math-and-meta

[sand garnet]

ah right

[oblique hollow]

exact opposite behaviour

and unfortunately, yes, this only allows single fluid types

[fresh elm]

physically a valve shouldn't tramsmit lift

[oblique hollow]

yet they do, which is funny

[fresh elm]

no I mean irl

I understand why it does in the game, it's just a bug

but lift is sort of hacky anyway

[oblique hollow]

Yep, realistically, at 0 flow there shouldnt be any head lift

or rather: it would be proportional to flow

[fresh elm]

it just sort of has the appropriate properties in 95% of cases

[oblique hollow]

imagine if valves could also scale head lift

i would welcome that..... others probably not

@oblique hound

[deep quail]

Impressive. If it controls oil flow, could you make an oil generator start/stop for your interaction?

Wait there's an internal storage on the generators. That would slow your clock speed to a crawl...

[oblique hollow]

In this case, you could make 2 oil extractors or any other 2 buildings dependant on each other (as long as they produce the same fluid type)..... Not that useful but eh

i saw a little challange and took it

[dusky dust]

It is from such humble beginnings that the ability to play Tetris in-game is born

[oblique hollow]

imagine xd

[deep quail]

Yes please

[oblique hollow]

Minecraft Calculator but its Satisfactory

[deep quail]

Oh yeah

[oblique hollow]

i currently have only like 6 pipeline "circuits" that are at least somewhat useful, none of which are anything with logic

... the most "Logic" one i have would be.... the Comparator, which is basically just overflow. and the Variable Flow Divider (if one pipeline is full, output to the next)

[silver magnet]

wait, u can make and gates in satisfactory?

what about nand gates?

if nandgates, brb making cpu

[oblique hollow]

Yea, unfortunately just single fluid pipelines

gotta see if i can make NAND xd

[silver magnet]

haha, that would be hilarious

[oblique hollow]

all i gotta figure out is how to make a NOT

which is surely gonna be hard

[oblique hollow]

... i think i kind of made a NOT? it has 2 inputs and 1 output since you still need a supply to power the not

[muted crypt]

wait what are you making

tl;dr me

[sand garnet]

he's making logic gates

[oblique hollow]

Pipe Logic Gates

[muted crypt]

oh neat

[oblique hollow]

aaaaand it works

no i would only need to combine AND with NOT and we got ourself a NAND

and then the crazy computer freaks can go build Hydraulic Calculators and whatnot

problem is you need like a dozen packagers to deal with the accumulating fluids

[muted crypt]

make greeny's calculator but in the game with pipes

ez 👀

[oblique hollow]

hah

wait

i did an oops

Now its correct

applying A will not let A flow through, it simply switches S

so basically, this is a Toggle Switch

if you want true NOT, you only use the Y one and sink the NOT(Y)

its still a total mess though when you build it 😂

[frosty owl]

Neat. Moreover even I understand it like this 😁
Seems to work

You already tested it?

[oblique hollow]

yep

i also did an AND gate

just gotta make the diagram

and then, if you put these two together.... you get NAND, the fundamental Block for mathematics and all other logic

god, imagine building a freaking Fluid Multiplexer

[frosty owl]

At that point nothing would stop someone from trying to reproduce a simple CPU with pipes and run calculations with it LMAO

[oblique hollow]

i mean. remember the Comparator that Oscillates?

[frosty owl]

You set 2 valves' limit to express your numbers, then wait forever to read the output's flow

[oblique hollow]

we even got Clocks like that if we use those

[frosty owl]

Yeah, no, I was kidding but not kiddingjust need someone crazy enough to actually put it in practice ahahah

[oblique hollow]

this is so unbelievably stupid but big brain at the same time

[fresh elm]

without a transistor of some sort it would not be doable

you also need memory

[oblique hollow]

well.... the fluid Not gate acts as a toggle switch

[fresh elm]

but that you could do with smart splitters

[frosty owl]

The memory is a bit of an issue right now...

[fresh elm]

without a transistor, the application of these gates is neat but not practical

[frosty owl]

Practicality is really not a concern in this sort of things, I believe 😆

[fresh elm]

you'd be wrong

and/or/xor/etc gates are hella useful in factory games

[oblique hollow]

the only way to have communication between the pipes and solids right now is packagers

[fresh elm]

my factorio and shapez games are littered with circuitry doing things

[frosty owl]

I mean, come on, whoever got up to the task of trying to reproduce a CPU with pipes wouldn't care about it being practical... I think...

[oblique hollow]

sooo.... you could switch between belt logic and then Pipe Logic?

via packagers?

[frosty owl]

Dear lord, the size of a "circuit" like that...

[oblique hollow]

Perfect for Klep

[fresh elm]

Space isn't a huge issue

[frosty owl]

We're talking about circuits taking tens of MW here. Just your everyday device

[fresh elm]

the game has a ton of free space

[oblique hollow]

Does that seem reasonable Klep? converting pipe logic to belt logic?

[fresh elm]

and with over 1TW of spare power I don't really care

[oblique hollow]

you could then even mix different solids

and use smart/programmable splitters to sort them

[frosty owl]

I didn't point out issues, I'm just saying it sounds nuts if you take it out of context

[fresh elm]

@oblique hollow maybe. the problem is getting it to actually trigger something on a separate line.

[oblique hollow]

Convert Oil to Fuel

that one way for one piece of logic

[fresh elm]

I guess you could do something with fuel, plastic, rubber

[oblique hollow]

maybe even HOR

[fresh elm]

and you can make a trinary system for the output

[oblique hollow]

Plastic can be converted to rubber so thats very handy

since you can revert that

[fresh elm]

No, I was thinking more actually making decision trees

you need more bits.

so I'm already like 10 steps ahead of what you're talking about

[oblique hollow]

hahaha ok

So i guess you're just waiting for me to complete the NAND gate now?

[fresh elm]

See, I'm trying to think "how can I use this in a practical way"

no, I would probably do it completely differently.

[frosty owl]

A crude way to "initiate" a belt would be some sort of "priority merging system" where the main belt acts as a stop for the other belt by saturating the merging with its items. Said items would be them split to free the resulting belt and go to packagers. If the packagers CAN package the fluid, the belt starts running again, otherwise it's stuck

[fresh elm]

but the idea is interesting.

[oblique hollow]

It really is

Very Slow computing, but it seems possible nontheless

[obsidian sluice]

why not suck water in at one end, and package it the other end and sink it

the world's first water-cooled water computer

[oblique hollow]

Water and Oil are the easiest choices

Fuel is handy since you can use that to directly influence solids, namely plastic and rubber

[frosty owl]

I already trademarked it 🤣

[fresh elm]

Unfortunately every scenario I think of using it for I could just do it faster with overflow belting

[oblique hollow]

We have left the realm of practical times long ago with pipe logic

[fresh elm]

if you could toggle power on a power pole that would make it 100% worthwhile

[obsidian sluice]

it's not about the efficiency, it's about making a point

[fresh elm]

I'm not talking about efficiency. I'm talking about actually having an application of it.

[oblique hollow]

well, you can toggle the fuel into them

[obsidian sluice]

idk what the point is yet, but it certainly says something about us if we make it

[frosty owl]

XD

[oblique hollow]

Unfortunately, you cant make fluids cross-communicate

[obsidian sluice]

even if it's idk, a proof of concept adder

[fresh elm]

yeah, it would take separate circuits but that's easy enough

good idea.

[oblique hollow]

Once again, the NOT toggles the flow of the S- source input

[fresh elm]

this will be the slowest computer in the world

because fluids

[frosty owl]

I think it could make for some interesting paper's headlines

[fresh elm]

I bet I could do this with belts too.

that would actually be effective and easier to debug at runtime

and belts allow for a lot higher bw comms

[obsidian sluice]

Mk 1 belts! ferrying limestone ore around at the speed of meh

[oblique hollow]

Yea but what logic can you do with belts? i guess NOT or OR

[fresh elm]

smart splitters add a lot of flex here

[oblique hollow]

i didnt deal that much with belts

all i remember is that i made an overflow with smart splitters before overflow was real xd

[oak hawk]

whats going on here?

[oblique hollow]

Logical Computation with Pipes xd

[bleak coral]

crazy fluid logic gate shenanigans

the prelude to the video 10 years from now titled "Doom Running in Satisfactory!"

[oblique hollow]

no.
Satisfactory running in Satisfactory

[bleak coral]

lol so you can set 2 CPUs on fire a once

[oblique hollow]

(Klepdar's save) ²

[frosty owl]

2025 pioneers: Your factory is a starter base if it doesn't even run Satisfactory with no lags

[oblique hollow]

Your Base only qualifies as a megabase if it can run Minecraft

[obsidian sluice]

come to think of it, this hypothetical fluid computer won't be the slowest computer in existence

[dusky dust]

True endgame goal: TCP/IP stack in pipes

[obsidian sluice]

the supercomputer running this satisfactory savefile would be slower

[frosty owl]

Wait, I thought it'd be Klepdar running it. Who else?!

[obsidian sluice]

we'll run the first few proofs of concept on Klepdar's computer

but once we scale up, we're just gonna name the supercomputer after Klepdar because it's gonna have the same frame rate

24 seconds per frame

[oblique hollow]

the Klepulator

damn it i messed the diagram up again xd

there, for REAL this time

whereas A determines the flow for the AND gate

which shouldnt change over the course of all this

if you want a NAND..... use the Y from the AND as the A input for the NOT

SO every NAND will have 5 connections: Source, A, B, Y and then the unused NOT(Y), which will need to be drained

Now GO, MY BRAVE PIONEERS, GO AND BUILD THE ULTIMATE FLUID CALCULATOR

[sand garnet]

you're... expecting me to put in any actual effort?

[oblique hollow]

not you

[sand garnet]

lol you know me well

[oblique hollow]

go on then

prove your worth

now all i gotta do is find a way to store "data" and convert it

the only conversion we got are packagers and refineries 🥲

My months of pipe research have come to fruition...

I can die peacefully now

[oblique hollow]

sorry for the ping but here you go, a NAND gate xd

[silver magnet]

no way

[oblique hollow]

yes way

[silver magnet]

brb making satisfactory alu

acc big brain, how did u work it out?

[oblique hollow]

By being observant with pipe mechanics for a looong time now, and my background in engineering (and electronics)

Cant wait for the literal "Pipe Logic Circuits" Wiki Page

@deft lichen when is pipe research enough to create an entire Wiki Page with Logic circuits

[frosty owl]

By nerding too much
Of course he just knows because he's big brain and very interested

[deft lichen]

ummm

good question

so it goes beyond what's on the head lift page?

[oblique hollow]

yep

this is straight up logic now

we got the NAND gate

[deft lichen]

and at the same time is too much detail to be included on the main pipeline page

what I'd do is create a subpage

Pipeline/Logic for example

[oblique hollow]

sounds good to me

[frosty owl]

"McGalleons in depth ramblings"?

[deft lichen]

it still has to be in wiki style though

[frosty owl]

I'm just being cruel, it's very interesting stuff :3

[oblique hollow]

"Incoherent ramblings of a mad plumber"

can wiki pages be hidden?

i dont want anyone to see the unfinished product

[deft lichen]

to some extent maybe

you can put it to your user page first

where noone will judge you for what's there

[oblique hollow]

ah ok

[bleak coral]

the main issue is still what you can do with this logic right? cause at best you're manually starting/stopping water/oil extractors to turn refineries and packagers off/on following some logic

what can be done with that?

[oblique hollow]

God now i have to refresh my freaking lessons on Logic and work with a dozen NANDs

if you use Packagers, as final outputs/inputs, you could influence different parts of your factory

i will look deeper into practical applications

[deft lichen]

Satisfactory apparently is turing-complete

[oblique hollow]

I dont want this to be just a novelty

[frosty owl]

Should you put a veil on it to prepare an unveil?

[oblique hollow]

Prepare for Logic guides near 1.0

[bleak coral]

even if you can get a novelty working, like a basic calculator like 3 extractors on one side + 3 extractors on another = 6 packagers outputting, that'd be insanely impressive

[frosty owl]

That's pretty easy to do, though... 😅😂

[oblique hollow]

in theory, the NOT itself can be used as a way to toggle distant fuel generators, for example

if you use one generator and 1 power line per pipe connection....

oh boy

[frosty owl]

Also allow fluids to get into factories as soon as the fluo reaches another distant place so you can start machines together

[deft lichen]

@oblique hollow about the user pages, to create one, navigate to top right corner>my user page>user page, then edit the url to add your desired subpage name (anything, like Pipeline logic) and once you're there, you can create the page

keep in mind they're just as public as everything else, even other people can edit the user page, but you do not oblige any wiki styling rules

[oblique hollow]

ok

[reef grotto]

I am still trying to figure out belt math in this game, and one problem I seem to run into a lot is this...I have one mk 3 minor with mk 5 belts on a sulfur node sharded to pull 600 sulfur for minute. It is feeding 24 compact coal machines, which require 600 sulfur total. I have 2 rows of 12 machines and the sulfur is split to feed down the line of the 2 rows of 12. My last 2 machines on both rows are starving for sulfur. Could someone explain to me why in the end I don't have 600 sulfur actually going to these machines from that node? Do splitters mess it up?

[bleak coral]

how are you splitting it up? using precise splits or just a splitter in front of each machine?

a picture would be helpful if you can

[reef grotto]

Yeah I will post a picture going to try to get a good one for you

This is how I am splitting them into the two rows of 12

I am going to post one of how I am splitting them into machines one minute I am slow lol

This is how they are being split into the machines. Note, one of the lines of 12 is being fed by a separate machines, so ignore the one that looks fed

[bleak coral]

that looks like 36 machines? are they all compacted coal, I see sulfur going into all 3 rows

[reef grotto]

Yes, but 1 of the rows is being fed by another impure node sharded to 300, and that row works great. It is the two rows that I have split sharing a 600 machine that is starving

[bleak coral]

are all the machines filled up yet?

[reef grotto]

not with sulfur

[bleak coral]

all the machines before the last one need to be filled up before it runs at 100% efficiency using that kind of splitting which we call manifolding

each splitter will split by 1/2 until the machine and belt going to it is full, then it will only take what the machine needs

[reef grotto]

so if the ones before the end never fill then the last ones will starve?

[bleak coral]

they should fill up eventually, but it may be slow

how long have you waited?

[reef grotto]

about an hour

[bleak coral]

and it's the last two in each row that are starving?

[abstract copper]

Is the first machine in the line full?

[reef grotto]

the first 9 machines are full the last 3 are starving

[abstract copper]

If you look at the 9th or 10th machine you should see it very very slowly filling

So just wait another half hour or so and the last machines should be fine then

[reef grotto]

okay cool thanks I will watch it

So I wonder if I fill all the machines up manually to full if that would keep it from starving at all, they will continue to be full after that?

[bleak coral]

I have two other thoughts:

1. you might have missed a small section of mk4 belt somewhere, which would be making it 480ppm from the miner which would feed 18 machines plus turn the last 3 on and off (cause the next split after nine would only have 15ppm going to it split between 3 machines)
2. your fps is really really really low, which can somewhat affect belt speeds, but 3 machines starving seems liked it'd be too big for that. I'd more expect just 1 or 2 machines at <100% efficiency if that was the case

[abstract copper]

#1 sounds very plausible

[reef grotto]

I built it with mk 5 belts, so maybe I did, but it would be a stretch. I could look on the interactive map maybe to see if there is a small section of a slower belt.

How do you know my fps is low?

[bleak coral]

I don't, it was a guess, low fps can affect belt speed, mostly mk5 belts, but it shouldn't affect it this much

it's more of a long shot guess

[reef grotto]

I have it set at ultra, so maybe there is a lag, but I don't know what it is. This happens to me more than this situation though, so I am trying to figure out what my error is since I must be doing something wrong.

Maybe I will try filling the last ones to make them all at max and see if any starve after that.

[bleak coral]

logistically the way you set it up is correct, so it's either an error like a missed mk4 belt or a bug of some sort

[abstract copper]

I think with an exactly even input/output you should see all but the last 2 machines eventually reach full, and the last two machines in each line would get just barely enough to keep running consistently.

[reef grotto]

This is what the last one looks like

right after it makes some coal

[bleak coral]

actually the fact that the coal is fine definitely lends me to thinking there's a rogue mk4 belt somewhere, cause if it was lag it should affect the coal too

[reef grotto]

okay I am going with it and really inspecting my belts to see

[haughty swan]

i have a impure completely overclocked and its keeping one fully overclocked assembler full and a normal assembler

[reef grotto]

I'm going to re-run the lines and start filling the last one first. Maybe that will fix either issue.

[dim badger]

Anyone know where i can find a program or something to plan out production lines for satisfactory?

[wind spade]

in the pins

[dim badger]

Thanks

[dusty crow]

For a good coal setup, how many extractors does one need

[wind spade]

enough to cover all the power consumption that you have 🙂

[dusty crow]

water, extractor

actually better question is how is the setup done

[wind spade]

3 extractors to 8 generators

for example like this:

   G  G  G  G
E--+--+--+--+
E--+
E--+--+--+--+
   G  G  G  G

[dusty crow]

...i'm gonna need alot of rotors aren't i.

[wind spade]

(because the pipe only allows 300m3 and 3 extractors generate 360m3)

[dusty crow]

i should probably start by making the base.

[wind spade]

well in this game you always need resources, it's a good thing to automate anything you can

[dusty crow]

Also would it be different with a normal node?

of coal

[wind spade]

this setup needs 120 coal/min

[dusty crow]

cant I merge two mines into one

[wind spade]

you can, if you have fast enough belts

[dusty crow]

and if i dont?

wait nvm I do

[wind spade]

well then you need to use two separated belts 🙂

[dusty crow]

i do have mk2 lol

[wind spade]

since you have two groups of gens, you could easily just hook each group to one belt doing 60/min

[dusty crow]

two mk2 belts get combined

and then I have a belt of 120.
or is it two mk1 belts of 60 and then 1 mk2 belt of 120

ok one last question

does the belt of 120 feed every generator? @wind spade

[wind spade]

yeah, 120 coal/min is enough to feed 8 generators at full capacity

[dusty crow]

how would it work?

[wind spade]

what do you mean?

[dusty crow]

like

that one conveyor..
does it go from one generator to another

[wind spade]

you use splitters

[dusty crow]

daisy chained?

[wind spade]

for example like this

--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |
  G  G  G  G

it's pretty much up to you how you hook them up

it'll always self-balance after a while

especially for generators, since they don't use all the coal unless running at full load

[dusty crow]

gotcha

@wind spade probably using the worst location but maybe I can make this work. the extractors work.

do coal generators have to be anywhere

[peak basalt]

Best to keep them close to wate to avoid pumps,, but they CAN be anywhere you want them.

[dusty crow]

is this good enough?

[peak basalt]

That will work. If its good enough is your call.

[dusty crow]

the only problem I have is the coal generators. the foundation needing to look right.

[dusty crow]

alright! how would I connect the pipes?

[wind spade]

I've shown you already here https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/780967966657085480

[dusty crow]

do I need anything to accelerate it

[peak basalt]

Id run your pipes just a bit off the ground, so you can run your belts underneath it

The extractors have a headlift of 10m

If you go higher than that, then you'd need a pump.

[dusty crow]

so.. i dont need to have accelerators. k

[peak basalt]

Based off the pic, I'd say no.

[dusty crow]

?

how's this.

[peak basalt]

That'll work

[dusty crow]

you sure?

[peak basalt]

Thats 6m or so

Maybe 8m, your fine

[dusty crow]

now what?

connect?

[peak basalt]

Run your pipes, put on your junctions,.. run your belts and splitters. Then jump start it with a few biomass burners and your good.

[dusty crow]

dont i need to split the pipes

[peak basalt]

Yep, with junctions

[dusty crow]

can i raise junctions

[peak basalt]

Id run the main pipe first, then snap the junctions onto the pipe where you need them.

[dusty crow]

ok.

[dusty crow]

it works! but is it normal for the extractors to turn off

[exotic ledge]

i have 6 smelters producing 180 iron ingots, and I used "manifold" to make 4 constructors for plates and 4 constructors for rods, which is (30*4)+(15*4) = 120 + 60 = 180 -- so all my iron ingots should be feeding into the constructors equally -- but the constructors are getting too many ingots still. Why is that?

Like the overfilling of ingots is clogging the smelter's production.

[wind spade]

that's how manifold works, it fills first building and then overflows to second one, etc.

apart from last one or two machines, all others should be filled up to max

though this may vary based on your setup

[exotic ledge]

yea but i thought it wouldn't fill up the smelters themselves. The math works to dilute the ingots to all 8 constructors, but it somehow seems like I'm overproducing ingots still

sorry i can't take a screen shot (diff computers) so its hard for me to describe.

I'll just try random things and see what happens. 😦

[wind spade]

as long as it produces, it's fine imo

[exotic ledge]

i agree but i want to split it off to make more (upgraded my miners so now I want to "double" my production) and I'm not sure where to extend my factory 😛

I'm probably overthinking

is it possible to not use Manifold system and have a splitter only go in a certain direction if it's overflow? (I guess I could ask this anywhere, this was just the channel I had open)

[bleak coral]

you need smart splitters, in the caterium tree of the M.A.M.

[wind spade]

there's an overflow option on smart splitter

[exotic ledge]

Ah

That's good to know! Thanks

[wind spade]

but if you're overproducing for any reason, smart splitter won't help you with that

[bleak coral]

they only need tier 2 materials, so no need to put them off if you don't mind going and finding a caterium node

[exotic ledge]

yea they're in my research tree

haven't unlocked them yet

thanks!

[frosty owl]

I just tried out a part of the newest water pipes I added. 2x300 extractors going into 6x100 refineries. Each refinery's pipe has a valve limiting to 100
Works like a charm as they all fill up at the same time, meaning the system is balanced enough for my standards :3
@oblique hollow
Sure, nothing groundbreaking, but it's important to verify even small things, ain't it? xD

[oblique hollow]

So... Line Balancer has been verified

Nice

[frosty owl]

I did try it out previously with some buffers, but seeing it "in it's natural habitat" is another thing

[oblique hollow]

this one, yes?

well kinda

more like this

[frosty owl]

Pretty much, exept the junctions and input points are kinda manifold: 1 entry point for all 6 junctions

[oblique hollow]

yea i mean the concept is pretty much the same

[frosty owl]

Quite, which is part of why it's convenient. If you lack fluid you can just hook up a new pipe and call it a day. As long as the valves are there and you give enough fluid, it works the same

Next step will be reproducing it for the Aluminia solution. That'll be a bit harder as there is a specific overflow to manage (30 each pipe), but I'm confident valves should handle that too the same as before
I mean, they SHOULD, right? 🤔

I don't wanna build a "height overflow" system for that afterall

[oblique hollow]

well, you can try the Flow Divider. It acts as overflow too

[frosty owl]

Isn't that quite big to make too, though?

I might be confusing the schematic for it

[oblique hollow]

well, depends, do you need many overflows or only one collective overflow

are all the outputs connected?

[frosty owl]

Many. Each of the previous 6 refineries outputs 80, so it's 480 each solution pipe. Those go into arrays of 5x90, leaving 30 from EACH pipe

[oblique hollow]

and why not use the 30 from each pipe?

[frosty owl]

It's a maximized bauxite project, so the numbers are big

[frosty owl]

What do you mean?
I plan on converging and using them in the last arrays (the ones that are NOT in fives)

[oblique hollow]

oh

ok, well then using a manifold with valves should work

just set the last one to 30 and it should be fine

just make sure the sum of the limits matches the input

[frosty owl]

Right! I forgot I could use the last junction too xD
For some reason I stubbornely kept trying to split it at the source (where the pipe comes into the building) and had issues with space because of that ahahah

[oblique hollow]

[frosty owl]

Also: making a system this big without calculators finally required me to get myself some paper to sketch on xD
But it's fun :3

[oblique hollow]

ez pz

[frosty owl]

Exactly what I'm doing now, exept the 30 valve is on the left ahah
Will have to fix that. I don't like having a "return pipe" just for that, but it's better the making contraptions that are hard to read and walk by due to little space :\

[oblique hollow]

if they all add up, you can merge all the 30 into a pipe

which runs parallel to the rest

which is probably what you are doing, i guess

[frosty owl]

Oh yeah, there's plenty to merge up.
It's more then 16 pipes, so the OF should provide for more then one array of 5

Though there IS a 0.4 or something OF in the end that I'll have to store... :
That sucks

[oblique hollow]

20 * 30 = 600

so mk 2 should work

[frosty owl]

Even if they were more, I would still merge only up to the point of having a full 450 pipe before separating the rest

I find it more convenient. Also I think it's best to avoid having 600 in a pipe if possible 🤔
Just in case 😂

[oblique hollow]

mk 2 pipes are funky anyway

none of my flow stabilization circuits calm the flow inside them down

[frosty owl]

Hopefully that'd be fixed.
Our future SatisCPU will be even slower if we can't use mk2 in it :\

[oblique hollow]

ill see if i can build an RS Flipflip with the NAND gates. If you wanna find out what that is, its basically just a switch that saves its current state. Google will give you more info in that

[frosty owl]

I did get some info on those at school... But I can't say I still remember that 😂

[cosmic hawk]

You’re doing max bauxite? Where are you setting it up at?

[frosty owl]

Luckily very close to both the HUB and the Baux deposits. Do you recognize the area?
Are you also maximizing it?

[cosmic hawk]

I want to start on it yea. I just got done maximizing the oil coast for rubber

Figured maybe I’ll just start on a massive turbo motor build

[fresh elm]

I know everyone wants to use all the bauxite on the map to make turbo motors, but I try to remind people we will 99% likely need bauxite for other things after this.

[glacial hemlock]

98% for turbomotors (still) and 2% for alclads, should be enough

[fresh elm]

No, I mean, for more things that are not in the game yet.

I fully expect to need more bauxite when update 4 comes out.

[glacial hemlock]

those can wait until they actually in the game, map may be modified for such additions too.

[fresh elm]

the nodes don't get changed that frequently.

I mean, it's everyone else's games you can do whatever you want.

[glacial hemlock]

you can have mk.6 by then. So the difference between 1200 and 780 should be enough for the new things

[fresh elm]

you must be a bus person

[lime lagoon]

Given how few things (although important) that aluminium is used for, it’s a fair guess it’ll be used a ton later on

[fresh elm]

building with a main bus in this game is not very optimal

it was doable before the sink, if silly since belts are so slow

[sand garnet]

I dont recall massive node additions in the past tbh

[fresh elm]

@sand garnet update 3 added a bunch of stuff around the dune desert. update 1 added bauxite

(and moved the existing bauxite)

[sand garnet]

did it add stuff or move it around?

[fresh elm]

3? well there's a ton more land mass now, so I would think added

but I don't remember tbh

2 just moved a bunch of stuff

there's def more coal in the dune desert than there was in the similar area in u2

(almost certainly because it was designated a starter area and they wanted you to make coal generators there)

[abstract copper]

Didn't 3.6 change some nodes too? Just purity but still

[fresh elm]

did purities change?

I don't remember that.

if anything got downgraded I should probably make sure nothing broke

[abstract copper]

Some people reported mismatch between online maps' purity and what was in game after 3.6 came out. Not sure if that was verified as a change or as a tooling error.

[fresh elm]

well, if you're using some of the old old map sites they're def all wrong 😉

[abstract copper]

I don't even remember which one (s). I don't often use them myself.

[fresh elm]

I def do these days, its' hard to remember what nodes are or aren't tapped

[frosty owl]

The area I highlighted on the map actually fit my turbomotors production too (a few short of the max to still have some allu sheets left)
So if you'd like to build there you have my word that you'd have a good scenary and enough space to fit it all. Also water and coal close-by ^^

[glacial hemlock]

turbomotor basically uses everything, so place it towards the center of the map can be highly beneficial.

[cosmic hawk]

Is that area in the red forest? I’ll have to check it out when I get on next time. I was planning to do the alum somewhere up there

[frosty owl]

It's just outside of it, sort of a flat plateau with a few lakes

[fresh elm]

crater lake?

(just north, sort of bordering the rocky desert)

[cosmic hawk]

I know exactly where that area is actually now that I’m looking at the map again. I had a coal plant up there on an old save.

[tulip mica]

so i just managed to unlock coal power before i ran out of biofuel, so far ive only found 1 pure coal where i am, im close to water in the forest to cliff area, if i were to make coal gens from that single pure coal node, how many coal gens would i need?

[bleak coral]

Coal generators use 15 coal per minute, the wiki has all the fuel burn rates

[tulip mica]

b..my brain capacity is too small to understand

i just want infinite power before my brain melts into goo

[bleak coral]

Divide the rate at which the miner is making coal by 15, the amount of coal generators use at 100%

[oblique hollow]

@frosty owl NAND works, but it has a 30 second reaction time xd

[oblique hollow]

god this is painful

[muted crypt]

you're insane

[oblique hollow]

this is a single NAND gate. now imagine 4 or so for complex gates and stuff

[cold snow]

wait, are you trying to programm with the fluids?

[dusky dust]

Building A Better Ingame Calculator With Fluids™️

McGalleon: I expect a fluid-based calculator which respects order of operations by this weekend. Chop chop.

[muted crypt]

just stand by a full pipe and press N on your keyboard

[bleak coral]

he said one that respects order of operations

[oblique hollow]

the diagram for a NAND is even more abhorrent

[bleak coral]

NAND Fluid Memory

[oblique hollow]

this thing has a reaction speed of 10 to 30 seconds

[bleak coral]

the memory part is the reoccurring nightmares of setting up the NAND Fluid gate

[oblique hollow]

i would probably need to try build a NAND-based RS Flipflop

and that needs at least 2 NANDs

[unkempt glacier]

I have a pipeline im trying to figure out the actual flow rate for.
the pipe claims its flow rate is 30, while the valve on the same line claims the flow rate is 60

which number is it?

[oblique hollow]

dont trust valves. pipes are more reliable

if you trust neither: disconnect your pipe from its destination and connect it to a fluid buffer with a pump. then check the pipe before the pump

[unkempt glacier]

value fluctuates slightly, but claims 30

looking at the pipe segment before the pump

this value is half what i expected 😐

[oblique hollow]

like this

[unkempt glacier]

yah.

[oblique hollow]

by "the valve claims".... do you mean the limit? or the actual flow

[unkempt glacier]

actual flow

[oblique hollow]

can i get a wider view angle?

and preferably your intended flow direction

[unkempt glacier]

right -> left.

[oblique hollow]

is that a mod building

to the right

[unkempt glacier]

yes, though that shouldn't make a difference?

[oblique hollow]

i cant help with that. It might be a mod issue

I can only truly solve vanilla pipe issues

[unkempt glacier]

the mod is the thing im trying to test, my question is entirely which number from vanilla should be trusted

because the various flow measuring devices from vanilla all give different numbbers

[oblique hollow]

usually, the value before a pump should be reliable. you can also check the net flow on the buffer

[unkempt glacier]

net flow on the buffer is derpy.

[oblique hollow]

CO2?

mod fluids,, ok

[unkempt glacier]

fluid in question.

this derpy behavior happens with vanilla as well.

[oblique hollow]

you can try setting up a flow rate interpolator before the buffer. Dont let the name scare you, it just reduces the jumpyness, ill send a picture of it shortly

leave one of these 2 buffers away if its too slow for you

[unkempt glacier]

where would i measure from?

[oblique hollow]

output

the output pipe of this should be very calm

it takes a while to get up to the final flow rate

[unkempt glacier]

output reading 60

[oblique hollow]

huh

[unkempt glacier]

input reading 30

[oblique hollow]

odd

constant 60?

[unkempt glacier]

its actually stable at 55 +-2

input pipe observed at 30 +-1

[oblique hollow]

then i think this is an issue with the mod fluids

[oblique hollow]

try it with mk 1 pipes too

just to be sure

mk 2 pipes are a bit...wonky

[unkempt glacier]

im suspecting the mod isn't outputting a constant flow, but every other factory tick...

i ran some vanilla fuel through this interpolator with a valve set at 30/minute and im seeing 30/minute out the other end.

[oblique hollow]

i also suspect its the mod. You are better off heading to the modding discord

[unkempt glacier]

yep.

[oblique hollow]

Good luck

[unkempt glacier]

thanks for the help.

[oblique hollow]

you're welcome

[dusty crow]

is it normal for coal power, when being used, to have odd readings

?

[unkempt glacier]

most vanilla power will only produce what is required, its normal to see graphs like that where production matches consumption, where both are lower than capacity.

[sand garnet]

yeah thats definitely a modded issue lol

the flow irregularities is why RP stuff is postponed @unkempt glacier

[unkempt glacier]

fun times.

Methinks i know why too, but we can take that to the mod's discord 🙂

[oblique hollow]

This can be a lot, but i think the valves are to blame too. Ive been having issues with them at certain points

[exotic ledge]

ok so I did 3 water extractors -> 8 coal generators, but the math seems off to me.

If three water extractors pump 120 meters cubed per minute, that totals to 360; and the coal generators divide evenly. Nice.

However, i can clearly see that the pipelines only accept 300 meters cubed of water. So when I merge my pipelines, all 360 water ends up flowing into the same pipeline and should be capped at 300 water, right? And thus, it wouldn't divide evenly into the coal generators.

But I currently have it set up and working, so what am I missing?

[bleak coral]

if you do it in one pipeline 1 extractor goes on one end of the pipe and 2 on the other end, or you just split one extractor into two different pipes which are attached to the other extractors

also power generators use resources proportionally to how much power you're using, so you're not needing all 360m^3/min yet

[exotic ledge]

oh so since I'm not using enough power, the 300m^3/min when the pipes merge is good enough to support; but once I start using too much power, then there won't be enough water to go through? This actually explains my situation pretty well. I was watching the power consumption and knew I was getting close to my 600 power limit. So I built one or two more machines, checked if I was getting close, and once I got around 540ish, then my capacity dropped. I now understand that its because a coal generator wasn't getting enough water through the 300m^3/min pipeline, despite my 3 extractors.

Thanks, that helped me understand more about the pipelines.

[bleak coral]

That's exactly it

Do you get why putting the extractors on opposite sides of the pipeline helps?

[exotic ledge]

I think it's because water takes time to get there? I'm not sure.

[bleak coral]

It's because water can come in from both sides since pipes are bidirectional, so the two flows can meet in the middle and by the time they do some generators have already used up some of the water so for any one section of pipe the flow is never greater than 300

     G     G     G     G    G     G      G    G
     |     |     |     |    |     |      |    |
240->>>195>>>150>>>105>>>60>>>15>>45<<30<<<75<<<-120

[exotic ledge]

Ah, by weaving them through the generators before they reach each other, some water will be consumed before hitting the 300 cap. I see. The help is much appreciated, thank you!

[bleak coral]

No problem, happy to help!

[peak basalt]

2 common coal gen setups showing just the piping. Belts not included.

[hollow isle]

Belts can be on the ground, under the pipes if you raise them. Its quite systematic. Also, 1 pure coal or 2 normal is enough to feed 8 generators. (Miner mk-1, mk-2 is not needed if you have plans to go to another source of power, and the 600 power you get from this is enough for a long time.) Also another tip, for each side (on first one) you can use Mk 1 belts for supply. Helps if you wanna save up your heavy metal plates.

Also, if you use the pure coal with miner mk-1 you can split the conveyor right after its mined, so you dont need to use the heavy metal plates for a mk-2. You just stack the 2 mk-1 belts on top of eachother on the way to the generators.

[bleak coral]

"heavy metal plates" 🎸

[hollow isle]

What do you expect? Im sitting in class

[stark bronze]

Is the turbomotor the most complicated recipe? According to Greenys calculator its not too scary

[wind spade]

it's the most complex, yeah

especially with alt recipes

[stark bronze]

Turning on alts will spawn in a raw resource called water that connects to almost everything
But i think i can manage without it

[wind spade]

well adding water to everything is highly beneficial for you

[stark bronze]

In terms of resource efficiency, cant argue

[oblique hollow]

cant believe i actually found a proper analogy for this mess i built..... They are MOSFETs! they actually behave like transistors. And they need a drain for the gate in order to reset.

[glacial hemlock]

Jumbo has joined the chat.

[undone sapphire]

God has left the chat

[glacial hemlock]

@oblique hollow what i understand is, headlift can be transmitted as 1 / 0 signal without something physically actually being transmitted?!? Am i right?

[oblique hollow]

in this case, with Valves, yes

Though you still need a flow at the input (source)

in order to actually transmit something

[glacial hemlock]

Maybe you can use short statement in your chart to state which infomation is being manipulated, and by what means. Else these redstones can be overwhelming for dum people (like me 😂 )

Also, rotating both left and right figures so that they can be easily compared side-by-side

[oblique hollow]

Fluid NAND and real CMOS NAND comparison. Good luck xd

[glacial hemlock]

The bottom diagram don't have their inputs labelled

[oblique hollow]

yes yes

one moment

better?

If A and B are supplied, NOT(Y) is active, in any other case, the current / liquid flows through Y

and P is responsible for resetting the Gates

Breaking this down so anyone can digest it is gonna be hard. But this was just a "proof" that it actually behaves like the real thing

[frosty owl]

I think adding informations about the various flows would be good. In particular I'm a bit confused by the amounts the different Ps discharge as I don't know the volume of the inputs

[frosty owl]

With alts you can make about 3 times more with the same baux, right?
It's been a while since I made the comparison...

[bleak coral]

Over 6x the amount with just vanilla recipes: 25.78ppm vs 156ppm

without alts turbo motors actually get bottlenecked by oil

and have over 4000 heavy oil residue waste

[sand garnet]

many people just use the online tools available to us

check the pinned messages in this channel

[bleak coral]

Personally I also wouldn't download files from a public discord like this one, so sharing excel files is probably not the best way to share your work.

[near sorrel]

wait... are you guys saying you can use the pipe system as a logic gate system?

[wind spade]

it's technically possible, but pretty much useless anyway

[near sorrel]

right... cause everything pretty much works autonomously anyways

[oblique hollow]

technically possible. if you use packagers, you could probably affect something

the exact effects of this are yet to be determined

[fringe loom]

This area is to big brain for me

[patent bough]

the moment someone figures out how to implement a turing machine in satisfactory, next thing you know someone will build an implementation of satisfactory inside of satisfactory 🤯

(the amount of data required to describe the game is actually probably too large to fit inside of constructibles within the game but i can dream)

[abstract copper]

I don't think anyone's made a JVM inside Minecraft yet (using redstone)...

[oblique isle]

I can only image the lag on that one

[late swan]

Nah, no satisfactory inside satisfactory

But at least it would run Doom

[near sorrel]

what is JVM... I did see a guy that built a "working" computer... you could click on like one thing with a "mouse" also some guys have made digital clocks and full blown calculators... I don't know what a JVM is... I'm sure if you are familiar with minecraft what nots you've seen the old video about the bat cave... that thing was packed full of stuff

[near sorrel]

have you seen the episode of Because Science on youtube where they turn Magic the Gathering into a turing machine?

[abstract copper]

JVM = Java Virtual Machine, what Minecraft (the Java version of it at least) runs in

[mortal spindle]

If I wanted to process all the ore in a biome in pure ingots with water does it make more sense to load water into trains and take it to a central area where the ore is belted, or load all the ore into trains and take it to where a large water source is? Or just use smelters?

[silent mortar]

Push all the ore out to the ocean. Easier to send goods out to the water than to bottle or pipe or train water to a location.
2 rich caterium nodes take 66 refineries, for example. (Well, 65, but it'd be two rows of 32.5 and well, might as well just make them even at that point.)

[patent bough]

no but i have seen a video where someone implemented Conway's Game of Life inside of Conway's Game of Life (basically you zoomed out far enough and you could see the board with giant macroblocks of cells turning on/off following the same rules as the base game)

[near sorrel]

Nifty

[mortal spindle]

Is there an optimal place to do that?

[fringe loom]

Hello just a quick question, Is there a way to get to end game factorys fast?

[oblique isle]

Speed run it

[exotic ledge]

if i have 10 coal generators and 4 water extractors, that's 480 production and 450 consumption.

Is there a benefit to creating an 11th coal generator and underclocking it so that it only consumes 30 water? This would evenly divide my 480 water production but I have no idea how relevant it is to underclocking power generators...

[stark bronze]

Or have 8 generators with 3 extractors, unless you are desparate for that extra 150MW

[exotic ledge]

Desperate? Nah; Have the resources? Yup.

[stark bronze]

How though
Nodes spit out perfect amounts that are multiple of 15 and 4

Or you mixed them with steel

[exotic ledge]

I mean, I have produced the contents needed to build the buildings, and there are four coal nodes next to me and an enormous body of water, so I kinda feel pretty safe on making a bunch of generators. I just don't know if that 11th at 75% is even worth it

[stark bronze]

If you are uncomfortable with a hypothetical supply excess then yes
But keep in mind that the generators will always eat less than max consumption if you are not utilizing the full capacity, so you still cant avoid water extractors stopping constantly

[exotic ledge]

true

ty for the feedback

[stark bronze]

Yw

[last moon]

anyone know a setup for coal power? it´s my first time using it

[sand garnet]

@last moon #math-and-meta message

#old-questions-and-help message any of these setups will work

[last moon]

ty :3

[rocky cypress]

I have a mk3 miner on a pure copper node, how many refineries can I place to feed that one node for copper ingots?

[wise hamlet]

question about fluid mechanics:
I have pumps set up that pump exactly 600 L/s through a pipe (mk2 pipe). They lead to refineries which alltogether need 600 L/s to be 100%efficient.
However, now my refineries do not produce what they should produce, where they to get the amount of water calculated.
The water supply is setup as a manifold.
What goes wrong? where do i lose water/waterpressure?

[oblique hollow]

can we get an image? @wise hamlet There can be many things happening inbetween the production and consumption line

[wise hamlet]

oof, there is quite a bit of distance in between.

throughput is steady throughout the whole line at 600 L/s

or is it L/m?

it's 600 anyway

[oblique hollow]

we mostly use the m³/min

and those dont convert to L/min or L/s easily

(in fact, 1 m³/min is 1000 L/min, so we use m³ as that involves smaller numbers and is used ingame)

[arctic bramble]

I had a manifold/grid setup for pure caterium ingots that consumed 600m3/min as well, and I had 3 refineries going dry. That was BEFORE the 3.5 update though so I was using two mk1 pipes that had to be connected somewhere because 300m3/min is enough for 7.5 refineries (and I had 15). What I'd suggest would be to add something like 30m3/min at the other end of your main pipe

[wise hamlet]

right

i'll try that

[oblique hollow]

Oh yea, your Refineries at the end will starve until all the machines before them have filled their internal storage with water

[bleak coral]

I'm starting to see more reports of starved machines at the end of manifolds that are full when the manifold needs the full pipe's worth

I think @hot ginkgo was the first one to mention it

[hot ginkgo]

I'm going to try and get a video of it. I first saw it during the devs vacation.

[hot ginkgo]

I havnt read above. But consuming and supplying 300 fluid into a manifold causes the end of the manifold to starve.

[bleak coral]

I wonder if it's some weird combination of low fps, floating point errors, and fluctuations leading to the average flowrate being just a bit too low

[hot ginkgo]

At that time I was experiencing a lot of thermal throttling. I've since fixed it. So well see if it still happens.

Now at 60 fps solid with all medium.

[oblique hollow]

tbh i blame the Mk. 2s. They are still heavily fluctuating

[hot ginkgo]

My specific occurrence happend before mk2s.

[bleak coral]

the mk2s have probably made it worse though

[hot ginkgo]

I tried again after 3.5. Still happened with mk1s and supplying 300. Replacing all with a mk2 fixed it.

[bleak coral]

oh I think I know what's happening, because of the hard limit it can't average out correctly

say for 3 ticks there's a tick with 300, one with 206, and one with 394

[hot ginkgo]

And that is shown with mk2 pipes. When supplying 300 oil with a single extractor. I saw huge fluctuations. Far above 300. And far below.

[bleak coral]

that'd average out to 300, but because of the limit it'd be 300, 206, 300 which would average out to about 269 isntead

[hot ginkgo]

I feel like I recall seeing the lower fluctuations with mk1s only being around 290. And very rarely.

Placing a buffer inline only shows an input of 301.

[bleak coral]

so I guess for now the solution to starved machines on a system that should be working is to double end it if there's a problem

so the liquids can freely fluctuate and average out to the right flowrate

[hot ginkgo]

That helped my end machine starving. The middle of the manifold struggled a little under full load. But fluid levels remained constant, but low, for the few minutes I watched it.

[hexed forum]

do I understand correctly that manifold is when delivery is always divided by two, or, evenly down the line?

[hot ginkgo]

A single feed thats split right infront of each machine.

Anything in real world factories use it on water systems.

Or any liquid really.

[bleak coral]

you can have single-sided or double-sided manifolds both for splitting and merging

[hot ginkgo]

@hexed forum like this.

[dusky dust]

Yeah, feeding from both sides didn't actually solve it for me; just sort of moved around which machines were having the issue

So I guess the question is what that means for a mk2-fed system that's getting max'd out...

[hot ginkgo]

Sounds like its time for a QA post.

[dusky dust]

'cause you wouldn't be able to have those periods of over-flow, like you would when using a mk2 to supply 300/min

[viscid shadow]

I like having overflow options for production but not energy

[hot ginkgo]

We're talking supply issues and probably underlying math errors when maxing out supply and consumption of pipes.

300m³/m of supply, and the same consumption in a manifold for some reasons starves the end machines.

With mk1s.

I'm assuming the same problem with mk2s.

[viscid shadow]

do you have a supply buffer to make sure the belt is feeding propperly?

[hot ginkgo]

Shouldn't need it. A buffer is basically a large pipe. Wont change anything.

[viscid shadow]

No, it just prevents interuptions

[dusky dust]

So I suppose in the interim, if I want to max out these things, it's just running mk2s for 300/min of fluid (so: double the amount of pipes coming in)

I wonder if this is a newer problem? Maybe since the mk2 introduction or something?

[hot ginkgo]

I had it before 3.5.

[dusky dust]

'cause it feels like otherwise all those 300/min oil loops that folks've been making for ages would've had a real hard time operating at 100%

Unless they were doing something other than manifolds for the liquid, anyway

[hot ginkgo]

Thats the part I dont get. Everything else was perfect. No hills, 300 supply, 300 demand. Straight shot. Why has no one else seen this issue until what feels like the last couple days?

[dusky dust]

Yeah

Pretty much why I'd been assuming I was just doing something stupid, even though I couldn't see it. :)

[hot ginkgo]

I'll play with it tonight. Try and get a good video.

Give me a good chance to test some undervolting.

Anyway, I'm off. Back to making dinner.

[dusky dust]

Thx for checking that out, btw! I was happy enough to just soldier on with it myself

(though I admit it's been enough to have me take a bit of a break from factory-building for a bit. :)

[exotic ledge]

Coal Generators consume fuel depending on how much power i'm using, but can they take more than 15 coal per minute? Or is that their limit?

Cuz thats what I've been doing my math around but have never been sure.

[hot ginkgo]

15 is the limit unless you over clock.

[exotic ledge]

cool cool

[frosty owl]

You wanna know what would help even more? 😉

Also, I personally never had this issue even before valves. I didn't use to completely "balance" fluids, but feeding a 9 line through 4 junctions never had my machines failing once those pipes fill up properly

[hot ginkgo]

I did another test set up last night. Seems to have worked. Even after letting it run for 30 minutes. I'm not sure what I fucked up before.

[exotic ledge]

I'm running a pure oil -> 8 refineries who give me 120 residue. I'm running all 120 into Petrolium Coke... How many coal factories can 360 Coke / Min power?

or another way to ask is how many units of coke is consumed via Coal generators per minute?

[hot ginkgo]

A single coal gen uses 25 coke/minute.

[exotic ledge]

25 per min... wait thats like 14 coal generators

wait thats way more than I thought we were gonna get

[hot ginkgo]

@exotic ledge

[exotic ledge]

I guess I just underestimated them so much that I forgot 360 Coke is still a lot of coke

[wispy cradle]

@exotic ledge, Try wait fuel generators.

[exotic ledge]

o-o? Still working on it XD

[rain spruce]

Question - Outsider of miners, are powerplants the best thing to use crystals on?
'cos it seems that whilst assemblers and such increase power use, all power plants do is increase their speed by 50%

[minor cradle]

and consumption

[hot ginkgo]

@rain spruce nah. Just built more. 250% overclock only gives a 200% incrase in power.

[rain spruce]

Ah.

[hot ginkgo]

Essentially wasting a shard.

[rain spruce]

And meaning that you're using 250% fuel for 200% power

[hot ginkgo]

Nope. Resurxes always make the same power no matter what.

[rain spruce]

Then why are you only getting a 200% increase in power?

[hot ginkgo]

Because that's how the math works.

[rain spruce]

Wait, so you mean it's using 200% resources, producing 200% power, but using 3 crystals?

[hot ginkgo]

Thats what it would boil down too.

[rain spruce]

Fair enough.

[hot ginkgo]

There's always a lose somewhere with overclocking.

[rain spruce]

Also, kinda finding that turbofuel is just... You need to fill SO much space with fuel generators.

I still try and make my factories look kinda good but I can't possibly imagine a way to make 150 fuel generators look good.

[hot ginkgo]

It takes up a lot of space.

I did 8 rows of around 19.

Huge field of smoke stacks.

[rain spruce]

Considering the best aesthetic solution might be to just turn a chunk of the desert road into a driveable chemical plant zone kind of vibe

Loads of smokestacks, but with lots of pipe spaghetti, industrial tanks, etc.

[hot ginkgo]

I built mine off in the north shore. Lots of space.

[rain spruce]

Yeah, I just hate doing giant square platforms.

[hot ginkgo]

Hard to do any stacking because of how tall they are. Mk2 pumps make it a little easier.

I enclosed the turbofuel production in a building with cut outs on the roof for the refinery stacks, and a multi level roof thing. Then opted to leave the fuel gens in the open.

[rain spruce]

Yeah, the big problem is the height.

[rain spruce]

Yeah, I just couldn't build that.

[hot ginkgo]

I dont have enough time for pretty. Just close it up and get it built.

[rain spruce]

Yeah. I think I'd lose interest in the game if I started building like that, is the thing. Would just feel like I was grinding out another identical cube.

I think I'll just turn the whole desert road into the chemical plant zone.

Keep the road there. Put some hecking loopdeyloops in.

[hot ginkgo]

I can see that point. I find more joy in the mechanical set ups and all the logistics.

[minor cradle]

this game was indeed made to be played how you want so go nuts

[hot ginkgo]

Less about the buildings.

[rain spruce]

I mean, my biggest factory has a factory cart skateboard park on top of it XD

oh yeah, totally not saying you're wrong to play like that, just figuring out the best way to stick 140 fuel generators in a way that ISN'T a giant deathcube

Not a math conversation tho so

[minor cradle]

i very much enjoy setting up logistics

[rain spruce]

I know I have a small fuel factory that looks like a giant v8 engine

Designed it to just look like a big hot rod engine.

[sweet dust]

What is 4+4?

[rancid fox]

44

[ivory pier]

Now you're doing math like a true FICSIT employee

[late swan]

Do you need big steel beam production?

Apparently, encased steel pipe alt is more efficient and I don't think it's used in other intermediates.

[wind spade]

if you use a lot of steel beams, then yes

[late swan]

So, probably just enough to top you off between construction projects.

[wind spade]

depends what you're talking about, for my production lines every line produces only items to storage, so I don't need too many steel beams

[minor cradle]

hard to tell maybe but i have pipes and beams overflow to be encased as well as make stators for motors then overflow again to sink

[wind spade]

if some other production lines requires steel beams for something, it makes them onsite

I don't have one central production of all steel beams for everything

[late swan]

I have 2 nearby coal nodes, and use it to process local iron ore into steel. I wanted to dedicate 1 to beams (=> encased beams) and another to pipes (=> stators and heavy frames), but RNG gave me encased pipe alt and apparently a full deposit worth of steel beams would be overkill.

[wind spade]

I plan for a given output I want, rather than to use 1 full node

[late swan]

So, i'm currently trying to wrap my head about how to divide the steel processing industry.

[minor cradle]

i maximize nodes regardless of production

can always sink extra until needed

[late swan]

Well, nope, forgot that beams are needed for versatile framework. A LOT of beams.

[dense mica]

Always need MOAR steel

[late swan]

I'm thinking about switching to fuel gens instead of coal, build a train to that big-ass coal deposit (the one with 4 normal nodes) and smelt everything into steel.

[odd ember]

1+1 ?

[late swan]

Or just explore further coal deposits and leave that coal place as absolutely massive power plant above the lake.

[minor cradle]

@odd ember I believe the answer is 100,000,000

[odd ember]

WOAH

[minor cradle]

Maybe I'm thinking too small though

🤣

[odd ember]

yea what about 100,000,000,000,000?

[minor cradle]

Should be fine till we move off planet 😋

[odd ember]

yes

xD

[feral tangle]

@wind spade

1+1 ?

[quick gorge]

@wind spade
2+2 ?

[proud sail]

@wind spade
1/(s-a) ?

[sullen marsh]

9+10?

[near sorrel]

so how do you guys use the calculator thingys... I am not sure that they allow for like an overall build of the factory do they... just one item output at a time kinda thing

So if I put in a total number of all my input materials... and want 5 different products to come out of the factory... it's not going to split them up between the five right?

[wind spade]

@near sorrel which calculator do you talk about?

[near sorrel]

I have mostly used the satisfactorytools.com calculator

but if any of them do work... I will start using that one

fair enough

[wind spade]

well that one allows you to calculate multiple items at the same time (and also have multiple tabs)

[minor cradle]

As well as allowing for maximize calculations

[near sorrel]

I totally missed the part where it said to add new items to that particular tab

but I don't know how optimized it actually is... I have some excess resources from me trying to rebuild everything... so I put that in there and it acts like it wants me to create stuff I don't need... and do nothing with it

[hot ginkgo]

Fun fact, greeny also made that site. In my opinion. Its hands down the best calculator site we have.

Can you share the plan you have? I'll take a look and see what you're looking at.

[near sorrel]

Yeah I don't know how I missed it... but the option to add stuff to the factory just completely hid itself from me

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=WO7UAjZHPp6eGpfnNyCo

I think that's how that should work

but I have two industrial storage containers full of cable and copper sheet... figured to make sure everything would run together I would need everything running as I built it

[bleak coral]

the multiple maximize equalizes their ppm, you can use the slider to change how much they make proportionally

[hot ginkgo]

I see what you did.

You put an input of cable and copper sheets. But you're not using all of it. So the excess comes out as a final product.

[near sorrel]

oh...

[bleak coral]

yeah just choosing maximize for everything is not very useful

[near sorrel]

Well when I said two... I meant two each on the industrial cable

[bleak coral]

try doing one at at time and switching them to items/min after

[near sorrel]

what do you mean

[hot ginkgo]

I personally tend to make plans based off common inputs and do smaller factories. Decide on outputs and gather whatever inputs are needed.

Instead if limiting my self to whatever is nearby. If I need more I get more.

[near sorrel]

I am just trying to make the most efficient one I can with what I have available... I got 3 normal iron nodes next to each other at my main location, 2 normal copper nodes, and a limestone node... by my coal nodes of which there are 4 about... 800 meters away from my main base I think... that part doesn't matter too much because I have built a conveyor from there to my main base... most of which is still standing after the optimization

and by the coal nodes I have 1 pure iron node

then I have 1 regular and 2 impure oil nodes next to each other about 500 meters from my coal nodes... I am on tier 6 I need the stuff to get to tier 7 and 8

and to finish up the train milestone

of which I mostly need the computer and the H Mod Frames

[bleak coral]

honestly a calculator can't plan your factory for you, it can just do the math

you need to decide how much of each of those to go to the separate end products

[near sorrel]

but for 7 and 8 it's versatile framework... modular engines and adaptive control unnit

[bleak coral]

or how much ppm you need for each end product, and if you don't have enough raw resources go get more

[near sorrel]

so if I want 5 computers a minute... I plug that in and then plan around it? that makes sense I guess

[bleak coral]

exactly

[near sorrel]

i know where one other pure iron node is... it's not too close and it's on a cliff... but I can probably make it work

[bleak coral]

or the other way, if you have 600 iron you want to use, decide how much you want to allocate to each product and plan from there

[hot ginkgo]

And while you're making those computers, also consider making circuit boards and other things involved for storage.

[near sorrel]

well that is what I am trying to figure out... what is the best way to get the most out of what I already have

for the things I need

But setting a goal seems more strategic

[hot ginkgo]

I only consider what I want to make. And gather whatever I need.

[near sorrel]

I am not used to a game that does so much stuff automated like this... I have played tons of ark and minecraft... ark is pretty much not automated at all and minecraft can be... but it's a pain and a half to figure out how to make it work even a little

so when it comes to something that just spits products out... it's like... well I need this so I need to build these and I need this so I need to build these here and there and then I am out of resources

[swift robin]

automate all the things

[hot ginkgo]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=r913NvFPHuxl2YML7zR8

This for example is my steel factory. Common items with common inputs. I have a separate iron factory that is complete self contained.

[swift robin]

and then automate the automation when they get signal logic XD

[near sorrel]

and I wind up with a mess of spaghett with very little meat ball

[bleak coral]

you should have mk2 miners and mk2 pipes right?

oh your resources are way too low in the calculator, you have more available from what you listed than you've put into the calculator

[near sorrel]

I don't have the mk2 pipes yet

... wait

[bleak coral]

overclocked miners

[near sorrel]

I don't remember if I do off the top of my head

I have mk 2 miners, mk 4 belts

about 1 thousandth of the amount of power shards that klepdar has

if not less

[hot ginkgo]

He aslo has 80 doggos.

[near sorrel]

lol

yeah I don't even know where mine went... i had like 3

they are around somewhere I hope

[hot ginkgo]

Gotta keep them in cages.

[near sorrel]

oh...

i didn't know they would find stuff if they weren't free roaming

[hot ginkgo]

Ohh yeah. They probably fell off a cliff and died somewhere.

[near sorrel]

oh... didn't know that was an option

lol... guess they will be working on that for future updates

[fierce ruin]

do you guys have a safe way to farm doggos?

Since they are giving me more radioactive stuff than usual.

[silent mortar]

Most extreme pet handlers have an emergency storage container in the pet enclosure, so they can quickly toss stuff into it, then have it belt out the back end of the storage all the way out into the endless void into another storage container.

[viscid shadow]

Ah yes, the corner of the map that will never fill up ever, until it does

[wind spade]

You just build enough containers so that it won't fill up in a reasonable amount of time

[peak basalt]

@fierce ruin 1 or 2 nuclear waste isn't that bad tbh. Just make a container out of your base to store it in. You can either belt it there or take it by truck.

[pulsar iron]

where is the best place to put 100,000 nuclear waste?

[wind spade]

edge of the map that you don't use for your factory / high in the sky

though 100k waste only radiates ~28 foundations far, so you can put it pretty much anywhere

[glacial hemlock]

either top left or top right corner of the map, then elevate them to about 2km high to be safe

[wind spade]

well considering that you only need ~200 meters of distance from them, that seems like an overkill

[fresh elm]

Yeah I don't see any reason to make them not ground level

I mean, heck, my entire nuclear plant even has a pretty well contained region for radiation

I mean, it's a BIG region but it works very well

[wise grove]

There's enough void holes in the map ... build a stair down there and put containers just above the dead line. There's even some "breaches" in the rocks, you can put the containers below the walkable ground without glitching yourself under the map.

[sand garnet]

honestly i dont recommend using the void holes

better to go far away horizontally or UP vertically

instead of going down

there's only 200m below height 0 before reaching the damage barrier, but there is 2km above height 0

so lots more time before radiation starts affecting anything in your regular play area

[glacial hemlock]

void hole doesn't seems to be a good idea, you know, they are too small to contain the radiation. (the emission of radiation cannot be shielded by any entity)

[wise grove]

240m to be precise.

[fresh elm]

TBH I don't regret building my waste storage in the northern ocean

it will never reach the shore from there

at least, not without the math changing

[sand garnet]

"Engineers take damage beyond Z:-244 (underground) and Z:1997 (sky), measured on the foundation the engineer is standing on. It is not measured whether the z-axis border is at a uniform height."

so 244m to be EVEN MORE PRECISE :p

[fresh elm]

thanks tom 😉

[wise grove]

So ... build the foundations to be walked on at Z -244 and from there go 8m (2 foundations) further down, actually not go but build and plop your containers on the surface which is at Z -252 -> et voila

Oh, actually do that away from any walkable ground, like the void in the southmost part of the map.

[fresh elm]

this is still significantly more work than is required to deal with nuclear waste

even with 472.5 reactors running full time 24/7 it would take me quite a while (6-7 months iirc) to even worry about my containers filling, and that radiation will never reach the shore

[glacial hemlock]

@wise grove if you careful enough not to take damage, you can build at -343m (while standing on -244 when building)

[fresh elm]

Does anyone still have the 3d visualization tool link?

I haven't played with it in months but kinda felt like it

[wise grove]

Well, yeah, I think I could achieve that. But I didn't bother to set up a nuclear plant yet 😃 so I still have some time to practice until I need to use this "skill".

[hot ginkgo]

@fresh elm https://github.com/ficsit-felix

[fresh elm]

I believe this is in fact what I was lookin for thanks

let's see what happens when I load my save

okay yeah this is pretty cool

and it works mostly for viewing my save too

[last moon]

i think this isn´t the best design for iron and subproducts

[fierce ruin]

its neater that what i have done

okay math question 6 copper + 4 water = 15 copper ignots then going another refinery that 3 copper ignots + 3 water = 3 copper sheets what would a good ratio of refineries

1 ingot refinery to 5 sheet refinery?

[rancid crest]

you got it

[coral salmon]

if that builds one of each subproduct then just leave it for your stockpile replenishment. then pave over it and start building your real factory. one cool thing about a sub level is middle and late game you can rig it to make things like your beacons and ammo

[thorn knot]

Hi guys, could you please help me with math? If i need 13.33 supercomputer manufacturers, how to count underclocking for 14 of them?

[bleak coral]

You can simply divided the total clockspeed by the total number of machines, then round up so you don't underproduce

in this case 13.33/14 ~= 0.952, so 96% for each machine

[thorn knot]

@bleak coral neat! Thanks a lot!

[bleak coral]

if you're not load balancing, it's more efficient though to do 13 100% clock speed machines and one 34% machine

[thorn knot]

Hmm. Why so? I was going to manifold em.

Two equal rows of 7

[bleak coral]

because of rounding errors, by rounding up 14 machines from ~95.2% to 96% you get an excess of ~10% vs just the extra 0.7% from rounding from 33.33% to 34%

I think the spread out clock speed still ends up more power efficient, but they'll turn off and on more so the power will be less stable

whatever you want more though, I doubt it's that big of a difference either way

[thorn knot]

Oh! I see. Cumulative error is higher than one machine error.

[bleak coral]

yes

[midnight mantle]

Och my gooood!

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production
WHYYYY Tell me WHYYYYYYYY i found it after i make biggest excel table in my life....

[glacial hemlock]

Good job

One has to learn math before using calculator, not the other way round.

[trail maple]

definitely gonna use that from now on lmao

[oblique hollow]

that sheet itself looks more like a drawing of a factory than a spreadsheet

[trail maple]

I'm trying a modular factory, so I needed to make sure the building footprints were within each cell

[glacial hemlock]

Organized, much like the directory we often seen in the ground floor of an office building. Neat.

Attempting to allocate a certain area to something is not a good idea though, most setup will have different footprint

[trail maple]

that's the challenge :)

[exotic stirrup]

Don't worry, I had written a script to do the math for me for production lines before I found that there were online tools...so at least you aren't alone in "wasted" time 🙂

[obsidian sluice]

I have a thing for using excel to automate tasks and calculations, but I've yet to come up with something that hasn't been done yet

which kinda just means I should get around to learning an actual programming language so I can do more

[old ember]

I'm building a factory like that at the moment, separate towers for different secions. It's actually not to bad since the footprint is largely defined by the largest machine in the tower. So constructors/smelters are 3 wide and multiples of 1 long, up to manufactures which are 7 wide and multiples of 4 long.

A little bit of planning in advance and it all tesselates together pretty much spot on.

[obsidian basin]

i wonder if it is mathematicly possible to have a full mk5 belt with turbomotors ?

[wind spade]

it's not, since there's not enough resources on the map

current maximum is 156/min, capped by bauxite

@obsidian basin

[bleak coral]

technically it's possible to have 2x however many ISCs you fill up full mk5 belts for about 1 1/2 minutes 😛

[sinful vale]

alternatively you can just fill a container, and have a belt that goes from the output to it's input and enjoy the carousel

[bleak coral]

infinite full turbomotor belt haha

[minor cradle]

is this really the max for the entire map?

[dusky dust]

Yes

[minor cradle]

dont get me wrong 156/m turbo motors does sound crazy

[sinful vale]

yeah, there is not that much bauxite in comparison to other stuff

once that you use it all, there is no way to expand your turbo motor production

[minor cradle]

well in the real world we dont use copper heatsinks because of cost but this is satisfactory maybe i should ask for copper heatsink alternative

[dusky dust]

Copper heat sink is the alternative. :P

(though yes, copper does go into the Alclad sheets)

[bleak coral]

if you really want to drain the map: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=TlIogYWLDdU1fRQkHqeA

@proven sphinx the max HMF I mentioned in #off-topic-tech

[proven sphinx]

70k iron ore per min

[bleak coral]

that's all of it, all the iron ore

[sinful vale]

that sounds like a logistical nightmare big enough to kill my pc way before i finish it

[bleak coral]

I'm pretty the only things it doesn't max are sulfur (and just barely), quartz, bauxite, and uranium

I would delete satisfactory, leave the server, and drink to forget it not even 1/10th of the way through that project

oh and I guess it leaves caterium pretty well alone, it's still like 1/3rd of it

[late swan]

BTW, is it worth producing space elevator parts after unlocks for points?

[proven sphinx]

Still tho ..1 belt is what ? 780? Thats about 90 belts just with iron ..

[late swan]

I feel sadness knowing that after i build the infrastructure for them and churn out the needed amount I'll just scrap everything.

[bleak coral]

maybe, here's the list by points: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/AWESOME_Sink#Points_generated_per_item

the first ones are probably not worth leaving up forever, but they make a lot of points relative to other stuff at the time

[sinful vale]

it's worth the points, yeah, but in all honesty, there is always somewhere more useful to throw the resources than a sink

[proven sphinx]

So, just to get enough resources in to the facotry , you need a total of 180 mk5 belts.. even before you start making anything

[bleak coral]

it all ends in a sink anyway

at least my factory does

[dusky dust]

@late swan I've kept those lines in place just 'cause I figure maybe Tier 8+ will end up using them

[proven sphinx]

@bleak coral exept nuclearwaste

[dusky dust]

Or that they might end up being needed for other Tier unlocks or something

[bleak coral]

there's also some mods that use them, if you want to check those out

I wouldn't if it's your first playthrough though

[late swan]

Yeah, I bet tier 8 would include component that uses previous ones as ingredients, according to established pattern. But I don't think T9 would come in the near future.

[proven sphinx]

Im just hoping mk6 belts and next rier drills is around the corner, so we can go from ... "nah my pc can't handle a factory this big , to"oh sh** my house is on fire "

[sinful vale]

i don't think mk6 will come until tier 9 rolls around, considering that mk5 are unlocked at tier 7

so we will have to wait a good while

[proven sphinx]

The only thing I know for a fact is that mk6 belts is gonna get released on tuesday
Im not saying wich Tuesday or wich decade... but I know it will be a tuesday

[wind spade]

we don't know even that

[sinful vale]

what if it doesn't get released on a tuesday?

[proven sphinx]

Isnt that what they kept on saying for the last big update?

All we know is that we will release it this tuesday or the next.. or the one after.... im pretty sure thats what i remember from one of their streams 😂

[sinful vale]

i don't think that tier 9 will be released along side tier 10 and 1.0

so it wouldn't be the last big update

[edgy vault]

Isnt the max speed of conveyors internally like 2k/min? Should we expect to actually be able to use those sort of numbers eventually?

[proven sphinx]

@sinful vale i ment the big update that we got now .... the most recent one with pipes

[sinful vale]

i wasn't around before update 3, so i can't confirm or deny those claims

[bleak coral]

it's a pretty confident guess that there'll be at least a mk6 belt to be able to max out pure nodes with mk3 miners, but beyond that who knows

there's some technical issues belts run into the faster they go, which are made worse by lower FPS

[sinful vale]

i doubt that there will be anything besides mk6 belts, unless they for some reason decide to add mk4 miners and mk7 belts on tier 10

[bleak coral]

unless they improve overclocking in some way to reduce the number of machines even further and maybe with more power efficiency, I don't see the point

we can already push the game to its limit with just mk3 miners

or truthfully beyond its limit

[glacial hemlock]

@edgy vault it is 1.2k/min, i forgot the source

[sinful vale]

so yeah, we will stop at mk6 belts and mk3 miners

[peak basalt]

I was thinking the internal limit was 2k also. The unreleased mk6 on the wiki has the limit of 1200.

But it is pretty pointless to go beyond 1200.

[bleak coral]

lol add mk6 and an extra node for uranium and make it pure

truthfully though I feel sulfur is in a bit of a weird spot, it'd be nice to have a bit more of it and tweak some of the compacted coal stuff to be more efficient

I'd like to be able to say compacted coal for power plants and steel is good, but there's just not enough sulfur and the burn time / resource use isn't good enough for that to be true

[glacial hemlock]

@bleak coral i am sure uranium is not the bottleneck, it is the sulfur

[cedar mica]

Math puts 1800 uranium at a 3105 Sulfur usage, once you have made 94.5 Fuel Rods

[hot carbon]

i create a turo fuel plant from a single oil node (600m³) 2 sulfur nodes 2 coal nodes it isnt much but the refinery and the 296,296 (i use 300) engines are the struggle

[glacial hemlock]

@cedar mica oops, i see

[keen rock]

Even if they don’t add Mk. 6 belts, It would be nice to just have a second output on the Mk. 3 Miner so you could get that full 1200

[night jay]

I think it will be very likely that mk. 6 belts happen, and if so the final throuput for them will be enough to take a mk 3 miner at 250% overclock. Its what they did with pipes (If i remember that right)

[sand garnet]

mk6 belts will only happen if they figure out how to prevent throughput issues like the ones that currently occur at very low FPS

[wind spade]

I'm not sure why everybody wants mk6 belts when pretty much nobody yet maxed out the map

[night jay]

speeeeeeed

[sinful vale]

to not have to have 2 nodes instead of 1, not because the nodes don't produce enough, but rather because there is no belt fast enough, i hate to think about that, at least i don't have to worry about it with oil anymore

[wind spade]

what's the difference, if you have enough nodes anyway

at least it pushes you towards more separate factories, which is always a good thing

[sand garnet]

the same logic could apply to 'why add anything beyond mk3/ 4' though

[exotic ledge]

Because of the "Only Use One Node Per Resource" challenge.

[sand garnet]

the main reason would be 'because people dont want to use the whole map in pretty much 90% of cases lol

[wind spade]

ok so if I say "no iron challenge", I need to shout at devs all the time that they need to add a way to craft everything out of copper?

[exotic ledge]

A challenge needs to be able to be beaten, you know. 😛

One Node Per Source can be beaten.

[wind spade]

but still it's not the intended way of playing the game, so the game doesn't need to be adjusted to such a way

[exotic ledge]

LOL It's not the reason why people want fast belts.

[wind spade]

"because I play the game differently than you intended, I want you to make change X" is just not a valid argument

[exotic ledge]

I never ever said that.

You said "Why" and I answered with one reason why. It's a reason why I want fast belts. But I never said they HAD to change anything for it.

[night jay]

I think mk 6 belts would be a neat addition, but I understand it can be a little impractical in Satisfactory's current build.

[sand garnet]

for me, the reason would be that mk3 miners cant be fully utilized and it just seems like flawed design

its why mk2 pipes made sense as well, as they now match the max capacity of pure oil nodes

[sinful vale]

i get really annoyed at the fact that i have this mk3 pure miner, and i know that it produces enough to feed my factory, but i can use it 'cause the belts aren't fast enough, same deal with mk2 pipes and pure oil nodes

[twin jacinth]

jesus this is driving me crazy. How am I doing exactly 400/min output iif I have 7 machines each outputting 60/min at 100%. This is 6,666667 so it would be 6 machines at 100% and 1 machine at 66,66667% but Im afraid this will mess up the system. Is it even possible to make exactly 400/min output !? So maximum there are 7 machines to play with.

[sinful vale]

if the input/output of both of those steps is hardcaped (not enough input for more than 400/the output can't take more than 400) so that the output will only work as 400, then it should balance it self out if you put the 7th at 67%

[twin jacinth]

There is even a loopback in the system, so to be honest I cant tell what will happen if I cant make exactly 400

This stupid 2/3 is there in the system in 3 different stages

so I really want to make 400. Not jsut me, but also OCD queen

[sinful vale]

it shouldn't matter how many steps in a row you have, if at some point, either the input/output caps, then it should be fine, it will only take longer to balance itself

if you have 20 steps, if 18 are at 66.66, as long as the input or final output of them combined caps it, it should be fine

[twin jacinth]

so it should the nearest integer percentage that is ABOVE the desired value right? so If I want 2/3, which is 66,67% then I have to set 67% and not 66%, right?

[sinful vale]

yes

[twin jacinth]

so. Im making packaged diluted fuel. That needs 30 HoR and 60 packaged water per refinery. My Hor Input is exactly 200, which is enough for 6,666667 refinery. 6 will get 30 and 1 will get 20. If I set that one refinery to 67% then it will need 20,1 but it receives only 20. On the other input 400,2 packaged water is coming, so 6 will get 60 and the stupid refinery gets 40,2. But the stupid refinery will be limited by the 20 HoR which is paired with only 40 water. So it accepts 40 water but it gets 40,2. So packaged water will be backing up. I dont know, I calculated only till this point

Do I have to set that nearest integer percentage above the desired value at 1.) the eater extractor, then at 2.) packaging machines stage1, then at 3.) refineries, then at 4.) packaging machines stage2? So all along the chain ?

[oblique hollow]

Wait, where exactly along the line is that one percent happening

[twin jacinth]

I need 13,3333 water extractor. 26,666667 packager, then 26,666667 refineries, then again 26,666667 packager