balance-feedback-discussion

[half girder]

but at the same time fps and ping works with it so

game will never be smooth which is a prob

truly a despair moment

[fresh laurel]

you are forgetting all of pounce counters and how utah is a glass canon

[half girder]

yes right i forgot

5 headbutts to kill something you “counter”

yes ofc

game needs more skilled players tbh

balance will always be meh

[fresh laurel]

tbf thats more on pachys side, not utah

pachy happened to be nerfed while utah got its needed changes

[half girder]

hmmm i mean

idk dude

hitboxes tend to be poopy butt with pachy

like head butting a carno 4 times to the leg or head and it being or body or just no fracture

[fresh laurel]

then fix said hitboxes

[half girder]

won’t really fix the bigger picture

can’t wait for fracture levels

[dusky surge]

fracture levels epic

[fresh laurel]

whats that again

[half girder]

something that hopefully isnt scratched

would help alot with balance

[fresh laurel]

describe it

what is fracture levels

[half girder]

i think they were tiers

[fresh laurel]

doing a bad job of explaining how it would make fractures better

🥱

[dusky surge]

wow you really are just being unpleasant rn huh

why not actually give him time to explain what they are before being a jackass, hey?

[half girder]

i dont know tbh, we'll have to wait and see lol

i dont know exactly.

[dusky surge]

laymans terms is fracture tiers mean the more damaged your limb becomes, the more severe the fracture becomes

like, as a rough example
Mild leg fracture = 25% speed reduction
Serious leg fracture = 50% speed reduction
Severe leg fracture = 50% speed reduction and can't sprint

Not confirmed at all btw, just an example

[mental roost]

God I hope that they didn't scrap fracture levels... and hopefully it'd make being stunlocked to death a little less insufferable.

[half girder]

ty for explaining lol i was too lazy no cap

[fresh laurel]

finally

[rapid flicker]

Any gang of any dino would destroy said dinosaur. Also the only way to get rekt by a pachy is when you get hit. And if you get hit by something slower then you then that’s on you!

[hexed sorrel]

utah is balanced but there are definitely some things a bit wrong with them, as in, pouncing on a 90 degree angle shouldn't be there, spam pounces are too easy(therefore I think they should make a 3 second pounce cooldown if you miss instead of making it a death sentence if you miss a pounce). juvie utahs shouldnt be able to apply bleed to adult dinos like carno and teno. and I WOULD agree to the no pounce to the head but that would just make it hard to pounce stuff since its VERY easy to just turn your head around and since it is a 3rd person dinosaur game its very easy to just turn your head on whichever utah is near you.

[half girder]

so utah isnt balanced then

shouldve fixed pounce before anything

[hexed sorrel]

it is

utahs pounce is only magnetic when its vertical to the dino

like when a ptera is flying above you

other than that its pretty much desync

[grave veldt]

Utah is magnetic no matter where you pounce

Which is a big reason why I dislike it

You don’t even have to avoid areas like face pouncing a carno since you just latch on the side no questions asked

U can even tank a bite while doing it which is even worse

If Utah pounce was only magnetic when pouncing the side I wouldn’t mind it all

[hasty coyote]

Utah's numbers are fine for the most part, pounce is just too easy to use atm. Personally, I would slowly decrease its usability, so we don't nerf it into the ground and find a good median.

First step: put carno's bleed somewhere between U4.5 and U5, give pachy a damage tool, make missed pounce delay 1.5 secs, make pounce less magnetic, and make a 3-5 sec cd on pounce after missing.

If utah is too weak after this: make missed cd 1.25 sec and/or make it slightly magnetic depending on the issues
If utah is still too strong: make tail unable to be pounced and knock down utah for like 1-2 secs.

[frail bobcat]

I think base of tail would be still fine

[hasty coyote]

yeah, but im just not sure if there is a separate "base of the tail" hitbox or not. If there is, then yeah.

[frail bobcat]

The damage of tailhits varies. There is tip of tail (basically no damage), tail (little damage) and base of tail (half damage, at least in my experience)

[hollow canyon]

I genuinely think that the attitude of most people towards the Utah vs Carno match up is just wrong and not very survival-oriented.

Having Utah deal relatively well against Carno right now isn't necessarily that big of a problem - the roster is rather small, there aren't that many animals in it and most of them are small enough that Carno can hunt them HOWEVER - this is a very shortsighted perspective.

Carnotaurus is an animal designed and outright stated to be a small game specialist. In the current roster - most animals can very much be classified as small game and are potentially on the menu for this animal, however the current roster is NOT representative of what this game will be like when it's in a further state of development. As we get more larger playables the percentage of viable Carno prey items among the whole population will be going down. Carno fares very poorly vs both Stego and Deino as it absolutely should. This animal has 0 business going after the big guys. It shouldn't even think about hunting animals larger than itself. As time goes on the number of playables that are viable Carno prey will be decreasing and with Carno being as limited as it is in what it can hunt is should perform well or even very well against the things it is meant to hunt.

Utahraptor on the other hand is pretty much the direct opposite of Carno's specialist niche - it is a generalist, this animal handles most things relatively well. Everything is on the menu for the Utahraptor with the exception of Deinosuchus.

This is the exact reason why Carno should be far more dangerous to Utah than vice versa - Carno is specialised in hunting animals such as the Utahraptor.

A specialist specialising in hunting a generalist should have a really big advantage over the generalist in the match up between the two of them.

tl;dr - Utah is too good vs Carno and has no right to be this good when taking into account the full roster and what those animals are meant to be doing

Specialist should outperform a generalist in their specific niche.

[hasty coyote]

i know theres tip and regular tail hits, just havent tested base of tail myself

[frail bobcat]

I was hit by a fg carno and it did 1/6 health so I guess that was a base of tail hit

[fresh laurel]

utah is fine

[half girder]

ok

[fresh laurel]

well, that went better than expected

[hallow spire]

Lol

[wispy kite]

In nature generalists always come out on top. Think about humans, lions, crows etc.
And now think about the highly specialised cheetahs, humming-birds.

[dusky surge]

cheetahs are one of the most successful hunters in their ecosystem

they're just super weak and can get scared off by scavengers

i believe the statistic was that their hunts had a 70% success rate, which is literally insanity

[wispy kite]

Exactly. Super efficient hunters, and that’s it. They are not the dominant species in its ecosystem, just because they are specialised.

[dusky surge]

i feel like you're forgetting that cheetahs are not over three times the size of lions

if a cheetah was 4x larger than a lion, like how a carno is 4x that a utah, it would fucking destroy the lion

[wispy kite]

Alright, lions are literally killing adult elephants. Pack hunters have proven to be more successful when it comes to the place in the food chain.
If raptors can kill a stego, then they can kill a Carno as well.
As a Carno player you always have the option to avoid a fight, you are literally faster.

[dusky surge]

And as a raptor, you also have the option to avoid the fight. You have superior agility, stamina and the ability to jump

The take that specialists shouldn't outperform generalists in the niche their specialised in just makes it that not a fucking soul will ever want to play a specialist

[keen plover]

I hope utah has its short climb ability soonish

Whenever herrera is added, hopefully

[keen plover]

Eventually, I think carno should be more of a monster against utahs. Whenever utah has that ability + map changes + more roster inclusion

[hollow canyon]

Idk about calling lions and humans generalists. My point was more so referring to the game. If you're good in a very narrow niche you should perform really well in it. Utahraptor has a choice to go after almost every animal on the roster. Carnotaurus is specifically meant to be good when going after animals such as Utahraptor and Pachy. Idk but it seems that it should be pretty obvious to everyone I think that Carnotaurus should hold a significant advantage over Utahraptors in an encounter between the two species.

This isn't obviously to say that every specialised animal with a narrow prey-choice should be good against every generalist but in this specific case when Utah is quite literally meant to be hunted by Carno being the very description of Carno's go to prey - I mean Carno should handle Utahs very well.

[dusky surge]

I agree, however, being generalists, utah should begin getting an upper hand outside of carno's preferred specialties (forests or more confined areas with less space to move around).

utahs being the advantageous creature in carno's preferred environment and within carno's preferred size range is... egh

[hollow canyon]

well fair enough although when I say generalist I mean more so that it can hunt pretty much everything barring some specific exceptions(deino)

[dusky surge]

i mean, evidently, but being a generalist doesn't mean you can do everything :P

[hollow canyon]

well tell that to Utahraptor on the current patch lol

[dusky surge]

the aquatic ecosystem, and deino hunting as a whole, is well out of utah's forte

[hollow canyon]

Disregard aquatic ecosystem for a second, Deino is out of Utah's menu simply because the goddamn thing has such an enormous bleed resistance coupled with such a pathetic stamina pool that you will first kill it via damage from the pounce rather than via bleed.

it's pretty much the perfect counter to Utah in terms of surviving it

[dusky surge]

pretty much yea

[hollow canyon]

Either way - aside from this animal literally everything in the game is a good potential meal for Utah

that isn't the case for Carno

and that's even though most animals in the game are small right now which should be right down Carno's alley

[hexed sorrel]

@vapid pulsar they only did 2 pounces? if you bucked it would be impossible for you to have died, even if you ran the whole way through, 2 pounces is NOT enough to kill a carno. also how did 2 utahs manage to get you down so low? were you running after being pounced more than 3 times? were you bucking?

honestly when I play carno I literally kill any utah pack under 4 without any problem, maybe I have to play more but that was just my experience

[vapid pulsar]

There were 2 pounces, I have healed it, then they came again, I knocked of and killed one, other one was killed by slightly running to the tree near by and knocking off.

My issue is not how they were killed or how many pounces were made, my issue is I was 40+/- bleeding while sitting, and I still died.

[hollow canyon]

tbh I find it rather interesting because Carno's sitting bleed resistance was left untouched from what I recall

[hexed sorrel]

I think he means how fast blood drains

[vapid pulsar]

I have been sending photos to my friend next time I’ll record it

[hexed sorrel]

but how much times did they pounce you?

because 40% is a LOT

[vapid pulsar]

2 pounces before 2 pounces after healing

[hexed sorrel]

all bucked yeah?

[vapid pulsar]

Yes of course

[hexed sorrel]

I swear carno can survive 4 back to back bucked pounces

I survived 2 pounces as an 800 KG carno

might have been that bug where you dont heal your bleed unless you stand up and sit back down

which still isnt fixed

[vapid pulsar]

No damage was done to me.

Just bleeding.

[hexed sorrel]

yeah utah pounce doesnt do much damage

even with my pachyI had around 80% health but 0% blood

did you check how fast it was going down? like how much % per second?

normally while sitting it should me like 0.20% per half second or something along those lines

[vapid pulsar]

I just remember sitting and recovering, and then I saw it dropped below 10% and these were 2 screenshots I took.

Look, I’m not one of those 12 y.o salty teenagers, I have no reason to complain for no reason, as per my feedback mentions, I know they want Utah to be something more than just barking Turkeys. But this much bleeding is a joke. I am not a pro carno, I am just an average carno enjoyer, and seeing my bleed not stoping thus I sat down at 40% is insane.

[frail bobcat]

I fought a carno and it died after 6 pounces, so if you play it well you can totally survive two pounces

[vapid pulsar]

Someone needs to learn how to read I bet, they were 2 utahs.

[hasty coyote]

I only have one question: did you buck?

And if you were, did you hold or spam e

[frail bobcat]

And we were 3

[vapid pulsar]

Jesus, how many times do I need to repeat? I do know how to buck and yes I did, the other time it happened I ran into a tree so it falls off.

[frail bobcat]

You ran around a lot?

[vapid pulsar]

Still does not justify the fact how fast my bleeding drained, I was literally 40% of bleeding while I sat down.

[frail bobcat]

If you run around a lot the bleed goes nuts

[vapid pulsar]

Oh thank you for opening my eyes, I did not know that. I will take a note for the future, as I have never played vs Utah.

[hasty coyote]

If I’m correct, bleed doesn’t heal at all when you sprint. So if you were constantly moving, it didn’t start healing to the + until you sat down.

[keen plover]

It does heal

You heal regardless of state

[hasty coyote]

Never mind then

[frail bobcat]

But is waaay slower

A fg carno dies after after 2-3 pounces if it runs a lot

6 if it fights normally

[keen plover]

Also, iirc, food and water is a factor in bleed

[frail bobcat]

Wait what?

Really?

[keen plover]

https://youtu.be/X2a1yK-fxV4

Yeah. You want to generally have as much food and water as possible before a fight

[frail bobcat]

Then it makes sense why carnos are so weak against bleed

They have high hunger drain and if you are a type of player that only drinks when you are low on water then of course you are fucked against utahs

[frail bobcat]

Can you send me the video on dms, I wanna watch it but my wifi here is bad so I want to watch it later?

[keen plover]

• This was ages ago though. Not sure how much it has changed

[keen plover]

👍

I guess a quick way of seeing if it's a factor is going into a test server and giving yourself max water and low water - then get pounced. See where you heal

[frail bobcat]

Imma try that

[hasty coyote]

I’m down to help test that later, I have been meaning to test bleed

[frail bobcat]

Lets say in a week and a half

Im on vacation lol

[hasty coyote]

Sure, all good lol. Just message me when you’re able

[frail bobcat]

I asked my friends if they can test it

Imma tell you the results

When they actually do it

[hexed sorrel]

maybe they should make the bleed value the same for carno but just make it take longer to bleed out so they can exploit more mistakes the utahs do?

[shrewd surge]

I dont get why deino is stunned when launching at a stego while the stego is able to move and attack.

[hasty coyote]

They didn’t lower carno’s blood pool, they just made it drain faster while moving less. So the exact opposite of what you’re saying lol.

[keen plover]

Idk either. Deinos should be able to stun stegos again. Was a good way to get those early hits off and kill stegos in pairs

Wasn't it possible in update 4.5 or am I tripping?

[shrewd surge]

but the problem in my eyes is that deinos get stunned. Why??? If both didnt get stunned, it would be fine. Makes no sense that deino stands still for 2-3 s and cant do anything while stego is able to attack and move. It was the reason why i lost my deino....

[frail bobcat]

@sage flame utah outturns a carno easily and you can just run across river, escape into the forest or jump on rocks to escape them. No idea what you are talking about

[sage flame]

no i understand that but carno is carrying a ton of weight and speed, if your out in center and trying to juke a carno running its very easy for him to get you. When i play carno i also find it very easy to catch and kill a solo utah

[frail bobcat]

Because that utah made mistakes

[sage flame]

dunno i just think its turn when sprinting is very good for the dino it is

[frail bobcat]

Its fucking bad, I can juke a carno without getting hit for 30 seconds straight

[sage flame]

if thats what you think then fair enough

[hollow canyon]

yea juking a Carno is really ez as a Utah, I don't feel particularly threatened if I encounter just one Carno as a Utah. When there's more than 1 then it starts becoming a problem though.

[sage flame]

there's always more than 1 😅

[frail bobcat]

@tough orchid is it supposed to have a second stomach

[tough orchid]

what

[grave veldt]

ima be honest i dont think ive ever vomitted yet last time i vomitted was during U2

[frail bobcat]

Its super easy to avoid vomiting

[grave veldt]

^

[tough orchid]

I'm trying to get all nutrients to 300, its possible as dryo, but i cant as teno

[frail bobcat]

Maybe you cant get it to 300 then

[tough orchid]

yea i see that now

sad, it was fun as dryo

but yea dryo is an easier dino, still thought i could do it as teno but there's something weird with the ui when i keep stuffing at 94%, even if i am really careful, sometimes i overeat, sometimes not

it shows i still have room, suddenly i vomit

if the ui was more precise it would be fine to have longer sickness effects, it doesn|t even pay off to walk 10 minutes to the next salt lick when the sickness only lasts for 20, i just wait it out

[tough orchid]

the issue is it adds some more food after you stopped pressing e, i think

[hollow canyon]

Nah, not really I've ran into single Carnos on multiple occasions

especially on this patch, the most Carnos I've seen at once was 3 and only one of them was an adult

I've seen a pair of fully grown ones too but in general I typically see just one adult Carno at a time

[hexed sorrel]

oh lmao

then why are people complaining this much 💀

[hollow canyon]

because Carno's blood drains faster than that of other animals

[gleaming spruce]

Don't get pounced its the best way to deal with utahs

[hollow canyon]

I mean, the best way to deal with utahs is to play Deino

or Utah for that matter

[hasty coyote]

It drains pretty fast, even when standing still. I saw a clip where single utah bite made a carno with 1 nutrient lose about 5% of its bleed before it healed, and the carno was mostly standing still.

Bleed is very scary in the game already, and carnos leak out much faster, meaning your timer is shorter.

[hexed sorrel]

I remember in update 4 tho carnos were just running around and spamming lmb with no consequences, maybe they should keep the running multiplier but remove the standing?

[hollow canyon]

the running multiplier is and always has been the same

[hasty coyote]

That’s the opposite of what they did from what I remember lmao. I’ll have to check the note again tho

[hollow canyon]

^

[hexed sorrel]

has it?

[hollow canyon]

they didn't touch the running multiplier

[hexed sorrel]

huh.

[hollow canyon]

they only nerfed the standing, walking and trotting multiplier

you bleed at the same rate you always have as Carno

while running

[hexed sorrel]

I swear I remember my friend pouncing me 5 times and I ran til I had 0% stam left and I healed at 50% blood aint no way you can do that now lmao

[hollow canyon]

idk about that that should've never been possible

well at least from the moment they changed Utah to a bleeder back in ~update 3 was it?

[hexed sorrel]

maybe cuz he did it nonstop

[hollow canyon]

Carno's running bleed was not changed

[hexed sorrel]

is there a bleed limit stack?

[hollow canyon]

I can tell you that much

never tested it that in depth

[hexed sorrel]

if there is that mightve been the case

[mossy vector]

@solar lodge salt emote meant for me?

[solar lodge]

for deinos that want to be crocosaurus rex and kill anything on land, even tho they are an aquatic predator

[dusky surge]

i still think deinos should lose to stegos with the way the game is atm

[grave veldt]

stego doesnt need a nerf nor does it need anything really for now

id leave it just as it is until larger creatures come in

it is an apex herbivore and theres not much that needs to be changed for now

deino is also a water apex not a shore apex or land apex so anything when its not swimming its gonna struggle with

[zealous citrus]

Deino is not a fighter on land crocs and gators suck at that

Only deinos i see dying to stegos is those that try to hunt it like deinos is a rex

Besides isnt stego in the same diet category as fish so you basically have no reason to hunt a full adult stego

[grave veldt]

its as simple as this

if u want to hunt an apex land herbivore hunt it with another apex land carnivore

no apex land carnivores in the game so for it is what it is thats about it

[zealous citrus]

Atleast any utah pack with brain cells can take down a steg with bleed

But yeah as time goes on more predators to hunt steg would be released

i mean troodon is near

[grave veldt]

troodon

[dusky surge]

troodon aint hunting steg honestly

[grave veldt]

we still have awhile before anything hunts steg

utah is the only viable candidate for now

id wait for allo and alberto before stego can be reliably killed and have proper threats

[frosty heron]

Islecord still thinks Stego is balanced , damn if devs really take actions on the game balanced based on the players this game is condemned for at least 2 years before they decide to add an apex land carnivore

[slim dragon]

If devs balanced the game around what players ask for Deino would have 10 000 biteforce

[frosty heron]

And that considering that apex carnivore wont be shit

[frosty heron]

Youre being selective buddy, Ive seen people asking for 10000 Deino biteforce the same amount of times as a Pachy player asking for more damage aswell

[slim dragon]

No people have asked for massive deino biteforce increases a lot more times
There was a time where 1 out of 2 suggestions in balance feedback was someone saying deino should have at least 1000 biteforce

[frosty heron]

People doesnt even rewind of the patch notes, while Stego only got buffs (HP, bloodpool, turn radius) the rest of the playables got more severe balance changes

[slim dragon]

I don't think stego was buffed once apart from when they set health to be equal to weight

[frosty heron]

The current status of the game still the same, Stegos bodyguarding and megapacks of herbivores using the playable to make others gameplay straight trash, at this rate I wont have a doubt the game will lose 70% of the activity until a new patch comes in

[frosty heron]

It got buffed on turn radius aswell

Also his food/water values

[dusky surge]

if stego wasn't the way it was we'd have U3 landcrocs again

[mellow zenith]

Not really, since stam cost on alt bite, stam cost on land + speed reduction. Land croc would get rekt by pack of carno i think

[hollow canyon]

it wouldn't they deal next to no damage to it

it WOULD get absolutely destroyed by the high dehydration rate however

[dark current]

Stego should be the only ”apex” on land yes. But stego has no business walking around water not even blinking despite Deinos being active. The waters and shores are Deinos turf.

Stego tail attack speed needs a nerf aswell as the stamina.

Nowadays Deinos are quite limited by thirst rate so they wont be like U3 crocs roaming the lands.

[hollow canyon]

In general with the current roster I think it would be acceptable to just nerf Stego's damage, that's probably the most obvious nerf it could get that wouldn't destroy the playable.

[hollow canyon]

I completely disagree

Nerfing the attack speed and stamina is a really bad way to go about it

[dark current]

Stego attack speed is unreal.

[hollow canyon]

it's slower than normal actually

the standard attack cooldown in the game is 1 second

[dark current]

Any other dinosaur needs to be careful using nonbasic attacks. You can use the tailswipe 21 times

Thats insane.

Deinos alt bite is limited to 10

[golden coral]

People only think about the specific angle, most of stegos attacks aren't that impressive

[hollow canyon]

yea but its normal bite has no limit while dealing the same damage

Stego's bite deals next to no damage

[golden coral]

Sure, the quick jab is stupid, but that's a very limited attack, all the other jabs are rather slow

[dark current]

Nonetheless stego gameplay is close to brainless. You just chill around having nothing to fear of.

And then you call it a ”survival”

[golden coral]

And why are you comparing stegos main attacks, with deinos alt, when deino both has a normal bite doing the same damage, and a lunge attack as a mechanic. I don't think that's a fair comparison, since stego only really has the jab to use.

[dark current]

Compare it into Tenos then

Jab or no jab. Its too forgiving

The hitbox is also so effin weird

Any other dinosaur has to play carefully around stamina

Stego has no such issue

[golden coral]

Except utah packs can kill stegos quite well. And most of the issues with stego is well, a roster of things that shouldn't be going near it. But deino has exactly the same "survival" honestly. You just.. chill in water, eating fish, and occassionally nab a carno or teno or pachy or something, or bully them on the shoreline for a kill they made.

[dark current]

Deinos have other deinos to fear

[hollow canyon]

it's an enormous apex-class herbivore being put in a game with a bunch of small animals for whom it's one of the worst opponents. Honestly Shant would've been more possible to handle than Stego.

[golden coral]

Teno has a multitude of good attacks, and is a really well made critter combat wise. Much better than stego, or deino, or most others.

[dark current]

They enforced cannibalism with the recent dietary change

[golden coral]

And stegos fear other stegos then. :p

[dark current]

No they dont

[hollow canyon]

Dw, I cannibalised Deinos before the recent changes too

[dark current]

It has nothing to do with their diet

[golden coral]

Though stego do need more reasons to dislike joining up in herds

[dark current]

Stego killing another stego is purely killing for sport. Nothing to do with survival

[hollow canyon]

Stego is strong but the game generally isn't being balanced around the current roster

[dark current]

The balance is messy indeed

[hollow canyon]

it's meant to work well when all the animals are in the game

Stego could get all the nerfs you're talking about but that would very likely make it bad when apex-level carnivores are actually in the game

[golden coral]

For now, but it could be, if we gave stegos proper competition and reason, which I'd like to see.

[hollow canyon]

now I personally would nerf its damage

I would however also make it so that when an animal the size of Deino or Stego lands a hit on something smaller and that smaller animal survives that attack - they get knocked down in turn

[dark current]

Either nerf dmg, or attack speed or stamina

Stego has no business going to bully the deinos in water

[hollow canyon]

attack speed is already lower than normal, it shouldn't be nerfed, the stamina was worse at a point and it was just bad back then

[dark current]

Without consequences

[hollow canyon]

furthermore if you were to nerf Stego's stamina it would change absolutely nothing for it in terms of bullying Deinos in the water

[digital oak]

an 8 tonne deino is not dragging a 6 tonne stego into the water.

[golden coral]

Just make the quick jab the same speed as the rest and there you go

Problem solved

[hollow canyon]

Even with 10 attacks it would have enough steam to just put a Deino out of misery and get out

[dark current]

Its not no. But it doesnt mean than a 8ton crocodilian is supposed to evade stegos coming to water just for fun

[hollow canyon]

that sounds like a bad idea imo, I think it would end up being bad again

[dark current]

Im gonna wait until changes. But before then Im gonna steer clear of the game. Its unfun no matter what dino you play

[digital oak]

or another solution, when something is over 4 tonnes, when deino lunges it becomes a tug of war, deino dragging its prey into water or its prey dragging deino onto land

[dark current]

Stego is definitely out of control. Thats for sure.

[hollow canyon]

that was the idea initially before Deino came out

[digital oak]

it's not, utah packs can dominate a stego and not be touched

[hollow canyon]

there were some problems with implementing that though

[dark current]

Some players will disagree but it is what it is

Deinos should be feared around the waters and shores

Same would apply for stego on land

Megapacks being another thing

[digital oak]

it is feared, for anything that isn't a full grown stego.

you can't really stop megapacks though.

[dark current]

Exactly my point

Its another story

[digital oak]

you CAN avoid them now though because a group symbol points them out

[dark current]

Megapacks should be feared aswell

[digital oak]

they are feared

[dark current]

Again. Exactly my point 🙃

[frosty heron]

That wouldnt be the case with the current water drain the crocs have on land

And that neither would justify the current status of the Stego

[golden coral]

How so? It'd just make it impossible to spam down deinos, which would help in that matchup?

[hollow canyon]

It would but having it attack slower could severely impact its other match ups

[golden coral]

Megapacks shouldnt be a thing in the first place.

[hollow canyon]

more so than damage decrease would

[golden coral]

Any matchup in particular you're thinking of, where the quick jab is more vital?

[hollow canyon]

Utah is probably the most important one

you don't really care how much damage you dish out, you oneshot them either way except on tailshots

you do care about how quickly you can recover from the prervious attack and dish out another though

[mossy vector]

homie i was the stego how would that be salt for me

[mossy vector]

fair point, only thing to that is more of the fact that i took on two deinos without lossing alot of health is my thing

[frail bobcat]

Then the deinos were bad

Two good deinos can kill a stego

[mossy vector]

didnt look like it
they baited my swipes and tried to go for my head

surrounded me and everything

i was standing in water aswell

[frail bobcat]

I heard from deino mains there is a strat to kill a stego with one lunging and stunning the stego and the other one going behind so it cant escape

[frail bobcat]

Then its weird

Maybe a few unlucky tailhits

[hollow canyon]

Most Deinos are really bad

[mossy vector]

they stunned me, like 5 times

[hollow canyon]

the fact that they "surrounded you and everything" "baited your swipes" doesn't make them good

[mossy vector]

i actually learned that way deino lunge on ad stego takes ur stam

[hollow canyon]

idk what baiting swipes would even be supposed to accomplish in this fight tbh, it never seemed like a relevant factor in my mind

[mossy vector]

stam burning i take

[hollow canyon]

yea that's useless in a fight between Deino and Stego

you're not burning enough of its stam to where it would be relevant

in my experience every time Deinos try to do some maneuvers like that and think really hard about what they're doing they lose badly

[mossy vector]

most cases i see a stego fall is when deinos overpack

3-4 deinos locking it into spot and blocking its way to dip from that situation

[hollow canyon]

2 Deinos can take a Stego on but there's high risk of one of them dying or Stego just running away

nevertheless I did it consistently in a 2v1 scenario on update 4

I don't play enough Evrima on update 5 to tell if that's how it still works but to my knowledge there haven't been any changes so

2 Deinos should be taking a Stego on relatively easily

well relatively reliably

[mossy vector]

does holding alt on stegos swipe do more than just extending it out further then?

becuase most of my hits where alt swings and harpooning

[hollow canyon]

no, alt shouldn't be increasing the damage on Stego

[mossy vector]

just wondering

[hollow canyon]

I think Deino should do better vs Stego, the match up is a bit too skewed in Stego's favour but I still think Stego should be winning this most of the time

[mossy vector]

they had it all to, lunged a pachy before it got out of their mouth and had more bites on me ebcuase i had to wait for pachy to get out of the way

idk how that pachy got out tho

that was somthing

[hollow canyon]

idk, I wasn't there so I wouldn't be able to say what they did incorrectly but they must've done something wrong for both of them to get clapped

Btw I don't think that alt does anything on stego tbh

[azure hinge]

If the stego isn't completely new to the game no 2 deinos could never kill a stego

3 is possible but very rare stego just runs away while 2 deinos are usually below 40%

But no 2 is impossible

To actually kill a stego before it runs away you need around 5 or 6 full grown deinos

And even then they can usually run away easily if they arnt new

Cause you just kite but this is hypothetical so I will give it the benefit that the guy is a pretty not smart stego

[golden coral]

They could yes, it is not impossible.

[azure hinge]

Yeah if the stego is afk and doesn't attack back

[golden coral]

Needing 5-6 deinos to kill a single stego?.. What are you even thinking..

Two is doable, if you plan it properly

[azure hinge]

Yes cause stego just runs away

No it's not, even close stego will kill both

[golden coral]

It won't, not if you approach correctly

[azure hinge]

You've assuming the stego is a new player robot that just stands still instead of walking forward while spamming tail

No stego will stand still

Idk why you put .01% of the worst stego to ever exist as your justification

[golden coral]

No, I'm "assuming" that the deinos properly commit, position, and use lunge and all. Which would make the movements of stego rather limited and wounded before it can even engage back.

[azure hinge]

No so wrong

[primal harbor]

clay said that is what they did, he got stunned like 5 times

[golden coral]

Well, you're free to believe that I guess.

[azure hinge]

Im not believing that is not what happens

[golden coral]

Considering stego can not move and attack at the same time

[azure hinge]

It's common every one says you need usually 3 deinos to kill a stego

[golden coral]

It might be more usual, but it's still doable with two deinos

[azure hinge]

And even then everyone says 1 or 2 crocs can die in this trade

[primal harbor]

it is but that is a rare situation if you win that

[azure hinge]

80% of the time

This isn't a new conversation

[golden coral]

Not as rare as it seems, and yes, you are risking one deino at least. But if the stego remains to fight, the second one will kill it. So the stego will die.

[primal harbor]

every stego you fight is braindead then

[azure hinge]

I say usually because for some reason people want me to add in the 5-10 % of the time a stego wants to die to a deino swims through deep water to try to pick a fight with 3 deinos

[primal harbor]

because the only time I was able to 2v1 a stego is when they do not move and barley attack while one of us sacrifice to kill it

[golden coral]

Possible I suppose, but I doubt it. Seems more likely to me that most deinos do not understand how to approach the fight with a stego. I keep seeing them go in for a lunge, or bite, then retreat, take massive damage on the way out, and repeat that..

[primal harbor]

well you can tank a stego 1v2 and have 1 deino finish it after the other dies but that is if it is completely standing still and you get every hit in, a lot of stego players do not just stand there

it would make sense if average it would take 3 and 4 would seal the deal if they do not run away in an actual fight

[golden coral]

I've no idea what your stegos are doing, considering they can not move and attack at the same time. So if the stego is retreating up on land, as in running away to gain distance and then fight, you can just ignore it at that point. Or does your stegos for some reason attempt to go into water? Because that would make even less sense.

[primal harbor]

no you just move up a little then attack so it takes a second for deino to get to you as you get an attack in 💀

when a deino is chasing you as stego you move up, hit them, move up, hit them so they aren't able to get as many attacks in

[golden coral]

And this would be why positioning is important.

[primal harbor]

why would positioning be important, 1 be on land and other be in water? cuz the stego is GOING to walk away from the water and would not be going towards your friend up the stream

that is why even when it is multiple deinos stego still has the advantage

[golden coral]

Not the stego, the two deinos I mean. Why you need to lunge and have the other deino in position the moment after as well.

So you lunge, stun, and immediately the other deino lunges to land at the stegos head and start biting/alt biting, while the first one recovers from the lunge, and can then keep biting the stego as well on the body or legs.

You need to take the stego together, so you can both start attacking it, and get one of you to the head/neck.

[primal harbor]

having 2 lunge in the start of the battle would be very beneficial but I still think that stuff is really situational, what time are 2 deinos gonna be in call to plan that, most deino players ik just play solo

[golden coral]

Only one of you lunges the stego, since you get stunned too, just like the stego. The other only uses the lunge to position, since if you lunge from water, you do get some distance. The point for the second deino is to get to the stego head preferably at the same time the first one lunges to stun the stego. Your goal is to quickly overwhelm the stego with damage due to headshot, so even if it does stay within reach, it's vunerable. And since it can only jab while standing still, and only on one side, unless it runs decently far away, you can kind of go after it and try for hits on the legs or body. And if it does run away, congrats, you won, it's no longer bothering you (which seems to be the biggest reason deinos dislike stegos, so if you can shoo it away, you did a good job!)

And yes, you're right, most deinos don't really play in a proper group, which is fair. They do have trust issues, but that also means a solo deino wouldn't be going after a stego at all. Stegos aren't really prey for deinos, much less for a solo one, due to their mechanic.

I did say this approach requires planning and all that, it's not a fight you just go for and handles. And with deinos normally grabbing and drowning, or fighting each other in whatever passes for mirror match combat, I can see why most deinos might not be so good at hunting or dealing with stegos.

Since you require a bit of a different approach than your normal hunting, and probably a bit different from fighting another deino in the water as well.

[primal harbor]

yeah

I forgot, is stego in deinos diet or no?

maybe not now but later I think deino should get some type of bone break, especially if rex can

it would keep things from running away if you want to hunt them

[golden coral]

It is, on the same slot as fish I believe.

[primal harbor]

yeah then I think what I just said should be a thing

cuz big deinos are not able to live off of fish

[golden coral]

Keep in mind you can also lunge stegos up to 80% or something, not sure with the new growth curve but they don't get 4T+ until rather late. So if you have a way to retreat, by all means give it a try if the stego doesn't look fully grown.

[primal harbor]

fair

[golden coral]

It could be a thing, but I'd say it depends on how often interactions happen when we got a full roster

There's probably going to be a few more things under 4T+, plus the others growing at that. And we'll get some more things in the water or around it in the future as well.

[primal harbor]

cuz anything bigger than what it is able to drag underwater should have some type of thing to take it out easier and keep it from running away

either a weaker drag just dragging the leg or bonebreak

to get them into a more favorable position

[golden coral]

Maybe, I think that depends on what they want deino to hunt. If we got a proper tug of war, that'd be good. As well as "doubling" the grabbing and drowning the weight limit if the target is swimming. So you'd be able to drown things up to 8T or maybe a bit more, if they're fully swimming.

[primal harbor]

yeah that would be a good way of doing it

Im just thinking when it comes to a bigger roster

[golden coral]

Of course, we'd probably need a better map and rivers and crossings and so on for that but still.

[primal harbor]

decent sized medium tiers and apexes should not worry as much but should still be afraid of deinos

god I just want there to be a lake in center or something

the bland ass rivers need a change

[golden coral]

Some lakes would be nice yes. Just need a way to get out if a bigger deino comes along and all that.

[primal harbor]

what I am thinking is you know that canyon in the middle of the map, have that go into a lake then let it split from there

[azure hinge]

Yeah the vision from the rivers sucks as a deino too

You feel so segregated from the rest of people because of it

[grave veldt]

That is mainly just a skill issue on the deinos part if they both tanked hits they could’ve killed u although it is difficult

Either way though deino is a stealth ambusher and a water apex

So anything on land it will struggle with no matter how powerful it is

[azure hinge]

but the problem isnt land its the fact stego goes to the water to attack it

[dense wedge]

the real problem is that only stegos can fill up a deino

[azure hinge]

that too

thats a massive issue

also that things like ptera and smaller animals exist that give almost nothing to something like a deino

[dense wedge]

everything else barely does anything and lets not talk about the fact that grown up ones avoid rivers like the plague all im ambushing are juves

[azure hinge]

bad ecosystem for deino entirely

[frail bobcat]

Why?

[dense wedge]

there is nothing to sustain it

[frail bobcat]

Fish?

[azure hinge]

LOL

[dense wedge]

wut?

[frail bobcat]

Other crocs

Literally everything except stego

[azure hinge]

he wasnt even saying go for stegos

[grave veldt]

pretty fine ecosystem for deino honestly

[azure hinge]

having stuff to eat is trying to say it is a problem that there is nothing to eat

[frail bobcat]

Fish?

[azure hinge]

not that they should eat stegos its actually the opposite

[dense wedge]

my dude fishes are doing nothing to adult deinos you need at least 10 of them adult deinos are honestly a rare sight

[frail bobcat]

Then eat other deinos

[dense wedge]

carnos utah tenos pachy dont give enough food

[azure hinge]

utahs are pointless carnos give an okay amount

[dense wedge]

most other deinos you meet are juvies and juvies dont provide enough food adult ones are rare again

[grave veldt]

i have yet to starve as a deino

[azure hinge]

but u dont see many carnos anymore, and theyavoid the water cause they are humans and still have bugs that make deino not be ableto ambush

[grave veldt]

fish are quite easy to find and are plentiful

[azure hinge]

thats not the point though

[dense wedge]

well same as me there are plenty of fish but im barely managing as of now

[frail bobcat]

The ecosystem is fine for deino

[azure hinge]

no one wants to go around eating every elite fish then cannibalize if i wanted to to do that id go back to legacy

[grave veldt]

im genuinely not sure how u are not able to sustain urself

[azure hinge]

no one is saying we cant sustain on fish

[dense wedge]

the ecosystem for deino is non existent

[azure hinge]

plz guys stay with us

[dense wedge]

simply fish provide a small % of hunger and you dont find fishes, elite or not, in bundles you know

[frail bobcat]

In its biome, yes. Things that it can catch, no

[dense wedge]

well nothing comes to the rivers

[grave veldt]

well im able to find them in groups of 2-3 so idk

[frail bobcat]

Those people that need to drink . . .

[grave veldt]

ill take a picture next time i pass by 3

[dense wedge]

they dont come

[azure hinge]

no youre missing the point no one wants to go around eating elite fish as an adult dino

[dense wedge]

i hear their cries but i dont see anyone thirsty

[azure hinge]

it doesnt make sense and isnt fun

[frail bobcat]

Huh? They need to drink, of course they come

[grave veldt]

<@&933486433342222376>

[frail bobcat]

What the fuck

[grave veldt]

i mean yea its not fun but like i think it has to do with the map honestly

people go to shallow areas and avoid major rivers

[dense wedge]

like i said they dont come to drink water, i dont know where they go but they avoid rivers

[azure hinge]

itcould be the map partly yeah but its definitely also the lack of mid sized dinos massively

[frail bobcat]

They drink on spots where the deino wont go

[grave veldt]

what?

adding in mid sized dinos wouldnt change anything they would simply drink from those shallow areas too

[dense wedge]

well thats bad map design really

[grave veldt]

it is objectively a map issue

[dense wedge]

if there were more mid sized dinos at least i wouldnt be so picky

[azure hinge]

well no it means the chance of seeing dinos drink would increase

so youre wrong

[frail bobcat]

People smart enough to avoid spots that are good for deinos to ambush?

[dense wedge]

now only adult stegos and deinos provide enough food

[grave veldt]

the player numbers and roster do not change where people drink

an allosaurus as a mid sized dinosaur will drink from a shallow area just as teno or carno does

[azure hinge]

i mean even in those areas deinos can find ways to ambush people not everyone camps them

and land dinosaurs will fight over the best watering spot away from deinos

so yes the lack of ecosystem makes it bad

[grave veldt]

we have to increase the chance of deino being able to come into contact with drinking dinosaurs not add in random mid sized dinosaurs

[azure hinge]

well yeah thats part of a bad ecosystem

[dense wedge]

the point of mid sized dinos is to make food easier to acquire for adult deinos

[grave veldt]

i agree the eco system is a litte strange right now

[dense wedge]

because the current roster doesnt keep him full unless he eats multiple

[grave veldt]

they said they wanted all smalls then they added carno which is a niche specialized mid tier specific for hunting smalls and they add stego

[azure hinge]

ive made posts about lack of interaction with water before but no one seemed toreally like the idea of increased water interaction with ai spawning closer to it and herbi water food or stuff of the sort

[grave veldt]

either way this is the roster we have so we'll just have to make the best out of it

[frail bobcat]

It rewards the smart deinos that know their spots

[dense wedge]

but you can only ambush one prey at a time after that the spot is ruined

[grave veldt]

i will also say that body food values are crazy which is part of the problem as well

[frail bobcat]

Why?

Just eat up your body and go at it again

[dense wedge]

for instance gj i ambushed that teno and i got 30% but his friend run away and he will be wary of the water surrounding the area

besides there arent any good spots to ambush

[frail bobcat]

@knotty orbit the prey is supposed to have a chance too and bleeding animals are pretty easy to find

[dense wedge]

i traveled twice the river between central and swamps i found a teno alongside stego but teno didnt get close to the water

[frail bobcat]

One teno

There are usually 100 people on servers

[dense wedge]

i guess? However deinos can hunt in very specific locations they cant actively hunt they have to hope a prey gets close

[frail bobcat]

A crocodile

[dense wedge]

well even when the server is close to max i dont find anything

[frail bobcat]

Then try out new spots

[dense wedge]

again the aduklt deino population isnt so big

[frail bobcat]

I meant that is how a crocodile works

[dense wedge]

like which? How do i know where they will go to drink? There quite a lot of spots with water you know

[frail bobcat]

I dont know

But there are a few for sure

[dense wedge]

well there isnt a way to do it mate you just hope food comes close to your spot

i cant follow scents because im slow in land

i cant just spawn food nearby

[grave veldt]

some decent spots to go to are the cross path ways that leads towars the west grasslands/coast

NW u can try as well

[azure hinge]

@frail bobcat so what u want to fix the problem is to decrease the decay of deinos hunger drain?

a gator can go weeks without eating irl

[frail bobcat]

@edgy root are there good ambush spots for deinos because this dude says its random?

[grave veldt]

i wouldnt mind decreasing deinos hunger drain allows for better ambushes if your hunger goes down slowly

i really do think they need to increase food values tho

hopefully the gore update switches that up

[dense wedge]

dude even if there are good ambush spots chances are that people will be wary of them and again i cant know where they will go drink water i just have to be at the right place at the right moment

like ffs there is a pack or herd up ahead i hear their cries, correct place, but they arent coming, bad timing

[frail bobcat]

It sorts out bad deinos from good deinos, which is good

[azure hinge]

i mean rn you just have to eat every ai you see and know the spawn spots if u want to make it easier on yourself

you wont survive by hoping something comes to the water

[azure hinge]

what does

no one dies from hunger as deino

and the ones that would just cannibalize, so no it doesnt really do anything

[frail bobcat]

TheFlyingSun does

And a couple people that complain

[dense wedge]

im not dying from hunger i just dont want to be close to starving 24/7

[azure hinge]

cause they are probably new to the map entirely

why do you want to punish people for not knowing ai spawn points and camping them?

[frail bobcat]

Then go center and yoink the people that are crossing

[azure hinge]

like thats not the point of the game

[dense wedge]

dude i am at the centre all im yoinking are juvies and they arent doing anything to the hunger bar

[azure hinge]

yeah utahs dont give u any food

[frail bobcat]

Maybe it needs a hunger drain nerf then

[azure hinge]

dont even follow utahs not even adults give u food

ur better for hunting ai fish > utah

and most ai fish will spawn near west waterfall just underneath

then also the 2nd waterfalll just underneath it going to central

then also by the water drain all the way west where the river starts there

[frail bobcat]

If you say so

[azure hinge]

those are all big spawn points for ai fish

[hollow canyon]

I don't remember ever having an issue sustaining Deino - mind you, I haven't played it on update 5 so far

[frail bobcat]

Maybe suggest it in #general-feedback

[hollow canyon]

has its hunger rate been tinkered with or something?

[azure hinge]

nope

[hollow canyon]

Then idk what the issue is

[grave veldt]

nope sustaining it is not an issue

[azure hinge]

the issue is people dont like killing ai fish

[hollow canyon]

I will grow one and see how hard it is to keep it well fed but I expect myself to be running around on full food most the time as I usually do with Deino

[azure hinge]

well if u do it try and do it without eating ai fish

[hollow canyon]

why in the world would I not eat AI fish?

What kind of absurd idea is that?

[azure hinge]

because people when they get full grown want to eat something that is a bigger meal rather than just killing ai fish and afking

[hollow canyon]

I don't eat AI fish that much when fully grown, I was speaking more so about growing

I thought you wanted me to grow eating just other players and that's not very realistic

[azure hinge]

o no not really growing

[hollow canyon]

living as a full adult without fish... idk, never tried completely avoiding fish but I generally eat mainly other Deinos

[azure hinge]

just saying there is a lack diet per say for deino to be sustained besides eating ai fish

[dense wedge]

nah we are talking about when you are 100% to keep your hunger full you need either an adult stego or deino or multiple smaller dinos

[hollow canyon]

I play deino just to kill other Deinos

[azure hinge]

LOL

thats boring

thats free kills basically killing ai fish

[hollow canyon]

Idc to even go for terrestrial animals most of the time, if I have the choice of killing a Tenonto and another Deino I will go after Deino 10/10 times

[dense wedge]

i mean duh deino will full you unlike a teno

[hollow canyon]

food values are kind of scuffed for carnivores in general tbh but

with Deino specifically I just don't see why anyone would even go for drinks where Deinos are, interacting with them is just atrocious all around

you either clap a Deino if you're a stego or you effectively die in a split second

Deino's just an atrociously designed playable all around

anything that you win against by avoiding it and not interacting with it as most of the roster is just a bad playable

[azure hinge]

thats kind of what we were saying.......

[dense wedge]

he got released too early

[azure hinge]

just reworded everything we said

[hollow canyon]

yea well I don't disagree with that

oh yea Deino was released waaay too early

[dense wedge]

no tug of war only stego can keep him at bay yet a deino cant really hunt him

[hollow canyon]

I said it when they were working on it back in U3

to be fair - even if tug of war was in the game Deino likely wouldn't be doing too well vs Stego

[dense wedge]

the rest of the roster is too small to stand up to him anmd they cant really sustain him unless there are 30+ drinking water

[hollow canyon]

I'd genuinely just rework this animal back to what it was meant to be

a mid tier carnivore with a tug-o-war mechanic and a reasonably mobility on land

[dense wedge]

i would simply use ai dinos, larger ones to make his gameplay slightly better instead of eating only fish and occasionalyl deinos

[hollow canyon]

old 5-6t Deino would've been so much better than this fat slug

[azure hinge]

i thought that they intended deino to be an apex from the start?

[hollow canyon]

no

old roadmap had it labeled as a medium carnivore

it was meant to be a medium carnivore for a long long time

until the community started screeching that they want the biggererer, fatterer Deinosuchus

and we ended up with this useless piece of garbage

with a low biteforce, atrocious mobility

its size literally working against it with how it is designed

as it limits where it can attack from

since its body is so fat it has less areas where it can hide and ambush people from

just a horrible design all around

[azure hinge]

i mean it got nerfed like 3 times before it turned into garbage; before it was land tank that just killed everything that got close

[hollow canyon]

it got nerfed like once

where they gutted its land speed and gave it the alt bite cost

Idk if the dehydration rate was another nerf or if it happened some other time

just noticed it being really fast some time in update 4

or 4.5

buff its speed, decrease its weight and hp, buff its water-time and force it to go on land and it would immediately become a much more interesting animal that actually has more effect on the game than just "oh, there's water there, I'd better go somewhere else because that spot is too deep and I can lose all my progress if there is a Deino sitting there"

[dense wedge]

tbf thats his appeal, to be an apex water predator

[hollow canyon]

it's not going to be one

it's not meant to be one

[solar lodge]

i feel like once a mid carnivore gets added that can take on stego all complains about deino will vanish

[dense wedge]

but he is? He literally fed on dinos

[dense wedge]

well remind me in 10 years from now!

[hollow canyon]

it's only an "apex" because it's by far the largest carnivore in the game

it also gets clapped by Stego as it was said it would be

[dense wedge]

its apex because there isnt anything (well apart spino) to contest in water

[hollow canyon]

the devs have also outright stated that Deino's best choice against Spino is to swim away from it and do so fast

[solar lodge]

btw deino is not an apex ppl need to accept that

[hollow canyon]

Spinosaurus is meant to be the water apex

[dense wedge]

duh mate like i said apart spino

[hollow canyon]

Deino is an aquatic small game hunter that punches down and oneshots animals much smaller than itself

[dense wedge]

he isnt small game hunter dude

he is feeds on mid sized dinos

[hollow canyon]

mid sized dinos are all much smaller than him so yea that makes it a small game hunter - it hunts things significantly smaller than itself, it punches down, it doesn't try to go after something its own size

I mean it can try but it trying that is how you get all the people screaming about losing their Deinos to a Stego

old Deinosuchus was meant to be quite a bit smaller than the current one, its size was increased some 3-4 months before the release of update 3 iirc

[dense wedge]

My dude deino fed on dinos the sized of parasaurolophosaurus (i hope i spelled it right)

[hollow canyon]

There is no parasaurolophus in the current game and when it gets added - it might just be too large for Deino to go after

Deino irl is irrelevant to Deino in the game

idk why you're even bringing it up

[dense wedge]

ofc there isnt, im just saying that he isnt meant to feed upon only smaller dinos

[hollow canyon]

it IS meant to feed only on smaller Deinos

[dense wedge]

based on what dude?

[hollow canyon]

it can't kill something larger than itself or its own size

based on its mechanics?

[dense wedge]

IN GAME OFC HE CANT ITS A VIDEO GAME

[hollow canyon]

Yes, and it's the game's balance feedback channel

[dense wedge]

but since devs try to somewhat recreate dinos that once existed

[hollow canyon]

no?

[dense wedge]

like i said SOMEWHAT

[hollow canyon]

They do the most random things ever with their designs in this game

that's just your interpretation

they do with those animals whatever they feel makes sense for them and their vision

[dense wedge]

whatever mate, deal with it deino hunted larger dinos and this iteration is meant to hunt larger dinos than utah

[azure hinge]

this conversation got real weird

[hollow canyon]

I don't think you're exactly grasping what I'm saying

[solar lodge]

in the future they might increase it's grab weight to let it prey on more dinos but as it stand if any dino is above 4tons it can't be drowned

[hollow canyon]

I'm saying that Deinosuchus in the game is meant to hunt animals SMALLER than itself, it can't grab anything larger than half its own size

it's literally a small game hunter by that very definition it performs awfully against animals its own size

Stego butchers it in a 1v1

[azure hinge]

its however the devs want to make deino

why do u say its a small game hunter

[hollow canyon]

it hunts things smaller than itself

it punches down

[azure hinge]

yeah cause currently it is the largest animal by far

[hollow canyon]

it does woefully against animals even its own size much less larger ones

it performs awfully even against Stegosaurus which isn't even quite that large

[grave veldt]

smaller deino would be a lot better ngl

[azure hinge]

the only thing around equal is a stego which is an ungodly strong dinosaur that could take on t rex probably with its kit

[hollow canyon]

how do you think it would do against a 10t or however big Spinosaurus or a Triceratops?

[azure hinge]

stego is large

its almost the same size as a deino

[hollow canyon]

Stego is still smaller than it unlike apexes-proper

[dense wedge]

yes in the current stay he is by definition meant to hunt smaller dinos however its wrong for all intent and purposes and is made even more infuriating when you realised how soon they released it

[grave veldt]

imagine deino trying take on trike

[hollow canyon]

^

[grave veldt]

6 tons deino is a much better fit for the animal i thought we were getting that but we didnt

[hollow canyon]

literally imagine what would happen there, Deino would get absolutely obliterated

[grave veldt]

trike is quite possibly the worst target possible as its main area of attack is directly pointed at u while its drinking

[hollow canyon]

Stego is ALMOST the same size as Deino yet its smaller and it's still completely and absolutely outside of Deino's range

[dense wedge]

i dont want him to hunt trikes i dont expect him to hunt trikes

[hollow canyon]

it's not even particularly large for an apex and it drags Deino through the mad

[azure hinge]

thats cause they nerfed deino to the ground cause for whatever reason they didnt want him to be strong

im so confused what you are trying to say other than deino shouldnt be a big dino

but it is a big dino so what youre saying isnt happening

[dense wedge]

yeah thats because they gave superior attack to stego and also unlike deino he doesnt have to expose his head to attack

[frail bobcat]

Some will do it and then complain when they cant

[azure hinge]

they wont go back on everything they did to just make it smaller for only you

[hollow canyon]

Stego wins against Deino specifically since update 3.75 when they tinkered with the locational damage and increased the hp pools of both

prior to that you could clap Stegos as Deino

I've done it myself multiple times

[azure hinge]

yes

[hollow canyon]

but that wasn't intentional

the devs said before Deino was even released that Stego was meant to have the upper hand against it

[grave veldt]

quite frankly mid tier packs should be stegos main weakness

[azure hinge]

i mean what really killed deino was the alt attack stam drain

ruins it for any fighting on the equal weight

[grave veldt]

even if alt attack costed no stam right now stego would still win easily

[solar lodge]

what kills deino is ppl trying to hunt on land with an aquatic predator

[azure hinge]

i mean it would still win but it wouldnt win as bad 100% not as bad as it does now

[dense wedge]

yeah its almost as if no one comes to rivers to ambush and drown them

[azure hinge]

@solar lodge thats not what anyone here is talking about

plz troll someplace else

[grave veldt]

i mean maybe but alt attack costing no stam would make it even more unkillable then it already is

only stego can feasibly kill an adult deino

[solar lodge]

deinos can survive just fine they dont need a size increase

[hollow canyon]

yea cause noe one is insane enough to risk their whole progress be lost to a single right click, stamina drain on alt bite is also irrelevant, it's literally just the increased hp pools of both and the changes to hitboxes

[azure hinge]

i mean im not saying full on no stam alt attack

[hollow canyon]

if neither of those changes were introduced Deino would still be clapping Stegos

[azure hinge]

i just said its a crazy amountof stam drain that makes it hard to fight anything that might require that type of fighting

[hollow canyon]

I agree that the stam cost on the alt bite is too high btw

I just don't think it would help Deino vs Stego

[azure hinge]

yeah stego would still win

[grave veldt]

alt attack costing stam is perfectly fine i just wished deino was a bit smaller around 6 tons, had ok land speed and the 500 dmg bite would actually work a lot better for it

[hollow canyon]

Just give us Deinosuchus rugosus that we were supposed to get, a much healthier animal for the roster and one that the 500N bite would actually make sense for

[grave veldt]

^

[azure hinge]

i mean idk i doubt they will change its weight at this point, i think they just are putting deino on back burner while they work on everything else

it just sucks for anyone playing evrima

[hollow canyon]

they could absolutely change its weight

[azure hinge]

im saying i doubt they will

[hollow canyon]

they've changed weights and sizes of animals before

[azure hinge]

im sure more people would want it bigger than you think

the game isnt just us 4 people

[hollow canyon]

I don't doubt that but the devs don't really care what most people want

they've made that clear on multiple times

[dense wedge]

yeah true about that

[azure hinge]

i think they made it big because people wanted it

[hollow canyon]

yes they did

that was hyping people up when the animal was about to be released

[azure hinge]

and honestly they just have a lot on their plate

[hollow canyon]

it's already released - its size is now not that relevant

[azure hinge]

and then a lot of voices and you cant accommodate them all

[solar lodge]

gore might make deino life easier who knows

[hollow canyon]

I mean, don't get me wrong - I don't care all that much whether they make it smaller or not, I think it would be healthier for the game if it was as they first intended it to be but it doesn't impact the game to a large extent as far as I'm concerned

[azure hinge]

yeah i mean there is a lot to coem thats why i said they just have deino on back burner right now it seems like

[hollow canyon]

it's just bizarre that the current Deinos have to bite one another that many times, it's absolutely untouchable to every animal in the game that isn't a Stego or another Deino, just all around a bizarre design, a smaller crocodillian would've been a much better fit

[azure hinge]

they nerfed it to get rid of land gators because too many people complained and then kind of just left it

yeah it is weird

[hollow canyon]

true they did nerf it to get it back into water which is a really bad move all around if you ask me

Deino SHOULD be on land

not all the time but every now and then

it should be encouraged to go into the areas where it can be threatened just like the terrestrial animals have to go into its environment every now and then

it also shouldn't be absolute fodder there

[azure hinge]

i mean you know they stopped thinking about deino when they put turtle on its diet but cant survive outside of fresh water long enough to eat a turtle

[hollow canyon]

I'd personally probably prefer if Stego was made slower and had a lower run-time while Deino ended up faster and with a higher stamina pool

e.g. Deino back up to 24.4km/h

Stego down to 20km/h

[azure hinge]

yeah stego always seemed a little fast to me

[hollow canyon]

make Deino faster, decrease its water drain, give it more stamina

[azure hinge]

idk deino though

[hollow canyon]

force it to travel between different water sources

[azure hinge]

no idea what direction to really go with him cause he gets too on land again

[hollow canyon]

was meant to be faster

[azure hinge]

and then people will freak out all over again

[hollow canyon]

not an issue

Deino should HAVE TO go on land

[azure hinge]

yeah but they nerfed him specifically to get him off land

[hollow canyon]

rivers should be gone, or at least they shouldn't lead from one body of water to another, most of the bodies of water should be lone-standing and Deino should have to travel on land between them

[azure hinge]

no one wanted land gator thats why they did it

[hollow canyon]

being a 5-6t croc it could put up a hell of a fight against anything

[azure hinge]

i mean i agree i hate the river channel system

[hollow canyon]

people have bad taste, idk what else to say

[solar lodge]

the thing is they hardly get a middle ground, once deino were on land killing everthing even on open plains now they are doomed out of water, seems they can only go on extremes

[grave veldt]

Land gator right now isn’t good because deino has 8 hp

[hollow canyon]

they weren't killing everything on land, they were strong, absurdly strong but

I think if they were somewhat nerfed they'd be very much killable

[grave veldt]

Smaller deino wouldn’t have such hp to just tank anything

[hollow canyon]

well it would still a hell of a health pool

and with the low biteforces it would be REALLY hard to kill

but with enough harassment from smaller animals

[grave veldt]

It would of course but at least it would actually have some threat to it

[hollow canyon]

you could kill it since it can't just do a 180 and get back into the water 20 yards behind it

[solar lodge]

a great buff to deino would be able to grab things it's own weight if the dinosaur is swimming

i mean with no land to hold on to you can get dragged really easy but idk how hard that is to code

[frail bobcat]

That should be a tug of war thingy then

[solar lodge]

how would tug of war work i have no idea, is it like button mashing or anything like that?

[frail bobcat]

Dunno

[hollow canyon]

@wet sleet The issue you're mentioning there basically boils down to the hunger pool remaining constant throughout the entire growth. That isn't how it worked in legacy and it was for a good reason. Fully grown animals should worry about hunger much less than those that are just growing up.

[wet sleet]

Yes, it's basically a main source of afk growth right now. Hunger doesn't technically stay constant though, because you fill up quicker. I am not sure how it is actually implemented but there are fixes for both a amount/capacity based system and a input/drain based one.

[hollow canyon]

what changes is how much food you have to intake

it drops just as fast at every point though from what I've noticed

so basically e.g. a fresh spawn Carno has to eat only some 50kg of meat that lasts it 45 minutes, meanwhile a fully grown Carno has to eat some 2t that last it... also 45 minutes

that's more or less how it works right now

[wet sleet]

Which means the hunger system is incomplete and lacks crucial elements that legacy had.

[hollow canyon]

yea, that's pretty much true, unfortunately fixing this requires some serious work with the numbers

[wet sleet]

It shouldn't be that hard. You could either increase both capacity and drain as you grow or simply tax the player on every growth step.

[hollow canyon]

it isn't

very many things in terms of numbers aren't hard

and yet...

[wet sleet]

The hard part is picking the right numbers.

[hasty coyote]

I really hope they find a good balance between current hunger and never needing to worry about hunger.

The main thing I want is more competition (especially with herbivores), but not to the extent that missing out on one body/fruit is a death sentence.

[hollow canyon]

yes that's the "hard" part but it really only means that you have to calculate how they will work every time you set them up, if you just throw them based on "I feel that should be alright" then well, we get ST diets where you could never effectively keep a perfect diet up or the infinite stamina juveniles

[wet sleet]

I think the adult Utah has a decent balance.

[hollow canyon]

or whatever other example of Evrima playing fast and loose with the numbers to the detriment of the balance

and design

[hasty coyote]

in food or in general?

[wet sleet]

In terms of food supply. You need to worry about feeding yourself (unlike herbivores) but don't have to stress about it like Carno.

60 minutes seems like a good hunger time for Utah and the input from food doesn't feel bad either.

[hasty coyote]

havent played many carnis often, so I cant really say. But all I know is that there are a lot of people complaining of starving to death, especially carnos

[wet sleet]

Carno is 4 times the size of Utah but only has 45 minutes. You got notably less time to find notably more food. Which doesn't leave much time for other things.

[hasty coyote]

however, idk if this is just people being bad, ai not respawning correctly, or an actual issue

[hasty coyote]

ouch yeah, especially since it mostly hunts much smaller things than itself. However, I can say that I havent seen many carno megapacks, so thats good at least.

[wet sleet]

I think they should use Kleibers law for hunger drain (with capacity being proportional to your mass). This way Carno would require ~3 times the food per minute but able to store ~4 times the food compared to Utah. Which gives it more time (~85 minutes).

It also scales nicely to other animals (unsurprisingly, as it is a model for real animals) like a 9t Rex requiring ~9.5 times the food of a Utah with just over 2h of hunger time. Those longer hunger times would allow you to actually look for the increased amount of food you require without simply starving from bad luck.

[hasty coyote]

thats a pretty interesting idea, not sure how it would work in practice tho. But hey, we are in beta and theres stress testing for a reason

[verbal owl]

@golden coral why you put a cross on the balance feedback about utah pounce ? i genuinely wonder

[wet sleet]

And back to juvie growth: Hunger drain actually is significantly faster for hatchlings, so the system is probably not even incomplete just lacks the proper parameters/curve.

[golden coral]

Because I believe that bucking should be the primary and most effective "counter" to a pounce. And as such, in pretty much all cases, a utah should be off the moment the target starts bucking, not have time to inflict bleed before getting off. Way I see it, you would want to first drain the targets stam with clever plays, before pouncing (in the case of it being a target you can not pin). I firmly believe that utahs should be harassing a target down before pouncing by baiting or otherwise making the target use stam, or wear it down over time by forcing it to repeatedly buck (all of which does require at least a partner, if not a pack, depending on the size of the target).

Quick question, does pachy have one or two slots?

[verbal owl]

Yeh but you're making shortcuts rn ... I also think utah shouldn't remain on target for too long, but at 100% stamina cost makes no sense ... You don't drain 100% stamina of a hunter in less than 2 sec XD You can hurt it/make it fall perhaps, not exhaust it

[verbal owl]

idk tbh

[hasty coyote]

I was about to talk to you about that too lol: making utah have a longer pounce means it deals even more bleed to a pachy.

I am actively trying to find someone else to test the numbers 100%, but last time i gout pounced I immediately hid and stood still and crouched. That dealt basically exactly 30% of my bleed. So a single pounce does that at minimum. another time, i got pounced and was running into the forest for a good min or 2 then sat in a bush, that dealt 55% of my bleed.

So, roughly, a single pounce does almost 1/2 of pachy's bleed. That means a single pounce cripples pachy's ability to fight back and puts it on the timer. Meanwhile pachy only deals about 1/5 of utahs hp with a charged ram, and has to hope to get a leg break to see the same effectiveness. Or it can alt attack for even less damage than utah's bite (60 vs 65).

[hasty coyote]

2

[golden coral]

If it has two, then I would argue that the ideal is to get both of you on before it can react, that could and should add up for buck, both costing the target more, and maybe make it drain a bit slower for the utah, so it rewards a pair or pack that plans out their hunt and attack with some strategy and tactic behind it.

[hasty coyote]

a double pounce on pachy is instant death

[golden coral]

I'd like to see utahs be more rewarded for well, being the entire group, rather than taking turns one at a time.

[verbal owl]

Alright, then every parameters are too extreme regarding ponce on pachy : it should inflict less bleed/or less quickly as well, but the cost of stamina on the utah side is just non sense i'm sorry

[golden coral]

Not sure what you mean with "making shortcuts"? You asked me why, and I tried to explain. To me bucking should no doubt be the most effective tactic vs the pounce itself, rather than using terrain of some sort (using terrain is fine to cut off attack vectors and similar, to counter numbers, but I disagree that it should be a "pounce counter", except maybe if you do the whole run at full speed to knock something off (and you should have to be running, not just rubbing the utah off by hugging a tree or rock).

[hasty coyote]

the more utahs pouncing something at once multiplies the damage iirc. so 2 utahs pouncing does like 3x the damage and 3 does 5x (these are not the actual numbers and i havent tested it)

[azure crescent]

Pounce a pachy for atleast 3 secs: dead pachy

[verbal owl]

yeh sure, utah is meant to pack hunt, it should be (imo) its biggest strength

[golden coral]

Sounds reasonable, well, maybe not the numbers per say, but the concept should be like that. Make it less effective to take turns, and more effective if you get that first proper ambush, especially if you can follow that up with another similar one (such as backing off, or otherwise tricking the prey into lowering it's guard again).

[verbal owl]

everything else put apart, that sounds like a nice thing

[golden coral]

Not just pack hunt, my main point there is the "united" attack, so it's not just about numbers. It could even be a contrast to troodons all "taking turns" to keep the venom stacked and rising, compared with utahs doing a coordinated pounce for massive bleed effect in one go.

[hasty coyote]

I would be fine with that, but bucking and pouncing applies the same to all animals. so unless you buff pachy's bloodpool specifically, its not really viable.

Personally: I would just give pachy more damage on alt attack or make headslam a "finisher" of sorts. That way the matchup is generally based on who hits their ability first.

[azure crescent]

How much damage does alt swing do again?

[hasty coyote]

60, less than utah's bite

[verbal owl]

Not sure about that, alt attack is already really effective on utah : 1 alt, then 1 ram and utah is done as well

It just sounds like utah and pachy is 50/50 and a quick fight

[azure crescent]

Also i mostly enjoy this idea, but i don’t think that pachy vs utah should go down to who hits their ability first. It should be down to whether the pachy is quick enough to get a good ram and headslam as a finisher on the utah, or if the utah is agile enough to either get an opening and pounce it or if its persistent enough to bite it to death.

[verbal owl]

I get your point here too

[azure crescent]

Utah vs pachy should be like 70% pachy and 30% utah if both players have equal skill

[golden coral]

Sounds okay for 1v1, especially if two utahs can shred a pachy rather efficiently. If you see one utah, you should always wonder where the rest of the pack is honestly.

[azure crescent]

Indeed, but for 1v1 the utah should be the one worried

[golden coral]

We need a bit more of the whole JP attack from the raptor you didn't even consider were there in the first place!

And we need a better roster for the utahs really. Not ideal when everything except dryo is meant to be a nightmare for utahs to go up against.

[hasty coyote]

the thing is, that utah is only done from that if its alone and not desperate. not to mention 3 utahs can almost face tank you because pachy lacks the damage and stam to kill them all, 2 can bait a few attacks then just go in and win. Or just pounce pachy once and completely screw it from fighting back effectively.

Plus, lets take both their attacks at face value
Utah: deals roughly half the hp and forces the pachy to limit movement
Pachy: deals 1/5th of the hp and forces the utah to limit movement (or maybe a blind if they are lucky)

[verbal owl]

equal skills mean (among other things) that both can't bait each other, so there is no winner in that scenario ^^"
But if player base is more likely to play utah as a pack than pachy as a pack, then yeh i agree on that balance (eventhough60-40 would work as well)

[verbal owl]

agree on that, I love playing utah, but every dino rn (except deino really) can't defeat a decent utah pack (maybe decent teno pack)

[golden coral]

If we look at things, then carnis do tend to be more popular, so it's probably more likely to find utah groups than pachy groups. At least unless pachy goes back to being great for hunting (because since when do anyone play herbi to well, be a herbi in this game).

[hasty coyote]

Essentially, what I'm getting at is that pachy lacks the damage that utah has, so its in a disadvantage in a fight it should have an advantage. However, I want this damage pachy lacks to go to something other than ram

[verbal owl]

yeh i hear you, but on a 1V1 perspective the alt attack is on the right place i believe, just enough to stop a fight efficiently

[hasty coyote]

in a 1v1, it does its job fine. but in a 1v2, then you're in a heavy disadvantage. and a 1v3 is just death.

[verbal owl]

what you forget here tho is that pachy limits movement at a higher cost if breaks + utah needs to face preys all the time to feed

[verbal owl]

should it have an advantage in a 1v3 tho ^^ ?

[golden coral]

Hm? Did you mean it the other way around? Or am I misunderstanding. I was thinking utah needs some stuff like galli, maia, diablo, and so on. Animals that are less about "I will beat you up" like pachy is meant to do or just.. well, ideally stegos would be pretty untouchable due to their tail reach and all that, and then you got carno who's the critter meant to hunt utah and pachy sized animals and should be one of their main threats. And tenos are also quite the brawler, with a good assortments of attacks to fight back against things their size. And oh yes, deino that's untouchable to anything but another deino or stego in specific locations. So utahs could do with something that isn't really meant to beat them up.

If there's two utahs, a solo pachy should have the disadvantage I think, if there's three utahs, the pachy should pretty much die, though it might be able to take one utah with it.

[hasty coyote]

utah also has the higher agility and movement to compensate. Pachy has a hard time dodging something so it needs to be rewarded for hitting its attacks more. Meanwhile utah has the ability to juke out pachy's attacks (which have a decent amount of end-lag) and counter them with a pounce or bite.

[verbal owl]

I actually meant it this way ^^ solo utah is ok, but utah __pack __currently is really strong against pretty much everything but deinos

[hasty coyote]

no, but it should at least have a chance to win if it can abuse the terrain correctly.

it literally lacks the stamina to kill 3. iirc, you get 15 rams with full stam, exactly enough to kill all 3. But you're not going to be able to hit every ram without moving. and a single pounce cripples your stam.

[golden coral]

Ah, well yes, that is true. Which is weird, but it's probably because currently things aren't really balanced (mostly cause utah pounce finally works, but there's no balance adjustments from there, despite there being balancing done before to help the utahs out when pounce did not work). But true, utahs are really good right now, in some ways better than they should be considering the roster. If you think on some of the ones I mentioned, I do wonder how they'll hold up against current utah (most likely not good at all, since they are all more vunerable in general to things like utah).

[golden coral]

I don't know honestly. Sure, if you do disappear into the forest and make it dangerous for the utahs to follow due to lack of proper visuals on you and all that, but honestly, three utahs should pretty much mean death for the pachy. Three utahs is where it should start to be okay to take on a teno or carno, who are both tougher than the pachy, and both capable of fighting back quite well (well, teno at least, carno slightly less so).

[hasty coyote]

by "abuse terrain" I mean like on a 1-way-on rock or a cliff face that utahs will die if the pounce. Or there is just a massive skill issue for the utahs. I want it to be possible, but most the time you die. Rn its literally not possible unless utah let you run and get stam then come back.

[verbal owl]

Yeh cuz it's 1-3 hits away from death ^^ it better has high agility. Pachy shouldn't bet on agility but strength (against utah), which is something it does really well i believe.

• pachy does instant damage at stamina cost whereas utah needs time on top of that to match the same amount of damage. And in a hunt, or in the game in general, the longer you take, the more dangerous it is (backups coming, other predators, etc.)

[grave veldt]

Takes 5 charged rams to kill a Utah right

[hasty coyote]

to the body, yes

[grave veldt]

That’s quite a bit ngl

[hasty coyote]

or 8 alt attacks

[grave veldt]

Seems pretty high for a Utah honestly

[verbal owl]

yeh pounce fix changed the game ^^
They usually stick near to a cliff, on top of a rock, or next to a tree/rock (or if 2 or more, they just stay next to each other), it is sometimes enough to survive, but those hunts looks ugly af imo

[hasty coyote]

its more that pachy lacks the damage to deal with utahs effectively, especially when utahs can kill it quickly

[grave veldt]

^ yea I agree with this

[verbal owl]

that is not a matter of balance then ^^

that was nice talk anyway, cya for the next one maybe :p

[hasty coyote]

Pachy's "instant damage" is about the same as utah's pounce, and utah's bleed makes it deal even more over time. The issue with that is that pachy has literally no advantage other than fractures existing (which I do agree, can mean quite a bit): less speed, less agility, less damage, and essentially tied on hp and stam.

well cya then

[verbal owl]

then that's a good point of balance here, maybe pounce instant damage should be reduced to match pachy's instant damage over time , and the point would be "how much time of bleed ?"
Anyway cya

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Pachy should be having much of a chance of dealing with 3-4 Utahs that just sounds insane

if there's that many Utah - you'd better avoid them, you have no right of winning that fight tbh

[hasty coyote]

to me, 3 would require the utahs to have a skill issue or pachy to have VERY favorable terrain that the utahs don't know how to deal with, so like 90-95% utahs win. 4 is just death tho. I was mainly saying that because pachy lacks damage to effectively deal with utahs, so buffing its damage would make killing 3 a possibility, since rn you would not have enough stam to kill all them, so they can just face tank you.

[hollow canyon]

No I'm saying that if 3 Utahs struggle with a single Pachy that should mean that either they are playing blindfolded or there's some issue with balance. Pachy should not be taking down 3 Utahs.

Just like Tenonto should not be taking down 3 Carnos

if you're that badly outnumbered you should be just dying

[hasty coyote]

yeah, your "average" group of 3 utahs should not struggle with a pachy, if they hit a pounce, the pachy is screwed unless it manages to escape somehow

[keen plover]

I agree that it takes way too many hits to kill a utah. Although pachy in a good area can defend itself from 2-3 utahs easy.

Issue is how irrelevant body fractures are. That's the main fracture you'll deal to a utah - yet they can still fight you and keep you up. Yes 2x stam cost, but they don't really stop things from fighting 🤔

Fish is bugged iirc. You are actively looking for ripples?

You could also go to the beach and find AI there

Or scavenge off kills around center

[hasty coyote]

or go to the swamp and trash pit for frogs

you have plenty of options for food: skimming under flying fish to catch them, hnting frogs, hunting chickens/rabbits (i cant remember which is on their diet), scavenging player bodies, or just heading to the coast and eating the seaturtles.

well most of those are not on the diet of other carnivores, and ptera can hunt things, you just need to know where to look. Plus, thats like saying "why play anything else other than a rex because its bigger and stronger?" Ptera has very unique gameplay with the ability to fly, hunt small ai and babies, and you can go snatch hatchlings and 1-shot them.

You said you don't know why people play ptera, so i'm just giving you lots of options for stuff to do that people enjoy. If you dislike ptera, then don't play it

sorry, my mistake then, still doesnt change what I said much

don't know where all their messages went, but now i look crazy lol

[fringe surge]

Maybe make bites universally take stamina

[dusky surge]

i dont think thats a very good idea

[fringe surge]

Why?

I'm just spitballing but I think it could work

If you run out of stamina in the first place you're already fucked, a small cost won't effect good players much, but would make people take stamina management more serious

[dusky surge]

bites are a universal attack and i think making them take stam will make them quite clunky and annoying. Honestly, I'd RATHER have body fractures make bites take stam

The bite is the last tool of defence when you're out of stam

[fringe surge]

Oh that's a good idea yeah

[fringe surge]

Maybe 0 stamina bite does reduced damage?

[dusky surge]

ehhh

that just sounds lame tho

[fringe surge]

Yeah but bite centric playables are kind of lame tm

*atm

Carno vs carno is just bite spam if one doesnt charge the other

Same for utah but pounce makes it more fun

And deino......... we don't talk about that.

Ptera PVP is rare but weirdly fun

If you want carnivores to have more interesting gameplay styles then I think making bite not the optimal choice in most situations should be considered

In real life, biting isn't the optimal choice all the time.

[keen plover]

Carno would be out of stam quickly if bite costed stam though

[fringe surge]

I'm picturing really low cost though

Enough to make you manage your stamina more

[keen plover]

Carno already manages stam tbf.

Charge takes a bit of stam

also if a carno is low on stam, it's kind of screwed. It already has garbo total stam

Nothing wrong with lmb fighting imo anyway

You could give carno some other attack to make fights interesting instead. Some 4th attack or replace its terrible alt attack

[verbal owl]

carno alt attack could grab the prey and act like a pounce. It'd be way more interesting than the current one (i never get to use it)

[dusky surge]

i dont think carno needs to act like a brawler or grappler tho

[somber sphinx]

A grab attack like a latch would fit better for brawlers like cera, Alberto and so on

[verbal owl]

idk, but it feels like an attack is missing (charge attack is really weird imo even though I think it should benefit from its running ability to make alt attack)

[stray venture]

I think carno attack wise is fine. Yeah its simple but is that a bad thing? Its a good starter dino much like how utah was in legacy. While I agree it could seek some more improvements there is not really anything else you can add without reworking it. It just uses its speed to ram something then bite the shit out of it and honestly im okay with that. There are bigger fish to fry anyway when it comes to balance and things that need more attention to their kits like dryo, utah and deino to some extent.

[verbal owl]

yeh, imo it's not about balance, just how fun it can be. But i'm probably looking for another type of dino gameplay anyway that's why i don't talk much about carno, it's simply not for me i guess

[dusky surge]

idk, i feel carno should be simple honestly (also giving it too much combat drives it well into brawler territory)

[slim dragon]

Alt attack (or alt RMB) being a headbutt with low damage and low fractures but heavy knockback would be nice for carno to not go into the "brawler" niche but instead be able to give itself some breathing room and possibly escape for small threats like a pack of utahs

[mellow zenith]

Im pretty sure stego and deino current power are "balanced" around the current roster, that's all

[frail bobcat]

That idea is pretty good, would make carno pretty good because it can escape situations where it doesnt want to be pretty well. Maybe without the fracture tho

Because then its kinda easy to kill pachys because they are slower than the carno, it would just fracture them and easy kill

[slim dragon]

Yeah fracture isn't necessary honestly
But on the other hand I feel like a lot more attacks in the game should have fracturing potential
But that would need the implementation of fracture severity levels

[neat forge]

@karmic lynx and @sick lion spelling some facts there

[primal harbor]

Utah's entire niche is to take out things bigger than it, I genuinely think that Utahs should win a 3v1 vs a Carno, maybe even a 2v1 with the same skill level, because the instant you put another Carno into the equation it makes everything much harder since they can bite the Utah's off each other during a pounce and you gotta get 5 or more Utahs on the scene to take them out without too many deaths

I would make the bite not do TOO much so it actually struggles with smaller things that are fast because that is more Carno's/ Cerato's niche and it would be harder for the Utah to pounce it

cuz I do think Utahs are the key to the current Stego problem they just haven't executed it right

anyone has any thoughts?

[golden coral]

3v1 utahs vs carno should be similar to 3v1 utahs vs teno, the utahs have the clear advantage but might still lose one or two depending on how they play. 2v1 should be a decent advantage to both carno and teno. As for utahs being the thing to fight stegos, no. Stego should not be a utah target at all really, barely a touch above anky as far as good choice of target goes. What we need is to get something like maia or diablo or galli in, so we can properly see how utah works vs things that have no good way to fight back and/or aren't as agile as pachy.

Carno is supposedly meant to hunt things around utah size and slightly lower/higher, so while utah is meant to hunt bigger things, carno would be the exception there. Allo would be a better target for utahs, since it's, as far as I know, not meant to hunt smaller stuff, and as such, would be less capable of handling said targets.

[hollow canyon]

I disagree completely, I think Carno should be heavily favoured against Utah because hunting Utah-sized animals is supposed to be its specialty. Carno performs woefully against animals larger than itself and is very mediocre at best against animals its own size. Utahs perform well against... well pretty much everything aside from Deino. They can go against things bigger than themselves, smaller than themselves(they actually instagib those if they can ambush them with the pounce). There's 0 reason why they should perform well against an animal that's supposed to be specialised in hunting them.

[primal harbor]

that is fair

Carno having more of an advantage in that situation make's sense since it is its niche

[sick lion]

@hollow canyon carnos are specialized to hunt prey the size of a utah, yes that's true and it is. that's why in 1v1 the carno has the advantage. but carno is definitely not specialized to fight against multiple opponents at once. so everything is as it should be.

[primal harbor]

I would imagine Utahs having a Huge advantage over Teno, especially in large numbers, Stego would be more of a struggle but once again, Dromaeosaurs were pretty much the methheads of that time like Allosaurus was with it taking down sauropods in the Jurassic, they would be perfectly fine taking out things MUCH bigger than them

[golden coral]

Well, in larger numbers yes. But teno should have the advantage in a 2v1, with 3v1 leaning over to utahs advantage. And sure, they can hunt bigger things, but size is only one factor. Stego should be terrible due to the way it's tail work, same reason a 9T anky is terrible, despite being such a large animal, because armor.

[primal harbor]

yes a 2v1 teno should have the advantage

but I am more thinking if they are at the same skill range 3 utahs almost sealing the deal

[golden coral]

This is why the whole concept of just looking at things as "small game" or "large game" hunter is a bad idea. Because you're not taking the specific critter into account. Look at kentro. Sure, it's "small", but well, compare charging a teno vs charging a kentro for a carno. One looks like it'd be a lot worse to attempt that on, despite not being vastly different.

So while stego is no doubt large game, so is deino, or spino or any of the others. I would imagine utahs can't get a spino half as well as a rex due to spino just going into water and slapping them with it's actually useful arms.

[primal harbor]

to be fair when I am saying large game for utah I am more thinking more of things without specialized defense

[golden coral]

Well yes, I did say the utahs would have a clear advantage, but might still lose one or two depending on how well they play. Like, if both sides play perfectly, the teno might be able to kill one utah before going down, but it will go down.

So it's more so "teno or carno will lose 3v1, but not without the utahs losing one of theirs too", more or less.

[primal harbor]

so para, diablos, stego, most of the hadrosaurs is more what I have in mind

yeah that is fair

[golden coral]

Except stego, I'd say you got it right. The reach and flanking of the stego would be the specialized defense. It's not just armor, spino has the arms and water, deino has water + bleed resist. It's more so to me, is this animal something that has easy to access flanks to pounce on. If yes, good target, if no, bad target. Deino "technically" has open flanks, if it's on land, but well, a deino on land is taking that risk. If it's near water, you're just not going to get it.

Ceratopsids and hadrosaurs should be the main prey, since the first is rather specialized in taking things head on, but restricted otherwise, and the second.. well, it's a hadrosaur, not quite sure what defenses those have except sheer bulk in the case of a shant really.

[round loom]

carno is an ambush hunter and he specialises in utah-sized prey, yes. but if you run through the area as a carno and think you're an invincible monster, you'll die if the utahs know what they're doing. so in most cases, it's probably because the carno is played incorrectly.

[primal harbor]

well with stego even with the back half not being as viable the rest is still completely fair game, when I say specialized defence I mean specialized defence EVERYWHERE, like anky or kentro

you just have to go from a different angle

without the tail it would be the exact prey strategy as a hadrosaur

but a Ceratopsid you just don't go for the front half, it is the same way but a different side

both of them belly works, just one you can go more for the shoulder area and the other you go for a thigh area

[hollow canyon]

Carno's not an ambush hunter and Utahs currently clap it quite reliably in general. If you let a Carno charge you as a Utah that's a big l2p moment all around.

Overall on the current patch I wouldn't bother with Carno, I've grown one and it all around felt like a waste of time compared to Utah.

Utah performs better vs... pretty much every animal aside from pachy maybe

[primal harbor]

nah they nerfed pachy so even then utah is on top

[hollow canyon]

and well Deino but Deino doesn't care about either Carno or Utah as it murders them both with ease

Nah, Pachy can defend itself from a Utah decently well, I think it might be the only animal where I'd rather be a Carno than a Utah

[primal harbor]

fair

but I do think making carno have more bleed was a bit much when they made the pounce be more consistent

[golden coral]

Exactly, without the tail. But since stego can cover it'self all the way up to the side of it's neck really, there's not much of a "front" to go for. If we had full tail control, you might even be able to just hit the utahs on you, both the back and front one. Stego had really good reach on that tail, while kentro is just a porcupine you're better of not touching. The difference is that a ceratopsid can't "reach" much more than the side of it's neck, a little bit "backwards". I know someone once said stego is just backwards trike, or if it was trike being a backwards stego, but that's just not true. Ceratopsids have attack in front/side, stego has attack over entire flank from tail to neck more or less. If stego only did have an attack behind it, then that argument would make more sense. (I know it wasnt said seriously but people sometimes seem to think that stego just had reach behind it, just like trike has in front of it, while stego really should have the entire side, compared to lets say a sauropod that does "wiggle" it's tail more or less only behind it. (at least the ones we have in game do).

[primal harbor]

then the AI is fucked so carno never has proper diet and or starves to death

this update is kinda a triple whammy to carno

[golden coral]

Maybe, maybe not. The issue is that every change really needs to be tested on it's own. There's still that issue of doing too much at one point when it comes to balance changes. I doubt the bleed change was needed with utahs proper pounce, so at the very least, things should be put back to just having the fixed pounce, with no other change (we also got that weird buck cooldown for.. god only knows what reason really).

@analog mirageDid they change the recovery for being bucked off too?

[primal harbor]

that is fair, but I do not think stego can reach that for to really get anything on it anyways so it feels like at least for pouncing as long as you get on it you are safe but dismounting and getting on to begin with you have a really good point

[analog mirage]

I think so although I’m not 100% sure on it I’d have to double check

[golden coral]

Not that it really matters, no utah that plays in any way with a braincell would ever get bucked off, or even knocked/rubbed off. :p

[analog mirage]

What I think actually happened is the animation was just sped up a bit so it was for both parts

[primal harbor]

but I do think if Utah's balanced for Ceratopsids and Hadrosaurs it would still be going after stego even if it is a bit more high risk

[analog mirage]

The bleed on Utah is fine, as long as it’s not risk free pouncing things it’ll be fine

[primal harbor]

well the issue is that the new pounce kinda makes it more risk free is the issue, you latch on anywhere then you teleport to the side

[golden coral]

And yeah, if we had proper pounce "slots", and not this "pounce anywhere, get on just fine" then it'd still work quite well, since the reach would make that far more difficult and dangerous vs pouncing a trike or a para. I don't know exactly how well a stego could reach, but I've heard that it was surprisingly flexible in that aspect. On the other hand, stego could not run irl for some reason. (I do want a better running anim and I'd be fine with making it a touch slower too, just give us good trots in general for travel, for all critters).

[primal harbor]

I do agree with that

[analog mirage]

Another issue is being able to do it from the tail/head

Tail pounces shouldn’t do much bleed at all and head pounces maybe a animation to climb/cling somewhere onto the back or head depending on the height and size to not make it wonky. But if you pounce somethings head a bite should take priority as you are risking going into someone’s face

[golden coral]

It would, just like it would go after a deino on land, or a spino. It's not "they can't hunt this", but rather "this is 90% risk of death in the engagement" vs "this is only 70% risk of death".. sort of. Obviously not quite like that in the game, but just different levels of difficulty and danger. The only thing utahs shouldn't really be touching would be sufficiently grown sauropods. But a rex or a shant would be perfectly fine target, if a very long hunt in the latter case due to sheer bulk of a shant.

[primal harbor]

the issue with those are Alt bites and turn radius tho

[golden coral]

Would be easiest to just have pounce only work if you're aiming/hitting the flank/slots you're supposed to be on. But then we might risk breaking pounce again, so alternatively would be to just nerf the power and add more pounces for the same result, increasing the risk that way.

[primal harbor]

if they didn't have an Alt bite or a good turn radius than utahs would probably not have that much of an issue which is the wort part

[golden coral]

I don't know, even if something is standing in place and turning, if you have two or more utahs, they're still leaving themselves open. No matter if you turn to face one of them, the other now has a clear shot at your side.

[primal harbor]

so something that could work is doing what some people have said where if you do directly from behind or directly from the front you just bounce off, or you can make the pounce use more stamina then pouncing from angles you should not pounce

letting them do it but with some sort of punishment may be the way to go

so less damage or use more stam

[analog mirage]

If you pounce behind it’ll be a tail pounce which should just do very little bleed at all

[golden coral]

I'd make it just have the current "missed pounce" fast recovery. So you just go "oof" and stand there for that very short time. It'd be enough of a risk that way I think. Could also keep the current fast recovery for a missed pounce then, since you now have an additional "miss" in a way.

[analog mirage]

Tail hits already do less damage, the issue is the bleed on a tail

[primal harbor]

^

well when Iv'e been saying damage I mean bleed as well, should have specified

[analog mirage]

Yeah

[round loom]

carno is not an ambush hunter? okay lol, discussion with you makes no sense if you are denie facts

[analog mirage]

If it’s not a ambush hunter what is it?

Carno is literally built to be a ambush hunter

[hollow canyon]

Deino

Utah is also a better ambush hunter than Carno