general-feedback-discussion

[gentle spire]

lets compare with dilo

speed: Dilo
weight: DIlo
bite force: Dilo

Diet: Dilo

and i didnt start talking about poison vs bleed

and the stam use

[cyan flame]

Agility: Omni. Ability: Omni.
Dilos mechanic can be countered even easier than pounce, so dilo is worse off. Pretty sure two omnis can grapple a dilo at that.

[urban flax]

If numbers is the only thing you care about no wonder you think omni is bad
You must also believe carno outclasses both of them as well as cerato in every way

[gentle spire]

youre absolutely wrong

[limber hull]

just you wait till you realise that dilo is the worst carnivore in the game and omni outclasses it in all ways beyond base stats

[cyan flame]

On what? Omni is more agile, pounce and grapple are far more powerful than dilos venom overall. So where am I wrong?

Dilo hallucinations can be negated entirely with terrain, far more than pounce can be.

[gentle spire]

of course u dont play the game

your teory is really good

but in pratice you really dont know how it works

[limber hull]

im almost certain you're trolling lol

there's no way this is legit

[cyan flame]

So where is it wrong then? Is dilo more agile? Is venom not negated by terrain any more? Is grapple not a thing, or did they change so you need a lot more omnis now?

[gentle spire]

good theory

play the game and you will see

[urban flax]

definitely trolling

[limber hull]

absolutely trolling

[cyan flame]

Perhaps you ought to look at the stats and everything else in game a little more yourself, since you're clearly missing something. You should follow your own suggestion, it might help.

[desert arch]

Only changes dilo got this update is a pretty noticeable bite speed buff, and venom was made slightly more reliable.

[gentle spire]

you really dont play the game lol

[lapis swallow]

I do, and I can tell you that Omni is fine rn.

[cyan flame]

And you know this, based on what? Your own claims, unverified and all?

[lapis swallow]

been maining it for two years and it is in a good state, for itself

[cyan flame]

Didn't dilo already bite very fast? And how is the venom more reliable?

[vale pawn]

I dont even play Omni and even I can agree it is very fine where it is

[desert arch]

It got reduced pretty drastically, which was imo a good change, machine gun bites made it impossible to fight as a smaller critter and allowed it to just facetank stuff until they were stage 3. But now it went from fast, to very, very fast ;-;

As for venom, if the clones spawn, you can no longer disable them, so they will bite you no matter what

Terrain can still disable them since they just dont spawn at all

[cyan flame]

Okay now I'm a little confused, but alright.

[desert arch]

Its attack speed is the same as when it was firat released. Sorry for the rant😅

[gentle spire]

@cedar drum you should be the weakest carno in the game lol

[cedar drum]

I, don’t play carno

[lapis swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/perfect-popcorn-michael-jackson-gif-26271837

[cedar drum]

Besides carno is already weak

[tight iron]

mr viking

theres a crap ton of counters to pounce

we dont need more

[cedar drum]

There’s a buck that barely works… and trees… mud aswell I guess, but that depends on whether the raptors are competent enough to bite you while in the mud

[tight iron]

the entire map is trees and walls

almost the entire map is a counter to pounce

the ability that is the easiest to counter, you dont even need to move, just stick yo ass up a wall and there you have it

not to mention that if a raptor runs at you, you can just dodge da pounce

[cedar drum]

Me when you can’t run to trees cause you are currently being pinned and mauled to death by 2 raptors

[tight iron]

then dont get pinned

look around you

use your ears and eyes

fight back maybe

[cedar drum]

How to doge one of the best things at turning in the game, you don’t

[tight iron]

it is not that difficult to dodge a pounce

even as a carno it is very much possible

it's seriously not complicated to counter raptors in every single way

[cedar drum]

I have seen raptors do things they really shouldn’t be able to

[tight iron]

they wanna pounce you? dodge or invalidate using terrain
they wanna pin you? fight back

or fight back while using terrain to your advantage

[cedar drum]

So the pounce has 1 effective counter, and its terrain, literally nothing else

[tight iron]

your face is a counter as well

and *** practically the whole map*** counters pounce

so pounce is the easiest thing to counter

less complaining more learning

[desert arch]

I really hope they nerf terrains effectiveness against pounce along with the bucking rework🙏

[tight iron]

since you can move around at the cost of stam, yes

bit of a terrain nerf coming

[cedar drum]

So, the only other counter to pounce is not getting pounced my guy that is not a fair counter

[tight iron]

not very crazy but a bit

[tight iron]

how is it not fair

the counter to ram is not being rammed

the counter to herrera jump is not getting jumped

[desert arch]

Wont really help tbh, one crevise in a rock or dense foliage and its still over :/

[tight iron]

the counter to ceras is just dont do stupid things against them

[tight iron]

tbh i think that raptors shouldnt be able to win all fights at all places

otherwise everything becomes free food for raptors

[desert arch]

Yes, definetly, but places like highlands where half of their viable prey options are located are full of these obstancles that I just mentioned

[tight iron]

yea, goofy rocks everywhere

the map is so filled with rocks trees and walls that countering pounce has never been this easy

you get pounced? dw the closest obstacle is 3m away from you

[cedar drum]

You have to dodge one of, if not the most agile thing in the game, not to mention there’s likely going to be more than 5 of them, so you have to dodge 5 of the most agile things in the game, and while doing so they are probably bleeding you like crazy, bucking drains your own stamina aswell, meaning that you just become EVEN MORE VULNERABLE to getting grappled, even if you did manage to kill some of them, by the end of the fight you are exhausted and god forbid there were 2 raptors left who just so happened to be good on stamina, aaaand you die

[tight iron]

gg for the raptors then

[cedar drum]

Buddy, it’s still not fair

[tight iron]

you just explained a hunt in which the raptors took the upper hand with a good ambush and got the kill

[desert arch]

Also every large rock formation having cracs just barely big enough to squeeze yourself into, or rocks that can be scaled by even stegos and dibbles etc.

[cedar drum]

I never said anything about an ambush

[tight iron]

it's fair, the issue is that you just don't wanna deal with them

[tight iron]

in this scenario that you put, practically every single move is a mistake

you get pounced so you begin bucking and running around, which makes you way more vulnerable than you could've been if you played your cards right, and then you try to dogfight them knowing there's a lot of them

that's just the wrong way to do it, no wonder the person in that scenario would get obliterated

[cyan flame]

It should be far less about if there is any form of counter, and far more about if there's any proper, mechanical counter that's fun and engaging. Of which there are little to none.

But hopefully bucking rework will help with that.

[cedar drum]

If you dont run or Buck, more raptors Will pounce you, and it lets the raptors deal more damage

[tight iron]

if you get pounced, search for the closest obstacle to get rid of them and then take the fight calmly. if you can run, run, if you can't, stay and try to fight back

adn the way you fight back is, if you're absolutely outnumbered, hold your ground over there

wait for them to commit mistakes and don't commit mistakes yourself

a single mistake from a raptor can end up with him dying, so use that to your advantage

[tight iron]

you yourself said that bucking is a death sentence, don't buck

simply run to the closest obstacle which should be about 5-1m away from you and then evaluate the fight

[cedar drum]

Tell me, where do most people on the server hang out (hint: its Plains) you arent 1-5 meters from a tree

[tight iron]

true, you're about 10-15m from a tree

[cyan flame]

To be fair, it's very hard to make mistakes as omni, a lot harder than most other playables

[tight iron]

and if you aren't, why didn't you run away when you saw the raptor army coming

[tight iron]

wrong

[cedar drum]

Enough time for 2 raptors to inflict painful amounts of bleed

[tight iron]

then look around you 😭

if you're in the plains and you get killed by raptors, that's entirely your fault

[cyan flame]

No, it's correct. You got speed and agility, if you make mistakes despite that, you're just bad.

[tight iron]

speed and agility doesn't mean you can't commit mistakes tho

[cyan flame]

If you, despite, having the ability to literally react and change whatever you're doing at a moments notice, and you make mistakes, that's entirely on you.

[cedar drum]

So your argument is still, the only counter to pounce is not getting pounced

[tight iron]

i never said that 😭

[cyan flame]

No, and did I say "can't commit mistakes"? I didn't. I said it's a lot harder to make mistakes with omni, not that you can't or that it's impossible.

[cedar drum]

That isnt a fair ability

[tight iron]

it is very fair

the issue, again, is that you don't want to deal with raptors

[cedar drum]

Then what are the counters pal

[tight iron]

i just told you that the whole map is the counter

theres obstacles everywhere in the map, use em

[cedar drum]

It just isnt

[tight iron]

and if you're in the plains, use your eyes and ears

[cyan flame]

Not really. The issue is a lack of proper, mechanical counters

[tight iron]

if you flat out deny the most obvious fact we got nothing to do here

[cyan flame]

No one likes using terrain, it does not make for a fun or engaging encounter

And it's the only viable option until we get a rework

[tight iron]

i know, im not saying "ohhh yeah this is awesome WOOO" im just saying use common sense and logic

[cyan flame]

Unless you can outright run, you more or less have to use terrain

[cedar drum]

The map has plenty of terrain, but where 90% of players Hangout just doesn’t

[tight iron]

then dont hang out there

[cyan flame]

I am aware, I am not criticising you. Mostly trying to, I don't know, steer this in somewhat of a more useful direction?

[tight iron]

if theres gonna be so many ppl over there, probably a bad idea if you wanna survive for long

[cyan flame]

At least since I'd like to think you can all agree there could be better and more interesting ways to do pounce/buck and the whole grapple and so on

[cedar drum]

So, the only counters to raptors is STILL AVOIDING RAPTORS

[tight iron]

avoid them, and if you have to fight them, either use terrain or run

[cyan flame]

So instead of going "there is no counter" or "there is, stand in terrain", it's more interesting and useful to look at the situation and see if it's good and fun and all that, or so it seems to me at least

[cedar drum]

So, avoid one of the quickest to grow, and most popular playables in the game, and you’re fine

[tight iron]

this is as stupid as saying "i want better counters to herrera but i dont wanna use terrain and i wanna live under trees where they usually live at, and if i get jumped it's the fault of the game and not mine"

[tight iron]

do you want to die to raptors

[cyan flame]

I did see someone suggesting being able to snag herreras out of the air if they could see them in time

[tight iron]

if yes, ignore everything i said and:

• don't pay attention
• don't use terrain
• don't evaluate fights
• spartan charge at a group that is obviously gonna kill you and complain when you die

[cedar drum]

No, the issue is that they are too good and there isn’t much to do against them

[tight iron]

theres a lot to do against them, you simply don't wanna see it

easiest ability to counter

straight up easiest one

[cedar drum]

If the only way to not die is to avoid something that shouldn’t be much of a threat, then it isn’t fair

[tight iron]

how should it not be much of a threat

you wnat 100kg raptors that cant even pounce you?

[cedar drum]

One of the fastest things to grow in the game is why

Thought that was the point of growth

[tight iron]

it's only about 15 mins away from cera

1h 42m is not fast

it should def be a threat and im glad it is a serious threat right now

[cyan flame]

That'd be deino lunge or herrera jump I'd say

[tight iron]

otherwise it wouldnt make sense to spend so much time into a squishy thing to then die miserably

[tight iron]

tbh yeah deino lunge is the easiest one to counter you're right here

and herrera jump is as easy as raptor pounce imo

[cyan flame]

Since they're outright "can't attack if target is in safe spot", while omnis can use the pounce, at a very high risk, even if something is next to a tree or rock

Purely due to herreras lack of "reach"

[tight iron]

i meannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn you can pounce if something's camping next to a tree or a rock but you're gonna die

[cyan flame]

Though it can relocate, so it's still better than deino

[cyan flame]

True, it's rarely going to pay off, but it can work out, depending on target, how well your pack acts, and so on

[tight iron]

if you can somehow distract it and get it a bit away from the rock it's a viable tactic yes

[cedar drum]

I think pounce should just get the punishment for missing again, or bring back the old old bucking that throws the raptors off, or do both

[tight iron]

the bucking that throws it off is coming back

[cedar drum]

Epic

[tight iron]

at the cost of 0 stamina

youre not gonna consume any stam at all

[cedar drum]

Still epic

[tight iron]

raptors wont get any stam punishment either btw

0% stam consumption for both but it throws the raptors away

[cedar drum]

That’s fair

The grapple mechanic specifically is so dependent on stamina that it would be silly if bucking cost stamina for anything

[tight iron]

i agree

[cedar drum]

I also think the punishment for missing pounce should return, its such a powerful attack that it needs something, but the return of useful bucking is good enough for me

[cyan flame]

@tight ironThey do need to look over the requirements for grappling. Both the minimum requirements as well as thresholds, and which stats should be used and all. Hopefully we get a bit of a revision on the ability together with the pounce and buck changes.

[tight iron]

i think it's fine besides cera

[unique mirage]

only thing id change about pounce is the back pounce tbh, you can throw all of them off on a tree but the one on the back sometimes stays on which absolutely sucks. But yeah trees or packmates are the ultimate pounce counters rn. Actually the raptors packmates might count as pounce counters aswell since they tend to hit each other

[cyan flame]

Eh, carno would be in trouble too, and in some cases it does seem odd, even for larger critters. Though in those cases it could just be that stam, blood, health or other thresholds are just too high/low and might need some changes.

[cyan flame]

I think they might need that one for the moving slots, even if back pounce on something like stego looks really bad and makes little sense.

Could just make it so stego is one where you can't switch sides, because plates get in the way and thus won't need a backslot. But that would actually make stegos better vs omnis than others, and I doubt that'd go over well.

[limber hull]

legit just make it that 100% of the overall weight in raptors is required to pin an animal, rather than 65%

[tight iron]

bad idea

lot of things would be unpinnable

[cedar drum]

Perhaps somethings just should be unpinnable

[tight iron]

deino

things that are awfully heavy like deinos or things 8 tons or beyond

also iirc carno only has 3 slots so it would be unpinnable

[cedar drum]

Carno is getting downsized so don’t be too sure about that

It’ll weigh as much as cera now, I think

[tight iron]

true, 1300kg

but then things like stegos would be unpinnable which imo is a pretty bad thing

[cedar drum]

I mean stegos should be really dangerous to hunt as well… anything…

[tight iron]

they are

[cedar drum]

But grapple does significantly reduce the danger for raptors

[tight iron]

the danger is in pouncing the stego so not sure

it does make the hunts shorter tho

this is invalidated if the stego has a friend

he'll just swipe the entire raptor pack off his friend

he'll deal damage to his friend but save him

[cedar drum]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-shrug-i-dont-know-gif-14777043

[tight iron]

it does remove some danger as you said tho (if he's solo)

[limber hull]

not really a bad idea if the bare minimum weight remains the same

(also stego being pinned by omni is fundamentally absurd)

[tight iron]

not quite

[limber hull]

i just think you should require 100% to pin a fully healthy opponent

[cyan flame]

Stego should just be able to swipe raptors/troodons off of itself anyway. If others can reach with claws and jaws, stego tail should be plenty able too!

[cyan flame]

4 omnis outright pinning a teno, but yes, I guess that is fine.

More so that pinning is just meh, sitting there waiting to die

[split thistle]

@proud turtle there are markers for east and west already. if you turn between the north and south marks, you will see a little sliver of red. if you are looking north and look right, that sliver is east. If you are looking north and turn left that sliver is west.

[full pewter]

I honestly can’t imagine carno taking on Teno much anymore cause of this change, which was the funnest matchup. Tenos could kill carnos quickly even at 1800kg, now at 1300? Carnos are toast, and I’ve seen how fast Tenos can kill ceratos

I’ll wait and see when it releases on hoardetest first though, if it gets better mobility than maybe it’s better justified. But if it’s hardly different than before, then carno is just gonna be more worthless. Current carno is garbage

[proud turtle]

Didn't realize thank u

[cinder haven]

ahh don't worry man actually technically this is much better technically our energy has been increased and also our very fast stun is back and it eats less stam and also carno will still be able to stun teno and also sub diablo is easier to kill and we still bite 175 and we are taha agile

[full pewter]

Those changes are good, but I’m not a fan of instant charge, especially with its instant acceleration, Cerato will suffer cause of this.
Also was it specified that carno can still stun teno? Is carno getting a buffed turn radius?

[cinder haven]

Now I agree that cera has no chance, we will see when it comes out, but canro will most likely stun teno, even now we know that we can stun 2.4 tons and I am sure that teno will be stunned, and yes I saw that he can turn much more easily, we will see when the update comes, and yes I am sad that carno dropped 1.800 kg but I believe it will be better, if it is bad I will already send feedback.

[full pewter]

I agree that it’s best to wait rn, but I guarantee tenos are gonna feel much more of a force when this happens. Now what will take on teno? I could say raptors but bucking changes could also change this conversation. It’s not just looking like carnivores close to Tenos size are gonna struggle more than they should.

[cinder haven]

yes time will tell us and also the number of tenos will increase for sure and it will be much more difficult to kill him but it will probably not be impossible to kill a prime 1v1 teno and carno will have to attack more in groups but there's nothing to do, the majority opinion is valid and I also like the fact that canro is back to his old stun speed, the rest of it doesn't look bad either

Also, carno is less likely to kill other herbivores. Now we can only kill Sub and Juvi (the new herbivores)

[cinder haven]

he could also increase the speed

[full pewter]

That was true even before, Cerato is in orange after two Teno kicks, it was nice to have a tankier option. Now it doesn’t matter. Also what majority opinion? This debate seems heavily split

[full pewter]

And then what? Carno is already the fastest carnivore

[cinder haven]

I wrote a post about general feedback and I was going to get 20 times, then I changed my mind and deleted it.

[full pewter]

#general-feedback message
Here’s my post criticizing the changes, you can see the vote ratio, this looks split to me

[cinder haven]

hm when I wrote this I got a lot of crosses thrown at me anyway throw this idea again so that people who believe in it don't forget it ✅

[chilly ermine]

Omni drains stam during its pounce which almost guarantees that a pack could drain an opponent to 0 stam. I think pin should happen at 0 stam.

Just makes more send that it should be an all in scenario. This drives raptors to coordinate more and use up their own stam.

Not sure if “100%” part of your comet was referring to the targets stam. I think pinning should only be a reward for getting an animal to 0 stam.

[barren crater]

I think they're talking about the weight. So you'd to be at least 100% of the creatures weight to pin it.

So for example 3 omnis to pin a cerato that is completely healthy

[chilly ermine]

Ah I see. If thats the case then shouldn't a dino start to slow down once X amount of omnis are pounced depending on the stamina level? Doesn't exactly makes sense that they can run at full gate either...

[vital valve]

any idea why i cant eat or grab (playing teno)

[chilly ermine]

I've had that issue with other dinos. For me, sitting a few times, smelling, other actions can reset it

[vital valve]

ty!

[chilly ermine]

If the food was already carried and then dropped though, it could be broken

[silver scroll]

can we please fix Dibbles hitbox, getting chased across highlands with a dibble literally chasing you and hitting from 20 ft away as a teno is crazy, theres nothing you can do about it to get away either, not to mention the rocks you get stuck on 24/7

[icy lion]

#🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[chilly ermine]

@desert quarry the devs have talked about ‘sliding’ down embankments. Not sure if it’s a separate mechanic or an answer to falling…

[limber hull]

@violet vessel that's actually been discussed, an aquatic DLC is the one they most want to do (if any)

[wooden agate]

id like a singleplayer campaign DLC that goes through the story of legacy and/or the orginal story they had planned back in the beginning (i.e when you were a human and could spawn gallis and rexes and pues)

[hidden mist]

https://tenor.com/view/vhagar-meleys-fight-rhaenys-aemond-gif-6101815088479743822

[hidden mist]

@knotty dawn you mean this?

[limpid breach]

Yeah he means that

We were talking about it in dms I think he cooked ngl

I think it would be sick if pteras or quetzals could do that

[hidden mist]

Yep, I think the same. Can it be called “sparring” for flyers, lol? I know that eagles (and maybe some other birds) do that in real life, but not to compete for a mating partner, but already with that partner. So it’s not really “sparring” by definition

[limpid breach]

Could, it couldn’t also be just to throw ur enemies into rocks or trees lol

Would make flyer combat more interesting and brutal

[unique mirage]

Having to do skill checks sounds annoying tho. Should make it that holding RMB extends your claws while flying and kicks the other ptera down a few feet, potentially hitting a tree or rocks and leading to it needing stam to fly back up. If the other ptera holds RMB as well THEN the death spiral will initiate and drain stam while falling because both are struggling. You can however chicken out of it by simply letting go off RMB. The first one to let go should get a hefty stam punishment which you need to pull up (if you are out you go straight into the ground) , leading to both parties betting on the other one to let go first and keeping the spiral going until the very last second.

[limpid breach]

Idk how it would work or how they would code something like that or balance it, it was my friends original idea so yeah lol

[unique mirage]

And it's a great idea, aerial combat needs some love but I doubt we'll get it anytime soon sadly

[desert quarry]

How so? Is it implemented already?

[tender latch]

@remote leaf In that map idea feedback, do you know all the locations/national parks those pictures are from? I'd like to know

[chilly ermine]

Not implemented. It has been mentioned in the past, I assume to have something in-between falling and walking. A dev might have more info if they wish to share 😉

[knotty dawn]

yuh

[desert quarry]

Okay, so.... it still needs to be a thing, then. What was the point in bringing this up?

[chilly ermine]

#general-feedback message I was responding to your post about falling, letting you know it's being worked on

[desert quarry]

Okay. They may have mentioned it, but I don't know if that means it'll change any time soon. We need it changed asap, because people have been complaining about fall damage for years.

[mental mountain]

@tender latch I know full well you would've left that feedback alone if I didn't mention beipi

[unreal ridge]

@vale pawn https://youtu.be/9q1pOh8PHCQ I know this clip is from a roblox game however it might tie into your suggestion, instead of holding the prey up while thrashing, a headbutt would be required to subdue the prey before releasing a nearly lethal assault on any creature it can knock down

[latent olive]

#general-feedback message

lmao.

[long zenith]

is the Evrima servers better?

im new

[limber hull]

#general-feedback message

@latent olive i like this one

[latent olive]

lamo

[limber hull]

#general-feedback message

ain't no WAY this man used Jurassic World as a source LMAO

[sage plover]

💀

[limber hull]

also carno's large size has been the exact reason why it got all the nerfs it got to begin with, and why it hasn't been buffed for so long

[dry falcon]

Can't forget omniraptor bro

[limber hull]

doesn't omniraptor also prove my point further? that thing is literally entirely fictional

carno can be smaller if the devs want it to

[sage plover]

exactly, I also feel like new carno will have a better skill ceiling, like maybe even a skilled carno could challenge a bad-ish teno in 1v1. which current carno cant even really do rn

[limber hull]

by reducing carno's size, it can be shoved into the role it was meant to fulfil since day one and not have to have a bunch of lame nerfs slowing it down

[dry falcon]

If it's smaller, wouldn't the weight be less too?

[limber hull]

well... yes, that's the idea

carno's getting its weight reduced

[dry falcon]

That'll be interesting

In terms of grapple

[boreal vessel]

If a cera is getting pinned by 2 adult raptors kiss The carno good bye lol the bleed rate is worse

[dry falcon]

Yeah

[limber hull]

so... nerf the raptor LMAO

[latent olive]

brother why are you using jurassic world as a reference

[boreal vessel]

The Carno can easily get the buffs without the nerfs.

[sage plover]

honestly im just imagining spiro carno at its peak of being overpowered, but now at 1.3 tons so its balanced, and will just roll small tiers

[dry falcon]

Jw fanboy

[latent olive]

https://imgur.com/gallery/7HH4XWT

[limber hull]

I love how "cerato gets obliterated by this clearly overpowered thing, so rather than fix the thing that's clearly overpowered, keep carno big"

[boreal vessel]

Do you have a better reference brother?

[limber hull]

nerf the clearly overpowered grapple mechanic so it DOESN'T instantly pin a cerato LMAO

[boreal vessel]

Carnos werent small man

[boreal vessel]

" make big thing small"

[latent olive]

you could have used literally anything else

jurassic world is not a good source of carnotaurus accuracy

[limber hull]

and ceratos weren't that big

[sage plover]

we've had that before, carno on spiro at a point had a no stam charge with great knockdown, it could practically 1v2 anything in the game other than steg and deino

[latent olive]

hell im pretty sure the land before time has a better carnotaurus representation than jurassic world

[dry falcon]

U5 carno was nice

[boreal vessel]

Your argument is simply " make big dino small"

[limber hull]

no it isn't?

[boreal vessel]

When big dino was actually a big dino lol.

[dry falcon]

Eh

[boreal vessel]

They can easily keep the carno at 1800KG and reduce its stam intake... if you disagree... you can easily do so

[limber hull]

my argument is "make big dino small if it means making the big dino actually able to do the job it was set out to do since it was added"

[boreal vessel]

I have a great time as Carno as it sits, im sure alot of players do to.... but go on big dog..

[limber hull]

i never said you don't???

[sage plover]

its that the devs want carno to be a small game hunter, but every time they have buffed it to do so it can delete teno and cera, so they nerf it to 1.3 tons and give it its really good abilities again so it can be small game hunter and not broken.

[boreal vessel]

You think a 2 ton dinosaur wouldnt break a leg after a 10 ft fall?

[latent olive]

rough height estimate of carno
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/855527844670865438/1015656177931137075/unknown.png?ex=66cea446&is=66cd52c6&hm=d34f089d574bbee02cc310b6bab9908badefd0df14e0d16252ba989c0efbbda9&

[limber hull]

exactly

[boreal vessel]

The Carno IS a small game hunter right now

[limber hull]

no it is NOT lmao

[boreal vessel]

Yes it is lol

[dry falcon]

I could probably do a better chart

[limber hull]

it sucks ASS at hunting anything that isn't a cerato

[boreal vessel]

The biggest a Carno is fighting right now is a dilo or cera bro...

[latent olive]

@glass mulch you heard him

[sage plover]

carno is extremely bad as small game hunting rn

[boreal vessel]

So youre saying the Carno should only fight pachys or dryos bro> wtf?

[sage plover]

its bad at hunting everything

[boreal vessel]

it might be your first time hearing this but you cant be a cera or raptor main and just hop on a carno, each dinosaur moves in their own way and take time to learn how to play.

[limber hull]

dilos, omnis, gallis, pachies, dryos, any juvi, so on

[boreal vessel]

It took me some legit time to learn how to play the big boy with stiff legs

[dry falcon]

Being small should mean: better manoeuvrability, better Stam and quieter footsteps

[boreal vessel]

Guys please, refrain from the trolling and just hear me out lol

[sage plover]

no, its bad at hunting legit everything, but when they buff it to be able to hunt raptors and other small tiers it becomes op, so they nerf it to 1.3 tons and buff the hell out of its charge and other traits such as agility so it can hunt small game.

[limber hull]

i dont think anyone is trolling brother

[dry falcon]

How the hell did I type less whiter footsteps

[boreal vessel]

I hunt raptors perfectly fine, pachys, etc.

You have to know as a carno when to fight and when to flight ufeel me

[sage plover]

then those raptors are bad, and pachy is just, well pachy

[boreal vessel]

Bro lol

[limber hull]

so you should have no problem with new carno, since it's much better at it

[boreal vessel]

How many hours do u have as a carno>

Its not easy killing 12 raptors at once

I just feel at 1300KG

They will walk over us

But aye, I hope it works out

[limber hull]

(they will if they don't make grapple actually balanced lmao)

[dry falcon]

NDIS? Are you Aussie?

[boreal vessel]

I want to see a new carno player right now, take on 5 mid raptor players.. go try to defend yourself from the killing machine solo teno lol

[sage plover]

I play carno often, probably 750 of my 3000 hrs in carno, I play most of the roster, but carno to be good againt a pack of more than 3 raptors legit has to hold a rock or cliff to stand a chance rn

[limber hull]

yes lol

[boreal vessel]

I used to be able to atleast defend myself from a Teno but now their kick bleeds you out your buttox

[dry falcon]

Hell yeah

[boreal vessel]

Yeah we shouldnt "Hunt: them

but a carno should be able to hold its own against one.

[limber hull]

you have 55km/hr of movement in the other direction at your fingertips

[sage plover]

yea, because carno in-game rn is nerfed into the floor since it was too powerful, hence the rework

[boreal vessel]

Thats completely against my point.

[limber hull]

why? it can literally avoid the teno with absolutely zero concerns

it has its self defence already

[boreal vessel]

No, when the bear is poked- it should be able to hold its own against a smaller, well., what was once a smalle herbivore

[sage plover]

this as well, carno is not meant to fight teno, just run

[limber hull]

being able to flee is as potent and as valuable as being able to fight

hell, speed is by far one of the strongest stats in the game

you can choose when you fight, when you don't fight, if you fight, where you fight, who you fight

[boreal vessel]

That was one of my points previously ^^ being able to fight or flee.. but we're talking about a 30'+ 10' tall carnivore

[limber hull]

its size doesn't exempt it from balance.

[dry falcon]

And in real life too

[boreal vessel]

It just doenst sit right with me that theyre making the carno seem so small and weak

[cyan flame]

Are we talking real life estimates or in game stats?

Cause well, irl isn't that relevant for how it works in game

[dry falcon]

Size isn't everything.

[boreal vessel]

It is if youre a T Rex

[sage plover]

teno is also designed to punch up from its weight, carno is designed to punch down, the teno is obviously gonna win that encounter

[cyan flame]

Carno could have been buffed/fixed and nerfed and kept it's size, but maybe they just want the size smaller, like how they want dibble larger

[limber hull]

well, teno needs that combat advantage for its survival, so evidently carno has to lose out, since teno CAN'T flee

[dry falcon]

Rex has other things that make it capable. Like it's bite force.

[boreal vessel]

Thats how I feel. That the Carno can still keep its weight but buff its stamina, because as of now a 1v1 teno is not a smart option for a carno.

[sage plover]

on this topic, carno will probally keep its biteforce(speculation) and its general amount of damage it can deal out even at 1.3 tons

[cyan flame]

But it's not like 1300 kg carno is going to be differently designed than how carno should be designed anyway, I'm guessing smaller size might help make it hunt smaller things better, fit better when running after them if they try to hide somewhere, and stuff like that perhaps? Could also be made more agile now that it's more fragile, so it still can't fight larger things

[cyan flame]

Well, you're not meant to go after tenos, they're not small game

[dry falcon]

Neat

Carno has to be what it eats honestly

[boreal vessel]

Not to hunt the tenos, just not get slaughtered by them

[cyan flame]

Honestly, they could have just reduced damage and knockdown threshold on charge to half carnos weight, and then made charge good and it would have worked out more or less

But if they want a downsize, so be it

[limber hull]

you can still flee them lol

[boreal vessel]

I hope it works out lol, Im eager for the upcoming HT whenever that is

[cyan flame]

Why are you engaging something you can just avoid? It's like asking to fight a stego when you can just walk away from it

[sage plover]

you could just run as solo carno, and with current carno 2 can kill a teno. The new 1.3 ton carno will prob easily 2v1 a bad teno, or even decent teno

[cyan flame]

Or engaging a cera for that matter, something you won't want to do with the new changes

[boreal vessel]

Its not that Carnos always engage, its the herbis that are aggressive that chase you down, especially with mixpackers now thats a whole different story. But the Carno is formidable and should not be so easily challenged by a herbivore

unless its much bigger than the carnivore lol

[cyan flame]

Well, mixing is an issue, yes. But thats its own issue. As for being chased down, you can escape quite well. And to be fair, it depends on what they want the carno in game to be

[boreal vessel]

I mean even now, a pachy is considered "small game" they give carnos a challenge right now at 1800KG lol

[limber hull]

well pachy was designed primarily around carno

[boreal vessel]

our mass, our size mixed with that speed is our only tool. Whereas Ceras can bite you, make u vomit and deal additional damage. Carnos either succeed in ramming, a few bites, or they have to flee

[minor field]

Chasing someone down as a teno, especially a carno is among the worst things you can do since not only will they just outrun you but you’re gonna burn all the stamina you need to DEFEND yourself so I don’t see how that’s an issue at all unless it’s of course a mixpack or you’re gasping for air exhausted and dying.

[sage plover]

maybe in real life or JW or whatever your thinking about carno is formidable, but the devs want carno to be the small game hunter niche and against anything above honestly 1-1.3 tons carno will struggle in this game because its not meant to hunt above that in the devs image

[spring basin]

guys why game is not showing server can someone help?

[boreal vessel]

You never had a teno chase you down as a carno while youre bleeding out???

[cyan flame]

I imagine with the changes, you just yield to a cera, do not fight it

[boreal vessel]

1 kick from the teno @minor field can cause you to bleed out, especially if you just sprint away, and if that teno has a cera with it, youre screwed

[limber hull]

(based on current carno stamina, if you even tried to charge it, it will probably run you down lol)

but that's just more evidence that current carno bad

[boreal vessel]

yeah see that just sucks IMO

what made me want to play carno was getting rammed as a cera, i looked up, and theres this beast above me, massive, scary, that was a good carno.

[sage plover]

I have, and once you tank 2-3 kicks you can just run away out of sight and sit, pay attention to your surroundings, and if it finds you, run again, your bleed should have healed by enough for you to be fine

[boreal vessel]

Tenos can easily make u bleed, and they can chase u down lol, just the facts, ive had dozens of these encounters.

[cyan flame]

Maybe you should reconsider your approach to tenos then

[minor field]

That is just flat out false, and also you shouldn’t even be getting in that position in the first place unless the teno just happens to find you after you fought something else which yeah you’re gonna die but almost everything can take advantage of someone who’s close to death so I really don’t see the problem.

[limber hull]

reconsider approaching tenos in general as a carno LMAO

[minor field]

Yeah just, don’t as a solo carno.

[sage plover]

I have as well, where they chase me down, run away out of sight, sit, heal, run if they find you, its not to bad considering carno is in a nerfed state rn

[minor field]

Like unless you have friends backing you up you are not soloing that thing if both players are equally skilled.

[boreal vessel]

Im not saying at all how I even personally approach a teno... IDK where you guys get that. How my statement indicates that I just run up and start biting the tail end of a teno... thats not at all what im saying guys.

Im saying, that it should not be so easy for a smaller herbivore to dominate a bigger carnivore. They want to focus on realism but theyre making a big carnivore so weak and almost worthless IMO.

Im eager to try the updated version, we'll see how it goes.

[limber hull]

i hate making the cheetah comparison, because carno is not a cheetah, but like

vultures scare off cheetahs

honey badgers scare off lions

[boreal vessel]

but yeah perhaps im speaking on too much realism not enough game so

[limber hull]

also i dont think any big carnivore is worthless right now, besides carno, but carno is just BAD and has been for a while

[cyan flame]

Somewhat, because you do have to keep in mind the critters design too. Size, stats, and so on, there's more than just one of those that determine how a playable works and how good it is. Yes, carno currently is a little bigger than teno, but that does not mean it's designed to trade blows with something that can and will hit back just as hard.

[limber hull]

i think overaccounting for size over niche is a big problem too

[minor field]

I too am quite excited for its update mainly out of desperation for carno to be an actual animal with a niche now

[limber hull]

LMAO

honestly me and my mate are totally geared to finally play carno again lmao

[minor field]

Me and my buddies tried it again after not playing it for a while and it was genuinely one of the clunkiest things ever and we had to have insane coordination to be able to kill like, one single subadult dibble as 3 carnos

[limber hull]

stego, carno and pachy are the three bastions of "oh my god please rework these animals they SUCK"

they're all SO clunky

[minor field]

And I main 2 of 3 of those

[limber hull]

LMAO

[sage plover]

RIP

[limber hull]

pachy out here literally got demoted to "herd animal"

a cerato with a mutation build can entirely invalidate it

[minor field]

Sentenced to herd animal niche

[minor field]

God mutations have actually made me despise playing cera so much cause it’s always the same brainless pick nocturnal and photosynthetic along with gastronomic and now you are an objective straight upgrade to regular cera

[limber hull]

:)

combat mutations are so fun and cool and engaging

i love how if i dont pick a speed mutation as pachy I will die to a cerato who has

[minor field]

Yup they’re so cool they’ve made me hate my favorite Dino in this game!

[limber hull]

who could've guessed that adding mutations that flat make you better at fighting would result in no other interesting builds being made

[minor field]

Same thing goes with stego while I’ve actually warmed up to playing it I feel that my only option is “Pick tactile endurance or get Diablo’d”

[limber hull]

my favourite part is tactical endurance wouldn't have been necessary if they didn't take stego's power swing and do a carno to it

[sage plover]

even with tactile endurance a dibble with more than 5 iq can still just 1v1 you and doesnt matter how skilled you are as steg, nothin u gonna do about it

[limber hull]

• nerf its stamina to an absurdly inefficient degree
• give it an absurd unnecessary cooldown
• make it worse at the one thing it is designed to do

literally the same thing

[boreal vessel]

fighting a dibble, even with 3-4 carnos right now is just ridiculous lol, something that should not be attempted. If a carno cant stand a 1v1 with a teno it has -0 chance wit ha dibble. I know from experience as both dibble and carno lol

[minor field]

It’s a lot more even than one might assume when it’s one on one. But the moment one extra dibble shows up you just like, die.

[sage plover]

@robust bloom #general-feedback message
This is already a thing, the less stam you have, the longer it takes to regen

[boreal vessel]

I remember my first time on HT when dibble dropped, i had my 60% carno and iwas like ohhh %$%^ look at this! And i learned the hard way that day lol

[minor field]

Because stego can “parry” dibbles brainlessly running at you with their powerswing and then punish with regular swings while they’re knocked over but the dibble can bait this out or just block the attack which devolves into a really stupid stare off where the stego is kinda waiting for the dibble to come at him so he can whack him

[robust bloom]

What I mean is the more kills over a short amount of time, the more penalty a person gets. Like the debuffs for stamina regen will keep increasing. -10% stam regen to -20% stam regen, etc. And that the stamina will drain faster as well when trying to continue attacking.

Exhaustion debuffs are needed dearly since kosing is a big problem is creature survival games as a whole.

[sage plover]

I could agree with this, but what happens when lets say something bigger is in an area, like allo, and has to kill a large amount of omnis in self defense or just to feed itself because it would need to kill a lot to fill itself

[robust bloom]

That is a valid point. Maybe the debuff could only count towards weight size? I mean, to be fair, it can be tiring for a large dino to take down multiple other larger dinos.

[sage plover]

true, that could work then and would be good

[robust bloom]

@solar salmon Dude, I agree. I got killed as my dino by those same people in the same place-

[edgy flax]

u could play on unofficials

[cedar drum]

@edgy flax @lyric pollen i mean if you are gonna disagree at least tell me why

@north bloom it’s not really all that much of a nerf for carno

[edgy flax]

i dont think it fits carno

[cedar drum]

Well why not

[north bloom]

1300kg and less speed is big nerf

[cedar drum]

It’s gonna be faster pal

And more agile

And have more stamina

[north bloom]

so why i saw like 49khm

[cedar drum]

Placeholder stats

[north bloom]

well i just hope they don't destroy carno

[cedar drum]

Fr

[edgy flax]

idk i think thats more of a rex thing

throwing things around

[cedar drum]

Rexes thing is brutally pinning and crushing stuff

[north bloom]

carno need a new attack with his head

[edgy flax]

and throwing things around

(maybe)

[cedar drum]

carnos thing is throwing and pushing stuff around in directions that they don’t want

Besides my suggestion wasn’t throwing stuff around, more like redirecting and pulling stuff around

[north bloom]

its logic carno are bruiser

[cedar drum]

Depends what you mean by bruiser

[north bloom]

see hes big head , he need to have more attack with his head

[cedar drum]

Carno uhh… carno has quite a small head relative to its size

[daring bolt]

but it has a massive biteforce irl

[cedar drum]

True-ish, it’s biteforce was quite weak at the front of the snout, but all the action was at the back of the snout

[limber hull]

outright flat not what carno's niche is. It's a runner/pursuit animal that relies on speed, not brute brawling power

[cedar drum]

Also why’d you downvote my suggestion, I’d like to know

[limber hull]

sounds exceptionally hard to code, animate and pull off in-game

and frankly, carno does not need an even slower alt-bite

[cedar drum]

Well, I didn’t mention changing the speed of the alt bite

[limber hull]

it's still slower

[daring bolt]

I think a speedier but weaker carno would make sense once the game had more smaller dinos but right now it should be more at the same level as Diablo and allo once it comes out

[cedar drum]

The attack doesn’t even need to be tied to the alt bite

[limber hull]

because you have to go throw the effort of grabbing, pulling and throwing the prey

[cedar drum]

It’s not really throwing

My intent was for it to be used by carno to gain more control over creatures while on the move

Less of a grap and throw, more of a grab and pull

[limber hull]

wouldnt ram be inherently better for that purpose

https://tenor.com/view/broly-dbz-dbs-goku-dragon-ball-z-gif-12851822

although i'm not against the idea of this as a carno move LMAO

[cedar drum]

Fair enough

It’s more just to keep carno up with all the other creatures

Just a little addition to carnos moveset

[wintry whale]

@mortal oak I like the idea, but would also limit that to certain dino species, mostly semi-aquatics

[mortal oak]

Good idea

[narrow field]

#general-feedback message
your first suggestion is already a thing in-game, but not for all the eggs.

[thorn elm]

If the Sucomimus is going to the isle Evrima. Please don’t make them have very slow stamina.

[icy lion]

@brave gale The page will be updated when evrima becomes the main branch

[brave gale]

well when does that happen? when evrima is in a suitable spot?

[icy lion]

The devs have said they at least want elders to be implemented before evrima replaces legacy

[brave gale]

that's cool, but I just mean the store page, not like deleting legacy outright

oh wait I see

[coarse spruce]

I mean yellow health isn't too bad

but a 60-80hp ptera would be nice

[barren zephyr]

Dilo

[blazing lagoon]

@cosmic wigeon should get ice spice

[cosmic wigeon]

bro go away

[blazing lagoon]

@cosmic wigeon

guess wha

[cosmic wigeon]

ong go away

[blazing lagoon]

@cosmic wigeon has a good feedback

[limpid shard]

Hello, could anyone tell me please, after the new update does Cera still need to release RMB for a charge bite or you now have to click LMB aswell in order to trigger maximum damage?

[blazing lagoon]

@cosmic wigeon

[marble quail]

#general-feedback message Dark Souls messages

[safe flower]

you just have to release it

[limpid shard]

Thank you

[safe flower]

np

[limber hull]

I’m pretty sure you had to press LMB last I checked lmao

[cosmic storm]

#general-feedback message I don’t think people understand how funny it would be to have a message say something like “no cliff ahead” and there’s just a cliff there.
Even better would be imagery which shows player actions after placing the message show up like in Eldin Ring, cause that’s absolutely amazing.
Not to say it’s a good idea for the immersion, but it would be absolutely hilarious and entertaining.
Someone just flying off a cliff after the message shows up would be hilarious.
Would add something else to the game that we can interact with other than fighting, nesting, and the character creator.
Personally I think it’s ingenious.

#general-feedback message also why are people against a maneater feature? It’s a great idea! Being invincible definitely won’t be a problem at all!

[limpid shard]

I tried it recently and it did feel like you deal full charge bite damage if you just release RMB

[cosmic storm]

#general-feedback message Discussion on progression anyone?

[urban flax]

Bad

It's just a crutch to force people to play under-powered and boring dinos

[cedar drum]

i mean... in a perfect world there wouldnt be any underpowered boring dinos

[limber hull]

i think the point is more "don't force people to play what they don't want"

although I personally like progression mode as an idea, and think with a more fleshed out roster + elders, it could work fine as an optional mode

[cosmic storm]

as a main gamemode, yeah, but the idea isn’t to replace survival, it’s to enable another gamemode which has more of a challenge to it. Maybe even an achievement that you get for playing all dinosaurs in it to incentivize beating it. It was such a good gamemode idea and I personally loved it more than current survival, as good as current survival is, if I want the ecosystem aspect… I don’t need to explain the lack of small herbivores that don’t exist, and with some people’s lack of appreciation for AI dinos to fill out an ecosystem, it seems like a better idea to use Progression to make a more enjoyable ecosystem experience that enables that ecosystem feel.

Additionally I enjoyed old school progression and wish that it hadn’t died out like it did. It’s such a shame that it did because it was far more interesting for an ecosystem than today’s survival which is always 99% strongest carnivores and 1% anything actually interesting. This isn’t because those dinosaurs are bad, it’s because people want a fight game, which The Isle is not. Troodon isn’t bad, people just don’t want to play it cause it’s small and they rather play a T-Rex instead, progression ensures that players don’t just play the most OP dino and leave all the others alone, it’s just simply better.
Maybe it is a crutch, but it’s a damned good one.

I don’t see as many stegos despite their power because everyone prefers carnivores, this is evidence that no, these dinos aren’t bad, people just don’t want to play them.

Seeing people so against the idea of another gamemode, especially a classic and fun one like Progression, is disappointing to say the least.

It also gave a bit more of a reason to play the game with more intentions other than just killing other dinosaurs because “there’s nothing else to do in the game”, the gamemode incentivized the survival that Don wants so bad so it’s clearly superior in the aspect, you want to get stronger dinosaurs.

[limber hull]

progression sucked hard in legacy and people can't really see past that

[cosmic storm]

Yeah

[limber hull]

i think the elder system honestly provides the PERFECT way to integrate progression in a way that actually interacts with the core gameloop

reach elder with your current dino to move to the next "tier"

[cosmic storm]

Definitely

Personally I do enjoy playing small animals in this game like Hypsi and Troodon because I do enjoy the survival aspect of all different creatures, it’s fun to try to see how long you can survive as a small dinosaur, especially if you’re trying to stay in a populated area where everyone is clustered. People really underestimate the fun of such a play style.

[limber hull]

im of the same opinion. I adore the little guys, my main complaint with them is that they are missing core mechanics (hypsi's climb, dryo's burrow, troodon's mimic)

although troodon i think is perfectly fun even without mimic

and for beipi, the problem i have with it is more about its current stats/mechanics simply being underwhelming. mechanically, it's fun

[cosmic storm]

Yeah

I haven’t touched the Beipi in so long

Might play it if it was part of a progression system winks aggressively
lol

[cosmic storm]

#general-feedback message
this is definitely not an argument to support me running around consuming humans as a totally docile parasaurolophus.

Lol, but all of what I said is true in my suggestion.

[boreal briar]

@cosmic storm I quite enjoy the thought of it being a mutation. Maybe if you eat too much it makes you puke from the indigestion, and it could be a secret mutation to be able to eat it. Not sure about diets, but it could be an alternative to eating grass, and let you fill your stomach even more.

[cosmic storm]

That is a cool idea

I should bring up, #general-feedback message there is almost as many cases of carnivores supplementing their diets with plants as herbivores supplementing their diets with meat, one of my first cases of learning of this was thanks to a religious gathering trying to, foolishly, prove that carnivorous animals were herbivorous in a certain garden, but they showed video footage of a shark consuming kelp. I later did research into this, many animals can, the only carnivores which I know that simply can’t eat plants are cats, most others still can supplement their diet with plants, and fruit, probably because it’s sweet, is the most common supplemented plant based on my own research.

[cosmic storm]

@boreal briar

Herbivores eating meat
Carnivores eating plants
Nature doesn’t care for arbitrary human rules and it’s come to the point, this should be integrated more into the video game ecosystem.

[boreal briar]

Yeah its true. Honestly when you mentioned the herbivores eating meat thing, it just reminded me of a video where a horse ate a baby chick
We like to catigorize stuff as A and B but honestly, a lot of animals eat whatever as you said, to suppliment diets as needed.

They just dont process it as well as their main diets, or as an omnivore would.

[cosmic storm]

All things in nature are a spectrum!

[cosmic storm]

Yes

This conversation got me thinking about an evolution simulation called The Bibits where they had a digestion feature which basically would fill the hunger space with food, and depending on how adapted the animal was to consuming meat or plants it would have certain benefits, and the bibits evolved to fill their diet with food that was less helpful to them to slow the digestion of food more helpful to them because of a bug that basically allowed them to survive longer.

Could be cool to see the current diet and hunger revamped to replicate that evolutionary bug-turned-feature.

Basically consuming less beneficial food slows digestion so you can in other words extend your hunger deterioration by consuming less beneficial foods.

#general-feedback message I am disappointed at how against the idea of animals not obeying arbitrary rules humans made up people are, it’s like they don’t like real nature.

Just gotta say all the stuff above again.

[cosmic storm]

starting here

[icy lion]

upvoted because it reminds me of spore an i love that game

[cosmic storm]

An alright game if I do say so myself.

[urban flax]

What I remember from this game is committing crimes against nature by exterminating entire civilizations through turning their planet into solid ice
Or molten lava

[icy lion]

yea that was fun too

[cyan flame]

But does it actually do something useful for the game? Game isn't really all that realistic, so what's the ingame point of letting players do it?

[indigo gulch]

“Carnivores eating fruit/plants” and look how well that worked for pandas 😄

also just because things work on a spectrum doesn't mean that 90% of the animals dont eat their supposed food

[cyan flame]

Doesn't really matter if it works for an animal or not, more relevant if it makes sense in the game and does something useful. The salt water drinking thing gives you a mutation, so there is that. Could do the same, but then do we want that? Would it be good, if we let carnis somehow sustain on plants, or herbis on meat. Or would it lead to gameplay that we might not want, or that won't result in behaviour according to nature in general.

[indigo gulch]

it probably would lead to that tbf.

[cyan flame]

If we let herbis eat meat, will we get proper "cannibal" herbis? If we let carnis sustain of plants, will we see even more of a "carni ecosystem only"

[cosmic storm]

Yes it does a lot useful for the game;

1. it increases engagement by allowing players to use more dinosaurs (ones they would otherwise avoid for being too “peaceful” or not gaining anything from killing)
2. Increases survival times of players allowing them to play more and spend a bit less time in a character creation screen or starving. Both which are aggressively harmful to new players and the overall environment of the game.
3. It allows players to be funny.

[indigo gulch]

it would make herbis like dibble be more meat eaters than plants eater probably

[cyan flame]

Which is the question, do we want that? Do we want more herbis killing other herbis, including their own kind? Do we want everyone go possibly go carni cause now you won't starve even if AI does not exist. And so on.

Yes, well, "funny" is not a good argument

Cause well, I could say being able to knock over stegos as dibble is funny, stego tipping, but it does not make for good balance or fun engagements for the stego player when dibbles can do that

[icy lion]

If you want it to have an actual use outside of "haha im throwing up now", it could be used as an absolute last resort in staving off starvation, with the downside of absolutely wrecking your body/stats/diets etc if you can't find appropriate food fast

Though this'd obviously have to come with a rework to grazing

[cyan flame]

That could work. Or mutations. I'm just saying, it's a game, so does it make sense in game. That's my entire point. And will it lead to behaviours we otherwise might not want. More carni popularity due to even more easy food. More herbi "cannibalism" now that it gives them actual food.

[indigo gulch]

1. That hasn't stopped anyone ever. Herbi's kill a lot of other herbis and carnis to begin with.
2. Starvation doesnt exist for herbivores to begin with, only losing diets. Carnivores have AI and hotspots for that AND migration.
3. Oh gee.

[limber hull]

I'll be honest about this omnivore spectrum stuff.

The realism/spectrum argument doesn't do it for me. I get it, it's cool, it's realistic, it's based on science, but as a game designer, I can't agree with it. It sets up rules and then proceeds to allow you to break them, forgoing restrictions like diet, nutrition, starvation, etc.

These are vital components to the gameloop. You're disrupting all of that and breaking the core most vital rules the game sets up from the getgo for a slight bit of realism. The design questions alone to even make this work make my head spin. Balance, kit design, survival strategies, encouraged gameplay, niches, etc, all are entirely thrown on their heads with a change like this.

While cool in concept, this single seemingly minor change would flip the entire design of the game's core components on its head and present a challenge far beyond anything the devs have had to tackle.

[cosmic storm]

1. Funny is a great argument and there’s plenty of games to prove it.
2. Yes, we do want that because people already will kill each other regardless, so it won’t affect the game that much.
3. With the path Don is taking The Isle, we might as well.

[indigo gulch]

now THIS sounds better

[indigo gulch]

but why would you ENCOURAGE it?

[cosmic storm]

This sounds alright

[icy lion]

I don't think it should be easy food, or even food at all. I referenced Spore earlier; in that, you can eat like a bite or two of non-diet food and then you just vomit

[cyan flame]

No, no it's not. Because it's entirely subjective. So what's funny is well, up to any one individual. Which we see, since we have very many different kinds and types of games, and variations from there too. And well, do we want people to kill each other like that? Not sure people do want that. Also not sure what the third point is meant to be?

[cosmic storm]

Why would I encourage players to play a game? Because I want players to play a game?

[icy lion]

At best, it should be a last resort that gives you a few precious minutes, and if you can't beat that timer you're way worse off

[indigo gulch]

Why would you encourage behaviour that is already ruining the fun for a lot of people?

[cyan flame]

I never got into spore, aside from first stage. Never could design something that at least looked like an actual critter so gave up xD

[limber hull]

It's a godawful argument with what you're presenting. Completely tearing to shreds a literal cornerstone mechanic which defines the gameloop for all species, and then saying "funny" is just a completely blind and immature way to justify it.

I don't think you understand how meaningful this change would be

[indigo gulch]

This is the first time I wholeheartedly agree.

[cyan flame]

Yes well, we do want people to play, but we also want them to play in a certain manner perhaps?

[cosmic storm]

Look at the current environment, what do people do? They don’t play herbivores, what I am encouraging might be negative by itself but in context of a current issue, it actually makes sense.

[limber hull]

It would be beyond anything The Isle has done. It would be the single most impactful change in the game's history beyond the idea to make it a dino survival and not a human survival

[icy lion]

I don't think it should be a universal thing, nor should it always be beneficial

[indigo gulch]

they don't play herbivores??? I think dibble alone has completely nullified that

[cyan flame]

You're right, carnis are far more popular, and that's an issue at least to me. But there are probably better ways to solve that than to make carnis and herbis more similar. We know what makes herbis popular too, good ability to kill.

[indigo gulch]

I saw more herbivores than carnivores today

[limber hull]

Even so, enabling it at all causes a myriad of problems

[cyan flame]

All you have to do to make herbi popular = make it as good at killing as the carni.

Because people want to kill, reward or no reward

[limber hull]

Let omnivores be omnivores, and the other two be unrealistically restricted to their food of choice. It's the safest option to prevent the game from undergoing an entire rework

[cyan flame]

Dibble actually being the op critter everyone accuses stego of, and sure enough, it's popular xD

[cosmic storm]

Stegosaurus and Dibble together are more powerful than a lot of others, no they don’t nullify the fact the only dinosaurs I came across recently were carnivores;
Raptor followed by cerato followed by harrera, followed by carno and dilo and not at all any herbivores for some reason. This is to say I disagree

[cyan flame]

For that matter, let omnis do this whole thing. Give them more carni/herbi options

[limber hull]

The solution to "not enough herbivores" should never be "make them carnivores instead"

[indigo gulch]

I dont get why it can do a 220 turn man, it's freaking ridiculous

[indigo gulch]

were you playing a carni? That would explain it I guess

[cyan flame]

Cause otherwise it'd be an obvious weakness, but we'll see how the changes will do

[cosmic storm]

Silent hypsilophodon

[indigo gulch]

yeah but 220 degrees for a 3ton animal, come on now

[indigo gulch]

does hypsi go across the map?

it's like the only dino I havent really played

[cosmic storm]

I don’t know where it goes, I just know it’s small and easy to run around and spectate others as in comparison.

[cyan flame]

What you get when other playables have to be as good as they are

[vale pawn]

Like as in its migration zones? Bc it has 7 all over the map

[cyan flame]

You can make herbis, and small carnis/herbis more popular, but it also means making survival way harsher and so on

[indigo gulch]

yeah that. It's one of the few I dont actively see

[cosmic storm]

The problem really is that, the game doesn’t need to be harsher, it’s already far too tough on new players. But it’s also not incentivizing smaller animals enough.

[indigo gulch]

it's a learning curve

[cyan flame]

@limber hullDid they ever try for officials without AI only?

[vale pawn]

Hypsi has Swamp, Eastern beach, Eastern Jungle, Northeast peninsula, Northern Jungle, West Rail, and Mudflats

[cosmic storm]

A very very very steep one.

[indigo gulch]

it's not that steep

[cyan flame]

But it does, it needs to be harsher for certain playables. It being rough on new players is not because it's harsh, but a lack of information on how to actually go about playing the game

[indigo gulch]

the worst part is learning the map and migrations

[cyan flame]

It's a different issue, that comes from the devs not wanting people to know stuff, due to "meta" and other reasons

[indigo gulch]

(because random cliffs :/ )

in that regard I was luckily to learn the game through spiro, cuse at least I could learn the basics without having to learn the whole map

but I genuinely think that, if the AI functions as it should, starvation is that big of a problem

you wanna know what the palm trees are? Well, run toward them and find out

[cosmic storm]

Aight, I quit, I’m making my own game because I can’t understand The Isle’s intentions based on their design choices sending mixed messages.

[indigo gulch]

I was waiting for the essay man, where did it go 😦

I was genuinely interested (no joke)

[cosmic storm]

I was going to discuss the realism and then I was going to discuss the difficulty and then the issue of current dinosaur niches not being incentivized, but ultimately decided it literally was all over the place so not worth discussing because it’s based on the mixed messages this game’s development has been slamming into my face with it’s style of taking detours and refusing to drive on the road, taking a bumpy parallel off-road route to trying to obtain what they’re making and slowly damaging the vehicle they’re attempting to drive in a way it’s simply not meant to drive.

It makes for a funny situation where it’s either arguing over arguments or arguing over ideas because apparently yall don’t like realism in your realistic dinosaur game which doesn’t exactly know what it’s trying to be besides a difficult dinosaur game with humans included eventually.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, this is a very bumpy ride.

[indigo gulch]

counterpoint: You cant physically put all the ''realism'' in the game while having fundamental mechanics

[cosmic storm]

That’s actually in agreement with my last statement about how bumpy this ride is.

[indigo gulch]

it's also not a necessary feature that would go above fixing the problems that are currently in the game

[cosmic storm]

Yeah

[indigo gulch]

but how are you gonna make a game with fundamentals then go ''oh but this exception'' ''oh but this is an exception'' ''oh but this is an exception''

that's gonna add to the learning curve even more

which, according to you, is already very steep

why would a new player, playing herbivore, bother to learn the whole migration/sanctuary thing when they can just kill a boar and live of that

[cosmic storm]

That is a good point

[indigo gulch]

I play league, have for a while now, and the reason that learning curve keeps growing is because it insists on adding new things to break older things.

[cosmic storm]

You missed the puke if you eat too much part of the discussion. You can’t live on it but you can supplement your diet temporarily with it.

[indigo gulch]

especially in a survival game, it is better to keep the fundamentals simple and straight

[cosmic storm]

Of course that’s why the learning curve argument is a good point.

[indigo gulch]

okay that's on me, I did actually miss that part

[cyan flame]

Welcome to the Isle! And I am serious, you're pretty spot on there. The Isle does pick and choose from what suits it. It's not a "realistic dino sim", it's supposed to be a hardcore survival horror game, with playable dinosaurs, humans and some other critters. As such, realism is used when it fits the vision, and discarded in other cases. On top of the whole "it's a game" reasoning which means balance and other things has to be taken into account, no matter if its realistic or not at times.

[boreal briar]

@fair cypress I feel like its best if they need to land to drink, unless its like, filling up to 20% or something. It takes away too much of the danger, because you can just fly away from any predator really.

Same kind of goes for eating, you can cling to a tree and eat for no stamina loss, so it's just a fair opportunity to be attacked really.

Everyone is vulnerable while drinking, I think its more fair that way.

[cosmic storm]

Sounds about the size of it.

[fair cypress]

That's the point of ptera you have to be in move and pteras need mobility and it's really not natural having to land to drink since pelicans do it without landing

[fair cypress]

Yeah better make pteranodon fly only when at 20% hp

[urban flax]

Um
Ptera is not a pelican
It already is functionally immortal, allowing it to drink without landing makes it so it basically never needs to put itself at risk

[fair cypress]

That's just not logical, pteras are most likely 1 shot from every dino in the game and why put itself at risk? It's just less fun then

[fair cypress]

Close relatives

[urban flax]

It's fun because a survival game in which you cannot die is boring

[urban flax]

LOL
Stegosaurus is a closer relative to pelican than pteranodon is

[fair cypress]

you can die if you're too cocky

[cosmic storm]

I agree, but I will argue dying in The Isle is too easy I think.

[fair cypress]

Dude they got similar beak also they fly wdym

[urban flax]

You can die only if you decide you want to

[boreal briar]

huh? No i meant cap the amount of water you can get from skimming, like how grass only fills X amount

[fair cypress]

It was satire

[urban flax]

They haven't got a similar beak
And not everything that flies is a close relative to each other

[fair cypress]

not similar?

[urban flax]

not really

[fair cypress]

Not only pelicans drink while in flight

[urban flax]

But even if it was, it's more of a game design issue than a realism one

[fair cypress]

That's why I'm giving feedback...

[urban flax]

Ptera doesn't need to be able to drink while flying
Because it makes it even more immortal than it already is

[fair cypress]

Ptera is weak enough so at least make it more fun - You can always die from stam loss

[urban flax]

Drinking is one of the very few moments where ptera is at any risk of dying

[urban flax]

But being immortal makes it less fun

[fair cypress]

Anyways why would anyone want to even kill a ptera

[fair cypress]

less fun?

[urban flax]

Because they can

[fair cypress]

Oh then they can drink water while flying cus they can

Idk what's your problem i'm trying to add a cool feature wdym

[urban flax]

The fun in survival game comes from risking, and avoiding death
If there's no risk of death there's no game
And that's why people complain ptera is a spectator cam
There is no risk involved in playing it

And that's also why dryo players complined when dryo was the fastest creature of the island
There was zero risk in playing it, therefore zero fun

[fair cypress]

Ptera is a spectator cam cus it's a flying dino

[urban flax]

When Dondi announced it was being turned into a more terrestrial creature I wasn't a fan of it at first but now I think it'll make it more interesting
More things to do, more things to interact with

[fair cypress]

So you'd like me to land between these dinos and risk death instead of drinking water while doing dis

[urban flax]

yes

[fair cypress]

You are crazy.

[urban flax]

But you can also land somewhere else

[fair cypress]

Why the hell would I need to land while I got freaking wings

[urban flax]

Maybe you just don't like survival games ?

[fair cypress]

Maybe I just like to not risk death since it's a SURVIVAL game and I have to SURVIVE

[urban flax]

Risking death doesn't necessarily mean dying

[fair cypress]

There's just no sense in arguing with you

[urban flax]

I'm pretty sure there is

I don't know what about anything I said makes no sense

[fair cypress]

Why do flying dinos need to land to drink water? Isn't this what wings are also for

🤦‍♂️

[urban flax]

game design

[cyan flame]

Yes, because the former adds more risk. And you could rather easily find another spot at that.

[fair cypress]

I'm tweakin rn

[cyan flame]

That's why you pick and choose the spot where you land

[urban flax]

You need to ask yourself the question, what is survival ?

[cyan flame]

Which would be part of survival

[vale pawn]

Pteranodon is pretty much immortal if it doesnt need to come down to drink rn

[cyan flame]

Played dryo recently, trying to get food in the swamp with herreras in the trees was an interesting experience

[fair cypress]

But that's just not fun to do since you need to land and waste even more stamina and then having to sit for 5 minutes

[urban flax]

Give me your definition, because if I take our conversation as a basis, you don't agree with this one

[cyan flame]

But it does show that part of survival in the game, is to be wary, cautious and to make the best decision on where and when to do something

Removing that decision by making it even easier to do something than it is, is not helpful for a survival game I don't think at least

[fair cypress]

Nah I'm not even arguin with you guys rn

[tight iron]

ptera is useless

[vale pawn]

Thats more of a stamina thing, plus even then personally being on the ground is the most I get any feeling out of Pteranodon, really gets some adrenaline running in wondering if I am safe or not

[tight iron]

if you kill a ptera it's for fun

there is no damage in adding that feature

[urban flax]

It just makes ptera even less interesting

[fair cypress]

Welp if you want more adrenaline just it'll be better to make you drink only if your entire beak is in water so there's a chance you fall in the water IT'LL MAKE THE ADRENALINE PUUUMP

[tight iron]

interesting for who and what

[cyan flame]

Useless for what? We're purely talking about ease of staying alive, not sure it's useless there, unless you're talking about stamina only?

[urban flax]

ptera players

[tight iron]

nuh uh

[tight iron]

it does nothing, it adds nothing to the ecosystem

[urban flax]

And I guess that's why it's being turned into a more terrestrial critter

[fair cypress]

How?

[proud coral]

[cyan flame]

Kind of fair, which would be fixed by making it more interactive with the rest, which the rework might do

[urban flax]

Do I really need to explain it a third time ?

[tight iron]

and i wish it does

[vale pawn]

I have a pretty good time skimming so i wont have any issue falling in water exept if i really do just miss a skill check randomly

[cyan flame]

It would not help by making it even more removed from the rest at the very least

[fair cypress]

So instead of having a cool original feature you want it to drink like a normal land dino?

[urban flax]

Again, yes.

[tight iron]

but my good sir you do realize dying doenst make smth more interesting

[fair cypress]

You can drink both while flying and on land btw

it's your decision then

[vale pawn]

Plus, cant you just stack a bunch of drinking mutations for a no-drinking pteranodon set

[urban flax]

It's not about dying
It's about playing the survival game like it's a survival game and actually having to overcome risks

[urban flax]

You wish it was that simple

[cyan flame]

To be fair, if deino could lunge up, and we had other semiaquatics that could intercept and otherwise catch you, then it would be a better situation

[tight iron]

to me it sounds like making it unnecessarily difficult

[cyan flame]

Then you could have both options with their own risks

[urban flax]

It's not like ptera is difficult in the first place

[tight iron]

thats the point

[fair cypress]

That's why I said you can only drink when the entire beak is in water so other dinos can grab you

[urban flax]

I'd rather say it's the easiest thing to play right now

[tight iron]

smol bird that lets you enjoy your time without having to worry way too much

[urban flax]

Would be perfect for
another game

[fair cypress]

hell nawh I'm with ymii

[cyan flame]

Fair enough then, I wouldn't mind it as long as there's proper risk to it. Though I might consider only adding this when there are more things in the water than just deinos and beipis. Or let beipis eat pteras, so they have a reaason to hunt pteras!

[tight iron]

herrera is a bit easier i'd say

[tight iron]

would be perfect for this game*

[urban flax]

Nah, herrera needs to kill things to survive

[cyan flame]

Speaking of herreras, are they faster than dryos on land normally?

[urban flax]

This game isn't about chilling without worrying

[tight iron]

so does ptera

[vale pawn]

Same speed

[urban flax]

I think herrera is supposed to be pretty slow on land

[tight iron]

both can eat the same things

[cyan flame]

Hm, guess the ones I ran into had the mutation then, kept nibbling my tail xD

[tight iron]

but herrera isnt 1 shot to everything so

[vale pawn]

Troodon Herrera and Dryo are all 45km

[urban flax]

Ptera gets full with three schooling fishes, which are basically an animated plant
I don't count that as "needing to kill things"

[cyan flame]

Apparently so is dryo :/

[tight iron]

herrera also eats fishe

[vale pawn]

I wouldnt say 45 is slow

[urban flax]

I'm pretty sure dryo will get some love one day

[vale pawn]

Anything below 45 is slow

[tight iron]

im aware, but it's not also about making things unnecessarily painful

or is it

[urban flax]

Since when is drinking like any other creature unnecessarily painful ?

[tight iron]

dying to something that doesnt need to kill you

growing a bird for 1h 10 mins

hatchling troodon decides "yknow what cmere"

ded

[urban flax]

None of these issues are related to ptera needing to land to drink

[fair cypress]

yeah also swallowing while flying is good actually

[cyan flame]

Agreed. Makes for a better scavenger. Drop, grab a bite, fly away and eat, circle and come back. Repeat until full, or caught and killed.

[tight iron]

they are the way most pteras die

[urban flax]

Well there isn't really any other way a ptera can die so...

[tight iron]

so that is related to ptera needing to land to drink

[vale pawn]

Actually, its pecking at things they are fully aware can jump

[tight iron]

that some goobers say "yknow what, youre a bird so you dont deserve to live" and kill you

having a playable that's super easy to play and lets you learn doesn't harm anyone

[urban flax]

But if that playable doesn't allow you to learn how the game is played then it has no purpose

[tight iron]

it does allow you to learn things like the map, where people are, etc

[urban flax]

What you're supposed to learn in this game is things like
-watch out for predators
-drinking is dangerous
-you need to manage your hunger
-You need to plan your migrations across the map
Ptera teaches none of that to new players

Or rather, it would teach none of that if it could drink while flying, because "drinking is dangerous" is the only check here

[tight iron]

and many many more things

[fair cypress]

Ptera teaches how to manage stamina, grabbing fish is also dangerous since you can fall in water

[tight iron]

you dont need to learn that drinking is dangerous by dying

thats the thing about ptera, it does nothing but get killed by goobers who dont like you

[fair cypress]

yh ikr

[urban flax]

It is in the first 5 minutes of playing ptera
Once you've learned how to do it, not that much
Also it's not a thing that really applies to any other playable

Who said you needed to die ?

[tight iron]

you imply that it's good that you learn that drinking is dangerous by dying while drinking

[urban flax]

Please don't confuse taking risks and dying

[tight iron]

well if ive said that it's useless and frustrating to learn it that way, and you don't want anything done about it because it's a good thing in your opinion, then you have the opposite view of mine, meaning it's reasonable to believe that you imply that it's good that you learn that drinking is dangerous by dying while drinking

[fair cypress]

not 5 minutes, if you land and fly again you lose a lot of stamina so you have to stay in flight for most of the time

[fair cypress]

I'm having a stroke reading that lol

[tight iron]

skull

[urban flax]

I mean, the suggested alternative here is "don't ever learn anything unless you play another playable"
Which would probably take longer to grow and therefore be more frustrating to lose when dying because you were drinking carelessly
Which is bound to happen at some point

[tight iron]

it's quite the opposite, ptera is a great learning dino

[urban flax]

Great for learning what, apart from the map layout ?

[tight iron]

extremely easy to play, so, for newcomers, it's great

[tight iron]

people's behavior, where to find people, map layout as you mentioned, and so on

[fair cypress]

Bro, I just flew between 2 trees after trying to hit a small beipi, but I somehow hit something and I fell to my death cus a deino was next to me

[tight iron]

💀

the isle

[cosmic storm]

10/10 would slam into invisible again

[icy lion]

@zealous steppe There's currently a cannibal mutation, and cannibalizing without it causes debuffs

[limpid breach]

@edgy flax yessss and also make beipi babies little fluff nuggets 🙏

[limpid breach]

https://tenor.com/view/fluffy-funny-owl-running-fat-gif-23775574

[latent olive]

@wooden agate I think it’s on carno’s diet because it’s easy prey as a juvenile

[safe flower]

i also think that it can be taken down in packs which might be what the devs are going for considering the concept @wooden agate

[wooden agate]

you cant convince me the carno which is getting downsized to 1300kg and given a new kit specifically for small game hunting is supposed to be taking down grown dibbles

the fact its on carno diet is just odd

the fact its missing on cerato diet is even odder

haha, odder

[safe flower]

many animals have very lage prey on there diet that should be aken down in packs

[wooden agate]

https://tenor.com/view/otter-otter-aty-petting-head-pat-gif-26796568

[vale pawn]

Otter

[safe flower]

i do agree tho. cera should be on carnos diet

[wooden agate]

are those animals specifically meant to be a menace to small game

[wooden agate]

i did not say that

[safe flower]

oh i misread mb

but utah is a small game hunter alone, and a large game hunter together

[wooden agate]

omnis entire point is to be in packs and punch up severely

carno is not

[safe flower]

animals can have a multitude of behaviors

[wooden agate]

putting diablo on carno diet only encourages it to leave its intended niche

[safe flower]

if this game is pushing for realism like it often says it is, it would show that.

[wooden agate]

we have a climbing herrerasaurus, realism is out the window

[safe flower]

that s an interpretation. foxes climb

[cyan flame]

It's not

[safe flower]

last time i checked it was

[wooden agate]

https://tenor.com/view/kurt-angle-stare-100-yard-stare-meme-gif-251436459491629941

[wooden agate]

check again lol

[safe flower]

i might be misinformed

[wooden agate]

the graphic system and physics are somewhat based in realism. the animals themselves are not

[safe flower]

that is true

[wooden agate]

and when youre redesigning an animal to entirely be based around hunting game smaller than it, its diet should reflect that

[cyan flame]

Well then you might need to take another look, unless you consider hypers, mutant "humans" or god only knows what critters, venomous critters that never had venom for real, playables that do not work at all like their real life versions, and a magical "replicator" that makes everything, somehow... to be perfectly realistic

Some parts are more realistic, or less, than others, but it all goes by "does it make sense for the games vision", more or less

[safe flower]

however the changes to carno are unnescsary in my opinion, and i also do not think that carno is mean to ONLY kill small game, small to mid game would be the option that makes the most sense

[cyan flame]

Couldn't you hunt some "mid" tiers in packs, even with the changes?

[wooden agate]

its meant to exceed at hunting small game, and be subpar at hunting things larger than it

[safe flower]

yes that is what im saying

[wooden agate]

and diablo is not midgame to carno at all, especially with these weight and damage changes

[safe flower]

i think the diablo should stay on carnos diet in packs

[cyan flame]

Well, diablo is pretty much high "mid tier" or something currently, it's very powerful, but might be doable to take down by a trio of carnos if you find one and it doesn't put itself in a good defensive spot

[wooden agate]

mid tier when considered with the entire roster, not when comparing it to carno

[safe flower]

the changes are unnescary, if they immplemented carno at a time where larger carnis existed this might not have happened

[safe flower]

this is literally exactly what i am saying

[wooden agate]

the changes are nessecary to put carno into the niche they want

which its failed to be in since the day it released

could a pack of carnos kill a diablo? sure i guess. but i dont think you should be rewarded that heavily for going outside your niche. the organs it gives is enough :P

[safe flower]

well in my personal opinion i think the changes are unnescaryfor the animal that almost the whole community wants

[wooden agate]

community wants are overridden by dev vision for the game

[safe flower]

that is not healthy game design

[cyan flame]

Might be easier with better charge honestly

Just do hit/run on the dibbles rear

[wooden agate]

if we went purely on community wants, we'd be exactly where we were in legacy.

[safe flower]

you should take community responses and dev opinions both into acount when making a game

that is why i think dondi has done a rather poor in leading the team

[cyan flame]

Depends on what your aim is. The game has always been Dondis ideal game, not anyone elses. We're just along for the ride. But that is part of why we get server options, mods and stuff later on.

So any unofficial can do whatever it wants, more or less

[cyan flame]

And yet, he's managed to create quite the popular game

[wooden agate]

which is why community servers are insanely customizable and will only become more customizable

if you play on official, you're going to play the devs vision for the game

[wooden agate]

usually averaging the 150th most played game on steam

[safe flower]

this is alll my personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt

or an ounce

[cyan flame]

Also they do, we wouldn't have what we have if we went by Dondis vision as it was in the first place

[wooden agate]

this is true

[cyan flame]

Since the vision back then was humans, maybe the tribals, and three playable carnivores, a raptor, a megaraptor, and a rex. Oh and before then it was humans only even, or so I've heard.

[safe flower]

i dont think i have ever seen a dev talk to someone about the general feedback channel

but we have gotten off track

[cyan flame]

So, the whole playable herbis, and well, dino sim in general, is because of feedback and community

[wooden agate]

lets be real, most of the feedback in there... isnt great

there are some good ones however, infact you can find some that have been added

[safe flower]

i would love to hear them

[wooden agate]

there was a suggestion to add those freaky high trees to highlands, and it was added there in a later update

[safe flower]

if you can provide some BALANCE examples, which i apolgise i should have stated, that would be great.

[wooden agate]

i dont read balance feedback, that place is hell

[safe flower]

the point i am trying to make is that carno should not hunt small teirs lik dryo and other such playables, A because noone plays them and B make them give you more food

[wooden agate]

small game is pretty much anything smaller than carno. its not just dryo and hypsi lol

[safe flower]

when i see the devs start forming a plan instead of just wanting to add more dinos i will beleive that they arent just using this animal as a punching bag

[cyan flame]

To be fair, if we let players balance, we'd be in sincere trouble

[safe flower]

ofcourse but there are some gwnuineley good ideas i have seen

[wooden agate]

we've seen what the community servers have done to mutations

[cyan flame]

Oh, I'd like to see which ones you consider good

[safe flower]

which ones do you think i consider good?

[cyan flame]

Didn't a single one just disable them, or disable all the combat ones? Would have been nice to play on that server

[safe flower]

you can look in general feed back and you will see

[cyan flame]

Yeah, curious, that's all

Especially for balance ideas

[wooden agate]

not sure, but some have done horrid things to them. 15% photosynthetic mutation

[safe flower]

grooss

[cyan flame]

Carno has been plenty good throughout this games history, in progression, in legacy, and in evrima too

[cyan flame]

Speed one, right?

[safe flower]

in legacy in the early days it was good, as someone who plays carno now and back then i can tell you that i had fun

but i am worried about it now

[wooden agate]

the only thing that actually concerns me with carno changes is the fact it'll be pinned easier, but thats moreso just pounce to pin being stupidly overpowered

[safe flower]

everyrthing else in the isle i could see real potential for. but if they thought about when to add them intead of when they were dont i think (imo) it would be much better

and i can agree with you on some things like the pin.

it just worries me what road this might lead down

[wooden agate]

thankfully the changes will make it EXCEL at hunting omnis, gallis, dilos, etc. literally anything smaller than it in open plains is about to see an angry bullet train running at it at mach 20

[safe flower]

thats what i like, but maybe being able to hunt teno woulnt be a step to far dont you think

?

[wooden agate]

2 carnos? sure, its feesible i guess

[cyan flame]

Depending on teno changes, maybe that'll still be a thing

Might get downsized too

[safe flower]

no i think one carno should be able to take on a teno

[wooden agate]

solo carno should definitely struggle against teno

[safe flower]

if they play there cards right ofcourse

[wooden agate]

i think 2 carnos should struggle a little if the teno is good but it should be a pretty decent match up in carnos favor

depending on how large maia is (im thinking in the low 2k range?) 3 carnos could maybe take it down, but it would heavily be in maia favor... probably

depends on maia attacks + if maia is actually unchargable

[cyan flame]

Well, a carno at 1.3T isn't going to be charging very large critters without stunning itself I don't think so

[wooden agate]

this is true, maia is just shown to specifically be immune to charge via carno in concept so

maybe if you ram maia you get a longer stun? i dunno

[safe flower]

too fat

dino version of the blob

[wooden agate]

god i just hope maia is fast again

my speedy boy

[cyan flame]

Only for it to die to three omnis in a grapple or so

[wooden agate]

[vale pawn]

Semi truck maia

[limber hull]

if it can't do it now, it's absolutely not doing it while it's bigger than it

also i agree that diablo should not be on the diet list of carno because even if it "hunts in packs", charging a diablo will literally stun you, deal zero damage, and actually do recoil to you, while the prey gets a free counterattack

diablo ain't anywhere on carno's list, pack or not

[safe flower]

if you really look at a carno, even just b eyeballing it, you can see that 3 would be enough to kill a dibble, i dont know where this steryotype came from that carno is a small game hunter or why dondi is so heavily pushing it. its the silliest thing ive heard in this game, but not silly cool like mutants or canibals. just... sad

[limber hull]

brother, it's a niche

it's not supposed to be based on realism or stereotypes

it's what the devs want carno to fulfil in the game itself

[safe flower]

yeah but why this niche? it seems so stupid looking at it

i mispoke when i said steryotype, its a dumb way to implement the largest land carnovore in your game to be meant to hunto things that bareley fill up its food

[limber hull]

because it is both larger and faster than most of our fastest creatures, and is one of the few creatures that could reasonably be expected to catch them

[cosmic storm]

Ok, but here’s a different thing to consider; what if different life stages of dinosaurs filled slightly different niches?

[safe flower]

this is a good idea

[limber hull]

already a thing they're working on for many creatures

[safe flower]

like megs tree climbing in juvi stages

[cosmic storm]

They should work on it for current creatures

[limber hull]

megalania and rex are two of the biggest examples

[safe flower]

carno could have its diet change throughout its life

i actually havent even thought bout that thats a really good idea

[limber hull]

i'd hope we don't get something like that. no need to overcomplicate the diet system further

[safe flower]

i dont think its over complicating, as its only one creature, and all its doing is changing the diets

[limber hull]

some cases it's just kinda not really a thing they can do

beipi and galli, to some extent, do have this. Juvi galli is just as fast as adult galli, but with near infinite running stamina. It is the speed king, going anywhere it pleases. As an adult, however, it's far more capable of fighting and self-defence.

Juvi beipi has crazy good breaching height and speed as a juvi, which becomes less powerful as it grows older. Unfortuantly, its combat prowess isn't enough to make that transition super meaningful, and just makes the baby version more fun

[safe flower]

why couldnt they do thi with carno?

[cosmic storm]

Give me an example of a dino and I’ll make a niche

[limber hull]

Diets are already exceptionally unintuitive, having them change spontaneously at specific growth point seems like a bad idea. And why for carno of all creatures?

[wooden agate]

do ummmm homalo

i like homalo

[safe flower]

because its in need of something that settles both parties

[wooden agate]

i like the idea of it using its fat head as a burrow door

"you're on door duty"
"but MOOOOM I DONT WANNA"

[cosmic storm]

Homalo & juvi pachy could both fill a similar niche of being able to hide in burrows.

[wooden agate]

practical? no

funny? yes

[safe flower]

one party not liking it actually being able to hunt and be a fun playable, and the other one wanting it to be a powerful predator

[cosmic storm]

burrowing is highly practical

[wooden agate]

or they could just play the animal that actually fits their playstyle instead of trying to force two niches onto one animal

[wooden agate]

i meant the head door

[cosmic storm]

ah, lol

[limber hull]

what?

[safe flower]

idk man

[limber hull]

what party doesn't want carno to be fun LMAO

all i've wanted for this entire year is for carno to be fun

it's been garbage this entire year with no changes to its godawful kit

[safe flower]

but your arguingfor carno to hunt small game?

[limber hull]

yes

i fail to see how these elements are mutually exclusive at all

[safe flower]

that is an unfun playstyle

[limber hull]

okay so let me introduce you to an idea

subjectivity

what YOU find fun is not always what EVERYONE finds fun

[wooden agate]

excelling at hunting every animal under 1000kg is fun to me idk

[safe flower]

perhaps the same gos for you

[wooden agate]

im about to shred every single omniraptor and dilophosaurus i see

[limber hull]

the most fun i have had with carno is running down omniraptors/gallis/dilos/etc and turning them to mince meat

[limber hull]

i never implied it didn't. subjectivity is universal

[safe flower]

good just making sure

you also woulndt have fun fighting a teno

[limber hull]

you already don't LMAO

teno currently just obliterates carno with zero real contest

[safe flower]

a slightly more risk one where the odds shloud be 60/40 in carnos favor?

[limber hull]

bro what

absolutely not, carno should NOT be favoured in that fight

[safe flower]

that shouldnt happen, carno is bigger, and should generally be able to kill teno

[wooden agate]

not for long

[limber hull]

carno has speed. it can select to attack/retreat/engage. teno CANNOT flee, so it MUST be able to fight

[wooden agate]

not every animal is going to be everyones cup of tea. if you want a big brawler thats hunting large things, you may wanna wait for rex/allo to come out

[limber hull]

fight or flight is the name of the game in Isle balance

no flight? must fight

no fight? must flee

[safe flower]

yes but perhaps carno can ALSO fight

[cosmic storm]

#general-feedback message
Niche partitioning ideas to make babus stronger;

1. Super high stamina
2. Super high stamina regeneration
   (reflecting the tendencies of baby animals to be super playful and active)
3. Decent speed (especially after exiting the hatchling stage) to give them a small advantage where they can get away from larger predators slightly easier
4. Better abilities to compete against or escape other small animals of similar sizes

[safe flower]

just cause one creature can fight5 doesnt mean the other shouldnt

it can go both ways

[limber hull]

sure, carno can

it's just not going to have a great time

[wooden agate]

if the fight is in carnos favor, teno simply dies

[limber hull]

which just means no one plays teno and instead just picks up carno because

• faster
• stronger
• better

[safe flower]

carno is a ambush predator, but even if you get the drop on a teno you cant kill it, theyve ruined it in such away where it cant even fight its matchup that wuld literally make the most sense

dumb

[wooden agate]

carno is not an ambush predator

[limber hull]

carno is a pursuit predator. the ambush ideology has always been bizarre to me

[wooden agate]

its a prusuit predator. cant exactly ambush in an open field where you're meant to be

[safe flower]

generally its easier to ambush in gateway

[limber hull]

it was easier on spiro imho

[safe flower]

bush's help as cover and such

[cosmic storm]

Carno is a pursuit predator in nature, it was built like a cheetah if it was focused around throwing it’s weight forward over nimble athleticism. Both in game and in real nature.