math-and-meta

[fierce ruin]

What kind of operation?

[oblique hollow]

open heart surgery

[earnest lantern]

so bad, it's funny how such a discussion develops from a joke. Chaos as it lives and breathes

[fierce ruin]

What's the meta in coronary bypass currently?

[frosty owl]

Infinity - infinity that you were mentioning

[oblique hollow]

um..... connect the ends to form a loop so you dont run into any flow bottlenecks

[fierce ruin]

Conceptually it's automatically zero given what infinity means.
But changing what infinity means alters that operation, hence having a different word is more applicable.

[fierce ruin]

While keeping in mind the person's mk2 pipes may not actually be pumping all the blood at capacity?

[earnest lantern]

oh no...

all good, nobody know all

[fierce ruin]

I did say by all definitions outside of math it is zero since the term is binary in nature.
But inside of math is where it changes.

[earnest lantern]

okay missunderstand you

[oblique hollow]

its probably because one of the pipes in the manifold turned into mk 1 and throttles max flow

[fierce ruin]

Unending and you take away (subtract) unending means you are left with nothing.

[fierce ruin]

Best to deconstruct and rebuild. See if that fixes the issue.

[earnest lantern]

whole time I have troube with to less coal, must calc the in and output of every line new

[frosty owl]

Well, using an electrical example, you don't usually start studying it knowing what a "field" is exactly, despite knowing the word. It has a similar meaning to its tecnical counterpart, but still needs redefinition in that context
I see no reason to coin a new word when you can simply add one more definition for it, so long as they share an adequate amount of meaning 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

De L'Hospital goes brrrrr

[frosty owl]

Imagine coining a name for each theorem rather than just naming it by creator

[fierce ruin]

I still wish they had chosen "bootylicious" redefine instead of infinite.
Because thinking about complete sets of bootylicious numbers just sounds more fun.

[oblique hollow]

Booty - Booty = No Booty

[earnest lantern]

it is possible to solve this, if you define Terms that all sciences must use.
Unfortunately, many things have grown historically and somehow people cling to them.

[fierce ruin]

No Booty + Squats + Nutrition = Booty

[frosty owl]

Why would you do that? Different scientific subjects already share some words with different definitions between subjects, if they shared EVERY word wouldn't it be a mess?

[oblique hollow]

Infinity + 1 + 2 = Infinity, yes

[fierce ruin]

M A T H

[oblique hollow]

sharing same definitions would make things easier

[frosty owl]

• zero + 1 + 2 = 3, yes

[oblique hollow]

so the opposite of Zero is 3 now

[frosty owl]

And "no booty" means infinity

[frosty owl]

I think it'd require adding many more words to cover all uses without too much ambiguity, wich is kind of a pain

[earnest lantern]

but it gives problems in understanding. If you read about correlation in physics then it makes sense, if you read a paper in medicine than the definition is very different.
And this has nothing to do with statistical correlations. Even in the natural sciences, the nature and meaning differs somewhat for some terms.
A uniform catalogue of scientific terms would not be so bad.

[fierce ruin]

Even if you got them to make it an agree, America would never use it.

[oblique hollow]

i guess theres a reason why some things are uniform and others not.
Math definitions, chemical names (usually IUPAC)

[earnest lantern]

sure, fucking imperial system. The SI system is very easy, why make the US all difficult

[fierce ruin]

Hell everyone agreed on ALUMINIUM and yet they changed that to be "interchangeable with aluminum"

[oblique hollow]

sodium vs natrium

[frosty owl]

I think that uniformity can only show in subjects that share properties from both (medicine and physics in the example). If you were to study something like that, you'd feel like coining a word to clear up the confusion, but if you study just medicine or physics, it's fine as long as you know there's a difference (which you can infer by the context in most cases)

[fierce ruin]

At this point it's about money. Most factories in the US are already tuned to metric actually, but converting the US to metric would require at a minimum something like changing every road sign in existence -- which is a projected cost of 2+ trillion dollars on its own.

[earnest lantern]

yeah sure, but you save time not translating this from one science to a other

or from one metric system in a other

and you save money, not that I give a lot on money

[frosty owl]

I was flabbergasted when I realized how hard it is to make simple subtractions with inches when you need precision

[fierce ruin]

Then you remembered we cannot precisely measure anything?

[earnest lantern]

a few catastrophe are happened through this.

metric system is over constants of nature defined, you need a metric, without metric no measurement makes sense.

[frosty owl]

I'm pretty sure I can measure stuff precise enough for me
I don't usually deal with perfect measurements

[fierce ruin]

precise enough being the key word there, lol.
Measurements always have an "acceptable range" though. We can count exactly, but we cannot measure exactly. Just the way of the world.

[earnest lantern]

Of course, for most purposes, an accuracy of one nanometre is exaggerated, far exaggerated.

[earnest lantern]

yes, that is already the case with a ruler.
Say 10cm with 1mm reading error

[fierce ruin]

I must not make lewd jokes regarding 10cm
I must not make lewd jokes regarding 10cm
I must not make lewd jokes regarding 10cm
I must not make lewd jokes regarding 10cm
I must not make lewd jokes regarding 10cm

[earnest lantern]

äh?!

ah, I have sometimes a long line

xd

[fierce ruin]

We all have a long "line" sometimes, just biology. 😏

[frosty owl]

I just think any "measurement" has a certain precision. Just a "perfect" one doesn't (or when you simply don't care about precision)

[earnest lantern]

somebody more then other😆

[fierce ruin]

Is that why mk2 pipes don't work?

SEE I ROUNDED THE CONVERSATION BACK TO META @oblique hollow

[earnest lantern]

yes this is right, therefor you measure not one time, but several times, the values then scatter around a mean value, what is then your searched value

[oblique hollow]

ah yes, i also encounter the Heisenberg uncertainity principle when watering my flowers

[fierce ruin]

This is why I have a cactus. Much simpler.

[frosty owl]

I clipped through a wall once 😢

[oblique hollow]

ripping a hole in a wall is not clipping

[earnest lantern]

I have realised for myself that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is nothing special, it occurs in every measurement. The special thing about quantum mechanics is that the uncertainty has a lower limit, but it is nothing special.

Sorry, I'm in a sharing mood and probably talk too much

[fierce ruin]

Don't even get me started on Schroedinger's Quark.

😏

[earnest lantern]

not really complicated, if you have a good fundament in linear algebra and differential equations then Quantum Mechanics not very complicated.
With the Interpretations is this a other topic.

[frosty owl]

||Insert quantum penis joke||

[oblique hollow]

now tunnelling i can get behind

[earnest lantern]

he was too fast and therefore locally indeterminate.

I am hungry, it was nice with you

[fierce ruin]

Yeah but if you could determine it's location to look at it, would you really want to see one? Better to let that speedy boi keep zooming.

[earnest lantern]

if it is tiny, it is in superposition in the hole.
It could be here or there or somewhere else, who knows when you don't feel anything?

[burnt wraith]

quantum computer + quantum entanglement = quantum hacking

[fierce ruin]

nuclear pasta + nuclear fork = nuclear meal

[frosty owl]

@wind spade Small Stitched vs Bolted funfact
I just toggled it on/off on my plan for funzies, these the results:
Stiched saves some resources (I could fit ~30 more batteries in), at the cost of more buildings (~500!) and a smidge of more power (~5GW)
In picture from left: [Bolted buildings count - Stiched buildings count]
Bolted buildings count
Stiched buildings count and power
Top: Production

Also @bleak coral since we often banter about this 😆

[fierce ruin]

For a second there I was wondering if they added a new alternate recipe called "Small Stitched"

[wind spade]

while you're technically correct, I kinda object about using absolute numbers in comparing of how many more buildings you need

"needing 500 more buildings than 100" is different than "needing 500 more buildings than 100000"

percentages do much better job in displaying the relative sizes of builds

so your 500 buildings is actually only 2% more buildings

so for each 50 buildings you have to place one more

[frosty owl]

Funny how that's 5x more machines saved than extra batteries I could do with the saved resources otherwise

[thorn bane]

ok so my aluminium kept waterlocking so i made a thing

https://i.imgur.com/DfVgr88.jpeg

turns out if you have the water feeder for the alumina solution always running at 600per minute you can make the gravity splitter/VIP what ever you wanna call it work 100% reliable

the part where the fresh water (in dark blue) connects to the recycled water (in lighter blue) almost never has water flowing through it because the input pipe is running at 600 water per minute

how ever if you load unload some things and stuff breaks the water circuit wont have 600 and it will get refilled with the fresh water

this way you can use the 100% of the recycled water from the alu scrap but it is safe against water lockouts because it is connected to the fresh water

[empty glade]

I always use a recycled water circuit with a reservoir supplemented by fresh water with a valve.

It usually looks much neater than that...

[thorn bane]

ye ignore the spaghetti
i tried that at the start but would run into issues when i reload the game or go too far away unloading the factory

then for some reason they would just fill up with water blockign the whole thing

[empty glade]

Probably get the production backing up, then the incoming water goes unused and fills up the reservoir. Need to put an overflow sink on the ingot production to keep it balanced.

[thorn bane]

i have that

i ended up buildign a junction there aswell and send the overflow water to a wet concrete refinery

[empty glade]

And there's a bug that causes some fluid loss when reloading... I haven't seen that yet, but the reservoir can hold a little extra water to help with it.

[thorn bane]

i know thats what i meant

theres also lots of bugs if you go in and out of rendering distance

cause fluids work differently when youre next to them

i think that was my main issue

[empty glade]

I hope they fix that soon.... I'll have to look for that. Very interesting.

[thorn bane]

but ye thats why i made all those safety precautions and now its working 100% of the time

[empty glade]

Sloppy Alumina and Pure Aluminum Ingot are nice for getting Silica out of the picture as well.

[thorn bane]

i couldnt do that because im working at 100% efficiency so i need 1.94 aluminum ingots and 8.12 pure aluminum ingots

[glacial hemlock]

Another classic way is simply separate the machines for recycled and fresh water

[thorn bane]

again thats fine until funky stuff happens and youre sitting at full water resulting in full alumina solution preventing all the machines from working even the fresh water ones

i think im actually going insane considering this btw

[mortal spindle]

Ah, someone else discovers the insanity that is aluminum production.

[thorn bane]

thing is
this is my fourth play through making it
and i still keep finding ways for it to waterlock

[mortal spindle]

Well if even a 4th time player can't figure it out, how am I, on my first time with Aluminum, supposed to make it work?

[thorn bane]

its fine 99.9% of the time and you can always just flush it its fiiiiineeeee 🙂

[keen patio]

Does someone have some easy screenshots of an aluminum scrap (from bauxite to scrap) process that deals with the wastewater well?

I'm STILL having issues with this. I've got the VIP piping system, but my buffers are still starting to block up over time (McGalleon has already talked to me about this).. and I've tried to come up with a sort of Alumina->scrap->alumina->scrap process.. but it gets like 20 refineries deep all from a start of only 390 water/min..

Ideally what I want is a layout that gives me the right ratios of Sloppy Alumina + its water extractor water #, to Electrode Scrap refineries, and pipe setup to correctly tell me:

• How much Bauxite Im using (and therefor how much scrap is being produced)
  OR
• How much scrap is being produced

Because I can do that 20 refineries constantly repeating loop but it makes the amount of scrap Im actually making kinda wonky/unclear.

[dusty ingot]

I sure do love doing this just for the scrap

[thorn bane]

600 bauxite
3 sloppy alumina for 720 alumina solution
4 electrode scrap for 1200 aluminium scrap
5 packagers for the 600 input water
7 packagers for the recycled water (420)
3 packagers for the fresh water (180)
1.5 water extractors

can do the same with 780 i guess just need to adjust the numbers
this is the priority merger in the middle that does all the magic by prioritising the recycled water over the fresh water
https://i.imgur.com/MyRV7Vg.png

this doesnt sink any canisters so once its filled up its 100% resource efficient

[keen patio]

err, why the packagers over pipes for water?

or is it just to get away from liquid mechanics ASAP, and therefor avoid weird backups

[pulsar idol]

Idk

[boreal wyvern]

There are some weird backup problems, yes, but for a lot of people packages are preferred because it offers some more transportation options.
You can transport 3200 m3/cart with packages on trains (as opposed to 1600 in fluid carts).
And packages also means you could transport them using drones if desired.

[tropic hawk]

it also means you can sink them if you have liquid excess

[frosty owl]

Grrr, why do uranium cells stack at just 200 when machines can need up to 100 per production cycle?!

[torpid robin]

pro tip

downclock your machines

same stack size,but will need less pm lol

[frosty owl]

Why would I do that when the issue is the stack size?
I hate that it ends up backing up cells on the belt

[torpid robin]

Idunno it’s late

I think I was getting confused by what your problem with it was

[frosty owl]

I can't sushi it easily :\

[frosty owl]

I just made a small setup specifically for testing. Would you like to try it out and try waterlocking it? ^^

[wind spade]

maybe don't then 😛

[thorn bane]

as you said. Weird stuff happens and it locks out. Cant have that with packagers, this is 100% reliable

[gloomy palm]

<@&387163995947270144> may i request my new satisfactory tool be whitelisted on the domain spc.mau.life please thanks 😁

[weary ravine]

!automod whitelist add spc.mau.life

[shadow prairie]

Whitelisted 1 url.

[gloomy palm]

yeyyyy

[weary ravine]

Should work 🙂

[gloomy palm]

thank youuu!!!

[gloomy palm]

its still removing the link for some reason

[weary ravine]

Hmm

I might need an adult Baine but will look into it

Okay yeah

[gloomy palm]

ahh okay

^_^

[candid stirrup]

Wait, tf is the insanity behind it, I'm just about to try making it

Just how hard is it to balance the production and water rates?

[keen patio]

Sure, PM or in here?

@frosty owl To be clear, the 1 requirement of the setup is that it can't be .. 'overbuilt'.. eg; the machines making scrap can't be setup to be making 2000 scrap, but only be fed materials to make 1400. ((This is because a stats mod I have will tell me I have 2000 scrap production when I actually don't.))

Overfed is fine (eg; I don't care if I have a 780 belt of bauxite going in but only use 500.. My mods will autobalance.

[gloomy palm]

Hey everyone, would there be a way to write a formula to express how much time it would take for sub-100% efficiency to reach a standby state (backed up or insufficient resources)?

i believe this formula would be useful in effectively telling the player how long until the machine will stop functioning properly

i suppose i could express this programmatically, but then it wouldn't be a formula

well, it might be a start

looks like it might be something related to a balanced equation where the input should equal the output

[wind spade]

you mean on a manifold?

[bleak coral]

they mean when you're not providing enough input or not using enough output so it's starved or backed up so it's not running 100% of the time

[wind spade]

if you're using enough output, it's 100% efficiency
if you're providing less input, it's less efficiency (e.g. if you're providing 80% input, it's 80% efficiency)
if you're using less output, it's the same as above

alsp @gloomy palm ^

[gloomy palm]

yes, i understand the concept, but i'm trying to write it in the form of an equation

right now i'm figuring out what the parameters are, and have realized that im also dealing with infinities

[wind spade]

equation is literally efficiency = percentage of resources eaten/delivered

[gloomy palm]

hmm

[wind spade]

if you deliver 50% of resources, then your stuff is running at 50% efficiency

(on average of course)

[gloomy palm]

[wind spade]

unless I'm missing something, that's all that is to it

or what are you trying to figure out?

[gloomy palm]

actually im writing out how much time it would take before the efficiency leads to a standby/halt state

[wind spade]

it never does 🤔

[gloomy palm]

if at 100%, then no

[wind spade]

it'll run at 50% efficiency forever

[gloomy palm]

uh

[wind spade]

I'm a bit confused what are you talking about

[gloomy palm]

50% efficiency means the machine is operating only half the time

[wind spade]

indeed

[gloomy palm]

so what im calculating is how long until it's gonna be down

[wind spade]

it's gonna be down and up, alternating all the time

[gloomy palm]

essentially calculating the frequency

the duty cycle

[wind spade]

ah, that's not so easy, since machines have two second period when they are starting or stopping

but if you ignore that, it's pretty easy

[gloomy palm]

hmm, can it be added later as a delay?

[wind spade]

it's a delay between "I have enough resources to do a craft cycle" and "I'm starting a craft cycle" (if it was stopped before)

[gloomy palm]

so essentially it's like saying there's a phase discrepancy

between the possible duty cycle, and the actual duty cycle

of about 15 degrees or so

[wind spade]

I = [ipm provided] / [ipm needed]
T = [time to craft a recipe (including machine speed)]
D = T * (1/I)

D is time of whole cycle
D - T is downtime
T is uptime

(depending on whether you provide T in seconds or minutes, your result will be in the same unit)

[gloomy palm]

would T equal "target output item rate per minute"?

[wind spade]

T is time the machine takes to craft the recipe

[gloomy palm]

oh

[wind spade]

so e.g. Iron Plate recipe has T = 6

[gloomy palm]

so 60/target_ouput_rate

a

[wind spade]

not really

60 / [target output rate * output per craft]

but it's better to calculate directly with the recipe time variable

that's defined for each recipe

[gloomy palm]

if you're outputing 60 items per minute, then it should be taking 1 second per item no?

[wind spade]

not if you produce e.g. 3 items per craft

[gloomy palm]

oh

ohhh i forgot about that

[wind spade]

that's why I'm saying, use the recipe time directly

[gloomy palm]

hmm yes

[wind spade]

it's the "12 sec" part of UI

under the stopwatch

(or find it on wiki or in my tools)

[gloomy palm]

60 / (5 * 1) = 12

yes

[wind spade]

yeah, but it's base variable, the "5/min" is derived 😉

I like to calculate from base variables rather than from derived ones, as those may be rounded (not the case here)

[gloomy palm]

ohh

[wind spade]

anyway this should give you the result you look for, unless I misunderstood what you're after ^

[gloomy palm]

im just working on that right now actually

im just factoring the variables to see how i can make that into a running program in just a minute

i was thinking also to implement the stack size limit into the equaiton

[wind spade]

I wonder... why do you need this anyway?

[wind spade]

if you're underfeeding, you'll never get up to stack size anyway

[gloomy palm]

hmm

also the output might be blocked

so the time till your machine ends on standby is gonna be factoring in how fast stuff is output

there's no real measurement for output rate

[wind spade]

if output is blocked, it's the same. Just replace ipm provided with ipm consumed and ipm needed for ipm produced

[gloomy palm]

yeah but then you have two separate equations

[wind spade]

I is basically the % of efficiency

[gloomy palm]

should it be multiplied by 100 to become a percentage

[wind spade]

it's the same equation

[wind spade]

no

[dark badge]

@gloomy palm your tool link should work now btw

[gloomy palm]

Ooooo

https://spc.mau.life/

yeyyyyy

thank youuu @dark badge 😁

[wind spade]

most simplified form (changed variables to make more sense):

T = R * (1 / E)

T = time of whole machine cycle (turn on, turn off)
R = time to craft one recipe in seconds
E = efficiency of a machine (between 0 and 1)

T - R is downtime of a machine in seconds (per one cycle)
R is uptime of a machine in seconds (per one cycle)

[gloomy palm]

that's fascinating

[bleak coral]

as you said earlier though the warmup/cooldown time when stuff starts/stops messes it all 🤷‍♂️

[gloomy palm]

so then the time till standby is literally T/2

[bleak coral]

cause you keep getting resources during that time

[gloomy palm]

right

[wind spade]

yeah, my thingy is without considering the warmup time

but then again, I'm not sure why would you ever want to know these times, what's the advantage of knowing them (if it's not just academic interest)?

[bleak coral]

it's also why loop/recycle systems need some sort of seed to get to equilibrium, cause otherwise the startup/cooldown times keep them from ever reaching 100% efficiency

yeah I doubt there's a practical application, cause it just describes a problem in more detail rather than solves it or gives insight to new solutions

[wind spade]

since usually this kind of issue is resolved by underclocking a machine so that it matches the required speed 🤷

[gloomy palm]

well i had the thought that it might be possible to calculate how long it would take for a machine to stop entirely if the output was not being cleared fast enough, or if the input was being underfed

[wind spade]

the machine will never stop entirely though

[bleak coral]

^

[gloomy palm]

doesn't it depend

[bleak coral]

it oscillates

[wind spade]

if the input or output rate is constant, then the machine never stops forever

[gloomy palm]

if you dont attach the output to anything, the time till standby is how long it takes to fill the stack on output

[bleak coral]

oh well that's a different thing

cause it'll run at 100% efficiency until it just stops

[gloomy palm]

oh

😅

[wind spade]

sure, but then it's a completely different thing than what we were talking about and it's just
[stack size] / [production rate per second] seconds to fill

[gloomy palm]

but what if you connect a mark 1 belt to a mark 3 miner

stuff is being removed from the output, but not fast enough

[wind spade]

then you get 60 ipm output and the miner will oscillate between on and off forever (assuming the 60 ipm ore is being processed)

[gloomy palm]

ipm meaning

[wind spade]

items per minute

[gloomy palm]

ah

[gloomy palm]

so i guess the machine would display a very bad efficiency percentage there?

it spends most of the time on standby

[wind spade]

well that depends on node purity and overclocking, but yeah, it'll have lesser efficiency

e.g. mk3 on impure will have 50%, mk3 on normal will have 25%, etc.

[gloomy palm]

i'm just tryina think how this might be useful information to calculate this duty cycle

i think nobody should aim for less than 100% efficiency

[bleak coral]

it just all goes back to matching inputs/outputs, as long as you're doing that you're fine

[gloomy palm]

right

[tropic hawk]

i do i/m for that

[wind spade]

I don't think it's important in any way. As long as you're processing all the resources you want to process, you're technically reaching 100% efficiency (material efficiency, not machine efficiency)

[gloomy palm]

i would say ppm

[wind spade]

ipm is easier to write 😉

[tropic hawk]

parts per million?

[gloomy palm]

oh yeah

[bleak coral]

upm 😉

[tropic hawk]

I try to not use acronyms that already have a standard use

[gloomy palm]

u r right

[tropic hawk]

U?

[wind spade]

also wiki calls them items (https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Items) so I do as well 🙂

[gloomy palm]

umbrellas per minute

[tropic hawk]

ah

[tropic hawk]

so do I

i/m just like m/s mi/h, f/s, and more

[bleak coral]

units per minute I think? catches liquids too

[gloomy palm]

oh

a unit of liquid?

the game uses cubic meters for liquids and gases right

[wind spade]

yeah, but then again, ipm is way faster to type than i/m

[bleak coral]

or it's from something else that I can't remember right now (for some reason I'm remembering something using u or something that looked like u for parts)

[wind spade]

internally it uses liters/dm3, but it displays m3 to players

[gloomy palm]

ah

[tough stratus]

is there a prevailing opinion on silicon vs. caterium circuit boards?

[tropic hawk]

good to know

[gloomy palm]

ah @wind spade now i remember why it was i had started this quest to begin with, i was tryina find a better way to represent the "Efficiency" scale in the game since it wasn't well defined as to what efficiency was referring to, and then @bleak coral said that it was basically the uptime of the machine, which is where i started to wonder how many types of ways there were for the machine to experience a downtime and how that affected the percentage.

[tropic hawk]

depends how you type

[wind spade]

usually whatever you want to use/have extra of
they are both decent iirc

[wind spade]

(almost) 10 fingers 🤷

[tropic hawk]

I just plug in the end product on an optimization calculator to figure it out for me. I got most of an excel database up and running before I found the calculator sites...

[tropic hawk]

interested on the almost part there

[gloomy palm]

2 thumbs for space bar \o/

[wind spade]

I never officially learned so it's more like 5-10 depending on what I'm writing at the moment

the point is that / is all the way on the right where numpad is, which isn't really friendly to fast typing. There's also one somewhere next to enter key, but I can't be bothered to use that, since I'm using two different keyboard layouts depending on which language I'm using (native/english) and that changes the position of the / key

[gloomy palm]

/ is next to my right shift key

[wind spade]

it's there for me as well, but only for one layout

for the second one it's on the right of P key and is typed with shift

[bleak coral]

meh I have to actually think to press / as opposed to p

[wind spade]

^ that's exactly why I usually just go with ipm

[tropic hawk]

i got querty

[bleak coral]

it's not like a long thought, but it occurs as opposed to being muscle memory

[wind spade]

I often mistype because I use the key from the other keyboard layout than what I currently have, so it types something else 🤷

[tough stratus]

yeah though a pure mathematical calculation based on scarcity of each resource will lead you to caterium circuit boards, but I get the impression that oil has more uses relative to resource availability than quartz does, thus making the determination difficult

[bleak coral]

oh nah oil is super plentiful

it's got a ton of really efficient recipes, and most of it's uses are for optional alts

[gloomy palm]

looks like / is the same on both types

[wind spade]

both of my layouts are querty, just one has differently placed "special" keys than the other one 🤷

[tropic hawk]

I have ANSI then

[tropic hawk]

depends on how many lights you want to make

[gloomy palm]

same

it's transparent on dark background

[wind spade]

uhhh, discord transparency

[gloomy palm]

is that polish

dutch

[gloomy palm]

ukranian

[wind spade]

essentially one is standard english querty, the other one is like that ^

it's czech

[gloomy palm]

ah

my next guess was gonna be hungarian

[wind spade]

so yeah, the / is in different position each time, so I rather use the numpad one, which isn't ideal when I want to type fast 🤷

[gloomy palm]

yeah that's unfortunate that it's in a different location like that

[gloomy palm]

is that a laptop keyboard?

not an extended one

[wind spade]

it's random wikipedia image 🤷 mine looks slightly differently (enter is two rows and the key above enter is in the middle row on the left of the enter key)

[gloomy palm]

ahh

[wind spade]

(and ofc mine has numpad)

[gloomy palm]

ah right, i was gonna say

welp

:/

I think maybe time for sleep

you know the phrase "I think therefore I am"? well I raise you "I can no longer think therefore I sleep"

goodnight 😁😁

thanks for everyone's help with the math, I appreciate ☺️

hope everyone enjoys the remainder of their day

see y'all soon 😊

[frosty owl]

Tell me about it, took me forever to figure out why I kept typing in Russian mid-game

[earnest glen]

Hello, there is a way around the bug with mk2 pipes to use a pure oil extractor fully overclocked?

[frosty owl]

Sure, just split the pipe leaving a single segment using the full mk2 from the extractor to the junction

Eg: make a 480 and 120 pipes as soon as you can after the 600 extractor

[earnest glen]

I already have tried this, maybe the single segment Is Just too long 🤔

[frosty owl]

The lenght isn't important, but it should be a single segment if possible (dismantle tool highlights a single segment between the extractor and the first junction)

[earnest glen]

Maybe thats the problem, i have a pump before the junction

Thank you very much!

[frosty owl]

Could be

[gloomy palm]

one time my nuclear plant broke down and waste had backed up everywhere. I had removed an accessory from the pipeline somewhere and didn't realize that removing the accessory also deleted a small portion of piping. something ended up getting starved of the resource and i had to disable the power plants and leave the nuclear waste processing plant to continue working completely overclocked until the waste was gone before being able to start the nuclear generators again

and this happened more than once im ashamed to say lol

it's what happens when you're in a hurry to finish something

[oblique hollow]

usually, when you snap attachements onto pipes, you can safely remove them again

but when you build the attachements first and then connect the pipe, it leaves a gap

[tropic hawk]

yep

[gloomy palm]

ahhhhh good to know

[earnest glen]

Yay seems to work

[viscid shadow]

So i discovered free energy can some one confirm? If you set a constructor to 1% overclock, it uses 0 power

but it still constructs the item eventually

[versed violet]

It uses little power but still some power

[oblique hollow]

not really 0 MW, around 0.1 MW

[versed violet]

While it does indeed allow huge power savings, I'm afraid your PC will die before you achieve any meaningful return due to number of extra machines

[oblique hollow]

good luck getting anywhere by replacing one machine with 100 set to 1%

[fierce ruin]

That sounds like a headache

[plain ferry]

And I think it's hard to build a good factory with everything on 100% 😦

[versed violet]

Define 'good'

[fierce ruin]

What do you so much need fabric for?

[versed violet]

parachutes probably

[oblique hollow]

you mean factory, right? xd

[fierce ruin]

But your probably better off getting a jetpack by the time you can automate fabric

[plain ferry]

Yeah

[fierce ruin]

And if not for parachutes they must be for filters but I'm not sure why you would need more than 2 or 3 machines for making filters

[versed violet]

The theoretical maximum of filters you'll need per minute for single player is 5

[viscid shadow]

OK so I did a test and 25% rounds down to the same value as 1% when burning biofuel

[oblique hollow]

power generators work differently

[viscid shadow]

so there is a minimum value that must be burned to make power

interesting

The idea was that if you want more power you can simply underclock more refineries to make more power out of the same amount of limited fuel resources

[solid portal]

whats the point of lowering bio burnders

[versed violet]

bioburner will automatically scale down to consumption

[solid portal]

they burn depending on how much is need

[oblique hollow]

there is no point, that is the point

[versed violet]

While you can build more buildings to save power, its not really viable vs space taken.

The optimal clock is 100% - going higher costs relatively more energy and uses slugs, going lower wastes potential building output while not giving significant return.

[viscid shadow]

So the point is, can you get more power by building more refineries and underclock them

[oblique hollow]

only so much

[solid portal]

i only use oc bio burners when opening ships so i don't have to bother with spitting the leaves

[viscid shadow]

yes... 1%

[oblique hollow]

its a better idea to go nuclear and underclock accelerators and blenders

there the power saved is HUGE

[viscid shadow]

the concept is the same though

[plain ferry]

I like to overclock Miners so I don't need to build long ways to get the resources , but everything else should be on 100%, it's the best way

[fierce ruin]

But you can save yourself time, headaches and logistics issues by not

[solid portal]

i just make tons and tons and tons of coal plants

[versed violet]

At some point, time spent on building extra buildings will be more than time needed to build bigger power grid

[viscid shadow]

but there is a max amount of resources on the map, and the idea is, can i get more power

[versed violet]

Miners obviously at max belt capacity, because you cant just build another one next to it

[versed violet]

Don't think anyone used all the power available

[oblique hollow]

you know what else is limited? your RAM

and the map

[viscid shadow]

if you say all oil, coal, and uranium is perfectly optimized, can you underclock your production to the point that you have almost infanite power

[plain ferry]

Yeah that's my point

[oblique hollow]

uranium's only purpose is power anyway

[versed violet]

No, uranium only purpose is making uranium waste. Power is just byproduct 😉

[fierce ruin]

Uranium is tasty

[wind spade]

but what do you use that power for?

[torpid robin]

You can get pretty much info are power now can’t you . I havnt looked at nuclear set ups in a while . But last I looked going into plutonium power would give you so much you wouldn’t never be able to use it atm without rubbing out if resources . That was before some balance changes . Is that still the case ?

[wind spade]

I think nuclear is slightly more balanced now, but you can still get ~1 TW of power, which is more than enough for any kind of base

[torpid robin]

Yea exactly lol . I think when I was looking at it . I was able to use like 600gw or something like that

[viscid shadow]

The max power is just a self end game score. who can have the most power

[torpid robin]

i mean moving into the end game it very well may be needed

we still have quantum stuff to come. shit son,can you imagine that power useage . big oof

[bleak coral]

yeah mark's mentioned before that some of the balancing looks questionable because the game isn't finished, and they've added stuff that'll make more sense when everything is added

a good example is all the oil alts that were shit when U3 dropped, but after mk2 pipes and resource wells they look a lot better since there's now way more oil

[torpid robin]

i think itys why people need to keep an open mind about things, yea i get it. the stuff they have now needs to work with each other. but gotta keep future in mind

[limpid hill]

i need help with some calculations i got a single pure iron node and miner mk.2 with 2 enhancements, so I'm planning to do something like this;

8refinery->480 iron
9plate->144
18rod-->264
10screw-->400
-60 ingot
(37constructor)
2plate2-->24
8qube-->16
(10assembler)

some is at 80% for numbers sake but im not sure if this is the best way to make modular frames

[frosty owl]

It's a decent way
Not the most resource efficient, nor the one using less machine

(Resource efficiency require stitched plates, less machines means bolted recipes)

[viscid shadow]

The best way to do a build is to make the last item first, then work backwards. Its always OK to have more production so that there is no back up

[modern lotus]

how do i go about calculating how many rotors i can make per minute with a certain amount of ore?

i have 120 ore and want to make as many rotors as possible but dont know how to calculate it as it doesnt evenly come out to 3 assemblers

[wind spade]

or without alts:

[calm gale]

i 100% call BS on this one

[wind spade]

Why

[calm gale]

cause ive tried that exact setup and it didnt work

the math checkes out but the setup doesnt

[burnt wraith]

isn't that just user error then?

[calm gale]

TBH idk but no matter how i tried the setup and it didnt work for 120 or 112.5

[burnt wraith]

I'm curious now

[burnt wraith]

oh

[burnt wraith]

were you trying to stick 266 screws onto a 120 conveyor belt?

[calm gale]

nopt i used mk3 belts and mk4 and neither worked

[wind spade]

Are all machines pre-filled or given enough time to fill?

[calm gale]

i gave them several hours b4 these pics were taken to fill or start yet nothing

even stupider on 90 i made this work

[bleak coral]

did you upgrade belts after stuff was built?

[wind spade]

That just seems like an error in your build

[calm gale]

TBH idk greeny but if i can make the build work on 90 but not on 112.5 somethings ducky

Lund no need i used top belts when i made this

only thing i can think of is belt speeds for stuff that "require" mk1 might of been bad or even mk2

[wind spade]

If you can make the build work on 90, but not 112.5, then more reasons to think it's user error

[bleak coral]

I do definitely see mixed belts, so I wouldn't rule out a small section of belt that's the wrong mk

[calm gale]

thats wat i dont get greeny

[bleak coral]

part of why I don't mix belts in general, just use the fastest one for everything

[calm gale]

the 2nd set of pics are it working 100% on 90 ore

[calm gale]

i only did that cause i wasnt sure if using belts that are faster then the ammounts being made would cause issues

[bleak coral]

it doesn't

the only reason to use mixed belts is if you've got some weird balancer setup that needs to use them to bottleneck an output or input on a splitter or merger

[calm gale]

my thinking was since the rods were being split then only mk1s for anything under 60 but mk2 for over 60 and mk3-4 for screws

[bleak coral]

it's unnecessary complications, mk3/4 can do all of that just fine, you just added more opportunities for mistakes

[calm gale]

ok then i need to find a basic (female dog) setup that works 100% of the time that can actually help me make sense of all this

TBH ive only ever found 1 setup for that but that one is way to simple and idk if it even counts

[bleak coral]

I mean you've got one in the 90 setup, so you did it right, which is really why I suspect there's some belt bottlneck somewhere if the only difference is the throughput is higher

and small sections of low-mk belt bottlenecking are the worst to diagnose, cause it takes forever to track them down

cause they friggin' hide from you

[calm gale]

i need to find a massive flat area in SF to make an actual build cause making these broken builds is agrivating

[burnt wraith]

worked for me
bottom -> top: 4 smelters/8 constructors/8 constructors/3 assemblers

5/9 of the rods going to screws, 4/9 going to rotors

[icy adder]

guys i just got the game and i made a material miner smelter and converter and storage

bit off topic but eh

[versed violet]

#screenshots

[spring shell]

i tried to add the Fused Wire recipe to the calculator and it never change the layout or anything for AI Limiters, any ideas?

[torpid robin]

Yea don’t used fused wire

But did you in tick the actual wire recipe

Untick

The calc will think it’s more efficient to use the normal recipe not the fused wire one

[spring shell]

i was just thinking the Fused Wire one so that i have Caterium left over for other recipes in the future, its my first playthrough so idk what Caterium is used for fully yet and i have a 240 copper and 240 caterium belt

[wind spade]

aren't you talking about fused quickwire?

[spring shell]

i realize i had the wrong alternate clicked

[torpid robin]

I think he might be lol

[spring shell]

and now everything changed...

[torpid robin]

Lol

[wind spade]

fused wire wastes caterium on wire. Fused quickwire saves caterium (for some copper) on quickwire

first one is very situational, second one is very good

[spring shell]

i was trying to say the Fused Quickwire recipe

ive never been this far and was thinking of just doing the 20 AI Limiters a minute, but was told in the questions and help chat that it would be better to use the Fused Quickwire recipe and have Caterium left over due to recipes later on

i wasnt told was recipes though

[torpid robin]

Well they are correct with the fused quick wire

[wind spade]

(you can also just enable all alternate recipes and see what the tool suggests. Then you can disable those you don't want to use)

[spring shell]

so i go from 20 AI Limiters per minute with straight 240 of each, to 13/m with 240 copper and 65 Caterium

[torpid robin]

To start the game . 13 pm limiters is heaps

[spring shell]

but later on its not nearly enough?

[torpid robin]

well i mkae 15 pm atm. they go to my hub an excess to sink

when i make a new line that needs ai limitiers. i still wont touchj those 15. thats a finished line. il go make more of them, but il ignore them until i actually need some

[spring shell]

okay, i was wanting to make a main storage and the video i watched involves a LOT of smart splitters so thats why i went towards AI limiters

[wind spade]

main storage can be done with just one smart splitter per item type

so that's around 30-40 smart splitters

(just overflow each item to sink)

[spring shell]

yeah, the one i was watching is a couple storages are always filled for when you need to grab from them, you can take outputs and run lines and then anything thats overflow goes into sinks

[wind spade]

there's like 100 item types, but realistically you only want to be storing building materials, so that's not too many

and you only need one smart splitter per item type (main direction -> storage, overflow -> sink)

you'd need two smart splitters per item if you also want a "dump trash here" container that sorts stuff into storage

[torpid robin]

yea i have considered the trash. and then decided if i wanna get rid of anything i just delete it in inventory lol

if you have a proper overflow system its not needed imo

its not like the handful of stuff ais gonna get you m,any tickets

[wind spade]

well I assume it'll be mostly used for processing anything you've found (so hard drives towards MAM, slugs converted to power shards, bio stuff converted to biomass->liquid biofuel, etc.)

or if you just take e.g. a lot of computers and only use a few and are too lazy returning them back to proper container

[bleak coral]

Most main storage styles actually even do 2 item types per smart splitter, just need to elevate or put it underneath to leave walking room

[wind spade]

I'd say it's better to put each item on separate belt though, so it's easier to scale up if needed (and save on smart splitters and complexity). But that's just my opinion, a lot of people have single belt input into their main storage 🤷

[torpid robin]

yea i dont like the single inpuit belt

i have one for each item going to storage

seems overkill compared to others i have seen

but i found works better, and less complicaTED

[bleak coral]

that's so many belts though, and you really don't need high throughput on storage items, the biggest downside of course is actually keeping track of each belt to make sure you're not overloading them

[torpid robin]

yea it is alot of belts agree, thats the biggest downside

but now i dont need to keep track of anythiong

and i have a bit of other storage right off the end of the line. so i can take a whole container of stuff, and it will get filled upm again within a couple of mins

[bleak coral]

I have 3 belts, vs the like 29+ I'd need otherwise

just for the cost of having 1 spreadsheet

[torpid robin]

i got sick of having a spreadsheet

i kept forgetting to update it 😂

its not hard for me to run a belt to the factory

i gotta run a hyper tube and power line to it anyway so doesnt take any longer

[thorn bane]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=GlYjOw8wp99ZvduVDDqC
i actually only use 75% fused quickwire and 25% normal quickwire because im so starved on copper

[wind spade]

Understandable, on the other hand, stuff usually comes to storage from different directions or even in different trains, so I think more belts would still be justified

[orchid oriole]

how much fuel generators do i need for 1000 fuel a min

[bleak coral]

fuel generators use 12/min fuel so 1000/12

[orchid oriole]

ty

what about pipe limitations?

[bleak coral]

like what are they? that's in the descriptions of the pipes
how to get around them? use multiple pipes

[orchid oriole]

1 pipe of 400 1 of 600

[torpid robin]

2 of 500?

[wind spade]

Or two of 500

[torpid robin]

10 of 100?

[bleak coral]

max flowrate mk2 is a bit unstable, so yeah I'd do two of 500

[torpid robin]

this

[orchid oriole]

idk math ,why am i playing a math game

[torpid robin]

cause you can learn said math as you go

[bleak coral]

what's next 100 machines of 1% clock speed

[torpid robin]

ye, why not?

200 at .5?

[bleak coral]

can't go below 1

[torpid robin]

now we are talking

oh sad

[bleak coral]

it changes it to 1 if you try

[wind spade]

That was my first question when they added decimals lol

[bleak coral]

inconveniently it changes it after you exit the UI so it does it behind your back lol

[wind spade]

If we can do 1e6 buildings at 1e-4%

[bleak coral]

I thought it was possible until I saw it mentioned specifically on the wiki and double checked, I was sad

[thorn bane]

do you guys split your oil lines down from 600 to 300 at the extractor?

im not sure if i should start doing that

[torpid robin]

yes

i dont ever let any pipes run near 600

500 ish max

[thorn bane]

i mean the output is 600 so youre capped by that anyway

isnt that like splitting a 780 belt from a miner into 2 belts

[torpid robin]

the 780 belts dont suffer the same as pieps do with the loss of flow of a mk2

i believe it has to do with the junctions

iirc

[wind spade]

actually, belts suffer more than pipes do 🙂

belts lose throughput after each segment, pipes don't loose any. Just pipe manifolds are broken and need to be looped at the end

[torpid robin]

does it? i wasnt actually 100% sure. truth be told i try very hard not to have belts maxed out too

[fringe pawn]

Pipes do have the fluid loss issue

Indirectly related, but it's there

[torpid robin]

yea so thats whyh i thought you do the split right at the start

i mean hay im no expert

but thats what i have seen discussed in this disc. which was the point i was making to his question

[fringe pawn]

The problem with pipes is that every time you reload the game, each machine vanishes 5 m/3

Or something like that

[wind spade]

pipe loss issue = pipe lose 5m3 for each fluid input on load

[torpid robin]

but on to this comment. cause i have wondered and have made the comment before about a 780 losing through put. thats when i was playing with trains a while ago. are you meaning like in a manifold it can lose through put through the splitters? or are you mean after each section of belt you place one after another?

[wind spade]

so it's not related to max throughput, it's related to slight overproduction being very much recommended for any fluid

[torpid robin]

just to clarify

[wind spade]

each segment connection seems to lose small amounts of throughput and it also seems to be percentage related, so mk5s are hit more than the others

but I'm just repeating what I heard other people say, so I can't actually confirm or deny that it's true

[torpid robin]

arrrh right , interesting then. when i was playing a while ago i dont think this was known, so this is new to me. that does explain a bit fropm my last save though. il keep it in mind

[thorn bane]

do you know any rough numbers for when that is fine? like 770/750/700

[torpid robin]

if its only on load, shouldnt it sort itself out after a bit though?

[wind spade]

if you consume the same amount as you produce, it leads to issues

[fringe pawn]

This bug ruined my closed sulfuric acid system for nuclear waste recycling.

[torpid robin]

yea i could see it would have a knock on effect. i suppose itl have a small dip in production right through to the end of the line that its in

[wind spade]

indeed

[earnest glen]

There are 2 different bugs with pipes. First, you can't max capacity on mk2. Second, the fluid loss at reload

For the first, just split the pipes, for the second use buffers so at least you can deal with the problem only once in a while

Or overproduce, but it doesn't work with closed recycle system Eg. Water for aluminium

I spend so much time around this two issues 😅 😅

[oblique hollow]

thats why, for aluminum, i use input priority for the feedback water.
that way, if anything drops, the water extractors can top it off

[earnest glen]

how did you implement input priority? I actually have a valve on extractors limiting throughput, but when system stops i have to manually open it

[earnest glen]

ok, so i just need to move extractor pipe on top before manifold, thank you!

[oblique hollow]

it specifically needs 2 vertical junctions

2 vertical junctions connected to each other behave different from normal junctions

[earnest glen]

mh ok i'll see if i can fit that system in the mess below the machines 😄

[tough stratus]

fwiw, I've also had difficulty maxing out mk1 pipes. I had 20 turbofuel refineries powering 80 generators (should be enough for 83), but the 4 generators weren't getting enough fuel. My supply pipe was upgraded to mk2 after the 15th refinery in the chain (my math said I shouldn't need it till 16), but the 1st 3 refineries kept idling due to turbofuel backups. This was fixed by adding mk2 pipes 2 refineries further back on the manifold. (Another hunch I have is that this might have been related to an inconsistent supply through a couple pumps between the refineries and generators)

[earnest glen]

yeah i deal with a lot of problems around my first "big" fuel gen setup

using looped inputs and buffers seems to have permanently solve the issue at the cost of only one gen less than math told me

[empty glade]

Input priority? This isn't Factorio; what are you referring to?

[empty glade]

Why do you say you can't max capacity of mk2 pipes? I do it all the time.

[oblique hollow]

You can make a pipe take priority over another for difficult processes like aluminum where 100% efficiency never works

because of game bugs

and what im refering to is that image i shared

[earnest glen]

it doesnt 😦 try OC a pure oil at 600, the connect the single pipe to your machines: you can even pre-fill the pipes, but soon or later some of the machine will starve

[empty glade]

I see how that can work

[empty glade]

Have you tried using a reservoir with a pump after, and a touch extra production? I suppose the pump probably shouldn't be necessary once there's a good amount of water in the reservoir.

[oblique hollow]

aluminum is a fickle process. either you find some machines to feed the water to or you set it up so you have exactly enough water,
the problem with that is you lose 5m³ from every machine upon loading the game thanks to some issue with the save system

[empty glade]

I set up water recycling with an industrial reservoir so it has some extra water buffer, and space to store some extra water.

[oblique hollow]

storing helps only for so long if you have extra input

once the reservoir is dry the machines halt

and if you have 100 machines, thats 500m³ disappearing upon loading the game

[empty glade]

I can check on it every few gameplay sessions; the reservoir setup lasts long enough for that.

[earnest glen]

i didn't tried that honestly

[empty glade]

I use a valve to get exactly what is needed in the recycle loop, to keep the reservoir from filling or emptying. Then I can use the valve to adjust the water level in the reservoir once in a while.

[earnest glen]

but now that i've achieved 100% efficency on that oil node i won't touch it again 😄

[empty glade]

I was in a session recently as well, where water in a pipe in a power plant was backflowing near the end of the line, to even out the amount of water in the pipe, apparently. He fixed it with one-way valves every 4 machines.

[earnest glen]

that's also what i do, but if VIP works i can forget about checking that factory

[empty glade]

VIP?

[oblique hollow]

VIP = Variable Input Priority

the image i shared

[empty glade]

Oh, ok

[oblique hollow]

its a short but effective name, and people really picked up on it

[earnest glen]

sorry my english is bad, i just mix up a bit of italian 😄

[empty glade]

Is there a reason you need that upper cross and can't use just a bending pipe?

[oblique hollow]

two junctions just behave differently

i cant explain the math behind it but theres some funny stuff going on

[empty glade]

sounds like a myth to me

[oblique hollow]

its just an effect i observed

i know, but you could try many things.

i tried a single vertical junction

and that isnt as well-behaved as 2 connected with each other

flat (horizontall) junctions dont do this

[wind spade]

I don't like the fact that the shortcut is VIP, would be much better imo if it was something that's not an existing well-known shortcut

[oblique hollow]

very important pipe xd

[gloomy palm]

very important pipeline

[gloomy palm]

ayeeeee

[empty glade]

How else could I scam people into paying for VIP?

[oblique hollow]

theres also one for output priority: the VOP

but that doesnt have as many usage cases

and if you combine the 2 you get the VOIP 😆

[empty glade]

I think for this, VOP is more accurate, as you're really prioritizing output, not 2 inputs.

[wind spade]

Which is also an existing shortcut 🤷‍♂️

[gloomy palm]

voice over input pipes

[oblique hollow]

it is input priority though. if you only connect one output to the vip, then the bottom input gets priority

Many In, Little Out = VIP
Little In, Many Out = VOP
Many In, Many Out = VIP+VOP

[wind spade]

MILO, LIMO and MIMO... xD

[gloomy palm]

MIMO is a thing

[wind spade]

(also terrible shortcuts tbh)

[oblique hollow]

accurate would be: Bounded Input, Bounded Output. but that also exists for control engineering

[gloomy palm]

liquids in real life dont know what priorities are

they just flow wherever is easiest

[oblique hollow]

in satis, the do too. but because of some funny code junctions do weird stuff

[wind spade]

Well it doesn't have to be accurate, it needs good and non-conflicting shortcut, or just call it priority splitter junction

[oblique hollow]

IPS

[gloomy palm]

inline priority section?

[oblique hollow]

BIP, bottom input priority

[gloomy palm]

bip

[empty glade]

Hence VOP, as this has one in, 2 out.

[oblique hollow]

which one? the image i shared?

[empty glade]

yes

[oblique hollow]

the right side of that image is input

[earnest glen]

https://tenor.com/view/cray-lost-it-gone-mad-going-mad-stressed-gif-5502030

[oblique hollow]

its VIP

[gloomy palm]

in electrical components, switches with different amounts of poles and throws are named like Single Pole Single Throw (SPST), Double Pole Single Throw (DPST), Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) etc

[oblique hollow]

that would get too confusing

[gloomy palm]

Single Feed Multi Drain

[oblique hollow]

calling it by its full name, the VIP Junction, would avoid some confusion

as just "VIP" is a bit ambigous, yes

but adding "junction" to the end should resolve that

[fringe pawn]

I'm nervous about pipe changes breaking VIP in U5.

[oblique hollow]

we'll see what happens

[fringe pawn]

I got the vague impression that they're reworking the system, so who knows what unintended consequences that will have.

[oblique hollow]

im checking the fluid system with every larger update anyway

so far, the fluid update seems to have been the only one to change things up a bit

[gloomy palm]

according to some sources, proper names for plumbing or engineered piping setup inputs and outputs are:

• Inlet/Outlet
• Intake/Discharge
• Suction/Drain
  or a combination of these

[frosty owl]

Am I really the only one who likes to actually see the items on belts instead of a blur? (choosing MK3 over mk5 when possible)

[gloomy palm]

personally i think Inlet and Outlet are nice terms for piping and pipeline accessories

[oblique hollow]

aka input and output xd

[gloomy palm]

xD yeah but more pipe-y

[oblique hollow]

ive been using input and output for everything since thats how everything in satis is labled

[gloomy palm]

labels can be changed 👀

[oblique hollow]

all ingame descriptions, even for pipe stuff, is "input" and "output"

and i will NOT raid the English translation page on crowdin

[gloomy palm]

👀

i could ask my pipeline engineer friend in germany what his advice is

nothing to lose to ask 😄

[frosty owl]

So just adding pipe B to pipe A using a vertical junction doesn't equal to a simple VIP right?

[oblique hollow]

not quite. best case, it tries to behave like one

buuuut after trying it myself, its just not the same

it is somewhat effective though

just not 100%

[frosty owl]

Uff, I really don't like the look of the two junctions above one another though :/

[empty glade]

Oh, so which one gets priority?

[oblique hollow]

the pipe connected to the bottom junction

the image in sent before explained all that

read it carefully

[gloomy palm]

my friend got back to me, apparently what would be an input for a tank or piece of equipment would be called an "access port" or just "port" for short

[empty glade]

Interesting... I came up with a similar recycle setup without the top cross and decided it was a good thing... didn't know about the priority mechanic.

[gloomy palm]

c.c. @oblique hollow

[oblique hollow]

oh yeah, game does use Port

[gloomy palm]

a

[oblique hollow]

but the game also say "Input Port" and "Output Port"

[gloomy palm]

ahh that would be roughly the same yeah

[oblique hollow]

so i just shortened it to input and output

i do use "port" when i talk about those connections precisely

[gloomy palm]

inport and outport

[oblique hollow]

starboard and larboard xd

[gloomy palm]

xD

[earnest glen]

working on aluminium production i had trouble with piping water back to bauxite refinement: using valves doesn't really helped much, i end up putting 3 pipes for 8 refineries (1600 water) connected as a sort of "grid", where each of the 3 pipe is connected to each other and then to the machines and its working just fine. Something like this:

is it fine or there is a better way?

[gloomy palm]

the pipe guys agree that input port and output port makes sense

[oblique hollow]

if you want you can show him my pipe manual and see what he says about it xd

[gloomy palm]

😄

is it online?

[frosty owl]

Why would you even ask that

[oblique hollow]

sure. pinned in the #math-and-meta channel

[gloomy palm]

thanks found it

[oblique hollow]

its on my google drive, free for anyone to download

[empty glade]

Actually, this is probably the best setup for adding water to recycling. Better than my reservoir and valve or anything else.

[oblique hollow]

it is ideal for setups where you cannot let it run at 100% efficiency

[gloomy palm]

so the game doesn't seem to know that athmospheric pressure is a thing

[oblique hollow]

not really

[empty glade]

No siphon mechanic

[oblique hollow]

imagine if we had to care about that

[gloomy palm]

you'd actually need more power to lift the water which is in the larger pipe section since the water weighs more

gravity would be no help there lel

[oblique hollow]

its really only that you dont need any extra power to go back up if the pipe drops below the height of the pump

you can go down " for free" and then rise back to the same height

[gloomy palm]

yeah.. free

[empty glade]

Gravity is kinda weird in this game... unless the pioneer is super-human. Have you noticed how high you jump? Gravity is higher than Earth's; stuff falls faster.

[gloomy palm]

nothing is free in real life

[oblique hollow]

lets be glad this game isnt realistic

[gloomy palm]

yet

[oblique hollow]

your friend surely agrees

[gloomy palm]

he says

"pipelines don't really have input and output they have connections"

[empty glade]

At least there is no air pressure in empty pipes to overcome

[gloomy palm]

rip pumps

[earnest glen]

also this: i found it does not work always

[oblique hollow]

i applied some more abstract thinking and treat pipe systems like electronic circuits

[gloomy palm]

yeah it seems that way

[oblique hollow]

not to mention i LITERALLY built a NAND Gate with pipes

[gloomy palm]

daheq xD

[oblique hollow]

yes, Fluid Logic Gates

its insanity

[gloomy palm]

water looks for the path of least resistance

if you put water in a pipeline, it would spread out as thinly as it could

to get to the lowest part it can go

[oblique hollow]

it.... sorta.... tries that in satis

[gloomy palm]

it almost looks like one section fills at a time

[oblique hollow]

sections talk to each other with a hidden pressure system, which seems to be disconnected from head lift

[gloomy palm]

mhmm

[oblique hollow]

Eh, Potato Potato

[gloomy palm]

potato patato

[oblique hollow]

I / O in any case

if you wanna confuse your friend, tell him that Valves set to 0m³/min block flow, but not head lift

so you can transmit pressure through closed valves

[gloomy palm]

ah he's not a satisfactory player

he works at actual oil refineries or what have you

[oblique hollow]

doenst matter, anyone who deals with pipes IRL will be confused by such a statement

[gloomy palm]

i think confusing because doesn't know what the heck im referring to xD

[empty glade]

Ha! so a pipe going up after a valve will empty

[oblique hollow]

if you "close" a valve, it block flow, but not pressure

[gloomy palm]

how can this be a thing

[empty glade]

magic

[gloomy palm]

who developed the fluid dynamics

[oblique hollow]

dylan

[gloomy palm]

isn't there already water physics in Unreal Engine?

[oblique hollow]

i dunno, but i doubt that they would be economically viable for Satisfactory

[gloomy palm]

😦

[empty glade]

It's probably worse

[oblique hollow]

the game makes some gross assumptions to make it easier for players

[gloomy palm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enb1Sz7-gJw

this is real time simulation

[oblique hollow]

yea thats probably unusable for Satis

we dont care about graphics, we only want numbers

[gloomy palm]

can you simulate without rendering it?

[oblique hollow]

yeah but isnt that intensive anyway

you have to model pipes to be actual channels

[gloomy palm]

yeah but it's currently not realistic

[gloomy palm]

i mean this video was from 2016, it could only have become better by now

[oblique hollow]

i think they implemented some weird sort of fluid dynamics formula based on navier stokes or maybe euler or whatnot

[gloomy palm]

😮

[oblique hollow]

the issue is: the game struggles with large deltas

[gloomy palm]

delta what

[oblique hollow]

changes

[gloomy palm]

ohhh

[oblique hollow]

large changes

thats why mk 2 pipes struggle with the full 600 m³/min

[gloomy palm]

😭

[oblique hollow]

the game seems to run math with liters, so 1000 units

[gloomy palm]

how can we fix 🥺

[frosty owl]

That's real-time simulation but with 100% GPU usage

[oblique hollow]

haha, satis already chugs away 50% of your gpu

[gloomy palm]

😭

[oblique hollow]

so thats why they had to resort to simplififactions

[gloomy palm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i-OG3n2tvw

[oblique hollow]

since, you know, they dont need to render just one large lake

or rather, calculate a lake

[gloomy palm]

calculake

[oblique hollow]

they need to calculate fast currents thousands of times

[frosty owl]

I mean, sure, you could make the simulation less precise and cut down on GPU usage, but it's still too much processing work for a game that isn't centered around fluid dynamics/visual effects imo

[gloomy palm]

hmmm

but pipes are fluid dynamic centric

it took me ages to figure out why fluid wasn't working

[oblique hollow]

yeah but fluid dynamic math is also intensive

[gloomy palm]

😦

[oblique hollow]

the main goal is simply: i want fluid to flow somewhere

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[oblique hollow]

and i want it to be calculated fast and easy

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[oblique hollow]

so CSS made some gross assumptions and applied a very simplified fluid dynamic approach

[gloomy palm]

[oblique hollow]

except for some funny edge cases, it behaves SOOORTA accurate

[gloomy palm]

when you say gross, you don't mean the "ew" kind of gross right

[oblique hollow]

no, i mean "big"

[gloomy palm]

you mean the "net, gross" kind of thing

[oblique hollow]

yea

[gloomy palm]

ah

[oblique hollow]

overly simplified assumptions

[gloomy palm]

the "ew assumptions"

[frosty owl]

To move fluids in pipes you need very little calculation, but adding the creation of the shape of the fluid makes it MUUUUUCH more complex:
Instead of just calculating flow and amount of fluid, you now need pressure, surface tension and such using the feared particle simulation

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[oblique hollow]

also, since this is 3d, height also now plays a role

[gloomy palm]

but isn't all that handled by the game engine?

[frosty owl]

It's still tons of processing

[oblique hollow]

its also not the only thing being mathed

belts and machines also still exist

[gloomy palm]

that's one thing i never understood is that when fluid goes in, all the pipes in a section horizontally should have the fluid be at an equal height as the pipes fill up on the same plane

[oblique hollow]

the problem is pipes can only talk to neighbors

[frosty owl]

Like fluids would cost 1000%+ more processing power I think

[gloomy palm]

hmm

[oblique hollow]

not to pipes one over

so its a kind of chain-message

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[oblique hollow]

and of course, with chains where you cant skip, it takes a while for messages to arrive

and naturally it leads to "sloshing": things going back and forth

so for fluid to settle between, say, 3 pipes, all 3 pipes have to continously pass "packets" back and forth

until the packet size they would pass between each other is roughly the same size

so any future exchange would lead to no real exchange of fluid

if all pipes were to somehow be one big network, it would probably change things up, but its unsure how they would behave or even be implemented

[gloomy palm]

like an equilibrium

[oblique hollow]

yeah. and it takes a lot of back and forth for an equilibrium to be reached

[gloomy palm]

hmmm

[oblique hollow]

its easy to observe when you connect a full and an empty buffer

[gloomy palm]

600 cubic meters is a lot of fluid, nearly a ton

and the buffers are a lot of fluid also

[oblique hollow]

well... that depends on the fluid's density

[gloomy palm]

hmmm

what's heavier, a ton of gas or a ton of water

[oblique hollow]

600 m³ of nitrogen gas and water wont be the same

1 ton = 1 ton :)

[gloomy palm]

:3

[proven prawn]

Right because nitrogen doesnt have headlift so the calculations aren't the same.

[oblique hollow]

also because nitrogen has a different density.... IRL

[gloomy palm]

gas tries to expand to fill as much space as it can

technically releasing gas into a pipeline will gradually increase the density per pipe

the messenger pipe system seems interesting but .. :\

[oblique hollow]

except in satis, gas is treated as incompressible in pipes

[gloomy palm]

😮

[oblique hollow]

it only gets "compressed" when you package it in bottles

so gas is less prone to sloshing because it never really settles in any pipe section, it spreads out to ALL of them

[gloomy palm]

hmm

how would you have done this if you had to start over?

for liquids and gas

[oblique hollow]

you mean programming?

i would probably try to "combine" pipes into pressure groups.
Only Pumps and Machines divide them.
Flow is calculated for the entire sytem, with each pipe, beforehand, running a seperate calculation for their own needed head lift and volume.

then, the "overseeing" pressure calculation for that clustered group would dictate how each pipe should behave.

[gloomy palm]

that's actually intuitive yeah

[oblique hollow]

if a pipe receives liquid from a source, it tells that to the pressure system. then it decides how the flow should move / behave

[gloomy palm]

would that cause fluid to appear at the end of the pipe section simultaneously to the beginning pipe?

[oblique hollow]

probably not, since it still has to fill pipes and flow from segment to segment

[gloomy palm]

but the pressure would appear at the same time in the whole pipe group?

[oblique hollow]

eh... not really. it only appears in pipes that have fluids.
the first priority of the calculation would be "move fluid to the pipe with the lowest pressure"
an empty pipe has no pressure, so if they all are flat, it just moves fluids along through them all

[gloomy palm]

Ohhhh

yeah that makes sense

[frosty owl]

But that doesn't cover the cases when the pipes aren't completely full, right?
Eg: a system where some pipes are full while others are empty could make things very weird to handle for the overseeing pressure calculations

[gloomy palm]

ohh

could the game use more GPU acceleration for the fluid dynamics? or is it more CPU intensive? it doesn't really need to be super precise does it?

[oblique hollow]

a pipe that isnt full automatically has less "available" pressure to use

the game already does this in part

the pressure of a pipe depends on its volume

and the overseeing pressure calculator can take that into account. a pipe thats less full automatically becomes a target, or "sink" for some flow

so, assume the following:
a pressure system of 5 pipes. one pipe receives flow from an external source. its own pressure builds up internally, while the others dont receive anything, at first
The OPC sees this and then decides "Pipe 1, your only neighbor is pipe 2, so start directing flow there"

[gloomy palm]

what if you had a source on both ends of a pipe, would the center pipe receive double the pressure?

[oblique hollow]

in that case the pressure rises in the first and last pipe, and as flow keeps moving and pipes fill, pressure slowly rises in every pipe

[fierce ruin]

I don't think Satisfactory deals in pressure, just flow rate and head lift?

[oblique hollow]

nono, we are talking about a theoretical new way

[fierce ruin]

Ok.

[oblique hollow]

but satis actually does deal with pressure

[gloomy palm]

yeah but we are hypothesizing a new method of cheap fluid dynamics

[oblique hollow]

i think currently, pipes communicate with neighbors by sharing pressure information

"i have this much pressure, you have this much, lets exchange liquid"

[fierce ruin]

Ah, that does make some sense.

[oblique hollow]

what i was thinking about was grouping pipes into a collective "pressure group"

pipes deliver info about themself to a program they are all grouped under and that determines flow for them all

[lucid geode]

Best way to model fluid dynamics simply is using a 1d method with just volume and z-height. It's safe to assume fluids are in-compressible so pressure can be ignored. Each tick you'll just have to recalculate the volume in each pipe segment based on it's z-height and the adjacent section z-heights i.e. if one is higher than the other calculate how much volume spills to the other segment.

[oblique hollow]

the game does that, but instead of taking heights, it takes internal pipe volumes, and calculates a pipe's pressure with that

mind you pressure here does not mean head lift

those seem to be two seperate things in the game coding right now

[gloomy palm]

this is how i would have expected pipes to fill up

[oblique hollow]

easy enough for flat pipes, but pipes going up are a bit harder

[gloomy palm]

yeah cuz we dont know what mechanism is being used inside the pump to lift water

somehow it prevents backflow

[lucid geode]

That does seem like a very odd way of going about it. Surely if the pipe volume isn't full then the pressure is just 1bar? Be interesting to see what the code is for that.

[oblique hollow]

currently, theres a minimum pressure needed for a pipe to direct fluid away from itself as fast as it receives it

and thats about 1.7m head lift

[gloomy palm]

but in horizontal pipes there's no head lift?

[oblique hollow]

oh there is

1.7 m maximum

or 1.5

[gloomy palm]

is that the height of the pipe diameter?

uhh, radius 😅

[oblique hollow]

roughly

pipes are like.... 2 m wide?

[gloomy palm]

hmmm

nahhhh

[oblique hollow]

so take some away for wall thickness and boom, 1.7

[gloomy palm]

yeah

you can fit more than 2 pipes on a 4 meter platform no?

[oblique hollow]

here, demonstrated with buffers

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[oblique hollow]

all foundations are 8 m

[gloomy palm]

across one side

[oblique hollow]

yea. 8 m wide

[gloomy palm]

oh yeah

is pioneer very tall

[oblique hollow]

roughly 2 m, slightly below maybe

[gloomy palm]

wew

[oblique hollow]

so maybe 1.5 to 1.8 m

[gloomy palm]

that spans a huge portion of human heights

[oblique hollow]

somewhere in there

but it is within reasonable human heights

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[bleak coral]

when I've looked at it, your eye height is a little bit under half the height of a wall, so I'd definitely say within a few centimeters of 2m

[oblique hollow]

1.85 m xd

[bleak coral]

I wonder if anyone has asked for an official height on stream

[gloomy palm]

uhhh

you need more power the higher you need to push water

to maintain a constant fill rate

[oblique hollow]

its a solid 4 MW for anywhere between 1 and 22 m xd

for pumps

[gloomy palm]

power usage for pumps would technically only be the same if they are rated for more than double their "claimed" maximum headlift

[oblique hollow]

pumps just apply a "flag" to a pipe:
"You may fill until you are at X m height"

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[bleak coral]

remember when mk2 pumps first dropped and they were 12MW?

[gloomy palm]

😭

capillary action when?

[bleak coral]

someone made a ticket on the QA site about that fast

[oblique hollow]

we dont have pipes small enough for cappilary action lul

[gloomy palm]

the gravity is less

[oblique hollow]

gravity on massage-2(AB)b is higher than on earth

[gloomy palm]

o

[bleak coral]

it is?

[gloomy palm]

no

[oblique hollow]

11,85 or so

[gloomy palm]

o

[bleak coral]

so the pioneer is not only tall, but also really strong

[gloomy palm]

i bet her name is helga

i made a blank pipes template for future discussion lel

[bleak coral]

I do love that an engineer who actually works with pipes came on the stream once and thanked them for not making the pipes very realistic lol

[gloomy palm]

lmao

[gloomy palm]

what would you say to the idea of using UE5 fluid dynamics without rendering the actual fluid

[bleak coral]

no

[oblique hollow]

still too resource intensive. its made for open areas and lakes and for slow flow

[gloomy palm]

but isn't fluid rate predictable?

[bleak coral]

true, it might not actually be robust enough to simulate fluid physics in pipes

which is very different than open water

[oblique hollow]

5000 L / sec

besides, who knows how accurate the UE5 thing is with conserving fluid volume

[gloomy palm]

[bleak coral]

lots of game physics/simulation stuff is a bunch of smoke and mirrors to cut performance costs, cause I almost guarentee a real-life fluid simulation program isn't gonna run in real time or if it does it's probably way more taxing on the CPU than whatever is implemented in UE5

[gloomy palm]

a

[oblique hollow]

also, mind you, calculating flow in a single straight pipe is easy enough

but what about a pipe that branches 50 times

[gloomy palm]

🥺

[fringe pawn]

It'll be interesting to see if they switch to more of a 'fake' system to solve belt throughput

[bleak coral]

I just hope they don't have to do the fall-back plan of slowing everything down a bunch, at least not without changing how machine buffers work

and if they slow down pipes, I hope they also reduce the internal size of pipes so it doesn't hurt waiting for a pipe system to fill up

[oblique hollow]

that saving issue has to be fixed

[bleak coral]

yeah that's priority #1

[oblique hollow]

i literally dont care about any other pipe issue

those are all just minor incoveniences

[fringe pawn]

I do think machine internal volumes should be more than 50 in general

[gloomy palm]

doesn't UE5 have native fluidic simulations?

[oblique hollow]

the problem is that recipes who use 25m³ per cycle need at least 50 m³ else they stall