talk about landing the attack.

[zenith canyon]

You don’t always have full stamina and players often times run around next to water searching for good spots (makes you consume stamina to follow them) by the time they are drinking, you might come out with barely any stamina left.

[golden coral]

... If you don't keep your stamina up, that's well, a skill issue as it were. And yes, people do try to outwit a deino, which is why you need to plan ahead for that too. Though the issues with deino getting stuff is a fair point, but it does not relate to how effective and powerful the lunge is as a mechanic.

[zenith canyon]

The use of it is very limited. Once you are in sight the prey is gone. Making the lunge op, but very limited

[golden coral]

And I think it's only really teno that might escape a lunge if you're low on stam, due to it be being semiaquatic sort of. The rest of the roster will not have a good time at all. And one way to counter this, is to shove them down somewhere, where even if they do get free, they don't know which way is out.

And sure, deino struggles with hunting, but you made it sound like the lunge somehow needed to be better, when it's a really good move in and of itself. The issue is not the lunge, but rather that deino does not have that many opportunities to get stuff. Which in turn is good because the lunge being what it is, is a terrible mechanic and not fun to interact with. Which in turn makes deino rather sad to play as. And around we go :p

[zenith canyon]

My original idea on why I came to this was how unrealistic it is for deino not being able to 1 shot smaller prey that are drinking by lunge. Considering Deinos gameplay kinda is completely based on lungeing players and fighting other Deinos

[zenith canyon]

So you are saying that following my prey by consuming stamina is a skill issue? What’s the alternative? Let it go. That’s unsuccessful

[golden coral]

It is, and the issue there is the lunge. If you give it better biteforce, why lunge at all?

Thats why deino does not get to go om nom nom on stuff. Because it's supposed to use the lunge.

[golden coral]

Yes, in a sense. Part of being a good deino is to find the spots where people do drink and be ready for that. Not saying it's easy, but "following" a target, shouldn't really mean using stamina. That'd be more of a swim slow under surface so they don't know you're there. Especially since you make noise when you go fast, which is how I've avoided deinos because I heard them coming.

[zenith canyon]

I am saying lunge should get a damage buff. So smaller prey realisticly dies in an instand. Even you did say that it doesn’t matter as lunge is mostly a instand kill regardless of buffing. So this is actually just a question of detail and stamina drain that isn’t needed

[ocean sentinel]

It's impossible to tell where prey will drink next, so you do have to track them using audio, you just have to manage stamina carefully

With Utahs your probably better off just biting them, since it's a oneshot.

[zenith canyon]

As I said players do not always go for popular spots, rather randomly run arround. So using no stamina equals losing your opportunity on prey and using stamina to follow up is giving you a chance.
So I don’t see the pro player move if I’m not consuming as mutch stamina.

All that comes down to having not mutch stamina left afterwards for a successful lunge

[golden coral]

Sure you can't tell 100%, but you can figure things out and have a good enough idea. I'd say that is part of being a deino, you're very much a pure ambusher, you find a spot, and you sit there. Not the most thrilling gameplay, but that's kind of it. And you can travel without using stamina, so there is that too. I personally do, since I always favour having stamina ready for any trouble. But it does of course take longer. But if you are low on stam, then I would recommend the whole shoving the target into a bad position.

It's a way to add some extra time to yourself if you know you can't hold them long enough, attempt to put them in a way where even if they are let go, they need to reorient and find their way back to shore.

[zenith canyon]

„Why are you in shallow waters“ I am not deciding where my prey goes XD

[golden coral]

True enough, just thinking of where you'd be where you couldn't find deeper water nearby. Most areas I can think of, you could grab someone and take them with you, unless you're very low on stam more often than not?

[zenith canyon]

I am usually in swamp, but people know shallow areas to drink from over the months. So I gotta go into that area as well. Next to waterfall and at the mountain Rockside at swamp 1

[golden coral]

Ah, yeah the swamp is a bit of a interesting place. Honestly I'd say the issue there is that deino is well.. large :p You're too visible unless you can trick them by attacking from land. Which to be fair, might work if you're camoed and you know where they like to go for a drink. At least in the main areas of he swamp.

[zenith canyon]

Yeah the size litterly lets it stick out in areas you are right. I just love it there XD

[golden coral]

It's a nice place, and if you're in the main swamp with the dam, you might have some luck trying to catch things from land. People tend to not expect that, and now that you can make a green or otherwise camo deino, it could work. Lunge does work on land after all, I've on occassion caught someone sitting too close to shore and not paying attention :p

[azure crescent]

it already does 1 shot small prey though

also why would you lunge a utah

[zenith canyon]

Talking about utahs mainly

[zenith canyon]

Circumstances

[azure crescent]

valid

[spring dagger]

Deino gameplay

[urban birch]

If you go to that shallow area on the west side of damn and move as close to shore as possible and sniff ur deino is completely submerged. My PT friend said they couldn’t hear me either. Caught a few temps this way

[marsh marsh]

How much damage does a pounce from a uwutah?

[somber sphinx]

don’t know about dmg but it does a lot of bleed

A LOT

[marsh marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/shaman-for-honor-skol-gif-25250592

[somber sphinx]

Shaman

https://tenor.com/view/for-honor-centurion-forblad-forbladgaming-overtek-gif-18342103

[marsh marsh]

Maybe utahs should get a neck bite tooxD

[somber sphinx]

[marsh marsh]

[zenith canyon]

Yeah I usually go there when the herbie herd is on the damn. Great spot 10/10

[hasty coyote]

That depends on a lot of factors, but I can give you some bleed numbers

[marsh marsh]

nice thank you

[marsh marsh]

would appreciate that

[hasty coyote]

I’ll send them in a bit because I need to get to my pc to send them

[marsh marsh]

aight:)

[marsh marsh]

You forgot to send em🤣

[hasty coyote]

Just got home, gonna send them in a min

here: (ps, full=full food+water+stam half=half food+water+stam)

[marsh marsh]

Nice thank you

[hasty coyote]

np

[twilit juniper]

How many pounces was this? =D

[unborn iris]

Looks like one bucked pounce.

[hasty coyote]

1 fully bucked pounce, til it fell off the side

Also, that one 42/19 value for pachy was because we got 42% bleed for some reason, then we retried it and got 19%

No idea why I kept so much bleed there

[dusky surge]

eat grass and die moment in balance feedback

[twilit juniper]

Yup 0-0

[analog mirage]

@real raptor according to that logic, what’s the point of playing Teno if Carno straight up beats it

And for the record, Carno can easily kill a Teno if it gets a charge off

[keen plover]

Don't brawl tenos, unless the teno is bad and you're decent. Wait for an opportunity to charge. Aim for headshots with charge. If a teno has kicked you twice already, don't bother fighting it and focus on surviving. Or play with another carno @real raptor

[real raptor]

all it takes is the teno to see u for a split second, turn and tail smack

meanwhile the teno can just chase u around

@analog mirage @keen plover

[analog mirage]

If you are in a bush and carefully wait till it’s not looking if you charge you take priority and knock down a Teno

[keen plover]

A teno can not chase you around if it only tail slams. It has no bleed to it

The kicks is what screws carnos the most

[lavish lake]

Just keep in mind that Carno is supposed to be a glass cannon and not some freight train

[analog mirage]

It’s basically a class cannon train

[keen plover]

You can still brawl as carno. Bait attacks, tail bites. Spook tenos by fake charging.

[analog mirage]

Yeah

Just don’t go near tenos tail

[keen plover]

Get in another carno and you can really pressure tenos into making mistakes. I'd say 1 v 1, it's teno favoured. 2 v 2 and carnos can really put the hurt on, since they need to focus on 2 carnos due to charge.

[keen plover]

Depends on the player, a decent amount still tail slam when you keep biting the tip of the tail.

[analog mirage]

Carno isn’t really meant for 1v1 brawling unless it’s something small like Utah. If can cause hefty damage to a Teno with a charge but it can’t just brawl it

Play smart, not lmb spam

[spring dagger]

Teno is very much balanced atm.

[analog mirage]

Carno could use a few changes but nothing major

Otherwise yeah, Teno and Carno are balanced

[neon willow]

@real raptor tenos cannot hunt carno. They are WAY slower, so you can always choose to leave and they cannot stop you. Their heavy hitting attacks are also both rear facing, so if they chase, not only can they not keep up but they can't do a ton of damage extremely quickly. If you die to a teno as a carno, you made mistakes and then did not cut your losses and leave

[keen plover]

Eh. I wouldn't say balanced. They should have lowered the bleed value on its bite instead of making it more susceptible to bleed.

It's still great though, purely because it's large and fast

[analog mirage]

Like I said, little things but nothing major for Carno

[neon willow]

Teno/carno imo are fairly balanced. Tenos can't pick fights that the carnos Don't agree to, but otherwise the fight can go either way easily depending on skill and strategy of both

[analog mirage]

All Carno really needs is to fill up in less food and do less bleed

[keen plover]

As in, do less bleed per bite, while still having the current bleed resistance?

[analog mirage]

Do less bleed and maybe revert the blood lose nerfs

Cause a single Utah shouldn’t be able to bring it down to 50% blood

[keen plover]

What they should have done lol

I wouldn't lower carno bleed + keep its current resistance. It would be terrible against raptors

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[spring dagger]

revert bleed changes and maybe increase carno's hunger.
friggin hunger changes need to be made though since hunger is terribad for everything atm

[dusky surge]

i hope it happens in gore

since with gore, food's gonna go off and become inedible at points

so you cant rely on random corpses as much anymore

[spring dagger]

Gore is apparently gonna give buffs...?

Which is strange and i dont think is gonna be good for the game

Id rather the gore actually count to the diet system.

[dusky surge]

it does

gore doesnt give buffs, diets give buffs

[spring dagger]

Idk where i heard that gore was just gonna give temporary buffs depending on what you need

[dusky surge]

thats not a thing, no

diets fit that better

[spring dagger]

I hope not

[dusky surge]

they're making it that different diet combinations give different buffs

so you can have 2 protein 1 lipid for example

[spring dagger]

But what are those buffs?

Like do we know anything about that?

[dusky surge]

pretty sure the buffs will be stuff like healing and stamina

[spring dagger]

Kinda crap ngl

from the sounds of it it just seems like a redundancy based on how diets work now

[wise obsidian]

We dont know if it'll be good or bad until we see it released

[spring dagger]

We dont, but diets itself was kinda a shiteshow on release, i dont expect this to be any better but thats just me

[wise obsidian]

Filipe said that gore is not that hard to work with

So idk, we'll see

[spring dagger]

Again i aint too confident with things that are hard or easy to work with considering this game. They still can't get A.I right after like 7 years but we'll see.

[wise obsidian]

Amarok only recently joined the team compared to the game's lifetime

[spring dagger]

I know

But no pressure, taking on a feature incomplete game 7 years down the pipe

[dusky surge]

how? Seems like it encourages you to actually do stuff with your diets rather than travel the world for 3 very specific items repeatedly. At least migrations give you downtime

and you dont need to constantly seek out a new nutrient

[neon willow]

someone has got to do it. also, ai is really complicated and hard

[radiant jasper]

At night the ai spawn is terrible

Carno stomach is the size of the boar.Goat should give carno atleast 25%,boars 60% , deer 30%

Carno should not be able to eat 20 goats

[slim dragon]

Wake up
See a "eat grass and die" feedback
literally what I live for

[dusky surge]

a simple, happy life

[azure crescent]

truly the meaning of life

[twilit juniper]

50/50 though, Its gonna be a part of diets, but what actually gives you the protien or lipid will be the organs for carnis from the diet creature bodies

[azure crescent]

ok but it still isnt the gore itself giving the buffs, its the diets that come from the gore

[twilit juniper]

Yeah, thats why i think its 50/50

both gore and diets play a part in those small buffs

(im pretty sure theyre also seperate from the perk system)

[azure crescent]

yes