general-feedback-discussion

[jagged sleet]

Np! Let me know if you have any questions I might be able to help

[cyan flame]

@elfin axle Pachy should not be weak to bleed again, there's no real reason for that. Carno charge radius is fine, it's the hitbox and other things that need some work, but prior charge was no good. Omni is more than fine, it does not need more strength (and any mobility change was not intended, if there is any). Dryo is the only playable out of them all that needs some actual help, and it mostly needs less stamina drain on dodge and maybe some extra run time, or slightly more speed.

[sage yew]

a bit more stam for omni maybe, numbers might be fine
but using agility just drains it super fast

[jagged jewel]

@sage yew That would be quite a hard thing to code in, no?

Specially considering it's a multiplayer game

[sage yew]

to what are you referring?

[jagged jewel]

Interactive pinning and lunging

[sage yew]

As the L4D example is an multiplayer game, I currently don't see any reason why it shouldn't be translatable into a Dino game

[jagged jewel]

Because L4D is a triple A game and took significantly less time and effort in the making of a mechanic like that, and the context is quite different

It’s one thing for valve to do it with human characters, and it’s another for like 4 programmers here to do it with animals

[sage yew]

only a dev could give us some insight, I really don't know

[jagged jewel]

I mean you don’t really need to be a dev to think this makes sense

More dev and simpler context = easier and less time

Less devs and more complex context/characters = more effort and time

[burnt bone]

@swift atlas my main issue with that idea is that it seems to be tedious for the sake of tedium and it punishes people for being forced to fight.

It just seems to force people to go specific places after a fight, which either makes them an easy target for people camping the herbs or water, or it just doesn’t do anything but delay the healing process. So I don’t see the issue this would solve, if there is an issue you’re trying to solve.

Also, it punishes people for a necessary interaction with all species. Carnivores then need to go travel more after a fight, which just means they have to abandon their meal or eat it all in 1 sitting and risk getting in another fight. For herbivores it forces them to stop what they were going to do and instead go heal, when it wasn’t even their choice to fight anyway.

[swift atlas]

that's the point, carnis eat it in one sit unless it's diet is almost ending and they will wait. Herb just walk and eat rn. the issue is people not worrying about fighting all the time, and it's not a specific place, same as food wont be at specific place all the time.

[sage yew]

if it's done like a "healing place", but when those herbs are scattered like anything else, basically included into the fauna?
But beside the healing requirements, giving more depth into wounds and healing, doesn't sound bad at all

and yes, picking up a fight for the sake of fighting, should make consequences and even be punishing, as fighting should be avoided as much as possible unless it's necessary

[swift atlas]

just check when you fight, you wont be nearly dead every time, some times is easy snack, some times is a big fails

[sage yew]

fighting shouldn't be so streamlined, that it not even needs a second thought

[swift atlas]

people should die for making the math wrongly why hunting

this was a idea i've cooking fow a while, just decide to describe it better, nothing there is set on stone.

another good point, i'm considering a bigger cicle of life, growth rn is too fast

[sage yew]

agree, but that's maybe just a temporary thing, as it makes the pre-alpha experience somewhat more enjoyable, but I definitely don't want this for the final game, once mechanics are in place

as growing up, should be interesting on it's own

[swift atlas]

yeah, for sure, but i still would like a infection/illness system in future, specially because will have that cool Scar system, that could fit really well with my wound thing

[sage yew]

agree, as always being 100% and fighting others with 100% is just plain

[swift atlas]

i've experience healing care during all over other survival games, one harder than others, but that was never boring, was part of the game and with some balance and care, can be really interesting

one game that i rememeber having a system close to what i described about the infection activation is "the flame in the flood"

[sage yew]

not to mention that a 0-100% health mechanic is just super one dimensional

[swift atlas]

a scratch can become a infection without care

[sage yew]

wallow in mud, or in dust to speed it up
maybe let be groomed by others if it's a social species

[swift jacinth]

Question (people in the isle discussion channel are just... talking about planes and weed it seems). Do hypsi's have zero night vision I can't find anything about it online and no one is responding in the appropriate channels? It went night and well... everything be black and my night vision wouldn't come on (but I know form playing ptera that it works a bit at least normally)

[swift atlas]

we have infinite possibilities, i tried to be simple to not need a loooot of work

[gentle flint]

It does have night vision

Have you tried Relogging?

[sage yew]

typical discussion channel

[swift jacinth]

I just logged out cause um... i started hearing raptors lol

[gentle flint]

XD well I’d restart your game just to be safe

[swift jacinth]

and you know... no point sitting in the dark waiting to die

[sage yew]

it's all about the "vibes", I get it

[gentle flint]

If you can’t find a fix from that try #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧

[swift jacinth]

I was using the wrong button like an idiot

[gentle flint]

Lmao fair enough

[burnt bone]

Adding stuff like this can make the resources needed for healing easily campable if they aren’t spread out a lot. And if they are spread out everywhere, then what’s the point of the system instead of health lock?

I still feel the current health lock is enough personally, since it makes you already worse in a fight and want to avoid them. Also, being forced to go to rivers after most fights sounds like a death sentence because of the abundance of deinos.

Also, speaking of deinos, how are they supposed to get herbs? They’re slow on land, can’t smell plants, and are already weak from a fight, being spotted by a stego is basically instant death.

[swift jacinth]

I ... assumed it was N without double checking cause... it made sense to me lol.... thanks for actuallyhelping lol..

[gentle flint]

Yeah np, I was going to respond in the discussion channel originally but so many people were typing I assumed one would answer you.

[sage yew]

"Adding stuff like this can make the resources needed for healing easily campable if they aren’t spread out a lot."

Just spread it out then

[feral solstice]

What’s the topic

[sage yew]

dynamic wound and healing mechanics, yes or no

[gentle flint]

#general-feedback message I believe?

[feral solstice]

Depends on what that means

[burnt bone]

While I do agree fighting for no reason should be a bad idea, punishing those who are forced to fight is also a bad idea. Like should a stego be punished for winning a fight it didn’t have a chance to escape from?

[sage yew]

"Also, speaking of deinos, how are they supposed to get herbs? They’re slow on land, can’t smell plants, and are already weak from a fight, being spotted by a stego is basically instant death."

They nibble on algee

[feral solstice]

Never mind, read the suggestion… and I dunno

[sage yew]

less impact full on hunters
while social animals suffer more, so they have a profit from a herding

[burnt bone]

Then like I said, if they are spread out everywhere, then what is the point of forcing people to go to them? It just adds an extra step rather than sitting down and healing.

[feral solstice]

On one hand, it sounds like locked health on steroids.
Another, it sounds a bit too tedious

[swift atlas]

the point is adding more stuff to do instead of just sit and wait, food will be spread out, this can be too. We can create things that does the same close to rivers, deinos are not locked inside the rivers, super population of deinos is one of the issues this would help to solve. Deinos wont be taking a sun bath while they eat each other forever

[sage yew]

extra steps are good, more to do
why make everything into a "one click solution"

[median kite]

i need help

[swift atlas]

deinos super population is just one of the big issue of not having down sides on PVP, they group together, no matter if you almost kill one of the 3 attacked you, they you sit and wait and no one will do nothing

[median kite]

im stuck in a tree lol

[feral solstice]

Plus there are already mechanics in place to do these things.
Health regeneration is slowed the less blood you have, and you have to heal more if your healthpool gets locked.

So adding another health regen slowdown would probably be too much at that point

[sage yew]

I think the deino phenomena are a result of some temporary factors
for example the map

[swift atlas]

that too

[gentle flint]

Try checking out #evrima-na (or whichever respective area you may be from) and then checking the pins for help unstucking
If you want, you can try Relogging and moving out from the trees before they load in, or if you’re an animal that can crouch, you can usually crouch out of the trees.

[swift atlas]

you just don't wanna mind with a basic system of any survival game

[burnt bone]

How would this impact hunting species less? If any it hurts them more because it forces down time rather than being able to find their next target?

Also, herding/pack species already gain a LOT of benefits from grouping, you’re just hurting solo play.

[feral solstice]

What

[median kite]

bet thank you!

[swift atlas]

you need to consider that survivability rn almost just not exist, is just too easy to survive

people hunt, eat, sit and repeat

[feral solstice]

Or I just don’t want to heal for 5 years to play the game. lol

[burnt bone]

Extra steps are good to an extent, at some point it just becomes tedious.

[sage yew]

"infection resistance" or other factors
but I don't really see the need for such "buffs" for hunters

[swift atlas]

a deathmatch would be better

[swift atlas]

you are considering that every interaction resumes to a infection

and it's not the case unless you are too bad at combat

[feral solstice]

Bruh what

[swift atlas]

carnos can kill a group of utah without suffering 1 bite

[feral solstice]

So getting hurt means you’re bad at the game now??

[sage yew]

there is currently only one thing to do, siting down
so don't act so anxious about 1 or 2 more steps

many games have deeper healing and wound mechanics
arma is pretty sophisticated there and it's a LOT of fun

[swift atlas]

if you don't suffer any dmg, you wont suffer from infection

[feral solstice]

Lmfaoooo

[burnt bone]

How would this stop the over population? If anything it would increase their population since people are forced to rivers more often.

[swift atlas]

first -we have bunch of safe place, second - the would need to move to find stuff and cure, if they decide to keep not caring or forget to do it

they get the infection and die

just like real life

[sage yew]

beside of that, being punished of heaving only 50% of health for some time, is not bad ....there is no need to be always 100%

[feral solstice]

Remove locked health then

[swift atlas]

could be, as i said, nothing there is set on stone

[sage yew]

whats locked health?

[feral solstice]

Because it’ll just be a handicap on top of the health slowdown

[feral solstice]

Essentially the more you get damaged, the more your health gets locked and you have to heal the locked health to… heal beyond it

So it’s essentially another regen slowdown lol

Been a thing since like update 1.5

[sage yew]

like if you get really badly hurt, you can't reheal over a specific value for some time?

[swift atlas]

people should worry about pvp all the time and think about the long effect of it.

[feral solstice]

Essentially yeah

You have to heal the locked health, which is like healing extra hp

[swift atlas]

it's basically a increase on health healing time

[burnt bone]

I do agree with the game being easy to an extent, but forcing people to be weak after they just defended themselves so that they just die to the next thing that finds them is not the way imo.
The only way it would change that loop is: hunt, eat, clean, sit and repeat

[sage yew]

sounds motivating to pick more realistic fights

[swift atlas]

it will not be instant, btw.

[sage yew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c_k9Tyr4-o
these are some hardcore healing mechanics

while the Isle has basically the child friendly equivalent of mechanics right now

[burnt bone]

Majority of interactions are combat, and of those interactions most result in one side being weak and the other dead.

[swift atlas]

people should die some times, but imagine a Rex, he could be sick, but would you take you chance? would you kill it for fun if it could nearly kill you too?

you would kill him, but you would be the weaker now

putting you in that position just because you want, is stupid, and you should suffer because of it

people will be more caution, not directly go to kill it, maybe just kick out the guy from the corpse and done

[sage yew]

currently its: "can I 1v1 this dude?"
instead it should be: "even if I win this, I'd be still messed up badly"

[swift atlas]

you got you food withou any damage

me as rex, i prob already eat a bit, i will just move instead of certain death, even almost killing the guy

to finish, this is considering everything to come, and elder and etc

so you will have much more to loose, not just 1 hour of grow that you can do AFK

people just don't mind dying because they can AFK anything

too easy to care

[sage yew]

I totally agree on this

[burnt bone]

I could maybe see it working, but I can also see it just being tedious or overly punishing.

[swift atlas]

sure. But i can see it working, we can remember a few of this behavior with server rules at legacy

sometimes you try to gets others corpse and they just give it, because they are too bad, but you don't know how they are. even a APEX sometimes gives the corpse because they are too bad to fight

but you, as someone that don't wanna die too, would not take the chance

or you just eat as fast as you can and run, that is mostly what happens when you are alone

especially because corpse detection will vary to each specie (like the giga concept, he is sniffing something from a far distance)

anyway, is just a idea, but what i would like to see is more layers added into survivability, not necessary exactly what i wrote

[little gazelle]

hi, i have a question for devs or anyone who knows if this been mentioned before, is optimization a short term focus? I'd love for it to be one of the top priorities

I mean, i can still run the game but it would be neat to have it run at 60fps rather than 30

[uneven mist]

Optimization is an ongoing process and happens every update, they just can’t do one single update with optimizations without breaking it right after implementing stuff

[little gazelle]

okay, good to know ty

[sage yew]

probably not, this usually happens at the end of development
but with u6 they added NIS and works great for me, with only slightly lower visuals, but with overall good performance. Not great, not terrible.

What are your specs and settings? AA quality to the max gives good visuals, with minimum drawbacks for example, but might depend of specs

[little gazelle]

i just got in game, disabled reflections or something like that and am around 50FPS now, huge improvement

with everything on epic and "Quality" FSR

i didnt notice these settings before

[sage yew]

What do you guys think about relative and absolute control for movement and direction?

[swift atlas]

explain better

[sage yew]

how...

okay, currently we have relative controls, determined by the positioning of the camera/screen. For example you can press S, but when your view is pointing backwards, you run forward
absolute is like most other games, you press left, you go left

[swift atlas]

oh, i see

idk, i kinda like how is it rn

[north quiver]

so you mean like have controls where if you hold down w to walk forwards, you can move your screen around without the use of alt and your dino will keep walking in the same direction and it’ll only turn if you use a or d

I like the current controls too but I wouldn’t be opposed to having an option to change in settings to something else. I’m sure at least one person would like new controls like that lol

[sage yew]

I sometimes wish the game had absolute controls. Like I want to make a left turn, but because the viewing angle is like it is, it turns sometimes the whole way around in the opposite direction instead. What can be weird sometimes... I guess?

I mean, sure it works and not even bad like it is right now and I don't know if I want to suggest a different scheme, just for the sake of something different, or if it would enhance the experience

like, why can't I walk backwards, when I press S? And other games work perfectly well using absolute controls as well

why is it even relative in the first place?

[swift atlas]

would be good, but the problem is that we still have a bunch of work

so this would be something not need (atleast not now

[sage yew]

that's not work, it's a design decision

[north quiver]

for the walking backwards part, holding mmb + s would be a nice way to walk backwards with the current movement

[sage yew]

being able to walk backwards could solve the "help I'm stuck on a tree" problem

I guess

@vocal pumice Dinos are no dogs!

[barren crater]

@shut tendon What exactly do you mean by that? Bigger players as in?

[shut tendon]

like, adult deino can grab a baby carno

[limber hull]

it can already do that

[shut tendon]

i mean like

alive
they can break free

yah

[limber hull]

why tho? Just kill the carno lol

[shut tendon]

true

i think it'd be funny to keep them as a prisoner

[limber hull]

but that doesn't make it easier to hunt

it just makes it easier to mess with people

if the intention is to make hunting easier, that's not what happens

[violet magnet]

@fierce lintel it could incentivize cerato to eat almost exclusively rancid or near-rancid carcasses to build up the necessary bacteria IMO
like
eating a lot of rotten meat means more bacteria, but hunting something uses up A LOT of that bacteria or biting something to the point of it vomiting also uses up A LOT of that bacteria. So you can play cerato and choose between being a hunter and only eating rotten carcasses to build up bacteria for hunting strategies, or being a poison dart frog where you eat exclusively rotten carcasses and are just a hotbed of gnarly bacteria and use it as a deterrent rather than a hunting strategy

[rare fractal]

I sincerely doubt Cerato will be hunting anything till Magy is in the game

Maybe juvi stegos

[fierce lintel]

cerato could be a good carno deterent

i feel like a cerato teno mixpack would be v strong

[uneven mist]

Prob juvi deino, Omni, juvi stego and dumb carnos

[fervent ivy]

Imagine mixpacking in my realism dinosaur survival game.

[rare fractal]

A Cerato is never catching an Omni, not a juvi deino, if carnis aren’t hunting juvi deinos then Cerato can only be worse at it

[uneven mist]

I could see one ambushing one that’s on land or something but yeah it wouldn’t be good at it

[uneven mist]

Also speaking of cera, how do you feel of it’s ability?

[rare fractal]

Yeah but theoretically an Anky could hunt a Carno if it wasn’t paying attention…which btw I’m more than ok with Cerato basically never hunting unless desperate

[rare fractal]

Could’ve been way better, highly abusable and honestly I’m just entirely apathetic to Cera after this devblog mainly because of it

[gritty lance]

i dont get it, tf is bad about a ingame map

[rare fractal]

No idea

[uneven mist]

I saw someone in isle discussion that wanted a pin..like how lunge works

[rare fractal]

Why would we ever want Cerato to be a walking problem

[uneven mist]

That’s what I was saying too

[rare fractal]

What….like….what….like actually what

[barren crater]

I love pins 🥰

[rare fractal]

I can’t wait for more one tap abilities, I hate combative tempo, fun is for losers

[uneven mist]

The pinners gets into a pin fight and the better pinner wins

[rare fractal]

The faster RMB wins the day yet again

[gritty lance]

sounds like prison ngl

[rare fractal]

Reminds me of deino combat with less steps ironically

[barren crater]

then allo fights a rex, which pins the allo

I love it

[uneven mist]

The better pinner wins the matchup

[violet magnet]

is
is this alberto
when did alberto get to be a HECKIN' GIANT

[uneven mist]

It’s an edit lol, it’s originaly from Rex’s concept pining an allo but it’s edited to be Alberto

[violet magnet]

[rare fractal]

All matchups should be decided by a single button press

[barren crater]

🥰 Sounds fun. Add more

[lucid mauve]

Im wondring if you can see if the cera has bacteria or not, or i will just need to rng it

[violet magnet]

maybe it drools more if it has more bacteria
(also compelled to mention that komodo dragons killing things with "deadly bacteria in their mouths" is a myth, komodo dragons are venomous)

[urban flax]

I think it would be best if other creatures can't see wether a cera has its septic bite charged or not. This way even a cera who couldn't charge its bacteria yet can bluff its way to a corpse.

[rare fractal]

If it doesn’t I just quite

At the very least make charging it a necessity

[lucid mauve]

Yea im sorta hoping that aswell, but it will work as a invincible buff : P

[limber hull]

i like how cera is described as building sceptic bite by eating, not eating SPECIFICALLY rotted stuff

I hate the concept of it HAVING to eat rotten food for its best abilities

Absolutely ass-backwards system

and honestly, i'm fine with cera causing vomiting, as long as it doesn't also have insane hunting capability and damage

because it's an excellent deterrent for other animals thinking of contesting it

[blissful latch]

@worthy valley I like knowing that things are moving, ETA or no. I'm a very patient person so I'm more interested in praising progress, this devblog was full of great stuff to chew on for humans like me

[limber hull]

me likey devlog

[sage yew]

why?

[limber hull]

Let's think about this. Imagine cerato only gets it's sceptic bite, which it uses to defend corpses, from rotten corpses that only it can eat. The issue is immediately apparent. Cerato has no need to have said deterrent, as no other animal would be willing to contest for that rotten meat, it's entirely unedible and causes sickness to other animals.

This leaves cera with two options, eat rotten corpses for an ability it would barely need to use, or fight for fresh corpses, but be disadvantaged as their primary tool to deter competition is only available when they eat rotten corpses, essentially making them a really big over-glorified compy

[sage yew]

"it's entirely unedible and causes sickness to other animals. "
I assume, that your statement is mostly build around this comment. But have under consideration, that this is mostly just temporary.

Also, you could eat rotten meat, store toxicity, and use it when needed to defend more viable food sources. This would be mostly dictated by the decay rate of ability build up

and I assume, if it would be made that way, that cera would be able to eat rotten meat, which could be a huge relief from requiring freshly hunted prey

[limber hull]

Cera already is able to eat rotten meat, but having it NEED to return to rotten meat in order to fight for fresh meat feels entirely backwards to me

since cera isn't going to be much of a corpse bully over meat no one wants to eat

[sage yew]

to be honest, I also struggle imagining how it could work out

but how about rotten meat being on the diet?

[limber hull]

still weird and stupid imho

[sage yew]

whoa, no need to be rude

[limber hull]

like, what nutrients are you going to get from rotten meat that you couldn't get from fresh

[sage yew]

it's called fermentation

[limber hull]

i will always think a cera standing over a corpse and waiting for it to decay before it can actually eat it is utterly absurd

[sage yew]

we humans let constantly rot food for better digestibility

[limber hull]

again, from a gameplay perspective, waiting for a corpse to rot and not eating it until it does sounds ridiculous

[sage yew]

it shouldn't be viable to wait for food to rot
so it would be either a hit or miss

[limber hull]

and encouraging players to wait just makes it silly

[sage yew]

but finding rotten meat is the equivalent of plant eaters diet

[limber hull]

anything you get from a rotten corpse, you should also get a fresh corpse

the only benefit of eating rot should be immunity to the debuffs

a rotten heart for a cera should be like a fresh heart for cera, and for every other animal

it ignores the rot

[sage yew]

not necessarily, like I already explained
rotting is a chemical process, similar to cooking

also, different species could/should experience the rotting state differently

for species A (cera): it's fresh
for species B (active hunters): it's already rotten

by extending the time for cera, to experience the rotting state of a food source, could take ages, you would just starve waiting it to rot

but heaving rotten meat on the diet, would make it interesting to actually find already rotten meat

also, it could be made in a way, that fresh meat only builds up toxicity slowly, while rotten meat builds it up fast

[limber hull]

1: I really dislike how diets work already for carnivores, and think rewarding nutrients should be limited to organs or some super niche cases (piscivores eating fish, ovivores eating eggs, bone-eaters eating bones)

2: I still think it encourages people to wait on top of bodies so it can become a better nutrient, no matter how unviable you claim it will be, it's still a method people will partake in

3: Cera NEEDING to seek out rot, rather than just getting the already existing benefits of them being extremely easy to sniff out, or the fact that the body is uncontested, goes from making rot a nice extra that allows cera to be more opportunistic and eat what it wants, when it wants, to something that RELIES on animals not eating fresh corpses in the hope that it will rot, making the rot a chore, not a unique ability

[sage yew]

I don't really disagree on your opinions
just thinking how it could be made to work out

but you are currently ignoring, that cera might need to actually defend rotten meat against other rot eaters

[limber hull]

We actually already have an example of a rot eater, who gets no such benefits, deino

Speaking of which, cera ain't stopping a deino from stealing it's stuff

Deino can't even throw up, so the sceptic bite would be entirely useless on it

[sage yew]

sure, but other playables will be implemented too at some point

[limber hull]

We have:

• Compy
• Ptero
• Megalania
• Cera
• Deino
• Maybe rex?

The ONLY matchup cera could do would be mega, not really much contest otherwise, it either stomps or gets stomped

[sage yew]

rex a rot eater?

[limber hull]

IDK man, maybe, considering it was considered a scavenger animal for a while lol

[urban flax]

Maybe quetz as well

[limber hull]

i dont like the idea of quetz being a rot eater tbh

it's quite clear it's a VERY competent hunter

[urban flax]

Well it's true, considering it's shown lifting more than its own weight in concept art...

[limber hull]

exactly

cera will likely be limited in its offense to account for the scary defence

vomit bite is actually quite good btw, I like the idea of a way to dissuade something from eating your meat without the necessity to kill it

it's the only real punishment that matters

[urban flax]

I still think infection making you vomit is stupid tho

[limber hull]

ehhh

as long as it can't be used offensively, i'm fine with it

[sage yew]

"I think it's stupid" is hard to argue against

[limber hull]

infection would likely be ignored otherwise

[urban flax]

It makes no sense
It's not what infections normally do
It's weird

[limber hull]

true, but any other type of infection would likely be outright ignored

[sage yew]

infections = pain
Pain = vomiting

not so uncommon

[urban flax]

I wouldn't mind if it had the same effects as vomiting, but without actually vomiting

[urban flax]

Then every attack should have a chance of making you puke for that to make sense

Including other sources of damage like falling

[sage yew]

many animals use this
as vomiting decreases your weight and diverts required energy for digestion to fight or flight

even humans do it - sometimes
under high levels of stress

birds do it

[urban flax]

So you think it's fine that every damage source taken has a chance to make you vomit ? I'm not certain we're talking about the same game anymore

[sage yew]

no
would thought of damage per time with % chance to vomit

[urban flax]

bruh

[sage yew]

dude

[limber hull]

i will still stand by the fact that vomiting works the best for what cera wants to do

even if it really makes little sense

[urban flax]

In terms of debuffs, yes
But in terms of what's happening on-screen, I hate it

[limber hull]

i would've preferred if some venomous animal caused vomiting, since you know, venom = vomit

or if they just concede and make cera venomous lol

[urban flax]

I agree on that

[limber hull]

cera essentially already is venomous

[sage yew]

nope, it poison = vomit
venom = pain

[limber hull]

venoms can cause vomiting

you know that, right?

[sage yew]

pain = vomiting
sure

[limber hull]

not all venoms do it, but some can

[urban flax]

I guess I'll just have to go by the headcanon that cera is actually venomous...

[limber hull]

wanna know something funny too? Every animal that's venomous has a weirdly coloured mouth, the other animals generally have normal colours... Except cera, who ALSO has a strange mouth colour (blue instead of pink/red)

Look at Dilo, same colour mout

[urban flax]

Does that mean giraffes are venomous ?

[limber hull]

just a weird design thing i noticed

things with venom have blue mouths, except for some reason, cerato, who just has a blue mouth because it can

[sage yew]

might be just a concept art thing
don't know if coloration was taken into consideration of indicating anything, besite of "looking good"

but neither an argument against or for your argumentation, just a reminder

[limber hull]

its just an interesting thing to note

i honestly think you could easily make cera venomous and very little would change

[full canopy]

Why are people against an in-game map?

[limber hull]

i prefer navigating and exploring myself than just knowing where all the major points are instantly

[sage yew]

most lazy way to find your way
lazy excuse for lazy map design
lazy mechanic for lazy developers

[low canopy]

remove coordinates from dino profile

[urban flax]

Once we get a map in which we can actually guess where we are

[sage yew]

agree, but it's useful during development stages

[sage yew]

why should you care for this anyway?

[urban flax]

Because it is annoying to be unable to know where you are, or where you're going, especially when you need to go to a specific place for your diets

[sage yew]

you are either where food is, or you go to find food
"you are here" is such a human desire

and rudimentary navigation is always possible, just remember some landmarks

[limber hull]

also you can't just call an in-game map a lazy excuse for lazy map design and have no problem with not knowing where the hell you are

lazy map design involves getting completely lost consistently with no landmarks to orient yourself

[sage yew]

not even spiro is devoid of landmarks

[urban flax]

Ok, but when I need to go to northern grasslands, and all I can see is greenery all around me, I don't know whether I'm in the north, south, west or east part of the map, what do I do ?

[limber hull]

it's pretty devoid tbh

it's kind of a flat hellscape

[urban flax]

Spiro has like 2 landmarks visible from relatively far away

[limber hull]

the only real landmark is the radio tower

which is basically a guiding light

[sage yew]

true, but not completely true

you have rivers, you have mountains, you have rock formations, you have roads and so on

enough to find your way

[urban flax]

Roads are all exactly the same
Rivers as well, unless you spend dozens of hours looking at them to be able to tell the difference
Mountains aren't a very good indication since they're so big
Most rock formations on the map aren't visible from afar

[sage yew]

you also have a compas, time of day and the sun/moon for navigation

you have plenty of tools to find your way

[urban flax]

Ok so I can tell easily where's north
You didn't answer how in hell do I know where I am

[sage yew]

never said it's easy or perfect, but it works

[urban flax]

You know what's triangulation is, right ? You always need 3 references to be able to pinpoint your location. In spiro having 1 landmark in sight is already a feat

[sage yew]

and getting lost is part of the survival experience
buhu, yes I know the usual arguments against this

[urban flax]

If it worked so well that many people wouldn't be using vulnona

[urban flax]

Getting lost works as long as you know when you are lost and when you are not

[sage yew]

getting lost means also you come to places you maybe never have been before

in the current build it's super useless as you only need to know where NW or Center is, but in the future it might just open up new perspectives

and if you want to go somewhere specific, just follow the rivers

[urban flax]

Geting lost in Spiro only means getting to new identical grasslands or identical forests

[sage yew]

well, true

[urban flax]

And that's the problem with this map
Following the river (there is only one) is the only way to navigate in spiro

[sage yew]

but you are never helpless

and spiro is just temoprary

....I just realised that I might have lost the topic
is it about spiros design, or the coordinate system?

or a map?

[urban flax]

It was originally about a map
Then the coordinate system
Then spiro's design

[gentle flint]

I see why people don’t want the map and you could argue realism in like that.. “well dinosaurs can’t use maps” or whatever but I think the coordinates thing has something to do with humans. I could be wrong but.. y’know.

[rare fractal]

The fact that we have a character menu shatters any immersion issues

[gentle flint]

Yeah fair

[sage yew]

spiros design is not great (not terrible)
coordinate system has it's play during development
and a map is just bad

do we agree on this?

[sage yew]

I actually would like to get rid of that too tbh

[rare fractal]

That would be terrible

[sage yew]

okay

[rare fractal]

Like actually why would we make the game so astronomically more annoying to engage with

[sage yew]

why do you need that data anyway?

[urban flax]

Except on the map
I don't see the harm in adding an in-game map
But if we could get a map good enough that we don't need one I wouldn't mind

[rare fractal]

Because it’s vital information on YOUR stats…hiding that info is just unnecessarily cruel and unintuitive

[sage yew]

it's more organic though
why care for numbers

[rare fractal]

Why would I care about organic implementation in a game like this when organic implementation means robbing me of the information vital to my survival that I otherwise can’t find

[sage yew]

okay, to know what diets you have is actually really usefull

[rare fractal]

Because without a menu to display MY stats I won’t know them

And HP, and stam, and attack force

[sage yew]

it's not vital at all

[rare fractal]

They are literally your vitals

[sage yew]

you have that on your main screen
force = size, you don't need numbers here

[rare fractal]

Not your hp no, doesn’t matter why take this info away

It’s useful to know

[sage yew]

yes, useful, but you are not dependent on this

[rare fractal]

So?

Should we remove all gameplay elements that aren’t literally absolutely necessary down to the scrutiny of eliminating all accessibility?

Should we make the game so hostile to engage with that you aren’t even capable of knowing what your own button inputs do?

Like that’s getting to a point where the game is basically mocking you for believing you’d know anything about the creature you literally embody

Where’s the line?

And it’s not like you can just look at your animal and intuitively know how strong it is, the game isn’t balanced with an adherence of physics

[sage yew]

now you're extending it a bit far, as "all gameplay elements" is ...kinda everything and we are not talking about this here

it's about if you need and should have all the numbers and if it would hurt to lose some. Most of the data you are already getting from the main screen

button inputs you can see in the options
knowing biteforce is not really relevant, unless you know every other species stats, like weight (health) or biteforce, which you can't see on your window

"hey, I have 200nm biteforce" is irrelevant, without comparison
growth, size etc. you can all see by observing your character, no need for overlayed numbers

and considering the final game, everything that is unnecessary should be stripped away

just because I like to have all the information, does not mean I should have them

[rare fractal]

Knowing biteforce is literally what tells you how much damage you deal, this isn’t info you could intuitive grasp, the game is not as realistic as you want it to be.
Carno doesn’t onetap stego, you wouldn’t know this without understanding how much damage your animal does….otherwise you’d be perfectly justified in believing you could walk up to its face and kill it instantly….obviously for balancing purposes you can’t do this

[sage yew]

you are big = much biteforce
you are small = less biteforce

if it's 200, or 300, or whatever is irrelevant
sure, it's interesting to know that, but in reality it doesn't mean anything

[rare fractal]

No, intuitively Carno would instantly kill stego on a headshot, your concept of intuitive capability doesn’t work

[sage yew]

the only reason I see for number display is development and balancing
for such things it's really useful

[rare fractal]

Just because we don’t necessarily need something to play the game doesn’t mean the game shouldn’t have it

Hence the existence of QOL additions

[sage yew]

that's a thing that developers need to solve

[rare fractal]

Why, that’s entirely fine

You’ve just decided it’s a problem because….it is

For reasons, of which I have no idea

[sage yew]

the problem I have, is that you are getting way to many very specifc information that only really matter on paper, not how the game feels or works

every action, related to your visual representations ingame, should correspond in a comprehensive way

[rare fractal]

Why, that’s entirely devoid of any balancing metrics….why is this law

Plus the numbers directly correlate to your capability

They are important

Very important

Like we’re getting close to advocating for deino onetapping brachi…etc

[urban flax]

You may not need to know the exact numbers but it's good to know that as a ptera you can 3-shot another ptera, but that as a deino your bite deals very low damage compared to your size

[rare fractal]

Even then what is the issue with knowing that number

You don’t NEED to know it but why not

Like if it’s for immersion, how do the presence of damage numbers supersede several breaks of physics by the animals via their abilities or movement

[sage yew]

correlation and representation is a different thing
your capabilities correspond to your size, nothing else

and limiting information is key. Lets say you are comfortable with how it is right now. Why not more information? why not turn rate? acceleration, stamina regain speed and so on and so on

why cut the line, at how it is now?
the only thing is see different is, that less is more, not the other way around

[rare fractal]

Actually why not? I haven’t been able to pin down why accept for the arbitrary merit of simply giving players less information…you’ve just established less is more with no reasoning as to why that’s intrinsically correct

Less is simply more

Like why should there even be a way to tell if you’re starving, or tired, or dying…etc

Less is more

[urban flax]

What I find being a problem is that you only have 1 damage number in your character screen, which is you bite damage, and such an information is pretty useless for a teno or stego
You don't even have a way of knowing you have other attacks than bite as these dinos

[sage yew]

because taking numbers away, takes you away the ability to "Just do the math" but this allows you to react to what is actually happening

[urban flax]

It takes away your ability to do the math, but it doesn't add anything else by itself

[limber hull]

i really dont understand your fixation on ensuring the players have the least enjoyable time possible. Your insistence that nothing can sit still, everything should be at risk of dying at every moment, no one can know what they do, the map should be confusing and have you lost 75% of the time, and downtime is for the weak genuinely make me believe you are some kind of hyper videogame masochist that just wants to be tortured as a survival experience

[urban flax]

Not knowing how much damage my dino deals doesn't make me magically able to guess it

[rare fractal]

It deprives you of the capacity to do the math, not making you focus on other things, it forces your focus, it just takes away your ability to trust your eyes

[sage yew]

don't make it a personal thing pls

[limber hull]

im not, it's just a consistent theme i notice in basically every convo with you

i happen to like knowing how grown my animal is, or what health they're at

[sage yew]

that is a personal thing
and has nothing to do with this conversation

[rare fractal]

But it’s the origin of the perspective being advocated for rn, it’s your premise

It’s incredibly relevant

[sage yew]

you've even implied specifically my intention, that I just want to make the game unpleasant

that is personal

[rare fractal]

It’s an observation

[sage yew]

okay, I not gonna argue against this

[cyan flame]

Solve how?

[rare fractal]

Anyway, to stay on topic, the idea of making the game more difficult by depriving the player of as much information as possible is the origin of the argument in favor of reducing the UI down to only the most basic elements is it not?

[cyan flame]

But you can't accurately respond if you don't have the information. Then you're at best making guesses and hoping it will work out.

[rare fractal]

You can’t make educated decisions to influence your survival if you’re forcefully ignorant of what your able to do

[limber hull]

i like to know how fast i am and how close i am to adult

it's really hard to gauge that based on just eyeing the animal

[rare fractal]

In this game it simply isn’t possible

You’d assume deino would onetap….everything

You’d feel betrayed if a teno survived a headshot from an Omni

[sage yew]

you don't need to make educated decisions - not knowing what you're actually meaning

many other games do not have that kind of number game and it works perfectly fine

[rare fractal]

And why are those other games good

And why are those games analogous to ours

[sage yew]

and many games start in EA with debugconsoles, that are showing various stats, that are removed at the end

[rare fractal]

How do those features directly correlate in integration despite being in different games

It’d be like adding a hunger mechanic to Mario cart because it works well (exists) in Minecraft

[limber hull]

i dont think there's a single animal survival game that purposely withholds the capabilities of your animal

[sage yew]

okay

[rare fractal]

Would that be an addition utilizing that logic you’d agree with?

[sage yew]

no, but it's okay if you think that

[rare fractal]

What?

Why would I think you agree with that if you say you don’t?

[sage yew]

I think you are just trolling and at this point I don't really care to discuss that topic with you.

I like less, you like more.
I think you don't need it, you think it's important

that's fine I guess

[rare fractal]

I’m being entirely genuine when I say that I never troll when discussing a topic, I find that behavior intensely frustrating

It progresses nothing and leaves everyone upset, which is lame

So we could keep goin if you want to afford me any credit, but if not that’s fine

[sage yew]

I do not intend to please people with my opinions
the same goes for the numbers, I like to use them too, they are interesting, but only because I like them, doesn't mean I think it's right to have them

[limber hull]

Having a viewpoint that doesn't align with yours isn't trolling, neither is questioning your points

[sage yew]

"It’d be like adding a hunger mechanic to Mario cart because it works well (exists) in Minecraft"

[limber hull]

that's called an analogy

[rare fractal]

A hypothetical is trolling?

[limber hull]

that isn't trolling

[cyan flame]

You can't just spout opinions, you need to have arguments and reasons behind them too, if you're going to hold a conversation, much less a proper discussion.

[sage yew]

if you feel it necessary to degrade my opinion into this, I think it's trolling

but I was already out after my intentions ware made clear here, as I only intend to ruin the game for others, so well

[limber hull]

i feel you take things a bit too personally

[sage yew]

if it aims at me personally, yes I do

[cyan flame]

It's more so that, from what I've seen Damus, you don't really give much arguments as to why you want this or that, aside from "I like it".

[torn bane]

Го Тим кабаны

[rare fractal]

I’m sorry if you feel that’s degradation, but it’s overwhelming common in debate to apply the logic of the person you’re discussing with on other topics to provide clarity as to how the logic functions…if you disagree with this practice, I can’t say a discussion with you would be useful

So I’ll be heading out, have a good night

[sage yew]

the most common counter argument was "I don't like it" so....

my question is.... more or less information? and why is right now the perfect amount of information?

[cyan flame]

Which is no better from the other side if that's the case.

[cyan flame]

I would argue more. The reasoning is because to me, the point of survival, is to make smart decisions. You can only do so, if you have information to work with to base your decisions on. The more accurate and better information, the more you can decide the best course of action.

I do not see any skill or "value" in guesswork, it is just frustrating because it means you're still left to hope for the best in your choices, instead of knowing that if you do this or that, you will get this or that result.

This could be fine in other games, RNG and similar does have it's place, but not in a survival game.

Look at how the damage screen works. It's very hard to read, so people tend to misjudge how damaged they are, and thus make decisions that would not be the best ones for the given situation at times.

[sage yew]

that is totally understandable
gaining information is key to winning in a survival game. That's why players will seek out for as much information gain as possible. It's understandable and also a natural behaviour

but that's the thing, a good game will not provide you with all the information. Only so much of them, what is really necessary. And if it comes down to needing a number chart, even without it, you are able to gain most of the information by observing your character, or they UI overlay (bottom right, or blood screen)

exact numbers, are only really relevant for comparisons, which you can usually not really do, as the information you get, are limited to your own species, which makes it somewhat meaningless to actually have them.

being uncertain, is also a part of survival. Nothing is granted, nothing is for sure.

but beside to all this. Right now, has the number game it's fair place, as it's useful for development, balancing and giving precise feedback

[rare fractal]

Out of curiosity, should control inputs be randomized to fit with the theme of uncertainty?

[queen ember]

No

[sage yew]

you are trolling again, you can't mean this question serious

[rare fractal]

Why would I be trolling

[sage yew]

because that's ridiculous

[queen ember]

https://tenor.com/view/sleepy-bed-time-boo-tired-exhausted-gif-17438794

[rare fractal]

But if making the player uncertain is the goal, then wouldn’t randomizing inputs fit that goal?

[cyan flame]

I'm not sure I can agree on what constitutes a good game there honestly. Providing information is vital, the experience and being good at it comes from applying it correctly. Knowledge vs wisdom as it were. And you don't really gain much from observing without numbers, look at the damage screen for example. And sure, being uncertain,but it shouldn't come from not knowing, but from "is this the best choice" because you've not experienced things well enough, or you don't know how the other guy might react. And you do gain the information by playing the different playables, so there is that. You are however correct in that knowing things are vital for giving accurate feedback on things.

[sage yew]

no, not at all. but you know this already

[rare fractal]

How come? I don’t understand where the line is drawn between generating uncertainty in a survival game through forced ignorance, and uncertainty through input randomization

They both accomplish the same goal of making the player uncertain

[sage yew]

uncertain, does not mean random

[rare fractal]

How come?

Randomness is incredibly uncertain, actually the pinnacle of uncertainty

[sage yew]

I'm not going to define uncertain and random for you

[rare fractal]

You don’t have to I know what they mean

[sage yew]

are trying to provoke me?

[rare fractal]

Not at all

[sage yew]

google it

[rare fractal]

Just trying to have a discussion :)

Should I list the definitions here?

[sage yew]

no thanks, I can do it for my self

[limber hull]

@topaz pendant i kinda like its stupid little idiot head

[gentle flint]

Me too lmao

[limber hull]

its genuinely so amusing and adorable to me

[gentle flint]

Lil’ noggin

[limber hull]

it's the most "little brain, empty head" looking juvi i have ever seen and i love it

[rare fractal]

Gotta love little dibble

[compact flare]

Diablo head is fine, cute little guy

[sage yew]

How about more behavioural sexual dimorphism?
Like, let's say, 6 females can form a pack with 1 male
but not 6 males, with 1 female

would consider such stuff for adult, and maybe sub stage, at least in reduced forms, but for now I'd like to put such specifications aside for now

[rare fractal]

Would the goal be to form natural breeding groups?

Cuz that could be interesting

Eventually ofc we’re prolly not ready for it now

[sage yew]

had this at bast in an afterthought
but was more considering a bit competition inbetween of species and maybe a bit altered playstiles for females and males

[rare fractal]

Hmm, I think we’d need to go case by case with something like that if implemented at all, group limits may be a strange direction to go in rather than active incentives. Like perks being relative to intra specific combat or the amount of individuals you’ve nested with….etc

Group limits seem a tad bit too indirect to play into that, but I like the idea of sexual dimorphism behaviorally, we already sorta have that in its most basic implementation with nesting

Could potentially grow from there :)

[sage yew]

sure, different species, different approaches on that topic

[cyan flame]

Didn't we kind of do that once with dryos? :p

[rare fractal]

Like for example, male cheetahs form mini gangs, usually maxing at 3, often stemming from the same litter

[rare fractal]

Did we? OH WE DID

Tho that was self imposed, honestly I kinda like that more

Heavier RP being relatively opt in

Cuz that was fun

[sage yew]

maybe... a female rex is much stronger, but it only can form a pack with a male, that's at least at her growth stage
while a male is able to coop with a different male

just ideas, as I don't really know how dimorphism worked out for the tyrant species

[cyan flame]

No stat based differences please. That is a balance nightmare.

[sage yew]

because: why should you play male, if female is stronger?

[cyan flame]

Yes. Exactly so, as well as all the new combos you get. Balance for two males, two females, one of each, and so on.

Or even more, depending on group size, for both offense and defense, and whatever else. Would not be ideal at all.

[sage yew]

hm, I really don't know
while in nature it is pretty common ...humans are maybe not the best example (bc gender equality age), but they still are

[cyan flame]

Common in nature or not, game takes priority. You do see the issue with balancing right? And the potential of a meta of x or y group for a given purpose? Something from what I know, the devs would not like much.

[sage yew]

yes sure

[cyan flame]

This isn't a matter of if it's realistic or not, but rather how viable it would be in the game, both to implement and how it would affect the gameplay.

As well as the potential frustration from a player enjoying a certain playstyle but wanting to play the opposite sex to that playstyle for other reasons. Think of how PoT has its subspecies and different stats and looks.

[sage yew]

I understand and agree

[cyan flame]

It's happened more than once that a playable subspecies I wanted to be, did not mesh with the stat choices/playstyle.

[sage yew]

but I don't know how PoT has done this

[cyan flame]

Ah. Well they have three subspecies for any playable, with "offense", "defense" and "speed", being the most common stat variations. And since the subspecies looks different, some with "feathers/hair" even, you might visually prefer one, but at the same time preferring the stat balance of another.

Which can then lead to frustration since you have to sacrifice one for the other. They don't have sexual variation, from what I know, stat wise, but the subspecies variation works for the example, since the result would be similar.

[rare fractal]

Unfortunately those subspecies tend to make balancing the game relatively useless

As if you’re a big animal, you always go defense or you’re doing something wrong, or if you’re a small animal, already play speed for the same reason

[sage yew]

I hope you don't mind, if I assume that PoT has done it simply the wrong way ....juuuust for the sake of that topic

lets say we will have 20, 30, or 50 playable species at the end
they all have female and male counterparts

that's 50 balancing requirements
if let's say 1/3 of them has some dimorphism going on, that would result in ....80 balancing requirements? (Im not good at math or anything)

sure, that's more work, but impossible?

[rare fractal]

I think to a degree it renders the classism of choosing each species a bit irrelevant, as often their abilities and environmental niche is dependent on their stat balance coalescing with their abilities, and with 60+ playables that gets all the more volatile

[sage yew]

and PoT is just a brawler, I assume that Isle is not heading that way

[cyan flame]

No, not impossible, just a lot of extra work for potential issues with meta, and as per my example, frustration between choosing for stats or preference.

[rare fractal]

The isle is definitely more combat focused than POT is

A lot of POTs systems actively incentivize you to never come into contact with other players, The Isles tends to do the opposite

[sage yew]

that's somewhat the goal maybe
sure, you are stronger as XX or XY, but it's maybe much harder then to nest, while nesting could provide some benefits and you have a good reason to play the weaker variant

just like you should find good reasons to play weaker classes in general

[rare fractal]

Mhm but it’s primarily about how they fit into their basic survival needs, reproduction is ultimately a very minor part of not only players time, but irl animals time as well, meaning hunting interactions being more vital to perfect over QOL benefits you get with the more peaceful pass times like nesting, as they are ultimately less frequent and prevalent to your gameplay loop than combat balance is, so unless we were significantly depowering animals from their baseline balance instead of rebalancing into an entirely different speed/Hp/power ratios, I don’t think it would work

[cyan flame]

Considering you need one of each to nest, not sure how that'd work.

[rare fractal]

That’s why combat balance, no matter how prevalent or irrelevant it becomes….will always be important as every animal must engage with it

[sage yew]

if everyone plays female, you have as a male way more chances to nest

but maybe it should be made clear here, what people understand under "balancing", this topic alone has different meanings and approaches

for example, balancing could focus on how likely it is for people to want to play as Rex (1/10) or as Herbi (9/10).

balancing could also mean, how 1v1 fights turn usually out
or how different abilities are giving you options to deal with situations

maybe just go with the flow and accept that's not a balancable game to begin with, if it comes down to all the species

[rare fractal]

It is. It’s just difficult

Every game is balance able tho that’s intrinsic to the medium itself

Some are just WAY harder than others

This is definitely one of them

[sage yew]

I tend to doubt it a bit
maybe is "balancing" just a thing of the current small roaster, but in the future? I don't know

[cyan flame]

It is balanceable. That is not the issue. The issues are more so if it would be worth it, and how it would work out. I am personally negative due to not liking that my stats could conflict with my choice of male or female.

[rare fractal]

Even if there’s a chance that means it can be done

[cyan flame]

There is already a bit of an issue with the visual/cosmetic stuff, such as male stego plates. :p

[sage yew]

but you are already making such decisions, by picking your species

[rare fractal]

Well for example, you love female stegos coloring and cosmetics, visual dimorphism, etc….but you’re arbitrarily 2k HP lower than a male with more stam to compensate, you’re effectively playing an entirely different animal despite only really being interested in the cosmetic differences, or just identifying with your animal more

Instead we could just cut the middle man and make both sexes statistically identical and avoid the problem entirely

[sage yew]

uff, but should be cosmetic choices really be a thing? I want that coloring, but don't have any sideffects related to my gender?

[rare fractal]

I think it’s fine, there are 60+ playables in this game, there doesn’t also need to be several logouts to choose from per species

[sage yew]

not several
only male and female

[cyan flame]

Yes, and then making even more so based on something so specific, is not appealing to me. The different species here represent different "classes" in a sense, and that's good enough. And yes, it could lead to variation in the species that might not fit why I chose that species in the first place.

[limber hull]

this is honestly a fascinating concept, the idea of one sex being more preferable due to certain bonuses, but this in turn opens up a wide array of potential nesting partners for the opposite sex. Obviously issues arise when it comes to balancing out this system, and it more than likely won't happen in any official capacity, but it is interesting nonetheless

[rare fractal]

Then 2, either or it has the potential to really dilute the classes and open up a lot of the same issues current mixpacking brings to the game if not very meticulously cared for

[sage yew]

fact is, to make it viable, there is a lot more to be done first

[limber hull]

do i agree with them doing it? not really, no. do i think it's an exceptionally interesting concept in terms of watching how these differences affect populations and interactions within species? absolutely

[rare fractal]

I think it’s interesting, would I want it implemented even if it were totally reasonable to do so? Probably not

[limber hull]

for sure

[urban flax]

In old lego games female characters could jump higher
Not sure that's still the case in most recent ones
And all it did was that you'd always make female custom characters because of that little advantage

[limber hull]

but the idea just fascinates me

[rare fractal]

Female stego should get more airtime during sprint

[limber hull]

especially in the context of a survival game where gender matters for nesting

[rare fractal]

Yeah it’s not unfounded ofc, that was never up for contention

[limber hull]

and if nesting were increased in its value towards players, you quickly find that the "weak" gender becomes almost more important than the dominant one

it just intrigues me in the way it develops interspecies interactions and interactions with a set species itself

[sage yew]

how about this, some species can't communicate with their own gender?
especially considering that it's a game

[limber hull]

its more of a fascinating thought experiment than a legitimate concept for a direction the game should go down, though, and i think it should be left there

[limber hull]

i dont understand why in gods name this should be done

[rare fractal]

I feel like that’s actually the best way to go about it, one just being statistically worse rather than a counterbalance, completely avoids the “mixpacking” issue

[limber hull]

different genders don't speak different languages

they're all still capable of communication

[sage yew]

you either pack with a different gender, or live with someone you can't grasp their intentions, maybe interesting for cannibalistic species

[limber hull]

it just feels rather restrictive, not to mention, confusing

[rare fractal]

Kinda just seems like an artificial barrier rather than any sort of play style partition

There’d need to be deeper justification than simply “it would be neat”, that’s for sure

[sage yew]

basically, different species have different abilities to deal with
more social creatures have all freedom of communication like it is

[rare fractal]

Cuz it can have merit I suppose

[sage yew]

sure, but I tried to aproach a concept, of a gameplay perspective

[rare fractal]

The gameplay is all I care about

So perfect

[sage yew]

the justification would be, that some species don't like to form groups, that do not allow nesting XX and XX or XY and XY

if communication is only possible with the opposite sex, it would promote to group with the opposite sex

simply because, humans play dinos and humans can be social in every way.... until they are not allowed to communicate

[rare fractal]

It’d promote it but I think it’d be better if the behaviors were more organic, like the incentives for grouping with the opposite sex put you above the baseline instead of the benefit being that you get to play the game normally

[urban flax]

You're still able to communicate with not members of your group tho

[sage yew]

I've meant it XX can communicate with XY but XX can't communicate with XX, or XY can't communicate with XY

because this specific animal, wouldn't cooperate with the same sex. Either fight for territory and food, or try to create space inbetween

if some kind of socialising would not meant to be, it could be blocked that way

(sure, you can bypass it using 3rd party software, but that's a different topic)

[urban flax]

So it implies removing local chat and replacing it with gender-specific chat for some species ?

[sage yew]

yes, but still local

[rare fractal]

I think you’d need to impose more tangible benefits or drawbacks that effect your actual survival, rather than just removing communication

[sage yew]

just an Idea to use communication abilities to shape how some species behave
like some higly unsocial species

[rare fractal]

Because it’s not only a bit silly, but makes the species quite, annoying…plus intra specific communication is really useful outside of strictly competing or grouping

[faint folio]

I mean... One, that doesn't make sense physically-- all animals are able to communicate to the same gender irl. And two (and more importantly), it wouldn't stop over packing and mixpacking because those groups generally don't use in game chat to communicate. They hang out in a private discord. All you'd do is handicap people who generally don't commit the offense you're trying to prevent

[rare fractal]

Especially since in lore, all of the dinosaurs have human minds as well

[urban flax]

Communication is already pretty restricted in The Isle, I don't think it's a good thing to restrict it even more

[sage yew]

sure, via calls, basic sounds
but communication with deeper understanding and sympathy? not always

[rare fractal]

Well no animals communicate via text chat either, that text chat us how those more basic forms of communication are translated to a player in a way they understand

In game it’s just grunts

[sage yew]

that's why it could work to shape peoples behaviours

[faint folio]

In those species with restricted communication, both same gender and cross gender communication is hindered the same.

[rare fractal]

Should it tho?

It certainly would but in a very arbitrary fashion

Like there’s nothing about the players choices that shape that behavior….that’s just how they have to be

[sage yew]

To be honest, I don't know
that's still an Idea that just plopped up ...as communication (via chat box) is a strong tool to form bonds

[faint folio]

But it probably still wouldn't curb most overpacking, because you don't use in game chat if you are in a voice chat with your friends

[rare fractal]

Mhm, I think there are more organic ways to go about it personally, not sure exactly what those methods are, but adding strong incentives to not tolerate members of your species in more tangible ways is what I think the best route is

[sage yew]

nah, that's not my intention anyway
mixpacking requires a lot of features to work together to stop such behaviours

[rare fractal]

Overpacking not mixpacking

[sage yew]

do you have something specific in mind?

[sage yew]

ah yes, meant that too

[faint folio]

What is your intention? Sounds like it's to reduce overpacking by preventing same gender communication

[rare fractal]

Not yet, it’s not something I think about a lot, it’s something I see happen with certain animals in game already, but then randomly it just won’t, like in deinos case, most are antisocial as hell and kill eachother often, and sometimes groups of 7+ show up out of nowhere

[sage yew]

okay, a different Idea (slightly)
how about not giving the chatbox, unless they're in the group

[faint folio]

But theres 1 big reason for overpacking and mixpacking -- because people like to play with their friends, and you don't always want to run your 5h stego grow off a cliff to reset and play Utah with your buddy, leading to mixpacking

[sage yew]

maybe that would be something you might consider before playing any specifc species? I mean, sure to play with your friends like you like is a fine thing, but it falls appart when 5 (random) rex players decide it's time to play together

if you want to play social, you pick a social species, that's not terrible

[faint folio]

Still wouldn't touch mixpack and overpacking because external VC. And would permit a LOT of mistrust and canni, especially in non canni cooperative species

[rare fractal]

But you can’t go play a social species without killing yourself first

[faint folio]

^

[sage yew]

didn't I have mentioned that one Idea on it's own wont solve such problems? It would be only a part of multiple ideas working together

[rare fractal]

External VC does sorta collapse any communication limitation idea in game fundamentally tho

[sage yew]

maybe it will be a thing of a future, don't know
or just switch server with your buddys, so you can play together

[sage yew]

sure, but it becomes more difficult if you just play with randoms

[faint folio]

I mean... I sometimes play with friends once every two weeks if our schedules conflict. Say I grew a rex so I could play by myself, but now I'm playing with my friend. Most people aren't going to kill an apex to play a social species.

Or should I always just play a social, non apex species? But then what do I do when I don't have anyone to play with? If all the servers on the cluster I play on have saves?

[rare fractal]

Yeah but that really doesn’t work in the grand scheme of the game, what if you’re playing on your community server that you’re heavily invested in? Why should that player have to go to a completely different server before accessing basic communication abilities

[faint folio]

A lot of people find a group of people that they play with regularly. Even if it starts out just playing with randoms, you eventually bump into people who enjoy playing with you and invite you to their discord, etc and then maybe you start playing with them more frequently

[sage yew]

okay, yes.... sure. But... I don't know
i kinda get tired, can anyone else try to find reasons for it? I become tired thinking about ....I mean, it's demanding

if you want to play apex or social, shouldn't be determined if the server is a cluster duck in the first place, then there are many things that needs fixing anyway

and if you are arguing if chatbox requirements can by bypassed, that would only fuel the "why not global" debate

and I assume, that we all agree on that global would be a bad thing anyway

[faint folio]

No, a cluster. Eg the officials, or the asura servers, or noobz on legacy. A bunch of servers run by the same people that tends to share a community

[sage yew]

sounds logical

[faint folio]

The obvious answer is global allows groups of people who are NOT friendly to one another to harass in chat, grief, flame war, and generally be toxic to each other. Those groups of people usually don't share vc anyways because they're not friendly

[sage yew]

okay, if no one wants to take my part - at least for a bit
...I need a break, will come back to this topic once I have new ideas to this

I'm not willing to give it up right now, but I'm currently running out of ideas

[faint folio]

Local cuts down on it simply because if you don't like what someone says you can kill them and remove their ability to chat near you

Species specific local is its own can of worms though

[sage yew]

and I totally agree here

I really love the approach of the Isle
feels fresh, and kinda brave

[faint folio]

Idk, I guess I'd rather design the game so that it gets increasingly more difficult to maintain a pack as you approach the pack limit, and it becomes extremely difficult to upkeep after you exceed pack size. Eg food/water amounts, etc. Communication doesn't matter if you are going to starve, and such a system permits players to opt in as it were by accepting the risk of increasing pack size

[sage yew]

it's just so hard to find convincing ways

[faint folio]

I do like evrimas chat. It's such a breath of fresh air compared to other no rules games like day of dragons which still has global

Especially because of clans in that game, global gets so ugly. The game encourages mix packing so species specific chat wouldn't work, but I really think removing global and requiring all communication via local would do wonders for the game

[faint folio]

Agreed. And I think that's why the devs haven't released any mechanics/fixes for overpacking yet. It takes a lot of time to find the answer to hard questions

[uneven mist]

@fallow fiber quetz is confirmed but idk about a pick up ability, sounds unbalanced

[burnt bone]

I’m still hopeful that my ideas for expanding mega/mixpack scent should help a bit without being too punishing.

That plus migrations for herbies

[burnt bone]

About that…

[uneven mist]

They looks more like it landed, killed the Galli then picked it up and flew away

[burnt bone]

Could be, we will have to see. If it only lands for a brief time, it might as well not land lol

[faint folio]

Not to mention that not all of the interactions on concept art make it into the final playable. A pickup ability, imo, is a really bad idea. It would be like land croc right now (sprint faster than Utah on land, lunge, carry back to water and drown), but adding in that dropping 3 feet can kill some (not even that large) dinos... Yeah, pass on that

I think the mechanic would be fundamentally bad for balance... Whereas croc, at least when it's sub stage isn't completely broken from overtuning, is really only a threat right at the waters edge

[urban flax]

Not a fan of quetz grabbing things either
I'd be fine with a ridiculously high damaging peck, but grabbing thing doesn't involve any form of interesting gameplay

In Primal Carnage pteras grabbing people work because everyone has guns and can save their friend before they get dropped from 10 meters high
But it's not the same thing in The Isle

[sage yew]

how about quets gets his grabbing mechanic, but people will get a mechanic to defend themselves against?

maybe somewhat HP based, if opponent has more then 10% HP he will probably mess up quetz in this process

[urban flax]

Boils down to the same problem as allowing people to wiggle free out of deino's jaws

[sage yew]

that's bad?

[urban flax]

If it's hp-based, it's even worse because then hy should quetz even try to grab anything ? Just kill it with raw damage

[urban flax]

Yes, because if a deino successfully ambushes and grab something, then it has to hope the other guy isn't skilled enough to free themselves

[sage yew]

depends maybe how a quetz actually applies "raw damage"

[urban flax]

And some players ould simply not fear water at all, although they're in the grabbing size range, because they kno they're good enough to esacpe a deino's grasp all the time

[urban flax]

I assume biting

[sage yew]

I don't see the problem here ....usually people hate on that grabbing mechanic because it's basically a one-click-solution

[urban flax]

It'd still be the same
But the other way around

[sage yew]

sure, but how effective will it be?

[sage yew]

eh what? why?

[faint folio]

I mean... As long as gravity is the strongest attack in the game, quetz getting any height at all before being forced to drop what it grabs would be... Bad

[urban flax]

Effective enough so it can kill its prey
Unless you want to force it into grabbing things, which makes the mechanic into a counterbalance for something that is intentionnally made weak just to accomodate for it instead of an actual special ability

[faint folio]

Fall damage would basically need to be nerfed heavily (especially for things small enough to be grabbed by quetz) so that they could survive a fall if they freed quickly enough

[urban flax]

In order to have interactivity, you need to have both parties be involved until the end of the interaction. Right now the interaction begins hen deino gets out of the water and ends when it grabs its prey. Which is kinda terrible, but if the prey can then wiggle free, then it is the same thing, because Deino's ability to do anything stopped hen it lunged.

In order for that to work, it would need to be a ping-pong mechanic until one party fails. Hence why people have often been suggesting opposed QTEs or tug-of-war.

[sage yew]

"Effective enough so it can kill its prey" is a relative comparison
but how effective will it be in practice? it has a huge body, how about outmanouvering it and biting is maybe just to week to keep up ...so you go for a grab and both players should have an option to interact with each other in such a case

"n order to have interactivity, you need to have both parties be involved until the end of the interaction."
That's just what Im suggesting

[urban flax]

So grab ends up being a mechanic made to compensate for a weakness that is made to allow for a grab mechanic to exist

[sage yew]

I assume, yes

[urban flax]

But the prey's involvement stops as soon as the quetz grabs them
Unless they have a QTE to get free and the quetz has a QTE as well (on top of needing to control its flight) to prevent it from escaping

[sage yew]

"But the prey's involvement stops as soon as the quetz grabs them"
who says this

[faint folio]

That might work for deino because you don't take damage from swimming until you drown. But any carry mechanic in the air would basically require the whole interaction to take place on the ground or close enough to avoid huge fall damage... And honestly even Utah doesn't have to fall far before it loses half health or dies

[urban flax]

The game engine

[sage yew]

eh no? This has nothing to do with it

oh wait, you're arguing on how this issue is currently solved? No. I'm talking about an overhaul. Nothing should remain, like it is right now

[urban flax]

I'm basing my deduction how current lunge mechanic for deino works. I can imagine ways for it to be better and more interactive, but these cannnot apply for the situation of a quetz grabbing an animal. So I assume that if it's implemented, it will end up being just like current deino's lunge.

[sage yew]

#general-feedback message

pls consider reading this

[urban flax]

I don't see how that would work ith a flying animal trying to lift a smaller one off the ground

[faint folio]

That would be a decent idea for croc and Utah... But like bubulblu, I don't really see a way to implement that between a flying creature and a terrestrial creature

[urban flax]

Unless the quetz spends like 20 seconds struggling and them both changing directions like crazy on the ground

[sage yew]

simply translate distance into height, as anyone grabbed could use shifts in bodyweight to pull that beast down why it tries to gain height

[faint folio]

Because the problem is, even if the terrestrial wins the contest, and the aerial drops it... In most cases the fall damage will kill or seriously injure the terrestrial, including almost certain leg breaks

[sage yew]

that's why gaining hight should be a struggle in that case

[urban flax]

So you just hold the down button and wait for the game to assume it's your turn so you can lower its altitude a bit, before it rises again ?

[sage yew]

no

[urban flax]

Then please explain

[sage yew]

I don't have a specific solution, but I'd suggest a more involving process, like observing the balancing and weight distribution of the grab and maybe counteract it with precise mouse movements while difficulty could be determined by various factors

[urban flax]

That seems hella complex for a game with 100 players on a server

[sage yew]

poor devs

[faint folio]

Have you played left for dead? They have a zombie called the jockey that has the special ability to piggy back ride you, and it will try to steer your character into hazards. You can counter that by observing the way the jockey leans (the direction he wants to guide your player) and spam movement keys to counter it and retain control. That's the basis of damus's suggestion, and it or something similar might be possible

[urban flax]

Yes I have played Left for Dead 2, but on the ground there are 4 directions in which to go. If you're being lifted and trying to get back on the ground there's only one direction.

[sage yew]

especially if such a problem was already somewhat solved, it only needs translation into a dino game

[urban flax]

"it only needs translation into a dino game"
Into a dino survival game involving one player flying, nothing less.
I'm usually optimistic about mechanics and such for this game, but I really can't see this one working well.

[faint folio]

True

[sage yew]

it's a two-player-interaction
nothing else

don't over complicate it by throwing meta data into the mix

[urban flax]

I know there's also Dead by Daylight in which, when you're being carried by the killer, you can wiggle and influence the killer's direction, but it's basically useless. It's only use is that after some time, you break free so the killer is limited in the distance it can carry you.

[sage yew]

even Dino Crisis from 1999 had such a mechanic

https://youtu.be/cWVrHmnMCK4

[faint folio]

Not so simple in 3d space though... Especially where 1 has a significant advantage to safe movement over the other... Falling isn't scary to a flying creature

[urban flax]

I'm not throwing it into the mix. Ofc if you don't consider the fact one of the players is flying it's easy to implement. But as a matter of fact, one of the players is flying in this situation. And it needs to be taken into account.

[sage yew]

so what O_o
stuff can work in 3 dimensions

[urban flax]

I don't see a mechanic here, just a cinematic

[sage yew]

bad example, look it up for your self then

[faint folio]

It can... But it's a lot more complicated. And essentially the carried dinosaur doesn't care about any other direction except down, so there would only be one button that would ever be used

[sage yew]

would consider that this battle mainly takes place between grabbing and taking of, so you have a chance to get away before he gets too high

[sage yew]

why is everyone interpreting it as an one dimensional process?

he grabs you slightly of center, you distribute weight to the left, he counteracts this, you act against it to the right and so on and the higher the precision of your inputs are, the more will he struggle to gain height

actually, involve all stearing into this, WASD and mousemovement

we live in 2023, nothing should have a one-click-solution

make mechanics great again

...sorry

[orchid moon]

@crystal trail is it possible to add it in update 6.5?

[burnt bone]

Im not saying it’s a good idea, just one that is in the concept art, so it could be a thing. Personally I’d prefer if quetz had to land to attack, but would deal HEAVY damage with its peck. Then it could pick up bodies much larger in comparison of other dinos and fly away. That way it has counterplay while trying to kill. If you swoop down to kill a pachy, you better hope it doesn’t have a buddy or 2 who can make it so you won’t fly away again.

[sage yew]

considering that quetz will weigh around 750kg, what would be an adequate pickup weight?

[sage yew]

@grand folio
you might be interested into this
#general-feedback message

[rare fractal]

Something around 50 kilos or less

[proud coral]

Flyers grabbing players has always concerned me ;-; Like it's a very cool idea, yeah.....but what about the victim? Do they just sit there like they do with a Deino lunging them and just wait to die while being unable to play the game? What's to stop the Quetzal from just carrying them around as long as possible to further extend their wait? Regardless, it's a cool idea but I'd like to remain in control of the game pls ;o;

We've got stagger, knockdown, Deino lunge....all of those are just "haha no input for you!" :C

[sage yew]

would give it some wiggle room, lets say 75 to 100
I mean, in JP it's picking up a human

and 50 is reeeealy close to a fresh spawn

[sage yew]

"Flyers grabbing players has always concerned me ;-; Like it's a very cool idea, yeah.....but what about the victim?"

we've just discussed it, look above

[rare fractal]

Well, yeah JP has no idea what gravity is tho, a Quetz wouldn’t even be able to pick up a human of any weight given how it’s feet are shaped

[proud coral]

Oh I just popped in

[sage yew]

to be honest, I agree ...but gameplay wise?

[rare fractal]

For the sake of gameplay it has no business picking up anything

[proud coral]

The weight shifting idea makes me think of Golden Eagles grabbing onto goats and struggling to pull them towards the cliff's edge to drop em. Also like my old Argentavis idea heeheehee

[sage yew]

just wanted to notify, so you don't miss it ;)

[proud coral]

[rare fractal]

How would Quetz even do this with its head tho?

[proud coral]

I'm not 100% sure, but thinking about it is making my neck hurt

It's so long, so that just sounds painful to try and lift something heavy up

[rare fractal]

Not to mention during flight

And this is only assuming it’s 3 times it’s actual weight

[sage yew]

maybe "grab" could be just a short "pull up" so playables lose balance or get yeeted few meters, instead flying away with them

[rare fractal]

Cuz if going by how big it actually is we’re looking at 250 kilos

[feral solstice]

I hate the idea of a grab

We already have Deino and it sucks

When you’re the one grabbed that is

[sage yew]

a big eagle can pull up a small child... don't know if it's myth or truth
but lets say,
50% of quetz mass = short pull, to make them tremble
25% of quetz mass = short pull, potential bone brakes, possible to yeet them over a cliff or so
15% of quetz mass = and he flyies away with you

[feral solstice]

Just give Quetz a sort of “thrust forward” spear attack that deals HEAVY damage

It adds a skill ceiling for Quetz combat

[sage yew]

agree, but that's like an alpha gameplay mechanic
considering a bit of effort being put into this, it could be much more interesting

[feral solstice]

Yeah sorry, I can’t see anything more interesting about it.
It’ll just be swoop in while flying, hold RMB and hold space

Unless the devs bring in some glorious new idea for grabs, I can’t see it being fun tbh

[sage yew]

with "more interesting" I mean that it does not have to be a one dimensional process, like hold LMB/RMB and could actually involve two-player-interaction

[sage yew]

#general-feedback message

[rare fractal]

Grabs are lame, Quetz is probably the animal that is the least sensible to have one, no reason to give it one

[sage yew]

and short pulls?
50% grab + 50% momentum = balance loss

then the quetz can go over to close combat

because when quetz needs to be on land to fight, I assume it wouldn't be viable, considering it's clunky dimensions

[rare fractal]

That’s the idea

[burnt bone]

If you mean body pick up like in my suggestion, prob about 100kg fine, but up to 550kg but slow flying and high stam cost

[rare fractal]

It’s not supposed to be super combatively impressive unless it can land those higher damage blows, ideally while grounded exclusively since there’s no other way to engage with it

[rare fractal]

Quetz carrying its entire body weight mid flight?

Quetz carrying 10% of its body weight mid flight is alright sorta absurd…

[sage yew]

that's sounds really a bit too much

[burnt bone]

It picked up a Gali and is shown with bodies high up. I don’t see why not personally

[sage yew]

but it could be a thing in a "game" tbh
if balance allows it

[rare fractal]

Oh I think that’s an embarrassingly silly idea

[sage yew]

don't call it silly

[rare fractal]

Like I have no idea why Quetz would be able to carry something heavier than itself mid flight

[sage yew]

it's a thought, notning wrong with that

[rare fractal]

I’m talking about the concept art

[sage yew]

yea, like flying away would be really too much
I'm currently more into this "short pull" idea

[burnt bone]

Unless it’s not 500kg… could be scared up in weight

[rare fractal]

That’d be lame, it’d be cool if Quetz was kinda hard to play

[sage yew]

dependent on thermals and good winds.... oh yeesssssss

[rare fractal]

Thermals as far as has been communicated to us are only going to act as updrafts, it’s not going to ever entirely ground a flyer

[tall hearth]

Devs have said they want wind currents, so I'm all for wind affecting flight.

[rare fractal]

Would be neat

[sage yew]

but it should be an important factor for performance

[rare fractal]

Sure but it shouldn’t remove your flight

[sage yew]

true

[burnt bone]

If anything this body looks about the size of Gali, and it was already shown picking up Gali. So this may show it pulling bodies up high away from scavengers.

[sage yew]

...how can this thing fly in the first place
it just blows my mind how this beast is shaped

[faint folio]

According to some falconers I know, eagles (or at least the north American species) can fly with about half their body weight, and they weigh ~10-12 pounds, so they aren't flying with anything more than 5-6 pounds, implying that eagles carrying off kids is myth.

Though the same falconers say that eagles can definitely kill heavier than that, and can drag (via momentum from a swoop/dive) heavier prey around for a few feet-- this is how those golden eagles can "fly" with and "kill" goats. Really it's using momentum to knock them off a cliff, and then hang on for dear life and prepare for impact. The fall is what kills the goats

[rare fractal]

Quetz also isn’t even remotely similar physiologically to an Eagle tbf

[burnt bone]

That’s why i sait up to 550, so it can pick up a Gali. Though, it would probably be a labored flight, not just gliding around like nothing.

[sage yew]

interesting

[sage yew]

eagles are big ...that's the only thing I took into account
quetz is like a flying giraf

[burnt bone]

Like closer to ptera z flight, but actually propelling upwards

[rare fractal]

If it’s specifically bodies and not live players I think that’s fine

[faint folio]

True. To be honest I don't really see pterosaurs being able to carry more proportional to their weight than birds, simply due to their anatomy

[sage yew]

considering 500kg of opponents weight, I'm still more into the idea, that quetz is able to throw them to the ground, instead of lifting up

so they can land and go into close combat

[burnt bone]

Yeah that’s what I’m talking about, dragging dead bodies away. I REALLY don’t want aerial deino either.

[rare fractal]

Their anatomy doesn’t permit them to carry anything that doesn’t fit at the back of their mouth….and that only scales down the larger they get…especially with the longer necked azdarchids

[sage yew]

I see quetz mostly a bigger danger for juvis and small subs

[faint folio]

But yeah. If it wants to fly away with dead players that's perfectly fine

But aerial deino seems like it is a super bad idea

[rare fractal]

Grabs in general need to be looked at

[sage yew]

true

[rare fractal]

Cuz they’re easily the most difficult to balance if not counter intuitive abilities by far

[burnt bone]

Like land down, deal devastating damage, get out. If you don’t kill your target within a few moments, a counterattack can be lethal, especially if they have a group. Like a group of pachies or even just 1 can break your wing and prevent flying.

[sage yew]

it still makes me chuckle when a deino runs with a big ass carno around like a puppy with his favourite stick

[rare fractal]

Oh honestly how would a Quetz possible deal with a Pachy, like why is it even trying

[sage yew]

maybe a quetz shouldn mess with pachy though...

[rare fractal]

That’s one of your worst possible targets

Really just a shouldn’t

[burnt bone]

If it can get an ambush and kill it quickly, then it has a chance. Though it is generally a bad idea lol

[faint folio]

Honestly, in a similar vein, I think I'd prefer an aerial tackle (functioning as grab and drag to the ground/knock down with momentum) rather than a pick up. Eg aerial carno

[burnt bone]

Just the easiest example I could think of.

[sage yew]

sounds like quetz is going overpowered again if it can do it

okay, but to be fair, a pachy does not need to be 100% at this point

[rare fractal]

Is it hitting as hard as a deino?

[burnt bone]

It would be no different from carno with a ram, except the moment it misses, that quetz is done for.

[rare fractal]

And ideally it’s insanely difficult to ambush with Quetz of all things

Their are drawbacks to being a biplane sized kite

[burnt bone]

Big shadow on the ground doesn’t help lol

[rare fractal]

And I can’t imagine you’d be all that quiet either

[sage yew]

could be interesting and you have to flee into the woods and stuff

[rare fractal]

I don’t think most animals should have to

Like a Pachy seeing a Quetz coming should just stand and watch it try

[sage yew]

a grown up? totally

[rare fractal]

Yeah usually I’d specify if I meant a sub or juvi

[sage yew]

but a sub pachy? hm, maybe

[burnt bone]

But if the pachy is inattentive and just sitting down on a nice big rock, ez ambush for quetz

[sage yew]

push it down the cliff!

could work

[rare fractal]

The Pachy would win that wrestle if it came down to that

You have to go for the jab

[burnt bone]

Yeah but then it’s gotta go pick it back up to safely eat it lol.

[sage yew]

noooo xD

500kg is too much to carry

[burnt bone]

Definitely, pachy wins a head-on fight.

[rare fractal]

Omni would too for obvious reasons

Unless pounce at some point is made a good mechanic

But yknow

[sage yew]

a bone break for quetz should be like a 90% death sentence

[burnt bone]

100%

[sage yew]

give him at least a sliver of a chance

because, game

[rare fractal]

I’d make survival possible in that case

[sullen delta]

with some way to manually get rid of them other than vomiting of course

oop

[rare fractal]

XD

[sullen delta]

i meant to be replying to something, sry

[sage yew]

hi

[rare fractal]

I do enjoy the idea of vomiting away a broken bone

[sullen delta]

hehehhe

[rare fractal]

Snaps femur, vomits, good as new

[burnt bone]

Unless there’s nothing to kill it, then it’s likely going to die to anything combat capable. Like you could survive if it’s like a juvie Omni, but you’re basically a paper kite that lacks any of the benefits of being a kite.

[sage yew]

fair

[burnt bone]

Plus, it’s the quetz’s fault if it gets broken, actions have consequences lol

[sage yew]

don't try to mess with pachy

[drifting rose]

@cosmic lake this will most likely come in the future where deino will be able to grab bigger targets but they are also able to fight back also the dodging while drink and eating is just dumb if a deino catches u it catches u there should only be a trashing mechanic where u can attempt to escape but only if the deinos stam is low

[gusty hull]

@oblique creek @tall hearth @tardy barn Tier 1/2 herbivores or those that couldn't defend themselves against medium-sized predators will be able to hang out with other herbivores without the stress debuff (for them, the others would have a 10 - 15% debuff [decay percentage over the course of time] depending on the tier of the other herbivore; with the exception of the galli which will have this same effect) already tier 3/4 herbivores will apply a 10 - 20% debuff to dinosaurs of the same family, for example the hadrosauriformes: tenonto would have an effect of 10 % in maya, para, shant; maia and para apply a 15% effect on each other; maia and para will apply a 20% effect on the shant (the same applies to marginocephaly and other groups). tier 3/4 ones will apply a 20% effect on tier 3/4 ones that are of different species. Tier 5 ones will apply a 30% effect on anyone who is not of the same species or family; for example shant and trike. For carnivores the effect will be 40%. Remembering that this does not reveal how much you lose just by looking at another dinosaur, it will gradually decay with over time and in a total time of, for example, 3 hours, these would be the values that would fall to BOTH SIDES. Carnivores and herbivores would have a 50% debuff regardless of species and tier.

It's an idea of how the stress system we discussed earlier would work. If you don't like something and have an idea, let me know.

[tall hearth]

Abusable, no

Also stress is a beasts of bermuda thing, we dont need that in the isle

[tardy barn]

yea, there's just waaay too many checks and mechanics you would have to do just to prevent stress from being abused.

[tall hearth]

Also what's to stop the game from thinking a Herrera chilling in a tree on it's own is mixpacking with a dino group a few feet away

Or even if it or anything else is just stalking. Like the cover is blown once the debuff starts

[limber hull]

exactly

imagine getting stressed from a deino you cant see

[tall hearth]

You wanna play a scavenger role and follow an apex around taking free meat? Uh sorry you get stressed to death sorry

The debuff just removes playstyles from players

[tardy barn]

i mean that's the whole point of it

to remove mixpacking

😎

i do agree that it's just too abusable

[tall hearth]

Apex groups and hypers should be mixpack deterrents themselves.

Or other strains, not just hypers

[feral solstice]

The best you could do is implement a same-species anti-megapack mechanic where it increases the hunger drain of anything that’s apart of the megapack, and this would only be good if the creature is a cannibal.

Because at that point, if someone’s going to try and abuse the mechanic.. you’re a cannibal so they’re food

[tardy barn]

i said something like that earlier too i think you can make stress work for overpacking

it's much much harder to use that in a way to actually grief people with it

[feral solstice]

You’re essentially discouraging cannibal megapacks like the 5+ carnos and making them split up or kill each other since the game doesn’t allow them to stick together

Which is great

[tall hearth]

I dont that thatd be needed once the roster is expanded. There will be so many choices itll be harder for people to megapack at all.

Plus once strains are in, it would essentially be useless. Theyd smell a mega pack from a huge distance (hopefully) and rush that direction to get easy food.

[tardy barn]

you're right and i don't really think it's that good of an idea in the first place, ideally starving would prevent mega packs

[tall hearth]

Theyd hopefully starve themselves. It should be really hard to sustain a megapack in the future with more variety and the group having a beacon that they're close. Just stay away and they'll starve themselves from lack of food

[tardy barn]

not to change the topic but the devblog said they were adding perks and i was hoping that you fellas would have seen more info on that

and how much of an effect perks should have in your opinions

or if perks should be gimmicks or outright stat increases

personally, i would be pretty disappointed if perks devolve into everyone taking +10% damage or something like that

[tall hearth]

I feel like there should also be different symbols to determine what the pack is. Like if it's an omni megapack, the symbol would be something that would be easy to identify as omni. Or carno.

Mixpacks would just have the mixpack symbol. It could include tier of dinos. Like if it's a mixpack of smalls and mid tiers, it could have small and mid sized dino icons. Apexes and mids, itd have an apex and mid icon.

I'd have to see perk examples to think of further ideas. I wanna know what the devs intent for basic perks, and I'd expand my ideas on that.

[tardy barn]

That's fair.

[burnt bone]

Well we know they aren’t doing stuff like +10 damage, they want more playstyle changes rather than just buffs.

Like maybe teno can now dive underwater, but now has to eat underwater plants.
Or pachy can now jump higher, but jump costs more stamina.

[tardy barn]

im very happy to hear that they're going in that direction

tho if it is more about playstyle changes they should probably rename them to traits or something like that

[icy lion]

@west crater Are you able to use night vision?

[west crater]

@icy lion not in evrima..unless theres a keybind i dont know of?

[icy lion]

Default is X

[west crater]

@icy lion thank you its been awhile ..things have changed

[clever lion]

Who ping me in here

[tall hearth]

use the searchbar to look for whoever mentioned you.

[sage yew]

How big should a server be?
And I don't want to start another size-contra-performance debate.

Beside of render distance is the population count probably one of the biggest problems of open world survival games.

Assuming there will be a huge amount of playables available, how likely would it be to encounter a herd?
Let's say we get at least 20 playables (for the sake of math), that are equality good, interesting and likely to be played, that would mean on a 100 slot Server, 5 players in a herd/pack/group on average, per species.

On paper this doesn't sound good at all.

[agile roost]

#general-feedback message
I think there's a better place to suggest that

[icy flare]

where

[agile roost]

Like, in an email?

[limber hull]

or through their official application systems lol

[icy flare]

feels like u pretend that there is a obvious email to concat the isle devs..

[limber hull]

[e-mail]

there you go, that's their official hiring email

[icy flare]

why always so harsh when someone ask something .

[limber hull]

how is that harsh

[icy flare]

now that is a practical and frndly respond

[limber hull]

????

[icy flare]

thanks

[limber hull]

to be clear, they are searching for people with these kinds of skills, not just anyone who wants to throw ideas at them

this is quite old, so things may have changed since this post was made

[icy flare]

yep. not gonna apply now. but its good for me to know where. when im further in my studys and have more knowledge i will try to apply

[dire ridge]

[icy flare]

[icy flare]

good thing my degrees focus is on programming and ui design 🙂

[limber hull]

meanwhile my degree is in game design lmao

and they already got game designers so... damn

[icy flare]

times changes we never know whats gonna happen 😄 but year i still need at least a good year or two to have enough knowledge and skills to work and be part on such projects

[agile roost]

Yup

[robust dome]

@barren zephyr do you have any skills in developping the isle ?

Or I mean videogames

[sage yew]

I think he've meant the "lol"
like what are you laughing about

but was probably used as a catchphrase and everyone got confused

[sage yew]

lol

[sage yew]

@torn bane
"idea for cera, some sort of immunity from ceras bacteries after u already got poisoned by his bacterias 2 times"

this got a lot of downvotes. Like, what's wrong with that?

[tawdry oyster]

@polar inlet Group limit is a thing

[polar inlet]

we are 2

[tawdry oyster]

So that might’ve been the thing restricting you from inviting

[tawdry oyster]

2 deinos?

[polar inlet]

me and my friend cannot join

[urban flax]

Like, becoming immune to cera's only way of defense after fighting 2 of them ?

[torn bane]

idk i meant immunity from one player not from all ceras

[urban flax]

Why tho ?

[torn bane]

idk

cause when you being hunted by one cera for 3 hours

it's not so great

[urban flax]

I think you die long before 3 hours

[tall hearth]

I don't think one cerato is gonna hunt someone for 3 hours

[sage yew]

Act 1: cera poisens you
Act 2: you survive and heal infection off
Act 3: you have (50%?) resistance build up
Act 4: Immunity wears off

[urban flax]

But what is the reason for the resistance to even exist in the first place

[tall hearth]

I dont think there should be immunity. Otherwise cerato cant do its corpse bullying job well.

[sage yew]

you survived an dangerous encounter, could be rewarded
"rewarded" or in other words, "punish" the cera for not finishing it's job

[urban flax]

But the cea's job is not to kill the other player
It's to make them go away

[sage yew]

he still can in such a case

[tall hearth]

The reward for surviving is not being dead, and the punishment for cera is not getting food.

But as cerato is a corpse bully, it won't have much need to hunt as it can eat rotten corpses

[sage yew]

for this purpose this should work perfectly fine, as you could get rid of him, for the duration the opponent suffers from the poison debuff

[urban flax]

Also if, as devs said, you don't get the poison sickness in one bite, that's literally being rewarded for staying in the fight like an idiot instead of avoiding the debuff

[urban flax]

But why do they get a buff afterwards ? So they can revenge better ?

[sage yew]

so cera can't just stack the poison on someone by landing lucky shots
in that way it would make poison into a defence weapon

[urban flax]

What ?

[sage yew]

what what?

[urban flax]

What do you mean by stacking poison ?

[sage yew]

Act 1: you get bitten by cera,and you flee - because you are poisened
Act 2: cera stalks and finds you after certain duration
Act 3: cera just poisens you again?

Don't know it should stack that way

[urban flax]

I don't see the problem in that
Cera is still a predator, if it manages to hunt another creature it's on them for not managing to get away

[sage yew]

but cera could abuse it, as he only comes to attack you ...lets say every 15 min

one bite, escape
play the waiting game
come back, bite again
escape
play the waiting game

and so on

[urban flax]

It will require multiple bites to procc poison
Also what you're describing is a smart and skilled player

[sage yew]

multiple bites
like 3 bites?
or like % chance of poisen effect?

[urban flax]

Nothing is chance-based in evrima
So most likely a number of bites that depends on the target's health

[sage yew]

I prefere a % chance
because just counting bites... makes it into a number game

[crimson citrus]

I'm pretty sure after a few bites Cera will lose the bacteria in its mouth and will have to eat something again to fill up it's poison meter again (hopefully) so it shouldn't be a big problem

[sage yew]

fair

[urban flax]

Oh yeah forgot that was mentioned as well

[crimson citrus]

Ah so it was mentioned after all? Cool

[sage yew]

but building up resistance doesn't sound that bad though

like antibiotika, the more you take, the less effective they become

[urban flax]

Kissen said Cera would need to build up its bacteria by eating meat, I assume it won't stay forever

[urban flax]

So rewarding people for misplaying

[sage yew]

rewarding for surviving

[urban flax]

Surviving is the reward

[sage yew]

sure, but this reward is only a penalty for cera
not like you actually gain anything from it, beside of that cera doesn't keeps his strengths against you

[obsidian jetty]

It really does sound bad tho. It's kinda the only thing the Cera has. If I am not mistaken the Cera is neither particularly fast nor agile. Plus...that also would be abusable. If it's "the bacteria" in general...just mixpack with a cera that bites you every couple minutes...like a vaccination xD

[urban flax]

So cera is penalized for using its ability ?

[urban flax]

omg mythridatization in The Isle

[sage yew]

carelessly? yes

same could be applied to broken bones due to blunt dmg
healed bones could become stronger

(fall dmg does not count)

[urban flax]

How is it using its ability carelessly ? If a cera is using its ability to make another creature run away and steal their food, that's literally how it's supposed to play

[sage yew]

A troll, that runs around, just biting random people and play hit&run

[urban flax]

And bones becoming stronger after being broken is even worse, because pachy is already in the game and we KNOW it's not supposed to do anything else but break its predators legs and run

Literally carnos running up to pachys to get their legs broken and then becoming immune to pachy's only way of defense

[sage yew]

effect could wear off over time

[urban flax]

So you would add a mechanic that punishes every cera player just for the sake of punishing the ones who go around and attack people ?

[urban flax]

But again, why even add it in the first place
That's just punishing a creature for using its main (and arguably only) way of defense

Also bones becoming stronger after being broken is... I know the Isle isn't going for realism, but this is literally the opposite of realism

Irl bones get weaker after being broken once (unless you're a kid when you break said bone)

[sage yew]

could be specifc to that cera
you won't become imune to all ceras

okay, I'm not gonna invent here every aspekt of it
if you have concerns, that anything could lead to unwanted effects, try to figgure out yourself how it could be done

I'm not here for defending ideas

[urban flax]

I figured out
Don't add resistance to a mechanic that you're supposed to avoid proccing in the first place

[sage yew]

if you just say it's stupid and keep asking me about every aspekt of it, I will just run out of ideas

[urban flax]

I think I gave decent arguments, that you haven't really answered to

[sage yew]

I just stumbled uppon this idea and though, "hey, might be interesting"
and not "just ask me if you have questions, because I have all the answers"

I hate it to be put constantly into a defending position, just because I don't want to dismiss every idea from the start

[urban flax]

It's your choice to defend bad ideas

[sage yew]

it's your choise to basically request from me, to solve every problem that might be related to an idea

[urban flax]

I'm not the kind of person to say "this idea is bad and I'm not gonna elaborate"
As long as you stay in the conversation, it means you're still up to argue

[sage yew]

I'm not here to convince you

work with that idea, or let it be
but I'm not going to defend anything if the only thing that is coming from you is an contra

[urban flax]

Are you saying I'm wrong to give arguments against an idea I find bad ?
Maybe no one should ever argue about their ideas then

[obsidian jetty]

It's not that the idea is overall bad....like...the Cera itself being immune to Cera's bacteria would make sense, I wouldn't want to vomit every time I bite my own tongue ^^...maybe some other species could have some degree of resistance, but what I don't like is the "everyone can build up an immunity"-part

[urban flax]

I honestly think cera being resistant to other cera's poison makes sense
Especially if they're cannibals

[sage yew]

if your only incentive is to dismiss it, yes, it is
if you have a problem, figure out a solution to it or find other way around

that's a conversation, give pros, give contras, but don't just force others to give all the pros, just to convince you of anything

I'm so tired of this

[urban flax]

I already told you what my solution was, in that case, which was to not add it at all. If you, for whatever reason, think it should be in anyways despite me explaining why it shouldn't, it's on you to give reasons why
I'm not gonna invent reasons to add something I don't want to see in the game

[sage yew]

big brain time, just dismiss it, perfect solution

[urban flax]

Well in this case, yes

It's not like I was just saying "it's bad and stupid" I gave reasons why

[icy flare]

If bones get stronger after break people would just jump cliffs that breaks bones but not kill ‘em

[sage yew]

I wrote there that fall dmg would not count for this

[icy flare]

Did not saw it sry

[sage yew]

I was reading all your arguments again and most of them ware question of how such an effect would impact the gameplay while you are only focusing on the negatives, which forces me (or others) to take a defending position, while your answers constantly imply some weird stuff, like "rewarding people for misplaying" ....just.... why

why should this be my or anyone's intention?
and then you are arguing that it is a defence mechanic, but then you are stating that it's for hunting - what now?

also arguing in buff and nerf terms is just arbitrary, as it would be simply something that would need to be taken under consideration

same like for raptor. Why should be a raptor punished using it's main ability, by losing stamina? Because it makes sense

so why shouldn't it be a problem, if cera just starts randomly using it's venom, to render other people helpless against others? Even worth, when he keeps doing it over and over to you, or other individual?

What would stop cera from being the manipulative troll? That Idea might maybe not be perfect, but it's not on me to make that idea perfect and it's not my part, to convince you of anything, if you just think "it's bad"

[tall hearth]

That's the plan actually.

[urban flax]

The thing is, I don't see any upside to such a mechanic
And the downsides far outweigh the only one you gave to me, which is to prevent trolls
Which I'm not even sure is an upside since I think a cera going around and attacking everyone it sees will already be punished easily enough in the form of dying

As for the "rewarding people for misplaying" you're the one building up toxin resistance is a reward. But when does someone get an infection ? When they're fighting a cera, get bitten multiple times and don't kill it. So yes, in my opinion, if they get something positive out of that, that's rewarding them for misplaying.

[sage yew]

it's like talking to a catholic about the existence of god
he exists and my arguments are more valid then yours - now prove me wrong

[urban flax]

As for omni's stam drain on pounce, it's a completely different thing. Stamina is used among all playables to control how much, and for how long, they can do certain actions. It's a balance tool to prevent infinite fights, infinite running, or infinite whatever. I don't even see how it is related

[tall hearth]

There will always be trolls in game. Pachy can run up to 3 animals, break their bones and run. Carno can charge, knock an animal down and not follow up. Even deino can. It can lunge and grab a player, take it to the bottom of the river and just let it swim to shore.

There is no stopping trolling. You cant stop humans from doing human things in a video game. You cant force every single player to act like an animal at every turn. Forcing players down a gameplay pipeline takes the fun out of the game.

[sage yew]

like resistance wouldn't be a balance tool at all

[urban flax]

An unjustified one

[sage yew]

and that's your argument?
okey then

[urban flax]

You know the saying ? "If it's not broken, don't fix it"
I can't tell for sure if the toxic bite from cerato will be balanced or not, and neither can you. But if it proves unbalanced in one way or another, resistance buildup is definitely not the first think I would think of to fix it.

[sage yew]

it's not about fixing
It's about talking about ideas and definitely not about convincing you

if your only concern is that you are disliking it, fine

[tall hearth]

They gave reasons why it's not a good idea already.

[sage yew]

and I gave solutions to them, but I surely can't come up with every possible answer, as it wasn't even my idea in the first place

[tall hearth]

But you're defending it?

[sage yew]

because I wanted to talk about it and didn't wanted to see it as dismissed from the start

but how should I have known that it will end in "It's a bad idea until you have proven me wrong"

[tall hearth]

If I'm defending an idea and cant think of anything more, I'll either drop the idea or shelve it and think of other ways to bolster the idea or ways to change how it works, or even branch off and come up with a similar yet different idea entirely

[sage yew]

yes, thats it!

as I really don't have a clue if it could work out at all
it was just interesting

[cyan flame]

@sage yewI feel I should point this out, since it might be helpful for you. When you present an idea, it is on you to provide backing for it, to give the arguments as to why this idea should be considered and implemented. When you present an idea, you are the defendant of that idea, otherwise you presumably would not have presented it in the first place, so you will be expected to provide said defense if someone criticises it. And while you would not be expected to present a perfect idea, it is on you to already have thought through it on your own, looking at both the good and the bad, and trying to figure out if the idea is good or bad and so on. You can't just throw out an idea and see how it goes or hope that someone else defends it for you. And it is your job to convince those that question it that your idea is good, since you are the one suggesting it. And if you can not do that, then your idea was at best not thought through, at worst just outright bad, and that is something you should then learn from.

[sage yew]

I have not presented that idea

[tall hearth]

In this case though, building up resistance to a septic bite doesnt seem to work. Its buffing players who want to play carelessly. They shouldnt be rewarded with immunity for attempting to fight cerato and failing 2 or more times.

Now, a perk or diet option that lessens the effects of the septic bite overall may work, but not outright immunity.

[cyan flame]

You were the one that brought it up here, adding to it, suggesting ways for it to work. This does imply that you are in favour of it and that you looked at it and went "Yes, this is a good idea". And the things you did bring up is what you provided, so you still have to defend that.

[sage yew]

your assumption that I have to provide all the answers, is wrong
as I don't have them in the first place. It's not on me to make it work in every possible scenario people might consider. They can simply ad, remove or alter something to bypass their issiues, but I'm not going to solve every problem, of every Idea, I might consider