A vote on whether to ban AI in support channels

[woeful depot]

cgdisk /dev/sda
EF00
1gb
parttions
mkfs.fat -f32
mkfs.ext4
mount
mkdir
mount
pacstrip -k -something /mnt base base-devel linux-firmeware linux linux-headers bash bash-completion
arch-chroot /mnt
pacman -S mesa kde-plasma-meta networkmanager
systemctl enable NetworkManger
systemctl enable fstrim.timer
passwd root
bootctl install

(i don't remmeber how to create a user or setup systemd-boot fully)

[forest steeple]

pacstrip

[untold wharf]

Good now try it with Gentoo

[radiant token]

who wanna go to the pacstrip club

[hard imp]

so blind is almost as good as GPT

[forest steeple]

in the pacstripped club

[hallow sky]

useradd
passwd

[haughty hill]

internet connection

good luck pacstrapping without it

[sick temple]

that would oppress the will of the people

[sweet pulsar]

Fr I tried to get them to specify it better

[forest steeple]

lets assume they have ethernet

[haughty hill]

unless you can make a local repo blindly

[strange tundra]

Well, have a nice one guys, let's see how this all turns out. See ya!

[forest steeple]

no it wont!!!!

[hard imp]

you get all the "I told you so"

[weak sierra]

well this is the arch server so idk why we care about that

[haughty hill]

no ethernet driver then

[woeful depot]

pacman -U tons of files from saved cache pacman follder

[forest steeple]

because rn most of us voted for something we arent agreeing on 😭

[timber nacelle]

Right now the will of the people is that you figure out what we're actually supposed to be voting on

[forest steeple]

phrase your polls better

[manic reef]

you have @sweet pulsar questioning the wording of the poll, this is causing confusion

[haughty hill]

you never know with ancient hardware

[weak sierra]

brexit-ass decisionmaking skills

[scarlet jewel]

i need this thread to help me decide something important: goodfellas or the godfather

[untold wharf]

I was just being funny my buddy tried installing Gentoo with chatgpt and it went .... Very poorly

[manic reef]

in addition, this original thread was about banning AI slop, so anyone joining for the at:everyone will be confused about the context

[forest steeple]

artisto fucking focus

[manic reef]

because this thread is now about support responses

[sweet pulsar]

Check the message in the poll

[quaint crest]

Otherwise instead of banning AI use, when someone fuck up with AI it goes to a dedicated #ai-wall-of-shame server that show and explain the mistake so everyone to see it's not reliable tool for the job.

[sweet pulsar]

It literally says any context in support channel

[radiant token]

haven't seen either😔 sorry that I'm a zoomer

[manic reef]

yes, I understand. I'm agreeing with you

[hallow sky]

# iwctl
# ln -s /usr/lib/systemd/network/80-wifi-station.network.example /etc/systemd/network/80-wifi-station.network
# ln -s /usr/lib/systemd/network/89-ethernet.network.example /etc/systemd/network/89-ethernet.network
# systemctl enable --now systemd-networkd.service

[forest steeple]

"usage of LLMs......from support channels"

Which a lot of us understood as "using LLMs IN the support channels"

[haughty hill]

what if no driver for networking

[forest steeple]

if you used the llm outside of it, and then got fucked, imho you should still have the right to ask for help

[weak sierra]

so then that sounds like yes if you used AI in the process of breaking something you are not allowed to ask for help

[woeful depot]

It should definitely be banned from support, but remain accessible in the off-topic and urandom channels.

[magic path]

thing is: if a user breaks their system with chatgpt then asks for help, that's not ai usage since no AI was actually used in the channel

[hard elk]

Damn you tenor

[woeful depot]

If no driver exists for networking, the system will be unable to establish any network connections. You would need to manually locate or compile a compatible driver, or use offline installation methods.

[hard elk]

Eth

[scarlet jewel]

this is how I interpret the poll: the server should ban it the way Fedora bans AI for support

[crude vault]

I vote for keeping this thread on topic and redirect the ones derailing it

[timber nacelle]

I'm not convinced Hm7's reading isn't bad faith, but if a moderator can interpret that way I sure as hell dont trust the general public to not do so as well

[scarlet jewel]

use the Fedora interperation for implementing a ban

[forest steeple]

Alice tries to do something and asked chatgpt on how to do it, it then backfires and it breaks her system, she comes and says "chatgpt told me to this and that and im cooked".

Can Alice ask for support Yes or NO ?

@scarlet jewel we need a clear cut answer

[weak sierra]

that's great that's how you interpret it but that doesn't help us answer if that's actually what it means to everyone

[crude vault]

So far, that's how it's going

[forest steeple]

an apple isnt "blood-colored" its fucking red

[scarlet jewel]

i don't think she should be banned

[forest steeple]

you dont say "we ban like fedora"

[forest steeple]

are you blind or stupid on purpose ?

[woeful depot]

Alice may request support, but only if she clearly acknowledges that following AI instructions caused the issue. Otherwise, responsibility remains with the user.

[forest steeple]

can she ASK FOR SUPPORT

[haughty hill]

apple uses slave labour so close enough

[weak sierra]

are you speaking for the entire mod team?

[sweet pulsar]

I'm going off of what I've read in the HU channel

[forest steeple]

i need a Y/N god dang it

[west trench]

apple is communism coloured

[scarlet jewel]

i'm speaking indivdually, she should be allowed to ask for support

[forest steeple]

good

[timber nacelle]

Restart the poll and ask exactly this question, Fedora's guideline is imo perfect

[forest steeple]

do all the other mods agree?

[weak sierra]

it's at least unambiguous

[sweet pulsar]

Aristocrat in the HU said they should be forced to start from the beginning without AI assistance
Which is fair

[woeful depot]

Understood: You are suggesting that the server enforce a ban on AI in support, analogous to Fedora’s policy regarding AI assistance.

[forest steeple]

if they dont

THEN FUCKING AGREE AND COME BACK TO US JESUS CHRIST

[crude vault]

You have the fedora or debian take on this

[cyan yew]

i figured this was already what u guys were gonna do

[magic path]

An apple can be so many shades of red. Sometimes green, too. But you can still look at an apple and say it's red and be accurate, you know?

[hard imp]

is fucking red discernibly different than red?

[hard imp]

yellow too

and brown

[untold wharf]

You shouldn't use AI to get stuff going on your system unless you have some knowledge about how it works so you can know if it's giving you bad info. I'll occasionally use chatgpt to get a command that's eluding me or something. But I know enough about Linux and the command line that I can generally tell if it's giving me bad info. People just need to be smart about how they use tools. And not let chatgpt do.all their thinking for them.

I tend to Google first, ask LLMs second and ask for direct support in communities third and weigh my options. It's worked pretty well so far.

[manic reef]

the real poll should be "Should mods be able to at:everyone before they all agree on a topic" 🥺

[woeful depot]

Indeed, despite minor variations in hue, the perception of the apple as red remains accurate within general observation.

[fathom patio]

69, nice 😎

[hard elk]

Depends on if dbrand is making the color names or not

[dim fable]

Wait, banning usage for "Helping people" or are we also banning preople from trying to get help running an LLM locally on arch?

[versed gull]

did you write that sentence?

[crude vault]

Please stay on topic. Make another thread for this

[magic path]

The former

[woeful depot]

Acknowledged: The numeral 69 has been noted and humorously recognized.

[weak sierra]

here we go again...

[forest steeple]

another unrelated question

[dim fable]

Fine, Ill vote yes then

[manic reef]

brother I have been more on topic and contributed to the discussion more than your asinine "stay on topic" posts, please stay on topic

[cyan yew]

it doesn’t say they’ll ban anyone

[timber nacelle]

Actually yeah this reading isn't even bad faith, this is exactly the rule as written too

[forest steeple]

an LLM is still an LLM regardless of local or not

[hard imp]

Can a user post "Chat GPT said this..." to hallucinate check the LLM, under this proposal?

[timber nacelle]

Please for the love of God take down the poll

[weak sierra]

STOP THE COUNT

[cyan yew]

why?

[untold wharf]

But I also understand the temptation of users to ask LLMs for help. We have all seen people get ignored/toxic responses in support.

[hard imp]

Need a brooks brothers riot

[magic path]

no, because they would be better getting advice on the problem they're trying to solve using the LLM.

[weak sierra]

because nobody knows what they're fucking voting on

[cyan yew]

haha fair nuff

[woeful depot]

Question: Does the ban apply only to “helping people,” or also to users seeking guidance on running an LLM locally on Arch Linux?

[timber nacelle]

It's comically poorly written and the mods can't even agree what we're voting on

[weak sierra]

everyone's just kneejerking based on whether they think AI Good or AI Bad

[versed gull]

Close the poll and reword it

[forest steeple]

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[hard imp]

but asking the LLM first shows they are not just demanding support

[forest steeple]

yassine ur a good guy but please

[dim fable]

Wait I cant change my vote to yes? Maaan

[cyan yew]

they should have included that they aren’t gonna ban people

[forest steeple]

you can change your vote

[dim fable]

How? I am too stupid, I should ask AI

[hard imp]

and they probably do not know the rule when they arrive

[magic path]

I mean, you can make asking a person your first stop, that's allowed. We only really require you be polite and don't be a help vampire.

[forest steeple]

oh wait its bait isnt it....

[woeful depot]

I voted “No,” as the AI composes messages more effectively than I can.

[dim fable]

Oh my god i actually didnt realize theres a remove vote button 🤦‍♂️

[manic reef]

hmm... you voted Yes... curious... the AI will remember this

(I voted yes)

[magic path]

I think even if the question is worded poorly we already pinged everyone and we really shouldn't do it again

[forest steeple]

im lowkey close to changing it to no, just waiting on the official stance of the mod team

[hard imp]

but are we required to discuss their illegal use of LLM's ?

or can we just offer support

[forest steeple]

illegal use?....

[cyan yew]

nah i like being @‘d for the drama

[hard imp]

bannable

[manic reef]

love a good @ on a Sunday morning, brings everyone together. its kinda like church in here

[hard imp]

banned?

[manic reef]

we should do this every sunday

[dim fable]

True

[hard imp]

better than reading the news

[wide ledge]

Yes, this definitely feels like church

[hard elk]

Yeah

[gusty loom]

no, only ban it for certain contexts: example using llms to do something system related or for support

[scarlet jewel]

I am really confused more than anything why this thread needed to be linked when it was originally a thread dedicated to banning AI slop (aka banning AI in full) and a new thread could have been made to clarify what a AI support ban means.

The Fedora method simply bans posting advice from an LLM in a support thread. The Debian option goes further and instructs you to restart the entire process without the usage of AI if you admit at any point you are using AI since nobody can tell what part of the problem is being caused by AI. Neither of these mention banning users from a server and that should be clarified more than anything in a new thread. My two cents.

[cyan yew]

feels more like a gladiator match

[dim fable]

Time to take a shower, and come back to more hot takes

[fossil vine]

Would it be bannable if you said you TRIED an llm but it didn't work?

[magic path]

Basically, if they used it before asking, that's fine

[feral lotus]

Is the question to ban all messages composed by AI or any and all questions asking for help with AI or what's the goal here, it seems pretty ambiguous

[timber nacelle]

Both of these are more than acceptable solutions to the problem imo. I want the mod team to pick one then ask again instead of this poorly written poll and detailed discussion thread

[gusty loom]

i would use fedora mainly and let the user requesting support choose if they wanna restart

[gray gate]

Yeah I would be going for the Debian process

[hard imp]

so we have to ban if used after?

[manic reef]

no one knows and we're yelling at the mods to clarify in true Linux community fashion

[forest steeple]

wouldnt it be more useful to talk about it in these channels and then come back to us with more than 2 cents?

[cyan yew]

u guys should spam ping the mods

[weak sierra]

mods I spill my jice

[manic reef]

then I get banned and need to fork my own Arch Linux Community discord 🙁

[fossil vine]

Maybe they meant questions generated by ai AND people who make ai generated replies in support channels

[wide ledge]

Idk maybe we should require sources for support threads, like logs etc, before going forward so we stop wasting time on useless distro switching.

[cyan yew]

im sure theres already plenty

[hard imp]

I'll join

[hard imp]

but they are not theirs. stop your aggression

[forest steeple]

also the debian method only talks about "restarting the process" so i assume it means the install process of the distro.

So if you fuck up something else(lets say your network drivers) after 2 months of using the distro, because of an AI, are you required to reinstall entirely ? @scarlet jewel

[cyan yew]

my wha

[magic path]

You won't get instabanned here under any circumstances. But yeah, if they're asking for support and trying to get people to sanity check LLM output or go "well chatgpt said x about y" that's not allowed.

[forest steeple]

please please please, we LOVE yall personal opinions, i love hearing what Hm7 or locked or aristo thinks, but what we need now. is what the entire mod team will do

[scarlet jewel]

Reinstall of the distro or the software in question, yeah.

Depends on how fucked up something is.

[weak sierra]

I would want this to be a seperate vote

[warped igloo]

In support channels, LLMs shall be banned

[wide ledge]

Why ping everyone if they didn't want everyone opinion? Why make a global poll for everyone's opinion?

[magic path]

Is Debian particularly hard to unfuck

[forest steeple]

there are some issues that are more complicated than "reinstall"

reinstall x11 as much as you want, if its fucked its fucked

[manic reef]

If you admit to AI you have to record yourself installing LFS with no notes in under an hour

[fossil vine]

so just any MENTION of ai in general

[timber nacelle]

Computers in particular are hard to unfuck

[hard imp]

now I want to provide support just to tell this to noobs

[cyan yew]

any context in support channels it said

[timber nacelle]

On Linux it's possible, on windows it's "reinstall the entire os"

[scarlet jewel]

it's easy to maintain, and easy to break if you have no idea what you're doing

[magic path]

Arch enjoys a fairly quick reinstall process but there aren't that many situations where an arch install is completely FUBAR

[hard imp]

nonresponsive

[warped igloo]

Wait wait wait
What if the support question is
"Llama decided to stop working in my venv, how do I source again?"
Is asking for help regarding LLMs also banned

[hard imp]

define many

[forest steeple]

ssh lockin!!!

you are a mod god dang it x)

[weak sierra]

reset the counter. 0 minutes since someone asked what the poll is about

[timber nacelle]

The still is the shittiest nonanswer possible unless you intentionally want bad interpretations-
Like the one you JUST provided while I was typing

[manic reef]

punishment is you have to pick up trash next to your nearest roadway for 30 minutes

[timber nacelle]

Close. The. Poll. And. Thread.

[untold wharf]

Eh archinstall is borked on a regular basis.

[weak sierra]

my main question is, what problem are we attempting to solve here? is there a flood of "ai fucked my system" questions that's overwhelming all the other support posts? if not, then what? is it just because AI bad?

[magic path]

I would say like, 5%ish of problems are completely unrecoverable but it's also unprovable

[untold wharf]

Nature of the beast.

[crude vault]

You may like to pin this on an announcement channel as clarification

[warped igloo]

[forest steeple]

i think there are two issues.

Flood of "ai fucked my system" and "here is an ai generated fix for oyur problem"

[manic reef]

No Phoenix please this is the replacement I've been looking for for religion my entire life, we need more sunday morning @ pings

[forest steeple]

most of us voted to ban the 2nd one

but apparently the first one is also included

[magic path]

That's true but you're also 5 steps from the start line so it's easy to just reset

[forest steeple]

which is odd because arguably debugging ai issues is easier, considering you have the chatlogs

[timber nacelle]

I'm putting my money back guarantee on this thread being completely fucking useless until the mods know what they're asking and every two seconds a new mod is realizing they don't know what they're asking

[gray gate]

I personally oppose a total AI ban

My stance is we should have a Debian server approach to AI in support threads, where if you've just mindlessly used AI you will be expected to restart from scratch

I think a total ban is unenforceable

[forest steeple]

but human error ? "i did something but i forgor"

[warped igloo]

But what if the support question is
How do I fix my AI?

[woeful depot]

Using AI is both amazing and terrible at the same time. Help — I can’t stop using it, and I have a serious AI problem.

[weak sierra]

this doesn't actually work as clarification though. people are asking "what about this", and "in any context" does not clarify that

[magic path]

Nobody is talking about a total ban

[forest steeple]

yassine please lock in

[untold wharf]

Yeah. Alternatively the arch calam installer exists.

[hard imp]

Look, we can make a "Church" channel and do this there?

[fickle locust]

Man, fuck ai

[magic path]

I think that's beyond the scope of the support we provide here tbh

[hard imp]

typical use case

[tall thorn]

ai can sydbank

[magic path]

even if this topic wsnt in contention

[crude vault]

Ping aristocat not me

[hard imp]

nonresponse. can we help the person or not?

[manic reef]

@m0ds please - every sunday we post an ambiguous tech topic and people fight over it

[cyan yew]

[manic reef]

next poll "Is ZFS good?"

[woeful depot]

Acknowledged. Proceeding to lock in as requested.

[forest steeple]

ZFS isnt good for health, if you eat a hard drive with zfs in it, you are gonna die

[untold wharf]

Lmfao should we ban btrfs

[hard imp]

AI said i need ZFS

[warped igloo]

We already have 6 mods in this thread lmao

[forest steeple]

this is what this channel sounds like btw

[magic path]

Fucking, idk? It's a nonstarter, it shouldn't get posted here anyways

[forest steeple]

i mean if the issue is with the llama arch package or whatnot, its fair to ask here

if its a llama issue...go to the llama support groups

[hard imp]

Church Channel Please

[forest steeple]

why are we even having these sideconversations dwag

[tall thorn]

I think the AI ban should be based on support given generated by AI, if it's human provided then it should be okay

[magic path]

In the same way you dont ask for help with osdev or make a support post for sewing a particular stitch

[cyan yew]

idk i like reading the yap tho, it stimulates me while i work

[forest steeple]

thats what most of us thought too

[warped igloo]

Because banning LLMs in support channels in all context means also not getting or giving people help regarding LLMs

This is frying my brain

[errant wharf]

I've solved almost every linux related issue I've had by using ai to google shit. But I also know a fair bit about computers. If people don't know as much and just take ai verbatim and don't just use it as a tool that's obviously when it becomes bad

[cyan yew]

based honestly

[forest steeple]

so we cant help someone who broke their install because of AI?

[magic path]

Operative word usage.

[indigo vault]

ban ai

[warped igloo]

Idk

[forest steeple]

AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW????

[weak sierra]

AAAAAAAAA

[forest steeple]

MY BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU ARE THE MODS

[tall thorn]

why don't we just change the ban to ai generated support only

[weak sierra]

WHAT ARE WE VOTING ONNNNNN NOBODY KNOWS NOT EVEN THE PEOPLE RUNNING TH EPOLL

[tall thorn]

I'm pretty sure most people voted for that

[hard imp]

Mods aren't Gods

[sick temple]

Need to clarify what is exactly going on with this poll right now, since this thread is devolving into anarchy:

• We are not banning users from the server for using AI, either in support or general.
• The consensus seems to be heavily towards restricting AI usage in support channels at a minimum.
• We will do a second poll based on the best way to approach it going forward, taking inspiration from how Fedora and Debian handle AI restrictions.

I take the responsibility for the wording of the original poll and using this thread instead of making one with a clear outline of what our thought process was, and can see how this was confusing for some.