math-and-meta

[fierce ruin]

I want to do 12 lol

[upbeat tide]

Nice

[fierce ruin]

I mean not as nice as a max build

How long it take?

[upbeat tide]

Im distracted with razing my max alu factory and redoing it rn

But halfway setup for nuclear. Just need the electromag rods and encased cells and its ready

[fierce ruin]

What about processing the waste

You gonna sink it?

[upbeat tide]

Plutonium rods no sink will be used

Around 22.5 plut rods

@fierce ruin
This is dated, the old U3 setup. But will do something similar most likely in terms of design

Thats off the swamp, slightly north of the big river enteance at the north end of the swamp

[fierce ruin]

22.5 is Max right

I thought those pipes were walls at first lol

[upbeat tide]

Nah. Wall of pipes tho

[fierce ruin]

Indeed

[upbeat tide]

22.5 is max with keeping plutonium basic. Think some alts can stretch it more but not certain

At least with avoiding the fissile material alt that uses uranium ore directly

[fierce ruin]

But it's close to max right

[upbeat tide]

Think so. Going a bit on memory

Max uranium waste is 2520 a min, but if your not going to use all uranium ore for nuclear rods you have that fissle material alt option available to at least consider

[fringe pawn]

I agree with Northern ocean. Plenty of usable water and space for plutonium storage https://gyazo.com/2f9ddccf4c25a90d35d0da17f65acf39

[fierce ruin]

Yes but that's it

Don't feel like droning and training uranium across the ma0

[upbeat tide]

Your gonna need to do that anyway no matter where you park your setup

[fringe pawn]

There's a uranium node right there, see the lower right radiation bubble? I make the cells there as well, then they go to the nuclear plants.

[fierce ruin]

But it's only 300 uranium

[fringe pawn]

"only 300" - what are you building?

[fierce ruin]

12 per minute

[upbeat tide]

Me? All of em 🙂

[fringe pawn]

You need more than 78 nuclear plants? That's what 300 uranium can power.

[fierce ruin]

The production planner says I need 500

[upbeat tide]

Use the uranium cell and rod alts

If your not

[fierce ruin]

Alr am

Imma do the math manually then

[fringe pawn]

You're looking at 1-2 drone flights to get the rest of the uranium from the bamboo forest. Not a huge expenditure in the scheme of the whole supply chain.

[fierce ruin]

Would rather just build close to them

Also don't need to worry about storage

What's the better recipe for plutonium fuel rods

[fringe pawn]

Uranium is such a small component of the nuclear supply chain that I'd worry more about building close to other resources.

[fierce ruin]

Ik

That's why I chose the swamp

[bleak coral]

plutonium alts basically work by taking more resources to make more rods to make more waste

so depends on how much resources you want to add, what kind, and how much waste you want to deal with

[fringe pawn]

I would say the bay that cuts the rocky desert in half is probably the best overall location.

[fierce ruin]

My main base is in the rocky desert

[bleak coral]

exception: fertile uranium alt does the opposite by saving on nitrogen but the uranium ore makes more power as uranium rods, and you'll end up with more plutonium rods which means more resources down the line

[fringe pawn]

You probably know that spot I'm talking about then, the bay that's technically surrounded by North forest biome. Great resource density there.

[bleak coral]

fertile is kinda weird

[fringe pawn]

Fertile only makes sense if you want to simplify your supply chain and don't care about uranium efficiency.

Even then it's barely a simplification, and arguably isn't one.

[bleak coral]

maybe, it's probably worth evaluating on an individual basis even then, cause plutonium rods are more costly (rare resource-wise) than uranium rods, so depending on how you make them it might be worse to make more plutonium rods and less uranium rods

[fierce ruin]

The lake under the crater lake

Cam somebody dm me the chart for the 3-9 recipe rubber version plese

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, basically that whole area has pretty much all resources closeby. It's a great spot.

If you're already built up around there, I'd make a train over the lake and bay into the Northern ocean. I think there are those stone arches crossing the bay, but as long as you can avoid those, you've got a nice long unobstructed build area. I have a gigantic factory built over that bay.

On the other hand, exploring new parts of the world is fun!

[fierce ruin]

could also clip through them😈

[fringe pawn]

If you use the swamp uranium, you're going to be tempted to do some clipping anyway. Transporting that uranium to a useful location is a bit of a pain.

[fierce ruin]

drones

a few drones

[bleak coral]

so uh people who have messed with drones, say theoretically I wanted them to go about between 200-250m diagonally, what would that throughput look like?

[sand epoch]

for that short of a run?.. don't. just run a conveyor. waste of batteries.

drones are best at long distances

[bleak coral]

I mean.... I should but there's other belts in the way lol, and also it'd be funny, I just wanna know if it'd work, although having to make the batteries does turn me off to the idea

I forgot they need those

[sand epoch]

but if you do want to do it.. you have to loot at the trip time, not the port/port distance. as drones don't to straight..

don't do*

without trying it.. i'd guess 1 port on each end with a drone (2 total) would be more than enough for a full Mk5..

[bleak coral]

huh, so it might work, cause I need about 3.2 belts worth and I think I can fit 4 drone ports on top of here, but it's probably not worth the extra effort

[sand epoch]

probably not 😛

[fringe pawn]

Takeoff and landing are going to eat up most of the flight time

[sand epoch]

ud also want 1 port dedicated to battery supply for the hub.. assuming they won't be made on-site

[fringe pawn]

Also, what's the item stack size?

[bleak coral]

for transparency: it'd be for that steel pipe tower I posted in #screenshots

so most of it would be mostly landing time lol

[fringe pawn]

I would say you're looking at under 3 minutes round trip

[bleak coral]

move like 100m horizontal, then just dooooooown

[sand epoch]

2m tops be miy guess

[bleak coral]

it's those damn batteries, and needing aluminum, though; don't want to do aluminum just for a joke

[fringe pawn]

IIRC, takeoff/land is 51 seconds. So a short enough trip could be right around the 2m mark.

[sand epoch]

if it's not for keeping.. just scim a ISC full?

[bleak coral]

it'd be for keeps

[sand epoch]

assuming you don't have many drones (or any at all), use the old battery recipe and just make 75/m..?

[bleak coral]

I was thinking I could get away with like 10/m, or are you saying to have some extra when I do drones seriously?

[sand epoch]

extra can't hurt. and they are addictive

[bleak coral]

I mean that is a thought, I do eventually want to actually use drones for real

So setting up a real battery factory to supply stuff isn't a bad idea

[sand epoch]

i've got 680/m going.. ~1.6m in storage.. use about 400/m atm

[bleak coral]

I'll sleep on it, not doing anything tonight

[sand epoch]

does needing 90 nuclear plants to make 4 plutonium rods/m sound right?.. having never gone nuclear it seems high.. but i was running math late that night..

[pulsar idol]

90?!

[sand epoch]

to get enough waste for them..

[bleak coral]

maybe? depends on the plutonium recipes

which ones are you using

[sand epoch]

if i rem right..

plutonium fuel unit.. encased plutonium cell.. plutonium pellet.. and fertile uranium

i think.. that was what i was looking at

[bleak coral]

you can do more than 4 rods (had to go refresh myself on it), cause even without any plutonium alts it's 200 waste to 1 plutonium rod

and any alts make it less waste per rod

[sand epoch]

don't need to do more.. have ~40gw of extra power atm.. just thinking about doing it 'just' to sink 4 rods/m

[bleak coral]

oh if you have no plans to use it for power don't use any alts

just wastes more resources

[sand epoch]

was looking at alts to simplify the chain..

[bleak coral]

wouldn't you want instant then?

[sand epoch]

instant?

[bleak coral]

instant plutonium cell, skips the pellet step

although I guess it adds aluminum casing so 🤷‍♂️

[sand epoch]

right. the extra step i don't need..

[bleak coral]

also you consider making pressure cubes a simplification? (honest question, haven't looked at how many steps each take, just gut says pressure cubes are complicated)

[sand epoch]

i have easy nitro access where i'm looking at.. so cubes is easy

[topaz hedge]

hardest part of cubes is radio control units

[sand epoch]

how so?.. use radio connection unit.

[topaz hedge]

That cost.. something extra

[bleak coral]

anyway, if you use all those recipes and have 900 waste you need to make 13.5 plutonium rods and use 450 uranium ore to get rid of all the waste

[topaz hedge]

It's been a miunte since I've actually played, but rcu's ate so much aluminum it was silly

[sand epoch]

we shall see. i have a lot of alum ingots being sunk atm.. 😛

[topaz hedge]

if you're going that route, you'll probably want to burn the plutonium.

[bleak coral]

greeny solve for most weighted resource efficient shows it using over 1300 bauxite per minute fyi

[sand epoch]

will just sink the plutonium. don't need the power and don't want any waste

[topaz hedge]

then doing defaults is cheaper/less work

[bleak coral]

unless you've got spare RCU/HMF lines that are sufficient

[topaz hedge]

spare rcu's lol

[sand epoch]

i was sinking a few..

we shall see 😛

[bleak coral]

you'd need 27/min

[topaz hedge]

ow.

[bleak coral]

and 13.5 HMF/fused

what I'm looking at btw: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=jDMXH2EZRHiHXeZfo6xr

[topaz hedge]

on my pasta save, I'll admit I didn't use the most aluminum efficient recipes for some things. and after like 50 rcu/min + fused frames all my aluminum is gone.

[sand epoch]

last i checked.. i had.. ~1400/m alum ingots being sunk.. so i have some to play with.

[topaz hedge]

according to scim.. 52.75 rcu/min and 6,754 ingot production and 4,745 al comsumption /min

but it's not enough to do the 20 thermal rockets and 20 pasta a min that i wanted D:

[frigid idol]

I have a smelter factory that’s pushing out 3,120 iron ingots per minute. They’ll be sent to a factory that’s going to make Rods, Plates, and reinforced plates. Can someone help me figure out how much of each that I need to make and which recipes to use. Tag me if you respond to this

I’ll make screws in the factory too but not taking any screws out of the factory. My screw factory will be elsewhere and I’ll use the steel screw recipe

[bleak coral]

Bottom up design is a solution in search of a problem. There's no way to know how much to make of stuff until you decide on a product that will use it and how much you're making of it.

[wind spade]

screws are generally better to avoid, unless you're doing copper rotor, then it's best to make them where you make rotors

[bleak coral]

If anything just make what you need for now and set it up to be expandable in the future, so it can be flexible to your changing needs.

[frosty pawn]

add your ingots here and remove the ore, then fill in what alternate recipes you have (if any) and start adding rods, plates, etc on the prodction tab
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production

you can adjust the numbers of rods and plates etc until you find a balance that you like

[frigid idol]

Ooh ty

[frigid idol]

This look good? I’m not sure how much I need plates and rods for other recipes

[wind spade]

just build whatever you need now and don't "prepare" any items for future, unless you know exactly how much you'll need in the future

[fringe pawn]

I can't be the only one who's tried a closed loop for sulfuric acid and non-fissile uranium. Does it work for others? It leaks water very slowly for me. https://gyazo.com/c05b779506047ec14cde65c8037b64e2

[thorn bane]

you sure its not just converting all the water to sulfuric acid?

[fringe pawn]

Yes

[thorn bane]

the sulfuric acid+water number shoudlnt change but you might have more sulfuric acid than water

[fringe pawn]

To get it started, I allowed everything to fill on both sides (water and acid) except for the water outputs of the blenders. Plus there was a full 400 in the fluid buffer attached to the system. So there was a lot of spare liquid in the system.

To get to a point where the fluid buffer was basically empty and some of the machines were starved simply doesn't make sense.

[thorn bane]

hm maybe there is actually something wrong with water closed loops and i wasnt trolling with my aluminum xD

[fringe pawn]

I pumped the system full again, then removed the water extractor. Same as before, all pipes, inputs, a fluid buffer, and outputs full except the water outputs of the blenders. So both theacid side and water side of the system are totally saturated, with the only wiggle room being the collective value of the water outputs of the blenders. I'm spending some time observing the system in operation and nothing is jumping out on me.

None of the other ingredients (silica, nitric acid) were starved at all. Silica is overfed, so that will never be a problem. Nitric acid production and sulfuric acid production are actually both the same (150/min), but only sulfuric acid is suffering.

[bleak coral]

can you observe either the refineries or blenders starting/stopping? cause if either runs at under 100% efficiency the loop doesn't work

cause every time it stops it takes time to start again, thus slowing down the throughput

maybe the sulfuric acid needs a half-filled buffer to vomit into/take from without interruption?

[fringe pawn]

There's actually wiggle room in the system so that 100% efficiency isn't required during normal operation. If a backlog develops, this gives it the ability to slowly work through it, as long as it doesn't drop below 96% efficiency.

Everything is at 99% now fwiw

I could put a buffer on the acid side as well, but that feels like shooting in the dark.

[bleak coral]

I mean at this point why not?

[fierce ruin]

And if that were the problem then surely the water would back up?

[bleak coral]

oh true

[fierce ruin]

It really sounds like some kind of bug or glitch.

[fringe pawn]

It took a lot of hours to drain, so it's not a large concern. The next time it drains I'll throw in an acid buffer just for kicks, I suppose. That should at least give it tons more hours.

[bleak coral]

and maybe switch to big buffers for even more time

[thorn bane]

i had 1 place making sulfuric acid for nuclear,batteries etc. so that wasnt an issue for

[bleak coral]

not like that's a solution, but bigger band aid I guess

[thorn bane]

idk that sounds like a bad idea if it could break and cause your nucleear power to go down

[fierce ruin]

Either way, if I were in that situation I would consider adding fresh water to the system using the VIP junction to give priority to the recycled water.
Or break the loop, using fresh water for the acid and finding something non critical to use the used water for, watering down iron, copper or concrete for instance.

[bleak coral]

I guess the more sound solution is to just set it up as VIPs, with emergency excess water from an extractor

[thorn bane]

i used trains 🙂

ye i wouldnt risk it and just use the water for something else

for something else sure but restarting a nuclear plant is nooooot fun

[fringe pawn]

Ah, true. If it drains again I will make my first use of VIP! Still with big buffers. More generally, I have over 10,000 spare uranium rods and I think over 10,000 spare plutonium rods as well. So I've got good contingency plans. 😛

[fierce ruin]

@thorn baneI'm curious about your use of trains.
Don't you run the risk of the output backing up, leading to the train gradually filling up to the point that it can't take all the recycled water?

[clever orchid]

I agree with this.

However, I would mention that 99% of the entire game right now are solutions looking for problems. As long as you have >0/min production of the Space Elevator and HUB parts, and only for as long as you actually have stuff left to unlock, you have solved the remaining 1%.

Everything else is aesthetics or sandbox.

[thorn bane]

ok so this is my setup for that water
the train starts at OUT Water making the train full
at the IN stations water gets unloaded making space in the train
at the OUT stations that space gets filled again with the recycled water
And because Sulfuric Acid and Nitric Acid use more water than Non-fis.Uran and Batteries produce there will always be enough space in the train

there is theoretically a risk of all the water everywhere being full at the same time for some reason resulting in a situation that it wouldnt recover from but both sulfuric acid and nitric acid would have to be full for that which is just not happening

i have the same recycling method for sulfuric acid from encased uranium cells

you can actually save the water one by just adding 1 wet concrete or pure iron or something so then even the case where everything is full with water could be recovered from

[fierce ruin]

My thunk was that if the train runs too often it would fill up the IN stations so that it left without enough space for the recycled water so that would back up?

[thorn bane]

but the IN stations use more water/min than the OUT stations produce

[fierce ruin]

Yeah, I guess so.
Thanks for the explanation.

I guess I wasn't thinking this specific case through, just considering it as a general priority situation.

[thorn bane]

i mean ye all it does is prioritize the byproduct before the extraction by picking them up last

[fierce ruin]

<@&387163995947270144>

[upbeat tide]

Soo with my alu factory rebuild, I have decided to not use any trains for bringing product to the alu ingot factory itself.

Dont know system preformance impact, but gonna look very different with a belt highway stretching from the gold coast all the way to the east dune forest

[strong whale]

if you enclose the highway with walls performance should be better overall if you feel like that could be necessary

[safe sinew]

Why not use trains? They are really efficient and useful

[upbeat tide]

Because I am insane

No other reason

I know how to do trains, my last game had a hundred of them running around.

[safe sinew]

Ok lol

[upbeat tide]

And I have active trains in this world too 🙂 I dunno why really. Just design difference I suppose best reason

Thats an example of the beltway

This specific one was done for a reason, just did not want to deal with trains down in the blue crater, so its huffed up to the east dune forest that overlooks the crater for use/distro

[fierce ruin]

does this matter

[strong whale]

it might, but it will take a VERY long time to be noticeable, and once it does miss an item it will take another lifetime for it to happen again - or its just bugged ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[fierce ruin]

it bothers me so much even though its completel;y irrelevant

i underclocked it by 0.22% and now its close to perfect

[narrow rover]

Anyone maxed out nuclear power yet? By my calcs, you can get 50 fuel rods per min which is 625 GW of power.

And that isn’t dealing with plutonium.

[bleak coral]

50.4 uranium rods + 22.4 plutonium for 1.19TW total is the complete max power for nuclear, and maybe someone has done it? I know some people are working on it

[narrow rover]

I don’t know what you might need that much power for, other than just the bragging rights. 😂

[bleak coral]

I'm not sure you can burn that much power without excessive overclocking

even the biggest projects come in around 500-750GW

[narrow rover]

I need to build more power plants and I’m wanting to get into nuclear but not sure how far I want to take it. Currently running off 264 fuel generators. I could double this since the MK2 pipes came out and that would last me a good while.

[oblique hollow]

its not worth it to do more fuel generators at this point

[narrow rover]

Well it would be on the same 4 oil nodes.

[oblique hollow]

how many more would you add?

[narrow rover]

I could double it if I switch to mk2 pipes

[oblique hollow]

you might aswell try to set up nuclear

its the same effort at that point

[bleak coral]

my plan is basically: finish my giant HMF factory, do some basic T8 material stuff, then build nuclear with probably kickstarting it off a bunch of batteries

I've already got about 15,000MW of power, most of it turbo fuel and I can't imagine build yet another set of 100ish fuel generators

[fierce ruin]

wait before u4 you could make a pure oil node go to 600 right

[narrow rover]

Yes but I already had this plant setup using mk1 pipes

The big problem doubling the fuel gens would be sulfur. I don’t want to use too much of that right now.

[fierce ruin]

Sulfur is really not as rare as you think

Youlll be fine

[narrow rover]

Maybe so. Just not sure how much I’ll need in the future.

[frosty owl]

Can't say for the water-acid loop in particular, but my HOR-Fuel loops usually work fine
You're not trying to max pipes in any place in that setup, right?

[frosty owl]

Not that much. I say 3/4 pure nodes can be enough for even most of the hardcore players, in endgame (nuclear/batteries)

[fierce ruin]

@narrow rover

[fringe pawn]

Right, only a flow of 150

[oblique hollow]

@bleak coral

[fringe pawn]

@oblique hollow Have you witnessed this before? #math-and-meta message

[oblique hollow]

with 1 to 1 inputs?

[fringe pawn]

2 refineries, 4 blenders

[oblique hollow]

i havent yet tested something without any fresh input

i could try i guess

[fringe pawn]

It took many hours to drain, so now that I've added a 2400 additional volume worth of fluid buffers, it should last quite a while. But maybe the drain will speed up!

[oblique hollow]

running a test now

if its after hours, it must be normal error-accumulation

though i must say, i am running with non-full pipes and internal storages, and its running very smooth

reaches the same amount of fluid every time

[bleak coral]

no downtime?

[oblique hollow]

zero.

the acid reaches 13.8 m³ every time...

... and the water reaches 49.9 m³ every time

screenshots are not accurate because very fast flow

or rather: its hard to time right

i shall now leave the area and see what happens if i am far off

mind you: i have no junctions here

@fringe pawn do you have junctions?

[fringe pawn]

Yes, both sides are merge and manifold

[oblique hollow]

this should work as a test

[fierce ruin]

thats quite a bit of junctions

[oblique hollow]

indeed

thats the general amount of junctions for any sort of "big" production site

[fringe pawn]

Would fluid buffers make a difference? The original setup had one fluid buffer on the water side. Now it has 4 buffers on the water side and 2 on the acid side. Each acid refinery spits into a buffer before merging. The water output from the blenders is a bit of a mess 😛

[fierce ruin]

buffers reset the junction count right

thats it im packaging my fluids now

pipes are such a headache

[oblique hollow]

huh

whats that supposed to mean

[fierce ruin]

becuase more junctions make it harder to run pipes at full flow right

[oblique hollow]

more junctions just mean you lose more flow rate, invisibly

thats the current theory

many junctions = many error accumulations = more flow rate lost

[bleak coral]

buffers are just big pipes, they don't do anything that pipes don't do

[fierce ruin]

oh

[bleak coral]

their whole headlift thing? pipes do that too, but it's just like 1.3m so you never notice

[oblique hollow]

yep

[fringe pawn]

There's the blender outputs back into the acid refineries. Not a clean setup.

The left buffer is a dead end. The middle left is linked to the middle right on the other side. Otherwise all parts of the water side of things are visible.

[fierce ruin]

Definelty not lol

[fringe pawn]

There's where acid starts. You can't see the refineries, but each one feeds directly into one of those buffers, then the merge and go down the line to the left, into the blenders. No loops present.

[oblique hollow]

the only time (normally) when pipes are a headache is when

1. they arent filled completely
2. too many junctions are involved
   or 3) not enough pumps were used

thats it. you dont math out how to divide flow, you dont try to load balance, nothing.

you just count how much you need, fill up everything and then watch it work.
at least thats how it should be

that way of thinking works for like.... 3 machines maximum

after like 5, things already become complicated

[fringe pawn]

It was dead simple before I saw it drain, and added all the buffers.

Ah well, I can handle pumping water into the system once a week or so. Maybe less often now that there's even more extra buffer volume present.

Or I could use VIP!

[oblique hollow]

wait, i think i just found soemthing.....

i just saved and reloaded

now thers some fluid missing

not much, but a bit

i cant tell who screwed up: the machines or the pipes

[fierce ruin]

so how should i do the pipes for fuel gens

[fringe pawn]

Ha! I wonder if all my reloads from hypertube experiments accelerated the drain. I still can't get consistent performance out of 2m spaced entrances, but all the extra boosts they give are awesome when it doesn't kill you.

[frosty owl]

Interestingly, I just heard someone fixed a "maxed mk2 pipe" issue with his generators by... load balancing pipes. Eg: split in 2 from the top towards the ground until you reach the ground and have enough splits for all your machines
I'm following updates to verify/understand how that's possible

This sort of pipe balancing https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/765986766296449054/866754293285126154/Screenshot20210526-00492300000.png

600/min fuel

[fierce ruin]

are the gens overclocked

[frosty owl]

Yeah

[bleak coral]

there is that bug that was going around I haven't heard talked about in a while: missing fluids on reload

was it supposed to be fixed, or did it just kinda fade into the background?

wonder if that's what's happening to my turbofuel factory, though that's probably just too many junctions

[oblique hollow]

never any mention of a fix

alright, i started at 41 m³ in my Blender output
after 3 saves and reloads in succession:
Boom, 11m³

[fringe pawn]

Ow.

[bleak coral]

-_-

lovely, that's a fun bug

[oblique hollow]

But i have no idea who is at fault

my bet is on the junctions tho

[bleak coral]

joint effort this time

[oblique hollow]

is this something worth reporting to Uzu or someone?

[bleak coral]

probably? disappearing liquids could be causing any number of headaches, especially if it's a small enough amount to normally hide behind other faults like junctions or user error

plus it's one of those that looks fine at first, but then goes bad, which is probably the worst

[fringe pawn]

My nuclear plants just needed to be refilled on closer examination. They've apparently been slowly draining.

(they're run at 250%, each fed by a pair of 250% extractors)

And this was after I fixed all the junctions so that none are angled, based on a previous conversation here.

[bleak coral]

I wonder if I take out a fuel generator or two it'll stabalize the plant, y'know since I'd be overfeeding it then

[oblique hollow]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/607b4f0faa0ba107e32590d9
here's a nice report

there are a few ones for this it seems

2 at least

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6070db85aa0ba107e3257670
also this

im NOT sure which issue is more precies: Vanishing m³ or vanishing flow

either way, one should affect the other somehow

[bleak coral]

something is happening on reload

[oblique hollow]

in short: no matter what, your 250% nuclear power plant will starve after a few saves and reloads

not to mention that water extractors seem to do a delayed start on load

[deft lichen]

the delayed start could just be that they have to start up like if power is shut off
I could see that being a major issue if the power plants don't have that delay

[fringe pawn]

Good thing I have 500 batteries.

[oblique hollow]

not even i can pipe wizard my way around load issues

only thing you can do is absolutely overproduce

[deft lichen]

overproduce and use buffers?

[bleak coral]

I assume the buffers will be stolen from too

[fringe pawn]

I'll comment in that first thread you linked

[bleak coral]

maybe that's why we haven't talked about this that much: there isn't a solution, just gotta live with it until a fix

[oblique hollow]

@frosty owl what happens to your setups with buffers if you save and reload the same factory like 10 times in a row?
load -> look at fluid level -> save -> load, etc

[bleak coral]

also are we all modded here?

I doubt that it matters, but just due diligence y'know

[oblique hollow]

I do have a recipe mod, but it doesnt affect normal gameplay.
or shouldnt

but that doesnt seem to matter, as people reported similar

[bleak coral]

I mean there's mod bugs that are cause by SML

[oblique hollow]

on vanilla

[bleak coral]

like the hard drive disappearing one

[oblique hollow]

i thoughts the drives disappearing while scanning was base game

[bleak coral]

nope

it only happens if you have a mod activated, any mod

[fringe pawn]

I'm still on vanilla

[bleak coral]

I'm gonna fill up my turbo fuel plant again, then subject it to a bunch of saves and loads and watch what happens

also regretting having the plan for wiring be "y0l0 $wag connect it all"

cause now I'm not sure how to isolate the generators

[oblique hollow]

im now testing this on vanilla again

also can confirm VIP junction works base game lul

yeah...... it seems to be EVERYTHING thats loosing m³

i saved the game with 0 flow everywhere and full extractors

what am i greeted with upon load?

roaring extractors and pipes flowing

the save system seems to be dealing with saved flow incorrectly

funny enough, the extractors were, in fact, not starting up

they were full on running

this is by far the most easily replicated bug

[fringe pawn]

Hopefully easily fixed, too 😛

[bleak coral]

it's sat there for months, so......

those weren't exactly obscure posts, 65 upvotes is quite a bit

we just haven't been talking about it

[oblique hollow]

cause we were busy bashing junctions

[bleak coral]

I mean you don't think it's all this bug's fault do you? like it was never junctions?

[oblique hollow]

ok so, machine inventories and buffers load perfectly fine

but pipes not

oooh look at that

a 5m³ pipe consumes 12,6 m³ to fill up

isnt that hilarious

[bleak coral]

also luckily this turbo fuel factory is one of the few places I properly left isolate except for one wire, so I can do some proper testing

[oblique hollow]

i think the true issue might be that volume of pipes isnt calculated correctly?

[bleak coral]

oh that's a whole can of worms

[narrow rover]

Yeah that’s cool. I’ve see the rubber one.

[oblique hollow]

right, so, upon load, pipes consume their "phantom volume"

a 5m³ pipe thinks its around 12,6m³

so, if its full, upon loading the save, it consumes around 7,6m³

[fringe pawn]

Peculiar that it's going to some phantom zone, but also that number that it's taking is peculiar.

[oblique hollow]

so they think they are around 2.5 x their actual size

might need to test more to confirm

[bleak coral]

that would screw up all sorts of things, maybe it is still related to the junctions, is this a pipe that was turned into two pipes by a junction?

maybe it's remembering it's former volume

[frosty owl]

Urgh... Honestly, that'd be quite the pain to test for me, it'd be 20 minutes just on loading screens
I could send the file over, with a couple of handy switches to turn things on/off at leisure and the setups running already, if you feel like giving it a shot 😅
I tested them for 1 reload at most, I usually turn them off to save FPS while building

[oblique hollow]

its a pipe straight between a buffer and a machine

buffer and machine save correctly, so pipe must be at fault

[minor plover]

I think I saw something similar when I was setting up nuclear. My sulphuric acid was coming from some distance so I was packaging it remotely and belting it in. Before any of the blenders that used it were fed any uranium ore it was all full of sulphuic acid, not going anywhere. But, after each load empty canisters were coming back on the belt, meaning the packagers were emptying sulphuric acid into a system that was full and saturated when it was saved.

[bleak coral]

I guess it's probably useless to guess why without the code anyway, all we can see are external factors

could be something got commented out that shouldn't have been, or a wrong variable, or any number of things we have no way of knowing

[oblique hollow]

alright, so pipes think they are (give or take) twice their actual volume

upon loading a save, they thus consume, if full, at least their entire volume again to fill up

[frosty owl]

That is a great example 👏

[oblique hollow]

i feel like back on U3 or U3.5

when i did mainly testing

[bleak coral]

this would definitely explain why when I tested my fixed turbofuel setups (both tower and terraces), that they worked for several hours. But after coming back, and saving and reloading a bunch as I work on stuff, they're unstable again

[wind spade]

I feel like conclusion from any testing is "satisfactory is crap at being precise"

[fierce ruin]

I feel like the best solution would be a buffer right

So that when you reload it fills the pipes back up

[bleak coral]

you also have to overfeed too, or over time that buffer will just empty

[minor plover]

I'm not sure it's the pipes. When I was messing around I built a U bend of pipes against a wall, worked out what half their volume was and dumped that much water into it from a fluid buffer. Mainly to watch it slosh about and see if it was damped at all (after 2 hours it was still going strong).

However after a save and load the slosh was gone completely but I'm pretty sure the right amount of fluid was still in that U bend.

[oblique hollow]

the buffer saved and loaded correctly each time tho

on my end

[bleak coral]

I meant the buffer would empty over time as the pipes took stuff from the buffer on each load

[oblique hollow]

ok, its really only ever a constant amount between 5 and 8 m³

not x amounts the pipe volume

and ONLY in flowing systems

a full pipe that is disconnected stays full on load too

ugh.... this gets more and more complicated

[bleak coral]

Which is probably why it isn't fixed lol

[oblique hollow]

Machines stay full but Pipes connected to them don't ??????

[minor plover]

I might have a play tomorrow evening. Set up a packager unpacking water and see how many empty canisters it spits out to a container on load if it's already saturated and has a) nothing connected, b) just a pipe, c) pipe and junction, d) pipe and consumer.

I think there might be a small buffer on an machine's port (similar to the buffer in a splitter) that's separate from the sight glass or something?

[oblique hollow]

Pipes connected to Pipes? Stay full
Pipe to nothing? Stay full
Pipe to Machine? 3 loads and suddenly theres like 4m³ missing

and this SINGLE PIPE is sloshing!

normally pipes with no connections dont move

like, AT ALL

so there has to be something special about machine input ports themself

and same must apply to a buffer

[wind spade]

They took this from Factorio, there you also randomly lose 0.1 of a liquid

[oblique hollow]

i assume input buffers so that, if you dont have enough liquid, production can still continue?

but this buffer is seperated from the normal buffer of 50m³

[minor plover]

I've seen sloshing between a machine output port and a single short pipe going up at 45 and no change in the sight glass / output value on the machine panel. I can only guess there's some kind of "pipe" volume in the output port.

[oblique hollow]

something like..... 5m³

[minor plover]

I didn't think to measure it at the time!

[oblique hollow]

oooh! oh! oh oh!
i just connected 10 machines to an isolated pipe manifold.
upon load, it started sloshing

greates flow rate? 50 m³/min

which is around 10 * 5 m³ going missing

so yes, im now sure. its any sort of pipe connector (the silver-gray metalic ones specifically)

[minor plover]

So there is a buffer, and it's 5m^3, and it's contents aren't preserved in the save?

[oblique hollow]

presumably

[minor plover]

Out of curiosity do the silver ports on fluid buffers do it too? I always imagined they behaved like a fat pipe.

[oblique hollow]

testing that right now

on first look: seems not

right, im now sure, it 100% is a 5m³ buffer

after 3 reloads, the pipes now fluctuate at 150m3/min

exactly 3 x 50

and i got 10 machines

[fringe pawn]

I suspect they were supposed to have an internal volume, but because we can't click on it to see it, they meant to remove it. And didn't remove it fully.

[oblique hollow]

something something along that line

look at it! its horrendous!

this pipe network was full 3-4 saves ago!

[minor plover]

This makes a lot of sense. Liquid can slosh into/out of a machine port, yet once it's in the input/sight glass it can't slosh back out again. Two buffers, one we can observe (like a regular machine handling solid materials) and one we can't (directly) that's peculiar to liquids.

Also why the suspicion was on the junctions before; each machine input has a junction with it. More machines, more junctions.

[oblique hollow]

because it was unsure if those machine inputs influence things only during load/ save or also during gameplay

heck, until now, nobody knew / suspected they exist

its like discovering aliens or something

[fringe pawn]

Aliens hiding slomersloops and stealing our liquids

[oblique hollow]

reeeeee.

[minor plover]

Actual scientific method has occured!

[oblique hollow]

there is no doubt now

[bleak coral]

I don't think this explains the 600m³/min bug completely though, cause there are cases where looping did fix it after problems that were observed without save/reload cycles

However it does explain how systems will break down even under best practices and avoiding max flowrate

Also explains why turbo fuel plants became a shitshow after U4

Y'know when you have a couple hundred machines

[minor plover]

Also why closed-loop systems won't survive repeated save/load.

[oblique hollow]

900 fuel gens * 5m³ = 4500 m³ gone. Poof. Reduced to atoms

[calm gale]

btw this does explain how fluid buffers somehow stay full or lose fluids even know the machines needing said fluids basically idle due to not getting the fluids

[bleak coral]

the worst thing about this: it's gonna be hell to diagnose cause this simulates if someone setup their pipes wrong

having less fluid than expected cause of no loop or weird pipes or not enough pumps or whatever

[calm gale]

well i volenteer for wrongful pipe setups

[oblique hollow]

if you save and reload, the buffer will lose 5m³ upon load

[calm gale]

yea it does everytime till theres less then 2m in the container or pipes

[oblique hollow]

so with this bug, you basically have to overproduce like 5m³/min for every machine

[calm gale]

atleast

[minor plover]

It might go some way to explaining it. If you are producing 600/min and consuming 600/min all is good. But after loading your consuming 605 initially. The pipe segement is no longer full and flow is determined by the difference in pressure?

I suspect looping might work because Water Extractors can briefly exceed their stated 120/min?

[calm gale]

nope can veirfy looping doesnt work cause im making 640 per min which is enough for 53.3333 machines (using 52) but atleast 6 of them always starve and even weirder it randomizes each loading

[oblique hollow]

only if they previously back up

if they are empty, you are fugged

[calm gale]

Galleon thats the odd thing for me atleast they do manage to back up but upon reload (aka save log out time pass log in) the 6 machines starve again

[minor plover]

Do your pipes feed up into the consuming machines?

[calm gale]

same level so no headlift req

[bleak coral]

oh my god I can see the pipe indicators shrinking on each save/load cycle

[oblique hollow]

i can see them sloshing more and more on each cycle

[bleak coral]

yup this is what's fucking up my turbofuel plants, it ran clean for an hour, abused it for like 5 save/reload cycles, and previously full/close to full pipes are bone dry

[minor plover]

So your setup is like McGalleon's test above. On load up you lose 52*5 m^3 of fluid (260m3). The pipeline starts sloshing back and forth and random machines will get the benefit of the slosh until you make up that "lost" fluid. Do they eventually settle down?

[bleak coral]

reload an earlier save, and it's basically fine

[oblique hollow]

yep. its a cumulative error

[fringe pawn]

Gnarly

The moral of the story is that SF must run 24/7

[oblique hollow]

everytime you load, you lose 5 m³
if you save after you lost 5m³ and load again, you lose another 5m³

technically you can make a bootleg fluid sink by just rapidly saving and loading

[calm gale]

ok so guessing im going to use plan P from now on for any backups

[minor plover]

Are you planning to update the bug report with your discovery?

[oblique hollow]

its not mine

i just found that one

[minor plover]

Adding a comment to it then?

[oblique hollow]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/60784b5aaa0ba107e325889d
read this one again.
the bottom of this post makes the EXACT right assumptions

there, made a comment now

[minor plover]

Thank you! I hope it helps the devs if/when they try to fix it.

[fringe pawn]

I would hope that this gets significant priority, given that it significantly affects all power buildings except biomass burners.

[bleak coral]

also RIP to my stockpile of packaged turbofuel, cause it was hooked up to a packager which was hooked up to a fuel generator on standby which I had set up for testing purposes

This was half full or so, I just hadn't checked on it in forever

[frosty owl]

Just slap down 480 fluid buffers, connect them to a pipe system and you can sink an insudstrial fluid buffer's worth (2400m^3) every load

[calm gale]

so guessing all fluid stuff is bugged for now?

[frosty owl]

So these connectors would be:
-Production machines' inputs/outputs
-Extractors' outputs
-Fluid buffers inputs/outputs
-Pumps' inputs/outputs
Right?
Also, this means buffers placed along a pipe rather than at the end of one drains twice as much

[fringe pawn]

So this means that all the extra fluid buffers I added to my sulfuric acid loop are just going to result in more liquid lost per reload, though it will increase the overall time between refills.

[frosty owl]

It's still worth adding them. You're increasing the time it takes for the pile network to run dry overall (drains more each load, it still lasts more loads)

[fringe pawn]

Technically this also eats more than water. When it kills sulfuric acid, alumina solution, etc. that's also an increase in raw resource consumption.

[bleak coral]

probably better to just rip them out and add VIP with an extractor low-priority pipe for top-ups

and overproduce the sulfuric acid

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, now I'm extra glad that I made my waste disposal with extra capacity.

[fierce ruin]

What's vip stand for

[frosty owl]

But the smooth graph...

[bleak coral]

variable input priority

[fierce ruin]

Oh

[bleak coral]

which doesn't tell you anything

[fierce ruin]

No it doesbt

I'll read the pipe manual

[frosty owl]

I'll have to find a way to bring my megafactory to 100% efficiency in only a single load... One more challenge to the list

[bleak coral]

relevant image: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/553550566991724545/863818035042844722/How_to_VIP.png?width=522&height=702

[fierce ruin]

This would've been helpful when I built my temp alu setup and almost had an aneurysm since the numbers didn't add up correctly

[fringe pawn]

With the discovery of the I/O port fluid loss, this seems to incentive overclocked, low machine count setups.

[fierce ruin]

I wwsn cheating when I spawned in a isc with filled with power shards I was just adapting to a bug

[bleak coral]

don't tell greeny 😉

[fringe pawn]

Another worthwhile endeavor may be an IFB for each machine. You're increasing your overall fluid loss, but if you completely prefill it at startup, that buys you at least 100 save cycles before you hit a snag.

[calm gale]

thats when u set up a side thing for backup

[thorn bane]

wait so this is only when you save load right?

[fringe pawn]

Right

24/7 runtime is a legit solution

[thorn bane]

idk im fine with having 95% efficienty for the first 5min i plays aslong as its 100% after that

but ye this means closed loops are a nope

[fringe pawn]

I think recycling loops suffer the most from this. High building count, and you lose something besides water at multiple steps.

With non-fissile uranium and aluminum, you're working with low building counts, so you can just build some IFBs at the outset and be good for hundreds of reloads.

Fuel generators are problematic as well.

[bleak coral]

turbo fuel is the worst, cause each load is like an extra cycle for the whole system

[wind spade]

don't tell me what?

[bleak coral]

a workaround for a pipe issue would be to overclock buildings cause the issue scales to number of pipe I/O you have 😛

[fringe pawn]

TL:DR, all fluid I/O ports cause a loss of 5 m^3 to the attached fluid system for each save/load.

The madness started here: #math-and-meta message

[wind spade]

just disable autosave and keep the game running forever

[wind spade]

modern problems require modern solutions

[fringe pawn]

I have actually kept the game running while I've been out for this reason, I confess.

Also, no such thing as too many tickets for statues 😛

[wind spade]

is building inventory considered part of fluid system?

[fringe pawn]

Yes, though building inventories are properly preserved on save/load. Essentially each fluid I/O port has a capacity of 5, and when the game loads, it fills that up, but then it vanishes.

Hence my non-fissile uranium example, where the closed system went from near saturated, to near empty.

[wind spade]

ah, so the answer to my question is "no" then 😛

essentially my question was if there was empty pipe but full inventory in building, if it would remove 5m3 from the building

[fringe pawn]

The output port would remove 5 from the output liquid of the building, if I understand the situation correctly.

The input port removes it from the pipe system feeding the building

If the building outputs no liquid, its output port doesn't cause any bugged system drain. And the same with buildings that don't have any liquid inputs.

[wind spade]

trying to act surprised that there's even more inefficiency in Satisfactory, while laughing at all the people that are doing complex system because they want "100% efficiency", which is unreachable anyway

[fierce ruin]

Heavy stuff!
Glad I woke up in time to catch it.
Guess I'd better check my alu and turbo fuel setups.

[minor plover]

So I did some more fluid loss on save/load tests. Here a packager unpacking fuel is fed from a storage container of packaged fuel. The fuel generators are not connected to any power pole and are not running. In each case the system is left to saturate with fuel, then the output belt is emptied into a second storage container and disconnected, game is saved, exit to menu, and loaded. The empty containers on the packager output belt show how much fuel was lost.

1. Packager and fuel gen: 15m3 lost
2. Packager and 2x fuel gen: 20m3 lost
3. Packager, 2x fuel gen, and pump: 20m3 lost

I think it's safe to conclude that a machine input port has a hidden volume of 5m3 and an output port (at least for a packager) has a hidden volume of 10m3 - both are lost on a save/load cycle.

The other elements: pipes, junctions, pumps, and fluid buffers don't show any loss on save/load.

[fringe pawn]

Now we know that batteries are that much more important 😄

[wind spade]

*slight overproduction is important

[fringe pawn]

I'm surprised this didn't trip the breakers on more people's turbofuel setups. That's 500 m3 gone per save/load for 100 generators, more than an entire minute of production.

[wind spade]

that would only break for people that use 100% of power tho

also gens have some buffered fuel in them

as well as pipes and other buildings

[thorn bane]

that doesnt have to do with power consumption? just with how much fuel you overproduce

[fringe pawn]

Right, but the buffered fuel would slowly drain over time in a setup with no overproduction.

It seems like once you drain the buffer fuel, you'd be reliant on batteries to stop the breaker from tripping when you load.

[wind spade]

but it would also be producing at the rate the person built it, so worst case there's no buffer, but enough fuel to run the base

[thorn bane]

i mean only some would break right? not all

[wind spade]

also most people use pipe manifolds, which afaik means that most of the front gens are filled and the back ones are those that are fighting for remaining fuel

[fringe pawn]

True, you'd keep some gens online, so it would depend on your power load.

[wind spade]

hence my point - it would break only for people that use 100% (or close to 100%) of power

[thorn bane]

ye true

[wind spade]

and most people overbuild power anyway, so they are safe

[fringe pawn]

looks at tower of 500 batteries

[bleak coral]

I can confirm with it slowly draining the buffer the system gets more unstable, though it depends on how reliant the system is on being full to be stable

mine starts dropping generators, but it might be fine if the system is completely flat

by buffer I mean just stuff in the pipes

[oblique hollow]

Sorry, late Reply:
It seems to ONLY be production machines. Neither Pumps nor Valves or Buffers.

Production Machine is every Refinery, Blender, Extractor, Packager, Particle Accelerator, Fuel Gen, Nuclear Power Plant and POSSIBLY Fluid Freight Platforms (not confirmed)

Things from yesterday that still need to be verified:

1. Do Pipes calculate their volume wrong and take in more than they should?
   2)Do large junction manifolds actually lose m^3? Or do they simply affect flow
   3)Fluid Losses for all Machine Outputs in general.
2. Could the machine ports possibly also reset when disconnected from a pipe?

[minor plover]

On " Do Pipes calculate their volume wrong and take in more than they should?" I have a suspiscion they do.

When I built my test setup for 1 packager 2 fuel gens I looked at the reported pipe volumes (7.8 + 2x13.3+ 2x5 = 44.4) and figured to saturate it would need that plus 50 for the packager output and 2x50 for the fuel gen input; total 194.4. However I saw 374m3 equivalent of empty canisters come out. Even allowing for the 20m3 of mystery buffer, there's still ~150m3++ unacounted for. Or I made a mistake and had forgotten to empty cansisters out out the container from a previous test.

I'll have to repeat it this evening to be sure.

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow

Do you see any issues with this?

• Input - 600m3 water pipe
• Split into three mk1 pipes
• Valve limiting to 180 per pipe

[oblique hollow]

why 180

[upbeat tide]

Alu rebuild

[oblique hollow]

See all the above messages regarding Machine Input Buffers

if this is supposed to be 100% efficient, you might run into trouble

[thorn bane]

*for the first 5min of loading a save

[upbeat tide]

There are no buffers at all used, if I am understanding right what you meant

Im also using mk1 pipes instead of mk2 for this part, dont know if that will help

[oblique hollow]

nope, not what i mean.
TL;DR: Every Machine Input (and Output) has a hidden 5 m³ buffer. Upon saving and loading your game, that buffer is empty.
Meaning you lose 5m³ from your pipe network for every machine every time you load your save

[upbeat tide]

Oh ok. Its only connected to 3 machines per mk1 pipe so that is fairly minimal

[oblique hollow]

could still cause downtime after like 3 saves and loads

this issue is cumulative

[jagged grail]

@thorn bane

[upbeat tide]

Well, 180 water is coming in and also 420 water from scrap recycled back in.

[thorn bane]

or you know
2 freight platforms

[jagged grail]

Ew no

[oblique hollow]

for very low item numbers, a sorting system works perfectly fine

[jagged grail]

^^^^^

[thorn bane]

but
why

for belts i can kinda see it (even though its still questionable)
but for trains you dont need to draw 2 belts its still 1 line

[upbeat tide]

Hmm that makes me want to check the recycled loops. As far as I know they are working by design, but now im curious

[oblique hollow]

also true. just run it all through a row of smart splitters

[jagged grail]

Well it works with more than 2 items too. Say I want like 5 different space elevator parts and they are all being produced like 30i/m. Its a lot more efficient on power and space to use one platform than 5 different ones

[wind spade]

it indeed works, but any small issue and you're sinking tons of resources that could be otherwise processed. Also it's pretty hard to upgrade this setup since you're very limited by belts. And lastly, one extra platform is just simpler than making a complicated merging setup on one side and splitting setup with overflow on the other

[thorn bane]

also if you have multiple stations this actually doesnt work
like a train depositing in that spot but also in another cause it would unload both things

[jagged grail]

Oh wait, was the original thing about 2 different trains using the same station?

[thorn bane]

nah im just saying you cant building on top of this
cant expand, cant reuse stuff

[jagged grail]

Says you

[thorn bane]

i mean sure go ahead
but ive build like 100 of those xD

but then again its a game and honestly the most fun i have is when i screw something up and fix it

[oblique hollow]

good thing i dont plan to upgrade this

i use it for my nuclear setup

[wind spade]

basically while the setup is possible and nobody can stop you from doing that, it's very likely that you'll eventually run into some issues if you'll build this and therefore I can't recommend building mixed belt setups at all and just add one extra platform and freight car, it's almost free and easier than building overflows and stuff

[upbeat tide]

Back to the alu setup, this is the design im thinking.

First row of refineries is slop solution, back is electrode scrap

[oblique hollow]

well, its not a perfectly closed system, so perheps it will work fine

[thorn bane]

even if it doesnt and you have that bug after 5min of the refineries running at 90% the water will refill and its back to 100%

[jagged grail]

me when I have water as an output
Haha wet concrete go brrrrrrr

[thorn bane]

is there any other recipes that have a 1 to 1 recycled fluid rate?

its only non-fissile uranium right?

[upbeat tide]

It cant, there must be some external supply. Thanks though

[jagged grail]

Im not sure, but using packagers for cheesing dilute fuel early has a completely closed loop of Jerry cans

[oblique hollow]

well canisters are not affected. but the generators after them that receive unpackaged fuel possibly

[frosty owl]

So... You know how you can feed 2 assemblers for fused quickwire with 2 pure copper refineries and 1 pure caterium refinery (at 125%) right?
So you can have a setup of 3 making Cu-Ct-Cu right behind 2 assemblers
But if you wanna extend this, you'll have a criss-cross of belts if you don't go on multiple levels so....

[frosty owl]

So I belted the setup like this (convenient that it's in multiples of 60/min for input), since I could just merge the copper and caterium ore together (240 of each)
Note: SM is Smart Splitter, SP is a normal splitter.

[wind spade]

I'd suggest separating copper and caterium input

[ornate shoal]

you need buffers

[frosty owl]

You mean containers?

[frosty owl]

Would have to run an additional belt, cumbersome xD
If it works, I'll keep it

[ornate shoal]

yeah. always put buffers after smart splitters when doing stuff like that. especially if you bring in material on train. but neat setup

[frosty owl]

Thanks ahah
Though I partly agree, I think I won't need buffers thanks to the exact merge ^^

[ornate shoal]

you need to have exact merge 😋

and no overproduction. it might work

[frosty owl]

What I mean is: while a similar setup may fail when fed from other machines (eg: mixing copper ingots and cat ingots from 2 big setups to make an ingot belt for quickwire, resulting in the belt being filled in "stripes" of the same material rather than a series of "cat-cop-cat-cop") when you merge 2 identical lines (like the 2 240 lines of the example) you get a very "clean" sushi belt that can avoid buffering without too many headaches

[wind spade]

it most likely won't work, depends on how you put the resources on the initial belt

[frosty owl]

It's just a 240+240 merge from stations

[ornate shoal]

yeah it risky. but if you feed corrctly it should work.

[frosty owl]

mk2+mk2

[wind spade]

then it 100% won't work

[frosty owl]

How so?

[ornate shoal]

from stations or from miners?

[frosty owl]

From station's ISC

[ornate shoal]

no work then

[wind spade]

because the merge would be 1:1, so every odd item would be e.g. caterium and every even item would be copper ore, the first splitter splits 1:1, so all copper goes one way and all caterium other way

[ornate shoal]

it would work if you merge directly from miners

[wind spade]

it wouldn't, for the same reason as above

[ornate shoal]

oh that too maybe @greeny

[frosty owl]

Bruh, didn't think of that ahahahah

[wind spade]

just build two belts, it's super cheap and saves you tons of trouble.

[ornate shoal]

you are correct need buffers. then it will work 100%

[frosty owl]

I guess I should replace the normal splitters with programmable ones

[wind spade]

even with buffers the split is still 1:1, so it won't work

the only way you can make it work is by guaranteeing that the input belt is copper copper caterium caterium copper copper caterium caterium

which itself is almost impossible task

[frosty owl]

That is if you use normal splitters before the smart ones, right?

[wind spade]

just get another belt

[ornate shoal]

oh yeah. you need to change the splitter setup a little

[wind spade]

and don't bother with mixed belts at all

[ornate shoal]

mixed belts are fun imo. do it

[wind spade]

yeah. But even if you use smart before normal, you still need overflow option in cases that something goes wrong, so the complexity of the setup grows a lot

[wind spade]

mixed belts are fun until they aren't. They bring TONS of issues and you'll eventually rebuild it to two belts anyway after you'll come to fix the setup for 30th time in last 5 hours 🙂

[frosty owl]

Eh, easy enough to fix even in the worst case scenario (one of the two inputs disappearing)

[wind spade]

if you build two belts separately, you will NEVER have to fix it and also you'll have it built faster than this mixed belt thingy

[frosty owl]

Just need to "flush" the system (hook up sink and a splitter on the belt)

[ornate shoal]

yeah im looking at it and i actually dont see a way to make this scheme work without overlapping belts

[frosty owl]

Doubt I can build it faster. I'm already cutting away a few hundred meters of belts and really dislike the idea of having them stack there
Also, if one input disappears, the system will block in either case 🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

yeah but if the input reappears later, two separate belts will just start working, while mixed belt would need some fixing.
If it's a few hundreds of meters, why not use train?
Also, scaling this setup up would be a pain if you'd use mixed belts

[ornate shoal]

you could put the inputs in a manifold with 6 smart splitter that would be clean and reliable

[wind spade]

and limited by one belt, also not 100% reliable, there will be some overflow here and there

[ornate shoal]

then put sink in the end or loop it back to the belt

he just wants to make it look clean and minimalist

[wind spade]

yeah but with sink you end up with not 100% of product and with loopback you may end up with deadlock

[wind spade]

there are other ways to do it, like put input under foundations and bring it up via lifts

[ornate shoal]

ther shouldnt be any excess if inputs arr precise

[frosty owl]

If the input reappears it would mean I went to fix it... Something I would have to do if I notice there's an issue, which I notice if the setup stops, so I'd be checking the belts there first anyway (still, the basic idea is for input to never stop, obviously)
I'm not using train because it's a in-factory area. The belt is ~100m from station to mixer, then goes on feeding machines for a few other hundreds of meters (single line of refinery, takes space)
Scaling actually works perfectly for my setup: it's 3 rows this refineries sets, 120 total each, meaning I could at most double it to six rows if I needed to

[wind spade]

the game itself isn't precise and does random stuff, also long belts lose some efficiency

[frosty owl]

Water's already below 😆

[frosty pawn]

it's not long belts, it's long chains of many belts in series that lose efficiency

[wind spade]

I know but practically it's the same and I'm too lazy to explain in detail 🤷

[frosty pawn]

lol fair

i know a way to stitch belts together to get around the maximum belt length and make super long belts, but that too is loo long for me to explain

[frosty owl]

I made the "exact merge" just for that. Even if there WAS any I precision, I would have around 600 chances for it to mess il before the caterium refineries inventories fill up due to imprecisions (worst case scenario, assuming only caterium overflowing somehow)

[ornate shoal]

the manifold method will work and is reliable im using it myself all the time with multiple products coming from train stations and nevder had a problem

[wind spade]

even the first miss can mess it up, because suddenly you'll be getting copper caterium copper caterium instead

[frosty owl]

Oh yeah, I'm aware of that, I just really like the look and start-up mechanics of load-balance 😆

[frosty pawn]

the key to manifolds (conveyors or pipes, doesnt matter) is to give the machines time to fill up at least a little before you let them do their thing

[ornate shoal]

your output belts from splitter should never be slower thsn input belt. that would trigger overflow

[frosty owl]

Not an issue with pog splits though
So long as I don't take too long to feed one item while the other is already there, the only result would be a little pile up in machines' inventories

Note: THERE CANNOT BE more than 120 copper OR caterium/min on belt anyway, even if only 1 item reach the merge

[wind spade]

if you just built two belts instead of trying to come up with a single belt system that works, you'd have 10 of those setups already in place 😛

[frosty pawn]

regardless if the belts go to the input or the output of a machine, it's a good idea to have a little bit of extra belt speed so it doesnt get all goofy with the math

[wind spade]

but there can be less, and they will also come in batches

[frosty owl]

I don't need 10 and dislike having 2 belts there though 🤷‍♂️

[frosty owl]

I always provide that for any belt with more than a single segment (belt losses appear after the first belt-belt connection, making slow belts safe to choke input/outputs) 👍

[frosty owl]

The point of the exact merge is to NOT have batches though (unless only 1 item is coming in)

[wind spade]

I'm not sure it's possible to make such a contraption tho

[ornate shoal]

you can have exact merge of patces of product

[frosty pawn]

batches dont even matter when they reach a splitter anyway because the splitter outputs take turns regardless of timing

[ornate shoal]

there is also an option to use 1 smart splitter to separate copper and caterium and then load balance these outputs but that would look messy

would a programmable splitter behave any differently than a regular splitter if both outputs are set to both copper and caterium? would it try to balance the outputs any differently than a normal splitter?

[fierce ruin]

If I put down multiple entrances to my travel tube like I'm going to make a cannon but the last one goes in to a tube will I be going through the tube at the same speed I would be shot out of a cannon?

Also if I shoot myself out of a cannon and place a jello landing pad thing before I hit the ground will I survive?

[ornate shoal]

im no pad expert but if you manage to land on it then you should live. i think someone did it on youtube

[fierce ruin]

Even if it's still invisible?

[bleak coral]

jello pads need to be powered, so you'd have to place it and hook it up to power before you land

which would be pretty impressive through the assumed screaming

[fierce ruin]

What exactly is the power doing?

Isn't it just a jello that you fall into?

[bleak coral]

inflating the jello somehow, not sure how that works lol

[fierce ruin]

So do I just fall through the jello if it doesn't have power? Is it a block of jello mix until you power it? Is the machine there to keep the jello moist so when there isn't powered going to the machine it will evaporate down into a jello mix? How does this work?

[ornate shoal]

i think power heats it up and makes it soft probably

i actually have 500 hours in game and havent built a single jello pad

[bleak coral]

had to go remind myself, cause I've only done it once a few hundred hours (and months) ago, but it's just empty without electricity

electricity actually fills up the jelly part

the jelly just pops into existence and then pops back out when you add/remove electricity

[frosty owl]

That is my assumption, yes ^^
I did think of smart splitting then balancing, but I'd need to order the refineries differently to make it clean (eg: copper x4, caterium x4, copper x4 so I can feed 120 caterium at the center and 60 copper to each side)
How it is now though, it fits nicely with the quickwire assemblers (seen in picture)

[frosty owl]

The power is for an air compressor to inflate the jelly

[frosty owl]

@bleak coral Thoughts on this? :hehe:
Greeny made a good point that if I kept the normal splitters and fed the system a balanced belt (cat-cop-cat-cop) the splitter would end up making one belt of only copper and one of only caterium

[bleak coral]

You'd need some way to ensure that the pattern of caterium and copper is one which will actually split correctly. Cause even if it isn't cat-cop-cat-cop, I'm pretty sure it'd have to be some pattern of 6 that repeats and always splits the caterium and copper correctly.

And with the burst type nature of machines I'm not sure you can guarantee that without some sort of rebalancing contraption using smart splitters

[frosty owl]

After all these talks, I guess I should test it right away 😆

[bleak coral]

testing is good

[unkempt acorn]

And so the pipe monster begins...

[ornate shoal]

test the programmable splitter

or i'm gonna do it myself becaue i'm sort of interested now

[frosty owl]

I always test factories, but I had plans to build other stuff before testing this particular setup ahah

But those plans will be pushed off :)

[frosty owl]

Fuel generators or nuclear Powe plants? ^^

[unkempt acorn]

Fuel generators... but each pipe there needs 400 water PM...

making diluted fuel

[frosty owl]

Are you building that below the map?

[unkempt acorn]

No, the north sea where all the oil nodes are

[frosty owl]

Why are the pipes coming from above then?

[unkempt acorn]

I have multiple levels in my tower... This picture is the lowest level where all the fluids are being inputted into the sys

But my question now is... should i just pipe in all the water extractors directly into the pipes... or should i get a fluid train?

[versed violet]

Fluid train is useful if you want to move water way up instead of pumpling

[unkempt acorn]

What's the ideal train to output ratio? I've got 23 pipes needing 400pm... An individual freight can hold 1600... so should i use 8 freights?

[versed violet]

Q: is there any "recommended" layout for putting down large number of nuke plants + water extractors together? (rods will be supplied from elsewhere)

[unkempt acorn]

Yus! the best way i found was on the wiki, ill grab the image

This way takes up more space as a whole... but it saves you pumping long distances

[versed violet]

Oh, I know this one.

Just forgot to specify, my plants will run at 250% oc because I don't want to put down 60 of them xd

[unkempt acorn]

I'd just put down 60 ngl... save you a butt tone of shards.

[versed violet]

I'm willing to spend 90 of my 400 shards on saving some space

The area is limited by damage border on one side and the shore on the other, so... compact is preferred

[unkempt acorn]

so if they are running at 250% how many water extractors do they need each?

[versed violet]

600 water per nuke

They actually use a fraction more, and mk2 pipes have rounding errors, but I accept the fact they will shutdown for couple seconds every couple hours. Capacitors will hold

[ornate shoal]

i did some splitter testing myself and found something interesting

this is the normal splitter, what you would expect

[frosty owl]

I like to group the generators by multiples of 6 so I need little work to balance the rods between them

[ornate shoal]

this is programmable splitter, also what you would expect

but this is the programmable splitter with decreased input speed so it doesn't saturate the output belts

[frosty owl]

Funfact. That sort of setup ("dumb-split") can actually last many hours and save/load 😆

[frosty owl]

Seem to work as expected ^^

I'm assuming you split it for plasic-quickwire in the second screen and plastic+quickwire-plastic+quickwire in the last one

[ornate shoal]

same configuration

plastic/quickwire for both outputs

only changed the input belt to mk1 on 3rd image

[frosty owl]

Oh, that's a bit of a bummer. Will have to play with it myself

[ornate shoal]

also tried normal splitter with decreased input and it behaves the same as expected

yeah, it's a bit disapointing, but it could work if you increased your output belts speed, it won't look as smoooth though

[frosty owl]

The smooth look is a big factor in why I prefer balancing, not gonna lie :/

[ornate shoal]

this is 2:1 ratio, seems to work also

check this out 😉 added overflow from center output

nah, it doesn't work with 1:1 ratio

ok, i'm done with this now, this is my final attempt, i conclude that the splitter doesn't really work that well

[magic shadow]

why are you mixing items on belt

[ornate shoal]

because it's elegant

[versed violet]

why not use... the filters on outputs?

[ornate shoal]

we are trying to solve this problem

[frosty owl]

"The problem" has yet to be even powered yet

[wind spade]

they want to split mixed belt into two mixed belts... I told them it's hard/impossible and they didn't listen 🤷

[ornate shoal]

hey, i proved it possible on one of the screenshots

it just required faster belt for some reason

[versed violet]

mix the mixed belts in two's? Two plastic, two haywire, this way every second goes to correct belt.

[ornate shoal]

it's a bit complicated because the solution also needs to look good

[wind spade]

yeah that's why I suggested as well... but all of this is pretty much irrelevant, since two separate belts are just so much better

[fringe pawn]

The game isn't precise enough for this to work. I'd bet every autosave introduces a chance to throw it off.

[wind spade]

100%

[frosty owl]

If that's enough to fix that bug (I'm calling it bug, because no way that's how a pog splitter should behave ) I'll use it
Else, I'll have to stack one more belt and add some more splitters

[fringe pawn]

Every time I've tried mixed belts I've regretted it, and it's always something totally unforeseen that nobody thought of when the initial idea was being discussed.

[frosty owl]

I used to think the same
Then a "dumb split" (1:1 merge of 2 items, normal splitters to separate them) surprised me by running fine for over 5 loads and 10 hours xD (It didn't fail, I just stopped checking on it after that)
My guess is with that speed the system should work for the same amount of time even in the worst case scenario

[ornate shoal]

yeah, it's weird that changing the belt speed changes the behavior of the splitter so radically

this is 40 items on a 60 belt

[frosty owl]

Bruh, that sucks as*

... Is the split even overall though?

[ornate shoal]

the split is good, i just don't know how to find out if it's accidental or does the splitter actually do some work

[frosty owl]

I see "too much" plastic on one belt, but not as much quickwire

The belt on the right has 2 plastic in sequence 2 times, but quickwire is never in sequence

Ugh, I just gotta get in game

[ornate shoal]

yeah, not sure what happened there

maybe a leftover from my previous conf or setup

at the moment it looks nice on my game

i would like to have a way to have completely random input but my brain doesn't really cut it

[frosty owl]

I really like the look of the central sushi belts (the 1:1 one) but if it needs more balancing just to get the merge right, it's too much for me

[frosty owl]

All I can think of is merging some weirdly balanced belts (like 27+124 or whatever)
Or merging the output of machines with weird clocks

[ornate shoal]

i would need to build a factory for that

the setup is already complicated 😄

i guess i could find 2 ore nodes and just put down the miners there

[ornate shoal]

50 iron/40 limestone. seems like one side gets most of the limestone, and other side gets most of the iron

and when i reduced the input belt to 60/min it works like a clockwork 🙂

[frosty owl]

That's some really weird stuff

[frosty owl]

Though, if you have a belt with random stuff like this, you could just normal split it

[versed violet]

Realistic factory question: Wet feet at power poles are very bad? And what should I put them on when building a border marker on water? Its shallow (so far)

[ornate shoal]

can you not lift it out of the water?

[versed violet]

Can stack more millar piddles I guess. Just makes it look a bit sticking out

[ornate shoal]

it's good, be proud of it

i would probably put a pillar top and thin foundation on top of it

also, i would line them up

[versed violet]

Guess looks OK, but I'm more proud of big pile of nuclear waste in the background tbh

[ornate shoal]

yeah, it looks good

i sometimes build them like that but only if i need to bring conveyer belts or something like that along

[versed violet]

Looks too heavy for my purpose, trying to bring out the poles and cable (ficmass light tbd) as marker of damage border

[ornate shoal]

yeah, for just poles it's too much

[bleak coral]

It'd be kinda nice if they added long distance poles that only have 2 connections but let the wire go longer somehow

[ornate shoal]

yeah, and higher

[versed violet]

Cheeky reply - there is already a long diatnce power connection with single attachment on each end.
Its called RAILWAY

[fierce ruin]

Yeah but what if you have multiple stations on the line it creates a problem

[bleak coral]

oh they should add it with the milestone that unlocks coal, and let it be really tall and hold a couple belts (maybe let it extend belt length coming from it too)

could be a good signal to new people "hey you gotta walk a bit to do coal"

[versed violet]

I'll pull the other way here.
I would prefer that they added ability to daisy-chain factory machines (just 2 connections, like lights), which would made the power poles and wall plugs a 'long distance' connector

[ornate shoal]

daisy chaining machines would make factories so much cleaner looking

[bleak coral]

Eh, it's neat, but I like having to work poles or wall outlets into the design

[fringe pawn]

I recall a stream where Jace and Snutt mentioned they didn't want to add more daisy chaining

[versed violet]

Priorities can change & that door is already open with lights update

[ornate shoal]

i think those hanging cables look really ugly and unnatural

[keen patio]

Correct; their logic is, if people want to opt into daisy chaining, there is a mod for that.. But they believe the base game that EVERYONE has to play/start with.. should not have daisy chaining.

[versed violet]

If they want, daisy-chaining could use some other material besides cables. maybe flower petals?

[minor plover]

An update on before: I'd messed up with pipe volume and measuring by canister. After this evening's tests pipe volume seems to be more or less correct on fill up if you account for:

1. The reported volumes of the pipes
2. The "hidden" port buffers"
3. Also allow about 14 or 15m3 for the internal volume of each junction.

[oblique hollow]

So ports get emptied upon pipe disconnect too?

[minor plover]

I was using the "flush whole pipe network" handle and dragging remaining machine fluid inputs/outputs to the bin on the machine/inventory panel to reset.

[oblique hollow]

Like, i had a pipe between a full buffer and a machine. And when i disconnected and reconnected the pipe between buffer and machine port, the buffer lost more fluid than the pipe has space for

The machine buffer was full and it was on standby

[minor plover]

Ah, no, I didn't try reconnecting a pipe to a network with fluid in it.

[oblique hollow]

I suggest trying that

[minor plover]

Ok, disconnecting and reconnecting a 5m3 pipe to a machine inport port uses 14m3 of fuel each time. I can't explain that one!

And disconnecting and reconnecting a 13.3m3 pipe between two junctions uses 18m3 of fuel each time?!

[fringe pawn]

Well, I think we can safely say that volume calcs are all over the place, on top of the problem of disappearing fluids.

[minor plover]

And deleting and re-building a 39.9m3 spur pipe going just to a support uses 52.67m3 to fill each time. I can't spot any obvious logic in it at all. Other than it not being right.
Building a junction onto an existing full pipe empties the pipe and leaves two pipe segments whose volume is the same as the original pipe. But if you delete both sides and reconnect their volume is less by 2.5m3!
Is this going to be like splicing a splitter onto a belt where part of the belt is left inside?

I know the pipes are supposedly made of copper sheet, but they behave as though they're made of rubber!

[bleak coral]

mk2 do have some plastic in them

[oblique hollow]

See? I knew they were behaving odd

[frosty owl]

You align them to a grid at least vertically, starting above the water from a beach

[frosty owl]

Those are some very precise numbers 👍
Did you use a buffer to check or?

[oblique hollow]

I did back then too

5 m3 Pipe used like 12,6 m3

[minor plover]

I feed the pipe network from a packager (unpacking), do whatever I'm testing a few times, then count how many empy canisters it has dumped into a storage container and average the result. As the starting premise was basically "fluids are wonky" I didn't want to rely on reported volumes in fluid buffers.

[fringe pawn]

Has anyone tested the reliability of buffer volume? Probably just as wonky as pipes.

[oblique hollow]

Buffers save correctly for one....
I guess i could try and see what happens when a machine sips from a buffer

[fringe pawn]

If placing a couple IFBs at the output of every alumina solution and non-fissile uranium machine gives you hundreds of save/loads with a pre-fill, I think that's going to be a consideration for some. Batteries are an adequate solution for turbofuel that provide additional benefits, and anything involving water can use overproduction+VIP. I think oil processing can be left to suffer through this, as most are probably overproducing oil products anyway. Are there any other use cases that need to be considered?

[frosty owl]

Fu**ing bullshit!
(360 in, normal split)

[ornate shoal]

make the output belts also mk3

[frosty owl]

(Pog split)

Normal split in 3 (360 in this time)

[frosty owl]

Nah, imma have to go with 2 belts... Doesn't work the way I want like this :
It'd be fine if I had the 2 different refineries separated, but needing a pog splitter to substitute for all the normal splits is just too much

[ornate shoal]

i think it would work, your output belts need to be the same type as input

[frosty owl]

What about this? @ornate shoal
Should be fine
(Green is a mixed belt of 1:1 copper:caterium, orange is copper, yellow is caterium. White belts are mk2)

[frosty owl]

@wind spade Good call on the normal split of a balanced sushi belt

[proud lotus]

hey everyone! does anyone know how much Uranium Fuel Rods a Nuclear power plant consumes at MAX in the latest update to the game?

[safe sinew]

0.2

and it outputs 10 waste

so 50 waste/rods

oh wait by max do you mean 250%?

[upbeat tide]

I would advise against overclocking nuclear plants. The water need alone gets screwy.

[safe sinew]

yeah also reduces power output

[merry current]

why must cast screws be 12.5 iron/min

does anyone have a diagram for how to make that happen?

[wind spade]

happen what?

also cast screws are pretty bad, steel screws or no screws

[merry current]

i thought cast screws were the meta

maybe was thinking of steel screws

[wind spade]

nah, steel screws ftw

cast screws don't save anything except for a single building

[bleak coral]

cast screws are neat early game before steel and when you don't have a lot of alts

but later you do what greeny said

[bleak coral]

and what do mean make that happen? do you mean get the 0.5? It's not like half an ingot or anything, that's just an average rate

[merry current]

yeah i know the rate im just tryna figure out how to divide lines to hit the rate

[bleak coral]

oh you don't need to

!wikisearch manifold

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[wind spade]

you can use manifolds if you want to split into machines

[bleak coral]

though early game manifolds can be a bit slow to warm up, but I'm not sure there's a good balancer for cast screws

[merry current]

probably just gonna give up on cast screws for now or bite the bullet and take the eff hit

[bleak coral]

efficiency hit?

[wind spade]

if it's early game, you need screws for RIPs, so go for stitched plates instead to avoid screws completely

[merry current]

already used two hard drives lel

guess ill go get another

[bleak coral]

I guess, early hard drive hunting sucks, so I wouldn't kill yourself over it

[merry current]

the one im scoping out isnt too bad

just need a jump pad

[wind spade]

well you "wasted" one on cast screws 😛

[merry current]

yeah i know

i mistook it for steel screws

in terms of usefullness

[bleak coral]

it's still not bad, power matters a lot more early game than after coal

I still think it's a good early pick

[wind spade]

stitched plate is less power than cast screws + RIP 😉

[merry current]

im just having a moment rn and am really tryna get 100%

[wind spade]

so why get "good" recipe if you can get "better"

[bleak coral]

it may not be an option, the drives are random after all

and I definitely don't advocate hunting for drives until you get stuff early game

you get what you get then

[bleak coral]

it is? is that with copper wires? I usually look at it paired with iron wire

[wind spade]

while early game stuff is crafting, getting HDDs is great to save time and get stitched plates and iron wire early

[bleak coral]

it's not just that I think there's better stuff to be doing, it's mostly cause navigating the world without movement stuff like vehicles and the jetpack and good weapons sucks

like you can do some, but I wouldn't like go crazy on it

[wind spade]

well a lot of HDDs are either free or "run for it" type, which are fairly easy to do early

you can easily get ~5 drives that will give you all the early game recipes you want

also:
normal RIP - 78 MW
cast screw RIP - 67.6 MW
stitched - 53.3 MW
stitched with iron wire - 56.8 MW

so yeah, the cast screw power savings is nothing compared to stitched plate power savings

[bleak coral]

huh never thought of stitched as a power saver

I guess it is faster and uses less resources so.... huh

[wind spade]

that's one of the reasons why I "hate" cast screw so much, people look at it and think "this is great, it saves a building", without realising that stitched plate saves more buildings AND resources AND it's a recipe that'll last you longer than early game

I think it's partially because the bonus in stitched plates is "hidden", while the cast screw bonus is super obvious even if you don't do the math

[merry current]

deadass just got to a harddrive on the top of some hills only for it to need a fucking stator

[bleak coral]

huh it's even about the same as bolted + cast, if you're not using iron wire: 52.9MW

[wind spade]

yeah and bolted is like tons of extra resources isn't it?

[bleak coral]

compared to normal? nah like 120ppm iron vs 131ppm iron
iron wire + stitched brings it down to like 87ppm, but with slightly more power
stitched + copper is 50 iron + 33 copper

which the copper one is worse with weighted resources cause the calc won't choose it unless I disable the default recipe

[wind spade]

yeah but super early you don't really care about using copper for wire anyway, as you don't have any other use for copper

[bleak coral]

true

also bolted has a belt bottleneck issue, cause it needs screws too fast

[merry current]

got me another hard drive using jump pads lmao

[bleak coral]

I guess that is more fun than concrete spam lol

[merry current]

wasnt fun for my health bar

[bleak coral]

that's what healing items are for

why break a fall? just shove berries in your mouth

[merry current]

look at this, look at how hard i just got screwed

:/

[frosty pawn]

hey bolted iron plate actually isnt too bad if youre using steel screws and one of the plastic plate alts

[pulsar idol]

how many rods i need per/min for a 120 nuclear power setup?

[frosty pawn]

uranium fuel or plutonium fuel or both?

[pulsar idol]

uranium

fuel

[frosty pawn]

fuel rods take 300sec to burn so 300/60 = 5, 120/5 = 24, you need 24 fuel rods/min
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=SnND5nE7GgiDvzULEJPV

[pulsar idol]

24?

:3

[frosty pawn]

sry typed it wrong, 300 burn time divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 24 fuel rods required per minute

[gloomy palm]

i think a manufacturer at 250% can only produce 1.4 rods per minute

[frosty pawn]

300/60 = 5, 120/5 = 24

40 manufacturers to make 24 uranium fuel rods/min :S

and that's with a bunch of alts

[pulsar idol]

sheeee

[frosty pawn]

that doesnt include the water extractors

[pulsar idol]

wow

and how much power total for a 120 nuclear setup?

[frosty pawn]

wiki says "One Nuclear Power Plant produces 2,500 MW at 100% clock speed." so 300,000 MW

[pulsar idol]

oooooof

[cold snow]

you could charge up some batteries to start up everything and then hope the nuclear plants are fast enough to not let the batteries go empty for startup of everything

[frosty pawn]

or build enough to run 1 power plant and get it running and gradually expand it to full production

[pulsar idol]

well i need to find oil, alot of oil for the oil stuff

[frosty pawn]

i'm sure youre already making most of the parts required for the fuel rods anyway so yeah, you could get get a stash of fuel rods slowly automated and stored up while you build the proper fuel rod production

[pulsar idol]

the coal i can be ok with

[cold snow]

don't forget the uranium waste you will produce, you need to store that somewhere

[pulsar idol]

ah that i need to build a waste bin

[frosty pawn]

:S

[pulsar idol]

for something that big....

[gloomy palm]

or you could process it into plutonium fuel rods and sink them

[cold snow]

or that

[pulsar idol]

thats what i did to my first one

[cold snow]

or you use the plutonium fuel rods, have way too much energy and then plutonium waste

[pulsar idol]

which i cant waste that unless the devs lets us

[frosty pawn]

yeah i would sink them, 300,000MW is so much that i really doubt you could ever use it all so i dont know how you could use plutonium fuel as well

[pulsar idol]

i have alot of iron, limestone and copper nodes near soo im good on that

oil i need to probs make a train line from oil nodes to the station power

sulfur, quartz and ceterium ore i might need to use drones for it

water i have alot near by so i can use the water there

[gloomy palm]

if you have unlocked alternate recipes, it may help the resources needed

[pulsar idol]

i unlocked all recently

[gloomy palm]

bear in mind not every recipe is advantageous

[pulsar idol]

plus i need space for the water extrators for the nuclear power plants

[frosty pawn]

if youre using the link i shared, 48/min beacons can be make as one factory, then 24 AI limiters somewhere else, then 40 uranium cells, then the final stage would be to make crystal oscillators and uranium fuel cells right next to the power station

[pulsar idol]

i might do that actually

make some items into different areas and transport it into one

saves me the space i need

[frosty pawn]

and fps

[pulsar idol]

ah yeah forgot about that

[frosty owl]

You mean early game or are you implying to manifold steel screws?

[frosty pawn]

so if you split into 4 factories for the 4 different ingredients of Alternate: Uranium Fuel Unit, it looks like this:
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=8LZctTsJRGe0NgGFKPyQ
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=cHHsBVnY0ir11iL0HfC3
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=3NZCbGBAbBPbbg86UDcT
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=oDcfAVeCQilAc7SFUSsu

[frosty owl]

Imagine trying to process the fuel rods from the ores up :hehe: (quickwire factories, silica factories, electromagnetic control rods factory....)

[frosty pawn]

yeah also probably best to bring rubber for the crystal oscillators from somewhere designated as a plastic/rubber factory than try this mess in the flow chart

[pulsar idol]

hmm

[frosty pawn]

i have a factory making 60/min crystal oscillators using that Alt and it's not as horrible as it looks tbh lol

[frosty owl]

I suggest making the quickwire locally, so you can feed that 1:1 to the manifacturers (it's also the item with the biggest volume needed in that plan, so the harder to transport long distance)

[pulsar idol]

thats what i might

do like do transportation on some items

[frosty owl]

Funfact: you could deliver all the items for the nuclear rods manifacturers with a single drone (it's like a single mk4 belt worth of stuff or less)

[frosty pawn]

yeah, i bring in the copper and caterium ingots to one floor, extra copper goes next door to the refineriues making sheets, then the sheets come back to make all the AI limiters, they go down to the manufacturers below

[frosty owl]

I feed the ingots 1:1 to the assemblers from refineries

I mean, the ratios are just too good to pass up on ahahah

Just gotta change the clock of the caterium refineries

[frosty pawn]

i have 2 floors of manufacturers with all the assemblers in the middle floor because i wanted to save some space 🙂

[pulsar idol]

and bottom floor is the power plants?

[frosty pawn]

no, the power comes from the nearby oil nodes where i make the rubber

underneath is all water

[pulsar idol]

ah but where i am for it i have to transport it

im in the rocky desert part

[frosty pawn]

yeah i'm in northern forest in iin the water near the western end of the canyons so i have plenty of quarts, copper, caterium, oil, etc

[pulsar idol]

i see, but idm learning to transport via trains properly as i am still new to it

the drones i can handle easily

[frosty pawn]

oscillators was always the thing i neglected to automate so i put a special focus on it for this playthrough

[pulsar idol]

i see

[frosty pawn]

yeah normally i would make a factory that produces an abundance of plastic and rubber put it all on a train and all self powered with regular fuel

[pulsar idol]

yeah cause most of the stuff i have to make for it is far away

some stuff arent like the limestone, copper, water and limestone

[frosty pawn]

you can make a train circuit that distributes only oil products and power if that helps

[pulsar idol]

thats what im planning

make a rail system that transport the oil and some items

[frosty pawn]

train full of HOR is glorious

[pulsar idol]

and make it looped

HOR? whats that

[frosty pawn]

purple liquid gold

[pulsar idol]

ohhh that

soo HOR or oil?

[frosty owl]

@oblique hollow I tried looking into the instant scrap recipe again... But man... It's so much resources just for one less step :/
It's like 1 crude oil Vs 3/4 coal for the same scraps iirc

Plus sulfur

[pulsar idol]

like do i first use the oil to make into HOR

ah ok

[frosty owl]

You basically turn all oil into HOR

[pulsar idol]

cause i might transport it

[frosty pawn]

yes, first step always use the alt recipe to convert all the crude into HOR

then anything you do with it is automatically better

[frosty owl]

Better to transport the oil, it's less volume (also, need to transport the resin too if you make it into HOR first)

[frosty pawn]

you can just ship all the HOR and polymer somewhere else or process it on location