math-and-meta

[gusty nexus]

or let us use it in the chainsaw or something

[tall stratus]

Still quite useless

[fierce ruin]

idle power draw will exhaust it tho

[tall stratus]

Let's say you feed liquid biofuel it to a blender with power slugs, sulfuric acid and turbomotors to get x2 power shards compared to what you would from just creating a normal shard. That means red slugs gives 10, yellow give 6 and green gives 2

That would give me a reason to go for liquid biofuel at least

[oblique hollow]

i just made an entire self contained factory segment that runs on its own (green) power grid, just for the heck of it

[muted crypt]

Make SAM ore processing involve liquid biofeedback somewhere

[oblique hollow]

as it currently stands, it will have enough fuel for...... days

[gusty nexus]

lol SAM ore and the alien artifacts

[muted crypt]

..biofeedback?

Thanks phone, that's not what I said tho

[gusty nexus]

has there been any indication of what they want to do with that stuff?

[muted crypt]

Nope

[bleak coral]

They've talked about SAM maybe being a limited resource

[gusty nexus]

limited? nodes exist\

[oblique hollow]

diluted packaged biofuel when

[bleak coral]

They could make them run out, technically the fact that they don't right now is a bug

[muted crypt]

you seem like the kinda person who would do the single biomass burner challenge and enjoy it

[oblique hollow]

add even more freakin water to it

[fierce ruin]

water the chances of that

[oblique hollow]

i just semi-automated bio

of course im happy

[muted crypt]

lmao

[oblique hollow]

automatic biofuel gens

hannah would be proud

[upbeat tide]

REEEEE

I knew this would need fixing but grrr

[fierce ruin]

#screenshots

[muted crypt]

hear me out:
some combination of diluting the solid biofuel to make more liquid biofuel and then a way to filter out all of the bio part of it so you're left with biomass chunks and water... but a net positive of biomaterial

[oblique hollow]

infinite feedback biofuel

[tall stratus]

And juuuust enough net positive to actually automate it without actually gaining anything from it

[muted crypt]

I like this

[tall stratus]

Maybe you can run a lamp on it or something, idk

[muted crypt]

therefore you have to supply the initial system with biomass but after the fact it is entirely self contained

[oblique hollow]

free energy, 100% efficiency

[muted crypt]

if I had this set up here, which side do you prefer more for visual effect, left or right?

I denoted the splitter on the left side simply because it's a 2:1 split

everything else it's just assumed to follow the arrows and merge/split as necessary

on the right is the same idea but I also show where those lines merge too

[fierce ruin]

y not cheap silica

[muted crypt]

this is a basic, no-alt aluminum setup

[fierce ruin]

ah

are you splitting for looks or for 480 belts

[muted crypt]

it's meant to help people feel their way around with aluminum before building something bigger, this specific one is just to prevent mixing of recycled and fresh water

basically just tripling this @fierce ruin

[fierce ruin]

for the wiki?

looks right I think since it splits into 3

[muted crypt]

not necessarily for the wiki, though it could be added

[muted crypt]

I know it functions, both sides at the bottom of the columns function the same, it's just a matter of what would be better for someone following this

[fierce ruin]

looks neato

[muted crypt]

I need to know which side to use for consistency purposes throughout the diagram

[fierce ruin]

gotta go with right, tho not consistent it doe provide clarity

[muted crypt]

alright that's one vote for right. anyone else willing to weigh in?

[willow pilot]

My aluminum setup is a gentle flower, if it backs up at all then the recycled water will fill up and I'll have to take a train out to my processing facility to flush the tank. 😬

[muted crypt]

cwm what do you think about the image, left or right?

which looks better? they're both functionally the same, it's just how I want the split lines to be displayed.

I do genuinely think this is the only spot where this happens though........ so uhhhhh....

[willow pilot]

Right side has better clarity that you're using a Splitter/Merger

[muted crypt]

I guess now that I think about it like that, this is the only spot where something is split specifically in a 2:1 ratio

[willow pilot]

For a good flow diagram it sucks when the lines intersect and it doesn't provide a good "decision" node on what's happening.

[fierce ruin]

would it be a 2/3 split

2:1 implies a merger of two belts

[muted crypt]

well I mean it in the sense that at the splitter I want two going one way and one going the other

so yeah a 2/3 split, i.e. a 2:1 ratio of splitting

[willow pilot]

My aluminum setup is pretty half-assed just to get some basic aluminum out for me to unlock stuff, I'm only using silica that's generated by the refinement process, haven't added any in yet lol

[fierce ruin]

but where are you going to show these prints?

[muted crypt]

here, I dunno

[fierce ruin]

most important part is the recycle loop

[muted crypt]

yeah I'm getting there

but this new model is being diagrammed specifically so there's no recycled water mixing with fresh water

as I think I've said a few times lol ¯_(ツ)_/¯

also those are 200 belts at that point not 300 lol

[fierce ruin]

you can also add text to arrows

for where it fits

[muted crypt]

ye

[topaz hedge]

I hate water extractors... reee

[fierce ruin]

uses iron alloy recipe instead

[willow pilot]

what do you do with your recycled water if you're not feeding it back into the bauxite chain? just burn it off with a coal gen?

[oblique hollow]

I always feed it back. There is no alternative to me

Packaging wastes oil

[topaz hedge]

you have to feed it back.. there's too much water

[fierce ruin]

or steel

[topaz hedge]

or concrete?

[fierce ruin]

this is #math-and-meta after all not #satisfactory-experimental

[topaz hedge]

If you're really determined not to deal with it.. make wet concrete and sink it...

[willow pilot]

That could work, I'm just sinking the plastic byproduct from my Fuel Generator plant lol

[muted crypt]

anyone colorblind here to anything?

sounds stupid but it's important

[fierce ruin]

is it not b/w

[muted crypt]

I'm using different colored lines to indicate what merges where

[topaz hedge]

I'd get used to dealing with it, and working it back into the system with valves/buffers/pumps because if you get into the habit of throwing it away, it's going to bite you when you start dealing with batteries and nuclear

[muted crypt]

though I guess I could just use arrows if a belt is merging into another belt...

I'll show you in a sec what I'm doing

[fierce ruin]

it's probably online about what colors work best in CB mode

instead of color you can play with line style

[willow pilot]

I'm eyeballing battery production next, what's the big gotcha with that one apart from it using up some of my alumina?

[topaz hedge]

byproduct water lol

[willow pilot]

Ugh more? 😐

[topaz hedge]

that's why I suggested getting used to dealing with it, as finnicky as it is.. they really want us to deal with byproductos :/

[muted crypt]

or line style could work... that's not that bad of an idea

[fierce ruin]

maybe de sat a bit they kinda blend with the white

[topaz hedge]

You could also use the classic battery route, which uses manufactures and not blenders, downside is you have to use copper and plastic.

[willow pilot]

I think I have mine set up well so the water wont back up, but that only happens as long as my aluminum production doesn't fill up storage

[fierce ruin]

saturation variation may also help

[topaz hedge]

I forgot to mention use smart spliters with overflow to sink scrap or ingots to make sure the system never stops

[willow pilot]

Yup already started doing that with coke 😄

[fierce ruin]

@muted crypt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ5goMBD6oc&ab_channel=shounic

for ideas about basic color design

[muted crypt]

make a literal blueprint lol

this was a preset option, just had to recolor the belts a bit

[vestal wharf]

pain.

[muted crypt]

yes

[vestal wharf]

oh well, maths go BRRRRRRRRR

[topaz hedge]

Why I hate water extractors... 360 production 360 consumption and this is what you get over time

[willow pilot]

Could always go with hot pink and lime green

[topaz hedge]

Every time you load your game, it gets worse... and worse until machines starve

[muted crypt]

@topaz hedge

[topaz hedge]

What's this for? I run a 75:100% 1:1 sloppy:electrode setup

[muted crypt]

oh this is just a very basic aluminum with all base recipes, but it's just to show you to use valves lmao

[willow pilot]

I usually like to try and overproduce at least a little, so I'll have a full waiting queue rather than perfect ratios

[topaz hedge]

xD alright.

[muted crypt]

speaking of base aluminum... @fierce ruin imma go check on that system real quick

[topaz hedge]

but, that system might fluid lock and fail @muted crypt

Oh no wait, I see it now nevermind

[muted crypt]

it's what I'm using right now, we're about to see if it'll ever fluidlock lmao

because for roughly 15 hours, if not more, it hasn't yet

[fierce ruin]

🤞 😬

[topaz hedge]

I thought you had the valve feeding freshwater into the same pipe that the aluminum scrap refineries dumped into.. you're not so you should be good

[muted crypt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558721941410807812/831638255350841345/unknown.png

here's the whole diagram

[topaz hedge]

When you do diagrams with valves or pipes. maybe show flow direction arrows? xD

[fierce ruin]

also line jumps

[muted crypt]

yeah all that stuff was discussed earlier lmao

I'm making a new diagram so there's never any mixed fluid, that's what this other thing I'm working on is

it's just this^^^ but tripled

[topaz hedge]

if you need to know who to line jump XD

[muted crypt]

water is fluctuating between 2.9 and 6.2 at its extremes, out of the 10.6 the pipe can hold in total

[topaz hedge]

i dunno if they're really necessary. not as much as the flow lines.

[muted crypt]

that is the pipe directly on the other side of the valve blocking off the fresh water

[fierce ruin]

any starving?

[muted crypt]

very rarely does it dip to 2.8, so my bad - 2.8 to 6.2

[dense mica]

For the record: Electrode aluminum scrap can very rapidly have you eating up most of the silica and bauxite on the map.

[willow pilot]

We just need fluid runoff valves so we can dump heavy oil residue into a lake just like in real life.

[fierce ruin]

true

[muted crypt]

one is only ever briefly full, the other is never full @fierce ruin

all machines at 97/99% efficiency (since 100% doesn't exist apparently)

[fierce ruin]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[muted crypt]

no this is good

it's never starved of fluid

[fierce ruin]

I haven't done this in awhile lol

[muted crypt]

I feel as though if I flushed the system it'd work fine, I didn't when I had implemented this lol

[dense mica]

HOR is a demon.

[fierce ruin]

It's HORible

[bleak coral]

the HORst

[fierce ruin]

HOR Crimes

HORrendous

HORriffic

[dense mica]

Did the pure aluminum ingot get removed?

[fierce ruin]

no

[dense mica]

it is confirmed, I am a brick.

[fierce ruin]

🧱

[dense mica]

Gonna use that so I don't have a silica based apocalypse

[topaz hedge]

aluminum is HORendous alright.. I don't like half empty pipes,(because they misbehave.. those naughty pipes) and with alumium setups.. you can't have full machines/pipes

[muted crypt]

here, tell you what

imma just build this damn diagram and we'll worry about colorblind-proofing and idiot-proofing later

[fierce ruin]

♻️

[willow pilot]

Trying to figure out why my Supercomputer production is getting starved, and my 6 plastic refineries are using mark 1 belts, with only one refinery handling byproduct. 😂

[dense mica]

oops

[upbeat tide]

Wait until that 6 refinery count becomes 60

Than 120
Than 240
Than... you get the idea

[fierce ruin]

480 780 1200

42069

[upbeat tide]

No 1337420117

[bleak coral]

black and white is always color-blind proof

[fierce ruin]

what if they're color blind because they're blind?

[upbeat tide]

Whats the color blind references about?

[fierce ruin]

scroll up

[upbeat tide]

And which flavor of color issue?

Blue-yellow
Red-green?

Ah

Default recipes meh

[fierce ruin]

gross

[bleak coral]

sloppy or bust?

[fierce ruin]

sloppy is loved by the calc

[muted crypt]

okay so you say this, but

[topaz hedge]

sloppy seconds are loved by all

[upbeat tide]

Sloppy is richious

[muted crypt]

I think this is person proof

[bleak coral]

I didn't say it was readability friendly, we'd all just have the same issues reading it

[upbeat tide]

And no cheap silica?

[muted crypt]

so we solved colorblindness obstacles by making it worse

[bleak coral]

inclusive in it's inaccessibility

[muted crypt]

doing this diagram completely alt-free

[topaz hedge]

Well as far as idiot proof.. if you're trying to do that then I'm afraid you've already messed up >.>

[upbeat tide]

Whats the point then? Nobody will build alu en masse with stock recipes unless a challenge

[muted crypt]

well it's idiot proof in the sense that idiots cannot use this

[upbeat tide]

Imo

[muted crypt]

this system also isn't for mass producing aluminum, it's to get you off the ground

if you want something much smaller, I already made that, but it involves mixed water

this diagram does not, hence why I'm making it

[fierce ruin]

seems too big for off the ground

[muted crypt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558721941410807812/831638255350841345/unknown.png

[topaz hedge]

Haha.. Alright, you're good then. the diagram isn't bad though

[muted crypt]

so then just keep this one?

[fierce ruin]

harder to tear down then

[muted crypt]

I could maybe change the shape of the valves to indicate flow direction, hang on

ah shit wait this diagram's on my laptop

do I really wanna go get that

[topaz hedge]

That or arrows on the lines to show flow direction :3

[muted crypt]

well there are arrows

[fierce ruin]

there is no idiot proofing

[muted crypt]

good point

[topaz hedge]

I know I've said that before. and I tried to add arrows and it looks like shit >.>

[fierce ruin]

ow that saturation

[fierce ruin]

animate it

[muted crypt]

I don't actually know how to change background color

[lone pivot]

what is that software ya'll are using to make the charts?

[muted crypt]

pain, one moment lemme go get my laptop

[fierce ruin]

draw io

[lone pivot]

tyty

[muted crypt]

this a little better, @fierce ruin?

[fierce ruin]

||sexy||

[muted crypt]

I indicated valve direction as well.

this better for you as well, @topaz hedge?

[fierce ruin]

now add layers

[muted crypt]

wdym

[fierce ruin]

god this is ugly

[dark badge]

not sure if its updated, but there is a cool tools site that can build out production chains for you

[muted crypt]

that would be easy

we don't do that here

[fierce ruin]

[dark badge]

lol

[topaz hedge]

yes XD

[muted crypt]

besides the calculators don't really like... explain building logic

[fierce ruin]

you were saying?

[muted crypt]

just processing logic

[bleak coral]

technically SCIM tries

[muted crypt]

it does, but... no

[bleak coral]

but not sure how good it is at recycling loops

[west gale]

Pure Aluminum Ingot: enables me to save all the silica generated from the Aluminum process, but I lose out on efficiency with the scrap. Anyone have thoughts?

6 scrap to 4 ingots (standard), requires 1.25 silica per ingot
versus
8 scrap to 4 ingots (pure)

[fierce ruin]

unless you want crystal oscillators what else do you use quartz for?

[west gale]

silica could go into alt recipes for computer parts

[fierce ruin]

caterium is favored there

[west gale]

hmm

it's also part of the Tier 8 uranium processing system

[fierce ruin]

you can look at the calc to compare production chains

[west gale]

I know

[upbeat tide]

So, I unlocked particle accelerators and built one just to see how big it is. Those puppies make refineries look like constructors 🙂

[fierce ruin]

CERN makes it look like a conveyor support

[topaz hedge]

I could be wrong, but I think CERN uses less power too

"CERN uses 1.3 terawatt hours of electricity annually"... Okay maybe not, not even if I left my game up for a year making nuclear pasta, that's only .031 TWh

[fierce ruin]

Are you CERNtain about that?

[muted crypt]

🚪 go, there's the door, get out @fierce ruin lmao

[supple mural]

for comparison, New York City uses 140TWh annually

wait that's the state of new york

[fierce ruin]

Beautiful

[fierce ruin]

What’s the difference?

[supple mural]

the state of new york is a lot bigger than New York city

ignore my inconsistent capitlization

[fierce ruin]

Sarcasm

[supple mural]

figures

i wasnt sure if you were being sarcastic or just not american

[fierce ruin]

But what is nyc at?

[supple mural]

i should probably expect the former at all times with you -_-

[fierce ruin]

Uses alt instead

[supple mural]

cring

also it seems that NYC is at 50TWh a year

that measurement includes natural gas burned for heat, so its not all electricity

still, that makes the LHC a power drinker

[fierce ruin]

Cern vs lhc

Oh nvm lol

[supple mural]

they're the same kek

[fierce ruin]

I thought cern was another collider

Why I don’t major science

[supple mural]

understandable

[fierce ruin]

🤏🧠

[supple mural]

granted, the LHC is only a part of CERN

also, we need bigger particle colliders IRL

then we can detect what quarks are made of! or soemthing

[fierce ruin]

I heard some were Up some Down, but I still find them strange and charming even tho I don’t and can’t appreciate them fully

But people are still looking top to bottom for them

[topaz hedge]

Quite a bit of natural gas is used for power as well. us humans have followed our fellows pioneers on massage by switching from coal to fuel generators.

[fierce ruin]

They’re fuel of it

[pine rapids]

Hey, what kind of throughput are you seeing from drones?

[supple mural]

<@&673829841413603379>@

wait i didnt meant to @ anyone there lol

oops

[vast jungle]

each drone connection tells you how long it takes to get to the destination and back... you can have two drones for each pair of ports...
each drone has 9 stacks...

so the maximum throughput should be 18 stacks divided by the roundtrip time in minutes

it gets less if you use a "one to many" drone port routing design

[sand epoch]

I do 4 drones minimum per 780 line.. up to 8 for really long cross-map distances

[lone pivot]

i love the irony of scientific advancement. from fire to particle colliders. we're still smashing things together after thousands of years.

[inland shadow]

when using power storage to smooth out geo, how many? I've been doing for max

or is that not "optimal"

[lone pivot]

if we take a pure node that has a power generation of 200 - 600(avg400). then given the capacitors have discharge limit of 100. then i'd assume 2 would be enough. given that at the low point 200+200=400 and at the high point 600-200=400. could be wrong tho. this is just what makes sense to me at first glance

[bleak coral]

There's no discharge limit, just a charge limit. Same conclusion though.

[lone pivot]

oh my bad, it's a charge limit, not discharge

remembered wrong .__.

[calm flax]

You calculation may be off though. Cause although the average is 400. The charge kept is more related to the duration of time spend below 400 rather than anything else

[bleak coral]

It's right if it spends less than 1 hour below 400 and an equal amount of time above.

[calm flax]

Yeah so if the charge is 100Mwh . You get 1 hour per 100 under. So a single one for a 200MW drop in power covers 30 minutes downcycle

[lone pivot]

i see your point. but given the min and max rates of 200 - 600 and an average of 400 wouldn't that also mean that it spends the same amount of time below as above the average ?

[calm flax]

Well yes. Thats why its an "average" 😉

[bleak coral]

I don't know, haven't measured the curves.

[lone pivot]

for example if it was min 200, max 1000 and avg 300. then i'd deduce that it spends most of it's time below the average and then sometimes spikes really high

[calm flax]

Yes but you would still have a equivalent mirror. So this also bring charge rate (a max of 100MWh into play)

[lone pivot]

in which case we could still apply the same equation (Max-Avg)/100=amount of capacitors needed

[calm flax]

So if you have 200 avge(300) max(400). You need 1. If you had 200 avg(300) max(1000) you need (1000 - 300) / 100 which is (max - average) / max charge rate

[lone pivot]

haha ye we're on the same page 😛

[calm flax]

unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to build some kinda bridging circuit to hide the power changes on geothermal :/

[lone pivot]

what do u mean ?

[calm flax]

So like a transistor. Where you connect the geothermal circuit which is connecting to the main grid with a limited to advertise X amount of power which would be an average

[lone pivot]

ah u mean like segregating the grid with the geos and then feeding the main grid a set amount from the geo grid ?

[calm flax]

Yup. So you can build a power plant that says. I guarantee to give X power. So when you look on the grid its connected to shows a flat power curve

[lone pivot]

ye i feel ya, long wanted more possibilities for conditional management for all things from belts & pipes to power grids

at least i feel like this step with the power switch & storage is a step in that direction

[calm flax]

Same with the capacitor. Which is its a same terminal in as out so you can't really have automatically protected redundancy

[lone pivot]

ye, just gotta wait for ficsit networks to become compatible with update 4

[calm flax]

yeah soon 🙂

[lone pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/cant-wait-yay-excited-happy-so-excited-gif-11207973

awe, gifs are blocked

[calm flax]

I actually think something like a transistor ciruict is needed for the storage. That way when you have power storage you can control the discharge rate as well

and a circuit breaker would be useful lol. eg draw more than X over it and it trips the fuse

[lone pivot]

i'm in general an advocate for options. so i say sure why not. can't really think of a reason why you'd want to limit the discharge tho ?

[calm flax]

It would guarantee you time. eg This battery will provide XMW for Y time period when fully charged

It highlights when something goes wrong eg you think its discharging at 200MW when in reality it could be discharging at 15,000MW

[lone pivot]

ye, but if machines dont get the full amount they want they wont run and the discharge rate auto adapts to meet the demand? i could see it be a thing if we had stuff like dynamic powerswitches

[vast jungle]

if you have an "overproduction" of 200 MW, you need at least 2 batteries, otherwise power will get lost. The powercycles of a geothermal generator should be short enough that 200 MWh are enough for smoothing out the curve

[calm flax]

Well yeah but it just blows the fuse instead (hence the circuit breaker) you can protect the power plants internally

[lone pivot]

ye i feel ya. and i mean i'd not against, just i'm not sure i'd have any use for them unless we had other stuff to go along with it

[calm flax]

also its interesting to "play" with 😄

[lone pivot]

haha ye for sure. 😛

[vast jungle]

yes, power storage sounds fun... not sure how much I need but I will add one later... (but first I want my Aluminium production up and running)

[calm flax]

A good place to probably aim for with power storage is current power requirments by 1 hour or so

It is something thats overpowered int he early game lol. I will just drop down there 25 assemblers to make my 2500 vert framework (20 mins)

[lone pivot]

ah u mean like storing a bunch of power to produce the project assembly stuff in a burst ?

[calm flax]

yup

[lone pivot]

i go the complete opposite way about things xD

[vast jungle]

I will definitely not make 400 power storage units 😉

[lone pivot]

399 then? ;D

[calm flax]

It takes about 5 mins lol

@vast jungle You know they changed snap a little bit with ctrl? So you can just "backoff" with the hover pack and lay grids of things in seconds.

[vast jungle]

it was already fast with "dense row" building before... but I can see how the hoverpack make long rows even easier to build

[lone pivot]

i'm just sad that all these super convinient things for building is at the end of the progression xD

[calm flax]

Well yeah but the builds go from needing 8 of something to things like waaaaaaaaaahhh i need to put do how many refineries? Things like 192 😛

[lone pivot]

ye fair enough

[calm flax]

Yeah copper pure for 780 = 52 refineries per node lol

[vast jungle]

okay, I stay with Copper Alloy... thank you...

hmm, okay 52 refineries is not THAT bad... but still lots of effort for a bit more copper

[lone pivot]

ye for sure but with limited ore generation on the map u do what u have to do

[calm flax]

pasta is limited by copper 😦

[round forum]

What’s the current best method for Aluminum? Pure Scrap via Blender?

[vast jungle]

depends on the definition of "best"

easiest to build?
most power efficient?

[round forum]

Most efficient in resources to output

[vast jungle]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=PduaN0kaRFALQoRueZ1g

this looks like a 1-1 between Bauxit and Aluminium Ingots

[calm flax]

its also a trade off between coal / oil (pet coke) isn't it?

[vast jungle]

coal is easier to do, coke is more efficient (I think)

[calm flax]

I have always found the reverse of that but its situational

[round forum]

Is that for instant scrap or solution into scrap?

[lone pivot]

he linked ya a flowchart

[vast jungle]

the flowchart is just "considered all available recipes, whats the least amount of resources you can use for 720 Aluminium Ingots"

reduce the number to 600 Ingots and you get a great 4-3-20 split between Sloppy Aluminia and Electrode Scrap and Pure Aluminium Ingot

[round forum]

I hate how there’s no universally good factory planner one always misses what the other has

[vast jungle]

I tried a few planners and satisfactorytools is perfect for me... the handling of "additional inputs" could be better, but I still really like it

[lone pivot]

the best one i windows notepad+calculator

[vast jungle]

not when you want to experiment with lots of different recipes... because its not fun to do an exponential increasing number of combinations by hand

[lone pivot]

i dont mind

i prefer to do my own math. dont trust calculators and such

[wind spade]

and yet you said you use a calculator 🤷‍♂️

[lone pivot]

sry let me clarify

i use a normal calculator, but i meant i dont trust a factory calculator

[vast jungle]

you don't trust an "optimization strategy/algorithm" you don't know...

[lone pivot]

ye

[wind spade]

factory calculator is just a normal calculator wrapped in a fancy UI

[lone pivot]

nah it's not at all xD i mean ofc it uses math. but it's really more of a pattern finder

[vast jungle]

still, its a good tool to check the results of your own calculation... nothing is worse than do a calculation by hand for hours, then spend hours on building the factory only to notice that you misplaced a digit because of a lack of sleep ^^

[wind spade]

and fyi the algorithm I use is linear programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming

no patterns really

[calm flax]

I did that wit fused quickwire :/ which was pure copper, pure caterium + quickwire

[wind spade]

it's pure math, matrixes and stuff

nothing else really

[lone pivot]

ye

[fierce ruin]

Nerds

[lone pivot]

what did u expect in a maths and meta channel related to a factory design computer game xD

[deft lichen]

@wind spade not sure why, but the calculator seems to prefer encased industrial beam over the industrial pipe alt despite the latter consuming less coal and iron

[wind spade]

can you share links?

[deft lichen]

sec

[lone pivot]

ahaa! the notepad rains supreme xd

[deft lichen]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=Ql5i5UpZ4thuUvx8T6Xd

it does not happen when I make it produce just EIB

but it does prefer the default recipe in this setup

[wind spade]

because this setup uses maximisation and that doesn't optimise for raw resources 😉

[wind spade]

no, that's just a limitation that's already handled in a new version that I'm working on.

[vast jungle]

but going back to the Aluminium numbers... 600 looks like a really got input number... at least as soon as you have a MK5 belt.

with two pure nodes you could do 2 full 600 setups and 1 half "300 setup" which keeps most of the nice numbers

the only bad thing is that its not easy to keep "recycled" and "fresh" water apart

but 180 water is luckily easy to produce

[lone pivot]

i made a system in 3.5 that worked for priorotising the byproduct water over the fresh water from the pumps by elevating it over the junction that merges the two water sources

[vast jungle]

hmm... if you do the 3 Sloppy Aluminium Refineries with 100%, 110% and 90% it works!

[lone pivot]

why 1 90% and 1 110% and not just 3x 100% ?

[vast jungle]

the 110% + 100% Refinery can run on the recycled 420 water, the 90% Refinery runs on the 180 Fresh water

no mixing of water necessary

[lone pivot]

ah i c

[vast jungle]

if you care for space, you could also run 1 Refinery at 210% and 1 Refinery at 90%... and still get the nice numbers on the other side and the separater water

[oblique hollow]

I resorted to the sloppy + pure recipe. I stacked the scrap refineries on top of the alumina refineries and fed the water back into them from the top

Works flawlessly

(finally, at least)

[vast jungle]

not sure what you mean with "pure" recipe
Pure Aluminium Ingot? Thats what we are talking about...

[tough hornet]

1 sloppy refinery at 100% to 1 scrap refinery at 133%, easy feedback water managemenet while being compact

[oblique hollow]

Yeah, pure ingot

I just did all the refineries at 100% because that works out, apparently

Or at least im not sure anymore

[vast jungle]

@oblique hollow my idea is to use the 4/3 ratio from Sloppy Aluminia/Electrode-Aluminium-Scrap, but split the Sloppy Aluminia into 210%/90%... so that the waste water of all 4 Electrode-Aluminium-Scrap Refineries can go into one (or two, 100%+110%) Sloppy Aluminia Refinery and the 180 Fresh water into the other one.

should reduce the headache about mixed sources of water

[oblique hollow]

Mixed really isnt an issue, the only problem i encountered: i overfed the system with fresh water due to bad math

Now that i feed in exactly whats needed, theres no issues

And ill be honest: doing the math there can be troublesome at times

[vast jungle]

^^

[oblique hollow]

Buut it certainly works

[lone pivot]

the second there's even a tiny stop in the refineries the pipe is still gonna fill with fresh water and you're slowly gonna build up a clog :/ this is why i really want a prio input junction

[vast jungle]

I think some people reported that a mixed water source (fresh + recycled) can go wrong without the "priority liquid merger" when your production stops... because the fresh water keeps trying to add water to the system...
not sure what exactly can go wrong, but I was looking a way around the whole problem

[oblique hollow]

You mean without valves, right?

[lone pivot]

nah even with valves

like let's say u need to add in 500 fresh water/m to keep the system running

[oblique hollow]

The problem of recycling really is that it needs 100% efficinecy, yes

[lone pivot]

if your refineries stop for even a split second it's gonna be slightly less then 500/m demand and over time this adds up and your pipe get's clogged

[vast jungle]

I think the problem happens when the fresh water manages to fill a buffer in a machine that should be filled by recycled water

then you suddenly have "no space" left for the recycled water anymore

[tough hornet]

i solved all my issues with pump on feedback pipe and valve on input - output empties instantly

[oblique hollow]

Insufficient mixing

[oblique hollow]

I did that with gravity + valve

But yeah, valves need pressure to work in low flowrate systems

[lone pivot]

ye i placed a buffer tank for the recycled water at an elevation aswell back in and old update and that seemed to work in a way that gave the recycled water prio. not sure exactly how stable it is, but it held up for atleast a few houndred hours

[vast jungle]

I don't trust Gravity in Satisfactory... it seems "unreliable" 😉

[lone pivot]

ye i feel ya. i'm not even sure it's supposed to work that way. i just made a bunch of test rigs for different possible solutions. and this is the one that worked. so i put it in my actually setup and it continued to work. not sure if it'll eventually will run into issues but as i said it held up for quite a while

[oblique hollow]

Mind you, you ONLY gain gravitational pressure in full pipes

That means the bubble icon needa to be filled

[vast jungle]

I will try to build a test setup with the 3-4-20 numbers this week and hopefully come back with results later

[lone pivot]

ye that's why i had the buffer because it needed to fill up a lil bit but after that it worked

[vast jungle]

I just need to build the Coke production too, but this will be trivial

[tough hornet]

oil well ❤️

450 is just enough to process all my 5.4k bauxite in swamp

[lone pivot]

i'm building a base on a 90 degree angle in a sense. so instead of lining machines side to side, i do it upwards on new floors xD

[vast jungle]

I am building my Aluminium production at the West Coast... lots of Bauxit (2 pure nodes) and lots of oil there... and I import copper ingots from the Rocky Desert via train

[oblique hollow]

If you really dislike feedback: use a dedicated refinery that gets fed by recycled water only

Thats also something i like

[bleak coral]

that's the only version of the system that can actually start and stop automatically right?

otherwise it needs to keep running as far as I know

[oblique hollow]

Yeah, that one can run at less than 100%

The normal feedback needs 100% efficinecy, else it breaks

[tough hornet]

but why stopping it? that late there is no way you dont have sinks

[lone pivot]

the prio system can stop too

[oblique hollow]

As if im gonna package and sink water

[lone pivot]

in the case of power outages and shiet u dont want your system to break down

[tough hornet]

i mean sinking ingots and keep refinery up

not water ofc

[oblique hollow]

Power outage shouldn't be too bad

[oblique hollow]

Oh yeah sinking ingots is fine

[bleak coral]

🤷‍♂️ some people just store stuff, though yeah you could have fail-safe sinks for the scrap

[lone pivot]

nah it's not. but it does happen xD

[oblique hollow]

Power Storage exists now you know

So you can prevent outages in time

[lone pivot]

good point, it wasn't a thing back when i did the prio system

[bleak coral]

y'know for as long as I haven't added any sort of plan for power outages it's felt just like hubris, but it's gone on long enough now I'm just daring the universe to challenge me

[oblique hollow]

Using a coal generator as a water sink is fine too, but there better places to use coal

I really gotta look into test setups for efficient priority valves

The normal one is too unreliable

[tough hornet]

now you can build local "battery" bank

[oblique hollow]

And a true priority could be useful in more exotic cases

[tough hornet]

if you need to guarantee power safety

[lone pivot]

i can see if i can dig up some pictures if u want mcgalleon

[oblique hollow]

Nah im fine

[lone pivot]

nps

[oblique hollow]

I have enough own source material 😉

[bleak coral]

no no, the idea is I keep just tempting daring fate to give me the karma I deserve and whoever blinks first loses

[oblique hollow]

Me and never backing save backups

[lone pivot]

xD i never do either xD

unless it's something special

[vast jungle]

I backed up one save before I downloaded U4... but thats it.

I might need to remove a "few" saves from the savefolder in the near future, the number gets out of hand...

[swift robin]

so for a feedback loop you want to recycled water to input back into the system at a lower Y value than the fresh input in order for pipe logic to prioritize it, right?

[lone pivot]

in my experience u want the recycled water on a higher elevation then the freshwater

[oblique hollow]

Yeah

Or have a pump and valve combo

Its all about pressure

[lone pivot]

ye, u want the recycled water to have a higher pressure as to take prio in filling the output pipe from the junction

[green path]

Drones are more effective than trains.. Or are they?

[vast jungle]

what you mean with "effective" ?
Trains are better for mass transport while Drones are got for low-amount of stuff to deliver to/from remote locations

like most things in Satisfactory, its all about tradeoffs...

[slate flax]

drones are cooler therefore superior

/s... or is it /s?

[frosty owl]

Mhhh, maybe I should follow follow your example and clean up too...
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/830587443630833676/830589501033676820/Cattura.JPG

[dull bolt]

First thing I saw Oil, but better 😂

[vast jungle]

Sounds like Turbo-Oil!

[frosty owl]

It was actually a rework to get to my final version of the "Henning-style packaged fuel" setup 😆

[vast jungle]

^^

[upbeat tide]

Now we have blended fuel, I never wanna touch again packaged diluted 🙂

[vast jungle]

packaged diluted fuel wasn't that bad

[upbeat tide]

Oh i know. I diluted something like 4000m3 of oil in U3 🙂

[vast jungle]

I developed a nice pattern during building my first turbofuel powerplant... and kept it for two other factories...
okay, with the Blender recipe its not necessary anymore. but it was fun because it didn't need extra space left/right of the refinery

[upbeat tide]

My DPF setup uses sets of 6.67 refinery and packager rows as close as possible. The machines need 7 to 8 foundation width for room.

[vast jungle]

I think I would overclock the Blender so it can take the output of two HOR Refineries to keep a tight pattern

my DFP setup was 10m for a slice of turbofuel... 1 HOR, 1 DPF, 2 Packagers, 3 Turbofuel... all in a slice of 10m

[upbeat tide]

This was my last U3 DPF setup

[vast jungle]

but with the blender...

maybe a 2-1-6 pattern? 2 HOR Refineries (for 80 HOR), 1 Blender (OCed to 160%) and then 6 Refineries (or 8?) OCed/UCed to consume the 160 fuel

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NNagdcb24XF2arvG7

this is mine... with the packager under the unpackager

[upbeat tide]

Well, for blender I know this works.

300m3 oil > 10 HOR refineries > 400m3 HOR > 8 DF blenders > 800m3 fuel

[vast jungle]

(and a "packaged water" belt below the Refinery)

yes, but 10 HOR are a totally different width as 8 Blenders

[upbeat tide]

Well, my setup has the HOR refinement in a different building altogether

The HOR refineries are in the far right structure and DF blenders in the middle

[vast jungle]

hmm

[upbeat tide]

Image is a bit old during construction, but general layout is unchanged

[vast jungle]

have to tackle this problem when I build a new plastic/rubber factory...

[upbeat tide]

Yup thats next on my docket

Gonna use the blue crater again for that purpose

[vast jungle]

would be a pain if the factory complexes get even bigger than before... 😐

[upbeat tide]

It should be smaller with DF blenders

At least for that stage

[vast jungle]

I don't typically build factories in separated stages...

and the blender input/output rate is just awful... HOR goes by "40", recycled stuff goes by "30", Blender DF goes by "50/100"

hmm
four HOR refineries (40 m, UCed to 150 output together), 3 blenders (54m), 5 recycled rubber refineries (50m), 5 recycled plastic refinereis...

[upbeat tide]

54m? You taking footprint into account?

[vast jungle]

yes, because that makes factories easier to scale and to build

like I said, one "turbofuel unit" in my current powerplant is just 10m width... and the powerplant just has 15 of them

all of them the same, without any intermediate interconnection

so you can build and test each of the "units" on its own

[frosty owl]

Blenders ratios are really nice if you don't shy away of over/underclocking ^^

[upbeat tide]

Ah I go a slightly different approach. I also break it down into modules.

Like this is just my turbo blend fuel section. Each side has 28 blenders broken into two banks of 14, and farther into two more banks of 7, for a total of 8 banks of 7 blenders. Each makes 300m3 TF and pipes it to fuel gens

[vast jungle]

recycling was 30 fuel input, right?

[upbeat tide]

Yes 30

[vast jungle]

so...
3xRefinery (120 HOR), 2x Blender (OC 20%, 240 Fuel), 4x Refinery(Recycled Plastic, 240 Plastic), 4x Refinery (Recycled Rubber, 240 Rubber)
still 2 Blenders are huge...

no... 36 meters... the 4 refineries are wider (40m)

[upbeat tide]

Actually I foubd blenders to be smaller than I thought they would be

[vast jungle]

still, I am not really happy with the numbers... I don't like to OC that many buildings...

[upbeat tide]

I would much rather have 3 blenders > 10 recycled recineries

That way there is no over or underclocking needed

And as long as I dilute enough, than the math is fine. For that Ill need to dilute 1200 HOR which isnt that bad

Which would make 8 pipes of 300m3 fuel

[vast jungle]

450 Oil => 15xHOR (600 HOR) => 12x DF (1200 Fuel) => 20x RePl + 20x ReRu (600 Plastic & 600 Rubber)
Byproduct: 300 Polymer Resin

[upbeat tide]

Yup sounds spot on

[vast jungle]

I don't think I will build a 3rd Turbofuel powerplant anymore... so I am more interested in rubber/plastic numbers

its a pity that 300 is not dividable by 40 😉

[upbeat tide]

Yea my TF plant needs 800m3 fuel. At least still no OC needed for the DF blenders there

And I have no plans to add another. Next will be nuclear

[vast jungle]

I think if I would build more TF, I would go with BTF

[upbeat tide]

Thats what I did

Cuts down on sulfur use dramaticlly for starters

[vast jungle]

and on coal

[upbeat tide]

Yup

My entire TF plant that makes 2400 TF only uses 1200 sulfur. Much lower

It allows me to have all the sulfur production I desire and still have a tad left over

1200 - TF
600 - munitions
600 - batteries
2100 - nuclear rods
1512 - plutonium rods
With a tad over 800 outstanding

[vast jungle]

I think I use ~ 1000 Sulfur for Turbofuel at the moment... ~ 40 GW of power

but 450 Oil => 600 Plastic + 750 Rubber sounds like a nice idea for a next big project on my TODO list 😉

[upbeat tide]

Yup

[vast jungle]

but first Aluminium

[upbeat tide]

Im already planning a sloppy + electrode + pure setup for aluminum

I know im losing ingots, but I also kinda want to max aluminum

[vast jungle]

1-1 between Bauxit and Aluminium Ingots... just needs a bit Coke

[upbeat tide]

Issue with maxing aluminum ingots atm is that if standard recipe your looking at a huge raw quartz cost. Half to 2/3 world supply depending if you use regular alumnia solution or not

And instant scrap is a non starter due to sulfur

And would also have no silica byproduct, thus not so fun

[vast jungle]

I am still debating how much of the Aluminium will become Sheets, how much will become Casings and how much will become "something else"

[upbeat tide]

Yea havent got there yet myself

But getting the ingots is 2/3 the battle anyway

[vast jungle]

just a nice 4-3 split...

600 Bauxit is a really nice number to start with

[upbeat tide]

It is

[vast jungle]

and then OC one of the 3 Bauxit Refineries to 110% and UC one to 90%

[upbeat tide]

3 sloppy refineries > 8 electrode scrap > 20 pure smelters > 600 ingots

[willow pilot]

You guys are capping out all quartz on the map with fully OC'd T3 miners? or is this more theoretical?

[upbeat tide]

Just need to add coke and 180 lm3 water

Some visual aids

These show how to max alum scrap

[vast jungle]

you mean 600 Bauxit > 3 sloppy > 4 electrode scrap > 20 pure smelters > 600 Ingots

[upbeat tide]

Yea 🙂

[vast jungle]

what do you think about my OC/UC plan for the Sloppy-Refineries?

[tough hornet]

oc to 133.3 scrap refinery makes whole setup easy

[upbeat tide]

Unless its a pure node should need no OC/UC

[vast jungle]

my idea is that 210% of "Sloppy Aluminia" consumes exactly the water produced by 400% "Electrode Scrap"

so I don't need to mix fresh and recycled water

[willow pilot]

What are you doing with 13k aluminum ingots per minute? 😮

[vast jungle]

the fresh water will go into the 90% Refinery

[upbeat tide]

Yes 🙂

[tough hornet]

i have mostly alclad sheets, and one line of casings for now. sheets go to heatsinks and batteries whil casings for fused frames

5.4k bauxite

[vast jungle]

I have two pure Bauxit nodes ready hooked up to belts... so my first setup will be a bit smaller 😉

[tough hornet]

two copper nodes with pure copper ingot as all needs tons of copper

[willow pilot]

so is the Pure Aluminum recipe no good compared to the Silica Eater?

[vast jungle]

Quartz is really rare... not sure you want to waste it for Aluminium...

[tough hornet]

pure is fine. as you won't use whole world quartz just for aluminium

[willow pilot]

Ok good, now I just need the RNG gods to give me the unlock, I don't even have turbofuel yet lol

[vast jungle]

you just need enough HDs 😉

I think I grabbed ALL Tier 1-6 HDs from U3 as a preparation for U4

[willow pilot]

Yeah I've been a bit lazy with exploring, mostly just grabbed the ones around the Red Desert

How bad are the battery consumption numbers for Drones?

[fierce ruin]

How do you make these?

Is it like a site or ...?

[mystic moon]

Satisfactory calculator. Linked in #welcome

[fierce ruin]

Alright, thanks!

[sand garnet]

Satisfactorytools.com @fierce ruin

[fierce ruin]

Thanks, this one looks nicer than the others.

[sand garnet]

Thats the one from thosr screenshots

[fierce ruin]

Yup I got it.

[sick dew]

I’ve found it pretty relaxing to go back and balance my old factories. This is what I wrote down when fixing my aluminum sheet factory for update 4. I turned out needing way less buildings to produce the same amount, but rather than redo all the piping and conveyers I opted to underclock whatever I already had. I’ll probably go back and update it in the future to produce more

[eternal portal]

I have a question about trains and how to fill platforms, am I in the right channel? 😄

so here we go: I already looked up the optimal roundtriptime (RTT) for pure (4:06) and normal (~5:23) nodes. If the RTT for the train is higher, my factory will run dry on the ore input when built with the 600/780 items/min in mind. What can I do to fix this? Tap another node and merge it into the input of the first freight platform?

[vast jungle]

I would always suggest putting an ISC between the station and your belt

[eternal portal]

that is a given

[vast jungle]

okay...

[eternal portal]

its connected with both belts to the platform

[vast jungle]

and one belt to your node?

I don't see a problem with the throughput... if the distance is very far, you might need a second station or a second train

[eternal portal]

so lets assume I have a pure node with an mk3 miner clocked to the max of a mk5 belt, so 780 items/min

that means, to realize the 780 per minute on the receiving end, the RTT needs to be 4:06 minutes

if the RTT is higher, the items are consumed and the factory runs dry

[vast jungle]

if you are close to this times, you should just add a second train car... which easily doubles your throughput

[eternal portal]

so: do I need a second freight platform with another node to bridge the time gap?

[vast jungle]

just try it... its not an exact science... just use one car and see if the receiver starves...

[eternal portal]

it does, I checked that 😄

thats why I ask how to fix the starving

[vast jungle]

add a second car and split your belt into both ISCs (connected to each of the stations)
and then merge each ISC into a single belt to your factory

this way each train car only needs a "390/min" throughput, which should be much easier

if necessary, add a third car

[eternal portal]

hm but how does that fix the starvation?

ah because of the buffering?

[vast jungle]

exact... 2 train stations, each connected with TWO mk5 belts to their own ISC... thats a LOT more speed to load/unload the stations

[eternal portal]

wait, but my problem is not load/unload times, its the RTT

[vast jungle]

the RTT is irrelevant

you need throughput... with the right amount of buffering, any RTT would work for you

[eternal portal]

maybe i need to describe my problem different

the ore my train delivers is used up before it delivers the next batch

[vast jungle]

we have a single MK5 belt you want to "extend" with a train without loosing throughput

[eternal portal]

yep

[vast jungle]

with two train wagons, each train will deliver twice as much items, so they will be enough for double the time

[eternal portal]

but each train wagon needs to be filled with its own belt & node?

otherwise I don't understand it

[vast jungle]

each train wagon will have its own ISC... connected with two belts to the train station

so if you have two wagons, the buffer(s) on the "sender" side are connected with FOUR mk5 belts to the stations...
same on the "receiver" side

the ISCs buffer the "blocked belt" time of the station, the distribution to multiple wagons allow greater batches of items to be transferred in the same amount of time

[eternal portal]

ah okay, because my limiting factor is the maximum batch size one train car can deliver

[vast jungle]

and the unloading speed (2x mk5) minus the load/unload block time...

[eternal portal]

so when one belt is split into several cars, I can extend this. and on the receiver I merge it back together

[vast jungle]

exactly... with an "arbitrary" number of train cars you can scale this up as far as you want... if you have enough input 😉

[eternal portal]

nice, thank you mate!

[vast jungle]

no problem... trains are a pain to get right... but they are FUN when you get them 🙂

[gusty nexus]

is there any value to electrode aluminum scrap now? after they switched the original and alternates?

[muted crypt]

you go from a 2:3 ratio of solution to scrap to a 3:5 ratio (10:15 vs 9:15) - the lower the solution number the better the ratio is, so if you're willing to invest oil you can get more scrap out of it

[fast urchin]

Have I done some miscalculation or is turbo fuel now completely unnecessary at the endgame (trying to aim for max points) even when not producing any nuclear waste/plutonium waste? Both turbofuel recipes have value 0.0 for me when trying to optimize the points

Ah wait, there is a third turbofuel recipe now

[muted crypt]

Correct

I have done... a bit too much analysis of turbofuel

Raw components per unit of turbofuel for each recipe:

normal:
- 0.45 crude oil 
- 1.2 water
- 0.8 coal 
- 0.8 sulfur

heavy:
- 0.938 crude oil 
- 1 coal 
- 1 sulfur 

blend:
- 0.75 crude oil 
- 0.333 water 
- 0.5 sulfur

Compared to normal turbofuel, blend turbofuel has 66.667% higher crude oil usage, 37.5% lower sulfur usage, 100% lower coal usage, and 72.222% less water usage (negligible for all purposes but power consumption).

We just don't talk about heavy turbofuel.

[fierce ruin]

turbo heavy fuel*

[muted crypt]

shush

[gusty nexus]

which one?

fwiw i don't have any other version of turbofuel yet

[fast urchin]

Well, that seems like the best version of turbofuel, but I have now restarted calculating, it isn't finished yet and I haven't saved my old result 😕

[muted crypt]

1 and 3 are good, I'd say 1 is better

[gusty nexus]

yeah i went with the turbofuel recipe

not that i am currently in a position to make good use of it, but hey

[muted crypt]

lol understandable

yeah they added a bit more crude oil to the map with this most recent update, but sulfur was your bottleneck for turbofuel either way I believe

so using less sulfur is nice, no coal is an added bonus

I think it was only like 1800 crude oil added, but still - that's a roughly 18% increase of oil on the map

[fast urchin]

Strangely now, Casted Screws also has a small value. Probably because it "just" uses a bit less energy and is more convenient, does not increase max production that much

[muted crypt]

well, by itself, it doesn't change resource consumption at all.. all it does is cut out one step of processing.

[fast urchin]

well, it uses less energy, so less resources which would be needed for energy production

[muted crypt]

fair

[gusty nexus]

less steps is usually better

[empty tusk]

how much uranium fuel rod i need per minute ?

[muted crypt]

That is a very open-ended question

[empty tusk]

any ratio for the nuclear plant ?

[muted crypt]

so I'm just going to answer 'yes' until more information is provided

[gusty nexus]

as in how many do you need to keep one (1) nuclear power plant running 100% of the time?

[graceful narwhal]

one rods burns for 5 minutes

[muted crypt]

at 100% clock speed you consume one uranium fuel rod every 5 minutes with one reactor.

[graceful narwhal]

and will produce 10 uranium waste/min

[empty tusk]

1.6 uranium fuel rod / minutes how many power plant at 100% i can place ?

8 ?

[muted crypt]

1.6 * 5 = 8

[empty tusk]

nice

thank u

[muted crypt]

so I'm looking at the two recipes for plutonium fuel rods.. is it safe to assume that the alt is better? or am I looking at things incorrectly?

[bleak coral]

depends on your definition of better, it makes more fuel rods from less waste. but that means you make more waste and also need more resources to make the rods

so depends what you're trying to do

[muted crypt]

mmm... I see

[signal nimbus]

So... bit of a subjective question, but I'm curious what the general consensus might be. Is it worth it to use a less efficient recipe that uses more common materials (copper, iron, limestone) or a more efficient recipe that uses less common materials (oil, caterium, quartz)?

[muted crypt]

Depends entirely on context there too

[bleak coral]

Depends on the recipe too. Some of them are bad tradeoffs (flexible frame for example), and some of them work out (steel coated plates for example)

usually being oil, and usually with diluted + recycled

[muted crypt]

my goal is to make "clean nuclear" so

[signal nimbus]

Okay, so... just taking those two as examples, what makes flexible frame bad, but steel coated plates good?

[bleak coral]

so you're sinking the rods or minimizing waste?

[muted crypt]

sinking

[bleak coral]

just use regular then, the others are just for making more power with more resources & waste

[muted crypt]

any other alts within the process that I should be aware of? I've never done nuclear, so I've never looked into it.

[bleak coral]

you use all the uranium alts, and avoid the plutonium alts if you're sinking

so uranium fuel unit & infused uranium cell

[bleak coral]

Just numbers. Steel coated uses little enough oil and saves enough iron to come out on top with weighted resource efficiency. Flexible doesn't save enough resources to do that.

This is also of course only looking at it from a weighted resource efficiency perspective, and not considering other possible positives like speed.

so again, Depends™️

[signal nimbus]

Ah... so that's why bolted iron plates keep getting called good, then?

[bleak coral]

Who's doing that? @frosty owl what lies have you been spreading 😛

Joking, it trades more iron for speed and having to use screws.

[signal nimbus]

XD I watch the screenshots of alternate recipes. That one keeps getting picked, and I really never understood why.

[muted crypt]

when using base recipes for plutonium stuff, how much uranium waste is needed for each rod?

[bleak coral]

200

[muted crypt]

just so I can plan that stuff out

thank you

[bleak coral]

and if you ever want to burn it, it effectively becomes 10 waste

with base recipes

[bleak coral]

I don't know. I think people see a fast recipe and think it's good. I think most of the fast recipes are bad including that one. They don't go fast enough to make up for having to create more stuff. So they defeat themselves in power and space efficiency.

vencam likes to use bolted plate with bolted frame to reduce the item types and help logistics

[signal nimbus]

Mmm... makes sense. I think this one would win in terms of lag efficiency, especially if overclocked. 37.5 from a single assembler is pretty decent.

[bleak coral]

A kinda indisputabley good fast recipe is steel screws, that thing is fast fast

I want more of that

[muted crypt]

but it is not the most resource efficient way to make screws 😉

[signal nimbus]

Oh yeah... I just steer so clear of screws in my plans it rarely comes up.

[bleak coral]

barely, but unlike other fast recipes it's fast enough that it's inefficiency doesn't hurt the system overall

[muted crypt]

or you can just cut out screws entirely in an ideal world

lol

[bleak coral]

yeah I avoid screws too haha

but if I didn't, I'd probably use steel screws to avoid transporting lots of screws, and just do 1:1 into whatever needed screws

[idle sigil]

Hey which one do you think ?

[fierce ruin]

2 for energy and convience

*power

[idle sigil]

thanks

[topaz hedge]

this is the way to put the screws to something. it's actually rather nice.. it makes screwing quite enjoyable.

[supple mural]

.>

[tardy glen]

need a little help here, is the "turbo pressure motor" recipe better?

[fierce ruin]

it's good for max motors but is hungry af

[tardy glen]

tks

[frosty owl]

If I need to get things going fast (rushing throw tiers or so), bolted plates and bolted frames (obvs with steel screws) is my fave. Heavy on steel and iron, sure, but unless you wanna go very large-scale, it's worth it's convenience ^^

Interestingly, for this run I happened to spare some steel ingots, so I combined that with the coated steel plates and ended up with arrays of 5 assemblers and 2 constructors making 10 frames/min each, pretty darn quick to set up and scale

[idle sigil]

Next one 🙂 what do u think ?

[jade shore]

my vote's on copper alloy ingot

[sand epoch]

just pick one. not like your limited. you WILL eventually get them all.

[jade shore]

hard drives and 900+ slugs

or maybe it's 900+ powershards after processing the slugs

[sand epoch]

either is still correct.. lol

Doggo's and all..

[signal nimbus]

@frosty owl That makes sense. Actually planning a HMF factory atm... is it worth the oil to go Coke Steel?

[frosty owl]

The extra steel I mentioned was actually from coke steel xD
If you got HOR to spare, it's definetly worth it. Fast, (100/min :superexcited:) and just 10 HOR every 40 coke

[signal nimbus]

Well, I don't plan on going turbo fuel, so yeah I got oil to spare.

...and I'm down to 7 pure iron nodes, 5.4 pure limestone nodes, and... about 1.7 mk2 oil pipes for 90/minute.

[frosty owl]

90/min HMF?

[dry wave]

I'm about to start implementing my mega-base. Any recipe change suggestions? https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=lWZNW6jnL7AYZqYIPfWH

[frosty owl]

Use alts as often as possible (computers, HSC, RCU), drop the iron wire, save on sulfur by dropping the instant scrap, make turbofuel in blenders ^^

[jade shore]

Agree on instant scrap.. it's good for small batches early on, but 2 coal + 1 sulfur per 6 scrap hurts in the late game. Using sloppy + electrode scrap means 5 bauxite + 2 coke = 10 scrap, and coke is pretty cheap

[bleak coral]

I don't understand the point of instant scrap, like what does it do better than the normal way with regular or electrode?

[frosty owl]

It's instant

[bleak coral]

you're just trading making alumina solution for making sulfuric acid

that's a side step at best

complexity wise

[frosty owl]

It's 50 acid every 150 bauxite (1 refinery's worth). Brings down the overall complexity by a decent margin

[dry wave]

I guess you guys are right. I was thinking it'd be slightly simpler, but I think I'm just irrationally against petroleum coke production for some reason

[bleak coral]

less machines is not less complex, it's just smaller

[frosty owl]

Petroleum coke is terribly cheap, and it's actually quite convenient to make since late game you'll be turning pretty much all oil into HOR anyway ^^

[dry wave]

I'll get over my coke prejudice

[bleak coral]

IMO it should do one or either of:
a) use compacted coal instead of sulfuric acid + coal
b) not make waste water so you don't have to do a recycle loop

preferably B), because I think it'd be something cool it can do no other recipe can

[frosty owl]

It's less complexity down the line too: no need for coke, skip the whole alu solution piping
Ofc, it all depends on having the right things at hand ^^

[bleak coral]

you're not skipping on piping, you're just trading it for piping a different material

and the regular recipe doesn't need coke if you don't wanna do coke

[dry wave]

I need to maximize bauxite, so it's coke or acid

[frosty owl]

I could see myself using it if I had sulfur next to my baux honestly... Since it's 2400 baux for a single sulfur node, it can scale "conveniently" to quite the number too

[frosty owl]

Coke all the way imo

[dry wave]

I'm building a robust train network anyway, so gathering stuff isn't the deciding factor

My turbofuel setup is done and was pre-u4, and I don't want to rebuild it.

But in the future I'll use the blender

Wait, the calculator says the turbo blender is less efficient

[frosty owl]

Actually you skip on a humongous amount of piping.
Eg: take 300 sulfur and 900 bauxite, add JUST 60 water/min and 600 coal and you get your scraps

Gotta admit, the amount of water needed is ridiculous (10/min if you loop back the byproduct)

[frosty owl]

That's just 1 water manifold Vs 2 water manifolds + 2 solution manifolds

[dry wave]

What's wrong with this setup? https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=3v79sQ9nB4LRKwPGf2hn

it's producing less for 1 oil node than non-blender

[frosty owl]

Uses a bit more oil, but saves on sulfur and is FAST

[dry wave]

Ah

[frosty owl]

Lund speechless by the piping reduction

[bleak coral]

it's 2 water manifolds + 1 sulfuric acid manifold vs 1 water manifold + 1 (or 2 depending on how you pipe it) alumina solution manifold

[dry wave]

1.25 turbofuel per sulfur non-blender, 2 turbofuel per sulfur with blender. Not a huge savings. My build comes in under full sulfur utilization anyway

[frosty owl]

Right, forgot about the acid xD (though it's fed 1:1, quite convenient)

[bleak coral]

plus you can pipe the solution in one pipe and just have inserts

RRRR
||||
____
||||
RRRR

[frosty owl]

That looks like a troublesome pipe setup to me 😅

[bleak coral]

it's less junctions and less pipes, and the flow stays low throughout

I've done it, and it works great

[frosty owl]

No, 1 water manifold is actually enough (300 for acid, 60 for scraps)

[bleak coral]

fair enough

so what are we up to now? 1 water + 1 other? haha

for both

though if I'm gonna argue my thing, I'll concede and say just 1 water manifold for instant since you could just 1:1 the sulfuric acid

[frosty owl]

If you squeeze it down a lot, yes, but flow-wise 4 pipes are needed for the non-instant

... I worded this so weirdly 😅

[bleak coral]

4 pipes of flowrate sure, but like I said you don't need 4 pipes if you take it out as you go

[dry wave]

I think what you guys are saying is that I should build a small test sample of both and pick whichever is pretiest

[frosty owl]

You can 1:1 the solution too, though needs OC magic ^^

[bleak coral]

I mean sure, use whatever you want, still gonna think instant is trash

[dry wave]

I've collected a lot of slugs and am not against OC magic

[frosty owl]

Yeah, just taking it as a "measurement" for the amount of piping needed

[bleak coral]

perpetually disappointed by the lack of a lightning bolt emoji in discord

[frosty owl]

We're just debating on wether the instant scrap is actually convenient to use over the 2 steps normal allu scraps refinement ^^

[dry wave]

Best way to decide that is to just put them side-by-side

[frosty owl]

If you go large scale, you should rule out the instant scraps due to the amount of sulfur it takes (unless you're REALLY not concerned about sulfur)

[bleak coral]

I don't think either of us think instant is efficient, I just also think it's not convenient

or at least just the same as normal

[dry wave]

The calculator says there is enough sulfur on the map, though maybe I'm overestimating how fun it will be to get it all on the train

[frosty owl]

Sulfur should be prioritized for nuclear and batteries first. Then the spare can go wherever you want ^^
If you do the other way around, you won't have enough for nuclear (lack of power) or high-tier logistics (lack of batteries)

[bleak coral]

small scale it's probably fine, just gotta make sure there's enough sulfur left for nuclear, batteries, and turbofuel

[dry wave]

What do I need batteries for?

[bleak coral]

drones

[frosty owl]

Flying trucks

[bleak coral]

that's just normal trucks 😛

[dry wave]

Unless they fix drones so I can fly on them, I don't really plan on using them

[frosty owl]

Your loss :P

[dry wave]

I'm gonna have trains literally everywhere

[frosty owl]

Drones are handier. No meed for huge spaces ^^

[dry wave]

Well, how many batteries are we talking for, say, 10 drones?

[frosty owl]

Bout 60/min?
Havent dabbled with those number much yet :/

[bleak coral]

on the subject of convenience, to me convenient is simpler/less complex which instant isn't
if you're talking about what's easier to make, I can see how the piping could be easier depending on personal preferences and the local setup. and maybe you could find instant easier/nicer to setup. which is far more subjective

I still think it shouldn't have waste water to be in theme with "nicer/easier to set up" so you don't have to do a recycling loop

[frosty owl]

Convenience is subjective :P
Eg: if you don't have sulfur next to bauxite, why would you even consider using instant?
If you got oil next to bauxite, the coke one is clearly the best bet
... So on

[bleak coral]

true

[dry wave]

I've already decided against instant.

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=iNMvgzjnsHNfvF6vCwvd

[frosty owl]

But I should really hit up the calculator to argue machine count (which I think favors instant) which I'm too lazy to do on mobile

[bleak coral]

machine count probably does favor instant, curious if footprint does too

[potent hearth]

I don't know if a question I have counts as math & meta, or questions and help: whats the highest altitude in the map>

[frosty owl]

Large scale instant scrap = big bad

[dry wave]

I was thinking turbofuel. Ignore my deleted msg.

[bleak coral]

@potent hearth https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/World#World_size

[upbeat tide]

Instant scrap bad any quantanty

[frosty owl]

See conv above for context

[dry wave]

Instant is about 50 fewer machines, but 1500MW more power

Do pure water resource wells give 600 or 300?

How much water do I get from the 11 pure waters at mid-south?

[bleak coral]

pure give 300 overclocked

[dry wave]

Boo, that sucks

[bleak coral]

little disappointed they didn't make the water wells faster

[frosty owl]

That number is for max bauxite?

[dry wave]

yes

[frosty owl]

Meh

[bleak coral]

50 fewer than how many? percent matters more than just the number

[frosty owl]

I'm guessing 150/200

[dry wave]

Both take 217 foundry, 620 assembler (for full ingot production). The difference is 65 ref, 65 blend vs 179 ref

[bleak coral]

btw, Q&A site posts for:

• instant scrap is weak: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6052d3b4aa0ba107e3251911
• water wells are weak: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6053f25baa0ba107e3251f6d

[frosty owl]

Heh, I wasn't too far off, actually

[bleak coral]

oh that's super meh, bet the footprint is about the same or more for instant

blenders are like 2x refineries in size right?

[frosty owl]

Not too bad on machine count
130 Vs 179

[dry wave]

Yeah

[frosty owl]

But you can stack 2 floors of blenders in the space of 1 refinery floor

[bleak coral]

oh wow just checked the wiki, yeah blenders are way smaller than I thought

[frosty owl]

They're as big as manifacturers pretty much

[bleak coral]

they're about the same volume as refineries, but 44% more footprint

refineries are tallbois

[frosty owl]

I'd trade blenders for refineries, tbh

[dry wave]

I was just hoping the water wells would be decent because I need to figure out how to spread out my base, and I'm currently putting a ton of stuff over water.

[frosty owl]

Might just be due to how sick I am of placing refineries Vs blenders still being new

[bleak coral]

I will say every alt that moves something from a blender into something else makes me sad

so I getcha

[dry wave]

I was optimistic about blenders saving me from refineries too.

[bleak coral]

I mean they killed diluted refineries dead

just gunned down in the street and everyone clapped

[frosty owl]

Nobody likes making too many tall bois

[bleak coral]

they're very cool, especially after their fluid update makover, but yes they've overstayed their welcome a little bit

little off topic, but y'all want to guess what my most upvoted Q&A site suggestion is?

[dry wave]

Once I decided to ignore the minor clipping when running belts under pipes, refs became much less heinous for me.

[topaz hedge]

then they gunned down packagers... and we drank and partied

[bleak coral]

yeah but we also got compressed nitrogen, so it's not completely dead

[topaz hedge]

mostly, it's more like they were moved to their rightful place.

packing fluids for alternative transport lol

[frosty owl]

Also, diluted fuel before blenders still go brrr

[bleak coral]

yeah, wish they made all packaging like that, or at least the non-fuel stuff

would make it way more tempting to use, but I guess they don't want to kill fluid cars

[topaz hedge]

well, fluid cars are still useful for moving nitric acid

probably more useful for that than anything else

[bleak coral]

@frosty owl this one where I asked for the input buffers in machines to be reduced, for us manifold folk: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/60518819aa0ba107e32511e3

the uh increased stacks were a bit of a double-edged sword for manifold people

encased beam manifolds now.....

[frosty owl]

I graciously spared all you hethans from making a meme about it and tagging you all

[fierce ruin]

why not?

[frosty owl]

Too lazy, too little time to waste

[fierce ruin]

||I C||

[frosty owl]

Also, getting the translation fixed for U4 was a bit of a hurdle

[frosty owl]

@marble coral This setup works wonders in being quick to make, easy to expand and fast

[marble coral]

oh just normal frames? not the hmf

[frosty owl]

I didn't mention the HMF cause you got no alts for them (or I didn't notice one)

And yes, I made the setup separate from the HMF since I just manifolded both the frames and the reinf plates to get the excess in storage

[frosty owl]

"The thread" you might be interested in. I figured I'd save you the search @red plover

[red plover]

Alright, awesome! Thanks so much

[simple moth]

i wish I could custom one build for underclock/overclock but dropdown menu is kind of useless

i mean on Satisfactory calculator

or rather, need to add menu: "Allow smelters overclocking?" so i can choose no

meh

[muted crypt]

You could just follow along with greeny's calculator, it runs faster than the one on Anthor's website from my experience and isn't as convoluted to use

I like using greeny's calculator and anthor's map

[umbral harbor]

Where's that calculator?

[muted crypt]

Pins

I do not believe it's been updated for U4 yet, so in the top right corner of your page you'll want to select the experimental option for the most recent recipes.

[hoary crater]

How useful overall is the steel screw alternate? When comparing iron usage

[bleak coral]

you can compare recipes in the calculators in the pins

I'd use greeny's, you can turn off regular recipes to force it to use alternates

[sand epoch]

Screwless is best :)

[wind spade]

regarding iron usage, even better than steel screws is steel rod -> normal screws

[topaz hedge]

greeny, you really like those normal screws lol

[topaz hedge]

Steel screws and 1:1 screw constructors with machines that need them > no screws at all most of the time.

[wind spade]

no, I like the steel rod, that enables normal screws to have even better steel efficiency than steel screws

[bleak coral]

realistically though if you're doing screws you're not being efficient

I don't think a single recipe that uses screws is the most efficient version

[wind spade]

not really sure about that, they were decent in U3 and not much changed for U4

e.g. for rotors they are good

(not like there's too much alternatives there tho)

[bleak coral]

looks like it's half and half, rotors and modular frames use screws on their efficient recipe and reinforced plates and HMFs don't

forgot rotors use them, been forever since I made them

and I like steeled frame to use with encased heavy

that's not the efficient one though

[wind spade]

I don't get screws on all-alts modular frames (with disabled oil)

[bleak coral]

oh right default uses rods

so I guess it's just rotors

which does copper rotor

[topaz hedge]

Copper rotor bad

[wind spade]

copper rotor godly recipe

[topaz hedge]

It uses copper. It bad

[bleak coral]

we're just talking about efficient, I know a lot people like steel to match with stators for clean manifolds

[wind spade]

how is using copper bad?

[topaz hedge]

Copper is too precious to some of us. Others don't carr

[wind spade]

also yeah, just rotors for "most efficient", but generally they made screws much better than in U2, so you're no longer shooting yourselves in a leg when you're using them, you're just being slightly less resource efficient

[topaz hedge]

I'm still ironing out the details of a copper free nuclear setup (:

[bleak coral]

oh right nuke pasta wants a lot of copper now

guess it depends whether you need to save on coal or copper

[topaz hedge]

I'll agree with greenie on the standard rotor recipe though. Add some steel screws and a bit of overrclock and it's my favorite

[wind spade]

I fail to see how is copper precious in any way, but 🤷‍♂️

[bleak coral]

not steel rotor to match up with stators in motor production?

[topaz hedge]

Overclock fixes that and makes it match with no ironwire

Copper disappears really fast when you start making ai limiters and hsc

[wind spade]

don't think it's that fast with that 2.5 times boost from pure

[topaz hedge]

Even not doing pasta, making fused quickwire for a hundred hsc and a hundred ai limiters and 3+ nodes are gone

[bleak coral]

I could see it though, depending on what you choose radio control units & super computers both use HSC which use copper, and they're used in a lot more now

[vast jungle]

you can easily make Quickwire from Caterium

[wind spade]

good thing we have more than 3 nodes 🤷‍♂️

[bleak coral]

plus nuke pasta's limiter is copper

[vast jungle]

that too

[topaz hedge]

But they're still gone :3

[vast jungle]

nuclear pasta is something completely "optional"... you don't need it for anything except the elevator

even Rocky Desert and Northern forest together should easily make 5000 copper ingots per minute

[topaz hedge]

It just gets used up faster than you think it does. And that's two whole biomes of copper Henning xD

Really though unless you're doing crazy stuff.. your point is valid

[wind spade]

max alclad uses ~1740 copper, add 11k for max quickwire and you're still left with ~16k worth of copper, which is more than enough for anything you could do with it

(and that's ore, not ingots)

[topaz hedge]

looked at pure copper refineries for pasta welp that's 9600 of that ore..

[vast jungle]

I will stay with Copper Alloy to keep my sanity 😉

[wind spade]

did you substract any that's included in the quickwire?

[topaz hedge]

I've completely cleaned the copper out from Rocky... Swamp, and most of it in north forest. The only untouched nodes I have left are grasslands

Dunes is gone too lol

[wind spade]

seems it's around 1/3rd of the copper that goes to quickwire, so the pasta setup would use only like 6.5k ore, instead of almost 10k

(and also depends on which recipes you pick for e.g. computers, that can save on copper as well)

[topaz hedge]

Max pasta is about 60 a min, and that's using all the copper for powder

[vast jungle]

I think if I ever need more copper, I will just visit the Dune desert for the first time... looks like Copper Alloy paradise 😉

[topaz hedge]

With caterium circuitboards, crystal computers, and no fused quickwire

[wind spade]

the thing is, why would you want to automate pasta long-term? 😛

[bleak coral]

points

[topaz hedge]

Thankfully you only need 120 rcus a min

Because it looks cool

[bleak coral]

that's the main for endgame is doing points

once you're making the final elevator parts there's no practicality to any of it, it's points or because you want to

[topaz hedge]

Assembly directors are for point records.. pasta is for tasty shiny pretty pasta

[wind spade]

isn't the rocket thingy way better in points?

[topaz hedge]

It is, but it cost more and you hit nitrogen cap so you can't make as many

[bleak coral]

I thought nuke pasta came up cause of resource issues with the others

[wind spade]

will need to implement sink points to actually see the most resource efficient way to produce sink points

[topaz hedge]

That would be interesting indeed!

[bleak coral]

that'll be nice, now that it isn't just as simple as "max top thing, then the rest is basically extra"

cause like there's 3 things that are good and they all have resource issues and steal from eachother

[topaz hedge]

Right now, we just guess based on how many of x vs y can I make and multiply the points to see what's worth more

[wind spade]

I basically have it ready... in API v2, which needs to be implemented in the tools, which means big rewrite of some internal stuff, which takes tons of time ...

[topaz hedge]

This has your requested power feature in it too?

[wind spade]

yeah

but same story 😦

[topaz hedge]

D:

[wind spade]

the rewrite is in the works, but no idea how long it'll take

[stable basin]

Does someone have all the Blueprints from https://satisfactory.tash.fyi/ ? I can't connect to the side.

[wind spade]

seems like the author also left the server, so he may have abandoned the project

[topaz hedge]

Don't you ever leave us greenie. plz

[bleak coral]

if it's been neglected the blueprints may not even be valuable anymore

[wind spade]

has left the server

[topaz hedge]

as far as the rewrite though, you're building code factories.. se we can build our factories.. it's a cycle

....Nnnnooooo

[stable basin]

In case someone downloaded all blueprints of the side, I would appreciate it if you could send them to me over pm :)

[wind spade]

I think last time I checked they have been mostly for U2 and not very helpful. Also they were just images, not blueprints importable to the game in any way

[stable basin]

Yeah I know that they were only images, I used some of them but I didn't know that they where for U2, but thanks anyways.

[wind spade]

I think it's better to just use updated online tools to generate blueprints of your choice instead 😉

[stable basin]

Yeah but I'm not that good with load balancers and I used these from the side, I didn't find them anywhere else

[wind spade]

that's because load balancers are not too useful in a game where production is fixed 😉

and for feeding machines, people usually just do manifolds