#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 508 of 1

frosty owl
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Just add "he/him" to your nickname, like many do 🤷‍♂️

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What are your ideas for a main bus?
Do you know some way to design one that is easy to expand? ^^
(I have 4 foundations wide and 3 walls high space, currently using it for 4 lines of 4 stackable poles, so 16 lines total. Still go enough space to attach lifts to the splitters/mergers on the lines and move them around easily)

quaint ridge
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my main bus loop on itself

vast jungle
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my main bus is a double rail-line, connecting all factories together 😉

quaint ridge
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and it has all the items I produce

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(almost all)

wind spade
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main bus 🤢

vast jungle
wind spade
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those are two different things but ok

final spoke
sand garnet
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dont play factorio inside satisfactory

wooden pond
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gonna screw you over hard in the long run

wind spade
# final spoke what's wrong with a main bus? <:dad:802277308228435968>

everything. Tons of belts for nothing, hard to keep track how many resources you have remaining on the bus, eats fps, directly connecting machines is way better, intermediate products don't get reused as much as in Factorio, production and consumption is stable, so no need to build main bus

wooden pond
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You will be regularly using 1 or 4 belts worth of items, unless you plan the bus to be huge AF your gonna end up with a mess, and what greeny said

final spoke
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Oh wait, a main bus for belts? I missed a comment 😄
Thought about a main bus for trains

wind spade
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main bus for trains isn't even a thing 🤔

wooden pond
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why a main bus for trains lol, you minimum need 1 track, 2 if you want the trains coming back not on the same track

wooden pond
wind spade
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similar concept with trains is called "main track" 😉

wooden pond
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Trains>belts>trucks by a looong way for long distance transportation

final spoke
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bus/track - forgive my terminology, not a native speaker
nonetheless - the idea is to have a "hub" that allows you to have all the stations together and multiple tracks that go to different locations

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that's why I was wondering what's wrong with that

wooden pond
wind spade
wooden pond
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then once the train has emptied/filled up it goes to the 2nd track back

wind spade
wooden pond
wind spade
wooden pond
final spoke
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having a small circuit closer to base and pairs of tracks that go to target destinations seems more efficient imho

wooden pond
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it's efficient in time

wooden pond
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but i really don't like them lol

final spoke
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A <-> B - yeah, agreed

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But if you only want to have a pair of tracks for going in/out of the base then that gets complicated

wooden pond
wind spade
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no loops, bi-directional trains plz

wooden pond
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for A-B trains, not 1 big main track

wind spade
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even for that

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takes less space

wooden pond
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yeah but meh

wind spade
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and makes travel times faster

true merlin
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is there a way to get 4items/min with mk1 conveyors ?

wooden pond
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You got to do a lot of math

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split the input into 4/min

wind spade
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yeah, better do a manifold

true merlin
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hmm, maybe not worth it just to gain 2screw/min

wind spade
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how do you gain extra screws by balancing?

true merlin
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i'm using 72/min or something like that

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and i produce 80, so ..

wind spade
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manifold it then 🙂

wooden pond
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it just backs up and doesn't use the items, putting in 60/min into a machine that uses 5 wont use the rest 55

stark lichen
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Main Bus

HighResScreenshot20210223-082446.png
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I use a main bus in my factories. It just doesn't continue forever. It starts at vehicle imports, passes through dedicated factories, passes through vehicle exports, and ends at a mall.

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I don't keep all my raw resources on the bus. Most raw resource belts enter a dedicated factory and are replaced by the products outbound. I do keep a single overflow belt for each type of ingot for convenience (space elevator parts mostly).

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I use this design to help with organization and vehicle synergy (better to have the fuel go to one truck hub). The concept would be better if there was an alternate limited resource node mode.

oblique hollow
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so... Factorio mode

stark lichen
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yep

oblique hollow
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or do you mean limited as in: there arent as many nodes

stark lichen
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Each node has limited resources. The total amount of nodes could remain the same.

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Some randomization of location would be cool.

oblique hollow
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that difference is exactly the reason why Busses dont work as great in normal gameplay

stark lichen
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I regret nothing!

oblique hollow
stark lichen
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I just wanted to use trucks and I wanted to be more efficient at being inefficient.

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I didn't want tiny 2 car trains going in different directions either.

deep root
# wind spade no loops, bi-directional trains plz

What if my friends and I wanted to make products in the middle and train them to the outside. The outside track goes all the way around the map picking up and dropping off resources to the stations that need the products. The middle trains pick up and drop off what is needed and made. The outer train also drops off everything not used at a main storage facility... Would you use loops at the outer train stations so the inner trains can pick up and drop off at the same stations as the outer train?

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Ignore the fact that trains can't smart sort yet

wind spade
deep root
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My idea is one central storage with many factories making products. Overflow products are brought to central storage by one main train

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But the central storage is in the outside of the map, so the ring around would have the train(s) carrying resources to each factory and also to storage

oblique hollow
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Anyone feel free to check this out

frosty owl
wind spade
frosty owl
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I can imagine jacelul

wind spade
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or just because "it worked in factorio, so it must work the same in factorio 3d"

frosty owl
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I'll post a screen later, I think we can agree it makes sense for how I set things up

tame bone
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sorry if this is the wrong channel. but i am starting my second playthrough of this, this time making my factories actually efficient. i was wondering, is it better for the iron to be smelted, then automatically made into the iron plates/rods and stored for other factories to use them, or just transport the smelted iron to the separate factories to make the rods/plates if they need them?

frosty owl
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Transporting the least amount of items is what makes the most sense to me, so I usually transport the "highest tier" items

tame bone
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so you would make the rods and plates and then send em off

frosty owl
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You would have to send less items/min then if you sent the ore, so yes ^^

wind spade
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other option is to make everything where it's needed instead of transporting it around 😉

topaz hedge
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thankyou so much mcgalleon

wind spade
frosty owl
wind spade
frosty owl
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Bruh... disappointed_snutt

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But to answer your question @wind spade , each set of unpackaging packagers are manifolded and their output passes through a "checking splitter". The input of that should be 600/min which can be checked by looking at the MK4 and MK2 lines coming out of the smart splitter (priority to mk4 as it's easier to see if mk2 is lacking items). Then the containers are merged back again and fed to the packing packagers ofc

rough jewel
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It would be great if you can build boards... Just boards with text you can write done on it, and the text would be visible without interaction.

vast jungle
oblique hollow
frosty owl
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Because yes, there are already posts about signs ^^

rough jewel
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I am building base and would be happy to remember tomorrow, what is this part of base, how much does it produce and consume. 🙂

rough jewel
wind spade
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(also @oblique hollow ^ )

vast jungle
# rough jewel thanks for hope 🙂

the devs know there are LOTS of "quality of life" things that could be done, but at the moment the new content, the new engine updates and bugs are more important

oblique hollow
rough jewel
oblique hollow
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but CSS can evaluate this save however they want

wind spade
frosty owl
wind spade
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if it produces the correct amount of items in the end, there may be some other issue 🤷‍♂️

oblique hollow
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you would only have to monetarily empty the containers and disconnect their output

wind spade
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(e.g. machines being slightly faster than they should)

oblique hollow
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it is an actual reduction of input

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and if the input is below demand, you wont get the expected number of items after a certain time

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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it should be something around 5% loss

frosty owl
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I just found that the output of the unpack would get clogged up (thus leading to the packaging starving in the long run), but I haven't tested as long and in detail as the guy above ^^

wicked tinsel
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maybe the issue is that packagers need two containers for whatever reason, so they can miss the schedule if items arrive in bad order

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like at the end of large manifold

oblique hollow
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mmmmm no, unlikely

frosty owl
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Okay...
Just because I like meming about balancing Vs manifold, this does NOT mean I don't know how to set up a manifold correctly :snuttstach_stare:

oblique hollow
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go ahead and load the save yourself. see if you can find out whats going on

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Its freely available for everyone on that post

wind spade
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I'd like to but don't really have time to install the game now 😦

wicked tinsel
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my guess is that splashing of water in the pipe causes the pressure on the input side when wave goes toward it

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and that limits the input due to pipe max flow rate 🤔

oblique hollow
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you cant even solve this by putting valves on every output

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ive tried that

wicked tinsel
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you can kinda see the wave going both sides on the double connected manifold

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this pipe in the middle should be passive, but it can get +- 20 flow randomly

unknown.png
oblique hollow
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the double feed manifold is actually the only one without that issue

wicked tinsel
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ye, but it helps visualize the problem

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if that 20 flow was pressed against the input, you would be pulling only 280

oblique hollow
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thats why i read the input pipe only

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it says 300 and stays 300

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if it would lose 20 because of backflow, then i wouldnt read 300 anymore

wicked tinsel
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doesnt it drop like this for you?

unknown.png
oblique hollow
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nope. not at all

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also, i think the other side compensates that

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just check the machines

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if one of them runs low, theres a problem

wicked tinsel
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for the single sided one

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it shows only 570 for me

unknown.png
oblique hollow
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wait a few seconds

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pipe ui takes time to catch up

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its a normal thing

wicked tinsel
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ye i mean, it stays like this for a while

oblique hollow
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it wont be like that afterwards

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this always happens when you load fresh into a save

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im not sure if it actually drops or if the UI window just.... has a moment

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because i KNOW its not actually below 300 / 600

wicked tinsel
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dunno, it seem to consistently stay bellow 590 hm

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i had added some more water to it but it doesnt actually change anything either

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and indeed some packagers at the end are starved

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only enough, the last one is full, its the two before it that are empty

oblique hollow
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you could try to add even more water

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i did the same thing with every setup: fill them to the brim then wait

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and sure enough, they all dropped slowly

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even though input never fell below 300 / 600

wicked tinsel
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hm

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yeah, filling even more evened out at 600 indeed

oblique hollow
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i wouldnt be looking into this if it actually was some rare problem that can be resolved with "good luck and faith"
Ive had multiple people report this now

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and its always the single feed manifolds

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of course, this is all very dynamic stuff, so i cant ensure that everyone will see the same things as you now

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i have 0 control beyond what i measured and built. same for Vencam, he built this entire save after all

wicked tinsel
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ye i mean, i think my setup also experiences this actually

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there were some packagers in my fuel loop that were sometimes yellow, but i couldnt bother to investigate

oblique hollow
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it wouldnt surprise me if they were affected by this too

wicked tinsel
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to be honest, its bit weird to me that those machines dont aggressively empty the pipes either hmm

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maybe i was under wrong impression how this system works

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like why some of those are nearly empty constantly

unknown.png
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while others are 50 full

vagrant terrace
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so do yall recomend I start over since ive played like 6 hours and get the stuff?

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or just rebuild

oblique hollow
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6 hours? dosnt seem like a whole lot could have been built in that time

vagrant terrace
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yeah im just gunna rebuild shit

oblique hollow
# wicked tinsel while others are 50 full

usually it acts like a belt manifold: after one machine is full, then it fills the next. it also doesnt just completely drain the line, but does 1/2 or 1/4, etc, but pipes are very volatile

wicked tinsel
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i guess there is some hidden flow priority on the junctions

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front and end machines seem to be filling while middle ones starve

oblique hollow
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its actually a "even divide rule"

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it tries to split 1/2, if you use just 2 outputs

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if the machine is full, it cant input any more, of course, just as with belts

wicked tinsel
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that what it should do but

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here, the right one is 50 while left one is starved

unknown.png
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they share junction

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so it doesnt split it evenly clearly

oblique hollow
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oh, i can help with that actually

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look closely: one is mk 1, the other mk 2

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mk 2 actually have a "higher priority", so to speak

wicked tinsel
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makes sense

oblique hollow
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it simply affects the input ratio a lot

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try turning that mk 2 into a mk 1

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that should resolve it

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the ratio should be: 1/3 to 2/3

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with a mk 1 and a mk 2

wicked tinsel
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yeah that did the trick indeed

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now both are starved 😄

oblique hollow
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perfect 🥲

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this is why i tell people to be careful with mixing pipe mks and to make sure that, when they use valves, to actually limit with the valve

wicked tinsel
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does this behave same way if you rebuild this as a tree instead of manifold?

oblique hollow
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you mean as a kind of balancer?

wicked tinsel
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yeah

oblique hollow
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i think since that counts as "center feeding", it reduces the issue

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downside is of course this takes WAY more space

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ruins the neatness of pipes

frosty owl
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Generally, here's what I think helps not having issues:
-Avoiding using max flow in any pipe (ofc)
-Using buffers to clear or fill manifolded pipes as soon as possible (clearing the outputs and filling the inputs)
-Avoiding small pipe segments (especially close to junctions) as the more buffering in the pipe, the more stable the flow is
Comments, corrections or additions? @wicked tinsel @oblique hollow

wicked tinsel
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sounds right

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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yeah, seems alright.
also avoiding feeding from just one end

wicked tinsel
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feeding from two ends essentially equals to avoiding max flow 🤔

frosty owl
wicked tinsel
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you got two 600 pipes each doing 300 fluid inside

oblique hollow
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basically

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ye

frosty owl
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Also doubles the fill speed

oblique hollow
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the only time max flow is not an issue is if you transport it from one building or so. or with a VERY low number of junctions

wicked tinsel
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to be honest, im not quite sure how pipes resolution algorithm works here

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it doesnt look like flow network variant, is it like factorio where it tries to balance individual components?

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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apparently it is a mix of all sorts of things: some bernoulli, navier-stokes perhaps, blah blah

frosty owl
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I noticed it pretty much hates any big delta (variation in fluid amount or fluid speed)

oblique hollow
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belts hate big delta too

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thats why mk 5 are only like 99% efficient. they have a loss of about 6 items/min

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and thats absolute

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i did an entire test rig to verify that

frosty owl
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How do you verify the loss?
BTW I made a small testing area for that: mk5 splits into mk4, MK3 and MK1 with overflow on mk1
MK1 should be filled by half exactly, yet after a while... It was full :man_facepalming:

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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they already suffer at mk 1

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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and a single mk 1 belt had losses

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all others were full

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then i simply timed that belt for 10 seconds and counted the items coming out

frosty owl
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... You should try out my test too. I really dunno what to think about the MK1 getting full. Could be belt issue or smart splitter issue...

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I mean, since it's FULL, it should actually BACK UP

oblique hollow
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i tested with both smart splitter and normal

wind spade
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you should also avoid counting items on a belt and rather count it using a container

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not sure if it's still the case now, but I know like a half year back there was somebody who did big research and came to a conclusion that items on a belt don't always represent their current location

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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i have a rather high trust in mk 1 belts, dare i say

wind spade
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yeah just saying that container is most likely the only 100% reliable source of truth

frosty owl
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How do you know any fluctuation isn't due to mergers or splitters holding or releasing items? thinking_helmet

oblique hollow
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the irregularity makes no sense. it should divide evenly if they all hold back

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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the belts regularily receive slight optimizations too. i could just go back to the test rig and have that one mk 1 belt go into a container i guess

frosty owl
oblique hollow
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im waiting until U4 until i make tests now though.

frosty owl
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Fair

topaz hedge
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@oblique hollow I may or may not have had the issue on double feed manifolds. I can't remember but I'm pretty sure I have.

oblique hollow
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its really hard to say at this point what exactly causes / gets affected by this issue, but thanks for telling

topaz hedge
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If I did, it was a row of 20 or 40 something manifold

oblique hollow
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that may have been standard manifold startup time. did you prefill the machines?

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because the only way to verify that its the same issue is to fill all machines up 100% and then wait 30 minutes.
if some start to starve, then i believe that it could be the same issue

topaz hedge
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no, but it was a turbofuel setup and the issue was getting turbofuel out to the fuel gens, It'd had been running for quite a while before I got close enough to full load for it to die

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So yeah, they were full/prefilled

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pipe issues are the plauge and as much as I hope for a cure.. the only thing we can do is try to build with them in mind. The valve slamming issue was definitely.. an interesting one.. and something I'd do if I'm bored.. glad I didn't lol

oblique hollow
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it really is weird

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also the "climbing pipes"

frosty owl
keen patio
torpid robin
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I used mk2 for everything and then made sure I didn’t go over 500 in any pipe .

keen patio
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crap 😭

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I did test a long line of 600 oil into 2 huge buffers after maybe 400m of travel. It got up to 600 flow rate no problem .. shrug

torpid robin
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It’s when you start to do heaps of splits off of it

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So maybe run your long 600 one . Then split in 2 to be 300 in mk2 pipes . Then manifold it

bleak coral
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yeah I'm worried about my turbofuel setup when U4 hits, though I could easily retrofit it to be 300 per pipe instead of 600 and then split

ashen quest
bleak coral
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I wonder if I've got a good picture

torpid robin
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Why are you worried

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Nothing gets changed for turbo fuel

bleak coral
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my turbofuel setup is for a full 600 pipe, and it fills a full 600 pipe for a bit before splitting in two

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so I'm worried the bug will starve some gens

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but basically I've already split the refineries making turbofuel in two for aesthetic reasons, so I should be able to just not join the two sections in the first place and fix it

torpid robin
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I think you will probs be fine if you do the split before the manifolds

bleak coral
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yeah the split happens before any generators get fed

topaz hedge
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It's gonna be exciting for us for sure lol

frosty owl
topaz hedge
wind spade
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yeah, maximise with input doesn't work properly (yet)

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just put in 1920 copper ore instead 😛

topaz hedge
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Okaies, This is actually the first time I thought about doing that lol

wind spade
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it's one of the first fixes planned after the big engine update I'm working on

topaz hedge
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That works too :p workin on my super hub train factory thing for U4 xD and seeing what I can do with small satellite factories around clusters of nodes xD Still havent decided if it's better to move wire, or copper ingots though >.>

wind spade
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have you noticed the (relatively) new feature, where you can double-click a node on the graph to "hide" it?

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that may help with visual clutter as well

topaz hedge
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Yeah, I was kind of wondering if that was always there or if it was new :3 it's nice though

wind spade
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it's 12 days old 😉

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it doesn't hide it completely, but should help in most cases

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(I didn't want to hide it completely because then numbers wouldn't match and it would also be hard to bring the hidden nodes back)

torpid robin
wicked tinsel
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btw, remember how i said it would be nice to be able to blow up some of the random rocks that litter the map?

unknown.png
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jace stream right now

vast jungle
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yes, everyone has this reaction... but the cons still outweight the pros, so it will most likely never happen

magic shadow
wicked tinsel
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pros as in not having the random rock clipping through your factory whenever you want to build near ground?

sand garnet
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needing to overhaul the system for how the map is built probably doesnt help

wicked tinsel
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i doubt there is a hole in the ground mesh bellow those rocks too

wind spade
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people need to plan the factory around the surroundings, not build the factory through the rock and then complain about it

sand garnet
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those that dont want to deal with that can use foundations

craggy root
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Yeah

wicked tinsel
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there is a major difference between dealing with terrain and dealing with small unremovable land features like those white rocks

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sure you can build everything above them but where is the fun in that

wind spade
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if the rock had a grass texture, it would be the same, but would count as terrain?

sand epoch
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lol

wicked tinsel
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are there any places where land randomly expands 10 meters up in the middle of otherwise flat areas

median thunder
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yeah I find that annoying

wind spade
wicked tinsel
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good thing you can rent a company to flatten it for you 👍

wind spade
sand epoch
median thunder
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you could also build around that rock

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the small rocks in the terrain are close to the ground

wicked tinsel
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my complain is that a lot of places you cant build near ground level since random rocks profound from it

unknown.png
wind spade
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that's part of the challenge 🤷‍♂️

wicked tinsel
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sure, +4 or +8 foundations can fill those but where is the challenge here

sand garnet
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it sounds like you just want a perfectly flat world lmao

sand epoch
wicked tinsel
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how had you even arrived at that conclusion is beyond me

median thunder
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there's two solutions to this, one is to design a factory around the rock which can be annoying, and the other is to build it up 15 meters which is boring

sand garnet
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There's plenty of space around the rocks etc

sand garnet
wicked tinsel
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here is a nice mostly flat zone

unknown.png
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it would be a shame if someone threw a boulder in the middle of it

unknown.png
sand garnet
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right, so what's the issue then? plenty of space as you can see

sand epoch
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lol, i use ground for the 🍝

wind spade
deep root
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Looks like you solved your own problem...

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I do build at ground level. I also find interesting ways to hide rocks that would otherwise protrude from my foundations

wicked tinsel
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well, i did it like this

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but then there are also stuff like those super high flower stalks near crater lakes that simply cant be removed or hidden properly

deep root
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Sure they can

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Make a box around them so they seem like the supports for your factory for above

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Just one way of doing it

oblique hollow
deep root
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Real talk... Literally anyplace in the world has places like that

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The ocean even has it just opposite, it goes down

oblique hollow
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The amount of flat land in satis is actually sorta a favor from the devs

deep root
oblique hollow
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If the grass hill starter area actually had more hills, then it would be more realistic

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Not to mention there are literal roads, at times

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Seems like somebody has been here before

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And just flattened the area in places

deep root
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All the artifacts placed around

sand garnet
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those roads could just be elephant paths though

deep root
sand garnet
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the artifacts made them!

oblique hollow
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What elephants? The toothpick legged space potatos?

deep root
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Who knows what the cycle of life was or is on the planet

oblique hollow
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Giant freaking rib cages

sand garnet
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balloon animals

oblique hollow
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Pokémon

sand garnet
oblique hollow
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Hahaha

sand garnet
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the response!

deep root
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Omg that's awesome

oblique hollow
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Now the question is who is Emil

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Of the Devs

deep root
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I imagined in my head the sound of letting the air out of a balloon while pulling the spout tight to make the high pitched sound

oblique hollow
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Pheeeeeee

sand garnet
deep root
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Alternate noise is a whoopie cushion

sand garnet
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from the CSS website

frosty owl
sand garnet
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then the orange is a lie

dusky nebula
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hmmm. 8 coal gens @ %250= 1500 mw

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6 250% fuel gens= 2,250 mw

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total= 3750 mw

dull bolt
#

Learn by mistakes... or what is it called... I've cut a cable with scissors once... Wasnt the smartest... buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I wasnt very old at that point... The good thing I used insulated scissors... else I'd probably be ded ;))

dusky nebula
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huh. glad this doesnt happen to the pioneer

dull bolt
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Hehe 😄

sand garnet
dusky nebula
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wdym?

sand garnet
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250% OC is not 250% capacity

dusky nebula
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i did loads of math around that number

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dont tell me its wrong

sand garnet
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you're using the wrong math

dusky nebula
#

wdym?

lyric bloom
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250% OC = ~202% output

sand garnet
#

the game handles overclocking differently

dusky nebula
sand garnet
lyric bloom
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generators (coal and fuel) don't scale output linearly with overclocking, unlike production buildings

dusky nebula
#

crap. ima break a fuse

lyric bloom
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the good news is that you're not using 250% the inputs... so just make more

dusky nebula
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thats my power plant tonight

#

right

sand garnet
#

the problem is the generator UI lies to its players

#

the UI will say the capacity is 250% of normal capacity for that generator

#

but in reality that is wrong

lyric bloom
#

oc'ed generators don't become less efficient - still same rate of coal and water per MW produced. so you're only consuming 202% resources, not 250%.

#

just make moar

dusky nebula
#

k

sand garnet
#

lets hope they fix the UI showing the wrong number soon

dusky nebula
#

gtg

lyric bloom
#

planning with gens is easier if just left at 100% clock. takes a little more space, but cleaner math.

sand garnet
#

a good starter setup is the 3 water extractors > 8 coal gens setup

#

it provides 600MW per setup

lyric bloom
#

and at 15 coal/min, that's 8 * 15 = 120, so that scales super nicely with miner output and belt speed

dusky nebula
#

nice

#

im planning a large scale coal plant with like 60 coal gens

#

ill also be using this:

keen patio
deep root
#

Cost is subtracted

hardy patrol
keen patio
#

So it should produce (minus costs) ~19k mw

#

I was like.. 16.7k mw sounds super low >.>

deep root
#

Ahhhhh! I didn't watch it. I used an old reddit post to get an idea on how to build mine, but used my own design

keen patio
#

Note; its ALSO old and references uses refineries.

#

but its the only layout post Ive seen that looks good.

deep root
#

I'm looking for the post I used

deep root
#

This is what I used to get an idea, then made my power plant how I wanted it

#

Used it mainly for math

keen patio
deep root
keen patio
#

rgr

deep root
#

I use tools now for easier math, friends and I build factories based on the math and our own layout

keen patio
#

@deep root if I may suggest; if you build for 900 oil, the math//structure count is much nicer.,

deep root
keen patio
#

I mean; instead of wanting 13.33 buildings, its an even 40 per phase.

#

with no clock changes needed.

deep root
#

Hmmmm, I'll keep that in mind

keen patio
#

*in all but the turbofuel refineries, which are still slightly off I think

#

but the Diluted Fuel loop is cleaner.

deep root
#

I liked the size of the power grid I built

#

148 generators

#

I was going to try a build with overclocking the power gens, cutting what I need in half, but the shard requirements are so high lol

keen patio
#

Just finished watching the video from Kibitz... I think the math has changed, or his clocking math was wrong.. because 300 oil makes more turbofuel than he says.. shrug

deep root
#

It's 666.66 iirc

#

Maybe it's 666.67

keen patio
#

Correct, but he says something like 501.6

#

and I was like.. wait what

deep root
#

Alright. I'm trying to plan out some trains. I know the formula to determine the per minute transport of trains. Would it be bad to assume that 2 trains will take the same amount of time given the same amount of track?

wind spade
keen patio
#

.>

oblique hollow
#

A lot of them are outdated now.

vast jungle
#

which is quite normal for a Early Access game

#

e.g. don't trust any non-recent video about how to rotate your foundations and get the same height... the hitboxes have changed over time

oblique hollow
#

Which is why i keep my guides constantly up to date and revise them

vast jungle
#

but that doesn't change the fact that old videos can be entertaining and inspiring to watch

wind spade
grim crane
#

i calculated how many stuff i need to activated my nuclear plant. And heee i need 5 Trains with 10 Waggons of water

#

And my Train and Bell infratructure is more spaghettie then italia produced in the hole histotry

wind spade
#

That's why you build nuclear near water

versed violet
burnt hill
#

Are trains worth it? or should I say, are they more efficient than mk.5 conveyors? Sure they may look more aesthetically pleasing transporting rss from one place to another, but im just trying to think of a situation where I would be better off building a railway network over conveyors.

wind spade
versed violet
grim crane
#

No my Save Game starts crashing

burnt hill
#

what is the rss/min equivalent of 1 freight car?

wind spade
versed violet
#

and also on item stack size

wind spade
#

also usually people use "ipm" or "items/min", "rss" I never heard before

burnt hill
#

rss = resources

wind spade
#

yeah, it's kinda confusing tho

burnt hill
#

habit from other games i guess 😛

wind spade
versed violet
#

basic simulation - assuming mk4 belts, it will take 24*100 items divided by 2x480 minutes to empty station from single wagon. => 24000 / (2x480) = 2,5 minutes

wind spade
#

you also need to take loading time into consideration

versed violet
#

with mk5 belts you are looking at roundtrips of 1m or multiple trains

versed violet
#

In summary - as long as you have a train passing the station every minute, you can assume it to have capacity of two mk5 belts.

wind spade
#

because on the other side you'll get less due to loading times

deep root
versed violet
# wind spade because on the other side you'll get less due to loading times

Actually no. Loading time is included in ful circle time. You get a delay between item getting into first station and reappearing at second station (same you would get by just conveyor-belting it).
In detail:
Items arrive into first freight and buffer up in the station. Train comes and picks up to 24 slots.
Trains goes to destination station. Drops 24 slots, items are moved out at conveyor speed.
Now, as long as the train makes a full trip faster than belts can input full 24 stacks, the target station will always have items in it and will work at full belt speed.
The system is auto balancing, as items that don't fit in target station drive back and are dropped in at next roundtrip.

wind spade
sturdy flicker
#

Does ImKbitiz's math still hold that factory carts are the most efficient?

versed violet
wind spade
#

(or is it 25 seconds?)

#

anyway, during that time, you won't get any input, so you're limiting the output

#

so it's better to do e.g. only one belt into each platform, but before the platform you put a storage container and connect both it's outputs to the platform (same thing on the other side)

#

essentially adding a buffer to be able to use the full belt

versed violet
#

Truck stations do not have the pause when loading ?

wind spade
#

don't think so. But also automated trucks kinda suck, so I wouldn't suggest getting them

deep root
#

Why not use double input / output for both stations though?

versed violet
#

They mostly work. might be faster than train on mk5 belts.

wind spade
deep root
#

Why not?

wind spade
#

I just explained it 😄

deep root
#

Yes I know trains stop the input / output

wind spade
#

so if you put two full mk5 belts, on the other side you won't get two full mk5 belts, you would get less (based on how often a train comes)

#

if for example the train comes every minute, on the other side you'll get 2x325 items/min instead of 2x780

deep root
#

But if you input 960 with belts, and transport MORE with the train it will still be 960 in and out

wind spade
deep root
#

2 mk4 is 960 input

wind spade
#

and you won't be able to transport more in any way

#

ah, alright then

deep root
#

If I input 960 and my train transports 2000, it will always transport the 960 and the output will be 960 on the other end

wind spade
#

example, train comes every minute, input is two full mk4 belts
platform is full
train comes, starts loading, platform is empty for 25 seconds
train leaves, platform starts loading for remaining 35 seconds (560 items)
train comes, starts loading, loads 560 items (platform is again empty for 25 seconds)
train leaves, platform starts loading for remaining 35 seconds (560 items)
... and repeat

see? every minute a train leaves with only 560 items even though the input can do up to 960

#

and this works for any numbers you put in, you can't transport more than you have and you have less than full belts because of the loading time blockage

#

the less often a train comes, the more resources you can transport, but you can never get max belts

burnt hill
#

so in summary, just use mk.5 belts and an array of smart splitters if using multiple items 🙂

wind spade
#

if using multiple items, don't ever put them on a single belt or in a single platform. always have them separate

deep root
#

I see what you mean now

versed violet
wind spade
#

basically to be safe, just put max one belt into each platform (but with the buffer I mentioned above) to get 100% throughput from a train

wind spade
# versed violet Why?

there's a lot of issues coming out of mixed belts, stuff can get stuck because you overproduce/underproduce an item, you need to sink overflows everywhere (and that reduces the amount of items that make it to the target location). It saves a lot of headache when you keep them separate

deep root
#

But if the train takes longer than 1 min of travel then you will transport the full 960...

versed violet
wind spade
#

for automated transport, you still need to overflow everything and it may result in sinking items you didn't want to sink

wind spade
deep root
#

Train takes 1:25 to travel from station to station (not round trip) that means 1 min of resources are in the storage

wind spade
#

same example but with two minutes:
platform is full
train comes, starts loading, platform is empty for 25 seconds
train leaves, platform starts loading for remaining 95 seconds (1520 items)
train comes, starts loading, loads 1520 items (platform is again empty for 25 seconds)
train leaves, platform starts loading for remaining 95 seconds (1520 items)
... and repeat

so it transports 1520/2 mins instead of 1920/2 mins

#

basically you'll always have 25 seconds in which the belts won't be working because station is blocked

versed violet
#

Do nog inserters work with station? [joke]

#

Trains have one advantage over belt systems/trucks.
Move 16 meters to the left. add another wagon/station segment. Capacity doubled.

wind spade
#

well not doubled, but increased

jade minnow
#

This is why I didn't start any train stations yet. This shit is so complicated to calculate

wind spade
#

well you don't need to calculate 🤷‍♂️ just put a few extra cars and it'll work nicely

jade minnow
#

Every car needs another station, too doenst it? That's a waste of power to use them. ADA said I have to be efficient

wind spade
#

no, it just needs a platform

deep root
#

Just watch your train to make sure it fully empties the container when it picks up, if it doesn't add more

wind spade
#

and iirc they only use power when loading the train

#

if you want to not waste power, then trains aren't for you anyway, as you can just build 500 belts that don't take any power

jade minnow
#

Yeah that's what I meant. Not stations

jade minnow
wind spade
#

still, it's just 20 MW over 25 seconds, not something you'd care about

jade minnow
#

50 MW 😦

wind spade
#

or that

#

but still nothing compared to other stuff you usually have at that point

jade minnow
#

For each train. Having excess platforms over the whole map can drain much power in the end

#

Okay yeah that's true

wind spade
#

one nuclear power plant makes 2500 MW, that can power A LOT of trains and platforms

jade minnow
#

One manufacturer already takes 55 MW lul

#

Okay gonna go build my first choo track after this HD hunt

versed violet
#

Trains are kinda fun.

dusky nebula
#

ima need so much power....

waxen dirge
#

ya so y yall do math for this game

#

i just hook up from the main line and be like that should work

dusky nebula
#

no no no nono nooooooo

#

like be producing more

#

like 300,000 mws more

dusky dust
#

It's nice being able to post images in here, but I'd love to not see memey stuff like that constantly.

#

Maybe let's not, before a mod decides to turn off images in here, too? :)

dusky nebula
#

ye

#

someone auta edit that so the cutters are the build gun and a helmit over his face

sand epoch
versed violet
#

What is the build gun distance limit, eg how far from yourself can you build?

wintry aurora
#

Pretty far, 200m I think, maybe more.

jade minnow
#

pretty much exactly 100 m

#

just tested it 😛

versed violet
wintry aurora
#

Seems like it's further than that.

sand epoch
#

100 sounds about right.. (going from memory when reusing foundations in the air)

versed violet
#

20-24ish walkway pieces, would make 100

sand epoch
#

what is a walking piece? o0

versed violet
#

screnshout incoming in a moment

wintry aurora
#

The walkway sections. You can get them on the FICSIT AWSOME shop I believe.

#

Screenshout, ok.

sand epoch
#

ah. those. ok

versed violet
wintry aurora
#

Using the angled sections doesn't count.

iron prairie
#

So, a bit of useless math: if I did things right, the maximum sustainable power production is actually 1.52 TW, with a net production of 1.39 TW after accounting for the cost of producing the materials.

topaz hedge
#

So how much waste a miunte is that at fullload?

#

or... after U4 without a nuclear reqork

iron prairie
#

472.5 units of nuclear waste each minute, the same as every power scheme which maxes power production (and assumes you manage 100% load).

sand garnet
#

that is not for 1 reactor

topaz hedge
#

are you sure silly?

iron prairie
#

A few additional assumptions involved: all the oil/coal/sulfur/uranium nodes are maxed, whereas all the other ores are obtained via T3 miners on pure nodes overclocked to 163%. Polymer resin is disposed of via seven AWESOME sinks.

topaz hedge
#

I thought each reactor produces like 5 waste a min

iron prairie
#

This is not for one reactor.

#

These are calculations for maxing out every oil, coal, sulfur, and uranium node, devoted to nothing but power production.

topaz hedge
#

so at fulload wouldn't it be ~2300 waste min?

sand garnet
#

not like you're ever getting to use all that power though lol

#

although with the power changes.. hooray for the power priority switch they refused to talk about but obviously exists

iron prairie
#

... May have messed up how much waste/min gets used. I accidentally used 94.5 rather than 472.5 for the number of nuke plants.

topaz hedge
#

nah, I'm pretty sure the game dies somewhere around 100GW consumption

versed violet
iron prairie
#

I think where the wiki went wrong is by using a nuclear fuel rod production chain utilizing more rubber, plastic, or coal than is strictly necessary, where I tried my best to use alts minimizing the use of oil/coal.

topaz hedge
#

I'm not exactly sure, but after using around 50GW parts of my world were almost unplayable

sand garnet
topaz hedge
#

I can load up one mod and use all that power too, @versed violet

#

I don't think kedpler ever said how much power he used, and I'm not sure what amilea uses for her max tm build, but whatever they used is probably pretty close to the realistic limit of power consumption before the game is unplayable

iron prairie
#

(and yes, it is ~2300 waste/min, so about 10.1 minutes to fill an ISC)

topaz hedge
#

but speaking of realisticness... the smelters and foundries should use way more power than any other machine lol

#

and after that concrete production should use the second most.

versed violet
#

Maybe they are advanced model with heat rcycling. otherwise the floor would melt

sand garnet
#

just realized that all you guys with your max nuclear setups are 100% going to need to make sure you have switches to turn off segments of the setup

#

otherwise that waste is going to pile up and mess up your whole world

topaz hedge
#

Yeah, max nuclear builds are dead

sand garnet
#

and it will happen FAST.

topaz hedge
#

I think they've been planning this for a long time.. and that's why they said they were going to break nuclear

versed violet
#

Build a whole farm of energy storage. Run plants for 10 minutes, use for days.

topaz hedge
#

because with this update nuclear HAS to get reworked

jade minnow
#

I think the power storage only saves the power for one hour or so

versed violet
#

should depend solely on capacity

iron prairie
#

(and, despite putting so much spreadsheeting into the nuke power, I refuse to use it in my games because I don't want to deal with waste I can't get rid of)

wind spade
sand garnet
#

Not with the new power changes lmao

#

a max nuclear build going 100% non stop? depending on where you build it that's gonna suck

wind spade
sand garnet
#

sad klepdar noises

wind spade
#

and that's not even accounting for the possibility to build vertical or have multiple waste storages

#

actually, I think it was days, not hours

#

let me do the math again

sand garnet
#

really hope they'll nerf radiation spread a bit for plutonium

#

more damage, smaller radius, something like that

iron prairie
#

My preference would be to have some sort of batch-mode waste processor that slowly steps down radioactive waste to a point where it can be sunk: potentially a lot of area consumed, but after enough time, less area than slapping down ISC after ISC. Possibly even requiring a series of processors for waste at different levels of radioactivity.

#

("batch mode" meaning "rather than a continuous in/out stream, it takes in X stacks, works on it for a while, and outputs X stacks of less-radioactive waste")

wind spade
#

max waste production is 2362.5/min, ISC has 24k capacity, that's ~0.098 ISC per minute or ~10.16 minutes per ISC.

assuming you put the waste storage in the northern ocean, west corner (on ground level, also yes, it's a bit simplified and assumes all containers in the same place, however it's pretty hard to calculate with containers in different places and it's purely theoretical anyway, so this is acceptable simplification).

let's say the north-west 1/4th of the map can be radiated without calling the world "messed up", so let's calculate when the radiation radius reaches middle of the map (map is 6800 x 7972 meters, for simplification let's make it square with same area, so 7363x7363 meters. Half of that is 3682 meters, so middle of the map will be at sqrt(3682^2 + 3682^2), so a circle with radius of 5207 meters. Since we want a 1/4th of the map, we can even reduce it to 4000m for simplification (and also my radiation tool kinda dies with larger numbers 🤷‍♂️ )

Putting these numbers into my tool, it results roughly in 10^24 Industrial Storage Containers full of waste (1000000000000000000000000). We multiply this by 10.16 minutes per ISC (or rather the exact value of 10.158...) and get insanely high number (~10^25), which after a bit of calculations is 10^19 years.

That's a lot.

Yes, it's a bit simplified, assumes you put everything in the corner in one place, etc etc. But. Even if we do just 1500 meters radius. That's still 10^9 containers. That's still 19237 years. On full power.

I think we're safe. Unless you put your storage in the middle of your base 🤷‍♂️

#

@sand garnet ^

magic shadow
wind spade
#

late night math, so if there's a mistake, I apologise in advance, but it's still several years before your save gets hurt in any serious way (assuming you put your storage away from everything)

magic shadow
#

yeah just a few

sand garnet
#

thanks for doing the math my small brain cant do lol

#

the knowledge of the math, plus the existence of the priority power switch allowing us to only turn it on when needed ( and in segments) will mean it's basically as much of an issue as it is right now

#

which means.. not an issue at all

magic shadow
#

so great work and all but why

versed violet
#

Would putting the waste containers beyond map edge help?

wind spade
#

it wasn't an issue even now 🤷‍♂️ people just made it seem like a huge deal. But it scales very nicely. Basically every time you multiply your waste by factor of 10, your radiation radius increases by ~150 meters

magic shadow
#

from what base? 1?

sand garnet
#

yeah before I actually created my own nuclear in U2, I was on team anti-nuclear

#

then I built the setup because I wanted to see if my feelings were justified

#

and then I came to the realization that they were in fact not justified lol

wind spade
magic shadow
#

is the spread 2d or 3d

wind spade
#

it uses 3d distance

magic shadow
#

circular or square
spherical or cubic sorry duh

wind spade
#

circular

#

so it's like a real distance between two points

#

yeah, spherical 😄

magic shadow
#

how far down does the map go 🤔

wind spade
#

you take damage at -244 meters

wintry aurora
#

Well, you don't fall into void for long before dying, so....

wind spade
#

but up it's a bit better, 1997 meters

#

so you can put your storage up there 2k meters and never worry about it 😄

magic shadow
#

im wondering what's the limit to how much waste you can put under the map without the rads going through the ground above

#

what's the lowest elevation

wind spade
#

that's hard to calculate. The tool basically assumes it's all in one place

magic shadow
#

how do the spheres stack

wintry aurora
#

The lowest elevation would be under sea level.

wind spade
#

they are technically not spheres

wintry aurora
#

Though I really don't know what the lowest point on solid land is., not including caves maybe.

magic shadow
#

excluding caves ig i don't really care about those

wind spade
#

basically every item radiates the whole map. The radiation quickly decreases with distance though. For every game tick, the game sums radiation intensity at your point and if it's bigger than 0.2, you're in a radioactive zone. The damage scales linearly with intensity up to 45, any intensity more than that is considered the same as 45.

#

the intensity formula consists of several constant factors, only variables in it are distance between source and target and item radiation intensity (e.g. fuel rods have higher than waste)

#

@magic shadow basically the formula is this

5a003a4e-cb21-4a23-ba3e-bdd995f4487d.png
magic shadow
wind spade
magic shadow
#

ah

#

why use e

wind spade
#

because it's fun 🤷‍♂️

#

I don't know, I got this from Jace, so you'd have to ask devs for this 😉

magic shadow
#

wait i'm confused by the sign

#

e is positive

#

so you use -e * dist?

wind spade
#

it's e^(-const * x)

#

or 1/(e^[const * x])

magic shadow
#

yeah ik negative exponentials at least :D

wind spade
#

anyway, my tool (linked somewhere above) just takes this formula and calculates the distances based on number and type of items

#

I don't know too much about design decisions regarding this 🙂 I just know how it works

magic shadow
#

so radiation in the game is an exponentially less powerful infinite sphere but past a certain point it has no effect?

wind spade
#

for one item, yeah

#

or rather one source

magic shadow
#

how do they stack

#

additive or greatest

wind spade
#

you sum the calculated intensities for every radioactive source on the map

magic shadow
#

ah ok

bleak coral
#

So the radiation isn't a problem, but how does the storage facility look work-wise? at about 10.15 minutes per ISC you'd need about 5.9 containers per hour of playtime. So for 100 hours that's about 590 ISCs you'd have to build......

#

That's a lot of containers per hour, and adds up pretty quickly if you want to spend time building something big enough to actually use that energy

#

Guess we'll see how those nuclear changes pan out

wintry aurora
#

That's without mods at least.

bleak coral
#

well duh, we're talking about vanilla balance

#

mods aren't a part of that discussion

topaz hedge
#

And you can't delete it with scim lol

wind spade
bleak coral
#

Oh sure, I was just trying to look at if from another angle. And to be fair the massive amounts of ISCs is realisitically only a problem with massive nuclear setups, so it kinda goes hand in hand. Gotta build big everywhere. If you build a modest nuclear setup even without changes running at 100% it's less of an issue. Like a 100GW setup only needs 50 ISCs to last 100 hours while running at 100%. That's not a small amount of ISCs but it's completely doable.

#

That's the complaint I see more often: that the waste will fill up storage.

wind spade
#

Well yeah, but you can build more storage 🤷

bleak coral
#

Exactly, I don't think it's an issue for normal nuclear setups

#

but also it's gonna change so we'll see what the deal is soon

topaz hedge
gilded maple
#

So I calculated the water with iron vs just the smelter, no over clock. Using the smelter is not as efficient in almost every category. But, depending on the size/shape of your factory you can have more throughout in the same amount of space using a smelter. Like on my 33x50 base I can theoretically fit 495 smelters (60% smelters 40% conveyors) in the same area as 264 refineries (60% refineries 40% conveyors and pipe) and that’s not counting the extra height or the reduced placement options of the refineries.

topaz hedge
#

no overclock on the smelter or refineriy or both?

gilded maple
#

No over clock on either

topaz hedge
#

smelters almost need a 200% overclock in general for iron just because 8 vs 16 for 480/min. and for steel I like a 150% on the foundry for solid steel to make the numbers neat. But yeah, sometimes they're really nice/ better/easier than refineries. I recently built a setup for 1920 iron ingot factory in rocky with smelters, and It probably took less than half the time it would've taken had I used refineries. Smelters might be worse in every way, but they are more time efficient lol

gilded maple
#

Getting ore I don’t think would be my problem, I’m setting up a train to try and get 11520/min from the 46 pure nodes, just have to try and avoid the god train Kibitz ran in to. Yeah idk on using nearly 1,000 power shards for the smelters. I also don’t want to deal with pipes if I don’t have to I’m tired of them😂

topaz hedge
#

scim yourself some shards and call it a day. lol

versed violet
topaz hedge
#

still counts against your object limit though :/

wintry aurora
gilded maple
gilded maple
wintry aurora
#

Oh, lol that's weird.

frosty owl
#

A bit of testing was made.
mk5 split into mk4, 2 mk2 and mk1 (in this order from bottom to top in picture). Smart splitters send items on the right, overflow straight.
Results: mk1 belt often not full. Drops in frame always result in a loss of items on the mk1 belt (the bigger the frame drop, the bigger the gap on conveyors, can be more then just mk1 if the drop is big enough). Despite that, the items in the containers are preserved: they seem to diminish until they hit a limit, but they reach that limit quite slowly and the balance is lost anytime you reload the area. No items are lost.
P.s.: When the belts lacked items due to lag, the change was reflected by a spike in the container's contents
@wind spade @oblique hollow

Screenshot20210226-06210200000.png
wintry aurora
#

By item loss, are we talking about items vanishing into thin air (almost sounds like memory leak material) or just more spacing between items?

#

Though if you mean it’s just visual, then it sorta sounds like the items warp to the containers, or at least appear to.

frosty owl
#

By item loss I refer to items disappearing.
But no, if it was only visual there would be no fluctuations in the containers' contents whenever the contents of the belts "glitched". Or so I suppose

wintry aurora
#

Fortunate that resources are essentionally infinite or disappearing items would be far more than an annoyance.

#

Might be a better experiment if the layouts were made identical, for science.

frosty owl
#

They are identical thinking_helmet

wintry aurora
#

One is a foundation wider.

#

Probably wouldn’t change it noticeably though, just slightly less travel time.

frosty owl
#

Shouldn't make any difference for our purposes

wintry aurora
#

I wonder if given enough time, the whole thing would actually run out of items?

frosty owl
#

No. As I said, there is no loss of items

wintry aurora
#

Which still confused me.

frosty owl
#

Sometimes belts aren't full. But the contents of the container (which tells the amount of items present in the system) are preserved, although the number does fluctuate when the belts "glitch"

wintry aurora
#

More of a ‘gets held back in the splitters/wherever’ I guess then.

frosty owl
#

Sounds plausible

vast jungle
#

so the items teleport "backwards" to their source or "forward" to the next container?

wintry aurora
#

Maybe teleport backwards? It reminds me very vaguely of ‘reappearing block syndrome’ in Minecraft which I know is completely, utterly, unrelated to this. I wonder if you can deduce it by seeing if the number fluctuates forward or backwards. I’m sure the devs have tools that can look deeper into it than we can though.

vast jungle
#

if they teleport backward this could have effect on the whole chain of earlier machines... hmm...

oblique hollow
wintry aurora
#

Good point.

oblique hollow
#

This just proves that the items dont disappear into the void

#

However, we get no insight into the Mk 5's true transportation speed

#

For that, we would need to do a timed loop with two containers: a source and a sink

frosty owl
wintry aurora
#

Or observe a production line? Though you’ve got more variables to control for then.

oblique hollow
#

A closed loop can not prove whether there are items on there or not

#

But a timed test can prove if it can transport 580 items in one minute

#

Between two containers

frosty owl
#

In a small portion, in does. You can notice wether items are held up or teleported to destination when belts look "not full" when they should be full (in this case, the container indeed showed changes to such "glitches")

frosty owl
wintry aurora
#

A thought, relative distance (horizontal+ vertical, but just horizontal to simplify it) would matter, a short distance would neccesarily be faster than a longer one.

oblique hollow
#

Im still of the opinion that the mk 1 belt is a very safe approximation to any kind of item rate fluctuation

#

So if it has gaps, then the item didnt leave the container

#

Aka: mk 5 is not really 780

wintry aurora
#

I thought MK 5 was 700 something?

oblique hollow
#

Aaah

#

780

frosty owl
oblique hollow
#

Yeah

wintry aurora
#

Doesn’t sound that time consuming though.

frosty owl
#

You're more then welcome to try :D

sand garnet
#

dont think this is the right channel lol, this channel is for math related stuff, like how to optimally calculate stuff

dusky rover
#

oh bruh

#

i read media instead of meta

frosty owl
mighty oar
#

meth and metha

wintry aurora
zealous tide
#

Math and meth

wintry aurora
#

I may need to find a more FPS droppy area because I tried with this long winding MK1 belt to see if I could spot any of the FPS stutter gaps and didn't see any.

unknown.png
magic shadow
#

do a lgio-style weave

#

that makes a FPS droppy area @wintry aurora :3

wintry aurora
#

Anyway, I tried with the MK1 belt and these two storages and it came out as 1:01.87 , but accounting for the imprecision of human reflexes (I tried to start it right as I transferred to the storage, but I may have started slightly too soon) and the slight travel time, that seems about right I guess.

unknown.png
#

I'll try to time it again using the longer one by when they start entering storage.

magic shadow
#

@wintry aurora i notice you're doing this in EA – do these issues also appear in EX?

wintry aurora
#

0:58.80? The imprecision of human reflexes is a factor here..... I think I started the clock like half a second after it appeared.

wintry aurora
#

There's room for experimenting further, but the imprecision of human reflexes needs to be factored out.

magic shadow
#

aren't there mods for calculating specific accurate throughput and such? maybe there is one for timing? it wouldn't be hard to do – time from box A to box B = time@boxB - time@boxA

stray willow
#

I would think it would be easier to record the timing period, then go back and find the frame the first item departs, and the frame the last time arrives, then subtract for the time difference

wintry aurora
#

That's feaseable, yea.

versed violet
#

A train wagon full of uranium ore OR A train wagon full of uranium pellets - what is more radioactive?
[Trying to decide whether process on-site]
Also, what would be the minimum safe distance from such wagon to not take radiation damage?

jade minnow
#

Wiki says the pellet is "mildly" radioactive while the ore is "moderately" radioactive. In my understanding mildly would be less

versed violet
#

I tried making sense with regards to item decay and stack size, but would love if someone with actual nuclear experience could tell.

wicked tinsel
#

looking at wiki, uranium pellet seem to be half as radioactive

#

tho it has twice the stack size so it equals out if it backs up

versed violet
#

They also convert 1:1 from uranium to pellet, so no practical difference then?

#

Oh, wait... That means you can ship twice as much if you convert to pellets, while keeping the same radiation footprint.

wicked tinsel
#

yep

tawny basin
#

hello does anyone know how to split 1 belt into 10?

sand garnet
#

Manifold

tawny basin
#

but how?

sand garnet
#

10 splitters

#

Each leading to 1 machine

tawny basin
#

ok thanks

icy pumice
#

so I never can decide which one I should choose but I would say the iron ingots is the best, which would u take?

unknown.png
jade minnow
#

The iron ingots are good for late game because that's how you can get the max ingots from the pure ore. Maybe you wanna go with 2 first because thats the best RIP recipe out there

icy pumice
#

okay ill do so 😄

#

is there like a list which ranks the alternate recipes?

jade minnow
#

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Hard_Drive

Satisfactory Wiki
Hard Drive

Hard Drives are special parts obtained from Crash Sites used to unlock Alternate Recipes (see below). Crash Sites can be located using Object Scanner after Radio Signal Scanning has been researched in the M.A.M..
Each Hard Drive can be researched in the M.A.M. and results in a choice of one of three alternate blueprints, chosen from the pool bel...

icy pumice
#

ah great

#

thank you!

topaz hedge
#

I like bolted plates better for late game.

#

It's faster, and cheaper on resources and uses fewer machines.

frosty owl
frosty owl
topaz hedge
#

@wintry aurora Do you need a big save to try this in?

wintry aurora
#

Maybe? I suppose I should try that.

wintry aurora
topaz hedge
#

well, maybe. but I have a mk4 belt in my old world that shows empty spaces coming straight out of an extractor

wintry aurora
#

I should reproduce Vencams setup to see if I get the stutters., and doing it in a decently active factory should still do it.

topaz hedge
#

I would say it's just visual, but the machines on that line are starving. and it's only using 465 of the 480

wintry aurora
#

I can force it into further activity by putting more feeds into sinks.

topaz hedge
#

prehaps, but trying it out in a world with 2800 running machines should cause issues xD

wintry aurora
#

At least as part of the circuit.

topaz hedge
#

I'm aware, and gallons test said he did it, but the contents of the container didn't reflect the gap

#

and if it's purely visual, why are machines starving when the math is correct.

wintry aurora
#

Producing faster than the intake is the logical answer if we aren't assuming some bug or glitch is behind this.

topaz hedge
#

Sure, I mean my math could be wrong too. but it's not.

deep root
#

I'm having some issues making a normal (300) oil node fit nicely into a plastic/rubber factory using recycled recipes and what not...Anyone have some output numbers for the rubber/plastic that make it self sufficient?

hot forge
#

Splitting 60 or 120 per second to 45 per second of anything?

deep root
#

Was that to me?

topaz hedge
#

I do not. what I did was I used the leftover oil for a self contained fuel packager setup

#

270 rubber and 270 plastic will use about 205 oil total.

sand epoch
deep root
sand epoch
#

Tools shows 450 plastic & rubber from 300 oil.

hot forge
sand epoch
gilded maple
#

I’m thinking about switching to using the coke+iron ore alt recipe and just ignore fuel generators, bc no math will keep me from producing too much fuel for my generators since they never run at 100%. I know in update 4 they will, but I’d rather have an over flow of petroleum coke that I can sink vs fuel stopping my plastic and rubber manufacturing. Would I be right in that or is that idea totally wrong and I’m just missing something?

deep root
sand epoch
deep root
#

Omg... I didn't think about going straight to oil with it

#

Thank you!

keen patio
gilded maple
bleak coral
#

There's nothing wrong with mixing them as long as you sink both sides correctly. Sure eventually with the right alt recipes you don't even have byproducts anymore when making plastic/rubber, but you gotta do something with the heavy oil residue before that.

#

But you're right that coke is the easier thing to turn HOR into and deal with, it actually also gets you more power than residual fuel.

keen patio
#

ah sorry; early game rubber/plastic? -- yea, make coke from HOR, maybe run some coal gens off it; but BE SURE to setup an overflow to sink for coke so it doesnt back up your plastic line

bleak coral
#

I think after the update 4 changes I might actually change my tune and recommended residual fuel as the "simple extra power" solution. Cause it'll be less power but there's no need to go find water and deal with that. Obviously just throw coke in sink will still be the simplest option.

wintry aurora
#

There could be new alts that crop up and we haven't seen what recipes the blender does. (other than at least one thing involving water).

fierce ruin
#

can someone tell me how to get 5 outputs of 60 into 3 outputs of 100 with only mk 3 belts

bleak coral
#

there's always manifolding instead of load balancing: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Manifold

but also you could split two of the 60 lines into six 20 lines then merge two of them into each of the remaining three 60 lines.

empty tusk
#

what is the ratio for fuel generator ? i got like 160 liquid fuel per minutes how many fuel generator i can install ? because the resin stop producing when the fuel is full in the refinery

oblique hollow
#

15 fuel per min for 1 gen

#

but thats (for now) only true when you use 100% of your power

#

In U4, that will always be true though

empty tusk
#

yeah i have like 10 fuel generator installed and the refinery keep on idling because of fuel is full

#

am on like 70% capacity

wind spade
#

You shouldn't rely on the resin from fuel production

oblique hollow
#

for now at least

empty tusk
#

i use resin for plastic and rubber

#

but when fuel is full all the production is stopped

wind spade
#

Yeah you shouldn't do that

#

You should have plastic/rubber production separate

empty tusk
#

how ?

wind spade
#

Make a separate production line that produces just plastic and rubber

empty tusk
#

And the liquid that refinery produce what can i do with it ?

wind spade
#

Which one?

empty tusk
#

From plastic

oblique hollow
#

the purple one?

empty tusk
#

Yes

oblique hollow
#

Heavy Oil residue?

#

you can turn that into fuel too

empty tusk
#

So it will be the same

wind spade
#

No, turn it to coke and sink

oblique hollow
#

oh yes

#

that also exists

wind spade
#

Or put into coal gens and sink the overflow

empty tusk
#

Good idea

wind spade
#

Also there are alternate recipes that make this way better

empty tusk
#

Yeah i have them unlocked i think

#

Thank u all

wintry aurora
#

Although, checking the math, I see what you're doing since that equals 780. So, 3 MK2s and 2 MK1s since that's the only way I can have it match 480.

wintry aurora
#

Also, why are the tops of your mergers completely silver and where are the lights on the top of both from? I don't have those.

glacial hemlock
#

There are throughput indicator / sensor mods that measure actual belt speed.

frosty owl
wintry aurora
#

I figured out what they were from the models.

#

Anyways, I can't seem to reproduce it on my save, maybe I just don't have enough machines to produce the stutter effect.

#

Even tried a whole bunch of different things.

frosty owl
#

Best I can offer is a save with many machines to test on, but I dunno if it might stutter for you too, as I don't have a powahful PC

wintry aurora
#

Ok

deep root
#

Is greeny the math genius around?

deep root
#

Alright, then let's try it 🙂

#

Is there an easy way with Satisfactory Tools to force machines to be clocked at 100%?

#

Meaning, If I want to produce 200 copper sheet per minute it will use 400 copper ingots, which is 13.33 Smelters. Can I force the tool to produce 420 ingots

#

Without actually inputting that I want to create 20 additional ingots

sand epoch
#

not with tools..

topaz hedge
#

that's kinda like asking my hammer to drive a nail into the wall without swinging it

sand epoch
#

SCIM may be able to.. (fuzzy memory disclaimer)

topaz hedge
#

although, Since greenies said this here, hopefully I'm allowed to say that he's working on making it so it will work better with added inputs.

sand epoch
#

doesn't it already?

topaz hedge
#

it can be made to work in this example, and with most things in a round about way.

sand epoch
#

that one is blank for me :/

topaz hedge
#

it's supposed to be.

#

because it doesn't work (yet) if you go under item's/inputs you can clearly see there's copper ingots for it to use, but as of right now it won't maximize a given input.

sand epoch
#

ah. i had only tested it with both inputs being used

topaz hedge
#

so the round about way is to tell it there's 1920 copper ore and use the standard recipe. which is fine, but if I had something like 600 circuitboards and I wanted to evaluate the best way to make, and how many computers I could make with those, it's a bit more complicated/work. example https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=zFiXiXEM9ljYBdXIotAQ In this case, I'll usually just guess, and not use maximize until I get as close as possible.

Satisfactory Tools

A collection of powerful tools for planning and building the perfect base. Calculate your production or consumption, browse items, buildings, and schematics and share your builds with others!

sand epoch
#

isn't that just due to not having all the parts needed?

topaz hedge
#

Not sure, greenie said the tool isn't setup to handle maximizing user inputs, but he's planning on adding it eventually.

wind spade
#

Yeah, input with maximise doesn't yet work 🙁

wind spade
deep root
#

It isn't hard to do, just wanted a shortcut

wind spade
#

In some cases it's impossible to do anyway

#

Or super hard at least

#

For example with cycles

deep root
#

Why would it be impossible?

wind spade
#

Recycled loop

deep root
#

Oh!! Yeah

#

Machine would break trying to do that lol

wind spade
#

I've tried to do it way back in U2 and found out that for some late game items, it could increase resource consumption by over 50%. It's just too much to be anyhow useful

deep root
#

That's a good point. I'm not using any late game recipes yet

wind spade
#

Underclocking is awesome and solves this exact issue way better than if you round the buildings up

deep root
#

Yeah sad thing is rounding decimals lol

wind spade
#

I'd just round up to nearest hundreth and keep it that way 🙂

deep root
#

One thing I've noticed lately with rounding is that sometimes it doesn't round properly to produce enough of a material

#

Like the tool will use 1.33 constructors, but in game 33% isn't enough

wind spade
#

It does round normally, it doesn't always round up 🤷

#

It's something I want to change when I implement overclocking

deep root
#

I've only recently found a few processes that it happens to

#

Normally it does a great job, and I love the tool

#

Nothing huge... I just wonder if maybe the in game numbers got tweaked at some point so your tool might be slightly off on some products

topaz hedge
#

you can remove most of the decimals from recycled loops by NOT using residual rubber/plastic and either sinking the poly resin, or processing it seperately.

deep root
#

Or maybe I don't understand the difference between the number on the target production rate vs actual production rate??? I tend to think the latter

wind spade
deep root
#

Ha! See I knew it was my fault

wind spade
#

What did you do?

deep root
#

Oh, you just saying the 1.33 is endless so it needs to be 34% in the machine

topaz hedge
#

Pretty much. look at the numbers, listed as well as the 1.33 machines, Sometimes it'll be exact, most of the time you'll need to turn up the clockspeed by 1%

errant sable
#

am i going insane or could these alts be used to turn fuel into plastic/rubber

unknown.png
#

if you make a loop using multiple refineries and both recipes

devout blade
#

wont you be wasting recources?

errant sable
#

i don't think so
it would take 60 fuel/min to make 30 plastic/min and 30 rubber/min

devout blade
#

huh

#

free energy

errant sable
#

which could be useful if you used the residual fuel recipe

topaz hedge
#

not resdual fuel

devout blade
#

whats residual fuel? (i just unlocked coal so now you know where i am on the tiers)

errant sable
#

it turns heavy oil residue to fuel

topaz hedge
devout blade
#

whats... oil?

errant sable
#

heavy oil residue is a byproduct of making plastic/rubber out of crude oil

devout blade
#

whats crude oil and how do i make it

errant sable
#

oil extractors

devout blade
#

what is oil?

errant sable
#

i think it's in tier 5

devout blade
#

oh ok

#

cool so ill find it eventually

errant sable
glacial hemlock
#

It would be good to actually split this into dedicated plastic and rubber production, and within each group, has 0.25 of the final product looped back to byproduct, which in turns converted into the final product. If both combined, there is a small chance where they will bottleneck each other

topaz hedge
#

^ Or some other kind of werid issue that'll drop your output of one or the other. Chances of it happening increase as you scale up.

#

It works best if you target the output based on a belt speed as well, so your output belt will limit the output and prevent the loop from running dry. such as a target output of 60, with mk2 belts in the loop, or 120 with mk2 and mk3 in the loop, etc.

manic oak
#

So I've been setting up a new base in the Desert, and before doing any math I slapped down some Foundations and made a base wide enough to house 10 Train Stations, each with 8 freight platforms. Given that there would be about 10 resources I'm looking to bring in (excluding Uranium and Oil), I was wondering if my layout would be able to provide enough throughput of each ore, or if I was going to need to expand. So, using the interactive map, I did some math, and calculated the total amount Ore/min for each resource node on the map, assuming each was equipped with a fully overclocked Mk. 3 Drill. For anyone interested, here are the results (attached via text document)

📎 Total_Ores_Per_Minute.txt
fierce ruin
#

the map maxes are already available by the satisfactory tools w/o mods, rip.

#

also it may be advantageous to perform reducing processes, such as caterium ore to ingots (which 1/2s throughput)

glacial hemlock
vast jungle
sage flax
#

ah ok i checked the pins xd

glacial hemlock
#

Greeny's calculator

manic oak
#

There seems to be some confusion. The calculation wasn’t made to see if I could saturate 16 780 Mk. 5 Belts for an 8 car freight station (though I have an idea that might make it possible). Rather, I was doing an upper limit test on the number of stations that would be able to keep up with that demand, given the input was every resource node on the planet.

frosty owl
#

Heyo, layout help needed 👋
I'm planning a BUS made on stackable poles (4 stacks 5/6 high each). At the moment, I'm just spacing them out so I can have lifts bring the resources from the bus to the floor (I use the floor to manage the belt I need to add/take away).
What are some tips or suggestions you have to build it in a way that makes it easy to take away/put items on it? ^^

vast jungle
#

the main issue I see is how to get something out or in from the middle of the bus

frosty owl
#

@vast jungle What I got at the moment don't have the "central row" issue thanks to the space lefts for lifts (around the central row, and even on the external sides if I take away the ramps)
Also, one could just have put things on the central rows first (from the top) then on the lateral ones and take out stuff in the opposite order... things get complicated and limited that way though :\

Screenshot20210226-05555900000.png
vast jungle
#

if you leave enough space to put in a splitter/merge everywhere AND have space for sideways lifts it could work.

frosty owl
#

That was the idea, yes. The spacing is enough to have a merger on the bus, connect a lift and have the lift placed right between 2 rows of belts 👌

vast jungle
#

how many belts will contains the same item?

#

this could also make a difference in usability

frosty owl
#

What do you mean? thinking_helmet

vast jungle
#

if you plan a bus with 16 belts and 16 item types its completely different to one with 4 item types (and 4 belts each)

frosty owl
vast jungle
#

14 quickwire???

frosty owl
#

Sry, 12

vast jungle
#

okay then you can keep the quickwire belts even more compact... 3x4 or 2x6 without spacing...

frosty owl
# vast jungle 14 quickwire???

I know I should transport the copper and cat ingots rather then quickwire, but it was very convenient to produce it there 😅

vast jungle
#

no need to get something out of the interior of the "quickwire bus" if you can first just consume the outer ones

frosty owl
#

That sounds like a good idea, but it would probably ruin the look of it unless I made a dedicated bus for that, would it?
I mean, I can't simply add poles to fill the voids, as I wouldn't have space for the lifts for the other belts then

vast jungle
#

same for iron/silica/copper

#

if you make the bus "4 belts high", you can have three rows for quickwire, one for iron (upper layer unused), one for silica (again 1 unused) and one for copper... and then have a little bit apart your mixed belt if you really need it

sand garnet
#

if you make the bus zero belts high, and just change it for small scale production, you get even better results 😄

vast jungle
#

having a "row" of stacked belts with the same material sounds very scalable... up to a certain height 😉

mossy pike
#

Need some help double-checking my power generator underclock numbers. I generate 800 fuel/min and have 66 fuel generators (for styling reasons). If I leave 44 to consume at 100%, I want the remaining 22 to consume fuel at (800/15 - 44)/22 = 0.4242.. rate. Burn time then is 4s *(1/0.4242..) =~ 9.42s.

#

Formula for clocking power production building is (fuel burn time) = (initial fuel burn time) x (clock speed / 100)^-(1/1.3), so if we shuffle it around, (clock speed/100) = (fuel burn time / initial fuel burn time)^-1.3, so plugging in the numbers (9.42/4)^-1.3 = 0.328, i.e 32% clock to be safe.

oblique hollow
#

why the odd splitting

mossy pike
#

Tower of generators, 6 per floor

manic oak
#

Your initial calculation of 0.4242 burn rate is correct. If you run 44 at 100%, you would consume 660 fuel/min, leaving you with 140 fuel/min for the remaining 22, which is 6.36 fuel/min per generator, 42% of the usual value. The burn time is then, as you calculated, (Normal Burn Time)*(Normal fuel/min)/(New fuel/min) = 9.43 s. Plugging into your formula gives 32.8% clock speed.

oblique hollow
#

you wont ever get near their maxiumum capacity anway, so why the effort? unless this is some prep for U4

mossy pike
#

It is indeed prep for U4

#

fingers crossed the clock formula doesn't change

oblique hollow
#

consider this: the over/underclocking might change to not be as much of a pain to work with.

#

because right now the percentage values given by the overclocking window are next to useless

#

and if CSS changed the power UI, added Storages, removed self-regulation, changed how geothermal works and is also redoing nuclear..... then what is stopping them from changing this too?

mossy pike
#

Nothing preventing them, in fact I would appreciate them making the clock straightforward with a linear scale. However I suspect they would like to keep the current formula, since 250% clocked generators consume fuel/produce power at ~200%, promoting a "bigger factory" build.

#

Mostly though, I figured if they make a change, I'll be more happy to go back and fix it, rather than knowing it's a problem I am guaranteed to have to face in a few weeks

oblique hollow
#

they could just change the percentage values in the UI to scale less drastically, but still linear:
1 shard: 135%, 2 shards 170%, 3 shards 200 % (or 205%)

frosty owl
# sand garnet if you make the bus zero belts high, and just change it for small scale producti...

There are too pure nodes there for small scale things ahahah
Still, the bus should serve for small scale productions, it just happens to be a lot of quickwire not close to a station to be sent farther away, so I'll process that first and clear a lot of belts soon enough to serve for the output/inputs of buildings along the way and serve as a way to see how overall production goes
||Also... Looks I think it'll look cool :happy_hannah: :jace_smile: ||

vast jungle
#

need "a little bit" quickwire for my current factory too... but not even 3 belts full

frosty owl
#

Originally, there were supposed to be 16 belts of quick, but I managed to steer off 4 to make AI limiters before the start of the BUS :P
Those take much less space on belts ahahah

#

I think all those 4 belts reduce to just 200/300 AI limiters per minute

vast jungle
#

in my experience buses are just unreliable... you should take a train, car or bike! 😉

frosty owl
#

Ugh, too little space for that. I think I'll use them for less then a third of items (ores excluded)

weak elk
#

truck station with explorer very good combo for getting parts without making a bus system or roads.they can climb pretty much any road.just expensive.keep it under 3mins per run each drop off is 11 secs.so you have 3mins -20secs buffer for error and -24 secs for the drop and loading of items

wind spade
#

do you mean belt system?

weak elk
#

bus is like lots of belts right?

wind spade
#

no

#

bus is when you have a lot of belts and you split resources from them to nearby constructors/assemblers and merge their product back onto the "bus"

weak elk
#

oh

wind spade
#

if you just build a lot of belts from A to B, it's just "stacked belts", not a bus