this is basically what I ended up doing, just one straight pipe up the middle of the tower, then let gravity feed the generators
#math-and-meta
topaz hedge
It's odd for sure.. I think this setup has been running since... december maybe? o.o it's not causing an issue yet.. I guess the easiest way would be to just shut it down and let it recharge..
bleak coral
eh I'd not poke something that's working, pipes get empty sometimes, full pipes are more stable but not strictly necessary
topaz hedge
I used to think the fluids in this game were just.. conveyors that could go both ways with a little headlift mechanic programmed in... clearly it's way more complicated than that
bleak coral
if it's already working no need to fill it
there is definitely some fluid simulation going on, not just numbers moving
topaz hedge
if it has to be shutdown after probably 800 hours of running.. I guess that's not really a big deal
Yeah, I dunno what kind of mechanics they have programmed in.. but it's definitely something fancy
bleak coral
apparently it's still not realistic, someone who does work with pipes thanked them on twitter for not making it realistic lol
so apparently in real life it's even weirder/more complicated
topaz hedge
Oh yeah no, not even close to realistic.. that would kill our pc's
it takes huge computing farms hours or days to do real fluid simulations. XD
bleak coral
just go old school: mult-million dollar fancy fluid models
like literal models: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Corps_of_Engineers_Bay_Model
topaz hedge
..Or maybe just a really powerful supercomputer, like the blue gene a few seconds. I dunno. There was someone on a pc building site that was simulating the airflow in a case he designed, and it said it took his machine about 12 hours to draw a cute little graph with a few swirls in it
damn, now that's fancy.
bleak coral
yeah it's cool, built in the 50s to test out wild engineering ideas
topaz hedge
pumping fluids up really high and letting them gravity feed does seem to work pretty well, but.. I can't really recommend it because people have issues building a wall and running pipes up it lol
What I've done is I treat pipes like factory floor/whatever, and I build them all on foundations from the extractor to wherever they're going.. and it's to have complete control of any kind of elevation changge.
bleak coral
straight pipes up is better than curved or mixed with horizontal sections though, that gets messy and breaks the pump guides so you have to manually figure out where to put pumps
topaz hedge
Yeah, I still count walls for going up lol
But what I mean is I do stuff like this for all pipes
bleak coral
trust the blue donuts! they're blueberry flavored!
loud heron
I wish we had giant bulky pipes
topaz hedge
I can't stand blueberry donuts >.>
topaz hedge
Maybe, but there's something that's kinda cool looking about a tightly packed cluster of 15 or 20 pipes lol
..That might have more to do with me running conduit for a living than anything else >.>
You have any luck on your big turbofuel setup lund?
bleak coral
Yeah that one was easier than the tower, just took out two pumps and move two others. It was already built a bit better and I had already looped in in preparation for U4
Though still have something dropping out every once in a while, might go check on it again. I also built like 128 power storages to cover my ass so I could also just ignore it 
topaz hedge
Yay. I was going to ask if you haven't sorted it out, you can send me the save and I'll have a look. no promises though
ick.. one or two fuel gens starving could be a pain to track down :/
bleak coral
Literally 90% of the problem was the pumps in the middle, and then some mistakes that didn't show up until they were running at 100% on the older setup
It's just one, and it's not 150 or 75, and I checked the tower, so it's the underclocked one in the big TF setup
I'll check the clockspeed and make sure it's accurate, that might be all that's wrong
tomorrow, I'm away from my gaming PC right now
topaz hedge
it could be, slightly overproducing tf isn't necessarly a bad idea now either. with the way pipes work, even if you produce like.. 10 more than you can burn, it'll still run at 100% at the refineries
bleak coral
I thought I had actually already rounded-down on the clockspeed so I was slightly overproducing already, but I might have done the math wrong
topaz hedge
if you're anything like me.. this isn't a good habit, but I don't keep and kind of notes on anything I've built. not proud of it lol
bleak coral
I do a decent job, it's not perfect but I do ok
I've got a couple of blueprints for the more complicated areas, and I keep the tabs on greeny's (π) calc
need to update the blue crater blueprint with the aluminum stuff
wind spade
this is a relatively unknown bug to public, but I kinda know about it. I hope this will be resolved in next big update, which aims to also solve the maximize+input bugs.
The issue is current implementation. If there are items in "maximize" and items in "items/min" request, then the tool first calculates the "items/min", then figures out what resources are left and then maximizes the remaining items. So the "items/min" use the most optimal resources for them, instead of using most optimal resources for maximizing the production of the maximized item.
topaz hedge
I've kind of noticed that items/min calculates differently from maximize.. but I don't normally throw multiple outputs into the tool either because.. my smol brain can't handle a huge bubblrific mess.
bleak coral
maximize doesn't solve for efficiency at all
only most
multiple maximize is where I see the most problems, but it's also a really weird thing to do and most people trying to do it don't really understand how to use the tool or actually what they're asking for
I most often see people do it when they want a "play the game for me" button
wind spade
yeah, I may come up with a better way eventually
I was researching maximize in steps
e.g. first maximize all items
then figure out which items can't be produced at all from remaining resources
get rid of those item from request and repeat
which would no longer find the ratioed maximum, but rather maximum for each item (while keeping the maximums as close as possible to each other)
bleak coral
so it wouldn't just set them to the same ppm? how would that handle something like iron rods/plates, where they're competing for the same resources
so there's technically infinite solutions for a maximize with those two items
wind spade
so it wouldn't just set them to the same ppm? how would that handle something li...
as I said, it'll first do the current maximize - produce as much as possible of both of them (both having the same output amount). Then figure out which one is no longer possible and try to produce the other one. In this case it probably won't produce anything extra from either, but in other cases it may.
bleak coral
oh I see, so it'll start the same as now, but then check if any can be maximized even more with the resources that are left? am I getting that right?
wind spade
yeah exactly
it'll just repeat the cycle for the resources left and items that can still be produced
bleak coral
that would help with a lot of the confusion with multiple maximize, I still think it's a bit of a weird thing to do and most people don't realize what they're doing with it, but it'll at least get rid of those cases where everything is being made 0.5ppm because of one item
wind spade
but always maximizing the remaining requested resources in the ratio (or I can get rid of ratio and just make it 1:1 by default 
)
wind spade
well currently you can choose a ratio in which you want the items to be produced
by using the sliders next to the maximize selection
so you could tell it to e.g. make twice as much plates as rods
bleak coral
And you're thinking of just getting rid of that part?
wind spade
well I'm not sure
bleak coral
I don't think most people know what that slider does anyways
fast urchin
But if you have a fixed item/min, couldn't you just add that to the production condition? Like output - input >= item/min, maximize for rest? Or have I missed something?
wind spade
But if you have a fixed item/min, couldn't you just add that to the production c...
it's slightly more complicated, since if you do maximize, you can't optimise for raw resources as you're optimising for max output
but I do have a solution for that
fast urchin
Well, that's true, but do you have to optimize for raw resources really?
In that maximization case?
wind spade
yes you do π
you can be limited by one resource only, you don't want to do unoptimal paths for the remaining resources
fast urchin
Fair enough
But even then two steps should be sufficient: 1) do that maximization with th additional condition, 2) Add the produced amount to the required items (maybe subtract 0.0001 to account for rounding issues), maximize for sink points for the remaining stuff (for simplicity maybe even with 2 variables for the normal condition and for the sink points so you don't need to have any postprocessing)
fast urchin
Because I would guess it would be a nice proxy for "used resources"? Value of unused resources = how many sink points could you make from them
You could of course also make a three-step process, where in the second step you'd optimize for the linear product of the requested output for all remaining resources and only in the third step the sink points
wind spade
I think the weighted raw resources are better optimisation target
also, what are "unused resources"?
for maximization it's obvious, but for items/min, it's usually not something useful
as people just leave the default map max values
fast urchin
(so 1) maximum minimum 2) maximum linear combination with (with requested output, the maximum minimum is added to the required items/min), 3) free resources using max sink points. Of course weighted raw can also be used, but IMHO not all resources are equally important.
wind spade
not all resources are equally important.
that's why their are weighted π
and weighted raw resources is how it's done for now π
fast urchin
I think it would also make sense for items/min. This three step process would IMHO be applicable for the combination or only items/min or max. production
Well, ok
The sink points just give a kinda "natural" weight IMHO. And natural weights are IMHO better than user specified ones if possible
wind spade
resoruce weights aren't user specified, but user will be able to change them in the future
which imo is better than sink point weights
timber citrus
Hello i need some help Turbofuel consumption rate
oblique hollow
4.5/min inside generators
timber citrus
Δ± am trying to underclock my fuel generator to 1.5/min
timber citrus
its so annoying
oblique hollow
the percentage in the bottom is wrong
wind spade
why do you need that btw?
timber citrus
Δ± am producing 600 turbofuel per minute
wind spade
underclock to 23.9741%
timber citrus
Δ± either overclock one to 6 per minute or another one to 1.5 per minute
thank you
oblique hollow
#FixGeneratorOverclocking 
wind spade
it's not broken tho π€
oblique hollow
who knew the conversion rate of polymer resin to the two polymers was so terrible
(also before anyone asks, this was edited in paint)
gusty nexus
the issue is that the conversion rates for residual rubber/plastic are not the same
iirc plastic is 60/min while rubber is 40/min
also 75/min? is that from a 250% overclocked impure node?
wait no, impure is 60 iirc
oblique hollow
250% on an impure node is 150 oil / min
this was simply to show the conversion rates
this one is worse because it uses the polymer resin alt
Top Image: 220 total for 75 Oil
Bottom: 353,84 total for 230,77 Oil
best you can do to get the most out of oil to rubber/plastic is this:
thats a 1 to 3 conversion ratio
the best i found what polymer resin recipe can do is 1 to 2.2
if you use it together with recycled rubber and plastic again
gusty nexus
yeah it has to be residual rubber, then you either do x cycles of the recycled rubber -> plastic loop, or x+1, depending on which one you want
oblique hollow
in short: polymer resin is still kinda bad
gusty nexus
i mean, you have to start your rubber/plastic factories somehow
oblique hollow
it would need to have like double the output rate to be comparable to the diluted loops
oblique hollow
i mean, you have to start your rubber/plastic factories somehow
yeah but you could literally kickstart any recycled loop setup with like 20 rubber
gusty nexus
i guess you build a starting reservoir via the basic plastic/rubber recipe until you get the useful alts?
yeah, using crude oil on the basic plastic/rubber lets you convert the HOR to the basic residual fuel recipe, so you don't need to throw in water extractors yet
then once you get all the good alts, you can really take off
glacial hemlock
The meta of oil processing is 1:3.
oblique hollow
yep. thats the conclusion i came to for the two polymers
the second best after is like 1:2.2
frosty owl
The fact that you can PRODUCE polymer resin (not as byproduct) is kinda... Meh
glacial hemlock
yeah, it is a truly bruh moment
worthy copper
Just woke up, sounds good greeny, makes sense regarding the maximization thing if the calculator attempts to fix the recipes of items/min before going to maximization, cause pushing beyond that 'maximum' forces it to start using new recipes to use more of the unused materials on the map to alleviate the capped out ones
dire ermine
How much coal per minutes does a generator need?
loud heron
I thin k 15?
sand garnet
yes
long bridge
clean nuclear plans..?
sand garnet
sink plutonium rods and stick to uranium rods
long bridge
okay but how do i do itπ
muted crypt
^he wants numbers, and what recipes to choose
long bridge
oh i need particle enrichment too dont i lol
sand garnet
yup
bleak coral
I do wonder what the most low-power way to make plut rods is. My gut says either no plutonium alts or just instant. Fertile hurts your total power, and fuel unit adds the whole pressure cube chain which I figure would hurt both resource efficiency and power.
deep root
I do wonder what the most low-power way to make plut rods is. My gut says either...
Ummm, you can check power use on the calc...
wind spade
well it's pretty hard to figure out the lowest usage tho... you'd need to check all of the possible ways
deep root
Just a few more clicks is all
bleak coral
yeah cause there's no low power solve I'd have to manually go through all the recipes at all the steps and figure which were the most power efficient
lol just a few
deep root
π
wind spade
there will be some low power solve eventually
bleak coral
I wish I could just pick the lowest MJ/item at each step, but that's deceptive because some of them take less power per item at that step but need more items total so it undoes itself
cough flexible frame cough
versed violet
The fact that you can PRODUCE polymer resin (not as byproduct) is kinda... Meh
Fabric! I use that recipe to make fabric for my gas filters!
[I now have enough gas filters for whole discord. Automating that is not recommended xd]
analog junco
anyone know how to do 1 to 5 split?
deep root
Isn't that the example on the wiki?
long bridge
fortress there is a blueprint or you can just manifold xD
analog junco
where is the blueprint?
long bridge
where is the blueprint?
,go to welcome misc, there is splitters and i believe a few basic blueprints
analog junco
that link does not work
timber citrus
Just manifold it
analog junco
idk what that is
long bridge
yeaah then just manifold idk what happened to the link
manifolding means you have one conveyor line and then put a splitter for each thing you are splitting to
i.e. 160 copper ore come in with a splitter at each of the 6 smelters
hopefully that helps
bleak coral
!wikisearch manifold
shadow prairieBOT
long bridge
yep... a visual of what i tried to say lmao
frosty owl
Fabric! I use that recipe to make fabric for my gas filters!
[I now have enough ...
Right... literally the only reason to make polymer not as a byproduct (fabric does consume quite a bit of it)
versed violet
Right... literally the only reason to make polymer not as a byproduct (fabric do...
If only there was some use for fabric 
, after you finish making your 2k gas filters. You could burn them in bioburners...
frosty owl
They burn in bioburners?!
Better than bringing around biofuel for me then! At least you can fully automate those
bleak coral
I think he's saying they should, not that they already do
oblique hollow
They burn in bioburners?!
Better than bringing around biofuel for me then! At le...
they have the efficiency of leaves tho
frosty owl
But they automate! 
@oblique hollow I just booted up my MAX URANIUM RODS setup, took a while, but reached 100% efficiency without too many issues. Fluid parts included
And I didn't see the byproduct acid back up even a little bit 
So proud <3
Yelds around 1.5~2 milion points/min just in rods sinking
oblique hollow
noice
frosty owl
The power graph was actually surprisingly smooth right from the beginning. Must be thanks to the balanced beltwork 
bleak coral
cries in having just finished warming up a aluminum scrap manifold
please CSS we don't need full stacks in the buffers
and why does scrap go to 500 anyway?
frosty owl
Cause manifolders need to suffer 
frosty owl
and why does scrap go to 500 anyway?
Tbf, there's some reasons surrounding how when you have high item/min numbers you surely have advantages by having bigger stacks too, but I'm too lazy to remember what they were and argument it now π
(Something regarding machines outputting lots of items at once and others taking in lots at once ("at once" means "each production cycle"), which can become inconvenient in some ways if the amount needed for each cycle is bigger than half the stack size)
bleak coral
That'd be solved by how I'd prefer machines buffers work: 2x - 3x the amount need for one cycle. Ignoring stack sizes completely
mystic moon
That'd be solved by how I'd prefer machines buffers work: 2x - 3x the amount nee...
2x exactly would be best I think
frosty owl
Too little imo
bleak coral
2x is theoretically enough, but with fluctuations cause stuff is made in bursts rather than in a constant stream, I'd prefer 3x to be safe
mystic moon
theoretically, 1x is enough
bleak coral
it's actually not
bleak coral
because of the way the machines work they take the items at the end of the cycle, and also need enough items for the next cycle already in the buffer at the same time
so to stop a machine from going idle, you need 2x in the buffer when the cycle ends
mystic moon
mmmm, yo're right
bleak coral
I just finished dealing with idle time bullshit getting my aluminum started up, I watched it a few time trying to figure out a plan around it lol
it's the reason I ended up seeding some starter water in the recycled water refinery for alumina solution, the idle times kept making it and one of the scrap refineries stop and never converge on 100% efficiency
frosty owl
Uranium cells actually stack with double the size needed for 1 cycle of the alt recipe for uranium rods (100 needed, 200 stack size). I think it's pretty annoying to have them back up if for whatever reason the manifacturer stops for a moment (and lags behind the blender from then onwards). When you have machines 1:1 I don't want to see items backing up between them >.<
frosty owl
it's the reason I ended up seeding some starter water in the recycled water refi...
That's why I always say to have sufficient buffering to help manifolds fill up :P
It'll eventually come in handy in so many ways (like sustaining a system before the backfeed kicks in)
bleak coral
this was a rebuild of a U3 system, so I had to tear the old one down
which means I had spare scrap, that I didn't keep...... 
"la la la oh this an intermediary I can trash this scrap"
frosty owl
....did you perhaps manifold the scrap too?
bleak coral
yeah, I wasn't gonna make a 10 splitter
frosty owl
B R U H
bleak coral
it was fine cause it filled while i built the assemblers, but then I had to fix the alumina/scrap refineries after they fell behind........
frosty owl
You gotta treat it like what it is: screws mk4
And like all screws, you make it 1:1 with the next machine xD
bleak coral
I wasn't gonna build 10 scrap refineries lol
frosty owl
||Irons screws are mk1, Copper Wire is mk2, Quickwire is mk3, Scrap is mk4||
frosty owl
I wasn't gonna build 10 scrap refineries lol
But you did and even manifolded them!
bleak coral
it's 2:10 scrap refineries:ingot smelters
frosty owl
Oc is your friend :P
bleak coral
no
frosty owl
Then pain road it is π€·ββοΈ
bleak coral
I mean I bitch, but it wasn't that bad
frosty owl
Btw, I made some #screenshots, not trying to self-promote, but I'd love it if anyone got some critics/comment to discuss
bleak coral
oh I like it, basement with a window
frosty owl
You mean the crawling space?
Also, look, somebody made some sushi belt with screws on them
fathom root
is 1200 iron ingot/min alot?
bleak coral
depends on your perspective, it's not a little but it's not humongous
fathom root
is it enough to start my mega base?
im tier 5-6 rn
just made a new save for update 4
bleak coral
I can't tell you that, only you can know what you want to make
it's all arbitrary
that's like saying "I want to build a big house and I have no plans/thoughts beyond 'big', I have some wood cause you need that to build a house, is this enough wood"
bleak coral
steel is can be most logistically convenient, it's very fast so you can just feed it straight into the next machine most of the time
best resources is steel rod > default screws, it's very slow though
cast is just good early game, it's not a late game thing
fathom root
k
frosty owl
Funfact: in all my "mega" production plants, there was enough steel to make use of steel screws, even if they're not very resource efficient :P
@fathom root
fathom root
i know
sand garnet
#looking-for-group-old is better or #off-topic-general
fathom root
iv benn using looking for group, but benn getting ignored
torpid robin
Also, look, somebody made some sushi belt with *screws* on them <:jacelul:489777...
Screw you . Nothing wrong with that
long bridge
now that i have what i need, how do i do clean nuclear, more specifically what alts will i need
quaint lantern
Time to tear it all down and start over from scratch.
frosty owl
Screw you . Nothing wrong with that
I'm all down for sushi. Just trying to trigger Lund ahahah
long bridge
how much uranium waste will i get from 3 fuel rods per minute(15 reactors) and what sort of machines/resources will i need to be able to sink that or reuse as more power?
granite jasper
Each reactor at 100% produces 10 waste per minute. So 150 Waste per minute. The setup to remove the waste is quite large.
granite jasper
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production
Add 150 Uranium Waste to the input tab. Then go to the Production Tab and hit "Plutonium Fuel Rod: Maximize". You might want to turn on all alternate recipes as well
agile crane
long bridge
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production
Add 150 Uranium Waste to the input t...
so each reactor makes 10 uranium waste per minute?
granite jasper
Says that in the last picture linked here under "Fuel Consumption"
long bridge
okay, last question do i have to make plutonium fuel rods? do i burn those? sink those? do those make waste?
wind spade
they do make waste and you can sink them, but you'll lose the power potential
bleak coral
it also makes way less waste than uranium, and it takes a lot of waste to make them
blazing yew
https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map#7;-260864;33165|gameLayer|;hardDrives does this calculator resource still have a tab to see what your production is?
fickle scaffold
Hello, how is there a formula how many extractors are needed for a certain amount of coal generators? Trying to setup 36 coal generators
honest lotus
Hello, how is there a formula how many extractors are needed for a certain amoun...
ratio of coal gens to water extractors is about 8:3
fickle scaffold
Thanks
honest lotus
so you need 4.5 extractors
wait no i'm dumb
i forgot how to calculate ratios
π
fickle scaffold
I need about 14 extractors I think
scarlet kite
I would do 4 sets of 8, would be the easiest cleanest setup. Unless you have mk3 belts and mk2 pipes...
tardy moth
I would do 4 sets of 8, would be the easiest cleanest setup. Unless you have mk3...
8*4 is 32 so he/she would need a single row of 4 too
fickle scaffold
Don't have MK2 pipes but do have MK3 belts
I have 2 pure nodes and max output I can take from them are 270/m
deep root
You can fit 3 extractors at 100% in one mk1 pipe as long as the 3rd extractor is connected in the middle of the pipe
fickle scaffold
I have it so that 3 extractors are connected to 2 pipes, each pipe fuels 4 generators
Old picture of what it used to look like
solemn oxide
hahah all yall getting caught up on aesthetics over productivity
quiet spoke
wait you don't?
solemn oxide
nah man
you would get a heart attack if you see my factory
but it all works bc i fine tuned everything below 100% with power slugs
quiet spoke
e m b r a c e t h e s p a g h e t
solemn oxide
yes sir
i am a Mindustry veteran also so u know i finna spaghet in early game
later when I have everything I am going to build a main base and then tidy everything up from the final storage container all the way to the miners
solemn oxide
but it all works bc i fine tuned everything below 100% with power slugs
actually I find this a really neat trick to optimize, what are others opinions on going sub 100% with power slug? Better off using it for power or to fine tune production to 100% Ξ·
fickle scaffold
hahah all yall getting caught up on aesthetics over productivity
Well, just getting shit organized wouldn't be bad overall
It's just easier to build symmetrically, at least for me
solemn oxide
i am a savage, it is true
lemme screenshot something for ya
see #screenshots @fickle scaffold
fickle scaffold
Yea
solemn oxide
ima do this: once i have all the resources Im going to migrate my conveyer belts
fickle scaffold
My current factory is like that since I keep telling myself that it's not my main factory yet
solemn oxide
To a new area and build a new base, and collect the resources
And then Im going to reoptimize everything line by line lmao
i just need that Miner Mk3 first as a boundary condition
fickle scaffold
That's the reason why my factory is pasta too
rancid ember
So i am finishing up a massive steel plant that makes 1620 steel ingots per min using solid steel. Any suggestions for how i should divide that up between all of the things that need steel?
solemn oxide
I finally got stacks of conveyer MK5 so when I get the Mk3 miner then I am going to migrate far and far away
fickle scaffold
Load balancer seems like the only option here
solemn oxide
Try and split the output of that factory in 3 conveyers
Meaning that you have 3 Mk5 conveyers at max capacity coming out of it
I think 3 Mk5's is enough, 2 is just not enough to fully handle the output
how many smelters are we talking?
rancid ember
Well i'm only really at reliable mk3 and thats not the problem
27 foundries
I am more asking how much steel I should use for steel beams for storage
solemn oxide
ahh emm yeah it depends
rancid ember
Most of this will be used for storage room
solemn oxide
once you can make industrial bars or aluminum then it will be obsolete
rancid ember
And like im going to use alternates like steel rotors
rancid ember
once you can make industrial bars or aluminum then it will be obsolete
Which is why its for storage room
solemn oxide
Ehm for storage I reckon a factory with 1620 ingots should be enough lol
rancid ember
Yeah
rancid ember
What im going for is to make everything I possibly can with steel alternates
And I had 4 coal nodes to use so i went full yolo
frosty owl
What im going for is to make everything I possibly can with steel alternates
You can replace the use of iron by using steel alts
Consumes a LOT of steel, but produces more items per machine, generally (steel alts be quick)
rancid ember
Yeah thats what I figured
versed violet
Performance question:
How far away do I need to place the mini factory to benefit from performance gain VS single big building?
abstract thorn
Okay so I'm transporting a ton of packaged water by train at the moment. Is it more efficient for me to have 4 stops or 2x the number of cars?
sand garnet
why package it?
trains have wagons to transport fluids directly
and well, one takes more space and power, and the other takes more space and power lol
abstract thorn
diluted packaged fuel
sand garnet
theres no real efficiency loss here for anything
abstract thorn
the diluted packaged fuel recipe requires packaged water
also means I don't need to use pumps
sand garnet
ah yeah got it
abstract thorn
so which one is better for throughput?
sand garnet
theyre the same
abstract thorn
I guess with 8 cars I could do 3 electric locomotives on each side?
sand garnet
same amount of freight stations
abstract thorn
yeah but one uses 4 stops the other uses 2 stops
sand garnet
multiple trains?
wicked tinsel
transporting packaged stuff has a demerit of having to move canisters opposite way
abstract thorn
hence my question
I have a space issue over where I'm taking it, and it needs to be packaged either way
and I wanted to avoid pumps
wicked tinsel
people generally build refinery + two packagers as combo
its the most hassle free way
abstract thorn
I have a space issue, and I wanted to avoid pumps
sand garnet
if you have a space issue, can you even fit a long trainstation
fierce ruin
and a packager
abstract thorn
I'm in the north of the map working on a massive fuel setup to get me to nuclear power. For each 600 crude oil to fuel generators using the heavy oil residue and diluted packaged fuel alt recipes it becomes a total of
47 refineries
14 water extractors
54 packagers
and 134 fuel generators.
And I have a total of 2850 crude oil. so multiply those numbers by ~4.75
I want to avoid pumps as much as possible. So I have a train station that is elevated. Packaged water is already a necessity since I'm working with diluted packaged fuel as I'm only at tiers 5/6 atm. I realize this is not the most ideal way to work with this, however, I do not want to go through the trouble of planning on where to place ~ 1300 buildings.
fierce ruin
If your doing this just to get to nuclear that sounds like over kill
abstract thorn
I would rather, instead, deal with the logistics of transporting empty canisters back. That's fine by me. So I'm trying to figure out, if I do 4 stops (drop off packaged, pick up packaged, drop off empty, pick up empty) is that faster than the loss of time with additional freight cars
I might not take it that far, but I'd rather plan for it if I follow through than not and have a huge headache
rancid ember
I might not take it that far, but I'd rather plan for it if I follow through tha...
How big are you going with nuclear? There is a difference between using 1 uranium node and using all of them
abstract thorn
I have an incredibly long term plan of full utilization of the entire map
utilizing all uranium as plutonium eventually
rancid ember
so basically all 2100 uranium
Are you planning on building all of nuclear at once or over time?
abstract thorn
I'm not sure yet
rancid ember
Because if you say build it one node at a time then you dont need that much fuel setup
Just wondering
abstract thorn
yeah, not sure at the moment.
I just don't want to have to worry about power again for awhile
rancid ember
So this fuel power won't be just to get nuclear online then
fierce ruin
building in small modules helps with troubleshooting
abstract thorn
yeah I'm only building for 600 crude oil at the moment
rancid ember
yes
abstract thorn
but if/when I wind up coming back for the other 2250 crude oil, I don't want to have a space/organization issue
rancid ember
If you are just using fuel to get nuclear online i would go with the minimum amount possible. If not, do it all
abstract thorn
I'm also not planning on rushing to nuclear
rancid ember
Then i would do it all
or actually
Here, if this helps.
Basically a 600 pipe of oil will turn into 22 gigawatts if you are only using diluted fuel and not using turbofuel
so like that 2250 oil will turn into about 80 ish gigawats
Hopefully that gives you some numbers to think about
abstract thorn
yeah that much I'm aware of :) the total setup would be around 100
rancid ember
Yeah, not to mention that you could also make a pretty decent amount of plastic and rubber
fierce ruin
imo 44GW should be enough, SFtools also gives you the power use of the basic nuclear setup
rancid ember
Yeah and if you are not looking at jumping straight into nuclear i would do at least 1800 oil into power
I think thats net around 60 gigawatts
abstract thorn
yeah
rancid ember
Something else to keep in mind is that this is around like 230 refineries to build
That is quite a bit
abstract thorn
But for now, I'm just trying to get 600 online. But I didn't account for the either additional 4 freight cars on my train meaning I would lose time or need more electric locomotives meaning more power, or I would need to do 4 stops total
yeah for the full 2850 oil, it's about 1300 buildings
rancid ember
But for now, I'm just trying to get 600 online. But I didn't account for the eit...
Something i would suggest is to build absolutely everything for power in one singular spot. Makes it so later its not completely the end of the world if power goes out. I like building on the beach so water is not a problem
abstract thorn
it was an organizational issue
I wasn't sure how to build in a way that I could have all of the water extracors and fuel generators over there. So for now it's going to be dependant on trains.
viscid shadow
how many water pumps would it be worth it to just package it and ship it up?
bleak coral
iirc it was like 200-300 meters to make it worth it with just belts
trains makes it complicated, but I think it was close enough that the conclusion was just use fluid transport
viscid shadow
so, pipes
fierce ruin
iirc it was like 200-300 meters to make it worth it with just belts
irrc that sounds right
bleak coral
sorry I wasn't clear, for trains it was solid freight vs fluid freight including the train looping empty packages
also that estimate of belts vs pipes might've been with mk1 pumps/pipes, if it was it's even worse with mk2 pumps/pipes
fierce ruin
what I got
y is 2 * 10mw for the packagers
that's not including the 10m headlift they provide
bleak coral
I don't understand this formula, could you elaborate?
bleak coral
oh I get it now
fierce ruin
odd I remember it being higher
bleak coral
yeah this doesn't look right
oh wait I had the axis flipped in my head when I was looking at this, no it does look right
cause y is MW for packagers not number of packagers, and 50MW is only 5 packagers
fierce ruin
this is for one pipe at 60m^3 oops
it depends on the flow you need to move too. For 600m3 you need 1 pump every 50m, but 20 packager (10 bottom, 10 top)
facepalm
I don't use packagers lol
20 total at 10 mw each
bleak coral
they never fixed the pipes sharing headlift if you connect them thing, even if there can't be flow between them, so for any given amount throughput you still only need one set of pumps
fierce ruin
it works for nowβ’οΈ
bleak coral
and even if you need a new set every 600m^3/min, packaging probably doesn't come out on top
fierce ruin
my point was more: you need more than 2 packagers for 600m3 (more like 20, but that also depend on what you transport iirc), and not about pump possible optimisation
assuming each packager is at 10 mw and 60m^3/min
bleak coral
they're not though, they all vary wildly
I don't think the green formula is needed at all, cost for MW at a certain height is enough information to inform specific situations, which will be highly variable
well I guess not that variable: throughput and speed of packagers and whether you use the pump cheat
fierce ruin
I could just add variables for that
bleak coral
but lol for water (which is the 3rd most efficient one) it's still 1200m
that's the one that 60m^3/min
unborn ermine
We talkin viscosity of fluids?
bleak coral
alumina solution is 120m^3/min and nitrogen gas is 240m^3/min, but that doesn't count cause it doesn't need pumps in the first place
bleak coral
We talkin viscosity of fluids?
pump power vs packaging power
fierce ruin
water packages at different rates :jacehappy:
magic shadow
had to do a double take i thought bahroth here swiped my name
normally im borketh π
bleak coral
you've had like 6 nicknames on here, none of them borketh lol
unborn ermine
I have never changed my name. Like. Ever.
fierce ruin
his name is borketh but everyone calls him floof π΅
bleak coral
I remember him as good ol' DDR4 3200Mhz π
you were excited to build that computer
magic shadow
it was A Satisfied Boi -> Satisfied Floof -> Floof | [useful stuff]
that... wasn't me
bleak coral
oops, sorry about that
bleak coral
water packages at 60/min and unpacks at 120
I'm looking at the packager chart and it looks like most of them pack/unpack at different rates, cause lol I guess 
sacred fractal
how much water can a mk4 convayerbelt carry?
wicked tinsel
480?
bleak coral
480/min, everything but nitrogen gets converted 1:1 to its packaged form
fierce ruin
yummy
bleak coral
gross
I assume that L(?) is throughput and the p/u is the speed of the packagers/unpackagers
fierce ruin
p = pack rate, u = unpackrate, L is throughput limit
10 is the mw cost of the packager
alumunia and water seem to be tied
adapted formula puts it at 900m
bleak coral
so for how many pumps you'd need so that it'd take more power than packaging/unpacking it'd be: #pumps > floor( (10 * ( (L/P) + (L/U) ) )/8 )
and then multiply that by meters for the height
bleak coral
adapted formula puts it at 900m
so not impossible, but a highly improbable scenario
fickle scaffold
Is there a way to load balance fluid? If that's a thing. I need to take output from 7 extractors and split it evenly into 3
bleak coral
like crazy sky factories
it's not a thing, junctions just open areas for fluids to flow into
fierce ruin
so for how many pumps you'd need so that it'd take more power than packaging/unp...
checks out with my math
fickle scaffold
I get that but splitting from 7 to 3, I just can't imagine how to do that
fierce ruin
mcgalleon valve circuits
bleak coral
if it's all flat it's balances itself, if there's ups and down it tends to favor filling bottom-up, but you can manipulate that with pumps and valves
fierce ruin
fierce ruin
Is there a way to load balance fluid? If that's a thing. I need to take output f...
you can set each output flow at what you want with some valve, and so split them as you want
fickle scaffold
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/jmqw9d/pipeline_infographs_fl...
Thanks
bleak coral
I get that but splitting from 7 to 3, I just can't imagine how to do that
you just don't, you just put junctions in front of machines and let the fluid flow
fickle scaffold
you just don't, you just put junctions in front of machines and let the fluid fl...
That easy? Sheesh
That's nice
bleak coral
preferably you let the pipes fill up first so that sloshing isn't a problem
you can also do the same with solids btw
!wikisearch manifold
shadow prairieBOT
fickle scaffold
MK2 pipelines would be such a relief
fierce ruin
#old-questions-and-help message for pipe manifolds
fickle scaffold
Right now I have to make 6 pipelines, each pipeline fuels 6 generators
fierce ruin
so for how many pumps you'd need so that it'd take more power than packaging/unp...
it's important to note >900m
bleak coral
pipes are theoretically easy to set up, but the fact that they just flow and don't have a set direction + have some issues at max flowrate leads to some quirks
safety tips are:
- if you can, let the pipes and machines fill up completely to lower issues with fluctuations
- keep as flat as possible, this is obviously subject to aesthetics but any up/down and pumps adds complications and troubleshooting
- if possible, loop the pipe back on itself, this can overcome the difficulties when you need max flowrate
- don't put pumps in the middle of fluid manifolds, I don't know why this fucks with it (probably something to do with them being one-way gates), but it doesn't play nice if you're raising elevation in the middle of a manifold; just take care of all pumping before putting stuff into machines not between them
fickle scaffold
I have 6 mk1 pipelines each needs just 270 water/m
fierce ruin
best guess on #4 is preventing back flow and or reseting headlift
fickle scaffold
If I have valves I'll use valves
Oh I don't have valves, they're tier 6 it looks
Anyway we'll build and see
bleak coral
you usually don't need them
I'd actually avoid them unless you have a very specific reason that you need a one way direction or to restrict flow
for example with a recycle loop where you could flood the pipes with fresh water and leave no room for waste water
not just because a machine only needs so much flow
fickle scaffold
I have 1 pump pumping 270 fluid up and from there it is distributed downwards to generators
Still organised
But looks a lot better
fickle scaffold
I have 1 pump pumping 270 fluid up and from there it is distributed downwards to...
This times 6
fierce ruin
your generators won't use more water than they need, so in the end, even without limiting the flow with valve, it will go evenly between them.
in theory
fickle scaffold
I mean I'll test that theory alright
Designing coal generators specifically is probably my favourite part of the game yet
See #screenshots
fierce ruin
it'll test your theory and your fury
fickle scaffold
I mean worth trying, rebuilding it in case of it not working is not a big deal
bleak coral
if you let the generators and pipes fill up before hand you should be fine
generators can take materials when they're off btw, different to production machines
fickle scaffold
But don't they turn on automatically once both water and coal present?
fierce ruin
not if you put it on standby
fickle scaffold
They're full to the brim with coal, I setup 5 batteries beforehand, turns out it can sustain generator kickstart for 22 hours
fierce ruin
they also need to be connected to a power line, iirc
fickle scaffold
Those including miners, not yet including extractors
worthy copper
this factory optimization for awesome points from thermal rockets/assembly director systems is really spitting out some heretical steps.
Like pure aluminum ingots.
Quartz requirements be real.
(followup investigation: sloppy alumina -> electrode scrap -> pure ingot vs normal alumina solution -> electrode scrap -> pure+normal ingot)
favors sloppy alumina in accordance with calculator, by about 9.7%
bleak coral
oh those aluminum calculations have already been done, sloppy -> electrode will always yield more aluminum ingots per bauxite than anything else but isntant (which only ties it)
the extra silica doesn't make up for the loss of scrap
and then any extra silica is always a booster
worthy copper
if you go normal alumina -> electrode -> all normal ingot (which requires extra silica input), you get 10 ingots per 9 bauxite.
Sloppy -> electrode -> pure is 1:1
but if you don't put any extra silica in you can only do 1/4 of your ingot processing via normal ingots, and have to do 3/4 as pure, which gives ~0.903 ingots per bauxite, which is worse than sloppy->electrode->pure
it takes a little more petroleum coke but that's usually not an issue
bleak coral
that's the thing, sloppy gets the same kind of boosts from silica that that normal alumina does
worthy copper
and yeah i missed that you can jam external silica in even with sloppy
bleak coral
it's fairer to compare what it looks like without any extra silica, because they both benefit from the extra silica
worthy copper
yep, which is where the 0.903 ingots (for normal) vs 1.0 ingots (for sloppy) comes in
never did i think i'd see the day id be using pure aluminum ingot in an optimized factory.
But quartz requirements for everything else do that
bleak coral
yeah the way I view it is you choose the best bauxite efficient route, then jam in as much extra silica from quartz as you can spare
worthy copper
either way, fun problem resolved, back to making my build list
bleak coral
I am curious if normal -> electrode is more quartz efficient, gonna check that real quick
worthy copper
cause this factory legit uses 3 different recipes for wire
worthy copper
yep
bleak coral
I can't imagine doing straight caterium
worthy copper
and it also uses quickwire cables???
bleak coral
not one of the many oil-based ones?
worthy copper
optimization truly makes some abominations
tbh i dunno if it uses an oil one yet
there's at least 60 orange boxes on this graph
bleak coral
you'll see those oil alts sneak in there as you approach the limits for other resources, turns out not much needs plastic/rubber by default
but it sure does a good job of stretching other resources further
worthy copper
apparently not a lot of caterium either.
bleak coral
I feel like oil, caterium, quartz, and sulfur are all in the same boat: not actually that much uses, used in a lot of alts, and a lot of alts get rid of needing them
so it becomes.... interesting where they're best used
worthy copper
this setup is certainly a lot more complicated than the 0.3.0 turbomotor+adaptive control unit result from optimizing awesome points
bleak coral
which is cool, I'm betting a lot of the complication is from balancing two items instead of one
worthy copper
i think that one only ever had 2 different recipes producing the same material at most, and didn't use anywhere near as many of the whacky ones
yeah. turbomotor and ACU didn't share a lot of resources
rockets and assembly director systems do
bleak coral
turbomotors also got weirder, the calculator does weird (but probably not unjustified) things to balance electric and pressure to max out turbomotors
you need to use both to get max, and how much each uses changes the closer you get to max, like it sticks to pressure until a point and then puts more and more to electric
worthy copper
the setup i calced out only uses turbo pressure motor because it extremely heavily favors assembly director systems
its making only 38.2 rockets/min but 268.1 systems/min
got there by just adjusting/walking along the surface between the two until i was getting less than 1.5 systems/rocket
assumption being that nothing else has enough crafting steps to be worth using even if im using more inefficient recipies
bleak coral
sound close enough, probably can't get any closer without a points solve from greeny or setting up a solver for points yourself; it'd probably take months to precisely solve for most points from raw resources by hand
worthy copper
yeah
it's a high-dimensional linear programming problem, which is ass to solve by hand but a computer program can do it quite easily (if you know how to write it)
bleak coral
it's all the alts fault
so many different paths
( I say this lovingly, it's like the most different thing about satisfactory )
worthy copper
i guess, but i think that aspect becomes degenerate once you figure out manifolding
bad ratios just mean you can't easily 1:1 or 1:x (x being some integer)
but manifold+clocking handles bad ratios so easily
versed violet
Whats faster for travelling along existing powerlines - hoverpack or zipline?
bleak coral
bad ratios just mean you can't easily 1:1 or 1:x (x being some integer)
but mani...
yeah it's not really a problem, I think he just uses it as a way to make recipes different. Apparently some players like clean ratios more than they like efficiency. So we get efficient, messy ratios that we can overcome with manifolds and/or clockspeed, and they get to spend more resources for nice ratios. Or something like that
bleak coral
Whats faster for travelling along existing powerlines - hoverpack or zipline?
without measuring it, I'd guess straight line or downhill zipline wins, but if you have to go up hoverpack wins
nocturne yew
Would someone mind checking my math on something?
I dont wanna commit to building something and it turn out to be wrong
sand garnet
tried using the online calculators to compare?
versed violet
without measuring it, I'd guess straight line or downhill zipline wins, but if y...
Horizontal.
Hoverpak looses power between poles, as I'm using max distances for transmission lines to base. Zipline, well, jumping is tricky.
Using Trains for now π
bleak coral
so the answer was C: none of the above π
versed violet
Actually, train tracks might be the solution, as they should give hoverpack a continuous power source?
[yet again, why fly if you can ride an actual train?]
bleak coral
yup, although hoverpack helps immensley with laying elevated track
worthy copper
hoverpack doesn't make you move any faster tahn regular running/sprinting
bleak coral
hoverpack actually is kinda slow on horizontal speed, not really it's purpose anyway
worthy copper
really good for climbing cliffs while placing poles though
oblique hollow
Guess this also makes satis different from Factorio: alts
fierce ruin
de-faulttorio vs 3d falttorio
bleak coral
that plus no goal like the rocket is probably why we get a lot of confused people here who ask for like a default amount of something to build, y'know the "is this enough iron ingots to make" type of questions
versed violet
that plus no goal like the rocket is probably why we get a lot of confused peopl...
You only need 1 200 000 Copper ingots for the final elevator delivery!
bleak coral
man that's a lot of copper though
oblique hollow
"is this enough"
- "For now, yes"
bleak coral
@worthy copper so is nuclear pasta not worth throwing into the mix at all? does it take too much copper?
worthy copper
im assuming it's not worth it due to copper costs
ACUs and supercomputers (or director systems) are both long-crafting chain materials so their point/raw material cost will be high as-is, while nuclear pasta uses a huge amount of copper that's only been refined a couple steps
same for thermal rockets, all the parts used in them are long-chain materials
bleak coral
I guess that makes sense, I kinda assumed nuclear pasta would steal too much copper to be worth it
torpid robin
I guess that makes sense, I kinda assumed nuclear pasta would steal too much cop...
This is how I look at it
Pretty much eats all the copper on the map
I think if you go for max sink value pasta is bad
shy mason
as well as a good chunk of power in it's assembly
worthy copper
either way im gonna need to make the 1k pasta for the space elevator step, I'll probably set that up as a side project once I have nuclear power rolling
bleak coral
oh yeah just comparing max on map, it's ~210GW & ~60/m for pasta and ~530GW but ~320/m for assembly directors
and that's not even talking about mixing or bringing thermal rockets in
definitely eats too much copper
worthy copper
or nuclear power
cause im also capping uranium fuel rods and then refining/sinking the plutonium rods
cedar mica
If you try to max out the map, you end up with around 40/m of all the 4 final space elevator parts. Including enough to make 1TW (or 500GW if you sink plutonium)
torpid robin
Yea I got to like 40 as you say but I think iirc you can also get 60 of every other part as well You then run outta coal and copper . But that was before the rebalance of nuclear . So not sure what it works out to now cause that was with 600 gw of power
frosty owl
How do you guys like these numbers? (Plutonium recipes for the lowest sulfur-bauxite intake)
||Honorable mentions: @bleak coral @worthy copper @torpid robin @cedar mica ||
fierce ruin
is that for max nuclear and points?
frosty owl
Yeah. I tried to push for most Assembly parts other than the MFG, that got the lowest priority in the plan
torpid robin
Too much pasta
But in saying that those numbers arenβt actually that bad ae
Can you get more rockets ? That is highest point value right. Iirc
frosty owl
1812 steel beams for screws. Fair enough
frosty owl
Can you get more rockets ? That is highest point value right. Iirc
You can change pasta and rockets at almost 1:1 ratio ^^
At 30 pasta it's 69 rockets instead of 70 though
torpid robin
It was meant to be
frosty owl
Bruh, with 50-50 it WANTS to use some electrode circuit boards (rubber+coke) as there is neither enough quartz, caterium OR copper leftover to make anymore with any of the other 3 recipees π€¦ββοΈ
Which means no plastic for coated plates :\
frosty owl
Can you get more rockets ? That is highest point value right. Iirc
Correction: you can get more rockets at the cost of pasta and MFG (1 of each for each TPR pretty much)
Trying to push for points even further...
That's a grand total of 135'055'880 points/min (excluding the nuclear rods of course) with still 3800 sulfur, 10k iron, 22k limestone and TONS of water leftover... not really that much actually, sulfur aside
deep root
But isn't sloppy -> electrode the better bauxite usage?
bleak coral
What was the old max points per minute just using turbomotors? Curious if that goal has been passed
bleak coral
But isn't sloppy -> electrode the better bauxite usage?
instant and sloppy -> electrode have the same bauxite efficiency
fierce ruin
But isn't sloppy -> electrode the better bauxite usage?
it wieghts quartz close to bauxite
deep root
instant and sloppy -> electrode have the same bauxite efficiency
I just noticed that
bleak coral
I believe max aluminum actually uses both so it can use both coal and oil
deep root
Yeah...Not sure if it's worth it π
bleak coral
there's not actually much to use sulfur on, and what does use it doesn't need much
deep root
But my drones!
bleak coral
so there's a bit lying around, you wouldn't want to use it for all your aluminum, but there's enough to do it some
frosty owl
Nevermind, I'm spouting nonsense: instant has the same ratio from bauxite to scrap of the sloppy route!
deep root
Yeah
bleak coral
I mean you're technically still right, tied for 1st place is still 1st place
both have the best bauxite conversion
frosty owl
I was quite surprised there'd be more than HALF the sulfur aviable after such a massive plan though... only the MFG really use it
bleak coral
yeah they really listened when we asked for the nuclear resources to be reduced
it's a lot, but leaves plenty to play with
frosty owl
Funfact: it's worth to make tons of pressure conversion cubes. Out of the 80 TM needed for the plan above, 50 come from Pressure Motor recipes (they can also easily boost pasta or plutonium chains)
Nitrogen needs to be handled with extra care as it's terribly easy to finish it
worthy copper
How do you guys like these numbers? (Plutonium recipes for the lowest sulfur-bau...
If you're chasing just awesome points i think you want purely rockets+director systems, pasta uses singularly copper which can be crafted a lot of times in other recipes for those two, while in pasta it gets only 3 steps (ingot->powder->pasta)
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=7mQoEBOT97QcflJusFMY this is the final setup i settled on
frosty owl
If you're chasing just awesome points i think you want purely rockets+director s...
No, the plan I linked is mainly to fill up the elevator fast xD
This one is more for points #math-and-meta message
worthy copper
i think you still run 0 pasta for points. I'm gonna slow roll my own elevator though cause uhh... I'm gonna finish that long before i finish even getting basic node processing on everything lol
frosty owl
Sure, if you want ONLY points and not even materials for storage, pasta and MFG are useless π€·ββοΈ
wind spade
just out of curiosity, seeing how many setups you post over time... how many tabs are in your tool? π
I haven't tested how it will behave if there are more tabs than can fit on a single screen width π
shy mason
at 11 tabs now, still doing fine at 1/3rd the screen width
frosty owl
I don't have that many I clean them up or it clogs my browser even more xD
torpid robin
when i try work things out. i put all my hub resources in as well. cause you gotta start somewhere. and you still need resources coming in to build . unless you are using creative. i feel it gives it a more realistic goal
oblique hollow
@fallow vector i did some analysis and pretty much anything ingame can be an Immediate Product of Fluids or Produced With a direct Product thereof
oblique hollow
the only things that cant be made..... are tier 8 elevator parts and nuclear path
fallow vector
<@!685814184792817674> i did some analysis and pretty much anything ingame can b...
wet explosives black powder ?
frosty owl
when i try work things out. i put all my hub resources in as well. cause you got...
Same :)
(BTW, all the plans I shared so far leave some wiggle room for that, that's why there are no decimals in the production goals!)
stiff phoenix
I feel sad that I was bored enough to do math... Well, hope it helps anyway.
oblique hollow
why did you math it out xd.... theres already recorded data on clockspeeed for generators
fierce ruin
pulls out desmos
fickle scaffold
Does liquid manifold works the same in terms of spinup time?
fierce ruin
liquid manifolds are finnicky and sometimes need loops
deep root
Does liquid manifold works the same in terms of spinup time?
Yes. It's also a good idea to loop those manifolds
fickle scaffold
I see, will do, or at least try to
fierce ruin
fickle scaffold
Will be hard to loop
oblique hollow
Will be hard to loop
Just connect those first two junction?
fierce ruin
the man the myth the legend
fierce ruin
Will do, if it works
it won't work if you don't do
oblique hollow
Thats rather safe
fickle scaffold
Which consume exactly 270/s
worthy copper
mfw a pure copper ingot refinery can 1:1 into a fused quickwire assembler (37.5/min out/in)
the machine dimensions even line up
oblique hollow
Steamed copper sheet refinery exactly matches heat sink recipe and lines up with the assemblers too 
muted crypt
I still stand by the diluted packaged fuel loop being the best ratio lineup
the only thing it has going for it now, due to diluted fuel in the blender being the chad version of the recipe
@oblique hollow I am at work today. Do you know how I plan to use my time?
Analyzing resource efficiency of every single possible combination of recipes
because I am a clown
glacial hemlock
Well, you don't have to do it manually anymore. We are slowly adding alternate recipe analysis for individual item pages
oblique hollow
Analyzing resource efficiency of every single possible combination of recipes
You clown! Only i am allowed to do such clownery
muted crypt
but instead of spreadsheets I'm doing score analysis
muted crypt
through like
oblique hollow
I could assign scores there too
fierce ruin
well we'd also need to account for the cost too
that means the wieghts would change too
PAIN
muted crypt
obviously this is just a very basic system I've set up so far, and it takes into account only the materials it uses for now, buuuuut
lower score = better
python indeed lol
fierce ruin
whatever floats your boat
muted crypt
it's easy enough for python, so if someone wanted to look at my code it's basically like handing them pseudocode
fierce ruin
I don't code
muted crypt
print("\nUsing diluted fuel and heavy oil residue alts for all recipes:")
print(f"Normal turbofuel: {((0.45 / 11700) + (0.8 / 30900) + (0.8 / 6840)) / 0.000003}")
print(f"Turbo heavy fuel: {((0.938 / 11700) + (1 / 30900) + (1 / 6840)) / 0.000003}")
print(f"Turbo blend fuel: {((0.75 / 11700) + (0 / 30900) + (0.5 / 6840)) / 0.000003}")
okay but if I handed you this, you'd probably understand
it's just text and math, I'm confident you can do that
obviously the code will eventually be more complex than this, but still
fierce ruin
those #s are wack
muted crypt
it's a work in progress lol
the decimal at the end has the sole purpose of forcing it into a value between 1 and 100
in actuality the value is 0.000001 * [number of resources tapped into per unit of product]
fierce ruin
odd way to wieght it
muted crypt
again, just forcing it to a value between 1 and 100
I may have to adjust, depends on if there are parts that use everything.. see how those turn out
fierce ruin
I don't see the value of it being constrained like that
oblique hollow
You could do exponential functions
fierce ruin
shooting stats!
fierce ruin
buyt why would you divide by a small # when you can * by a large #
oblique hollow
Same thing really
fierce ruin
in precision too?
muted crypt
so I could just use the logistic function for this?
or to simplify it, 1 / (1 + e^-x)
fierce ruin
does that hold up at the extremes tho, since it levels out
muted crypt
it would look like this.... why is it transparent
the one time I don't want an image to be transparent, it is
fierce ruin
but as you approach the limit do comparisons hold up?
fierce ruin
the one time I *don't* want an image to be transparent, it is
you need to be more transparent
muted crypt
~~you need to be more transparent~~
opacity is the name of the game
fierce ruin
I don't see what you gain by constraining it?
rapid condor
what clock speed do i need to get 2.5 uranium waste in a power plant
shadow prairieBOT
muted crypt
I don't see what you gain by constraining it?
I mean I don't have to constrain it or anything. I could definitely choose not to..
I'm debating how to actually implement water
because it isn't exactly limited
muted crypt
in actuality the value is `0.000001 * [number of resources tapped into per unit ...
if I used a formula like this, would water just account for 0 for the numerator (when summing up amount of resources per unit of product) but one additional resource tapped for the denominator
because then that pushes things to
Using diluted fuel and heavy oil residue alts for all recipes:
Normal turbofuel: 45.32764260664107
Turbo heavy fuel: 86.24407670907415
Turbo blend fuel: 45.73399310241415
...buut wait
π€ because the lower numbers are better but we don't necessarily want the increased resource count to make the score better
because I am dumbβ’οΈ one sec
Using diluted fuel and heavy oil residue alts for all recipes:
Normal turbofuel: 22.663821303320535
Turbo heavy fuel: 28.748025569691386
Turbo blend fuel: 15.244664367471385
so that's a bit better.
stiff phoenix
why did you math it out xd.... theres already recorded data on clockspeeed for g...
π€·ββοΈ Couldn't find the numbers I needed without doing math. I'm sure I didn't look hard enough really but too late now.
muted crypt
denominator is now 0.000001 * (12 - [number of resources tapped]), where the 12 is picked from there being 12 different resources
fierce ruin
"denominator" shows multiplication
oblique hollow
the one time I *don't* want an image to be transparent, it is
You can choose a very low number for the exponent to make it less steep
And more linear
muted crypt
"denominator" shows multiplication <:hehe:382483156542029825>
Normal turbofuel: {((0.45 / 11700) + (0.8 / 30900) + (0.8 / 6840)) / (0.000001 * (12 - 4))}
water isn't being taken into account for the numerator, but it is for the denominator.
water is effectively limitless for our purposes (unless someone for some reason wanted a max water factory π€) hence its lack of weight for the numerator
muted crypt
but it's still a needed resource, hence being relevant to the denominator
fierce ruin
but you do need to calculate it's power cost eventually
since power is low cost resources
muted crypt
in the system I planned to use, it was going to be different scores for a few things
setup complexity (subjective, unfortunately), power consumption (also somewhat subjective because different forms of power?), and resource efficiency
fierce ruin
weighted cost per mw?
then convert mw used to wieghted cost and add
you're implemention looks to be the inverse of greeny's wieghts
deep root
Give it a slider. The user can define what weight they want to apply to it.
deep root
Right
Not a literal slider of course... Not sure how difficult it would be to make something like that
muted crypt
"how much do you give a shit on a scale of 0 to 1"
fierce ruin
"how much do you give a shit on a logistical scale of 0 to 1"
that's quantum computer territory tho...
@muted crypt greeny's weights
muted crypt
how did these come to be
fierce ruin
resource amount/total resource amount
deep root
Amount if x resource divided by y total...
fierce ruin
that way he can calculate cost
muted crypt
resource amount/total resource amount
if that were the case, the weights would sum to 100
oblique hollow
yeah, just checked. Weights are indeed reverse order. Uranium is heaviest so his recipes try to save on it
wicked tinsel
tbh, i wonder how his tool computes stuff
eg it prefers blender based aluminium even tho it needs sulfur for no particular reason
oblique hollow
tbh, i wonder how his tool computes stuff
he told me recently. want a tl;dr?
oblique hollow
He basically just sends a list of all recipes(weighted) to a server that has a linear programming solver
fierce ruin
if that were the case, the weights would sum to 100
that's the inverse
muted crypt
oh
oblique hollow
and then he receives an answer in the form of "use x machines to get x products"
so the actual solver is a black box
fierce ruin
neeeeeeerrrrrd!
wicked tinsel
eg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334686897609768960/838939450938622003/unknown.png this is preferred over https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334686897609768960/838940262590971904/unknown.png
oblique hollow
neeeeeeerrrrrd!
shut up nerd
fierce ruin
eg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334686897609768960/838939450938622003/...
any set to max?
oblique hollow
eg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334686897609768960/838939450938622003/...
minimizes oil
muted crypt
that's the inverse
he does total availability / resource availability, then? but you didn't say that initially lol
that's why I was confused
wicked tinsel
limited on silca and baux, maxes alu
oblique hollow
the instant scrap saves on oil
fierce ruin
he does total availability / resource availability, then? but you didn't say tha...
visible confusion
muted crypt
resource amount/total resource amount
you said this, but what you just told me was the opposite
wicked tinsel
minimizes oil
but isnt sulfur much more rare than oil?
muted crypt
but isnt sulfur much more rare than oil?
11700 oil vs 6840 sulfur yes
fierce ruin
limited on silca and baux, maxes alu
quartz is weighted very closely to baux
oblique hollow
but isnt sulfur much more rare than oil?
i guess the math checks relative used ammounts too?
sure, instant uses sulfur, but how much, comparatively?
oblique hollow
just because "rare resource is used" doesnt mean you cant use it
fierce ruin
this is resources possible not availible
oblique hollow
if i use ALL the oil vs a bit of sulfur, it will prefer sulfur
since theres MANY more recipes that need oil
wicked tinsel
π€
oblique hollow
and sulfur is really just either power or..... nobelisks
if you try to max something out, it doesnt regard rarity
thats why setting maximize vs "max in numbers" gives different results
wicked tinsel
sulfur is also used in t8 elevator stuff iirc
oblique hollow
battery
wicked tinsel
and supercomputers, but dunno how those are relevant really
fierce ruin
if you try to max something out, it doesnt regard rarity
it doesn't regard cost
oblique hollow
but thats it
oblique hollow
it doesn't regard cost
thats what i meant, yes, thanks
oblique hollow
and supercomputers, but dunno how those are relevant really
if you use that one alt that needs batteries
fierce ruin
weight*amount = cost
oblique hollow
i guess (x sulfur * a tiny bit used) wins out over (x oil * a LOT used)
fierce ruin
graghs lines to show intersection
oblique hollow
graghs
fierce ruin
fell to spail
wicked tinsel
i think i will go with oily setup as it seem easier overall for now
oblique hollow
batteries
wicked tinsel
yeah
you need bateries for drones too and thats major usage probably if i want cool stuff
oblique hollow
but those are really not a lot of numbers. id honestly rather not use that super-state alt if i need sulfur elsewhere
fierce ruin
a π§ and π mcgalleon is violent...
oblique hollow
salt? xd
oblique hollow
oh π€£
bleak coral
@wicked tinsel McGalleon said it earlier though: the calculator doesn't prefer instant, it's just that the maximize function doesn't account for resource usage. It just uses the first thing that gets it the most stuff. Here's the 1560 in items/min with all recipes on: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=fiDcec32rKq31ZlMxynG
wicked tinsel
yeah
oblique hollow
i enabled all alts and got this when i asked for 100 ingots/min
not the best combo buuut its ok
wicked tinsel
i tries to skip on silca
oblique hollow
of. quartz is a bit limited too
wicked tinsel
i built silca factory separately so i got it as explicit input
which probably did what it did
but yeah. quartz isnt too common either
oblique hollow
at 10000 ingots things change....
it still tries to minimize quartz
so it mixed pure and normal
bleak coral
yeah got to force it to use some stuff, that's what setting the input limit is for IMO
cause if you let it go wild it'll just not use some rare resources at all
oblique hollow
thats why i prefer adjusting the input numbers
or just...... do things my own way and only use greeny's site to confirm math
wicked tinsel
yeah, i just tried to get general idea
bleak coral
I like doing: decide resources and maybe ppm goal, set the input limit, then start playing between maximize and items/min and turning recipes on and off until I get a solution I like
bleak coral
I use it to skip the basic math essentially, instead of just taking the first solution to a problem
what do you think of the other one? I find it too slow for my tastes personally, and I prefer the logistics-agnostic approach of greeny's
oblique hollow
anthors?
oblique hollow
i dont like how it shows things as multiple seperate nodes. sure, theres the simple mode but.....
wicked tinsel
output is too complicated to my taste tbh
i understand that it tries to show how it will actually look like but eh
oblique hollow
idk. im not really sold on that....
loud heron
What's wrong
bleak coral
checking out the simple mode, and it still looks more messy than the equivalent chart on greeny's
plus there's not search on any parts of the production calculator, so turning off recipes and finding an item for input/output sucks
and there's no maximize at all
wicked tinsel
here is my chart, it ignored silca input completely and decided to mine more baux than i had inputted
muted crypt
I vote greeny and anthor work together to combine the websites into one, using greeny's calculator and anthor's map.
wicked tinsel
no clue how to disable that
fierce ruin
I vote greeny and anthor work together to combine the websites into one, using g...
crashes ram
muted crypt
haha memory consumption go brrrr
wicked tinsel
also realistic mode is . yeah
fierce ruin
hey that's a nice spider web
bleak coral
oh yeah this solve is using oil, and I didn't add oil as an input :/
muted crypt
also realistic mode is . yeah
oh dear lord
wicked tinsel
i mean, it will probably look like this in game but
bleak coral
so I guess the input is just for additional items, and you can't affect the resources it will grab at all
wicked tinsel
you will use manifolds so it doesnt look that bad in practice
bleak coral
oh man it makes some weird recipe choices too, not that greeny's isn't immune to some interesting choices but I at least understand why it's doing that
so I can work around it cause the tool is doing what it's supposed to, just not what I want
muted crypt
curious of examples
bleak coral
can you share from anthor's site?
bleak coral
56.25 heavy modular frame with all alts, try that in anthors
make sure to do simple
and here's it on greeny's: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=UZVJDouJ8A3d7z2gOzZv
wicked tinsel
yep
bleak coral
anthor uses ~3x more oil, ~35% more iron, and saves 40% of the limestone compared to greeny's
that's a weird resource choice
also uses more power, and has more buildings
does it prefer nicer ratios or something?
wicked tinsel
not sure
muted crypt
I know I would
that's literally the only reason why I made 3600 turbofuel
it's because every machine is at 100% clock speed for processing and consumption, with the exception of extractors
oblique hollow
laughs in 270 turbo
muted crypt
like was it fun? yeah
bleak coral
that's valid, hard to tell if that's what's happening though cause even in simple mode some of the machines still seem arbitrarily separated
muted crypt
am I happy with how it turned out? after I got Galleon to help with getting the last 12 GW, yeah
stupid pipes...
fierce ruin
McGalleon wants to know your location
muted crypt
he was already there
bleak coral
I had to solve my pipes myself, cause mcgalleon saw my architectural choices and said "fuck no"
muted crypt
like three or four separate times LOL
oblique hollow
does the damn petroleum coke work now?
muted crypt
I haven't actually been able to get on the game in the last few days
I will open it tonight and let you know
oblique hollow
only took like...... fixing the turbo pipes, fixing the fuel pipes, fixing the coke belts, fixing the HOR pipes, fixing the oil pipes.......
muted crypt
also, full disclaimer: by "haven't" I mean "chose not to because Path of Exile exists"
bleak coral
anyone have any further theories on why putting pumps in the middle of a manifold fucks it up? like it made the end of the manifold at the top starve
oblique hollow
same reason as valves? prevents self-balancing?
bleak coral
figured that'd make ones at the bottom starve though, cause liquid would get "stuck" past the pumps
oblique hollow
whatever it is, using valves or pumps really messes with manifolds
so i prefer to only use them when feeding the manifold
bleak coral
yeah I've added that to my list of best practices with pipes: all pumping before manifolds, and valves only as needed
I cringe when people suggest like valves before each machine, it's super unnecessary and I'm afraid they'll break the setup
oblique hollow
also pressure
its horrible
the self balancing is the most useful thing for pipes
if only the setup wasnt so damn hard
bleak coral
I think I've only got a couple valves in my whole factory, and it was in front of and behind the tank holding some seeder water for the recycling refinery in an aluminum setup
and I probably only need the one preventing the seed water from going back into the pipe system, the other I doubt is necessary
oblique hollow
i dont even have seed water
i just do funny recycled loop and hope it never fails
bleak coral
yeah I do isolated recycle loop, but the downtime when it goes idle kept it from warming up completely
I, uh, might stop telling people to do that, cause it was a bit of a pain to fix. Now I know how to do it, it's fine, but valves on fresh water input restricting flow is probably simpler
oblique hollow
it definitely is
buuut the problem is that the system can never halt
or you got issues
bleak coral
mine can halt, but only so many times
cause every time it starts up it eats of bit of the feeder water
oblique hollow
who knew that inefficient factories are inefficient
bleak coral
I think, maybe now that it's balanced it's infinite
oblique hollow
below 100% efficiency = below 100% efficiency confirmed
bleak coral
he did the math
muted crypt
bleak coral
1 = floor(0.9Μ ) + 0.9Μ
oblique hollow
tf is that
bleak coral
Pi = depends on your clockspeed
oblique hollow
now that's an engineer right there
officially a mechatronics technician now, since last week friday π§
late nacelle
they should hire you to take care of the parts sent to part assembly who knows
oblique hollow
e = 3
sqrt(2) = 2
sqrt(3) = 2
bleak coral
pi = 3
e = 3
pi = e?
muted crypt
pie
oblique hollow
sqrt(2) = sqrt(3)
square both sides
2 = 3
oblique hollow
Snutt = Comnity Manager
Jace = Comnity Manager
Snutt = Jace confirmeded
proven prawn
@oblique hollow
oblique hollow
Wha
fierce ruin
the hell went on up there?
oblique hollow
Math expertise
fierce ruin
π π§
topaz hedge
congrats mcgalleon XD
oblique hollow
Youre late to the party xd
fierce ruin
he easily blue away the competition
oblique hollow
Also @proven prawn why the ping
topaz hedge
Lol, I've been away for quite a bit as of late :/
fierce ruin
yeah why did you ring him up @proven prawn
magic shadow
pi = 4 proof
oblique hollow
Heretic
versed violet
"4 proof" in US english means "2" for other country speakers. neither of which is particulary close to actual value, unless you like square wheels
magic shadow
what no
abstract copper
vital quest
when you overclock coal generators to 250% is their water consumption really 91 cubic meters or is it a bug?
fierce ruin
i'm not sure of the exact value, but it should be close around that