Feedback on Fission Line (Fission Reactor and all the recipes)

[limber terrace]

SpaceStation is a fancy CleanRoom 🙂

[heady brook]

Is it intentional that the argon enriched atmosphere isn't fully recycable for the molybdenum rotor?

so to make 1 rotor, we need 168B of Argon enriched atmosphere.
During the process, we produce 820B of Inert Furnace Atmosphere.
820B of Inert Furnace Exhaust Atmosphere produces 164B of of Argon Enriched Atmosphere.
So we are missing 4B of Argon Enriched Atmosphere

[patent canyon]

only Inert Furnace fully looped, since u can gather argon from mars atmo

[heady brook]

does it? Cause we need to have 840B of Inert Furnace to perfectly loop it

This recipe right?

[patent canyon]

it looped at ingot level

[heady brook]

oh yeah you're right. I must have miscalculated somewhere here

[proud shale]

It’s fully looped when you trigger the first reaction

But it’s a really complicated line

So it’s expected that through EMI you may make mistakes

[unreal falcon]

not directly fission related but a recent change on the turbine now requires you to remove all cabling underneath the turbine which is... meh

feels bad when the visual intake is still 3x3

[patent canyon]

consistent with cooling tower

[sleek chasm]

isnt it only under the turbine textures?
although yea I agree, it unforming when theres stuff "blocking" kinda sucks, no matter realism or whatever
the multi already dont work if theres something blocking the rotor holder anyway

should just be like the lgt or plasma turbine

[sudden hound]

I was an advocate for only needing a 3x3 area but tom insisted on the 5x5 lol

[sudden hound]

it doesn't unform any more, it just shows an error

[proud shale]

yeah it's a big turbine

it needs a lot of space :p

also if it's only 3x3 then sand can't be a bother so what's the point

[mild wadi]

so... I don't know how to track heavy water consuption

at peak heat, the rod was consuming 67.13 (which I assume to be rounding up 67.125 [537/8]) mb/t, which is a value I have no idea where it comes from, as the EMI recipe lead me to believe it would take like, 440*20 mb/tick, which is definitely not the case, I was not hemoraging 160B/s... so how can I track the coolant consumption?

and, on the same note, how can I estimate how long a rod (single rod, assumed to have sufficient coolant, no active cooling) would last

I know it is something that can be calculated with just the heat % and max durability

but I have no idea how to do it

is it something around durability/(heat*2) in seconds (ignoring the initial heating)?

at a point, the thorium rods were reporting "damage 0.28" and the uranium "damage 0.87" (and maybe .88 at a moment)
these numbers do pop into mind the quadruple of the heat, so double their max temp... but again, with just a 0.28 value floating on the void, I have no clue how much time will actually take to complete the fusion

I was hoping I didn't have to go and spam some big tanks and record values, alongside a stopwatch, and do experimental physics on the videogame

please formula

[proud shale]

the formula is in the quest but this isn't the way you have to play it

just always keep heavy water in the fission

you don't have to do any calculation

[mild wadi]

which quest?

the thorium rod one?
it mentions there being a base rate shared between all of them, that is affected by temperature, but I don't know how much that is, like 1 durability unit every 1 second per 100 degrees of heat?

I've checked the energy chapter, the fission reacor quest, the thorium rod quest... but I can't find anything that concretely answers my question

and, sure, it isn't the way I have to play it, but I'd like to at least have an idea of what my expected level of consumption of heavy water is at any given configuration, or what rate of production for the fuel isotope rods I should have in order to run reactors with no downtime

[woven plinth]

I thought you placed uranium rod im lunchbox lul

[sudden hound]

slap an overclocked multiblock centrifuge on it

[sleek chasm]

a 16a ev centrifuge should be barely enough like the quest says you should do

[proud shale]

I think their fission reactor is on earth that may be why 😬

We really need to lock it properly ahah

[sudden hound]

didn't vazde send you a new jar to test

[molten lark]

nah I fully support this niche reactor usage

[mild wadi]

It isn't

[mild wadi]

all I can seem to find is "coolant fluids are able to extract 1 hu/t per 1 degree of heat", but I have no clue how this translates to a rate, much less how the damage value that is said on the reactor translates into durability loss for the fuel rods. Yes, it scales linearly and such... but at the moment, all I can do is measure things in "thorium rod cycles"

[proud shale]

Not for that

[proud shale]

But it serves literally no purpose 😂

Just always make heavy water passively and route it towards all your fission reactors

Mars fission reactors should be passive

[mild wadi]

how much?
that's literally all I'm asking, I just want to be able to predict the throughput I need to run my lines, that's all

I can plan ahead on the moon with every coolant recipe, I can plan ahead on earth with all of the combustion fuels, let me do the same for mars

I don't want to have the endless, nagging fear that adding one more reactor will suddenly suck up all the water from my base and cause a brownout, or burn all of the rods

I don't want to spam centrifuges and pumps in the anxiety that I won't have enough of the one thing I need to exist in the planet

I want to understand the mechanics I'm playing with

just tell me how it works, please, tell me how the damage is translated into durability, and how coolant and steam throughput is calculated based on heat, that's literally all I want to know

please

[proud shale]

Just run a test 😂

You can use CC

You can also use Gt computer monitor

It has a massive amount of compatibilities

You can also use redstone control system

What you are doing is first inanely useless

And you have the tools ingame to learn to control your reactor anyway you want

So use them

Be smart

Be ingenious

[mild wadi]

is it so difficult to you to just tell me what I need?

[proud shale]

Yeah

I dont have the formula in my pocket I need to go look at the repo of the mod

Also the fact that you are pretty limited with the rods

[mild wadi]

gonna do the same then, since I've literally never played with CC before, let alone the computer monitor

[proud shale]

Makes it that you would already have the numbers you wanted

By just adding a rod

Looking at the number with jade on the controller

Literally 10 minutes ingame to have all the values you want

But it’s been a day you are asking for a formula this is madness to me 😂

[mild wadi]

can you please stop laughing at my face for just asking for help?

[proud shale]

Also I’m sure Vazde shared it already on discord

Sorry 🙏

I will look it up for you this weekend

[mild wadi]

thank you
I don't know how to use the gt monitor, or CC, it's just a massive UI that I have no idea where to start for understanding, there's literally nothing in the questbook

I'm just lost

[proud shale]

Just go in creative

Insert the rods

And jade will tell you the value

[sudden hound]

I think the idea with the water is you'd just plug it into an overclocked multiblock centrifuge and that'd be good enough - the centrifuge just stops if its too fast, after all, so you don't waste power

[proud shale]

You can’t have two plutonium rods anyway

[proud shale]

Yeah that’s what you should do

[sudden hound]

like it's not really intended to be something you need to think about

[mild wadi]

what even is jade?

[proud shale]

The goal is just to force you on mars

[sudden hound]

the thinking is supposed to be for the rod heat

[sudden hound]

modern waila

[mild wadi]

and that is?

[proud shale]

The informative info window at the top of your screen

when you look at something

[mild wadi]

yeah, that just repeats the info in the block ui

[proud shale]

Well there is the info you need

[mild wadi]

I've been looking at it.
it still doesn't tell me how long a rod lasts

[proud shale]

You have coolant input and coolant ou put

[proud shale]

Yeah that’s different

Why do you need to know how long it lasts btw?

You have max duration at least

It’s the value on Emi

Well not if you put solid coolant but that’s for something else

[mild wadi]

I just want to be able to sync 4 thorium rods and 1 uranium

[proud shale]

Sync?

[mild wadi]

yeah

[proud shale]

Like you insert your uranium rod in one reactor then wait 7 minutes and insert your thorium rods?

[mild wadi]

no, I want to know what setup of reactors in parallel would make it so 4 rods are spent in the time where 1 uranium is, trying to maximise steam output, or just run iodine with it

without weird downtimes between them

[proud shale]

But that’s impossible

Thorium is shorter that uranium

The more rods you have the less long they last

Also how does that maximize steam output?

Or how does that allow to run iodide with it 🧐

If you want to maximize steam output you would want to let your reactor cool down before adding more rods

[mild wadi]

yeah, then I can do 1 uranium and 1 thorium reactor, and just make the thorium run 1 at a time, or would I need 2 thorium each with 1 at a time?
I just want to have no reactors running more than one rod, since the questbooks specifically state that's worse for efficiency

[proud shale]

But that’s terrifically not useful

You got it wrong about the actual design

For thorium you don’t care about efficiency they aren’t your energy producers

If you can run 4 you should run 4 simply because it will allow you to run more uranium and therefore more plutonium

Which are your real energy producers

Also efficiency isn’t really important because when you become able to run let’s say 2 uranium’s rods

You are able to produce the rods infinitely

[mild wadi]

is it just the damage value tick as durability consumption for the rods?

the rate in which they're consumed

is it just the damage number, every tick?

against their durability?

[proud shale]

Yeah their damage values depends of the heat of the reactor

You can see the value ingame

And the durability is written on the tooltip

Then one day we may have double and quadruple cells but that’s not ingame yet anyway

But basically you should just have a large centrifuge making continuously heavy water

[mild wadi]

if I double temperature, do I double coolant consumption, and is coolant consumption and steam production directly tied?

[proud shale]

No

Temperature isn’t a linear formula

But coolant and hot coolant are tied

You can see the amount in Emi

If the formula was linear efficiency wouldn’t be a thing

[mild wadi]

hypothetically, if a uranium reactor and thorium reactor were running at the same temperature, would the uranium reactor consume 10x as much coolant?

[proud shale]

Okay I have to get back to work but i will give you the formula later when I have time to look for it

[mild wadi]

as the thorium recipe has a 2mb/t and the uranium has a 20mb/t

[proud shale]

But as I said if you think you need your understanding of the system isn’t right

[mild wadi]

fair enough, have a good day

[proud shale]

It depends of the initial temperature of the rod but yeah

Plus 100 because the reactor doesn’t start under this level

Except for the small fission reactor

[mental crescent]

yo can you make the speed at which the turbine processes the steam faster. in one recipe clears the entire hatch evven with iv hatchs and i cant keep up with the steam even with 4 turbines and with hss-s turbines idk iupgrading them to naq alloy would help

[mental crescent]

like can it be a per tick recipe

[proud shale]

I don't understand but you can use an ME Hatch

[mental crescent]

like the input hatch for the nuclear steam turbine is to small to process the steam for three seconds i was asking if it could be a per tick recipe like the cooling tower and heat exchanger

ig an ME hatch could work too

[proud shale]

that's not how it works

[mental crescent]

also on energy costs idk if you care but i saw you talking about in the pinned comment with the first three reactors running in parrellel (throium uranium plutinum) i get 4-6amps of luv and it only cost like two luv amps to run it

[proud shale]

yeah they are pretty op

especially the thorium one

plutonium one

[mental crescent]

i just mean that the nuclear turbines i have are getting throttled by the recipe being 3 seconds long instead of like a per tick recipe it would really help if were like per tick or smthing

cus the rest of the nuclear stuff is per tick

[proud shale]

it doesn't work that way

[mental crescent]

for steam and stuff

[mental crescent]

wait why

[proud shale]

Use two LuV hatches

Use a ME Hatch

Idk

[mental crescent]

does it let you use more than one

[proud shale]

I think yeah

[mental crescent]

can it not do subticking cus the recipe is in parrallel

[proud shale]

You know that subtick is parallel right?

[mental crescent]

yeah

i meant cus the turbine shows like running x1400 reccipe in parrallel

[sudden hound]

per tick doesn't work the way you think it works

[nimble sphinx]

https://bitbucket.org/Vazde/minecraft-fission/src/64ddf072f9358f1a2c75d473691a13e58b02edb3/mod/src/main/java/fi/dea/mc/deafission/core/ReactorCurve.java#lines-80
https://bitbucket.org/Vazde/minecraft-fission/src/master/mod/src/main/java/fi/dea/mc/deafission/api/ReactorMetrics.java
https://bitbucket.org/Vazde/minecraft-fission/src/master/mod/src/main/java/fi/dea/mc/deafission/compat/FissionGtPlaceholders.java (for central monitor)

[heady brook]

So, the max speed for the molybdenum silicon boron ingot rotor is 3 hours for every rotor?

I've made sure to use max heat for the heat battery

3 hours for every rotor for 1 linear accelerator is quite a lot of time

[nova basin]

Speed is 3 hours?

Or you mean durability

[heady brook]

Actually making the rotor

Cause we need 82 of the ingot to make 1 rotor

1 ingot needs 130 seconds to process

Yeah....

The worst part is, this is after I've maxed out the heat in the heat battery

If it's a regular one, you'd need 360s per ingot

So around 6 hours of processing for 1 rotor

[sleek chasm]

huh really

I've seen recipes in the ola get subticked

even the really long one like pa6

[sudden hound]

I think you might be the first person who's actually making them lol

[molten lark]

because there's no point in making crazy kinds of rotors for some 10% boost

[patent canyon]

make a rotor @ 2000°C need ~2.59h, a Np-237 rod have 13 rotors in a setup, but the rotor itself lasts ~33.5h so it even has a small gap with one ola

[proud shale]

2h59?

[proud shale]

for now

I'm redoing a bit the Fission balance around the OLA but that will mostly be important when Venus is getting work on

I don't have much will to work on something that is bypass when the player can just progress in IV

[molten lark]

good thing gt8 is tomorrow

[heady brook]

I just really want to completely finish ev. I have mostly finished seting up earth fission and I just need to have that rotor

I had such a fun time figuring out the recipe. Not a fun time waiting for the rotor to finish

[heady brook]

Not this one unfortunately

[proud shale]

I'm remaking the formula of the OLA

to be more align with what I want

but I may not push the full rebalance of the OLA before quite some time

[proud shale]

Thanks! I'm really happy you liked that complex line

there is looping going everywhere so I think it's a funny challenge to at first even understand it

Outside of the OLA duration do you have some kind of feedback on it?

[heady brook]

I only have a small suggestion. I wish the dirty molybdenum dust recipe align more with 82 of the molybdenum ingot.

[proud shale]

oh

Hmmm

[heady brook]

So, to make 1 rotor, we need 82 of the ingot

[proud shale]

not gonna lie that would be a lot to rebalance everything

when Venus is out you won't make only one, so I guess

I don't mind too much

All the exotic ingots will also get uses much later on so there is that

[heady brook]

as we can see here, for 82 of the ingot and 84 ingot require the same amount of dusts

but if you can make it so that 82 ingot and 83 ingot results in different amount of the dusts, it would be great

cause I had a big confusion about the looping due to that

[proud shale]

nah honestly that's a bit too much work

[heady brook]

but it's just a quality of life thing, so nothing important

[heady brook]

yeah

[proud shale]

I don't mind that EMI get confuse

[heady brook]

the only other feedback I can give is for you to include a website reccomendation to make the recipe graph tree

[proud shale]

it's one more challenge :p

[heady brook]

in the questbook

[proud shale]

yeah that's not a bad idea

[heady brook]

took me a while to find one cause all the others needs to have an account

[proud shale]

We are also thinking about adding a command to TFG bot to ask for graph

[heady brook]

ask for a graph?

so it automatically make the graph for you?

[proud shale]

like /diagram mo_si_be

it shares the picture let's say

[heady brook]

oooo

[proud shale]

someone still needs to make them

but then it's easy to have a repo of them accessible on discord

[heady brook]

that would be cool, but would defeat the purpose of figuring the recipe out

[proud shale]

yeah

[heady brook]

maybe you could mock the players for using it?

[proud shale]

You don't need to look at it though

[heady brook]

like make it available but call them weak or something

[proud shale]

there will always be people making them and sharing them anyway

do we want to make it official through discord

dunno

[heady brook]

yeah, making it official is will be great

there's something evil you can do

don't make a bot to find the diagram

just tell the players to join the discord channel to view it

[proud shale]

well there is a forum

but it's getting lost

that's why I would like to add it to the bot

[heady brook]

there is?

what forum?

ooo you mean the discord forum?

might be best to put the diagrams in a seperate category, like how you put screenshots in a seperate category on discord

[proud shale]

yeah but at the end of the day it would be the same as using a bot

[sudden hound]

one idea we had was to make ingame craftable paintings that show the diagram

the problem with it is keeping it updated lol

[proud shale]

yeah and it feels more like a nice feature for decoration ingame

rather that an actual diagram you would use though

[sudden hound]

I'm always a fan of information being ingame instead of on wikis or buried in a discord

[proud shale]

yeah but it's unpractical people would just take a screenshot

and open it outside of the game

the concept is cool though

[sudden hound]

yeah, even if it's just a hint instead of the full details

like only showing icons instead of any names or amounts

[proud shale]

It's funny also if you are at LV and you look at a IV diagram lol

[sudden hound]

so you still have to look through emi for the full details, but you get a sense of "this recipe has one huge loop" or "this has a bunch of small loops and lots of inputs" etc

lol yeah

[molten lark]

startech has a separate quest chapter for lines that show how to do them, could do that

[proud shale]

Not really a big fan of it though

[sudden hound]

part of the fun is figuring it out yourself, but digging through emi isn't the best either

[proud shale]

could be nice with this addon lol

[woven plinth]

100 uis

[mild wadi]

so I did a thing....

you probably should make it so breaking the reactor mid recipe has a penalty

or at least saves the heat

cause uhhh

formation and annihilation plane bullshit let me cook up something that made god ashamed.
I can run a plutonium rod without overheating it, on a reactor with no components

just

yeah

it's also good for power
not as good as a reactor that isn't demented

but uhhhh

yeah

this.
I did this

here's some of the monstrosity, redstone port measuring heat

both import busses are on active with signal

active formation plane in front of the controller, annihilation underneath

tbh, moving the controler to the center of the face would prevent this (I think)

so....
maybe... consider doing that?

lastly
I think there should be a bigger penalty to something stupid like, well, this

144mb is way too much for someone who fucked up this badly

like, if I can run 4 rods to get some IV circuits, then I have enough to make the actual graphite moderator cores

[molten lark]

there are people who just completely skip the OLA to get to IV earlier

[mild wadi]

such as me

and it's best to have the blue import bus to be on once per pulse

that way this abomination seems to not deadlock itself

I don't think this is intended tho

[proud shale]

Doesn't plutonium gives nothing

[mild wadi]

nope

from 3k to infinite, 144mb

[proud shale]

oh yeah

I think I didn't want to penalize that much the player

the issue with destroying the controller though

I would like if Vazde can change it

we will see

while I pester her to add a dimension locking lol

[mild wadi]

if I didn't know the devs better, I'd say keep it
but if you won't, then add sunglasses to the game

I'd be happy for this contribution

my clothes (head) slot needs something stupid to fill the slot

[molten lark]

are there really many people doing this? So far I've only seen one person

[mild wadi]

I did just put the abomination in the fission line feedback

so maybe more shall come?

and in case it wasn't clear, this idiocy still produces steam

[proud shale]

The issue is just that breaking the controller resets the temperature

over heating the reactor should still produce steam I don't see any issue with that

the thing though is that it's harder to exploit the reactor that just setting a normal thing lol

[mild wadi]

it really isn't tho

like

I can do this from the start

it's just some AE2 knowlege

I might know 0 redstone, or CC, or gt terminal, or many things
but I do know a bit of ae2

(somehow)

[proud shale]

Yeah but you could also just get some heavy water :p

[mild wadi]

it's mostly your call if something is done about this

[mild wadi]

oh, I did figure it out, but through measurements
code kept using a _state.Heat() I could not find, so I just did some empirical tests

[proud shale]

not really my choice as it's Vazde's mod

[molten lark]

produce PA6 or set down an annihilation plane...

the choice is clear

if you wanna skip everything to get to IV asap that is

[proud shale]

the thing is

right now I don't care much about the balance about end of EV simply because anything I do is instantly bypass by IV being easy as fuck

[molten lark]

fair nuf

[sudden hound]

yeah we have no frame of reference for what IV will be like yet

hard to balance around something that doesn't exist

[proud shale]

Because IV will start with you going to Venus to do any form of progress

the progression will be insanely much slower that what it is right now

and IV will also makes your martian infra mandatory

where right now you finish Mars and never visit again

maybe some wafer to upgrade

[molten lark]

don't forget redstone!

[mild wadi]

I mean, so long as the multiblock machines aren't locked that far into IV, I'm chill

but that's besides the fission line tbf

[sudden hound]

I'm a fan of hopping back and forth between doing a bunch of stuff on your main base and then going to a new planet

so I think having the IV multis in early IV makes a lotta sense

you got a big new source of power, time to put it to use etc

but also, venus will be available pretty early on in IV so you can go there first if you'd like instead

options!

[molten lark]

I still don't understand your intentions with mercury but I hope it will be something like that

[sudden hound]

tbh I don't understand my intentions with mercury either 😂

but it'll be later in IV I think

mostly a source of naq but also something else that'll be needed for late venus stuff I think?

[rare lava]

We had ideas at one point, but then all of space was put on hold

[sudden hound]

I remember the stuff about it being zero G with blocks you have to carefully manually mine at first

[molten lark]

you'd think that you'd have million ideas about what you want to do with your game

[proud shale]

we just forgot

it's been so long we are reworking the early game

[heady brook]

I wish Thorianate gives more thorium 230 cause I have no idea what to do with these thorium 232. That Twin Thorium Tower isn't including the thorium rods in the ME system

[proud shale]

Ahahah

Yeah I have plan to make use of them

[heady brook]

oh please do

It's filling up my ME system

[nimble sphinx]

Just don't do it. You are not meant to do it :s But this is not a competitive PvP game, so whatever floats your boat.

The code change to prevent that would be quite simple, but so far I still think that it's more useful for testing builds etc if the heat does reset.

Though in regards to the dimension locking I may have to implement that at some point.

[sudden hound]

yeah, people in chat have started figuring out that you can just send plutonium rods back to earth for their insane steam output lol

#💬│modern-chat-en message

[nimble sphinx]

I see. I put it on top of the imaginary backlog.

[mild wadi]

so, please help clarifying something, I'll never get past 910 degrees in the heat battery with just high pressure steam, and will cap out at 2k with boron coolant, or can I go past both values? Cause otherwise, I'd just install a single beryllium frame and never have to care about anything else
besides that, if I input twice as much heat in the OLA, will it run twice as fast? (to make the question clear, what's the change in speed based on temperature? A linear relationship?)

[proud shale]

Adding more frame will allow you store more HU

[proud shale]

the formula isn't linear at all but will be changed

with the IV update

[nimble sphinx]

See the code for the heat hatch for how it is now. But as Tom said, it will change, as heat scaling is too stronk at the moment.

[sudden hound]

were we waiting on tom to test anything, or is it just for vazde to implement some more of our requests like the heat algo, preventing controller break cheese, or dimension locking

or waiting on gtm8 before any of those?

[molten lark]

I do agree that it'd be good to fix this even if it's detrimental to testing. Resetting when a holder is broken would be fine.

[proud shale]

Vazde already said they don’t really want to fix the controller fix

And yeah mostly waiting GTm 8 for all the big changes as I told you

[sudden hound]

well now we've got multiple people completely cheesing it and then skipping the OLA entirely

I know "players are in charge of their own fun" but still

I don't think this would be that hard to fix

[molten lark]

it's a problem on servers too

[proud shale]

It’s not a problem on servers

It’s a problem for official lol

I will see with Vazde what we do when I’m back on fission

There is an update to the fission mod to make

And the port to GTm 8 anyway so

[nimble sphinx]

The cheese-fix is only one line of code. I guess I can fix it. But the heat changes are waiting for Tom's testing.