#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 504 of 1

naive ingot
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Personally, I use the HOR->DPF processing relatively close to my oil extraction, then have a few unpackagers and refineries doing a clean recycled rubber/plastic loop at the factory.

fierce ruin
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I do 1/3 fuel to rubber 2/3 to plastic resin to plastic for recyled rubber and for packaging

strange laurel
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Hey ya'll, I am looking at making a fluid buffer and I am wondering about how best to do the piping

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Each row is fed from a differnt set of refineries

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and the bottom row is fed at half the rate

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I am wondering if I can easily oferflow the top 2 rows into the bottom row so all contains get filled up around the same time

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But I also need to ensure I have 3 mk.2 pipes coming out the otherside to feed fuel generators

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I am essentially trying to give myself 1 hours run time of fuel should the production shutdown for any reason

sweet wave
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Does anyone know how many coal generators 1 water pump can supply?

torpid robin
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2.66

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Go 3 extractors 8 coal gens 120 coal

sweet wave
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Thanks

torpid robin
torpid robin
strange laurel
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Not sure what you mean by off to the side?

torpid robin
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Shit

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I can’t draw an example lol

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Like say you have a pipe of fuel running to the gens

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Don’t put the buffer on that line

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Put a junction . Then have a seperate line for the buffers. Then have it feed back in

vital shale
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Hey Folks, newer player here and trying to learn some methods for better factory planning. I've been trying to figure out methods for easy input/output balancing. I thought about comparing product output to electricity used as a base of comparison to see if I could find something useful with that. Here's an example with the standard Circuit Board recipe:

7.5 CB/s x 4 Assemblers = 30 CB/s
4 Assemblers x 15 MW (@100% rate) = 60 MW consumed

If I underclock the assemblers to 5 CB/s, and use 6 assemblers (I'm using 6 for easy splitting) it goes like this:

5 CB/s x 6 Assemblers = 30 CB/s
6 Assemblers x 7.9 MW (@~67% rate) = ~47.4 MW consumed

What it looks like to me is that underclocked buildings use less MW (duh) but the ratio of MW consumed to products produced improves when using more underclocked buildings. Am I misunderstanding something here? Can I just use more buildings at the cost of footprint to improve energy consumption and easier belt splitting?

strange laurel
sand garnet
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power doesnt scale linearly in either direction

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so yeah, if you want the most 'bang for your buck' power-wise, underclocking is beneficial

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you sacrifice space, but gain more power to usefor the rest of the factory

vital shale
sand garnet
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there arent really any

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I mean, you can do stupid stuff like 100 machines at 1% instead of 1 at 100%

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the major downside of doing stupid stuff like that is degraded performance

vital shale
torpid robin
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And put a valve on

fathom root
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if i have 24687758642872834564239.651651651787687**687676765-364567486758436454*876375848448545^4 then how many apples are healthy for a mk 11 conveyor?

torpid robin
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Reason why I say that is . If you have it all in line . Or no valve . If you have a problem. All your stored fuel will flow back into your line . You won’t know about it .until your power trips . The. You have no back up fuel so you gotta find the problem while powerless

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If you have a valve . It will fill up . Then if power trips. You take the valve off . Let it flow back into the line. You then have that amount of time of your buffers to find the problem

torpid robin
vital shale
torpid robin
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No need

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Cause you won’t be using all the fluid anyway

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Itl all just do it’s thing eventually

vital shale
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Are the valves 1 way?

torpid robin
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Yes

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That’s partly the point of them

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If you feed the output back I to the line . The buffers will empty before you notice there is a problem

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Hence why I say have them seperate

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You want them full when you notice a problem

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Or you may notice before hand . But half of it may of flown back into the lines and I to the gens

strange laurel
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Rudimentary example, but is that right?

torpid robin
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Yup Thatl work

vital shale
# strange laurel

thats what I was thinking, but I might be misunderstanding the problem based on Yeti's points. My solution would always be feeding into the system, but you will get fuel in the resivoir

torpid robin
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If it was me. I’d just not put the out out line

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Less things to build lol

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Cause it’s either you go through and change the valve to allow flow. Or you delete one. Depends on how you lay shit out though

torpid robin
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It depends on how your power trips

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If you just build too much and it trips what you say will work fine

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If something breaks with your power set up . Like say you accidentally delete a coal line or something . You don’t make the turbo fuel cause it’s missing the coal then you run out

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If you have been feeding it back in . The buffers will empty themselves before you notice something is wrong . So then you have no back up fuel

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So it’s situational. But I like to plan for everything . Something just as simple as a valve can cover all basis

vital shale
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Thanks a lot for mentioning that, I get it now. Sorry for just jumping in, I liked the idea and wanted to throw in my 2 bits

vital shale
torpid robin
strange laurel
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Thanks all. Really helpful

vital shale
vital shale
torpid robin
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Well you are spot on

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The more buildings you underclock the less power you use

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But the more space obviously

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So it’s up to you and the situation you are in for what you wanna do

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Generally I won’t over clock id add another building and underclock

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But I won’t add another 6 machines say just to underclock all of them

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Cause space is normally my biggest concern . But that’s cause I build very large

bleak coral
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I do think you're on the right mindset of underclocking to get a nice number of machines to load balance for. I think that's the best way to do it if you're gonna load balance. It avoids too complicated setups and the throughput limitations of the feedback balancer setups.

torpid robin
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I’d just not load balance lol

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But to say get a nice row of machines I’d add more and underclock lol

bleak coral
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I don't prefer it either, but if I did want to do that's the way I'd do it.

torpid robin
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But yea pretty much you are on the right track

bleak coral
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@strange laurel I'd also consider doing a "fail-safe" wiring setup. You can isolate the machines feeding the power plant and enough generators to power them on their own circuit. Then if the main system trips the plant doesn't shut down.

torpid robin
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Fuse box ftw

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Or have geothermal as a kick start . Or your old coal setup

strange laurel
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Do people have examples of fuse box examples

torpid robin
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Yes

vital shale
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Most of base level items are fed by overflow, but I'm starting to have some issues with organizing the higher level parts, Thanks for your consideration

strange laurel
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are geothermal that good?

torpid robin
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3600mw of power can be nice

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Like my geo will kickstart my coal . My coal kickstarts my fuel . Fuel will kick start nuclear

torpid robin
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That’s mine . I delete wires where I need

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And I have it all drawn up in lucid chart so I know what’s what

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I have an isolated main power line come in . Then it splits in 2 then 2 again . So I have 4 sub lines . Then each sub has 18 other for me to connect to

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So I can have 72 isolated factories or whatever

strange laurel
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wow

abstract thorn
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Hey folx,

So I'm trying to setup a 33 constructor x 23 assembler steel pipe >> encased beam setup. Is this a good case to use smart splitters for overflow?

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as far as trying to get the last little bit into that 23rd assembler

fierce ruin
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I feel like that's a waste

deft pike
fierce ruin
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since the manifold method does that by default when the stack size is met

abstract thorn
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I carry it all on a single line

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because I only have mk4

fierce ruin
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the mk doesn't determine how many lines you can have

abstract thorn
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Right but it determiens the max I can put on a single line, so I'm carrying 16+17 constructor outputs on 2 lines

deft pike
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So, just make two manifolds, one for each line. If overflowing from both, merge the ends of them into the last assembler.

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You won't need a smart splitter, regular will work fine.

abstract thorn
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mkay i'll give that a shot. Thanks!

strange laurel
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So I think I have worked out how to handle the fuel consumption by my Fuel Generators, allowing for less consumption whilst not under load, and then sinking the excess. Would love peoples thoughts on this

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I made it Google Sheets and saved it as a PDF

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Red = Fuel Generators
Orange = Packagers

Not Shown : Empty Canisters coming into the Packagers

torpid robin
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That is hard to see on phone

strange laurel
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Yea it will be lol

torpid robin
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But why are you trying to over flow excess and sink

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What’s the point . Just let it stop

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You are over complicating something so much that can be so simple

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You need to sink the resin but nothing else

strange laurel
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so just let it back up?

vital shale
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How many points do you get for sinking packaged fuel?

torpid robin
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I mean if you are doing a small set up it may not be much effort .

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But I get 133000mw of power from my turbo fuel

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Fuck setting up over flows for that much . Taking me a couple weeks to do my set up as is lol

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Imo power is the one thing you let back up and stop . By all means sinks for your production lines . But I feel the complications of sinks on power systems aren’t worth the effort

strange laurel
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Fair enough

torpid robin
torpid robin
vital shale
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packaged turbo fuel is worth 570/item, depending on your rates it might be worth it if you plan to phase out your gas generators. I don't know too much about sink values yet, most of my produced items are still being used for further production (Edit: On second thought, If your plan is to sink the excess fuel maybe reconsider your fuel production rate to allow for more production of other higher value products that rely on oil )

patent latch
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not sure if this is the right place to post but i did some math for materials i needed for phase 3 and thought others might find it helpful.... cupokbyecup

📎 SPOILER_unknown.png
rugged bison
bright heart
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If I was being lazy and using HOR for fuel, how many generators can I run from a normal oil node? Oil just seems to exist to frustrate me for some reason

torpid robin
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if you are being lazy. thats about as much effort as im gonna put in

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put what you want into that. itl tell you

bright heart
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The not-lazy option involves water and plastic residue. That's a lot of pipes and/or belts

torpid robin
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why not use turbo fuel?

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if you are wanting to be lazy thats the best bet

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cause then you wotn have to change it.

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and you will get more

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and its actually simple

bright heart
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because there's no HHD within a few kilometers of here and it's an alt only recipe.

torpid robin
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go hunting.cause it will serve you much much more in the long run

bright heart
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I want to power my heavy frame factory before I hunting for a few dozen hdds, and I'm short on power

near imp
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It says in the squares

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And the reason you shouldnt use fuel is because it lowers to the required usage and in that case it will slowly back up untill the rubber refinerys are full of residue and the entire production line stops

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As long as it works for you

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Its my first factoryplan so it can be more efficient

naive ingot
patent latch
naive ingot
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You could probably cut it down significantly by using more alts.

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... or if you used all vanilla recipes, as a lot of that wire consumption is coming from the Stitched Iron Plates recipe.

naive ingot
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Now that I think about it, using the "optimal" set of alt recepies would probably bring the wire cost down a little bit, but steel pipe demand would be astronomical.

vast jungle
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just built a factory for 300+ Steel Pipes/min... and discovered its not enough. ;)

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no, not 300+... 860 Steel Pipes/min...

naive ingot
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"hah, I have eliminated screws from my production lin- wait, why do I hear boss music?" A wave of Steel Pipes approaches from the horizon.

vast jungle
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43 Constructors of Steel Pipes... 🙂

naive ingot
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Good times.

vast jungle
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but like I said, I miscalculated... its not enough

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with the "leftover" steel pipes I can either feed my planned Motor factory or the planned HMF factory

naive ingot
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HMFs are nice for hoarding for the next tiers, motors can be used now to stock up on Turbomotors.

vast jungle
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and HMFs are needed for trains and train-stations a lot

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so most likely today will be "rail tunnel building" and then a nice 20 motor, 20 rotor, 20 stator factory... Copper and Steel goes in, stuff comes out

whole goblet
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Today i get to finish logistics for 100 packagers ans start placing 150 refineries 😁. Im turning the whole northern coast into turbo fuel

jaunty geyser
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@whole goblet 150 refineries ? what tier are you at ? (almost finish placing my 600th today with the nuclear setup)

whole goblet
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@jaunty geyser ive unlocked everything but hazmat suit and nuclear. But thats only because i dont wanna play with nuclear yet and i didnt see anything i needed in the tier

jaunty geyser
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well, nuclear isn't that refineries heavy, with only 20 per node

whole goblet
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@jaunty geyser i already have 139 refineries and will need 400 to make the turbofuel

jaunty geyser
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hum, just for the fuel, but without nuclear you need a lot of turbofuel

whole goblet
wooden pond
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true efficiency

jaunty geyser
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A little unclear, but you shouln't need any constructor for the canister once you have a stock

whole goblet
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Im setting up a smart splitter so okce the system backs up itll feed into the rest of the lines then ultimately. Into a sink

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The constructors feed 1 line of water packagers. The other 125 will be manually loaded

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Its gonna be a pain to get running but worth it in the end

jaunty geyser
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you can avoid it if each line of fuel unpackager doesn't feed only one line of water packager

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longer to get running but no intervention

whole goblet
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@jaunty geyser well each row is 25 deep which requires 2 mk5 belts. Or woukd the manifold system eliminate the need for using 2 belts itll just take longer for all machines to get filled

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How are you suggesting it be set up

jaunty geyser
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well, I don't use as many as you, only 1200 oil, for 56 water packager, but I have a system, let me a minute, I make a screenshot and i post it

whole goblet
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@jaunty geyser i overclocked all oil nodes to provide the most

jaunty geyser
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I only use 2 oil node

whole goblet
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Im using all nodes on the northern coast

jaunty geyser
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It's more a proof of concept, I think it is scalable

whole goblet
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@jaunty geyser of course its scalable if you just using 2 mk2 pipes the scalability would be building the setup once for every 2 pipes

jaunty geyser
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After the first set of refineries, hard to say what come from which node

whole goblet
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Yeah but i can just replicate it 3 times for each set of pipes

jaunty geyser
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to explain, for each 20 packager (1 pipe water in and 1 pipes fuel out), I have 2 industrial container : one that receive empty canister from unpackager and one that send them to the packager, If you don't want stocks of canister, you can use mergers and spliters

abstract thorn
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I thought turbofuel burned at 2k?

frosty owl
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It can burn at 4k if your GPU can render it

night jay
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If you overclock your cpu you can burn up to 16k

jaunty geyser
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what do you call "burn at Xk" ?

magic shadow
abstract thorn
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I misunderstood what turbofuel did on the wiki.

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it says 2000Mj

oblique hollow
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thats the energy of it. 1 MJ over 1 second = 1 MW

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it burns for 13.333 seconds

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2000MJ / 13.3333s = 150 MW

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a fuel generator at 100 % clock speed will always produce 150 MW. Turbofuel simply takes longer to get used up

vast jungle
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yes, the whole MW to MJ issue in the Fuel Generator page makes the page difficult to parse

bleak coral
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The only place on that page I see MJ even mentioned is next to the fuel type listing how much MJ/m^3 each has. And that's right above the chart that shows you how much a generators needs per minute of each fuel.

vast jungle
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I think the page was more complicated when I used it last year... someone cleaned it up in January

bleak coral
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yup looks like ondar did it for exactly the reason you said lol: " removed Detailed values section (quite unclear, badly readable, could be easily misinterpreted) "

vast jungle
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I remember reading the page a few times, then ignore it completely and started playing with the numbers in satisfactorytools.com

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that was much easier to get right 😉

opaque gate
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what are the best train ratios

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like train to carriage

vast jungle
opaque gate
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ok thanks cus i have a lot of spirals and i dont want to find out the hard way

vast jungle
opaque gate
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you have 2 tracks ? i only have 1 but ive made the tracks run backwards into each other

vast jungle
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one track for getting up, one for getting down

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(one diameter 6 foundation, one diameter 8 foundations)

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I use dual-train-tracks everywhere... (among other things) in preparation to train signals and collisions

tawny willow
zealous tide
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Anyone know the simplest steel to encased beam and heavy frame layout?

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Using steel pipe for beams

sand garnet
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Solid steel ingot
Heavy encased frame
steeled frame
encased industrial pipe
stitched iron plate

chilly pilot
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Henning, you exist to make others hate themselves.

bleak coral
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could throw iron wire in there too to skip needing to get copper

sand garnet
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Yes definitely

bleak coral
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I left out the pure recipe because it adds a lot of room, complexity, and power

zealous tide
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Wow I didn't even know you could do that with the calculator....

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I'm an idiot you're a legend thank you

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I think that comes together nicely though

bleak coral
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Yup it's good to play with turning recipes on and off, since it solves for weighted resource efficiency and that's not always what you're going for

zealous tide
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Esp with iron wire. Find a couple coal and iron nodes close to a limestone and skies the limit

bleak coral
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well solves for efficiency on items/min and solves for max amount on maximize

zealous tide
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Well it says you can switch that

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Oh I see, you're saying those are the only two options

bleak coral
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yes

zealous tide
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What else would you want to do tho?

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Like overflow?

bleak coral
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like what your'e doing, reducing complexity

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or minimum power, or minimum footprint

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there's different "solutions" or goals to solve for

zealous tide
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Ohhhh gotcha gotcha gotcha

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I thought you were just talking about calculating outputs

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Yeah of course simpler layouts and stuff will always have to be hand-tinkered I think

bleak coral
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you could algorithmically do it, but greeny hasn't (yet, he's always tinkering on stuff)

zealous tide
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I have a good motor factory with 6 foundries and tons of copper/coal overhead, once I get solid steel ingots I should have enough extra for expansion

bleak coral
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also the maximize not solving for efficiency is why I usually take the maximized number and put it into items/min so I can get it done efficiently too

zealous tide
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But I need heavy frames and encased beams and saw they had good synergy

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Seemed like I could simplify

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That's what I was gonna say

bleak coral
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yup, encased pipes & encased heavy frames are great recipes

zealous tide
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I would take like my own max ore number leaving some overhead and put it in

sand garnet
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lots of steel, lots of pipes, lots of concrete

zealous tide
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Yep

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You think wet concrete is worth the extra complexity?

bleak coral
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I realized after that I'm actually using the same plan for my HMF factory, but with pure ingots and wet concrete cause it's a huge factory

sand garnet
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nah

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for most people wet concrete isnt needed

zealous tide
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I imagine lund probably just has them already

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And it's convenient

bleak coral
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not most of the time, I'm doing 50+ parts per minute HMF and don't want to train in more limestone

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the factory was also planned, designed, and is made to accommodate pure recipes, because it's a raised platform over the northern bay

zealous tide
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Mmm makes sense

bleak coral
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but I agree that most of the time wet concrete and pure ingots are superfluous, a little bit win more because there's so much limestone and iron ore anyway

zealous tide
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I'm only 100 hours or so in and as I start learning oil I'm realizing I need to retool my current production

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So I'm just trying to do it right the first time

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But now I'm wondering if I should make a new base somewhere around better nodes

bleak coral
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you can't do oil right the first time, because the alt recipes for oil change how you do it so much and they're really good efficiency wise

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but add a lot of complexity

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I prefer just leaving setups that are working alone and go start new bases, but it's personal preference

zealous tide
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Yeah oil I know I'm gonna fuck up and have to re-do and all kinds of shit but the lower stuff I wanna have done mostly right

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Hard drives might be my limiting factor though.

edgy vault
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When starting oil, you'll just want to make a baby system that can produce a bit of everything to stockpile and figure out the mechanics of fluids and overflow, but won't be in the way or will be torn down for the more efficient system later.

zealous tide
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So I have motors done then encased beams and heavy frames, anything else I should have a steady stream of as I expand into oil?

edgy vault
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You'll need computers for fuel gens, if that's apart of your oil plan

zealous tide
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Yes I guess I can't build a setup for that until I get plastic rolling steady

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And power grid is due for expansion

edgy vault
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A tip if you will: petrol coke to coal gens is more efficient than base fuel to fuel gens

zealous tide
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All tips welcome they will most likely save me immense amounts of time haha

edgy vault
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Most people seemingly treat petrol coke as a purely sinkable only item, but I really like the alts provided you have them

zealous tide
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I need to go alt hunting but need a few specifics for a factory

crude monolith
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Hey Sneakstar, yea, that appears to be the case. I've been working on my second factory, planning and such. I hope to use coke as an alternative to coal in many situations, if I can help it. 😄

torpid robin
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I’d argue that it’s not worth it’s not exactly the most reliable source of power. And you would be better off to just stick with what coal you have then move onto a turbo fuel set up

wind spade
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why wouldn't it be reliable?

wintry aurora
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Dependent on the HOR output for one, there's better uses for it than coal power plants as it only gives a bit more than half the energy of regular coal. I guess you could use the overflow to supplement the coal plants or something.

nimble hinge
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I think the absolute max speed a train platform can take is 1295/min. For a 100 stack size item.

3200 capacity of wagon / (780 per min mk5 belt x 2)
= 3200/1560
= 2.051min
= 123sec transfer time from container to station.

Load time = 25sec.

123 + 24 = 148sec available time to provide 3200 units.

3200 / (148/60)
=3200/2.47
=1295 unit/min max rate the station can utilise.

1295 - 780
=515/min to be supplied from the second belt if 1st is mk5.

270+120+120 = 510/min for 2xmk2 and 1xmk3 if you wanted to rate limit into the platform.

For copper ingots the rate looks like 35 refineries per platform.
For iron ingots almost exactly 20 per platform

Edited with corrected station wait time.

wind spade
torpid robin
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I feel that seems like such a complicated way to work it all out ae lol

torpid robin
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So then all the next things in the line you are working out on the train capacity . Rather than what you are getting from the miner

tacit wasp
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Best thing to do with 780 belts is just assign one belt per train station instead of two. Use an industrial storage container to buffer the loading / unloading when the station stalls.

torpid robin
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Onbviously you could supply say like 2 600 lines to the same platform

tacit wasp
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Lol when people get up in arms about train transport volumes I'm always like "why not just make the train longer?"

torpid robin
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But . If your train wasn’t coming back In time . And you needed another cart . You may as well just put each of those lines into their own cart l

tacit wasp
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yeah

torpid robin
tacit wasp
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it's not like more train cars takes longer to load

torpid robin
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I find it too complicated to do the math and work it all out to have everything 100% full . Makes it more complicated on the other end to

tacit wasp
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yup

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and if the train is too long, add a 2nd line

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in parallel

torpid robin
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What would you call too long ?

tacit wasp
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more than 20

torpid robin
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About what I do . I think I have 2 at about 22

tacit wasp
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yeah, had an old train line at 18 but I changed things up in a big redesign

torpid robin
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I have enough space to unload 12 lines at 60 carts each . But finding the space to load that many round the world ain’t a happening thing lll

tacit wasp
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yeah

nimble hinge
# torpid robin And the problem with this . You are working it out on a max 2 belt of mk5 which ...

No no, it's a line of 780 and a line of 510, not two max mk5. This calculation involves a buffer double container attached to both ports of the platform.

The 1295 feed rate is directly into the buffer container. The buffer container can feed the platform at 2x780. However, the buffer container can't consistently feed 2x780 as there is a loading time. This is where the 1295 number comes from.

Feed buffer non stop 1295.
Buffer feeds everything directly into the platform so buffer is empty.
Train is timed to arrive exactly as platform is full.
24 seconds of load time where the buffer is absorbing the 1295.
Train leaves and the buffer pushes the buffered items at 2x780 into the platform while still receiving at 1295.

Given a wagon capacity of 3200, this makes 1295 the theoretical maximum throughout of a platform with a perfectly timed train.

What this means is whatever your output of material, say 4500 ingots per min. Divide it by 1295 and it'll tell you how many platforms you need to manage it.

In this case it's be 3.47 platforms, which means you could rate limit the 4th platform and mix another material in there, knowing you'll have have the wagon half empty.

frosty owl
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I used that way of thinking, but in the end abandoned it as even 1200 had too little "tolerance" (in the timing of the train) to be usable in my setup as it took too much time to change the track to make the timing perfect. In the end I settled for loading 480x2 (or anything below 1000/min) so I can avoid thinking about complex timetables

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Don't get me wrong, I do hate using too many stations and/or freight, but the headaches weren't worth it IMO

nimble hinge
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I see where you're coming from for sure. But the number basically indicates a hard limit on what can be pushed through, doesn't have to be a practical amount :)

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On another note as I begin the build to try and achieve these numbers :O
Does anyone have a load balancer for 15:15?

wind spade
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why would you even need that

frosty owl
frosty owl
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(Using a strong tone for the meme)

nimble hinge
#

I have 14.15 full mk5 belts of iron ingots to load onto a train. I just figured if it's not a terrible contraption it'd be nice to put in the lines before they go forward. Better to think about now than later.

wind spade
#

or... just use the amount that's on the belt?

nimble hinge
#

I'm just pondering different ways of doing the same thing to see what's best

frosty owl
#

I don't get WHAT you want to balance...

#

You have 14 lines and want to make them into 15?

nimble hinge
#

I have 14.15 mk5 belts of iron ingots. (11310/min)

wind spade
#

it's much better to just use what you have on the belt, the production is constant, mines don't run out, so no need to balance (as opposed to factorio)

frosty owl
#

"Better" is quite subjective

#

I'd say "simpler"

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

like I say, I'm not firmly going for balancers, I just wanted to see what the options looked like before I decide how I'm going to feed the station

wind spade
frosty owl
nimble hinge
nimble hinge
frosty owl
#

You'd have belts transporting 754/min, that doesn't seem like a convenient number to have. Certanly not something I would BALANCE belts to obtain

wind spade
#

I mean that's up to you, just seems pointless, when there's basically no extra cost from extra freight car

nimble hinge
#

pointless is subjective here haha

frosty owl
#

Space

wind spade
#

seems

#

space is practically infinite

nimble hinge
#

nothing to do with space, only to do with an inherent problem I have mentally.

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

some people ask why am I trying to get it perfect, I ask why are they not 🤷‍♂️

wind spade
#

perfect is relative

#

game has less precision than what you're trying to achieve anyway

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

The actual problem is that I have 316 refineries outputting about 20502 iron ingots per min. I want each station to receive at a rate of 1295/min.

frosty owl
#

That's 647.5 on each line, right?

wind spade
#

a lot of the problems you have are caused by the limitations you impose on yourselves 🤷‍♂️

nimble hinge
#

This is true. But I have all the local nodes and have them producing at the max speed possible and want to load the entire lot onto the least cars possible.

frosty owl
#

What's the output of your refineries? 65?

wind spade
#

well least cars possible is 0, just use belts 🤷‍♂️

nimble hinge
#

haha

zealous tide
#

Fuck it slap an extra car on and leave room for expansion

#

Spend time on something that will actually impact your play 😂

#

I get the desire to have it perfect though.

nimble hinge
#

efficiency is what I enjoy, this is literally how I play haha

wind spade
#

and yeah, better be safe (and account for game's not-precision) than having theoretically perfect setup that in practice will work on 90%

frosty owl
frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

4 impure nodes, 6 normal nodes, 8 pure nodes. total iron ore output 11040/min. 316 refineries converts to 20502/min ingots.

wind spade
#

probably not 90%, although I wouldn't be surprised about that.

#

depends on how much your pc lags 😄

nimble hinge
#

the rate of iron ingots is controlled by the mine output which is a static number, hence the restriction

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

yes, obviously ficsit haven't got half refineries so I rounded up

#

I blame the devs really.

#

no ability to slice fraction refineries

frosty owl
#

That's 1366.8/min for each freight if you divide by 15 though?

nimble hinge
#

(i'm making a bad joke, I know I can underclock)

#

I worked out the theoretical max throughput of a freight is 1295/min

frosty owl
#

Then you need 16 freights, regardless

nimble hinge
#

indeed

#

which require 32 inputs

frosty owl
#

If you want to reach the theoretical celining though...

#

Bruh, that's 647.5/min... balancing that ain't pie

nimble hinge
#

or, it's one mk5 full belt, 2mk2 and one mk3 gives 1260...

#

pretty close

frosty owl
#

How I would approach that though... Would be to balance each line individually, then send the overflow to the 16th freight. Quite obvious I think

nimble hinge
#

put 1260 into each station and the overflow to the 16th.

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

so I have potentially a better solution. Control it on the refinery side.

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

haha nice

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

20 refineries @ 65per min = 1300. which is pretty damn close to 1295

frosty owl
#

You can also play with clock to get the numbers right and skimp on balancing (balances out by figuring out the iron input again)

#

You have no idea how "playing with clock" becomes relevant once you settle on building a "full OC" megabase XD

nimble hinge
#

so 15 groups of 20 refineries 10 per mk5 belt.
final 16th group of 20 refineries underclocked to 80%

#

that makes some pretty neat numbers and is then expandable as much as I need.
20 iron refineries per wagon. train has to come every 123 seconds.

frosty owl
#

How do you make the train course just long enough to take the exact time needed, though? You can't set wait periods to trains, right?

nimble hinge
#

I am deranged enough to add track to make it perfect lol

frosty owl
#

That should work 🤔
Interested in knowing wether or not you can make it in the end, btw

#

It's interesting info

nimble hinge
#

I was surprised it wasn't in the wiki honestly. theoretical max throughput is a kinda fundamental one, the wiki only lists the time to load the platform which is kinda meaningless.

frosty owl
#

Agreed

vast jungle
#

hello

#

I was puzzled about this today too... I think I remembered statistics how long stuff to fill up/load takes, but I couldn't find it...

#

so whats the maximum load of a trainstation you take? 190% of belt speed? 185% ? 180%?

zealous tide
#

By the time tier 10 comes out we're gonna need a quantum supercomputer to get 10 fps

vast jungle
#

Quantumcomputers will not help with FPS 😉
they might just kill most security on the internet

frosty owl
#

I could probably go for 1100 safely, but I don't like how tight the timing for the train needs to be

vast jungle
#

70% sounds like a save bet... unless you plan to have more than one train every 85 seconds...

frosty owl
#

I don't really care about the frequency the trains come in, but I do care about reducing the number of freights as much as possible while still having (possibly plenty) wiggle room with my train's timing

#

Timing is something I really dislike doing

nimble hinge
#

the wagon holds 32 slots. 32 x 100 stack size = 3200 units.
Max fill rate from the buffer container to the platform is 780x2 (2xmk5 belts).
Gives a load time of 123 seconds.
there is then a 25 second down time for transfer to the train.
125 + 25 = 148 seconds total time to be able to get 3200 on a wagon.
Which is 2.47mins.
3200 / 2.47 = 1295/min is the minimum rate to load the buffer container to achieve optimal rate.
Train time should be 2min 28 sec (round trip including loading time) to achieve optimal rate.

#

I think that's my final math on it

vast jungle
#

if you go for that much, putting an ISC on each of the stations inputs might be a good idea

fierce ruin
#

all that just for perfectness

nimble hinge
#

you have to have the containers as a buffer during the train load time. they are essential

frosty owl
nimble hinge
#

It allows you to provide a constant flow rate into the station instead of the surges from the load time.

#

technically you could rely on the internal buffering of the factories, but I find that kinda ugly. Although that'd be more efficient.... oh dear, I'm tempted.

vast jungle
#

and I heared that using both outputs of an ISC can be a bit unreliable at the highest speed

nimble hinge
#

Am I deleting all these containers then? lol

naive ingot
#

Really?

vast jungle
#

I normally use only one ISC per train station, but I keep my input at/below single belt speed

frosty owl
#

Nah, to load/unload freights both inputs are recommended

nimble hinge
#

10 refineries direct to the station, rely on the refinery internal buffer to cope with the station 25sec load time... that's sounding quite neat and tidy

frosty owl
#

Think about it this way: you want items to load and unload as fast as possible from freights, regardless of the rate at which items come in or out

#

E.g.: Even if you need a freight to serve 300/min to another one, it's still best to load/unload with 2 mkMAX belts to compensate any possible hold-up or miscalculation

nimble hinge
#

hmm. But they will be max belts, all I'll be doing is shifting the buffer storage to the refinery internal instead of the isc

#

so the belts surge sure, but the refinery is constant speed

#

it's no difference having the surge on those two tiny belts between an isc, or the refinery and station

frosty owl
#

But when the loading starts, the belts fill up. Meaning there is potential for some refineries (the closest to the station) to fill up on materials and stop production for a while

#

Also, the closes you get to belt limit, the less space the belt has to accomodate for items when it stops (less gaps between already present items to be filled)

nimble hinge
#

They shouldn't though. because they have a space of 100 and they only produce at 65 per min. for 25 seconds that'd be 27 units to buffer

vast jungle
#

yeah, connection from ISC to Station should always be 2xMax

#

it becomes fun when you have to load-balance between all these stations on the receiver side

#

possible, but "fun"

frosty owl
nimble hinge
frosty owl
zealous tide
#

Smart splitter overflow option can be used to build in redundancies

vast jungle
#

I often do... most times its just 4 belts so I can do it with two layers of balancing... but balancing 8/16 or even 32 belts will be interesting

frosty owl
vast jungle
#

if you want to make sure 4 or more incoming belts are balanced, smart splitters are not really helpful

frosty owl
vast jungle
#

hmm... I normally do balancing as some kind of "binary balancing" always balance 2 belts into 2 belts

#

the idea is to get two times (a+b)/2

#

with 4 input belts I first merge two pairs in a first layer, then merge the "orthogonal" 2 pairs... done

#

with 8 belts I would need 3 layers of 3 "pair balancers"... with 16 it would be 4*4

frosty owl
#

Mhh, seems a big convoluted. I generally prefer to balance to reduce the amount on one belt to a specific number
E.g.: Those belts come from pure copper, 750 each. Just need a smart splitter and merger each to downplay them to 600/min

vast jungle
#

doing it for other than powers of 2 and 3 would be more complicated

oblique isle
#

wassup vencam

vast jungle
#

I think my solution would also work for full belts

frosty owl
oblique isle
#

Yea man. Thought you died or something lmao

zealous tide
#

Very possible to balance 7 into 13 or other weird numbers. Just gotta get creative

frosty owl
frosty owl
frosty owl
nimble hinge
# frosty owl Mergers don't prioritize, so some will unload faster, some will back up naturall...

If the refinery is completely blocked for the 25 seconds, it can hold 27 internally no problem. Once released again the absolute worst case is the last refinery in the line doesn't get a single chance to clear it's internal until all the other one's have (extremely unlikely). But in that case, the spare space on the belt is 260/min, the buffered items in 9 refineries are 27*9=243, which will take 0.93mins to clear, in which time the first factory will have produced 60.75 units. 60 combined with the 27 buffered already would put it under capacity at 87 in the worst case scenario, meaning it can never be pushed over capacity by the train docking time even if an insanely unlikely situation happens.

vast jungle
#

take two belts... lets say they have speed "a" and "b"

#

split both in two, then merge them with each other

#

you get two times (a+b)/2

#

when you do this to all belt pairs, you have pairs of two which are equal...

#

now you sort your belts into two groups, each containing the same belt speeds (because you had each speed twice)

frosty owl
vast jungle
frosty owl
#

I think some people still get flabbergasted by the simple fact someone still dares mentioning balancing in this channel xD

nimble hinge
frosty owl
#

NEvermind, it's not worth the effort ahahah
Still, thanks for verifyiing that

nimble hinge
#

In reality it comes down to so many variables; what the mergers do, the point in each refineries cycle time the stoppage hits

cursive heron
#

@twin siren
Encased Industrial Beam
Regular Recipe(6/min): 24 Steel Beam/min , 30 Concrete/min
Required resources: 96 Steel Ingot/min

Alternate(4/min): 28 Steel Pipe/min, 20 Concrete/min
Required resources: 42 Steel Ingot/min

The alternate is slower but needs alot less resources, building 2 assemblers one at 50% for the alternate recipe to get it up to 6/min would only cost 63 steel ingots/min and 30 concrete/min compared to the original recipe. It's imo probably one of the best alts

oblique hollow
#

<@&387163995947270144> Can i get the Wiki and Translation role? I think i put in some solid effort xd

tawdry ruin
#

how many smelters for a single mk2 miner on a normal node?

frosty owl
#

Of what?

#

Unless it's caterium, it should be 4

pseudo marsh
#

when first producing steel about how much should one produce? one Pure coal node worth or 2 or 3?

zealous tide
#

You're going to need a lot of it for awhile, I would say make a plant based on the nodes and leave a lot of room for expansion

pseudo marsh
unkempt grail
#

a single pure node is probably enough
you can always overclock if you need more later

torpid robin
# nimble hinge If the refinery is completely blocked for the 25 seconds, it can hold 27 interna...

the problem with this. id you need to run every belt far below capacity.and thats not very effecient, you would almost need to double the amoutn of belt.s sure doing things on small scale is fine for this. but as as you get to a point and you have say 20 full 780 lines of iron ingots or something. thats extremely ineffecient having to run waaay mroe belts than needed. just easier to build. easier for logistic and easier on the games performance itself to do a ISC with double belt. i feel the things you try to math out is far more effort and far more complicated than its worth

#

thus leaving room for far more human error or miscalculation

#

and itl work for somethign with small production numbers better

nimble hinge
#

It's the same amount of belts with or without the ISC

torpid robin
#

you start getting into things with high production and it gets worse. cause you need to leave space each time the train turns up

nimble hinge
#

I'm not saying don't have a buffer, I'm saying an ISC is an overkill buffer, the refinery internal storage is plenty

torpid robin
#

the reason for the isc though is to be able to run at full belt speed

#

you cant run at full belt speed if you are using the internal buffer

#

and thats a small station

#

wait until you triple that size and have 8 of them

nimble hinge
#

That's my point, it's not that many belts.

#

It doesn't matter where you buffer, as long as you buffer somewhere to acount for the train stoppage. It's already buffered enough inside the refinery, there's zero gain to introducing the ISC in line

torpid robin
#

and well. thats where my poitn was coming in. if the production number is low. say turbo motors you dotn need to have as much spare space. the higher the number. the harder and worse it is to achieve.small scale that works fine. large scale. with high production numbers say like screws. that way isnt very viable

#

cause i do get what you are emaning

nimble hinge
#

Yeah of course, thats why I calculated the worst case buffer situation before removing all the ISC

torpid robin
#

i had run througha ll that in my mind at soem stage lol

nimble hinge
#

for something like screws you'd prob need an ISC as you need a larger buffer.

torpid robin
#

or if you wanna runn full belts. as you say have 30k ingots lol

#

anyway g2g

nimble hinge
#

ciao for now

rotund eagle
#

2+2=4

calm elm
#

I'm currently building a turbofuel factory, and each refinery makes 18.8 per minute. In total, i'm making 846 turbofuel per minute in a layout of 5 rows of 9 refineries. I'm not sure how to balance this out, but I know I need 188 fuel plants. How have you guys done it?

torpid robin
#

i am making that set up 8 times

vast jungle
#

OMG... Copper-based Wire Manifolds take ages to fill up

wind spade
#

You should make wire, quickwire and screws 1:1 🙂

vast jungle
#

not sure the numbers would have worked for this without over/underclocking... but I now just wait until my whole "Motorcity" (20 Rotors, 20 Stators, 20 Motors per minute) is full before thinking about what to do with its output

wind spade
vast jungle
#

maybe next time... I will keep it in mind... at the moment I am Satisfied with looking how the Wire and Iron Pipes slowly fill up the Assemblers

#

but you are right, the "500" input storage of the buildings for Wire is a pain for a Mainfold

#

but its working and it just needs time to fill up... most likely a few hours
but I already have the first Motors/Stators/Rotors in the output train station

nimble hinge
#

Because I know you guys really love belt balancers, I've started work on my 16:16 Universal throughput unlimited belt balancer cup
Figured I'd enter into belt crossing hell while I was at it...

📎 unknown.png
vast jungle
#

I would build just 4 layers with 4 2x2 balancers I think

nimble hinge
#

I thought about doing it vertically, but it felt way way easier to lay it out flat

#

and yeah it's been a breeze really

vast jungle
#

Yeah, but are you sure that this can balance even extreme situations? Like 14 empty belts and two full?

nimble hinge
#

yep, doesn't matter what you put in it'll balance it

#

it'll do any combination of n:m up to 16:16

wind spade
vast jungle
#

I am sceptical such a "ring"design will work... (If I get your design from the picture right)

nimble hinge
wind spade
#

because it's useless xD

vast jungle
#

But it's satisfying 😉

nimble hinge
#

No, it evenly distributes any mines put into the input to the refineries on the outputs

#

I can have up to 16 full belts coming from the mines and plug them into the back of it, all refineries will share the load perfectly

wind spade
#

this is not factorio where miners run out

nimble hinge
#

But balance!

#

I have impure pure and normal nodes

wind spade
#

it will be balanced even if you connect it directly 🤷‍♂️

#

connect pure to more refineries and normal to less refineries

#

each node to the exact amount of refineries

vast jungle
#

I like a balancer design when I have to connect a train station to multiple belt limit manifolds

wind spade
#

no balancer hell needed

nimble hinge
#

but how am I going to have a perfectly ordered factory with weird numbers of refineries

wind spade
#

underclocking

vast jungle
#

Underclocking means even more refineries

wind spade
#

well if you have 14.26 refineries, just build 15 with one at 26%

#

no big deal, no weird numbers

nimble hinge
#

But then you wouldn't have a pretty belt balancer...

wind spade
#

how is that a disadvantage

nimble hinge
#

When your aesthetic relies on absurd machines, belt balancers can only be a force of good

vast jungle
#

Lol

#

So how do you since the issue with train station with multiple terminals applying multiple max belt manifolds?

wind spade
#

there's always other way and in case of balancers - an easier way

wind spade
vast jungle
#

Imagine you have 6 train freight terminals that shall supply 4 times max belt factory inputs... Because of the train station the content you get power station might sometimes differ

wind spade
#

the content will still be the same per car (assuming your trains can handle the load)

vast jungle
#

My solution was to build a 4x4 balancer, so it's more easy to smooth out the leaks

wind spade
#

so if you put 600 ipm into first car, you'll get 600 ipm from the first car

vast jungle
#

My train stations are not point to point

wind spade
#

then make them so 🤷‍♂️

vast jungle
#

I want to have one big station providing "steel ingots" and multiple trains collecting some of them for their factory

wind spade
#

that'll still eventually balance

nimble hinge
#

Really, there isn't a situation I can come up with where a belt balancer is truly needed, the fact everything is continuous and predictable means you can always scale everything correctly. The reason I'm doing it is I guess RP in my head. They are mines, which naturally aren't consistent, they are irregular batch processes compared to refineries which are often the opposite..

#

Also I like the symmetry of every floor in the factory running exactly the same.

wind spade
#

you can still have that 🤷‍♂️

#

(also, you don't need to process everything in one place)

nimble hinge
#

I moved it all into one place so I could have this awesome giant mega refinery.

wind spade
#

also 0 fps 😛

vast jungle
#

Or even less

nimble hinge
#

I mean, I don't really understand the opposition to it, right now there is zero need for the absolute most efficient system. All this iron gets offloaded at the hub and then goes straight into 32 ticket machines. I could just slam a ticket machine on each miner and uninstall the game lol

wind spade
nimble hinge
#

well I'd disagree, having perfectly distributed ore supply across 16 lanes given any input is personally a nice mathematical challenge I'm enjoying

vast jungle
#

Balancing at the belt limit is also math

#

@nimble hinge is your banner organized as a ring?

wind spade
#

sure, but it's useless from game's perspective as it's a solution for a problem that was introduced by the player, not by the game

nimble hinge
#

Playing the game is introducing a problem by the player 🤷‍♂️

wind spade
#

not really

#

the game has solution for pretty much everything

#

players just tend to ignore the provided solution due to some limitations they impose onto themselves

vast jungle
#

@wind spade I disagree

wind spade
#

why?

nimble hinge
#

Yes, I've purposefully imposed limitations to introduce new challenges as I've completed the existing ones in this edition of the game. I placed those challenges to create fun for myself, I don't feel I need the game to lead me to my challenges or give purpose to what I'm doing, I can do that myself :)

vast jungle
#

A lot of solutions inside the game come from the context of the situation

nimble hinge
#

I have just completed my belt balancer and the process from start to finish was fun, regardless if it is ever even used.

wind spade
#

I'm not sure I understand what you mean

vast jungle
#

I spent quite a bit of time designing a space efficient tower for a vertical shared belt... It was interesting and not trivial, but you could argue "use more belts"would also be a solution

nimble hinge
#

Why do you play a game on a hard setting? you impose the difficulty on yourself to feed your internal reward system. Why build a mega factory? it's not going anywhere? For fun. Why load up the game at all; The game provides challenges that you tackle to create fun. For you, getting the absolute efficiency is key, for someone else having the most artistic base is important, for me it's creating something other people may not have tackled for whatever reason.

wind spade
#

I'm not saying that you can't play the game your way 🙂

nimble hinge
#

Oh I know, I'm just trying to explain that I have different objectives within the game. I completely agree with you on efficiency etc. but that's not the goal of this contraption :)

#

I am going to paint it all too... mwhahaha. Take that efficiency!

vast jungle
#

Away for lunch

nimble hinge
#

Pretty sure I've made a mistake somewhere, but meh, good enough. 16:16 belt balancer.

📎 unknown.png
vast jungle
#

that looks like a lot of belt clipping 😉

nimble hinge
#

figure if I'm going to hell I'll go in style.

#

No where else do I belt clip, but this just felt like it wouldn't be fun to try and weave spaghetti

vast jungle
#

I build me 4x4 balancer vertical... but vertical designs are a little bit difficult with 16x16 because you need 8 "layers"

#

or 16 ? hmm

nimble hinge
#

Yeah I started getting lost

#

I figured this would be a manageable system that I wouldn't get too deep in for to last beyond its fun.

vast jungle
#

I wonder if there is an elegant way to shuffle the belt positions around so you easily get all pairs

nimble hinge
#

I'm surprised to not see more of this kind of thing, given how to factorio community was.

vast jungle
#

perfect... Motorcity has done its job... a trainstation full of motors, stators and rotors 😉

glacial hemlock
#

Wow, balancer

oblique hollow
glacial hemlock
#

Are they nested 4x4 balancer?

nimble hinge
oblique hollow
#

i heard you like 4 x 4 balancers, so i put 4x4 balancers in your 4x4 balancers

nimble hinge
#

haha basically yeah

glacial hemlock
#

Lol

nimble hinge
#

except there's a mistake somewhere, the first input only feeds the first 8 outputs, while the 8th input feeds all 16 outputs.

#

belt clipping makes it uh, difficult

oblique hollow
#

use more lifts?

#

not as an output, but for the balancer itself

nimble hinge
#

I could but I just went with belt clipping to prove out the idea first

#

I saw first like I'm building another ha, no thanks

oblique hollow
#

why even is it needed in the first place?

nimble hinge
#

kinda isn't

#

🤷‍♂️

oblique hollow
#

so its for fun

nimble hinge
#

basically yeah

oblique hollow
#

The only valid reasoning for Balancers i know of xd

nimble hinge
#

I have a bunch of mines with differing outputs, wanted them to feed evenly to the stack of refineries. Other ways but I wanted to watch it be all balanced and stuff

#

felt like it's a bit of a shame balancers aren't needed, they were an important part of factorio that was a bit of an art

oblique hollow
#

then again they do take up quite a ton of space the more outputs / inputs you have.
Its a blessing that the manifold manifold just does overflow when one side is blocked

nimble hinge
#

yeah

#

also can skip needing them for many things due to splitters being 3 instead of 2

kindred bane
#

welp

#

im officially giving up on load balancing this

#

its just gonna be a hybrid load balance manifold

#

120 going into 10 machines just doesnt work for balancing

sand garnet
#

120 in 10 machines? what recipe is that

kindred bane
#

casted screws

#

the other 120 is for the second floor

sand garnet
#

but why doesnt a manifold work

#

im confused

kindred bane
#

it works, i just like load balancing EVERYTHING

sand garnet
#

then its not giving up

#

it's doing what you've wanted from the start

kindred bane
#

? i siad i was giving up on load balancing not its giving up on me :p

sand garnet
#

i guess i misinterpreted

kindred bane
#

happens to the best of us 🙂

vast jungle
#

you can loadbalance into 10 machines... its just not that trivial,

#

it would cost... 9 splitters and one merger 😉

wind spade
#

also why not merge 4 screw constructors into each assembler?

kindred bane
#

its iron to con segement, not con to assembler

zealous grotto
#

Hey, I have 22 coal generators running on 120 coal and 6 water extractors, but when I did the math, it doesn't seem right. How in the world is that working?

sand garnet
#

yeah good luck with that

#

consumption scales with power draw by the factory

#

this will 100% fail spectacularly on you soon enough

frosty owl
zealous grotto
wind spade
nimble hinge
frosty owl
#

Bruh, having balanced all my copper production means that now I can check out literally 1 machine out of 100 and assume how everything is working based on that muahaha

#

It needs to be a SPECIFIC one, though

kindred bane
#

i prefer balancing. as vencam siad i can look at one machine and see exactly what the entire system on that segment is doing

edgy vault
#

The only times I've ever needed to use a balancer for input on a larger scale is when there is a recirculating item system that is manifolded multiple times for the scale, like the diluted fuel loop or silica for aluminum. And that's only really needed if you're siphoning off a major portion of the line for other use/storage, like if you pull out full fuel canisters from the system. Can't just shove 780/m empty in before the water packagers and expect them to balance out by the time they get to the refineries

kindred bane
#

plus factory startup time is immidaite rather than having to wait for multiple manifolds to complete

#

plus space is a non issue as i dont do mega factories

#

i do factory pods and truck/train everything into a storage center at my HUB

kindred bane
wind spade
torpid robin
zealous grotto
fierce ruin
# zealous grotto Thanks 🙂

the main problem is... your coal gens arent consuming at 100% because the power isnt at maximum... so 6 water extractors will keep it very happy... when power consumption is below 50%... but when you hit peak power... you will run dry... you need to follow the chart on the wiki page, 22 coal gens is 330 coal*min, and 8.25 water extractors (990 water/min), (11 if you run them at 75% to conserve power)

zealous tide
#

I'm about to start building out fuel generators, what's a good amount of power to have a base and push into trains/nuclear? Do I need to just go insane at this stage and build 500 gens somewhere?

#

Decent sized encased beam and heavy modular frame factory is on the list as well

wind spade
#

It all depends on how much you consume

zealous tide
#

Yeah but I'm sure there's a meta around how much you need to expand through the map in a reasonable amount of time

#

10k?

torpid robin
#

id advise trying to get a turbo fuel set upo

zealous tide
#

Ohhh right right right.

#

I need recipe for that first yeah?

torpid robin
#

but as greeny says all depends on what you want to produce

#

yea there is a total of 4 you need

wind spade
#

I don't think there's any meta, everybody builds differently and everybody has "reasonable time" defined differently

torpid robin
#

heavy oil residue,diluted fuel,turbo fuel,compacted coal

zealous tide
#

I was going to get probably 20 set up on my initial little area, build the frame and beam factory then I guess push into turbofuel?

#

I have diluted fuel and residue already

wind spade
zealous tide
#

Got lucky there. Have probably 7 hard drives to analyze still

torpid robin
zealous tide
#

Polymer res + water to fabric sounds like the perfect addition at my residue spot

wind spade
#

Indeed. But if you're already turning oil into fuel, you may as well make plastic and rubber out of the fuel

zealous tide
#

But turbofuel sounds good. Thanks for the reminder

torpid robin
#

out of 300 crude oil you can make 666.66 turbo fuel

#

148 fuel gens

#

22,222 mw power from that

#

and i mean yea. IG you could use excess for plastic/rubber, persoanlly i dont like that for a say dedicated production line. cause once you startg to use more of the turbo fuel. you wont be getting as much rubber/plastic/ so good for random things.

#

can also use the resin for fabric as well

wind spade
#

No, I ofx mean separate production

torpid robin
#

oh right. ok .makes more sense

#

i was gonna say. didnt sound like somethign you would reccommend. was a bit confused there lol

wind spade
#

But you kinda want to conver everything into fuel and then use part for plastic/rubber and part for power

torpid robin
#

depends how much power you want though

#

like im on west coast. and all that oil is turned to power.

#

so gotta set up rubber/plastic in other places

zealous tide
#

Hopefully I don't get extremely unlucky with hard drivws

#

Yeah im setting up on that coast for power

torpid robin
#

<@&387163995947270144> do we really need this in here?

languid sun
#

Sorry wrong discord chat

dark badge
#

knock that shit off lol

#

aint nobody got time for looking at mike wazowski's ass lol

languid sun
#

I do lmao

cloud hare
#

dont do it here

dark badge
#

keep it outta my nice clean discord of sanity and delayed updates plz

#

thx

cloud hare
#

nothing like a discord server with +30000 members and about 10 mods. very healthy to their sanity

dark badge
#

136,000+. 30k is just online at this moment.

cloud hare
dark badge
#

and with the 4 or 5 mods, thats about 30k per mod ish. gimme that per student rate plz

nimble ore
#

Its not like there are 30k people talking at the same time

vast jungle
#

RIP and Modular Frame production is really awful... the numbers are not really nice ^^

cloud hare
vast jungle
#

not sure thats much better...

cloud hare
#

screws are the most hated thing in satisfactory

vast jungle
#

Stiched Iron Plate needs no screws, but it needs wire

#

WIre/Quickwire is not really better

cloud hare
#

in the manufacturers

vast jungle
#

Modular frame

#

not HEAVY modular frame

cloud hare
#

sry

cloud hare
#

try iron wire

vast jungle
#

yes, I plan to do Heavy Encased Frames... but I need (of course) Modular Frames and Reinforced Iron Plate

#

Iron Wire is not really good... too low output... I prefer using standard wire

#

using copper is okay, I have more than enough of it

cloud hare
#

okay

vast jungle
#

still... Bolted Iron Plate looks okay if you combine it with Steel Screws... one constructor outputting 260 Screws/Min...

#

But the Bolted Frame is 140 Screws... and double of it is above what a constructor can do

cloud hare
#

try to deflate the factory. the smaller and more complex it is, the better

vast jungle
#

I had thought about using Steeled Frame, but the output rate is not as nice as Bolted Frame

#

and Iron Plates? Lets not talk about them, they suck 😉

#

the only advantage of Steeled Frame would be that I can be cheap on Iron Plates... because it needs less RIPs

wintry aurora
#

Still neccesary for things though. iron plates that is.

vast jungle
#

yeah, and no good Alternative Recipe for them...

frosty owl
#

Plastic plates for life.
Bruh, you have the steel, why not going for plastic plates at this point? ^^

fierce ruin
#

Hi I'm kinda new to satisfactory and I just wanted to get some advices on my factory. it is pretty complicated and like a spaghetti mess, how can I make it look better and more efficient?

wind spade
#

more efficient: use some of the online tools in pins
better: that's pretty subjective, but looking in #screenshots and #streams-and-videos (and youtube) may give you some inspiration

wind spade
vast jungle
#

I think I slowly become insane... I consider building a Iron-Plate/RIP from Steel and Plastic and Rubber...

vast jungle
#

you get (as an example) 45 Iron Plates and 45 RIPs for just 100 plastic/rubber/Steel

bleak coral
#

Steel coated plate is really resource efficient, but only if you use the diluted loop and recycled recipe iirc

vast jungle
#

sure

bleak coral
#

And I don't consider doing that worth it to save iron

#

Also consider steeled frame + encased pipes means you can just make steel pipes and cut out beams and screws entirely.

vast jungle
#

its really a joke... I created a factory to produce 300 Steel Pipes... only to discover that one solution to my HMF factory consumes 320 Steel Pipes ^^

bleak coral
#

That's why it's a bad idea to try to do that; make a factory that will satisfy all the needs of one material for everything else. You need to know what, how, and how much you're making first of a product to know what you need. Then because resources are infinite those machines are tied up with that factory anyway, so you might as well just make them as needed.

vast jungle
#

I tried this "make everything from scratch for the endproduct"... I really didn't liked the result

bleak coral
#

I mean you don't have to put it all in one place or make a new steel pipes factory every time you need more; I'm not trying to tell you how to do your logistics. I'm just saying trying to build it out ahead of time leads to exactly the kind of situation you're in now because you're just guessing at how much you need. If you want to build all your steel pipes in one place and leave room for expandability as you need more that's another solution.

vast jungle
#

at the moment I think I will just another floor for more Pipe creation... the input belts are not used at the limit, I tried to be a bit generous with them

#

will be interesting to see if the train station is up to the task to get the Steel

#

its quite crazy how fast 2000 Steel can go away

nimble ridge
#

just finished bringing 1260 bauxite and 300 coal /min to the coast to get ready for update 4

nimble ridge
vast jungle
#

train line?

#

okay, my "not enough Steel Pipe" problem is solved for now... now I have to select a place where I want to build the HMF factory

frosty owl
bleak coral
heavy axle
#

Hey so if I have something set to clockspeed 50% for example does it take exactly 50% of the usual parts per minute?

#

Never played with clockspeed much now and wasnt sure if going over/under 100% caused any sort of weird resources cost shift

zealous tide
#

It will show you the parts per minute below the clock speed. You can click the orange numbers and type what you want in.

bleak coral
#

Do keep in mind we can only have integer clockspeeds so you can't have whatever parts per minute you want. It'll change it to the closest parts per minute available with integer clockspeed.

#

But no, there is no loss or gain in resource efficiency.

#

That includes generators, but the overclock UI is bugged and shows the wrong numbers.

heavy axle
#

Ty Lund

summer mauve
#

Whats the ratio of maxed alumina solution refinery -> maxed aluminum scrap refinery

frosty owl
#

Quite a bad time to ask this... Lemme check my notes

#

111.25 solution refineries to 98.88 scraps refineries

summer mauve
#

jesus christ...

frosty owl
#

Didn't you asked for the MAX numbers?
Why the surprise?

summer mauve
#

I meant for like 3 power cells, im trying to make a sorta of factory but not a whole map lmao

#

I think I could actually work that in; maybe

frosty owl
#

For reference, when I finished laying out the machines to use all the bauxite and turn it into turbomotors (so just baux refinement up to the turbomotors, assuming you already have everything else) those were already 600ish machines
So you choose if you have time before U4 to lay down something that big or prefer to make a small setup

#

Or have I misunderstood what you mean by "ratio of max to max"...? 🤔

summer mauve
#

I meant refineries with 3 power cells

#

Not the totall amount yyou could have lol

frosty owl
#

Ohhh, the power SHARDS 🤣
I thought you were referring to maximized production

summer mauve
#

Nononono lol

frosty owl
#

Well, assuming you're using the most resource efficient alt recipes, it's 200 solution/min output for a 225/min input... Not great, as it's a 0.888.... ratio

summer mauve
#

I don't hhave alt recipes for either

frosty owl
#

Then you can't OC the scraps over 200% as it would clog up with scraps (200% is already 720 scraps/min)

summer mauve
#

oh alright, thanks

#

Akuminum scrap is 720/2, I can handle that

frosty owl
#

Still, the numbers are easier there. 3 solutions to 1 scrap at 100% OC. Easy enough

summer mauve
#

I was just going to have 6 max refineries

frosty owl
#

You can have 4.5 feeding 1.5 if you change clocks accordingly

#

Just remember not to OC the scraps too much so they don't try to output more then 780/min

summer mauve
#

Yeah, every 2 max OC was going to merge into 1 conveyor

frosty owl
#

You can't OC the scraps over 216% if you're referring to those. Only the solution can be OC to max

summer mauve
#

Scraps, max OC, 2 -> one mk5 conveyor

#

w/ 60 units to spare

frosty owl
summer mauve
#

Oh crap didn't realize my shardsa weren't in

#

I think I only need to max out solution?

frosty owl
#

Now it makes sense 😆

#

Just remember 3 solution refineries feed 1 scrap refinery when they have the same clock

summer mauve
#

So for 6 normal, how many OC solution?

#

18?

frosty owl
#

For 6 normal, 18 normal or 9 at 200

summer mauve
#

Thanks

frosty owl
#

That's 7.2 at 250 OC, but I don't think that's a convenient number to work with

summer mauve
#

I'll go for 9 at 200, thanks!

abstract thorn
#

So I'm trying to do the math over here on the most efficient plastic setup for an input of 1800 crude oil.

If I convert it all directly into plastic that's 1200 plastic and 600 heavy oil residue

Or if I turn it all into fuel and prime the setup I can put in a feedback loop on the output of the plastics and have the fuel power 13 recycled rubber and 26 recycled plastic and have a net output of 1170 + converting the 900 resin into 300 additional plastic for a total of 1470 plastic?

Is there a more efficient way to go about this? Like maybe in the original converting that heavy oil residue into fuel and then using that plastic to make recycled rubber into recycled plastic to use the heavy oil residue?

wind spade
#

300 oil can make 900 plastic

#

@abstract thorn

abstract thorn
#

how?

wind spade
balmy warren
#

whats the best way to use 3 pure coal nods to make steel and steel related things

wind spade
balmy warren
#

what about pipes and beams

#

just did a hdd hunt

wind spade
balmy warren
#

but what ratio

wind spade
#

depends on how much do you need of each

abstract thorn
#

Solid steel ingot with pure iron ingot

wind spade
#

start with the end product

#

figure out how much do you need of given end product and work back the resources

#

or use some of the online tools in pinned post

balmy warren
#

maths have been done, 1k steel per min

vast jungle
#

1k of steel is easy to do with Pure Iron Ingot and Solid Steel Ingot

balmy warren
#

yes but tier 3

vast jungle
#

okay, then 1000 Steel is a goal to look forward... but still not that much in the great scheme... you will get there while using Tier 5/6

#

mk2 miners and refineries are enough for it... no T7 tech necessary

balmy warren
#

ive got 3 pure coal and 3 pure iron

frosty owl
#

Plenty to finish the game with good parts/min

balmy warren
#

according to SCIM its enof

vast jungle
#

I used (I think) 3 pure coal, 3 pure iron and 1 pure copper to create >2000 Steel Ingots, nearly 1000 Copper and nearly 800 Iron Ingots...

you see, you already have the necessary resources... everything else is just "progress" and "harddisks" 😉

#

dont forget that the best thing to do with powershards is to OC a miner (or oil extractor)

balmy warren
#

only reasion i would overclock somthing else is fror simetry

vast jungle
#

you can easily reach symmetry with underclocking

pale aurora
#

C is coal
S is split join
P is water plant

#

modular too since it can be expanded further if really wanted.

vast jungle
#

underclocked Water Extractors so you reach a 1-2 ratio?

pale aurora
#

perfect in that one area in the plains, the one near the large water source and 4 coal ore mining spots (one being covered with a bombable rock)

wind spade
#

why not go with the 3-8 setup?

pale aurora
#

really? it works ok for me with mk1

wind spade
#

do you use all 100% of the power produced?

vast jungle
#

if you like "small" symmetry, going 1-2 is a valid way to go

pale aurora
#

im not at the limit of my capacity, its better to have under than over

vast jungle
#

especially if you have more than enough water surface

wind spade
vast jungle
#

just don't get tricked by shallow water GRML

wind spade
#

so if you use 50% of your power capacity, generators will use 50% of their consumption

#

each gen needs 45 water/min, each water extractor provides 120/min.

#

in your case you have 20 gens (900 water/min), two input pipes (each 450/min then, so more than mk1's throughput) and not sure how many water extractors (how much does P symbolise?), but for 900, you need 900/120 = 7.5, so 3.25 per pipe

tawdry swallow
#

I just did 2 pumps per 4 coal for my 80 coal plant

zealous tide
#

You can do 3 for 8

tawdry swallow
#

Only had mk 1 stuff

vast jungle
#

you can still go 3 for 8 with Mk1

#

its just require a bit of creative pipe-work

wind spade
# 
  G G G G
E-+-+-+-+
E-+
E-+-+-+-+
  G G G G
tawdry swallow
#

I came up with prob the most complex way to do it. When I get home I can take a few pics

zealous tide
#

You can feed them by creating a loop that feeds your gens, then combine the 3 extractors into one pipe, and run two pipes from the combined extractors on each side to your gen loop

#

Idk if you can see but there's two pipes coming up from the extractors

#

Then it just loops together at the back end of the last gens

tawdry swallow
#

yeah...my way is 10000x more complex than it needs to be

bleak coral
#

So are you underclocking the extractors or just overfeeding the generators? Cause 1:2 with a 75% clocked extractor also is a solution if you have the space.

tawdry swallow
#

I’m over feeding

#

my phone is dead so I’ll send a pic later

vast jungle
#

mk2 pipes made so many things so easy 🙂

fierce ruin
#

I don’t have it yaaaay

#

H

stark shore
#

Is there any way to split 1 15 line into 5 3 lines?

oblique hollow
#

do you need that specific item amount?
because otherwise, splitter lines would do the trick

#

else, if you wanna be extravagant: use a 1 to 5 balancer

stark shore
#

okay thanks

vast jungle
#

yes, there is a way to do any kind of balancing

oblique hollow
#

1 line of 15 to 5 of 3

vast jungle
#

divide by five...

#

is the belt full at 100%?

oblique hollow
vast jungle
#

exactly... but this only works if the incoming belt is not full

#

otherwise the merger will block

oblique hollow
#

not exactly

#

it will still accept from the left

zealous tide
#

Why the splitter back to the merger?

vast jungle
#

still, with blocking occuring it will not be a perfect 1/5 split anymore

zealous tide
#

Wouldn't that split it 6 ways

oblique hollow
#

aw you edited it

zealous tide
#

What happens if you take the splitter line to the merger off

vast jungle
#

you cannot directly split by five... so you split in six and merge one back, giving you (unless something blocks) 5 equal outputs

oblique hollow
#

then you have 1 to 6 without the feedback

vast jungle
#

if you remove the back-merger you have two outputs with 1/4 and two outputs with 1/6

zealous tide
#

But it will technically be 1/6 6 ways with the splitter even though it splits back in no?

oblique hollow
#

i could go into detail here, but: an infinite series of ((Input +Input / 6) / 6 + Input ) / 6 + Input).... is 1/5

vast jungle
#

imagine it this way... the six splitter has equal output on each port... if you merge one of the ports back into the input, the other ones are still equal and must contains 1/5 of the total

zealous tide
#

Oh duh I see

#

Splitter only gives half

vast jungle
#

because items cannot vanish

#

but it only works if the belt between merger and the first splitter can handle 120% speed of the input

zealous tide
#

Ye makes sense

oblique hollow
#

technically speaking..... if the belt to the left is blocked, you basically are left with a manifold

zealous tide
#

It is technically 1/6th but the 5 lines are equal at least

oblique hollow
#

you still only have 5 outputs

vast jungle
#

if you want to do a "split with back-merge" on a full belt, you must split the backmerge in two and merge them AFTER the first splitter

zealous tide
#

Then that 1/6th is split back in

oblique hollow
#

so the max you can EVER get is 1/5

vast jungle
#

its 1/6 of 6/5

oblique hollow
#

no matter the input

zealous tide
#

Right

oblique hollow
#

yes

#

thats exactly 0.2

zealous tide
#

Yea makes sense

vast jungle
#

with this method you can get any split... just split to the nearest number higher than you want, than back-merge everything you don't need... just don't forget about the belt-limit

oblique hollow
#

i actually wanna see what happens if i reach the belt limit

#

to the secret lab

vast jungle
#

I would guess the 5 outputs become unbalanced

#

but with the "split/merge/split" strategy you can even do a full belt

oblique hollow
#

2 / 3 ratio perhaps

#

idk honestly, time to find out

vast jungle
#

not sure... the merger will let some stuff through from the back-merge

#

yeah

fierce ruin
#

How much on mk.1 one conveyer per min

sand garnet
#

It tells you in the menu

#

What the max of a belt is

fierce ruin
#

Mk.1 60/m , Mk.2 120/m , Mk.3 270/m , Mk.4 480/min , Mk.5 760/m

oblique hollow
zealous tide
#

Mk5 is 780 no?

vast jungle
#

So it stays a perfect splitter just with a lower rate?

zealous tide
#

Weird ass numbers tbh

bleak coral
#

otherwise it just turns into an overflow setup

oblique hollow
vast jungle
#

Wow, this is a really nice result

oblique hollow
#

tested that by using 2 mk 2 belts, since 240 < 270

zealous tide
#

So it doesn't overflow?

oblique hollow
#

on the output side

#

nope

#

always stays a nice 1/5 split

vast jungle
#

Okay, I am offline now, enough mad science for today

oblique hollow
#

the feedback actually stops the input, so it cant go above 5/6 input or output speed

vast jungle
#

Great work mcgalleon

bleak coral
#

oh so it wouldn't just backup and then turn into an overflow setup?

oblique hollow
#

for once, playing with balancers is nice

bleak coral
#

that's what I'd assume it does

zealous tide
#

Ohh so the feedback overrides the original input?

oblique hollow
#

yea

zealous tide
#

So that it doesn't back up?

oblique hollow
#

sorry, you were faster than anticipated xd

#

that nope was for lund

zealous tide
#

So the feedback belt gets priority over the original line getting split?

#

In the first splitter?

#

Sorry merger

oblique hollow
#

both actually have 50 50 input priority, since mergers never prioritize

zealous tide
#

Ohh okay

#

Right makes Sense

oblique hollow
#

so it turns to 270 - (270 / 6)

#

aka 5/6 * input speed

bleak coral
#

oh and then 1/6 would get stuck in a perpetual loop because it can't be added back on to the belt

oblique hollow
#

that stays true for any belt speed at any rate

oblique hollow
zealous tide
#

So you're getting 1/12th from feedback belt and 1/12th from OG input line

#

Since it's splitting 50/50 in merger

oblique hollow
#

not quite

#

the feedback belt only ever delivers back 1/6

#

so input - (input/6)

#

if the belt is at max capacity, of course

bleak coral
#

so the throughput you want would need to satisfy this: (throughput + throughput/6) < max throughput

#

so for mk2 that'd be less than 231 and 3/7

oblique hollow
#

just tested the same with a 2/3 balancer

#

270 becomes 180

#

leftmost is mk2 + mk 1

#

input is mk 3

frosty owl
oblique hollow
#

its just fun how optimized even the odd ratios are

magic shadow
#

come to the dark side mcgalleon

oblique hollow
#

also, mind you, i am the one who invented the freaking CIGO overflow method

#

dont come at me with "oooh, McGalleon turned to the dark weird splitter setup side"

#

ive always been there

frosty owl
#

Ok, alright, I didn't land the meme well enough 😅

oblique hollow
#

i just prefer the easiest solution for a problem

#

most of the time, manifold do this

#

but its also fun to play with this stuff

magic shadow
#

but consider: proportional manifolds ™

zealous tide
#

Yes but I'm saying the feedback belt only loops back 1/12th into the merger

#

In a belt speed limited set up

#

Not that it matters for anything I think haha

#

Because it's split in half with the input right?

oblique hollow
#

its a constant ratio

zealous tide
#

Fuck I'ma have to play with it too

oblique hollow
#

these things only turn evil once you start mixing belt tiers

zealous tide
#

Yeah that sounds like voodoo I want no part in for now

oblique hollow
#

so a mk 1 and a mk 2 belt on a splitter

zealous tide
#

I'm not even at turbofuel yet

oblique hollow
#

thats some truly spooky stuff

#

but i did work out the math for that already

bleak coral
oblique hollow
#

thats the proof that 270 (mk 3) into a 2/3 balancer turns into 180
thats a mk 1 and a mk 2 belt

frosty owl
oblique hollow
#

nope, its equal priority

zealous tide
#

Yeah that's what I'm saying

frosty owl
#

Ah no, I read the next line and got disappointed

zealous tide
#

Then it has to be 1/12th 1/12th no?

bleak coral
#

no

zealous tide
#

That's the part that fucks me

#

How is the full 1/6th moving out of the feedback belt if it's not getting priority at the merger?

#

The input merger is maxed

#

Meaning it has to slow down somewhere no?

oblique hollow
#

if i input 5000 items/min into one merger side and 1 item/min onto the other, both have a 50 / 50 priority of being taken in

bleak coral
#

it splits into 6 1/6ths, and then 1/6th gets merged back, but if the belt speed is too high both the input and 1/6th can't both merge totally, so it just keeps sending 1/6th off back into itself forever

zealous tide
#

So the feedback gets priority over the input

oblique hollow
#

If a merger has 2 items at one on both sides, it takes one, then the other

zealous tide
#

Or it takes half from both