math-and-meta

[smoky patio]

See here

[fierce ruin]

Just recycle all waste and sink plutonium rods. 🙂

[smoky patio]

If you have an industrial level nuclear plant, then sure.

[frosty owl]

No, at any level really xD

As long as you got the tech for it, pluto is your best bet

[smoky patio]

hm...

[fierce ruin]

I originally wanted 200/m of each, but that works out to .3333333 and .6666666 numbers on things.
Bumping it to 300's was just... too clean to not do.

[frosty owl]

Takes less to set up than the corresponding uranium part too, imo

[gray steppe]

I just dump my waste right next to the actual reactors cuz I'ma have a hazmat suit on there anyways

Some I will dump in the uranium mines for the same reason

In storage units of course

[fierce ruin]

@fringe pawn if this was Val, just load your character with Nuke Waste and then log in to a different world and leave it all there.

[smoky patio]

Val?

[frosty owl]

That's what tempts me towards alloys but...
Pure's efficiency 🥲
Pure iron is fine given the output, but pure copper... for just the extra 2 ingots every 6 ores or so...

[fierce ruin]

Valheim. He'll get what I am saying.

[fierce ruin]

Iron Alloy is a great recipe and people shit on it for reasons I don't believe in 🙂
Copper Alloy sucks (imo) and I have only 1 instance in which I use it.

[smoky patio]

oh haha, bad Viking terraria. I know about that game. :)

[fierce ruin]

Bad? Ok... we can fight about this or agree to disagree about one of the best games I have played in years.

[wind spade]

All alt recipes have their use and they are only "good" or "bad" in certain situations

[fierce ruin]

Idk... Heavy Flexible Frames is kind of asscheeks when you have Heavy Encased...

[smoky patio]

I mean, I think a few recipes are direct upgrades.
Encased Pipe is one of them.

[gray steppe]

I don't like most alt recipes cuz I usually already have an entire system that's as efficient as I could get it, and having to tear it all down or rework it is a pain

[frosty owl]

Given the output of pure iron, I don't feel much pain using pure over alloy
It's copper that hurts for me, 1 foundry Vs 2+ refineries
Also, copper is vein scarcer than iron makes it easy for me to "sacrifice" iron to save on machine count in this case

[fierce ruin]

There are a few that are purely "good", but most are situational.

[smoky patio]

Just get the alts before you start.

[wind spade]

Different resources - different needs

[tropic hawk]

I just did a look-see at ingot recipes. Here is my conclusion
In terms of Ingots per MWh, you are gonna want to go with the Default recipie
In terms of maximizing Iron Ingot to Iron ore, go with iron alloy
In terms of maximizing output to valuable input, go with pure iron ingot

[fierce ruin]

By this definition, "pain" is an integral part of the gameplay loop.

[wind spade]

All alt recipes have a downside

[fierce ruin]

HOR alt recipe has a downside?

[smoky patio]

Encased pipe doesn't have a downside.
It's a direct upgrade.

[tropic hawk]

No. That is the perfect one

[wind spade]

Complexity

[fierce ruin]

I hate it, personally.
I think it is broken.

[tropic hawk]

exactly. it saves steel

[smoky patio]

and power, and space, and coal

[frosty owl]

And steel

[tropic hawk]

Well we are all titled to our own beliefs. Your's is wrong, but we can all have them.

[gray steppe]

Also I just learned that in the new update trains will be able to crash into one another and derail, which will be a problem because my entire rail network vores itself

[tropic hawk]

you just learned that?

[gray steppe]

Yeah

I haven't played in a lil bit

[wind spade]

Uses pipes instead of beams 🤷 can be a downside to some people

[fierce ruin]

It is one of the only recipes that is a must-use-always.
That's a bit broken to me.
Because once you have it, you cannot start an oil setup without using it unless you just hate yourself.

[tropic hawk]

the only downside is if your chain is really complicated and also uses steel beams

[smoky patio]

At this point that isn't alt recipes having a downside, that's just recipes bro.

[wind spade]

What if a person already has beams automated but doesn't have pipes? 🤷

[wind spade]

See above

[smoky patio]

That's not the recipes fault.
How does that factor to it's power alone?

[tropic hawk]

you never have to do anything in satisfactory. If I wanted, I could use the default silica recipie to make aluminum ingots, wasting tons of quartz. Nobody would stop me.

[wind spade]

It's still a downside tho

[frosty owl]

Eh, only over a certain size, really
Self-sustainable setups making plubber and power by turning by-product HOR into fuel are a thing ^^

[gray steppe]

That giant tower is where I put my waste

[tropic hawk]

plubber?

[smoky patio]

What if a person has one thing but not another?
Wow... it's almost like you described the concept of scarcity that applies to every recipe in the game.

[frosty owl]

Plastic/rubber

[tropic hawk]

ah

[fierce ruin]

Hmmmm.... now I want to make a nuke waste storage facility in the shape of a giant toilet and paint it white....

[tropic hawk]

resource scarcity. Almost a central part of the game...

[smoky patio]

Yeah, I don't understand how that could be argued to affect only alt recipes.

[tropic hawk]

I am actually making a blog to figure out the best line up of recipies for each product depending on the production line and goals of that line

[smoky patio]

If it affects all recipes, then it's not worth discussing in a recipes raw power, or "Upgrade/balance" standpoint.

[fierce ruin]

Blogging in 2021? 😮

[wind spade]

Still applies to that person's preferences. Build a factory that uses intermediates that I already have or build new intermediates for new recipe. It's a valid point for choosing a recipe

[errant sable]

is there a downside to using Stitched Iron Plates with Iron Wire?

[smoky patio]

mhm, personal preferences, also something not worth into account when we are talking objectives.

[fierce ruin]

Not really.

[smoky patio]

space and power.

[errant sable]

it's better than default for both space and power

[fierce ruin]

Stitched Plates with Iron Wire is still the cheapest recipe for RIPs.

[tropic hawk]

Other than space and speed, not really.

[frosty owl]

I agree on that
The fact that changing ti another recipe "can be negative for you since you'd need to rework stuff" shouldn't affect he value of the recipe itself
The "downside' of needing to rework is in changing the recipe not in wether the recipe is different or not, imo

[tropic hawk]

hey, I am not the only one who shortens the name!

[smoky patio]

Is it? I thought you had to use two constructors for the wire, without overclocking?

[wind spade]

You can't just call recipe objectively good, that's my point. You can say it's good in resource efficiency or power or space, but no recipe is 100% good.

[fierce ruin]

People don't?

[tropic hawk]

I have had very long chats with them, and stopped playing with them

[errant sable]

i think?

[frosty owl]

Not better than bolted (with steel screws ofc) though :P

[fierce ruin]

Smart.

If people don't know what RIPs, EIBs, HSCs, AILs, HMFs, FMFs, and PCCs are... they should stop. 😏

[tropic hawk]

its less than the screws (only defaults)

[smoky patio]

No seriously you really can say, "this recipe is objectively better."
There is no guarantee that it'll be more convenient for your factory but it is by every definition a mathematically better recipe.

[fierce ruin]

#CONVIENTANT

[wind spade]

only for the parameters that you can mathematically define tho. Which doesn't mean all parameters a player can have

[smoky patio]

Alright whatever, you win.

[tropic hawk]

Reinforced Iron plate, Encased Industrial Beam, Heavy Modular Frames, Fused Modular Frames, Pressure Conversion Cubes, Why do you shorten AI Limiter? Its fairly short already? and I don't recognize HSC

[frosty owl]

High Speed...

[tropic hawk]

ah, Highspeed connectors. sorry, im still waking up

[fierce ruin]

High-Speed Connector.

And because AIL is what I have always called them. Idk. Simpler to drop the "imiter"

[deft lichen]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Acronyms

[frosty owl]

Here comes the self-promo

[fierce ruin]

@deft lichen please add AIL to that list.

[deft lichen]

will do

[wind spade]

I'm not saying that the recipe is bad. I'm just saying that every player has their own preferences, so you can't really say "this recipe is good for everyone" (which is the same as saying "this recipe is objectively good" imo). I completely agree that the recipe is better in power, resource efficiency and space, but that still doesn't make it "always better".

[smoky patio]

Already said you win bro.

[wind spade]

never heard AIL 🤔

[frosty owl]

Btw, @wind spade, pls add a note for the menu to disappear automatically if one clicks away from it on mobile (now one has to click on the menu button for that) 🙏

U5 version ofc

[fierce ruin]

You've been in here long enough I know you've seen me say it multiple times.
Whether your brain cared enough to commit it to memory is another thing.

[deft lichen]

I haven't heard AIL used either but it makes sense and fits, so 🤷

[wind spade]

that assumes I read all messages, which I obviously don't

[fierce ruin]

@deft lichen also add "Poggers" for Programmable Splitters.

😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏

[deft lichen]

[fierce ruin]

LOL

[smoky patio]

Anyone can add to the wiki
Just do it yourself and get a ban.

[wind spade]

not sure what do you mean by this? 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Bans are not poggers though.

[smoky patio]

How old do you have to be before saying poggers becomes cringe. 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Poggers is never cringe.
Poggo on the other hand....

[frosty owl]

When you click on the menu button (the menu with codex, calculator and such) and tap in another part of the menu, the menu doesn't disappear unlike many other apps
It's a handy feature, you open the menu and that goes away if you even just scroll through the page, but also just a very small thing, so dunno if you even care xD

[fierce ruin]

@deft lichen thank you for adding AIL ❤️

[deft lichen]

np

[wind spade]

ah. Well mobile isn't my priority (as that would mean reworking 50% of the app to work nicely on mobile), but I'll have a look at that one

[smoky patio]

I feel like half that article is just the brainchild of sevrahn's slow WPM brain,

[fierce ruin]

Wow.

[smoky patio]

Yeah I said you type slow. Deal with it 😎

[fierce ruin]

Direct incorrect insults are direct.

[deft lichen]

😐 I'll go back to building my coal power plant

[fierce ruin]

ENJOY!

Compacted Coal Power Plant 😏

[smoky patio]

CCPP

[frosty owl]

||#off-topic-general ||

[fierce ruin]

||#Poggers||

[lofty stump]

This being the Math channel - I like getting my ratio's right when I can. I have screws coming out and need about 1/3 of them to one area, and the rest to another.

If I do a single splitter with 2 outputs (split by 1/2s) will it auto balance out, for lack of a better term?

Or do I need use all outputs and send 1 belt to location 'a', then do 2 outputs and then merge them to send to location 'b' so it actually splits by 1/3s instead of 1/2?

[fierce ruin]

Yes it will auto-balance.

[obsidian matrix]

but it might take a while

[fierce ruin]

Pre-feeding will make it take less of a while.

[lofty stump]

thanks both of you 🙂

you saved me some spaghetti

[ashen girder]

Ah, a sensible human. Unlike those people that are like "I want a 38 to 14 balancer because I just think they're neat and like clipping and spaghetti."

[fierce ruin]

I want a 69 to 420 balancer.

Just to say I did it.

[ashen girder]

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

[lofty stump]

I think that's sitting out on the coast near Boca Chica, TX

[fierce ruin]

I will leave it then. I have no desire to ever enter TX.

[lofty stump]

I don't blame you.

[fierce ruin]

How many plutonium rods/min does the Max setup take?

[ashen girder]

More than 0.3.

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.

[fringe pawn]

22.4

[fierce ruin]

Trying to determine a good PCC/m so I can design that outpost properly.

[jade minnow]

50,4 uranium + 22,4 plutonium

[fierce ruin]

So I need 25/m for turbo motors, and 22.4/m for plutonium rods.

Hmmm.

Even 50/m should be fine I think.
Or should I go for 60...

[ashen girder]

I think at least 63 69.

[fierce ruin]

Reasoning?

[ashen girder]

Just to be low-key annoying, that's all. 😂

[fierce ruin]

In that case I would do 69.

[ashen girder]

True.

[fierce ruin]

69 it is then.

Which means I need to make outpost 2 pump out 169 HMFs..

[jade minnow]

Is turbo electric or turbo pressure motor more resource efficient?

How do I read those tables below the recipe section on the wiki page of an item? The bold numbers are the best?

[ashen girder]

In what context? Total map usage? Total points per minute map consumption? Power?

[jade minnow]

Total map usage

[ashen girder]

The WP total is what you want then. That compares resources a recipe requires based on how comparatively rare those resources are. The lowest WP total means it uses the most common resources.

[fierce ruin]

Not doing 169 HMF.
Heavy Encased only works cleanly into multiples of 45.

So I'm either doing 180 or 135.

[ashen girder]

180 then.

[fierce ruin]

Should be doable.

Need to find an assload of limestone though...

[ashen girder]

Wet concrete? 😄

[fierce ruin]

Rubber Concrete or Fine Concrete would probably be better for this, I'd need to look.

And there are those 2 random Qtz nodes in the Dunes...

@frosty owl

[fringe pawn]

That'd fill 206~ ISCs per minute. Nice.

[versed violet]

Performance question:
Is there a rule-of-thumb how far should the factories be from each other to see benefits vs one big megafactory?

[sullen cloud]

I‘d say best is to build within these subtiles (squares) of the map. Not sure when the next subtile is loaded when you’re approaching it

[versed violet]

As in build each one in separate subtile?

[sullen cloud]

yeah

[ashen girder]

Didn't Jace mention using smaller tiles? 🤔

[sullen cloud]

the map loading itself is even more divided (subtiles in these squares), but this should be a quite safe way to do it

[versed violet]

does tile dividing affect cpu load, or gpu only?

[junior imp]

m.....of course my factory chills inbetween to subtiles

why wouldnt it ....

[wintry aurora]

Funny that 'paradise island' isn't even included in any of that.

[versed violet]

You mean the "No Man's Land" in bottom left?

[ashen girder]

You mean Murder Island.

[wintry aurora]

Yep, it's called that on the map, hence the quotes.

[ashen girder]

That's because it isn't actually useful area. 😐

Unless they expand the map borders.

[wintry aurora]

There's also some chunks of the east coast marked as white, but not actually part of a subtile, probably an oversight.

[versed violet]

Lies! My Nuke plant and waste storage resides there!

[ashen girder]

OR is that where the boss crab's gonna be? 😮

[fringe pawn]

Do we know there will only be one crab boss location?

[ashen girder]

We know literally nothing about it.

Except that it isn't in game because of fauna AI pathing.

And it has babies.

[fringe pawn]

Right, once they get its behavior sorted, it seems like there are many suitable locations for it. Blue crater, many of the big lakes which already have clusters of crabs, and of course the oceans.

[ashen girder]

The Mesa that's also marked as white with a huge unfinished lake..

We also don't know if it'll be, like, summonable or just be there and we can go smack on it, or what.

[wintry aurora]

How would you guys manifold the outputs of these using MK3 belts?

My idea is doing some sort of crossfeeding double loop, but I'm not sure that's even possible at all, and definetly overly complicated.

[oblique hollow]

depends, how much do they produce in total

[frosty owl]

🤔?

[wintry aurora]

They're all set to 100%, so, 240

[oblique hollow]

then mk 3 works fine

[wintry aurora]

Oh, I thought i'd need double belts, okay, heh.

[oblique hollow]

you are well below the 270

[wintry aurora]

Not sure why the heck I wanted a complicated double loop.

[fierce ruin]

Max Miners 🙂

Also home, so can test manifold 1:1 sushi in a bit

[versed violet]

You will build smelters in alternating directions, then loop the whole belt around the section and pour some ore on one side and split the product out on the other?

[fierce ruin]

No.

Think of it like manifolding iron down a line of smelters.

Now make those smelters foundries and the belt alternates iron-copper-iron-copper perfectly.

Still 1 splitter per pair.

No loops, no overflow. Exact ratios.

[versed violet]

sounds like an explosion waiting to happen

[ashen girder]

But.. why?

[fierce ruin]

Short version? Saves space and cuts belt cost/complexity in half.
Long version? Want to see if it works, many other applications if you can manifold 1:1 sushi.

[ashen girder]

🤔 It only cuts belt cost in half if you're not saturating the belt, right? And are you thinking of doing it with just regular splitters?

[fierce ruin]

Roll up to the last time I mentioned sushi if you want the full breakdown. Not feeling like re-typing all of it.

[ashen girder]

Good start? #math-and-meta message

[fierce ruin]

Yes.

Also does U4 music ever come back or are we stuck in a U5 new music loop world?

[oblique hollow]

its odd. it really does seem to be just u5

[ashen girder]

I've gotten the U4 music too.

I thought I had at least. 😅

[oblique hollow]

it seems to prefer u5 right now

[ashen girder]

I assume it's location dependent?

[oblique hollow]

not really

ive gotten u5 tunes everywhere so far

[fierce ruin]

I'm on runs from RD through NF to DD.
Never changes.

I'd be fine with the ultimate goal being each biome has its own music.

But right now I just want a toggle...

Because my brain auto-plays the U4 music and it's confusing itself while listening to the U5 music.

[ashen girder]

Godspeed with the sushi belt. I remember a long, long time ago trying to science out how splitters decide to output things since we didn't have smart splitters that worked worth a damn, and coming to the conclusion it wasn't reliable enough to do anything with.

Curious to see if you'll have more luck, and if they've changed anything around it.

[fierce ruin]

"Decide"?

You're saying they don't just go L-M-R repeat?

[ashen girder]

I don't think they did reliably if a line is backed up. That's where it gets messy.

But, like I said, that's a long time ago, my memory sucks, and there's a pretty good chance they've changed things.

Oh yeah.. I forgot about that. Splitters can't split onto different speed belts evenly.

At least, they couldn't 2 and a half years ago.

[fierce ruin]

@frosty owl do you want me to test this with the splitters as close to the machines as possible or give them some space?

[sullen cloud]

Are you the guy who once build a maze with hidden critters in it?

[ashen girder]

Nope. Nothing so creative, sadly.

[sullen cloud]

Too bad. I still have that save. Full of jumpscare moments.

[fringe pawn]

The game's pop-in problems create enough jumpscares on their own

[sullen cloud]

Yeah. But back in the day there weren’t these isuues

[thorn bane]

i havent done much research on splitters but atleast mergers work L-R-L-R reliably aslong as you use <mk5 #screenshots message

[fierce ruin]

During wind-up, I can confirm what @ashen girder - splitters are not doing things evenly.

[thorn bane]

and youre sure you lines arent clogged?

this sounds wrong
isnt 72 reactors 72*16 fuel generators? and not 144

[fierce ruin]

Cancel this. Fixed it.

[thorn bane]

how?

[fierce ruin]

Which conversation are you having atm?

[thorn bane]

this one

[fierce ruin]

They weren't behaving because I had a different belt speed from the main line.

If all belts are equal they evenly split things.

Only thing not behaving atm is the very final machine, but waiting for full spool-up to see if that's just a factor of it being the final machine.

[thorn bane]

from my math:
100GW = 666 gens = 3000 TF = 87.5 Refineries 76 Blenders = 163 machines
100GW = 40 nukes = 8 rods/min = 2 foundries 55 refineries 49 assemblers 33 manuf. 35 constr. = 174 machines
but like you also need 666 fuel gens xD

[fringe pawn]

The argument for turbofuel is that you don't need to build it all at once. Just add 50 generators at a time as needed. Higher build count in the end, but it reuses existing systems and is vastly simpler.

[thorn bane]

i mean so can you with nuclear if you just manifold the machines
and since all of the things are <780 you dont even need to worry about multiple belts, you literally only add machines to manifolds

but ye honestly i didnt expect TF to use less machines to produce than nuclear

[fringe pawn]

It's also 2 raw resources versus several.

[thorn bane]

sure ofc logistic wise its harder

i guess 40 nukes is also 200 water extractors

[sullen cloud]

No 40 overclocked ones 😊

[muted crypt]

yeah I regret setting up 800 fuel generators in my U4 save

but the numbers worked so perfectly 😭

[thorn bane]

ye stupid .3 xD

[river night]

until you find out that fuel at 100% is hard to maintain, fluid wise, and you just run a few steps lower and round down to avoid failures 😄

[sullen cloud]

I am so fed up with placing refineries or generators. Have to be thousands since game released

[fringe pawn]

300-500 fuel generators is probably as much as I would ever suggest. That allows you to build a factory that can get you all statues in under a week.

[river night]

my current fuel plant is 100 gens, but its only using diluted, no turbo yet, i might expand it to turbo, and then hopefully have enough until nuclear or i give up 😛

[thorn bane]

nah <250 imo
it just takes soooo long to build the actual generators

[fringe pawn]

Too bad they don't allow use to zoop buildings, generators work nicely packed tightly.

[thorn bane]

i mean thats good
thats the reason to do nuclear

[sullen cloud]

A factory that size pretty sure takes much longer to be built than these 400 generators

[fringe pawn]

Oh, definitely

[sullen cloud]

I have never seen a factory with a constant power draw of 75GW

[muted crypt]

if you set up 3750 individual package/unpackage loops of liquid you could

[sullen cloud]

not talking about theory in this case

[muted crypt]

does AmelieOfTheSea have a public save anywhere that functions? i.e. post-U4 recipe changes

[fringe pawn]

There's my power consumption for 20/20/5/5 space elevator parts

I overclock just about everything

[muted crypt]

well that explains it

simplify the logistics by overclocking, cutting down machine count

I'm considering doing that 🤔 once I hit endgame, anyway

[fringe pawn]

Caterium wire constructors clocked at 250% are so nice

[sullen cloud]

Ok, that’s kind of impressive

[thorn bane]

i mean even without OC that would be ~100GW

[muted crypt]

only clocked about 150%?

[thorn bane]

no at 100% but with 2.5x the buildings

[muted crypt]

ah right

[thorn bane]

i had 1/1/4/4 with 22GW

so math checks out 🙂

[muted crypt]

93,198.76 MW is what I calculated from the number that was given in the screenshot

(2.5 * 161500.6) / (2.5^1.6) = 93,198.76

[fringe pawn]

I've got dozens of drone ports too.

[fierce ruin]

@frosty owl Despite my best efforts. Despite the fact it should work. Despite accounting for every control I can think of across multiple different tests...
1:1 manifold sushi does not work.
My best guess it is has to do with the internal storage of splitters being weird.

[thorn bane]

i mean if its ABABAB the splitter will just send A to the first output and B to the second right?

[sullen cloud]

What are your FPS is the most interesting question here

[muted crypt]

and then from there, B would just be manifolded normally

[fierce ruin]

I don't think it stores things as AB though.
I think it just "stores" things.
And then acts like a container where it tries to get rid of the same stack, from what I saw.

[thorn bane]

make sure youre using mk5 in that case

[fierce ruin]

Like after a cycle it wasn't splitting, it was just dumping all the iron it had.

[wind spade]

internal storage only has one type of item iirc. And yeah you need AABBAABBAABB

[fierce ruin]

Yeah.

[muted crypt]

@wind spade I'm afraid to ask

[thorn bane]

i tested this some time ago and it was "mostly" reliable at high fps and <mk5
#math-and-meta message

so they definitly do remember the order

[wind spade]

what?

[muted crypt]

are those languages in the game, or are they meme roles, or

[fierce ruin]

So they are better than ISC's in their split-belt logic.
But have only 1 internal slot. So same item.

Which is why it's odd to me that ISC's can't evenly split outputs... if they were just coded like splitters but with more internal slots they would work fine.

[wind spade]

they are ingame

[muted crypt]

oh dear

[wind spade]

I haven't done much about pirate, but I've written some scripts to auto translate most of the shakespearean. Community finished the translation though

[thorn bane]

im not touching ISCs they seem buggy AF to me (and im still convinced they are horrible for fps)

[fringe pawn]

avg is low 20s.

[fierce ruin]

They SHOULDN'T be though, that's my point.

[wind spade]

ISCs are horrible for two belt output.

one belt output (or zero) is fine

[fierce ruin]

Again...

They SHOULDN'T be though, that's my point.

[wind spade]

they shouldn't be used as 2-2 balancer either 🤷

[thorn bane]

is there no setup of splitters to make it AB again though? there has to be right?

[fierce ruin]

No like... legit the framework to make them work properly already exists.

Inside of splitters.

[thorn bane]

but splitters dont output at 2x780
maybe the 780 bug just makes 2 lines at 780 impossible

[fierce ruin]

So why is an ISC's output coded differently than just a splitter with higher inventory space?

[wind spade]

because they are not splitters with higher inventory space 😛

[fierce ruin]

If I follow this, then ISC's should have perfect balance if you hook them up to x2 mk3s

[fierce ruin]

THEY SHOULD BE.

[wind spade]

agree to disagree

[fierce ruin]

I cannot agree to disagree because you haven't explained why they should behave differently?

[sullen cloud]

Sounds playable. Before U3 with a factory with a power draw of 30GW, I had 5 FPS

[thorn bane]

im sure CSS had a reason no not just make it a splitter

whats an easy 1:1 sushi for testing?

[fringe pawn]

My biggest problem is lag causing scroll through hand slots to work incorrectly

[fierce ruin]

You mean the testing I just did and already have setup?

[wind spade]

because splitters should be used for splitting and storages for storing 🤷 if we begin to mix those two, then neither will work as it should

[thorn bane]

just anythign i wanna test manifolds

[fierce ruin]

ISC having 2 outputs should work... how then?

[fierce ruin]

Iron Alloy is the simplest.

[thorn bane]

ooh ye ty

[wind spade]

there's a difference between "works like this" and "is used for this"

[fierce ruin]

Yes. I'm asking how you think a 2-output ISC should "work like".

[sullen cloud]

There’s still no logical explanation why ISC outputs currently work like they do

[wind spade]

code 🤷

[sullen cloud]

yeah, but with which intention?

Any intended pattern, which could be understood by the user is always nice

[muted crypt]

they should just set it so the bottom output is the one it will always prioritize upon an instance where the ISC has to split the materials between the two outputs

[wind spade]

just not expecting anyone to use it as a balancer

[fierce ruin]

I'm genuinely asking how you would have it work.

Honestly. Completely from a place of curiosity.

[thorn bane]

hm ye i see no other way than to split the sushi up again and merge both lines newly
but that kinda defeats the purpose of sushi

[fierce ruin]

Yeah, if the internal storage didn't exist it would work perfectly.

But that one slot being there fucks the whole system.

[thorn bane]

isnt it 9 slots?

[fierce ruin]

1 slot, 9-10 item max capacity.

[thorn bane]

ah

[fierce ruin]

You can see it when you do the sushi, lol.

When a line backs up, the internal storage fills, and when it empties it is entirely 1 item.

Instead of a mix of both.

So if that slot didn't exist (hypothetically, not sure what real in-game problems its removal would cause) then you could manifold 1:1 sushi easily.

[wind spade]

the slot was added to prevent splitters having issues with splitting to different speed belts

[fierce ruin]

Confirmed: it was added to prevent sushi manifolds. 😏

[thorn bane]

i mean just the concept that its Left-Right etc. makes sushi manifolds impossible (atleast without additional work)

[fierce ruin]

Left-Center-Right makes it work.

Because you'd have the first one going like this:

Input: Fe/Cu/Fe/Cu -repeat
Output:
Fe-L, Cu-M, Fe-R
Cu-L, Fe-M, Cu-R
-repeat

Meaning the second set would get:
Input: Cu/Fe/Cu/Fe -repeat
Output:
Cu-L, Fe-M, Cu-R
Fe-L, Cu-M, Fe-R
-repeat

So it just alternates.
Only place pattern breaks is the final machine and there are 2 ways to deal with that.

But again, internal storage existing, while helpful in all other cases, makes this impossible.

[karmic peak]

How do i split 25% of a Mk4 line?

[fierce ruin]

Put a splitter with a mk2 belt on it.

[muted crypt]

that's the easy way

[karmic peak]

oh.... yea.... LMAO

[fierce ruin]

It was a dumb easy question 🙂

[muted crypt]

to split 25% of any belt, split it once into 50%/50% and then split one of those again, merging one half into the other 50% and the other as its own standalone belt

[thorn bane]

split for 50%
split for 25%
???
profit

[muted crypt]

this is assuming the same belt speed, ofc

[karmic peak]

im not very bright

[muted crypt]

I'm making you a picture

[karmic peak]

nah the Mk2 works

[fierce ruin]

Quartz Crystal unlocks lights in the AWESOME Shop.
Light Control Panel can be used to set brightness. 😛

[karmic peak]

Already have them

[muted crypt]

• Bad puns result in a lifetime ban.

[karmic peak]

its not a bad pun though 🙂

[ashen girder]

Second strike!

[muted crypt]

because I took the effort to make this I'll post it anyway, ignore the fact that I made it in paint, I got lazy

green = splitter, orange = merger

[thorn bane]

draw .io

[muted crypt]

I would normally use that

but again, I got lazy

[fierce ruin]

Anything that wasn't as simple as 25% of a mk4, yes, do this.

PAINT >>>>> draw.io

[karmic peak]

I just accidently put steel ingots into my Steel rod line ;-;

[thorn bane]

wouldnt an overflow splitter work?
once the foundry is done it will take an exact ratio of 1:1 and once its full the overflow line "should" still be 1:1

[fierce ruin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ashen girder]

I've always had a theory that splitters continue cycling their outputs even then they can't use them.

[fierce ruin]

Yes.

[thorn bane]

then an ABABAB line wouldnt be AAA, BBB after a split

[ashen girder]

It would be until one output blocked.

[fierce ruin]

?

It would go ABABAB input.
Check Left - Open - Send A
Load B
Check Middle - Closed
Check Right - Open - Send B
Load A
Check Left --- and so on.

[thorn bane]

idk stuff like this 13:47 splitter is using the fact that its always left/right alot and this seems to work 100%

[ashen girder]

Does it block?

[thorn bane]

no

[fierce ruin]

Him saying they cycle with closed inputs doesn't change it always going L/R if the middle is closed though.

[thorn bane]

aaah sorry i misunderstood
i mean thats the reason manifolds work right? if left is blocked it will continue to the middle

[fierce ruin]

I really wish this worked...

[ashen girder]

It only matters if the output is intermittently closed which it will be in any manifold.

[ashen girder]

The point is if you rely on it being ordered that messes up the ordering as soon as it hesitates a single time.

[fierce ruin]

This is due to the internal storage slot.

Also I figured out to make the above work, so nevermind.

[thorn bane]

hm its still running idk

[fierce ruin]

Argument to be made then that it works 1-sided.

My test was a double-sided manifold.

[thorn bane]

ah i dont do those

and i feel like this should work with more complicated sushi as well

like ABCDABCD if it starts taking in the middle it will be AB ---- CD which is still ABCD for the next machine

[fierce ruin]

If it is single-sided, and perfectly input ratiod to where the last machine is never actually supposed to fill, yes I don't see why not.

[thorn bane]

i mean good enough
the technologiy is finally here
sushi manifolds

[fierce ruin]

So I didn't get what I was hoping for, but we found something else.

[thorn bane]

god automated wiring is stupid
is there a way to make it that doenst involve 10 million machines?

[fierce ruin]

Overclocking, or using Fused/Ct Wire recipes.

[thorn bane]

thats my plan right now
but i hate it....

[fierce ruin]

This can't be ABABAB, right?

[thorn bane]

it is

[fierce ruin]

Oh, you used smorts.

[thorn bane]

ye with center overlfow

buuuut its not looking too good after 30min

aaand it broke ye nvm doesnt work 😦

[fierce ruin]

Ok, I was about to double-check your test but nvm.

Lol. Still probably due to that internal storage slot.

[ashen girder]

Eventually, they all fall out of sync.

[thorn bane]

well if its a single machine no

[ashen girder]

If it's a single machine that you're feeding the right ratio to, it doesn't matter how you get it there. 😛

[thorn bane]

im just saying if you dont to manifolds like this they dont break, ever

[ashen girder]

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "like this".

With two items on one belt?

[thorn bane]

no with a manifold to go into multiple machines
i did a sushi that went into a single manufacturer and let it run for 100 hours and it was still the same

[ashen girder]

I'm confused. 🤔

Yes: if you have a single output, and you send the right ratios, it will always work.

But at that point, you don't even need to split it. You could literally just send it all into one input.

We're specifically talking about having more than 1 type of item on a belt, servicing a manifold.

Right? Am I missing something?

[thorn bane]

i thought you meant sushi in general eventually breaks

[ashen girder]

Anything that relies on a specific ordering output of splitters eventually breaks.

Because they don't maintain a specific ordering consistently any time the line can block.

Single machines don't care about ordering, because it's all going the same place anyway. The only time a Manu input blocks is when the item type you're trying to send in is full. So you can send all 4 item types into the same input if you've got the right ratios.

[thorn bane]

the right on is relying on splitting of every 6th item and i let it run for 5 days

[brittle terrace]

why?

[thorn bane]

too many machines

[thorn bane]

to high amounts of items on belts

[brittle terrace]

no y so much

autowire

[ashen girder]

Okay? That doesn't surprise me at all.

What do you mean by "every 6th item"?

[thorn bane]

if that last splitter in line wouldnt work as intended it would have failed way sooner
it splits off every 6th item it gets back into merger

[ashen girder]

Why do you think it would've failed sooner? It's a tiny amount of error in this setup, and you have a gargantuan amount of wiggle room since it won't stop until the input slot for a given material gets full.

[topaz hedge]

no more power problems here.

[ashen girder]

You've minimized the error here an impressive amount. 😂

[brittle terrace]

jesus how big is your factoy

[thorn bane]

it fails within 1h if you mess up the ratio so it would not have worked for 100h if it wasnt correct

[ashen girder]

Nah, I disagree. We're talking about splitters that magnify this potential error a hundred times and still take a long time to go wrong.

The point with the sushi manifold is even with just 4 machines it's already magnifying this error by 64x since each splitter's adding its own in.

[topaz hedge]

sushi is wonderful tho

[ashen girder]

I also wonder if they behave differently when all outputs are blocked.

[thorn bane]

i mean thats whats happening here
once the machine is done with the cycle it takes the new items and then sits there for 10 seconds completly full waiting for the cycle to end

[ashen girder]

So if you go and look at this machine, the inputs are all at the exact right amounts?

The exact right ratios, rather.

[thorn bane]

yes

[ashen girder]

What amounts are in there right now when it's stopped?

[ashen girder]

Okay. So if the ratios are perfect, it should have 500 screws, 25 EIB, 75 Steel Pipe and 25 Modular Frame.

So no. It's not remotely perfect, and is slowly drifting off course.

[thorn bane]

well thats from the buildup when ii hooked up the machine
its been the same ever since

for 100+ hours
thats 12000 cycles

[ashen girder]

🤷‍♂️ Fair enough. 😂 Then I'm wrong.

So, what's your theory on why sushi manifolds don't work?

[thorn bane]

well with simple splitters because they go left-right so the ratio wont be the same afterwards
with the overflow splitter im not 100% sure
i think it fails when it starts taking items as the splitter is just outputting an item

[ashen girder]

Why wouldn't the ratio be the same afterwards?

And why does it fail when it starts taking items as the splitter is just outputting an item?

[thorn bane]

ABABAB go into a splitter
AAA and BBB go out

[ashen girder]

..yes? So if it's a 3 way splitter, it's A left, B middle, A right, B left, A, middle, B right. Rinse repeat.

That means you get ABAB left, ABAB right, ABAB middle, no?

So I don't understand what you mean by "the ratio wouldn't be the same afterwards"

[thorn bane]

if its not blocked sure but once its full its random at what point it would take the new items

[ashen girder]

Why's it random? That doesn't make any sense.

[thorn bane]

it depends on when the machine is done with the cycle compared to the belt speed

[ashen girder]

That doesn't make it random.

[thorn bane]

sure
but its impossible to adjust the machine cycle length compared to the belt speed

[ashen girder]

Not true. Use longer belts.

[thorn bane]

also the left middle right only works with 1:1 sushi so its super limiting

[ashen girder]

I thought you guys didn't get it working at all?

Or, rather, it failed after some time.

[thorn bane]

i only tested the overflow splitter for a long time

[ashen girder]

Didn't that one fail for you too?

[thorn bane]

yes

[ashen girder]

So what made that fail?

[thorn bane]

im not sure
i think its something with the smart splitter switching up the ratio when the output is full (which alone isnt an issue) together with the second machine taking items at an unlucky moment

[ashen girder]

"smart splitter switching up the ratio"?

[thorn bane]

ABAB go in ABBA comes out

well not ratio i sohuld say

[ashen girder]

So you think it's taking two inputs, and reversing the order of them?

[thorn bane]

yes

[ashen girder]

But you know, for certain, it's not just skipping an output.

Which as far as I'm aware would look identical to that.

[thorn bane]

well it only has an any line and an overflow line as output so that cant happen

[ashen girder]

Why can't that happen?

[thorn bane]

its not skipping any output since the overflow line is always free

[ashen girder]

Okay, so the any line was stationary the entire time, blocking, and the input ABAB became ABBA? Is that what you're saying?

[thorn bane]

yes

[ashen girder]

Okay, so I have this setup: two different containers, connected to a merger, primed so that they're alternating. They output to a smart splitter with any center and overflow right. I have the any to a short belt with a couple things on it, and the overflow connected to a splitter with each branch connected to a container.

[thorn bane]

screenshot pls xD

[ashen girder]

You're suggesting that eventually, there should be a mix of those containers right?

They already ran through one stack of screws and concrete, hence why it's empty. 😂

Is this a valid test set up for what you're saying?

[thorn bane]

well the any line isnt moving
i think it breaks when it moves but im not sure
i would expect the containers to each have a single item but im curious what is actually gonna be 🙂
also i dont trust mk5 belts anymore...

[ashen girder]

Okay, so it wasn't stationary the entire time.

I can switch to lower tier if you want, I don't mind. 😂

[thorn bane]

ye do mk3

[ashen girder]

A single stack of screws and concrete sorted correctly. 🤷‍♂️

Okay, switched them all to mk3s.

I'm gonna go grab more screws.

[thorn bane]

i did this test some time ago with a single line into a splitter and a single line out and it still broke sometimes:

which isnt an issue if it goes directly into a machine as the ratio should still be right

[ashen girder]

Huh.

[thorn bane]

AAAABBBB goes into the splitter (with only 1 output) ABAAABBB comes out

*smart splitter

[ashen girder]

3 stacks of concrete and screws. Good to connect with a mk3?

[thorn bane]

yep
btw i just set my testing area up next to my main factory to have lots of resources xD

[ashen girder]

Same. 😂

[thorn bane]

then why do you need stacks of concrete etc
just belt it over there

[ashen girder]

The very first concrete went to the wrong one.

[lethal wing]

if my math is correct, a industrial fluid buffer full of turbo fuel(2400m3) could run a could run a single fuel generator(4.5m3/min) for 8 or so hours?

[ashen girder]

They are otherwise identical so far.

And the concretre was just because it was filling up the any line and it went screw/concrete/screw.

Interesting that it sent screws there after that first concrete though. It definitely flipped something there.

[topaz hedge]

I have a few decent sized ones. the big one is off until I can get pressure cube production back up :/

[ashen girder]

Ah yeah. Belt speeds and splitters still cause chaos. Love it.

[brittle terrace]

pressure cube? xD i dont even know what that is and im pretty far in the game

[ashen girder]

Protip: Never, ever, ever, ever mix belt speeds on a splitter.

[ashen girder]

It's the final tier in the MF/HMF/FMF chain.

Here's a brain twiddler for you fine folks. I have a box with 1500 stuff in it. It connects to a normal splitter on a Mk5. The splitter connects to 3 boxes. Left on a Mk3, Center on a Mk5, Right on a Mk4.

How many stuff winds up in each box when it's done?

[brittle terrace]

i dont wanna do math

[ashen girder]

You should probably not pay too much attention to this channel then. 😛

[lethal wing]

but... your table, your critical in math

[thorn bane]

well it should be 1/1/1 but im guessing its not xD

[brittle terrace]

i am used to do math i dont do it my self

[ashen girder]

Why would it be 1/1/1 if two of the outputs are so slow?

[thorn bane]

they are not too slow for 780/3 = 260 < 270

[ashen girder]

Hmm. Fair. I'll try it again with a Mk2 too. Even still, though, it's not 1/1/1.

482/509/509.

[thorn bane]

but ye id just explain with this 780 is just too damn fast

[ashen girder]

Honestly, I've never seen this produce the expected split.

Mixing belt speeds always causes it to be a little nutty.

[thorn bane]

i feel like it should work with <mk4

[ashen girder]

With all of them under mk4?

[thorn bane]

ye

[ashen girder]

Well, yeah. 😛 But that's because it can't handle the full throughput so it's just halting the input.

215/643/642.

I actually don't know what I'd expect a Mk2 to do in this. 😂

[thorn bane]

xD

[ashen girder]

230 assuming it was fully saturated?

[lethal wing]

im thinking it's splitting like that as you need to do the math in items/sec rather than items/min since your inputing faster than one of the belts can accept. if you were to cahnge it to mk5 in, mk5 left, mk4 center, mk3 right you'd probably have an okay split.

[ashen girder]

Define "okay split" for me?

[lethal wing]

more.... normal?

[ashen girder]

😂 Gonna hafta be more precise, sorry.

[lethal wing]

i.e closer to 1:1:1

[ashen girder]

@thorn bane My 1500 Screws+1500 concrete didn't make any more mistakes after the very first concrete.

[lethal wing]

i dont have mk5 unlocked yet so i cant try it myself.

[ashen girder]

Well, Mk3/5/4 does 482/509/509.

That's inline with what you're suggesting, yeah?

[vivid swallow]

Anyone here able to help me with pipes?

[ashen girder]

Or are you saying changing the output order should make those closer?

[lethal wing]

try mk5/4/3

[ashen girder]

Running a 2/5/3 right now. I'll swap them around when it's done.

[thorn bane]

nice
ye i think it messes up once the any line moves

[ashen girder]

2/5/3 ended up at 231/807/462

[ashen girder]

I mean, that takes us right back to what I said though. If it messes up when the any line moves, what's the difference between the splitter flipping it and it skipping an output?

[ashen girder]

Running this now.

[thorn bane]

do you mean the smart splitter or the splitter after?

[ashen girder]

Any? 😂 I dunno.

My point is that when a splitter has a blocked output that comes unblocked, it sometimes doesn't output what you'd expect it to.

@thorn bane Eventually these should flip right?

[thorn bane]

i think so yes

[ashen girder]

Gonna just let it go.

Left side is a smart splitter with none/any/none.

I assume the merger I used to load it isn't going to cause any issues.

[ashen girder]

507/506/487. Interesting. xD

Why would 5/4/3 be better than 4/5/3?

[lethal wing]

becasue the belts have a "cooldown" before they can accept another item. because you have the belts in a different position theres a different timing for them to accept another item

the center belt if im correct should control the "timing" if your input belt is faster

[ashen girder]

So 5/3/4 should be the same outcome?

Or wait, no, since it's changing the middle. 3/4/5.

[lethal wing]

possibly. try it and see if my theory is correct

[ashen girder]

Yup yup. Swapped the 3 and 5 belts.

[lethal wing]

we should see 487/506/507 if it correct

Me: struggling to make a proper factory
also me: theory crafting belt/splitter ratios.

[ashen girder]

Same. 😂

It's a fun distraction from the slog of building massive works.

Survey says...

482/509/509.

Identical results to 3/5/4!

Got 4/3/5 running now.

Wonder if the left belt actually dictates it.

[lethal wing]

hold on

are you removing and replacing the splitter between tests?

[ashen girder]

I am not.

[lethal wing]

that changes thigns

since center is always the first belt on a new splitter

gotta run the tests again

[ashen girder]

😂

[lethal wing]

with a new splitter each test

[ashen girder]

Is upgrading/downgrading belts in place okay or should I rebuild those too?

[lethal wing]

you'll have to reattach the belts to the splitter every time

[ashen girder]

506/488/506 on my 4/3/5 test.

I'll go back to 3/4/5 with a fresh splitter.

Okay, running.

480/510/510 on 3/4/5 with fresh splitter.

I'll do 5/4/3 next.

[lethal wing]

do 3/5/4, im settign up a spreadsheet

it's gonna show percentage

[ashen girder]

The 3/4/5 already started tho. 😛

[lethal wing]

kk

new splitter?

[ashen girder]

Yup.

[muted crypt]

Does SCIM have a thing to tell me what alts I already have?

[thorn bane]

yes research -> alternate recipes

[muted crypt]

perfect thank you

[smoky patio]

Been reading up on the wiki on the overclocking of power generators, and let me get this straight, if you have power shards to spare it's always in your best interest to overclock them? To save on space?

[ashen girder]

...that's one interpretation, yes.

[thorn bane]

yep
you might get weird numbers if you do 2.5 but if you do a bit less for 2x the input/output its fine

[ashen girder]

When it comes to limited resources, though, between power shards and space, I think space is usually slightly more available. 😉

[thorn bane]

i mean its the same as OCing normal machines

[ashen girder]

It is absolutely not.

[thorn bane]

the input/output ratio stays the same
you just save on space

[ashen girder]

As long as you don't consider "power consumption" an input on regular producers. Sure.

[topaz hedge]

Whoever wrote that on the wiki just didn't like building. They're probably against OC'ing production machines because it "uses more power"

Don't oc generators. it makes for nasty ratios, and decimals in your production graph

[thorn bane]

but you can just OC it to normal numbers
for example 2x the input 2x the output if you oc to 2^1.3

[topaz hedge]

How?

give me a clockspeed for a generator that doesn't have 4 decimals in the production, or consumption.

[topaz hedge]

there are still decimals in the production. but at least fuel comsuption isn't decimal'd as well.. so you get points for that

[thorn bane]

what do you mean production its a generator
generating 150MW

[topaz hedge]

ig. I can't tell you how to build your world xd

since u4 or something around there it seems like you end up with odd stuff anyways, so you might as well embrace it.

[smoky patio]

Which one is better long term for turbofuel power generation? The default recipe with diluted fuel, or using the blend?

[topaz hedge]

blend is overall better. fewer machines, less sulfur and no coal.

[smoky patio]

I see, my guess is that it's harder to balance everything with that right?

[topaz hedge]

not really.. if anything it's easier. the trade off is it uses more oil

[smoky patio]

Oil is less valuable than sulfur imo

[topaz hedge]

There's more of it. and the regular turbofuel recipe ( >U4) was sulfur limited.

[smoky patio]

oh wow turbofuel is hella op
One normal sulfur node, and one pure oil node makes 40k megawatts

[oblique hollow]

If you make 266 fuel generators you are a maniac

At that point its easier to make 16 nuclear power plants

[smoky patio]

Waste prodcuts 🤮
and I have the power shards, this world is from update 1, when the dupe glitch still existed.
I'll only need 131

[oblique hollow]

Waste is recycleable stop being so afraid of nuclear

[smoky patio]

Hmm yes let me just put dedicate 10k mw's to processing waste for a 30k mw power plant

[muted crypt]

Waste prodcuts 🤮
I present to you: heavy oil residue, a byproduct

[oblique hollow]

Polymer resin

[muted crypt]

water 😉

[oblique hollow]

The thing literally everyone trashes

[river night]

i use it to run my computer factory 😄

[oblique hollow]

When in doubt use plutonium rods to fuel vehicles for all eternity

[muted crypt]

okay everybody but Nevcairiel

[smoky patio]

Residual Plastic is good for computers, just put an overflow somewhere just incase.

[oblique hollow]

My computer factory runs off the polymer resin alt and residual rubber

I make 15 computers / min

[river night]

i had to sipphon a bit of fuel even for recycled rubber because my computer goal was too large

[smoky patio]

Which was?

[oblique hollow]

And need a total of 600 water

[muted crypt]

Okay, folks. I have t2 belts. I need to divide 9.6 iron rod constructors (a total of 144 rods) into groups of 92, 12 and 40. How would you do it?

[oblique hollow]

Had to use recycled plastic to reduce water consumption

[river night]

i think i built it for 22.5 now, eg. 6 manufacturers i think

[smoky patio]

Manifold and let it self balance.

[muted crypt]

t2 belts, 144 total

Otherwise yes I'd do exactly that

[smoky patio]

mhm, just plug in the second belt half way through the manifold

[oblique hollow]

Ez pz

[smoky patio]

Then when you come back through to upgrade you can delete the half way point, reattach it, and don't have to rebuild your factory, to account for better belts.

[river night]

injected manifold best manifold

[oblique hollow]

Bestifold

[muted crypt]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=jjeSlw7fKDsGTF21M5uP for context

This infuriates me.

[smoky patio]

Calculator makes things look harder than it is, direct input two/one smelter into the constructors, don't funnel everything through one belt.
This is why it's always better to calculate smaller production chains, then build copies of it.
Instead of trying to just make one massive interconnected mess that the calculator gives you.

[muted crypt]

too late I like how my smelting setup turned out kek

[oblique hollow]

Just say no and the calc cant do anything about it

[muted crypt]

Ignore the half cut-off container, that's part of something else

I'm glad I'm looking at this though I missed a belt oof

[smoky patio]

Is this SCIM?

[muted crypt]

yes

[oblique hollow]

Yes

[topaz hedge]

I've built 264.. apparently I'm almost maniac.. ty

[cosmic valley]

Hey guys, i'm looking for confirmation of my calculations. I produce 14.4 Uranium fuel rods/min. Since the generators consume 0.2/min. Is it correct 14.4/0.2 = 72 generators? Or is my brain melting

[sullen cloud]

That’s correct

[cosmic valley]

aight nice, thank you!

[frosty owl]

Double protip: use pog splitters and avoid blocked belts if you want to deal with complex sushi splitting so one stays inside "known and safe" operating boundaries ^^

[frosty owl]

I wonder if even pog splitters wouldn't make it work... 🤔
Thx for the ats, interesting stuff, would have loved to actually participate in the convo but notifications have been lost

[fierce ruin]

Poggers still have an internal storage slot, so the issue would still remain.

[frosty owl]

But you can force them to behave some ways... It'd be especially effective if the foundries took in 60 or 120/min 🤔

Thought: could it work if...
you replaced the splitters with poggers (set to copper+iron for left, right and middle)
Set the iron alloy foundries to 150% so they want 30/min of each ore
Have all the belts leading from splitter to foundries be MK1 (except for the last pair of foundries)
I realize this would be too much work to be useful in your example, I'm just wondering ^^

[fierce ruin]

? They take in 20 of each, which is a multiple of 120..

In testing, very little is "too much work"

Though different belt speeds is what was causing errors to begin with.

[frosty owl]

But you also had backed up splitter outputs and different splitters

[fierce ruin]

But I am willing to test whatever you want when I get home this afternoon.

Do you want to DM me so it's easier to find this later?

[frosty owl]

I'm not sure what you mean

[fierce ruin]

So in trying to clean up the math for HMFs, this is what I have arrived at:

PCC - need at least 47.4/min (25 to Turbo Pressure Motors + 22.4 if Max Nuke)
PCC:FMF conversion is 1:1
FMF:HMF conversion is 1:1 (1.5:1.5 OR 3:3)
Heavy Encased goes cleanly into multiples of 45

HMFs @ 135/m

90 to FMF
45 to Storage

FMFs @90

60 to PCC
30 to Storage

I could go 45/45 on the FMFs and just restrict my nuclear to an even 20 PlutRods/min, but A) I am trying to make sure I have that cushion for whatever they may use them for in the future, B) I haven't done the math to see what multiples of PlutRods are "cleanest".

The underlying question there is does anyone know the multiples that nuclear rods go into cleanly? Or should I spend time figuring that out this morning?

[sullen cloud]

Multiples of 2

[frosty owl]

Why using the pressure conversion instead of the standard recipe for plutonium?

[fierce ruin]

Because I have them?

[frosty owl]

Btw, I think HMFs are handy to produce in multiples of 8 as the input numbers become nice in that case iirc

[frosty owl]

That's more alu than I'd want to use for pluto, but sure xD
(Aslo, I know the numbers for the other recipe instead :P)

[fierce ruin]

Given the ToolsCalc hates me, I am doing that manually atm.
So I will type it out when I have it completed.

From what I did yesterday though, 45 was the best number for Heavy Encased.

Heavy Flexible's was 15.

[fierce ruin]

Curious to see your multiples of 8 being "nice" @frosty owl

Halfway done with this 135 and it's super, super clean so far.

[tropic hawk]

ever try splitting a multiple of 5?

[fierce ruin]

Ohhhh, your concern is splitting the output of the HMFs?

(I'm on a single screen at work, so @ me or reply so I know when to switch tabs)

[frosty owl]

These the inputs (final one is the output) multiplied by 8. Generally, numbers that are easy to get either by merging outputs or balancing

[fierce ruin]

I cannot read any of that beyond the "2.8125x8 = 22.5"

Also by that I just figured out I am doing it in terms of 16 by your perspective.
You're looking at 8 machines doing 22.5.
I am looking at 16 machines doing 45.

So in effect we have the same conclusion 😂

Just going to finish solving this then punch 135 in the calc to see the differences.

[fierce ruin]

I really, really don't want to use screws but it seems unavoidable here...

Doing this setup calc has rekindled my mindset that the HOR recipe is broken as fuck.

[frosty owl]

My go-to recipe combo there, is:
Bolted Plates, Modular Frames, Steel Screws.
I find it strikes the best balance between resource efficiency and build count 🤔

[wind spade]

cries in stitched plates

[fierce ruin]

I was looking at Adhered Plates tbh.

Which led me down the rabbit hole to re-visiting how broken the HOR alt recipe is.

[frosty owl]

Eh... That's 3.75/min Vs 15/min...
I've yet to discover the appeal of adhered plates

[fierce ruin]

Would you like me to recount my path down the rabbit hole?

(abridged version ofc)

[frosty owl]

I'm guessing it's a preference based on resources efficiency?

But sure 😆

[fierce ruin]

I have solved Concrete, EIBs, and Pipes, working on Frames atm.
Given the steel cost is already 7155, I was attempting to not used Steeled Frames so I was looking at Base vs. Bolted recipes.

Both require a total input of 540 RIPs for what I am doing.
So I decided to solve for RIPs.
Adhered Plates being an option I had an idea: what if used Rubber Concrete on Adhered Plates? Base Rubber recipe gives Rubber and HOR, split the HOR to Coke and bite into the steel requirement.
Worked nicely. If I use Rubber Concrete the cost is 720/m, and Adhered Plates would need an additional 540/m.
HOR from the base Rubber recipe would net me 5040 Steel Ingots, out of the 7155 need -- not bad. Total Oil cost 1890.

But just to do my diligence, I checked the Recycled Loop.... Using the HOR alt for both that loop and to make up the same amount of HOR needed for the steel.... total Oil cost 1365.

That recipe is broken as fucking fuck and I firmly hold that it needs to be nerfed. (I know everyone in this channel will disagree, I don't care.)

[frosty owl]

Well, the HOR alt with recycled loops does increase the build count by quite a lot though 😅

[wind spade]

it trades resource efficiency for complexity and power 🤷‍♂️

damn

[fierce ruin]

I'm not saying nerf it into oblivion.
But 30-40 is a bit much imo. Have it be 30-30 without any other changes and I think it would be fine.

[frosty owl]

"Both require a total input of 540 RIPs for what I'm doing"
Are you referring to steeled frames Vs bolted? Because steeled should take much less RIPs 🤔 (4 and 9 for 6 Frames respectively)

[fierce ruin]

I was attempting to not used Steeled Frames so I was looking at Base vs. Bolted recipes.

My coal requirement is already 4770, which is a tall order for a single outpost.

[wind spade]

but... it's nice to call the recipes "oil tripling recipes" 😦

[fierce ruin]

It's technically 4.5x the base though.

[wind spade]

with your change it would be like "oil 2.25-ing recipes"

[wind spade]

300 oil -> 900 plastic/rubber

[fierce ruin]

I am aware of what 900/300 is.

I'm also aware the base is 3 -> 2

and 3 / 0.6666666666 = 4.5

Hence it is 4.5x the base.

If you make it 30 to 30, it's 2.25 oil to rubber/plastic, which is still 3.375x the base.

So it is still better, but it's not broken as shit.

[wind spade]

I guess the name originates from making three times as much plastic as you had oil 🤔

[fierce ruin]

I know where the name is from and I acknowledge it's use-case in 99.999% of all conversations regarding oil.

This is the 0.001% conversation where I'm caring about the relationship between Recycled LOOP Output and Base Output, and not the Oil to Output ratio.

[wind spade]

you also have a byproduct tho 🤔

[fierce ruin]

..........................................................................................

[wind spade]

so technically it's slightly less, but it's hard to quantify HOR byproduct

[fierce ruin]

This continues with multiple remarks on various points and ends with me, again, being the only person who thinks HOR alt should be nerfed.
Neither of which matter as none of use has pull on what the devs do with their game.

[wind spade]

actually we both have 🤔

QA site

[fierce ruin]

Me putting "HOR needs a nerf" on the QA site would result in absolutely nothing.

[wind spade]

well it definitely would with this attitude

[strange glacier]

What recipe's are great for motors?

[fierce ruin]

@frosty owl can't do Steeled Frames.
Current Steel Ingots requirement is 7155 and the max I can squeeze from this area is 7100 😦
Steeled Frames would add another 1800 needed ingots...

[wind spade]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Motor#Alternate_recipes_analysis

[strange glacier]

No, i mean, in the process for usage

[fierce ruin]

Rigour and Electric both have their merits.

[strange glacier]

Just need the fastest way i suppose

[fierce ruin]

Speed is a factor of how many buildings you have so....

[wind spade]

fast can be also done by building more buildings

[fierce ruin]

Both can be equal in the right context.

[strange glacier]

🤔

[fierce ruin]

Example:

Bolted Plates is "3x faster" than the base recipe.
But if you just build 3 Assemblers for the base recipe they have the exact same production speed.

[strange glacier]

hmm

[fierce ruin]

So "faster" isn't a great method of comparison.

[strange glacier]

Makes sense

[fierce ruin]

Especially given the base recipe is CHEAPER than bolted.... but I won't restart that discussion...

[wind spade]

usually you're looking for either smallest build, lowest energy cost or highest resource efficiency

all of which is described in the link I sent you

[fierce ruin]

Rigour vs. Electric is basically a matter of "would you rather set up Oscillators or HSCs?"

[strange glacier]

Just checking indeed

I really dislike the oscilator to make

[wind spade]

HSC? or ECR?

[fierce ruin]

HSCs are needed for ECRs.
I consider them to be the more complex part of that whole line.

Because ECRs are pretty simple in a bubble.

[strange glacier]

blegh

[wind spade]

can't you make them from AI limters and stators tho?

[strange glacier]

TO many choises

Looking at the coal too atm

[strange glacier]

I do have all recipes

[fierce ruin]

I never use the base recipe for ECRs. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wind spade]

that's fair. Though looking at that it seems very comparable

you just use a bit more coal instead of oil

[strange glacier]

Hmm

This is what the website gives me

https://i.imgur.com/jXn9zZF.png

[wind spade]

it shows you the most resource efficient way. You can disable recipes/resources you don't want to use if you want to see other options

[strange glacier]

Yep

For my location, that would be the most beneficial way i suppose

[fierce ruin]

Like how I have to disable the BASE iron ingot recipe for the site to recognize that Iron Alloy is a perfectly viable option...

[wind spade]

sorry for that 😦 it's pure math tho, there's no subjective opinionated prioritisation 😉

[fierce ruin]

I'll have to check on the U5 version, but I know on the U4 version it would give me "Could not find solution" when there was one. It just required the algorithm to get over itself about Iron Alloy 😂

[wind spade]

that's weird. Shouldn't happen. Can you provide a link(s)?

[fierce ruin]

I'd have to remember what I was looking at, but I have made a note to link you if I come across it again.

[wind spade]

but definitely check the U5 version, it runs on different code

[fierce ruin]

It was basically that I had just enough if I used Alloy, so the system accepted it when I disabled everything else and forced the usage.

[wind spade]

results should be very similar, but I've rewritten the whole thing to hopefully fix some of the bugs that were in U4 tool

the tool should display a solution if there is one tho.

no matter how "bad" it is

[fierce ruin]

Idk how you'd do it, but it would be interesting if there was a "clean" option where the system avoids all 0.3333, 0.6666 or any other decimal that goes beyond 4 places (given the game cares only about clock %, not ppm).

[heady mist]

I’m thinking of making a big fuel plant (~1800 crude oil) before starting my whole map expansion and going into nuclear. How much of a difference is there realistically between using diluted fuel vs turbo blended? I guess I’m just wondering in general how far can ~60GW carry me in the late game vs 80GW (if I did the maths right), and also how much power it usually takes for a complete nuclear plant using 2 overclocked uranium nodes (which would be my ultimate goal). Thanks!

[fierce ruin]

Because you can't really make 16.8888888888 Constructors.
So the "clean" toggle would force it to be within the bounds of buildings you can actually make and clock.

[fierce ruin]

Turbo is superior to base fuel. Burns at less than half the rate, meaning you can have double the generators.

So Turbo Blend is your best option.

How far 60 GW can carry you is based on how you build tbh?

[wind spade]

it's technically possible and I kinda know how would I do it. The problem is that it may not find a solution

[fierce ruin]

Like a baseline outpost of mine will cost 6-8 GW minimum.

[fierce ruin]

That's why I'd have it as a toggle, not part of the baseline UX.

[wind spade]

I haven't tested this but I assume for a lot of cases it would overproduce by a lot or even hit map limits

[fierce ruin]

?

[wind spade]

e.g. if "normal" result would lead to 0.3333333333, then you need to multiply everything x3 to get normal number

so you'd have to produce three times as much

[fierce ruin]

Oh, I'm thinking if you type in "Give me 125/m of X" and then toggle "clean" it would produce "no result" if one of the building counts is 1/3.

[wind spade]

or it would just round up everything and give you tons of 0.0001/min byproducts

which is probably what it would do anyway 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Also I am talking building counts. If an item output is 0.3333 I don't care.

[sullen cloud]

there’s no clear definition of „end game“ - but 60GW still can power a very huge factory setup, I guess it’s enough for 98% of all players

[wind spade]

yeah but basically what I mean is if a building count is 0.33333333333333333333 it would just make it 0.3334 and mark the extra produced items as a byproduct

so I'm not sure if it would really produce any useful info

[heady mist]

If you have a hard cap on the crude oil you want to use though turbo doesn’t actually generate twice the power as diluted fuel, which is why I’m wondering if the extra complexity is worth it. But I guess I’ll never know until I actually start to build lmao

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.
Is there a way to make it say like "If number returned has more than 4 decimals Then solution invalid"?

[wind spade]

not really, I only have access to starting conditions and the result, I can't change the code that calculates it

[fierce ruin]

If you're using 1800 Oil, how much of each fuel type would that be?

[fierce ruin]

You must bend the code to your will. 😛

[wind spade]

only way it would work is if I'd just throw away the result and show "no result" if it has more than 4 decimals

[fierce ruin]

Yes.

That's what I am saying the clean toggle would do.

[sullen cloud]

In which Tier are you currently?

[wind spade]

but what I can do (and it's what I suggested earlier as my solution) would be to multiply everything by 10000 and define that each building amount has to be integer, put it into the solver and then divide everything by 10000 again and show the result

[fierce ruin]

That would change what the person is trying to find though.

If you're looking for a clean version of 125/m and none exists, you should be told that none exists.
Not suggested to try building 375.

[wind spade]

I don't think it would build 375

[fierce ruin]

????

[wind spade]

would probably be like 125.0013

[fierce ruin]

You said if it's a 0.3333 it would tell you to do 3x more?

[wind spade]

but after that I gave it more thought and realised it can just make byproduct intermediates

[fierce ruin]

Fair.

Not strictly as precise as I would use, but for the vast majority that's what they would want now that I think about it.

[wind spade]

so it's basically:
if a number has more than 4 decimals, round to nearest bigger number with 4 decimal digits, mark the extra output as a byproduct, change the ingredient amounts to be larger according to that, repeat for the whole tree

[fierce ruin]

For HMFs though.. I am left with this choice:

2160 Rods or 10,080 Screws. Which sounds simple, but it is also 180 Assemblers vs. 72 Assemblers...

[fierce ruin]

Alternate idea:
Clean toggle forces the output into a clean number.
I.E. HMF's for Heavy Encased is 2.8125
So for me, looking at 135 that's an even 48 machines.
But if I am looking for 133, it's 47.28888888888

In this idea, clicking "clean" the system would ask you if you wanted 135 or 132.1875 as those are the closest multiples of 2.8125 to the given 133 value.

[wind spade]

the problem is that the tool doesn't know which recipe it would use in advance 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Imo this toggle should not be "simple" if you're looking for exacting numbers, it is perfectly reasonable to ask the user to input more data.

[wind spade]

it can also use multiple different recipes for a single item

[fierce ruin]

OH!

[wind spade]

also if we want to discuss this further, maybe a thread or DM would be better than spamming here?

[heady mist]

Pretty sure it’s 4800 fuel vs 2400 turbo (so 60GW vs 80GW) for 1800 oil

[fierce ruin]

Does your x100000/100000 version clean that part up?
Or does it just give byproduct to smooth out?
Because sometimes clean is a factor of combining a high efficiency recipe to get really close then finishing with a couple less efficient machines.

[heady mist]

Halfway through T7/8 but I’m kind of rebuilding everything rn so I have very barebones production

[wind spade]

it would depend on which variant would be more resource efficient (or X efficient when I implement other optimisation targets later)

[fierce ruin]

4800 vs. 4000 if you have all alt recipes.

[heady mist]

What other recipes are used?

[fierce ruin]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=1g5U2wMCCyez2urCQmDi

[heady mist]

I’m thinking of turbo blended, not sure I want to deal with the regular turbo recipe tbh

[fierce ruin]

Odd that you can squeeze more base recipe out than Turbo Blend, isn't it?

2400 Turbo vs. 4800 Fuel though is 1:2 when their burn times are 2.66:1

So Turbo still wins, however to your question of "are the extra GW worth it" -- I return you to my "depends on how you build".
For me, 20GW extra could be an entire other outpost.

But 60 GW can easily carry you to nuclear provided you plan to set it up in a decent amount of time.

[fierce ruin]

If you want to add it I am willing to stress-test it with weird shit for you.

[heady mist]

How much power does it take to run a nuclear plant?

Assuming a fairly chonky one using two overclocked nodes

[fierce ruin]

That is a question for the more nuclear-ly versed here.

I am a baby nuker. After this run I will know it a lot better though.

[wind spade]

I'm like 80% confident it would just do 0.0001 byproducts, so essentially no real difference 😦

[fierce ruin]

Fair. Just means I get to do some paper-maths for big projects now if I want to be precise.

It's a great tool, I just find myself using it more as a starting point/reference now and refining what it spits out.

[wind spade]

do you have a concrete production amount for me to test for you?

[heady mist]

Alright, thanks @fierce ruin for the help!

[wind spade]

I'll quickly try the change locally, if results will be interesting, I can put it out there for testing

[fierce ruin]

990

[wind spade]

of which item? 😄

[fierce ruin]

Concrete?

[wind spade]

ah

I meant "concrete" as a term, not as an item

but I can do 990 concrete 😄

[fierce ruin]

Going to lunch. After which may I vomit my HMF design so far here for opinions, or is that better suited for #satisfactory-experimental ?

Frames are still being bothersome...

[ashen girder]

There's threads here and they're surprisingly useful. 😂

[wind spade]

990 concrete, how do you like it? 😛

(for now it does whole buildings, but the concept can be easily expanded to 1/10000th of buildings)

[magic shadow]

why would you want to use rubber concrete though

[ashen girder]

He explains farther up.

..probably 3 or 4 times honestly.

[wind spade]

the tool picks most resource efficient path to produce something 😉

[magic shadow]

little confused about the recycle loop

there is no input plastic/rubber so there's nothing to recycle

[wind spade]

you can kickstart it with the residual rubber instead

[magic shadow]

also, it's just producing 5 extra water for no reason

[wind spade]

yeah that I have no idea why xD

was just a quick 5 minute spaghetti code to make it work

didn't really look deep into why it does that

[magic shadow]

maybe a little func that says if source goes directly to byprod, eliminate that

[wind spade]

🤷 this probably won't be added anyway. Or if it will, it will be done differently

[fierce ruin]

Look at that 1 base rubber recipe.

[fierce ruin]

Lowest Limestone usage is a reason to use Rubber Concrete.

[magic shadow]

Lowest Sanity post-build too

[fierce ruin]

?

[magic shadow]

god knows there's plenty of limestone and water everywhere so ill stick to wet

[magic shadow]

having to make a fuel setup for concrete

[fierce ruin]

I'll recheck my location when I return from lunch, but I'm pretty sure there isn't 4860 Limestone available there.

[magic shadow]

[fierce ruin]

I'll also do what @ashen girder suggested and just make a thread with all the details of the HMF build.

[fierce ruin]

Not allowed with how I do outposts.

[ashen girder]

(Fun fact, threads don't have slow-mode, either. xD)

[fierce ruin]

Local resources only.

[wind spade]

May behave differently with 1/10000th instead

[fierce ruin]

Nuuuuuuuuu.

[ashen girder]

Snutt just said instead of having load balancing splitters/mergers, they'd rather tweak ratio numbers and to put any ideas on the Q&A site..

[fierce ruin]

They'd rather have splitters/mergers tweaking ratios or?

Idk what specifically he is asking.

[ashen girder]

The reason they're hesitant about splitters behaving like valves is because balancing ratios is part of the core game loop and it would trivialize that. Instead, Snutt suggested that if there's any specific ratios you dislike or think they should change, to post that change to the Q&A site.

[fierce ruin]

Ah. That I am agree with.

I consider what we do with splitters now to be "load balancing" so I was confused by your initial statement.

[ashen girder]

Ah, yeah. It was literally right after he said it on the livestream so I wanted to get it out. 😂

[fierce ruin]

I don't think any of the ratios need to be tweaked from a "how splitters function" perspective.
Just the nerf to HOR from "this recipe outclasses every other fucking thing" perspective.

[ashen girder]

Post about it! 😁

[fierce ruin]

Curious as to what other people would suggest are "ugly" ratios, because I haven't come across one yet that doesn't clean up super nicely when looked at from the correct angle.

[ashen girder]

I don't. 🤷‍♂️ But I don't actually pay attention to the exact ratios.

I always just round up to the nearest full producer.

[fierce ruin]

I'm attempting to find the "cleanest" version of the Recycled loop atm.

[ashen girder]

Godspeed.

[wind spade]

I think there was a guy who already found a way with whole numbers

[fierce ruin]

Link?

[wind spade]

oh no idea, would have to search here 😄

[fierce ruin]

Lol.

[sullen cloud]

What’s the recycled loop?

[wind spade]

alt recycled plastic + alt recycled rubber

[ashen girder]

Turning a little oil into a lotta shit.

[wind spade]

*a little fuel

[ashen girder]

Acting like it works with bio or turbofuel. 😉

[sullen cloud]

Yeah, I know that shitty setup quite good because of all these ingame pipe flaws. Reminds me that I still need to switch to the Blender setup and get rid of these package/ unpackage bullshit

[fierce ruin]

@wind spade it's basically just trying to balance these against how many Recycled machines you have running.

HOR * 0.25 = ResRubber
HOR * 1/6 = ResPlastic

[ashen girder]

Fractions and decimals. Gross.

[fierce ruin]

Which, as odd as it is, may make Diluted Packaged better for some Plastic setups. Same conversion rate as the Blender's Diluted recipe, but comes in multiples of 60 instead of 100.

[fierce ruin]

1/6 doesn't truly exist in base 10 math, so putting the fraction there reminds me to use it properly.

[ashen girder]

Doesn't make it less gross. You can express the other one as a rational number too.

[fierce ruin]

😛

[ashen girder]

25/100 and 1/6.

[normal carbon]

Is there a up to date chart of the total production chain? Wondering about reasonable breakpoints for splitting production into different locations while keeping exchang to a minimum.

[ashen girder]

Hasn't changed since U4 so.. probably.

[fierce ruin]

What is the "total production chain"?

If that's what I think it might be.... why?

[normal carbon]

Mostly to easily identify products that are used in few/many other products.
Found this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/fky3gr/made_a_flowchart_of_update_iii_default_recipes/
But that's update 3.

[ashen girder]

Yep. That looks about as useful as I'd expect it to be.

That'd be so much messier now.. and does it include alt recipes?

[wind spade]

the problem is that alt recipes change how things are produced, so the chart would be unreadable

[fierce ruin]

Are you talking about the Storage List?

[normal carbon]

Nope. I'm just having the issue that starting with electronics flow of materials usually becomes an unholy mess for me.

Storage list?

[fierce ruin]

products that are used in few/many other products.

The Storage List is the list of items you should store because it starts with every item in the game, then removes all items that are solely used in the creation of other items.
So what remains is what is worth storing.

Sounds like you're looking for the opposite, in that you want the list of items used to make other items?

[oblique hollow]

Good example: fused frame are the basis of tier 8

Needed in every single recipe in some way

[fierce ruin]

Follow-up example: in U4 you should never store Circuit Boards.
In U5, with them being required for Signals, there is now a reason to store them.

[fierce ruin]

If you have a particular electronic item you're working on, I am happy to exorcise the production chain for you.

[oblique hollow]

Electronics is just AI limiter, CB, Computer, Supercomp, HS Connector and Radio Control unit

[normal carbon]

Nah, way past that. Just starting on Aluminium. Factory looks like an unholy mess though. Pulling that copper and coal through several floors didn't make it look any better 🙂

[fierce ruin]

So your issue is with Aluminum?

Or just organization?

[oblique hollow]

Probably organization

[ashen girder]

Do you have this list for U5?

[fringe pawn]

That reminds me, I need to take another stab at cubbies which implement signs more properly.

[normal carbon]

In general, it's because I didn't play this for quite a while. I don't really remember/know where else I'm going to need a specific product later on. Which leads to massive spaghetti.
Which is why a chart that shows at a glance where a product is needed would be quite helpful IMO.

Well, the spaghetti works.

[fierce ruin]

Plate, RIP, Beam, EIB
Pipe, Rod, ECR
CSheet, ASheet, Plastic, Rubber
Frame, HMF, FMF
Wire, QW, Cable
Crystal, Osc
CB, HSC, AIL
Rotor, Stator, Motor, Turbo
Comp, RCU, SuperComp
Casing, Cooling
Concrete, Silica

[oblique hollow]

Generally, products are... Uh... Convergent?

[fierce ruin]

Time for a Hub0 Restart.

[oblique hollow]

They all eventually end up in elevator part

For steel and iron, the line mostly converges towards modular frames

Oil is plastic / rubber plain and simple, and that moves towards computers / supercomps and Radio control units

[fierce ruin]

@wind spade idk if this is helpful to you, but you had said "amount from byproduct is hard to quantify" in regards to the Recycled Loop.
Specifically for how much of each you're getting from the Polymer Resin:

ResidualRubber = 1/10 * Fuel
ResidualPlastic = 1/12 * Fuel

Going to keep playing with it and see what the best "ratios" are in terms of getting it to come out cleanly. But that is how you quantify them.

I need to edit that, give me a sec...

I moved a letter on my paper...

[wind spade]

that's how you quantify them if you use them for this purpose, but you can also use them for fuel 🤷‍♂️

[fierce ruin]

That is for Fuel. That's the letter I moved 😦

HOR is still 1/4 and 1/6, respectively.

[normal carbon]

Hrm. Just got the Hoverpack. Looking at the mess from above, I guess most of it is related to getting products to a central storage.
So that's an issue of insufficient planning. As always.

[fierce ruin]

Because F = 2 * HOR.

[oblique hollow]

Do you mean input of resin such that the entire thing has clean numbers?

[fierce ruin]

This is about the output of resin from the initial HOR sink at the beginning of the loop.

[sullen cloud]

I recommend using greeny's tool. Just smash some preferred outputs in it and see what those need. Expand output list as needed.

[oblique hollow]

Yes, thats what i meant

[fierce ruin]

Because his tool looks weird when you want a clean number like 120/m, because while it COULD do a clean 120 from just the recycled, using the resin makes your machine count into weird decimals.
So I am trying to find clean total amounts and the ratio therein so I can know "If you're going to make rubber/plastic, do it in multiples of X"

[oblique hollow]

I have an excelsheet to brute force that approach

[fierce ruin]

If you have this solved it will save me time, lol.

[oblique hollow]

I could modify it......

[fierce ruin]

Doing this by hand atm.

I know the ratio for plastic will inherently be different than the one for rubber.

[crystal charm]

so, in order to bypass hugely large amounts of splitting, i did small amounts

and made a sort of a while loop