next-move-discussion

[river prawn]

I don’t understand Ne2

[tender grove]

but why not play c4 first

idk

[river prawn]

In one game, white played Ne2 Ngf6 g3

Like what

And white won that game

[tender grove]

thats really funny for some reason

anyway doesnt matter Ne2 isnt being played

[river prawn]

1.e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 e6 8. O-O Qc7 9. Ne2 Ngf6 10. g3 Bd6 11. c4 e5 12. Bxg6 hxg6 13. Nc3 O-O 14. c5 Be7 15. Nxe5 Nxe5 16. Bf4 Nfd7 17. Re1 f6 18. dxe5 fxe5 19. Qg4 Bxc5 20. Be3 Bxe3 21. Rxe3 Nb6 22. Qxg6 Rf6 23. Qc2 Raf8 24. Ne4 Rg6 25. Rae1 Nd5 26. Nc5 Rgf6 27. R3e2 Qc8 28. Qe4 Qh3 29. Nd3 Rf5 30. Nxe5 Rxe5 31. Qxe5 1-0

What is 30..Rxe5 😭

And that’s not even the only time Ne2 was played

[tender grove]

wow not even Bd6

[vagrant pelican]

Can we focus on 8… Ngf6 as that’s the most likely move played by black?

[river prawn]

Yeah

What is our plan

[vagrant pelican]

And our polls are quite split on it

[river prawn]

Because we don’t have a plan

[tender grove]

yeah tbh my anti caro planning is garbage

[river prawn]

This is an anti-Caro

It’s an anti-fun Caro

💀

[vagrant pelican]

Coach Dane recommends b3. Is that to support c4 and put the bishop on Bb2 eventually?

[river prawn]

Yes, and also so Qb6 does nothing

[vagrant pelican]

I didn’t read his post fully

[river prawn]

The problem is Coach Dane is citing a game where black played an unusual Qa5!? which no one else has done since

We are far more likely to see an eventual Qc7

Found a game

1.e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 Ngf6 8. Bxg6 hxg6 9. O-O e6 10. c4 Be7 11. b3 O-O 12. Bb2 Qc7 13. Re1 Rfe8 14. Qc2 c5 15. dxc5 Nxc5 16. Be5 Qa5 17. Bc3 Qc7 18. Rad1 a6 19. Be5 Qc6 20. h3 Rad8 21. Bc3 Rxd1 22. Rxd1 Ncd7 23. Nf1 b5 24. N1d2 1/2-1/2

[outer lance]

As I think at least one discord member has mentioned, if Black castles O-O, would playing Bxg6 be worth considering then ?

See below for one possible line we could aim for from the database I am using (lichess, Master games):

... 7.Bd3 e6 8.O-O Ngf6 9.b3 Be7 10.Bb2 O-O 11.c4 Qc7 12.Bxg6 hxg6 13.Qe2 ...

. It is not necessarily the move/series of moves I would want to play, just trying to see if there is sound reasoning to play Bxg6 then, instead of closer to now / before Black castles.

[river prawn]

I was thinking Qc2 rather than Qe2, but both work

We’ll need to play Rad1 and Rfe1 at some point too

The important point is getting the queen off d1 because black is putting a rook on d8 and then pushing c5 to open the d-file

Classic c5 pawn break

Since Bb2 shuts down the e5 pawn break

[vagrant pelican]

That’s okay. But need the plan with b3

[river prawn]

b3-Bb2-Bxg6-c4-Qc2-Rad1-Rfe1 in some order

The order might matter

we need to play Bxg6 before Qc2 but after black castles kingside

We need to be ready for the c5 pawn break

Because GothamChess will play it sooner or later

That’s what you do in the Caro-Kann

We can always play dxc5, but if we position our pieces right, we might be able to play d5

That will make the game interesting

It’s gonna be funny when 9.Bxg6 wins, everyone freaks out, and then GothamChess plays 9..hxg6 10.Re1 Be7 11.c4 0-0

Because I know GothamChess knows that castling queenside is a bad idea against optimal play

Looks like someone got hacked

Ping mods

That was fast

Anyway

GothamChess is not going to castle queenside because he has honor

Because he thinks that we will play well

He won’t play deliberately suboptimally

Actually, that’s an interesting question

Poll in #theworld-general

[vagrant pelican]

He’s playing very standard caro kann moves. He’s going for a solid game. He won’t make a sub optimal move

[river prawn]

What other openings does he play that he chose not to?

I mean we are playing a very solid variation

Much more positional than most Caro-Kann variations

[vagrant pelican]

That idk

Let’s talk b3 vs Re1 - our current leader in polls

[river prawn]

I just don’t think b3 can win against all the other moves

It’s weird to low Elo players

It’s not standard development

9.c4 and 9.Re1 are much easier for low Elo players to understand

[vagrant pelican]

Right. That’s true

[vagrant pelican]

Let’s use the term The World

[river prawn]

No, because it’s not “The World”, it’s a subset of players

We need to unite behind a move that has good winning chances in order to stop 9.Bxg6

Because as we saw this time with 8.Bxg6 getting around 15% of the vote, many people will vote 9.Bxg6, likely around 20%. We need a move that can beat that vote percentage

[river prawn]

That 20% figure is a combination of almost all of the 8.Bxg6 voters and some of the 8.0-0 voters

[river prawn]

And it looks like the answer is yes

[cerulean path]

I'm not the best player, right now I'm 1000. But why whats wrong with the ke5 move? I do like e3 because it saves a lot of drama, but the knight move looks like it has the most potential.

[tender grove]

wow super duper omega bongcloud

I assume you mean Ne5?

in what position

in some positions (including the current one I believe, too lazy to look) black can play …Nxe5 dxe5 Qa5+ winning the pawn on e5

[cerulean path]

Ok, where is that check though?

I'm being a little confusing

I'm assuming we kingside castled

[tender grove]

that hasnt happened yet

[cerulean path]

I don't see a poll for it anymore

[tender grove]

this is the current position, castling is winning by quite a bit so it'll probably happen

[cerulean path]

what do you think is the best move after castling?

I think B3 and re1 are generally good

[tender grove]

Re1 c4 and b3 are all good responses to most of his moves

[cerulean path]

what's the plan behind C4?

it seems to just weaken d4

[tender grove]

do you need justification for taking center space

[river prawn]

This position is one of those

[river prawn]

We already have the queen and the knight defending d4, we’re fine

[river prawn]

Bf4 is fine too, and Bxg6 isn’t even bad either

[cerulean path]

bf4 looks very nice in most positions

Are we trying to do a queen side or a king side attack

[river prawn]

Neither

[cerulean path]

unless we do a fancy trade in the middle, we're probably going to march our pawns?

[river prawn]

This is not one of those types of positions

We don’t go for a middlegame attack

Unless black castles queenside, which is very unlikely

If black castles queenside, we pawn storm and our attack gets there first

And I know GothamChess knows that, which is why GothamChess won’t castle queenside

[cerulean path]

the main benefit of BF4 is we protect against any queen and Bishop attacks, and we potentially have a stronger attack on the queen side

[river prawn]

Now, I don’t think we could coordinate a proper queenside attack, but GothamChess doesn’t know that

[tender grove]

is there a reason we aren’t calling him levy

[river prawn]

I call him both

See my previous messages

Whichever I feel like at that moment

[tender grove]

lol

[cerulean path]

Do we think we have a better chance doing fancy math or a balanced endgame?

[tender grove]

im sure we could come up with some Rb1 meme and toss the b pawn at him

[river prawn]

That’s one of many ideas that works, that’s how bad castling queenside is

The fact that there are multiple ideas that work shows how bad it is

[cerulean path]

I feel like he could shut down a queen side attack

[river prawn]

Nope, doesn’t work

[tender grove]

going long in this position with a c6 hook and no pawns of his own to launch of his own would be insane

[river prawn]

Especially when we play Bxg6

I was arguing with someone who said Bxg6 was bad because of 0-0-0 and kingside attack

Like no

That doesn’t work

The c6 hook ruins black’s king safety

And I know GothamChess Levy knows that

[cerulean path]

What does that accomplish?

[river prawn]

What do you mean by “that”

[cerulean path]

if he trades with us, we get our queen out, there's no real advantage to trading with him

[river prawn]

Right

But there’s no disadvantage to Bxg6 either

[cerulean path]

I think we should try to make it as complicated as possible

I feel like he beats us in a equal endgame

[river prawn]

That’s hard to do in this kind of position

The reason why Bxg6 is fine is because we’re going to play it eventually once black castles kingside, but if we play it now, black will still castle kingside

[cerulean path]

True, but does it also help us with any queen side attacks?

[river prawn]

We only attack on the queenside if black castles queenside

Else there’s no point

When black castles kingside, we develop normally

Put the bishop on f4, queen on c2 or e2, and rooks on d1 and e1

Or c1 and d1

[cerulean path]

if the queenside is most likely not going to be involved then we should do b3, Bb2

[river prawn]

No

b3 Bb2 is not about attacking the queenside

b3 Bb2 is about controlling the center

Especially after black plays c5 and we play dxc5

[pearl rover]

Has anyone checked 8...Bd6 9.b3 extensively? At first glance we can control e5 tactically, but I haven’t worked through all the lines in depth.

[outer lance]

I don't think we should play 9. b3 against 8. Bd6, as there seem to be better looking moves in the database.

Here are just two lines of many in the database, below:

Line 1: ... 8.O-O Bd6 9.Re1 Ngf6 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.Bxf5 O-O 12.Bh3 Re8 13.c3 Qc7 14.g3

or

Line 2: ... 8.O-O Bd6 9.Bxg6 hxg6 10.Re1 Ngf6 11.Bg5 Qc7 12.c4 O-O 13.c5 Bxg3 14.hxg3

. Against 8. Bd6, I would be very impressed if the World manages to play the first line as far as possible, but I think we will more likely play something that looks closer to the second one.

. The 9. Bxg6 line is not a mistake or worse IMO, even though I think our coach is advising against it and calling it an "anti candidate move", at least for the near future.

. Copy and past this > from: fischwitsch < into the search box, if you want to read the Coaches' posts / suggestions.

[vagrant pelican]

Currently c4 is the leader in our polls

Against both the bishop moves - Bd6 and Be7 — c4 is our poll leader. What’s the plan after that? To go b3 and Bb2?

[outer lance]

If we play 9. c4 against those two moves, then I would probably want to try and play something like these lines from the database:

Against 8. Bd6: ... 8.O-O Bd6 9.c4 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Ngf6 11.b3 O-O 12.Bb2 ...

Against 8. Be7: ... 8.O-O Be7 9.c4 Ngf6 10.Bf4 O-O 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.Qe2 Re8 13.Rfd1 Qb6 14.Rab1 a5 15.Ne4 Nxe4 16.Qxe4 ...

. 8. Be7 is unlikely to be played, even though it is not bad or losing for Black, IMO.
. See below, for the historical data from the lichess Masters database I am using:

Ngf6 = 249
Bd6 = 8
Qc7 = 8
Bxd3 = 2
and
Be7 = 1 game.

Update: My discord is "auto-correcting" the numbers just above, so I decided to delete said numbers.
All of them are for move 8. by Black.

[pearl rover]

Which database are you using?

[slow breach]

Great question, dameen-olive ! Yes, once Black has castled and we're ready to play Qc2, capturing on g6 is a good idea because we are capturing with a concrete reason (Black's rook no longer enjoys the open h-file since Black has castled and we don't lose time with Qc2, and then Qxd3 if Black trades bishops)

[slow breach]

Yes, please check out the Anand - Topalov game. b3 prepares Bb2 as well as an eventual c2-c4 🙂

[vagrant pelican]

thank you. Yes, i went back and checked it out

Initial draft of recommendations based on the polling. Would need help with explanation for c4————

If GothamChess plays 8...Ngf6, or 8… Qc7, we play 9. Re1, centralizing our rook and increasing our control of the e5 square.

If GothamChess plays 8...Bd6, or 8… Be7, we play 9. c4, taking more space at the queen side.

Please do NOT play 9. Bxg6 👎 👎 , committing one of the mistakes highlighted by Coach Dane: trading without a useful purpose. Bxg6 👎 👎 continues to be an anti-candidate move

[slow breach]

Thanks for the update. I will mention in the game chat the idea of 9. b3 as consistent messaging with what I previously discussed, but am happy to advocate a single move if we have a clear consensus. For example, after 8...Bd6 or 8...Be7, is there any reason we shouldn't suggest 9. Re1? If we can come up with a clear set of moves that basically fits with the overall scheme of development, I think this will be easier to understand and unite around as a team.

[river prawn]

I wouldn’t be too worried about 8..Bd6, but 8..Ngf6 9..Bd6 10..Qc7 is a possible setup

[river prawn]

I think the most likely moves to win are 9.Re1 and 9.c4, although a lot of people have suggested 9.Bf4

9.b3 is not feasible in a vote chess game

[compact gale]

Has anyone noticed that after 8 OO Ngf6 9 Re1 <Bd6,Qc7> that we have the resource 10 Nf5 ?

But 9 .. Be7 does avoid that.

[slow breach]

Thanks for your contributions, Lily. Just a reminder to feel free to share your singular opinion and perspective, but please avoid sweeping statements like "9. b3 is not feasible in a vote chess game." We are discussing ideas and you may not think that is the best direction or most likely to succeed, but 9. b3, like any other move, can be suggested and supported.

[slow breach]

Well spotted, David! 🙂

[humble horizon]

can someone bring me up to speed on the options for move 9? I've tried to read as the day goes on but really struggled to know what the options are and why

[river prawn]

no way GothamChess allows that

[river prawn]

I believe there are certain moves that are too unusual to gather enough support to win, and 9.b3 is one of them. Look at how we couldn’t get 6.h4 or 7.h4 to win even though everyone in the chat strongly supported them. In order for a move to win, it has to seem reasonable, and 9.b3 is too confusing for most players under 1000.

We don’t really control the direction of this game. We can influence a close vote, like on move 5, but other than that, our suggestions will have no impact until the players that don’t read the chat get bored and stop voting.

[slow breach]

"I believe" - well worded! 9. b3 "is too confusing for most players under 1000" is quite an assumption and typical declarative statement I'm seeing that we're trying to avoid. Feel free to add "I think 9. b3 is too confusing" and your singular opinion will be well received and we can welcome to hear from other voices as well. We just want to make sure we are not clouding the chat with opinions that are delivered in a declarative fashion - let's make sure we continue to share our singular opinions and engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue. Thanks! 🙂

[river prawn]

I understand 9.b3, I just believe based on the votes so far that it cannot get enough votes to win because I believe a significant number of people do not understand the purpose of 9.b3.

[slow breach]

Great! Really appreciate you sharing your singular opinion here and keeping space for other voices to also share their opinions. 🙂

[river prawn]

Here's the question. What should we do if there are two moves that are leading, 9.Bxg6 and some other move?

like for example if it's close between 9.Re1 and 9.Bxg6

[compact gale]

We do need to publish our initial recommendations now

[river prawn]

what are our recommendations?

[compact gale]

We cannot recommend b3 in this initial version since it is not a poll leader at the present time

[river prawn]

the main recommendation is 8..Ngf6 9.Re1

[compact gale]

Recommendations for our Move 9 responses to GothamChess's expected replies to 8 O-O from discussion and polling on Chess.com's Official discussion forum:

If GothamChess plays 8...Ngf6, or 8… Qc7, we play 9. Re1, centralizing our rook and increasing our control of the e5 square.

If GothamChess plays 8...Bd6, or 8… Be7, we play 9. c4, contesting d5 and preventing GothamChess knights from occupying it.

Please do NOT play 9. Bxg6 (yet), committing one of the mistakes highlighted by Coach Dane: trading without a useful purpose. Bxg6 continues to be an anti-candidate move

You can join the Official Chess.com discussion forum to help discuss and analyze the game, vote in polls to select the best moves for The World Team, and promote them in the GothamChess game team chat!

Link: https://go.chess.com/PlayGothamDiscord

[river prawn]

I actually recommended b3 a while ago

several moves ago, before we even played 7.Bd3

It's not a perfect plan, but i was suggesting it very early

[slow breach]

Thanks David! Quick question - is there any reason 9. Re1 shouldn't be played against 8...Bd6 or 8...Be7? If there isn't a concrete reason, there may be an argument to recommend 9. Re1 as a more "universal move" rather than trying to keep Re1 and c4 in the air simultaneeously?

[compact gale]

A later recommendation could still be b3. But it has to win a poll.

[river prawn]

I agree. We should be consistent

and 8..Ngf6 is the main move

so the result of that poll should be what we pick for the other responses

[compact gale]

Polls are open for 6h, and you can change your vote

[river prawn]

not that it really matters because anything other than 8..Ngf6 is very rare

[compact gale]

The other responses were also polled and have leaders at this time : either c4 or Re1

[slow breach]

I am going to personally mention 9. b3 against 9...Ngf6 for consideration and share the concept of "fianchetto" with the group since I already mentioned this was a direction I personally favored. I will also mention a universal "Re1" if that is what the team would prefer to play. I'm just not sure if there is any concrete reason why we would not recommend Re1 against 8...Be7 or 8...Bd6, which is why I ask for clarification.

[river prawn]

it's just if we recommend c4 for some moves and Re1 for other moves without a good reason, we look like we don't know what we're doing

[slow breach]

OK, so basically Re1 just happened to not be the top polled move vs ...Bd6 or ...Be7, but it was the top choice against 8...Ngf6? There wasn't a concrete reason for us to avoid Re1 against the bishop moves?

[compact gale]

A later edition of our recommendation can have b3 if it wins, so consider @slow breach

[river prawn]

we can still play b3 later

this isn't like h4

[compact gale]

It was not concrete, however, c4 does have a justification in

f GothamChess plays 8...Bd6, or 8… Be7, we play 9. c4, contesting d5 and preventing GothamChess knights from occupying it.

[river prawn]

Okay, but isn’t that counterintuitive since we’re most worried about Nd5 if 8..Ngf6

Like black can’t play 9..Nd5 if 8..Be7 or 8..Bd6

[pearl rover]

The reason we want to prevent ...Nd5 is so we can play Bf4, right?

[river prawn]

That’s one of the reasons

[compact gale]

Yes, that too

[river prawn]

Although c4 is also just generally good

[compact gale]

should I change the message to say that?

[river prawn]

I think we should pick either Re1 or c4 for all moves

We need to be consistent

But more importantly, we need to be anti-Bxg6

Because that will be the move to beat

So I don’t think we should recommend a move at this time

We should wait and see which move has the best chance of beating Bxg6

[compact gale]

Can't change our initial recommendation that will be published in 5 minutes. All changes have to win polls

[river prawn]

Fine

Look

Either Re1 or c4 is good

We can play one now and the other later

It doesn’t really matter which we play first

[compact gale]

I currently have this excerpt

If GothamChess plays 8...Bd6, or 8… Be7, we play 9. c4, contesting d5 and preventing GothamChess knights from occupying it, and enabling us to play Bf4 safely.

Please do NOT play 9. Bxg6 (yet), committing one of the mistakes highlighted by Coach Dane: trading without a useful purpose. Bxg6  continues to be an anti-candidate move

[river prawn]

It works

Because GothamChess won’t play 8..Bd6 or 8..Be7

So it doesn’t really matter what we suggest

[compact gale]

OK, for better or worse, I have posted. I did change the top to say Initial Recommendations

Which means we can still change things.

for later editions

of our move 9 recommendations

[slow breach]

Thanks, David! 🙂

[wraith ravine]

So b3 is off the table then?

[slow breach]

Not at all. I'm going to recommend 9. b3 to support my previous commentary and also mention the utility of 9. Re1 ideas 🙂

[compact gale]

We are publishing now, because in 17 minutes it will be GothamChess's move. If he moves quickly, as he has been lately, we will at least have these recommendations when it becomes our move again.

[pearl rover]

Do people who vote in the polls actually read the next-move discussion or Coach Dane’s recommendations?

[compact gale]

It is certainly not off the table, it is just not in our initial recommendatons. Our move 9 polls are still open.

[river prawn]

How long did he take to move last time?

[compact gale]

We are talking about our Discord polls, right? I certainly hope so. Actually very few of us are actually voting.

[pearl rover]

I wish they would share their thoughts.

[compact gale]

I am adding

If GothamChess plays 8 .. Bxd3, we play Qxd3. Not the the anti-positional cxd3??

We didn't poll that b/c it was too obvious. Never underestimate that there are voters who need that guidance. Last time, we should have warned people to not play 8 Ne5 ..

[river prawn]

I think we should do that again

[river prawn]

There’s just one problem with this

We can’t play Bf4 if Bd6

[compact gale]

Ouch, corrected!

removed that statement, can fix it better on the other side of the archiving that is coming in 1 minute

[river prawn]

0-0 has been played

[compact gale]

we are in the archiving period where team chat is not available

[river prawn]

Ok

[compact gale]

I am waiting to repost after team chat is available again

It is really annoying that it archives immediately after our turn ends and his turn begins! Grrrrrrr!

[river prawn]

We can wait

[compact gale]

small edits from after the archive

[river prawn]

I just realized better rationalizations for why we play 9.c4 against 8..Bd6 or 8..Be7

Right now, Bf4 is fine because we can respond to Nd5 with Bg5, but if Be7, then that doesn’t work, so we should respond to Be7 with c4

And with 8..Bd6, the idea is 9..Qc7 and a kingside attack, but 9.c4 allows us to break up that battery with c5 at a later point

[thorn yarrow]

It's quiet here. if 8 ... Ngf6 I am liking 9. b3 following Anand - Topalov 2008 game. I have looked at the lichess database and noted that players with a rating < 1600 order of preference in moves in this position are ( 24% Bg5, Re1, then 17% c3, 10% c4, 7% Bxg6, 6% Bf4, 5% Ne5, 2% Be3 and finally 1% b3 ) from 1800-2200 the move preference is ( Re1, c3, Bg5, c4, Bf4, Bxg6, b3, ...) and for the master games: ( Re1, c4, Bxg6 , b3). I like 9.b3 because: 1) of the players ( Anand 2798 versus Topolov 2777) makes for a good baseline with no obvious errors. 2) the move broadens White's space advantage on the queen side ( i.e. 9. b3 Be7 10. Bb2 Qa5 ( It will be interesting to see what GothamChess plays here. the database has 72% 13 0-0 with WDL 31/46/23) 11.c4 0-0 12. Bxg6 hg looks like an equal position. I have been looking over a variety of GM games ... very positional and drawish. But convincing the 9. b3 move may be difficult. The percentage of games master level: ( 41% Re1, 19% c4, 15% Bxg6, 12% b3) all seem fine. I am sure there are blunders in there just waiting to be made!

[outer lance]

lichess masters database

[thorn yarrow]

I used Lichess Player for under 2400 and Masters for Masters

I have also been looking at games in the chesstempo database

[proud pecan]

poor Gotham going against a plethora of studied databases haha

[fair sorrel]

Please read the chat message that you sent out. You are suggesting white to play 9.Re1 only if black plays 8....Nf6 or Qc7 and only play 9.c4 if black plays 8...Bd6 or 8...Be7. But did you not mean for white to play 9.c4 to keep blacks knight from the center square d5?

anyone here?

[inner iron]

I'm here.

always watchingggg.... alllllwayssss watchingggg... lol j/k

[fair sorrel]

I was going to play 9.Re1 if 8...Qc7 or 8...Be7 or 8...Bd6 and 9.c4 if 8...Nf6

So please edit the chat message that Discord has put out.

[compact gale]

@fair sorrel We followed our internal polls, which you can now see. #next-move-polls

The polls were up for 24 hours and have closed.

[vagrant pelican]

I would encourage everyone to keep looking at our polling results when the polls are open and discuss here if you’d like people to change their votes

[wanton bobcat]

It'd be rly helpful if we'd get a ss of the position below each poll

But ik its a bit tedious for admin, but still had to put it forward

[inner iron]

That could get very time consuming and would cause a lot more scrolling for each and every poll... These polls are all based on the current move or current candidate moves from a specific position. Rather than post images of every possible candidate move and images of our possible candidate moves based on his candidate moves, i think it would be easier to just open up an analysis of the current position on chess.com and then make the candidate moves on that analysis board. You can scroll forward and back after each candidate move is analyzed or looked at. (You can do this by going to the chess.com website, and looking at the current vote chess move. Then, click on the little magnifying glass button to the right, and then sightly to the right of the move list there is a opening moves icon and a compass... (explorer). Click on that explorer button and it will show you your current position.) Then you can make moves, back up, etc. Hope this helps.
Also, in an instance where we might need to compare two different positions afterwards or a number of moves are being made and compared, screenshots can always be taken and compared in the next move discussion so that the poll section doesn't end up getting cluttered etc.

[barren hatch]

Why is he playing Ngf6? I know the vote was for Re1 but is that actually productive? I mean what is the plan behind Ngf6? Is it to castle?

[empty idol]

Our move again

[inner iron]

Re1 activates the rook and increases the control of the e5 square. He played Ngf6 and it's the most played move in the master games over the other moves. Rgf6 develops his Knight getting it off of his opening square and most likely he'll move the bishop on f8 next. Most Caro-Kann players tend to castle kingside... So pretty sure he's preparing to castle.

[empty idol]

h4 doesn’t have the same threat now…I think. I missed a move I won’t lie

[inner iron]

Yes, the h4 ship has sailed, since we castled Kingside.

[barren hatch]

Of course, those in the vote want to play a completely worthless pin that simply loses time. Like what is the threat of that? It's not like there is any plan to take and it is easily parried with h6 that simply improves black's position, Bg5 just helps black.

[proud pecan]

C4 to get ready for that bishop

[faint gorge]

Bg5 ohhh... Interesting

Top 1 vote rn

[proud pecan]

Actually I think I like Bf4

[faint gorge]

I voted Bf4 too

Hey, maybe after Bg5 Be7 by levy to remove the pin, Re1 will be played

We developed our bishops knights and ppl may develop rooks and into the middle game

[tender grove]

I thought we were trying to put our bishop on b2

also I assumed black was happy after playing Nd5 but I guess maybe not necessarily I haven’t properly looked

eh I don’t see a good reason to give him that tempo

[pearl rover]

He wants to reach his ideal (slave) setup to prepare pawn breaks on the c- or e-file. As White, we’re trying to disrupt that.

We’re in a quiet position now, so it’s more about what will happen in 10–30 moves than about finding the next best move. You won’t get any smarter by checking the opening explorer.

[proud pecan]

so bg5 is pointless cos the queen is moving anyways

[barren hatch]

Well, with Bg5 he's going to get something slightly better as we are basically allowing him to get a free tempo to play h6 and prevent a back rank and creating a nook for the bishop. Like I know it does us no good and complain about moves that have already been played, but honestly at this point it's become black playing white, I mean we have lost any and all forward momentum in the position. Or at least, that seems to be the case, we have no real threats we can leverage, all we can do is sit down and hope to survive black's attack.

[pearl rover]

Yup. Also, the reason this position is likely to end in a draw is that it will lead to a rook-and-knight endgame with a nearly symmetric pawn structure. So we don’t want to exchange our bishops too easily.

[barren hatch]

One idea is actually Ne5, forcing him to trade knights then we retake with the pawn, gaining control of the f6 and d6 square.

[pearl rover]

Why would he trade the knights? He can finish development and push his c-pawn.

[barren hatch]

Yeah, problem is the Bg5 move loses too much tempo. Like if we could play it now, it's basically forcing him to take the knight, otherwise we can grab his bishop. He could in theory play Bxd3 but that only helps us as we want a bishop trade and we have a beautiful knight sitting on an outpost and if he ever takes it then it is dxe5, which can become even stronger with Re1. However, I think the best move is to trade knights and then we have him squeezed in with an annoying pawn that prevents him from developing his knight and bishop to their ideal squares.

[pearl rover]

Actually, the idea behind Re1 is to pin the pawn to the king so we are able to play Nf5, which forces Black to play Be7. If you put the knight there first, you can’t pin the pawn.

Anyhow, Bg5 is leading the polls...

[compact gale]

9 Bg5 is not a bad move.

9 .. h6 looks highly questionable after 10 Bxg6

So probably 9 .. Be7

[vagrant pelican]

Correct. I was thinking about that too

Should we now play Bxg6 irrespective of what he plays?

Or 10 c4 against 9… Be7?

[compact gale]

Or .. Re1?

[faint gorge]

Both looks fine

[compact gale]

There are other moves for GothamChess we should also consider

[slow breach]

I think Bxg6 should remain an "anti-candidate move" until proven otherwise. It's by no means the end of the world, it's just an unnecessary releasing of tension, which is mostly harmless now, but will likely be catostrophic later when we "capture for the sake of capturing." Here is an example where White (like the Anand game I shared before) waits for Black to castle and then plays Bxg6 (the rook is no longer enjoying an open h-file as a consequence of capturing after Black castles).

https://www.chess.com/games/view/152785

I am seeing in this limited sample size some games where White is playing c2-c4. This controls d5 and b5, may support a future d4-d5 pawn break. It does weaken the d4 pawn as it can no longer be supported by a pawn where it stands and Black does enjoy a semi-open d-file to put pressure on the pawn, but it's not clear to me if that is the end of the world.

[vagrant pelican]

What do you suggest we play after 9… Be7? 10 Re1?

[slow breach]

Good question. Right now it feels like we are still reacting to a surge of early votes before I have my first sip of coffee. 🙂 Has anyone looked at Gotham's move patterns at this point? Just curious to know how often we are finding ourselves receiving a New York "midnight" vote, for example.

[compact gale]

One justification for 9 Bg5 Be7 10 Bxg6 is that it enables 11 Qe2 without 11 .. Bxd3 making our queen leave the e file to recapture.

[vagrant pelican]

I think when he’s not online during the day, we’re seeing the midnight New York move

If he’s online during the day, then he moves anytime during the day after our move gets played

[vagrant pelican]

Right. And he has to castle. And he’ll only castle kingside. Right?

[compact gale]

Only 18 hours left in our turn. I think we should look at GothamChess's likely responses to 9 Bg5 which has a big lead and very likely be the vote winner.

[slow breach]

That's an interesting observation, David. Another Grandmaster David agreed with you in a game. My concern at the moment is it feels like we are not yet quite influencing the vote as much as we'd like to get most of the team united around concepts. My only concern with an early Bxg6 is uniting the team around dynamic play. Take a look at this game where Bxg6 is played for a concrete, dynamic reason - I'm concerned about convincing the team to find Bd2, for example: https://www.chess.com/games/view/16883153

Yes, it feels like 9. Bg5 is on its way. I am interested to notice that although it seems like the exact moves we'd like to see haven't quite made it across the finish line, perhaps the ideas of what NOT to play have been somewhat effective? There continues to be a surge of "capturing on g6 for the sake of capturing" votes, but these options have not been running away with the polls. I'll take that as a positive to continue to encourage people to avoid the three typical mistakes. So far, we're just making somewhat mechanical developing moves, but none of these moves are earth shattering.

[vagrant pelican]

Oh interesting. Black castled queen side in that game

[slow breach]

If we can keep people on the "develop sensibly and don't capture without purpose" wave, perhaps 10. Re1 is a reasonable choice after 9...Be7?

[slow breach]

Exactly. White has some interesting attacking chances in that blitz game, but I think it might be a tough sell to suggest Bxg6 and then get people to avoid Bxe7 and favor Bd2. I haven't analyzed any of this too deeply, but feel we are not influencing the voting strategy as much as we'd like. I'm going to keep encouraging people to join the Discord, avoid the three typical mistakes, and try to get more people to join the cause of discussing our moves as a team before voting. Not an easy task, nor was it easy against Magnus. We can only just keep lighting candles and do our best to address areas of darkness. 🙂

[compact gale]

Is 12 h4 insane? Looks interesting ..

[slow breach]

I think it's likely Levy will play 9...Be7 after 9. Bg5. One question for us to think about is how much do we care about allowing him to play 10...Nd5, offering a trade of dark squared bishops and eyeing the f4 square? If we would like to avoid that, 10. c4 would be an option, as played in the Yanovsky game. Judging by the current voting trends, I'm not sure how easily we'll be able to "sell" that move, but it may be worth a try. Otherwise, 10. Re1 seems OK, then we would need to think about 10...Nfd5 and how to handle the bishop tension.

[slow breach]

That's a creative idea! I'm a bit concerned about allowing the trade on g5 and opening up the h-file for Black's rook. Once our bishop disappears, the knight may find a favorable moment to hop into f4 when it feels like the attacking trend is very much against us there.

[compact gale]

I think we should do a poll for Levy's candidate move 9 responses that we should consider

[slow breach]

That sounds like a good idea. I think 9...Be7 is the most likely, 9...h6 requires a concrete response but I doubt he will play it with 10. Bxg6 in the air. 9...Qb6, attacking the pawn we will likey leave behind on b2 after moving our bishop to g5 should also be considered.

[compact gale]

I have commitments today, so will only be able to sneak a few looks at the progress until evening time. GL!

[vagrant pelican]

Sure. But we should continue discussing our responses to 9… Be7

That’s the most likely move

[river prawn]

9.Bg5 h6?? 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5!? hxg6 12.Qd3! Rh6 13.Nxe6 =/∞

We need to play 9..Be7 10.Bxg6

So that h6 can’t be played

[river prawn]

I like 9..Qb6 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.Qd3, indirectly defending b2

[river prawn]

We appear to have enough compensation to prevent black from playing that line

Although 9..Bxd3 10.Qxd3 h6 is possible

Here’s a game I found

1.e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 { B18 Caro-Kann Defense: Classical Variation } 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 e6 8. Bg5 Ngf6 9. O-O Be7 10. Bxg6 hxg6 11. c4 O-O 12. Qe2 c5 13. Rfd1 Qc7 14. a3 Rfd8 15. Rac1 Nb6 16. Nf1 cxd4 17. Nxd4 a6 18. c5 Nbd5 19. c6 Rac8 20. g3 e5 21. Nf3 e4 22. cxb7 Qxb7 23. Ne5 Re8 24. Nc4 Qb5 25. Bxf6 Nxf6 26. b4 Rc6 27. Rc2 Rec8 28. Nfe3 R6c7 29. Kg2 g5 30. Rd4 g6 31. Qd1 Kg7 32. Qa1 Kg8 33. Qa2 g4 34. Rcd2 Qh5 35. Nd6 Bxd6 36. Rxd6 Rc1 37. Rd1 Rxd1 38. Rxd1 Qe5 39. Qe2 Qe6 40. a4 Kg7 41. Qb2 Rb8 42. b5 axb5 43. axb5 Rb7 44. Ra1 Rb8 45. Ra5 Kh7 46. Qd4 Rb6 47. Qc5 Rd6 48. Qg5 Qc8 49. Qe5 Rb6 50. Qe7 Kg7 51. Qa3 Qe6 52. Ra8 Nh7 53. Ra6 Qf6 54. Kf1 { Black resigns. } 1-0

Anyway

The only games I can find went 9.Bg5 Be7

And then 2 went 10.Re1 and 1 went 10.Bxg6

All other things being equal, a game where we play Bxg6 is better than a game where black plays Bxd3 Qxd3 h6

But I think if GothamChess was going to play Bxd3 he would have already done so

[vagrant pelican]

Lily, did you see the game Coach Dane sent in which black castled queen side after Bxg6?

This one… https://www.chess.com/games/view/16883153

[vagrant pelican]

Is Bd2 critical in this line?

[river prawn]

Qe2 makes no sense, we need to play c4 to stop Nd5

Don’t move the queen until black castles kingside

[wraith ravine]

Welcome back Lily

[river prawn]

Here’s a plan
9.Bg5 Be7 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.c4 Qc7 12.Re1 0-0 13.Qc2 Rfe8 14.Rad1 we are chilling

The reason why we don’t play Qe2 or Qc2 early is so we can play 12.Re1 0-0-0?! 13.Qa4! Kb8 14.b4, with a crushing attack

It’s even better than most lines where black castles queenside because the bishop is on e7 instead of d6

Also, we can transpose back to other games

Point is

9.Bg5 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 h6 has never been tried at high level

Ideas for Next Move polls

9..Be7

10.Bxg6
10.Re1
10.c4
10.c3

9..Bd6

10.Bxg6
10.Re1
10.c4
10.c3

9..Qc7

10.Bxg6
10.Re1
10.c4
10.c3

9..Qb6

10.Rb1
10.b3
10.Bxg6

9..Bxd3

Recommend 10.Qxd3 with no poll

Also people are worried about 9..h6 but I think 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5!? fxg6 12.Qd3! Rh6 13.Nxe6 is good

We have two pawns and an attack for the bishop

[river prawn]

Someone check this line

[vagrant pelican]

Good to have you back @river prawn

[river prawn]

We need to make sure 10.Ne5 doesn’t win

[vagrant pelican]

<@&1410727546496221334> can anyone create these polls? I can may be do it after an hour or so

[river prawn]

Because 9.Bg5 Be7 10.Ne5 loses to 10..Nxe5 11.dxe5 Bxd3

12.exf6? loses material after 12..Bxf1 13.fxe7 Qxd1 14.Rxd1 f6 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Kxf1 Kxe7 -+

12.cxd3 Nd5 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 -= or 12.Qxd3 Qxd3 13.cxd3 Nd5 14.Bxe7 Kxe7 -=, either way black has a dominating knight on d5 and we can’t kick it out with c4 because we played cxd3

Actually wait

We get a knight on d6

Hmm

I think we’re at least okay there, but still avoid it

I’m all for 10.Bxg6 so we don’t have to worry about h6 ideas

[tender grove]

I got the feeling he was trying out different move times to see what makes our early votes worse but he might just be playing at random times

[river prawn]

Bg5 is perfectly fine, as long as we play Bxg6 to stop h6

I’m not even sure we have to worry about h6 tho

GothamChess loves his setups, and that’s not part of it

[river prawn]

Okay I figured it out

People play c4 to stop black from playing an early c5

[vagrant pelican]

What’s the worry with h6?

[river prawn]

And we’ve never seen an early c5 because every player with black knows it doesn’t work

[river prawn]

If Bxd3 Qxd3 h6, then Bf4 Nd5 is a problem

Wait a minute

Bxd3 Qxd3 h6 Bd2

[vagrant pelican]

But will the World play Bd2 or exchange with the knight?

[river prawn]

If we play Bxf6 for no reason we are cooked

Like it’s not terrible

But if we can’t stop people from playing an obviously anti-positional move, we will get crushed positionally

[vagrant pelican]

So far people have resisted exchanging the light bishop for 2 moves. But I am not sure if they’ll continue that control with dark bishop as well. Generally people don’t want to exchange bishop for a knight (from the comments during early Bd3 movers). So may be we can retreat to Bd2 by communicating early

[river prawn]

I find it unlikely that GothamChess will play h6

I think we’re going to see a Be7-Qc7- 0-0 setup

Probably with Rfe8 and Rad8

Very solid

[thorn yarrow]

So it looks like 9. b3 has no traction. Anyone know what is the current trend for move 9?

[river prawn]

I like 9..Qb6 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.Qd3, but I don’t think it’s actually good

[river prawn]

9.Bg5!?

That will win, it’s not even close

[thorn yarrow]

9 .Bg5 It is the most popular move on the lichess player database elo < 1600

[pale rover]

Bg5 is like you watch youtube tricks and traps

and then expect an IM to fall into it

[thorn yarrow]

This is an interesting way to play chess.

[pale rover]

Its not entirely terrible

though i would’ve definitely played either Re1 or c4

[thorn yarrow]

I found one game [Event "Titled Tue 2nd Jan Early"]
[Site "chess.com INT"]
[Round "8"]
[Date "2024.1.2"]
[White "Paravyan, David"]
[Black "Donchenko, Alexander"]
[WhiteElo "2612"]
[BlackElo "2643"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Nf3 Nd7 7.Bd3 e6 8.O-O Ngf6 9.Bg5 Be7 10.Bxg6 hxg6 11.Qe2 Nd5 12.Bd2 Qc7 13.c4 N5f6 14.Rac1 O-O-O 15.d5 e5 16.Ng5 Rhf8 17.f4 Kb8 18.fxe5 Nxe5 19.Bf4 Rde8 20.Kh1 Nfd7 21.N5e4 f5 22.d6 Bxd6 23.Nxd6 Qxd6 24.Rcd1 Qe6 25.Rfe1 Ka8 26.h3 Qf7 27.Qd2 a6 28.b3 Re6 29.Re3 Rfe8 30.Ne2 Nc5 31.Nc3 g5 32.Bxg5 f4 33.Rxe5 Rxe5 34.Bxf4 Rf5 35.Bg3 Rf1+ 36.Rxf1 Qxf1+ 37.Kh2 Qd3 38.Qg5 Qxc3 39.Qxc5 Rd8 40.Bf2 Kb8 41.Qa7+ Kc8 42.Qa8+ Kc7 43.Bb6+ Kxb6 44.Qxd8+ Ka7 45.Qc7 Qb2 46.c5 Qxa2 47.Qb6+ Ka8 48.Qd8+ Ka7 49.Qb6+ Ka8 50.Qd8+ Ka7 51.b4 Qc4 52.Qb6+ Ka8 53.Qd8+ Ka7 54.Qd2 Qe4 55.Qc3 g5 56.Kg1 Qf4 57.Qa3 Qd4+ 58.Kh1 Qf4 59.Qa5 Qc1+ 60.Kh2 Qf4+ 61.Kh1 Qf1+ 62.Kh2 Qf4+ 63.Kh1 1/2-1/2

Or i should say one recent master game

I agree 9. Bg5 Is not terrible. Vote chess is not as participatory as I was expecting.

I am doing a lot of self study on this line of the Caro-Kann though.

[gusty pulsar]

It's a just a poor move. You don't have to be even a master to see that.

[wraith ravine]

What's the point of 10.b3 if 9..Qb6?

[tender grove]

we want to play Bc1 Bb2 because the bishop belongs there

why is our bishop going to g5 wtf

[wraith ravine]

(As in isnt taking on g6 first just better)

[barren hatch]

Why isn't 9...h6 a candidate move for Levy?

[pale rover]

its a known mistake

after Bxg6

[river prawn]

I think 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5!? fxg6 12.Qd3! Rh6 13.Nxe6 is good, but that’s very difficult to play

The point is, I think it’s scary enough to scare off Levy from playing 9..h6

Because that’s our advantage, breadth

GothamChess doesn’t know that we don’t know what we’re doing, although after 9.Bg5 he will probably suspect it

But either way, he won’t play dubiously

That’s just not his style

[inner iron]

Ok, here is my question. In regard to the 9 Bg5 most likely being played and a possible response of 9... Be7. What I'm looking at is 10 Bxg6 hxg6. I understand that its an anti-candidate move and that by playing it, it would open up the h file for his rook. I understand people always say that you don't just take without a reason, but as we progress in this game, I'm seeing more and more of a reason TO play this move. Please don't take this as my recommendation yet. I'm not recommending this move yet, just trying to understand why we shouldn't play it... By playing this move, it seems to me that we are messing up his pawn structure slightly and weakening his king protection in the event that he castles kingside. I don't see the issue of opening up that h file because it looks like we still have ample protection there and I feel less worried about that file being open. We already know that caro-kann players tend to castle kingside over castling queenside. Levy included. That being the case, the reason for taking would be to mess up that protection by doubling his pawns on the g file, making him hesitant if only slightly to castle kingside, and also prevent him from playing h6... He'll have to take with either his h pawn or f pawn, it will prevent him from playing Bxd3 and being safe and secure when he does castle kingside (although he might not play Bxc3 since he hasn't done it already). I just keep seeing games where Bxg6 WAS played by master or higher rated players and it turned out well for them... Statistically, it just doesn't seem like a horrible move. It might not fare well if we aren't all on the same page on continuations to this line, and that might be some of the hesitancy to play it, OR it might be that moves like c4 or Re1 are better for us.

[tender grove]

we still have other easy improvements

[river prawn]

Bxg6 after black castles kingside is a good idea, so it follows logically that Bxg6 before black castles kingside is a good idea if black will eventually castle kingside anyway.

Nobody’s tried castling queenside after Bxg6 since 2012, and in that game black got destroyed.

[river prawn]

Bxg6 has been used as a drawing weapon in numerous games where white was rated 200 points below black (2150 vs 2350). One of the games where white got destroyed was a 2025 vs a 2500, and that’s not a result of the opening, that’s just a 2500 destroying a 2025

Frankly, I would be surprised if that game didn’t end in a win for black

Point is

We need to play Bxg6 at some point because we need to play Qc2 or Qe2 at some point

But

We can wait until black castles before playing Bxg6, we have just enough spare developing moves

9.Bg5 Be7 10.c4 Qc7 11.Re1 0-0 12.Bxg6 (finally)

The problem is I have no idea what to do in the middlegame

[tender grove]

we should just play Kh1 Kg1 for the rest of the game

[inner iron]

ok, i just need to be patient then... One thing i didn't take into consideration that some of the wins making the statistics look better, might be because of what you are saying about a 2025 vs a 2500. I wasn't really looking at that part of it, so should look at that as well. And developing is better than going on an attack prematurely, so that sounds more sound i think. Thanks for the guidance, because i was starting to get hung up on playing Bxg6 because of nervousness about him playing Bxd3 and missing the opportunity to ever play it.

[river prawn]

Most of the games are drawn at all levels, especially recently

These lines peaked in popularity about 2010-2014

Very interesting

[vagrant pelican]

Do we need a poll for this? We’ll play Bxg6 then?

[river prawn]

I want someone to check my piece sacrifice. 10.Bxg6 hinges on that sacrifice working

Like yeah we have two pawns and an attack for the piece, but I need a concrete evaluation

[vagrant pelican]

What line is that?

[river prawn]

9..h6?! 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5!? fxg6 12.Qd3 Rh6 13.Nxe6

12.Nxe6 is also a possibility

Here’s why I don’t think we have to calculate individual lines

Because GothamChess won’t play it

[vagrant pelican]

Also, coming back to 9… Be7, currently Re1 is leading in our polls. If Gotham follows that up with 10.. Nd5, is retreating the bishop to d2 the right move there? What if The World exchanges the dark bishop?

[vagrant pelican]

You’re right. Gotham won’t go for it. And as a world team playing against an IM, not sure if we can do that. I might want to give it a try in my own game to make it exciting against a lower rated player. But i don’t think I am qualified to evaluate this line

[river prawn]

We exchange it with Bxe7. We can’t play Bd2 because of Bxd3 and then we have to play cxd3 because the bishop blocks the queen

[river prawn]

The point is it’s scary enough for black that I don’t think it will be played

[vagrant pelican]

Oh right. Sorry. So isn’t 10.c4 better against 9… Be7?

May be he’ll castle and then we can take on g6

[river prawn]

We should play c4 eventually to help control the center

The idea is to take on g6 once black castles kingside

Both Re1 and c4 should be played at some point

And Bxg6

[vagrant pelican]

c4 now helps with that idea right?

[river prawn]

Doesn’t really matter what order

If GothamChess was going to play Bxd3 he would have played it by now

[river prawn]

It’s a distinct idea unrelated to Bxg6

They are two separate moves that we need to play at some point. Neither helps or harms the other

[vagrant pelican]

I know you’ve looked at the game Coach Dane sent in which black castled queen side. But if we go 10 Re1 Nd5
11 Bxe7 Qxe7. It just gives black an option to castle queen side

[river prawn]

Black is not going to castle queenside

In that game, white played Qe2 early, allowing black to castle queenside

[vagrant pelican]

After 11… Qxe7, can’t he do that immediately or after exchanging light bishops?

[river prawn]

But if white keeps the queen on d1 and waits to see where black castles, then white can respond to 0-0-0 with Qa4! Kb8 b4

[vagrant pelican]

See, the value of Bxg6 is only if he castles king side. All I am saying is that by not playing c4 immediately, we’re giving him more options

[river prawn]

GothamChess is not going to castle queenside unless we do something really dumb

[vagrant pelican]

Not necessarily that gives him any edge though

[river prawn]

With the queen stuck on e7, Qb3 followed by c4 and d5 is strong

Use the pin

For example

9.Bg5 Be7 10.Re1 Nd5 11.Bxe7 Qxe7 12.Bxg6 hxg6 13.c4 N5f6 14.Qb3 0-0-0 15.d5 black is in trouble

And 13..N5b6 14.c5! Nd5 15.Ne4 0-0 16.Nd6 is strong

[vagrant pelican]

Ok. So when we recommend 10 Re1, we’ll need to add warning about 10 Bxg6 as well as 10 Bxf6. Both exchanges without a purpose

[tender grove]

Bg5 is pretty dumb

[river prawn]

It’s only kinda dumb

[river prawn]

Hopefully the people that exchange without purpose will be split between those two, preventing either from winning

[tender grove]

idk I feel like the bishop is just bad there after Qc7 or Be7

and then what do we trade it off for no reason

I don’t get it

[river prawn]

Basically, 10.Re1 stops 10..Nd5 because of 11.Bxe7, and either 11.Nxe7 12.c4 and what is that knight doing or 11..Qxe7 12.c4 and then black is in trouble because of pins along the e-file.

[river prawn]

We’ve basically thrown away any advantage that we had, but we’re not worse

[tender grove]

eh it was gonna happen eventually

still hate the move though

[river prawn]

We’re dealing with setups from both sides that peaked in popularity around 2010-2014

And never at high level

Mostly 2200-2350

Are we going with the sacrifice?

Because the safe option is 10.Be3

And right now I don’t feel comfortable enough suggesting such an absurd positional sacrifice when we can’t even vote for 6.h4 or 7.h4

I don’t object, I just have second thoughts

Okay here’s a more general question

Do we ever recommend positional piece sacrifices even if they are objectively good

I’m not talking about tactical sacrifices, I’m talking about positional sacrifices

Two pawns and an attack for a piece, but no clear win

[vagrant pelican]

We don’t need to go sacrifice right? We can evaluate that later

[river prawn]

Yes we do, 10.Bxg6 only works if we sacrifice, we can’t bail out because if 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Bd3 g4, we’re in trouble

Scratch it

We don’t have a safe move

Because 10.Bf4 or 10.Be3 and 10..Bxd3 11.Qxd3 Nd5 is strong

So we have to play the sacrifice, whether we want to or not

I hope it works

But we probably won’t have to use it

9..h6 will not be played

But when we explain 9..h6 10.Bxg6, we have to explain the sacrifice

Because 10.Bxg6 fxg6 11.Bd2 is obviously better for us, but 10.Bxg6 hxg5 requires us to play 11.Nxg5!!

Look

I’d rather go down in flames now with a complex positional sacrifice than get slowly crushed positionally

I think it works, and I hope it does, because nothing else does

But if we get to a situation where the only move that doesn’t lose is a positional sacrifice, we are cooked

And I know GothamChess knows this

But I think he won’t play dubiously

[vagrant pelican]

You’re right. I didn’t realize that

[vagrant pelican]

Can anyone please look at this line in case 9.. h6 is played?

I think I’ll add a poll

[river prawn]

No point

Either it works or it doesn’t

No poll will change that

[vagrant pelican]

Ok I see. But the World might end up exchanging if 9… h6 is played

[river prawn]

look, if 9..h6 is played, we are screwed

either we don't sacrifice and we get a terrible position, or we do convince enough people to go along with the sacrifice, and then inevitably blunder a few moves later

[vagrant pelican]

@gusty pulsar what do you suggest we play against 9.. h6?

[tender grove]

Bc1

just admit we were wrong and lose 2 tempi

put the bishop where it actually belonged

[river prawn]

You know what

9..h6 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5 to Valhalla we go

I’d rather lose with honor

[tender grove]

I mean it’s not like Bc1 would ever win the vote

more likely Bxf6 happens tbh

[vagrant pelican]

Ok. I will create a quick poll

[drifting kiln]

wow we have like no control over the vote lol

what we did last time was just try to survive for as long as possible, since the longer the game is, the more of the "look two seconds and vote" population decreases

doing the sacrifice seems like a good idea, since if the position is complex the votes will be more spread out. only problem is since it's so early in the game most people will prolly vote to keep spamming checks

[vagrant pelican]

Poll for 9.. h6 is up #next-move-polls message

[river prawn]

It’s unlikely to occur anyway

There aren’t any checks to throw in

[vagrant pelican]

The poll for 9… Bd6 is almost at a three way tie. Again, an unlikely move but anyone wants to change their vote or convince others to change theirs?

[river prawn]

I’m changing my vote from 10.Bxg6 to 10.Re1 for consistency

[vagrant pelican]

Perfect, thank you!

[river prawn]

Look, I’d rather go down in flames with 9..h6 10.Bxg6 than admit we screwed up with 10.Bc1

[vagrant pelican]

I am with you on that

[river prawn]

10.Bxf6 and 10.Be3 are also clearly not very good

[vagrant pelican]

For 9.. Qc7, anyone wanting to switch to Re1 for consistency?

[river prawn]

I don’t know if the sacrifice works, but it’s the only thing we got

[river prawn]

Yes

[drifting kiln]

just to clarify, we are referring to 9. Bg5 h6 10. Bxg5 hxg5 11. Bxf7 right?

this actually looks reasonably good, the knights dance around the king and we're only down one pawn

we'll be very easily taking the e6 pawn next aswell. his knights cant manuever to defend and we have the rook and queen to take it

[river prawn]

No

11.Nxg5

Wait what

10.Bxg5 is not a thing

[drifting kiln]

what

how do i share analysis board

[river prawn]

I think you meant 10.Bxg6

Not 10.Bxg5

[drifting kiln]

oh ye

[vagrant pelican]

No. 9..h6?! 10.Bxg6 hxg5 11.Nxg5!? fxg6 12.Qd3 Rh6 13.Nxe6

[drifting kiln]

sorry lol im not fluent in chess language

[drifting kiln]

oh i see

[river prawn]

The reason we throw in Qd3 first is because we want to play Qb3 or Qc4 later

And 12.Nxe6 Qb6 13.Qd3 Kf7 prevents us from winning a tempo

[drifting kiln]

ok so after 11. Nxg5 fxg6 12. Qd3 Rh6 13. Nxe6 Qb6 isnt the attack over

[river prawn]

No

[drifting kiln]

black can castle queenside and we dont really have any thing to attack

[river prawn]

How

Our knight is on e6

[drifting kiln]

oh wait check

[river prawn]

You can’t castle through check

[drifting kiln]

i see

[river prawn]

And we defend the knight with Re1

This isn’t about actually playing this sac

Because there’s almost no chance GothamChess plays 9..h6

This sac is a recruiting tool

To convince people to join our server and help us

By showing them a cool line

Now, yes, we play it if we have to, but we don’t expect to actually have to

[drifting kiln]

oh alr

[river prawn]

I’m not exactly sure how to continue the attack

But I think Re1 is pretty strong

We can deal with that when we get there

[drifting kiln]

im lookin at that rn

[river prawn]

It’s basically a bluff

[drifting kiln]

after rook e1 he just moves king

to f7

then if qc4 he blocks with his knight

[river prawn]

There’s no chance we actually play the sacrifice, even if we tell everyone to

[drifting kiln]

then the king is ready to run to g8

anyhow

[river prawn]

I need to think more

[drifting kiln]

want to look at the other line i made up? It looks pretty promising

the one where we play Bxf7+ first

[river prawn]

I’m not seeing a clear win

But we already have two pawns for the piece and the pawn structure is ruined

[drifting kiln]

im trying to think of moves but it seems way more complex than the other lin

if it ever gets played we'll prolly have good chances at getting our way when voting

im really liking that line but im also 1300 elo so idk if im missing something lol

[river prawn]

I’m probably missing something too

The point is, everything else is not very good

So if 9..h6, we have to go for the sacrifice unless we’ve shown clearly that it’s bad

I’m hoping I can convince some titled player to look at it

Just to get a conclusive answer

Someone else found a line

I checked

13..Qb6 14.Qe3!, setting up a discovery, and if 14..Be7, 15.Nxg7+ and 16.Qxh6
14.Qe3! Kf7 15.Ng5+ Kg8 16.Qe6+ Kh8 17.Nf7+ Kh7, and I think 18.Nxh6 is winning

I say we don’t worry about this too much

Don’t waste too much analysis on a move were unlikely to see

The real question is when should we start worrying about the c5 pawn break

I say now

Add 9..c5 to the list of moves to prepare against

Options:

10.dxc5
10.Bxg6
10.c3

Any other possible moves if 9..c5?

[river prawn]

the c5 pawn break is one of the most well-known and common ideas in the Caro-Kann, especially in positional variations like this

[vagrant pelican]

Lichess shows Re1 also a move being played in that position

[vagrant pelican]

Ok I will add a poll

[river prawn]

Add that too

We should start prepping for c5 on each and every move unless it is obviously bad

The isn’t like some goofy h6 idea, this is the pawn break in the Caro-Kann

I promise to not suggest any more moves

lol

[vagrant pelican]

No. You’re good. I missed adding this

[river prawn]

The problem is no one has talked about it in the chat

Not even the idea of it at any point

Even though it’s the pawn break in the Caro-Kann

Levy will play it eventually

[compact gale]

lichess candidates: c3, dxc5, Bxg6, Re1 and whoah d5!?

[pale rover]

doubt he will play c5 but if he does c3 looks as out best option, looking for a trade

[river prawn]

d5 is dumb and loses a pawn for no reason

[pale rover]

d5 really?

[river prawn]

we really don't want to play cxd4 cxd4

[pale rover]

yeah whats the plan there

[river prawn]

i mean cxd4 Nxd4 is fine

[river prawn]

i don't even know

[pale rover]

fair

[vagrant pelican]

Sorry I played 9 Bf4 while looking at the database. After 9 Bg5 only 9… Be7 shows up

[river prawn]

The eventual c5 pawn break is why we have to play Qc2 or Qe2, because c5 forces the d-file open and Levy will have a rook on d8

So we have to get our queen off the d-file

[compact gale]

OK, what's wrong with d5? It hsd a 80% win rate in the lichess database, but ignoring that, what's not to like?

[river prawn]

Too small sample size

It loses a pawn

[compact gale]

How?

[vagrant pelican]

Is this against 9… c5?

[compact gale]

yes

[vagrant pelican]

I don’t see any games on lichess

[compact gale]

not master db, lichess db

[vagrant pelican]

Oh i see. Thank you

[compact gale]

don't worry about this too much, what I like that it feels so good (what the heck ya doin Levy, you aint even castled yet)

[vagrant pelican]

You’re saying we gain it back eventually

[compact gale]

Yes I think so

[vagrant pelican]

May be a bit misleading because all the 4 wins for white are rated 2000 (2041) or lower

[compact gale]

Re1+ or Qe2+ or Bxf6 or Bb5 all feel pretty good

[vagrant pelican]

And small sample size anyway

[river prawn]

he'll castle on move 10 probably

[compact gale]

I know (stop thinking about that) look at the move and what it does, perfect punishment for not castling while breaking too early in the center

[river prawn]

if we play c4, c5 d5 becomes much better

same with Re1

we can't really stop c5 completely though

it's complicated

[compact gale]

Just sayin, if he plays 9 .. c5?, shove 10 d5! in his face. It is looking good. What is he gonna do? This is not a pawn sac.

see how my annotation is slipping in there 🙂

[river prawn]

Wait

You’re right

[compact gale]

I would say it refutes 9 .. c5.

[river prawn]

9..c5 10.d5 exd5 11.Re1+ Be7 12.Qe2 with compensation

Black can’t castle, can’t untangle pieces

That has to be winning

Unfortunately everyone already voted for 10.c3

I should have seen that 10.d5 wins, but nobody has tried 12.Qe2

Because without 12.Qe2, black just castles and is up a pawn

None of the lichess games had that, which is why I didn’t consider it

See this is why you shouldn’t trust small sample size

White did great even though white never played the whole point of the pawn sacrifice

Yeah, 9..c5 10.d5 is better for us

[compact gale]

Poll votes are not final. Let's rally folks to change their vote!

[river prawn]

I changed my vote based on new information

[compact gale]

After 9 .. c5? 10 d5! is clearly our best response

[river prawn]

Show 10.c3 voters 10.d5! exd5 11.Re1+ Be7 12.Qe2

[compact gale]

I'll add the emoji and translation

[river prawn]

Okay, so since that doesn’t work, I guess GothamChess plays 9..Be7

All of these lines are pointless

But we should worry about c5 in the future after black castles

[compact gale]

🚨 = 10 d5

[river prawn]

Yes, because it’s a pawn sac

[compact gale]

Whether its a pawn sac is up to us.

[vagrant pelican]

Why can’t black castle?

[river prawn]

Qxe7 chomp

Tasty bishop

Black basically has to play Kf8, but that just looks awful

Don’t forget to specify what 🚨 means

Once again, this is a classic positional sacrifice

Now, I don’t think we could accurately exploit our positional advantages before GothamChess regroups and utilizes his material advantage, but GothamChess doesn’t know that

All we have to do is find a line that shows a certain move doesn’t work, and unless that line is completely absurd, we don’t have to worry about that move

[compact gale]

So 9 .. c5? 10.d5! exd5 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12 Re1+ Be7 13 Bxg6 hxg6 14 Qxd5 I think recaptures nicely and we are doing very finely

What are we saying against 9 .. h6 ? 10 Bxg5 trust! ?

I haven't analyzed that one fully, but it is so so tempting a sacrifice. I think (hope?) it is sound

[vagrant pelican]

You mean Bxg6.

[cerulean path]

Do we think Gotham's is analyzing his heart out?

[compact gale]

Gosh, would that shut up the Alien Gambit folks!!

[cerulean path]

what move are we playing today?

[vagrant pelican]

Other can be anything. The emoji is confirming the particular move

[wise lotus]

no, i am not adding my vote to other. please leave me alone in peace bc i'm busy, thanks.

[compact gale]

Come on @vagrant pelican , really?

[vagrant pelican]

That’s how I have interpreted it always

[river prawn]

No, which is why he’s far more likely to stick to something safe and simple like 9..Be7

[compact gale]

If they voted for something else, they would have to move the vote to Other, right?

[river prawn]

Yes

[vagrant pelican]

Ah yes. They have to remove their earlier vote and at least tap on the emoji

[sand panther]

Came here to say d5

[compact gale]

and vote for it in the 9 .. c5 poll?

[naive marten]

i wouldnt expect 9... c5

wouldnt make sense for black to play it

too early

[compact gale]

That wasn't clear before we found 10 d5

[naive marten]

no but its just not principled to play c5 here

its just not the standard move

[river prawn]

It’s principled to play it at some time, so we should calculate it for every move

On this move we see it doesn’t work

[naive marten]

not this early

[river prawn]

We should still check

[tender grove]

he’s not playing c5

[naive marten]

you shouldnt worry about c5 here

[river prawn]

Cool

We proved that

[naive marten]

black should be doing plenty of other stuff first

[river prawn]

Yeah

[compact gale]

https://www.chess.com/votechess/game/386700 is down!

[river prawn]

I’d rather have us look at potential moves that turn out to be bad and won’t get played than get blindsided

[tender grove]

cc probably crashed cuz we’re playing such an awful move

[river prawn]

Bg5 isn’t awful

It’s not great

[tender grove]

I hate it

[naive marten]

bg5 is pretty bad

[tender grove]

the bishop is just being a bozo over there

[river prawn]

Where else do we put it

[tender grove]

our pin does nothing

b2

[river prawn]

Yeah that was never going to win

[tender grove]

meh

[river prawn]

Barely got 1%

[tender grove]

if we wanted to make a brainless development move we should have played Re1

[naive marten]

the bishop pretty much never goes to g5

[tender grove]

but no we have to put our bishop on one of the worst possible squares

id even prefer d2 to a certain extent

after taking on g6 or something

[naive marten]

re1 seemed the most natural to me

[tender grove]

yeah Re1 was good

I thought c4 was also decent

[naive marten]

i dont think theres any reason to rush it

[tender grove]

eh doesn’t make much difference it’s probably getting played eventually

[naive marten]

sure

[tender grove]

I did like strengthening a potential d5 pawn break but it’s unlikely he would have allowed that with his king in the center

plus it’s a lot weaker without Re1 anyway

[river prawn]

Both Re1 and c4 should get played eventually

And if they don’t we’re cooked

Low Elo players seem to prefer c3 over c4

[tender grove]

c4 is less required but yeah id be surprised if they didn’t happen eventually

[compact gale]

Posted our recommendations

Let me know if any changes are needed

[river prawn]

Do you want to add 9..c5 10.d5?

It only works if 10.d5 exd5 11.Re1+ Be7 12.Qe2!

[compact gale]

I'd love to, but it did not win the poll. I think some people specifically voted for c3 after?

So if I put it in, I would have to show 9 .. c5 10 c3

[river prawn]

No

Also that poll was a late addition anyway

Results are not final

[compact gale]

That is one line, there are others that are also good

We are often forced to publish before polls have completed 24 hours. (we don't have anything between 8h and 24h we can choose)

We can call those early or initial polls

[river prawn]

The vote closes soon

Do you think GothamChess will move tonight? I doubt it

[compact gale]

I hope not!

But he did move late last night

what was the reason for 9... c5. 10 c3 ?

[river prawn]

idk, defend the pawn?

[tender grove]

as levy would say: me pawn attacked, me defend pawn

[river prawn]

9.Bg5 has been played

I’m pretty sure GothamChess is somewhere on the East Coast, in which case we shouldn’t expect a reply for another 6-10 hours

[tender grove]

(New York)

[river prawn]

Ok

[pearl rover]

I’m also very unhappy with Bg5. We should be careful not to trigger a massive piece exchange and end up with an isolated queen’s pawn after Black plays e5 or c5. That’s what I think Levy should be aiming for.

Do we have a plan for our knight on g3 that doesn’t involve trading it?

[outer lance]

I thought of playing something like this, mainly to win a pawn at the end of the line.
... 9.Bg5 c5 10.d5 exd5 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Re1+ Be7 13.Bxg6 hxg6 14.Qxd5

. OC playing 11. Re1+ looks good to me, as well.

[vagrant pelican]

d5 is now tied with c3 in the 9… c5 poll

[wraith ravine]

Winning now

[vagrant pelican]

Updating our recommendation
————————

If GothamChess plays 9... c5, we play 10 d5 refuting the early c5 push. If GothamChess takes our d pawn, we can check him and prevent him from castling and eventually winning our pawn back with a strong attack.

[river prawn]

Is 9..Be7 10.Re1 c5 any better?

Almost nobody plays it

[vagrant pelican]

Probably not. We can still go d5?

He probably needs to wait to play c5 till he castles

[compact gale]

11 d5 doesn't work anymore since 11 Nxd5 is good now.

[compact gale]

Still too early. 11 dxc5 Bxc5 12 Bxg6 hxg6 13 Ne4 looks good for us

[river prawn]

11..Bxc5

[compact gale]

Yes, $&-+++(!!! spell checker!! Can that be turned off?

[river prawn]

lol

Yes it can

Depends what device you’re on

[compact gale]

Discord app on Android

It just mangles chess notation

[river prawn]

Same

I’m on iPhone but yeah

[inner iron]

In the next move polls, if GothamChess plays 9... c5, then the emoji for 10 d5! has surpassed 10 c3. Shouldn't the recommendation be updated for the chess.com viewers to reflect that?

[compact gale]

@inner iron It was, I believe. Double checking. It was back there, updated by @vagrant pelican . I reposted it.

[inner iron]

Yeah, it was updated, however, others were bumping the recommendation from previous posts.

I just bumped the latest one.

[proud pecan]

Why on earth did we even go Bg5 🫠

[river prawn]

idk

Is 10.Re1 even winning?

I’m saving my vote until someone tells me the percentages

[proud pecan]

It is I just did mine

[outer lance]

Re1 has a solid lead, 369 vs 179

[river prawn]

Yes, by a significant margin

Generally speaking, percentages stay consistent

So I’m calling it, 10.Re1 will win

[proud pecan]

34-17%

So yeah it’s a good margin

[vagrant pelican]

Black’s popular responses are: Qc7, O-O, Bxd3, Qb6. Rest of the moves are played <2% of the times

[river prawn]

Bd6 is indicative of Qc7

0-0 is just Qc7 later

[outer lance]

At least we don't need a poll still for 10. Bxd3, right?
I know I would feel silly if I played 11. cxd3 against that.

[proud pecan]

I really wanted 9.Bf4 to hinder his bishop and get on that diagonal first 🫠 the queen is moving in the next 2 moves so pinning the knight is an illusion 😭

[river prawn]

Bf4 would have stopped this Bd6-Qc7 setup

[vagrant pelican]

Correct

[vagrant pelican]

Qc7, we go c4?

[river prawn]

Yes, we need to keep open the possibility of playing c5

[outer lance]

Yes, c4 looks solid to me.

But for one or more moves now, Bxg6 also looks' fine / playable.

With one continuation being 11. Bxg6 hxg6 12. c4 O-O 13. c5... .

. I know we are trying to avoid that Bxg6 move, at least until after Black castles O-O, or any other valid looking reasons ?
. We would look like "flip-floppers" if we promote it here, though.
. I still think it should still be included in the poll against 10. Qc7.

[thorn yarrow]

The position is following the game of Mikhail Chigorin versus Moishe Leopoldowicz Lowcki 1903 All-Russian Masters Tournament. 10. Re1 is the move Chigorin played. Lowcki followed with 10. ... Qc7 11. c4 0-0 12 B:g6 hg Lowcki makes a tactical blunder at move 23. The position looks relatively even up to move 20.

[proud pecan]

Are we considering c4 in the coming moves or are we looking elsewhere?

[vagrant pelican]

Yes. I think we’ll be seriously looking at c4 if Qc7 is played

c4 and Bxg6 are likely to be our next 2 moves

[proud pecan]

Qc7 is gonna be played for sure

[pale rover]

Qc7 is most likely

[proud pecan]

we might see castles first but idk

oh no hes gonna leave us in the dark

Qc7 is next for sure

[outer lance]

Yes, against 10. Re1, 11. Qc7, O-O, and Bxd3 are probably the three most likely moves we need to prepare for.

. Only Gotham for sure knows OC, but I think part of the reason he played 9. Bd6 was to get us out of a Book Opening a bit faster.
. Just as important for Black, 9. Bd6 didn't look like a bad move to me, either.

[river prawn]

Right, except we can easily transpose back to book with 11.c4

[river prawn]

Is 10.Re1 Qc7 11.Nf5 a good idea, or should we just go with 11.c4

[vagrant pelican]

So he’ll respond with 12… O-O? Then we exchange at d6 and g6?

[compact gale]

11 Nf5 Bxf5 12 Bxf5 O-O isn't so good for us.

[river prawn]

Why is this worse than Nf5 in other lines

[compact gale]

I don't think he had the option of castling?

[river prawn]

Like 9.Re1 Bd6 10.Nf5

Oh

It’s because we played Bg5 for no good reason

Yeah

Okay, just stick to 11.c4

Lot easier than trying to convince people to play 11.Nf5 lol

Just a fair warning that many of these lines have unrealistically high win rates for white in online play because a lot of the times black castles queenside, which isn’t a good idea

We are definitely going to see Qc7 and 0-0, in either order

Wow

[vagrant pelican]

And so c4 and Bxg6 from us

[river prawn]

34 games after 10.Re1 Qc7 11.c4 0-0 12.Bxg6 hxg6

It’s like a nexus

We should head for that position

[inner iron]

I know that Qc7 and O-O are likely his next two moves to continue with development before attacking, but I just wondered if there was a possibility he would throw in Bxd3 in between those two moves to keep his pawn structure intact since it looks like he's going to castle on the kingside? I know he likely would have played it previously, but didn't know if that would be an option for him since we'd pretty much have to take back with Qxd3, then he could castle and his pawn structure would be safe...

[river prawn]

castling kingside after hxg6 isn’t a problem because we castled kingside too

Although you’re right, in some games black threw in Bxd3

I propose the scorched-earth 13.c5!?

[inner iron]

Like the following: 10... Qc7 11 c4 Bxd3 12 Qxd3 O-O.... Didn't know if this would be good for him or not.

[river prawn]

I think it’s just about as good as 10..Qc7 11.c4 0-0 12.Bxg6 hxg6, but if GothamChess was going to play Bxd3 he would have done it already

idk, he might throw it in but I doubt it

I just think we’re heading for that tabiya

Lots of ideas

[inner iron]

I kind of wonder if Levy has been playing conservatively or making some drawish moves and is playing a type of waiting game until we blunder so that he can capitalize on it... But that might just be me being paranoid. I kind of think in our position, if he moved 10... Qc7, i'd probably go with c4 over Nf5 myself mainly because i'm trying to be safe and not jump the gun. I think Nf5 could get us into trouble with the mass votes, and i tend to think that they'll think c4 is more natural and play that... Both moves COULD possibly be fine, but c4 seems safer with a crowd vote. I might be wrong though, cause I wouldn't have thought it would have made the Bg5 vote....

[compact gale]

I think the Nf5 moment has passed. c4 is in our future, quite likely. The Nexus is coming .. unless Bxd3

[wooden marsh]

I think Levy was planning on trading off the bishops on g6 and capturing with his h pawn to potentially start a king-side attack. Noting that possibility, we might need to play h3 in the future.

[tender grove]

Bf4 Nd5 seemed like an improvement for black (not like it really matters cuz we wasted a turn playing Bg5 instead

)

[river prawn]

Okay I’m pretty sure 10..h6? 11.Bxg6 hxg5 12.Nxg5 is even more obviously winning than last move because 12..fxg6 13.Qd3 Rh6 14.Rxe6+ Be7 15.Rae1 is crushing

Like black is getting annihilated there

[river prawn]

No, because then he would have to castle queenside, and we’ve shown that doesn’t work

[tender grove]

I still think the king walk idea is funny even though it definitely sucks

[river prawn]

10..c5 11.d5! is still strong

[river prawn]

King walk?

[tender grove]

black playing Kf8 Kg8

after hg6 ofc

[outer lance]

Lol, was just about to write something about that, too.

. Gotham would only consider h6 here, if he was in "teacher" mode - not very likely in this type of game.
. I could also see him sacrificing the R, if he was playing as White, and someone else played h6.

Just for fun / as a hypothetical, one R sac line could go:

... 10.Re1 h6 11.Rxe6+ fxe6 12.Bxg6+ Ke7 13.Bh4 Nf8 14.Qd3 Bxg3 15.hxg3 Nxg6 16.Qxg6

. I only just looked at this series of moves, so there could be even better R sac moves / lines to play against 10. h6.

[compact gale]

12 Rxe6+ is stronger in this line

[river prawn]

Several things win lol

Point is

h6 is not a thing

And neither is c5 because of d5

This is another reason why we want to play c4

So we can potentially respond to c5 with d5 later

[compact gale]

Yes, but I thought it might be educational for folks to see they have a position which can do things like that.

[river prawn]

Yeah

Lots of interesting ideas

I wouldn’t worry too much about Qb6

It looks like GothamChess is going for a standard setup with Qc7 and 0-0

idk which he’ll play first

But as soon as GothamChess plays 0-0, we snap off the bishop with Bxg6

Prevents h6 and allows us to play Qe2 or Qc2 without losing a tempo

Or even Qd2, with the idea of b4-c5

The real question is: to what extent do we want to stop the c5 pawn break?

How far should we go

Because at the tabiya, we can go scorched earth with 13.c5!?

This also sets up the possibility of Ne4-Nd6 and using the outpost

But we could also play 13.Qc2 Rfe8 14.Rad1 Rad8 15.a3 c5 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.b4, but I’m not sure what to do next after 17..Be7

[river prawn]

But that allows black to put a knight on d5 and also allows the possibility of the e5 pawn break

[compact gale]

GN!

[river prawn]

gn

[compact gale]

There are 5 polls up for Move 11. Don't rush to do them immediately, but after some discussion, do spend some time with those. GN2!

[outer lance]

Sorry that I voted for the anti-candidate move Bxg6 before Black has castled O-O, in most of the polls.
I believe it is a solid move, and is also a decent way to get us back into a book with some good options, see one example line below:

... 10.Re1 Qc7 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.c4 O-O 13.c5 Bxg3 14.hxg3 Nd5 15.Qc2 b6 16.Bd2 a5 17.cxb6 ...

[inner iron]

One last additional poll posted for Move 11. (Sorry a little late....)

[river prawn]

It’s functionally identical, black is going to castle kingside anyway

I just think we should tell people to wait until black castles kingside

Although, if 11.Bxg6 is winning, that’s okay

10.c4 is in third, so 11.c4 has a good chance of winning

[outer lance]

Yes, it makes sense because we have been telling chess.com chat that we need a reason to take it.

Maybe I will change my vote in the poll except for the O-O one, since I don't think Bxg6 needs any help in winning the vote soon in the actual game.

[river prawn]

Bxg6 has been gaining in popularity each move

I think we should expect 0-0 before Qc7 but idk

[outer lance]

Those moves are much more likely than 10. h6 or c5.

I can't tell which is more likely worse for Black, and I voted for 11. Bxg6 against 10. c5 too.

. 11. d5 would be another strong choice, mainly because of very likely being up a pawn in the exchange.
. I voted 11. Bxg6 mainly to simplify, and likely still get the advantages of playing d5 first.

See one possible line below, again just for fun since I am very doubtful Black will play that here.

... 10.Re1 c5 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.d5 e5 13.Nxe5 O-O 14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.c4 Re8 16.Nf3 Rxe1+ 17.Qxe1 b5 18.b3 ...

[river prawn]

I’m changing my vote for the 10..c5 poll to “don’t care”

Because it won’t happen

I’m done calculating h6 and c5 refutations when they’ll never happen

[proud pecan]

Bg5 was dumb we pin nothing the queen will move this turn

At that bishop is exactly where we could’ve attacked it already

Obviously never would have cos we woulda been there first but 🫠

Idk I’m sure as the game moves on from our cooked opening we’ll all be on the same page

And it should become pretty enjoyable

Disclaimer tho I’m only a 600 and I don’t know what I’m talking about

So take it with a grain of salt

[pearl rover]

I agree — he wouldn’t have played Bd6 if there were any danger of the pin with Re1 and Nf5. But the danger remains if he doesn’t castle. Also, Qc7 blocks the bishop’s retreat squares while keeping its eyes on the e5 square. The black queen can also control e5 and put pressure on our bishop from a5.

[pearl rover]

I just want to say that Qc7 is a very committed move, while O-O isn’t.

[slow breach]

Hi all! Just checking in after Levy's 9...Bd6. I just shared my commentary in the game chat, supporting our 10. Re1. As I mentioned in the discussion, Levy's intuition helps him immediately avoid wasting time considering unnecessary, potentially harmful captures like ...Bxg3 or Bxg6, but as a community, we need to do our best to help build a "team intuition" that avoids considering empty forcing moves like one move captures, checks, and attacks. Please do consider continuing this narrative as I see a number of you already sharing in the game chat. Slowly, but surely, we are hopefully raising awareness to these concepts, especially as they become increasingly relevant when standard developing moves are no longer available. 🙂

[vagrant pelican]

Thanks Coach. Would you consider voting in our next move polls?

We’ve been thinking of using your vote or recommendation as a tie breaker if it comes to that

You can possibly ignore c5 and h6 polls

[vagrant pelican]

We’re most likely playing c4 if he doesn’t castle next move and plays may be Qc7

[river prawn]

Okay here’s a crazy idea from a slightly different position, but it might make sense
10.Re1 Qc7 11.Nf5 Bxf5 12.Bxf5 0-0 13.Bh3!?

The problem is when the bishop goes back to d3 it gets in the way of white’s pieces

[compact gale]

And with g3 at some point it can fianchetto.

[river prawn]

I don’t like 11.Nf5 though

It also won’t win

[compact gale]

We have better options

[river prawn]

Yeah, like 11.c4 or 11.Bxg6

[river prawn]

I think we need to explain that we play 10..0-0 11.Bxg6 because we don’t have to worry about the h-file

While that was never actually an issue in the first place, that was the main thing scaring people from playing Bxg6

[compact gale]

@vagrant pelican do you have time to make that edit? I can do in about 20m

[vagrant pelican]

Sure

Done

[river prawn]

Apparently 10..0-0 11.Ne5 is pretty common, should we tell people not to play that

We really should be discussing move 13 ideas

10..Qc7 11.Nf5 Bxf5 12:Bxf5 0-0 13.Bh3!? is actually a lichess novelty, with every single one of the 60 games that reached that position going 13.Bd3

It would never get enough votes tho

Just a cool idea

10.Re1 has been played

We await a response

[compact gale]

By whom? I agree it does worse than not do much.

[river prawn]

All games on lichess, relatively consistent percentage across all levels

[river prawn]

10..0-0 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.c4 Qc7 13.Qe2 Rfe8 14.Rad1 looks very solid

Last time someone tried it was 2020 and the game went 14..c5 15.dxc5 Bxc5 16.Bc1!?

What is that move

What does that even accomplish

[vagrant pelican]

I see a comment on team chat regarding c4 making d4 weak. We should address that

[sharp magnet]

Could be some b3 or just protecting b2 but idk

[river prawn]

d4 is already strong, c4 weakens it a little bit, but it's still strong, I don't know how to explain that to voters but yeah

[pearl rover]

There aren’t any master games left in the opening explorer. I’m not sure we should trust the online rapid or blitz games, a 2100 Lichess player is roughly equivalent to an 1800 FIDE player. Also, correspondence games are vastly different from rapid or blitz; they’re driven by deep positional and endgame play, while rapid and blitz thrive on tactics. Most 1800 players don’t know much about endgames.

Did someone look at Qa5?

[pearl rover]

btw, is there a pgn of all the lines we looked at?

[river prawn]

There are a ton of games if 10..0-0 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.c4 Qc7

[river prawn]

We need to identify 10..0-0 11.Ne5 as an anti-candidate move. It makes any future c5 pawn break by black much better by undermining support for the knight.

[pearl rover]

why do you expect levy to play Qc7 after c4? It would block his own bisschop

[river prawn]

The queen has to go somewhere, and that’s not blocking the bishop because the queen is behind the bishop

13.c5 weakens the d5 square

[pearl rover]

It’s blocking the bishop’s retreat to c7.

[river prawn]

12..Qc7 13.c5 Bf4

[pearl rover]

And exchange a good bishop for a bad bishop?

[river prawn]

13..Bxg3 is goofy and 13..Be7 looks passive

Hmm

13.c5 is the most common move in recent games

All of the last three games

It’s a question if trading the d5 square for the d6 square is worth it

[pearl rover]

This is what I’m looking at. I haven’t double-checked it yet.

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. Bd3 e6 8. O-O
   Ngf6 9. Bg5 Bd6 (9... Bd6 10. Re1 O-O 11. Bxg6 hxg6 12. c4 Qc7 13. c5 Bf4 14.
   Bxf4 Qxf4 15. Ne5 Nxe5 16. dxe5 Nd5 (16... Nh5 17. Nxh5 gxh5 18. Qxh5) (16...
   Nh7 17. Qd7) 17. Re4 Qh6 (17... Qg5 18. Rg4 Qd8 19. Ne4) 18. Re2 Rad8 (18... f6
2. exf6 gxf6 20. Rxe6) 19. Ne4 f6 20. exf6 gxf6 21. Nd6) *

[river prawn]

Why play 15.Ne5

[slow breach]

Thanks for the update! That makes sense to me. This is a really important point to try and build "community intuition" here by avoiding the three typical mistakes. I added some commentary in the game chat supporting this point, as well as trying to get the team into the habit of identifying "What has changed" after Levy's last move and what he would likely play next.

[pearl rover]

A central clamp aiming for a knight outpost on d6. It deflects Black’s knight from controlling the e5 square

[river prawn]

15.Ne5 Nxe5 16.dxe5 black can throw in 16..Rfd8! 17.Qb3 Rd2 18.Rf1 Ng4 and white is in trouble

wait, 18.Re2

[pearl rover]

Thanks, I haven’t checked that one yet. I guess we’ll have to find another way to reroute the knight to d6.

[river prawn]

idk

but black can throw in a few attacking moves with tempo before moving the knight from f6

wait, i think 16..Rad8 is better because if Qxb7 the a8 rook doesn't hang

yeah

15.Ne5 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Rad8 17.Qb3 Rd2 18.Re2 Ng4

white is in trouble

this is why we have to get our queen off the d-file before opening it

it looks like 15.Ne5 is fine because 15..Nxe5 16.dxe5 Nd5 17.Re4 is good, but black throws in a few rook moves with tempo, and we're in trouble

15.Qe2 works, 15.Rc1 works

just not 15.Ne5

[wraith ravine]

Im assuming there's no threat of Bxg3 and then some kingside attack right?

[river prawn]

no, that's not an issue at any point.

Black is going to castle kingside and finish developing

GothamChess played 10..0-0

Preliminary votes are in, it looks like it’s between 11.Ne5 and 11.Bxg6

Not even close

[wraith ravine]

It's nice that it's a move here so it isnt gonna be played later when it might have become a really bad move

[river prawn]

idk, 12.Ne5 could be played

No poll for potential moves

GothamChess is not playing 11..fxg6 and hanging the e6 pawn

ok it would appear the percent margin is decreasing but the raw vote margin is increasing

[vagrant pelican]

We’ll do a formal poll for our move but c4 is what we’ll be playing? Any other moves we should consider?

[slow breach]

Now is a good time to get on the same page and decide what moves are likely to be considered. Assuming 11. Bxg6 makes it across the finish line, 12. Ne5 will continue to gain quite a bit of traction. I also predict 12. Ne4, attacking the pinned knight may also gain attention. This would be a good time to mention the utility of 12. c4 with some basic developing plan if that is the path we want to follow.

The earlier we can explain these ideas to the chat and try to get more people on board with Discord and game chat discussion, the better. 🙂

[river prawn]

12.Ne5 is bad because the knight can be undermined with c5, right?

12.Ne4 is good but I'm worried people will respond to 12..Be7 with 13.Nxf6+ or 13.Bxf6, which are Mistake One: Capturing for the sake of capturing

[slow breach]

I personally don't like 12. Ne5 as it doesn't seem to build our position in any meaningful way and makes d4 a bit more tender as you're suggesting. 12. Ne4 will initiate a number of potential trades - not the end of the world and may have certain practical advantages if we're able to simplify into a fairly tranquil position. 13. Nxf6+ isn't the end of the world, and after 13...Bxf6, I assume it may be hard to get 14. Qd2 across the finish line to maintain the tension after multiple simplying options. Even there, 14. Bxf6 isn't the end of the world, but as you noted, we are drifting into Mistake One territory.

We'll definitely need to think about how playable a position will be for the community. 12. c4 makes good sense, but how long will we resist c4-c5? I am hesitant to make a committal move like that without a very concrete reason, as we're otherwise creating a huge hole on d5 and leaving the d4 pawn backward for Levy to target. There's definitely some value in spending time thinking about 12. Ne4, and what the position would look like with multiple trades. Even if we trade everything on f6, I think White is likely at least OK there, even if it isn't the most inspiring position in the world. 🙂

[river prawn]

12.c4 Qc7 13.c5!? has actually been played in all of the last 3 Masters Games, so it's probably not actually that bad

as long as we avoid 13..Bf4 14.Bxf4 Qxf4 15.Ne5?!