balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

what's the name of your server and are you EU or NA?

[fresh laurel]

I legit got bit then came back my screen confused until they double pinned me smh

[fallen vale]

Petits Pieds, EU. It's usually active every evening

[fresh laurel]

Guess my ping will suck then

[hollow canyon]

oh yea I do see it very often, thought about playing there but wasn't sure if it wouldn't have some body down rules or something

I will check it out later

[hasty coyote]

Was with 2 other pachies last update for like 30 mins.
“Let’s go get cocos”
“Sure”
proceed to kill me after we moved a bit away

[fresh laurel]

Smh

Im fine with same species killing but cheap kills are uh pretty mid

[fallen vale]

no there's isnt you can find the rules here discord.gg/the-isle-france. It doesn't get more bare minimum than this rules wise...

[fresh laurel]

Na version when

/joke

[hasty coyote]

If you’re openly aggro, fine.
If you say nothing then kill, fine.
But if you say “hey what are y’all doing” and then kill…

[fresh laurel]

Killing your packmate as they are logging is a whole new low imo

Dont agree with bucking taking no stam tbh

[hasty coyote]

My only issue with bucking costing no stam is that there’s no purpose for bucking. Just make the normal pounce cost that much stam. You’re just punishing new players who don’t understand bucking.

[fresh laurel]

If they made normal pounce cost that much then you turned utah into fodder

[hasty coyote]

It would accomplish the same thing if you made bucking cost nothing.

[fresh laurel]

You should be screwed against utah if you have low stam

Not use buck even if you cant run or something

Plus loses some logic

But this game isnt logic heavy so idk...

[keen plover]

I mean, you are regardless if bucking costs or doesn't cost stam. Also utah has too much leverage. It's fighting creatures way larger and somehow taking a lot of stamina. Quite bs

[fresh laurel]

Kinda makes sense having a pouncer drain your stam but not by this much or by a baby utah

[hasty coyote]

Then make it cost less stam depending on the size difference.

[fresh laurel]

I imagine it wouldnt feel easy having a 450kg animal clawing on your ribs

[keen plover]

Like pounce already screws you over and forces you to stand still cause of bleed - while taking away your fighting chance by removing your stamina by bucking. Idk, I wouldn't personally be opposed to utah being bucked off with no stam. Or like you guys said, cost less stam

[keen plover]

Sure, but in the context of the game. A 1 hour, easy to survive playable screwing with your long grow dino and taking away the amount of stam it does now? Yeah, no

[fresh laurel]

Lemme just hold buck with little punish rq as i move to a tree or river

Simple

[keen plover]

Map issue tbf. Literally an incline everywhere to inhibit utahs

[fresh laurel]

Just realized how op a mud pool camping rex would be

Anyways

[fresh laurel]

Gorwth shouldnt decide everything

[hasty coyote]

Except that it now can’t alt bite and has Garbo turning.

[fresh laurel]

I mean troodon might have the shortest growth yet, next to hypi while being ig strong enough to be a threat in packs

[fresh laurel]

Funny base bite dmg go brrr

Plus turning might be less of a issue for rex in evrima

[hasty coyote]

Legacy tail riding 2.0 lol

[keen plover]

Well sure? I just don't think solo utahs should take as much stam as now. It's quite stupid. Bleed is an OP tool in the right conditions. Would teach utahs to actually plan their fights rather than mobbing like they can now.

Also, growth should decide a lot

[fresh laurel]

For a pack hunter like utah? Meh

[hasty coyote]

If it has a shorter growth time than dryo, then there’s probably going to be a problem.

[fresh laurel]

Probably should or would at first

Plus trampling will be a huge L for troodon at some point

[keen plover]

doubt it will

Look at ptera, weaker than dryo yet takes longer to grow cause it's a flyer. Now troodon will actually be somewhat strong (in mob potential) and have the ability to fight larger prey in packs? 100% longer than dryo

[fresh laurel]

Except ptera comes with free trollage

[hasty coyote]

Exactly.

[dusky surge]

if its anything like ptera, it will be longer

[keen plover]

Dryo perfect diets is 30 min grow

Ptera is 45-50?

[hasty coyote]

I’d say 40mins-1hr on troo

[dusky surge]

it'll def be interesting to see how troodon is done

since troodon lacks the clear advantage of flight that ptera has

[hasty coyote]

Maybe 30 if it’s very weak and requires like 5 to kill a pachy.

[hasty coyote]

It has venom, which is going to be interesting.

I can see it now:

Carno 3.0: now with venom

[dusky surge]

its gonna get destroyed by utahs and carnos tho imho

still reckon we need nocturnal dryo to
A: Give it a niche and reason to actually play it
B: Give troodon something more consistent to hunt at the same hours its around

[hasty coyote]

It should get destroyed, if it’s dumb. A smart troo can easily escape because it’s tiny and dark, perfect for hiding in a bush.

[fresh laurel]

Odd chat

Anyways all i got was utah should take longer to grow

[azure crescent]

utah carno cera and teno will wreck troodon imo

utah is equally as agile and has that alt attack

carno because speed and sheer damage

cera because brawler

and teno because it can attack from all sides

[rapid bison]

Yeah guys troodon can take on a stego totally trust me

[dusky surge]

with enough time and troodons, sure

[rapid bison]

no

[azure crescent]

yes

if its like 15+ troodons that have patience

which granted it is rare but its possible

[dusky surge]

wdym no lmao

they're literally venomous

[azure crescent]

this applies to every playable

anything can kill a stego given time and numbers

[dusky surge]

troodon is better designed for stego than, say, velo

[azure crescent]

indeed

you can place 10 megalanias around a stego and they’ll kill it

curious how to see what meg venom will be like

what would be the most interesting yet viable option

[golden coral]

Could always put some kind of weight limit on the venom so it only works on things up to a certain size or so.

[dusky surge]

meg venom being anti-coagulant would be ideal imho

[dusky surge]

that sounds kinda lame tbh

[azure crescent]

i can mostly see that apply to sauropods only

[dusky surge]

venom would obviously have less impact on things with larger bodies, sure

from dev hints, i assume that the effectiveness of venom may correlate to the total bloodpool

[azure crescent]

anything smaller than sauropods should still be effected, although less

[golden coral]

I don't know, depends on the size of the thing using the venom too. A dilo would have a higher limit than a troodon for example.

[azure crescent]

i like this, and if the victim tries to wallow, the bleeding just gets worse because infections

[dusky surge]

it'd simply distribute more venom into the bloodstream. It's still venomous

[golden coral]

It is, but there obviously have to be some limits to how much it can effect and what.

[dusky surge]

not really, it'd just be far less impactful

a tiny dose of venom vs a massive creature won't do much

if anything at all

[golden coral]

So.. that's kind of what I meant then? Size would limit how effective the venom would be?

[azure crescent]

Picture this: a meg gets a good ambush on a carno and bites it on its leg like twice, the carno runs and tries to escape to dirty water or mud, and then after some time the bleed just doubles in speed until the carno leaves the mud for some time

[hollow canyon]

27 iirc

[analog mirage]

I wonder how they’ll differ Megalania and Troodons venom

Ik dilos venom will cause hallucinations but that only at night so hmmmm

[azure crescent]

megalania: prolongs bleed and makes it way more intense
troodon: ???

[somber sphinx]

Troodon: death

[analog mirage]

Troodon could probably just have a chip away damage for health like how hunger works so the more venom inflicted the faster it goes

[azure crescent]

i guess that would work

each tick being like 15-40 dmg?

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[hasty coyote]

Well they said it’s not going to have a variable value. You either do or don’t have venom.

[analog mirage]

Hmmm. That seems like a issue, if it’s not stackable then In theory one Troodon is plenty to do harm. And what would more than one Troodon add if it’s all the same amount of venom

[hasty coyote]

They said each troo has a certain amount of venom. So like one bite could last 5 seconds and recharges the venom in 15 secs, so you need at least 3 to constantly apply venom

[analog mirage]

So venom is a timed thing?

[hexed sorrel]

@primal harbor wasn't it proven recently that deinosuchus had a weaker bite force than rex?

[azure crescent]

where was that proven?

i find that quite hard to believe in all honesty

[hexed sorrel]

I forgot where, but even I thought deino had a really strong bite force, but it was an outdated study back in like 2012 when the scientists apparently just scaled up the modern day crocodile/alligator and got the '23,000 psi'. Now, I forgot where the new study has been shown, but this one guy brought up these 2 guys who made a new study in like 2020 I think it was showing some fossils of the bite marks made by a deinosuchus to not be as damaging as by a T rex.

[primal harbor]

oh huh

[azure crescent]

hey fun fact, biteforce =/= damage

a shark does more damage with a bite than a nile crocodile

[primal harbor]

yes bit it does mean bone break

lmao

[azure crescent]

also wouldn’t it be weird for deinosuchus to have a proportionally weak biteforce?

[hexed sorrel]

compared to what?

perhaps it had a different killing method? idk

[primal harbor]

other crocs probably

[hexed sorrel]

like a lion has a weaker bite force than a jaguar

diff killing methods ig

[azure crescent]

compared to nothing, just the fact it was a crocodilian that hunted turtles (which need to be cracked) that was also larger than rex

[hasty coyote]

I’d have to see what the fracture severity is like to say wether deino should or shouldn’t have bone break.

Like current fractures: probably not

[azure crescent]

^

[azure crescent]

jaguars only have stronger bite P4P iirc

[hexed sorrel]

I really dont think that crocodiles of that size would be seeking out turtles

[azure crescent]

there’s plenty of evidence that deino hunted sea turtles

[hasty coyote]

There were some big turtles it could catch

[azure crescent]

or atleast large turtles of some kind

[hexed sorrel]

also the fact that jaguars bite was evolved to go through the cranium while lions where just to suffocate prey

[azure crescent]

it was actually somewhat specialised for turtle killing like modern gators iirc

[primal harbor]

I haven't looked into it much so you could be right

[hexed sorrel]

hold one, lemme try finding it

[primal harbor]

all the biggest crocs lived with the biggest turtles

[azure crescent]

oh yeah i know, it’s just that it doesn’t make sense for deino to have a weaker biteforce than rex

[primal harbor]

like that shit was pretty much synonymous with each other

[azure crescent]

when there’s plenty of things that suggest the contrary

[azure crescent]

yes, but alligatoroids specifically are more efficient at it

mostly just the snout shape though

[primal harbor]

yeah allogatoroids I should say yeah

[hexed sorrel]

Gignac and Erickson

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-02161-w

[azure crescent]

but i’d say that the fact deino was larger than rex + was an alligatoroid + regularly killed and harmed large turtles are good enough factors to believe it bit harder than rex

[hexed sorrel]

idk, im not the paleontologist lol.

[azure crescent]

there’s also things like it hunted para (iirc), which could ALSO reach sizes that nearly matched deino’s

[hexed sorrel]

also @hollow canyon is the one who told me about this

[azure crescent]

ah i see

[primal harbor]

to be fair just under rex like what they said could still do that

maybe

[hexed sorrel]

argue w him xD

[azure crescent]

any biteforce above half of rex’s bite can break bones honestly

[primal harbor]

yeah so I still stand with what I say to it being able to kill much bigger stuff

it lived with para for crying out loud lmao

[azure crescent]

i don’t agree very much, i only see this happening if the lunge gets replaced with a tug of war that applies to all sizes above a certain threshold

but with lunge as it is deino is pretty much specialized to hunt mid and small tiers

[hollow canyon]

it didn't

[primal harbor]

fair

[hexed sorrel]

lmao

[hollow canyon]

We have remains of things bitten by both and we know which bite did what

the only contender that T.rex has for the strongest biteforce among the terrestrial animals is Purussaurus, a gigantic caiman that lived much later than Deinosuchus but may have reached similar sizes

that thing caused bones of the things it bit to just implode

a relatively small one bit harder than a fully grown and much larger extant saltwater croc

Deino bit weaker than that

that doesn't mean it couldn't break bones - depends on what bones and of what animal but in general it could definitely break some bones

[hexed sorrel]

looks like its mouth got stung by a bee

[primal harbor]

alright that is good to know

[hollow canyon]

Yea, it has a hilarious jaw

[primal harbor]

puru is on somg crack

it's jaw is so wide it is nuts

[hollow canyon]

yea, very much so - that thing screams "biteforce"

[hexed sorrel]

the head looks like my attempt to draw a rex

[primal harbor]

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus bit hard but not quite that ridiculously hard

[primal harbor]

ik puru was bigger than deino for a bit till we got a bigger deino specimen

[hollow canyon]

I'm also semi-opposed to it doing fractures for now but I don't want to get into that conversation right now since I'm a bit busy

[hexed sorrel]

wait when did puru-whateverthefuck live?

[tall bronze]

👀

[hexed sorrel]

cuz I never heard of her

[primal harbor]

not in the mesozoic era

much more recentl

[hollow canyon]

Miocene, much later, it lived with like the largest turtle of all times and its biteforce likely was caused by the arms race with that thing

[hexed sorrel]

so was it stronger than rex? or not known yet?

[hollow canyon]

about as strong, both are estimated at around 8t

[hexed sorrel]

pfffffff

how havent I heard of this

[hollow canyon]

Deino is likely somewhere around 3t-6t

[primal harbor]

I do not trust wiki times but it says 16-5.3 mil years ago if you want something exact

will guarantee is a more narrow time than that

[hollow canyon]

Wiki is pretty decent-ish for paleo stuff you just need to check the references

alright guys, I'm out, busy as I said, have a good one

[primal harbor]

times for what I have seen it is outdated or a hit or a miss

[hexed sorrel]

cya

[primal harbor]

like everything in cedar mountain is just wrong for some reason

have a good one

[azure crescent]

i see

so rex really pushed to the extreme

god i love archosaurs

[hollow canyon]

yea think of it this way too - it was a heterodont meaning it has teeth of different length and structure, that means that when it bites you have roadspike-like structures being rammed into the prey first

meaning that all the biteforce is spread among a smaller surface area

= higher "punching" power

alright, now I'm seriously out

[azure crescent]

we’re talking about rex here right

[analog mirage]

Either way, it’s a game and deino seems to be placed somewhere on the scale of psuedo apex’s like stego and Para

And since it’s not built for Combat I don’t feel buffing it’s bite is the best idea but giving it scaled fractures is fine

[hexed sorrel]

para?

[analog mirage]

Yes Para

You know how big it is right?

[hexed sorrel]

legacy ruined it for me lmfao

either way its not THAT big

[hollow canyon]

yes that's all about Rex

[analog mirage]

Para is definitely still a psuedo apex

[hexed sorrel]

how much did it weigh?

[analog mirage]

Lemme check

[hexed sorrel]

I mean I consider acro a pseudo apex

surely not bigger than acro right?

[ocean sentinel]

Hadrosaurs tend to be grossly underestimated by media.

[analog mirage]

It’s definitely bigger than Acro

[hexed sorrel]

fr?

I need prood

[ocean sentinel]

Good example being Edmontosaurus, which is portrayed as Rex fodder, when they could actually grow larger than Tyrannosaurus, and an adult would've been a risky hunt. Not sure about para though, it was probably a bit smaller.

[hexed sorrel]

proof

[analog mirage]

Acro and Para are roughly the same size

[ocean sentinel]

I know the Isle isn't too big on accuracy, but I'd still love to see hadrosaurs done some justice.

[hexed sorrel]

legacy put it ti 3.6'

[hexed sorrel]

yes

tbf legacy wwas just dondi being a rex fanboy

[analog mirage]

Para will probably be more of a generalist for Psuedo apex’s

[hexed sorrel]

really dont think therizinosaurus and para should be in the same tier

[analog mirage]

Theri is debatable

Might be even considered a apex

[hexed sorrel]

its behind para 💀

or...infront

[analog mirage]

Oh no that’s just a size chart in no particular order

If Theri is a psuedo apex it’s like the top above stego

[hexed sorrel]

I reckon theri would put a good fight against a giga

[analog mirage]

Definitely

But Para is basically the same tier as Sucho and Acro behind Stego

[hexed sorrel]

but giga is an apex no?

[analog mirage]

Yes

[hollow canyon]

Giga's twice larger

Theri's concept also shows it running from it

[hexed sorrel]

my life is a damn lie

[analog mirage]

Theri would definitely put up a good fight for Giga

[hexed sorrel]

in evrima perhaps

[analog mirage]

It just wouldn’t really have the health to take many hits

[hexed sorrel]

maybe not irl since its half its weight lol

[analog mirage]

Theri is more or less the glass canon of Apex’s

[hexed sorrel]

what we thinking theri damage?

1,150?

[analog mirage]

Depends

[hasty coyote]

id have to see it with other apexes, everything its fighting isnt in the game yet so its hard to speculate numbers

[analog mirage]

What’s stegos tail swing damage wise?

[hexed sorrel]

1150 too much

[hasty coyote]

1250 i believe

[hexed sorrel]

450 each hand

so 900

[analog mirage]

Theri might have a multi hit attack so if so who knows

[hasty coyote]

and heavy bleed, maybe a multiplier similar to utah pounce

[hexed sorrel]

I dont think it should dish out more damage than stegi

stegi lmao

[analog mirage]

Theri would probably deal around the same damage as stego swing but more bleed

[hasty coyote]

but again, id have to see how it compares in speed and hp to its predators to see what we need to give it for damage

[analog mirage]

I bet Theri will have a good speed and trot

Health will be its weakness

[hexed sorrel]

how tho

since weight=health

maybe heavy damage multipliers

[analog mirage]

Compared to most things it’ll have to fight it won’t have as much health but def better speed and relatable damage

That’s what a glass canon is

[hollow canyon]

Theri isn't really an apex, it's just way too small to be in that category

as for Para - it is like a hadrosaur version of Allo with an enormous size range

varying from but a couple of tonnes up to 11t iirc

[analog mirage]

In the concept art Theri seems around the same size as Giga

But like I said Theri is debatable between a Psuedo apex and Apex. If it is a apex though it would be at the bottom of them

[golden coral]

Concept sizes are.. a bit iffy I believe. Also we have at least one dev stating they see acro as apex, for what that is worth.

[hollow canyon]

It seeming around that size doesn't mean it is at that size and concept arts are not to be trusted when it comes to sizes

it's clearly trying to get away from the Giganoto there instead of fighting it

[azure crescent]

it’s taller, but not as large

[hollow canyon]

it's not even "taller", we don't measure the height of theropods or dinosaurs in general by looking at how high they hold their heads - the height is measured at the hip

I'm relatively sure Giganoto is taller at the hip

[ocean sentinel]

Mass is more important anyway, especially since it determines health in this game.

The only way the height would help theri is if it was enough to keep it's head out of reach of Giga's jaws.

[analog mirage]

Tbf it is a Glass Canon, it 100% has the damage to deal up to apex’s, but it for sure doesn’t have as much health. Hence why it’s debatable to be a psuedo apex

[teal sand]

i mean pseudo apex is basically just saying top mid tier with extra steps

[azure crescent]

Oh yeah i know, i meant taller at the absolute highest point of their body

mostly because of the more upright build and just longer neck obviously

[hollow canyon]

Yea pretty much, it could maybe helpt it protect its head

[azure crescent]

@alpine plover the biteforce of ptera was already buffed

no need for any further buffs to it

@alpine plover the only fair buff carno deserves is just reverting the blood multipliers back to what they were

the stamina is fine honestly, specially in early life stages

[alpine plover]

Really?

[azure crescent]

yes

[alpine plover]

How much?

[azure crescent]

it was by 5 N, which actually makes quite a big difference

[alpine plover]

Ah okay mb

[azure crescent]

all good

[keen plover]

20n is A LOT for a flyer. Any more and it's way too good

[azure crescent]

for reference, if pt was the size of a utah its biteforce would be 200

aka 800 if it was the size of a carno

[keen plover]

Yeah, quite yikes

I wish I could cap my deino at 4T

[azure crescent]

i still wish deino's growth slowed down at around 60% size

so that the adults actually deserve that size

and would also give the feeling of "never stops growing" to deino

[hollow canyon]

Tbh I'd just decrease its size and keep its biteforce as it is

there's some really weird discrepancy between how tanky it is and how weak its bite is

at different stages of growth you have to attack an equally grown Deino some 25 times to kill it

[somber sphinx]

4 ton adult deino and 8 ton elder

[tranquil pawn]

[somber sphinx]

So if people want to be bigger they have to earn it

[dusky surge]

4 ton adult deino getting obliterated by any stego that so much as looks at it

[keen plover]

Eh. I don't want to stop people from getting their 8T deino. Just wish that a perk or something idk let you have a 4T deino.

[somber sphinx]

I wouldn’t mind that but I also wish that if people wanted to be a big gator then they would have to earn it, it wil probably happen when more semi-aquatics are added so it’s more challenging to grow a deino

[ocean sentinel]

Deino just needs more threats to it when growing than itself.

Really all apex predators should be pretty hard to grow to make up for being so powerful when fully grown.

[azure crescent]

hopefully 4.2 ton sucho will fix that (plz 4.2 ton sucho)

[somber sphinx]

4.2 sucho would be perfect

[tranquil pawn]

[hollow canyon]

Doesn't make much of a chance from the current Stego - also Deino at that size could be quite a bit faster than the current one.

Also - Stego should get a speed nerf Idk why this thing didn't havet its running speed nerfed when everything else did

it's part of that point but it's also a separate general point

whether there are any changes to Deino - Stego shouldn't be running as fast as it does right now

think about making its trot faster to compensate perhaps but it running at a speed of 26.4km/h is just bad

[analog mirage]

I think a huge part of deino being easy to grow atm is it has literally nothing to kill it in the water besides itself, while stego has many things that wanna kill it early on

[hollow canyon]

tbh I got back to growing it on this patch and it's not quite as easy as it used to be

the change that made carnivores lose the perfect diet at juvenile hits it hard

[dusky surge]

they nerfed carni diet leniency

[hollow canyon]

yea

[dusky surge]

so yea its harder

[hollow canyon]

that hits Deino hard

[dusky surge]

carno and deino especially, yea

[hollow canyon]

now I haven't grown Stego since that one time on update 2 but I actually suspect it might be easier to grow than Deino now

[dusky surge]

honestly carno didn't need a nerf, the universal diet nerf was already a huge impact to their ability to overpopulate

[dusky surge]

im very doubtful

deino has at least got some defence mechanisms at all ages for any predator. Stego gets fucked by anything that sees it moving around before its 50% grown and isnt stupid

[hollow canyon]

I believe that currently - the longer growth time the easier it is for a herbivore to outgrow a carnivore

I don't get spotted by people so it doesn't really affect me very much

afk growth ftw

well it's not complete "afk"

My Deino actually got hungry yesterday

and I've heard another Deino stumbling around so I decided to eat it

turned out it was much, much bigger than me

mistakes were made

that was the time for plan B

https://tenor.com/view/joseph-joestar-jjba-nigerundayo-smokey-ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-gif-19743448

either way - Deino is actually much harder to grow than it used to be

it requires a tonne of food during young adult stage

Stego is better at afking by the virtue of being a herbivore I'm pretty sure

so I expect it to be easier to grow

[analog mirage]

The blood lose nerfs were uneeded as well since Utah got fixed and hunting Carno is almost too easy

The food value changes weren’t great either on top of less ai spawns

[hasty coyote]

On top of nesting

[hollow canyon]

I'm alright with those changes tbh, increase Carno's agility to compensate and it's fine imho

[analog mirage]

All it really does is make playing as Carno more frustrating if anything

[hollow canyon]

Let me put it this way - I think it's perfectly fine to have animals with a higher metabolism that need to keep on being active all the time, I think that suits Carno however in that case it should have a relatively fast regeneration to keep on going all the time

as for it being weak to bleed - not ideal since it's meant to be a small game hunter that relies on running but I think that's passable if it's more agile and more of an actual threat to small agile stuff like Utahs

at the moment it's honestly rather absurd how easy it is to juke a Carno if you're at least half-decent with Utah and you don't lag/have fps drops

[analog mirage]

Carno should have a fast metabolism but we just need more ai spawns and gain food like we used to

[dusky surge]

there were no such changes

to food values

[analog mirage]

Don’t bodys give less food than before?

[dusky surge]

nope

[analog mirage]

Or was the intake more

[dusky surge]

that was literally never said

also no

Hunger Intake
Mass removed per tick increased.

it just made you eat faster

[analog mirage]

I know they changed how much food you get from boars cause they barely fill a Carno anymore

[dusky surge]

specifically boars yes

[analog mirage]

I would revert how much food boar gives since smaller things still have to fight it to get food

[hollow canyon]

And yea Carno didn't get some food nerf

it still wants to eat a lot because it has relatively the shortest hunger time in the game

compared to other carnivores(minus Pteranodon I think?)

due to the fact that Carno is also quite big

you actually get less longevity out of meal on it than on Utah

as in - let's say you eat 10 boars that get you to full food on Carno

[analog mirage]

Just make ai spawn more frequent and revert the boar food values cause it’s a relatively big ai

[hollow canyon]

brb need to do something in the game

[analog mirage]

Small game is a relatively subjective term as Carno is quite large

And for the love of all things please revert the weight growth changes it’s completely obsurd

[hollow canyon]

Yea well I believe Carno should be hunting things up to its own size

but there specifically I was referring to things 1/3rd/quarter of its size

[analog mirage]

Tbf Carno could probably hunt some mid tiers in groups of like 3+

[dusky surge]

idk man

it really doesnt have much going for it in the realm of punching up

[hollow canyon]

Idk either

[hollow canyon]

^

[dusky surge]

id reckon an allo could still kick its shit regardless

[analog mirage]

3 Carnos against a Allo seems fine to me

[hasty coyote]

I’m not sure if they can just “revert” it because they had to rework it to add hatchlings. But they should definitely change the scaling.

[analog mirage]

Or yeah just change the scaling to be even between them

[dusky surge]

900 additional kilos, better biteforce and bleed, plus an ability that actually works on their opponent and arguably higher agility

3 carnos would really have to brute force that allo to death

probably losing 1-2 carns in the process

i wouldnt even do it because it seems entirely non-worthwhile

[analog mirage]

We will just have to see when things are added

[keen plover]

1 carno is 100% dying. Imagine being grabbed. The bleed would probably end you or the raw damage. For you to hurt the allo, you would need to actually get into range of the grapple...

Although 3 carnos... Sounds tough

[silk harness]

If allo has the same weight as legacy, it would take 16 carno bites to the body to kill it. That's not a crazy high amount, but its hard to predict how carno will handle taking a hit from allo. I imagine the way bleed is handled will be pretty different by the time allo is released.

[analog mirage]

It’s all up for speculation

[keen plover]

Yep and speculation is fun

[keen plover]

Probably have proper bleed values for bites

[lone hamlet]

people dumping their yt video about a single instance of them being not too bad at something thinking they will convince everyone into their own opinion (which is often bad) is terrible

[wheat ridge]

"why can a herbi kill a carni? buff carni :<" balance feedback in a nutshell sometimes

[solar lodge]

when it's not that it's "why can't this carnivore kill every other playable in the roster? where is the realism"

[wheat ridge]

ye its really annoying, i hope they keep the balance, its better than in legacy were rex>giga>>>>>>>>>everything else

i dread the rex release lol, imagine the whine if he loses against 2 stegos or something

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't mind rex losing to a stego in a 1v1 facetanking contest (or rather face to butt)

[wheat ridge]

you would not but probably 99% of rex players

[slim dragon]

They gotta cope

[slender kettle]

Why is it when anyone mentions the slightest nerf to Stego, it’s immediately met with backlash.? Just goes to show this game is polluted by role-players who want a blissful eat and grow sim.

[wheat ridge]

dude i dont even play stego, its boring af but carni players cry about every herbi that beats their fav dino

[solar lodge]

why is stego beeing strong a problem is not like it can chase you

[wheat ridge]

stego is balanced to other semi apexe thats why they wont nerf it

[dusky surge]

rex should lose to a stego 1v1 if the game is to be balanced

either that or stego outruns rex which would be fundamentally fucking ridiculous

[dusky surge]

its not even a semi-apex its just an apex

the sheer damage output on the bastard promoted it to apex with the big boys

[wheat ridge]

why cant carni players just not accept the strongest dino atm is a fucking stego? it cant chase shit, nobody would say shit if a carni is the strongest but a herbi its somehow a warcrime

[dusky surge]

herbi is prey animal and MUST be killed by the superior and mighty carnivore

[wheat ridge]

the servers are overpopulated with deinos and utahs, but stego is the problem lol

[dusky surge]

there exists no ecosystem irl where a giant herbivore rules over basically everything and no carnivore can really do anything about it

[slender kettle]

A Rex loosing a face tank to a Stego? You’ve got to be joking. The predator with the most unholy bite force in history should lose to an animal with the skull size of a walnut? What are you smoking?

[slender kettle]

Thank you

[dusky surge]

rawdawg holy shit

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU ACTUALLY FELL FOR THE SARCASM

[wheat ridge]

xD

[solar lodge]

small minds are easy to trick

[wheat ridge]

it was pretty obvious

[dusky surge]

you ever heard of elephants and hippos dude

hippos are ONLY preyed upon while young because the predators know better

elephants will literally gore any foolish predator dumb enough to take it on as an adult

[wheat ridge]

herbivore can be really scary and ruthless and some have no natural enemies but in the isle some think they should just be walking around eating grass and let themself get eaten by carnivores for some reason

[dusky surge]

oh and bison are another example of a herbivore far too large and powerful to have any notable predators

unless they're notably weak enough to be worth attacking

[solar lodge]

quick reminder to deinos out there stego can be drowned while it's under 82% growth, so next time don't cuddle with them and wait until they are adult to complain you can't kill one

[dusky surge]

very funny that you agreed with obvious sarcasm meant to jab at the "herbis should eat grass and die" mentality

when irl we have several "stegos" to speak of

that do the exact same thing stegos do with the exact same lack of consequence

[wheat ridge]

if you cant fight it, you should be able to run from it, is the best balance philosophy imo, everything can walk away from a stego, exept a dumb landcroc

[dusky surge]

exactly

do what you'd do with a hippo and just dont fucking mess with it

leave it alone

[slender kettle]

The problem is that nothing can challenge a 100% Stego. It’s practically invincible.

[dusky surge]

pack of raptors can, 2 competent deinos can

[slender kettle]

That’s nature, that’s not a balanced game. When you have an animal on the roster that can go unchallenged, the majority of players will play as it and leave carnivores with no chance of a successful hunt.

[dusky surge]

did you know that deinos and utahs vastly outpopulate stegos

[solar lodge]

thats why we have hordes of utahs and deinos and not stegos

[dusky surge]

at the current moment, stegos sit barely above dryos and hypsis in terms of population

[slender kettle]

Packs of raptors will have half of their pack die or more before they kill it. Dieno’s don’t get the chance for a headshot because they’re too slow.

[solar lodge]

ppl who horde the strongest dino wont play stego because it can't kill anything unless that things wants to fight it

[dusky surge]

deinos can and have killed stegos in pairs. It takes competence to do, but its possible

Once raptors get the rythm going the stego is as good as fucked

[slender kettle]

I’ve seen skilled YouTubers take on stegos. It’s never that easy.

[slim dragon]

If half of a raptor pack dies while hunting a stego, they basically lose 3 to 4 hours of growth, while the stego loses 5. Yes, that's definitely balanced. In fact that's slightly in favor of utahs.

[dusky surge]

i've actually just killed stegos rather than watched youtubers do it

lmao

[wheat ridge]

killing crocs and stegos are the most satisfying, against stegos u have to use more than 1 braincell and bait his attacks until it doesnt have stam anymore

patience and timing is everything, its not legacy were u can just go up to everything and spam left click until it dies

[solar lodge]

imagine having to think instead of going rmb spam, unacceptable

[dusky surge]

its harder to kill a deino than a stego lmao

the only thing that can reliably kill a deino is a deino because it can just submerge itself and enter invincible mode

[wheat ridge]

nobody five a fuck if a carni cant be killed, but a dirty grass eater? heresy!!!!

[dusky surge]

stegos can be hunted by competent utahs, clever deinos, killed by their own kind, slaughtered as babies, so on

[solar lodge]

i guess it's easier to complain until every herbivore is just fodder.... kinda like legacy

[wheat ridge]

ye legacy balanced was awefull

like rex was OP until evrima release lol

well it still is i guess

[solar lodge]

hope para gets a good rework from legacy poor thing couldn't run away nor fight properly

[slim dragon]

Eat grass and die

[solar lodge]

i guess para was balanced

[wheat ridge]

ye man para was just a sad existence, i have hope they do it better in evrima, they did good with teno

[azure crescent]

and gustave but that fucker is an exception and shouldn't be considered

[hollow canyon]

it really wasn't

As for Para - it simply got overnerfed, it was absurdly broken before the nerf that left it in its current state

That thing could outrun an ambushing Giga while having the largest stamina pool in the game and hitting like a truck

[analog mirage]

Hopefully Para gets love in Evrima

[hollow canyon]

it ran down Dilos, Allos, just about everything(except Utah, Galli and Carno I guess)

The simple reality is that for some reason the state of Para was negatively correlated to the state of Maia. Whenever Para was good, Maia was garbage, when Maia became good Para turned into trash.

[arctic summit]

@alpine plover I agree with the Carno statement. Maybe not a stamina buff but definitely a hunger buff. Utah players usually just react with 🧂 but its such a pain to grow for 2 hours just to die from hunger because i didnt eat 300 boars

[alpine plover]

yes...

[arctic summit]

living vaccum

[alpine plover]

utahs are the most op right now and their hunger barely drops lol

and so easy to grow

[wheat ridge]

With the broken hit box and the additional 10% max hp Dmg Rex did with every bone break it clearly was op, it could solo unbalanced sandbox Dinos like shan't and spino with a little bit of skill and facetanked every
survival Dino in legacy... Most people on legacy play Rex of course they say it's not op

[alpine plover]

i bet all the people who dont agree with me are just carno haters...and dont see how weak they are

[analog mirage]

Carno hunger is fine, we just need more ai to spawn and allow Carnos to “graze” on them

[azure hinge]

@alpine plover i mean i dont think its strongest 1v1

i think stego is 100%

i think utah is the most fun right now

fast grow time and you can still deal enough damage to kill stuff

i think thats closer to what most things should be, except big big apexes

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't op, this dino was only good for one thing and one thing only - 1v1ing other dinosaurs

it had an abysmal stamina pool, poor turn rate, meh trot, great swimming speed(for gods know what reason), trash bleed, absurd damage and the bonebreak which made it so good at 1v1ing things allowing it to apply the overpowered CC

could've been hunted by packs of smaller animals or even pairs of larger ones

and no - I didn't play much Rex, I think I had one on legacy when Evrima came out

avoiding T.rex wasn't that hard, it was a bit of nuisance to deal with due to its speed and simplicity but I've never had the impression that playing against it was unfair

I guess unless you played trike but that was more so on trike being rather awful

[hollow canyon]

I mean let's be serious for a moment - this community really doesn't like Carno

and that's not really without a reason

[hasty coyote]

For once, I am fine with carno. But I’m playing pachy, and that matchup is decently balanced atm. If pachy is bad, mispositioned, or outnumbered, it dies. If the pachy is about equal skill and number to the carno, you can break and run. If the carno has a skill issue, it gets slowly beat to death with a 500kg sledgehammer.

[analog mirage]

As solo Pachy?

Only matchup I feel is pretty fair is Carno vs Teno

[hasty coyote]

Both solo and groups, but I was mostly writing about solo there because balancing groups is much more difficult.

[analog mirage]

If a single Carno is dying to a solo pachy that’s a hilariously bad player

[hasty coyote]

You would be surprised.

[analog mirage]

I’ve never really died to a cocky Pachy

If a pachy has ever tried to solo me as Carno I always come out on top

[hasty coyote]

That’s because you have a functional brain, some of these carnos got 3 neurons on a good day

[analog mirage]

True

But pachy is so underpowered atm

[hasty coyote]

That’s why I said “if the carno has a skill issue”

[analog mirage]

Bare minimum Pachy just needs to two shot Utah on the body is all I ask

[hasty coyote]

Eh, it’s not too bad atm. The main issues I have are inconsistent breaks and utahs. All I would do would fix the break rate and give pachy more damage on alt or make headslam a move

[analog mirage]

It’s 5 hits to the body on Utah that’s ridiculous

[hasty coyote]

I personally like the idea of choosing to either break or kill when you knock something down. Ram to break, alt/headslam to kill.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah that’s my only issue. Pachy needs a way to deal damage. But buffing ram just makes it too good against larger things and allows it to break, stun, and kill on one move.

[analog mirage]

Here’s what it should be: alt attack for a spammy hitter, ram for heavy fractures and head slam for heavy damage

[hasty coyote]

That’s what I want. But if they decide to just make alt deal damage, I’d be fine with it.

[analog mirage]

I’d be fine If alt was more damage based

[hasty coyote]

Alt is was only good with its current damage because ram did much more and stuns were much longer.

[analog mirage]

Perhaps creatures should have different timed knockdowns, like Teno shorter but Pachy longer ones

[tall bronze]

I will say once more

Head slam doing significant damage to knocked down creatures

[hasty coyote]

That’s what we said we want too, but buffing alt attack is more likely and simple.

[analog mirage]

Head slam would only really be used when someone’s knocked down so just make it a ability if something is knocked down

[hasty coyote]

I’d say make different attacks have different stuns. Alt swing does current stun, but ram does old stun timer.

[hasty coyote]

If pachy can knock it down, then it’s in pachy’s kill range anyway.

So it makes sense.

[hollow canyon]

@near minnow Trust me - you don't want to be charging Deinos(or Stegos for that matter) that will actually cause you to take damage and get stunned.

Iirc the cut-off point for Carno's charge is somewhere around... 2.7t?

things larger than that are a no-no for that ability

I don't disagree with what you're saying though, Carno does indeed get decent when it packs up, solo it's quite awful atm.

[tall bronze]

Isn't Carno supposed to be more solitary though? 😮

I've always been so confused as to what Carno is intended to be..... ;-;

[alpine plover]

@near minnow only thing weak abt carno now is its blood pool. u should never try to attack stegs or crocs lol. and tbh if you lose to anything else its just a skill issue.

[near minnow]

never said carnos should attack them, just stating that those 2 are some of the most common types of dinos. As for utahs, you are will almost never find utahs solo, and gl fighting 3+ utahs solo. As for teno, if a teno stands its ground and fight it will be harder for them to win - if your strategy as a carno is to do run by bites, but a teno is going to out last you in a stamina battle so if they choose to run, you arent getting that meal.

[azure crescent]

stegos are rarer than carnos on average

carno has no reason to care about stegos even existing since it can avoid all confrontation with adults

and by the time a teno catches up with you if it chooses to chase you itll have like no stamina and you can likely facetank it lmao

also i am maybe very lucky but i have never met any singular teno that tried to chase me down after i retreat as carno

carno is fine, it just needs a revert on the bleeding multipliers honestly

[near minnow]

okay so you misunderstood everything i stated

oops didnt mean to hit enter, anyway

[azure crescent]

that is true, i did not understand fully what you had said, my bad

the part where you said stego was common is still mostly wrong though

and i will be honest, i find it perfectly fine if 4-5 utahs can take down a carno

[near minnow]

stegos are way more common than that, on p much every server ive played on, but thats largely irrelevant my point was steggos are more common than any other dino besides utah/carno/deino/teno - the reason why this matters is because when these are most common dinosaurs this is what you have for a diet. i wasnt suggesting you should fight them, merely that they are taking up one of few slots of food available that other players are fighting.

teno vs carno I meant that in a 1v1 the skill ceiling is higher for teno, meaning the teno has to work harder to win but they can win and you dont want to use your charge on them (you dont want to use your charge on anything but other carnos given the most common dinos). But the teno can run away, their stamina and ability to jump means they have an advantage to get away, not chase you down.

[azure crescent]

stegos are way more common than that

you find stegos as often as you do pteras on average

and i do get your point

[near minnow]

whats your point here? that pteradons are more common? youre not going to eat pteradons so why are you bringing this up.

in order to get ptera they have to be literally afk

better chance of getting a deino

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message dude i was gonna flip while reading that but was satisfied at the end

[azure crescent]

i’m bringing this up because stego isn’t all that common

i just used ptera as reference

[near minnow]

my point is that it is far more common than other dinosaurs

your diet is going to be the most common dionosaurs if you look at the chart please tell me the most common dinosaurs

[azure crescent]

its literally not i just showed you it isnt

[near minnow]

BRUH 15% is more common than 1%

is this that hard of a concept to grasp?

[azure crescent]

wow so therefore its more common than other dinosaurs

the other dinosaurs that fill up to 40% space in the same server

[azure crescent]

the most common dinosaurs are mostly in carno diet, sadly dryo is barely played

[near minnow]

utah is 40% by itself so that means every other dinosaur by default isnt common at all? thats nonsense im done with this convo. my point is that you are going to run into a stego far more often than a dryo/hypsi/pachy which are all things a carno could more easily eat than a flipping steggo.

[azure crescent]

you’re missing my point

[near minnow]

no youre missing my point

[azure crescent]

“15% is more than 1% so therefore stego is more common than the other dinosaurs”

[near minnow]

yes the ones i hadnt mentioned it is more common wtf

[azure crescent]

the only dinosaurs that are rarer than stego are dryo and hypsi

all other species are more common

[near minnow]

pachy?

[azure crescent]

right, pachy too

that guy went to shit in U5

[near minnow]

right and pterra youre never going to eat, so for all intents and purposes it doesnt even exist

your available player diet, as an adult carno is going to be steggos, deinos, utahs, other carnos, and tenos

[azure crescent]

you have carno, utah and teno that can give you a perfect diet and are relatively common

hunger drain is kind of a bitch when ai values decreased

and populations too

[hollow canyon]

Are they?

Even the chart you posted shows that Stegos and Carnos are about as popular as one another, there isn't some enormous difference between the two

I see a tonne of both

[azure crescent]

these charts vary a lot, but they usually don’t go too far from what i showed

i did contradict myself just now but thats just poor wording

[hollow canyon]

Ermmm no, that chart is a specific chart posted by Poutine Italienne from his server

there's no "multiple" charts

it's just this one

either way - it shows that Stego and Carno are about as popular

[azure crescent]

not really, every few hours there’s a new one

[hollow canyon]

might be some 2-3% difference

[azure crescent]

This is the most recent one, looking better apart from teno i’d say

[hollow canyon]

mind showing it to me?

No, this is the one posted by Poutine Italienne as I said

he posted that a few days ago

it's from a private server

[azure crescent]

it updated

im in the server

the bot updated the chart a few hours ago

4 minutes ago

[hollow canyon]

idk chief that looks exactly the same as it did when he posted it 2-3 days ago

I don't see any difference between these two

[azure crescent]

idk what to tell you

the bot posted it not me lmao

[hollow canyon]

All I'm saying is what I posted above is from 3 days ago or so

what you posted looks exactly the same

I'd need to see another chart, preferably for some other server

[azure crescent]

sounds good to me

idk if other servers have this tho

[hollow canyon]

it's the same chart all the time, it looks exactly the same as it did when it was first posted 3 days ago

that's still beside the point though

[azure crescent]

wait i posted the wrong one

[hollow canyon]

Carno and Stego are just as popular according to that

oh fair enough, that does look different

[azure crescent]

ye its more spread out

i just clicked the wrong image by accident lol

[hollow canyon]

goddamn the pachy population exploded

[azure crescent]

ye its weird

usually pachy is kinda rare there

[hollow canyon]

again though - it's just one, private server

[near minnow]

ive never seen that many pachys

[hollow canyon]

we could really use having this data for the officials

I see them every now and then but yea definitely not that much

[azure crescent]

ah yeah ofc, its just the limited information we have on other servers that makes this tricky

[alpine plover]

You can find an average using math with all the data but it does generally seem that the carno and stego population are ruffly the same

[azure crescent]

i’d imagine officials have more stegos because of carebears and that type of people

[hollow canyon]

Carnos are... rare-ish in my experience, I hear them a lot but see them not that much

Stegos are a very similar case

but I think I see them more

[azure crescent]

carnos seem to be more skittish in this update, although they are loud sometimes

[hollow canyon]

I see megapacks every now and then

which isn't surprising

[azure crescent]

i had a carno with 2 subadults try to hunt my teno

[hollow canyon]

Carno is an absolute mess of a design

[azure crescent]

the second i crossed a river he just left

[hollow canyon]

yea they can't follow you across a river

[azure crescent]

you couldve had the subs distract while the adult went around

[alpine plover]

The model design?

[hollow canyon]

gameplay design

[azure crescent]

the blood multipliers for carno just kinda made them very skittish and afraid

[hollow canyon]

it's antithetical to what it's supposed to be doing

[azure crescent]

ambush predator

needs to run a decent distance to activate the ability that makes a very distinct sound that is supposed to be an ambushing tool

[hollow canyon]

it's the fastest animal in the game that turns badly - its special ability makes it... run faster and turn worse(literally the last thing you'd want from it), its meant to be a small game hunter, relying on preying on animals smaller than itself but... it's at its best when it packs into absurd numbers

[hollow canyon]

yea I really don't think Carno is meant to be an ambush predator

[alpine plover]

Oh yea probably due to terrible balancing but in general I think carno should just be an ambush predator but people don’t play it as one because it’s the only mid tier so people play it as a cera/allo

[azure crescent]

not with how its designed currently

[hollow canyon]

it has pretty much nothing going for itself in terms of ambushing aside from the CC

[azure crescent]

that is fair

[hasty coyote]

and now that got nerfed, so it isnt even a guaranteed kill.

[azure crescent]

imagine if stego’s special ability was to make it slower and stronger lmao

[hasty coyote]

anky in a nutshell

[hollow canyon]

I mean - it's meant to hunt out in the open, it's meant to be good when there's no obstacles that would get in its way but it needs those to actually pull off its main ability, its main ability is loud, takes a lot of distance, its crouch is awful, its tall, very visible, very loud

[azure crescent]

anky does it best

[hollow canyon]

it's just really, really bad for ambushing stuff, you can do it but it's not what this animal should do

charge is just really ill-suited for this animal

[alpine plover]

I mean a pesky vid from update 3 he did do successful ambushes

[hollow canyon]

oh I'm not saying it's not possible to do that

it very much is possible

I did it a tonne when I played Carno

[hasty coyote]

A: thats 2 updates ago: there have been massive changes
B: we are saying that its bad at ambushing, not that ambushing is impossible

[hollow canyon]

but that's more down to people being really not paying attention

[alpine plover]

True

[hollow canyon]

just a reminder that this community cried about AI Carno killing them so much that it had to be removed from the game

because people are just that unaware of what's around them

[ocean sentinel]

To be fair ambushing being possible isn't enough for something designed to be an ambush predator. It should be the optimal strategy.

[hasty coyote]

From what i heard, it had infinite stamina, so the one weakness it had was gone.

[hollow canyon]

it was broken if you aggroed it

I never died to it because I never aggroed it

it was loud, tall, visible from a mile

you just shouldn't be aggroing that but people weren't noticing it in time

[alpine plover]

Yea the devs didn’t need to remove it but just nerf it

[hollow canyon]

nah, it should've been removed

I'm just saying that people were really angry with it

to the point that it got removed very quickly

because people were dying to it - a lot

[hasty coyote]

I also heard people crying because they would swim in its general vicinity as a baby deino, then just be camped by a swimming carno above it until they died

[hollow canyon]

I've heard the same thing about wild Pumbas

[ocean sentinel]

Just outswim it

[hollow canyon]

AI's swimming is buggy like hell

Pumba can swim you down and murder you if you're a small Deino

[ocean sentinel]

Pumba? thought we were talking about AI Carnos.

[hollow canyon]

all the AI kind of works the same

AI Utahs were absurd in the water too

[hasty coyote]

i havent head much about the pumba attacking in water, or chasing while swimming

[hollow canyon]

I've actually experienced it once

I was just sitting in the water and then suddenly realised something was above me

[hasty coyote]

the ai carnos swim like all ai: ZOOOOOOOOOOOM

[hollow canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-pig-lion-king-gif-25423134

that thing was right above me trying to gore the river to death ^

it wanted to kill the water

and well... me with it

[alpine plover]

AI Dino’s could work I actually like the idea of it because it would make the server feel more alive, but it’s all up to the devs to balance it properly

[ocean sentinel]

Last time I saw AI in the water it would just sit there, but I'm not sure how long this stuff happened.

[hasty coyote]

I spat in one's face as a hypsi and it chased me for like 5 mins straight

[hasty coyote]

this was between update 3 and 4, so when ai in water was buggy

[ocean sentinel]

They really just need to have the AI restricted to the same rules the players are and react accordingly. Have their stats much up to the player dinos, give them their own stamina bars and make them try to conserve it, ect.

[alpine plover]

Didn’t ai like teno just tp to the other side of the water or just zoom across the water at light speed

[hasty coyote]

I'd assume light speed since every ai did that at the time

[hollow canyon]

idk about that but AI teno was free food

[alpine plover]

The light speed stuff was an exaggeration but I’m pretty sure it just zoomed across the water

[ocean sentinel]

Some of you might disagree with me here, but I'd take complex, functional AI dinos over humans any day.

[alpine plover]

I agree

[hollow canyon]

I'd take nothing over humans too

[alpine plover]

Humans should just be a separate game because I just don’t see it working in a online setting where the players are also Dino’s

[hasty coyote]

I personally want humans, but thats because a lot of my friends are mainly interested in this game because of humans.

[ocean sentinel]

Yeah the Isle giant planned roster is already going to be a pain to balance in a way where everything is viable and fun to play, last thing they need to do is slap another game into the Isle.

Pretty sure most times a studio tries that, they just go bankrupt.

[alpine plover]

After the devs Finnish all of the isle Dino stuff I can see them making a different game with humans using the same assets from the isle

Kind of like a spin-off

[ocean sentinel]

Or they scratch the idea before it gets out of hand.

[alpine plover]

Yea

[mental roost]

So paying extra for humans???

If you're gonna do that, may as well just make them a setting option for servers, because making another game that's just the Isle with humans that's around $19.99-$29.99(USD before sales tax) sounds like a real dick move.. albeit not quite EA levels.

[hasty coyote]

make the humans weak then, to fight things they would have to be in close range if they even could. Ammo is sparse, so wasting a clip to shoot a ptera may be the only ammo you have for a while. And they're LOUD, you can hear guns from far away and any person will good enough equipment to fight a dino should be loudly trudging.

[tall bronze]

That's essentially the idea for them

[alpine plover]

I mean tribals from what I herd is baisicly gonna be like ark

[tall bronze]

Like yeah you can shoot a Ptera and probably miss

Good job wasting ammo and ringing the dinner bell

[ocean sentinel]

The Isle is essentially trying to be three games in one, which something not even AAA companies can pull off.

Or at least none of them have yet. If possible, it's not easy, and would be a risky gamble.

[hasty coyote]

exactly what I got it from lol. The main thing is that humans shouldn't be able to find a pistol in 3 mins and kill a dino who spent hours growing, unless that dino is dumb

[tall bronze]

Someone's gotta try it at some point 😛 Seems it's The Isle

[tall bronze]

Yeah, so far it sounds like shooting stuff is more so "hit the right spot with the right gun with the right ammo" rather than "gun go pew pew make hurt"

[mental roost]

Imagine finding a pistol.. but no ammo. "What the fuck am I supposed to do with this?!"(-you can insert a Cave Johnson voice if you wish)

[alpine plover]

Humans is a good idea but it just won’t work especially in a online setting you got to understand that everything is being played by a human and humans learn so it won’t take long for people to find op things in the map with spawn rates

[ocean sentinel]

Sure they can try it, but I don't think it will end well.

[hasty coyote]

heres the thing. If it doesnt work out, they said they will allow people to toggle humans off. If you don't like them, then you don't have to deal with them.

Plus, they only really need to balance them out against the small tier, maybe some mid-tiers if they give humans enough weapons. everything else should just slaughter humans

[dusky surge]

i would take humans any day over AI dinosaurs

[tall bronze]

AI always ends up being predictable.

Plus is costly on the server since it has to run all of em and have em "think"

[mental roost]

The dinosaurs are also being played by humans...So it's mostly just a free for all in that context, and the dinosaurs have naturally attached weapons, where as the humans are...well hairless apes that spawn with no real weapons minus their hands and feet.

[hasty coyote]

I can't wait to find a radio, talk to some guy for like 20 mins, then hear them get attacked lol.

[dusky surge]

i still think the game all about a large player-ran multiplayer experience works best when the playables are just playables

[alpine plover]

If AAA companies can’t do it how will an indie dev team that can barely balance dinosaurs do it?

https://youtu.be/o-I_IdRwPWU this vid baisicly goes over everything and honestly is great

[tall bronze]

[ocean sentinel]

Understandable, sure maybe that's a bad idea. But unless you can explain to me how trying to basically develope two more game at once that all have to fit into each other in a way that benefits all three when it seems the Isle is already in development hell as is is practical, I'm not convinced.

[dusky surge]

i heavily disagree with this video frankly

[mental roost]

I'm genuinely curious as to what making Ai "fuzzy" means.. Mandaloregaming mentions that is how the Forest's dev team described theirs.

[tall bronze]

Give em f u r

[hasty coyote]

I watched it, and I disagree.
He basically points out that World of tanks had to split up, yet we have games like battlefield which do have tanks, planes, and ships

also, he just says: it will be difficult, so its impossible.

[tall bronze]

Wasn't Evolve technically 2 games?

[mental roost]

Star Wars Battlefront 2(the original) having ground troops, ground vehicles, and flying vehicles all going on at once

[hasty coyote]

kinda

but its a bad example, it kinda died

[mental roost]

I mean.. it's an Asymmetrical game, so... kind of?? I'd say more like 2 pieces of a whole though.

[mental roost]

2K

[tall bronze]

Yeah I heard it was very good but died. I just know you played as humans and monsters

[mental roost]

Oh yeah, Stage 2's servers are back up by the way if anyone's curious

[ocean sentinel]

Not really, while both sides played differently, this was the focus of the game from the beginning, and it never tried to expand past this from my knowledge.

[tall bronze]

Humans have always been planned for Isle though 😮

[hasty coyote]

honestly though, there are definitely ways to balance humans v dinos. We will just have to see what the devs do, and then help give feedback to their main issues.

[tall bronze]

👍

[hasty coyote]

humans were the origional plan, dinos were the background

[ocean sentinel]

The games that do that all reuse a lot of the same mechanics for each of those vehicles. Just look at War thunder for example. They all use similar damage models, fire systems, munitions explode in all them, ect.

There are some differences yes, but not too many.

[alpine plover]

It’s not impossible but it is very difficult for a AAA dev team to do it. how do you think these devs can do barely pulling out 2 updates a year

[mental roost]

There's some cool things you could try out with humans. I'd personally want to avoid putting powerful stuff out in the open and have rare spawns.. I'd rather it be more like a mission or quest, where you have to go out of your way across the map to find things to help you in your journey.. all without dying.

If you give strong items rare spawns that can appear wherever, it's letting lady luck decide your fate, as opposed to an actual reward..

[ocean sentinel]

Planned and, the entire game being built from the start to encorporate them are entirely different things.

[tall bronze]

I mean they've been adding human bases for a reason 😛 Humans are gonna use em (and they will actually function as well)

[ocean sentinel]

Those are literally just props.

[dusky surge]

frankly, i hope humans v dinos are never balanced and ALWAYS in the favour of dinos

[tall bronze]

That can be given functionality. Like the doors. Right now they're just static props, but they've already show clips of them moving.

Also pretty sure one of the devs (possibly Vis) mentioned it's all set up to be used when ready, just right now it's all static.

[alpine plover]

All I’m gonna say is that I can see this work in a pve environment but not a pvp environment

[tall bronze]

Compy pack vs lone human with no gear >:)

[dusky surge]

i say this concept shines in a PvP environment and would be forgettable and generic in a PvE

[tall bronze]

I'd say my only true concern about the factions in this game are player slots.

[ocean sentinel]

Problem with that is it could make the humans unfun to play depending on the nature of the unbalance. Calculated unbalances can benefit a game, though you can't just give one side a bunch of advantages and call it a day.

[hasty coyote]

by "balanced" I mean a humans could kill small tiers with the right equipment if the dino doesn't play well. However, everything bigger would take WAY too much work. Like you would need to spend 5 hours gathering equipment to kill a carno

[tall bronze]

I imagine humans being 90% hide and pray and 10% actually attacking stuff.

[dusky surge]

part of the fun of humans should come from the desperation, helplessness and fear of being hunted and never truly being safe

[tall bronze]

^

[hasty coyote]

and then you have to hope the carno is brain dead enough not to run or insta kill you

[mental roost]

Admittedly, part of me isn't a huge fan of the idea of Humans getting oneshot by a damn nibble, but...I mean...I guess you were out in the open, so you let yourself get preyed on by the carnotaurus.

[tall bronze]

Like mages dialed to 11x. Have access to cool abilities (tech in this case) but extremely frail on their own.

[dusky surge]

not even, an attack should be risky and avoided whenever possible due to the massive noise and smell of your weapons

[alpine plover]

You can probably find decent gear as a human anytime you want because your relying on chance while you have a wait hours to fully experience the Dino you want to play

[tall bronze]

Well yeah 😛

[hasty coyote]

exactly

[dusky surge]

also keep snipers out this damn game

[mental roost]

10 vitality, 65 arcane(or whatever fucking magic stat there is)

[tall bronze]

I'm okay with scopes but yeah no SNIPER snipers. Like that one from Halo Reach

You know the one I mean

[mental roost]

Sniper no sniping

[tall bronze]

[ocean sentinel]

Yes, but it has too be pulled off in a way where you actually have options to survive, against every dino in the roster.

[hasty coyote]

potentially, or they can put time into it too. similarly to how Rust has timed crates and supply crates, you may need to spend a lot of time finding those, defending them, and then making sure you can actually keep the loot.

[ocean sentinel]

They need to feel helpless, but not actually be incapable of surviving.

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm

I picture being outside of a base being like.....how do I describe it....

Like in games that have "zones" and there's like a "red zone" of sorts where you go in it and the game warns you about it because it's so super dangerous and you gotta be SUPER careful while in it?

Like that, accept anywhere that's not a base is that zone. 😛

[dusky surge]

at the start, you shouldn't have all the options besides "hide or die". Once you start getting weapons, tools and vehicles, sure

[hasty coyote]

yeah, you should still be able to kill small, nimble things, hide in buildings from bigger dinos, and run from the things you can't hide or kill.

[ocean sentinel]

My concern about weapons is that overtime in an effort to keep human gameplay from getting stale their going to start adding weapons that might end up giving the humans an unfair advantage.

[tall bronze]

Like I want going into the wilderness to feel like an adventure. A terrifying adventure where you have almost no adaptations.

Meanwhile dinos are perfectly at home.

[hasty coyote]

I doubt they would do that, people would outrage.

[dusky surge]

anyone whos playing human for the power fantasy is playing the wrong character

[hasty coyote]

new weapons, sure.
op weapons, now you got half the player base fuming

[tall bronze]

I think weapons in general will be fairly limited. Plus you gotta go get them as well as get the correct ammo and possibly even maintain them.

Plus we have no real clue how exactly you GET them 😛

Wonder if those OOOOOOLD air drops will come back

[mental roost]

I pray they don't ever consider having the dinosaurs spawn in through air drops again.. Let that idea burn and die.

[hasty coyote]

pay real money to open loot crates

[tall bronze]

[mental roost]

If the Isle was made by EA/ or Activision Blizzard

[tall bronze]

Oh I mean like loot airdrops, I forgot about that old idea 😛

[half girder]

#balance-feedback message not really

carno is pretty damn good

[ocean sentinel]

They probably wouldn't do it intentionally, mistakes are inevitable, and with so many different parts to the game they'd be harder to avoid, as it could just become so complex and exhausting to deal with that few people would know how the whole system that the Isle becomes works, let alone how to effectively tinker it's part to optimize the experience.

[mental roost]

I know, but that just reminded me of that old idea a little
I'm cool with some items dropping in as loot though every once in awhile but if someone's dropping things on the island, with viable loot and stuff... It feels weird to me, with what I've heard about the humans.

[ocean sentinel]

Keep in mind not only do the mercs need a fine tuned relationship with the dino roster, but also the tribals.

[hasty coyote]

yeah, a gun will become op inevitably. however, it will likely come to the dev's attention rather quickly.

Plus, if they really wanted to in the far far future, they could make dlc or certain maps where its humans v apexes (with shorter growth timers), then they may give humans strong enough weaponry to deal with them.

[tall bronze]

I'm curious how gun fire will actually work. I pray for no hitscan.....

[hasty coyote]

rather than giving humans a railgun to deal with apexes that obliterates smalls, they could put in a different mode where a rail gun is balanced.

[mental roost]

"Want to see me turn this Utahraptor into a fine red mist? Want to see me do it again?"

[tall bronze]

I think stuff like that would be naturally limited by stuff like rarity, ammo, gun maintenance, and weight especially.

[hasty coyote]

no crosshair and decent spread too, you don't want people just putting a crosshair with a 3rd party app

[mental roost]

I hope for a combustible lemon grenade I can use to set dinosaurs on fire.

[tall bronze]

No crosshair can be super fun and immersive. Actually use the sights for once

[mental roost]

||This is a joke.||

[alpine plover]

so chickens can just run in the ocean.......

[tall bronze]

Just don't use moon rocks

[mental roost]

You can't stop me. I will use moon rocks.

[tall bronze]

[hasty coyote]

havent heard that one before lol, but im not surprised

[tall bronze]

Yeah chicken swimming is still dialed to 11

[alpine plover]

chickens on the beach tho..like wut

man just walks straight on the ocean like jesus

i tried to screenshot it but it was just too fast.

[ocean sentinel]

I'm going to be honest, the Isle doesn't have a good track record for rapidly fixing balance issues. Also there might be scenarios a bit more complicated then that. They may for example, nerf a specific dinosaur because it was too oppressive against other dinos it wasn't meant to be, but in doing so accidentally indirectly buff a human weapon that it helped keep in check.

[azure crescent]

@tiny salmon ptera's growth time makes sense because it has the huge advantage of being able to fly

[half girder]

you can just fly away, unless you have the bug

utah exp is pretty cancer rn, might as well put utah on utah diet

i cant go one day without utah on utah violence

[fallen vale]

that was the whole point... It's 12 hours of data aggregated updated every 10 minutes. The point was deinos and utahs are massively overplayed most of the time. There are days worse than others. When I play carno and wipe off the utahs it's usually more balanced for a day at least afterward

[hollow canyon]

oof

Also - apparently Utah DOES drain stamina from the target that's getting pounced after all

[tall bronze]

Wait.....wait hold on

Are you saying simply being on a creature as Utah drains the creature's stamina?

Bucking or no bucking?

[azure crescent]

i try my hardest to clear utahs as a teno whenever i can, yesterday i killed like 3 adults and 4 juvies

[tall bronze]

• Holding on to something drains it's stamina
• Bucking, which "helps" get the Utah off, also drains stamina
• The massive bleed the creature receives worsens stamina

So Utah pounce is basically a big middle finger to stamina

Seems a bit much 😛

[strange rivet]

depends on the prey. Teno for example have massive stamina, they can handle drain and bucking, + even fighting or fleeing at the same time

so maybe it is a matter of adjusting stamina instead of the drain

Carno for exemple as a plain strider should have more stam i think

[hollow canyon]

yes

[tall bronze]

[hollow canyon]

I had a lengthy discussion with multiple people about it with some(Smeasel I believe?) posting videos that were proving me wrong

but at the same time I was seeing other videos were the stamina was indeed going down

it seems that it's dependent on whether the prey is moving or not

[tall bronze]

Odd 😮

[hollow canyon]

will test it further some time later

atm am busy watching Arlington Major but after that is done I might test it properly

[alpine plover]

i just saw a croco swimming on the ground?

[hardy matrix]

carno is straight up unplayable right now fastest food burn in game their stam is garbage cant turn at all and bleed out from just a few pounces like how are you even suppose to nest as carno your dying of starvation constantly

[dusky surge]

@west sierra carno isnt iconic for its high stam lmao, its iconic for its speed

[keen plover]

Yeah mainly speed. I do hope we see a stamina buff one day for it though

No more Aken takes here

[west sierra]

I said speed and Stam lol, I know it’s iconic for speed. but the main point is that the stam rn in my opinion drains a bit too fast, and it’s really tricky when engaging in a fight unless your really experienced.

[hasty coyote]

My only issue with buffing carno stam is pachy. Body fractures already feels bad, more stam just makes the body fracture basically useless.

[dusky surge]

true

[west sierra]

That’s fair

[keen plover]

Imo, body fractures need to have more risk than 2x stam cost

[west sierra]

Yeah lol. Would be nice if you should LITREALLY like shatter the leg and they just- can’t move (but you would have to hit it a lot)

[keen plover]

Nah, then it's like legacy. Right now is fine.

Reduced speed is enough of a debuff

[hasty coyote]

That will likely be a part of the fracture severity system (which we still don’t have). But I doubt it would completely stop you.

[keen plover]

I think what we have right now should be the most severe

like half your speed is enough

[west sierra]

Yeah you could probably drag urself away (and I was also sort of joking LOL)

But if they could maybe yeah lower speed (by a bit, again it stills outruns Utah) and up the stam, I think it would aid the hit and run tactic for less experienced people and also. Help with escaping tenos that like to chase me halfway across the map.

[dusky surge]

it should outrun utah

its entire thing is being big sprinter

[hasty coyote]

For leg fracture, sure. But I think body fracture should be able to get more severe, maybe skull fracture too (like your camera gets forced to sway)

[keen plover]

Fair

[west sierra]

That’s what I’m saying lol I never said “doesn’t outrun utah” I’m agreeing with you

[hasty coyote]

The most I would do to carno atm would be to revert the bleed nerf somewhat or completely and maybe buff stam regen.

[dusky surge]

i personally dislike the idea of reducing carno's speed

[keen plover]

I do wonder how effective utahs future buff will be? (the climb ability) Would also depend on how the map is designed tbf

Also, with a much larger map - do you think that balance would be different?

[hasty coyote]

They aren’t getting the full climbing, more like a scramble up a ledge.

[keen plover]

I know

A short climb technically

Either way, would make it really easy for a utah to vault an object

Which is fine, but that depends on the map

[hasty coyote]

The most it will do is help it climb ontop of building (fun for humans), rocks (good escape tool), and maybe a low tree.

So if we get more cool rock formations, it could help utah a lot.

[keen plover]

Would be nice

[half girder]

lots of people saying carno life is hard when its really not, just stand next to a tree

carno is still insane against teno, i have no issues with wiping out a herd of them even as one carno, utah does need some things changed but more so from a logical stand point then any nerfs to its ability

[keen plover]

I don't know about insane. Teno washes it.

[carmine patrol]

why are so many people against decreasing ptera's growth time?

[frail bobcat]

because its fine . . .

[carmine patrol]

not really, I think 50mins for something that weighs 45Kg is too much

it should be at 35-45 mins

[dusky surge]

weight isn't the only thing that factors into growth

[keen plover]

I don't mind either way. They're immortal when they start, they're immortal when they're full grown. The grow is already short as well so eh

[dusky surge]

yea

still literally the best animal in the game

until herrera or quetz are in, they'll have zero natural predators

[carmine patrol]

this way they're gonna make quetz have the same growth time as teno :/

or even carno

[dusky surge]

you say that like a bad thing

that sounds REALLY short for a quetz

[carmine patrol]

so it should grow in 4 hours?

[azure crescent]

it is a pseudo apex so in like 2-3 hours

@west sierra how does a teno outrun you as a carno

[carmine patrol]

outstam

because they missed a charge

[azure crescent]

if you die you die i guess

its part of the game

[carmine patrol]

very well then

troodon should be the one with a 35mins growth time ig

[hasty coyote]

That’s less than dryo, so probably not, dryo has 37 with perfect diet iirc. More like 40-60 mins for troo

[carmine patrol]

dryo is 3 times bigger than troo

it's probably faster too

[hasty coyote]

Troo is maybe half, but still has venom and is made to punch up. Meanwhile dryo is a prey species with no combat abilities.

[carmine patrol]

I'm pretty sure dryo can deal with 3 troodons at a time

[carmine patrol]

ptera takes 50 mins with a perfect diet, they both weigh the same but ptera can fly, so troo is probably less than 50 mins

[hasty coyote]

I think you severely undestimate troo

[carmine patrol]

I mean, if dryo is faster and 2-3 shots troo it'll be hard for it to do much

[primal harbor]

@digital oak realisticly pachy wouldn't even bone break with a headbutt

Hell it would barley do damage

[raw reef]

realisticly this group of dinosaurs wouldnt be on an island where they need to compete with eachother

lmao realism doesnt do for good gameplay

[hasty coyote]

How about we don’t just give abilities because it’s realistic, balance is the spot where a lot of realism just gets thrown out the window.

Pachy doesn’t need bleed because it already has fractures and bleed is mostly used to help kill things, which would make pachy too good at killing things it shouldn’t.

[half girder]

not in my exp lol usually wipe them out

pretend to be low on stam to get them to run and waste thiers, pretty easy

unless ofc i get hit from 5 feet away cuz lag

[slender kettle]

All I want for Carno is the food drain and bleed resistance back to U4. The stamina I can live with. It’s fast enough to catch anything and run away when things get dicey.

[primal harbor]

this

[azure crescent]

the hunger drain wasn’t changed since 4.5, it just feels worse now because lack of AI

i have no issues with stam to be honest

if you play right you won’t really care about stam

unless you for some reason choose to flee from utahs

[slender kettle]

It was shown in the patch that the hunger drain got messed with@azure crescent

[azure crescent]

oh was it? My bad

[wise obsidian]

@west sierra Quite literally your fault for not managing your stamina. Its hard to run down a carno of all things as teno

[opal thorn]

ptera able to snatch babies while in the air. having to land to feed on anything but fish feels wrong. so far pteras are the only dino that i can find myself really struggling to feed at times

[idle delta]

@west sierra I would agree that carno has quick stam depletion, and can be outrun by dinos such as utah and teno due to their slower stam depletion, but carno wasnt meant to outstam these dinos, it was meant to be faster than them over a small period of time so that it could kill then. Due to its hp and dmg, carno simply catches up and then fights these dinos. Utah and teno cant outstam a carno if the carno is biting its butt(or in the case of teno, its side). So this means they have to stop running and you can fight them. Carno can take on 2-3 utahs at a minimum even with its nerfed bleed, and can take on 1-2 tenos if baiting right. You shouldnt be running, you should be using small amounts of stam to circle your prey and diving in for bites or baits.

[neon willow]

@vapid fable For full disclosure, I rarely play carno. But I am under the impression it's meant moreso to be a mid-tier ambush predator-- not ambushing small things, but rather ambushing medium things. A juvi raptor will provide next to no food for a carno. An adult raptor or teno of pachy goes a good ways, though. It can't have a huge amount of stam because with it's speed, it would run everything else currently released into the ground. Raptors already have to use their better turn to dodge carnos because carnos do so much damage. Maybe when the other mid tiers get released carno will require a rework, but right now I think it's fine

[vapid fable]

people keep saying carno is a "small game hunter", and they say that's quoting the devs
against bigger things tho carno still stands no chance, against utah it bleeds out too fast, can't get away because of limited stam, and can't catch them 1v1, that is if the utah and carno are both competent
but frankly i agree they shouldn't rework any stats until more things are put in the game, can't really balance a game that only has 2 land carnivores but is expecting 20

[neon willow]

You've got a point. I think stego is hideously OP right now, and I think it's gotta be because the apexes that would hunt adult stegos aren't in game yet XD

Even 2 stegos can slaughter a solid 5+ adult deinos without too much trouble

[azure hinge]

You shouldn't talk ill of the stegos in this discord you might offend someone

[dusky surge]

i feel like people are more offended by the existence of stegos than the slander of stegos

[neon willow]

Lol I think they will survive, especially since the relative insult to deinos was worse ;)

Don't get me wrong-- I like deinos and stegos, and I don't think herbis is should be pushovers for carnis. But when the only in-game carnivore that could remotely be called an apex predator is literally no match for it in any way-- slower speed, less stam, less damage, lower health... The dino may be OP lol. To be honest I can't tell if deinos just has less health, or if stegos really actually do that much more damage with their tails.

[dusky surge]

stegos just do a TON of damage

also, deino being an apex carnivore has little bearing on its performance against stego since it is not at all designed well for fighting large animals. It's designed to attack animals at most half its size and weight, not fighting other apexes. Deino has enough tools to easily avoid stegos, stegos are in no way OP since they are ENTIRELY avoidable

the only time i died to a stego as a deino, i had only myself to blame for being an idiot

also deino does have more health than a stego by a significant margin

[neon willow]

But it's silly that 1-2 stegos can cow literally everything into running away. The other day 2 stegos had my friend on a deino literally backed into the one corner of this tiny pond that was just deep enough that they couldn't use their tail swipe. We were pinned there for over 30 minutes because they wouldn't let us leave, despite not needing to eat us and despite us being no threat towards them (we didn't even show interest in trying to eat them)

[dusky surge]

what tiny pond? this game has tiny ponds that are accessible to deinos?

[tall bronze]

Maybe if Deino was D.rugosus size like originally intended, people wouldn't keep expecting it to be able to fight stuff like Stegos reliably

[dusky surge]

wasnt it also "originally intended" to literally NEVER stop growing

[tall bronze]

[neon willow]

Well, depends on your definition of tiny lol. One of the channels surrounding the swamp island. It's technically a bigger pond, but the water is shallow enough that you have to walk across and one stego stood there blocking my friend's access to the pond and preventing me from helping while the other backed his tail up as far as possible and trying to kill my friend in this itty bitty patch of water

[tall bronze]

Infinite-Growth Deino not only sounds ridiculous gameplay wise (you know with how players can exploit/discover things, someone would find a way to get absurdly large) and just kinda silly.....but imagine balancing it.....

o_o

[dusky surge]

there was literally a pic of it being big enough to take down spinos

[tall bronze]

[dusky surge]

honestly, cooler idea than just being shrunk lmao imho

[neon willow]

I agree that deino isn't designed to fight other apexes... But there really isn't anything else that can, right now. A large pack of raptors or carnos can take a single adult stego (with some losses), but a herd of stegos is pretty much impossible

[dusky surge]

deino being as big as it is means it has more options for food when the roster expands

[tall bronze]

I can see that 😛 Personally, I immensely dislike "LET'S MAKE THIS THING SCARIER BY EXAGGERATING FEATURES!" (usually teeth or size). It just ruins any fear factor for me

[dusky surge]

tbf, endless growth deino is pretty realistic given what we know about them, since I don't believe there's a single recorded case of a gator dying of old age

they just keep growing

[tall bronze]

Like seeing a movie monster with so much teeth, it can't close it's mouth just.....eugh.

If we stick with big Deino, I still want the bite to feel big.

[dusky surge]

they'll die of a bunch of other causes but its never directly linked to age

[tall bronze]

Yeah I remember seeing something about them dying of starvation due to teeth falling out, but never directly age

[neon willow]

I think the main factor preventing endless growth deino is that the map is designed to accommodate critters of a certain size range and rex sizes deinos would probably get caught on all kinds of nonsense XD

[dusky surge]

i reckon we should get a charge bite mechanic SPECIFICALLY for deino. Makes perfect sense for deino, seeing as gators will often open their mouths wide as a threaten display

[tall bronze]

THAT

Y-YES. THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR.

[dusky surge]

and their strength comes from closing power, not opening, so a "charged" bite would be better for them than a quick chomp

[dusky surge]

also it means alt-bite isn't fucking insane

since it'd still be a quick chomp designed to get smalls off your ass

[tall bronze]

Makes it feel like an actual 8 ton alligator without it becoming water-Rex

[neon willow]

Isn't the spino supposed to be water-rex? :P

[dusky surge]

i still reckon if we're buffing deino, make it DEFENSIVELY buffed. Deino should be EXCEPTIONALLY territorial and dangerous to get between it, its food and its habitat

deino should still get clapped when trying to run down a stego or a trike or whatever apex you can think of

[neon willow]

Agreed, although... My main point was nerfing stegos, not buffing deinos XD Deinos are plenty strong already

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont like the idea of nerfing stegos to be easier for deinos to kill

and i fucking HATE playing stego

i just dont want repeats of U3's land deino nightmare

[neon willow]

Not for deinos specifically. Again, it ain't about the crocs. I don't know anything that looks at more than 1 stego together and thinks "that's dinner". Because the risk of dying is way too high

Maybe with things like rexes and other terrestrial apexes that issue will fix itself

Even large groups of starving carnos pretty regularly pass on stego buffets because it isn't worth the risk

[dusky surge]

carnos passing on stegos makes perfect sense

carnos are horribly designed for stego hunting

[neon willow]

Agreed. But then... Nothing is really particularly well designed for stego hunting XD