balance-feedback-discussion

[neon willow]

At least not anything in the current playable/released roster

[dusky surge]

utah is the best atm

in a decent pack, that is

[neon willow]

Agreed, and even as Utah's with a large pack, it takes forever to bleed them out, and you usually lose a handful of raptors because they are one tap if stegos use their tail attack

And even then... Utahs may target one stego. I'm a newer player, but I haven't yet played with a Utah pack brave enough to take on 2-3 adult stegos who can watch each other's weak spots

[carmine patrol]

that would be op, to balance it out they can make it so that the bigger it gets the more food it needs compared to it's weight and faster hunger drain

basically it slowly turns into a hypo

[azure crescent]

i love this idea

@pearl terrace gameplay > realism

[keen plover]

What's wrong with omnivore pachy gameplay wise though?

[pearl terrace]

i mean it would just mix up game play and really give people a reason to dislike pachy instead of just not like them cuz there dicks

[azure crescent]

what's wrong with pachys just being dicks

TI's pachy isn't built to be an omnivore

both design wise and gameplay wise

[pearl terrace]

theyd really only be able to eat small animals since there charge dosent do as much damage anymore and it took a health nerf

[pearl terrace]

my bad i miss read this didnt realize u were agreeing with lol

but theres evidence they were ominivores

[azure crescent]

i know, but that isn't a valid reason

there's also evidence spino had a newt type of tail and here we are

[pearl terrace]

they could do it they already kill babies as is just like pts

[azure crescent]

pachy didn't get a hp nerf

[pearl terrace]

just let em eat them

[azure crescent]

and?? herbivores are dicks

[pearl terrace]

yeah but if pachys are gonna be baby killers let em eat them

[azure crescent]

no?? we'll just get gangs of pachys killing everything they see

[pearl terrace]

they do that anyway

[azure crescent]

yeah but justifying it is worse

[pearl terrace]

dont really think it would change much with the current way there played though except just give them more flavor

[azure crescent]

but it doesn't need more flavor

[pearl terrace]

i see nothing wrong with it it wouldnt change pachy much

[azure crescent]

@zealous hawk you survived because it was a carno pack lmao

carnos suck at killing stegos

[zealous hawk]

Multiple. Like I killed over 20 carnos tonight. Also deinos and others

[azure crescent]

carnos still suck at killing stegos

deino isnt really made to kill stego either

[zealous hawk]

I just think it's ridiculously op. I dunno what should be done cause I'm not a game developer but wtf is the point of playing any other herbivore lol

[azure crescent]

the point is mobility and versatility

stego has almost none of those

and stego has the same stamina as carno

[zealous hawk]

Every creature should have a counter. Stego has 0 counter

[azure crescent]

bleed

and smart deino duos

[zealous hawk]

If you think it's balanced the way it is i dunno what to tell you

Cause it's just not. Not even close

[azure crescent]

you're not forced to fight stego, it is literally the easiest creature to avoid in the game

if you die to a stego either you engaged with it or it was speed hacking

[zealous hawk]

Breh I just ran up to them catching them off guard and killing about 3 of them in one swing. (This was no rules server) it was fun on my end but only because I knew how stupidly strong I was compared to them. Yeah if 2+ deinos somehow caught up to me that'd hurt but that situation is not often enough to balance them.

[azure crescent]

"them" being the carnos?

[zealous hawk]

Yee

I think i killed about 4 deinos.

[azure crescent]

those carnos were stupid then

you can hear stegos from a mile away

[zealous hawk]

They were stupid to stay in the area but I mean, people are also bored I guess.

Either way thats my balance feedback based on my experiences tonight is all.

[dusky surge]

stego is OP in the vacuum of the current roster. If rex was added, stego would be hot trash

[azure crescent]

stupid =/= unbalanced

[dusky surge]

so much so that the devs have confirmed stego will be receiving new attacks and buffs to compensate for the big apex predators that share the land

also i like how a ton of carnos threw themselves at non diet food that easily kills them and rightfully died

could've ignored them at any time

carnos chose to die

[azure crescent]

even with broken legs carnos can easily avoid stego

they're slightly faster than stego and have the same stam

[zealous hawk]

Are you a stego main

[azure crescent]

i main deino and teno

it's just common sense to stay away from stegos lmao

[dusky surge]

i honestly think using a ton of fool carnos committing cult suicide to appease the mighty stego gods as an indication of balance is ludicrous

carnos are not, and will never be, a worthy opponent for stego

[azure crescent]

the day that happens i will become clinically depressed

[dusky surge]

also stego can be escaped by every animal in the roster (besides landcrocs, which are already stupid)

[zealous hawk]

Its not just about carnos. I just feel like every creature should have a counter and stegos just don't. They are good at everything

[azure crescent]

sub land crocs are safe

they're faster than every stego

[dusky surge]

you can leave and they can never do anything, packs of coordinated utahs can dispatch them since the pounce was fixed

also 2 coordinated deinos easily thwomp stegs

[azure crescent]

^

[zealous hawk]

I don't agree.

[azure crescent]

even if a single deino gets in a specific spot in their legs you can kill a stego

if you get in that spot the stego gets stuck on you lmao

[dusky surge]

You can not agree all you want but I have the evidence of actually killing stegos using my mentioned strategies to back my argument

[azure crescent]

and every swing it does doesn't count as headshot

[zealous hawk]

I can also back my arguments. Thats just my opinion on stegos rn lol.

[dusky surge]

I find stegos play the valuable role of keeping deinos from being literal pests

[azure crescent]

^

[dusky surge]

U3 deino was a nightmare we should never have to endure again

[azure crescent]

you can disagree all you want, but there's quite a few strategies to kill stego as deino

[dusky surge]

at least stego bleeds

[zealous hawk]

If you can look at a stegos attack, defense, health and Stam and say yep that's a well balanced creature right there then we just gotta agree to disagree.

[azure crescent]

the stats alone don't determine balance

it has less hp than a deino, same stam as carno, and it has the worst speed on land apart from adult deino

[dusky surge]

deino has the best bite, health and bleed resist in the game, an entire unique ecosystem to itself, water sense, less headshot damage, better stealth, easier and more viable juvi/sub stages and an ability that can instakill over 2 thirds of the roster

stego has a big tail with big damage

deino, by far, has WAAAY more going for it

its only real "problem" is that stego exists to stop it from being an unbeatable god

[azure crescent]

1. use a duo where you take turns doing headshots, 3 headshots each deino is enough
2. get in that buggy spot i mentioned before
3. just gang up on it when it tries to drink or cross a water source

[azure crescent]

deino also has the easiest growth in the game apart from arguably ptera

[zealous hawk]

Okay lol

[dusky surge]

true

[zealous hawk]

Don't blame deinos for land ai being terrible

[dusky surge]

land AI???

[azure crescent]

eat big fish; keep eating until the fish is gone because deino can't vomit; go to secluded spot; wait on land; go get a drink; go back on land; grow to adult; profit

what the f*****ck does ai have to do with this

you can't swear in islecord apparently now

[dusky surge]

deino can't vomit, can hide from EVERY predator that isn't another deino

[azure crescent]

even then avoiding canni deinos isn't very hard

[zealous hawk]

You're complaining deinos have it easy growing, which isn't entirely true they have their own problems

[dusky surge]

very frustrating to my australian habits. I've had to rewrite so many messages today

[zealous hawk]

If ai was better for everyone growing wouldn't be as bad

[azure crescent]

same lmfao

[azure crescent]

eat big fish; keep eating until the fish is gone because deino can't vomit; go to secluded spot; wait on land; go get a drink; go back on land; grow to adult; profit

[dusky surge]

oh, deino's easy growth has very little to do with AI imho

it's got everything to do with the fact that big predator appears and it goes underwater till safe

[zealous hawk]

Yeah that is generally how it's done.

[azure crescent]

specially with juvie deino's superior vision, water sense, and dart speed/distance

[azure crescent]

yeah so how is it not easy

deino is an apex, it should have a hard time growing

[zealous hawk]

[dusky surge]

it's quite literally in the safest place in the game (besides the sky)

every animal that isn't its own stands no chance of predating it

[azure crescent]

out of 24 baby alligators, only 10 will make it to 1 year of age, and out of these 10, only 8 make it to 4 feet long, aka 1.5 meters~

[zealous hawk]

The safety it gets from the water is a trade off for being useless on land. Or at least it's meant to be only defensive on land

[azure crescent]

deino has crazy stealth on land

[dusky surge]

True, very low down

[azure crescent]

i unironically killed 3 utahs by waiting in a bush next to a spot in a river and running to them as sub deino

[zealous hawk]

And my baby deinos get killed plenty too just by being wrong place wrong time. And it'll get harder as more predators are put in I'd imagine

[azure crescent]

low down posture, generally good colors for camo

[azure crescent]

yes, and that's good

it's supposed to be hard

[zealous hawk]

I don't disagree. I never wanted the isle to be a bush simulator

But the state of their growth is not the players faults is all I'm saying. And deino mains have their own issues.

Most of which come up later in life admittedly

[azure crescent]

sure AI is somewhat needed because fish exist, but what does land AI have to do with it

[zealous hawk]

You wouldn't be complaining about deinos if others had the same opportunities I imagine

[azure crescent]

i mean yeah of course i'd complain about having the easiest growth in the game

why would i not complain lmao

[zealous hawk]

There's nothing hard about growing any dino imo. So long as you are lucky enough to get your first meal and fill up your cores you bush sit to victory.

And that's been how it's been since legacy

[half girder]

deino growth is easy asf lol

[zealous hawk]

I didn't say it was hard

I said it was easy because of abundance of ai

[half girder]

i mean, it needs something

[zealous hawk]

The game shouldn't be a starving simulator

I dunno what is with isle players and the mentality of its only good if everything is as tedious and painful as possible. There should be plenty of bunnies and deer running around for everyone to hunt ideally. Avoiding predators should be your biggest worry as a juvie imo. Starving should be a threat of course, and it always has been.

Maybe it gets better with more diet updates idk.

[half girder]

hopefully

the game is so boring rn, map wise

[zealous hawk]

And I mean deino may have fish to eat but it's not a thrilling existence and in the end it is a game which should be fun and challenging. Eating elite fish for 8 hours and then afking is not what I think most people want out of being a deino

Its just what yoh gotta do until you get at least 50%

[half girder]

i mean

i usually go on land and commit tom foolery

[zealous hawk]

I'd be happy if there was less fish but more land ai and that ai would come to water to drink so you had to hunt players and more sophisticated ai as a deino

That is my hope for baby deino in the long run. Plus then people can practice their lunges which is the funnest part of playing deino imo

[zealous hawk]

I do as well unless I'm super committed to becoming an adult lol. But spawning at center and running from corpse to corpse grabbing babies is something I often do for fun

[wheat ridge]

there is such a overpopulation of deinos on like every server, crocs also mostly dont kill other croc because they are mostly played by a specific group of people, there needs to be way less fish, less fish means more crocs need to cannibalize, more cannibals means less crocs and less crocs mean more viarity on land less more save river to drink more, which also means more land dinos drink more at rivers in high populated areas and crocs have more of a chance to catch someone while drinking, atm every dino is running to a non populated area to drink and croc barely see anyone drinking because the everyone knows the fucking rivers are polluted with tons of crocs

[zealous hawk]

Its hard to cannibalize without every deino in the area becoming triggered and ending you. Though this depends on the server you play on.

But yeah more incentive to cannibalize isn't a bad thing for deino

[wheat ridge]

they get mad because they will say "there is enough fish" and because tons of pacifist roleplayers play this dino, i always clean the river on 2 servers with 2 friends, killing every croc we find but in a few hours everything is full of crocs again becuase growing them is the easiest thing

[zealous hawk]

But at the same time people shouldn't be forced to either if that makes sense. Some deinos are really chill with other deinos and don't want to sit and heal so they look for better prey. That's not an unwise decision

[wheat ridge]

well then they should stop crying about not finding other dinos they can drag underwater, everyone just knows u can only drink from non populated areas

[zealous hawk]

Part of it is also all the fish seem to spawn in huge clumps in the same areas. I dunno why they aren't more spread out

[wheat ridge]

ye most fish is in high populated areas i noticed that

it should be spread out more

there is like 10 fish in center at the waterfall, like in a few meters

its hilarious

[zealous hawk]

The map is not used intuitively in almost every aspect of the game rn anyway so I guess it's just something that needs to be updated

[azure crescent]

hopefully velada and more semiaquatics come

velada cuz its better designed and semiaquatics to make deino growth harder

[azure crescent]

that's not what i meant by it should be harder lmao

[half girder]

what semi aquatic should it be?

[azure crescent]

@shell coyote carno's bloodpool is the same, bleed just drains faster

[azure crescent]

honestly austro or bary

austro for fresh spawn and hatchling deinos and bary for subs

[dusky surge]

me want beipi

[azure crescent]

eh, beipi is cool but i'll mainly use it to knock pteras off the air by dolphin jumping into them

[half girder]

i prob won’t be touching it

[dusky surge]

as you should

dude im so excited for more extra smalls

and beipi looks like it has REALLY fun movement

[half girder]

i want more mid tiers

[azure crescent]

beipi is really just a master of evasion in water, but it won't contribute to making deino's life harder by a lot

austro on the other hand has some decent attacks, and is large enough to take small deinos

[half girder]

beipi is a free deino snack

[azure crescent]

beipi gonna struggle with smaller deinos cuz they're stealthier

[half girder]

see it being fun to play for about a week

[azure crescent]

ye honestly beipi will only be fun in velada, because spiro's water is just trash

[half girder]

i just want allo

[azure crescent]

allo or alberto would be cool

[dusky surge]

austro deino food

personally, no real interest in mid-tiers

at least for now

i personally see more consistent enjoyment out of animals like finished hypsi, troodon and beipi

death is meaningless

[shell coyote]

well than they shoudl increase it for carno , righ now its rly bad

[azure crescent]

austro can jump far as f*ck and is faster on land than beipi

and austro can also see below the surface from land

[dusky surge]

yes, its still not killing any deinos

[azure crescent]

not adults, it's large enough to kick babies lol

[dusky surge]

its only 320kg and not designed for combat

[azure crescent]

yeah true, it's atleast strong enough to fend off a beipi, which isn't saying much but still

i just want my heron austro killing hatchlings

[half girder]

a pack of like 3 can take on a deino

baby deino

i don’t see them doing too much dmg at all

[azure crescent]

the biggest damage i can see them do is like 75 with their kick

what would be a good biteforce for austro?

[dusky surge]

eh

its probably living on a diet of schooling fish primarily

[azure hinge]

Idk I never found anything in the isle really that challenging to grow

[dusky surge]

speaking of, with the gore update, with designated piscivores like austro, would it make sense for it to be entirely capable of eating just fish for completed diets?

[azure hinge]

Just your play style or skill I guess

[true ginkgo]

Why has the pachy as omnivore suggestion got clown emojis? It's actually been suggested that they're omnivores irl.

i'd personally prefer them to stick as herbivores as more evidence points to that, but the negative reaction there is a tad agressive.

[azure crescent]

oh yeah for sure, but i can see it being like a heron where it just eats whatever tiny thing it finds

[dusky surge]

i mean, it may eat frogs or whatnot, sure

[azure crescent]

or semiaquatic hatchlings

[dusky surge]

but i really dont see it eating much else

[azure crescent]

like small beipis, deinos that came right out of the egg

[dusky surge]

like forcing a carnivorous hunting lifestyle on it seems unfair

[dusky surge]

thats too situational imho

[azure crescent]

oh yeah i know, just saying it might occasionally do that

[dusky surge]

its primarily designed first and foremost as fisher boy

[azure crescent]

mainly just fish though

[dusky surge]

but that's what I'm curious about

[azure crescent]

i do wonder though, how would its "fishing pounce" work on other playables?

[dusky surge]

Would it be a good idea for austro to have a diet almost entirely consistent of fish

[azure crescent]

would it even apply?

[dusky surge]

at least with beipi its more like fish + plant

[azure crescent]

i can see an austro preying on a beipi if it gets a good ambush

it's atleast seen fending off one so that's a start

[dusky surge]

my thing is i just dont see austro being near a competent hunter

like, idk man, sure, it's a carnivore

but it's kind of a one-trick fish pony

[azure crescent]

why would beipi be a hunter

do you mean austro?

[dusky surge]

me brain get confuse ez

[azure crescent]

ah alright

yeah i see your point, i just feel like it's inspired a lot by herons, so i'd like to fit in the "eats whatever small enough thing" type of lifestyle

[dusky surge]

i mean, sure

its just kind of one of the smallest animals in the game already

[azure crescent]

yeah that's fair

what would be a good biteforce for it?

we know it has a bite and a kick + the pounce thing, it's agile and fast, and a decent swimmer

[dusky surge]

i mean, i'd honestly give it a poor biteforce all things considered. I'd say 20-25

[azure crescent]

i see

[azure crescent]

and it can nullify deinos by seeing them coming

[dusky surge]

Again, it's designed for catching fish, like with sucho, bary and spino. The mouth is elongated and designed for catching, not crushing

[azure crescent]

i didn't mention combat

i just said its special ability was to see below the surface

it can practically avoid deinos for all its life is what i meant

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's also kinda weird that ptera has a 20 biteforce

so maybe 30 on austro

[azure crescent]

ptera has the highest biteforce proportionally speaking

[dusky surge]

ik

[azure crescent]

which is crazy

30 on austro sounds good

[dusky surge]

imagine quetz having the same proportional weight to damage ratio

genuine horror

[azure crescent]

111 biteforce with 250 kg

[dusky surge]

and if its 500kg, around 200-250

[azure crescent]

and 222 if we use the more recent estimates

this is using the exact same ratio so probably different

[dusky surge]

it likely will end up being 500kg since it's supposed to be viable lmao

and people HATE the idea of quetz being pinned

[azure crescent]

that was what i was about to say

[azure crescent]

@vapid fable it can 3 shot pachy and utah

and a headshot charge can 1 shot utah

and it does very well against tenos if you're smart

[somber sphinx]

If you ambush a teno with the charge then you have a huge advantage

[azure crescent]

yea

[idle delta]

@vapid fable
I would agree with the fact that the bleed resistance on carno was nerfed too harshly, and that the hunger drops way too fast in proportion with how much food it takes from a body. However, a carno can run very far with its low stam. When I sit down to regen my stam and never let it get below 50%, I can cross all of center in just a few minutes. Additionally, its speed allows it to catch up and attack its prey before its out of stam, and the prey cant just keep running away as a 175N jaw is tearing into its backside. A carno can solo 1-2 tenos, 2-3 utahs(With bleed now 4-5 utahs is simply too much), stegos, and dienos(if they dont run into the water).
Its bite force is plenty strong at the moment, and its ability extremely useful if you ambush. You just have to fight with it right

[true ginkgo]

@zealous hawk you're complaining that an apex level animal can kill animals which are barely into mid tier, and are dedicated small prey hunters?

like sure i think that stego shouldn't even be in game until larger predators like acro and rex are in. but stego being able to easy wreck carnos isn't op.

it's just an animal which shouldn't be playable yet

[vapid fable]

2 competent utahs will 100% kill a equally competent carno, they can avoid damage with agility easily long enough for the carno to be low on stam, at that point the carno can't choose to run away, not to mention it is very easy for utah to keep up with carno even at full stam

im not saying carno needs to be able to take on 4-5 utahs, definitely not, but carnos stam is so terrible at the moment it's lost its defining feature

[azure crescent]

1. carno's crouching bleed multiplier was unchanged 2. utah is 3 shot by carno

and it's also 1 shot with a headshot charge, or a normal charge combo

it's defining feature is its speed

[hasty coyote]

My only issue with buffing carno stam is pachy. Body fractures already feels bad, more stam just makes the body fracture basically useless.

[vapid fable]

how often can you charge and hit a utah? especially in an open combat

[hasty coyote]

crouching and standing have the same multiplier, so it was changed

[vapid fable]

if a utah gets charged, that's bad play on the utah

[azure crescent]

i never counted it but i usually hit atleast a charge if its like 4 utahs

[azure crescent]

you die to 2 utahs, that's a bad play on you

[vapid fable]

yeah that's charging into a crowd

[azure crescent]

ah, but crouching still turns faster so it's good for defensive play

[vapid fable]

ill be more than happy to fight you as 2 utahs, never failed that fight

[azure crescent]

well i'm not 2 people

in case you haven't noticed

[vapid fable]

im saying ill be utah, with a friend

[hasty coyote]

I'm not saying crouching is a bad play, but it doesnt lower bleed.

[azure crescent]

sure thing, i suck as carno cuz i main deino and teno tho

what server

[vapid fable]

and you be carno, i will take you down 100% of the time

[azure crescent]

yea i know now, ty

[vapid fable]

point is, a competent carno vs 2 competent utahs, it will lose

[azure crescent]

what server

[frail bobcat]

the main issue for carnos bad bleed is the food situation now

[azure crescent]

i'm willing to do what you suggested

^

[vapid fable]

what server do you have a carno on

[azure crescent]

we can play on a free admin server

[frail bobcat]

just play on scope or something like that

[azure crescent]

is taco island still a thing?

[frail bobcat]

it is

[azure crescent]

great

opening the game rn

[vapid fable]

alright, we'll do it when i get home, tonight, 8pm cst goodm

[azure crescent]

ah alr

what's your timezone

[vapid fable]

cst

[azure crescent]

that's 1 am in my timezone

damn

[vapid fable]

wait

oh you're in eu?

[azure crescent]

yeah

[vapid fable]

we'll see when we're both on then

[azure crescent]

sure thing

[idle delta]

No. A skilled carno can use alt bite when the utahs try to attack, or use buck until the utah is low stam or out of stam, causing them to fall off and be easily killed. A carno can turn based on where the utah is headed and get at least a tailbite or even a body bite. You could also bait a pounce and then hit them during the stun time. You could also disengage with the speed carno has to turn around and ram one of the utahs.

Stam is always important in a fight. You can outstam any dino if you know how to play it right. A good example of this is baiting out special attacks as carno against a teno till its out of stam, then swooping in for the kill.

I love carno in evrima, its the dino i main due to its ability to fight anything with the right skill. I hate being bled out while im still at 95% hp, but if carno is buffed too much pvp wise, skill will be less needed, and it will become less enjoyable. The only buff carno needs is a slower food-depletion rate and a bleed resistance buff so it can be a bit more proportional with its hp and size

[azure crescent]

why was rap's suggestion downvoted?

[silk harness]

@hasty coyote I mostly agree with your main point, but balancing pachy's damage is really tricky. It does sound a little strange when you realize pachy's alt attack does less than utah's standard attack, but the reason for that is because it's not just a raw damage move, it's a knockdown/stun. So that 60 damage turns into roughly 180 damage since you can reliably land 2 more alt attacks while the utah is on the ground. I think buffing ram damage might be safer. Again, it isn't actually 5 rams to kill a utah since you also knock it down and can land more hits, but it should be more punishing to get hit by a ram as utah

[hasty coyote]

either: A they think bone breaks are impactful enough
or B they want to nerf utah
or C they play utah

[azure crescent]

150 ram damage sounds good to me, as it's lower than before and higher than now

[silk harness]

I was also thinking 150. 3 shots utah, sounds perfect imo

[frail bobcat]

180 damage means it needs 3 knockdowns to kill an utah. it needs two pounces to kill a pachy

[azure crescent]

pachy should be the counter to utah, not the other way around

[frail bobcat]

this

[silk harness]

Pounce is a far bigger resource commitment then the tiny bit of stam for an alt attack. Pachy's buck drains utahs full stam bar in a few seconds

[hasty coyote]

I still really dislike the idea of just buffing ram. It makes it too good against larger targets. I'd rather have a separate attack that deals damage made specifically against smaller targets like dilo and smaller

[frail bobcat]

the alt attack is harder to hit

I would be fine with 100 damage, 1 knockdown and you are out of the fight. If you have packmates to back you up its fine, if you dont, you run

[silk harness]

I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing alt attack's startup lag. It is a little hard to hit

[hasty coyote]

although yes, I understand the cc makes up for it somewhat, it still takes 3 knockdowns to kill a utah, as well as a large chunk of your stam. utahs also have the agility and speed to bait out attacks and go in when the pachy starts using attacks more sparingly

[hasty coyote]

that just makes alt too good tho, you wouldn't be able to attack a pachy at all unless you make pounce take prio over alt.

[frail bobcat]

and that would make the problem even worse

[silk harness]

Startup lag but not endlag. Utah would still be able to sneak in hits at the end of an alt attack if the pachy is like spamming it

[hasty coyote]

Pachy's issue is not landing the hits, its the fact that pachy lacks the damage to end the fight quickly. You can spend a lot of your stam and finally break the utah, but it doesnt have to leave unless it wants to. The fight only ends when the utah dies, but utah likes longer fights and pachy lacks the damage to end it quickly

[hasty coyote]

that doesnt matter if the pachy can just time its hits, plus the end lag is very slim as it is. decreasing the startup means you have less chance to react quickly enough to get a hit in without being hit back

[silk harness]

The endlag leaves just enough time to sneak in a hit, I've done it and had it done to me plenty of times. Also decreasing the startup slightly doesn't make the pachy immune to being baited into doing it anyways. And I do agree that pachy needs more damage in some form, but disagree that landing hits isn't currently an issue. A good utah will never get hit by a ram if it isn't a sneak attack, so that leaves alt attack which is fairly inconsistent to hit rn

Half the time I hit/get hit by an alt attack, it's a tail shot. Which points to the startup being too slow

I'd say more than half really, at least when I'm on the utah side of the matchup

[hasty coyote]

I norm play pachy, and I haven’t had much issues hitting utahs, especially with alts. If a utah can bait my attacks, then that’s fine. Utah is supposed to be more about baiting and not getting hit. My issue is that the hits themselves are not impactful enough. The utah can run faster, dodge attacks, tank attacks, and deal more damage. Pachy is currently being forced to break and run from everything, when it should be able to kill things it’s own size.

[silk harness]

If you're not having trouble landing hits then you should be consistently winning against 1-2 utahs, even with the current damage values. Idk if you believe pachy should be winning vs. 3+, but I personally don't. My main issues with pachy are stamina consumption which ties in with missing attacks. It really does struggle in those long, drawn out fights, and I think lower stam consumption on attacks paired with more damage on the ram would be the best way to fix that. Making alt attack easier to land would also help with stam management and shortening fights.

I do also agree that downwards ram should be turned into some sort of combo move after a knockdown, but I haven't thought much on the details of that

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message i think buffing the headbutt very slightly is fine, 15 headbutts to kill a carno isnt bad at all

buffing alt bite would just not be it since its cc and can be spammed faster than any other alt attack in the game as of now, buffing downward slam would be nice but that'll only solve half of it

[hasty coyote]

If you make it 15, then that means you would buff the ram to deal roughly 125 damage. Which means it still takes 4 charged rams to kill a utah.

[half girder]

which is better than 5

what would the downward slam dmg be?

[hasty coyote]

While the alt bite can be spammed quickly, I'm not suggesting buffing it to anything insane. Prob more like 75-80 instead of 60. that way you deal half of utah's hp when you spam it while they are down (norm about 3 hits, so 225-240 respectively).

and what is the other half of the issue? my only problem with the matchup currently is pachy's lack of damage.

[half girder]

why not just buff the headbutt?

[hasty coyote]

I'd say somewhere around 150. It puts you in the stun animation for a bit and leaves you open for counter attack by another utah and gives the first a chance to escape.

[half girder]

spamming alt bite sounds cringe

[idle delta]

What else do you do when a dino is stunned

[hasty coyote]

A: I would prefer pachies to have to choose whether to break or deal damage to smaller targets. If you just want to break and run, use ram. If you need to kill them, use alt/headslam.
B: It makes the headbutt have too much: massive stun/knockdown range, heavy fracture damage, and damage seems like too much. Similarly to how teno had been changed so it has different uses for each of its abilities, which made it much more balanced ever since (much better than spamming 1 move because its just objectively better than everything else)
C: Buffing ram damage makes it better at killing things larger than itself. To make it impactful enough to be equal or greater than utah pounce, it then is equal or greater against larger things too. Its why people complained that pachy scaled better in packs than utah did.

[half girder]

move away and go for another ram

[idle delta]

Then do that

You have two choices, damage or restun

[half girder]

brainless gameplay isnt fun

[idle delta]

If your a carno and you ram a dino its smarter to deal dmg while you can than turn around and try again.
Spamming rams is not that different from spamming alt bite except you turn around and repeat

[half girder]

reposition and fracture vital parts not spamming one button like m1 carnos

[hasty coyote]

Its what I have been doing since pachy's release, unless I wanted to ram. Plus, i like that you just keep smacking them while they're down, its a bit more scary when you have to sit there and see something try to turn you into a paste.

[half girder]

plus by the time u recover from a downward slam a utah can get bites in even with a pounce

[idle delta]

It depends what your fighting. When your fighting a bunch of utahs, its smarter to deal dmg when you can than to try to keep headbutting. When your fighting carno, getting fractures is crutial and repeating those headbutts in the places you know you need to hit is a better option

[half girder]

its like a trade off with teno kick

[dreamy fiber]

Bruh no, pacts are scary as a utah. It takes pachy more raw hits, but they can chain hits and cause fractures which can just straight up remove the utahs ability to pounce or even run

If you die to a solo utah as a solo pachy you honestly suck badly

[half girder]

mmm idk about that

[hasty coyote]

it may not be fun to you, but it has its place. not every dino in this game should require intense game knowledge to play. Some should just be easy to pickup for newer players.

[idle delta]

That is rly true, its more for 4+

[dreamy fiber]

Pachy crumps utahs hard. Pachys are even punished less for missing headbutt. If a utah missed its pounce on a pachy its practically dead

[half girder]

lmao

[fresh laurel]

Pachys get baited easily by utahs ngl

[hasty coyote]

and personally would MUCH prefer the headslam, but I know it could be difficult to balance a new attack and some people dislike the idea of it. That is why I offered 2 solutions that are equally viable

[half girder]

seems u havent been playing this update

[grave veldt]

lol what

[dreamy fiber]

Or if you pounce a pachy head on it can literally just break the pounce.

[grave veldt]

recovery is literally like less then a second

[half girder]

living in update 4

smh

[hasty coyote]

they both have the same recovery time, and roughly the same ease of using an attack

[half girder]

utah's is faster

[grave veldt]

utah literally just has the advantage

[idle delta]

I agree brainless gameplay is lame, and every feature that makes dinos more skill based I approve of. But its not brainless to choose the most effective way to kill something

[hasty coyote]

also, a missed ram could mean pachy is potentially dead, I put the numbers out there.

[idle delta]

Ive bled out pachy as a solo utah, it isnt that hard if you are careful and bait right.

[grave veldt]

i just did this like 2 days ago its rly not even that hard

[half girder]

u can literally face tank a pachy for a automatic pounce, i do it all the time

[grave veldt]

^

[dreamy fiber]

A missed pachy ram doesn't kill the pachy unless the pachy is low of things.
Now, a second of recovery is evry short. If a utah is running away, and the pachy behind misses, by the time you turn to punish a pachy can already headbutt again.

[grave veldt]

only the ram knocks utah out of pounce but u can just abit that out

[half girder]

no matter what the pachy is bleeding

[idle delta]

Yeah

[dreamy fiber]

And you'll go straight into it's face and your pounce will break

[half girder]

fighting pachys is just unfun

[grave veldt]

same with utah

misses pounce and it can run off pretty easily

[idle delta]

I think they need to make it so utah pounce cannot reg on dinos face's. It doesnt make sense a utah can latch onto a biting dino's head and teleport to its side

[half girder]

maybe carnos would die less to pachys if they played a stealth dino the way its meant to be played

[grave veldt]

^ main issue imo

i dislike face pouncing a lot

[hasty coyote]

the only way pachy ram is better than utah pounce is the rare leg break., otherwise a pounce screws pachy over even more than ram does utah

[dreamy fiber]

Which is fine. This should be the case. The difference here is the difference in gameplay. A pachy needs to stand and fight, so it will chain attacks.
A utah can't chain pounces in the same manner, so it missing is a bigger risk for the utah than the pachy - as it should be

[half girder]

hitboxes for pachy are also so busted

fix one thing to break another

[hasty coyote]

except that those chain hits do equal or less than a single pounce

[grave veldt]

^

[dreamy fiber]

A leg break or a head fracture will both be fine
And neither of those are rare. I've been in plenty of pachy fights and someone always gets something bust

Though I generally find that bad pachys just end up crimping each other

[grave veldt]

yea but they dont discourage anything thats the problem

body fractures still let utah pounce

same with head

[dreamy fiber]

They do more than a pounce because the pounce is focused on bleed damage, its an entirely different way of fighting which isn't entirely comparable in raw damage terms.

[half girder]

pachy doesnt live up to what it was meant to be

[dreamy fiber]

A crumped utah will then get 2/3 extra hits on it. Not only is thst a lot of damage, you won't walk out of thst without some kind of fracture

[grave veldt]

pachy is generally supposed to be a counter to utah

[half girder]

pachy was also allowed to brawl certain mid tiers

[dreamy fiber]

And it can. Incredibly well.
Y'all don't give pachy enough credit

[half girder]

just like utah can fight anything

not saying pachy should go beyond anything 3 tons

[dreamy fiber]

It can't fight two utahs as well, but a pachy should ideally seek out friends so that it isn't faced with a 1vmany situation

[grave veldt]

carno is probably the only thing it generally would have to fight other mid tiers are fine killing pachy easily

[dreamy fiber]

Utah pounce, however, is op imo. The pachy is not the problem.

[half girder]

allo would DESTROY pachy

[grave veldt]

theres only 3 mid tier carnivores anyways

[half girder]

cera would wipe it out

[dreamy fiber]

A pachy shouldn't try to fight a darned allo

[hasty coyote]

I am comparing them based on % of the damage they deal. A single pounce drops a pachy to 40% (+/- about 10%) bleed on average (which screws over your stam too). 2 pachy rams drop utah to 55% and can give 1-2 breaks

[half girder]

one missed headbutt is -90% HP

[grave veldt]

anyways i just hope they do something with pachy's down headbutt so it actually has some use

currently it just opens coconuts which is fine but if they want to keep it that way i would remove the stamina cost

[dreamy fiber]

And in that scenario the pachy lives. The utah isn't fighting with the fractures.

And if they do they're confident. And if the pachy continues to engage well, that's the pachys decision

[half girder]

if a utah doesnt get leg its fighting

[dreamy fiber]

The utah pounce should receive a nerf, not pachy a buff.

[half girder]

head fracture, it will still fight

[dreamy fiber]

The utah pounce is a problem for a number of dinos, not just pachy

[half girder]

not really

cuz when u buck it off u then have to use hella stam

[hasty coyote]

Pachy can still fight utah, don't get me wrong. however, the fight favors utah currently instead of pachy. That is my issue. I have fought and killed a pack of 3 utahs alone, but thats because they were absolutely terrible.

[half girder]

had no prob with carno so far fighting utahs, teno is abit hard but still gets the job done

[dreamy fiber]

A pachy should be capable of a solo fight with a utah on even ground. And it feels that way to me. I don't think it should be fighting off hordes alone.

[dreamy fiber]

Bruh you buck

[half girder]

utah should fear pachy

[dreamy fiber]

Mistake

[half girder]

rn its the other way round

[dreamy fiber]

I fear pachy as a utah ngl. The only way I get them is with an ambush, which is as it should be

[half girder]

utah is def the dom of this update, i have only been fighting my own kind more than anything else

[dreamy fiber]

I fear pachy more than Carno teno and stego as a utah player

[half girder]

i fear stegos as utah

[dreamy fiber]

Nah stegos are ez

[half girder]

the very fun and balanced hitbox of its swing

[dreamy fiber]

Well ya you do have to contend with hit boxes, but the pattern is so obvious it's painful

[half girder]

killing stegos as teno is fun

[hasty coyote]

utahs can and have fought with fractures. I have hit utahs multiple times, but they keep going because they only got a body fracture, and theres nothing I can do to stop them. Plus, you're not taking mobility into account. Pachy has worse turning and worse speed, and utahs can juke pachy's predictable attacks easily. so a utah is not going to easily tank 2 rams. most the time you just hit an alt into a ram and get a body fracture

[half girder]

utahs even fight with leg ^still doing 65 dmg

[dreamy fiber]

If your attacks are predictable thsts a you issue. I haven't been able to duke a single decent pachy yet I can readily take on anything else in the game.

Although that might also partly be down to the utahs long hit box

[hasty coyote]

Most utahs I have seen run with a leg fracture, its stops pounce and makes them unable to hit without being hit back. I will concede that leg fracture is strong enough (a bit op until fracture severity comes), but you don't always get it.

[half girder]

when that comes pachy will be in the grave

good thing ill have allo to main

[hasty coyote]

That depends on how they do them. i doubt pachy will have hit hit multiple times to give more than a light fracture on most its predators

[dreamy fiber]

Well you shouldn't always get a leg fracture. Legit the reason I fear pachy is because on RNG bad hit ends the fight. I don't fight like a loonatic until certain death

A lot of people on official do but you gotta learn to deal with them

[half girder]

goofy hitboxes plus tiers

sounds like a dead playable

meanwhile utahs will be taking down rexes

[dreamy fiber]

That's cuz utah is dondis favourite child.
But it does need a nerf on the bleed.

[half girder]

biased devs?

[dreamy fiber]

I mostly feel bad for tenos with the bleed cause they kinda suck against raptors

[half girder]

teno honestly needs a bleed res

just look at its hide

i think a 10% res would be nice

ruthless stallion

[dreamy fiber]

Tenos would have less of a problem if the pounce was less instantly magnetic. A teno will miss a claw attack it the raptor is brave enough to just dive on.

[hasty coyote]

I mean moreso that rams are predictable, so you cant use them as the first hit. And baiting out an alt attack drains a good chunk of stam too, and potentially give you a free bite.

[half girder]

headbutt dmg buff to 120 is fine, 12 hits to kill a carno was also fine

[dreamy fiber]

Stop being predictable and bait able. Most pachy I run into actually just kinda suck at being pachy
But honest to god okay
We had a raptor pack of about 6 and were a highly coordinated pack.
one pachy put four out of the fight in the first minute. Sadly the pachy still died but the fight was like 10 minutes long between the remaining folk

[half girder]

balance rn is poopy

[dreamy fiber]

That's all because the pachy was smart enough to use Bush cover and would mislead us with the blood trail. Best pachy fight I ever saw

[half girder]

no shot lmao

my fights only last for like 1-2 mins 😦

and thats cuz i tank headbutts and get easy pounce

[dreamy fiber]

Most fights we have are short too. That one was exceptional and incredibly fun. Not enough people use the Bush cover well

[half girder]

we need something new dude, game is so dry rn

i really want a new map sooo bad

[tall bronze]

[dreamy fiber]

Honestly a new map wouldnt fix any of the current issues tho. I'd rather see a new playable

Or

Even better

optimisation

[half girder]

idk, map is so barren

feels so dead and the lazy ass center river is extra

[dreamy fiber]

Ah I love the map. I hate the pits and hidden cliffs but I find the landmarks really easy to navigate

Versus legacy where I was just lost all the time lol

[half girder]

legacy was more fun to travel, hell even thenyaw

[dreamy fiber]

I hated the legacy maps ngl

[half girder]

loved thenyaw

really cozy map

[hasty coyote]

A: I'm not saying "UtHaS BaIt OuT EvErY AtTaCk!!!! I cAn'T PlAy Da GaMe!!!!!" I'm saying that a good utah can bait out quite a few attacks, especially at the start of the fight and you don't know their patterns. Pachy's attacks also have a good amount of startup, so the utahs have to come to you to actually hit them. They can use that to their advantage and bait out some early attacks, land a pounce, and regen stamina while the pachy has to try and recover bleed.

B: the pachy may have been able to get a fracture or decent damage on some of you, but it lacked the damage to kill you. That pachy also likely burnt through the majority of its stam right there. I have been in a similar fight (was a 1v4ish tho) broke quite a few utahs as I ran into the forest. They only hit 1 pounce, but by the time i managed to heal, I had like 40% bleed and virtually no stam. Sadly i died to a cliff i was hiding next to before i could get away.

[azure hinge]

I agree legacy map was a million times better

[frail bobcat]

@tranquil junco is there a chance you were low on food/water/stam the moment you got pounced? and carno needed a nerf, maybe not the food intake one but the bloodpool one for sure

[tranquil junco]

i was full perfect diet

[frail bobcat]

did you run around?

[tranquil junco]

i was just needed water i was 60%

nope there was a cliff raptor waited and bited me 4 times then left me

i did lay 5 seconds and stand still

[frail bobcat]

and how do you know it was a 30% stam pounce?

[tranquil junco]

it was soo quick its maybe 4-3 seconds long

[frail bobcat]

that is a big pounce

how heavy was your carno?

[azure crescent]

if you bucked during that it’s like 70% stam

[slender kettle]

@fiery ruin a better way to word that would probably be to fix the growth rates

[keen plover]

80% dinos should be running significantly faster than 100% dinos. For most species, you're generally slower or marginally faster

[azure hinge]

just sounds like an unneeded mechanic tbh

[idle delta]

@tranquil junco Sub-adult dinos have much lower weights than the full grown versions. A 60% stego can be taken down by a solo carno, while a 80% stego cant be killed by 6.
Its just how it works growth-wise. However, if you bucked and chased it, there is nearly no possible way I could imagine it getting you. I havent experienced a 80%vs utah fight as carno, but as a 100% you can take down 3-4 adult utahs fairly easily.

[half girder]

come over then

[slim dragon]

@slender kettle Deino isn't an apex and doesn't focus on pure raw damage. Besides, bite damage in the game is untied from the irl animal's biteforce and rex could very well deal more damage than deino with a bite since its bite is actually a tool used to kill, as opposed to deino's bite which is used to grab prey.

[somber sphinx]

and deino isnt supposed to go after things over 4 tons

[south wyvern]

was just about to say that. evrima isnt legacy and also a game doesnt always follow reality

most people play Deino wrong though. They just dont get that it's an ambush predator not meant to fight bigger dinos.

also hoping the devs dont increase AI too much. i want starvation to actually be a threat in the game and competition between players, even herbis, for food.

[somber sphinx]

Same, I wish there were competition agains herbies for food

[south wyvern]

yah a lot of people just want food to be readily available so they can chill out. pretty fucking boring game if you ask me, especially for a "hardcore horror survival"

[somber sphinx]

Indeed

[south wyvern]

really hoping the devs dont listen to most of the community for that

[somber sphinx]

Yeah I teel like no animal should be safe, herbivores should have competition against each other so that there isn’t a mix herd of herbies that no carnis can hunt

[ocean sentinel]

If you want starvation to be a legitimate threat, then why not make AI harder to catch rather than just making it rarely spawn?

That way the threat from starvations comes from repeated failure hunting rather than just walking around for an hour and not finding enough food.

The AI could be made to try to dodge attacks when being chased rather than just running in staightline away from the player. Or they could have their attack options improved.

I agree with you that carnivores shouldn't just be getting free food, but I think just making AI rare and provide little is a bad way to go about it.

[tight cove]

Deino is absolutely an apex just off of its weight alone.

I just hope they give rex at least 1k dmg per bite 🤷‍♂️

[azure hinge]

Idk how people still try to justify that stego isn't OP in some way

[pastel kite]

Deinos are apex predators, weight and health show that it is.

[tight cove]

The fact that stegos kill themselves from boredom shows how unbalanced they are

[ocean sentinel]

Remember the Isle is a horror game

[azure hinge]

Yeah and stego is the largest threat

😂

[ocean sentinel]

So naturally stego should have nothing to fear.

[pastel kite]

Not necessarily

[ocean sentinel]

I was joking

[azure hinge]

It was a good joke don't worry

[clever tiger]

yall are gonna straight up end up crying over the next biggest thing added anyways so whats the point?

there's always going to be something bigger and stronger

[ocean sentinel]

Even if nothing in the current roster is meant to kill stego later on, they could still nerf for the time being

[azure hinge]

No as long as it makes sense

Like idk anyone that complained about rex legacy

Except other rex players

[clever tiger]

stego being strong makes sense, did you know everything in the game can out run it, so if you die to one its your fault lol?

[azure hinge]

Lol so make deino op then

Everything can out run deino

Great logic my boy

[tight cove]

lol another person saying "just walk away" 💀

[azure hinge]

😂

[ocean sentinel]

That's not the point, it is a playable animal that has nothing to fear, in a horror game.

[clever tiger]

point is more people cry no matter what and you sound like malding children because your zerg dino group can't down a stego

mald seethe cope and all that

[azure hinge]

No because it is OP in a game that is meant to be like an ecosystem

That's why people are crying

[clever tiger]

because the roster is so small? two dinos in the game arent even fully implemented?

[hasty coyote]

our main issue is that everything we currently have in the game is made to struggle against stego.
hypsi dryo and pt do too little damage to do anything
Pachy gets stunned for hitting stego
carno struggles against things in mid-tier, let alone an apex

So deino and utah are our best options, but they generally struggle for other reasons
Deino is an apex built to punch down, so its good at ambushing and killing everything under 4 tons, but starts to struggle against anything bigger.
Stego is the 2nd worst thing for utahs to fight because it has wide reaching attacks that will 1-shot utahs and a lot of hp (only anky is worse because its even more tanky)

[clever tiger]

you're acting like you are forced to fight a stego which is funny

yeah and when the next thing gets added you'll cry about it too

[azure hinge]

Yeah because they chase us down

[clever tiger]

guaranteed

[azure hinge]

I play herbie and get killed by stegos

[hasty coyote]

we can't add anything that would reliably kill stegos either, they would have nothing else to eat and would likely just become the new stego.

[tight cove]

stego is legit on utah's diet wtf? 🤣

[clever tiger]

I play herbie and carni and i dont die to adult stegos because i dont try to fight adult stegos

[hasty coyote]

utahs can still defintely hunt stegos, but its difficult

[clever tiger]

not hard, it takes the longest to grow

[ocean sentinel]

Again, I already said it can be nerfed for the time being an buffed again when more powerful roster members are added later. The lack of apex predators in the roster isn't an excuse.

[tight cove]

yeah very difficult

[hasty coyote]

plus, small roster and carni diet was a temporary thing before gore

[pastel kite]

Utahs can take stegos, although best bet is bleeding it out

[clever tiger]

literally no one will play it then because it cant escape anything

but yeah if you have a fgroup of utahs with half a brain you can take out stegos

[ocean sentinel]

It would still be able to fight.

[tight cove]

utah is the only thing in the game that can kill stegos but if its a good stego its gonna be super hard to kill it

[hasty coyote]

as it should be, its still an apex getting hunted by things not even 1/10th of its weight that it counters pretty hard

[pastel kite]

If the Utah’s in your pack are good, then it’s possible, I’ve done it with a pack of 6

[clever tiger]

like i said im not complaining about stegos because i avoid the adults and leve them in the dust

sounds like salty carni mains that are mad they cant eat this specific thing without putting in effort

[pastel kite]

If you leave stegos alone, you will survive

[clever tiger]

y e s

thats why nerfing them would be pointless

stego adult gameplay is already boring and you have to rely on idiots challenging you to see any action

[hasty coyote]

however, I do agree that stegos should not have been added this early on, but neither should have deino

[clever tiger]

if you fight them you're giving them that action

[clever tiger]

yeah the picks were awful, no one touch dryo because they cant burrow, hypsi is only picked because you can skip growing but they cant climb either

[pastel kite]

Stegos also cannot outstam almost everything, so yeaaa

[azure hinge]

doesnt deino take longer to grow?

[pastel kite]

4hrs pretty sure, stego takes 5

[clever tiger]

i thought stego was longest at 4.5 hours with regular diet

[tall bronze]

Stego and Deino are both around 5 hours.

[golden coral]

This. The main issue with stego is that the things in game are trash at fighting it, as they should be. Stego isn't "OP" any more than deino is, both of them are basically only afraid of their own kind. Deino is also basically immune to everything else, since there's nothing else large enough in/around the water to fight them.

[clever tiger]

longer with poor diet shorter with great diet

[hasty coyote]

dryo is getting burrow in... ??? its on the "doesnt matter" list
Hypsi is going to get climbing when herrera comes, which shouldnt be too long at least

[golden coral]

Both stego and deino grow at the same rate I believe. How easy/hard it is depends on how you go about it and what you encounter on the way.. :p

[ocean sentinel]

Deino honestly shouldn't have been implemented without some kind of smaller semi-aquatic to hunt juvis and regulate it's population being added first.

[clever tiger]

i hope soon because dryo diet for carnis is non existant with ai

[pastel kite]

I think they could add a predatory ai fish, like how legacy has velos

[hasty coyote]

last time i heard any talk on dryo, the devs essentially said "its good enough as it is and can escape its predators, so its on the backburner"

[clever tiger]

but yeah I'm definitely okay with where stegos are now because they are boring as f once you're adult, vulnerable during growth, and you can run from them easily

[ocean sentinel]

Deino and stego both feel a bit outside the ecosystem at times.

[clever tiger]

next thing will get added and soon they wont be a problem

[clever tiger]

lmao, explains why i rarely ever run into dryo players, even before the ai was removed every dryo i came across was a bot

[tight cove]

the 2 closest dinos where gonna get it seems like is troodon and bepi and ngl there not gonna do anything 😭

[hasty coyote]

not to stego, but it will make the small tiers have new prey and predators. hordes of troos are going to be scary

[clever tiger]

I dont mean literally next but the next couple of dinos have a better chance than what we got now

[golden coral]

They are. Stegos do not fit in the current system at all, and on top of that, they're.. lacking in the playable department I'd say. Deino could fit if we downsized it to 4T, since it.. just does what it normally does. But deino could also get more stuff and be a more fun playable.

[clever tiger]

if they brought back mud at rivers deino would be a lot better off

but now their gameplay can be boring

[golden coral]

I'd take out stego for now, put deino at 4T and work from there. But for one reason or another, taking out stego is just.. not acceptable, unfortunately.

[tight cove]

i agree, for the first few weeks theres gonna be massive troodon hordes but then after the hype calms down there probably only gonna be as common as hypsi is.

[clever tiger]

I also believe that stegos should give more than one diet for carnis, to reward the hunt of bigger dinos

[ocean sentinel]

I'd honestly rather have Deino be the 14-15+ ton monster the real Deinosuchus Hatcheri was, but have it's growth process be such a gauntlet due to all the semi-aquatic predators that if you manage to reach 100% you would've genuinely earned it.

[clever tiger]

all in all they can focus in more on balance when the roster is bigger, because right now asking for adjustments all the time will just call for the buff or nerf of something else

[silk harness]

@slender kettle Rex will definitely have way more than 500n biteforce. I don't think a lot of people consider that the only reason deino has such low biteforce is to encourage its lunge/drown mechanic. If deino had 1200+ biteforce, it could just pop out and 1-2 shot all of its current prey. There would be no need to waste the time and stamina on drowning prey. Maybe some people would prefer that, but I think you'd lose the feeling of playing as an actual alligator.

[golden coral]

I honestly don't think rex basic bite force will be that high, since it most likely will also get some fancy way to kill stuff.

[hasty coyote]

There is a decent sized group of people willing to play troo.
hypsi's issue is the fact that it doesnt have climbing, spit is extremely unreliable, super jump doesnt help at all, ity has no combat potential, its slow, and its not agile. so it literally has nothing going for it other than "insta grow, small, and looks cute"

troodon also has a very unique gameplay with venom, mimicking, and hordes being easy to amass, and will have humans to mess with too

[golden coral]

No doubt it'd be a bit higher than 500, but probably not as high as people might think or expect

[silk harness]

Yeah I don't think rex will have exactly 1200 like in legacy. Probably more like 700-900

[tight cove]

honestly they could just temporarily reduce the size of stego and deino until larger stuff comes in.

[clever tiger]

they did mention dinos wont 100% reflect their real world estimates, but I'm okay with a rex being a terror. Are they still sticking with it being ai? or playable though?

[tight cove]

true

[silk harness]

9 ton rex would be both realistic and a terror

[hasty coyote]

It will be playable, but may be ai on release until we get more apexes

[golden coral]

I would limit their sizes down to about 4T, reduce the growth time a bit, and work on making both playables more fun and properly "difficult" rather than just hard to take out. And make it very clear in an announcement that this is only temporary and in the future, the current predators will not be hunting either of these two critters.

[clever tiger]

sick, good

[clever tiger]

oh definitely, i just know isle tries to nerf them a bit even though a rex in the area should scare most non apexes off from trying to fight it. Just once again I know people will cry about it too whenever it does get implemented

[hasty coyote]

I remember them essentially saying recently: every dino will be playable (except ptero and compy maybe), but some may not be playable on official

[clever tiger]

I really hope its a case of just officials only. I know people would really enjoy being able to play any dino they want so as long as unofficials have the options thats good to me

[ocean sentinel]

Pretty sure they could past the 10 ton mark

[hasty coyote]

yeah they said officials specifically because they meant certain things will only be playable on unofficial

[tall bronze]

Another neat thing is that it's also been said all playables will be given proper love and care regardless of their official-server status. So none of legacy's "survival vs sandbox dinos" with horrible imbalances or straight up being unfinished

[silk harness]

I'd be ok with a really strong rex if it's hard to grow, hard to maintain, and has a few equally strong rival playables. Slap it with that update 5 carno hunger and it'd be good lol

[hasty coyote]

hypsi and dryo

[tall bronze]

They're gonna get stuff though ;O;

Though I do find that funny how they said no more unfinished dinos then those 2 exist :P

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly there shouldn't be any single dominant predator in any region. It results in the only threat being cannibalism, which I think is just less interesting because it removes the assymetrical element of the fight.

[clever tiger]

Hell yes, I also love the idea of baiting a rex into a fall that breaks it legs then say a group of utahs spam calling to draw another big player to it. Because even with a broken leg it should still be a huge threat to the utahs

[tight cove]

i remember when carno did fractures with it charge 😂

[tall bronze]

Should come back once severities come honestly 😛

[thin mantle]

God that was hilarious

[hasty coyote]

when
they have gone 3 updates, likely 4 soon.
hypsi is getting its stuff with herrera, which isnt being worked on
dryo... has been said to be on the backburner, and likely will get it when another dino gets burrow, which isnt coming any time soon

[thin mantle]

Only if the Carno receives equivalent or worse fractures on landing the charge on anything 1 ton or heavier

[silk harness]

Yeah people will definitely be eager to get apexes killed if they have a good opportunity. Should further help keep their population down

[tall bronze]

Herrera is kinda being worked on technically 😮 And Dryo has just been said to be a low priority

[ocean sentinel]

Wouldn't that mean Carno would receive a fracture from hitting another full grown carno

[tall bronze]

That's how I imagine fractures in general honestly 😮 Size affecting how you deal and receive em n' such

[thin mantle]

Yes, yes it would

[clever tiger]

this is the exact reason im okay where stegos are at rn, hypsi and dryo are half implemented. with stegos boring gameplay you only have tenos so yeah

[tall bronze]

Like if you ram into a Stego, you're just gonna get accordioned

But ram into a Dryo and it will just explode 😛

[ocean sentinel]

Imagine two Carnos charging each other both getting a head fracture.

[tight cove]

herra sounds good on paper until you realize nobody goes into the jungles

[thin mantle]

That’s sorta what I’m hoping for tbh

[tall bronze]

[hasty coyote]

DONT YOU DARE FORGET ABOUT THE BONKERS

[clever tiger]

OOPS

[thin mantle]

Carno is not meant for ramming, it’s not reinforced for it, especially now
Fuckin hits with its nose lol

[ocean sentinel]

Also, how many arboreal creatures are planned? I know Herrera is planned, and Hyspi is going to get climbing too.

[thin mantle]

Pachy and teno are literally the only thing keeping me playing the game rn, so I agree

[clever tiger]

only fun herbis to play 😦

[tight cove]

utah should also be getting climbing but not true climbing like herra

[somber sphinx]

teno and carno for me

[tall bronze]

Utah already might get a clamber of sorts.

[thin mantle]

I don’t even know if I agree, if 2-3 Utahs see either they can be considered dead already

[hasty coyote]

velo may get some climbing (this is complete speculation)
Utah is going to get a "clamber" up ledges, but not true climbing

[frail bobcat]

I think that is going to be added with herra

[clever tiger]

I still have fun playing, and also encourages finding a herd asap

[hasty coyote]

pachy is my main reason, which is why I try to advocate for it to be in a good spot

[ocean sentinel]

I was about to recommend allowing juvi utahs climb trees, which would allow them to trade the danger from terrestrial predators in exchange for putting itself in the domain of Herraras.

[thin mantle]

Which is difficult when you’re playing two of the lowest population animals because Utah and deino are so much better than everything else

[frail bobcat]

At least the devs said its possible for it

[tight cove]

from what im hearing and witnessed, pachy players are having a hard time adjusting to the fact that utah pounce is working rn lol 💀

[clever tiger]

Ikr, but thats always been the case even on legacy, carnis outnumbering herbis by like 3to1 it felt like

I'll be herbi main for a while when galli gets put in, i want to be a spam calling menace

[thin mantle]

Which is why I’m baffled with how powerful Utah is rn….

[ocean sentinel]

The herbivore to carnivore ratio in the Isle is pretty wacky.

[silk harness]

There are a couple spots with trees that tons of people pass through. If herrera was in the game rn I would set up ambushes at that shallow river near south spawn, the path that leads to swamp at southeast spawn, or the route most people take along the river between NW and center spawn

[hasty coyote]

I have killed groups of 3 utahs as a pachy (but thats because they were garbage), and have managed to almost escape from a coordinated pack, but i fell off a cliff right before I escaped

[thin mantle]

Well that’s good, but tbh the only reason you should be surviving a Utah attack is if they’re horrendously missing their pounces….which is actually kinda hard to do

[golden coral]

This is a great idea!

[tall bronze]

The recovery time for missing is essentially non-existent right now <:/

[clever tiger]

true that

[hasty coyote]

Theres a unofficial server that actually had the data for amount of playables. half the people playing were utah and deino, so it ended up only being like 1/4th the people were herbie, and half of them were stegos.

[thin mantle]

And you can land it from any location, and the hitbox for landing it is bigger than you’re own model

[tight cove]

i saw that lmao, its what i expected

[tall bronze]

[clever tiger]

makes sense because you can go to a dead corner of the map and afk grow next to some water with grass

[hasty coyote]

That or they decide not to hop off, so you kill them when they fall. Then sit in a bush while the others are confused on where you went

[clever tiger]

funny too because those same players end up killing their stego when they realize how boring the gameplay is

[thin mantle]

Mhm, bottom line is that the only way to really deal with them is to not engage with them directly…which is a bit saddening

[golden coral]

Keep the quick recovery, or make it the same as pachy recovery. Then make it so it only works if you pounce at the actual pounce slots/flank, and not from front ot rear. Then it might be more interesting.

[tight cove]

most herbs i see are legit stegos, (becuase there gods on the island) and hypsi (becasue it spawns as an adult) 😂

[tall bronze]

Eeeeeeh I'd say still increase the recovery by like **.**5 seconds

[frail bobcat]

to 1,5 seconds

[thin mantle]

As long as you can’t jump at the tail or teeth of your target and succeed, I’m fine with it. Tho I’d still increase the recovery a bit since it basically doesn’t exist

[tight cove]

a good pachy player can take on a single utah no problem

[hasty coyote]

make anything past the base of the tail not be pounceable, then make pounce get knocked down briefly if you get hit mid-air

[thin mantle]

Only if the pounce is missed…

[golden coral]

I think utah has the advantage there honestly. What with the new pounce and recovery, if you ambush, you have very little excuse for not winning the fight.

Especially since most people are.. quite terrible at paying attention to anything, as any carno can attest to

[tall bronze]

I still think the downwards head slam for Pachy should do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage to targets that are knocked down

[thin mantle]

Yes……yes……yes……just yes. Apply the same logic to the head and front of the chest and we’re golden

[thin mantle]

It should

[clever tiger]

which should be the case, utahs should be hunting in groups for the most part

[hasty coyote]

that really depends on the utah too.
The fight isnt unwinnable for pachy, it just favors the utah currently. When it should be pachy favored.

[golden coral]

Past base of tail, and in front of shoulders should be a no go. And yeah, if getting hit, add a knockdown/knockback, unless hit just kills.

[tight cove]

even then, its still doable, its not an instant death sentence if you got pounced

[thin mantle]

Yes it is, the only thing you need to do as a Utah is mock bite every once and awhile, maybe get 1 extra hit in after your bucked pounce, and it’ll go down in 45 seconds

[tight cove]

i disagree with the fight being utah favored, the pachy can end the fight with 1 hit.

[golden coral]

It almost is, what with the bleed. You're more or less locked down, and unless the utah loses patience, you're kind of screwed unless you can position yourself in a way where it can not get to you. At which point.. you're now locked to that position, hoping the utah gives up.

[hasty coyote]

utah can cripple a pachy with 1 pounce too

[thin mantle]

So can the Utah, and it’s an ability that’s much easier to land and with no charge up, Utah is also faster

[hasty coyote]

If the pachy gets a hit on the utah first, then sure. If the utah gets the first pounce, then the pachy has to hope for a leg break

[golden coral]

@wild archProblem is, it's hard to decide on how many swings. It used to be 10 at one point, and that was trash. I guess 16-17 swings instead of 20 could work, but it's hard to say. Most other critters have a good few attacks on their main attacks, and useful basic attacks at that, something the stego doesn't quite have.

[thin mantle]

Like you physically can’t pursue a Utah after a pounce and live, even if you kill it you’ll bleed out

[clever tiger]

The thing is I'm actually okay with fights being favored to carnis, they do have to hunt for survival, but herbis should have the ability to punish mistakes made by them, in this case utahs should def need longer recover for the missed pounces, make sure there's a risk factor

like how when pachy misses the ram, he's already slower than utah, and gets slowed up even more which is good, but there isnt punishment at all for a utah failing its pounce

[hasty coyote]

I have the numbers, I know. sprinting after 1 pounce at 70% food and water will drain you to 19% bleed

anything below half food is likely just death

[tight cove]

@thin mantle @hasty coyote do you guys use the tree method when fighting?

[thin mantle]

I’m not, go hunt juvis or smaller targets. Herbis that are both slower and designed for defense shouldn’t be put at a disadvantage against their similarly sized carnivorous counterparts. One of the reasons the ratio is so fucked between herbis and carnis is mainly because Utah is so damn strong

[thin mantle]

Yes

[ocean sentinel]

The problem with fights being in favor of canivores is that they are typically more mobile, this control the terms of engagement.

[hasty coyote]

when I can, but bucking as a pachy knocks them off before I can reach a tree generally

or the tree decides "nah they stay on"

[clever tiger]

but this encourages grouping which should be the goal right?

[thin mantle]

Not generally, nothing should be beholden to a group.

[clever tiger]

you can endlessly stun once one carnivore is downed with two pachys you can even do it with one if you chain them right

[thin mantle]

What I’m saying is that carnivores on average should be far more demanding and skill reliant than herbivores

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Well, no not currently, stun cooldowns ensure that can’t happen

[hasty coyote]

no, if you make herbies group but carnis not, then whats the point in playing a weaker herbivore when you can just group as a stronger carni?
heres the general balance of the game: "if you cant fight, run. if you cant run, fight." carnivores are faster then most of the herbivores, so they must be able to fight off the carnivores.

[clever tiger]

I guess its easier for me to say because when i play herbivore i dont go looking for fights and generally hide using bushes to the advantage

but i can def fight once in them

[thin mantle]

Plus, the sheer fact that you need to engage in combat to survive as a carnivore makes them much more enticing to play from an engagement pov generally… so we already have that to deal with

[tall bronze]

I kinda disagree with the mindset of "you either need to run or fight".

Sometimes you should just avoid the threat in the first place. 😛

[clever tiger]

was this recently implemented? I was doing chain stuns not too long ago

[clever tiger]

this is my general herbi playstyle

[thin mantle]

No, it’s been in the game since U4, but if you’re able to do it, it’s likely a bug

[hasty coyote]

and thats what you should do. use everything you can to your advantage. theres no point trying to 1v8 utahs as a pachy

[hasty coyote]

plus, most people have carni bias

[thin mantle]

Mhm, the issues arise when your threats gratuitously outnumber you and are much faster and stronger than you…..like why even play as that creature at that point

[tight cove]

facts, alot of ppl foreget that you should be avoiding fights and hiding sometimes lol

[azure crescent]

1 pachy should be equal against 2 utahs

[ocean sentinel]

Hiding is always going to be the better option, but that doesn't mean you running and fighting shouldn't also an option.

[thin mantle]

Especially for animals very clearly designed for fighting certain threats off

[tall bronze]

Beip poking a Utah that missed it's pounce before skedaddling to the water just out of spite >:)

[clever tiger]

this is a good point overall, most people are going to play carnivore so herbis are already at a numbers disadvantage. But do you think buffs for herbivores would make more people play them? I always felt the popular dinos were because most people like the carnivores over herbivores overall

[hasty coyote]

ehhh, id say 2 utahs should be a bit stronger than 1 pachy, they are relatively close in speed and hp

1v1, pachy favored (70/30 to 40/60 roughly)
1v2, utah favored (40/60)
1v3, utahs win (10/90, maybe pachy can abuse specific terrain or skill issue them)
anything more is just death

[azure crescent]

trike should've been added instead of stego

[ocean sentinel]

Having no back up options after hiding just encourages people to rage quit the moment they get spotted, which isn't fun for either side. It would be far more interesting if you at least chance to turn things around.

[azure crescent]

55/45 sounds better in 1v2, as it's still very possible

[frail bobcat]

why?

[golden coral]

Yes. Would have been so much more fun for the utahs, and would have been better for their balance as well.

[tight cove]

trikes suffer againts groups, i feel like up5 utahs would brutalize them 💀

[hasty coyote]

40/60 is still very possible, it just requires the pachy to be better than the utahs

[azure crescent]

as intended

[clever tiger]

trike puts back to a mountain/hill/tree. I think people would complain about trike as much as they do stego

[golden coral]

And it would have given us a solid way to balance utahs for the kind of prey that would struggle with them, instead of balancing utahs around things they should not go near.

[azure crescent]

and? using terrain to your advantage is good

[thin mantle]

No that’s not my goal necessarily. I’m trying to address herbivore underpopulation by making them worth playing. I want to do this by making the numbers and skill required to take on your average herbivore higher than it is now, this comes in the form of buffs. The lack of power or agency isn’t the only thing that contributes to underpopulation but it’s a massive element

[hasty coyote]

I havent seen many carno cry that a utah/pachy jumps on a rock, its the same thing

[clever tiger]

yeah and you know advantage literally every carnivore has now? speed, if you die to stego its your fault lol

[tall bronze]

Make everything Moose

[thin mantle]

Mhm, would be especially interesting to see now, because I have zero doubt that 2 Utahs could dismantle a trike pretty easily

[golden coral]

Oh they would, but the difference is that the trike is open from the sides, more than the stego would be, and the trike needs to do that, while the stego ideally should not. Kind of how pachy does not need to run, while a galli kind of has to. A galli can't survive by using terrain like that, a pachy can.

[azure crescent]

yeah, what about it

[thin mantle]

Fucking yes please

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/moose-water-gif-20347387

[clever tiger]

the fact you cant put two and two together explains why so many complain about stego lmfao

[thin mantle]

Well that’s just using terrain circumstantially, it’s like deino retreating to the water accept SIGNIFICANTLY less influential on the outcome of the fight

[tight cove]

lets talk about cera balance in this roster 👀

[azure crescent]

explain for me then what's wrong with dying to a stego and what's wrong with using terrain to your advantage

[azure crescent]

yeah, you can still kill a trike with its back against a wall, it's just harder. you can't kill a submerged deino though

[clever tiger]

if you die to stego with a speed and stamina advantage its your fault, you're saying to implement trike instead

[thin mantle]

You can’t even damage them yeah

[hasty coyote]

revert pachy's knockdown range to 1.5 tons, i want to bully cera again

[golden coral]

Evil little corpse bully that would prefer to just be an asshole to anything that has made a kill, over fighting the prey itself preferably :p

[clever tiger]

when we'd have the same problem

[azure crescent]

except stego is literally made to counter utahs, while trike is the perfect prey item for utahs?

[golden coral]

Trike would be more vunerable in general than stego, if done right. Same way a deino is less vunerable than stego unless it's far inland trying to migrate.

[golden coral]

Eh, hadrosaurs better. But ceratopsids should be solid prey items, just like larger carnivores most likely.

[thin mantle]

I’d imagine it’d be an uncharacteristically defense oriented carnivore, because it’s poorly optimized for encountering other defensively oriented targets, which is what most herbis are, so it uses their tactics (balance) against their threats to steal those threat’s corpses

[clever tiger]

so you're trying to make sure the utahs have something easier to kill lol

[azure crescent]

i'm saying that trike does what stego is supposed to do but better. it's a better prey item for utahs, it still screws up deino and carno, and it can have similar strategies

[azure crescent]

Yes, because utah is supposed to hunt large animals. It's not to say that the trike would have a hard time. It's even tankier than stego.

[tight cove]

cera should have a grab that drains a ton of stam

[thin mantle]

The only worse targets are like…..aquatics too big to kill….sauropods for obvious reasons, and Anky

[azure crescent]

not really, hadrosaurs can realistically attack from all sides

[golden coral]

Is this a bad thing? Me and Duder are saying that in the future, with hadrosaurs and ceratopsids, these will be easier to kill for utahs than stego, or deino. Just like an allo or rex would be easier than a carno, due to them being slower and more open, than the specialized small game hunter that is meant to take on utah sized prey.@clever tiger

[thin mantle]

Essentially yes, that way they can be properly balanced

[azure crescent]

• maia is somewhat known to have a "standing upright defensively" ability

[clever tiger]

but they can hunt a stego, a bunch of brainless plays mashing the bite button shouldnt be able to easily take down a stego, you have to be smart and steadily bleed them out and avoid getting hit

idk man, i just go for juvi stegos instead because they usually spam call, im not crying about adult stego power because they are easily avoidable

[golden coral]

True, but at the same time, they have no armor, are likely less powerful, and has just as open flanks. In general they'd be less "fighters" I'd imagine. Not that they should only run, but still, might rely more on running things over and so on, than outright standing and fighting. Especially if they can still only attack in one direction at a time. And while teno is lethal, it's small, and designed to brawl. I can't see a maia, or para, be quite as.. vicious I suppose.

[thin mantle]

Yes, and the only reason why is because Utah is mechanically designed and balanced around stego, this makes it a fucking nightmare to anything that lacks the tools stego has, because it’s being balanced around fighting one of its greatest counters

[azure crescent]

I'm not crying about stego's power either. I'm saying that it's healthier for the game to make utah be balanced around things it's SUPPOSED to kill, rather than being balanced around things that it isn't.

[silk harness]

@azure crescent I've always felt the same way. The trike vs. utah matchup will be so much more fun for both parties compared to the borderline toxicity of stego vs. utah. Especially if they keep that mechanic they showed off a long time ago where pouncing the trike's horns just impales you. Makes the fight much more strategic.

[azure crescent]

Maia and para absolutely are more vicious to utahs due to their sheer size and relative mobility. Specially para, since it can quite literally trample utahs

But I agree in the sense that utah will have an easier time against hadros

[golden coral]

@azure crescentI think I make a distinction between how hard a hunt would be, and how difficult. Taking out a trike is harder than taking out a stego due to trike being larger and tankier. But reverse, a stego would be way more difficult and dangerous than the trike, due to stegos tail vs open flanks on trike. Difficulty = the amount of "skill" or well, gameplay itself you need to go through to get the result. Hard the amount of time and effort you need to go throigh for the result.

[thin mantle]

Yeah I’d prolly agree, the difficulty in comparison is that they have 2 very different forms of defending themselves so drawing direct parallels in regards to efficiency is difficult without testing

[golden coral]

To be fair, if you can juke a carno charge, I do not see a para or maia hitting any aware utah at all. :p

[azure crescent]

oh yeah i know i was just giving an example

[clever tiger]

i guarantee you people would still cry and complain about trikes as much as they do stegos because there isnt something bigger around to kill it. The solution to fighting adult stegos is avoiding them and letting them suicide out of boredom

you can still kill stegos with a smart group of utahs btw so its not like utahs cant do it

[golden coral]

While they could be given rather vicious attacks, I don't see them as quite as.. "aggro" as any ceratopsid. So I'd still say ceratopsids, like larger carnivores would be a bit more dangerous than the relatively "defenseless" hadrosaurs that rely more on sheer bulk and the accompanying trample and similar attacks.

[azure crescent]

I don't care if people cry about trike. It's better for the game, and if people cry it won't affect the game in the slightest. They cry all they want for all I care. It won't make the game better.

[tight cove]

yeah para is probably gonna be pretty easy to hunt for utahs, its a big target with exsposed flanks that's slow 😂

[azure crescent]

para isn't very slow honestly

it'll probably have a similar moveset to shant

[golden coral]

But yes, trike instead of stego would be better for future balancing.

Eh, slow in relation to utah I'd say.

[azure crescent]

so a hind kick, a body slam and a trample

[clever tiger]

well currently everyone cries about stegos when they arent an issue like at all.

[thin mantle]

Why would we? Utah would be that “big enough thing”

[silk harness]

People would whine a similar amount, but you'd definitely see more trikes dying to utahs than stegos currently do

[azure crescent]

They're an issue in the sense that i've already explained.

[azure crescent]

This is the sense that they're an issue in.

[thin mantle]

I feel like arguing from popular complaint is a really bad idea given the general level of engagement or understanding of balance this community has, but that’s just me

[clever tiger]

bruh ive come across utahs that still dont know how to alt bite/ or pounce

[thin mantle]

Engage with arguments is better anyway

[clever tiger]

those clowns arent beating a stego as it should be

[golden coral]

See this, would ideally be how it's done. Right now, if we give utahs the dismount they ask for, the pounce they ask for, and so on, it'll be almost impossible for the ceratopsids, hadrosaurs, and large theropods to do much.

[azure crescent]

because utahs aren't supposed to beat stegos to begin with

[tight cove]

i still encounter a ton of ppl who dont know how to buck 💀

[clever tiger]

but they can so whats the problem?

[thin mantle]

The problem is that they can

[tight cove]

nothing is an easier kill than a pachy that doesn't buck lmao

[golden coral]

I mean, people think rex would be "immune" to utahs, but I honestly don't see how. If a carno can't catch utahs, how is a rex,that is way bigger target, and way slower in movement, going to do it?

[azure crescent]

The problem is exactly that. They can. Utah is being balanced around things that it shouldn't kill, just because the things that it should kill aren't here.

[thin mantle]

Worse than trike by far

[golden coral]

The game isn't.. all that good at explaining mechanics.. :p

[clever tiger]

ive mostly seen people complaining about nothing beating stegos tho

[golden coral]

I saw someone mention they didn't know food, water, stam and health affected bleed

[azure crescent]

Those people are stupid. You literally also just said that utahs could beat stegos. Make up your mind.

[clever tiger]

They can but majority complained about their power for ages and STILL do

[thin mantle]

Well, semi competent Utahs in a group of 3 or more can do not sure I give that any weight.

[golden coral]

Utahs can beat stegos, and that's fine. The issue isn't so much that they shouldn't at all, but the difficulty in doing so, compared to other targets. Like, technically utahs could kill a deino or even an anky, but.. it'd be almost impssible.

[thin mantle]

I feel like the existence of that complaint should show you how valuable that take is

[azure crescent]

Again, you're still missing my point. Utah is being balanced around things it SHOULD NOT be able to reliably kill. If trike was here, It would be healthier for the game in that utah would actually be properly balanced, and would be able to kill what it should easier than what it should not.

[clever tiger]

You can look in the balance requests and people are STILL calling for stego nerfs when it doesnt need any when you can either avoid or take it down with a smart group

[azure crescent]

That is irrelevant. What people complain about is irrelevant when it's supposed to be that way.

[thin mantle]

Exactly, why are we talking about those people? They clearly don’t know what they’re doing if that’s a primary complaint of their’s

[azure crescent]

Those people don't know what they're doing, and thus are not a good argument.

[golden coral]

Basically. If we balance utah to reliably take out stegos, and deinos possibly, and pachy and teno and so on, all animals that are for once reason or another much more tricky than let's say para, rex, galli, and so on, then when those critters come in, we'll have to rework stuff a lot due to utahs now being really OP vs those matchups.

[thin mantle]

I don’t think a more definitive self own in regards to balance exists other than complaining that stego is too strong and needs nerfs

[clever tiger]

This whole argument started because people were complaining about stego being op, thats been the sentiment for ages on this discord actually. I've always said its an option to fight it, is what you guys calling for is nerfs to utah? because of its bleed?

[thin mantle]

People tend to forget how all 4 of those creatures are very well optimized for dealing with Utahs, which is one of the reasons Utah keeps receiving buffs

[azure crescent]

No, what we're saying is that trike would've been a better addition than stego. How have you not understood that yet?

It just means that utah will be better balanced for the FULL roster, rather than getting balance changes every time a new dinosaur comes.

[clever tiger]

Trike would have resulted in the same crying we get from people malding about stegos tho. That was the point. It would have been a strong contender with nothing bigger to take it down, JUST LIKE STEGO

[thin mantle]

No, I don’t think any of us here represent the general sentiment in regards to stego, we’re all saying trike or a hadro would’ve been better for balancing Utah, because balancing it against one of its most effective counters makes Utah far too effective at dealing with all other targets

[thin mantle]

But that’s not one of stegos issues, deinos and Utahs can kill them

[azure crescent]

NO. It has a fully exposed rear, and it cannot counter dismounts like what stego can do right now. Trike can still charge utahs, but if the utahs are smart, they will be able to take down trike far more reliably than stegos, as intended.

People crying doesn't matter.

[thin mantle]

Like we’ve been saying, if people are complaining that stegos are immune to death, they don’t know how to play Utah or deino

[azure crescent]

(Unless it's for a genuine reason, which in this case, it is not)

[clever tiger]

why shouldnt a stego be able to counter a dismount?

[thin mantle]

It should……

[azure crescent]

How are you missing my point

It should, which is exactly why it shouldn't be in the game this early on.

[thin mantle]

Because Utah gets balanced to combat hard counters

Which is bad for everything else

[azure crescent]

Which is unhealthy to the game

There's already pachy and stego being taken down by utahs, both of which are hard counters to it. Do you see the issue?

Of course a large group of utahs should be able to take down these animals, but not as reliably as they do now.

[thin mantle]

A very large pack

[clever tiger]

I think a smart group that manages to take down a stego should be rewarded for fighting in a group

because Ive mostly come across terrible players that group up with 5+ utahs then get mad they couldnt beat a stego when they have capacity to

[thin mantle]

You can easily apply this sentence to any creature by replacing “stego” with X creature and it means exactly the same thing

[clever tiger]

risk and reward for good play

[azure crescent]

Yes, it should be possible, but not as reliably as now.

[thin mantle]

Like I definitely agree, I also agree that this applies to any playable creature. We’re discussing the scale of difficulty and where these targets should fall upon it, not whether killing them should be rewarding

[azure crescent]

Trike is a better prey item for utah, ergo utah gets balanced around the things it SHOULD kill, ergo we won't have balance issues with utah when other playables are added, etc.

[clever tiger]

so obviously since stego was implemented first and trike wont be until later, what would be your current solution to that?

because as far as I was concerned a stego could reliably counter a dismount of a utah pounce which is a one shot right? a stego can also use it's surrounding to its advantage to avoid headshots

[azure crescent]

Either add in actual prey items to utah, or replace stego with something that is a better animal for the current roster

[azure crescent]

Yes, which is good for stego, but bad for the rest of the roster

[thin mantle]

Reduce both the apexes to half their weight for the time being, or replace both with something smaller, or remove both and put them in sandbox to satisfy the players of those critters

[golden coral]

I'd say we need a clear idea of numbers for a pack, and then work from there. We also need to work on the playables getting their proper difficulty, rather than just having stats. It's not the stats that should make stego untouchable, or pachy, it's their abilitys and all that. That way, you can lower stats to fit the current roster if needed, with the understanding that when the critters have proper stats, they are no longer prey items. But at that time, it'd be fine because the rest of the roster is there to be better prey.

[azure crescent]

idk 3 ton stego sounds off to me

[clever tiger]

i think a lot of your issues then stem from the fact that the roster is going to remain small for a while. we've already seen how long it took for pachy to finally make it in. There won't be a counters to others in the roster until we get more variance. And yeah see the isle team never does balances like that

[thin mantle]

It does….a lot more things about stego would need to change, not just it’s weight, for that to work

It’s not my end all solution is just one of the many options

[clever tiger]

there's already people hardly playing herbis because they are boring and already outnumbered on most servers, and if you are on a server with a lot of stegos you can still just avoid the adults and target the babies

[azure crescent]

No, my main issue is the fact that the counters to utah, are being balanced in a way that no longer makes them counters

[thin mantle]

Well, I’d argue that for teno and Pachy, they’re not boring by any means. They just can’t consistently or intuitively fight Utahs rn

[clever tiger]

i guess boring is the wrong word but popularity will ALWAYS favor carni players

[thin mantle]

It’s never been by this much, this isn’t as simple an explanation as you’re making it out to be

Plus…..initial U4 and the stress test for update 4 proves that isn’t true

[clever tiger]

I'd like to see the numbers because in every server I've played as a herbi there always seemed to be more carnivores than herbivores, same with legacy

[golden coral]

It'd be fine if stego was properly difficult, since it'd be temporary. Same as a 4T deino but with more actions to do and all. While I hope we get a 8T stego in the future, I think it's fine to wait for the future for that, if "small stego" gets proper ways to fight and all, and maybe some of that gular armor (so much for tiny head, easy kill xD)

[golden coral]

Teno good animal!

[thin mantle]

Legacy is irrelevant, and what numbers are you looking for? U4 St numbers? It was a commonly known fact of the population ratios for nearly 2 months that there were more Pachys and tenos on servers than all other carnivores combined

[thin mantle]

Teno very good animal!

[clever tiger]

was that possibly because pachy was freshly implemented, new dino releases def affect that number. Because I still feel like there's more carnivores in the average server versus herbivore

[thin mantle]

Then I’d be scratching my head trying to explain the teno pops. Herds of 8 tenos weren’t at all rare back then

[clever tiger]

the only explanation i have for why herbis might be out populating carnivores (if thats actually the case) is because dryo and hypsi are half implemented, they arent worth playing/growing

so that leaves herbi mains with the option of teno, pachy and stego ( which stego gets boring so hard to count)

[thin mantle]

Well I can give you a very easy explanation. Slam did more damage than current kick does, Utah had a less useable pounce, and while yes Pachy was new, it could also defend from 2 Utahs on average quite handily

[clever tiger]

Are these player numbers reflective of the current state now? I assume not after the changes

[thin mantle]

I’m specifically referring to U4 and the U4 stress tests, these numbers are not reflective of current ratios. Those massively favor carnivores to the point of 10% of the server playing as herbis other than stego

That’s pathetically low

[clever tiger]

so you'd say giving the proper nerfs to carnis or buffs to herbivores could bring the players back to playing them more evenly distributed

[golden coral]

I would imagine herbi pop goes down now that utah is "OP". Why go teno, or dryo, or even stego or carno (and deinos are just river worms), when you can grow a utah quick, and with some form of coordination and "skill" take on everything else in the game pretty easy and reliably.

[thin mantle]

Yes, absolutely

[azure crescent]

Honestly, balancing things like utah and carno to reliably kill what they're supposed to and vice versa is good enough

[golden coral]

And since we all know, killing abiility is all that matters for Isle players so here we are xD

[thin mantle]

Only for now, there isn’t anything else in the game to do

[clever tiger]

Ohhh okayokay, see we were having like several convos about dino power/bites that I didnt know this was about balancing player diet picks

[golden coral]

We really could use a proper balance "vision" to have something to work from. But I honestly have no idea if anyone in any position has an actual idea of what kind of experience they want to give when it comes to balance (or even the game itself at times.. god knows we've changed from what was orignally meant to say the least).

[clever tiger]

at some point earlier i joined in to discuss the fact that some dude believed stegos were too strong and I argued they aren't and that you have options to fight or leave, so clearly that subject changed somewhere in between the discussion

[thin mantle]

It changes with each update so you can never really tell

[azure crescent]

dibble needs to be added asap

it'd be a good yet tough prey item for utah

[thin mantle]

Oh that’s long past, duder Erik and I all agree on that

[thin mantle]

Plus, another relevant addition

[azure crescent]

indeed

[clever tiger]

the problem is the isle updates really slow. like 1 or 2 dinos a year is pathetic. and idk what makes them decide on their next playable

[thin mantle]

There’s a complete lack of consistency aside from “new mechanics tied to X critter”

Like….I’m confused why Troodon is being added before something like mega or dilo simply due to a lack of available prey for Troodon

[clever tiger]

I'm just as confused, but despite these channels to discuss I dont think they've ever gone with player suggestions on the next playable which causes a lot of the problems in the game

[thin mantle]

Pachy teno and stego all have incredible AOE, so unless they make Troodon run faster than Carno and pounce 3 times quicker than Utah I have no clue what it’s actually going to do to them

[thin mantle]

Then the cult followings for each playable arise out of how cute or relatable they find their personalities…..and at that point we’re locked in

[clever tiger]

Like at least being able to vote on the next dino from a batch of them would be better

[thin mantle]

By far, tho as devs of a game with combat as a central mechanic in conjunction with survival in the form of food needs, I feel like the devs could just make better choices on playables to add based upon relevance to the other members of the roster

Because hypsi would quite possibly win the vote between dilo dibble and galli in a pre U2 world simply because it’s new and adorable

[clever tiger]

it would make balancing them much easier because implementing a dino right at the jump to work around a current dinosaur as well as the rest of the roster

and less fiddling with tweaks overall as the roster grows

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which is what Utah and teno were meant to be…..and uhhh….well it worked for one of them

Like teno has been fairly consistently great over the course of the games history post U2, it’s been too weak or too strong at some point or another but never to an unbearable point, and that’s mainly because it has relatively low health and it’s abilities can be actively engaged with

[clever tiger]

even though it's essentially useless, and more of "pick for convenience and explore the map", sorta like how ptera is used now

the only time ive played hypsi is to explore the human areas and dropped it since

but yeah basically waiting on cera to mix up a bit of the population, not thrilled about troodon or bepi

[somber sphinx]

Well I am, especially troodon

[clever tiger]

to each their own, i aint knocking it, just want my galli, for carnivore I want titanaboa but maybe in a dream lol

[thin mantle]

Pretty much yeah, it has such low relevance, even with the existence of climbing it has very few activities it could commit to

[thin mantle]

I like Troodon, but it’s balancing over the next 3 years is gonna be awful

[somber sphinx]

I just want my boy Albert and I’ll be happy

[clever tiger]

i was optimistic that the acid update might benefit hypsi by proxy but idk, the spit is so pointless, easily countered, easily missed and basically a waste of food bar. would be better off as an ai food for carnivores. Like one day when the game has more dinos, I don't see it getting picked at all

[thin mantle]

Well....there is no planned acid update so I don't know what to tell ya there :p

We have poisons and venoms, neither of which will go to hypsi I'd imagine

[clever tiger]

wiat wait werent gonna do something with acid/poison?? I misspoke sorry

[thin mantle]

No no it's venom/poison

Don't think acid is ever gonna be in the game unless strains have it

[clever tiger]

I was expecting that hypsi to get something similar, with very little damage of course, but at least to make it more interesting. God just delete it at this point then 🤷

[thin mantle]

If it is to be improved I don't think that would or should be the direction to take it tbh

[azure crescent]

it does

hypsi's spit does damage already, just very little

[thin mantle]

It needs more mechanics, and it's spit needs to be useable while running away from something

[clever tiger]

oh, see i didnt really use it much, i thought the spit did no damage and just did a .5 second blind as long as the target cleaned it off fast enough

[clever tiger]

that and maybe a larger cone, its not very reliable overall

[thin mantle]

Or just the existence of a cone

cuz rn it's basically a bullet

[clever tiger]

y e a

[golden coral]

That's.. not how a vision is supposed to work.. :p

[clever tiger]

that travels very slowly

[thin mantle]

Pretty sure it's actually a borderline hitscan, it just has really short range and is impossible to aim

[thin mantle]

I think that's categorically opposed to the definition of the word "vision"

[golden coral]

Also hypsi stomach acid (yes, actual acid or something equally lethal) improvised merc gun needs to happen!

[clever tiger]

well damn, I've been aiming a little ahead of a target because i treated it like it had bullet drop. explains why i only hit stationary targets. I feel bad for anyone that mains hypsi though, its not fun

[thin mantle]

The only times you'll ever land a successful shot is if your aim line turns orange

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/machine-gun-cat-gif-11408704

[clever tiger]

ohh ty then

[golden coral]

Just so!

[half girder]

why play hypsi when dryo exists, hypsis are a waste of server slots, nothing really exciting about them

[near minnow]

@severe pagoda carnos starting off with low hunger is just preparing you for what adult carno is like; always starving and if youre not starving you're immediately looking for your next meal. its really absurd and takes a lot of potential fun from carnos because you cant do anything but actively hunt. I love trying to ambush / sneak up on prey, but its not realistic, I have to go to center and pick fights or scavenge for food.

the only time i can ambush prey is when im sitting on a stack of carcasses.

[azure crescent]

@minor condor stego has the same stam as carno

you quite literally cannot get outstammed by a stego unless you're below half stam as carno

[minor condor]

okay

[tranquil pawn]

[elfin apex]

#balance-feedback message
in reply to the balance feedback post suggesting we'd need a larger predator like allo or cerato:
Carno is bigger than Cerato, it is longer and approximately twice as heavy. Mass-wise, a carnotaurus should body a ceratosaurus easily

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
you say that and yet my least played (and my least fave to play) animal is stego. The stego main strawman argument is silly

i downvoted it for the reason of it not really needing a nerf beyond satisfying people who want herbis to be easy food/fodder

U3 is an example of stego at its worst

and deinos ruled the island during that period

[somber sphinx]

In real life a carno would dunk a cera but in TI it could be equal in terms of the matchup if they both play right and how they should

[dusky surge]

personally, still dont want cera to feel too big for its britches

[somber sphinx]

Same

[dusky surge]

its not the carno counter

it shouldn't be

it should be strong enough to get carnos to leave its food alone and thats about it

[somber sphinx]

Indeed, I feel like 1.4T cera would be a good spot

[calm ibex]

I love balance feedback.

[dusky surge]

don't we all

me and the boys strawmanning everyone who disagrees with our takes

[wheat ridge]

if we would go with "realism" in this game, deino would only weight 4 tons and stego 6, it would have even less of a chance against it, stay salty carni mains

and dinos below apex tier would not even dare to attack it, realism seems fun

[azure crescent]

To be fair if we went realism deino would weigh 14 tons not 4

[dusky surge]

deino big

it differs depending on subspecies of deinosuchus

[azure crescent]

ours is hatcheri

[ocean sentinel]

Realistically it would have no issues dragging a stego based on weight alone, though the tail would case problems, though it's honestly better that Deinosuchus was downsized for the game given it's current state.

[azure crescent]

Deino is fine as is

[ocean sentinel]

Honestly it's a bit too powerful

[azure crescent]

i mean combat wise not really, it’s just strong because it can oneshot almost all the roster

[ocean sentinel]

Both Stego and Deino feel out of place in the roster.