balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

Carno is not designed around being an ambush hunter, it's really as simple as that

its charge relies it to be quite far away from its target to even get triggered

[analog mirage]

How tf is Utah a ambush predator

[round loom]

utah is a packhunter lol

[hollow canyon]

its pounce literally instagibs everything smaller than it

[hollow canyon]

still a better ambush hunter than Carno

[analog mirage]

Doesn’t make it a ambusher

[hollow canyon]

Carno meanwhile only gets to knock down a target with an ability that can't even be used at point blank

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't but it makes it a better ambush hunter than Carno

[analog mirage]

How do you fight Utahs, do you hide and wait for them to come by or not pay attention or do you run straight in to ram

[sick lion]

the charge from the carno is there to start the attack unseen, called ambush.

[golden coral]

Okay, let's see if we can make this easy. Proper ambushing means you're lying in wait, ready to jump out at something. That's what actual ambush is. As such, a mechanic that is helpful and good at this, makes you designed for ambush. Carno mechanic, requires you to leave your hiding spot (unless you're charging through a forest), and be rather loud and visible before you land the attack. Utah meanwhile, can pounce from point blank, right from the hiding spot, without having to give its presence away until it's right on the target. This would be why utahs pounce is a better designed mechanic for an ambush, unlike carnos charge. Deino lunge is like the pounce, you can be as close as possible, unseen, and just jump out at the target.

[hollow canyon]

you can use the charge when the opponent sees you too

being unseen isn't at all the only way to use it

[sick lion]

jea when you are bad xD

[golden coral]

Can you surprise attack things as carno, sure. You can do that as any critter. But carno is the only one out of deino, utah, and even pachy, that has to do something that puts it at risk of giving itself away. All the others, can use their abilites point blank, while if in a bush, remaining hidden.

[hollow canyon]

try going against a pack of Carnos that know what they're doing, surround you and threaten to charge you from every direction and then repeat that

[sick lion]

the charge is designed for it. i dont get how you can denie that logical conclusion xD

[hollow canyon]

Charge is best in pack fights

[golden coral]

Because you're factually wrong, if you read my explanation.

[hollow canyon]

where you have multiple Carnos and they make it hard for you to follow and dodge them all

especially when they're on voicechat

if you get ambushed by Carno charge - git good is my advice

[analog mirage]

I do think Carno should be changed from less of a ambush hunter to a Pursuit hunter

[golden coral]

The more you have to give yourself away, the less good the mechanic is for a proper ambush. The better you can remain hidden and still attack, the better your mechanic is designed for ambushing.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is a loud, tall animal with a very slow crouch, it's trash at ambushing anyone that has at least one working brainlobe

admittedly most people in the game don't posses even that so well

[sick lion]

so the carno is not an ambush hunter? that's what you're claiming here?
if you ambushed on the openfield then you depend on the stupidity of the target. But that doesn't change the fact that it was basically designed for this purpose.

[hollow canyon]

I've "ambushed" Utahs by charging straight at them from the front

[golden coral]

That it should, but that's more of a redesign. But the charge is.. kind of dumb really. It is a little bit of a "hey, it has horns, lets make it run into things", no? :p

[hollow canyon]

I'm claiming it's not designed to be an ambush hunter

[analog mirage]

I’d rather give it something to do with trample damage rather than a charge

[hollow canyon]

it can be whatever you want to play it as

doesn't mean it will be good at that

[analog mirage]

The whole cheetah niche doesn’t really work on a large animal who is in a open plains area

[hollow canyon]

I'm claiming that wherever you get ambushed by it - if you get hit by the charge in a 1v1 against a Carno that's a skill issue

you made a mistake, there's no reason why any small animal should be getting hit by the charge

Teno? I can kind of understand that

but Utah? Damn that's a bad Utah if it gets hit with that

[golden coral]

Pursuit mode carno would be so much better and more fun, and make a lot more sense at that.

[analog mirage]

Just make it a ambusher against larger things like Teno other psuedo mids/mid tiers

And make it a pursuit hunter against small targets it can easily take down

Since things like Gali and Utah will try to run from it, it’ll be good at chasing them down

A simple version is this

Ambush anything that can fight you in a straight 1v1

Pursuit anything that is much smaller and can’t fight you in a 1v1 like Utah and Dilo

[sick lion]

jea thats exactly what ive said. read and understand what ive write!

im out here now, its way to irrational here lol

[hollow canyon]

No, there's a big difference between what I just said and what you said - I'm saying that getting ambushed by Carno and hit with the charge when you're a Utah is simply the fault of the Utah player

I am at the same time saying that Carno CAN use its charge very effectively in fights where there's multiple Carnos

that's when the charge is most useful

[sick lion]

jea when the target is stupid

[hollow canyon]

It's very difficult to keep track of multiple Carnos that can charge you from any direction

[sick lion]

and thats what ive said

[round loom]

yes and nobody here is crying about that. nobody here has a problem with carnos. carnos are a snack and nothing more, i have no idea why you are talking about this

[hollow canyon]

in the middle of combat

[sick lion]

thats not relevant for the topic

[hollow canyon]

Yes, they are bad, I'm glad we've established that

[round loom]

not the carno is bad, the players are bad

[hollow canyon]

No, the Carno is bad, it takes way more effort than Utah while providing nothing of substance to back those requirements with

[round loom]

l2p

[hollow canyon]

I think it's you that has to l2p

Utah's just the better animal

It does better vs Tenonto, Stego, Carno and Utah

I can't think of a single scenario where I'd rather be a Carno than a Utah atm

[sick lion]

it was a good discusion here, it goes insane after you come here with youre emotional, irrational nonsense.

[golden coral]

Utah is pretty much back to being more or less OP, to little surprise really.

[round loom]

lol what is this? irrational bullshyt, get adult

[hollow canyon]

I already have an adult Carno and a few adult Utahs, why would I grow another?

[golden coral]

The statement was simply that carno is not designed well for an ambusher, and it's not.

[hollow canyon]

It's not that it's not designed for an ambusher, the statement is that Carno is bad now when compared to utah

Utah does better vs almost every animal in the game

[sick lion]

if it is designed well or not is a completly other question. but carno is a ambush hunter.

[hollow canyon]

I'd be more scared of 2 Utahs than of a Carno as a Tenonto, I'd be more scared of 2 Utahs than of a Carno as a Stego, I'd be more scared of 2 Utahs than of a Carno as a Carno

[analog mirage]

Yes it is a ambush hunter, is it designed well to ambush no

[golden coral]

It's not. Because it's not designed well for it. This is not difficult to understand. Just because you can play it that way, does not mean it is.

If it not designed well to ambush, then you can't call it an ambusher..

[sick lion]

its designed for it, but its not well designed.

[hollow canyon]

I mean you can call it an ambush hunter if you want, you can ambush with every animal in the game, realistically only Deino is designed solely as an ambush hunter

[golden coral]

But it's not designed for it, there's very little, if anything, that aids it in ambushing.

[hollow canyon]

Do you want me to send you a video of Tenontos ambush hunting Carnos?

Will you then say that Tenonto is an ambush hunter?

[golden coral]

You're seriously saying something that is terribly designed for something is still meant to, and is that thing.. that makes.. no sense what so ever.

[sick lion]

the charge is designed for ambush, thats so clearly a fact.

[hollow canyon]

It's not

[sick lion]

is it good designed, no

[round loom]

holy shit

[hollow canyon]

if it was you'd want to get as close to your opponent as possible

[sick lion]

im out here lol

[analog mirage]

I’m just saying it’s supposed to be one, but it’s not balanced well around it

[hollow canyon]

Deino's lunge is designed as a tool for ambushing

you get close to your opponent, you grab them and kill them

Carno has to stand 20 yards away from its opponent to even use its ability

that's some awfully designed "ambush" ability

[sick lion]

jea and the carno charge is the same, you go near as possible and then charge, and bite him to death.

[hollow canyon]

not that it also makes a tonne of noise when you use it

[sick lion]

jea thats why i said it not good designed

[hollow canyon]

Charge doesn't work at point blank

[golden coral]

I don't know if it's supposed to be, I don't think so personally. And if it is supposed to be, then it really needs a rework there. It just makes very little sense to claim that the thing is supposed to be something, while the design is not at all helpful for said something.

[hollow canyon]

It's not that it's not well designed, it's just not an ambushing tool, it can be used that way but it's subpar

[golden coral]

You could say it's supposed to be, but not that it is. If that makes sense to you. If you design something to be helpful, but it's really not, it's a useless thing. You can say it's supposed to be helpful, that was the intention, but you can't say the thing is helpful because it's not. Same thing here. Sure we can say carno is supposed to be an ambusher, but we can't really say it is, because it's not good at it, any more than anything that can just.. jump out from a hidden spot and come at you.

[hollow canyon]

aight, here we go:

"Stalk the plains as the terrifying Carnotaurus, the absolute nightmare of every small critter as this ravenous mouth-on-legs blitzes across the island. Whilst it lacks maneuverability of the nimble Utahraptor, its insane speed and ability to knock others down more than makes up for it. Be sure to look left and right before crossing the street!"

Nothing about this suggests that this animal is supposed to be an ambush hunter. It literally just states that Carno likes to hunt in the plains and that it goes after small game.

Matter of fact hunting in the plains and ambushing stuff sounds like quite a contradictory idea, how are you going to ambush anything in a place that's just a flat land?

[analog mirage]

Carno is too built for different niches. It had the turn radius while standing to brawl, has the stam of a ambusher, but then can’t pursuit if it runs after stuff. And it can’t really do much and turns into a very situational animal

[hollow canyon]

And if you want to bring up those bushes thrown around the centre right now - those are apparently meant to be removed to a large extent, the devs seemingly don't like the plains not being well... plains

[golden coral]

Sounds rather accurate, unfortunately. It does seem a little.. well, not what it should be. Supposed small game hunter, but not very good at hunting said small game that tends to be fast and agile. It wouldn't go amiss with a bit of a rework, or well, at least a more clear role.

[hollow canyon]

And just to add to the point I made before where I couldn't focus on this discussion - Utahraptor IS a better ambush hunter than Carno, it has a much better crouch, moves much faster during it and keeps lower to the ground relative to its size, Utahraptor unlike Carno just instakills every animal smaller than itself with the pounce by just sneaking up on it and pressing rmb in its direction. Swap the sizes of the two and see what works better as an ambush hunter.

[analog mirage]

Small game hunter is a stupid term cause that literally just means anything smaller then yourself

[hollow canyon]

The only reason why it's not so obvious in the current game is because most animals are larger than Utah

[hollow canyon]

yes, that's what a small game hunter is, that's exactly what carno is

It hunts things smaller than itself

Utah can hunt things smaller than itself, things its own size and things larger than itself

it literally does better vs every animal in the game than a Carno does relatively to its growth

again - aside from maybe Pachy

[analog mirage]

So in theory rex is a small game hunter

[sick lion]

for me the charge attack is clearly an ambush attack, whether it is well designed is a completely different question. if you don't see it that way, then you don't see it that way.
it is also very effective to ambush with the carno charge, maybe you should try it. in the "creation" trailer, for example, you can see exactly that.
you have your opinion, we have ours. so all good, have a nice day.

[hollow canyon]

it's not, it can go against things its own size too

[analog mirage]

Yeah I’m just making a joke

[hollow canyon]

I have but that doesn't make it an ambush attack, I've also used it mid-fight successfully on multiple occasions

[analog mirage]

Great the charge is a ambush tool but Carno isn’t built around ambushing

[hollow canyon]

I've ambushed people with a freaking Tenonto

that doesn't make it an ambush hunter

[sick lion]

to ambush with carno charge is the most effecient way to kill a target.

[hollow canyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGHpoQC97IU

oh look, Tenonto is an ambush predator now

[sick lion]

no, he dont have charge

[hollow canyon]

one that is deaf and blind - yea

[hasty coyote]

From the pachy perspective, I’d rather fight a carno than 2 utahs. I can just break and run from a single carno easily. But a single pounce from a utah forces me to kill the utahs because I can’t run. The second pounce then brings me to my knees. Plus, even if I hit one utah, the other can pounce me while I’m preoccupied with bashing the other.

[hollow canyon]

Fair, I don't play Pachy, just my impression

It just seems to me that I'd rather fight 2 Utahs, yea you can't escape from them but you can just stand your ground and try to utilise the alt attack to knock them down and deal some damage to them, of course not very much cause if you make a mistake and get pounced by the other Utah you're just dead

either way - Utah's just all around the better animal currently - easier to grow, much easier to maintain and having a relatively greater potential in PvP

[golden coral]

Correct. It also fails to take a specific critter and it's abilities into account. Or for that matter different growths that may or may not remove or add an ability. Large game hunter, small game hunter, or any such term is really bad for balancing I'd say. And limits the potential for more specific niches.

[hasty coyote]

I have been reading this argument, and y’all are basically both saying “carno is trash at ambushing” but one side is also saying that “carno’s ambushing move is just poorly designed” and the other is saying “the move is bad at ambushing, so it isn’t an ambusher”

[hollow canyon]

I'm saying that it's not particularly better at ambushing than any other animal

if its charge makes it an ambush hunter then Utah and Deino(well the latter one quite obviously) are "ambush hunters" too

every animal gets the upper hand if you pull off its special ability on an unsuspecting opponent

[dusky surge]

deino very much is apparent to be an ambush hunter

[hollow canyon]

yea

[analog mirage]

Hence why making it a pursuit hunter who specializes in chasing down prey and being able to escape things easily is the best option

[hollow canyon]

Deino is clearly designed as an ambush hunter

it wants to get as close to its opponent as possible and oneshot them with its special ability

[hasty coyote]

It’s much easier to just go BONK a 2-5 times on a carno and run off, than to go bonk 10 times on the utahs while bleeding out.

[hollow canyon]

fair enough, I believe you

I mean in that case Carno's just worse against every animal than Utahs if that is correct

[golden coral]

It is. But the thing is, attacking an unaware target is always better and more efficient, for any playable really. I don't think we're ever going to have a playable that wants the target to be aware of it. It's obviously more efficient to ram or pounce an unaware target too. Or even just jab at it as stego. If I can somehow walk up to you and attack you without you realizing, that's a clear advantage.

[hasty coyote]

However, that may also be because I don’t have the most experience fighting utahs, but have been fighting carnos since pachy’s release.

[hollow canyon]

while fighting Utahs from what I've been told your best bet is to stay completely on the defensive

and just alt whack them

[sick lion]

jea, and the charge is good for that because of the stun.

[hollow canyon]

never follow, never go after someone

[golden coral]

Pretty much!

[sick lion]

with charge youre faster, and you stun the target and then you can bite the target death. pounce didnt do that.

after a pounce the target run away

[hollow canyon]

yea no, pounce doesn't let you bite the target to death, it just murders it

[frail bobcat]

I love how carnos need to be smart now

[golden coral]

I'm sure someone would disagree with that to be fair. Personally I like it, to me carno is the.. what's that streamer term I saw, "loud and proud" sort of. It's one of the few animals, barring an apex, that can be in the open and perfectly noticable and be just fine. An animal that does not concern itself with others knowing it's there, because it can either escape them, or run them down.

[hollow canyon]

Have you ever tried pouncing another Utah?

[hasty coyote]

That’s generally what I do. Unless the utahs are garbage and can’t land a pounce.

[hollow canyon]

even if they can't land the pounce their damage output is enough to kill you via biting if you run after one of them

[golden coral]

And bleed out if they do. Though the difference there is just bleed vs damage. Back when utahs had raw damage.. :p

[hollow canyon]

you just can't commit too much

[sick lion]

what you do here is that you take exceptional situations and try to generalize them. it also makes no sense to pounce an utah.

[golden coral]

@sick lionThe carno charge + bite is quicker to kill (assuming proper targets of course), like anything based on damage as opposed to bleed or potentially venom. But that's a bit of a different thing, less related to the hunting style and more related to if you're supposed to kill quickly or attrition things down.

[hasty coyote]

Not if they only pounce lmao. Wiped a pack of 3 utahs that basically did no damage to me.

[hollow canyon]

I don't, that's literally what's going to happen to EVERY animal Utah's size and smaller

You're thinking about the game in terms of "9 animals in the game right now"

[sick lion]

what target you pin?
dryo? utah? what else?

[hollow canyon]

the game isn't being developed with just 9 playables in mind

give me a sec

[hasty coyote]

But yeah, generally utahs are scary. I have had to run into the forest to escape most of them.

[hollow canyon]

all of these:

roughly half of these:

[analog mirage]

Plus Juvies

[hollow canyon]

• juvies

yea

[golden coral]

Only bite you mean, right? If they all only pounced, you should have bled out I think?

[analog mirage]

Only questionable one is Dilo but I think it’s possible

[golden coral]

Depensd on how big our dilo ends up I think. If we're getting proper big one or not.

[hasty coyote]

You’re assuming they hit a pounce. They only hit 2 and immediately fell off.

[hollow canyon]

Dilo is too large, so is Galli(I'd assume if they go with irl numbers for it) Ava is questionable, the rest is food

literally just a oneshot from a Utah

[sick lion]

The point is that a carno's preferred prey are Utah-sized, which means you can stun them with the charge and then bite them to death in the stun with bites.
but an utah's preferred prey is larger prey than himself.

[golden coral]

Well yes. But if they landed, you mean they just.. fell off, properly on their asses? :p

[hollow canyon]

yea which is why it... oneshots everything smaller than itself with the pounce?

not just smaller than itself, everything its own size too

[hasty coyote]

Like out of stam, in like 0.5 seconds or less. Not the normal pounce duration.

[frail bobcat]

The pin is not easy to hit if the target is aware

[hollow canyon]

everything at 450kg goes poof! if Utah pounces it

[frail bobcat]

Those utahs were garbage, you need stam before you pounce wtf

[hollow canyon]

yea same goes for the charge, damn it's almost like those "ambush abilities" aren't that easy to pull off on small targets that are aware of your presence

[frail bobcat]

Crazy

[hollow canyon]

the difference between the two is that the pounce IS also good even extremely good against bigger things

[sick lion]

the game is balanced around 100% adult dinos.
there's no point in talking to you here, really. if you don't want to understand my point, and you obviously don't, then we'll leave it alone.

[analog mirage]

Bruh

[golden coral]

This is true, or at least as far as we know for what the niche and targets are for them. Which is why carnos toolkit is a bit strange, at least to me. The entire.. "setup" is a bit confusing. You're a plains hunter, implying open grounds with very little, if any cover, yet you need to hide because your mechanic is easily avoidable otherwise. On top of that, the mechanic then ruins your hiding and allows the target to move if it's not something too big and slow which in turn can possibly tank the charge. You're meant to hunt smaller things, which are normally agile and fast, but your turn radius and so on is quite bad. Carno is a bit confusing I'd say.

[hollow canyon]

I do understand your point I'm just saying you're wrong... quite obviously I'd think?

[hasty coyote]

They truly were, it was hilarious. I literally ran off mid fight and got stam, came back, and then killed them.

Not to mention we were on the beach, where there are only like 2 hiding spots.

[golden coral]

Ah yeah, well.. yes those were clearly not the most experienced utahs I guess.

[sick lion]

jea you saying im wrong, and thats all, there is no rational thing behind it

[hollow canyon]

I literally outlined why you're wrong

[sick lion]

you dont

[frail bobcat]

True

[hollow canyon]

your only response was "there's no point you don't understand my point"

[sick lion]

you talk from exceptions and ignore the 100% argument and you still think youre right xD

[frail bobcat]

I apologise for these utahs as a utahmain

[hollow canyon]

what exceptions?

[sick lion]

that utah oneshot not full adult dinos

[hollow canyon]

It does though

[sick lion]

that also not prefered food for utah

[hollow canyon]

I literally just posted you a list of all the animals that Utah gets to oneshot

how do you know those aren't going to be on Utah's diet?

[hasty coyote]

It was good target practice at least

[hollow canyon]

I'd think the likes of Galli or Ava would absolutely make sense as a snack for a Utahraptor

[sick lion]

because utahs are packhunters and theyre try to get larger prey because smaller prey didnt feed the pack?

[frail bobcat]

And natural selection

[frail bobcat]

That is not true, a baba stego can feed a small pack

[golden coral]

To be fair, you should be able to play solo, or in pairs, as utahs and be perfectly fine. Sure, you're missing out on all the cool "big game hunts", but survivalwise, you should be fine I think.

[hollow canyon]

Pachy is roughly the size of a Utahraptr and its still on the menu, is it too small to feed a pack or not?

Note that Galli is roughly around that size too

[sick lion]

i play a lot of solo and duo. i dont like to play with randoms

[hollow canyon]

most others are also similar, there just aren't that many animals the size of Utah and smaller in the game RIGHT NOW

[golden coral]

Much as you're right that a bigger pack would need a bigger kill, I would imagine utahs get some smaller targets for those that might prefer to not run in 8-10 or whatever we get in numbers. 3-4 is still a pack, but not a group that should really be able to kill anything over mid, much less an apex.

[sick lion]

you dont pin adult pachy

[hollow canyon]

Yes, because it's SLIGHTLY larger than you

Utah was set to 450 kg instead of 500kg specifically for this reason

[sick lion]

jea but thats youre point, that utah oneshot things

[hasty coyote]

Soon:

[frail bobcat]

True, I have a group. I play with them, much more fun

[hollow canyon]

so that you wouldn't be oneshotting Pachys

[golden coral]

I don't mind randoms, but I personally dislike too big groups, for any playable, since it just gets confusing all around. But this is why utah do need some smaller targets for those that wants to play that way, hence the "preferred food" thing. Sure, the utah could have far more food for bigger groups, but you shouldn't be lacking a way to get nutris in some way, even as solo.

[hollow canyon]

Yes Utah does oneshot things - all things up to its own weight, Pachy was specifically made to be slightly larger because otherwise you would see just why Utah is a better ambush hunter than Carno

if you got to instagib an animal your own size with a single press of a button

which is exactly what the pounce does

[sick lion]

yes i find playing solo or duo is the most fun and as a duo you can still kill everything.
the exceptions if i'm in the pack together i definitely prefer 3-4 utahs, not more. everything else is way too much. but most of the time i actually play solo or in a duo

[sick lion]

again, i talk about 100% adult dinos. because thats how the game is balanced..

[hollow canyon]

Yes but... let me send it again

all these animals are smaller than Utah when fully grown and are planned for the roster:

[sick lion]

why don't you talk about how a carno oneshots a 40% utah with one to the body or to the head?

[hollow canyon]

half of these are also oneshottable:

[sick lion]

lol, im talking about the official game, not about how it can be

these are pure assumptions what you are doing here, and that is your basis for discussion?

[hollow canyon]

Yes, those are ALL in the OFFICIAL roster(aside from Rugops, to hell with Rugops)

[sick lion]

i mean the actuall game

[hollow canyon]

for a very simple reason

because that's an issue with how growth works in the game

[frail bobcat]

Rugops is confirmed

[hollow canyon]

is it?

it was half-confirmed last I've heard

[sick lion]

you talk about how it will or could be, make assumptions. I'm talking about how it's currently live on the server. no wonder we don't come to a common denominator when we're not talking about the same thing

everything can still change, so there's no point in talking about what's coming next for a dino that's lighter than an utah, which utah might, probably, get oneshot.

[golden coral]

I'd rather see smaller numbers overall, for all playables, but that's because I want to see more same species violence as it were. Instead of there being one large utah pack, I'd rather see three smaller ones and having them fight over what pack gets what area to hunt in and so on.

Also if a duo of utahs is enough to kill pretty much everything, or how you said it, then maybe we have a balance issue right there. But that's, well, utah do need some rebalancing, to take functional pounce into account properly.

[sick lion]

Yes, that would be cool, but that's up to the players and unfortunately I don't think that's very realistic, because most of them think it's cool to be in megapacks, or simply to be as many as possible.

[sick lion]

idk, i mean, i see utahs all the time die like flys xD

[hollow canyon]

it's irrelevant, the game is designed around what it is meant to be, that's why all the values of damage and hp have been changed back in 3.75

[sick lion]

its basically balanced around the adulthood.

[golden coral]

Which is why we have the not very fun growth and not very good juvies. And yes, megagroups is an issue all of it's own. But maybe in the future they can work on limit numbers in more and better ways. We have stego coming in at 4 or 5 in a group, for.. god only knows what reason really, because it sure shouldn't be like that.

[sick lion]

I see the same as you.
yes 2 or more stegos are a problem if they do it right you can't pounce them without dying afterwards because they spin in such a way that you jump off against the other stego.
i think everybody knows that the stego players are the most toxic in the actuall game, they only want to kill everything, and dont want to play the real game.

[sick lion]

i think its difficult to balance around this growth thing, i mean how would you do that?xD

[frail bobcat]

My friend talked to a server owner on a server with rules and he said that the server owner said that the only players that break rules are stegos lol

[sick lion]

i think non adults are supposed to be more prey and scavenger, or hunt other juvies.

[golden coral]

Eh.. to be fair, I don't think any apex pair should be something a utah pack goes after. Be it stego, trike, rex, spino, or any of the others. A solo apex should be the most dangerous and difficult thing for a full pack to go after, a pair should just be a no go. And yes, unfortunately people do enjoy just killing (and most stego players are probably those that just go for stego due to sheer power (before when deinos got more up on land, they were pretty bothersome too), and not because they actually like the playable). But that will hopefully get better the more of a complete gameplay loop we get. We do have nesting and skins now, elders coming, and so on.

[golden coral]

Different biomes, different niches while growing up, and so on. And faster growth until you reach a bit more of a capable state. Get to "sub" stego fast, but then stay there longer. Maybe let baby utahs climb, and then lose that as they grow too big. Things like that, so juvies aren't just smaller and worse versions of adults, and less subject to everything else fully grown that they have no chance to fight or escape from. Maybe give quads a "sneak" option, just like the bipeds can crouch. Lots of small things that could be done to make growth more interesting and hopefully enjoyable.

[frail bobcat]

Climbing babu utahs would be cool

[golden coral]

It would. Let them be up there hunting hypsis and worrying about herreras.

[sick lion]

Oh right. so that the baby utahs aren't just the miniature version of a big one, but more different, that they can do other things, juvie things xD? good idea, never thought about it. yes, that sounds cool at first glance.

[frail bobcat]

That should be requested, that juvies are different to their adult counterparts

[golden coral]

Let baby stegos do fracture instead of bleed, makes more sense for their little nubs, and make them a bit faster and more sneaky (quad sneak ability please). So as a small stego, you try to do the pachy thing, break and escape. Then when you get big enough, you get bleed and end up standing your ground more. There's a few ways and I think most juvies could be given something or other to work with.

[frail bobcat]

Let babu pteras catch insects in the forest

[sick lion]

omg thats awesome ideas you have theyre, i would really like that. i like to fight other miniature dinos as miniature utah. I would miss that somehow. but if it's just different, yes, I would find it really cool.

[slim dragon]

Gotta actually be careful with that, because there will necessarily be a point in its growth where stego deals both fracture and bleed (otherwise it has a specific stage of growth where it's absolutely defenseless) and that might end up pretty OP.

[sick lion]

Of course, these are just rough ideas. Of course you have to balance it properly so that something like this doesn't happen.

[golden coral]

You'd probably still run into some other critters in their growths, but you'd also get other grown ones to interact with. Such as hypsis, and possibly other tinies. It's more so that you'd get the proper sized grown ones that you can actually interact with and not just die to.

[slim dragon]

Yeah, my point is that it would probably be very hard to balance
On the other hand, I don't see a lot of possibilities that would make juvie stego better...

[golden coral]

True, but I think it'd be a shift somewhere at end of juvie stage so maybe not much of an issue. But keeping in mind fractures will get severities, and that bleed is based on damage, you could probably work with that. And percentage of bleed damage, like with utah pounce. But yeah, balancing would be needed. It's more so trying to give smaller ones something of a different experience. And yes, it's hard to make much of some of the herbi juvies, they're just.. smaller and weaker versions of adults most of the time. Trike would have this issue too I think, and probably shant as well.

[slim dragon]

true
It's hard to give juvie interesting things to do when their entire niche is being big and powerful

Or maybe they could go the rex route and be entirely different from their adult conterparts, but that's a thing you can only do so often
If juvie stego ends up being fast and agile it'd just be kentro with less spikes
Not to mention it would need a complete remodel

[golden coral]

I don't think that'd work, cause rex has that great advantage of being physically very different during growth. So it can get away with that and make sense. We could give juvie stego bipedal running maybe, but it's.. a little too JPesque (or just round) I think to fit that. Or so I was told once at least. But then we still have things like trike, or giga.

[slim dragon]

Yeah that was my point. It wouldn't work. For stego at least. And probably not trike either. Shant on the other hand... I can see its juvie being fast without it looking weird or dumb

[golden coral]

Yeah, shant could be pretending to be a maia or something when smaller. Stego, it could maybe work, but questionable. Trike.. I honestly have no idea. At least not yet, but I could maybe come up with something. One alternative would be to make it something along the lines of ava possibly, sharing burrows?

[wet sleet]

@slender kettle The risk of death from bleeding after a fight is meant to discourage you from attacking. You aren't supposed running around deathmatching, you are supposed to pick your fights carefully.

I do however agree on the river wallowing. But only for smaller animals. The bigger ones should require a mud pit for that. River wallowing might also take longer to encourage players to use mud pits where both are available.

[frail bobcat]

@wise obsidian so you want carnos to go nuts on two utahs again even tho good carnos can take out those easily. You should start working on how you play carno then start complaining

Because carnos die after 4-5 pounces when they play it right

[wise obsidian]

I never said that they should return back to their previous state. I'm saying that they shouldnt die to just two pounces.

[frail bobcat]

They dont die from two pounces if the carno knows what its doing

[slender kettle]

Sometimes fights are inevitable. It shouldn’t always adequate to death just because you won a tussle. ALL animals should wallow next to water sources. Besides, after river wallowing was taken away, Deino gameplay has been boring.

[frail bobcat]

Tell that the 15-20 percent deino pop on a server lol

[rotund meadow]

Can utahs jump off from pounce at any angle now? I tried to position them so that they jump off onto a rock but it seems that they can leave pounce in front of or behind me

[golden coral]

Yes, they can aim their dismount front, back, and side.

[rotund meadow]

so is the counter just to hit them against a tree now? also can carnos still buck ? I cant see the buck animation

[golden coral]

You can still buck yes, but the best counter is to just make sure you got a tree or rock nearby to knock them off with.

Approach like you would with deino, more or less. You do not drink at deep water, and you do not stay further away from a tree or rock than you need.

[rotund meadow]

gotcha I just had a fight with about 5 utahs as full carno and they would just refresh the bleed and dismount before i could get to a rock or tree jumping off behind me the fight was in the forest with me trying not to run or move too much to exacerbate the bleed. I got a few bites in but they would just escape and heal then come back but i guess in a 5v1 i should die anyway

[golden coral]

Pretty much, anything more than 3 utahs and it should be quite bad news for a solo carno.

[rotund meadow]

are there any good guide videos or tips or tricks for carnos fighting multiple utahs in a coordinated group?

[half girder]

you run

try to re position for an ambush

if u dont have the stam, stand between trees or next to a rock

[hasty coyote]

@sleek light although I do agree that pachy needs some help with the utah matchup, I believe there are other and better ways to do it. Increasing ram damage makes ram too good of an ability (massive stun and knockdown range, fractures, AND damage all in 1 hit is too much) and makes it easier for pachy to kill larger threats, which it generally shouldn't. Ram should be kept the way it is: a tool for breaking and stunning. Increasing the bleed resist also is not needed, pachy is tanky enough against utahs: full bucked pounce does about 1/3 to 1/2 your bleed in my experience, so it is survivable unless you are dealing with a pack and are alone. Increasing the bleed heal isnt going to do much in a fight if the utahs know how to keep you bleeding. Neither of these will work in the long term either since it doesnt help with other small tiers like dilo.

So, what I would do is increase the damage of alt attacks or make headslam (the move you do to open coconuts) deal massive damage to a knocked down target. That way, pachies get 2 options when dealing with utahs: break or kill. You won't be able to do both at the same time with ram, but it makes killing an efficient strategy when dealing with smaller targets and not bigger ones (since alt and headslam are/would not be good against larger targets). Currently, pachy lacks the damage to efficiently kill, you you just have to keep breaking til they cant fight back, then kill.

Also, I have no clue how a single utah killed 3 of yall without a massive skill gap. A bucked pounce does about 1/3 to half your bleed and then that utah has no stam, so the other pachies can chase it down. If the utah managed to bite yall to death, then either yall were easy to bait or that utah had some godly amount of skill in jukes.

[primal harbor]

@mortal island they can

[mortal island]

I'm saying they shouldn't be able to pin something the same size. Like a 450kg Utah should not be able to pin a 450kg Utah.

[primal harbor]

why?

it's not like it will hang off

if you have someone the same size as you hanging off of you, you WILL fall

[hollow canyon]

@fallen vale Carno isn't meant to be hunting Stegos. Idk what to tell you? Why would you want to give them more of a reason to do that if they are just not designed around taking on things of that size?

[wet sleet]

I don't think nerfing the damage or the Carno matchup in general are the right way to deal with Stego dominance. That threat of a one shot is a good thing.

There should be changes to it's food supply and the diet system that encourage Stegos to worry more about that, actually compete with other herbivores (and other Stegos) and encourage them to split up more often.

If that's not enough I would rather look at the Utah matchup.

[frail bobcat]

Maybe that a stego herd cant sustain itself only with diet plants or something like that

[wet sleet]

Yes, something like that. There was a suggestion floating around of making bad diet affect hunger drain. If bad diet also reduced grazing efficiency to a point where it is still a net negative (with neutral diet only stopping hunger drain while grazing?) Stegos would eventually starve given diet plants are reasonably rare and they don't actively go for them.

Whether or not wandering around as a herd would still be viable then depends on plant density. That's because sticking together reduces your search speed. So few high density areas would potentially result in a kind of herd migration while lower density areas would make herds spread out more.

[frail bobcat]

I just hope stegos are gonna be actually difficult to grow, considering they are apexes

[hexed sorrel]

@hollow osprey I dont think it was 3 I think it was 2, maybe 1.5 is the middle ground

There are plenty of counters to utah pounce tbh like sloped hills, trees, rocks, and mudpools

[hollow osprey]

Do not remember the exact time recovery, but the current is way to fast to react and act. Bur I agree around 1.5 - 2 could be a sweet spot

Those are for the most to delay players to attack, sooner you need to move and find water and food, becomes a waiting game. To fight becomes unavoidable

[hexed sorrel]

They shouldnt give too much recovery time as things like teno will just end it after a missed pounce

@true mortar you can get them off trees and rocks

[true mortar]

you cant

theres no collision

[hollow osprey]

Not too much ofc, I agree, but I can pounce and pray on a moving target and the enemy has a hard time to react and act on my failed attempt. We need to put some weight on skill on uthas as well

[true mortar]

in update 3 they would fall just like when a Utah is pouncing with 0 stamina now

[hexed sorrel]

there is xD ive done it with my carno many times

also when I play utah I get dismounted after getting hit by a tree

[hollow osprey]

Those lays on the preys of uthas, not the uthas them self

[hexed sorrel]

?

[hexed sorrel]

also ^

sloped hills is what I would say is the biggest counter

[true mortar]

there is no collision anymore.... the utahs must have dismounted off of u as they saw u were pressuring them against terrain.
ive played this update and trees have no collision when u r pouncing. you go through them

[frail bobcat]

There is

[hollow osprey]

These counters lays on the preys of utahs, not the utahs them self

[sleek light]

You dont wanna know what happened that time, one dudes fps sucked and he hit his teammates. There where times we hit the utah and it fell to the ground but it still floated around while laying down and that confused all of us so much. Well to cut us some slak we were all pretty new with pachy.

I agree with what u say, it does actually make more sense to increse more damange now when you say it in that way.

[frail bobcat]

*utahs

[true mortar]

there is not. utahs dont fall when they hit trees while pouncing.

[frail bobcat]

There is collision, they readded it

Trust us

Try it out

[hexed sorrel]

^

[hollow osprey]

I was hit by tree yesterday so there it is

[true mortar]

okee ill test it
thats awesome then
really missed this feature

[hexed sorrel]

there is, there always was, it was just buggy, now it seems to be working

[hollow osprey]

Long recovery on that one so watch out XD U definetly get a kill with it

[true mortar]

i feel so safe now
it felt so wrong having to use stamina bucking when u r bleeding out

[hollow canyon]

I think it just works weirdly and less reliably now, I've had some fights where I was stuck to a Carno as a Utah and it was running next to trees and I didn't get thrown off

at other times I got thrown off no problem

[wispy kite]

@fallen vale
#balance-feedback message
There is an immense overpopulation of carnivores. So playing herbivores needs to have some advantages.
And why should a Carno hunt Stegos? It’s the Utahs job to hit over its size, Carno on the other hand is an ambush hunter.
So nerfing stegos health seems wrong to me. Those stego players survived 4 hours or longer, why should you now be able to kill them after they invested soo much time?
I’d suggest to speed up herbivores growing speed to increase their population. Then one could think about needing a little bit the damage.

[hollow canyon]

Carno should be better vs small things it's meant to be hunting, if it tries to go against Stego it should die as it does now

When I say that however - I'm heavily implying that it ISN'T good enough vs small things right now

[hasty coyote]

Makes sense then lol. Skill is a big part in this matchup, so if you’re new it’s going to feel unfair. I managed to kill 3 utahs by myself because they were bad. That knockdown bug is caused by desync, you hit them on your side but the server thinks you missed. So utah does the fall down animation but doesn’t take damage.

The main way you want to fight utahs is to play defensive. Stand your ground and alt attack to knock them down when they go to bite, then ram them while they’re down. Trying to use ram to start just makes you predictable, lose bleed, and vulnerable when you miss.

[fallen vale]

Did I speak about nerfing health?... I said carno should not get one shotted. I have been very vocal about Utah being busted and was labelled an "alarmist". Numbers speak for themselves

[sleek light]

Im not new, been playing this game for a very very very very o_o long while. Enough about that lmao, id say im doing decent in fight with pachy but i play with a lot players that new to pachy. not the best xD dont play pachy alot. But ofc still learning, ill remember your tips till next time ^-^ thank you.

[fallen vale]

Point is stegos end up jumping off cliffs out of boredom in a "survival horror" game

[keen plover]

I can agree with that. I always throw my stegos. Game is clearly not meant for it.

[tropic granite]

Sorry for butting in here, but I just wanted to provide a little counter-arguement to the thought that stego should be nerfed on accout of it's current strength "not fitting in with the survival-horror aspect of the game". There are a few animals in today's world that are insanely strong and can live without fear once they reach a certain age or size. Take elephants/rhinos for example, most predators in their habitat don't even bother with healthy adults of these species, but will instead go for they young or old/weak. These animals also survive for for many years to get to this level of safety and earned it. This should be applied when choosing what to fight in the game.

If stegosaurus in one of your preferred prey items, target juveniles or even sub-adults. Going for a full grown stego that is more than double your own weight and a massive spiked tail should be generally a bad idea and is not the mindset of someone trying to "survive" but one of someone with the mindset of "Hey, wouldn't that be fun to kill?"

This is especially true for dinos like carno, where stego isn't even on their diet. And I understand that carno is literally a glutton and needs to constantly inhale food to survive, so attacks out of desperation will happen. But all I'm trying to say is choose your prey wisely, don't always expect to win against something that has obvious advantages over you.

Anyways...hi

[patent oxide]

Stego shouldn't be nerfed, it should have an equal as strong carnivore to match up for it, Giga or Rex

[keen plover]

I feel like any nerfs that carno can capitalise on against stego, utah will capitalise on even better. Which will make stegos lose more often to it. I just don't think stego should be touched stat wise- rather removed or replaced... Issue is - it won't happen

For good reasons obviously, but damn

[wispy kite]

Most Utah Players Messing with stegos do not complain when they get oneshoted. Carno is literally not a one shot except you face tank a stego. So I rly don’t see a problem.

[tropic granite]

Oh yea, I 100% understand where you're coming from. I just wanted to say something about how people say a virtually untouchable animal is not valid in a survival ecosystem, when a few exist in the world right now. Also how some of those same people don't play with the "survival" mindset, and more-so of a "kill kill kill" mindset.
That goes the same for actual stego players as well, especially those who stick their tails in the water and basically mace deinos to death

Honestly releasing something like allosaurus along stego would have been a better idea in my opinion. Seeing as it sometimes preyed on stego irl, and was well equipped to deal with prey that size

[keen plover]

I agree. The only thing wrong with stego is when it self inserts in fights. Even then, a lot of things do. I guess people don't like 'immortal' playables. Also the roster is generally small tiers vs apex tiers. Which can suck for the smaller guys. Now to the point of having some creatures be immortal? That's fine for those who want to play it. I know there's a large community of stego players who play it just to chill and avoid the PVP - while helping others grow. I think there should be a playstyle for everyone. (Although stego was released way too early)

[keen plover]

I personally don't see allo of all things hunting stegos well. Although I could be wrong. I just see stego as anti everything. I don't see anything in the roster doing particularly well against it

Anky and stego are those creatures most things avoid

Utah will probs forever be the 'best' stego hunter. Even then, it ain't that good at it

[tropic granite]

Yea, I can agree with you there. Stego was released very early compared to its competition with most of the roster, but thats just the kind of animal it is. And yea, I didn't mean allo was a great stego hunter, just that I feel like it would have been a better choice over carno in terms of actually dealing with stego. But I won't disagree that those stego players who actively self insert into other fights are very annoying

[golden coral]

I wish we could work with maybe changing the attacks, rather than stat changes overall. Change around which attacks has what speed, maybe even which ones uses camera angle or not (terrible idea that, it wasn't good for teno, it's not good for stego either), and so on. Maybe adjust bleed value (like how utah has pounce) together with damage if needed instead. There's more potential to work with stego than just changing health or blood resist or something like that.

[golden coral]

That would be rather sad if that was the case I think.

[keen plover]

Just my own opinion. I just don't see anything else being able to go in unaffected like utah can with pounce

[golden coral]

Anyway, main issue with stegos "inserting" themselves into other fights, herbi player mentality. We need to get over the whole herbis should stick together, but since everyone seem to like herbi mixing, well, here we are.

[keen plover]

Everything else gets hit imo

[keen plover]

Yeah, we'll hopefully see changes like that with the migration system. My last hope...

[golden coral]

Fair, as it stands right now. This is why I want to adjust attacks. If we do, we could make stego something like really good vs smaller, and decent vs large, while relatively "weak" vs powerful midtiers.

[keen plover]

[golden coral]

Which would be interesting, since we got kentro that can possibly be made decent vs mids but struggle with smaller and larger (though maybe it can run away from the largest things at least!)

[tropic granite]

I know this is gonna sound rich coming from me rn, but I really am not a fan of how long it takes stego to swipe at something literally right behind it, compared to how quickly it moves to attack something right next to it.

Like why pull you tail back to jab at something behind you when you can literally just swing?

[keen plover]

I agree with the utah megapack problem. There is no large 'weakness' to playing utah. The only weakness is low hp, but who cares when you can swarm and survive a hit from everything bar stego and deino. The thing is, utah is just too well rounded that IDK what they could do.

[tropic granite]

Same, just because you are all herbivores does not mean put yourself into potential danger to help an completely different species

[tropic granite]

Agreed. And its like I said earlier, I don't necessarily have a problem with utahs stats itself, but the ability to swarm in unbelievably high numbers and cause a wave of death and performance issues

[golden coral]

Here's what I'd like to try out. Remove all the angles of the attacks, except the quick jab one, and the "full" one (looking straight in front of you I guess, whichever attack has the greatest reach/range). Slow down the quick jab angle to something like the normal attacks, keep the 1200 damage, but 10% stam. Give the other "swing" the current quick jab speed, or closer to it, with 500 or so damage, and 5% stam cost. So you'd have a main swing, good for catching those smaller stuff hopefully, while less dangerous to big things, including carnos. Meanwhile, the new "power" jab would still be useful to snipe a carno if you can, and to fight a deino that decides to actually engage away from the shoreline. Either remove bite and have attacks on LMB/RMB for swing and alt for the jab, or keep bite on LMB, and just have a full "sideview" camera angle, with swing on RMB and jab on alt RMB. This also leaves potential for a "tail wiggle" on alt LMB for moving attack in the future.

[keen plover]

It's the mentality of players... Utah packs should be killing other utah packs but don't for some reason...

Also utahs just don't starve unless you're on a low pop server so no risk of starving even in massive groups

[tropic granite]

I like this idea

[golden coral]

@keen ploverMy ideal stego would be basically "I can hit small and agile stuff and negate any attacks on my flanks perfectly" + "I can hit you really hard if you're slow enough to just stand at my side", which could leave mids as a good danger in packs, being tanky enough to take a fast swing and keep going (especially in packs) while potentially agile enough to juke the power attack (unlike a rex or giga that would not be able to move quite as fast or easy around the stego possibly).

[wet sleet]

And how is this specific change going to affect that? All it does is reducing the risk for Carnos who fancy attacking a Stego for whatever reason. Which I don't think is needed at all.

Stego being busted is a result of (semi) afk growth - you usually don't see them much until they are rather big already - and diets being overly forgiving - which allows them to group up and throw their weight around without having to worry about not starving (in contrast to real life "apex herbivores" like elephants).

I don't think the solution to the issues apexes bring with them can be solved by not making them apexes - instead apexes should be balanced out by being harder to sustain, to the point where they need to distribute across the map and/or compete with each other.

[keen plover]

Could work. Would love to see it in play, but will take a while

[tropic granite]

Agreed. I do think there needs to be more of an incentive to work for you food as a herbivore. Not just eat a bunch and then sit for the remainder of the time

[keen plover]

Anyways, I'll be back to discuss another time, peace!

[golden coral]

@keen ploverMeanwhile, kentro would be less good vs smalls, cause well, smaller and weaker itself, and they would be agile to go for the head and maybe the open spot between shoulder and rear. Larger animals would have the health to just "tank" any thorns damage, but the kentro would be fast enough to achieve escape there a lot easier. Meanwhile, mids would struggle, due to not being agile enough vs a much faster kentro compared to stego, but also not having enough health like a rex to just ignore the potential thorns damage (so an allo would struggle vs kentro, due to it being a terrible target to "hug" and so on).

Alright, cya around!

[tropic granite]

Cya! Thanks for the civil discussion lol. Don't get many of those these days

Honestly, and then there's carno. As it stands right now, carno stays hungry almost all the time, and we all know how dealing with utahs is right now. I'm not generally opposed to the whole "2 utahs vs one Carno thing" but it definitely is an inconvenience. Especially when utahs are already roaming in these large packs atm. (I say as I'm currently trying to grow a carno for who knows why )

[golden coral]

Carno could use a bit of a rework too probably!

[frail bobcat]

Utahs need their pounce fail cooldown higher again, around 1.5 seconds as many have requested, it would fix many issues

[tropic granite]

Yea, definitely. I can only hope that balance comes more frequently as the game progresses in development and becomes more stable

[frail bobcat]

I am hoping for 5.5 to balance the utah

[tropic granite]

And troodon is gonna bring a whole new level of players exploiting otherwise really nice dino abilities. Take dilo in legacy for example. I really loved the idea of it being this creature that slowly brings you down using bleed and the cover of darkness to its advantage, but people being people, they found a way to basically abuse that set of nice traits and turn dilo into one of the more hated creatures in the game

[golden coral]

This would be nice yes!

[hexed sorrel]

yet

[feral flume]

They were only hated because people used em right and ya couldn’t counter them as easy. They made the night scary and people didn’t like that. It’s not like you could play them without skill. I personally really appreciated how dillo played and I wasn’t even a main.

[slender kettle]

@tropic granite they tried to solve that with the AI nerf, and it did absolutely nothing. Player choice is really hard to control, if it's even possible. People have a bias for playing as carnivores, it's just the way it is.

Also, herbivores do tend to form large herds as well, but that seems to be overlooked with the devs.

[hollow canyon]

AI nerf affected Carno numbers in my experience

Utahs are all over the place because they are much easier to grow and maintain

and well... they have a great pvp potential on the current update

[slender kettle]

That was more of a combination of the AI nerf and food drain increase. It solved the Carno numbers, but only because the animal is nearly useless and unsustainable now.

[hollow canyon]

I mean I think that's what the AI nerf was supposed to do

Carno didn't have a food drain increase btw

it drains food as fast as it did before unlike what most people say

I've tested it like a week ago

[slender kettle]

It did, I've played this game on both updates. There's a stark difference..

[hollow canyon]

How long do you think it took Carno to lose all hunger on the previous update?

and how long do you think it takes now?

[hasty coyote]

This was in the changelog under carno

[hollow canyon]

Yea that doesn't mean it loses food faster

[hasty coyote]

so yes, the drain was increased apparently

or wait, does that mean it eats faster?

[hollow canyon]

it could mean either that or that it takes more food to get to 100% and that it loses that food just as fast

as in - the time it takes for Carno to go from 100% to the start of starvation is the same

each "tick" of food being larger all around

[slender kettle]

Carno didn't necessarily need a nerf. It needed another carnivore that could stand on equal footing, like Cerato. Not to mention the raptor pounce was fixed.

[hollow canyon]

Carno didn't really get nerfed... well aside from that bizarre bleed resistance nerf

which was completely uncalled for

[slender kettle]

....That's a nerf

[hollow canyon]

well yea that is a nerf

the rest of the stuff were fixes and general changes how things work

e.g. its bite socket got fixed

[slender kettle]

Teno's shouldn't bleed it out. Skilled teno players have always had a good chance against Carno's. Idk why this is a thing now.

[hollow canyon]

The thing is that it seems that very many people are for some reason convinced that a herbivore should be capable of fighting off 2 carnivores its own size

[slender kettle]

That tail slam was one hell of an asset

[tropic granite]

True, but herbivores are meant to form large herds. Of course not to the extremes, but most herbivores are supposed to find safety in numbers

And herbivores don't generally murder everything in sight, some do * cough cough * tennos * cough cough *

[slender kettle]

THat absolutely doesn't help when there are 5 stegos, 3 packy's, and 2 teno's. That's not balanced in the slightest. That's an unmovable convoy of death.

[tropic granite]

Of course. When herbivores go out of their way to protect other species and attack people minding their own business, yes

[slender kettle]

Also, that's the ecosystem argument again. Bottom line is that Carni players can't take on a massive herd like that. Focus needs to be on BALANCE and FUN PLAYSTYLES, not this (false) sense of an "ecosystem".

A game can never recreate the balance of real nature. So the devs need to stop focusing on something they can never replicate.

[hollow canyon]

Megaherds have nothing to do with an ecosystem, that's just some bad argument seemingly based on some imaginary "realism" that people use to justify the existence of those abominations

Most herbivores in real life don't particularly put much effort into helping even their own kind, much less other species

and if we take some weird one-off, exceptional situations then we can also argue in favour of mixpacking between herbivores and carnivores since there were weird cases of predators not eating, taking care of and even defending herbivores

[tropic granite]

Now, I will say that I disagree with both of those statements. You can't go into a "survival" game with the mindset of kill anything that moves, and expect to have fun, it's just nit gonna work. Part of the game is choosing targets wisely, not whatever looks like it will be fun to kill. Now I will say most if the animals are not very well balances atm and definitely need some work, but its not entirely impossible to recreate the balance of nature in the game. Of course it won't be perfect because people will be people, and they will do whatever they want. But using common sense is going to be necessary to survival, unlike in the legacy version. And honestly, the devs can make the game in whatever image they want.

But we all have the right to an opinion and I respect yours

[slender kettle]

I'm trying to convey that with the habits of herbie players ganging up in large numbers and the nerfing of AI /rapid food drain, Carno has become completely unplayable. This update proved how crucial AI was to carnivore survival.

That's why people are switching to Utah, it doesn't bleed out from a papercut and doesn't have the metabolism of a hummingbird.

There were other ways to reduce Carno numbers, but all the wrong choices were made

This update is by far the most frustrating, and that's coming from someone who's played this game since 2016.

[tropic granite]

Yes, carno does have a problem right now, but they are in the process of actively developing a game. Things need to be tested, and using the players to test things out is part of the development process, especially in a massively multi-player game. None of the decisions made so far are set in stone

[frail bobcat]

And the fact that utahs is REALLY strong now

[tropic granite]

I'm sure changes will be made in the future, like I said earlier, it's normally about testing balance, and how players react to said changes. But of course I can't speak for the dev team because obviously I'm not part of it. But that's just how I'm seeing things right now

[jaunty marten]

so, im being shown that a carno standing a utah jumping distance away from a teno is a reasonable amount of time for them to hit top speed and charge? I would like an actual explanation to said feedback on my dilemma

[tropic granite]

I can't speak for everyone when I say this, but I personally thing being too far away would give anyone plenty of time to get out of the way (Besides stego maybe) making charge less viable. I say this because turn radius while charges is very wide. If anyone could just move out of the way nobody would use charge. Just my opinion tho

[jaunty marten]

thats fair, especially when they needlessly buffed teno, but I mean more for pachys and utahs that can hardly withstand more then 1 ram to the tail

[tropic granite]

Yea, carno definitely needs some better balancing in general. Hopefully it comes along with the next patch

As it stands it's hard enough to even keep one carno fed, let alone 2 + kids if you decide to nest. I just got done playing carno and I was making desperate decisions the whole time trying to simply stay above half hunger

I don't enjoy attempting to kill almost everything I see, but thats about the only option carno has to stay well fed atm

[jaunty marten]

carno hunger is so bad I dont even bother with it anymore, especially since they buffed it in update 4 only to have it nerfed in update 5

[tropic granite]

Oh yea, definitely. I Let my carno buddies eat me so they could survive at least 1 more day lmao. I'll come back to carno once some changes have been made

[jaunty marten]

survive 1 more day? more like the next 3 min before they are back at half hunger

[hollow canyon]

I'm not entirely sure - are you saying that Carno should be even further away from its target to be able to use its charge?

[jaunty marten]

to reach max speed of 55 km/h and then charge? yes just a wee bit further

[hollow canyon]

Why though? Is it for some balancing reasons or are you asking for that to be the case because of realism or something?

[jaunty marten]

Balancing issues for smaller critters i.e pachy and utah; tenos are more than capable of surviving a ram whereas the latter aren’t so durable.

[knotty geyser]

By that mindset, we should also nerf deino lunge.

[hollow canyon]

and Stego's tail...

Tenonto's tail too really

and the kick

all of those send the creatures the size of Pachy and Utah to a certain death, the only difference is that the damage on the charge is just marginally higher to the point where charge can actually oneshot them(Utahs, not Pachys) upon landing a headshot

[alpine plover]

Buff carno or more AI...its a pain to grow it and then just die from 2 teno 50% tail hits as carno 80

[jaunty marten]

Deinos are arguably less a problem than a carno is

[hollow canyon]

Carno is a problem?

[jaunty marten]

Problem as in running into/failing to run away from

[alpine plover]

Exactly my thought

[hollow canyon]

I could understand that maybe last update

but atm dying to Carno sounds like a massive skill issue

[jaunty marten]

Indeed, especially with how teno are rn

[hollow canyon]

wdym?

[jaunty marten]

Teno got stam buff

[hollow canyon]

Well yea, Tenonto claps Carno even harder now, that's nothing new

which makes it even more bizarre why you would want to further nerf Carno

[alpine plover]

Carno needs to be playable again

[jaunty marten]

Im not thinking of a nerf im thinking of perhaps a way to make it more useful, its charge is dumb for both carno and what ever its fighting, I rather carno keep its speed, remove ram until there is a map its actually useful in and give it better bite force or more hp if anything, Ive seen teno 1v2 and win its sad

But perhaps thats just a skill issue

[alpine plover]

It isnt, carno is rly weak

[jaunty marten]

Its why I just mentioned a better bite force

But what do I know, I’m a dryo main

[hollow canyon]

2 Carnos dying to one Tenonto is a bit of a skill issue but

Not much of a surprise tbh that it happens very often, Tenonto really has the upper hand in this fight and can 1v2 rather reliably

it takes a bit of coordination on the side of Carnos to pull that off against any half decent Tenonto

[hollow canyon]

@crimson niche My guy you can have 3 diets all the time with every animal, they don't particularly make anything "easier" to grow.

The difference between the Stego/Deino growth before the diets and now with the perfect diets is negligible.

roughly ~25-30 minutes

it's more so that with the worse diets your growth time just explodes and reaches such absurd numbers that you could probably finish a whole different game in the time that it would take you to grow a Stego/Deino.

you also don't have to do much/move much to grow with a perfect diet either but you have to be smart about it

The fall off in terms of the growth rate between the perfect and great diet is so large likely because the devs expect everyone to be growing on a perfect diet.

[crimson niche]

you cant with deino for example.
You need a playable dino bc theres no AI typ for that diet, i believe thats for every dino. 120% is alot and dropping to 50 just bc u dont have one is a big chunk. The 20% less aint much and its more fair for smaller ones to not boost themselfes to adult with mostly one feeding

[hollow canyon]

yea for carnivores it's a bit harder and more luck-reliant

that's why they have the perfect diet upon eating anything in the beginning

[hasty coyote]

cmon U6, please fix it

[hollow canyon]

@crimson nicheAlso - 100% growth buff would effectively cause everything to grow slower

[crimson niche]

whats the max -% u can have

[hollow canyon]

120%

as you stated - it goes 120%, 50%, 0% and -50%

oh wait you've only said 120%

either way that's how it goes:

0 nutrients = -50% growth debuff
1 nutrient = 0% growth buff
2 nutrients = 50% growth buff
3 nutrients = 120% growth buff

[tall bronze]

You think 120% growth boost sounds cool.

Until you realize that's relative to the base growth times being inflated, resulting in a perfect diet being essentially the same speed as before diets were introduced.

Sigh

But then you get things like Stego taking 10+ hours with a worse diet

[keen plover]

Terrible

I wish diets weren't such a factor to growth

I feel like there's a better way going about it. I like that you regen stam, health, bleed etc due to having higher diets. Those are cool factors. I just think that growth shouldn't be one of those things

Or at the very least, make the punishment less

[wise obsidian]

If they wont remove growth debuffs or just slow growth in general if you arent perfect diet 100% of the time, it would be nice if they made it so that perfect diet actually made you grow faster instead of literally being the same time as pre-diet update growth

[slim dragon]

Diets should factor life expectancy instead of growth speed

[keen plover]

Maybe if they made it where 1-2 diets was necessary for maximum growth speed. It wouldn't be as annoying imo. Also life expectancy? Why would that even matter

[slim dragon]

Cuz of elders
I'd like The Isle feel more like a roguelike where your run necessarily has to come to an end, but you feel rewarded instead of frustrated once it ends
That includes forced elders

[hexed sorrel]

@analog mirage 25 for a kick!? I reckon it should have around 60+

[azure crescent]

i’d give galli kick ~90 damage and bleed

with a 15 N peck

and 550 kg size

with a 52 km/h speed with somewhat slow acceleration

And decent agility

And a good jump

And decent swimming

[azure hinge]

I hate diet right now it's so bad, too annoying to keep up, partly because the stuff on the diet no one plays or is hard to find. For Herbie it's just a walking simulator and knowing spawn points

The only noticeable change is growth time and might as well just afk with 2/3 cause usually the 3rd is horrible to get for carnivores

Just very not fun right now

[hollow canyon]

It's not the same as pre-growth diets actually

It's... marginally faster?

We're talking some 10-15% faster

It used to be the same as pre-diets growth times but the community outcry about those being the same made the devs seemingly improve those at least on paper.

@whole gust What you should be really asking for is a decrease in the bleed multiplier on the pounce, it currently has the highest in the game applying absurd amount of bleed after gods know however many buffs that the raptor received during the past year or so.

[whole gust]

Bleed multiplier?

[hollow canyon]

Basically bleed of every attack depends on the damage it does

Most attacks have a multiplier of 1:1

meaning that they deal as much "bleed" as "damage"

Pounce has a ratio of iirc 3:1

dealing 3 times more bleed than damage

[whole gust]

jeebus

that doesn't sound good at all XD

[pure escarp]

@hollow osprey stego is a apex so why should it be prey for mid tier carnivores, it's like someone asks why a single allo can't kill a single giga with same skill (full growth)

[whole gust]

I didn't know bleed multiplier was a thing

[hollow canyon]

For what it's worth - it "isn't" on most animals it's just damage=bleed so it's even worse

[keen plover]

I mean... If it's mechanically possible (and by possible, I mean a good chance - not carno v stego) , stego should definitely be prey to mid tier carnis? Not saying one mid tier carni though

[pure escarp]

But apex are supposed to be on top of the food chain and it's just unbalanced when a beast that costs much time to grow dies from three not so suffering to grow things, I know in nature was it also so but the isle is a game

[keen plover]

So? Who cares if they're on top. Utah is many times smaller than a lot of its prey. Should it not hunt larger creatures? Or is it that only apexes can't be touched?

[hollow canyon]

It should but when hunting things many times larger than itself e.g. apexes - it should be suffering large losses.

[keen plover]

I mean, or not? Depends how its played and where

[hollow canyon]

it should

which is why things like "omg stego can hit me when I'm dismounting" are well non-arguments

[keen plover]

That's fair to the stego. I guess. I was mainly arguing that some creatures, which utah will be many times smaller - will probably be 'easy' to take down. When compared with stego at least anyway

[hollow canyon]

well - that would mean something is wrong with balancing

[keen plover]

I guess. Utah just has a really good ability. Imo, if they want 8 utahs to take down apex class creatures or have the ability of one, they should probs eventually dial down the bleed value

[hollow osprey]

Yes it is a apex in the current roster and I agree that an allo should have a difficult time to beat a giga. I also agree 1 vs 1 with a stego as mid~tier predator isn't the smartest choose to begin with. What i am refering is that predators need coordination and skill in a pack to take down such a herbivore and the target is a small head. Now the reward to hit the head doesn't match the risk to get hit by the tail and skill. An allosaurus are probably gonna have this species in the diet and in the current meta stego vs carno, a pack often becomes a individual or none existence after a hunt.

[hollow canyon]

it's not that its ability is really good, it's just that it's overloaded

[keen plover]

I'm a bit lost. Can you explain?

[hollow canyon]

over the last year bucking got absolutely kneecapped as a mechanic, Utah's recovery after missing the pounce was decreased to just 1 second and the bleed on it was further buffed

the mechanic itself is alright

you can make any mechanic overloaded, imagine if Deino's lunge range was increased by 10m - the mechanic would suddenly become overloaded too or if Carno's charge increased the turn rate compared to running - that would also cause it to be overloaded

I've already said that Utah's pounce will need nerfs after it gets fixed while it was still broken, all the good stuff it received while not working properly was bound to make it too good, it's really as simple as that

[analog mirage]

I only say 25 cause Gali shouldn’t be encouraged whatsoever to fight anything, it doesn’t need to deal good damage to Utahs or anything because it’ll most likely be able to outrun it anyways

[hollow canyon]

25 seems a bit too little if you ask me tbh

[hexed sorrel]

it still shouldn't be almost as low as dryo bite xD. I think it SHOULD be able to fend off 1 utah

[analog mirage]

Tbf Ptera has a bite of like 20-25 I forgot, but it can kill small things relatively easy. And only things Gali should ever be able to kill are small things I think it’s fine

[hexed sorrel]

or maybe put a decent fight with it

[analog mirage]

That’s the thing, Gali isn’t built to fend off things, it’s built to escape

[dusky surge]

Galli should not be fighting, true, but you can do that without making its attacks weak

[hexed sorrel]

a dryo has 20 as a BITE so a kick from something much heavier than it would be a lot more deadly

[analog mirage]

Hence why I gave the kick a stun/stagger. Even though it’s weak it gives you plenty of time to just simply run away

[dusky surge]

I'd make galli's alt-bite a kick that makes it stationary with good damage

[hexed sorrel]

perhaps 80-100 kick, costs stamina, reduces run speed when doing so, does little bleed

[analog mirage]

So it doesn’t encourage Gali to stay and fight Utahs

[hexed sorrel]

utah should be able to kill galli in a 1v1 dont get me wrong but it should be able to put up a decent fight

[analog mirage]

Ehhh I don’t like the idea of Gali being able to put up a decent fight against a Utah since it would be much safer to just allow it to run away rather than encourage it to (probably in groups) stay and try to kill a Utah. Since that’ll also turn into groups attempting to run them down and kill them

[keen plover]

25n galli bite 👍

[dusky surge]

kick em

[hexed sorrel]

if its 2+ gallies then yeah it should kill 1 utah

[analog mirage]

It’s like Pachy with Carno, it should be able to cripple them and get away, give it too much power and they’ll just stay to fight and kill them

[hexed sorrel]

galli shouldnt have bonebreak

[analog mirage]

No I’m just saying in concept

[hexed sorrel]

yeah but galli will be turned into dryo 2.0 if they gave it too little power

[analog mirage]

It should rely on kicking, then Immediately running

[hexed sorrel]

kicking and do what?

[analog mirage]

Kick, stun Utah, then run

[hexed sorrel]

25 damage? you are already faster so why not run anyway?

why not run without kicking?

[keen plover]

True, why even bother kicking. Since kicking will likely take stam.

[frail bobcat]

Slow accereleration maybe

[hexed sorrel]

I dont imagine galli having slow acceleration but if it does then maybe

[keen plover]

Tbf, it would be worse to potentially stand your ground to kick a utah. Even if you accelerate slow, you could probs still dodge a pounce

[frail bobcat]

It would make sense for galli to have a slow accereleration so carnivores to catch it offguard

[keen plover]

You don't need to be running to dodge a pounce

[hexed sorrel]

unbalanced

since it would just make it a victim of pounce

[keen plover]

I mean, without it. Galli will already be fast and have high stam

[frail bobcat]

It can still dodge it

[hexed sorrel]

how slow we talking here?

[analog mirage]

Slow acceleration so if a Utah is somehow close to you and starts to run and try to pounce you might need to kick it once as a last attempt to be able to get away.

Also the dryo and Gali thing. I see Gali more as a pure runner and staying alive easily by running away. While Dryo is more of a escape artist who can burrow, while both can run on land one can gaurentee a safe escape while the other has to get some momentum before running giving it a weak point

[keen plover]

Galli shouldn't have high speed, stam, acceleration. The thing will also be agile. You'll be making legacy galli again - which is immortal

Unless you want to make it have low stam or turn like a boat?

[frail bobcat]

Dunno, maybe that a utah is fastef on the first 30-40 meters and then the galli can run away safely

[frail bobcat]

This is why I want the slow accereleration

[hexed sorrel]

30-40 meters??

so it has a slower acceleration than carno?

[frail bobcat]

Yes, got a problem with it?

[hexed sorrel]

30-40 meters is a pretty large area

[hexed sorrel]

just doesn't seem realistic

[analog mirage]

I think that’s kinda the point, it will prob turn more like a boat while running to give Carnos a good chance at catching them and hindering them in Forrest’s.

But that’s also kinda the point of Gali, it can’t really fight and kill things but it can escape them given it sees them first

[frail bobcat]

Its a long distance runner with its speed probably in the low 50s, it needs a weakpoint in its run

[analog mirage]

The weak point is the acceleration. So as long as you see something coming you’ll be fine, but if something gets the jump on you you’ll be in a tougher situation

[frail bobcat]

And a slow accereleration would force you to be always aware of your surroundings

[analog mirage]

Yes

[hexed sorrel]

I dont think the acceleration should be as slow as carno

[frail bobcat]

I see we are on the same page here

[keen plover]

Carnos accel is fast rn

[hexed sorrel]

yeah but it still takes a few moments to reach max speed

max speed=charge

[frail bobcat]

When should should the galli be able to get caught then? While its running? Only one playable can do that

[hexed sorrel]

be a good ambush hunter

[analog mirage]

Once it’s on full speed it should be very hard to catch them, unless you’re Carno. But while standing or still accelerating it can basically die to mostly any bite or pounce

[hexed sorrel]

utahs can EASILY catch carnos off guard

just dont be seen and catch the galli off guard, while sitting, not paying attention etc

gallis are not omni potent

[analog mirage]

The best play against a Gali should be to not straight run at it, ambush it from behind or some bush/foliage.

But then again Gali also has that part of being a Omni so it’ll have to put itself in situations where it’s vulnerable like stealing eggs

[keen plover]

I mean, galli can tank a few hits - just doesn't want to deal with pounce

[frail bobcat]

And the slow accerelation would encourage ambush hunting which makes the gameplay cooler

[analog mirage]

Very few bites sure, but a single pounce would definitely do the job

[keen plover]

I'm sorry, but galli having decent - good accel, high speed, good stamina and great agility leads to a badly designed creature. You'd need to make it relatively bad in one of these areas.

[analog mirage]

I already said, bad acceleration

[keen plover]

It would take like 9 utah bites to kill a galli. 3 for carno. Pretty beefy creature

[keen plover]

I know, was mainly talking to unstoppable.

[analog mirage]

Ahh ok

[analog mirage]

Carno should take like 2 bites to kill and one on the head

[frail bobcat]

And bad acc feels like the most reasonable to have because galli with bad speed or stam seems weird

[analog mirage]

Gali with bad stam just turns into Carno where yeah it can run faster, but it can’t really escape

The trade off is you can’t go spring fighting stuff, but if you around something first you can get away easily

[keen plover]

wait... 1 headshot to kill a galli

[analog mirage]

Maybe, or leave it on very low health

[keen plover]

What headshot multiplier do you want for galli?

[analog mirage]

Utah is two to the head from Carno right?

[hexed sorrel]

should be pretty high

every dino is 1.5 besides pachy and stego

pachy is 0.75 and stego is 2

I think

[analog mirage]

Gali has a relatively small head so maybe 1.6 or 1.7

[frail bobcat]

There is another thing I have with galli, because the utah was able to pin a galli in its concept art so I am still wondering if its weight is going to be below 450 kg or 450 kg

[hexed sorrel]

I reckon 2

[analog mirage]

Should be below

[hexed sorrel]

small head, hard to hit

maybe even more than 2

[keen plover]

Honestly, a 2x wouldn't be bad for galli. It has a lot of advantages

[analog mirage]

If you allow it to tank bites it’ll just get away

[frail bobcat]

Many people say it should be above 450 kg and I dunno why

[keen plover]

Galli should not be less than utah

[frail bobcat]

Can somebody give us the galli concept art real quick

[frail bobcat]

Same weight?

[keen plover]

Galli at 510kg is fine

You don't need to pin a galli to kill it

[frail bobcat]

So you think the pinned galli was a sub?

[keen plover]

A pounce alone will end the fight regardless

[hexed sorrel]

bleed would be deadly for galli anyway

[keen plover]

No running = death for galli

[hexed sorrel]

it is a concept art

[analog mirage]

I just don’t want it to be too tanky where it can take multiple bites from Utah (for whatever reason)

[frail bobcat]

Utah concept art shows a utah pinning a galli

[hexed sorrel]

if it bleeds out easily I really dont see why taht would be a problem

[keen plover]

Just... bleed it?

[analog mirage]

True

Ig 510kg is fine

[dusky surge]

utah used to be able to pin up to 1000kg so

[frail bobcat]

Wot?

[dusky surge]

were you around for U3?

[frail bobcat]

1000 kg? That is op

[keen plover]

(It was 1000kg)

[dusky surge]

No, it was 500kg

It pinned things twice it's weight

[frail bobcat]

I am playing the isle since april

[keen plover]

oh 1000hp?

[dusky surge]

Yes

HP did not equal weight back then

[keen plover]

Yeah forgot

[dusky surge]

U3 Utah was insane

[frail bobcat]

Maybe the galli is gonna get the carno treatment and just have a bad bloodpool

[analog mirage]

It should

[dusky surge]

no lmao

[keen plover]

I still remember when 4 utahs could pounce on a stego and end it in seconds

[dusky surge]

also carno doesn't have a bad bloodpool

it has a higher bleed rate

[keen plover]

damage based utah was funny. Bring it back.

[analog mirage]

Just bleeds our fast

[analog mirage]

Allo

[frail bobcat]

Yeah thats what I meant

[dusky surge]

i REALLY don't see the need for galli to have an exceptional sensitivity to bleed

[keen plover]

Allo should be a bleeder

Alberto can deal the damage

[dusky surge]

pachy literally can bleed out from one pounce

galli has all of 10 more blood on it

[frail bobcat]

True, a pounce ends a galli anyway cause it cant run anymore lol

[keen plover]

That would be terrible. 510 BP is already low

[analog mirage]

To make it extra careful about checking it’s surroundings. It’s a squishy creature who can’t really fight but can escape almost any threat

[dusky surge]

or just make it awful to play?

[frail bobcat]

And if there is two utahs one can pounce and the other one chases it down

[keen plover]

Nah. Trust me. You don't want it to be that bad

[dusky surge]

My god, I just LOVE dying to a fresh sub utah

[keen plover]

^

[dusky surge]

As an adult galli

[hexed sorrel]

so basically never be in a forest or else you're dead

[analog mirage]

Basically

[dusky surge]

Never be in a forest or near a bush or anywhere

[frail bobcat]

Actually, screw the bad bleed resistance idea

[keen plover]

Imagine chilling and a little rat pounces you with your already low BP

[hexed sorrel]

be in strict plains

[dusky surge]

Galli is already sensitive to bleed simply due to its size

[analog mirage]

Ig bad bleed isn’t the best idea, but if a Utah gets a few bites on it, it should bleed out in run

[dusky surge]

And unlike pachy it cant spam a billion stun/fracture moves to fuck you up

[frail bobcat]

And its need to run from stuff

[dusky surge]

It just runs (which makes you bleed faster)

[keen plover]

No

[dusky surge]

Why do you want galli to be shit to play

[keen plover]

What's a few bites anyway

[stray venture]

Gali shouldnt be bad to bleed it but if a utah pounces it its gonna most likely get fucked by bleed just due to utah being almost its size and it not being as robust as pachy.

[hexed sorrel]

utah needs a pounce for it to bleed out

[dusky surge]

It's an omnivore that's GOING to be running directly AT shit like utahs for their eggs

[hexed sorrel]

bites are only useful to make stuff not heal

[dusky surge]

If it dies to a papercut, it'll be punished for doing what it needs to survive

[analog mirage]

Yeah, risk reward. You can get eggs and get away with them, but you gotta play carefully and can’t just run in and grab them

[dusky surge]

You already HAVE risk reward

So basically, I RISK dying to a single bite for the REWARD of a small stomach fill and a bit of nutrients

Awesome I absolutely am DYING to play this animal

[frail bobcat]

Galli is a playable that needs to run. Bleed fuxks you up while you are running

[hollow canyon]

700kg actually

[analog mirage]

I took back on the horrible bloodpool

[dusky surge]

Utah was not 700kg

[hollow canyon]

it used to be 700kg then went down to 450kg

[wicked crater]

then dont get hit.

[dusky surge]

It was 500

[hollow canyon]

it was

[analog mirage]

^

[keen plover]

lol

[hollow canyon]

nah, early on in the game Utah used to be 700kg which was a bizarre number

I always found it weird but that's what it was

[keen plover]

Don't get hit. 💀

[dusky surge]

Galli is an animal that relies on movement. More movement = more bleed

[analog mirage]

2-3 bites should be enough to bleed it out if it starts running

[frail bobcat]

True, skill issue who gets hit

[wicked crater]

its that simple, skill issue

[hollow canyon]

idk if I have a screen of the character sheet from that time

[dusky surge]

???

[frail bobcat]

Nah

[stray venture]

I dont think it really needs a shit blood pool but like it or not galis gonna get fucked by a pounce or a couple bites its not a tall pachy shits skinny af. I hightly doubt its gonna be able to tank much or any really.

[dusky surge]

Why the fuck do you people want galli to suck

[keen plover]

2 bites is barely a dent in its health 💀

[stray venture]

thats a bit low considering how fast utah bites

[keen plover]

exaggeration but still

[dusky surge]

Galli gets bitten twice on the tail and dies how amazing

[stray venture]

and how little that dents into utahs health

[wicked crater]

well, thats just dumb

[stray venture]

utahs bite doesnt really do bleed anyway

its a tool to keep the blood on not apply it

[dusky surge]

Galli SHOULD be fucked up by a pounce and lack proper attacks to defend itself in a brawl against a utah. However, it should be able to run

[frail bobcat]

What do you think of the slow accereleration thingy that we discoussed?

[hexed sorrel]

bites should only be used to continue bleeding as in not let your prey heal its bleed, main attack that does bleed is pounce

[frail bobcat]

^

[mental roost]

Don’t forget, carno also exists, with each bite doing 175 damage + 175 bleed

[keen plover]

1 bite... galli bleeds out

[stray venture]

wait actually?

[dusky surge]

yes

[stray venture]

damn

[dusky surge]

bite and bleed are 1:1

[stray venture]

what da hell boy

[dusky surge]

(unless ur utah pounce which is 3:1)

[keen plover]

Galli dying to a single carno bite 💀

[hexed sorrel]

yeah they should just be there. useless.

[mental roost]

||Carno could use having its bleed be 1: .75 but that’s a different subject||

[frail bobcat]

Galli should be an animal where you need to play carefully but you should not bleed out to three utah bites, that is bs

[dusky surge]

Galli weaknesses, imho, should be

• Dogshit swimspeed
• Poor stam regen (when not resting)
• Turn becomes poor while sprinting
• Very poor self-defence and damage for its size. Not awful, but really nothing great. Relies on running

[hexed sorrel]

so how much damage?

[dusky surge]

60 on a stam-consuming slow kick move could be fine

[hexed sorrel]

I reckon 75

[keen plover]

any knockdowns, bleed?

[frail bobcat]

I think slow acceleration could be a thing too, to make it more aware of its surroundings

[dusky surge]

Knockdown on smaller animals

[hexed sorrel]

75 with ok bleed

terrible dps

[keen plover]

So utah

[frail bobcat]

Why bleed?

[dusky surge]

No bleed for galli

[hexed sorrel]

claws on legs? idk

[dusky surge]

Unneeded

[mental roost]

I kind of hope they look at how Ostritches and Cassowary’s kick for an idea on how Galli should kick..

[keen plover]

While bleed does make sense (since it could gore) - it doesn't need it

[frail bobcat]

I can already see the pachys getting knocked over by gallis lol

[hexed sorrel]

it could just attack very slowly having really bad dps

[dusky surge]

Then headbutt the fuck

[hexed sorrel]

but deal decent damage 75

[dusky surge]

And now its got a broken leg

[keen plover]

then peck it to death

Easy

[azure crescent]

Galli should be able to fight back against smaller animals but nothing around utah size

[mental roost]

Sort of dedicated because it thrusts them forward( which imo should also knock them out of sprint briefly..but I’m just spitballing)

[analog mirage]

^

[hexed sorrel]

ofc

[azure crescent]

So galli should just have shit acceleration so it isnt just OP

[frail bobcat]

What I am wondering how gallis are gonna coexist with herbies considering its a omnivore

[hexed sorrel]

not fight back, but still do decent damage

if the utah plays poorly

[frail bobcat]

To give carnivores the chance of an ambush

[hexed sorrel]

it would just get dunked on by carno and utah

[keen plover]

Probs be fine with them honestly. Depends what's around

Not every herbi will nest

[dusky surge]

Which is something that makes me think galli shouldn't be so weak

Herbis and carnis alike will want it dead in the right circumstances

[azure crescent]

I literally said anything smaller than a utah

Not utahs

[azure crescent]

How would anything ambush it other than a carno then lmao

[hexed sorrel]

catch it off guardf

[azure crescent]

So that the second it notices it just takes off instantly at the second best land speed in the game?

It should have mediocre accel at best

A galli shouldn’t be too close to the jungles or cover anyway

[hexed sorrel]

no. but make it have bad bleed res for getting pounced

if the galli notices you before being caught, your fault for not going at the right time

it shouldnt have insane acceleration, nor should it have bad acceleration. it should just be a middle ground imo, like slightly better than carno

[dusky surge]

it should have the same bleed res as the rest of the roster

which is 0 (besides deino)

[hexed sorrel]

actually, nah I feel like the bleedres on it should be worse

just to punish it for getting pounced

or bit

[frail bobcat]

Its already getting punished enough. It needs to run and running worsens bleed so one pounce fucks a galli up bad times

[hexed sorrel]

I think it would need to be punished more than if a pachy got pounced

[analog mirage]

As long as it’s running it’ll bleed good

[frail bobcat]

Its main defence is running

[hexed sorrel]

I think being pounced should be a death sentence for it

which if it doesnt have bad bleed res it likely wont be

[frail bobcat]

Being pounced means you are gonna be easily trackable and you have bad stam regen cause low bleed

[hexed sorrel]

keep in mind galli probably will have good stamina

combined with good speed, it will have more than enough time to have the plus when running away

while u got pounced, utah will have very little stamina

[frail bobcat]

Utah has it too and if it can track the galli down the galli will run out of stam eventually. If two utahs are hunting one galli one pounces and the other chases it down and the utah will win that chase if it can stay on its trail cause the galli will run out of stam and will not be able to regen it

If it stays on its trail tho

Because a galli can easily escape a utah speed/stamwise

[hexed sorrel]

if 2 utahs, and one pounces, yeah galli will 100% die

my point is it should be hard for utahs to pounce it, in return it should be dead when being tracked

[frail bobcat]

And utahs are rarely alone, so an additional punishment for pounce isnt needed

[hexed sorrel]

I could say gallies may rarely be alone

[frail bobcat]

Ambush because I can see galli have bad accereleration

[hexed sorrel]

no one said it was a solitary animal

[hexed sorrel]

if it does, then pounce shouldn't be a death sentence

[frail bobcat]

True

[frail bobcat]

It wont be

It will hurt it very badly but it wont kill it

[hexed sorrel]

and what I said was, it SHOULDNT have bad acceleration but if a utah DOES pounce it, it would be pretty much dead if they chase it

[frail bobcat]

But I think one or two more bites will do the job if the utah manages to catch up again

[frail bobcat]

But how do you kill a galli then if it does not have bad accereleration

[hexed sorrel]

1 or 2 bites would leave the galli at 80% blood if it runs

[hexed sorrel]

ambush it

[frail bobcat]

With pounce

[frail bobcat]

How when its basically instantly faster than you?

[hexed sorrel]

the whole meaning of ambush is surprising things

[analog mirage]

No it does need some momentum to get going because it shouldn’t just be able to start running and be immortal as soon as it hears footsteps

[hexed sorrel]

never said that, I said it shouldn't have 'bad' acceleration

it shouldn't be known for it

[frail bobcat]

But a utah should be faster in the first 30-40 meters

[hexed sorrel]

thats ridiculous

[analog mirage]

Gali should be immortal once it gets that momentum going, it needs poor acceleration as a weakness

[hexed sorrel]

do you have any idea how far 30-40 meters is?

[frail bobcat]

^

[frail bobcat]

The galli is six-seven meters long thats a few bodylengths

[hexed sorrel]

so, by 30-40 meters if its slower than UTAH it would get utterly decimated by carnos

[frail bobcat]

Carno got bad turn and the galli can dogde it and tank two hits so that wont be a problem

[hexed sorrel]

tank 2 hits? but die to bleed

[frail bobcat]

True

[analog mirage]

Carno is like galis one true counter

[hexed sorrel]

and galli will have bad sprinting turn or else it would looks weird

[frail bobcat]

Gallis wont be faster than carnos anyway

[hexed sorrel]

not as bad as carno ofc, but not the best

[frail bobcat]

Better than a carno for sure

[analog mirage]

If Gali has mediocre turn radius as Carno it’ll be great on Carnos part to get a meal

[frail bobcat]

Just outturn it until you reach full speed and then dodge it until it runs out of stam

[analog mirage]

Yeah

But Carno would obviously catch up to you and it’s up to you to dodge it

[hexed sorrel]

idk, 30-40 METERS of ambush distance just seems ridiculous to me, utahs should just come up close, and surprise it

[keen plover]

That just makes galli mindlessly easy though

[frail bobcat]

30-40 meters is not long, these are 3 seconds in a utah sprint

[hexed sorrel]

even so, if you ambush something, 30-40 meters is a long distance

you are meant to get as close as possible

[frail bobcat]

30-40 is not long for large animals as an ambush distance

[hexed sorrel]

it is

and we are talking about utah here

not the largest

[frail bobcat]

6 meters long

[hexed sorrel]

thought u were talking weight

but even so, the players reaction speed matters aswell

if you, were running straight to it, it would take a 1 sec or 2 for them to realize if you surprise them, they arent just gonna run like immediately after you run

so that makes it around 60+meters

[frail bobcat]

But a utah has to get in like a 20-30 meter range to even have a chance to ambush the galli in that case

[hexed sorrel]

IMO galli should not have a great acceleration but not bad aswell, just does not make sense when they thing is evolved to run away from predators

[frail bobcat]

And the galli needs to have a weakness, so why not to ambushes?

[hexed sorrel]

the weakness is the bad bleed res as i said

it WILL have moments of weakness where its no paying attention

they arent just going to be looking around 24/7

like when a carno ambushes a teno, if the teno knows its there the carno will lose indefintely

[frail bobcat]

Bad bleed resi means a sub utah could hunt a grown galli

[hexed sorrel]

no, it can defend itself

[analog mirage]

Here’s Gali’s weaknesses

.poor acceleration
.can die to one pounce or nearly survive
.longer stamina regen
.is a egg thief and therefor will be forced to get in situations where it might get killed

[hexed sorrel]

a kick would do 85~ damage, but bad dps

[frail bobcat]

Plus the ones mr. Carno mentioned

[hexed sorrel]

I reckond a 75-85 damage for galli would be nice

[analog mirage]

Oh yeah and poor turn radius while running

[hexed sorrel]

stuns anything 1/3 of the weight or slightly higher

[analog mirage]

There’s no reason to give it a stronger kick because it’ll only encourage groups to fight Utahs

[frail bobcat]

Plus bad swimspeed

[hexed sorrel]

or slows down running from things that get kicked for a brief amount of time

[hexed sorrel]

no, as I said, bad dps

[frail bobcat]

Multiple gallis

[analog mirage]

Doesn’t matter. Groups would still fight them

[frail bobcat]

Which they arent supposed to, I guess

[hexed sorrel]

then yeah, gorups of gallis will fight maybe 1 or 2 utahs

[hexed sorrel]

and they'll die

bad survival option for them

stegos kill tenos, they arent meant to, people are just like that which you cant change

also if the galli goes for a kick, it leaves them open for a pounce

as kciks will probably cost stamina

[analog mirage]

Idk, just no reason to give it a stronger kick to deal that kinda damage. Maybe like 40 would be fine

[hexed sorrel]

just not realistic, legs are very strong

[keen plover]

40 is bad

[hexed sorrel]

75 is good, strong legs should deal damage

[analog mirage]

Gali doesn’t need to deal good damage. It’s a runner

[keen plover]

If it's stationary, it could go up to 100n and it will be fine

[frail bobcat]

Lets sum up gallis weaknesses:
Bad accereleration (is slower than a utah in the first 30-40 meters)
Bad swimspeed
Bad turn while running
Bad stam regen when not sitting

[keen plover]

It doesn't need to run from everything lol

[hexed sorrel]

it does, to defend itself from slighter smaller things

[analog mirage]

It should run from anything that’s Utah sized and above

[frail bobcat]

These are strong legs, realistically it could oneshot a utah

[frail bobcat]

True but it needs a dangerous kick to scare off everything below

[keen plover]

You have to realise, 40n is nothing for a kick.

[hexed sorrel]

well yeah, but it should still deal damage to them so the utah has something to worry about rather than just spamming rmb or lmb and not worrying about getting hit

[analog mirage]

Giving it a kick of like 40 is fine to scare off anything smaller than it

[keen plover]

40 won't scare anything austro sized lol

[frail bobcat]

Herras

[hexed sorrel]

utahs shouldnt be able to tank 11 freaking hits from something of that size

[analog mirage]

Only things it’ll actually have to fear is like Herrera and other stuff it might be raiding nests of like Dryo

[hexed sorrel]

they have strong legs, please understand

[analog mirage]

Just cause they can doesn’t mean they should

[hexed sorrel]

75 damage, with minimal bleed should be good for it

[keen plover]

and why shouldn't they?

[frail bobcat]

If something can run at high speeds for a long time means they be kicking the shit out of stuff

[dusky surge]

no bleed

galli kick should not be bleeding more than utah bite

[frail bobcat]

I would be fine with 75 and a knockdown (that is very short)

[analog mirage]

Because it’s not meant to be dealing good damage against opponents, all it needs to do is kick, stun and run. Giving a good kick will encourage combat more which goes against its playstyle

[hexed sorrel]

why? not much but minimal bleed which would be a problem for smaller stuff

[hexed sorrel]

never said that

[dusky surge]

and yet that's how it would be

because with most attacks that do bleed, it's at a 1:1 ratio with damage

[keen plover]

Eh. I don't mind if they do go with bleed or not for a kick

[dusky surge]

75 > 65

[keen plover]

I was against it before but eh

[frail bobcat]

You could implement a new bleed/damage ratio for that attack

[dusky surge]

You could but frankly I don't think they WILL

If they won't do it for carno and deino

[frail bobcat]

True

[analog mirage]

Why does Gali even need to deal bleed?

[dusky surge]

It doesn't

[keen plover]

And? people who do combat die

[frail bobcat]

So 75 and no bleed?

[analog mirage]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

I literally don't know why the fuck people want it to do bleed

[hexed sorrel]

I'm ok with no bleed

[dusky surge]

Buff it in literally any other area but combat

[analog mirage]

It shouldn’t do bleed, and it shouldn’t be encouraged to fight

[hexed sorrel]

but 40 damage is not ok

[frail bobcat]

Runny boi

[dusky surge]

i can agree that 40 damage is kinda shite

Unless it's a legacy kick

In which case dear fucking God

[keen plover]

bring it back

[frail bobcat]

What do you think about the bad accereleration as a weakness?

[analog mirage]

I’m fine if it had a quicker kick as long as it’s not encouraged to fight

[hexed sorrel]

1,000,000 dps

[keen plover]

Legacy galli had bad accel iirc

[frail bobcat]

What was the thing with galli kick?

[dusky surge]

Legacy galli was a fucking insane S-Tier animal with nearly no weakness

It was so insanely good it got boring to live with it

[hexed sorrel]

I remember the day when they buffed the running kick dps of galli lmao

[frail bobcat]

But making it weak to ambushes could work out for galli as a weakness

[dusky surge]

It literally already would be with no stat changes

If it's got shitty doo-doo combat

[analog mirage]

^

[dusky surge]

Here's what you gotta do with galli. Give it a stationary kick as an alt-bite that does like 60 damage and knockdown/stun, so you can knockdown a utah and book it across the plains before it can get up

[frail bobcat]

I mean with bad acceleration. So that a utah is faster in the first 30-40 meters of a sprint or something like that, maybe a bit less

[analog mirage]

That’s fine

[dusky surge]

Make it have very poor stam regen during anything but rest

So it rests a lot (making it vulnerable to ambush)

[keen plover]

Have more gallis to punish the utah Jokes aside, good idea

[dusky surge]

It can have good trot and sprint speed, sure, but make it have poor stam regen

[analog mirage]

Yes

[dusky surge]

(Also RMB is a dust cloud to blind the utah just in case it is arrogant enough to believe it can continue the chase)

There's my gallimimus kit

Peck, kick, dust

[frail bobcat]

You should make a suggestion for it in general feedback

[analog mirage]

I think Fillipe said it won’t have a dust/sand attack that it throws but will just create dust behind it as it runs

[dusky surge]

ah, well that's also fine

[hexed sorrel]

wouldnt that just make it really easy to track?

[frail bobcat]

Short distance behind it nothing too crazy

[analog mirage]

Yeah, but also runs extremely fast and probably won’t stop so you’ll run out of stam by the time you catch it

Think I’ll write ideas every day for a playable in balance feedback

[frail bobcat]

General feedback then