math-and-meta

[frosty owl]

This sort of categorical "buffers are useless" is why we then see people clogging recicling facilities because they don't have enough buffering for their system and may end up rethinking the whole pipe network where a single simple buffer would have fixed it

[oblique hollow]

And then you tell em to VIP it and all is good

This is simoly a ploy to sell more people on the idea of a VIP

So that once the VIP mechanic no longer functions, everyone suffers

[frosty owl]

Making a VIP is part of rethinking the pipe network 🤷‍♂️
Which is not an issue per se, but saying that buffers are useless excludes the situations in which they actually save work over redesigning the whole network

[oblique hollow]

Its not redesigning if you always build vip to begin with

[frosty owl]

You don't have a problem if you don't have a problem to begin with

[oblique hollow]

Also I'm me, of course i dont have pipe issues

Time for a shitty meme:

"Tired of pipe problems?
Easily fixed!
Step 1: be me"

[wind spade]

Solid buffers

Not fluid

[midnight oar]

Does anyone have a rough estimate for the throughput of a drone? I know it varies on distance but they are very fast

[vapid gorge]

Depends even more on stack sizes.

[midnight oar]

Can even a t5 belt load a full port In time?

[vapid gorge]

Depends how long the return flight is and the stack sizes XD 50 sized stacks are pretty damn fast

[midnight oar]

Oh ofc - am very thick

[vapid gorge]

You'd want REAL long flights for wire though

[midnight oar]

Am going for a near full drone build so a central battery distribution hub and trying to figure out how many I’ll need etc

[vapid gorge]

I think it's close to 30 seconds take off and landing so you'd have 2 minutes +flight time to load.

[midnight oar]

Wish they added a second loading belt 😦

[vapid gorge]

You can avoid a ton of battery usage and flights needed by building at the location of hte resources though.

[midnight oar]

Which resources? And which location do you recommend then

[spare latch]

Hi

Do i have to underclock my steelbeam factory or can you do it without?

[vapid gorge]

Well it depends on what you want to build and how much. There's a nice spot against NW of the blue crater that's pretty good for bauxite refinery, but if you want it all you'll need to transport the bauxite from other ends of hte map

[vapid gorge]

Underclocking is good to save power especially early game if that's an issue. Otherwise I generally build huge power station so I don't worry about power

[midnight oar]

So I’ve centralised all the bauxite into one place in the middle

[vapid gorge]

Good plan 🙂 Have you got the alt recipes for them?

[midnight oar]

Yes

[vapid gorge]

Nice, and the Classic Battery recipe?

[spare latch]

Well i have 6000mw

No 600

[midnight oar]

Played with a friend who collected all the hard drives for me - have every recipe

[vapid gorge]

600mw is ok very early on but working on setting up a 4-5000mw coal power station wlil help you get to fuel w/o worrying about shorting out

[midnight oar]

Which is the best recipe for efficiency though?

Battery wise

[vapid gorge]

That again is very dependent. For Batteries I'd go classic all the way. Simpler and better.

[oblique hollow]

Depends on what efficiency

Aluminum efficiency? Sulfur? Oil?

[midnight oar]

Which are the bottleneck resources ? It used to easily be bauxite

[oblique hollow]

Sulfur

[midnight oar]

Our aim is to max nucelsr power, drone as much as we can

[oblique hollow]

Then sulfur will be your bottleneck

[vapid gorge]

Maxing nuclear power is surprisingly cheap on resources. The alt recipes for them are gneerally pretty evident on which to use too

[oblique hollow]

Though even that is questionable since you can do nuclear and have more than half of all sulfur left

[midnight oar]

Thanks

[spare latch]

How much coal do i need for that?

[midnight oar]

Is there a resource I can use to find this stuff out?

[spare latch]

And how many nodes?

[vapid gorge]

@midnight oar to both of you, look at the satisfactory wiki 🙂

[midnight oar]

1 coal (resource) = 10mw

Does the wiki say which your bottleneck will be?

[oblique hollow]

Not really

Use a production calc and maximize

[vapid gorge]

Try this https://satisfactory-calculator.com/ it DOES contain map spoilers though if that maters to you

[vapid gorge]

Well Coal generators do 75mw each I think, so 10x for 750mw. Check out the wiki for the numbers 🙂

[frosty owl]

Same deal, just with fewer issues afaik (it still comes down to fluids clogging due to solids clogging)

[wind spade]

solids clogging isn't issue of buffers, but not sinking products

[oblique notch]

Problem with physical buffers is, in most cases outside of the afore mentioned vehicle stations, production is constant. So if the output side of the buffer can't handle the amount the input side is, a buffer isn't going to change anything - in x time it will just be full anyways and machines will start to shut down.

Buffers are intended to smooth throughput. But with physical items in SF the only time your throughput fluctuates is with vehicles (which was again mentioned as the only time to need them). Every other situation (ie somewhere in belt lines) the flow is constant.

Even with vehicles, there is a built in "buffer" in the internal inventory of the station. And then only if your input sometimes exceeds (1560 + (1560/minutes between vehicles arriving) a minute do you actually need an external buffer. Anything less than that value and the output theoretically can handle it (and if your not using it that fast, a buffer again doesn't matter cause it will just fill up and then be full as your still not using it faster than it comes in) and again that's only if it fluctuates and sometimes is below 1560 a minute. (Or replace 1560 with whatever belts you have attached) - if it is never below the Max that can be extracted from station a buffer won't do anything

Fluid buffers have other problems. But you can make use of them if they are cleverly placed.

[frosty owl]

I'm not arguing how little use they have if one only considers smoothing out throughput. We agree on that ^^
What I'm pointing out is that there are situations in which buffering can be needed. Of course, one could sink, but that is if one have thought that there could be a buffering issue if they don't do so ^^ (the issues can happen on startup, or whenever the input-outputs fluctuate)

[median heath]

Just keep adding pumps until it works properly -- A quote from what it looks like everyone tries when getting to Coal power.

Pump description: literally talks about headlift and nothing else.
People who can't read: PUMPS PUSH MORE FLUID THROUGH THE PIPE RIGHT? LIKE OVERCAP IT BEYOND THE 300 MAXIMUM?

[twin cargo]

Sushi-pipes when

[stuck iron]

eh, its understandable for folks new to the game. The game does not give a great description about how fluids actually work in game.

[median heath]

? Pipes talking only about headlift is "understandable" that people think they do more than headlift???

Or are you taking the route of "It's completely understandable that some underappreciated, well-meaning dev legitimately wastes time writing descriptions because of how many people refuse to read"?

My heart goes out to that dev... 😭

[stuck iron]

I am sure some people read the docs about head lift and it doesn't quite click for them right away.

[median heath]

Docs are third-party though.

I'm not even talking about that.

[stuck iron]

sorry, I mean the one sentence in the codex.

[median heath]

"Can be attached to a Pipeline to apply Head Lift.
Maximum Head Lift: 20 meters.
(Allows fluids to be transported 20 meters upwards.)
Note: Has an in- and output direction.
Note: Head Lift does not stack, so space between Pumps is recommended."

What part of this makes people think they have any other function?

Even just the first line.
"Can be attached to a Pipeline to apply Head Lift."
Leaves no room for interpretation. Yet somehow people are thinking they are magical constructs that have anything to do with how much fluid is sent anywhere.

[stuck iron]

🤷 possibly confusing head lift with flow. We all know your reading comprehension is perfectly ok.

Not fully understanding how a system works so you just throw shit at the wall is a common thing 🙂 I see it often even in the field of software.

Also some people just aren't used to playing games with these types of systems, so I can see how a certain type of person might get confused that's all.

but also, yes RTFM.

I'm just more inclined to temper my outrage about it, especially when someone is asking a question in the channels meant to ask those questions in.

[median heath]

I am going to attribute it mostly to this tbh.
Because back in the day, games had manuals. We read them on the way home, and later we read them during the day 1 patch.
We were used to reading. Now, they don't, so people aren't.

[stuck iron]

shakes fist damn whippersnappers 😉

[median heath]

Indeed.

🙂

[stuck iron]

oh and FYI, built my first little sushi manifold the other day

I might consider doing it again lol

[median heath]

😮

When they add copy/paste splitter settings there will be a lot less of a barrier to them tbh.

[stuck iron]

Just a handful of assemblers and 2 manufacturers for a small battery factory. I just did not feel like running 6 belts

[median heath]

I never feel like running more than 1 anymore tbh.

😂

[stuck iron]

It is ridiculously pleasing (satisfying if you will) to look at.

[wintry aurora]

I'm kind of confused here, starting with this reactor blueprint: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=dYFO2ov79MznNw3tzurx , I decided to simplify the oil production part so I could look at how using or not using residual rubber/plastic changed things without the whole rest of it and to my surprise, the oil consumption is higher as I had expected it to be the same, https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=GSUPgF35Xp2WXNkLBylv I attempted to do lowest common denominator with the products and almost replicated the original one, but even then, the oil consumption is a bit higher, https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=zGzR77mlxoQynPqUxxBT Aside from the uranium waste not being in the other two, they're identical in settings, so, what's going on here?

I went and checked what I wanted on the main one, but still wondering what the discrepancy is all about, I totally expected it to be the same if I plugged in the same numbers.

[wind spade]

you posted three different links 🤔

like each one having completely different production

[wintry aurora]

Thing is that I plugged in the exact total outputs of the initial oil products.

[wind spade]

the tool can optimise differently based on byproducts needed 🤷‍♂️

[wintry aurora]

Although...... actually, I shoulda subtracted the stuff that was within the recycle loop, I think that's the mistake I made.

Yep, that was my mistake, way to overcomplicate XD

[stuck iron]

I personally need to break down the production line to much smaller chunks. That first one is information overload to my brain.

but also I have a lot of outpost factories that produce some of the parts I will eventually need for nuclear.

So I just supply those as existing inputs.

[wintry aurora]

I just kind of do it section by section visually and split it into aggregate or something. I've been doing mostly the rail infrastructure so far and some smaller sections.

Haven't started building the main nuke area yet.

[oblique notch]

So your talking about situation where you have turned on some machines, but not others, and you want those origin machines not get backed up yet? So younput a container instead of a sink?

They still will tho, given time. (Backup) All a container is then is storage. And even if you get the next section turned on before that container is full, time again renders this unnecessary.

The internal inventories of machines and the belts themselves perform this exact same function, just not as large.

Don't get me wrong. If someone wants to do it for aesthetic or in order to build up a supply (either for build gun use or to reduce the time it takes thr manifold after to saturate for example) I'm not saying don't. I'm just saying it doesn't actually fill any great purpose or actually do what the definition of a buffer is: smooth out item flow, because there is no fluctuation that occurs naturally (only from your influence of adding more items to some point, removing items, or adding new lines to the systeml

Buffer away If that's someone's desire. Just understand that mechically it does nothing

[stuck iron]

I am just in the planning myself. I am going around scaling up some of the factories that produce inputs I will need.

[wintry aurora]

I'm doing outposting myself, and using existing established outposts as well.

[stuck iron]

I am still not sure where I will build the nukes. I did just finish running my trainline down into the swamp area to make batteries and uranium is right there under that waterfall.

[wintry aurora]

I've already chosen a site, first thing I did since I needed to know where infrastructure was going. It'll be at this lake here (and whoops, left a few crates around)

[stuck iron]

Good area, that is where my aluminum factory is.

[wintry aurora]

Gonna do the aluminum there because the miner at the outpost a bit north can't support what I need.

[terse umbra]

Ive done some planning for a factory to make an encased industrial beam factory but i need to make the steel beams first.

Ive set my miners to 225 ore per minute for coal and iron (using base recipe) so it can distribute them equally for 5 foundries, but due to splitters being only able to split evenly would it be possible to split my load into 5?

[stuck iron]

!wikisearch manifold

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[median heath]

OnlyFolds.

[heady vine]

in terms of not wasting time, how bad is idea of building a factory and bring everything to it just to finish phase 3 in 100 minutes& (once everything working)

with this https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=NkXBHiZ4y793k8MW9Tq3

[stuck iron]

I personally just belted resources out of my central storage and setup a couple of temporary adhoc assembly lines and let it run while I was off doing other shit.

[river coral]

@twin cargo @vapid gorge Thank you so much!

[twin cargo]

If that wasn't totally clear I can elaborate 🙂

The batteries can charge at a rate of 100mwh/h (100mw sustained over 1h), but can discharge infinitely fast

I think of 3 batteries as being 2 "backup" fuel generators for an hour

or, did. I need to repurpose that into nuclear terms now.

[frosty owl]

The feeling of: it could break... But it works perfectly and I know why

[frosty owl]

Honestly, I get ticked off more when players ask for the QA site 😅
To each their own ||pet peeve||

[frosty owl]

Well, I know of some situations in which a buffer to smooth item flow can actually help, but they all revoke around quote delicate systems (eg: balancing the output of machines or groups of machines outputting in bursts, like pure iron, can take advantage of buffers, even if used jist for the first few inventory slots)... but that wasn't the point I was trying to make xD

I'm not referring to situations in which one purposefully leaves a part of the machines turned off, but such situations can easily occur depending on the dependencies one create inside the factories. Sayigg otherwise assumes everyone build while avoiding such situations (which I don't think is the case)

An example: your fuel generators run on fuel made from HOR. The byproduct resin is turned into rubber and the rubber is sent to a heat sinks production. Now, everything could be fine, but depending on setup the alu production could take so long to boot up (compared to the residual rubber, which comes from oil in just 2 steps) that the rubber could back up into the heat sinks assemblers. If the alu takes too long to get there, the HOR production could clog, causing a power failure. Of course, this isn't an extremely common scenario, but I've seen similar situations happen and then the user try identifying the issue may attempt some extra complicated solutions when one could... Just add a buffer for rubber ^^ (or for the HOR or whatever, the point is: CONSIDERING the use of buffers to solve the issue rather than other solutions which can be more complicated/cumbersome)
Hope I'm making sense, morning writing isn't my best 😅 😆

[vagrant kelp]

another angle to consider is that without in-depth analysis, it's often unclear whether a buffer will indeed fix the issue permanently, or just serve as a bandaid to buy some time

[frosty owl]

Ofc, but that's for the one having the issue to figure out (or the one helping xD)
My point is that solid buffers can fix some issues ^^ (without just delaying it for later)

[versed violet]

Add a smart splitter and sink the excess.
If the heatsink factory doesn't use it, there is no reason to keep it laying around.

[frosty owl]

That's one solution... that requires more space and more power than a buffer 🤷‍♂️
Btw, the example was just one for a system starting up, ideally the heatsink factory should always be in use, it just lacks aluminium due to [insert any of the many reasons why somebody's alu plant isn't outputting as they expected]

[twin cargo]

Buffers are useful for headlift injection exploits :p

[versed violet]

I personally prefer sink, as that is a bulletproof method of important things not stalling.
Also, if your alu delivery stops, then there will be never an 'extra' aluminium, or 'extra' machines to process the rubber backlog. This means the buffer will only ever fill but never go empty (unless you refinery dies), and eventually overflow.
Sink turns it into useful point, instead of having a box or five sitting around doing nothing.
If I recall correctly, awesome sink only draws power when grinding things down, so if it has nothing to process, it just chills there, consuming 0,1Kw to light up the standby diodes.

If you don't have space to add sink, you can bypass the overflow into factory output, and let the target area solve the issue 😉

[oblique notch]

I appreciate your willingness to try and say that such things aren't black and white, and usually I'm all for that opinion. Most things aren't black and white. but since this is a game mechanic we can indeed say its black and white.

If you look at things in a micro sense over a T (time) of a very small period, then it appears that a physical item buffer is useful. But SF isn't built like this. Time is not contained over small units but over infinite because resources do not run out. if your ratios are correct and all items are arriving via belts, then the system will run forever without interruption (assuming constant power)

Ah i hear you say already, assuming constant power. Yes yes. But the thing is, in your given scenario what happens once the alu arrives? You end up with one of 3 situations:

Input = Output on the storage container, Input > Output on the storage container, and Input < Output on the storage container. Because there is no mechanic to release in bursts once belts are hooked up to a container (ie its always a constant flow output = the belt speed being hooked up) then you have:

If I = O as T approaches infinity, then the amount that is currently in the storage container will stay constant and not change.
If I > O as T approaches infinity, then the storage container will fill up and the system will lock up anyways
if I < O as T approaches infinity, then the storage container will empty and be nothing more than a pass through.

If your I < 60 you could replace the whole storage container with a long snaking mk1 belt and achieve the same effect., assuming I <= O. But in any situation where, over time, your I > O the system will always lock up and a buffer wont stop it. It doesn't fix the inherent problem, it just delays it.

And as previously mentioned, vehicles do break this - because they arrive in bursts. And because vehicle pathing can produce a variable arrival time, buffers are useful here, because they smooth this variable travel time out - but again, as mentioned previously, it has to be an input > MxBeltSpd+(MxBeltSpd/minutes between vehicle arrival) at the highest point, but at the lowest point of items arriving it has to be I < transport input max (being the same equation as before) in order to be useful, because thats the only situation where the internal storage of the vehicle station wont be able to handle the current influx. If the value is always I > then its just going to take longer to lock up, thats all. But it will still lock up.

[drowsy gulch]

i thought this text channel was just like 200 x 20 but holy shiz

[median heath]

Vehicle pathing has a variable arrival time?
How?

Also the buffer is already there, the truck stop itself. (Unless talking trains, then yes, buffer, and variable arrival times for those as well depending on setup).

[oblique notch]

Yes that is what I was saying

And vehicles have a variable arriving time because of the collision avoidance system

They won't always have to stop and wait or go around at thr same places, which gives them a slight variance in their total travel time. It's probably no more than 10-15 seconds depending in how much traffic you have (I suppose a super busy system could endnup with a lot of issues or none at all lol

As for the station already having the buffer, yes. I said that. The only time you need an external buffer is if your vehicle input fluctuates above and below thr maximum output of thr station per minute (mk belt speed x2) + the items that would be removed between vehicle visits, in other words you sometimes have more items that arrive than can be removed in thr same perio6 (your I > O for the station) and sometimes it's less and In that situation an external buffer can be needed if the variance results in long periods of more before a long period of less, and the total more exceeds the internal storage.

That's not going to happen often, but it could potentially happen

[median heath]

If you do trucks properly there is no variance.

[oblique notch]

Yes, but there can be and I'm talking about abstract math here. And as the theoretical single use for a physical buffer to be added to your system beyond internal machine inventory

[thorn bane]

but satisfactory is finite
you cant just take t to infinity cause then you could beat the game with 1 iron/min

[oblique notch]

If done right of course you don't need the buffer because your input will be constant and once it's constantly, I to O will never change and so a buffer does nothing. But as a potential location a buffer would be needed in a belt network, it's the one place where you might have a variable I to O

[median heath]

"They can be" -- so we are doing math-meta based on people doing things intentionally wrong?

[oblique notch]

Um. You just disproved yourself. You can indeed do it so... yes. Time is infinite. See my original post: over infinite time a system will not stop as long as it is balanced. That's the point

[oblique notch]

Are you like only reading half my post?

The original discussion was do you need a physical item buffer in a belt system. And the only situation I can see based on the mechanics of the game, is an imperfect vehicle system. So... yes, based on the original question, I did the math for a single situation that could conceivable need a buffer, not that it was a viable one

[median heath]

At work so yes I am skimming. If the premise is people aren't doing things correctly, then fair points all around.
Confused why it turned into an entire blog post instead of just the sentence "when people do things incorrectly". 🤷‍♂️

But I will recuse myself given I skimmed.

[oblique notch]

Cause it's been ongoing for a few days heh

[median heath]

That's the confusing part 😂

[thorn bane]

so ive been wondering how i should setup my base so i have the least amount of lines on my bus
so i tried to simulate it by shuffling all factories i need and then calculating how many lines i would need between them
turns out 51 combinations is alot though so ive just been monte carloing it (ive tested 200 million setups so far)
but thats still quite insignificant to how many possibilities there are
that screenshot is what i have so far which means the HMF->Alu casing on the top side of the BUS and Supercomputer->Automated Wiring on the bottom side
you can see that the more common items tend to be in the middle but with this low sample size im not sure if thats just random
anyone have any ideas on how you could solve this analytically? (or faster)

i guess for a more general approach you could just make it square based, so it simulates normal factory planning but i just went with what i do which is a main bus

[silent roost]

So you have 2 rows of all your factories and your busses can go forwards & backwards? Makes sense for the common stuff to be in the middle then so it can go both ways more easily and be at the center of everything

[thorn bane]

ye thats what i was doing so far #screenshots message
im just wondering if theres a way to calculate the exact optimal solution, causing saving belts/time would be nice

[median heath]

ZyRa do be bussin.

🙃

[silent roost]

Anything with an output that only goes to the input of a single factory could be grouped together as a single unit, reducing the number of entities to deal with

[thorn bane]

ye i have that if the distance is 1 then i dont add a weight cause you can just connect the factories

thats why steel pipe is next to steel ingot i guess etc.

but for the more complex parts like thermal propulsion rockets etc. it becomes impossible to predict if its better/worse to place it somewhere

[wind spade]

so ive been wondering how i should setup my base so i have the least amount of lines on my bus
don't build a bus - 0 lanes 😛

[thorn bane]

well as i said you can just generalize it to solve any factory layout with the least space

[wind spade]

least space is unsolvable without trying everything 🤔

[thorn bane]

i feel like there has to be some heuristic thats better than random guessing

[wind spade]

I assume it would require some kind of modified pallet building algorithms

[median heath]

He has to build busses, otherwise he wouldn't be bussin.

[thorn bane]

but ye so far ive learned that building it in the natural progression (unlock iron plates -> unlock frames -> unlock HMF etc.) is pretty bad so maybe i should start building like one of those solutions
it just kinda sucks to have to plan to leave just enough space to fit multiple manifolds in a space

[wicked tinsel]

most of factories are directed graph so you probably can build it like this

curent tooling is rather poor at displaying it properly but its ultimately pretty true

[wind spade]

recycled rubber/plastic has entered chat

[wicked tinsel]

its like one case where there could be backward arrow

and its usually not even used like this

[wind spade]

There's like 4 cases iirc

[wicked tinsel]

rest is water or some other liquid iirc

aluminum has loop but its between two buildings etc

[wind spade]

Also self-feed with sulfuric acid

[wicked tinsel]

i think recycled aside, everything else is water backflow

but you could just connect the arrow to input and it would be same result

and for recycled, you dont actually need to make a loop there, most often

[oblique hollow]

Water / acid back, thats about it

Otherwise the only other thing that goes "back" is packaging loops

[wicked tinsel]

either way, visualizing it like this helps with factory design

since you have bunch of tiers and belts going forward only (except for those mentioned loops), sometimes skipping few tiers

as example

[pulsar idol]

What's the rate for having idk like 30 coal generators?

I remember isn't it 3 water extractors enough to put at least 8 of them correct?

[wicked tinsel]

8 generators is 3 extractors and 120 coal

so for 30 generators you need 11.25 extractors and 450 coal 🤷‍♂️

[pulsar idol]

Hmmm

[median heath]

Or 5 extractors at 225% 😉

[pulsar idol]

No

Thats if I run nuclear

[median heath]

?

[soft cedar]

I have 8 coal generators in manifold pattern, each 2 generators are powered with 1-shard water extractors at 150%, all powered by 2 MK2 miners producing 120 coal each.

This is the last generator in chain, I had put manually 100 coal in it - why is the coal dropping? Looks like is stabilised at 12-13 coal, but I worry that it will drop even further. Each generator uses up less than 30 coal, it should be stable at 100. The one before this stabilised at 14-15, the rest are 100. What am I missing?

This is on multiplayer, dedicated server.

[pearl garden]

Is there a way to measure the item speed on a conveyor(not the speed of conveyor itself) without going to the origin and calculating it by hand? Even a mod would be ok.

[soft scarab]

The coal dropped because the first 7 in your chain had to fill up to 100 coal. Wait a while longer and it should eventually fill up

[soft scarab]

Not in vanilla, don’t know about mods

[soft cedar]

hmm, alright, thanks for the clarification 🙂

[pearl garden]

thank you omega

[tough hound]

@thorn bane if you're running a monte carlo simulation, can I recommend pausing to analyze the topography of the solution space?

so there are going to be locally optimal configurations, could be advantageous to try to identify a handful of local optima and zeroing in from there?

alternatively, could you model it like a neural/convolution network?

[wind spade]

I'd use this design instead

(blue = path, red = block)

[full thunder]

The purpose of my question is to understand the logic behind the lack of reservation during the docking 😉

My theory being the switch of locomotives acts like an additional path signal of some sort, clearing the first half of the path reserved originally

[wind spade]

I assume stopped train just clears it's reservation 🤷‍♂️

(or docked train)

[full thunder]

yeah but in this case why in 4 the path is correctly reserved when the train leave the station, I even tried to launch a train from the other station to collide, it didn't happen

[pulsar idol]

say whats the rate for a 45 or 50 coal gens

[oblique hollow]

Why wouldnt it reserve correczly

[oblique hollow]

15 coal per generator

[full thunder]

It does, but if it was working the "regular way", the middle rail section couldn't be used by another train to enter the second station, there would be no step 3

[pulsar idol]

what about water extractors

[oblique hollow]

45m3/min each

An extractor does 120

[pulsar idol]

so 50 coal times it by 15 is 600 coal needed

and for the water i ned 2,250

[oblique hollow]

A lot of pipes and some nice belting

[pulsar idol]

so three mk2 miners in a pure coal node

is that good or i overclock them?

[oblique hollow]

Anything as long as you get 600 coal

Overclock, more miners, better miners, doesnt matter

[pulsar idol]

hmmm

[full thunder]

That's it. I wasn't timing the train I wanted to collide right. I managed to make 2 colliding.
So in the end the reservation end when the train stop at the station. Good to know for the few niche uses in bi directionnal setups 😊

[verbal elbow]

I dont know how to phrase it but :

Do you usually make one big iron ingot fabric and then redirect to were you need it for plates and rods
or do you make two iron ingot fabric near the plate and rods fabrics ?

I did the first option but i find its harder to change stuff later on.

[median heath]

If I'm understanding the question:
No, I do not.
But other people do.

[full thunder]

Both models have pros and cons. I do split my item production, all items made from raw ressources, like concrete, ingots etc. are made in large quantities while others are made the "pioneer way"

[soft scarab]

I make my ingots where they get used. When using pure alternate recipes, it’s easier to transport the ore than the ingots. I also like to plan my factories based upon what resources are available nearby and try to transport mostly only processed products long distances

[verbal elbow]

I think i'll keep doing like i feel it, im still new to the game even after 100h played.

[soft scarab]

Oh yeah only 100h keep playing around and see what you like / what works for you

[verbal elbow]

for now the distances i transport stuff are still really small for t4 conveyor is very fast
i got trains unlocked but didnt feel the need for them yet 😆

[soft scarab]

Yeah you’ll get there don’t worry 😉 but also don’t rush it, enjoy the journey

[verbal elbow]

I spend most of my time trying to make stuff look cool instead of making new factories.

[modern geyser]

Should I use alloy iron (7 ore for 13 ingots) and pure steel (2 iron ingots and 2 coal for 3 steel)

Or petroleum Coke steel ( 15 iron ore and petroleum Coke for 20 steel)

I am using all steel alternatives for iron stuff

[runic quail]

Same. Spent like 2 1/2 hours making an oil refining plant but tore it down because it looked like crap

[runic quail]

Then I spent 5 1/2 hours making it look awesome and more productive

[verbal elbow]

😭

[soft scarab]

Depends if you have / want to use more oil or more coal

[modern geyser]

Yeah I checked everything but WIP

[finite robin]

you need
1 pure miner
2 normal miners
4 impure miners
and
(amout of miners * 2) smelters
to get 120 iron ingots!
and did i get it right?

[modern geyser]

1 pure miner is 4 *tier smelters

And a normal is half that and a impure is half of a normal

[wind spade]

depends on which recipe you use, which mk of miner, which purity of node, etc.

[twin cargo]

Are you considering mixed use belts?

If it's a bidirectional bus, you can shove a sink at the terminal end next to the refeed. As long as it always flows at max rate you can smart split off without issue

[thorn bane]

i considered it but i dont like sinking items, id rather save power

[twin cargo]

This would save tons of bus space

[thorn bane]

idk i dont think it would save that much
at that scale im already close to 780 with alot of things

[wind spade]

you know what also saves tons of bus space? 🤔 not building a bus 😛

[median heath]

But then you're not bussin.

[wind spade]

which is a good thing 🤷‍♂️

[stuck iron]

So for a fist time phase 4 elevator completion, without doing anything too crazy, what production rate do people usually go for?

[thorn bane]

4:4:1:1 /min

[stuck iron]

Thanks!

[upbeat tide]

Soo, decided what to do with my non fissle water byproduct. Just gonna burn it in coal gens 🙂 im gonna make 1008 water as byproduct so it will work out quite well imo.

[median heath]

Shove it all into a mk1 pipe and throw like 14 pumps on it then complain about your coal gens not working in #old-questions-and-help 😉

[thorn bane]

thats 806.4 wet concrete that youre missing out on

[median heath]

Is it odd to anyone that Coal Gens have a static water input but the Coal/Coke/Compacted is the only variable?

[wind spade]

not really 🤔

[median heath]

Fair.

[upbeat tide]

Nope

[upbeat tide]

Have no need for wet concrete 🙂

Atm

[thorn bane]

well youre making encased plutonium cells

which needs concrete

[upbeat tide]

Nah using instant plutonium cells

[thorn bane]

ah

[upbeat tide]

You get a heck of alot more plutonium cells vua that alt

My build isnt for sinking but for actual usage

[median heath]

Fair.

Instant Cell and Fertile Ur are both better for actual usage last I checked.

[upbeat tide]

I cant use fertile

Making max uranium rods 🙂

[median heath]

Fair, but I think the overall MW was higher if you used it, I would need to check.

[upbeat tide]

Yes but you cant use fertile with max uranium rods due to fertile using uranium ore

[thorn bane]

fertile is less MW afaik

[median heath]

Aware.
But if you're burning Plut rods it sounds like your goal is MW maxing.
So thought it might have mattered.

[median heath]

Like I said I would need to check.
When I went over it all with Ven months ago the conclusion was "use Fertile if burning Plut rods"

[upbeat tide]

Nah not maxing. Im just not worried about waste 🙂

[median heath]

But I would need to look at the actual numbers.

[upbeat tide]

Well maxing is cool n all but still.

[median heath]

Oh you do you, was just remarking on those 2 being special to burning Plut vs. sinking it.

ZyRa was the one who talked me out of using Instant Cell, saved me an ass ton of aluminium.

[upbeat tide]

Im gonna use 600 alu ingots for this, out of my total of 12300

[thorn bane]

im getting 0.96TW with fertile (30.5 plutonium 22.9 uranium)
vs 1.1TW without (22.4 plutonium 50.4 uranium)

[median heath]

(Just verifying) -- still using Instant Cell?

[thorn bane]

yep

[median heath]

So then Fertile is... useless?

[thorn bane]

yep

[median heath]

Add that to the short, short list of "objectively bad" recipes.

[wind spade]

no recipe is useless 🤔

[thorn bane]

well its simpler and kinda makes sense if you see uranium as free since you wont need all power anyway

[median heath]

Objectively Bad.
Too late. On the list.

[wind spade]

the list is still subjective tho 😛

"subjective list of objectively bad recipes"

[median heath]

Give me the objectively good use for Fertile given the above information 🙃

[upbeat tide]

The issue is the uranium ore trade imo

[upbeat tide]

ONLY if you mod in more uranium nodes

[median heath]

Mods 🤢

[upbeat tide]

😉

[wind spade]

faster to produce

[median heath]

People really need to stop saying faster....

Production speed is only a factor of how many buildings you have.

[thorn bane]

doest use quartz

[median heath]

I'm going to say "can be fine if you're not going max nuke".

But if you're doing nuke without make nuke, why do nuke at all 😉

[thorn bane]

...............

[median heath]

[vapid gorge]

Wouldn't it be easier to just feed it back into the Sulfuric Acid prod? Self contained loop?

[upbeat tide]

Yes as its 1:1

But I really try to avoid those situations of looped byproduct esp as I cant sink non feetile material

[thorn bane]

closed loops (1:1) are a big nono with the fluid loss bug since they will just stop running completely

[upbeat tide]

I only need one normal coal node too which isnt a big ask

[vapid gorge]

Yeah fair, forgot about the buffer loss bit

[wind spade]

1000 non-fissile uranium:
normal recipe: ~64 buildings
fertile uranium: ~25 buildings

here is your advantage

[vapid gorge]

Lot lower power output though with fertile though right?

[median heath]

Yes.
Less Power but also takes less space.

[wind spade]

which is advantage for some 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Indeed.

[wind spade]

hence not "useless" or "objectively bad" (:

[vapid gorge]

Overclock everything! 😄

[median heath]

Funny how less space is less power, which is the opposite of overclocking things 😂

[upbeat tide]

Example of a fully built max normal recipe non fissle setup

[median heath]

Turbo Heavy Fuel is objectively bad, and you can't even argue that one.

[wind spade]

simpler

[median heath]

No.

[wind spade]

skips fuel step

[upbeat tide]

TBF > TF >>>> THF

[median heath]

I refuse to accept anything you say in defense of Turbo Heavy when both base Turbo and Turbo Blend exist in far, far superior states.

[upbeat tide]

Blend is superior for one reason. Drastic sulfur usage reduction

[vapid gorge]

I mean.. it IS simpler. Which is SOMETHING. But I think most people don't value that small boost to simplicity over the major efficiency loss

[median heath]

Blend is less sulfur less power, base is most power.

[wind spade]

some people may find it useful 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Heavy is shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

@wind spade some people find Cast Screw useful.

[thorn bane]

but thats like your opinion man

[wind spade]

yeah I'm fine with that

[vapid gorge]

Wait... why is cast screw bad now? Isn't it purely great over base?

[median heath]

Um... I can pull logs that say otherwise. 😂

You hit people on Cast Screw with the same consistency I say "Mods 🤢 " lmao

[wind spade]

steel screws are way better and screwless (except copper rotor) as well

[vapid gorge]

Ah yeah if you want to do that sure. But Cast is amazing when all you've got is Base and you stlil need screws

[magic shadow]

casted screw isn't bad, it's just there's better

[thorn bane]

or you dont have steel?

[vapid gorge]

Last couple maps I've done my best to hunt for Cast Screws really early to remove the whole rod step

[wind spade]

me not liking it and not recommending it doesn't mean it's objectively bad

[median heath]

It does mean you are not "fine with that" though 🙂

[wind spade]

I'm fine with people using it

I'm just telling them that there are better ways to do stuff

but if they even after that want to use it, that's their choice

[upbeat tide]

Raw oil usage for a supply of 2400 turbo fuel

TF with diluted fuel > 1080
THF > 2250
TBF > 1800

Interesting imo

[thorn bane]

thats a bad metric and you should feel bad for using it

[vapid gorge]

It depends though how valuable oil is to you though right?

[upbeat tide]

And for sulfur

TF > 1920
TBF > 1200
THF > 2400

[thorn bane]

well kinda it just doesnt make sence to look at resources 1 by 1

theres a reason we use weighted resources literally everywhere

[upbeat tide]

Yup

[thorn bane]

you say
TBF 44 sulfur 48 oil total 82
TF 16 coal 70 sulfur 23 oil total 109
THF 20 coal 88 sulfur 48 oil total 156

thats like asking whats the most wire you can make out of 1 copper node
answer infinite cause iron wire
that logic just doesnt make sense

[upbeat tide]

Your comparing a common resource to a much less common one.

Such as I chose TBF souly on the sulfur use, as sulfur is the deciding factor due to scarcity.

[thorn bane]

well by that logic you would just do normal fuel to not waste sulfur

its just bad logic
you weigh them based on how common they are and then sum them up

[glacial sonnet]

If u dont have the Blender THF might be the one 🤔

[upbeat tide]

Your not understanding me at all. Just because I chose based on sulfur use does not equal better to not use it at all.

[thorn bane]

but that means that you are not chosing it based on sulfur otherwise you would chose the one that doesnt use sulfur

[twin cargo]

what are you using the sulfur for instead?

[upbeat tide]

Nuclear, plutonium, batteries, small amount for munitions

[median heath]

So, so many things.

[thorn bane]

well if youre doing nuclear youre not doing fuel anymore

its really just batteries -> supercomputers/drones/magnetic thingies for me

[median heath]

Gotta get that 1k Batteries per minute.

[thorn bane]

its also that you need to find new nodes more if one of the resources is used alot
finding 6000 sulfur/min takes alot of time to pull to 1 location

where 3375 oil is literally just 1 patch (the required oil if you use def. TF)

[upbeat tide]

Im using three oil patches so far.

1. Islands > TF
2. Middle map lake near titan forest > petro coke
3. Blue crater > plastic, rubber, petro coke

And all the coke is for my alu plant.

[vapid gorge]

Says you. I’m probably going to need 700GW XD

[frosty owl]

My opinion on it is closer to (small difference but important) "If you're willing to use plutonium power, fertile cuts down on lots of costs for the same MW" (no mention of max power) ^^
The max power IS a bit less (way more pluto power, but so much little uranium power the total is still less), but the resource savings can be quite interesting depending on production plan

[frosty owl]

Sounds like you'll just have to use a bit of plutonium ^^

Oh, yet another post about smart splitters "eating items"... Nice...

Could anyone explain how do some people get to the conclusion that "any undefined" includes "overflow" when it and the specified items are the only things it doesn't include? 🤦‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

Noooooo

[hardy plaza]

How much does a fuel generator make with normal fuel?

Little question cause in a bit db and haveng played for a while

[oblique hollow]

They always make 150 MW

Different fuel type changes only how fast the fuel burns

[hardy plaza]

Ok

Thx

[tropic hawk]

When you can hear the game, and hear you interacting with it, but the Respawn_sequence.bat is still loading...

[wicked tinsel]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6081f0adaa0ba107e325a371

[rancid pecan]

short question i have about 800 uranium per min to transport over about 2km should i use drones or a train (i oped for a drone since all the other ress for my power plant are in reach for an conveyor ) my problem is just that i cant find how much a drone can trans port per min (ik the number changer per distance)

[wind spade]

if you know that it changes with distance, then what do you expect us to say? 🤔

you've answered your own question there - it varies

you can always just use more drones though, if you need more throughput

same as you can use more trains or longer trains

the question is more about what kind of transport you want to build:

• trains use power, need tracks, but those tracks can also carry power and can be used by other trains as well
• drones use batteries, don't need tracks

[rancid pecan]

i mean how fast is a drone i dont find the speed only the duration (of the start and landing) on the wiki

[wind spade]

have you even looked?

[rancid pecan]

i really should go to sleep i only searched thru the texts on the left

sorry to have bothered you

[wind spade]

you're not bothering 🙂

but yeah, any transport method is fine, just pick one that suits you

throughput can always be increased and speed is pretty much irrelevant

[cedar mica]

When it comes to drones, there is 2 speeds. Take off and cruising speed. For take off to not be a main factor, you need to not place high buildings next to the platform. The drone will go to the top of the highest building around it, then change to cruising speed. Reverse when landing

[rancid pecan]

i wanted to know the speed so i can calulate my thruput

[thorn bane]

its impossible to calculate
just try it

[wind spade]

should be the other way - build enough drones to meet your desired throughput

[rancid pecan]

is it? i mean i know the distance and with the speed i can calculate the time per trip and i also know how much one trip transports so i can calculate the ress per min

[wind spade]

you don't know the distance and the speed changes based on how the drone flies

distance isn't just distance between two ports, it's also the path the drone takes

[thorn bane]

drones fly vertically over landscape so unless you have a model of that particular landscape and a formula do adjust the speed for that its impossible

i mean a rough estimate is probably fine but then again just trying it takes no time

[rancid pecan]

i figured that so id add 500m in flight length and a min in duration the worst that can happen is that to much is shiped

[wind spade]

why not just build the drone and see if it's enough

[cedar mica]

The drone does the work for you, just let it fly a few times

[wind spade]

and keep adding drones until it is enough

[rancid pecan]

but wouldnt i need to build a new port for every new drone test so i would probably run out of space

[wind spade]

you can't run out of space in this game

it's impossible

[cedar mica]

You already have 2 ports, just to get it working

[thorn bane]

you just build 1 and see the throughput
if its 200 you build 4
if its 400 you build 2

[cedar mica]

Think cross map is something like 200 a minute, throughput. Depending on how you place the drone ports. Then one on each side, should be 400/m

[rancid pecan]

i´ll be back in a min as soon as i am done with the testing and thanks

[rancid pecan]

but wouldnt i need mor ports for more drones

[cedar mica]

Each port can have 1 drone. So you can start with a drone on each port

Thats double the throughput, right of the bat

[fresh crest]

Trains

[wind spade]

?

[fresh crest]

Trains - best transportation

Forget drones, forget trucks, trains and tractors

[oblique hollow]

Nope lol

[median heath]

Meh.

[thorn bane]

Belts

[wind spade]

all transport methods are fine

[median heath]

In terms of speed from point to point - hypercannon.

[wind spade]

each one has their own benefits and drawbacks

[oblique hollow]

Trucks outclass trains when it comes to efficiency actually

If they work right that is

[wind spade]

which efficiency? power?

[fresh crest]

Yes, but they take recources

[oblique hollow]

Power and partially transport

[median heath]

Power and throughput technically.

[oblique hollow]

And? Power = resources

[fresh crest]

Yes, but I like to use power

[median heath]

Resources are also infinite. Tbf.

[wind spade]

doesn't one train with several freight cars outclass several trucks?

[fresh crest]

Instead of fule

Yes

[median heath]

Build multiple stops.

[oblique hollow]

One truck outclasses a train with 2 freight cars

[wind spade]

even then

[fresh crest]

Yes, but train still better

[median heath]

Better is subjective.

[thorn bane]

its super easy to add multiple trains though

[fresh crest]

Faster, and you can use longer trains

[oblique hollow]

Trucks too. Place it down and load the path. Done

[median heath]

What do you mean by "faster"?

[wind spade]

but not a train with 4 freight cars, right?

[fresh crest]

Faster speed

[oblique hollow]

Well, 2 trucks there you go

[wind spade]

speed is irrelevant

[median heath]

Again, build another stop.

[median heath]

How is this relevant?

[wind spade]

for?

[median heath]

The truck.

[fresh crest]

Again, add more trains

[oblique hollow]

Again, add more trucks

[rancid pecan]

so guys i am back i have build the drone and it says it does 3,2 stacks per min i am currently testing if that number is correct

[fresh crest]

You need to record a path for it

[wind spade]

how does more stops help with ouclassing trains

[oblique hollow]

Yeah and? Just save the path

[fresh crest]

But you need to drive it by yourself

[median heath]

Because you can unload into multiple stops.
Which means multiple actual 1560 outputs.
Which trains cannot reach.

[wind spade]

but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying one train with 4 cars use less power than equal amount of trucks and stations

[median heath]

This is not even close to true.

[oblique hollow]

I did the math

[wind spade]

truck's fuel is considered as power as well

[oblique hollow]

Truck wins by far

[median heath]

I'm aware.

[oblique hollow]

I did the fuel and power math

[fresh crest]

Why not use both

[oblique hollow]

Thats more like it

[fresh crest]

[median heath]

Truck route needs to have over 24 active vehicles on it before a train even comes close to competing in terms of MW.

[thorn bane]

lul wat

[median heath]

Yes.

[oblique hollow]

Aye. 3 fuel for 750 m

[fresh crest]

Yes

Both trains and trucks

[oblique hollow]

The truck is simply faster and more power efficient up to like..... 1.5 km or so

[fresh crest]

But do you know what is the best transport

[median heath]

Trains are a trade of a massive increase in space and MW usage for "simplicity" @thorn bane

[thorn bane]

theres no way

[oblique hollow]

Gues i have to dig up the math..

[fresh crest]

Tractor

[wind spade]

I'll get back to this once I finish checking the math, but I don't think it's that way

[fresh crest]

Forget trucks and trains. Back to tractors

[oblique hollow]

#math-and-meta message

Lemme get the formula

Wait nvm its above that

[thorn bane]

" 24 active vehicles on it before a train even comes close to competing in terms of MW."
again
no fucking way

[fresh crest]

I got it now

You need to use more trains on one route

[median heath]

Train station is 50 MW continuous.
You need 2.
Platform will be 50 MW for 27.08s, you need 4.

Compared to Truck Stop, 20 MW for a max of 24s. You need 2.

Now you're just comparing Fuel MW for truck route time vs. continual MW drawn by train and keep adding more trucks until you get close to trains being competitive.

[thorn bane]

you know vehicles take fuel right?

[median heath]

"NOW YOU'RE JUST COMPARING FUEL MW FOR TRUCK ROUTE TIME"

[fresh crest]

Thats why you need trains

[median heath]

I really don't.

[thorn bane]

so youre saying you did the math and its 24x?
ye no way

[fresh crest]

More trains

[wicked tinsel]

tbh, the fact that i dont need to think about fuel logistics makes trains superior in most cases

[fresh crest]

ADD MORE TRAINS ON THE SAME TRACK

[median heath]

McGalleon did the maths.

[wicked tinsel]

wish the train station wasnt disabled while its unloading

but i consider this a bug that might be fixed some day

[median heath]

This is the point. The tradeoff for trains is simplicity.

[wicked tinsel]

also trucks are still extremely glichy and pain in ass to use

they do look cool tho

[median heath]

Mine aren't. 🤷‍♂️

[wicked tinsel]

in particular, it seem the truck bounding box is wrong

[median heath]

I have routes that use jump pads to launch trucks upward and they still work fine 🤷‍♂️

[wicked tinsel]

they cant pass each other properly somehow

[fresh crest]

And you will get much more throughput than trucks

[thorn bane]

what vehicle and what fuel?

[wicked tinsel]

adding trains doesnt increase throughput massively usually

[median heath]

Truck and Orange.

[wicked tinsel]

as each train = 50s+ of busted station

and that is absolutely bonkers

[median heath]

Yeah, more trains isn't really the right answer.

[oblique hollow]

Look at the damn graph

[median heath]

Mixed logistics is best imo.
Trucks, Trains, and Drones all working in concert.

[oblique hollow]

Aye

[fresh crest]

Tractor

[oblique hollow]

Yes tractors suck

[wicked tinsel]

trucks have a lot of disadvantages unfortunately

mostly due to extremely poor implementation

[fresh crest]

Use tractor

[oblique hollow]

Tractor has hitbox issues

It literally stops itself

[fresh crest]

It works perfectly for me

[wicked tinsel]

not following track properly, not passing properly, https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/61d8c8dd831c85205236830e crashing into station due to bad placement, randomly stopping, randomly falling out of track

[median heath]

Clarification: When I say Truck I usually mean Explorer.

[wicked tinsel]

randomly rolling over

[fresh crest]

Explorer cannot be better than train

[median heath]

Until Explorers get nerfed they are the best Truck route option.

[wicked tinsel]

also track loading/saving doesnt work for trucks on multiplayer

[median heath]

You're meme-ing at this point so I will just let it go.

[wicked tinsel]

but i guess that was to be expected

explorers are best vehicle currently, unless you are going for visual

[fresh crest]

No, I say it cannot be better than trains

[wicked tinsel]

they are fast and have decent cargo space

[median heath]

It 100% can but we had this debate already, scroll up.

[fresh crest]

Must get their cargo nerfed

[median heath]

Agreed they need a nerf.

[wicked tinsel]

objectively, entire vehicle category needs a rebalancing

its just poorly planned

[median heath]

Which is probably in the works tbh.

[oblique hollow]

To be fair devs did say the truck physics engine was garbo

And will get replaced

[wicked tinsel]

95% of problems isnt really due to physics engine

[upbeat tide]

Hatent touched trucks in ages

[wicked tinsel]

stuff like that yellow node purging nodes around station is just 100% bad implementation on coffee side

stuff like trucks failing to pass each other too

[oblique hollow]

Node size in general

Factory cart automation is hell

Due to the puny size

[median heath]

Factory Cart on dirt is FUN.

[oblique hollow]

Another part for "truck physics" is the stop and go

[wicked tinsel]

at very least, i wish they would allow train stations to continue loading/unloading

this is 500% shit mechanic that just need to go asap

and possibly, allow multiple stations with automatic balancing too

[upbeat tide]

If you dont have a factory kart racetrack your not doing it right

[median heath]

Ehhhh. You're making trains a bit too powerful now imo.

[wicked tinsel]

given how much pain it is to set them up, no, not really

[oblique hollow]

I feep like copying from trucks could work. A set transfer speed

[upbeat tide]

Imo trains are fine atm

[oblique hollow]

Since those CAN do both at once

Load / unload belt / truck at once

So the locking seems a bit unneeded

[wicked tinsel]

there is no technical limitations anywhere, they are just bullshitting through the poor design choice

[oblique hollow]

possibly to nerf trains

[median heath]

They need to have drawbacks though.

Otherwise you live in a "trains can do all" world.
Which isn't balance.

Right now the main drawback is the lockout timer.

[wicked tinsel]

trains are pain in ass to setup, they are massive af, they cant do curves properly, they cant share track properly

there is a lot of drawbacks, lockout isnt one

[oblique hollow]

Tbh the best train nerf is better trucks

[wicked tinsel]

pretty much

[median heath]

"Can't share track properly"?

[wicked tinsel]

just trucks need to be better to compensate for lockout removal

[oblique hollow]

They already transport more than trains / faster

For their size

[wicked tinsel]

trains have minimal clearance equal to spacing of signals, but you can only put signals at end of segments

so there is usually a lot of space between trains, you cant just add more trains usually

[median heath]

Give me smart-loading on trucks and you can do whatever you want to with trains.

[wicked tinsel]

well, obviously

[oblique hollow]

They just need solid driving and then the truck can easily outclass a train

For a given distance

[median heath]

My trucks drive just fine 🙃

[wicked tinsel]

no clue why smart loading isnt on trucks, coffee strain consistently inconsistent

[oblique hollow]

Consistency

[wicked tinsel]

we got a bunch of trucks on our nuclear facility

and they are definitely not driivng just fine

[median heath]

I believe trains were the test to see if they could actually do it.
Now that they know it works, I expect it for trucks in the next update.

[wicked tinsel]

also we had one just disappear this week 😄

fucking gone completely

fixing the yellow node would be big improvement to current truck state

and doing something about passing too

or maybe recoding should actually show entire bounding box instead of those pointless arrows that show nothing

[wind spade]

can a truck reach 1560/min throughput? (single truck, two stations)

[wicked tinsel]

probably

i mean, thats just 3 stacks of wire, you can do it easily

[wind spade]

basically - is there a loading/unloading delay like with trains?

[wicked tinsel]

no and yes

no, there is no delay, yes, there is a fixed stack based transfer rate

it transfers 120 stacks per minute iirc

or something of this rate

[median heath]

Yes.

100% yes.
Only "no" would be if you made the route too long. (In which case add +1 truck)
Otherwise yes.

[wind spade]

yeah in ideal case

[median heath]

There is no lockout animation. Items hit the belt the moment the truck enters the stop hitbox.

[wicked tinsel]

^

[median heath]

So yes, they can do 1560.
Which a single train car cannot.

[wind spade]

single freight car*

[oblique hollow]

That transfer rate is technically better than the train's

[wicked tinsel]

yeah, its much better

just shows how shit trains are in current state

[oblique hollow]

Sooo if trains simply had..... 60/minute but no lock out it would probably result in the same with docking time

[wicked tinsel]

for record, train has 32 slots and take 25 seconds to unload

so its only 76.8 stacks per minute

vs 120 on truck

AND it cant unload at 1560 either

[oblique hollow]

So a set speed of 80/min could work

[median heath]

They take 27.08s to unload.

[wicked tinsel]

took 25s from wiki

[median heath]

Wiki is wrong.

[wicked tinsel]

realistically its much slower, probably 35-40s

since they also need to enter the station, slow down super slowly, then leave it

even 50s for train load wouldnt be surprising

and having longer trains make this worse since they crawl through

[thorn bane]

wiki is 27.08

[wicked tinsel]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Freight_Platform

[oblique hollow]

Not to mention freight weight affects transport speed massively now

[median heath]

Wiki is right and wrong at the same time.

[wicked tinsel]

tldr: trains kinda sux

there is also bunch of random problems that arent that visible

for example, trains slow down before path signals for no reason

hopefully some of those issues will get addressed in U6

[oblique hollow]

Before red or green ones

[bronze aspen]

what fuels do you folks use for trucks?

[oblique hollow]

Anything

[bronze aspen]

I've only played with them once and default to trains, but I want to try them this time

do you run fuel to all truck stops, or just one on the route?

[stuck iron]

There is a reason they slow down before path signals.

[oblique hollow]

One is enough technically, unless you have really long routes

[stuck iron]

If you are traveling along a long of series of blocks it will start to look ahead for a path signal and hit the breaks so it can stop in time if it cannot reserve a route but it only tries to reserve that route in the block right before said path signal.

I actually have some intersections to fix, you need a longer block right before a path signal. I will admit it is annoying.

[oblique hollow]

Aka have long approach blocks for path signals

[stuck iron]

Yup, kind of annoying if you want to build a few blocks for trains to queue

[wicked tinsel]

path signals are always red

they dont actually stop, just slow down for no reason

even if there are no other trains anywhere nearby

annoying feature

[stuck iron]

But there is a reason.

And you can build around it by putting a long block before the path but yes it is annoying

[oblique hollow]

due to the approval process i guess. up until the train is in the block leading to the path signal, it doesnt ask for approval

[wind spade]

anyone knows what's the formula for acceleration of train depending on number of carriages? (if there's any?)

[oblique hollow]

like.... gravity?

there definitely is one, buuuut it would take some time to remath it

[wind spade]

no, like 0 to max speed

flat track, single engine

[oblique hollow]

i could try with the debug mode

[thorn bane]

doesnt that also depends on the weigth of the freight now?

[oblique hollow]

i already did the math for weight and stuff

[oblique hollow]

yep

ill just make tests with 100 tons each

[stuck iron]

How is weight calculated? Dumb number of slots taken up or do diffent items have different weights?

[oblique hollow]

1.75 tons * number of full stacks

that + 14 and + 30 = 100 tons

the 1.75 is purely item weight

14 is:
if you load one item, the container appears

aka the container weighs 14 tons

and the empty carriage is 30 t

Carriage: 30 t
Container: 14 t
Cargo: 56 t

[stuck iron]

So a container full of leaves weighs as much as a container full of iron ingots 🙂

[oblique hollow]

yes

its purely stack size that counts

so that also means: a container full of coffee cups weighs as much as one full of iron

[stuck iron]

Ya, I mean it makes sense to not overcomplicate the simulation

[oblique hollow]

and as for the acceleration @wind spade
presumably pull force of the loc / total weight

so 2000 kN / weight in tons

[wind spade]

🤔

any idea how does that transfer to power used?

or is it 115 MW while accelerating and then some smaller number constantly?

[oblique hollow]

entirely depends on amount of kN needed i think

so a train thats actively moving doesnt need 2000 kN to keep at 120 km/h on a flat track

buuuuut there IS drag

dont ask HOW drag is calculated, presumably some constant * velocity

not to mention the rolling force

a nightmare

[wind spade]

I guess average consumption it is then? 🤔

to use in calculations

[oblique hollow]

ill hop ingame and try to see if it simply is (current force used / 2000)*110 MW

[wind spade]

115 while accelerating, X when moving, 0 when deccelerating? 🤔

[oblique hollow]

decelleration is -33

[wind spade]

I guess not 0

[oblique hollow]

regenerative braking

it produces +8 MW net

[wind spade]

powering a factory by sending trains down the hill 🤔

[oblique hollow]

aye

you can charge storages with it

but it takes a long and heavy train

aaaaaand its not really enough for anything

[stuck iron]

but then the train needs to go back up hill

[wicked tinsel]

i wish train engines werent so damn weak

they should pull like 6 wagons at least

[oblique hollow]

they do

[wicked tinsel]

and brake much faster so they can maintain better speed

[oblique hollow]

but slope is important

[wind spade]

friend deconstructs it down there and puts items to container that moves it back up to you

[stuck iron]

did you just invent prepeptual motion!?

[oblique hollow]

a slope of 30° is enough to reduce the train force effectivly by half

since, you know, geometry/trigonometry

[thorn bane]

hm how do i find the average of my trains consumption?

[oblique hollow]

i assumed some flat rate of... what was it....

55 MW

probably lower tho

[wicked tinsel]

btw, there is one more mess with tracks that is often overlooked

for some reason, they transfer power wirelessly to nearby tracks

[oblique hollow]

thats actually an overlap of hitboxes

its not truly wireless

[wicked tinsel]

nah, its wireless technically

i mean, they dont touch whatsoever

[oblique hollow]

even if they appear to not touch

it is an overlap of collision zones or whatever

[wicked tinsel]

it happens on tracks where trains can pass each other without issues tho

might be just badly computed bounding box tho

still, its just bad, why is it even computed like this

[oblique hollow]

possibly. is that an issue tho?

wanna seperate power networks

[wicked tinsel]

effectively makes power separation for train networks impossible

[wind spade]

*not easy

[oblique hollow]

i mean once you cross the tracks it is kinda unavoidable

and otherwise: keep distance

its not that close actually

one rail width distance should seperate them electrically

the worst offenders to this are curved rails since they extend quite far out with their "induction zone" if you will

[thorn bane]

is there a way to get a more accurate fuel per min number? i wanna do some math

[oblique hollow]

uh no

[wicked tinsel]

you can save the track and then it lists fuel usage

but not sure what happens with the last fuel canister

if its just thrown away or adds up slowly

[oblique hollow]

its hidden from view. canisters in the decimal range are simply once every x rounds

[thorn bane]

but only fuel per trip not per minute

[wicked tinsel]

there is trip length too iirc

[thorn bane]

yes but i dont know the average speed

[wicked tinsel]

cant be helped then i guess 😦

[stuck iron]

if the route shows fuel used for the entire route just divide by fuel per minute?

to get minutes per route

[wicked tinsel]

the problem is it rounds it to integer

[thorn bane]

i want to know the fuel per minute but accurate and not rounded to 3

[wicked tinsel]

so you dont know if its 20 fuel or 20.9

[stuck iron]

ya but does it really need to be that accurate?

[thorn bane]

for math yes

[stuck iron]

does it round down or up?

[thorn bane]

dont know but everything else i know of just rounds

[rancid pecan]

id guess it is exactly 3 since for every other number i see in such interfaces it always has one decimal

[stuck iron]

ya, it would make sense that they just round up a unit. That would give some buffer if the trucks go crazy.

Trying to calcuate fuel used down to a decimal place seems completely unneeded.

[rancid pecan]

yeah and if you use one decimal to calculate then why not display it too

[thorn bane]

alright @oblique hollow @median heath
i build a test setup for trains vs trucks
the train did 1274/min and used 60MW on average
the truck did ~2000/min used 3 packaged fuel/min and 9MW on average
so thats 0.72/min fuel for power for the truck station
and 4.8/min for the trains
packaged fuel costs more than fuel though (22.5 instead of 16.875)
so in total its 1.8 oil/min for the train
and 1.11 oil/min for the truck if you adjust for the throughput (* 1274/2000)
so yes trucks use less resources but its nowhere close to what your guys math said

[oblique hollow]

did you also take into account the constant power demand of the train station and such

also wth is that, thats nowhere near comparable

thats one loc with nothing else

[thorn bane]

it was on a seperate power line set to 60MW and i monitored the power storage which was constant

[oblique hollow]

thats not a fair test

i did one on the assumption of equal throughput

[wicked tinsel]

the problem is that train uses more power when its full

[oblique hollow]

so its 2 carriages minimum

[wicked tinsel]

dump some stuff into the wagon

[thorn bane]

its equal because i adjusted for it (* 1274/2000)

[thorn bane]

the train was carring 1274 limestone/min

[oblique hollow]

why is it only 60 MW average

is that the loc only?

[thorn bane]

idk but thats the number
#math-and-meta message

thats the whole setup on a seperate grid

[wicked tinsel]

🤔

[oblique hollow]

is the wiki power outdated or what

[thorn bane]

you can see the fuel gen and the power connection in the screenshot

[wicked tinsel]

wiki might be outdated indeed

[oblique hollow]

50 MW train station (constant) plus variable power by the loc plus 27.08 secoonds of 100 MW (2 * 50)

divided by round time

[thorn bane]

its not constant though its only while docking

same as the truck station

[oblique hollow]

the train station itself should be constant

only the freight platform should be variable

[wicked tinsel]

🤔

this is clearly wrong since you dont have 100mw line anywhere

[thorn bane]

maybe they changed it in U5 🤷

[oblique hollow]

27.08 * 50

• 27.08 * 50

2 times docking per round

its the same as 27.08 * 100

[wicked tinsel]

#math-and-meta message his graph looks like this, he has two stations attached

so it should have constant consumption of 100mw and only add on top of it

[oblique hollow]

ugh they really changed it i think

[wicked tinsel]

but looking at it, he has like 20 mw max

[thorn bane]

start is when it starts docking jumping from ~28 to 75

[oblique hollow]

yuuuup they changed the power usage of stations

its now only 50 MW when something is docked

time to edit the wiki

[wind spade]

stations don't use power anymore? (when no train in them?)

[wicked tinsel]

snut not doing his job again 😄

[thorn bane]

yep similar to truck stations

hm i wonder if you can calculate the docking time from that

[oblique hollow]

um..... i cant get the train station to use power at all

its only the freight platforms

soooo that seems like a bug

the only thing with constant power demand is the train, with 25 MW in idle

soooo the station is borked

[wicked tinsel]

or was changed 🤷‍♂️

snut needs to do his job

[oblique hollow]

like? announce changes?

either way its not reflected ingame

[wicked tinsel]

yeah

track and announce such changes

[oblique hollow]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/61eafa4d831c8520523692c5

[wicked tinsel]

to be fair, its a good change

absolutely no reason why station should burn 50mw constantly

[oblique hollow]

balance for trains of course

[median heath]

^

[thorn bane]

still pretty insane how efficient both are though
1 oil/min to transport ~1200/min over ~750m

and thats with fuel which isnt even that great

[wicked tinsel]

you are comparing it with belts that are completely free tho

[oblique hollow]

yes thats why you should abandon trains

and only belt now

[median heath]

🍝

[rancid pecan]

but trains look way cooler then cars or converyors

[oblique hollow]

not my problem

[rancid pecan]

and another big point i should say is that if you build a factory wich uses all ress you probably would rather use trains since you need the oil for plastic etc

[twin cargo]

Meh, the 2 million entity cap gets impacted by giant belt messes faster than scaling up with tracks

Not that most people will hit it

[oblique hollow]

oooor let trucks drive on the dirty ground

way less entities

[upbeat tide]

I thought that mass trains would hit it faster if you buffer alot.

Happened to me when I had about 70 trains back in U3

[median heath]

People who do trucks and refuse to let them ever touch dirt bother me.

[upbeat tide]

Anyway my world has not hit the entinty limit yet and its 99% beltwork only

Few days old

[twin cargo]

2 million is a couple entities

[median heath]

The other 1% is pipes. 😏

[rancid pecan]

yes its like building a train without tracks like why would someone do this

[median heath]

🤷‍♂️

[upbeat tide]

Heh prob not anymore :D. Last I checked SCIM it claimed about 150km of pipes. Now...dont wanna know

[untold wave]

how did you get an overview like that?

[oblique hollow]

the interactive map website

[untold wave]

if I just search interactive map will it show up

[oblique hollow]

yea

satisfactory interactive map

[thorn bane]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map

[median heath]

Was going to say you might have to put the game name. Lol.
Just "interactive map" is a broad search.

[stuck iron]

how many objects are you up to?

[upbeat tide]

No idea. Tbh

Will check after work today

[tall kestrel]

maybe you guys can help me out:
does this flow chart work? I mean will this system overflow or not? (machines always running at full power)
asking here because its math here xD another factory is overflowing with a similar flow chart so I want to make sure

[upbeat tide]

I am not even sure where to find that info

[thorn bane]

i personally dont trust valves but ye should ™️ work

[oblique hollow]

whats the 270,7

[tall kestrel]

its the return of electrode aluminia scrap

[upbeat tide]

I can show you my own setup for alu

[oblique hollow]

i mean i think it could work

[tall kestrel]

if you solved that problem in a better way sure

[thorn bane]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nN7lceueOQClan9NDvEnfBso8sHd1DBlG-qDaMXUrY8/edit

[upbeat tide]

Thats my solution

My solution is balanced for a 600 a min bauxite input

[tall kestrel]

but thats almost the same as mine...isnt it?

[tall kestrel]

mine has 700 so its similar

[upbeat tide]

Id drop to 600. Its cleaner on the machinery ratios. No OC/UC needed

But as always u do u 🙂

[thorn bane]

not a huge fan of 600/min pipes though

[upbeat tide]

Im talking ore not pipes

[stuck iron]

If you go to https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map, and then upload your save, then immediately have it save a copy to your Desktop, the progress bar will tell you how many objects are in the save.

[upbeat tide]

Oh the total water is 600 yes but it never maxes the pipes

[thorn bane]

well with sloppy alumina bauxite=water

and in your picture that bottom pipe has 600/min

[tall kestrel]

I could also limit the input pipe to 427 to be clean but in the last factory i calculated this system went into overflow for now reason

[upbeat tide]

Yes but it never fully reaches that total because

420 water > < 180 water

[thorn bane]

oh youre right nvm

[upbeat tide]

I do the same solution for the alumnia. It is actually 720 total splution but in two pipes per set

[thorn bane]

but ye anyway as i said i dont trust valves
just build a VIP (pictures in the guide i linked)

[tall kestrel]

okay ill try that thing...maybe that solves the problem

[thorn bane]

hm you sure that works? im getting 453062 objects on a world that someone send me thats close to the object limit

[oblique hollow]

im sure the calc only counts """"""Objects""""""""

not unreal objects

[upbeat tide]

531k objects

[stuck iron]

I am not, this was suggested in another channel by @vague tangle

[upbeat tide]

Yea not believing that either

[stuck iron]

Testies, testies, 1,2,3

[upbeat tide]

yea no way thats just 531k objects

[stuck iron]

hold on, I'm counting.

[upbeat tide]

That giant platform will sooner or later house 252 nuke reactors

Surprised it fit without death wall issues

[stuck iron]

later than sooner I'd imagine.

[heady vine]

what are these blue dots on every long straight line?

[upbeat tide]

Ooh, think those are power cables

[vapid gorge]

Ok so I recently found out that valves stop flow until the pipe behind it is full .
This may have been the reason my old bauxite plant was stuttering as I was feeding it back into the sloppy loop.

Have people had success with just returning the water or do you need pipe trickery to make it consistent?

[upbeat tide]

Mine uses valves but I also let the pipes fill before really starting the system.

[vapid gorge]

It’s not a ‘full’ problem, thats my first troubleshoot. It was weird. I’ll reload an old save where it’s standing and try to work it out :/

[oblique hollow]

not entirely. they only partially let some flow through until the pipe behind them is full

example:
limit is 150
pipe behind can do 300, but its only like halfway full
ergo valve only does 75 at best

[vapid gorge]

God dam it

[vapid gorge]

I’ve developed a hatred for valves because they were preventing like 6gw power from being made. I had though it was purely directional prior

[oblique hollow]

slap a pump on the pipe to give it some extra force

[vapid gorge]

I was under the impression from peeps that it didn’t increase flow?

[oblique hollow]

it doesnt. it just helps with head lift

which is the thing that affects valves kind of

[vapid gorge]

My the pipes the valves were on were horizontal until they got to the machines, does any verticallity fuck valves?

[oblique hollow]

no it isnt that drastic

[vapid gorge]

Ah then I can say my pipes were pretty flat :/

[oblique hollow]

but were they full

[vapid gorge]

They were just causing stuttering on production refineries , and yes they were full but the machines weren’t getting it

[oblique hollow]

eh, consult the manual, you'll find a sufficient answer in there

[vapid gorge]

And the refs were stuttering so the total HOR wouldn’t have been enough since calcs were based on constant production

[wicked tinsel]

due to how buggy water backflow is, i guess the only sensible designs are where you throw excess water into other set of machines

[vapid gorge]

I got another 6gw after removing them. Still only getting 93% max prod sadly

[oblique hollow]

ooor you us priority junctions

those work pretty well

[vapid gorge]

I’ll have to look those up

[oblique hollow]

link is in the pins

[vapid gorge]

I don’t split my lines to different prod lines though

[vapid gorge]

I hate that idea XD more points of failure to Dubug other prod line issues

[oblique hollow]

coal gens

just chuck some coke into em and they eat up water

[vapid gorge]

I guuueeeeesssssssssss……

[wicked tinsel]

or wet concrete

[oblique hollow]

its a pretty alright way to solve aluminum for example

and its a net power gain

[wicked tinsel]

but usually you can just split your production line

so part is feed with input water and part is feed with extra water

[vapid gorge]

…. Wet concrete isn’t a terrible idea….

[oblique hollow]

its also not quite ideal, since you now have to bring in limestone

while you already have coal or water there

[vapid gorge]

Yeah I WAS valving waste water back on

[wicked tinsel]

limestone is virtually everywhere tho

[vapid gorge]

True. But my oil/coal budget for the area is tight

[oblique hollow]

the red forest is surprisingly defficient in limestone

[vapid gorge]

Not at my factory site sadly and I’m not replanning fir lime stone.
Is the priority pipe thing the WIP design thing?

[oblique hollow]

the VIP, yea

[vapid gorge]

Ta. I’ll give it a once over. It’s prob my best bet

[oblique hollow]

the vertical arrangement is important

[wicked tinsel]

i need to think some decent design for the reprocessing so it doesnt get too much water somewhere

[oblique hollow]

you too may bask in the glory of a VIP Junction

[wicked tinsel]

valves have another anti feature btw

you cant set the limit as client / on dedicated server

[oblique hollow]

anti-feature aka bug

[median heath]

Multiplayer Broken. Plz Fix.

[wintry aurora]

Hm, in this case, do I leave the fourth 4 as is or round up to 5? Context is the steel coated plate in this plan: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=NQs03svcerKUnJdj6EoB

[wind spade]

one at 54.4444% and one at 54.4445%

[wintry aurora]

'k

[charred crescent]

caterium wire or bolted frame quick

[wind spade]

depends on what you need really

all alternate recipes have advantages and drawbacks

[charred crescent]

i've still yet to automate smart plates

so im thinking cat

[wintry aurora]

Wut at name....

Anyways, I'd avoid bolted frame because screws, but if you don't have a better alternative available, sure.

[charred crescent]

i have cast screws nerd

@wind spade you seem helpful, you know how many screws and copper sheets it'd take to make 10 rotors per minute with the copper rotor alt?

if oyu dont mind me asking

[stark bronze]

this guy is also helpful, cept it takes questions anytime without delay!

hes called wiki

[charred crescent]

yeaah well i said 10

not 11.25

got my answers anyways

[stark bronze]

well given its not a particularly simple math but still

[charred crescent]

its pretty dumb how you have to underclock something THEN make the item itself inside of the constructor just to get proper readouts

like why cant it tell you on the spot

[stark bronze]

they probably dont have the logic for when you change clocking when an item is being made so they just dont let you do it in the first place

[charred crescent]

gonna pretend i understood that and look for a mod that fixes it

[stuck iron]

He already solved it for you https://www.satisfactorytools.com/

[charred crescent]

incredible

[wintry aurora]

Not sure why you're calling me a nerd because I wouldn't know if you had cast screws. :P

[charred crescent]

its my way of saying "fuck you and thanks for asking"

[wintry aurora]

O-kay.

[round rapids]

is there ever a point in having a miner or any single machine making more than 780 of something? like mk3 mines can go up to 1200/min, there's never a point in having it go that fast right?

[soft scarab]

Correct, because belts can’t carry that much. Devs are considering either adding 2 outputs to mk3 miners or rescaling things so the max output is 780, since belts can’t go faster due to engine limitations

[round rapids]

okay interesting. thanks

[wintry aurora]

I like putting it to 781 anyway just to ensure about it or something.

[charred crescent]

underflow protection

[wintry aurora]

Still limited by belt anyway.

[charred crescent]

how much can a mk2 belt carry per minute?

[round rapids]

120