I know...
#math-and-meta
vast jungle
but my current HT network doesn't go to a central place, so I am not sure the design would work for me
rose steeple
It would, but power requirements would go to the roof 
vast jungle
at the moment I have 11.4 GW... lets wait with things like this until I get more power ^^
rose steeple
That should be enough
vast jungle
11.4 GW total... not 11.4 GW left
rose steeple
vast jungle
and even then, something is off... I sometimes miss 300-400 MW... and I cannot find why.
rose steeple
Ok so I have done some semi bad tests and I might have found the amount of speed increase per segment of two entrances.
Which is about 20% faster through each one.
So to found the rough output speed of n segments the equation would be: max(inputSpeed, 1500) * 1.2^(n-1)
And it actually is very very insanely accurate
Now we need this equation on the wiki page ok 😉
vast jungle
^^
rose steeple
Funny thing they already have the equation on the wiki, but it's a bit off imo because it uses 12.3951 m/s as the base speed which the first segment would always limit velocity to 1500 u/s
vast jungle
I think I found the problem... something in the water production of my 1st coal powerplant is strange... one of the three pipes is nearly empty
rose steeple
btw 100 u/s is 1 m/s
oblique hollow
Funny thing they already have the equation on the wiki, but it's a bit off imo b...
Because it was tested and plotted in excel and then trend line magic
Its not 100% accurate
rose steeple
I think I found the problem... something in the water production of my 1st coal ...
Same thing is happening to mine so I'm rocking a very unstable coal plant supposed to produce 3.6 MW but instead it's at about 3.2 MW
rose steeple
Its not 100% accurate
But mine was 😄
And I did the same thing sorta xD
The calculations I did
vast jungle
I just overclocked one water extractor per pipe to 150%... lets running all tanks full and then see if they drain again with 100%
rose steeple
They stay at about 20% improvement since the last segment.
The last one is wrong tho, I failed at recording it xD
vast jungle
hmm... I have ONE pipe segment in my water system for the coal powerplant that doesn't fill up completely
rose steeple
Again ran the numbers for 32 segments which I have flown through lots of times, and the value is pretty much what I expect going out the other end 😄
ashen girder
hmm... I have ONE pipe segment in my water system for the coal powerplant that d...
Rebuild it. Sounds like a bugged pipe.
vast jungle
I will replace the whole network with MK2 pipes... That should solve it
oblique hollow
The calculations I did
Due to the variability of speed (running in, jumping in, jump pad, blade runners), the quick and dirty method worked for most purposes
Buuut good to know i guess
I didnt measure any speed or anything though
I measured launch distance for 45° launch angle
The rest was mathed out based on that launch distance
rose steeple
Buuut good to know i guess
Now we all know 😄
oblique hollow
Wanna go ahead and verify the math for pipes too? 
rose steeple
Like when you launch into another tube?
oblique hollow
No i mean fluid pipes lol
rose steeple
Is there even viscosity in sf
wind spade
yes
rose steeple
How and for what?
wind spade
it's in game data and for fluids
rose steeple
Oh lmao
I'd believe it would maybe change how fast the liquids travel through pipes
languid mulch
I have a total of 52 assemblers, each split into groups of 13 -- making for 4 floors, with 13 in each. Each floor has their own box where the quickwire goes due to mk 5 belt limitation which is capped to 780/minute. Each assembler makes 90 quickwire per minute. One floor is a total of 1170 per minute, split into two belts and going into one industrial container. However, the total number of quickwire is 4680 per minute -- which can actually be evenly split into a total of 6 belts with 780/min speed (4680/780 = 6) So my question is -- how can I evenly spread the existing 4 industrial boxes into either 3 industrial boxes or 6 normal boxes, to get an output of 780 (or double that in case of industrial) for each? Or am I overthinking things?
ashen girder
I have a total of 52 assemblers, each split into groups of 13 -- making for 4 fl...
Or am I overthinking things?
👆
languid mulch
So how do I do this...
ashen girder
I'd just run two belts per floor and make sure no single line ever has to carry more than 750.
languid mulch
Nono, the final possible output from the destination box has to be 780 (or double in case of industrial)
ashen girder
Use overflows at the end then?
Merge two belts, then overflow the second belt into a merge with the third belt.
short holly
what route do ya'll take to recycle nuclear waste? i'm deliberating what setup to go for as i've just unlocked a few alts.
per the channel name, what's the meta 😉
ashen girder
If you search there is a lot of conversation about it.
I don't know the exact recipes choices, though. I think it depends on what your goals are?
Like MJ/uranium vs Points/uranium.
short holly
fair. (search on discord in this channel isn't producing anything). i may go points/uranium .. i've got fertile uranmium and instant plutonium which seem to push in that direction
ashen girder
Yup, pretty much.
At that point it's "do the math, and figure out what fits your scenario best."
short holly
yeah. think i'm going the fertile/instant route simply cos it's a simpler setup with the parts i can access for it right now (and not need a new big drone setup)
frosty owl
Nono, the final possible output from the destination box has to be 780 (or doubl...
You can't get 780/min for more than 1 belt segment, items will pile up in any 780 segment you make if followed by another belt segment
languid mulch
I figured it out
frosty owl
fair. (search on discord in this channel isn't producing anything). i may go poi...
Try searching "plutorium" for an in-depth analysis of max uranium vs max plutonium. I think it can help you in your recipe choice even if you want to may use both (though it seems to me you're looking for the "max uranium" route)
candid tundra
If you want I have a tool that you can use to analyze nuclear production lines. Nuclear depends a lot on your exact goals... My roommate and I are currently building this in order to maximize power production (because it's fun):
https://www.satisfactory-planner.net/?f=v3_U5,7fffffffbffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff,plutonium_waste:maximize:20,,70380:100:0|28860:243:0|52860:133:0|30900:227:0|11040:637:0|10500:670:0|6840:1028:0|11700:601:0|9780:719:0|2100:3351:0|12000:586:0|0:1:1,0,1000:1:0:0
Basically we've opted to not use fertile uranium because it's less power overall
short holly
Ah excellent. I'm not really a min maxer but I like efficient! BTW, your tool is excellent
candid tundra
But if your goal is to irradiate the world it produces more waste xD
Yeah the fact that fertile uranium uses up more of the uranium makes it produce less power, but it can definitely be more convenient if you're not trying to maximize uranium-to-power conversion
satisfactory has a lot of these tradeoffs though so pretty much just down to preference 🙂
candid void
If you want I have a tool that you can use to analyze nuclear production lines. ...
What the fck is this path? Did i missed so much? O.O
I looked at this and my brain is burning...
candid tundra
haha
warm sphinx
any tips for when i have a storage system with smart splitters but the belt is maxed but i need to add more towards the belt that goes fromn smart splitter storage?
ashen girder
Filter high-volume items before they get to that belt.
I have an ISC connected to my train stations that divert half the quickwire and wire off the line straight to the sinks.
tacit dust
any tips for when i have a storage system with smart splitters but the belt is m...
More lines, have you a picture how you do it now?
thorn bane
If you want I have a tool that you can use to analyze nuclear production lines. ...
OH you did building weights
thank you so much ❤️
wait its doing rubber -> diluted fuel -> recycled plubber WTF i never even thought of that
thorn bane
hm seems like TPRs is actually better than pasta
TPR is 13.766m2
pasta is 13.822m²
for same amount of awesomepoints
BUT
TPR is less resources (145 instead of 193
and TPR uses ALOT less power (1399 instead of 4280)
kinda makes sense since 0.5 pasta/min takes 1000MW on average in the particle accelerator
candid tundra
OH you did building weights
thank you so much ❤️
No problem! And I made complexity behave more reasonably as well. However solving complexity is very slow for large production chains and will time out (because math -- aka linear optimization with integers is not fast 😭 )
thorn bane
wait if i disable TPR recipe the Total Build area goes down 
https://www.satisfactory-planner.net/?f=v3_U5,7ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff,points:per_minute:100,,70380:100:0|28860:243:0|52860:133:0|30900:227:0|11040:637:0|10500:670:0|6840:1028:0|11700:601:0|9780:719:0|2100:3351:0|12000:586:0|0:1:1,0,0:0:0:10000
vs
https://www.satisfactory-planner.net/?f=v3_U5,7fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff7ffffff,points:per_minute:100,,70380:100:0|28860:243:0|52860:133:0|30900:227:0|11040:637:0|10500:670:0|6840:1028:0|11700:601:0|9780:719:0|2100:3351:0|12000:586:0|0:1:1,0,0:0:0:10000
even though im optimizing for Buildings
oh damn steel screw -> bolted frame actually looks pretty good compared to steel rods -> def. frame
its using a bit more steel but reduced the amount of buildings by alot
candid tundra
Ah yeah two things:
a) it's going for building number rather than building area
b) due to the integer thing I mentioned earlier it's not optimizing the integer number of buildings because that's way slower. So it gets more inaccurate for smaller production demands (because then you end up with lots of, like 0.001x buildings).
thorn bane
oh why not just minimize building area?
candid tundra
Well building number is more useful imo, since it translates to effort as well as UPS (for people trying to go really big), and build area is reasonably closely coupled to it
thorn bane
but building 1 manufacturer takes longer than 1 constructor?
mostly cause of the inputs i guess
candid tundra
That's true, and there are some recipes where you have to choose between assembler vs manufacturer, but usually adding more inputs in general also increases the total building number elsewhere
So it seems like it's pretty good at minimizing both (at least in my testing)
It would be possible to add both, but my thinking is that it would be unnecessary options (which adds complexity -- both to maintain and to use)
thorn bane
ok with that tool we can look at different ways of getting awesomepoints
- ADS using all minmax recipes like iron wire etc.
this is our baseline so we will call it 100% resource usage (weighted) and 100% Building Area - ADS but we use Insulated Cable instead of default Cable
this is using 103% of the resources but has 91% of the Area - ADS but we switch from def. Frames to Bolted Frames with Steel Screws
this is using 103% of the resources but has 90% of the Area - ADS but we switch from Iron Wire to Fused Wire
this is using 108% of the resources but has 85% of the Area - We do 42% ADS and 58% TPRs
this is using 117% of the resources but has 72% of the Area - We do only TPRs
this is using 122% of the resources but has 63% of the Area - We do TPRs but use Radio Control System instead of def. Radio Control Unit
this is using 123% of the resources but has 60% of the Area - We do TPRs but use Turbo Presure Motor instead of Turbo Electric Motor
this is using 128% of the resources but has 54% of the Area
Note that alot of these resources are Nitrogen which is inflated because Nitrogen is rare - We do TPRs but use Copper Alloy instead of Pure Copper and Rubber instead of HOR
this is using 145% of the resources but has 47% of the Area - We do TPRs but use def. Caterium instead of Pure
this is using 163% of the resources but has 46% of the Area
I was between 4 and 5 as i did 20ADS and 2 TPR but used Fused wire + insulated Cable
everyone can make their own decision how hard the want to min max
Interestingly some recipes were always used like Pure Iron/Pure Quartz/Diluted Fuel/Steamed Copper Sheets because while they are complex they still have lower Building count than the alternatives
Also def. Alumina Solution was always used with the silica going to Silicon Circuit Boards but using Caterium Circuit Boards once that Silica is used up.
crystal charm
that's a lot of acronyms
also, i dun goofed my math, and managed to overproduce screws by like 3x
i can always just escort them out of the building to somewhere else
patent briar
My first water supply line to my pillar is up and running. This key pipe trick is amazing, saves me several GW of power on headlift
patent briar
I have a total of 52 assemblers, each split into groups of 13 -- making for 4 fl...
Load Balancer, 8:6
Though if all 8 inputs are already even, then you need to do an 8:6 exchange which would be...
Probably would end up looking a lot like an 8:6 load balancer anyways tbh
crystal charm
i'm fairly sure my biomass burners went for longer than 50mins, i just fed 11 of them, and only need max of 10, i'm gonna time it
1:20pm qld time, mark
wintry aurora
Remember though, they throttle based on demand, unlike other power plants. Though the others used to do that.
ashen girder
If they last longer, it's because you don't need all of their power.
crystal charm
i thought they only did that if there was another power source like coal
ashen girder
Nope. They always do that.
crystal charm
so if i fill up 36 of them, and the max capacity is just under 10 for power usage, they could last hours?
thorn bane
the time is 50 * Capacity / Consumption
ashen girder
You can underclock them to make them last a lot longer, too.
thorn bane
You can underclock them to make them last a lot longer, too.
wat?
ashen girder
What?
wintry aurora
You can clock biofuel generators?
thorn bane
they underclock themselves you dont need to udnerclock them
crystal charm
biomass? there's no option for that
ashen girder
Oh, wait, can you clock them? 😂
wintry aurora
*biomass, yea.
wintry aurora
Though biofuel is still technically accurate.
thorn bane
but ye in my example i have 765 capacity and ~200 consumption so my burners will last for 50 * 765 / 200 = ~3hours
wintry aurora
Pretty sure I had it last hours with less than 30 generators? Course though, the biomass burner setup is LONG gone and I don't remember what the power production was around the time when I started setting up coal generators.
IIRC, I had like, 8 I think, not including the two on the HUB.
crystal charm
hmm, well i guess i'll see
ashen girder
I mean, it's entirely dependent on consumption. Every non-burner power source you add extends how long your burners will last until infinity. 🤷♂️
They're essentially non-rechargeable power storages.
Hey, I'm not dumb.
You can clock them.
And if you run them underclocked, you extend how long they can run for.
Then again, you'd have to build twice as many and then they'd run half as fast anyway, so probably not a major gain. 😂
But still. I'm not dumb. 😛
thorn bane
well no
lets say you have 15MW consunption
1 burner at 50% will run the exact same time as a burner at 100% since that burner will just regulate itself to 50%
ashen girder
Then again, you'd have to build twice as many and then they'd run half as fast anyway, so probably not a major gain. 😂
jolly wasp
Hi, guys. New here. Is this how I would split 5 into 4+1?
ashen girder
Hi, guys. New here. Is this how I would split 5 into 4+1?
That would net you 3.333 to the right, not 4.
thorn bane
> Then again, you'd have to build twice as many and then they'd run half as fast...
but underclocking is just straight up worse
if you have enough power its EXACTLY the same
if you have less your fuse breaks
ashen girder
but underclocking is just straight up worse
if you have enough power its EXACTLY...
What?
thorn bane
a burner at 100% thats connected to 15MW consumption will last twice as long
thorn bane
so it doesnt matter if you underlock it or not if you have 15MW
ashen girder
Yep.
thorn bane
"no gain at all" "only downsides"
ashen girder
Okay? Yes. You're right. No gain at all.
Not even really any downsides, though. 🤷♂️
thorn bane
yes if you consume more
ashen girder
Yes, the downside that exists for one state exists for all situations with that state. That's not a downside unique to this situation.
thorn bane
it basically makes it so you build half as many burners
jolly wasp
That would net you 3.333 to the right, not 4.
is there anyway I can do it , or do I need to double my production to 10, and then split into like 4+4+2 (I'm making reinforced plates -> smart plates, trying to save that one excess)
ashen girder
is there anyway I can do it , or do I need to double my production to 10, and th...
Look up prime splitters on the wiki.
jolly wasp
Look up prime splitters on the wiki.
ty
ashen girder
And in case it needs said, @thorn bane, I agree that it's entirely pointless to underclock burners.
Honestly, it might actually be worth overclocking them though.
thorn bane
well you said
"And if you run them underclocked, you extend how long they can run for."
but thats just wrong 🤷
agile turret
Well, 1+4 is 20% and 80%
ashen girder
well you said
"And if you run them underclocked, you extend how long they can ru...
Yes, and I've agreed with that.
agile turret
So if you split one quantity in half, and then take one of those halves and split it into three
thorn bane
well you kinda dont have the shards for it that early
ashen girder
Well, 1+4 is 20% and 80%
Splitters can do 50% or 33%.
ashen girder
That's.. not how math works..
thorn bane
!wikisearch prime splitter
shadow prairieBOT
ashen girder
0.5/3 is not 1/5..
agile turret
Derp yeah you're right
frosty owl
well you said
"And if you run them underclocked, you extend how long they can ru...
You missed his point, with double the burners at half the clock yoh need to come back to refuel half as often (each burner "lasts" longer)
ashen girder
That's not actually true if you work through it.
thorn bane
but double the burners at half the clock is the same as double the burners at 100%
frosty owl
The "gain" is the more buffer for biomass pretty much
frosty owl
but double the burners at half the clock is the same as double the burners at 10...
They fit double the fuel 🤷♂️
thorn bane
underclocking burners is never worth since they just regulate themself
frosty owl
If one is just interested in how often they have to refuel the burners, underclocking is the way~
thorn bane
no.....
underclocking does nothing
building more burners sure
but you dont udnerclock them
frosty owl
Suggest a better option to reduce how often you need to refuel your burners ^^
thorn bane
building more burners
at 100%
because underclocking does nothing
a burner at 50% will take the same time as a burner at 100%
frosty owl
Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, just as you said, weird how I "fell for it" the same way
thorn bane
they should just remove the option to clock biomass burners
frosty owl
One might still want to OC them
ashen girder
Eh. Overclocking at least does have an effect.
thorn bane
actually ye youre right nvm
ashen girder
It's like every other generator. There's just no reason to underclock them. 😂
frosty owl
What if burners gained fuel efficiency when underclocked?
thorn bane
well kinda for other generators since it lowers the consumption of fuel
wind spade
was one thing that I suggested already - for gens fuel efficiency would scale instead of fuel production
so if you clock it to 250%, you'll get 250% power at the cost of more than 250% of fuel
would then behave similarly to other machines
thorn bane
wouldnt that make it so you never ever overclock them?
frosty owl
I was referring to biomass burners specifically
wind spade
wouldnt that make it so you never ever overclock them?
it's the same for normal machines as well 🤷♂️
you overclock them to save space but lose power
it would be an actual tradeoff instead of "hey have weird numbers but otherwise no change"
ashen girder
Yeah.. I'd like them to go one way or the other.
Either make the numbers quit lying, or give us an actual tradeoff.
thorn bane
hm i see it as they are not as power shard efficeint instead
wind spade
I'd like overclocking of gens to have disadvantage, same as machines do. Since you save space
ashen girder
I mean, power shards aren't really a significant limit.
thorn bane
I mean, power shards aren't really a significant limit.
yes they are wdym?
ashen girder
There's, what, 1500 on the map alone?
And doggos can provide an endless stream of them.
thorn bane
yes and you need 90% of those for miners
wind spade
I mean yeah you use 3 shards to double outcome, but you usually either have tons of shards (and clock all the gens) or very limited shards (and don't clock at all)
ashen girder
You're overclocking every limestone miner on the map?
thorn bane
You're overclocking every limestone miner on the map?
you have all 1500 slugs?
wind spade
doggo farm = extra slugs
ashen girder
I mean, no? But I also carry 40+ shards on me.
So... never really been concerned about it.
ashen girder
...I.. in fact do, actually, have more than enough to overclock all I want to.
patent briar
Well from the map alone how many power shards are there total?
ashen girder
1500ish. 😂
thorn bane
1401
patent briar
We can math out how many shards it takes to 100% every miner
thorn bane
wind spade
last time I did the math (but probably stuff changed between that) it was like 80% slugs go to miners
patent briar
So assuming you are maxining out Mk5 belts, that means:
Pure nodes: 2x slugs
Normal nodes: 3x slugs
Impure: 1x slugs
ashen girder
258 of those to limestone alone.
thorn bane
258 of those to limestone alone.
bro if you use 1145 miners im guessing you have more than 400 machines running
ashen girder
Sure, you have at least 1145 machines running. 😉
Are you overclocking producers too?
ashen girder
I don't get why you want to mine every node and then just piss away that many resources in power.
thorn bane
cause you can just make more power
or overclock your power
ashen girder
No? Power costs resources man.
thorn bane
by that logic you would underclcok everything to 1%
wind spade
I mean if you are at point where you're using the whole map and played with the intention to clock a lot stuff, you probably had doggo farm running for a long time and have way more than 1400 slugs
ashen girder
We're talking about using every node. That means every MJ of energy you burn is a resource that can't be turned into something productive otherwise.
frosty owl
If one maxes nuclear, running out of power is kind of a challenge...
thorn bane
We're talking about using every node. That means every MJ of energy you burn is ...
yes by that logic you would underclock everything to 1%
but im guessing you dont do that
ashen girder
No, I don't. I also don't make decisions based on every node on the map.
I also don't waste power, or overbuild power like a lot of people in here do.
thorn bane
if power shards are free you either do 250% or 1%
theres no breakpoint at which one gets better than the other
ashen girder
I understand the math.
wintry aurora
We're talking about using every node. That means every MJ of energy you burn is ...
Are we assuming a most efficient recipe strategy or like what? One could also do a power savings strategy, but low power recipes aren't always the most efficient.
frosty owl
I kinda assume anyone interested in using all the nodes on the map (for whatever reason) has plans for max nuclear
ashen girder
That's why I don't make decisions based on slugs.
ashen girder
Are we assuming a most efficient recipe strategy or like what? One could also do...
We haven't actually had a thing we're optimizing for at this point, so no idea.
It's just a fact that if you have no additional resources, power is fungible to resources.
thorn bane
yes and people dont care
otherwise they would underclock to 1%
ashen girder
Those two things aren't related.
People can care while also caring about other things.
I care. That's why I don't throw shards in every machine.
wind spade
if power shards are free you either do 250% or 1%
theres no breakpoint at which ...
there's also time to build and gather resources, and also fps
wintry aurora
Lol at reaction zyra. It's not even a pun.
ashen girder
But I also don't run every machine at 1%, because I also care about space.
thorn bane
there's also time to build and gather resources, and also fps
yes if you care about any of those you do 250%
wind spade
time to gather resources involves time to find slugs
ashen girder
Must be weird seeing everything in two colors.
wintry aurora
?
thorn bane
i meant in the situation where power shards are free
ashen girder
Black and white. He's saying if you do care, you should always overclock, if you don't care, you should always underclock to 1%.
When neither of those is ever the correct answer.
thorn bane
well youre not in that situation since slugs exist
wind spade
do you also include time to build the extra power if talking about clocking everything to 250%?
thorn bane
do you also include time to build the extra power if talking about clocking ever...
yes
but also overclocking those gens to 202%
wind spade
which means finding more slugs, which means more time spent, which means it takes way longer than 100%
wintry aurora
Space limitations?
thorn bane
250^1/1.3 = 202%
ashen girder
Okay, so you clock them to 250%.
thorn bane
which means finding more slugs, which means more time spent, which means it take...
again i meant in the situation where power shards are free
wind spade
which they aren't
wintry aurora
It also takes more power, so, makes sense to not unless really needed, or just for like the extractors.
ashen girder
I OC all my power beacuse I OC all my machines and I OC all my machines so I can feed all my OC'd power. 
wind spade
well ocing power doesn't really help you feed your machines 🤷♂️
thorn bane
if you OC power and OC machines youre using 50% of the machines for 100% of the product
ashen girder
You aren't, though.
thorn bane
wanna bet? xD
wind spade
you're also using more than 100% materials
ashen girder
I know the math. I promise you, you aren't, unless you're disregarding the resource costs.
You need way more than twice the power, so it isn't half the machines to begin with.
wind spade
You need way more than twice the power, so it isn't half the machines to begin w...
well 250% machines is also 2.5x increase, not 2x
thorn bane
probably even leess
ashen girder
That doesn't offset the 4x increase in power consumption though.
thorn bane
if power was hard to get then yes id agree you wouldnt OC to 250%
wind spade
it depends what machines and power you're using I guess
thorn bane
yes
ashen girder
How..?
thorn bane
the cheaper the power the less impactful it is
wind spade
if you're talking pure machine count
ashen girder
I mean, aside from breakpoints from recipes, I'm assuming you're not changing the recipes between OCing everything and not OCing anything.
wind spade
running clocked particle accelerator from coal gens would add A LOT of them, but running clocked constructors from nuclear plants would hardly add any
thorn bane
ok so im getting 0.14 buildings for 2500MW
how many buildings can you build with 2500MW
ashen girder
Does that include the fuel production?
thorn bane
50.4 uranium fuel rods and 12.6 plutonium fuel rods takes 1786 machines
wintry aurora
running clocked particle accelerator from coal gens would add A LOT of them, but...
It kind of begs the question of why you're even using coal gens to power particle accelerators...
wintry aurora
NPP?
thorn bane
nuclear power plant
ashen girder
Nuclear Power PLant
wintry aurora
Right.
thorn bane
or ~0.64 if you oc
im guessing the number of machinees you can run with 2500MW makes that 0.64 irrelevant
wind spade
It kind of begs the question of why you're even using coal gens to power particl...
indeed, but still is relevant to show the two extremes 😉
vestal bolt
Can anyone help me with my factorys i can make them work its just im so terible at keeping them organized i need to tear them down every so often i dont have any mega basses or anything
ashen girder
im guessing the number of machinees you can run with 2500MW makes that 0.64 irre...
How much power is left after those 0.64 machineS?
thorn bane
i dont know
ashen girder
Okay. Well, let's go with 2500MW anyway as a hard upper limit.
That can power 146 constructors at 250% clock speed.
That can power 625 constructors at 100% clock speed.
wintry aurora
Can anyone help me with my factorys i can make them work its just im so terible ...
Tearing down and upgrading from time to time is normal, and a lot of people aren't great at organiztion either.
ashen girder
So you're producing almost half of what I am. 365 units/min vs 625 units/min.
For the same power costs.
thorn bane
yes but you just build more power
thorn bane
and that takes less buildings than the extra constructors youre building
ashen girder
Okay, sure.
For the record, Greeny's tool's got 0.2 UFRs/minute at 26 buildings.
And that includes a bunch of refineries and blenders.
Versus my extra constructors.
thorn bane
ok in my save its on average 28MW per machine
so thats 87 machines at 100% per nuclear power plant
a nuclear power plant needs 7 machines to run
if you now use 34.4 machines instead of 87
you need 1.73% power
so thats 12 machines for power instead of 7
so instead of 87+7=94 you build 34+12=46 machines
thorn bane
For the record, Greeny's tool's got 0.2 UFRs/minute at 26 buildings.
thats counting a constructor at 0.0001% as 1 building
i measured with 50.4 and then divided by that
and now if you divide 94 by 46 you get 50%
tadaaaa
mathed
ashen girder
Okay, fair enough. 🤷♂️
I still don't build my power in a way where that makes any sense, but more power to you.
thorn bane
its obviously different if you use less power efficeint power generators though
i think thats where alot of people get the intuition from and then never update it
making 2500MW in coal takes alot more effort than 8 buildings
ashen girder
I mean, the intuition comes from power being something you generally build in large chunks, not in small chunks.
So it isn't a matter of building 12 machines vs 7 machines.
It's a matter of tapping a whole new node of something for more power.
thorn bane
ye true
ashen girder
In that context, it just doesn't make sense to burn twice as much power for no gain and half the buildings.
thorn bane
that also explains why alot of people think power is "free" in the lategame
ashen girder
Overbuilders. 😛
thorn bane
well its impossible to not overbuild nuclear xD
ashen girder
Don't make me go build a 0.2/min UFR factory just to prove you wrong.
thorn bane
i dont think ive ever see an single person go "oh damn i didnt build my nuclear big enough"
ashen girder
Don't make me do it!
frosty owl
The smallest convenient "chunk" for nuclear power is 150 uranium/min imo (3.6 fuel rods)
wind spade
ok here you go
ashen girder
You know my pettiness knows very few bounds!
thorn bane
mostly because using 30 uranium/min just feels kinda small even though it isnt xD
wind spade
% of saved buildings, depending on gen and buildings built
wind spade
the numbers were chosen as such:
total production is 5 buildings (at 100%) or 2 buildings (at 250%)
thorn bane
thats where the 73% comes from but ye
ashen girder
That's interesting data, though.
wintry aurora
Particle accelerators power also swings wildly, so....
wind spade
Particle accelerators power also swings wildly, so....
particle accelerator was averaged
thorn bane
Particle accelerators power also swings wildly, so....
the oc ratio is const though
always 2.5^0.6=173%
wind spade
yeah I took average consumption (as you'd probably build some power storages)
thorn bane
wait so in all cases you save buildings?
ashen girder
(C*a + C*b)/2 is the same as C*(a + b)/2, yeah?
thorn bane
even running a parcticle accelerator with coal pwoer?????
ashen girder
Looks that way. 😂
wind spade
wait so in all cases you save buildings?
it doesn't include building increase to generate fuel
thorn bane
i thought that was the whole point
wind spade
since that varies a lot depending on fuel and alt recipes
thorn bane
well duh
ashen girder
Yeah, that's a really hard number to actually get.
thorn bane
but thats the important number
wind spade
but I could add that too 🤷♂️
thorn bane
making fuel is way easier than consuming fuel
wind spade
alright, give me a minute lol
ashen girder
1 coal gen costs, what, 3/8 of a water extractor plus n/x of a miner?
wind spade
do we assume coal / diluted fuel / nuclear with "most resource efficient" recipes?
ashen girder
And if you're gonna do that, you should subtract out those power costs too..
thorn bane
wait if thats not included what even are these numbers?
ashen girder
Yeah, definitely most efficient recipes IMO.
thorn bane
ye
wind spade
TF relevant as well?
ashen girder
Ugh, gross, no.
ashen girder
I have the vehicle christmas skins, but no star production set up. 😦
ashen girder
wind spade
hm, calculating clocked power cost for production will be fun
also, what about miners?
wintry aurora
LOL!
wind spade
how to count miners? 🤔
ashen girder
also, what about miners?
Assume normal for simplicity's sake.
wind spade
normal mk3 max clocked?
ashen girder
Yep yep.
wind spade
but I'm gonna do max clocked for both 100% and 250% since miners make sense to clock
ashen girder
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
thorn bane
well you just calculate the power to make the fuel and then *1.73% for the 250% column
ashen girder
..not to be too pedantic, but it's either x1.73 or *173%. 😂
thorn bane
ops
ashen girder
*1.73%'s gonna be a ridiculously wrong number.
thorn bane
multiply by 2.5^0.6 🙂
wind spade
can someone check my math just to be sure I have the excel formulas right?
thorn bane
send me the sheet
wind spade
cost to run one coal gen (miner mk3 normal + water extractor):
100%: 7.525 MW
250%: 13.02145 MW
(only thing changing is the extractor's clock speed)
also I just realised that idk why I'm doing this xD
because I need both power required AND building count 🤔
I'm not sure if excel is enough for this
lusty tree
lulz excel is enough
wind spade
because if we're talking building count, then we need to count buildings to produce the fuel, which then cost power, which means we need more fuel, which means we have to recalculate buildings and we're stuck in infinite loop 🙂
ashen girder
You only need that cost once though, generally.
Once you've got it you can just use the static number.
wind spade
Once you've got it you can just use the static number.
not really
at least if I understand it correctly
ashen girder
I mean, it's not exactly correct, but it's close enough that it solves the problem.
thorn bane
because if we're talking building count, then we need to count buildings to prod...
well you calculate the machines/MW
and then multiply the extra MW you need due to constructors etc. by that machine count
ashen girder
Like, you know a Coal gen's always going to need 15/coal/min if you don't OC it. So you just need to figure out how many buildings it takes to produce that coal, and subtract the power they cost from the coal gen's output.
That's why you go with static costs for all extractors.
wind spade
yeah I'm just retarded and can't do math
thorn bane
it do be like that sometimes at 7am
ashen girder
The irony in there could make someone rich.
wind spade
you should all stop using my tools bcs they for sure can't give right numbers
ashen girder
That's it. Everyone go home. Throw it all away. We'll start over on Monday.
wind spade
rm -rf /var/www/www.satisfactorytools.com
thorn bane
fuck this
only bioburners from now on
ashen girder
Underclocked bioburners. 😉
thorn bane
🙂
wind spade
damn this table is getting complicated
ashen girder
YOU'RE GETTING COMPLICATED.
wind spade
that as well
I'm so not sure about this lol
so, one gen produces 75 MW
it costs 10.75 MW to produce coal + water for one gen
so in total it produces 64.25 MW
it also costs 0.4 buildings to produce coal + water for one gen
now for 100%, I have 5 buildings (by default) that eat 20 MW
is the correct formula to total number of buildings 5 + (1+0.4) * (20/64.25) ?
I guess it is, but want to check with people that can do math 😄
thorn bane
ye seems good
ashen girder
Yeah, I think so.
wind spade
updated numbers for coal then
ashen girder
Still matches the intuition y'all had.
thorn bane
i didnt think of it (but makes sense) that making power uses half the machines if you oc everything to 250%
wind spade
coal is kinda special case for this since it's just miner + water extractor
we'll see for fuel and others
thorn bane
true
ashen girder
I don't think it's that special, it's just simplest.
I really am curious to see the results, though.
Even if I still think it's a perverse way of looking at power and clockspeed. 😂
thorn bane
wait is it actually less machines to make nuclear power with uranium waste or plutonium power with plutonium waste?
(not that i ever would)
wind spade
I really am curious to see the results, though.
yeah give me some time, these stupid tools can't do overclocking
ashen girder
yeah give me some time, these stupid tools can't do overclocking
You should have words with the guy that wrote them.
wind spade
(not that it would help since it calculates the buildings as underclocked anyway)
ashen girder
wait is it actually less machines to make nuclear power with uranium waste or pl...
Wiki says max waste you can produce/minute is 2520. With 2520 waste/min, you can produce 59.7 PFRs/min.
That takes 1844 buildings + the buildings for all the uranium rods + the power plants.
thorn bane
wait its actually super similar
uranium waste is 4.4
plutonium waste is 4.0
for reference sinking the rods is 7.0
i could have half the machines if i didnt care for the environment 😦
actually alot of the buildings in plutonium are particle accelerators though
wind spade
how do you link a cell from different sheet in google excel
like =Sheet2:D4 for example
ashen girder
=Sheet2!D4?
wind spade
`=Sheet2!D4`?
thanks 😄
ashen girder
Don't thank me yet. 😂
wind spade
it works 🤷♂️
wind spade
I wouldn't thank if I didn't check first 😛
ashen girder
Fair, fair, fair.
wind spade
burned myself too many times like that
ashen girder
Same.
Trust, but verify.
Single quotes if there's a space.
='Sheet 2'!D4 for instance.
wind spade
I renamed it to Data to not deal with any of those
ashen girder
ashen girder
I enjoy how closely you're tracking the SWAG numbers from before that you shared. 😂
wind spade
wdym?
ashen girder
Like.. your wildly wrong numbers are 58% - 20-something%.
Basically the same, and moving the same egeneral directions.
wind spade
is this acceptable "best" turbofuel?
ashen girder
Is for me, sure.
wind spade
yeah idk the advanced recipes really, so I just put stuff in tools and check if there isn't something really weird
like e.g. coated plates 😛
thorn bane
yes
ashen girder
I like coated plates tho.
wind spade
I like them as well, but it's not what majority would build, so I guess doesn't make sense in terms of "general building saving %" analysis
thorn bane
i wouldnt do diluted fuel but im accepting that im weird in that regard 🙂
ashen girder
I still think that's such a weird preference. 😂
thorn bane
2 resources > 3 resources 🤷
ashen girder
I can't throw too many stones. That's why I like steel rotors.
thorn bane
im still amazed that the tool suggested me bolted frames with steel screws
ashen girder
I mean, it's optimizing for what it's optimizing for.
Can't really argue with that. 😂
wind spade
TF costs more per gen 🤔
ashen girder
It does.
thorn bane
but switching from frames to bolted frames was better than switchign from iron wire to fused wire
ashen girder
Wiki actually mentions that fact. 😂 People don't realize it.
thorn bane
wait what?
thorn bane
well its another of those cases where WR != good since sulfur is kinda free
wind spade
I meant power cost
wind spade
18.1 MW to produce fuel for 1 gen
25.4 MW to produce TF for 1 gen
ashen girder
"Sulfur is kinda free"? 🤔
thorn bane
god i really hate that your tool says 1 refinerery even though its 0.01
wind spade
god i really hate that your tool says 1 refinerery even though its 0.01
hover over the node 🙂
thorn bane
but then i need to add them up
ashen girder
Guessing he means the overview?
wind spade
which is why it's taking so long 😛
and for the overview imo it makes more sense to round the buildings up
ashen girder
Could put the exact number in the tooltip in the overview.
wind spade
water extractors are clocked
ashen girder
I mean, Sulfur's the main power limiter at the end of the game. 🤔
thorn bane
I mean, Sulfur's the main power limiter at the end of the game. 🤔
but thats the point its only used for power
so not using it in power means its "kinda free"
ashen girder
Max UFRs require 2100/min. Max PFRs require another 2268/min.
wind spade
for nuclear do we do uranium only?
ashen girder
There's only 6840 on the entire map..
thorn bane
for nuclear do we do uranium only?
wanna make both? xD
wind spade
no
wind spade
ffs
wind spade
ummmm
thorn bane
need to add the waste as input
ashen girder
This is a heck of a way to stress test your tools.
wind spade
need to add the waste as input
YOU DON'T SAY
thorn bane
🙂
ashen girder
Hey, you might not be familiar.
thorn bane
im gonna shut up now 🙂
wind spade
that's like number one thing I have to tell people when they ask me lol
ah nvm figured it out
best production needs 66.6666 repeating waste, so I input 66.6666, but had to do 66.6667
now please someone who's familiar with the game take this and turn it into normal recipes thx https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=FG9tKLkp0aqtI0WZZlZc
there's funky stuff like rubber concrete, so... 😄
thorn bane
concrete
plutonium alts
coke steel
rest is fine but minmaxy
ashen girder
Hey look, coated plate. 😂
thorn bane
if you wanna skew in its favor remove iron wire and cable-> insulated cable xD
wind spade
I disabled rubber concrete, coated+adhered plates, coke steel and both plutonium alts, what about this? https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=YZBBZKo1LzXrkeGcS6TW
ashen girder
That's a hit list of all my favorites. Damn man.
thorn bane
id leave the plate recipes in
wind spade
are we doing "best minmax" or "minmax players build usually"? 😛
thorn bane
eh just do minmax
wind spade
then I should put all the recipes back? 😄
thorn bane
wait theres no plates in that planner?
wind spade
you can check the cool new item overview
thorn bane
well you need to disable the plutonium recipes since otherwise it wont use all the waste
oh i was looking for rips ye youre right
idk just wet concrete i guess
ashen girder
There's RIPs too.
thorn bane
since oil WR > limestone WR but any build uses less limestone than oil
wind spade
There's RIPs too.
there's second link tho 😛
ashen girder
Oh. 🤷♂️
thorn bane
ye PCP -> plutonium fuel unit
which you dont do if you sink them
wind spade
so put oiled plates back in?
thorn bane
ye
wind spade
coke steel as well?
thorn bane
sure
wind spade
plut and rubber concrete kept disabled
thorn bane
yep
thorn bane
btw i still dont get how fuel has the same amount of machines than turbofuel
thorn bane
check this and I'm gonna start counting *sigh*
if only you could go to power overview and take that number 🙂
looks good
wind spade
if only you could go to power overview and take that number 🙂
yeah I can't really 😦
since it's "machines are underclocked"
which doesn't work for ratioing
thorn bane
lowest amount of buildings gives this
https://www.satisfactory-planner.net/?f=v3_U5,7fffffffbffdff7ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff,plutonium_fuel_rod:per_minute:12.6,,70380:100:0|28860:243:0|52860:133:0|30900:227:0|11040:637:0|10500:670:0|6840:1028:0|11700:601:0|9780:719:0|2100:3351:0|12000:586:0|0:1:1,0,0:0:0:100
wait is alumina solution actually giving more silica than the default recipes?
thats stupid
ashen girder
Isn't that the default recipe?
thorn bane
*default silica recipe
xD
ashen girder
Oh. You produce enough aluminum, you can get a lot of silica from it.
thorn bane
no as in making silica from bauxite is less machines than making silica from quartz
so if you optimize for buildings it uses alumina solution and just sinks the solution
ashen girder
Oh. Huh.
wind spade
doublechecked everything, was missing one 0 at blender count
thorn bane
ye its 37.5 in constructor
26.25 in assembler
but 50 in refinery 🙃
ashen girder
Yeah, that.. makes sense. Alumina produces 50/min, silica 37.5/min, cheap silica 26.25/min.
So if you want the most silica in the fewest buildings, alumina's the ticket.
thorn bane
ye kinda showing that just optimizing for building count is kinda stupid xD
ashen girder
Been trying to tell you that for awhile now. 😉
thorn bane
Been trying to tell you that for awhile now. 😉
btw did you read #math-and-meta message
wind spade
actual actual TF numbers_final_final_new_latest_final.png
thorn bane
ashen girder
btw did you read https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807...
I saw it but hadn't read it.
wind spade
I really really don't want to do the nuclear one tho 🤔
cinder silo
Nuclear!, there is light at the end of that tunnel, last building is going up for fuel creation 😄
ashen girder
What about it?
cinder silo
I haven't approached nitrogen just yet, the last building for the creation of uranium rods is going up now, then I look at reprocessing 🙂
wind spade
what building count is required to get 12 nitrogen gas (and how much MW that takes)
cinder silo
I wonder, is it worth sinking uranium fuel while I get the waste reprocessing worked out & build.
ashen girder
Go with 650 MW per 1800 Nitrogen.
wind spade
and building count?
ashen girder
wind spade
alr
ashen girder
That's assuming 6 pure nodes per well, max OC'd.
The numbers are higher than that, but I think that's a reasonable starting point.
Wiki has this completely unsourced number. 🤷♂️
thorn bane
its 2000 nitrogen per pressurizer
ashen girder
Is it exactly?
cinder silo
I'm hoping there is nitrogen at least remotely close to the grasslands & waterfall otherwise it's going to be one of those epic treks and transport ways again.
ashen girder
I'm hoping there is nitrogen at least remotely close to the grasslands & waterfa...
There is, actually.
wind spade
Wiki has this completely unsourced number. 🤷♂️
that's average when doing max map extraction
thorn bane
no on average
its 6 spots and 12000 total
cinder silo
Sweet! , that is a life saver, thankyou 😄
thorn bane
but a pressurizer is 650MW at 250%
so its 0.3MW per nitrogen/min?
ashen girder
How's that turn into 19.49MJ? 😂
thorn bane
i dont know?
ashen girder
If you don't, then who does? 😭
wind spade
it's not even two refineries if summed up
cinder silo
The reprocessing step should be trivial once I sort acids, since my existing control rods factory and others already take the last step in to account 🙂
wind spade
so 2 refineries per 1 NPP
thorn bane
whos Kwjcool321 
wind spade
person who did all the wiki analysis
ashen girder
Yeah.. seriously confused how he got that power cost for nitrogen.
cinder silo
This is how far i've got so far, the under construction bit is for iron ingots to make solid steel, then I can turn the whole thing on.
ashen girder
It's not even that wrong...
wind spade
Yeah.. seriously confused how he got that power cost for nitrogen.
max map extraction doesn't work?
ashen girder
No, that puts it at like 0.32?
ashen girder
12000 nitrogen takes 3900 MW..
wind spade
also maybe it's not updated, previously max nitrogen was 12300?
ashen girder
Did they change the power cost of pressurizers?
shadow prairieBOT
wind spade
doesn't seem so
candid tundra
damn, how to solve nitrogen gas production? 🤔
lol yeah I just didn't bother trying to guess that since it's so specific to the exact location/setup
wind spade
lol yeah I just didn't bother trying to guess that since it's so specific to the...
this is not even about automated stuff, it's just for manual calculations 😄 I have some ideas about tool tho 😉
candid tundra
I see, haha. I do think the best way out of any is just figure out max power for max production and then scale proportionally. But still that's gonna overestimate by maybe quite a bit.
wind spade
fyi this is number of machines needed to provide uranium fuel rod to 1 NPP + process waste (miners not yet included)
have come to terms with the nitrogen?
wind spade
Go with 650 MW per 1800 Nitrogen.
this still valid?
ashen girder
You could do 650/2000 if you want.
ashen girder
?
wind spade
7 buildings
ashen girder
Oh, uh. 51 / 6?
wind spade
8.5 buildings?
candid tundra
you could do like 649.82 * 6 / 12000 for MW per resource at max consumption
ashen girder
Sounds good to me. 😂
candid tundra
(for nitrogen)
wind spade
650 MW per 8.5 buildings per 2000 nitrogen then?
ashen girder
45 extractors, 6 pressurizers.
thorn bane
8.5
wind spade
650 MW per 8.5 buildings per 2000 nitrogen then?
this true? final call 😄
thorn bane
yep
btw math like this is why this game is the best singleplayer game ive ever played ❤️
bet you cant do math like this in factorio xd
wind spade
btw math like this is why this game is the best singleplayer game ive ever playe...
sweats when doing excel math for last hour and half and never played SF properly
yeah I agree
wind spade
bet you cant do math like this in factorio xd
you can, but most things are made by just one recipe, so there's not many "alternate paths". Exception being oil where it gets a bit tricky (byproducts and stuff)
there's other fun like productivity modules, miner productivity, endless techs, beacons, etc
basically there's 60% flat machine count save on clocking everything to 250% with nuclear power (unless I made a mistake somewhere)
thorn bane
well yes if power was free it would be 60% since 40%*2.5=100%
whats the gen machines per MW?
wind spade
wait that does mean that more than 60% is bullshit then
thorn bane
yep
cinder silo
D'oh, I didn't even consider clocking anything other than the miners.
wind spade
I'm not really sure where the mistake is 🤔
thorn bane
D'oh, I didn't even consider clocking anything other than the miners.
welcome to the last 3h of heated discussion xD
wind spade
yeah nobody did except for zyranex so we had to do math
not really sure where the error is if it's showing 60.1% 🤔
cinder silo
welcome to the last 3h of heated discussion xD
Oh well, sunk cost and all that, I'm not demolishing weeks of construction because of an oversight 😄
thorn bane
well theres tons of people that cheat in an ISC of shards
but most people do it for fps reasons
amelie of the sea did it for the max turbomotors in s3
kibits does it always pretty much
cinder silo
Probably explains where people get the shards, I just about got all my mins and the nuclear power stations water extractors clocked.
wind spade
well doggo farms are a thing
candid tundra
Wait so what is the discussion about? I think I didn't fully read what was going on
thorn bane
is it worth to overclock buildings
wind spade
Wait so what is the discussion about? I think I didn't fully read what was going...
% of buildings saved when clocking everything to 250%
thorn bane
in my opinion the time save you get from building less machines is more than enough to build more power
candid tundra
ohhhhh I see that makes sense now
wind spade
the table above shows % of buildings saved depending on which buildings and which gens we talk about
(includes all the buildings needed to produce fuel for the gens as well)
cinder silo
Once my nuclear is producing, I should go shard hunting and actually overclock more crap.
No point having an over abundance of power and being conservative with it.
thorn bane
I'm not really sure where the mistake is 🤔
you sure about 2.84 for the machines at 250?
all the other gens have ratios of ~50% for 100->250%
wind spade
yeah the way I read the table is that you probably shouldn't overclock stuff unless getting closer to nuclear (or knowing you'll have nuclear sooner or later)
that only applies to when you're sure you can spare the extra resources towards fuel production tho
thorn bane
but isnt the point that its always less buildings?
wind spade
yeah, but early you are very much power capped and the save % is smaller
wind spade
you sure about 2.84 for the machines at 250?
I mean even if it was wrong, it shouldn't be possible to show more than 60%, right? even if it was 0, it should still be just the 60% you said
oh nvm found the issue
it's 2.95 instead
I accidentally did /2.5 for miners and extractors
but those are fixed
since we assume they are max clocked for both 100 and 250
candid tundra
Is this assuming free/infinite shards? Because overclocking the entire nuclear production chain awakens a deep fear within me lol
thorn bane
yep
well if they arent you just do this until you run out of shards
i think?
hm what is the best to overclock if you have finite shards
cinder silo
I overclocked miners first as a priority because the number of nodes is finite, then water because of space & certain numbers.
candid tundra
Sorry if I'm rehashing things from this 3hr convo, lol, but imo I feel like the main downside of overclocking power buildings at any scale is the time it takes to gather slugs... I was considering it for my nuclear plant but it's just so many shards when building more buildings isn't that much more work.
wind spade
yeah, time to gather slugs is a big downside
thorn bane
also the amount of slugs on the map is nowhere near to overclock everything
candid tundra
yeah there's no way to do the whole chain lol
wind spade
but if we start adding everything together we're pretty much matehmatically solving the whole game which is pretty much impossible 😄
thorn bane
you dont have to do the whole chains though
just as much as you can
wind spade
it's the colored cell
thorn bane
awesome thank you
cinder silo
The ficsmas shards helped me out a ton by allowing me to clock the last of the nuclear gens water.:D
candid tundra
I see, so essentially you're trying to figure out where it is best to spend the shards you happen to have?
thorn bane
so fuel power needs half the machines as coal (if you have the alt recipes)
and nuclear requires a third of the machines of fuel
good to know
wind spade
awesome thank you
actually, let me make that for both 100 and 250
cinder silo
I clocked the water to cut the number of extractors from 315 to 210, 1 shard per.
candid tundra
This is completely unrelated but it would be a fun challenge to see how far you could get with a minimal coal (or even biofuel) setup by ridiculously underclocking everything
wind spade
@thorn bane this better
cinder silo
I've never ridiculously underclocked, but I have underclocked some machines to make the math work. (and I dislike odd numbered machines that don't go in to neat rows.
wind spade
did you want something else than number of buildings needed to produce X MW?
wind spade
alright I now also have something to show to people saying "but nuclear is too many buildings"
thorn bane
yes
cinder silo
I don't mind the nuclear building count, I just took it as a challenge and rose to it 😄
candid tundra
That's actually really interesting
wind spade
I mean yeah it's complexity is insane compared to turbofuel, but the gain you get from it...
thorn bane
I don't mind the nuclear building count, I just took it as a challenge and rose ...
thats the point
nuclear is using super few buildings
its just that everyone overbuilds xD
wind spade
also keep in mind the numbers are with processing of waste. With storing waste it would be even less
cinder silo
I'm no doubt over building, aiming to produce and burn 21 rods per minute.
wind spade
and no I'm not recalculating it with storing waste
thorn bane
hahaha
cinder silo
I'm not storing waste 😄
thorn bane
thx greeny ❤️
wind spade
(though I could do it for burning plut fuels)
(but that would be the inefficient recipe 😦 )
thorn bane
ye my rough math was that uranium waste and plutonium waste is roughly the same amount of machines
candid tundra
Ovverbuilding? What's that? What's the point of nuclear if you're not going to max out the map 🤔
thorn bane
maxing nuclear is like maxing coal
who dafuq is building coal gens worth of 30900 coal/min
candid tundra
lol
cinder silo
Burning 30900 coal is impractical, 2100 uranium isn't out of reach.
thorn bane
but ye building 5 particle accelerators at 100% takes 114 machines with coal
building 2 at 250% takes 77 machines
wind spade
expanded the table with "burning fuel rods". It's using the inefficient plut fuel rod recipe since I couldn't be bothered to recalculate everything
thorn bane
Burning 30900 coal is impractical, 2100 uranium isn't out of reach.
just because uranium has a way higher compression doesnt mean the max build isnt just as out of reach
cinder silo
Not that out of reach right now, at least for me, one more building and all that uranium becomes 21 fuel rods.
thorn bane
(isnt 50.4 max?)
cinder silo
I'm not using alts and I'm way too far in to the project, all 2100 uranium with my recipes gets 21
thorn bane
expanded the table with "burning fuel rods". It's using the inefficient plut fue...
wait why is the % lower for burning the rods
shouldnt it be more efficeint so the numbers should be even closer to 60%
cinder silo
Urgh bah, fell to my death expecting my hover pack to draw power from the ceiling grid (I never plugged the bloody thing in) ~whoops!
wind spade
wait why is the % lower for burning the rods
shouldnt it be more efficeint so th...
burning rods is more buildings (+50% NPPs)
oh I also realised I forgot to account for water needed for NPPs
cinder silo
I use 2 extractors per npp, 1 shard per.
thorn bane
I use 2 extractors per npp, 1 shard per.
huh?
180+120=300
you only need 1 shard in total
cinder silo
Hmm, shows I didn't look at the big picture math wise, damn that's going to free up 100 shards!, I'd clocked both to 150 haha.
I need to revisit that bit anyway, Mcgalleon gave me a suggestion to halve the pumps i'm using as well.
wind spade
also _final.png (also adds in water extractors for NPPs)
nuclear is still great, just not totally great
the sheet if someone wants to go through it and find all the errors https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BfHHBMAusRZy0q6DdWw4-B00irJlmp64ssamWoShj_g/edit#gid=0
also sourced the SFtools tabs in Data sheet
thorn bane
so ye OCing Constructors and just making more coal power results in 42% of the buildings needed
thats pretty good
wind spade
also results in more coal consumption though, so depends on player's preference
thorn bane
hm shouldnt the machine cost for one gen at 250% make 202% input instead of 100%?
since the gen will also take more to make more power
wind spade
...
patent briar
How much of a setup does it take to have a proper 7:8 pipe balancer? Is it literally as simple as just connecting all the pipes to each other?
patent briar
I want to evenly flow out (passing through valves at the output set to the right value) 6.75 pipes worth of fluid, to 8 pipes
thorn bane
8:3 "balancer"
patent briar
specifically its being piped into a train station so Id like to as close to evenly distribute the oil to all 8 of the inputs of my station
ashen girder
Pop a buffer before each one?
patent briar
8:3 "balancer"
Does it work just as well though for when I am balancing up and not down?
Im going up in pipes (so less fluid per pipe), not compressing down to less pipes
ashen girder
If you buffer it, the buffer will saturate the pipe as long as it's able.
thorn bane
should ™️ work by just having a pipe between them all
patent briar
So I have 4050 oil coming in, which is going to be 6x 600/min pipes + a 450/min pipe
I want to distribute it to be 8 pipes on the output, with 506.25/min each
Ok but how well will it actually work in application?
wind spade
hm shouldnt the machine cost for one gen at 250% make 202% input instead of 100%...
this changes EVERYTHING
thorn bane
ye i know xD
wind spade
(because I also realised that for clocked gens I accidentally didn't increase fuel consumption)
thorn bane
id do this and pray to mcgalleon that it works 🤷
ashen girder
Buffer buffer buffer.
thorn bane
Buffer buffer buffer.
buffer?
ashen girder
Buffer.
wind spade
ye i know xD
🤔
thorn bane
interesting
wind spade
yeah so don't clock particle accelerators if you're powering them with coal
but also, particle accelerators give you 21% savings at most
(well 28%)
thorn bane
well normaly you dont just build particle accelerators
you have some other buildings
wind spade
and clocking pretty much anything other than constructor or smelter in coal stage is under 50% savings (which is what you claimed)
ashen girder
Only accelerator.
patent briar
Im debating whether or not to build a second train station so I can achieve 100% efficiency on my oil throughtput
ashen girder
Buffer
thorn bane
and clocking pretty much anything other than constructor or smelter in coal stag...
i claimed 50% for nuclear
patent briar
buffer wont fix 100% efficiency problem
you need 2 train stations to get 100% efficiency
wind spade
i claimed 50% for nuclear
yeah, doesn't work for manufacturer and higher
ashen girder
It'll fix your pressure concerns though.
patent briar
Well, at least if you are fully loading the stations
thorn bane
but you dont just have manufacturers
you have a mix
so unless youre 100% only building manufacturers its gonna be 50%
patent briar
I have to actually make the spreadsheet at some point to calculate the maximum true throughput a train station can achieve based on mk5 belts and stack size
wind spade
I wonder which ratio of buildings could be used to average the savings
ashen girder
thorn bane
i did my initial math with 28MW per building
cause thats what my planner has
with that its 45% at coal
58% at nuclear
wind spade
just pure averaging the savings (except for PA which I counted only the first row), it's these
but you probably have tons of refineries and way less PAs 😄
thorn bane
but you dont use the same amount of manufacturers than you use constructors
wind spade
hence why I said
I wonder which ratio of buildings could be used to average the savings
it's per-setup I guess
wind spade
what's so magic about 28?
thorn bane
thats my average power use/machine in my planner
wind spade
I see
thorn bane
also the PA cases is just kinda weird cause youre comparing 5 buildings that are PA to 7 buildings to make a nuclear power plant work (but those are not PAs)
wind spade
fixed one more math issue
nuclear's slightly better now
than it was before math issue was fixed
thorn bane
now the plutnoium rod burner as is actually closer to 60%, as i expected it to be
wind spade
it's probably a bit more since crap alts
thorn bane
aslong as its more i dont care xD
was just weird that it was less
wind spade
also this is cursed lol https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/rdj3cn/protip_store_your_excess_nuclear_waste_in_the/
thorn bane
hahahaha
patent briar
So it seems you simply cannot exceed 648 items/min per belt feeding into train depots at 100 stack size
I gotta calculate now for fluids
Assuming the wikis 25s loading time is still correct
thorn bane
got dammit ondar
ashen girder
Assuming the wikis 25s loading time is still correct
You need to pick a cycle time, too.. if the station is unoccupied for 5 minutes vs 5 seconds..
patent briar
You need to pick a cycle time, too.. if the station is unoccupied for 5 minutes ...
Doesnt matter for the "Exceed" calc, this is the "maximum" you can achieve with perfect setup
ashen girder
And for 500 stack size?
patent briar
749.55 items/min per belt for 500 stack size
thorn bane
Assuming the wikis 25s loading time is still correct
its 28s i would assume 30
here is me talking about it with the guy that put 25 in the wiki
#math-and-meta message
patent briar
kk I will punch in 28s instead lets see here
thorn bane
famous last words
ashen girder
It says 27 for me...
wind spade
11/21/2021 triggered 😡
patent briar
at 28s delay, 746.05 items/min for 500 item stack size
ashen girder
thorn bane
thats why you use an ISC with 2 connections to the station
then its 780 (well actchually....)
patent briar
ISC?
thorn bane
yes i just rounded up from 27. something cause you want to make sure you can put stuff in
Industrial Storage Container
patent briar
That doesnt fix the issue
buffers wont help you exceed this value, its the hard upper cap for a single train station setup
Buffers allow you to hit this upper cap though, but thats it, cant exceed it no matter what, per station
wind spade
I assume per platform?
ashen girder
`11/21/2021` triggered 😡
It was updated today, yeah? 
patent briar
and for fluids using 28s as the delay, hard upper cap of 444 kL/min per pipe
wind spade
It was updated today, yeah? <:jace_smile:527160323644456960>
you mean instead of Dd (21st = 21), you would do dD (21st = 12) ? 😛
ashen girder
You wanna do dates backwards, do dates backwards. 🤷♂️
wind spade
that's evil
patent briar
-
1.33... min to 100% a freight car with 2x pipes (1600/1200)
-
28/60 mins delay
= 74.07% uptime
600*74.07% = 444.444
thorn bane
wind spade
also something I'd believe americans would do
patent briar
your max items/min per platform is functional of stack size
ashen girder
It's about time spent loading the train is not spent loading the platform. It's got an asymptote.
patent briar
Bigger stack size = more efficient, small stack size = less
So as stack size goes down, max items/min it can handle goes down
thorn bane
didnt sev and me do the math for this?
hold on
patent briar
Since it takes less to fill up a freight car
patent briar
Round trip time has no bearing on this, that simply lowers your throughput
This formula is your maximum
The absolute max you are capable of no matter what
Basically, this is your choke point, exceeding this will just result in backing up of items before the train station, even with a buffer, if you exceed it the buffer will just slowly back up over time
The real solution is to either:
A. Increase the size of your train station and add more platforms, to distribute items more such that you now are below the choke point
B. Actually make two train stations that all items split and go into both, to once again lower each individual input below the choke point
The only variable for this formula is stack size, assuming Mk5 belts. Theoretically belt tier is another variable but by the time this matters its safe to assume you are using mk5 belts
thorn bane
im getting 747.8 plugging in the values from the wiki page
thorn bane
well thats what i got when i pressed stop and start on a google timer
you can trust that how ever you want xD
patent briar
If I swap to 27.08s delay then I get this
thorn bane
👍
patent briar
I mean we can calculate the exact delay by just making an item sink loop that pumps 780/min x2 into a platform, takes it to another, sinks it, and let it run for a bit and check its "items per minute" value on the output
thorn bane
mk5s are not 780 though
patent briar
Well doesnt actually matter
thorn bane
every belt at max capacity as throughput issues
patent briar
We are still well above the choke point even if mk5s are slightly off
Should still be exceeding 750/min or whatever with Mk5s
thorn bane
well at that point you can just start and stop a timer xD
patent briar
No because that wont be precise enough, will have human error
thorn bane
or just assume 30s to be save 🤷
thorn bane
but that depends on mk5 speed right? which we dont know
if you could make 300/min of something
patent briar
No, stops mattering once we exceed the choke point
Or well I guess it is your right
thorn bane
oooh i see
patent briar
Fluid freight cars really should be like, a lot bigger ideally
Even at only 100 stack size for items it takes 2.05min to Mk5 belt a full car of items.
Whereas Mk2 pipes move a freight car of fluid in only 1.33min
So...
At 6.75 pipes of oil coming in, that works out to a bit over 506 oil/min per pipe.
Which means I am exceeding my platforms hard cap, so I /have/ to split my oil out to two seperate train platforms
thorn bane
ok how the hell do i time this
my first guess was to do a wait until full train and then measure the throughput
but the issue is they dont actualyl wait until full they wait untill all the stacks are in but the last can be 64/200
patent briar
oh shit seriously?
thorn bane
it still gives a decent guess though (31*200+64)/((31*200+64)/1560+(x/60))=1402 gives 27.15 seconds
ye i was looking at the trains and its never completly full
also it now updated to 1401 throughput and thats already a change from 27.15 to 27.34
so its pretty much impossible to get a number thats more exact than 1 decimal place
patent briar
Is it moderately random or at least consistently close to the same extra?
thorn bane
it takes like 4min to be full hold on xD
but so far it was anything between 1 and 70 i think
this time it was 4
but ye anyway not good enough to measure the docking time
thorn bane
even then the display of 1401 items/min already makes the loading time be +-0.2 seconds
while waiting my buffer filled up to 712 items
so filling at 1560 thats 27.4 seconds
patent briar
So yeah it seems like mostly its a matter of just having 2 loading stations, or just enough platforms to get yourself below the hard upper cap
thorn bane
well the limit is ~1500 per station (if its 500 stack size) so you just keep adding stations until youve made your throughput
shipping 4000/min? 3 stations
ez
patent briar
Basically yeah
Though for single station approach you also need buffers, double station approach you dont need buffers as the "other" station is the buffer
so your choice which is easier, for fluids fitting the buffers in is actually kind of a pain
This should be a solid way to load balance 7:8 strictly right? I just have to set each of the valves to be the target flow rate right?
So in this case 506.25 each
@thorn bane Try with fluid perhaps btw? It might actually do a proper 100% since it doesnt have a "Stack size"
thorn bane
498.45
you only use the stacksize to calculate Time to fill
for fluids thats just 1600/600
patent briar
Point being you wont get that "extra" problem, hopefully
it should actually wait until >1600 in the station and load full carts each time
thorn bane
oooooh thats what you meant
patent briar
which will give you better precision no?
thorn bane
ye true
now i have to build a fluid train though 😦
patent briar
:x
I think this should work now
(half the pipes go to this one, the other half to an identical one beside it)
This should allow me to achieve 100% throughtput of my oil coming in
Shoot nope, not good enough still
I need to have it split into 16 pipes before, or at, the buffers
I need to be able to jump up to full throughput to actually be hitting 100%
Okay... attempt #2... this one should work
subtle crescent
Hmm... working on this FICSMAS factory.
38 Constructors with 25 Gift Trees feeding into it... to make 375 Branches/min... what do I set the Constructors to?
38/25 = 1.52, according to the in-game calculator...
thorn bane
it just works if you leave them at 100%
if you really want to save 0.7MW underclock the last constructor to 50%
or if you want to save another 1.1MW underclock all of them to 375/38/10 = 98.68%
vast jungle
yeah, better do the adjustment on the last machine in the manifold than on everyone
wind spade
yeah, better do the adjustment on the last machine in the manifold than on every...
actually the other way around
thorn bane
or just dont 🤷
like you do in every other game that doesnt have overclocking
vast jungle
actually the other way around
yes, if you do it first the manifold find its equilibrium quicker... but wherever you do it, do it on one machine
oblique hollow
Okay... attempt #2... **this** one should work
Thats a bit high.... Got pumps?
wind spade
yes, if you do it first the manifold find its equilibrium quicker... but whereve...
I think the discussion was about saving power, not about speed to fill
oblique hollow
Thats a total of like 20 m
wind spade
but also, I don't think there will be much difference in time to fill manifold depending on different clock speeds. I'd say it may even be faster if you underclock all equally
fierce ruin
it will be even faster if you feed the manifold from more than one entrypoint
vast jungle
just today I had my complete rubber production blocked because one damned Refinery had been set to the wrong clock value
oblique hollow
Lul
rose steeple
Apparently my maths skills are great rn.
So with hypertube cannons I found the formula for how fast you fly out n number of entrances.
os = max(is, 15 m/s) * 1.2^(n - 1)
And I just transformed it such that I can find how many entrances are needed to reach a certain speed.
n = (log(os / 15 m/s) / log(1.2)) + 1
Yay logarithms 😄
So to reach 4 km/s you need 32 entrances.
oblique hollow
Now adjust it so you know how far you will fly with a hypertube cannon at angle Phi
rose steeple
Could you gimme the acceleration constant due to gravity?
