math-and-meta

[rose steeple]

-11.76 or since most people say it goes downwards 11.76

[wind spade]

*towards centre of mass

[rose steeple]

Yes but in a flat world?

[wind spade]

how do you know it's a flat world

[rose steeple]

Heard it here first, Massage-2(AB)b is flat

[rose steeple]

Can't see any curvature

[wind spade]

if you mean that legit then you're being blocked. If it's a joke it's not funny because it's too real 😄

[rose steeple]

[oblique hollow]

Funny.... Trains use 9.81

[rose steeple]

:kekw: <- If only this could've been a thing

[oblique hollow]

[vast jungle]

if you consider the void thing, Massage-2(AB)b doesn't even seem to be a planet

[wind spade]

[vast jungle]

and of course you cannot see curvature when you look tangential to the surface of a sphere

[rare matrix]

unless you see the planet ling the hanging gardens of babylon, maybe there is a world underneath the void, shrouded in clouds

[rose steeple]

Does it sound correct that it would take you 680 seconds from flying straight up at 4 km/s to then hit the ground again?

[wind spade]

you'd die 2km above ground

[oblique hollow]

thats 11 minutes. youd die way before that

[fierce ruin]

Satisfactory would never kill you before allowing you the pleasure of hitting the ground. 🙃

[vast jungle]

(4000 m/s) / (11.76 m/s^2) = 340.136 seconds
until you are at vertical speed zero, not accounting for air drag.
double this and you would hit the ground again.

[rose steeple]

Yeah so 680 seconds

[oblique hollow]

its actually 2* v0 / g

so double that

[rose steeple]

He already said that :kekw:

[oblique hollow]

not my fault henning adds important info very late once again

[rose steeple]

[oblique hollow]

time to find out how high we go

[rose steeple]

About 1 million meters

[oblique hollow]

yes you die way before that

[wintry aurora]

That’s well into space.

[rose steeple]

Well the formula for time is t = (v0 - v) / a and considering the fact that without any air drag you'd end up with t = v0 / a to find how long it takes for your velocity to turn zero, we can also then make the assumption that the velocity would turn negative and be perfectly inverse so the equation would be t = 2v / a

[wintry aurora]

Atmospheric drag might kill you before you reach the ground though because hot plasma.

[rose steeple]

Why did I read the end as hot potato?

[oblique hollow]

hot piotato

[fierce ruin]

Confirmed, spitters are shooting super-heated potatoes at us.

[wintry aurora]

Also, do we know the density of the planets atmosphere? It might be denser because flying manta, but there have been pterosaurs of similar size wingspan before, so, the atmosphere may not need to be denser. Looks like it belongs on a gas giant though, or in the ocean, since it’s clearly never meant to land.

[crude kayak]

just starting out again for the first time in a year or two. looking for some early game meta tips

[wintry aurora]

The early game hasnt changed much, but last I played was U3, so, I don’t know about earlier.

[fierce ruin]

Given the game doesn't start until you unlock mk5s...
If you're not understanding the meta by the early game there isn't much help I can offer. 🙃

[crude kayak]

I hardly remember anything. just looking for early tips to set up an efficient mid game

[rose steeple]

To me 132 meters is very close to 116 meters
Anyways I have forgotten how to deal with height difference.
Considering the output isn't at the same height as the platform you land on.

[crude kayak]

1st playthrough I stopped when they added pipes. otherwise ive played up to hypertubes.

[wintry aurora]

Not sure what advice I’d give other than embrace the spaghetti and don’t worry about it too much.

[fierce ruin]

If you stopped at pipes you never really got to the start of the game.

So just play it your way until you hit T7, given you'll have to redo it all at that point anyway.

[oblique hollow]

pipes are so much different

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.

Factory Carts > Pipes

[wintry aurora]

I haven’t needed to ‘redo it all’ Did retool the base area after getting MK5 and all of the alts.

[fierce ruin]

You've been to T7/8 though.

Once you've done that you can plan ahead.

[wintry aurora]

Me?

[fierce ruin]

For people who've never gotten there, redo is almost inevitable.

[crude kayak]

Thanks for the input.

[fierce ruin]

👍

[wintry aurora]

Yea, I started playing in January at the tail end of the Ficsmas event and stopped at 5/6 because I wanted to wait for update 4. Then here I am in update 5.

[crude kayak]

Is there an agreed-upon best starting base location in the first area?

[wintry aurora]

Nope, it all comes down to preference.

[fierce ruin]

Rocky Desert superiority.

[wintry aurora]

Though it’s generally agreed that Northern Forest is a really good start due to the ore concentrations, but again, personal preference is a much bigger factor.

[crude kayak]

@wintry aurora can I dm you?

[fierce ruin]

Ouch 😭

[wintry aurora]

The starting locations are pretty well balanced out in terms of terrain types and ore.

[wintry aurora]

?

[wintry aurora]

What for?

[rose steeple]

So something weird is going on now, my original equation for speed through n entrances is failing

[crude kayak]

@fierce ruin you're clearly a good source of info for late game info. You said game starts at T5 so I dont want to bug you with questions before then.

[wintry aurora]

Just talk in here.

[fierce ruin]

Mk5s. Not T5.

[rose steeple]

Ok here's what's actually going on, traveling north through a hypertube cannon accelerates you faster than going south

At least it seems that way for me

[fierce ruin]

I've only noticed that going uphill in a hyper is slower and downhill is faster.

[wintry aurora]

If it were east, that’d make some sense because planet spin, but north vs south?

[wintry aurora]

Same, and there’s these kinks at each tube connection point that seem to accelerate you in some cases. Attempted to exploit that with zero success back in U3.

[rose steeple]

But yeah there actually is a difference between north and south facing cannons

Which is why my calculations are off from reality

Now I'm wondering if it's the same with west and east

[wintry aurora]

Are you using the ‘throw you into the air’ method or the ‘shoot you at high speed through the tube method’? May or may not get different results from those.

[rose steeple]

Well originally the method used was for shooting you into another hypertube that takes you to where you wanna go.
But then @ McGalleon | Factory Cart Deluxe responded to one of my messages with.

Now adjust it so you know how far you will fly with a hypertube cannon at angle Phi
So now I'm doing the throw you into the air method.
The thing is I test both when trying to find the constant that you need to find out the approximate output velocity.
Which was 15 m/s * 1.2^(n - 1), but apparently that only holds true facing north, so south is different idk by what but it is different.

I can now confirm east = south in terms of output velocity

[frosty owl]

The speed resulting from chaining entrances can change depending on your FPS too though
Eg: the same hypertube cannon may launch to X early game, late game (less FPS) it may launch you much slower (don't reach X anymore)

[rose steeple]

Nope it hasn't changed at all for me

Also can confirm that west = north in terms of output velocity

[frosty owl]

I'm not asking, just saying: having lag spikes being coincidental with you using a hypertube in a particular direction can be a thing

Not trying to disprove your hypothesis, just mind the variables ^^

[rose steeple]

Well true because delta time and all, but this is on the physics thread which shouldn't care about 1 second in game being 1 real second
So it should have a predetermined delta time of 1/30 or 1/60 which happens every tick on the physics thread.

Also even when having lag spikes I didn't notice an increase in velocity

I limited my FPS right now to 30 and still the same output velocity.
So that doesn't make a difference at least

[frosty owl]

That's usually a decrease due to lag (in my experience). Phisics simulation depends a lot on FPS 😅
I got to the point of not being able to enter some cannons without enough FPS (clipping through the tube)

[frosty owl]

Try limiting to below 20 via GPU software 😉

[rose steeple]

I mean sure the way UE handles physics is a bit weird.
Considering player movement has to happen on a 1/FPS basis.
But the actual physics should be handled at a constant 1/30 or 1/60

Due to that giving way more consistent results in terms of physics than going based on a realistic 1/TPS basis

[frosty owl]

If your save runs at 60 FPS smoothly, your tests probably shouldn't be affected by this unless you have a very high concentration of buildings somwhere that can cause lag spikes... 🤔

Eg: 500-power-packs tower causing lag when one faces that particular direction

[rose steeple]

But it shouldn't make a difference though

[frosty owl]

If you were to take a hypertube cannon while looking at the tower, you could be launched elsewhere than if you didn't

[rose steeple]

Maybe your fps is very low yes.
But since physics happens at a constant rate then what ends up happening is that your character still moves just like normal.
But you just don't see as many frames making it look like you're moving further than you should.

[frosty owl]

Nope, that only affects your visibility, not your landing point
It's quite common to hear about people dying due to taking an "old" cannon assuming to be shot at a jelly pad only to see the character fall short by ~5% or more

Dunno about 30 to 60, but below 30 FPS phisics simulation becomes quite whacky

[rose steeple]

Anyways here are the results of testing 8 directions with 7 entrances

N  = 45.57 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.20^(n-1)
NE = 31.66 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.13^(n-1)
E  = 26.35 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.10^(n-1)
SE = 26.37 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.10^(n-1)
S  = 26.42 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.10^(n-1)
SW = 31.65 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.13^(n-1)
W  = 45.81 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.20^(n-1)
NW = 43.51 m/s : 15 m/s * 1.20^(n-1)

[frosty owl]

I guess we can confirm that the pioneer eats tons of spinach and that the planet has a strong magnetic field

[rose steeple]

Ok so the factor 20% is true for the rotations -90 to -180, then it drops to 13% from 180 to 90, lastly drops to 10% between 90 and 0, going back up to 13% from 0 to -90.

If someone has any knowledge of an equation that would fit somewhat inside those values then that would be great

[rose steeple]

Ok I have finally gotten to the point where you can utilize a few formulas to get the distance:
t = 2v / a
dist = v * t
dist(v, theta) = 2 * cos(theta) * sin(theta) * v^2 / a
Though this equation doesn't do anything about height difference between launch and landing.

[oblique hollow]

fair enough, its just for "landing at the same height"

[rose steeple]

Yeah I wanna try to get one that you can use to find the actual distance with height difference tho

[oblique hollow]

though why cos too

[rose steeple]

To get x velocity and y velocity separated

Or in UE terms x velocity and z velocity

[oblique hollow]

seems a bit overboard assuming a combined velocity vectory

the distance is basically a "radius"

[rose steeple]

Well you need y velocity for the time equation

[oblique hollow]

you are multiplying both

[rose steeple]

Well yes, but your horizontal velocity doesn't change with gravity

Also there isn't any air drag in the game from my tests xD

Or was I maybe looking at the wrong value?

[oblique hollow]

cosx * sinx = 0.5*sin(2x)

[rose steeple]

Cool 😉

Making it smaller

[oblique hollow]

so it simplifies to sin(2 theta)*v^2/a

[rose steeple]

Yes

Nice 😄

[oblique hollow]

aka what i have on the wiki xd

[rose steeple]

Yes but it's wrong gravity

[oblique hollow]

can be corrected

[rose steeple]

11.76 is correct

And also the directional factor

Which you used 20% which is only correct in certain directions

Here are the correct factors
#math-and-meta message

[oblique hollow]

an error of 8%....

[rose steeple]

10%

The thing I hate though is that I didn't find an equation that would find the correct factor for a specific direction

[oblique hollow]

sine function of the angle, assuming East = 0°?

[rose steeple]

Tried using cosine or sine, but neither would fit the correct factors

[oblique hollow]

it may be an issue with global grid calculations. there have always been issues reported in that regard

of things being offset when going one way vs another

so the math is right but the game isnt

[rose steeple]

Because there's different factors for the four different 90Deg regions I believe

[oblique hollow]

shouldnt exist

[rose steeple]

Well it does

[oblique hollow]

time to report a bug

maybe it has to do with loading zones

[rose steeple]

Nope

[oblique hollow]

where did you do these tests

[rose steeple]

This is my test area

Located here

[wintry aurora]

Hm, I seriously doubt it's a factor, but could location be a factor? I don't think they did coriolis forces.

Just yadda yaddaing here.

[rose steeple]

I can almost assume that this behavior is intentional in some way

What the wiki says is that the cannon utilizes a bug in UE's physics engine, which I believe is totally bs

Cuz if it was a bug how come it gives pretty consistent results

[drowsy flicker]

How much Uranium Waste does an Industrial Stroage Container hold?

[vast jungle]

I think waste stacks to 500...

[drowsy flicker]

24k, I think then

8x6x500

[fierce ruin]

So regarding pipe floor holes:

I know people have had issues with them being hit or miss. Admittedly they may just be bugged out, but I haven't had any problems with them and I'm wondering how people who have had issues are building them?

I have made it a point to treat them like conveyor lifts and always build from the hole to whatever you are connecting. So I'm thinking maybe some of the issues come from people building the opposite way?

[vast jungle]

up to this point I had no trouble with the pipe floor holes... but I did not need that many of them, so I might have been lucky

[wintry aurora]

That's what I'm thinking too, that it has something to do with build order. But I seemingly ran into it doing it the same way as Sev does it, was able to fix with a pipe rebuild, so, it might not be direction, but build order.

[rose steeple]

I know that some times floor holes don't allow me to replace the lift or pipe, but a relog fixes that

[wintry aurora]

But then I think I did it in reverse with the coal generators.

[fierce ruin]

Also just daydreaming about the riots if they made 4m foundations cost 4x as much as 1m foundations 😂😂😂

[rose steeple]

I'd be happy if the 1m was cheaper

[fierce ruin]

I'd be happy the other way 😈

I'm doing all the underpiping for this excess coal plant with 71 generators.
Will see if I have any issues.

[rose steeple]

Anyways I have the formula for height difference too:
dist(v, theta, h) = cos(theta) * v * (-sqrt(-2 * a * h * (sin(theta) * v)^2) - sin(theta) * v) / a
Now to simplify it a lot xD

Geogebra did some funky simplification xD

[rose steeple]

A very nice sheet for how big a difference going north vs south xD

[fathom shell]

Heyo, I am debating if a train station design that has empty trains in a waiting battery before the resource pickup station is a worthwhile idea? Similar to Factorio designs

[oblique hollow]

only serial "stackers" work

parallel not really

[fathom shell]

What do you mean with serial and parallel?

[oblique hollow]

this is parallel. this doesnt work

serial is just trains waiting in a queue

so a single line, not many parallel ones

[fierce ruin]

@fathom shell only way to do the above is to have each parallel be it's own station.

[fathom shell]

Do you have a picture of serial? I am still not understanding correctly it seems

[fierce ruin]

Ever been behind a car at a red light?

You are serially stacked behind that car.

[ashen girder]

Trains can't pass other trains going to the same station.

[oblique hollow]

serial

trains waiting behind each other

[fathom shell]

Thanks for clearing that up

damn that really is unfortunate

[ashen girder]

Why?

[fathom shell]

Because I think its tidier and more space efficient

[ashen girder]

The tidier and more space efficient solution is to not overpopulate your tracks.

You don't really need either solution in Satisfactory.

[fierce ruin]

Yeah. Almost every case where you have trains waiting for a station in Satisfactory involves you having more trains than you should.

[fathom shell]

So you are saying having one train would be enough per route?

[fierce ruin]

I don't think anyone said "one". Just "less".

If you can do it with one, do it with one. If you need 2, you need 2 but they should be at opposite ends of the loop at any given time tbh.

[ashen girder]

It depends entirely on how long the loop is.

Keep in mind that it takes time for the platform to fill back up after the train leaves. So a second train pulling in immediately's not gonna get a full load.

[fathom shell]

Telling the train to wait till he is full should solve that, right?

[fierce ruin]

I mean yes, but forcing that condition isn't optimal all of the time.

[ashen girder]

And even then, if you do that, and there's always more than one train waiting, that's just wasting track space.

[fierce ruin]

Just keep shit moving along instead of making stuff stall out and wait.

[ashen girder]

But really, yeah. Trains can pretty readily move more than 1000/min/car. Not many things need to move in that volume in this game.

[fathom shell]

Is there any rule of thumb for number of freight cars to be used?

[ashen girder]

Try to keep it to 4 per locomotive? 😂

[fathom shell]

xd

[ashen girder]

My longest trains are only 4 cars. I have a couple 2 car ones moving around. I don't do giant bases like other people.

One dude has, like, 30 cars on a train.

[fierce ruin]

And even he doesn't have them waiting at stations 😂

[ashen girder]

Yup.

[fathom shell]

Holy cow, 30 cars?

[ashen girder]

Yeah. Don't forget, your stations need to be as long as your trains. 😐

I have a couple 6 platform stations for when I need the extra space, but those fuckers are already massive IMO.

I can't even fathom going past 8 cars. The map just isn't that big.

[fathom shell]

Why not just do 2x4 at that point?

[ashen girder]

Also keep in mind that while you can filter what your train loads or unloads, platforms are all strictly load or unload.

I use an in and out system, where two cars alternate loading and unloading between stations.

[fierce ruin]

I mean, there are lot of people that use trains for small amounts and the "why not just truck at that point?" question is completely valid, yet ignored.

People do what they want 🤷‍♂️

[ashen girder]

If you're doing mixed material, do you think truck or train is better?

I don't like mixing materials in truck stations.

[fierce ruin]

Doesn't matter unless you're talking 1 material per train car.

[fathom shell]

I personally just have bad experience with trucks and the autopilot AI

[fierce ruin]

Mixed trucks work just fine.

[ashen girder]

I'm talking 4 or 5 materials per car. 😂

[ashen girder]

You mean the thing Update 5 completely rewrote and largely addressed?

[fierce ruin]

In that case they have identical flow.

[ashen girder]

I'll keep that in mind then. Thanks.

[fierce ruin]

I have multiple mixed truck routes that flow just fine.

[ashen girder]

I guess I figured it worked better with single materials since it's all stack based with vehicles.

[fierce ruin]

Caveat being all of them output to mixed belt systems, not 100% how good they are with having to be resorted to monobelt systems, but again the result would be identical to training it.

[ashen girder]

Yeah, I already do that at my stations. Sort my outputs into containers.

[fierce ruin]

Stack based is only loading speed. Throughput is still tied to belts.

[ashen girder]

Then overflow them back to the inputs to head to central storage.

[fierce ruin]

Stack based loading is what makes trucks beat trains in that 1560 or less range.

[ashen girder]

That's, like.. the entire range?

Or do you mean total throughput for the whole vehicle?

[fierce ruin]

Yes. And if you exclude space as a factor because some people would rather have a station that takes up 8x the amount of cubic meterage....

It comes down to loading times. Trains have the fixed animation.
Trucks go by stack.

Yes this is about throughput.

[ashen girder]

So, like, having 4 truck stops vs a 4 platform station.

[fierce ruin]

Moving 2 stacks per second means in some cases the truck doesn't even have to stop.
Just drive slowly through the station.

[ashen girder]

Imagining them like throwing a pile of cable at the truck as it drives past real slowly. 😂

[fierce ruin]

Oh this is 1 stop vs 1 station + cargo platform.
Somehow that massive space difference just doesn't compute to people.

[ashen girder]

Yeah, having a single platform seems pointless to me.

[fierce ruin]

People do it because they hate trucks that much.

[ashen girder]

Yeah.. that's silly.

[fierce ruin]

No, silly is me turning all my water extractors to 250% 😉

[candid tundra]

I've been trying to use vehicles more since the update and imo they're pretty fun (and much more reliable now). My main annoyance is that Trucks just suck. They can't go up a 4m ramp which is very annoying.

[fierce ruin]

Explorers are the superior vehicle for truck routes.

Which is sad imo 🤷‍♂️

[candid tundra]

Yeah xD that's what I've been using

I have to admit I love watching the explorers zoom around though

[fierce ruin]

Trucks need more torque and less bounce then they will be more solid vs. Exps.

[candid tundra]

Also speaking of mixed items I have a route with vehicles picking up mixed bauxite and sulfur for my aluminum/battery production area, and it can work even for such high throughputs. It's a bit of a pain to ensure that it never clogs though, lol

I really hope they eventually add a circuit system similar to factorio where you can read container contents and do logic based on that. I feel like the ability to use something like that to control mixed stations would be super fun

[rose steeple]

Just replying to a bit old a post.
But I have a formula that you can use to find the required entrances to get a certain distance with a certain height difference and launch angle and factor 😄
First by getting the target speed.
Then running that through:
n = ceil(log(v / 15) / log(1 + factor) + 1)
And lastly you'd then have to compensate for the true speed, and probably prompt with the actual distance required to achieve the correct distance.

[candid tundra]

Also conditionally toggling lights, it's all I want xD

[fierce ruin]

Wettest Concrete you've ever seen.

[gloomy palm]

caution: wet-looking floor

[rose steeple]

Pro tip: wanna cool a reactor? Then just sink it into the ocean 😉

[gloomy palm]

good idea

[fringe pawn]

That's actually a key part of why submarine reactors work 😛

[gloomy palm]

ah yis, free water cooling

they did experiment with water cooling a data center that was submerged in a submarine type container

[rose steeple]

Yeah microsoft

[gloomy palm]

indeed

[rose steeple]

It came out looking pretty bad xD

[wintry aurora]

Is adding an empty canister return and recycle route a silly idea or...? There's nothing to return atm of course, but it's an idea I had for train or something. Also, how would I merge the empty container return one (lower right port) with the line coming from the production line (upper right) so as to prioritize the return and recycle one?

Someone posted a video of a merger prioritizer thing a while ago, but it's rather big.

[wintry aurora]

I decided to just try something. The two smart splitters are overflow in center and any undefined on the left side. No idea how well it'd work in actual practice as part of a recycle system.

[agile turret]

So I've been doing a bunch of planning and number crunching for a 60 motor/min factory, but then it occurs to me

Do I really need 60motors/minute? For what purpose would it serve. I look at the stuff that can be built with motors downstream, and while it looks like it's used in a bunch of buildings and vehicles, it seems to me that a much smaller motor factory would produce more stuff than I could use it for?

Is this generally correct? That we don't need to make stupendous quantities of motors

And if that is correct, what DO we need to make huge amounts of?

[wintry aurora]

RIP? Also pipes. Low tier items are generally needed in large quantities, but that would vary by recipe.

[agile turret]

RIP? What is that

Reinforced industrial pipe

I guess, for railroads

[wintry aurora]

reinforced iron plate.

[agile turret]

Oh

[fierce ruin]

Cries in 545 Motors/min

😭

[wintry aurora]

Turbomotors?

[fierce ruin]

Partially.
Most of it goes to Cooling Devices iirc.

[agile turret]

LMAO, 545 motors/min??? What the heck is that feeding

Ok

So basically I shouldn't feel guilty about overbuilding my motor factory

[fierce ruin]

Turbos at 45/min and I need a couple hundred Cooling Devices/min because I'm using OC Supers.

😁

[wintry aurora]

Whats all the turbomotor for? Sink points?

[young loom]

If I did the math right... the max value for oil is 9900 a minute?

[near zenith]

11.7k actually

[young loom]

I counted 8 pure, 12 normal, and 10 impure oil nodes

Oh, oil wells?

[near zenith]

idk, probably, i just go by greenys count on sftools input panel

[young loom]

oil wells gives another 3 pure, 3 normal, and 6 impure

1800+900+900

99+36=13500

How much can you do with that much oil anyway?

[near zenith]

oil wells dont give the same amount as oil nodes

[young loom]

oh, only half

so yeah, 11700

[near zenith]

with that much oil, i believe the answer you're looking for is "anything you want"

so just, you know, prep 1.5k refineries and start siphoning the ocean

[still trout]

i hate oilworks, the one i made last is janky as fuck and is hanging on by a hair

[near zenith]

oh, i was wrong, it's 2.1k refineries

and you get 35k plastic, what a deal

[young loom]

Jank spaghetti is best spaghetti

[thorn aspen]

you are throwing it away in 5 years anyways, who cares 🙂

[subtle crescent]

To be fair, thanks to someone on this Discord, I'm working on making a FICSMAS factory that'll be making like... 10 Wonder Stars/min.

So, that's... gonna be lots of fun to try and get all together.

[gray rock]

Anybody happen to know the pipe configuration to prioritize one pipe of water over another?

[fierce ruin]

Vertical.
Pipe on the bottom has priority.

[gray rock]

Thank

[patent briar]

So now that I have done the math on the max throughput that train stations can possibly achieve its making it a lot easier to min max my train stations per input block

Also did the math on what my minimum buffer size is that I need per belt/pipe which also helps a lot. Turns out you dont need very large buffers at all

[zenith lily]

Can someone help me break 60 into 5 sets of 12? I can't figure out how to get there only dividing by 3.

[wintry aurora]

Try 15?

[zenith lily]

I could but I want 5 assemblers making 10 frames

[fierce ruin]

Google "Satisfactory 1 to 5 balancer"

[zenith lily]

Ok ill try it

I think this will help thanks @fierce ruin

[frosty owl]

Generally speaking, you split to the closest multiple of 2 or 3 (eg: in sixths) and merge all extra back with the input. (eg: split in 6 10s, merge one back to get 5 12s)

[zenith lily]

@frosty owl ok that's something I couldn't find an answer to but now that makes since. Now I know for future builds. I used a balancer model I found online so I got it working. Now its 100% efficient.

Still new to the game so I'm trying to learn more and more.

[frosty owl]

I'm glad, that's exactly why I explained it that way 😁
Balancing can get quite hard depending on the numbers, be careful not to get too... "stubborn" with it 😆

<@&387163995947270144> When you get some time to check it out~ 🙏

[gray tiger]

My hypertube cannons currently have a double-entrance setup. Now I've found out that short stacked one-entrance rows also speed up quite good (and very fast because there is no "exit animation") but it feels like they have a limited max acceleration. Is there any math or "optimal way" between acceleration speed and travel speed?

[oblique hollow]

i only just realized the role of truck stations in the hierarchy of logistics

trains have no real throughput control

while truck stations do: 120 stacks / minute

meaning that factories that dont need an entire trainload full of stuff should be, logistically, hooked up to a common truck station

[uncut sigil]

So it's more about throughput rather than distance? I have been pondering giving trucks another go, but I am unsure where exactly they fit once trains and drones are available.

[oblique hollow]

you have very little control of how much a train can output

while you do have some control with the wait time (and frequency) of vehicles at truck stations

the distance factor is a neat bonus

you get to "group" multiple factories under one "Distribution Center"

and that center can be supplied by trains

[wintry aurora]

I’m considering some type of transportation for the complex, yea. I’ll probably do mixed types though and roughly 800m may or may not be too short for trains.

[rose steeple]

Damn hypertube be dumb rn

It chose a factor of 11.89%

Making my true 4 km/s hypertube fall short and only reach 390 m/s

[wintry aurora]

Maybe bleeding off too much speed?

[rose steeple]

Thing is I built the same cannon in the original testing world and I reached 4 km/s no problems, but now in the game I play on it doesn't want to reach it xD

[rose steeple]

Ok maybe I have a reason why now.
The factor depends on how you build it as well.
At least that's my hypothesis

[wintry aurora]

As in how closely spaced the entrances are?

[rose steeple]

No as in how you place the tube itself

[wintry aurora]

Nor sure if spacing them out a little vs as close as possible makes you go faster or not.

[rose steeple]

Because in the underperforming tube I placed all the supports first and connected the tube between them, and lastly removed the supports.
But now when I'm testing I place one support and then drag a tube and place a new support with the tube, then at the end remove the supports.

[wintry aurora]

Oh that, yea, I’ve noticed that, too sharp a curve will kill off speed. And then those kinks at pipe ends which somehow seem to accelerate you. I tried to exploit that once with no success.

[rose steeple]

I'm gonna test that afterwards, cuz I have used the same setup all the time sts snapping on a foundation (where s is support and t is tube)

[wintry aurora]

The support being there shouldn’t affect anything.

[rose steeple]

In my hypertube loop I have 90 degree turns and don't seem to lose speed from them, but I do deaccelerate rather quickly, hence why I wanna go beyond the limit of roughly 1 km/s

[rose steeple]

Naah but it glitches the view more xD

[wintry aurora]

Glitches the view?

I haven’t noticed any difference.

[rose steeple]

Yeah it moves the view around weirdly as if the camera collided with it for a split second and moved towards it

[oblique hollow]

hmm...... if you were to take a drone for 5 km distance and a train, at which point does the train become better

[rose steeple]

So I just retested the method I built the underperforming tube.
And already in the same direction I get 20% factor.

Ok seems like it only happens to longer than 7 entrances

[wintry aurora]

Anyway, what I was talking about is like the difference between these sets of tube entrances

[rose steeple]

That's not what I was talking about xD
But Imma test those as well, but first to figure out this weird mystery of why it's underperforming

[wintry aurora]

Just showing you what I meant is all.

[rose steeple]

Ok, well I doubled to 14 entrances with the sts placement and now the factor is 13.56%

[wintry aurora]

What's the percentage referring to?

I wasn't really paying attention to the conversation yesterday.

[rose steeple]

The equation should be o = i * (1 + f)^(n - 1), where i is input speed (15 m/s or 1500 u/s), o is output speed, f is factor and n is number of entrances

[wintry aurora]

So, percentage is gain in launch speed?

[rose steeple]

Yeah

Ok umm so the factor dropped again with the original placement method as well

[vast jungle]

has someone a "good" opinion on the default Battery recipe or is the "Classic Battery" just better?

[wintry aurora]

Is the wiki not working suddenly?

Nvm, seems to have been a hiccup.

[wintry aurora]

I'd say it's somewhat situational, plus the main difference seems to be whether you're dealing with liquids or not. 'Classic batttery' seems to be more efficient, but default hs less energy needs. It's not so much more superior that the classic battery would be best in every situation.

It's like most recipes in that they are often situational.

[vast jungle]

I ask because I am looking for a place to setup a Battery factory and most places seem to be awful for it... the "best" I could see on the map would be to put the factory right at the Lake Forrests Oil nodes.
400m to the East is some Sulfur, 400m to the West is some Bauxit...

The other alternative I see would be at the SouthWest edge of the Swamp... but oil would be 800-900m away

[wintry aurora]

That (the Lake Forest/south of Northern Forest oil nodes) also happens to be around where I'm doing my current project. I currently have a small battery factory by the oil isles and fly in the sulfur, I use the classic recipe there.

@vast jungle If you didn't see my edits. ^

[vast jungle]

flying in Sulfur is difficult without a battery factory...
hmm... I could buy a bunch of batteries in the Awesome-Shop or handcraft them... and then use drones to fly in the Sulfur...

hmm... yes, that idea sounds interesting

[wintry aurora]

Yea, it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Had to manually bring in the sulfur to get things started.

[rose steeple]

Funny thing, if you have a 7 entrance hypertube cannon facing north east power configuration can bring the factor from 13% to 17% like wtf

[wintry aurora]

I wouldn't waste coupons like that though.

power configuration?

[rose steeple]

How you connect power

[wintry aurora]

Simply the way you're wiring thm?

That's bizaare that it would even affect that,

[rose steeple]

This way gives a 17% factor
(I know I'm using cheats to get infinite power, but shush)

[cinder silo]

You can put the cannon segments closer together 🙂

[rose steeple]

And this gives 13%

[wintry aurora]

I'd test whether infinite power cheat is doing something.

[rose steeple]

Doubt it

[wintry aurora]

Even if just to see if it shows up without

[wintry aurora]

You wouldn't be able to do it that way without infinite power, is the thing.

[cinder silo]

There is no doubt 😛 , you really can put them closer together.

[rose steeple]

Yeah true, so lemme make it mk.2 compatible

[wintry aurora]

I think they were responding to me, Taromani.

[cinder silo]

Oh, sorry 😦

[rose steeple]

Bruh one power pole per?

[cinder silo]

I know, I know.

[rose steeple]

:lmao:

[wintry aurora]

I'd use MK3

[rose steeple]

Don't have them unlocked yet

[wintry aurora]

Cheat it in then, heh. ;)

[cinder silo]

Urgh I had to manifold feed a manifold, it's taking ages to fill!

[sand epoch]

Running on a mk5 with blade runners into a cannon ftw

[rose steeple]

This is also 13%

[rose steeple]

Input speed go brrr

[sand epoch]

Why does the % matter?

[wintry aurora]

Science!

[sand epoch]

.....

[wintry aurora]

What, it's a fine reason.

[sand epoch]

No, just no

[rose steeple]

Aha 17% again

With this

[rose steeple]

Because it's weird to say a factor of 0.2 or 0.17 or 0.13

[wintry aurora]

That's certainly bizarre. A possible logical explaination could be power spikes or the way power is distributed, but I know there's nothing like that in the game.

[rose steeple]

It can't be power fluctuations

[sand epoch]

Whats weird is trying to do math on a cannon....

[wintry aurora]

I know, since they don't exist in the game in the way I'm thinking of there.

[rose steeple]

Not really, when I already have all the equations I need 😉

[oblique hollow]

There, first attempt at describing the transport hierarchy. Criticism welcome.

[rose steeple]

They seem way to exact, always the same behavior so

[rose steeple]

Nice 😄

[sand epoch]

Gotta disagree, drones are high everything.

[oblique hollow]

cause they fly high?

[wintry aurora]

Shouldn't belts be variable throughput?

[oblique hollow]

compared to all other stuff, they are low

[wintry aurora]

True.

[oblique hollow]

780/min is low compared to a truck and train and even drone

[sand epoch]

Everything is yhroughput dependant on belts

[oblique hollow]

which is why belts are the lowest form

of transport

[wintry aurora]

Also, I use drones for regional too.

[sand epoch]

I use them for everything..

[oblique hollow]

regional drone stuff is kinda meh considering their effective range

[wintry aurora]

They're also FAST, windup time nonwithstanding.

[oblique hollow]

its like using a truck to transport stuff 10 m across imo

[wintry aurora]

Not THAT short range ya silly XD

[oblique hollow]

sure you can use ANYTHING here ANYWHERE

but the question is when does it become more effective

[sand epoch]

Everything (drones) is more effective than having to build/map routes. :)

[wintry aurora]

I agree on that point since the closer range, the more time is taken up by the whole landing and takeoff sequence for drones.

[versed violet]

The colored bars in first picture tell me nothing. If the intention was to use them to show the capabilty at glance, eg short 'throughput' bar for drones, then use them as bars. Right now its just... random colors?

[wintry aurora]

How close would you define 'regional' in the second one?

[oblique hollow]

random colors just to assign them to the right arrows

its just an organization thing

makes it easier to correlate what goes with what

[sand epoch]

Under 400m is just belts

[wintry aurora]

Also, what about tractors? and Explorers?

[oblique hollow]

defining effective ranges is really hard

drones is definitely in the km range though

[versed violet]

The three arrows on left are nonsensical. if they are meant to showcase that in this direction said quality raises, why are they pointing backwards?? from high to low.
Also, drones are not high throughput.

[sand epoch]

They need to fix the fuel player distance bug though..

Sure they are.. :)

[oblique hollow]

have fun trying to effectively fit drones in any chart

[wintry aurora]

It doesn't say that they're high throughput.

[oblique hollow]

drones are an oddball and i had to put them somewhere

[wintry aurora]

Fuel player distance?

[oblique hollow]

so i just ordered it all based on distance

theres a reason i didnt just use the arrows but also wrote TEXT next to each image

[sand epoch]

Drones use more fuel (batteries) than they are supposed to when player is far away.

[versed violet]

They say exactly that

[versed violet]

Multidimensional chart.

[wintry aurora]

Honestly, aside from belts, the three have a LOT of overlap and grey area.

[oblique hollow]

if you are of the opinion that all arrows have to go from low to high, sure, fine.
and for that second point:
No

i dont feel like doing a multidimensional chart

[wintry aurora]

11 dimensional!

lol

[oblique hollow]

drones are the only ones who dont fit neatly into this

2 properties match, one does not

[sand epoch]

Cause they are universal :)

[oblique hollow]

universal battery gobblers

[wintry aurora]

I think that was done in order to balance them because they're really fast.

[oblique hollow]

i could just kick the other two arrows and just order it all based on transport distance

[sand epoch]

Meh, just need a good supply.

[wintry aurora]

Plus their small size.

[oblique hollow]

Also:
Tier 7 Supremacist

[sand epoch]

All belts til then

[oblique hollow]

oh look now it fits :)

[wintry aurora]

I'd say you have high logistical control of drones as it's point to point, just limited. Unless that's what you meant.

[oblique hollow]

point to point is a low control. you have to use belts to control them

aka drones have no control

you have no filters, no set transfer rates

sure you could math around with the 9 inventory slots

[wintry aurora]

True.

[sand epoch]

How is that any different from the others? You still have no control

[oblique hollow]

trucks have control based on waiting time

since the transfer rate is 120 stacks / minute

[sand epoch]

You dont need wait times :/

[oblique hollow]

they exist tho

[versed violet]

That would finally make sense.
Why not use the colored bars as chart bars to show the value at glance?

[oblique hollow]

how would i do bars with random bullshit values

[wind spade]

could do a 2D graph like this

[versed violet]

use excel??

[wintry aurora]

Plus there's much grey area.

[oblique hollow]

and use what values???????

[sand epoch]

By not doing the chart to begin with... lol

[wintry aurora]

That only works for politics.

[versed violet]

You just DEFINED them. Low, medium and high, its all in YOUR chart.

[oblique hollow]

fine, level 1 to 4

[wind spade]

it's pretty much the same - preference based distribution

[oblique hollow]

using just throughput and distance leaves ease of control out of this

[polar sleet]

using truck wait times seems impractical; since you can produce the same results, via leaving receiving stations backed up, so they only take what they need, and in turn, sources station can only load that much into the trucks.

[wind spade]

I don't think "ease of control" is a valuable aspect in rating transport types

since all of them can be controlled relatively easy - by just giving them the values you want

[wintry aurora]

Trucks only?

[versed violet]

what if you want to transport something that only amounts to 5 items per min, but absolutely want a course to be run every 3 minutes instead of once per 3 hours? Like nuclear rods?

[oblique hollow]

trains-only distribution for multiple stops is basically nonexistent unless you want to just use overflow

[wintry aurora]

Drones would be good for that.

But I get the point, there's often far more nuance than the chart can display.

[sand epoch]

What i dont get is the obsession to force feed your views of game features on everone else with the info charts. There is no "right" way :/

[oblique hollow]

this is not a "rules of transport" chart

[polar sleet]

well if you are running a low throughput route, you have the truck wait at a spot near but not at the station for x amount of time then move into place to collect a larger load, before doing a full route cycle.

[oblique hollow]

its supposed to get you an idea of when what COULD be useful

[sand epoch]

In your view..

[oblique hollow]

if you want absolute throughput control just belt everything

and ignore mergers and splitters (after ores at least....)

[polar sleet]

technically you can get high throughput control for trains depending on how you manage them.

[oblique hollow]

"just overflow everything then it will all regulate itself"

i know

[polar sleet]

lol there's that option too

[wind spade]

what even does "throughput control" stand for? you can pretty much control throughput of anything by deciding how many items you put into that type of transport 🤔

[rose steeple]

I'll just say that's totally wrong.

[oblique hollow]

main point is trains have no real control besides "drop this stuff there, pick up stuff from there"

[wind spade]

what more control do you want? 🤔

[wintry aurora]

What about the filters?

[polar sleet]

probably rates / amount

[wintry aurora]

Course though, you can't segregate the storage into sections.

[wind spade]

rates are controlled by input speed

[oblique hollow]

thats why filters bumped trains from "low" to "medium control"

[polar sleet]

i know, but if more than one train uses a station, that rate is shared between them and runs into problems when things don't go as planned.

[wind spade]

that's an issue of using two trains to deliver into two different places (and that issue is also shared with any other type of transport)

[polar sleet]

the new train wait times feature helps fix this a bit though

[wind spade]

and can be easily avoided by building two stations (if you need to transport stuff to two different places)

[polar sleet]

I'm aware, I tend to segregate stations as well.

[wind spade]

my point is that since pretty much all the control is based on input speed, then there's no real difference in "ease of control" for any non-belt transport, since all of them are controlled in pretty much the same way

[polar sleet]

that being said though, it is possible to make trains take a minimum amount of resources a trip via setting a wait time at the source station, so there is some "throughput control" available there.

still trying to figure out when drones are more useful than trains. I get they have better efficiency at long range; but if your main base is as the center, would that be any better than trains? I'd probably use them more if I could do things like give them wait times, so they don't make trips with less than 30% cargo load.

[wind spade]

I'd say low throughput transport from hard-to-reach places

also vertical transport

[frosty owl]

First time I really appreciated the benefit of drones was when transporting uranium ore. The smaller number of stacks involved is very nice for radiation at the factory

[polar sleet]

hmm might try

[wintry aurora]

I've also used it for a couple low throughput things that I either didn't want to belt over or were too low throughput to bother putting another freight platform in.

I did put a freight platform in eventually for other reasons, but that's besides the point.

[polar sleet]

yeah i get the feeling i'll use them for factories that I don't build next to the main base, but have low outputs.

[frosty owl]

It's also convenient how they can both load AND unload, which makes them appealing for packages transport imo (full one way, empty the other way with a single drone)

[wintry aurora]

I'm considering using drone for the powdered copper that I'll need, just 200/ppm of it.

[polar sleet]

I think the biggest limiting factor for drones is that they only work between places that have a battery supply source at either location. also using a drone to deliver batteries is inefficient, since the drone can throughput way more batteries than needed. unless it is to a drone hub that uses a lot of batteries.

[frosty owl]

Use them to transport the ingots for the powder

[wintry aurora]

The drones?

[frosty owl]

Ofc

[rose steeple]

These are the factors so far.
The left column is the build configuration.
n = normal, p is where power configuration is flipped.
First number is entrance count, second number is tube length. (1 is impossible afaik)

[oblique hollow]

seems very impractical to use

just go with 20% and then steer backwards to not overshoot

[rose steeple]

But getting precise values is better ok 😉

[frosty owl]

I wonder if you could figure out some values for speed drop in relation to FPS
Shouldn't be too hard with the right drivers (just turning down max FPS via GPU software)

[rose steeple]

Ok adding a 2x longer one and we can see that the most optimal direction for a hypertube cannon is northbound.

[gray tiger]

||this is stupid but thanks for the research :)||

[rose steeple]

No it's not stupid, we all like hypertube cannons and I'm just doing research into how they work

[gray tiger]

I've meant it is stupid that they work differently in different directions (I could see why diagonal or not make a difference but N should = E = S = W)

[rose steeple]

Yeah at first I thought it must be a direction based calculation to get the exact factor, and that it started at a 45 degree offset from one of the cardinal directions.
But that's wrong, it's a weird thing honestly.

Would've loved to see the hypertube source code

[gray tiger]

😄
How do you measure these values? I've tried around a little bit today but other than "this feels slower than it should" I had no Idea how to compare them or calculate something 🙂

[rose steeple]

Open console and write ShowDebug PHYSICS and then you can look in the top right corner to see the exact speed.
Then I just record the game and look at still images 😉

[tropic hawk]

thank you for doing this so I do not have to. Do you have the figure for the acceleration of a single HTE?

[rose steeple]

HTE?

[wintry aurora]

hypertube engine?

[rose steeple]

Damn already half a gig of videos xD

[wintry aurora]

high torsonal energy?

[rose steeple]

hypertube entrance maybe

[wintry aurora]

heh

[gray tiger]

I am going frame by frame through my video and I have a very strange behaviour:
After entering the last guiding tube my speed goes down to ~20 % before shooting up again when changing direction
Any ideas?

[rose steeple]

Yeah it's normal 😉

It's just desync between physics thread and render thread I'd guess

If that is true then this image shows the steps xD

Dangit it removed the fricking reply xD

[frosty owl]

||Modular entrance? ||

[gray tiger]

Interesting

[rose steeple]

Did you build it on a world aligned foundation?

[frosty owl]

The "turn around" is suspiciously close to double the others

[gray tiger]

It is aligned North but I don't know if it is on the world grid

[rose steeple]

Hmm

It's been consistent on my end, with south always below 10%

[gray tiger]

Yeah it fluctuates inside of the tube but probably 2. Also the speed jumps don't match the entrance count xD

[frosty owl]

How about one of you tries with the others' save to see if it's hardware-dependant or not?

[gray tiger]

Whoops xD

I could imagine consistent inconsistencies if it is hardware dependent (like 5 % difference in every direction) but I don't think hardware should impact direction

[frosty owl]

Good point

[rose steeple]

Though it could be based on position on the map tho

I have stayed around the same part of the map each time I have tested

In dune deserts

[gray tiger]

Let me just build a quick (game crashed) star setup to test arround

[rose steeple]

Now I destroyed my data so I have to recalculate tons of shit.
But thankfully it's pretty easy to just put in some speed values

[gray tiger]

First thing I've tested just to be sure we talk about the same setup
I'll build the 1-0 because it is most compact and very simple to build

I'll test with 5 entrances for each direction, should be more than enough to see inconsistencies

[rose steeple]

Don't know how easy it is to read, but from this we can see now NE to S doesn't accelerate on the third entrance

[gray tiger]

Not sure what your graphic is but I think I've found the same

In other directions some entrances seem to be skipped

(North is the left one)

[rose steeple]

Damn you're actually building it the same as me

Adding 4 and 5 and I can see a trend in that every other one doesn't accelerate when facing NE to S

[gray tiger]

Almost exactly same findings:
N, NW and W accelerate 5/5
SW accelerates 4/5
every other only 3/5

Next level weird:
Some actually slow you down!

Only 3x acceleration

4x!

[rose steeple]

So skipping some will give higher speeds?

[gray tiger]

I'd guess the player position updating is a little off
In this wider setup 5/5 accelerate

[gray tiger]

I'd guess it jumps from the first to the third, because it is calculating the position to be closer to E3 than E2. If you remove E2 the player goes into E1-E2-E4-E5, if E3 is active it goes E1-E3-E5

[rose steeple]

Hmm, yeah maybe they go min(dx, dy) as the distance calculation xD

Which would explain why they have different factors in the different directions

Here's all info for 1 to 7

[rose steeple]

But it still doesn't explain why E and S are also skipping every other one compared to W and N

[oblique hollow]

thanks, will definitely never use this
just like i never used this beast

[rose steeple]

wtf is that

[oblique hollow]

the mathematical attempt at a formula for a manifold

[oblique hollow]

game inaccuracies?

[rose steeple]

Only thing I could think of is an intentional drag in those directions.
Not inaccuracies because the way it works is so consistent

[wind spade]

you're analysing something that's literally a bug that was just left in the game because people liked it

[rose steeple]

You sure it's a bug and not an unexpected feature

[fierce ruin]

Yes.

[wind spade]

idk, but I don't want it in the game 🤷‍♂️

[fierce ruin]

Hypercannons aren't supposed to work.

[oblique hollow]

officially a bug, just like cheatcrete was

[fierce ruin]

But people like them so they never fixed it.

[oblique hollow]

just that people liked these bugs

[rose steeple]

The so called "bug" is just that each entrance takes the input speed and multiplies it by a certain factor, this allows the hypercannon to work in the first place.

[near zenith]

greeny hates fun confirmed

[rose steeple]

And they don't limit the output speed

[wind spade]

no, I hate when undocumented features work instead of them having a proper solution for this

[oblique hollow]

just like the water tower?

or VIP

[rose steeple]

But it's consistent, meaning it's not a bug but instead an unexpected feature

[fierce ruin]

The bug is that the next one catches you to begin with.
When you exit you're supposed to have your inertia reset but because we delete the supports it messes things up.

[wind spade]

bugs can be consistent

[fierce ruin]

Fixing the bug would be making it so the reset happens whether you go through a support or not.
But that takes time to code and meh, people like cannons.

[rose steeple]

Naah the fix is to just force output speed to 15 m/s or something

[fierce ruin]

Sure 👍

[oblique hollow]

also nobody will ever bother to look up a table for specific directions and then use these factors for their cannon
people just want a good enough estimate, and if needed they just test the damn thing

its a fun project yea, but thats it

[fierce ruin]

I don't even think people look up estimates anymore.
They just know to not build 20 in a row. 🤷‍♂️

[gray tiger]

Last thing to that discussion: Now i got 4/5 working with 5 powered. This is a little inconsistent but overall our findings match pretty good. We'll see if this is addressed in the future 🙂

[wind spade]

I already talked about my suggestion about this here a few times:

• remove hypertube launchers functionality
• hypertubes will move you at constant speed now (no more speeding up or slowing down if you're going uphill/downhill)
• hypertube entrances will set your speed to fixed (can be a bit higher than current "normal" speed)
• add "hypertube booster" buildable which is a straight piece of hypertube that can be connected to normal hypertubes. It sets your speed to higher (can have mk2+, each one setting higher speed). But it sets it, not increases, so stacking multiple boosters won't help you
• hypertube boosters can be used to slow down to normal speed if you travel through them in reverse
• max possible speed with max tier launcher should be like 2x-3x the times of normal speed at most (no more op launching across whole map)

[near zenith]

i mean... all of my main cannons are 30x... soooooo

[fierce ruin]

You live dangerously.

[near zenith]

but so much zoom

[fierce ruin]

Past 20 is when you get into "flung through the tube and off the world instant death" territory.

[near zenith]

oh, sidenote, i dont use air cannons, i use enclosed cannons

[rose steeple]

Well the spreadsheet will be used to understand how they work and what might be causing the differences in direction, and to make it possible to write which direction is better than the others (currently sitting at North).
And the version that works best

[near zenith]

i'm in a pipe, not parabolic

[gray tiger]

Kinda agree. This would be good except it would suck to get around a map wide factory... I don't want to afk for 5 Mins just because I need to go somewhere

[fierce ruin]

Same issue.

[rose steeple]

Depends on what direction you travel, NE to SW would normally go slower so you need more to actually reach that point

[near zenith]

whelp, haven't yeeted myself into purgatory yet, so i call it a win

[fierce ruin]

@wind spade remove hypers.
Give Jump Pads purpose again 😉

[rose steeple]

Or better have an ultratube which teleports the player to the other end

[wind spade]

well the game has to be balanced somehow. If you have a transport method that's essentially teleportation, it's kinda weird

[fierce ruin]

I'm against teleportation.

Given they auto-kill you if you try to fly on a drone because they don't want you to fly.

[oblique hollow]

??? no they dont

[gray tiger]

I don't see the reason to not allow lategame teleportation

[oblique hollow]

i never died when sitting on a drone

[fierce ruin]

Did they fix that?

[rose steeple]

Sadly you can't recreate teleportation or instant travel through hypertubes because they have a limit of length/30 between each support

[oblique hollow]

they never did to begin with, or did i miss something

[fierce ruin]

People were instantly dying during Exp when hopping on drones.

[near zenith]

hold up i can ride my drones into war like a viking now?

[wind spade]

I think the only "teleportation" I'd be fine with is lategame storage container that requires large amount of power, but can be accessed either from other such storage containers or through some terminal, so essentially a remote storage

[oblique hollow]

my drones always just flung me off

[fierce ruin]

But either way, if they are against flying, I'm against teleportation for the same reasons.

[wind spade]

I don't see a reason to allow it 🤷‍♂️

[rose steeple]

Well the ultratube should've used sam ore or something or maybe even somersloops

[oblique hollow]

late game teleportation kinda nullifies the purpose of drones and stuff, for items

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.

[oblique hollow]

"oh look theres this better thing"

[wind spade]

trains, explorers (and/or my idea for hypertubes) are pretty fast methods of transportation already

[fierce ruin]

What we have now is great.

[gray tiger]

Well big lategame factories are... It is just no fun anymore if 50 % of the game becomes walking.
But hey, personal preferences 🙂

[fierce ruin]

I don't think we need additional movement methods.

[near zenith]

i'd be ok with lategame quantum oscilator based teleportation which has a minimal distance before it works

[wind spade]

see above, don't walk, use trains/explorer/hypertubes

[fierce ruin]

But that does beg the question of what we will do with SuperOscs.

[wind spade]

not to mention that the game kinda pushes you towards separated smaller factories (and devs recommend it as well)

[oblique hollow]

quantum puter

[fierce ruin]

Fair.

[rose steeple]

Being limited to 120 km/h is a nono from me

[oblique hollow]

they go up to 200

[gray tiger]

Hypertubes without cannons are slow, and the 120km/h with trains is kinda okay, but I still can go afk while travelling to an outpost

[wind spade]

the way I look at this is that their description can be just temporary and we have no guarantee that when released it will have it

[fierce ruin]

Also fair.

[rose steeple]

Oh still

[fierce ruin]

If you think the devs made their game wrong with travel decisions, that's what mods are for.

[rose steeple]

Way slower than the max of roughly 1 km/s for hypertubes

[wind spade]

that means traveling 5km (pretty much from one edge of map to another) takes 2.5 minutes. I doubt you have that big factory 😛

[oblique hollow]

120 km/h is 2 km/min
the map is only 5 km x 5 km

[rose steeple]

I mean currently I have one in the pure node heaven (which is the old base) and another in dune desert which is pretty far, and takes forever to drive back and forth whilst the old hypertube cannon took 30 seconds one way

[wind spade]

may be worth thinking if you need to travel there so often 🤔

[rose steeple]

I have yet to get the old storage system to the new place

[wind spade]

set up train to transfer it

[rose steeple]

I have a new one (which doesn't do anything yet).
I only have trucks atm xD

Have been doing FICSMAS you know

[oblique hollow]

~~waste of time ~~

[vast jungle]

Interesting, without the "Pure XYZ" recipes Satisfactory Tools consider the "default" Battery recipe more efficient than the "Classic" one... even with the higher sulfur consumtion

[oblique hollow]

weighted sulfur

[vast jungle]

hadn't expected this...

[oblique hollow]

thats with ONLY pure.

if you have iron wire or whatever ir prefers classic still

[vast jungle]

I activated all alternate recipes and deactivated the "Pure" ones... hmm

ahh, I see... I accidently also deactivated the "Pure Aluminium Ingot"... when you deactivate this, you get the default Battery

[oblique hollow]

yea classic only need half the bauxite and sulfur

upside to normal battery: simpler

[vast jungle]

not sure about this

[oblique hollow]

it is simpler

[vast jungle]

hmm... no plastic

[oblique hollow]

no involvement of wire, just aluminum and sulfur stuff

[vast jungle]

default battery can even work without oil at all...

I think I dumped it down to Bauxite, Coal and Sulfur...

(and water of course ^^)

what do you think about this area near the swamp in the East?

everything necessary within 500m...

[tropic hawk]

hypertube entrance

[rose steeple]

Then this is the way you build the current optimal one

[gusty lark]

amigos, what does D/A mean while in a train?

[fathom shell]

Ive control+F'd this already but I havent found an answer, is there any mod or something along the lines that simulates or works like LTN (Logistic Trains Network) in Factorio?

Possibly with FicsIT-Networks?

[rose steeple]

Maybe ask in the modding server

[patent briar]

wait what

how in the

[rose steeple]

Fills at 602 m^3/min and drains at 353 m^3/min then the net is +249 m^3/min

[rose steeple]

Don't see anything wrong

[patent briar]

Fills at 602 m^3/min
Yeah thats the part I am "wait what"ing at

[rose steeple]

It fluctuates a bit

Is my guess

[patent briar]

Pipes cant go over 600

[rose steeple]

So slight fluctuation

[patent briar]

How can it possibly achieve "fills at 602"

[rose steeple]

Probably from how pipes work xD

[fallow kiln]

Yes its a very stupid question but how can i know how much smelters i need to burn 600 irons p/minute?

[patent briar]

how much iron/min does one smelter consume?

[fallow kiln]

Yes

[river night]

build one and check, if you dont know where else to find out 🙂

the info panel when you open it shows you

[patent briar]

its a question, how much iron per minute does a smelter consume?

[river night]

smelters for iron ore consume 30 per minute, so in this case you would need 20

[fallow kiln]

oh, srry

[obsidian plover]

can anyone help me understand why a 10 battery/min supply coming in via a drone port is unable to keep up with fueling 3 drone ports (including itself) that only require 2.62+2.64+2.37=7.63 batteries/min according to the display?

[full quarry]

how many batteries come in on a drone delivery? are they getting split evenly among the ports

[still trout]

among us sus

[wind spade]

wrong discord

[sand epoch]

If the ports in question are not near the player it could be the double consuption bug. Assuming you manually pre stocked them so a manifold wont cause delays filling...?

[patent briar]

Just learned I could do this. Amazing.

[candid tundra]

wait whaaaat? I didn't know that either

[patent briar]

Huh... Why isnt my train filling up?

[wind spade]

the classic - check power, settings (load/unload), if train is docked, etc.

[patent briar]

definitely has power, they are set to load, all are 100% full of oil, and the train settings are as such:

its docked atm and I cant click on the platforms, so they are "in use" by it

[tidal lily]

This like a lot like the behaviour I was seeing the other day. I eventually fixed it by deleting and rebuilding all freight platforms attached to the station

[obsidian plover]

the battery receiving drone port has it's output belted down the line to the other 2 drone ports, feeding all three ports' batteries in a manifold with the overflow going to a storage, the ports are near my main base where i'm usually at, though the other ends are halfway across the continent

oh, i see what you were asking, ya they were manually pre-filled, with the manifold supposed to just top them up, but the stacks drain out eventually

even with the constant 10/min input from the battery drone

[vast jungle]

I see you are talking about drones... how much batteries do you currently produce per minute... I am trying to decide if 60/min is enough for a start or if I should just grab all of the corresponding Sulfur node and get 120 batteries per minute

[obsidian plover]

i only had one blender producing batteries at 20/min, half of that was supplying 2 drones near my blender, the other half was being droned back to base to stock the rest of my drones

i've since completely deconstructed my aluminum base and changed it to a alumina conversion plant, shipping the alumina back to my main base where i have more room to expand production

my drones moving halfway across the map were consuming about ~2.5 batteries per minute each, so, depending on how many drones you're thinking of running, 60/min should be more than enough

[vast jungle]

so start with 60 and have enough space to expand to 120 later... that sounds reasonable

[vast jungle]

but first I have to finish the train line to the factory... I first thought about supplying everything by drone, but then I would have to add a power line to the place anyways, so better expand the railway network first

[jovial echo]

if I have access to both steel screws and iron wire, am I better off going with stitched or bolted iron plate?

[thorn bane]

stiched uses alot less iron

[fierce ruin]

Stitched is the least iron of any RIP even if you do it purely from iron.

[fierce ruin]

Challenge mode: Kickstart a Blender with enough resources to make batteries for drones that go get the resources for it to continue. 😉

[wind spade]

bolted are only good if you want to save on power, they use more resources than normal reinforced plates

[jovial echo]

thanks

[reef belfry]

In my current playthrough I'm going for steel coated -> adhered iron plates

Usually went with classic plates + iron wire + stitched but this time wanted to try something new

[river night]

adhered is only for late game anyhow, like when you build loads of crystal oscillators with RIPs or such

[thorn bane]

adhered is kinda skewed because saving iron is really only needed if you use iron wire
if you dont you make everything from steel anyway and for that youre capped by coal/coke not iron

[fierce ruin]

How is it beating Stitched?

[thorn bane]

less iron
also less weighted resources

[fierce ruin]

Weighted

[thorn bane]

stiched is 281.2 iron
adhered is 145+20 oil

[wind spade]

3.75 iron -> 10 reinforced plates

[fierce ruin]

281.2 iron per plate seems wrong...

[frosty owl]

I've yet to see a plan running out of iron though (one that isn't maximizing HMFs or something, that is...)

[fierce ruin]

Max Screws 🙂

[river night]

i personally wouldnt bother with oil for plates to save iron, but nothing wrong with just wanting to do something else

[thorn bane]

huh? youve never seen an ADS planer using 7000 iron wire constructors?

[frosty owl]

Yeah, that's the kind of "nonsense" I was referring to with "maximizing HMFs or something" xD

[frosty owl]

I've seen it still leave iron ore unused

[river night]

max screws or max iron plates might as well be max iron ingots 😛

[fierce ruin]

Automating Project Parts (for whatever reason) could max your iron limit. I can see that.

[thorn bane]

*making the maximum amount of awesomepoints/min

[fierce ruin]

Max Screws is even more ridiculous though. It uses all Coal, Sulfur, Oil, and Iron on the map 😂

[frosty owl]

Don't you run out of bauxite/oil/Sulphur/coal first anyway? UNLESS you maximize specifically an iron-only item

[fierce ruin]

If I need awesome points I just play the theme from the first lego movie 🙂

[wind spade]

that's per 60 plates, he said per plate 😛

[fierce ruin]

So it is not per plate. 🙂

[thorn bane]

huh? when?

[fierce ruin]

Also I really need to ask Ondar what he wants to take the 60/min off the wiki...

[wind spade]

literally in the message you replied to 😛

[fierce ruin]

😂

[reef belfry]

So related question is: assuming that I'm tripling my oil, is it possible to run out of it?

[thorn bane]

so i write numbers for 60/min
he writes per plate?
and i show him the math i did
im confused

[fierce ruin]

Anything is POSSIBLE....

[frosty owl]

All the plans I made (admittedly, some time has passed since I last ran a few such simulations though) left out some iron in space elevator maximization, due to finishing anything but iron and limestone first

[fierce ruin]

Fair.

[thorn bane]

i just use adhered because its the lowest building count
fuck iron wire

[fierce ruin]

Which is a solid way to look at it,.

[frosty owl]

What's the preference for adhered over bolted in build count?

[fierce ruin]

Just overclock everything to lower build count 😏

[frosty owl]

Sorry, bad English today (worse than usual 😅)

[fierce ruin]

Oh, @wind spade I was told to apologize to you for overclocking my Water Extractors.

[thorn bane]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=ElPkTAuhdnCnc7cQT4Mq
uses all the iron AND copper AND caterium for wire

[river night]

I OC extractors as well, screw fitting 2.5 times as many in small lakes and rivers 😛

[fierce ruin]

That was why I did it. 100% about space-saving.

[thorn bane]

oh btw apparently bolted frames are insanely good

[river night]

if i'm at the ocean, i dont do it, but when i'm tapping a lake or river .. yeah. i got power shards, i can use them

[fierce ruin]

Coal Lake West is where my steel outpost is.
Build I went for I was trying to keep as much of the lake open as possible.
OC'ing them meant I could fit them all under the platform where the coal gens are.

[thorn bane]

im getting 2512 for adhered 2241 for bolted

ye bolted is best
https://www.satisfactory-planner.net/?f=v3_U5,7fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff7ffffff,reinforced_iron_plate:per_minute:100,,70380:100:0|28860:243:0|52860:133:0|30900:227:0|11040:637:0|10500:670:0|6840:1028:0|11700:601:0|9780:719:0|2100:3351:0|12000:586:0|0:1:1,0,0:0:0:10000

[frosty owl]

What are those numbers about?

[thorn bane]

machines for 6000 RIPs

im still amazed by the Rubber -> recycled plubber loop

[frosty owl]

So the frames here is a typo? XD

[thorn bane]

nah that was unrelated

(hence the btw)

[frosty owl]

Bolted plates beating anyone on machine count doesn't surprise me much, but I don't get the point about the frames

[thorn bane]

bolted frames saves alot of machines

[frosty owl]

The bolted frames one seem a bit too wasteful, "even" to me

[fierce ruin]

Which screw recipe?

[thorn bane]

like going from def. frames -> bolted frames was more of an improvement as going from iron wire to fused wire

[frosty owl]

... Casted ofc...

[thorn bane]

steel screw obviously

[fierce ruin]

Error: Conflicting Return Types

[thorn bane]

its just a bit more steel 🤷

same amount of RIPs

you just replace steel rods with steel screws

[fierce ruin]

Steel RIPs when? 😏

[frosty owl]

Remember how I made a whole thread to discuss this topic?

[thorn bane]

well thanks to @candid tundra we actually have math now to calculate these things

[thorn bane]

#math-and-meta message

[frosty owl]

Which is where I explained why the extra coal seems too much for me to save on some machines
Surely, bolted frames can be the least machine-count way to make frames, but the coal usage spikes up compared to using normal (normal frames, bolted plates, normal rods) for a relatively small reduction in machine count

[frosty owl]

Seems like I missed a lot of interesting messages...
I'd have loved it if you tried seeing the results using my recipe combo too ^^

Though, nothing new on the frames side... Seems like I got that part figured out already :P xD

[thorn bane]

just fiddle around with https://www.satisfactory-planner.net for a bit
like setting weights to 1000 buildings and 1 resource efficiency
and then the opposite
you get super interesting results

[frosty owl]

Maybe soon™️

[thorn bane]

@frosty owl
train takes form station A
train is full when it gets to station B therefore it doesnt pick up stuff
train unloads exactly how much it took from A
ez priority

[fierce ruin]

Using that "Wait until full" functionality

[thorn bane]

no?

[oblique hollow]

This was U4 and even U3 stuff

[fierce ruin]

How else are you ensuring the train is 100% full when leaving A?

[thorn bane]

mcgalleon is like "i was there 3000 years ago"

[oblique hollow]

Just.... Wait for it to get full after a few rounds

[fierce ruin]

So you're letting your station back up?

[thorn bane]

yep

[fierce ruin]

1. Ew (but understandable pre-U5)
2. We have wait until full now.

[frosty owl]

Overflow was part of the point

[thorn bane]

btw thats how i did alu in my first big playthrough
it makes water recycling a joke

[oblique hollow]

Long ass times but it works

[fierce ruin]

Overflow from the drop off station being full is fine and I fully endorse it.
Having your pick up station backing up is just... ew (but understandable pre-U5).

[wind spade]

I was there where we didn't have trains

[fierce ruin]

If your pick up station is backed up I'd say you're doing logistics wrong. 🤷‍♂️
Just my opinion.

[fierce ruin]

Been trucking since U1 AND PROUD. I love my trucks 😭

[thorn bane]

ehm
nobody was saying to do that?

[wind spade]

I didn't even get to trucks

[thorn bane]

nvm i cant read

[fierce ruin]

Saves me typing 😂

[thorn bane]

actually idk i think i disagree
just means youre overproducing that part which is fine
for example i had a station that always had water in it that i could draw from
dont really see that as a downside

[fierce ruin]

Overproduction should be routed to storage though -- again, my opinion.

[thorn bane]

ah ye i dont do storage xD

[wind spade]

All production is to storage and overflow to sink

[fierce ruin]

I don't overproduce.. so there is that.

I designed this run from the top down, starting at turbos and supers.
Everything feeds into those 2 so all of it is metered to exactly what is needed for them + storage amounts.

[thorn bane]

do you have a planner or something you follow?

[ashen girder]

Wouldn't that just be a plan?

I have one of those.. doesn't everyone have those?

[fierce ruin]

Does my notepad count?

[thorn bane]

but ye i actually dont overbuild for storage i just have a splitter that splits of to a container so until its full my factory is running at <100%

[thorn bane]

sure gimme gimme

[fierce ruin]

Initial concept was 1 stack per minute of each storable item.

Got refined in terms of 45 once I discovered that magic, so 45/90/180 of everything (things that stack to 500 are capped at 180).

So 45 turbos and 45 supers per minute, trickle the rest down.

[thorn bane]

just send me the notepad 🙃

[fierce ruin]

Although in terms of future proofing I may bump supers up...
Given they are probably going to be a component of quantums.

That's the part I hate. Whole system will be balanced but the moment they add new items it gets fucked...

[thorn bane]

all i need to do is draw 4 lines from my bus 🙂

[fierce ruin]

Fair.

Though it has taken me a month per outpost so far, so I doubt I'll have it completed by the time they add more things.

So there is wiggle room.

Unless wiggle room involves more PCC's... because I am not redoing my HMF outpost once it is completed.

135/min is horrible enough.

You think 90 super/min would be a good enough buffer in prep for quantums?

[oblique hollow]

Let alone playing the game

[fierce ruin]

Oof.

[low yoke]

how much batteries do i need? say for 1 drone for 2km distance

[half quiver]

Enough

No clue, no drone yet..

[low yoke]

kk

but nice answer

[fierce ruin]

Wiki has the math on drone battery usage.

[low yoke]

ty

[gloomy palm]

some interesting statistics about the satisfactory discord mentioning other games:
#off-topic-media message

[ashen girder]

Makes sense. DSP and Valheim because they're both very young comparatively.

I imagine over time they'll rise to #4 and #5.

You, uh, spelled Stellaris wrong.

[gloomy palm]

😅

[gloomy palm]

the chart's source table for anyone interested

and just for fun, this is what the chart looks like without a logarithmic scale

[sand epoch]

why is that even tracked? o0

[ashen girder]

Everyone needs a hobby.

[nova trench]

Item mentions could be interesting :d

[cinder silo]

Up to 770 coupons in the sink, should I wait and grab the golden nut before the other statues ? 😄

[fierce ruin]

Sink all the coupons. 😏

[cinder silo]

Lol nasty 😛

[rose steeple]

Eyy after fixing my hypertube cannon I reach 3 km/s 😄

Though sometimes you get flung into nothingness on the other end xD

[tiny sentinel]

anyone have more suggestions for color coding factory areas?
I've started using this for all my pipes.

Hex Codes:

Yellow = F9F10A
Red = FE0000
Orange = EC8B2A
Green = 0F7512
Blue = 1E5B94
Brown = 593714
Purple = 532A79

I also found this post on reddit with a lot of cool suggestions
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/qp2zpo/psa_some_useful_custom_colors_to_use_with_the/

[wooden crest]

Anyone have the tier list for alternate recipes?

[wind spade]

No because all are situational and depends on player's preferences which ones are useful for them

[cedar mica]

I think the only 2 "garbage tier" once, is the 2 Biocoal once. Rest depends on usecase

Even if you do a chainsaw powered map, biocoal alts, is not that usable, compaired to biofuel

[fringe pawn]

I see some amusing arguments for where biocoal and charcoal are technically beneficial, but I think the most apt way to describe them continues to be 'not useful.'

[cedar mica]

Turns out, if you do the MJ value, you get more from turning biomass/wood to coal, then to solid/liquid biofuel

Biofuel is also more steps to make, while coal needs water. But if your goal is to power with what you can chainsaw, Biocoal and Charcoal, is the way to go

[fringe pawn]

Until we see people actually doing that, I'll stick with 'not useful.'

[tidal lily]

I appreciated the shift on the wiki to just listing alternative recipes with tables of numbers rather than commentary. You can make up your own mind depending on what you have available right now

[cedar mica]

Smerkin5000, did do a run where he chainsawed the entire map and powered his factory with it

[tidal lily]

only commentary I'd keep is that any recipe that removes the need for screws is S tier

[cedar mica]

Everyone hates screws, but dont mind huge amount of wire or quickwire, bogging down the belts in the same way...

[fringe pawn]

If you gave me one alt recipe, it would probably be diluted fuel. Then you can use all default recipes everywhere else and have enough byproduct HOR from mandatory rubber and plastic production to power your space elevator factory.

[cedar mica]

Diluted fuel without heavy oil alt?

[fringe pawn]

If you have to pick one single alt recipe and all defaults otherwise, I mean.

Otherwise HOR is the first step in max efficiency to anything oil related, of course.

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=BalBrSr0i5jNzJwjmewG

[cedar mica]

Wont you on avarage get more fuel, with just heavy oil residue?

[fringe pawn]

It's for that build, specifically, where I wondered what it'd be like to use all default recipes. Adding diluted fuel makes it self-sufficient in terms of power.

You can of course add pure ingot recipes, HOR, and other things to reduce raw resource consumption, but the concept was as few alts as possible.

Cut the part production in half and you can power it with only geysers and use all default recipes. Which requires sinking the HOR in some way, in which case you may as well generate power with it (you'd be looking at residual fuel -> generators versus coke -> sink). Which led me to adding diluted fuel and cutting geysers.

[wind spade]

screws are hated mostly for their inefficient recipes, not high amounts

[cedar mica]

Might be, but a lot of time I hear complain about screws, its how they clog the belts

[wind spade]

because people don't build them 1:1 🤷‍♂️

[cedar mica]

Just saying, if its about what clogs the belts, Wire and Quickwire, should be up there as well

[fringe pawn]

Wire and quickwire are much more common in recipes, so I think people live with it for that reason. Otherwise I transport caterium ingots versus quickwire for this reason.

I used as little copper as I could get away with, so I've got a mix of default quickwire and fused quickwire. Almost all of my wire is caterium wire, except my beacon factory running on iron wire.

[fierce ruin]

Water and Air seem to be swapped imo.

Mainly because working in hospitals, every oxygen port is green.

[cedar mica]

Sure its not Brown, for Combustible Fluid and Gasses?

[fierce ruin]

I'm 100% sure.

[cedar mica]

So someone messed up the Green and Brown, then ordering the pipes...

[fierce ruin]

In every single hospital in America....
And our overseas hospitals too...

[cedar mica]

All charts I can find, lists Green as Water. Air is ether blue/light blue or Brown

[fierce ruin]

That just seems weird as fuck because water = blue is just a natural equivalence to the brain.

[cedar mica]

White is usually communication, so cant use that for Air

And main usage of Brown, is Combustible Gas and Fluid, which Air counts as

So it depends on what is already in place or not, if Air is Blue or Brown

[fierce ruin]

Neither of those explains why water isn't blue though?

Like why make water green and not air?
Even if oxygen is under brown.

[tidal lily]

you'd have to ask the exalted minds at ASME who came up with the standard

[cedar mica]

It seems the code varries with usage. Underground vs above ground vs military vs industrial

[tidal lily]

that ASME standard explicitly does not apply to any underground pipes

I don't know whether there's a different standard for those or whether it's just a free for all 😅

[cedar mica]

I assume when you reach out to get colored pipes for something, the store/manufacturer gives you the standard one

Still, I havent found a single one, that mention Air as Green

Then again, I'm sure it probably was cheaper to get Green then Brown...

[tidal lily]

I remember some of these from my time in the labs. You can see some points of crossover with the ASME one

[unreal osprey]

Idk about ports but oxygen welding tanks are green cuz non-combustible

[cedar mica]

"Oxygen is also not flammable, but it is a high-energy gas that very readily oxidizes other materials"

So it depends on the enviroment

[unreal osprey]

Indeed

Which is why the acetylene tank next to it is red

[wintry aurora]

And fire is a form of oxidation.

Just really high energy oxidation.

[unreal osprey]

Just that oxygen requires something to oxidize

[cedar mica]

Oxygen being counted as a Combustiable Gas, might have something to do with the Navy. Specially subs

[fierce ruin]

O.O next we get into flammable vs. inflammable 😏

[cedar mica]

Lots of gasses are combustiable in a certain range, Stoichiometry. So controlling how much O2 there is, probably keeps a lot of the others in check

[tidal lily]

oxygen itself isn't combustible BUT if you have a bunch of oxygen around, you might find that some fires start that otherwise wouldn't. So in some cases you have to treat it in a similar way

[unreal osprey]

True, like if you blow oxygen onto gas it will often ignite
Gotta take a moment to appreciate that I am in a video game server talking with people about pipe colour coding :D

[cedar mica]

It is an engineering and logistic game, so it makes sense that we see to the real world for solutions to problems

[fierce ruin]

Game has no problems whatchu meeeeeeeaaannnnn.

😏

[unreal osprey]

Time to create my own :)

[fierce ruin]

This is doubly funny given how many problems are actually created by the player 😂

[wintry aurora]

Seems odd that hot industrial water isn't in that diagram.

Or maybe it's implied by just using a red dot instead of blue.

[cedar mica]

There are charts that list Boiling water

[wintry aurora]

Also, colorblind people would have a hell of a hard time with that diagram.

[tidal lily]

the taps have to be labelled too. It's not the end of the world for people with bad colour vision. It's just a handy set of shortcuts

[fierce ruin]

I'd be curious how many colourblind engineers there actually are tbh.

[wintry aurora]

Probably in fields of engineering where color coding isn't critical.

[fierce ruin]

I'm picturing a vast landscape of biomechanical wheat when you say "fields of engineering".

[cedar mica]

Bio engineering...

[fierce ruin]

Which leads to only one outcome:

We are Borg.

[cedar mica]

Not sure Cybernetics, is part of Bio engineering

[wintry aurora]

Lol

[fierce ruin]

I would say it has to be a subset at least?
Given how the tech is entirely based on integrating the mechanical with biology.

[cedar mica]

Probably a mix of Robotics and Bioenginnering

[patent briar]

Still having issues with my train absolutely refusing to unload its oil