math-and-meta

[unique cypress]

maybe the resin byproduct from my power plant will be enough

[lone igloo]

I got shit load resin from my power plant. Time to add canister loader

[crimson moat]

Some stuff consumes cannisters or fluid tanks, but yeah, most stuff does not

[agile junco]

I know drones do.

[crimson moat]

for example turbo diamonds is an efficient p5 recipe that just eats turbofuel with their cannisters, because the particle accelerator doesn't have a liquid input

[agile junco]

Oh yea. I have plans for that at some point.

[crimson moat]

jetpack too

[unique cypress]

it does have a fluid input tho

[crimson moat]

but yeah for the most part you can get by with a little production per min into a dimensional depot buffer, and pull stacks out where you need them. For a big preload, keeping a larger buffer in front of the DD that you can visit in person might be useful.

[unique cypress]

and I have no clue why that recipe doesn't just use liquid turbo tbh

[crimson moat]

Lmao you're right

[agile junco]

I just finished my first real semi-large factory, going to clean it up, but I need to decide what to do next.

[dusky dust]

Yeah, that's always struck me as weird. I just assume that the process needs some aluminum for whatever reason. :P

[agile junco]

Maybe it needs the plastic too lol

[unique cypress]

especially because there are 2 recipes for turbo ammo

[agile junco]

Wait really?

[unique cypress]

!wikisearch rifle

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=rifle

[unique cypress]

I was baffled too when I first noticed that

[crimson moat]

i demand liquid turbodiamonds

[agile junco]

Oh you can give it either form of fuel.

[unique cypress]

I'll mod it when I have time

assuming nobody did before me

[agile junco]

Luckily plastic is usually pretty on hand for a fuel plant.

[crimson moat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2DTsS7cmMw

[crimson moat]

I have a lot of plastic AI limiters

but actually i think i am making iron cannisters

[unique cypress]

there's nothing on SMM that I can see

[crimson moat]

probably one of those niche things where not a lot of people dig into P5 and people like me assumed it was done for a good reason 😄

[unique cypress]

fuck it, if my UE Editor isn't broken (again) I'm gonna do it now

[dusky dust]

Be sure your modded recipe also requires Empty Canisters to make up for the material difference. :D Convenience!

[brisk urchin]

me when my friend makes spaghetti in an actual factory

and or extreme clipping

he loves to be space efficient

(yes extreme extreme)

[agile junco]

Are alternate recipes essentially just an additional config file entry?

[unique cypress]

no, I cannot (easily) edit game files. the mod creates extra files for the game to load, which'll just include the recipe and the conditions for unlocking it

I could do it with contentlib, which I think overwrites/adds to game files, but idk if I could make the unlock condition to be the regular turbo diamonds recipe using that tool

[agile junco]

I just mean, I was wondering if there was a standardized description format for a recipe you can register.

[vapid gorge]

@fluid crater

this is the pipe loop I use when I bottom feed, but I still don't recommend it

you'll probably wan tto put a powered pump just before the manifold starts horizontally.

under clock a few machines so the system floods, then ramp it up

[fluid crater]

I've tried that, but the upper connecting pipe was to the side rather than above. Should functionally be the same though.

[unique cypress]

it's all in UE Editor

[vapid gorge]

make hte loop exactly like that. remove the buffer, under clock and flood. Put the pump on it

[vapid gorge]

I do this a lot

I still don't recommend it though. You need immaculate piping to run bottom feeding espcially near or at 600 flow

using mk1 as inputs can sometimes help too

[visual ocean]

Question for people with big drone networks. How much batteries are you making?

I now have around 23 ports and will keep expanding. Some are refuel stations with a main fuel station.
But i'm switching from TF to batteries and I'm not sure how much to make. Is 200 a lot?

[dusky dust]

In my experience, Batteries tend to be consumed at about 2.5/min (ish). Specifics will depend on the route in question, but I've never seen it go below 2/min and never above 3/min

When looking at the fuel-usage parameters on the Drone Port, there's a couple of caveats unfortunately:

1. After loading a game, make sure the drone has made two deliveries -- after that point, the round-trip-time shown should be correct
2. The fuel-used-per-trip should be correct, though it'll show as a rounded value
3. The per-minute fuel shown is, IME, wrong. Though it does tend to report more Battery usage than there actually is.

So, anyway, after two deliveries, you should be able to use the round-trip time plus fuel-per-trip to get that route's per-minute battery usage

[vapid gorge]

I might just stick to TF unless you find the change interesting. Next change will be feeding plutonium rods

[dusky dust]

Alternatively, if you save your game after the drones have made a couple of trips, SCIM will compute the per-minute battery usage accurately, so you could look at it that way

Note that Rocket Fuel and Batteries operate nearly identically in drones; Rocket Fuel is technically a bit better, and for a lot of folks, packaged rocket fuel might be a bit easier to make

(on my 1.0 save, my average Rocket Fuel consumption per route was about equal to my Battery consumption per route, interestingly; given the routes I had, the slight advantages in Rocket Fuel didn't really show up much in the numbers in practice)

(relevant Questions reports for the bugs re: the caveats above, btw: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6780c209c10ae65555c7a5ad, https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6780c4b2c10ae65555c7a5af)

[crimson moat]

A drone is typically below 3 rocket fuel per min, i allocated something like 250 rocket fuel and most of it went unused even with huge drone farms

[dusky dust]

Yeah, my RF usage was 2.5/min ish just like Batteries

[crimson moat]

RF is a little cheaper on aluminum per energy and it's also multipurpose (jetpack fuel, power)

[dusky dust]

Heh, yeah, my Battery average was actually 2.54/min, and my Rocket Fuel average was 2.50/min. :D (Had 37 Battery routes (plus 11 fuelling drones), and 32 Rocket Fuel routes (plus 7 fuelling drones))

[unique cypress]

"a little cheaper" is a bit of an understatement when it's like half

half the machines too

[visual ocean]

I'm thinking about this change because I have bauxite, coal and sulfur (remains) all in one spot.
It's also the same spot has the TF for drones.
So my thought process is to get the TF packaged, shipped from the oil coast to the blue crater via trains and use for rocket fuel - jetpack and some extra generators.

I'm just not sure how much batteries to make. I can use up to 1200 bauxite but my sulfur intake gotta stay around 900 max

[dusky dust]

Eh, what're you gonna use that Bauxite for anyway. :D

Yeah, if you've got sulfur right near the aluminum site and you need to spin up more aluminum anyway to package Rocket Fuel, it might feel more convenient to just make batteries. That's what I did for my first drone fuel depot. (Though when I needed more, I did move to rocket fuel)

I didn't want to have to work out logistics to get Empty Tanks down near my rocket fuel production when I was first setting it up, so batteries it was. :D

[vapid gorge]

if you think that'll be the fuel you stick to and you'll have tons of drones? just make them all into batteries and chill

[visual ocean]

Oh no, i have no aluminium stuff done here. But i got the resources ready

[vapid gorge]

yeah use the 1200 if you want 🙂 if you're going to have an ass ton of drones

[crimson moat]

yep just plastic

[visual ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/im-all-in-poker-betting-it-all-going-all-in-sean-astin-gif-16760963

[unique cypress]

@crimson moat done
https://ficsit.app/mod/Liquid_Turbo_Diamonds

[agile junco]

Is there a way to import custom recipes to tools/modeler? that's partially why I was asking about the standard format.

[unique cypress]

yes to both. though with tools it's much harder than with modeler

[agile junco]

I'm tempted to play with your alt T9 stuff.

[unique cypress]

For modeler, it's just a simple json file that stores all data. With recipes that use vanilla items and machines, you don't even need to touch anything else.
If you want I can send you my modified modeler json file. Though it'll contain all the mods I've published. Probably except the one I posted today

[agile junco]

That'd be awesome!

I can edit it myself to add things. I may even make some of my own recipes if I think of something I want. Editing JSON is easy, though I've never touched UE editor, but I'm sure I could figure it out.

[normal latch]

wait i saw that packaging liquid/gas and shipping via freight train is more efficient than using a fluid train?

that makes no sense logically, yea? like that's just a relic of the game not doing the thing one would expect?

in other words, why isnt the fluid wagon the more efficient route when its designed for fluid transport specifically?

[brisk smelt]

fluid wagon is the lazy route

[dusky bronze]

you can fit more packaged fluid in a train than you can fit unpackaged fluid into a fluid freight car

why? who knows

[agile junco]

For the gases which may be compressed, it might make sense. For fluids, IDK.

[vapid gorge]

with liquids it's about the same, you have to have a return carriage for it

for gas you kinda have to as gas behaves poorly in buffers and it compresses 4x so it's extremely compact

[unique cypress]

The item container is a cuboid but the fluid tank is a cylinder. But both fit on the same wagon. So it makes sense that the fluid tanker has less volume

[normal latch]

thx team, except for kyo -,- i reject your cuboid v cylinder heresy :p (kidding obvs)

[vapid gorge]

whats going on in the hidden section?

[pine finch]

Below the player, just anohter "arm" of 6x2 fuel gens

Its got 2 way symmetry

[vapid gorge]

I need to see the pipes

[pine finch]

@vapid gorge

[vapid gorge]

ok so I'm pretty sure I mentioned ot keep piping as sijmple as possible last time

making a weird merger splitter balancer thing is not the way to go

[pine finch]

Yeah i couldnt think if another way to have a vertical pipe cleanly split into 4 output pipes

[vapid gorge]

why do yo uneed a vertical pipe? isn't it coming from the side?

[pine finch]

Nope lol

[vapid gorge]

jfc

make 4 pipes coming up feeding each wing.

[vapid gorge]

then flood each wing
have each pipe be independent from each other fed form machines clocked to hte right output

having fewer junctions generally also helps

[pine finch]

So i should run 4 pipes up?

[vapid gorge]

yes

[vapid gorge]

independent pipes from 4 groups of fuel producers

there's probably other methods and things yo ucan try to work out but it'll be the more sure fire way to get it working straight off

whenever possible, keep pipes simple Point A to point B

this is about as far from that as possible

What you currently have I mean

[pine finch]

Its the furthest south purple line

[vapid gorge]

the actual pipes, how they are feeding the machines

[pine finch]

Just manifolds

[vapid gorge]

like your fuel gens, I would actually need to see it. Shape and layout are important

off to have a shower though, back in a bit

[pine finch]

Half the refs dont get enough oil

Even though 600 oil is enough for the setup

[knotty hornet]

Valves look funny

[knotty hornet]

Clean up this section

[pine finch]

I have

[crimson moat]

Connect manifolds via the middle, not ends, and delete unused ends like this

manifolds also cause sloshing so in many situations you can't get 600/600 flow in the direction that you want. It's a lot safer to assume you'll get e.g. 500 tops.

It also looks like there are multiple valves in sequence there, you can't do that due to a headlift propagation bug.

[pine finch]

I got rid of the valves

[woeful zenith]

Welp that was your issue

[vapid gorge]

it looks like you branched it into 3 manifolds too

just make one long manifold and flood the system

[pine finch]

Also can somone explain why a junction that splits the main pipe into 2 sections gives a section that only needs 120/minute 300 oil per minute even after the system is drained?

[vapid gorge]

pipes run on average rates and how full the next section is. Ignore any flow rates you see essentially

[pine finch]

It also seems like the amount of liquid in the pipes decreases as the pipe goes on for no apparnet reason?

[vapid gorge]

if you have bad flow none of these observations are useful. Because you have bad flow issues

[pine finch]

How can i have bad flow

[vapid gorge]

"it looks like you branched it into 3 manifolds too
just make one long manifold and flood the system"

[pine finch]

Ok

[vapid gorge]

"it looks like you branched it into 3 manifolds too"

[pine finch]

Ok

So now i just underclock and let everything fill up?

[vapid gorge]

yeah just under clock a few machines

I'm out of the house for a while, if this doesn't work

other things you can try as it's a bit of a hard view on how thigns are

loop the manifold like so

have a powered pump at the start of the manifold

have the inputs feeding machines be mk1.

all things that can help something thats a bit wobbly

[pine finch]

Do you have to do the vertical looping?

[solid warren]

fluids always want to go down first, when you want to use a full pipe of 600, you need to make sure gravity wants to pull out liquid faster than you can pump into it

pump up your liquid to a point that's way above the ground level of your factory.. then build your factory, connect all the pipes and make sure their output is clogged.. let the entire system fill with fluids (all factories, all pipes, and the buffer tube).. then unclog your output and it should work

[wind spade]

Eh, just build pumps normally. No reason for the buffer or water tower

[vapid gorge]

literally all that does is give head lift. Like a pump.

People have some sort of placebo effect with water towers I swear

water towers are fine, they won't break anything, but... won't do anything a pump will do

[fluid crater]

I wonder why systems work fine maxed at 300 in MK1 pipes, but build the same system with 600 fluid in MK2 pipes, and the damn thing breaks

[vapid gorge]

every time you have a feed point along a manifold it'll create a gap. A chance for the fluid further along to flow backwards

this gets worse with the more flow, the more junctions and higher consumption rates of machiens

so if you have 600 vs 300 flow pipes in a similar system, you're likely to have 2x as many junctions that have potential for back flow

you could probably call it turbulence. I don't think it's too far off from the truth

[fluid crater]

I'm thinking to my coal power plant. I built it with 6 water extractors feeding 12 coal generators. The extractors were underneath the generators, and I had no pumps or loops. When I upgraded, I was forced to add both to make it work. Same number of machines, but everything is just overclocked.

[vapid gorge]

higher flow higher consumption

[fluid crater]

So I guess higher consumption is the only real change. Still... it feels like bad gameplay imo

[vapid gorge]

it's the same game play physics. You're just stressing your system more

and having multple merges and input sections into a fluid manifold is better avoided. More colliding flows

[fluid crater]

I mean the way fluids work in this game in general. It's too finnicky.

[vapid gorge]

it has a few rules

1. flow down
2. flow to more empty points

everything else develops from that. It's not weird that you get effects being more pronounced with higher flow

when machines suck fluid from a pipe, it creates an empty space where 'flow to more empty point' can effect things. The more points like that the more wobble you get

and it's the reason why bottom feeding is more of a hassle, cause it also follows the 'go down' rule back into the manifold

[fluid crater]

I rebuilt it using your vertical loop. I even cheesed the floor pipe holes by running a pipe through them so I don't have short pipes. There is a MK2 pump feeding it from below with plenty of spare head lift too. So yeah, I have sloshing in my pipes.

Still doesn't work

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah I don't recommend people do this. I say it every time I post my loop. bottom feeding is very finicky.
something you can try is using mk1s to feed the machines and have a powered pump right before the start of the manifold

then flood the whole system

But I'm also not going to stop people curious about bottom feeding. I can pretty reliably get it to work but I also know what to look for to tool it up

[fluid crater]

I put a pump up top on the very right side of the screen. It didn't change anything. I always test using a flooded system them deleting the extractor extras.

[vapid gorge]

extractor extras?

[fluid crater]

I can try MK1 feed pipes next

[vapid gorge]

oh you just mean it flooded.

but yeah, mk1s and a pump here

but w/o seeing the whole thing this is just general advice. There could be weird things before this image that's making it a bit of a mess

when you build bottom feeding you need to dedicate the whole design around it

[fluid crater]

All that you are missing in the image is an extractor with MK2 pump below feeding to the pipe on the very right up through the floor then back down to where you see it

I'm trying the MK1 and pump now

[vapid gorge]

I would still need to see it. I'm not kidding about the 'design the whole system around it'

[fluid crater]

I don't understand what good the pump will do. In this case, it isn't providing any additional headlift, so it is just a valve

[vapid gorge]

again, and I stress, this is not a layout I recommend to people.

[vapid gorge]

valves don't work to stop back flow the way you think it does

use a pump when you want that

[fluid crater]

oh?

Isn't that the whole point of them? That and limiting throughput

[vapid gorge]

fluids in front of a valve can knock the fluid behind the valve backwards

[fluid crater]

But not with pumps?

[vapid gorge]

as well as the fact that the ultimate limiting throughput is from the machines themselves

[vapid gorge]

unless the entire system is flooded in front of the pump ofc. Then it's just a wall

valves really aren't a reliable option for basically anything in hte game.

[wind spade]

Neither of which are valves good at

[vapid gorge]

valves also only allow a percentage of their flow rate through depending on how full the pipe is

iirc if you set a valve to 300 but the pipe is only half full it'll only let 150 through? I might be wrong about that though, it's been a while and I don't mess with valves

[fluid crater]

Yeah, see... that's shitty game design imo. I get they're trying to be realistic with it, but that ought to be gamified.

[vapid gorge]

the valve thing I can understand. It's a basic pipe thing. And some people do use them to make weird designs.

they just .. aren't as reliable as non valved options

[fluid crater]

Alright, I have my MK1s and pump, the system is flooded, and I'm testing

[deft lichen]

could be said about pipelines as a whole

[fluid crater]

^^^that's what I'm saying!

[vapid gorge]

oh go turn your pipes into belts already 😛

[fluid crater]

lol

So far, this setup appears to be working 100%

[vapid gorge]

if you want covered belts, well thats how you wnat your sand box.

But pipes you can get away with knowing the bare minimum having simple set upts and it'll for fine

[fluid crater]

oh dammit, just as I said that...

[vapid gorge]

was about to say, go away for a few minutes.

[wind spade]

Eh I personally like more realistic systems. Not saying SF has it perfect, but it's better than Factorio's "just connect everything to everything"

[vapid gorge]

yeah look, I could probalby get it working if you sent me the save but I don't really have time right now. Another reason I recommend same level or from above feeding for people. It's very easy to get reliable set ups like that going

[fluid crater]

There is a design standard I'm really trying to stick with in my builds. I'm not an aesthetic builder, but I do try to keep things tight and compact.

[deft lichen]

bottom feeding 💔

[wind spade]

Yeah bottom feeding usually requires special care

[vapid gorge]

you could easily put the example pipes above I think

[fluid crater]

I could. I want to get this though. There are ways to make it work. Once I have it figured out for this one, I should be able to apply the same principles everywhere.

[vapid gorge]

I designed the bottom feed loop because I do build aesthetically xD

But I still warn people away from it because it's not easy

[vapid gorge]

the easiest change you could do is make it 2x 300 flow pipes bottom feeding. That would make it easier

[deft lichen]

you have the right mindset, but trust us that bottom feeding is tricky

[vapid gorge]

split the pipe with a junction and put a powered pump on either end to keep stable.

having smaller flow pipes makes basically everythign easier

[fluid crater]

This setup seems to be working so far

[vapid gorge]

oh? what did you change?

[fluid crater]

I haven't changed anything, but there haven't been any more burps in the system in the last seven minutes.

I will continue to redesign this to try to make it smaller though

I have an identical setup on the other side

Thank you very much for your help Cobalt ♥

[vapid gorge]

oh so the pump and mk1s seem to be working?

[fluid crater]

Seem to be

[vapid gorge]

yeah no stress. Always happen to help another bottom feeding enthusiast. It's a challenge but worth it (for me)

[fluid crater]

But I will try tinkering with the variables. I want to know if the second pump is necessary or if the MK1 pipes are necessary.

[vapid gorge]

they are both things that, ime with pipe systems, can help stabalise a slightly wobbly system.

they aren't always needed. But it's super not clear when they are

for example you'll note I used mk1s in the first image, but here mk2s

both were running at or very near 600 flow pipes.

but in this 2nd image I've also got fewer machines in each line. Which is in line with 'fewer machines/junctions = better'

[fluid crater]

See, I'd like to know what the cutoff is. 6 machines can use MK2 but 7 machines needs MK1? Who knows until you tinker.

[vapid gorge]

the trouble with that is another variable will be how much each machine consumes

back before they increased fuel consumption I used to be able to run a VERY long turbo fuel manifold w/o a loop and it was fine. Each machine was only consuming 4.5 fluid pm

it does seem like instead of having 20 machines, 10 on each side of a manifold, that overclocking to 200% having 10 machines with 5 on each side tends to be more stable

so the main issue in testing is you'll have multiple variables competting

So I don't think you'll be able to break it down into solid numbers is essentially what I'm saying

the mk2 input manifolds here? only had like 8 machines on the line.

but the mk1 system I think I had 15+?

[fluid crater]

Yeah, multiple variables to account for

[vapid gorge]

you can also get around most of these issues just but running 300 flow mk1 pipes in the first place

You can do a lot to a mk1 pipe system and hve it run fine

[fluid crater]

Buuuuut, you never know what you come up with once you start visualizing the data

Sometimes a solution pops out and stares you in the face

[vapid gorge]

Hey, I'm not gonna stop you from tinkering 🙂 practical experimentation was never something I was that into. I have solid enough info for everything I'm doing and I'm pretty happy with that

[fluid crater]

I haven't really gotten to that point yet. I'm still in the learn the game and get through it part first lol

[vapid gorge]

yeah no stress 🙂 but again, just a reminder. Worst comes to worst, make smaller fluid segments of factories, and you can mess around with your pipes almost however you like

just make smaller groups of systems after your initial 600 oil section

[fluid crater]

I anticipate they'll make fluids a bit more palatable in the future

Even if it is an increase in viscosity or something to reduce sloshiness

[vapid gorge]

I wouldn't be surprised. It'll be a dark day when they turn pipes into Covered Belts

[vapid gorge]

yeah covered belts xD

like most thigns in the game, if you keep your pipes simple you really only need to know like 2 or 3 things

[fluid crater]

Or... hear me out... CLEAR pipes so we can actually see what is happening inside

Maximum slosh understanding

[vapid gorge]

I woudln't want to know how that would affect processing power

[fluid crater]

Could be something they figure out how to put in a window somehow

[vapid gorge]

and I think you can estimate the sloshing pretty well. It'd just show you the holes at the junctions

[fluid crater]

Okay, perhaps you can at least agree with me on this bit being bad game design

I have the pipeline floor holes. If I connect MK1 pipes from the loop to the bottom of the hole then from the top of the hole to the machine, it breaks. If I connect a pipe through the hole floor straight from the loop to the machine, it works. That should not be. Period.

[vapid gorge]

can you show me what you mean pls?

[fluid crater]

The one on the left is two pipes. The one on the right is one pipe. If I replace everything with two pipes like on the left, the system breaks because the individual pipe segments are shorter resulting in segments that empty out. If I use long pipes falsely cheesed through a floor hole, it is a single long pipe, and that works.

[frosty owl]

Can you take a picture of the hole-refinery connection from above @fluid crater, please? ^^

[vapid gorge]

I can believe it as it'll be 2 segments with gravity.

is it good? is it bad? it's an effect of gravity on fluids.

and how it deals with segments.
Bottom feeding is very delicate you have to remember

if you were doing the same from the same level? or from above? it probably wouldn't change anything

[fluid crater]

Second complaint... the system works perfectly with a MK2 pump at the beginning, but it does not work with a MK1 pump. They have the same max flow rate, but they only vary in power usage and headlift.

[vapid gorge]

I haven't played with mk1s in this situation so I can't really comment. It could just be you had an instability with one pump, but it settled when you changed it?
Again, bottom feeding = house of cards

it's probalby the most delicate thing you can do with pipes

[fluid crater]

Yes, but I am saying functionally, as one looks at it with their eyeballs, the two pipes are identical in length. A game should be designed such that it works the same on both pipes.=

[vapid gorge]

so in almost every situation? that will be the case. You have segments trading fluids between each other. But vertical feeding is very finicky

It's why vertical manifolds are pains in the asses.

I've seen some people make them work feeding from the top? But it's not something I suggest to people

[frosty owl]

That's like... Same level as the camera 😅
I'd like to be able to clearly see the distance between the refineries and the floor holes (so, seeing the hole from above it), if possible

[vapid gorge]

feeding vertical manifolds from the bottom? never seen anyone make that work properly. Maybe if you're doing very low flow rates?

[frosty owl]

Oof... That is a very short pipe, if made in one connection from Refinery to hole... Definetly not one pipe segment I would trust 😅

Can you build that freely or do you need some specific building modes to make that connection? (the floor-hole-using one)

[fluid crater]

The fluid mechanics should be designed such that a segment of pipe through a floor hole acts the same as a segment of pipe of the same length that does not go through a floor hole. That is my complaint.

[fluid crater]

Freely

I get to destroy the placeholder and build the mega aluminum plant next. That's why I'm deadset on getting this shit figured out here.

[vapid gorge]

it's not going to be because of the floor hole, it'll be that it's vertical

I imagine if you build that section of feed pipe in 2 sections w/o a floor hole youd get teh same effect. Cause it's vertical. Verticality can be murder because of gravity

[fluid crater]

Yeah, I don't think you understand what I'm saying

[frosty owl]

Tbh, I blame the "short pipe" segment rather than the hole. Whenever Making "too short" pipe segments, flow can get weird...

[fluid crater]

Here is what it looks like now with a single segment. This works. When I replaced it with a "proper" build connecting the floor hole, it didn't work. That is bad. It should work both ways.

I understand the mechanics of treating each pipe segment separately in the coding. I'm saying the coding should account for it and act differently than it does.

[frosty owl]

Ie: if you split the pipe in the same way (somehow) with a junction rather than a floor hole, you should see the same effect

[vapid gorge]

possibly not xD But I think this would also count as 3 sections? I'm not sure if the pipe iside counts as another section

I don't know if the fluid teleports between the two ends?

[fluid crater]

It doesn't teleport. It treats it as three segments. I'm saying it should act the same.

[vapid gorge]

I'm not going to touch on what you'd have to do for the pipes to treat it all like 1 pipe. I have zero experience coding

It acts exactly the same with gravity in consideration.

horizontal section like that? gravity doesn't effect it. Has a zero impact. I don't think that's a bad thign

you'd basically have to treat it like a gas

and there is a mod for that

[frosty owl]

@fluid crater Actually, would you mind some experimenting, to see wether you can achieve the same "bad result" by placing a junction along the non-floor-hole pipe connection?

[fluid crater]

Hang on, it's so late, I can't remember if I did this test with the MK1 or MK2 pump. I'm working on rebuilding the pipes with MK2 pump first.

[vapid gorge]

use mk2 pumps for working

at least that's what you said worked. And I've only used mk2s on this

[fluid crater]

Yeah, MK1 definitely did not work.

Shitty part is reflooding the system every time I run a test

[vapid gorge]

the joys of experimental science!! /s

after you're done with that testing you should see how hard it is making 300 flow mk1 bottom feed systems

I never actually tried low flow bottom feeds. Don't know what

[fluid crater]

I mean... that's what I had with my OG coal plant

[frosty owl]

Keep your pipes all flat and load-balanced and you can avoid any flooding

[vapid gorge]

coal plants aren't a good test subject. They're extremely resilient to bullshit

and Fresh Water and Crude Oil both tend ot be a bit more resilient and often don't need loops on basic set ups

[fluid crater]

So far, the floor holes seem to be holding up

I only replaced 3 of 8 with proper builds

I still haven't tested MK1 vs MK2 feed pipes

[vapid gorge]

orly? I thought they were mucking up before?

[fluid crater]

They were, or maybe it was the MK1 pump. I think I tested both variable changes at the same time. I can't remember.

Bad scientist. *slaps self

[vapid gorge]

better take some notes down

[fluid crater]

It's 3am. This is my last test before sleep.

Seems to work though

[vapid gorge]

just something to keep in mind, there has been some odd behaviours observed with things like VIP junctions, where the number of segments before or after has affected the mechanisms

now, VIPS are basically an exploit, so it's not weird that it has some very specific requirements, but it's something to keep in mind when you're comparing systems and how identical they are

and bottom feeding being a house of cards...

[fluid crater]

I've heard the term VIP junction, but I don't know what that is

[vapid gorge]

so there's a method for create a junction in a certain shape that will prioritize flow

[frosty owl]

That's "google-able" BTW ^^

[vapid gorge]

part of this apparently relies on the orientation of the junctions used (they aren't symetric apparently) and apparently someone has recently discovered that the numbers of actual pipe segments affect how they work too

[fluid crater]

I saw junction input priority in a video

Interesting

[vapid gorge]

yeah, mcgalleon discovered them ages ago. They are definitely not an expected result from the mechanics though

[fluid crater]

Yeah, I discovered very early on that they were not symmetrical. I about threw my computer out the window lol

[vapid gorge]

It's also not impossible, with how fiddly feeding from below is because of gravity, that a asymetrical junction could effect things. Again, this is a difficult thing to build

[fluid crater]

For sure

I'm excited to see what they improve in 1.2

[frosty owl]

Sorry, what was not symmetrical?

[fluid crater]

Pipe junctions are slightly longer in one direction than the other

[vapid gorge]

eh, they'll probably change the 'tension' or something. There's a mod that tweaks some stats of fluids and there's one people have been going on about that sounds like it effectively makes them mono directional. I'll be sad.

[fluid crater]

I don't understand Cobalt. You advocate against creativity in fluid builds, yet you don't want fluids to behave better. Better behaved fluids beget more creative builds and less time troubleshooting.

[frosty owl]

Oh yeah.
Recently, they managed to find some really interesting bugs related to that, which, funnily enough, seem to also be the "magic" powering Vip-junctions
Something that can even allow you to have fluid go up without pumps, if leveraged "correctly", iirc

[vapid gorge]

you can be creative while having a system you have restrictions on what is possible. In fact creativity can flourish with restrictions and the innovation you come up with

and it's nice having some restrictions to have to think about when designing other than max throughput

[fluid crater]

Yeah, my first coal plant had no pumps. Rebuilding it in end game tech broke that, and pumps became necessary.

[vapid gorge]

also, if you keep low flow pipes you can do just about anything you want with them

keep to 300 flow pipes and you can shape things how you like almost. Just ignore the basic fluid rules

me really wanting to feed from below for the sheer looks of it, not even mechanically, meant I found this. And it's pretty reliable if built right.

[fluid crater]

Completely unrelated gripe... I can't get rid of this damn quartz in my pond

[vapid gorge]

xD maybe SCIM?

[fallow siren]

you have hoverpack, you have extended reach

pretty sure you can get rid of it easily

[fluid crater]

I can't mine it

SCIM would be a last resort for me. I don't use mods or cheats generally.

I'm more likely to build around it and bitch until it gets patched

[vapid gorge]

maybe if you clip under ground with a hyper tube you could mine it from under?

[fluid crater]

Hmm

I seriously doubt it, but I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

[pine finch]

How do i make this work

[fluid crater]

Cobalt, seriously, thank you for all your help tonight. You probably saved me a few days of testing.

[vapid gorge]

yeah no stress. 95% of what I do on the server is help with pipes xD get people the basics mostly. Sometimes with the weirder things

hopefully after another mod gets updated I'll also help people with curves more again

[pine finch]

Is there a lhd version?

[pine finch]

Cheers

[pine finch]

Do you have a recommended gap for the train tracks

[deft lichen]

each track centered on its foundation, 1 gap foundation between

it works with less, but this is what I do and it's guaranteed to maintain a safe distance

[vapid gorge]

2 foundations next to each other, tracks centered on each, thats minimum distance for the tracks not to clip on turns

[balmy frigate]

are you not able to land on it to mine it? I can't tell from these angles if it'd be shallow enough to allow that or not

[fluid crater]

Yes, I can stand on it. Still can't mine it.

[balmy frigate]

huh, weird

[runic kraken]

is this fine or do i need to raise the pipes more?

[vapid gorge]

should be fine. You can feed them at level too

[runic kraken]

idk some1 told me raised is better

i dont understand pipes a single bit

[fallow siren]

raised helps to bring down the liquids bcs it has gravity

[runic kraken]

that much i assumed

i just dont know how much more efficient it is compared to flat

rest of my setup is flat so i hope it wont be too cooked

[vapid gorge]

efficien't isn't the right word. Just allowing flow

and a bunch of other things effect it too. Keep it to 1 pipe 1 manifold, don't branch it off to multiple manifolds

[runic kraken]

are there any good guides to pipes?

[runic kraken]

ye

[azure radish]

oh here it comes

the famous manual!

[vapid gorge]

ehhh not really. Mostly keep it simple

[runic kraken]

welp

[vapid gorge]

the manual mostly covers possible mechanics that can be created with certain objects and shapes. But typically you probably want to avoid all of it

[runic kraken]

im glad u cant see my refinery setup then

[azure radish]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/File:Pipeline_Manual.pdf

[vapid gorge]

these are fairly good tips #satisfactory message

essentially pipes can be as complicated as you make them.

keep them very simple? and they'll be very simple

add to that list, don't branch your manifold. Only have 1 per pipe.
Lower flow pipes can handle more 'mistakes' or poorer piping so if you want to not care as much about layout keep your pipe sections smaller. Like 300 flow

[runic kraken]

well that would have came in handy before i built the 300 refineries

[vapid gorge]

most people at some point make a mess of a big fluid system before really know what's going on. And then learn what to do

[runic kraken]

i tried to keep it as simple as possible

and not go over 500 fluid/min

its just 12 HOR refineries linked to 8 fuel refineries ( no diluted recipe :c)

just a fuck load of them

[vapid gorge]

layout matters a lot 🙂 next time ask for some advice in setting it up on here. I'm often floating around, feel free to ping.

[runic kraken]

yeah probably a good idea

[vapid gorge]

and having a fuel power station not be 100% isn't the worst thing in the world. It's generally not hard for them to run at 90 - 95% even when it's messy

[runic kraken]

its just a flat output manifold going up into a flat input manifold

[vapid gorge]

you've got at least 1 branch here coming from below. And the manifolds aren't looped

putting a powered pump on each output after the junction might help. But that's a patch job

[runic kraken]

yeah cuz that row of refineries needs more than 600 HOR

ik i should have built it better

[vapid gorge]

yup. gotta plan around things like that 🙂 make sections that will just take the one pipe

gotta go cuddle my rats though. As long as you're getting the vast majority of power going you'll be ok

[runic kraken]

would looping it like that work?

[runic kraken]

tysm for the help

[vapid gorge]

depends on the rest of hte pipes. Branched like that? maybe not.

[runic kraken]

idk worst case scenario ill just re build it

[waxen condor]

can pipe junctions handle more than 600p/min ?

[unique cypress]

the junction itself has no flow limit

not sure what the p in p/min stands for tho

[waxen condor]

so this should work ?

[waxen condor]

per minute

[unique cypress]

as long as no individual pipe exceeds 600/min, it'll work. in theory

[unique cypress]

per minute is /min

[waxen condor]

ok thanks should i put valves to the bottom pies which are inputs ?

[unique cypress]

valves are generally considered useless

as long as you don't have a specific reason to need one, probably don't use one

[waxen condor]

yea but they stop backflow and need no power like pumps

[unique cypress]

they prevent backflow from going past them, sure. but it just reflects off the valve, which means in most cases that doesn't make a difference

[vapid gorge]

use a pump, valves effectively don't stop back flow. But I'm not sure what you're trying to do in that image?

[jaunty lodge]

what does the 2/93 mean?

this is for how much i want to underclock

will setting to 86 work or do i want to set to 87

[unique cypress]

Do you not know what a fraction is?

[jaunty lodge]

lowkey i dont 😭 but oki uhmm meow... ok ok got it

ty

[unique cypress]

Just type in 86+2/93 into the clock speed in the machine

[wind spade]

and get slightly wrong clock speed back

[jaunty lodge]

tru is wrong but easy to change

altho the production rate doesnt changes so it was working already i think

[unique cypress]

It still needs verification, but it seems the game might save the result of the equation as an unrounded float

[unique cypress]

fun fact: it's not difficult to add modded items to Modeler

[knotty hornet]

That actually seems pretty fair

I stan

[thorny root]

I spent a considerable amount of time over the last couple days cleaning and preparing to move the refinery layer to its final resting place, and it has been moved. 56k objects offset by -115m. Ceiling still fully ugly and in the way and preventing pretty screenshots.

that ring of buffers is going away. It's a disfunctional eye sore. disregard.

[pallid knoll]

What do you guys think of this production plan as the final starter factory?

[thorny root]

I think for the effort you're going to go through trying to make only those amounts when machines and materials want to do very different things...

You could just start organically building as asked and come out ahead.

Starter factories are temporary. Why so much effort?

[pallid knoll]

Well this is my plan:
Starter factory -> explore while production -> finish T6 and Phase 3 -> build fuel powered generator factory -> start new factory mega/modular still need to decide

I just want to finish my factory as flexible factory which keeps every material available for building new factories and other stuff

[wind spade]

Starter factories are very much permanent imo

[thorny root]

I guess this depends on play style. For me, that is not the case. I've re-built my starter factory twice, and plan to demolish it entirely at some point.

[pallid knoll]

Maybe the name is wrong, because i'm not at the start of the game anymore 😄

[thorny root]

well you're going to need more concrete than anything when building. I'd suggest a minimum of 480 items per minute concrete.

[wind spade]

I wouldn't dismantle anything unless I had a very good reason for it. Even a bad factory is better than no factory

[thorny root]

the resources are part of a bigger, more organized plan. that's all. Otherwise I'd leave it.

[wind spade]

Then I'd just reroute the resource I guess. But my planning always works with available resources only, unless I hit a roadblock

[thorny root]

That's what I'm saying, is that the plan was always to use 100% of the resources. The starter factory basically only builds building materials. It'll be one of the last things to go, but it's on the chopping block before the end.

It's not as though the need is going away, I just have plans to make the production a part of a larger and more complicated thing, and to integrate it in a cleaner than originally built manner.

[unique cypress]

awful.

[thorny root]

I kinda realized I wasn't ready to take the lid off because the reason I built the lid in the first place was to give myself overhead alignments for the conveyor lines which I didn't actually build yet...

Whoops.

[runic kraken]

it runs perfectly :)

[umbral cedar]

mega factory logistics when you got no idea

[plucky tusk]

It looks like you didnt know what you were doin and just did 5 of everything lol

[charred gulch]

I'm a little confused on the best way to transport water, given the maximum flow rate of mk.1 pipes.

I need to make 24 water extractors and transport them with mk.1 pipes. Does that mean I'll need to have 12 pipes to transport everything at 240 m^3 /min or is there a more efficient way to combine the pipes and use less?

[naive shore]

The best way is to package it, but of course I wouldnt know if you have that yet. Mk.1 pipes have a maximum flow rate of 300m3 of fluid per minute, so yes, using those pipes, 2 extractors to one pipe is the best unless you underclock a third one to extract 60m3 but I suspect you dont want to do that.

[normal latch]

is there a way to get rid of foundations that accidentlly zooped into the environment in ways that you cant normally target them with the removal tool?

[charred gulch]

I do have packaging available but not a steady source of plastic yet, so until I find an alternate recipe for empty canisters, I am trying to stay away from them, but I could definitely go for a hard drive run if that turns out to be the best way to handle it.

[normal latch]

hard drive runs are fun, do it

[unique cypress]

The best way to do that is to not do that. Put whatever uses that water near the water, and transport the water the absolute minimum distance

[brisk smelt]

it's like baking

almost never bring the wet to the dry...

[crimson moat]

My belts are starting to break

(visually, i mean)

started happening at 500km of mk.6

[vapid gorge]

I'm glad 🙂

[vapid gorge]

what are you doing with these 24 extractors?

[quaint condor]

OK, I am most likely overthinking this ... but this should work right? Container 1 is input, machines on the left are doing slugs, machines on right doing protein, top constructor is dna... slug and protein machines fed from smart splitters splitting between the machines the relevant parts, center set to overflow, smart splitter near container 2 splits shards to container, dna to constructor, overflow to right... then dna merged in, lastley, a progammable splitter set like shown... With the idea I can throw anything/everything into container 1, shards end up in container 2, and anything not being defined to go to the sink, goes to the container, and lastly, it keeps the slugs/remains/protein cycling in case the machine gets full?

[dusky bronze]

(please ignore)

[quaint condor]

It's because the numbers of the "waste" and what's needed don't jive. Use a priority splitter on the output of the DMR and send one side to a container.

[knotty hornet]

Looks like it should work

[quaint condor]

Thanks 🙂

[knotty hornet]

I like using buffer containers so it can sort things out, clear the belts, and let the machines start working

[quaint condor]

Thinking about it... But with where I am trying to do this at, space is a bit of a prime .. (as always 🤣 )

[knotty hornet]

Of course, that's always a consideration 😭

[quaint condor]

Trying to do all that, and a bit more, in a mk3 bpd.

[knotty hornet]

Maybe you can stack the containers below the Constructors and lift items into them

[knotty hornet]

I'll see what I can figure out for the same thing?

[crimson moat]

#satisfactory message

@cinder silo

This started right about when i hit 500km of mk.6 belts

it persists through restart, and without upscale/framegen

These belts are all full without interruption

[quaint condor]

I swear.... this this thing is getting bigger every time I turn around! 🤣 . But, this is where I'm at so far...

[crimson moat]

It looks like the positions of the things on the belt aren't being rendered properly, which visually makes it appear like there are overlaps and gaps. The gaps are the most noticable with a glowy belt underneath, but on freezeframe it seems like the missing items just teleported to overlap with some other item for a frame.

[knotty hornet]

That's hawt

I'm actually getting wet right now

Question though, will it not let you build the whole blueprint if you already have a HUB elsewhere?

[quaint condor]

So, I haven't tried it yet with the hub already built. And, I do not take credit for the "mashup" on the top (everything immedietly around the hub). I couldn't figure out how to get the Hub into the BPD (without some "modifications"), And I liked their arrangement, so I just incorporated it.

But, I don't usually have the hub down anyways. And this is just meant to drop in the area I am building. Then will dismantle when moving on 🤣

[dusky bronze]

now what do negative numbers on modeler mean?

is it just that im missing that much or something else

[normal latch]

^

[quaint condor]

SCIM

[quaint condor]

Ss?

[dusky bronze]

if i get rid of that outpost

[vapid gorge]

I have no clue why people use modeler. Continuously baffled

[quaint condor]

If I had to guess, it's due to trying to recycle the DMR

[dusky bronze]

more user friendly than tools

or at least i find it easier to use/work with

[quaint condor]

In order to 'recycle' something, you need to also have an input

[vapid gorge]

absolutely not xD
you can output a whole plan with 2 clicks with tools

people use modeler as a calculator and it is terrible at that

[dusky bronze]

yeah but if you want to change something in the middle of the chain you cant really do that

[quaint condor]

So, it can make up the difference when production calls for more down the line

[vapid gorge]

change a recipe?

modeler is a layout tool, at best

[dusky bronze]

if you want a factory you can get it done in tools in like 3 clicks

[vapid gorge]

and a very slow and awkward one at that

[dusky bronze]

but with modeler when you're planning the factory you understand it a lot more i guess, and on top of that you can plan out an entire save

[quaint condor]

I wouldn't listen to them. They just like to make thier way "better" for some reason. It does quite well at calculating, when setup correctly.

[dusky bronze]

yes

[vapid gorge]

you can plan out a whole save in tools. There's many tabs

[vapid gorge]

Coming from the verbal abuse poster child? that's rich

[quaint condor]

Aaaaany who, @dusky bronze , something like this:

[vapid gorge]

yeah again, only occasinally unflip msgs. Not going to again. Pointless to listen to anythign you sayas you never show even a drop of self reflection

[quaint condor]

bla bla mate. Move along. Trying to have a conversation and you're coming in, as usual, telling everyone how wrong they are.

[agile junco]

Tools is better at coming up with the numbers for you based on a final desired output. Modeler is better at letting you experiment with various things and see how changing things works because it updates in a way that easier to track. Modeler is also good for keeping your plans organized and working on them in parts.

If you could only use one, tools is probably best to get the best results. But modeler has really been helping me.

[normal latch]

is tools the one greeny made?

or is that calculator o.0

[quaint condor]

Additionally, tools always bases things off of world wide resources. And annoying to try to 'tailor' it for a specific amount of input imo. But, I have always said, don't know the recipes and want to know the most 'efficient', based off of world resources, tools. Everything else, modeler imo. Regardless, to just jump in and bash something just because someone has a different opinion is pretty childish imo. Also more so coming from someone who openly admits they haven't/don't play. 🤷‍♂️

[dusky dust]

Tools is greeny, calc is Anthor

[dusky dust]

Not trying to convince you to change your workflow, but adjusting to a specific amount of input in sftools is literally just changing the numbers in the Input tab

[agile junco]

Tools graph viz just isn't nearly as good as modeler. And it's also way easier to build quick ideas constructively in modeler.

Like, I feel like I'm actually learning the recipes when I have to choose them myself, instead of having tools do all the thinking for me.

So I use both and check my work.

[quaint condor]

I'm aware of how. I just find it much easier/infinitely more manageable with Modeler personally. With outposts, bluprints (with sacking) and with auto rounding when wanting to overclock, it got even better imo.

[agile junco]

And then have KYO tell me I'm still missing something 😛

Outposts literally make planning builds so much better.

[dusky dust]

I personally still just prefer to model in the game itself. :D. Then I don't have to do it twice. :)

Can do outposts/subfactories quite trivially in sftools too, fwiw. (Again, not actually trying to change anyone's workflow. Just saying. :)

[agile junco]

The game doesn't tell you how many of each building to make. Somewhere you have to do the arithmetic.

[agile junco]

No you really cant

They aren't linked to each other.

[dusky dust]

Right, which is why I use solvers like sftools (actually I tend to use my own bespoke solver, bit I use sftools sometimes too)

[dusky dust]

Sure, you have to know that the one tab is exporting to the other. I'll grant you that. :)

[agile junco]

Like these are 4 different tabs in tools, which in modeler can all be connected to each other so if I update one, they all reflect the change.

Tools for me is basically a recipe chooser

[dusky dust]

I'm just saying that sftools can easily do subfactories in tabs; I've done it many times

[agile junco]

And even then, I'm learning a lot of the time I need to be more specific and disable a lot of its choices.

[dusky dust]

If you prefer to have the graph lines connecting 'em, I understand. :)

[agile junco]

Yes, or else I realize later I forgot something important and my whole build needs to be redone.

[dusky dust]

Anyway, as I say, not trying to change anyone's workflow. The two tools have very different use cases

[agile junco]

That's my point. Use both!

[dusky dust]

A solver/calculator is not a modeller/planner, and vice versa

I just still think that the best modeller/planner is the game itself. :)

[agile junco]

Though for simple things if you know the recipes, modeler is a perfectly fine calculator.

[quaint condor]

And this, my friends, is what a "civil" debate looks like when others have personal opinions 🤣

[agile junco]

I disagree with that. Since it does nothing to help you keep track of the math apart from letting you do math with N.

[agile junco]

That other guy has me blocked for some reason I cannot possibly imagine why. I've decided I basically try to ignore him.

It's probably just as well, since I'd end up getting into a dumb argument with them.

[dusky dust]

My solver keeps track of the math for me. :D I just build one chunk at a time

Anyway, dishes time for me. Ciao!

[agile junco]

Oh you have your own solver!? That's pretty cool. What's it made with?

[agile junco]

Oh ttyl.

[quaint condor]

Same. Only reason I don't is to say something when they are just being negative for no seeming reason. 🤷‍♂️ The one thing I "try" to live by in communities like this, you don't exactly have to "like" the other person, but can hopefully work "with" them in the help of others.. 🤷‍♂️

[dusky dust]

Python + graphviz for the output

[agile junco]

Gotta love me some Dot files.

[dusky dust]

#math-and-meta message <- one of the outputs, for example

It's a shit solver compared to greeny's but it mostly works great for me since it was coded to how I tend to approach things. :P

Its main downfall is that if you're looping anything back you've gotta know it ahead of time

[agile junco]

I've thought about making my own solver too, since I want more options than just purely resource minimization.

[dusky dust]

Anyway, yeah, dishes. :)

[agile junco]

Was thinking perhaps this would be a fun excuse to learn Z3... but I don't have as much time for a little while I don't think.

[normal latch]

what are outposts

are they just lil mini factories that make a single good?

good as in item, like a heavy modular frame outpost as an example

[crimson moat]

It's basically just a new expandable "tab" which gets simplified to inputs and outputs on the main page

so you can do like 10hmf/min comes from [over there] and it's just a little box, rather than a whole THING

[normal latch]

oh cool

good way to modularize and compartmentalize

and then just connect that node rather than having a zillion nodes from a zillion processes

in other words, giggity

do we all have weird senses of humor here btw or am i just silly?

[dusky dust]

Yeah, my late-game "factories" are often geographically spread out all over the place

Make RCUs over here, FMFs over here (probably with that whole production line in a couple locations), eventually cart 'em together where they'll end up being combined, etc

(And not, like, in a centralized production way)

I'll often even effectively do that when stuff happens to be essentially on the same site, too)

[lone jewel]

sure but the "whole plan" is not very useful imo, it's more an "overview" than a plan

whereas modeler lets you build the entire plan, in a way that actually makes sense to build

and the latest update has greatly improved the usability

[knotty hornet]

I said it once and I'll say it again

📝 for the win

[lone jewel]

with modeler I don't need any external spreadsheet or notes

[knotty hornet]

With pencil and paper, I don't need a modeler.

[brisk urchin]

same

[frosty owl]

Tsk, tree-haters!

[pine finch]

I keep getting the signal loops in on itself error, im not sure what im doing wrong

[lilac cedar]

This should fix the incoming path signals, but for the outgoing blocksignals you would need to make the Rail longer and place another signal, cause the rail block is unfinished

[visual ocean]

It could be because your track is unfisnished as well. If you remove that signal and it still doesnt work try adding blocks on after that part of rail that is not done

if the block doesnt work, everything is going to fail

Is this a good loop for waste?

[unique cypress]

For sinking Plutonium? Not really. Using default pellets, cells and rods, it'll be cheaper

[visual ocean]

I should mention Im using this because i have cubes for days ready to be droned

I know the pain of getting them running

[unique cypress]

But if you're doing something else with the Plutonium, idk, it might be decent

[unique cypress]

Keep them for tier 9 lol

[visual ocean]

It's going to be the first nuclear plant i do. I will probably refine it further but not yet

I'm at tier 9 xD

[unique cypress]

Singularity cells eat pasta

[visual ocean]

Oh, you mean the cubes. Okay got it

[unique cypress]

I mean it's up to you tbh. I wouldn't make PCCs to make Pu Fuel Unit and sink it. That's a waste of time, effort, and resources. But if you already have them and you think you won't end up regretting spending them on Plutonium, then it makes sense to use them

But default Plutonium cells take concrete instead of aluminium so that's a no-brainer imo

[visual ocean]

WYm, the heat sinks take aluminium

That is kinda crazy haha

I think I'll automate the first section and eventually i think about plutonium stuff

[unique cypress]

I was talking about plutonium cells, not rods

But if you're making Ficsonium, it might make sense to make more Plutonium, rather than less

[visual ocean]

I already see the dimension of this project.. I'm going to get it all done for the first phase of nuclear so that i have power to undertake the rest

Because apparently this is what i need to make the whole thing work

[lone igloo]

Turbofuel any good in drones?

[wind spade]

the more energy a fuel has, the more it lasts for everything (power gen, vehicles, etc.)

however in drones, sometimes more energy-dense fuels also give more speed. Wiki has info on that

[visual ocean]

It's not bad at all. You can easily get it and power quite a lot of drones

But yeah if speed is something you need, than probably look for better

[lone igloo]

rocket fuel probably the best for me.

I just need some low /min items to be delivered into my facility

[reef grove]

first nuclear plant if im making 2 uranium rods per manufacturer and the plants use 0.5 per minute can i just run 1 splitter into 2 from the manufacurer and itll even itself out eventually?

[wind spade]

yes

[reef grove]

ty

[visual ocean]

Holy spaghetti

[reef grove]

it works

and thats all that matters

aesthetics is a 2nd playthrough activity

[visual ocean]

I feel like it helps get the build organized laying it all without spaggethi

[reef grove]

i figure out exactly what input i need to get the output i need then just go from there it looks like spaghetti but its organised in an adhd way

[visual ocean]

i see you are not usinga single manifold tho, what's up with that?

[reef grove]

whats a manifold

[reef grove]

oh

yknow ive made that on a few of my builds no idea why i didnt do it on this one

[visual ocean]

it's easier to set up and no need to do crazy math on splitting

[reef grove]

i need to setup 11 more nuclear reactors

[visual ocean]

how much uranium you got there?

[mossy ibex]

you know what would be quite useful, is a tool that has detailed z height information for the whole map and you can lay out train lines like it's a vector program but it won't let you draw a line from one place to another if the terrain is too steep. You have modes for max steepness, 2m ramp, and 1m ramp if you want to clamp it more

[vapid gorge]

It sounds like you'd need a 3d navigation to do this as you'd need ramps going up

[thick plank]

Or just build an elevated railline

[vapid gorge]

sky infrastructure can suck it 😛

[mossy ibex]

I'm just imagining it being an overhead view that's aware of the elevation

[mossy ibex]

I am glad people do what they want, but I'm a nature/landscape bro

[vapid gorge]

I think it'd be a bit of a redundant tool tbh.

probably the best way to keep rail tidy is to build a leading line of zooped foundations the whole way.

that way you can plan the path, find any issues you might dislike, alter things for looks and keep the pylons tidy when you print them on the path

the game becomes the best path finder for that

[mossy ibex]

I mean, that's what I do

but I "play" the game a lot away from my gaming pc, planning things, using image editors and maps etc

and as I'm sitting here on my computer mostly working, I wish I could plan my rail line, but I know that the place I want to bring it is tricky and in reality I can't without being in the game

[vapid gorge]

sure but you'd end up needing to do it in game anyway to get a real feel for it

[mossy ibex]

I'm ok with that. That's how ~every plan works

[vapid gorge]

that just sounds like double the work then. Redoing it once you're inside. Play the game while not in the game doing something constructive you can't do in. Like jotting down where belts will go between processes

[mossy ibex]

I disagree strenuously, lol

I can't really tell what the disagreement is exactly, but I tyhink I value getting the gist of something together even though a lot will have to change when the plan meets reality

[vapid gorge]

I mean realistically. Even if the tool could be as speicific to detail out this

I'd still need to go into the grame and do the layout anyway later.

[mossy ibex]

it mirrors my real work and seems fine

[pallid knoll]

Lucky I knew what I was doing and 5 each gives the perfect amount of everything to get moving lol. I just wanted feedback and eventually maybe some tips to do better. Thanks for your usefull comment tho!

[lone jewel]

that's not really an argument though, I don't need a pencil and paper to use modeler

[knotty hornet]

Exactly

[lone jewel]

my point was that when using satisfactory tools, you absolutely also need some other form of notes to do any sort of larger project, as while it's awesome at spitting out a solution in seconds, it's not really all that useful by itself

vs modeler which basically allows me to put the entire plan in it, without any external notes

i'm not knocking on satisfactory tools in any way, it's great at what it does

[unique cypress]

No you don't lmao. I built 2 max size nuke plants only with SFTools (as well as literally everything else I built between U3 and 1.0)

The only reason I'm using modeler now is because it has better custom recipe support and I'm playing modded

[lone jewel]

if you're going to use overclocks, or change the number of machines, both of which i find absolutely critical when building any factory, satisfactory tools calculator is not that useful

[unique cypress]

All of my machines are either at 100 or 250% and dividing by 2.5 isn't so difficult that I'd use another tool for it

[lone jewel]

i do much more customization of clock speeds

[knotty hornet]

I'm knocking on both

Like I said

📝 ftw

[lone jewel]

here's an example of something that honestly doesn't make a real lot of sense in ST Calculator:

it quickly shows that it's possible to make 900 plastic from 300 crude using recycled plastic/rubber, but how do you actually build it?

i modeled out the same thing in Modeler, and while it looks more complicated, it's laid out exactly as I actually built it in game:

[wind spade]

how do you build it
prio splitters 🙂

[unique cypress]

3 rows of refineries, HOR and DF off to the side, 2 smart splitters and 1 prio merger

[lone jewel]

this was before prio mergers even existed

[unique cypress]

If I recreated this in Modeler, all that would change from the tools plan is that I'd put prio splitters/mergers at some connections

[lone jewel]

what i did instead was break out the "bootstrap recycling" part of the loop into it's own machines

[unique cypress]

Regular merger also works because the residual rubber is less than recycled

I just use prio because it exists and it's technically more suitable

[wind spade]

residual rubber goes to separate set of refineries

[lone jewel]

as you can see in my modeler screenshot, only 33 1/3 plastic / 66 2/3 rubber actually needs to be recycled back

[unique cypress]

If you overcomplicate things then ofc you need an overcomplicated plan 🤷‍♂️

[lone jewel]

i would argue my plan is simpler and a lot less failure prone

[unique cypress]

Simpler than this? #math-and-meta message

And less failure prone when this setup can't even fail?

[lone jewel]

you're building 13 1/3 refineries huh?

that's not even the same setup

[unique cypress]

No, I build 14 and let some idle. It works just as well

[unique cypress]

And do you think I'd have the exact same setup as yours in a post from 2 weeks ago?

Besides, all that'd change is the refinery count and the output

I'd build it exactly the same

[lone jewel]

i guess that's the difference, i wouldn't build it that way

[unique cypress]

I have one for 270 oil #math-and-meta message

All of my recycling setups are built the exact same way, as long as the total amount of produced plastic and rubber is less than 1 belt

If it's more than 1 belt, I split it into multiple setups that are all under 1 belt of each

Thanks to how the priorities are set up, it can produce the plastic/rubber in any ratio, as long as it's not higher than the max capacity of the setup
So I don't have to change anything except the refinery counts each time I build it for a different output

[lone jewel]

i like to separate machines in the production line so that they work independently as it makes things easier to debug when something is not working right

[knotty hornet]

Big block of messages missing?

Between DoctorMonocular and greeny

[lone jewel]

that's definitely a nice advantage of that method for sure, but I don't really build these in variable amounts, I have the entire factory line (besides some logistics) blueprinted in 6x6 modules, 300 oil in, 900 plastic or rubber out, built side by side to make a larger factory

[lone igloo]

Quick question, If i'm using only 300m3/min of crude per line is it just better to run mk1 instead mk2?

[knotty hornet]

Apparently problems happen near max flowrate

[lone jewel]

i would personally use mk2, because 300/min is the absolute max of a mk1 pipe

[knotty hornet]

So i say run a Mk 2

[lone igloo]

Okay, I was thinking of putting them together but 9 pipes running up a building looks better than 4 so ahah

[lone jewel]

means if you have any flow issue, you won't be able to maintain 300/min

where fluids are concerned, leaving some headroom in the pipes where you can is usually a good idea

obviously there are some cases where you won't have headroom, like a fully overclocked mk3 extractor on a pure node

[lone igloo]

thing is, I've aware of max flowrate issues but actually never encountered them myself. I got max 600m3/min x2 crude for my 40GW powerplant and never had issue apart from when loading the save file liquids disapear but it only takes like 10 mins for it to come back online fully but never flowrate issues.

[lone jewel]

consider yourself lucky lol

[dusky dust]

Yeah, some folks are lucky enough to have a natural build style which happens to work just fine

I've got a big ol' pastedump of advice but sometimes you hardly need any of it. :D

[lone jewel]

you can definetely build things that work at max flowrate without any special considerations and just have it work

[knotty hornet]

I rarely have ever experienced flow issues that aren't the direct result of insufficient supply.

[lone jewel]

but it often is quite difficult to pull off reliably

[lone igloo]

I've leant early on my Satisfactory journey that placing junctions 1st is a must and replacing pipes after adding a pump. But with new autoconnect I also learnt that it actually makes pipes bigger on connecting points...

[knotty hornet]

Make all junctions feeding machines vertical and feed them from the bottom pipe

99% of problems solved

[lone igloo]

wait what? Can you send a picture 🙂

[knotty hornet]

No, I'm not home

[lone jewel]

yeah i need a screenshot for that lol

[knotty hornet]

I'll try to find one.

[lone jewel]

not really understanding what you mean by "feed them from the bottom pipe"

[lone igloo]

Yeah exactly

[knotty hornet]

The junction is vertically oriented, so one end of the plus is at the bottom

You take the pipe from that one and put it in the machine

[lone igloo]

okay it now makes sense. Junction is higher than input for the machine.

[lone jewel]

so all the pipes connect to the manifold from the bottom is what you're saying?

inputs and outputs?

[lone igloo]

outputs propably as normal

[knotty hornet]

Basically, the manifold line is elevated and the junctions let fluid flow down into machines.

[lone igloo]

inputs from the top

[knotty hornet]

Plus, gives you space for belts, splitters, etc, without needing to make everything clip.

[lone igloo]

I usually do this for most my builds and works awesome. But will have to try the from the top manifold

[knotty hornet]

That's nice, but if you switch places for the belt manifold and the pipe manifold, then "gravity" helps your fluids out.

[lone igloo]

yeah that does sound better but atm I got over 100 refineries already placed like that and I dont wanna replace them xD

[knotty hornet]

I have a three refinery blueprint that has the elevated pipes and floor level belts built, and I can remove/upgrade whichever ones i'm gonna use.

here is an example of it on my Fuel Gen Blueprint (very compact, very demure)

@lone igloo @lone jewel

[lone igloo]

Wish you showed me that about 100+ hours ago when I was making my 40GW power plant xD

[knotty hornet]

i'll send the BP if i can

[lone igloo]

its alright I will make one in the next major update

[lone igloo]

atm working on a huge world PL where I want to use majority of resources in the world

[knotty hornet]

oh wow, i didnt think it would let me send it

you might figure out your own system for power lines, but there is a power pole in the blueprint. it's meant to fill space by rotating it 180 and nudging it in everytime you build, and as you do that, the power poles fill in near the one that is not plugged in (i did it like this cuz i don't like criss-crossing cables, but feel free to do it your way)

[lone jewel]

yeah, this part I understood, how do you feed the manifold though?

[knotty hornet]

You just plug it in at one end or the other, or both if you want it to go longer.

It's only about 8 m high, so it can be reached by default headlift out of machines on the same floor.

[lone igloo]

honestly, 99% of the time I ignore normal headlift of 10m and just slap a pump on the pipe. Its just the way I do things and its so easy and nothing to worry about.

[knotty hornet]

Realistically, any open junction slot could feed it

[knotty hornet]

You definitely could do that

I always try to design production so fluids flow down to the next place they're gonna be used.

[lone igloo]

Power is not an issue for me, and if I need more in 1.0 there is so many power options aka Rocket Fuel its insane.

[dusky dust]

(Even if power was an issue for you, the paltry amount required by a pump is unlikley to make much of a dent. They're practically free)

[lone igloo]

Making small temporary rocket fuel power plant if needed before setting up full nuclear is easy and atm I still got way over 25GW+ of power to play with and alot more as I got temporary facilities running atm.

[lone igloo]

I really HOPE in next patch they will come out and say "we're x2 range of hover pack, enjoy" HONESTLY

[wind spade]

ah yeah, make the OP thing even more OP

[lone igloo]

its not OP at all

[wind spade]

fly mode within factories? very much OP 🙂

[lone igloo]

How so? As there isn't any players around or even if there was its not PvP and it only would improve QoL of making builds easier.

[wind spade]

thing can be OP in a singleplayer sandbox as well 🤷

[unique cypress]

They already buffed the range in 1.0

[dusky dust]

Eh, I don't consider Hoverpack OP; you get it pretty "late" at a stage where you're starting to build some pretty big factories. Its range limitation keeps it balanced enough, IMO

~~Plus you get the production-stutter effect whenever it crosses power grids! ~~

You've probably already been jetpacking around to build factories by that point anyway; it's just a bit more QOL by that point

[wind spade]

well but jetpack needs dedicated fuel and is limited by time and such 🤷

[lone igloo]

greeny you have a very much PvP time balance to it. If it was PvP or enemy defence like factorio then yes it would be way to OP but its sandbox factory game where you're building massive factories 99% of the playtime.

[dusky dust]

Actually I sort of take back what I said about "a bit more QOL at that point" really. Jetpacking around your factories for most players isn't really active building; it's just getting yourself to a different vantage point

Hoverpack is (for most) a pretty big QOL jump, not a bit more

(I know some folks like building with Just Jetpack; it's too "bouncy" for my tastes though)

The two have pretty separate niches, IMO -- Jetpack for exploration (or other out-of-factory activities), Hoverpack for building

Or, I suppose: the "difficulty" of building factories without the hoverpack isn't something I am at all sad to see go, once I do unlock the hoverpack. :)

[wind spade]

if there was a building you could build that would produce 50/min of any chosen item for free, would you also not consider it OP because it's just a QOL?

[knotty hornet]

The only sense in which a hoverpack is OP is that it uses too much power

It is literally over powered

[lone igloo]

That is drastic difference in conversation here. Hoverpack doesn't offer items just QoL for building, where what you're trying to compare is items for "free". Those 2 have no relationship together in this conversation at all.

[wind spade]

I'm not trying to compare. I'm trying to argue that "OP" can indeed be a thing in singleplayer sandbox games

[knotty hornet]

A building that gives you free stuff is a cheat and doesn't belong on the OP/UP scale.

[lone igloo]

Something that provides items for free would break purpose of a factory game. Where something that allows building bigger and nicer factories would player to make more factories that make those items.

[wind spade]

same argument then, but the building uses power 🤷

or a recipe that converts one iron ore into five heavy modular frames

[knotty hornet]

Still a cheat

[wind spade]

or any other example similar to that

where's the line between cheat and OP?

[knotty hornet]

Doesn't belong on the scale

[wind spade]

(also "cheat" is usually "changing game rules", which I'm not doing here)

[knotty hornet]

You are

[wind spade]

how is "just another recipe" a cheat, if it's in a game (assuming hypothetical scenario)

[lone igloo]

Everyone could agree a building that gives you any item for free no matter how expensive it is just cheating as it defeats whole purpose of making said item factories and spam those buildings.

[wind spade]

by that definition, heavy encased frame is a cheat recipe

[lone igloo]

Where something that allows building those said items facotories easier just QoL on bigger scale.

[knotty hornet]

Is it "just another recipe" if it's creating stuff for free?

[knotty hornet]

No, it is a trade off

[wind spade]

I said iron ore to modular frame

[wind spade]

^

[lone igloo]

If I wasn't making huge scale factories I would not say I want Hoverpack x2 range its because spamming power poles everywhere seems pointless if the range was doubled less spam and clean up.

[knotty hornet]

Still a cheat

[wind spade]

again, where's the line

[lone igloo]

Free items is the line usually.

[wind spade]

so one iron ore to five HMF is fine then

[knotty hornet]

No

[wind spade]

it's not free

[knotty hornet]

And if you can't tell where that line is, maybe you shouldn't even speak on it

[wind spade]

how many iron ore does it need to cost to not be a cheat?

[knotty hornet]

That's obviously over the line

[lone igloo]

We went from hoverpack range to free items or changing recipies... like O_O

[knotty hornet]

How many grains of sand until it's "not a heap"? That's what you sound like right now.

[wind spade]

I'm just showing you that you can very much have something in SP game and have it be "OP".

[unique cypress]

exactly why I installed a mod to give it double range (and speed and all other stats)

dealing with the vanilla hoverpack was so annoying I didn't even use it. now it's actually good.

maybe even too good, because with these stats I can use it to move between factories too

[knotty hornet]

And I'm stating hoverpacks are not that

[wind spade]

and I'm stating that imo they are 🤷

it's just comparing two opinions

[knotty hornet]

They are definitely more powerful than jetpacks

But more powerful than ≠ OP

[lone igloo]

Well, just to point out majority of the time I do think there needs to be better way of transportation across the map earlier. I genuenly hate having to spam cannons to go from factory to factory and by the time you get portals its GG, you're bacially finished with the game. Balance of travel in the game is off the charts atm.

[wind spade]

they have different role than jetpacks. But compared to how much jetpack gives you vs no jetpack, hoverpack gives you (imo) WAY WAY more than vs no hoverpack

[knotty hornet]

Does it though?

[wind spade]

infintely long fly mode with almost no restriction, yeah

[knotty hornet]

Cuz it's practically useless when you're not near factory space

[wind spade]

and its features are useless when not near factory space either, so it's only useful in the places where you'd actually want to use that feature

[knotty hornet]

Well, no, i'd love to have one usable while fighting aliens, but they are away from factory space.

[wind spade]

that's jetpack's territory

[knotty hornet]

So hoverpacks are NOT OP

They are better within a given domain than the other options.

[lone igloo]

see funny thing is Greeny, if I would be playing Satisfactory to fight enemies Honestly wtf am I doing. I play this game due to its building and core gameplay is amazing.

if I wanna fight enemeis go play factorio where there is polution

[wind spade]

and my point is that compared to how other things improve stuff in their domain, hoverpacks do much more

[lone igloo]

Most time I play in peaceful mode anyways as I see no benefit to enemies but a thing to annoy me. I turn on peaceful mode once I reach phase 4 and then killing enemies becomes a joke anyways.

[knotty hornet]

I don't know, something makes getting DNA more fun when the aliens actually fight back and go after you, so I don't do that.

[lone igloo]

When I'm building peaceful mode all the way honestly. If exploring sure, that makes exploring more fun I agree.

[knotty hornet]

I think the whole point is, Hoverpack is an end-game mobility item, and part of its cost is the long wait to get it, therefore, its power is balanced in my mind.

[unique cypress]

I played the game so many times that fighting enemies is no longer fun or interesting. it's just annoying

[lone igloo]

Thats where my thought of hoverpack x2 even x3 range as building just annoying. My biggest fear with mods is. If new patch comes out I cannot play until mods updated...

[unique cypress]

well, the good news is that 1.2 isn't coming for a while probably

[dusky dust]

Hoverpack in Satisfactory is like unlocking the double-jump on a Metroidvania.

Is that overpowered compared to not having the double-jump? Maybe, but both are a welcome unlock. :P

[unique cypress]

also, the hoverpack mod can be removed without consequences

[lone igloo]

would you mind linking the mod for me, would absolutley love to install it 🙂

[dusky dust]

(I admit that analogy doesn't hold up to intense scrutiny since in a Metroidvania you likely cannot complete the game without that double-jump, but still)

[lone igloo]

Have you tried finishing Satisfactroy without hoverpack?

[dusky dust]

IMO Hoverpack is just CSS's way of showing that they don't really intend the mechanics of factory-building to be an impediment in the late game

[unique cypress]

https://ficsit.app/mod/NoHoverPackDrift

[dusky dust]

Not since my Update 3 run. :)

[lone igloo]

Appreciate it man, will get that into my world ASAP. I just want to build and not worry about GOD damm range and spam of power poles...

[dusky dust]

(just build power infrastructure into your foundation blueprints. )

[lone igloo]

Yes but there is no autoconnect for power is there

[dusky dust]

Indeed! Still removes nearly all the work required to hook up a hoverpack-support grid, though.

(And honestly once you're sufficiently experienced with the game you can just AGS > Fly Mode if you want unlimited flight. Not that experience really has anything to do with it, of course. :)

[lone igloo]

that feels a little cheaty ngl

[dusky dust]

No less cheaty than installing a mod which does effectively the same thing, IMO

Though I get it: cheating's in the eye of the beholder

(Though I'd argue it's technically more cheaty, since AGS is right there in the game menus, whereas mods require haxing the game. :)

[woeful zenith]

The hoverpack is slower when going in a straight line vs jetpack + slide jump in a straight line. Which makes sense because that's it's role

Hoverpack: build in place/overhead view/staying within factory
Jetpack: Distance/height/adventuring

But I only use hoverpack when building in blueprints tbh

Or maybe a structure that I need to view or edit from a specific angle

[gray peak]

how come my mk1 miner cant provide enough coal for 4 powerplant which each need 15 coal a min? of which my miner is producing 60 a min

and if i have 3 running it keep the coal income at about neutral

or do spliiter dont split equaly or something?

[visual ocean]

They split equally between the number of splits you doing. So could be 50/50 or 1/3 each or 100%

Can you send picture of the setup?

[dusky dust]

(For posting pictures, it is best by far to open a #1038092680493801533 thread, btw)

[gray peak]

eh dont think i can put that in a screen with everything vissibly

[dusky dust]

(That's honestly the best place for most "help!" type questions anyway, but especially when screenshots are called for)

[gray peak]

but i try lol

[dusky dust]

Can slap down some foundations to get some height, if nothing else. :)

[visual ocean]

Are you using manifold or load balancing?

[gray peak]

ye problem is rather the cleanliness of the build

[gray peak]

yes

[visual ocean]

Which one??

[gray peak]

heard both words before

[gray peak]

ye screen shot incoming in question channel

[wind spade]

balancing pipes 🤢

[jaunty lodge]

how do i know that this is working. my target production rate is 72.7272727273 and i typed that there should i just trust the system? if it is minimally wrong there will be problems right cause machines take time to turn on i think and if it produces less then energy will spike

[wind spade]

realistically you're making 72.72726/min of packaged fuel

[lone jewel]

lol, ok, but the manifold is made all neat and tidy while no effort whatsoever was put in on the load balancer side

[jaunty lodge]

should i make it faster than i need it to be then?

[lone jewel]

load balacing the liquid part is also kinda pointless, fluids don't split evenly, so regardless of how you build it, it acts more like a manifold

[magic island]

that type of pipe layout isn't actually about balancing the liquid flow rate itself; it's mostly about distributing the consumption so that machine "sips" of liquid are directly replaced and have minimal interference along the line

[unique cypress]

I would just build 2 refineries at 100% and let them idle as needed

You very rarely actually need to change clock speed

[wind spade]

but if you want to not idle machines, just clock it according to what you need, rounding up when needed

[jaunty lodge]

i wanted to save a bit of space im using 44 refineries here. about idling i just noticed thats not actually an issue because it will only idle once the internal storage is full which means i will always have what i need anyways right

[brisk smelt]

if u wanna save space clock everything to the max

[knotty hornet]

If you wanna save power, build thousands of machines at 0.1%

(I know power is quantized and you will run into a point where you don't actually save anything, don't at me)

[dusky dust]

Minimum clock is 1%; you still do save power at that point. :)

The thing that always amuses me about the hypothetical "clock everything to 1%" thing is realizing how much warm-up time you'd need

Like over three hours just to get a single Crystal Oscillator out of the array

[thorny root]

Out of time XD

[thorny root]

Almost done though. This is all that remains. about 1/8th of the circle.

[uncut salmon]

Linear algebra in satisfactory when?

[brisk smelt]

what do we need linear algebra for 🙏

[knotty hornet]

Solving systems of equations? That's like 90% of the 10% of math in this game that isn't regular proportions

...so i guess 9% of the game

[brisk smelt]

linear algebra is vectors and matrices etc

[brisk smelt]

thats just algebra, not linear

[gloomy gyro]

Parabolia

[knotty hornet]

Are you suggesting that linear systems of equations that you learned in early algebra don't count as linear algebra?

Cuz they definitely do, you can even write a two variable system in vector-matrix form.

[red tangle]

Hi

[lone igloo]

is there anyway to make somersloops activate on the 1st recipe without ahving to run the machine once?

[unique cypress]

I heard that swapping the recipe to a different one and then back will make the sloops work on the first cycle, but I haven't verified it myself

If it doesn't, you can just run it once on some cheap recipe and then switch to the one you want

[lone igloo]

There is no cheap one for pasta, I'm so done with MK2 Designer rushing for MK3 rn

I need few bps that would be perfetly fit in MK3 not MK2

and I cba to make it work in MK2

[unique cypress]

Ironically, there's a few cheap recipes for the accelerator but they're all T9

I just ran 501 cycles making 1001 pasta

[lone igloo]

yup, it is waht it is

Just made x1 pasta and wahtever

[unique cypress]

Or you can try the recipe switch method

Idk why it'd work but maybe it does

[lone igloo]

all I care about is MK3 BP not the mk6 belts the mk3 designer

straight up ticket force power to mk3 designer

in my head it still doesn't make sence to me why mk3 and portals are locked straight in endgame such as Tier 9. Wish portals were avaiable a tier sooner and mk3 designer

mk1 straight up needs to be removed

[unique cypress]

Yeah, I have not used the mk1 at all since they added mk2 and mk3

[lone igloo]

again this is my opion only and this is waht I think. MK1 and Mk2 should not exist and only MK3 if not MK4 for bigger. Why limit creativity behind a time wall.

[wind spade]

because copy-pasting the whole factory wasn't devs' vision

[vapid gorge]

break the bp into 2 smaller bps.

[unique cypress]

And portals are fun but ultimately kinda useless. Unless you consider hypertube cannons to be cheating

[vapid gorge]

Honestly there was more bitching about BPs after they actually added them in game. At this point I wish they were never a thing

[lone igloo]

portals are obsolete by time you get them setup as you're most likely already have a hyper-tube cannon network which is bascially free and with new junctions you can get super compact one.

[wind spade]

same with pipes lol

[vapid gorge]

cannons are also an exploit. A lot of people don't use exploits

[wind spade]

well game balance doesn't assume cannons, since those are practically a bug

[lone igloo]

its not bitching, its just limiting factor behind a time wall. If they never invisioned copy-paste then why add?

[lone igloo]

engine feature

[wind spade]

if you don't use cannons, portals are great lategame transport option

[wind spade]

hardly a feature if it's based on a bug

[vapid gorge]

you're right, they should add 200x200 bp machines so people can just paste teh same factory over and over.

And should remove BPs entirely from the game

[lone igloo]

yes but at this point its a feature

[wind spade]

still not considered for game balance

[vapid gorge]

cannons are still there because of bitching.

[unique cypress]

The only reason cannons are still a thing is because people got mad when an update fixed them

[lone igloo]

so if they fix it watch the bitching go so hard because travel is so excesive in the game, and the only reasonable travel system of portals avaialable at absolute endgame.

[wind spade]

and unfortunately devs put vocal minority above game balance

[vapid gorge]

creating a good travel network is part of basic design. If you want ot use an exploit or mods to get around it, do it.

[wind spade]

reasonable travel systems are (for example):

• hypertubes
• trains
• explorers

[lone igloo]

please show me a world where someone uses hyper-tube in the intended way with the intended speed.

It would still take more than 10 minutes of doing absolutley nothing to get from 1 place to another that is in a different biome

[unique cypress]

I did soon after they were added

[vapid gorge]

me? and others who don't use exploits.

it's a sand box game, do what you want. But don't pretend it isnt

[wind spade]

here you go, both messages above ^

[wind spade]

good thing you can optimise travels to not be needed often 🙂 and for longer travels you can easily use trains

[vapid gorge]

may as well jsut mod in early teleporters if you want. And that's also fine. It's just very very annoying hearing people wanting to break anything remotely like balance and challenge

[wind spade]

imo hypertubes are great for short-medium distances and inter-factory traveling

[vapid gorge]

hell, at worst I've taken a tube from GF to DD and just gotten a quick drink

but it's not like I have to keep going back and forth between the two points

[wind spade]

yeah, stretch, go to toilet, grab a drink, you're gonna have pauses anyway, so why not take one now. Or take the scenic route and enjoy the game's visuals

[vapid gorge]

if you keep having to travel to the other side of the map over and over you've got some critical core issues about what and how you're doing things

[unique cypress]

Frankly speaking, the dimensional depot made all pioneer transport basically obsolete.

[vapid gorge]

don't make me agree with you 😛

[wind spade]

yeah, you travel like once to a location to build there, maybe once more to debug or fix something you've forgotten, then any other travels are for weird reasons like "I want to look there and take screenshots" or something

[vapid gorge]

or if you've got such a large project a depot can't manage your inventory a sloppy train line with cars behind you full of building materials

Though I think I'm going to delete all my depots once I get back into them. Messed around with it but... meh

[rigid patrol]

i guess just watching my trains go by while enjoying my morning coffee is weird 🙃

[vapid gorge]

nah, that's just having satisfaction

catch a train to your fav perch

[wind spade]

cargo transport is fine, we're talking about personal transport

[vapid gorge]

I can't recall, trains still run on auto if you enter them right? you've got to push something to stop the automatic path?

[rigid patrol]

yep

[vapid gorge]

I generally run hyper tubes under all my rail so it's been a LONG time since I've hitched a ride

[rigid patrol]

thats the only thing i enjoy more than watching them go by; being on them and watching the world go by

[unique cypress]

If you practice independency and keep your hub, elevator and MAM as items in your depot, you can just go from factory location to factory location, build, debug and move on, without ever visiting a location twice

[rigid patrol]

but...what about hypertube networks

[vapid gorge]

I really don't get teh hate of reg hyper tubes. Unless you're going up some fairly steep climbs they're fairly fast. I get across the whole of the rocky desert in like .. .15 seconds?

if that

maybe 10?

[rigid patrol]

I do wish they looked a little better

I actually timed it the other day, 55 seconds to cross grassy fields by flying, 4.5 seconds via HT

[unique cypress]

You can cross the entire map that quickly with boosted tubes

[vapid gorge]

I mean sure. But we're talking about part of the game design involving proper transport networks, not based on exploits

[rigid patrol]

That was with i think i had 5 boosters at the entrance

[rigid patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/satisfactory-factory-cart-cart-ficsit-gif-24911047

[vapid gorge]

hey, if you find those fun, do it 😛

Just don't use the cyberdumpsters

Or build roads that forces the paths to always turn right to eventually get to where you want

[rigid patrol]

i like your style

[vernal coyote]

what do you guys think?

[wind spade]

I think that modeller is not very readable and I'm not even sure what I'm looking at, yet alone why are you planning in modeller instead of ingame

[unique cypress]

you don't need to store screws. they're not used for building or handcrafting anything en masse. keep a stack or 3 and it'll be enough

[vernal coyote]

well i need them for the milestones

[vernal coyote]

its easier to make everything efficent (for me atleast)

[wind spade]

efficiency is just calculating the amounts properly, any solver can do that (and way faster than modeller)

I meant planning as literally placing down splitters and such as you did - I'd do that ingame instead

[unique cypress]

huh I guess you do need 4 stacks for that

but on top of that, you don't need more than 2 stacks

so 3k screws

eh, I guess some early game production for storage isn't a terrible idea
don't need to keep it running for very long tho

[wind spade]

unless you keep losing your scanners/guns

[unique cypress]

the devs need to give us an option to make the equpment in the manufacturer then

[wind spade]

ah yeah, full container of rifles, the american way of playing

[vapid gorge]

we can already cram containers full of nuclear bombs, jeez

[woeful zenith]

I think it's less that people hate regular hypertubes and more that the other hypertube methods are so strong. Also most people don't care as much about doing something the intended way (unfortunately)

[lone igloo]

greeny is most anti QoL person I've seen on this discord, no offence but any half decent idea to you is just OP or not balanced.