#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 500 of 1

pearl gust
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Aight, had thought that might be the case

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Thanks!

bleak coral
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I am trying to think of a load balanced way, but I'm not too good at them and not sure you can just separate out the 15 exactly

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at least not without getting too complicated

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you could just split it 5 ways and do a sorta hybrid thing where the one needing 15 fills up and then it's balanced

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wait, no I just got it, you split it by 3 and each of those by 3

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that gets you 9 lines of 15, and you can combine 8 of them into 4 lines of 30

pearl gust
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Had considered that to be the easiest option, though only on mk 3 belts, planning to do 2 lines of 135, 2 lines of 150 would be over the mk 3 belt speed

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Yeah, alright, that can work, a little bit spacy, but I got a gap layer

rare swan
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you could do the equal 5 and put a meger before that and a spilliter on the one you want on half

bleak coral
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135 divided equally between 5 lanes is 27

pearl gust
bleak coral
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yeah that's what I was trying to say

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earlier

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looks nice too, I like how you arranged everything

pearl gust
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Then doubled up

topaz hedge
cedar mica
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Fluid only has 1 speed, regardless out pipe

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Number of pumps, might effect it somewhat, but should be just 1 speed

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And of course, the MK2 pipe, is the same as using 2x Mk1

topaz hedge
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ok..

cedar mica
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Flowrate is just the same as products on the line. So if you have a water extractor, you get 120m3/m and thats it. Nothing you can do to effect that, beyond adding more water extractors or changing clock speed

bleak coral
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that's a chart for train round trips for equivalent belt throughput

topaz hedge
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alright. thanks. that doesn't really help me though. I'm just slow and I don't really know how to figure out flowrate/time between stations.

bleak coral
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I don't believe there's a version for liquids, because that's a less common thing to do

wind spade
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yeah you usually don't want to move liquids

cedar mica
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Liquid Train Cars are 1600m3, so 5.3 min to fill with MK1 pipe or 2.6 min to fill with MK2 pipe, assuming pipes are full

topaz hedge
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is it worth it? I need like 6000 water/min at my factory in the desert and I'm trying to optimize my world for better performance. so would using a train be better off in that respect vs a ~1.2km pipeline of 20 pipes?

wind spade
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(or moving the factory that needs water near water)

bleak coral
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^ that's usually what happens

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if you want to move liquids long distances you're a bit on your own

topaz hedge
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Hm. well relocating the factory would result in a different logistic issue. really not any easy solution lol.

cedar mica
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6000m3 water, would be 5 wagons. Assuming the train ride is 5.3 min.

topaz hedge
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I've seen people do fluid trains. what's the math for figure it out?

bleak coral
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same math as to figure out solids, the units change but the numbers are the same

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also wouldn't that be 10 cars at less than 2.6 minutes to transport 6000m^3/min?

torpid robin
bleak coral
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I wouldn't

torpid robin
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i dont like doing the math for it. place a few carts down. and see if it all gets picked up

bleak coral
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especially liquids

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liquids fluctuate

cedar mica
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With MK1 pipe, thats 5.3 min

bleak coral
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that's how many are needed to transport that amount of water, not how much per minute

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the trains would need to be transporting 3.75 cars worth every minute to keep up

topaz hedge
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Same yeti, I'm a little lost as far as how to figure it out.

cedar mica
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Oh yeah, its 3.75 cars times the train ride...

bleak coral
cedar mica
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Too late in the day, to do math, apperently

topaz hedge
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oh it's on the wiki... I was just on there and I didn't see it

bleak coral
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they have it all on the locomotive page, I'm not actually sure that's the best place for it

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you'd think it'd be on the freight station page

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@deft lichen

wind spade
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I'd like it to be separate and referenced from all train related pages

bleak coral
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or that

topaz hedge
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alright. so I need a trip less than 4 minutes, and 10 cars to make this work. that's what I needed (:

bleak coral
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and if you can't keep it under 4 minutes you can always add more cars

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I know there was an equation for # of cars somewhere, but I can't find it now

topaz hedge
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I'll probably spend the week debaiting on it. my other option is to use the water from the ocean east of dunes, right now I'm getting it all from the ocean to the west with all the oil fields.. in hindsight it was a bad idea

bleak coral
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I mean I can suss it out from what they got there now which is

                   Storage Capacity x Amount of Carriages
Throughput      =  ______________________________________
                              Round Trip Duration

Which instead could be written as:

                      Round Trip Duration x Desired Throughput
Amount of Carriages = ________________________________________
                                  Storage Capacity

So I can search for it later: train throughput equations

topaz hedge
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the math is in minutes.. (obviously) yay fractions.

bleak coral
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I mean you can do all the math in seconds and convert to minutes later

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that's what all computers do lol

topaz hedge
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oh.. yeah today isn't my best day of math. I started out mathing for a train car holding 4800 @ stacksize 100.. and worked down until I figured it out >.>

bleak coral
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it is a bit puzzling to me that trains cars hold a different amount than the freight platforms....

dusky dust
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Yeah, it throws me off every time

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I think I've finally managed to internalize it after my most recent lines

bleak coral
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I guess it's so they can handle some wiggle room, but if you have anything go past 36 spots in the freight platform that's a capital P Problem™️

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I know it'd be a buff to trains they don't need, but I actually wouldn't mind if the cars just became 48 to normalize them with ISCs and the freight platforms

torpid robin
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maybe there is a mk2 cart coming out. but the platform will be staying the same

bleak coral
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I guess? 36 to 48 slots would be a rather lackluster upgrade for a whole new thing

dusky dust
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They've got a general rework of trains on their TODO, though I suspect it's probably not high on their priority list

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If we get capacity changes on the cars, I wouldn't expect it to happen outside of whenever that update happens

bleak coral
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true

torpid robin
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yea my thoughts as well

bleak coral
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@oblique hollow and anyone else who's familiar with the fluid max flowrate problem, I'm about to setup up a system that I think could have issues and I wanted to see if it was fine or if I could run into problems.

It's a pure iron ingot line of 40 refineries in a double manifolded system. One pipe, double-ended system with each end being fed 382.8 m^3/min water. Uses Mk2 pipes for everything.

torpid robin
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you would be fine wouldnt you

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cause at the start at each end you are no where near max flow

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by the time they are both reaching in the middle youj will be well below max

bleak coral
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that's what I'm thinking, I'm just not intricately familiar with the problem

dusky dust
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Yeah, I think that would be fine

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It seems to be just problematic (in some semi-mysterious circumstances) when you're trying to max out a pipe, whether mk2 or mk1

bleak coral
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the pipes will be full because it'll fill up as I work on other parts of the factory but no part of the system needs more than that initial 382.8 m^/3 going through it, so yeah I guess I should be good

dusky dust
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It seems like you don't have to go too far below the max throughput before things work quite well. I've heard 95% floated as a pretty safe theshhold (570) though I'd consider the number slightly fuzzy

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(and again, even at full flow, sometimes it seems to work fine) But yeah, at <400/min per pipe, I'd expect it to be solid

bleak coral
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hmmm, I should double end one of my wet concrete lines then just to be safe

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it needs 572.4 water, which seems dangerously close, and it's not much added logistics to just switch that to double-ended instead

dusky dust
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Heh, my 6x Wet Concrete setups is one of the cases in my factory that seems to be perfectly happy with a 100% mk2 flow rate

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Which is one reason why I think that maybe it's related to the number of junctions, somehow?

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6x is fine, 10x trips some kind of limit?

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I still don't feel like I've got a super solid grip on the situation, though, and can't quite shake the feeling that I'm just doing something stupid somewhere. :)

bleak coral
dusky dust
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Anyway, if you've got a 5.72x Wet Concrete setup, I wouldn't personally worry about that one

bleak coral
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cause didn't it first happen with HOR?

dusky dust
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I was seeing it both on a 300/min 10x HOR, and a 600/min 10x Packaged Water

bleak coral
dusky dust
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So in my problem area, it manifested regardless of water or HOR

bleak coral
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that's the one I meant

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hmmmm

dusky dust
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I'd done most of my debugging on the HOR side 'cause it was the easiest to isolate

bleak coral
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could be a rounding error problem after splitting it too many times

dusky dust
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Yeah

bleak coral
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whispers fixed point in the devs direction like I know what the fuck I'm talking about

dusky dust
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Maybe even FPS related? Who knows. :)

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lol, yeah, that's how I feel when trying to quantify the thing.

bleak coral
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I mean like I want to believe switching to fixed point would fix rounding errors because it sounds nice, but I also know nothing about the code and the devs are smart people

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and have probably thought about it

dusky dust
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It's possible this might not have bubbled up to them, honestly. I still kind of think that it's a bug that was introduced at some point post-Update-3

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Because I can't believe that nobody noticed it until a few months ago

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Everyone implementing those 300->900 oil loops would've run into it sooner or later, if they were paying attention

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And I'm sure that the folks first building that stuff out watched 'em quite closely to make sure they were working

bleak coral
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first instance I remember was Bando saying something, which was like what a month before the fluid update/3.6?

dusky dust
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yeah

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I suppose I should probably try to strip a save back and make a nice, simple, repeatable use case that I could send over to questions.s.c

topaz hedge
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I have it happen on HOR, water, and fuel

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I think it went undiscovered on HOR or fuel setups because most people were building much bigger tf powerplants than what they needed, so the problem didn't show up until you got close to capacity, maybe.

dusky dust
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Yeah, I'd still have expected someone building the 300 oil -> 900 (plastic|rubber) setups to've noticed, though, if it had been happening since U3

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I suppose that maybe folks did, but just assumed that they did something slightly wrong and just went about their lives instead of us obsessive weirdos

topaz hedge
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Yeah, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out, but I knew something was wrong with my plastic/rubber plant.. I didn't know that was my problem until someone said something. I had no idea why I had packagers with fuel and empty refineries lol

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Never got around to fixing it either. just built a new plant.

bleak coral
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speaking of weird quirks in the game, wanna guess something else affected by framerate?

dusky dust
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Heh, yeah, I'd wondered that too

sullen cloud
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The thing is that not only maxed out pipes are affected

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Same applies to maxed belts

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I have been testing for 3 weeks now in different manifold setups

torpid robin
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yea i was wondering the same thing about belts. cause i was having problems the otehr day. and i couldnt get things to sink on a full 780 belt. things would abck up. so my thoughts were either the belt wasnt trough putting 780 or the sink doesnt do 780

bleak coral
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belts being affected by low framerate is known issue, though I don't know the scope of that issue

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as far as I knew it was a relatively minor effect, and needed pretty low frame rates to happen

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but serious enough that that's what's holding mk6 belts back

torpid robin
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I tried it with different frames rates . As it it didn’t work when it was capped to 60 . It didn’t work when it was unlimited . It was pretty stable at 110-115

topaz hedge
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if belts not running at capacity is related to framerate, I can say for certain that you don't have to be anywhere near the belt for it to have the issue. In my case, the issue went away if you stared at the belt long enough. - so far I've only had it happen on 1 mk4 belt going from an extractor into a manifold of foundries. I fixed it by upgrading it to a mk5 lol

bleak coral
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you intimidated it into behaving obviously

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wolfgrim uses death stare
....... it's super effective

topaz hedge
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lol.. until i turn my back to it.. and it becomes schrodinger's cat

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... schrodingers belt?..

sullen cloud
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Well, would be interesting what pretty low frame rates mean

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I guess I have 30-40 FPS on average

deft lichen
sullen cloud
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and it does happen with maxed out belts which are not rendered

deft lichen
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I did the math on the electric locomotive page on the wiki, hopefully it's correct

topaz hedge
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thankyou Ondar

bleak coral
# deft lichen What's up? Train throughput?

I'm wondering if there's a reason all the train throughput analysis is on the locomotive page, it feels like it should be it's own and you should be able to get there from all the train related pages

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I've see a few people miss it cause they didn't know where to look for it

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and it's a lot of really good work btw, thank you

deft lichen
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The "Tutorial:Train throughput" page was overall badly written and "Tutorial:Trains" is still not finished for I had no time or will to finish it

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There is no "Trains" page but there is a "Vehicles" page

bleak coral
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game starts acting a bit funny above and below 60 from what I've seen anecdotally

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so it belongs on the tutorial: trains page but it's not finished yet?

minor cipher
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if I produce 333.33 turbo fuel a min, how many fuel gens will I need to use it

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if im not mistaken I'll need about 74

ocean warren
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clocked at 100% right @minor cipher

minor cipher
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yes

ocean warren
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333.33 m^3 right?

minor cipher
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yep

ocean warren
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well, at 100%... they burn 4.5m^3/min

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so yeah, a little over 73

minor cipher
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Im not producing that much yet but I will be, the problem is that I reached my limit of 2000mw so now half my base isnt connected to power

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ah alright thanks

torpid robin
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i get 74.07. so just build 74

ocean warren
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I'm at 15k 😦

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w/ out nuclear

minor cipher
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Tonight ill be upgrading from 2gw to 12gw, cant wait to do the same thing tomorrow

dense temple
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my main save is 44gw, with the second turbofuel setup being built, but i've taken a break from that one, second turbofuel will be making 2000 turbofuel per minute to take me to about 110gw

tame jay
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I think I may be an idiot

sinful vale
tame jay
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I have 10 refineries all pumping out 40m3 of fuel per minute. So they should only be pumping out 40m3/minute right?

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Yet I am saturating Mk 2 pipes

sinful vale
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are you throwing it into gens?

tame jay
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Yeah

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But if I flush a massive buffer between them, it'll saturate a Mk 2 pipe to fill it up again, and it fills it up stupid fast.

sinful vale
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let me guess, your power grid isn't at full consumption

tame jay
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Power grid isn't even close to full consumption. Does it only consume as much fuel as it needs?

sinful vale
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yup

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all power production buildings work like that

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so let me do another guess

tame jay
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This makes so much sense now

sinful vale
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you are making the fuel with hor produced from making plastic/rubber

tame jay
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Oil to Residual Fuel + pellets

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And my pellet production is garbage.

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So yeah, this makes sense.

sinful vale
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ok, good, then you aren't forked

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due to the nature of power production try to avoid having another line that is meant to produce normal products connected with the one that makes fuel

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the fuel will fill up and clog the line, stopping the products too

vast jungle
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Yes, you CAN use the by-products of a fuel creation to create some "additional items", but they should have an overflow sink and you should not expect them to be at full level all the time. Filling up a warehouse is okay, sending them to the next production line is risky.

torpid robin
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HENNING

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i have some WIP for you

vast jungle
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🙂

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About the train discussion yesterday... I found a place in the canyon where I can build a single large train station... but now that I look at it (and the details about Trains in the wiki) I am not even sure what to do with it. It seems I cannot really use trains to distribute items from a source (e.g. resources) to multiple places, unless I allocate each destination a wagon (or even a train)...

Trains look fine for getting stuff from central base to somewhere else, but are more difficult to use when you want to spread out your bases more.

torpid robin
vast jungle
# torpid robin i have some WIP for you

looking forward to see them... its nearly breakfast time, so I will be online/offline for the next few hours in irregular intervals (Still can do "some" discord on the phone ^^)

torpid robin
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il get some SS

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actually let me finish some piper work 1st

vast jungle
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thats why I started my "photo album" on google... easy to add more photos later so people can see the whole thing on one webpage

torpid robin
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im struggling with the buffers on how to pipe them up where i actually want them. you have any SS? of yours for some dieas

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i think i have it sussed. but some other ideas wont hurt

vast jungle
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If not I will do so when I am back in the game

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I just use a double valve two separate the tanks and the production/generators... Fuel is always going to the tanks, but I have to open the other direction by hand

torpid robin
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coolies. i may have made things a little tighter than i wanted. but its worked out well i think

torpid robin
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i need to recruit me some slaves help to build the next ones. this is gonna take some time

quick steeple
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Can somone help me, I need 24 steal beams on one line and I need 13.5 beams on the other line

wind spade
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If both lines need exactly that, you can just split it and it'll balance itself eventually

quick steeple
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no but i mean i make 37.5 steal beams a minute and I need 24 exactly on one line, the other line goes to a massive storage

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do i just set the storage to be an overflow?

wind spade
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Yeah, just smart splitter with overflow is easiest

quick steeple
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OK

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ty

vast jungle
torpid robin
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4 levels. 1 on each corner

vast jungle
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I did this wrong and had to hook up as biomass burner to a pump in my 1st restart 😉

torpid robin
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but the way i have it laid out. it will all flow with gravity anyway

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mostly. and im hooked up to the geothermal anyway which can power like 1.5 of these setups

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what is uses like 1790 mw or something?

vast jungle
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I tripped the fuse in my plant on purpose and restarted it without external help (after I had the bad shutdown experience)

vast jungle
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how steep can a train track be?

vast jungle
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I tried the "2 meter ramp", but this makes the train track clip quite a bit into the ground...

torpid robin
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i come to within 1 foundation and stop. do that at both points . like on the ramp and on the flat. then connect that 2 foundation gap in the middle

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2m is the max it can go up. it wont get up a full one

rustic talon
vast jungle
vast jungle
rustic talon
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That is the first floor of the hopefully soon to be MEGA-Factory

vast jungle
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I have now to think about what will happen if someone wants to use the train station in the other direction...

rustic talon
vast jungle
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NICE 🙂

rustic talon
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I even have a Hyper-Tube transport system, that takes you to the second floor

vast jungle
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working on train switches is annoying... really annoying.

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I don't understand why I sometimes can place a switch and sometimes (near a train station) not

torpid robin
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WOOO POWA

vast jungle
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So u need a straight I piece of a certain length to install a switch on a train track?

torpid robin
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yes

night narwhal
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You don't need straight tracks for switches. I had a mess of a junction that had no straight bits of tracks in site.

But, when you're connecting to the entrance of a station I find you cannot switch on it. You have to have a piece of track before adding a switch, but again, that bit of track doesn't have to be straight.

oblique hollow
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The issue mainly comes up when you feed from one end.
Feeding from multiple points somewhat solves the issue

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But whenever i fed a system from one end, as long as it was below Max Flow Rate, it behaved better than any system at max flow

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Its really odd

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I think it must be the junctions breaking down at very high flow rates

vast jungle
dusky dust
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In my testing, feeding on both ends from a maxed-out pipe was worse than just feeding from one end. :D

bleak coral
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I did already go ahead and build the system, but I appreciate the extra input ^_^

vast jungle
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YES... my first (test-) train station is finished... no power, no belts, but at least it fits where I want it

vast jungle
bleak coral
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@calm flax what do you mean by ratios? when I see that word I see people talking about machine ratios like how many smelters:constructors or asking how much of one resource to another they should make. which are not very useful ways of looking at the game compared to looking at the parts per minute of what you're trying to make and figuring out what you need to provide to make that much.

calm flax
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Sometimes in terms of input / output ratios for example a ratio gets really important based on the available input to required output like for example heavy mod frame....

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A specific example would be heavy encased frame also being build with encased pipe..... where the steel pipe would be limited by local resources so you need to know how much you can allocate and where

bleak coral
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ah, yeah that's not I was talking about, thought I might be misunderstanding you

calm flax
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Well yeah ratios of machines... well isn't that important i agree with you. Just add more until there is enough labour involved to do task....

bleak coral
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when I meant ratio of one resource to another I meant when people ask the more esoteric stuff like "how much rods should I make compared to sheets" with no goal in mind beyond that, like they want to take care of making that stuff forever

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not like "I have limited resources and a goal in mind, how much of the material should I make with what I've got"

calm flax
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I am talking about the... Yu have 240 coal, 480 iron ore, 240 copper ore avilable... whats the best thing to use it...

sinful vale
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besides coal gens i don't like to think of ratios, since it's something that can get screwed over by alts, availability of resources and belt speeds

calm flax
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So i would do clever things like have a factory which switches task when blocked....

sinful vale
calm flax
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Well yes you could just use the tool. But actually doing the calculation yourself also works.

sinful vale
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but the problem is when someone else come to ask for a ratio

bleak coral
sinful vale
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the amount of time that it would take to know about all the variables, they would be better off using a tool

sinful vale
calm flax
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Right but in the later game you are already using a lot of resources so resource starvation becomes a problem for certain types

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and definitely in certain areas....

torpid robin
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if you have used correct alts. its gonna be pretty darn tough to starve yourself lol. not many people are gonna get to that stage

calm flax
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Well it depends how you set things up 😉

bleak coral
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the resources that I could see being scarce are quartz, caterium, uranium, and bauxite

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it'd be tough to run out of the others

calm flax
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and sulphur depending on location. My nearest free sulphur node is like 3km away

torpid robin
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copper

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surprisinly enough

bleak coral
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oh yes definitely sulphur

torpid robin
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and sulphur depends what you are doiong. you dont do mass turbo fuel setups sulfur aint as bad

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uranium you will only run out of if you are going for max nuclear build.

bleak coral
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it's why I go 😔 when I see people use it to make steel

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compacted coal steel is the worst

calm flax
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Well i am using compacted coke in coal gens... its left over from early game

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but ironcially that yields much more steel early on

torpid robin
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thankfully sulfur isnt actually used in production lines

bleak coral
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I mean the fundamental problem with using compacted coal outside of turbofuel or black powder is it's essentially trading 2 coal for 1 coal & 1 sulfur, and sulfur is many times more rare

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it doesn't have the many uses, so I guess if you're not running out from doing turbofuel I guess why not

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but I still give it the side eye

torpid robin
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dead right. coal isnt hard to come by. and production lines dont use a huge amoutn either. combine it with the solid steel ingot

calm flax
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In the early game you pretty much get that only using a single coal node

torpid robin
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tbh you can do all the tiers on 3200kw of power

calm flax
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yeah i know but i wanted to mess a lot with trains in this game :S

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which actually appears to be working really well

sinful vale
bleak coral
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in fact that specific spot has 4 coal nodes

calm flax
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Yeah but i was messing with a different way of playing which is to use up most of the crappy nodes in the early game. Leaving the main nodes complete free for later. So I spawned on the grass fields to the south on the impure iron nodes

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yeah i know it does.... I want to extract them for something else later. Which is why i didn't want to use them

vast jungle
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Does someone has an advice how to deal with overflow in train stations? If I want to deliver let's say iron ore to a station and it cannot consume it fast enough... Can I deliver the rest of the iron back to someone else?

strong sparrow
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you could sink it

sudden lotus
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I don't think there's a clean way but you could smart split it with overflow, rush it to a nearby station before the train gets there and pick it back up? Maybe?

wind spade
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also "simplest" way to overflow train stations is to add another station after the unload station, where you again do unload and everything from the second station goes to sink

vast jungle
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So if a receiver station is (partially) full, the rest of the items will stay in the train?

strong sparrow
wind spade
vast jungle
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This sounds great I will try to test this today

torpid robin
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why are you trying to over flow it? wouldnt it just be as easy to make sure that station you are sending all the ore too actually takes it alol

vast jungle
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This would not help me to distribute my factories over the map

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At the moment I have a huge mess of belts around my main base... I want to replace this with a train network

torpid robin
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i gerenarlly work on 1 node. how ever many carts i need for troughput. and go to just 1 station. i need to get more to a different spot. i just use another node anotehr train

vast jungle
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My problem works be that I have factories that need less than one node... And I don't want to waste (as an example) a full sulfur node in my planned weapon factory 😉

torpid robin
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fair call

vast jungle
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What I am not sure about is also if I should load and unload on the same station... This would only work with standardized train layouts delivering factory products back to a central place after delivering their resources

calm flax
#

@vast jungle Yes. Just let it backlog and overflow. Basically treat it as a manifold and then you can overflow it with a smart splitter on sending end of things

#

Also buffer them on the stations. Use an industrial storage container and double connect it to the train station that will smooth things out a bit more when train is loading / unloading

vast jungle
#

the problem is that (I think) you cannot configure if a certain train should only load or only unload at a station, right?

calm flax
#

yeah but you can put gaps / placeholders in a station like blank section

#

which is really the setting of don't load or unload

#

you can also just leave a station set to load. and don't feed it anything

fierce ruin
vast jungle
#

so if you have one train delivering Ore to a factory its difficult to prevent the output of the factory being loaded on the train

calm flax
#

Well you can deliver ore on the first 2 trucks and then have product loaded on trucks 3, 4 but the ore train doesn't have trucks 3, 4

#

I do also wish the timetable had some more options 🙂

fierce ruin
#

@vast jungle you mean how much items per minute?

#

how much items should each trian deliver*

vast jungle
fierce ruin
#

timetables?

vast jungle
#

Can a roommate define that a train ignores the offered goods and only unload?

#

(I have just finished my second train station and the rails between them, so I have no experience beyond some youtube tutorials with the trains)

#

Putting down train tracks can be a real pain

calm flax
#

I would have some trick for laying track if you like

#

what do you find painful?

vast jungle
#

I am listening

calm flax
#

Which part do you struggle with?

vast jungle
#

Rotating foundations without getting the wrong height... Curved also are a headache, sometimes the don't work because you leave to much space in one side

calm flax
#

the foundations things is a problem yeah... The curves are quite easy. I take it you know 3 foundations is minimum radius?

vast jungle
#

One side 3 foundations space and other 4 foundations space tells you "turn is to tight"

calm flax
#

so like if you want a perfect 90 degree bend. You leave 3 foundtains and 3 foundtains in x and y direction like this

vast jungle
#

That you cannot put a trail switch directly behind a station cost me 30 minutes I think

calm flax
vast jungle
#

When you have dial tracks and want to build a switch between three of them can be a headache

calm flax
#

dial tracks?

vast jungle
#

Dual

calm flax
#

Oh all of my tracks are ring based eg double laid and drive on "the left"

vast jungle
#

Mine too, just that I drive on the right... But still, switching between multiple dual tracks happens, for me

calm flax
#

yeah thats how you build the junctions

#

So you see the corner with the 3 foundtations separations i do the same thing for a split where the stright section is 3 away from the cloest junction

vast jungle
#

I will post a screenshot of mine as soon as I am back at the computer

torpid robin
#

So to rotate foundations . You know the trick of placing down a steel beam and a power shard in the center of the foundation . Delete the one under and before . Then place a 1m found just on top . Then I think another couple snapped beneath . You can get the same height

calm flax
#

So you mean a junction like this?

vast jungle
#

Yes, that's what I built near my oil outpost this morning

calm flax
#

So when thats constructed its the same as a corner if you note the signals in that they are all 3 foundtations away from the track they connect to

torpid robin
#

Oh man pity I’m not on pc . I have some cool junctions lol

vast jungle
torpid robin
#

Try the way I explained . I did a track round the map using that method . Worked a treat

calm flax
#

i think the other rule is no 3 way splits in track

torpid robin
#

Don’t have 2 splits at the end of the same price of track. Or it may be don’t have a small section Idunno how well it goes with long bits

#

Just make. Sure when you place a split . Make sure you get the red arrow thing . Or if you delete a bit with a split and replace again just make sure it’s there

calm flax
#

its about making sure you have a section end at where you want the junction to be as well

#

Its like you create all the tracks in / out first then do the connections between them

vast jungle
#

I think I will build a third station at a resource extraction area near my base and the start experimenting with the trains... At the moment I only setup the tracks, belts will come later

#

I will need lots of programmable splitters I think 😉

calm flax
#

double tracks are stepped by one foundation space to maintain the same radius

#

then create the strights

vast jungle
#

Mine was a little bit messy because it wasn't 90 degree, but it works the same

calm flax
#

so long as you have an equal space and offset for the radius it should work

#

Then I just connect left rail to left section etc.. and work round from left to right on each rail

#

The other major thing i do so save travel time if you have a few supply stations which have feeds for concrete, beam, pipe, copper sheet and some other parts. So if you run low on resources at the other side of the map. You simply send a train for them by creating a train and changing the time table with a temporary station set as the return 😉

vast jungle
#

at the moment all I do is quite close to my homebase... and even my oil outpost has its own concrete factory 😉

vast jungle
#

hmm... does someone know if I can put a "Train Station" on both sides of the freight platforms to allow trains from both directions to use the station?

wind spade
#

don't think so

calm flax
#

dont think so either

sand garnet
#

you'd have to maybe select the other station in the time table

#

because my assumption is it makes 2 stations, not just 1 with 2 entrance sides

calm flax
#

How do you get into that situation in the first place?

#

you could also fix it by adding a reverse loop after the station

vast jungle
#

reverse loops are HUGE...

calm flax
#

6x6

vast jungle
#

trying to find a "compact" version of a train station for dual-tracks that can be used on both directions

#

my best design at the moment is 7 foundations wide... including station

calm flax
#

umm you have 2 track and they both go in a single direction?

#

yeah it will be 7 wide or so. I tend to also put the factory on top 😄

vast jungle
#

no, two tracks in opposite directions... a single station and a "circle" to get into the right direction if you come from the other side... this also means you can switch directions at the station without two locomotives

calm flax
#

you don't always have to have the circle at the station of course it can be further alone. But obviously it makes the run longer

vast jungle
#

this is my current design.. some places are special but I think I will try to make this the "default"

sand garnet
#

im also fairly confident that your junction there in general wont work

calm flax
vast jungle
#

most likely a problem of "remove and redo"... sometimes I get double switches, sometimes I get none

sand garnet
#

yeah like I said, I dont think that junction is going to work

calm flax
#

it works 100% of the time for me but you can't copy exactly because i am drive on left and you said you were drive on right

vast jungle
#

yeah, I have to redo it

#

(the junction)

calm flax
#

what do you think of the loop i have in that? Where there is a track (drive on left) will pass on though onto other locations but the left track the one heading right to left can flip round and enter the station

vast jungle
#

yes, that works too, especially on large factory floor... the train station you see above is above a mining area... no factory at all (just my old coal powerplant)

calm flax
#

closer look station is direction behind me

#

also photo bombed :S

vast jungle
#

I am still thinking about adding a third track to the other side of the station so that a train can skip the station if its "full"

#

have to go offline for now, maybe until later... thank you for your feedback 🙂

calm flax
#

When i started doing this i followed the basic rule of no stations on the "mainline"

vast jungle
#

Yeah, me too... But 8 foundations wide just because of a single train station? 😉

calm flax
#

So a lot of my stations look like this

sand garnet
#

you need at least >--<

calm flax
#

So if i have a number of stations up the line I can have a single reverse at the end of the chain

opaque gate
#

How much fuel does 1 fuel gen take?

calm flax
#

which fuel?

opaque gate
#

Residual

calm flax
#

thats not fuel

sand garnet
#

its just normal fuel

calm flax
#

so 0

sand garnet
#

15 per min

opaque gate
#

Ok thx

sand garnet
#

residual fuel is one of the recipes to make regular fuel

calm flax
#

i though he meant the heavy oil residue

fierce ruin
#

enough to do the entire tier 7 with no trouble

torpid pine
wind spade
#

@torpid pine maybe get some alts first 🤔

fierce ruin
#

it's so tiny you don't need to think about it at all, just build it

#

or plan really well ahead and build something about 100 times bigger

wind spade
#

or get alts now so you can build it twice as large from same input 🤔

torpid pine
#

couldn't find more accessible hard drives

#

so should i just go for it?

vast jungle
#

The only "unaccessible" harddrives are the ones that need unavailable things or have uranium around them 😉

torpid pine
#

and those surrounded by gas

wind spade
#

just run for it

#

it doesn't do that much dmg

vast jungle
torpid pine
#

still not there though

long wave
torpid pine
#

with mk2 pipes

#

not with mk1

dusky dust
#

Nah, I think that would work fine actually

#

The output from the "middle" extractor on both sides will get split both ways, so no bit of pipe carries more than 300/min

#

It'd work just as well if you completely separated the top+bottom halves, where you've got that gray line drawn

#

The top and bottom halves are pretty much separate units, they don't need to "touch" each other at all

torpid pine
#

just try it with one half and see if everything fills up correctly

bleak coral
#

@deft lichen alright so this looks super fake, but you can totally get power draw down below 0.1MW per machine. In fact you can get it so low that it draws 0 power.

📎 20210110122735_1.jpg
#

that's running 9 smelters at 1% clockspeed

#

so it not only draws less power than at idle, smelters go so low it rounds down to 0

fierce ruin
#

now to build an infinite amount of them

deft lichen
#

game UI rounds

#

internally it should still draw some power

#

so it is true: underclocked machines can consume less when operating than when idle

bleak coral
#

I'm not losing any biomass, or if I am it's so slow I can't see the bar move

#

wait nevermind I saw it tick down

#

it's just really really really slow

#

got lucky just then, stared for like 30 seconds and I can't even see it move a pixel

torpid pine
#

how much power would you save by running 100 machines on 1%

bleak coral
#

a lot lol

#

but sooooo much space needed

cursive garnet
#

what % of power do you save by going 2 machines at 50% compared to 1 machine at 100%?

bleak coral
#

it would use about 0.06% of the power

torpid pine
#

how is clock speed an integer if we can have like 185.5

#

or can we?

bleak coral
#

clockspeed can't be 185.5

#

parts per minute is a float, clockspeed is an integer

#

you can input 185.5, but it will change it

torpid pine
#

that's probably why i was confused

bleak coral
#

do it and then go in and out of the machine UI

#

oh right you don't even need to refresh the UI, it'll just change it after you hit enter

#

and if you put in a parts per minute that doesn't correspond to an integer clockspeed it'll set it to the closest thing

wind spade
torpid pine
bleak coral
#

yeah it's a pain, I don't know why clockspeed has to be an integer

#

wish it didn't

#

can make for some weird stuff if you're splitting up production to get machines setup logistically how you want, cause the more places you change clockspeed the more rounding errors you've got

wind spade
#

because someone somewhere decided it's an integer and it's hard to refactor now 😉

bleak coral
#

most likely lol

wind spade
#

tbh I don't see it as a big issue

bleak coral
#

it's definitely a minor, nit-picky issue

#

be nice to have, but bottom of the list kind of thing

torpid pine
#

it's only an issue when you want a perfectly efficient factory

#

and the numbers are like thirds of a building

bleak coral
#

well we'll never get 100% precise with fractions of 3

#

because we use a base 10 system which doesn't represent those completely accurately

torpid pine
#

but 99.99 is better than 99.9😉

bleak coral
#

or 99%

#

definitely adding 2 decimals places of precision to the clockspeed would make the issue completely noticeable

wind spade
bleak coral
#

that's also true

#

as a side note it can be argued that 0.9 infinitely repeating is 1

#

not rounded up, but is 1

wind spade
#

indeed, no disagreement there

vast jungle
#

now I have "just" to add a million pillars to support the floating track... and then add the belts to make USE of the train network.
And maybe connect the two ends of the network

sullen cloud
#

don't be afraid young padawan. a lot will follow

vast jungle
#

not sure its worth the effort to build a "staircase" for my train network... the canyon is quite deep and there is no good way up/down on the right side where my "oil city" is

sullen cloud
#

I prefer the natural roads for most of my network, I have 3-4 spirals tho

vast jungle
#

me too... thats why I went that far to the left... the track is still floating, but it follows a road

#

But soon it will have pillars and all kinds of decorations 😉

#

Hmm, I remember there was a canyon to the right down from the green area to the canyon. Have to check this out tomorrow if it's wide enough for two train tracks

wind spade
sullen cloud
#

the 'roads' function in the interactive map is quite helpful

vast jungle
#

I wonder how the signals for trains will work in the game

sullen cloud
vast jungle
#

Wow

visual bobcat
#

someone have a clear design for tier 1?

vast jungle
bleak coral
#

it's a popular place to put nuclear waste

sullen cloud
#

yeah, that's a leftover from my 1m MW nuke setup

wind spade
#

straight lines > circle

sullen cloud
#

when you say straight lines, you mean double-headed trains?

wind spade
#

I mean A <=> B trains

#

doesn't matter if single headed with U-turns at stations or double headed

vast jungle
#

I want to use my train network as an universal resource, so it will become a mesh, going everywhere

sullen cloud
#

tbf, so far I am only using automated trains with two stations (A-B)

#

I do not see any value added by roundtrip ones with several stations

vast jungle
#

Dammed auto correction

fierce ruin
#

I designed a little blueprint for making screws and then appropriately splitting them off to some other factories to make other products.
Does anyone see anything wrong with my design ratio thing?

📎 unknown.png
#

the 60/s storage is just sending it off to a storage container, or possibly another reinforced plate machine.

wind spade
#

I wonder what belt you use that you can move 60/s

fierce ruin
#

mk1

#

60 per second

#

that's sounds nice actually :D

bleak coral
#

oh haha

fierce ruin
#

yes, everything in my diagram is labelled in items per second

bleak coral
#

the numbers are per minute

fierce ruin
#

uh

#

wait i did not consider that

bleak coral
#

it's just 60x slower than you though, no big deal 😛

fierce ruin
#

oh ok

bleak coral
#

can't do anything about it anyway

fierce ruin
#

let's assume "s" means minute

bleak coral
#

numbers are all the same, just per minute instead of second

wind spade
#

yeah that's kinda fast mk1 belt xD

fierce ruin
#

oh yeah, the belts are also per minute, so yeah my diagram should still work, just incorrectly labelled

#

well they showed some incredible belt speeds on one of CSS videos, I bet one of them is around that much

wind spade
bleak coral
#

our fastest belt is 13 per second if you do it in seconds

fierce ruin
#

yea

bleak coral
#

and even storage, mergers, and splitters have a hard cap at 2000 parts per minute, which would be about 33.3333 per second

fierce ruin
#

ah ok

#

but still nonetheless, I did ratio my stuff correctly, yeah?

#

@wind spade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeYAFCJ0N3I the one before the last one is already near 60/seconds since watching the video at 60fps shows no clear sign of movement, also I bet the last one is like 120 items per second

bleak coral
fierce ruin
#

tho you are right if we are talking about look and not numbers

#

uh, not even, I think the last ones are looking like a mk6

wind spade
#

since they all look the same

fierce ruin
#

yup

#

hey I just noticed

#

they all go in pairs

#

you have 2x mk1, 2x mk2, 2x mk3, ... , 2x mk6

deep compass
#

what have mk6

#

conveyors

sand garnet
#

Nothing has mk6

fierce ruin
#

it existed at some point in the wiki
but since jace said data-mined stuff wasn't accurate at all, they removed everything

oblique hollow
#

Mk 6 is a myth by the FBI

deep compass
#

haha ok

fierce ruin
#

it was fast enough for fully overclocked mk3 miner on pure node

deep compass
#

jeez thats a lot of ore

fierce ruin
#

1200 item/min or something iirc

#

and I think the side things were a lil bit bigger

deep compass
#

what did you use to build them

fierce ruin
#

also the ridges were in the shape of small lines instead of >> arrows like mk5

#

1 alclad + 1 heat sink

fierce ruin
wind spade
#

it was accurate at the time, but everything since changed

fierce ruin
#

because data-mined stuff are things they are working on, so it will most likely change

#

jace said that only a single thing among all those was right

#

we dunno which one tho

wind spade
#

knowing how much jace likes to troll, it's probably "there's mk6 belt" or something

deep compass
#

we dont really need mk6

#

right?

fierce ruin
#

yes we do

wind spade
#

we don't

fierce ruin
#

for 250% pure mk3 miners

#

like, you can't do otherwise

deep compass
#

well ok for that maybe

wind spade
#

need? hardly. Have you maxed out the map yet?

deep compass
#

nope

fierce ruin
#

define maxed out the map yet?

deep compass
#

i only have about 100 hours

wind spade
#

used most of the resources on the map in most efficient way

fierce ruin
#

ah

deep compass
#

not at all

fierce ruin
#

well you could make more that 156 turbo motor per minute, doesn't that sound awesome? (jk, not at all, this is frightening)

deep compass
#

im barely advanced at all

wind spade
#

then we don't need mk6 😉

deep compass
#

ya mk5 is plenty

wind spade
#

afaik there's only handful of people who did it

deep compass
#

how many hours do you all have?

fierce ruin
#

I have everything needed to have mk3 miners but I didn't have placed a single one yet lmao

wind spade
#

and at that point the game is pretty much unplayable anyway

#

I have like 40 hours, out of ~15 ish is gameplay

deep compass
#

what tiers have you unlocked

fierce ruin
#
  1. overproduce the last elevator parts
  2. throw them into the sink
  3. buy turbomotors
  4. how to skip tier 7 101
deep compass
#

do i need to unlock tier 7 and 8 first

dusky dust
#
  1. cry when you decide you do want to go for the Golden Nut statue
fierce ruin
wind spade
#
  • start new game
  • find items around drop pods
  • sell them for tickets
  • buy turbomotors
  • sell turbomotors
  • buy turbomotors
  • sell turbomotors
  • repeat until it's no longer profitable
fierce ruin
#

if only lmao

deep compass
#

how do i get turbomotrs unlocked

fierce ruin
#

that makes me wonder if you can beat the game using only tickets (once you have the sink milestone unlocked ofc)

wind spade
#

don't think so

#

I think it's not even close

fierce ruin
#

yeah probably, sometimes the numbers required are quite big

bleak coral
#

sink and buy strat is what the speedrunners use for first elevator delivery

#

but they're done after that, it's hardly sustainable

deep compass
#

what recipe do i need

#

like an alternate recipe

#

for the turbo motor

fierce ruin
#

nah, milestones

#

in the tier 7

wind spade
deep compass
#

oh

#

what is that

fierce ruin
#

wait, how many hours do you have

deep compass
#

100

fierce ruin
#

oh, ok, as much as me

#

then I didn't understood the question, if you mean the website it's just a bunch of tools (as the name implies) for factory planning and stuff

deep compass
#

ok

nimble ridge
#

im currently sitting at a cozy 560 hours lol

tired raptor
#

Im sitting at 111 hours after two weeks, haven’t started production for the space elevator for t7 yet lol

deep compass
#

same speck

cursive garnet
#

I have 960 turbofuel/min, how many fuel gens do I need to max it out?

#

The formula tells me I need 133.33 but when i just divide 960/4.5 I get 213.33

wind spade
#

what's "the formal"?

fierce ruin
gray flower
#

i am much more than 20 hr and 11hr

azure wedge
#

So not including the cracked boulders, does destroying objects help or hurt the computation numbers? Like if I destroy every rock (regular non-cracked) that I can through nobelisks will it take more computer power to play?

wind spade
#

It won't. There may be some difference in GPU computing power but it's so small compared to everything else that it doesn't matter

bleak coral
fierce ruin
#

oh, that explains while I join a game with my garbage connection I see foliage everywhere then it slowly disappears

#

that might also explain why the forest respawned in our hub

bleak coral
#

oh that's another issue, some flora respawns when it's not supposed to

nimble ridge
#

whoa

#

i might just make a new save and do everything off the ground, never cut a single tree or bush

#

and just never use biomass

#

it wouldnt be too hard to get to coal without harvesting a single plant

bleak coral
#

you'd have to do animal parts instead, but sure it's doable

nimble ridge
#

animal parts until you unlock the sink, then you buy biomass with coupons

#

i mean unless you are trying to get the golden nut or something, in which case maybe dont do that

#

im sure that with -alot- of underclocking it can work

#

and seeing how big of a drawback it has on autosave times, multiplayer join speed and save file size for a guy like me with 600 hrs its kinda worth it

azure wedge
#

@bleak coral I appreciate the answer. @nimble ridge You have suggested an interesting playthrough idea.

vast jungle
nimble ridge
#

so could laying foundations over all of them so you cant see them

#

which would be much less resource intensive

#

or just lower the foliage quality, lol

#

we arent talking about polygon count here though, because that only effects client-side render speed and unless you're playing on a shitpc that isnt relevant

vast jungle
#

has someone already combined stacked (on top of each other) train stations with directly attached train track spirals? I feel this could be a good combination... train stations are 5 foundations wide, a spiral is six foundations wide... so there could be a "bypass" track on each train station floor, as long as you don't put it on the side with the belts.

calm flax
#

@vast jungle I have thought about it....

torpid robin
#

if you leave enough space between the levesl. you could drop directly below . then run the belts on the underside of the foundation

vast jungle
#

I plan to put nothing on the "belt side" of the stations, so I can easily add stuff I need for logistics later

#

the reason I want to move to "spiral stations" is to put (at least) two stations on top of each other... one for loading and one for unloading... this makes it much easier to use a station for multiple things

calm flax
#

yeah i am having the same problem. I am considering a number of different options. I was thinking of keeping builds highly distributed but i suspect this has problems with high rate items and would have to be a multi drop system eg cable produced at A would need to deliver to B, C, D, E etc.. until it runs out of cable

#

This would keep the station count requirement down to a max of 2 stations for constructor style builds 3 for assemblers and 5 for manufactors.

#

I don't suppose anyone know how long it takes to load a train station with a mk5 and stack size 100?

oblique hollow
#

You just need the number of slots of a station to calculate that

vast jungle
#

The wiki has the numbers

oblique hollow
#

Slots * stack size / items rate

vast jungle
#

main issue with outgoing stuff is how a train selects what it needs... if I have a station offering "iron ore" and "copper ore", how do I make a train that only takes the Iron ore

calm flax
#

yeah you need 2 stations or multiple trucks

torpid robin
#

i thinbk you are trying to complicate it far too much. with what train mechanics we have currently. its pretty much 1 cart 1 item

vast jungle
vast jungle
torpid robin
#

oh are you meaning you have that

vast jungle
#

my idea was "1 car position for each type of item"... and then maybe run trains with "fluid cars" at certain slots if your don't want a specific item.

calm flax
#

It depend on the item volume. You can use shared trains. But not for high volume items....

#

ahh thats a nice idea of how to ignore a slot 🙂

torpid robin
#

yea i see what you are doing. i think the fluid cart way would work

#

cause then on the copper train. youd just put a fluid cart where the iron is

oblique hollow
#

I remember that trick from one of smerkin's video tutorials

vast jungle
#

Receiver side can be just dealt with "programmable splitters"... just offload everything and sort it later

torpid robin
#

tis pretty clever

vast jungle
# torpid robin tis pretty clever

thank you... got this idea yesterday on my own while thinking about how to make my train network work... without building a gazillion stations

calm flax
#

Transport is quite messed up tbh. Cause transporting wire is way more efficient that transporting copper ore for example. Cause for wire the stack size is 500.... even though you get 2 wire per ingot/ore

torpid robin
#

yea. im kinda just building a "gazillion stations" lol

vast jungle
#

I lack space around my main-base... I hope to put two or three stations on top of each other... and maybe two behind each other

calm flax
#

I am trying to avoid the congested space problem of having lots of stations in one p place by being highly distributed which is why i am looking at thoose numbers

#

So I don't really have a "main base" I have a "starter base" but behaving more like a nomad 🙂

torpid robin
#

i kinda planned for it. under my base there is a 135x135 space set aside just for trains.

vast jungle
torpid robin
#

you may struggle lol

vast jungle
#

my new Supercomputer factory became larger than my main base

torpid robin
#

sounds about right

#

time for a new base

vast jungle
#

yes... but I still need to deal with all the pure nodes in the area...

#

4 pure iron, 2 pure copper and 2 pure quartz... these need to be carried away if I "abandon" the place

torpid robin
#

you cant just make some nbew items there and ship the items away?

calm flax
#

Ok so a train of 4 cars using mk5 belts and a stack size of 100 has 32 slots per car. Which is 128 slots total which can carry 12800 items. Which when filled at mk5 belts takes 16.4 (Call it 16 minutes) ?

vast jungle
#

each train station can have 2 belts... (both incoming and outgoing)

calm flax
#

yeah but you gotta get the stuff "away" at some point

vast jungle
torpid robin
#

fair call

calm flax
#

A train station can't do 780 * 2 directly because it blocks for 25-30 seconds

vast jungle
#

at the moment I have a factory floor for Motors and one for Heavy Modular Frames... and both separate overflow of intermediate items to a shared belt

torpid robin
calm flax
#

Yup which is why I am betting on a safty margin of 780 items per minute

torpid robin
#

yea fair

calm flax
#

but of course if you are using 4 cars its really 4 * 780 which means a fill time of 4 minutes

torpid robin
#

whan you use trains. do you have all your carts full?

#

or say 3 full and the one at the end maybe half

#

or you just split things up so all maybe 3/4 full

calm flax
#

well trying to get them as full as possible but i am thinking of multidrop eg produce N * 780 of concrete at site A then drop concrete at B, C, D, E etc....

#

So i want to know how long my train run can be based on produced rate so it can be consumed

torpid robin
#

na i mean for the throughput of a train from one location. like i kinda just split the belt into multiple carts. so if it takes everything every time im alg. but some of my carts are maybe 3/4 full. but i have also seen it. where people kinda over flow it a little. like from one platform to the next.. but then you cant use the double belt buffer?

vast jungle
#

might make sense to add a Industrial Storage Buffer for each unloading station... just to get stuff out of the way.

torpid robin
#

you need to do the stuff for the loading too.

#

so say everything is full and you are loading. your miner for example will stop

#

if it stops you arent getting the true amount

#

same thing for a factory

vast jungle
#

okay, so "default design" should have a container for every station...

calm flax
#

Yeah i started splitting stuff across the length of the train. But I wanted to know how long hte train would be for how far it is transporting stuff

torpid robin
#

right ok. so im not too far off then

calm flax
#

or how many stops along the way it can make....

vast jungle
#

if only one belt delivers to the station (a certain item type), you can easily put a manifold in place to separate them

torpid robin
#

i kinda just watched it anfd went for a ride to figure out how much i needed lol

vast jungle
#

for raw resources a belt per miner might be better

calm flax
#

yeah i am calculating up front because i have a habit of building factories on top of the stations which also happen to be on top of the node

torpid robin
#

i know for a 780 i need 3 carts to get it from grasslands to my base

calm flax
#

where abouts is your base?

torpid robin
#

and just work off that rule

#

desert

calm flax
#

ok thats not so bad but i uessit depends on route as well?

vast jungle
#

north coast near the fjord... its "between" the four raw iron nodes

torpid robin
#

yea i suppose it would. its pretty direct and makes no stops along the way

#

speaking of. god stations are expensive

#

my mod frames aint liking

calm flax
vast jungle
#

I just feel tiny 😉

torpid robin
#

id feel bad if i put mine up then lol

vast jungle
#

I like removing things to make them "better" (for changing definitions) but I never setup really big production lines... even my Supercomputer factory just powers two Manufacturers in the end... but the first floor is full of 32 Refineries 😉

calm flax
#

I kinda hate rebuilding things and tearing them down. But I want to be able to work around things by re-routing the supplies. Which is why the highly distributed strategy

torpid robin
#

This map is taking so long to load 😂

vast jungle
#

🤯

torpid robin
#

currently working in grasslands to suck the area dry of every resource

torpid pine
#

if I need 1.4 buildings for something what is better, 1 at 100% + 1 at 40% or 2 at 70%?

torpid robin
#

2 at 70% i think might use less power?

#

im not sure you would have to do it an check

final spoke
#

Yeah, I believe underclocking uses less power

#

iirc overclocking to 200% uses more than 200% the power

torpid pine
#

it does but what will be more effective? splitting the underclocking or having only one building underclocked

final spoke
#

Isn't it some sort of balance?
Depends what you define as "effective". From an energy POV - 2x underclocked buildings should be better (i'll check), but it comes at the expense of 2x the materials for the building

#

So 2x smelters is no biggie, but 2x manufacturers can be tricky if you do not have everything set for them

#

So here's the numbers for a constructor:

100% - 4 MW
200% - 12.1 MW

70% - 2.3 MW
140% - 6.9 MW

#

2x 70% = less energy than 1x 140%

#

because scaling is not the same when overclocking

fierce ruin
vast jungle
#

In fact Overclocking is the same as Underclocking... if you concentrate the Change in clockrate, you get more away from the baseline energy cost than if you distribute the clockchange.

its just that with Underclocking you want to get an extreme result and with Overclocking not 😉

torpid pine
#

so power wise it's better to spread underclocking but it's easier to underclock one?

fierce ruin
#

no

#

power-wise and easiness-wise it's better to underclock a single unit

#

for overclocking tho it's better to spread evenly

vast jungle
#

the results from underclocking AND overclocking are more extreme when you concentrate them in as less machines as possible

#

when saving power you LIKE extreme... when wasting power, you don't

sand garnet
#

is that really true though

#

100 machines at 1% are better than 1 at 100%

vast jungle
#

lets say you have two machines...

75% + 75% (distributed UC) is not as energy efficient than 50% + 100%, right?

sand garnet
#

you're referring to 'as few machines as possible' though

vast jungle
#

I think my "rule" breaks because of the 99 machines running at 0% 😉

sand garnet
#

what do you mean at 0%

#

im confused

vast jungle
#

the idea behind the statement was that the gain of more OC/UC on a single machine will be more than linear... this means if you distribute the OC/UC, you get less change compared to the baseline

sand garnet
#

15MW at 100%
4.94815MW at 50%
0.00946 MW at 1%

vast jungle
#

because distributing the same OC/UC on multiple machines is a linear effect

sand garnet
#

so 100 assemblers at 1% would consume 0.946MW combined

vast jungle
#

yes

sand garnet
#

2 at 50% would consume 9.8963MW

vast jungle
#

with underclocking, its good to get as "extreme" as possible...

#

up to the point that you even gain more by adding more machines.

sand garnet
#

so that would mean that "the results from underclocking AND overclocking are more extreme when you concentrate them in as less machines as possible"is inaccurate

#

as it only applies to overclocking

#

not underclocking

#

hell, it doesnt even apply to overclocking right

vast jungle
#

or it would need an "considering a constant number of machines"

torpid pine
sand garnet
#

2 at 125% = 21.43617MW x 2 = 42.87234

#

but 1 at 250% = 64.98233 MW

fierce ruin
#

yeah that's power

sand garnet
#

so 'as few machines as possible' also doesnt apply to overclocking

fierce ruin
#

126% and 133% of a given building power

vast jungle
#

eyerolling

sand garnet
#

am I just misinterpreting your comments entirely from before? lol

vast jungle
#

maybe... or I got not enough sleep this night...

sand garnet
#

probably me actually

#

hahaha, nvm me being an idiot getting everything wrong regarding how to interpret it

vast jungle
#

but lets forget of your misinterpretation and my lack of sleep and focus on what Padfoot said...

#

50%^1.6 = 33%
75% ^1.6 = 63%

100% + 33% > 63% * 2

#

(I am voting for "lack of sleep")

torpid pine
#

so splitting UC it is?

vast jungle
#

I fear the answer is "its complicated"

#

but you are most likely right

#

yes, you should be right (checked for 2-4 machines)

still, that only applies if you keep the number of machines the same

#

not sure about the general case

#

from the "easy" point of view, I would just underclock 1 machine, because its much more difficult to get wrong 😉

#

and much easier to readjust later

#

the final option would be "don't underclock at all" but put in a smart-splitter to siphon off the additional by-products for your warehouse

wind spade
#

example: 3.4 constructors:
3x 100% + 1x 40% = 3x4 MW + 1x0.92 MW = 12.92 MW
4x 85% = 4x3.08 MW = 12.32 MW

#

@fierce ruin

fierce ruin
#

uuuuh

#

why do I have different numbers

#

oh no, my numbers are right I just don't know how to read

fierce ruin
lapis steppe
#

It's not really math, but if there are any super smart people who can code well, (https://steelseries.com/developer) Satisfactory with Steelseries GameSense would so sick. Nobody has to do this but I thought I should let people know in case they have spare time or anything idk thinking_helmet

night jay
lapis steppe
wind spade
#

would probably require access to game code. Not sure how much this is doable with mods

shadow prairieBOT
torpid pine
night jay
#

When your power short circuits all of your LEDs shut off

#

honestly that's all I need

wind spade
#

so when your power breaks, you don't see your keyboard and have it even harder to fix it?

night jay
#

correctamundo

#

though for me at least I'm a touch typist and don't need to look at the keys to play, just to type really long essays sometimes

lapis steppe
wind spade
#

when your power trips, your pc shuts down.

lapis steppe
#

The obvious one is health bar, displaying that

#

YES

#

When, you're building the colours will fade from a green (or whatever) to red depending on how much materials you have left

torpid pine
night jay
#

hm. This must be why I'm not a programmer

lapis steppe
#

or maybe just not all of them, assign different devices to different power grids maybe

night jay
#

the left side of your keyboard shuts off when one power grid goes out

#

this sounds very chaotic programming though

lapis steppe
#

yes thank god im not a programmer

#

does anybody know one

sand garnet
#

try the modding discord, link is in #welcome

lapis steppe
#

Thanks!

vast jungle
#

I just had an idea how to put two trainstations quite close behind each other...

#

for some turnaround circle or elevator spiral you need at least 6 foundations wide... but stations are only ~4 foundations wide

#

if you build one station to the left of the 6 foundations, then leave 2 foundations space in between, then put the next station on the right side of the 6 foundations you can pull both the tracks the two stations in the middle away from each other

oblique hollow
#

and this achieves.... what?

boreal shuttle
#

@vast jungle stop

vast jungle
#

getting two trainstations with independent in/out behind each other within 6 foundations wide with only 2 foundations separation

#

I am experimenting with a few ideas to get stations efficiently behind each other and on top of each other... to minimize footprint

oblique hollow
#

Id rather just use 2 different freight platforms

#

also elevator spirals can fit on 5 x 5

vast jungle
#

how? everyone is talking about that a tight 90° angle needs 3x3

oblique hollow
#

i have a spiral that has the tracks on almost eactly the edge of my foundations

#

and its only 5 wide

#

ill send a picture shortly

vast jungle
#

the smallest I manage to build on the ground is a little bit wider than 5 foundations... not quite six, but more than 5... and I cannot assemble it from 90° pieces

sullen cloud
#

The tighest turn for 90 degrees is 2.5 foundations

#

since the introduction of trains

vast jungle
#

wait... 5x5 measured from the middle of the rail or 5x5 including both sides of the rail?

night jay
#

To create a train spiral you have the train run upwards on ramps that go around the 5x5 foundation space

#

you can have a single column in the middle of the square that the train essentially circles upwards or downwards

oblique hollow
#

^

vast jungle
#

this is a bit more than 5... I would guess 5.2 or 5.3

#

but definitely less than 6

fierce ruin
#

more like 5.5 imo

night jay
#

I'm pretty sure I have it perfectly on a 5x5

#

ill take a screenshot when I get back on my PC

vast jungle
#

This is was I was talking about... two trainstations on the same 6-wide platform with only two foundations separation... and you still get the two tracks in the middle around the other station.

📎 Screenshot20210111-20122500000.jpg
#

on both ends I will add a train spiral, so the stations can stack on each other

wind spade
#

uhhh train spirals 🤢

bleak coral
#

what's wrong with train spirals?

wind spade
#

don't like the look, not much realism. Station on top + station on bottom with lifts are much better imo

night jay
wind spade
#

pretty much 30+ second spirals are slower

night jay
#

Good, cause my current spiral is literally like 100+ foundations tall

#

and i do hate the look of it

oblique hollow
#

i only have that spiral for test purposes

#

much easier to build than a stupidly long slope

bleak coral
#

I always considered spirals an aesthetic thing you do for fun if you like the look

#

the double station with lifts between is definitely higher throughput

night jay
#

My caveman brain didn’t think of the thing greeny said. Otherwise I would’ve done that.

lilac escarp
#

hey guys, I have been brainstorming about this first oil setup I am about to make. I have 240 crude oil coming in from a pure crude oil node.
I am thinking of 8 refineries, 4 each for plastic and rubber. That should give me 80 rubber and 80 plastic. The 120 heavy oil residue is what is spinning my head. I am thinking of feeding it to three refineries to produce petroleum coke from each resulting in 360 petro coke at disposal for power generation. Should I be making less of this petro coke and use more of heavy residue oil for something else? Please help I have been puzzled since two days now haha

oblique hollow
#

the main usage is really either petroleum coke or residual fuel (or turbo heavy fuel, if you have that alt)

lilac escarp
#

So that would mean I will need around 14 coal generators and a half for generating power through those 360 petro coke is that right?

oblique hollow
#

yeah, however, you should have a smart splitter with "overflow" in there

#

or else the petroleum coke might back up when you dont consume enough power

lilac escarp
#

haven't unlocked smart splitter yet, what do you mean by managing overflow here?

oblique hollow
#

If your coal generators arent running at full power load, they wont actually consume 25 coke/min

#

meaning it can back up into the refinery

#

bringing everything to a halt

lilac escarp
#

where do I take the extra overflow then?

oblique hollow
#

a sink

#

the smart splitter is very easily unlocked in the mam

lilac escarp
#

brilliant. but what does the smart spillter do here?

#

does it take the excess to sink automatically

oblique hollow
#

The smart splitter has a setting called Overflow. thats what you need it for

lilac escarp
#

nice

oblique hollow
#

yes

lilac escarp
#

nice, one last thing. How much water extractors would be needed to supply water to those 14 and a half coal generators

cunning horizon
#

8:3 baby

oblique hollow
#

every coal generator always consumes 45 m³/min at 100% clock speed

#

if you are at full power usage

lilac escarp
#

okay

#

so that's around 5 and a half

#

or 2 overclocked at 200 percent and 1 overclocked at 150

oblique hollow
#

just make sure you use enough mk 1 pipes

lilac escarp
#

enough mk1 pipes as in

oblique hollow
#

people like to forget pipes have a flow rate limit

lilac escarp
#

oh yeah, I was thinking of four lines of pipes, inspired by Scalti, a key pipe with two pumps and three connecting pipes to run the network

oblique hollow
#

be careful with the terminology
Pump = Pipeline Pump
Extractor = "Water Pump"

dusky dust
#

They should've avoided confusion and called Pipeline Pumps "Fluid Movey Things" instead

oblique hollow
#

Or Booster pumps

#

then we could call them boosters

lilac escarp
#

yeah flow booster would have been nice

oblique hollow
#

eh, they dont actually boost flow

#

They only allow you to go higher.
So Pressure/Head Lift Booster would be more accurate

lilac escarp
#

yeah

#

one more thing, how should I be making this factory for potential future scaling?

#

or should I leave this plant separate and make another factory for future?

bleak coral
#

Oil gets a few crazy alts that completely changes the setup

#

so I wouldn't worry about setting up for scaling, cause you'll just make a completely different kind of plant once you get those alts

lilac escarp
#

nice, thanks

#

that should all help me complete my build, this is the most complicated build for me so far damn

bleak coral
#

yeah oil is where it's starts really getting complicated

#

it's the byproducts that do it

woeful sierra
#

Are two water extractors okay for 6 coal power generators?

sand garnet
#

no

lilac escarp
sand garnet
#

which is bad advice for coal gens

lilac escarp
#

oh no, why?

bleak coral
#

cause it wastes power

#

overclocking increases power draw more than it increases production

#

overclocking is to save space and build less machines

sand garnet
#

you're wasting power to make power

#

which obviously isnt a good idea

lilac escarp
#

true

#

which spillter to use for overflow smart or programmable

oblique hollow
#

usually smart

#

programmable is more expensive and is even more niche.

#

multiple settings per output, but not needed for normal Overflow

lilac escarp
#

hey, what can I currently use residue fuel for?

#

residual*

#

can I store it in something?

wind spade
#

there's no residual fuel, it's just fuel

#

residual fuel is name of recipe

lilac escarp
#

okay where can I store fuel

wind spade
#

in liquid storage tanks

#

you can burn it in fuel generators for power

#

you can package it

#

you can also use it for recycled rubber/plastic loop

lilac escarp
wind spade
#

yeah

lilac escarp
#

nice, thanks

bleak coral
#

What happened to using the heavy oil residue for coke?

wind spade
bleak coral
#

I meant @lilac escarp's specific plan, I thought that's what they were doing

sinful vale
lilac escarp
#

not sure if this plan will work but gotta try

bleak coral
#

It might, it's a little unnecessary though

sinful vale
#

until you get a lot of alts, you can get more power by turning it all into coke and throwing it into coal gens than making fuel

lilac escarp
#

suggest me something I should do

bleak coral
#

What lanxcapo said, just ignore residual fuel it's bad

#

Go all coke

lilac escarp
#

i can do that yes but more coal generator means more water extractors, and that will mess up my whole layout unless I make another small factory to take it all

#

let me show you the layout

#

this doesnt have the four refineries for rubber yet but you get the idea

#

those four refineres will be on the left edge facing output towards the inside

sinful vale
#

as far as i'm aware, most oil nodes are rather close to water sources, so adding more water extractors shouldn't be a big issue

lilac escarp
bleak coral
#

Do you have packaged fuel being made yet?

sinful vale
#

you don't need to make the factory and the coal plant in the exact same place

lilac escarp
sinful vale
#

you can make your products in a place, take the coke and move it closer to a big enough body of water and make the coal plant there to not have to bloat the space where you are making the oil line

bleak coral
#

Cause it might actually be a good idea to do the even split plan and divert some plastic to package it. That way you can sink the extra and have some for the jetpack eventually.

lilac escarp
#

hmm, guess gotta go back to drawing board and figure this out

#

the only thing I have against using all the residue oil for coke as power generation is that I am not really in need of so much excess power atm, specially with fuel generator coming soon

bleak coral
#

There's not much to do with HOR with vanilla recipes. It's power or packaged fuel.

sinful vale
#

personally i avoid using fuel gens in general until i get all the alts i need to make a full turbo fuel set up, their production rates aren't worth it imo

bleak coral
#

You could just simplify and sink all the coke if it's too much trouble

sinful vale
#

as for the coke, if you really don't need it for power (never underestimate your power needs tho) iirc there is an alt to make steel with it if you want a small steel line near your set up

bleak coral
#

Oh right forgot about the steel recipe

lilac escarp
#

This is what I finally came up with, 4 refineries for rubber 4 for plastic, 3 for HOR to coke, 8 coal generators to convert it into electricity and sending the rest to sink for now. In future I will use on of the refinery to make fuel if need be, or make more coal generators if need be.

📎 20210111193637_1.jpg
sinful vale
#

a bit overkill on the gens, since they consume 25 coke per min iirc, so be careful to not be making ghost capacity

frigid bough
#

i know this is math but anyone know chemistry

frosty herald
#

i just got a purple power slug from my lizard doggo

#

and a few weeks ago i got sam ore

eternal goblet
#

someone say chemistry?

frosty herald
#

whatt must the chances on that bbe?! those are the rarest ones

eternal goblet
#

also yes, it's gotta be rare, but SAM ore is currently useless is it not?

frosty herald
#

true but still the rarest item

#

I hope it gets a use soon

#

along with summersloops

#

and orbs

eternal goblet
#

hope for release 4?

frosty herald
#

yes

eternal goblet
#

yeah mercer spheres

vast jungle
#

I freaked out a few days ago because my base was finally high enough that I could have a look on one of the stone-pillars in the canyon besides my base... and I saw the "nuclear" green glowing thing there and though "WTF? Uranium near my base?"

No, it was a Mercer Sphere.

frosty herald
#

all around me are familiar faces......

vast jungle
#

at the moment I am trying to re-live part of my childhood... I am playing with trains 😉

#

trying to design "space/footprint" efficient train stations with multiple halts for "double tracked" train tracks.

torpid robin
#

no! let them take up allll the room