math-and-meta

[visual ocean]

but i was asking, because i can potentially do 1500 copper powder

[limpid vapor]

copper is probably the easiest part

[visual ocean]

it's kinda crazy to get a max of 7,5 pasta for 3 full mk3 nodes of copper

It's 240 refineries

[limpid vapor]

thats just one resource to process, its a lot more work to make all the other stuff you will need for that much pasta

[runic kraken]

instead of overclocking generators just build more

i’d save the power shards for smth like miners

[visual ocean]

I've been going all in on trains and drones to make it easy on those processes

I do have some factories going from scratch but not many

[limpid vapor]

those are basically a necessity at that scale

[visual ocean]

I'm not like build the full nuclear pasta all in a place. Neither the radios or the fused cubes

[limpid vapor]

i wouldnt expect so, regardless, go nuts if you are prepared for the work, we are all here to build stuff after all (right?)

i build all the prerequisites at different locations too

[visual ocean]

And i can finally have a use for particle accelerators

I am at 64 out of 115 power. Should i go nuclear before?

[limpid vapor]

couldnt tell you, i havent finished phase 4 yet xd

if you plan of overclocking, i imagine there will be a decent chunk of overhead, but i dont know what you already have set up

[vapid gorge]

you'll be fine, just don't sloop them

or if you do don't oc them at the same time

[runic kraken]

is there a spreadsheet of the best alternate recipes or smth?

or do i just want all of them

[orchid brook]

I GOT IT

300 TRIES

[vapid gorge]

recycled plastic, Nice!

[wind spade]

no, because there's nothing like "best recipe"

every recipe does something different and different people will have different preferences what they do/don't like.

You don't need to get all recipes, but if you like a recipe, just use it 🙂

[vapid gorge]

it'll also depend on location, what other recipes you use with THOSE recipes, what other items you're making.

if anyone tells you, in general, a recipe is 'the best', you might as well just roll a die and choose at random

[agile junco]

There is this post which might be useful to you https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/1fekus9/alternate_recipe_ranking_10_optimizing_for

[last matrix]

this is not a website, it is an exported "summary" (ie a simplified all-in-one-UI overview, intended for reference when actually building) of a factory plan, using the factory planner tool I developed last year

yes, minus that purple text i added later in an image editor, as a note

see above

[unique cypress]

you kinda want like at least half of them, but which half it is exactly depends on your priorities

[wind spade]

very opinionated, wouldn't recommend to follow

[last matrix]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/1fd3jir/i_created_an_application_designed_to_help_plan/

it was not very well-received ("why would I bother using this when the planner website exists"), so I did not really continue development (in particular I never added the planned feature of ability to set recipe overclock or somersloops)

[agile junco]

Yea... I used it less to choose and more to decide what to read about first.

[agile junco]

Tools is also somewhat opinionated. Curious where the differences are in your opinion.

[deft lichen]

pretty much the only opinion in Tools is that it optimizes strictly for resource cost and no other factors, but that doesn't prevent you from making a plan that optimizes for something else

[last matrix]

I think I posted it here when I first released it, saying why I made it and what it offers over the online tool, and was directly told that those things do not matter and that not being a website actually made it less convenient

[unique cypress]

you'd be better off using the community ranker than that reddit post. especially the one optimizing for effort, because imo that one's completely incorrectly made

[deft lichen]

the spreadsheet is so great that the author had to put asterisks on recipes that are so wildly out of place

iron pipe in D tier, encased industrial pipe and recycled rubber in C tier, suuuuurely that's ranking worth following

[agile junco]

I haven't seen that. Is it a webpage or standalone app?

[unique cypress]

https://satisfactory-ranker-91f08c6418db.herokuapp.com/

[deft lichen]

there was another site like this no?

with a different URL and design

[agile junco]

Awesome thanks.

[runic kraken]

i just assumed some are more useful than others

[runic kraken]

how many alternate recipes are there in game?

[deft lichen]

hilarious popularity contest, I love everything about this

[unique cypress]

I still think some of the recipes are far from where they should be, but it's at least better than that garbage reddit tierlist

[agile junco]

Yea this is what I thought, which is probably good enough short of adding confusing options, though I generally have to still do some tweaking to disable recipes I dont want to use.

[deft lichen]

yeah pretty much every alt at the top of the list is great, with some major one-off outliers lower down (iron alloy, copper rotor, adhered/coated plates)

[unique cypress]

cast screws being 9th from the top instead 9th from the bottom is a joke lol

[deft lichen]

I personally find pure recipes overrated and those rank high there as expected

but diluted fuel being #1 and HOR #2 hits the nail beautifully

[unique cypress]

QW stator being above like 70 is a joke, same with OC SC

people vote based on vibes, not how useful the recipe actually is

[deft lichen]

QW stator isn't terrible but highly situational and definitely not #35

[oblique hollow]

average low tier recipe popularity moment

[deft lichen]

there could also be bias that people don't know the later tiers as well

[wind spade]

That I don't claim Tools produce "best" results or that a recipe is "34% better"

[wind spade]

They are, but that assumes specific preferences. Every recipe is useful for something, but do you like/want that something?

[wind spade]

Yeah, all those different rankings, you could roll a dice and make another from the dice results 🙂 and it would be equally good

[agile junco]

What I liked at first about the reddit post was that they at least tried to use some sort of weighted system, but it's true it didn't seem to work well.

It matches what I kinda want though, sometimes I'm looking to save power, sometimes to save resources. Generally I think I like to reduce the number of machines though. Or some balance between than and resource use.

[deft lichen]

@wind spade how difficult would it be to make the solver solve for lowest building count? (irregardless of new Tools being wip)

would be interesting to see what it'd come up with

[wind spade]

That depends, is 0.25 of a constructor valued as 0.25 or 1?

[agile junco]

Depends how many of them you need. If it's just 0.25 total, then it's 1, no?

[deft lichen]

I'd say 1, since you can't build fractional buildings, and we'll ignore the size of individual buildings for this

[wind spade]

Then pretty hard

(In context of current tools)

[deft lichen]

hmmm, then it depends if fractional buildings would produce a huge error in the result

for large enough outputs, 30 vs 30.1 vs. 31 buildings gets lost

you could do the opposite, use fractional buildings but factor the size

orrr the amount of I/O used, since that's what determines complexity

[wind spade]

It's a matter of scale, fractional buildings dissappear with bigger scale. Depends if you're looking to optimise specific case or just recipe path

[agile junco]

Amount of IO would be good too.

[wind spade]

That's probably even harder

[deft lichen]

15 constructors is better than 10 assemblers, not necessarily by size but because you only have to deal with 1 input

[deft lichen]

isn't that just a fixed value for each recipe?

[unique cypress]

whatever you do, you want to avoid doing what logistics did when optimizing for area - creating 1 single machine using a different recipe than the 30 machines using another recipe

[wind spade]

You want number of actual input sockets? Or am I misreading it?

[unique cypress]

it might be optimal mathematically, but it's useless

[deft lichen]

we're attributing weights to different buildings
smelters and constructors have a base cost of 1
foundries and assemblers have a higher cost, but not necessarily due to having a larger footprint, but due to handling 2 inputs
a factory isn't just the buildings but also the logistics, so while optimizing for "lowest building count", this is directly related

[unique cypress]

like is using every singe recipe for concrete what anyone's actually looking for?

[deft lichen]

how to determine these weights, I don't know

[wind spade]

Then it's the same as number of buildings

[deft lichen]

ah I didn't get to my point

[wind spade]

Just weighted

[deft lichen]

a 3-input manufacturer recipe has less weight than a 4-input manufacturer recipe

that's practically it

this affects packagers, refineries, manufacturers, blenders and PAs (QE always uses the full 4)

[wind spade]

Weighted recipes are doable (but again, runs into "partial buildings" issue)

[brisk smelt]

don't you always just round up anyways

also there are recipes where realistically the default clock isnt 250% but rather 200 or 225% because of some weird ratios

how is that accounted then

[unique cypress]

all of my machines run at 100% or 250%. never anyting else

[tiny leaf]

ah okay i just saw a few reddit posts that said 1.0 changed sloshing a little making it less reliable

[deft lichen]

huh, such as?

it's always assumed that you have N * 100% + 1 * <100%

[vapid gorge]

possibly? but those styles of things are just in the pile of 'things that are not very reliable'.

you might as well just feed the waste water in with a powered pump if you're going to do that

[agile junco]

What do people generally do with SAM?

Other than basic ficsit ingot production.

[unique cypress]

I use some for conversion for my ammunition factory

but othern than that, ficsite and fluctuators

[runic kraken]

i want to go get as many hard drives as i can

[agile junco]

And fluctuators are just for power augmentation once I have enough power?

[unique cypress]

you need them for building too

[agile junco]

Oh sure, forgot about that.

[mossy ibex]

dimensional storage, eg

[runic kraken]

how did u get that visualisation?

[unique cypress]

satisfactory logistics

[runic kraken]

ah

thought it was satisfactory tools

[unique cypress]

but yeah, matrices eat a lot fluctuators. 600 SAM/min for 1 matrixed augmenter

[wind spade]

Then get all recipes 🙂

[runic kraken]

it it possible to get all alternate recipies?

[mossy ibex]

jesus, I didn't know this

[runic kraken]

i thought it wasnt

[mossy ibex]

it is

[unique cypress]

yes, there's 5 more drives than you could possibly use

[mossy ibex]

there are more hard drives than recipes

[runic kraken]

neat

[wind spade]

Yes

[oblique hollow]

that 600 sam has the benefit of it increasing a multiplier for power instead of being flat X MW..

Hmm wait actually... the cost of SAM per MW gained actually goes up faster than you get power out of it

[woeful zenith]

Does that also account for the 3 hard drives needed for MAM research?

[unique cypress]

wdym cost goes up faster than power?

[unique cypress]

iirc it does

[oblique hollow]

600 SAM per 5/min Matrices, right?

Alright give me like an hour then i will try to finish that train of thought, i gotta do stuff

[mossy ibex]

yeah, the MAM ones used to just be normal alts, but they were so overwhelmingly popular that they were added to the MAM so people could control whether and when they got the alt. Stills costs a hard drive, but it's a gauranteed recipe now

[woeful zenith]

Oh I see

[unique cypress]

it makes sense tbh. turbofuel is not an alt for fuel

neither is compacted coal an alt for coal

[woeful zenith]

The wiki.gg considers regular turbofuel as an alt lol I guess remnant from few years ago

[normal latch]

is the idea for alt recipes to just turn everything into iron ore as input?

Iron Ore -> Iron Pipe + Iron Wire -> Steel Rotor

heh

[mossy ibex]

there are a handful of alts that do that

[wind spade]

that's just one of many ways to use alts, and this one is very expensive imo

[vapid gorge]

lots of recipes swap resources around, sometimes quite significantly.

[normal latch]

definitely a fun aspect of the game is playing with alternate recipe potentials

[vapid gorge]

yeah there's no single optimal path for you to take for anything you do

[unique cypress]

the default turbofuel recipe is in the AlternateRecipes folder in the game files

[wind spade]

it is alt, it needs HDD to get

there's no official definition of "alternate recipe", so wiki just assumes "anything that requires HDD"

[unique cypress]

I'd say that anything that has "Alternate:" written in the name is an alternate recipe 🤔

[wind spade]

that's one way to define them 🤷

(but also we had cases where this name changed mid-patch, with just translations update)

[normal latch]

as i look at alt recipes

i think some outliers exist

diluted fuel is just an outlier, its just better in all cases it seems, by a tremendous margin too

[vapid gorge]

it's a lot more work

[normal latch]

if my math is right, it literally just quadruples your fuel output per crude input

[vapid gorge]

that's a trade off

[knotty hornet]

Diluted fuel is critical in almost any project involving crude.

[normal latch]

yea to call that a tradeoff seems like a flawed perspective on it

[knotty hornet]

Indubitably

[normal latch]

simply put, it's just so much better that whatever "work" we're talking about is irrelevant

the other outliers seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, like converting wood to coal lol

those alts seem terrible objectively, regardless of whatever argument someone might try to make

[knotty hornet]

Yeah, it just involves adding some blenders and water extractors, but for the multiplier, that work is negligible

[vapid gorge]

better is subjective.

Will most people be willing to trade teh extra work space and power for more out of their oil? sure

[vapid gorge]

How else are you going to turn pigs into uranium rods?

I'd like to hear you come up with a better idea

[normal latch]

what do you mean lol

[unique cypress]

not to mention that default fuel uses 40 refineries for 1600 oil, while HOR + diluted uses 20 refineries and 16 blenders. it's not even more work

[vapid gorge]

`turn pig flesh to bio mass
bio mass to coal
use sam to convert it in a series of processes to turn them into urarnium rods

[normal latch]

shh dont let objectivity interfere with the "everything is subjective" argument heh

[mystic hawk]

What alts?

[normal latch]

turn pig flesh to tickets and buy what you need in the shop

[vapid gorge]

nah, uranium rods. That's where it's at

[normal latch]

biocoal

[mystic hawk]

Yeah biocoal is trash

[normal latch]

and yeah, that heavy oil residue recipe also seems op

[mystic hawk]

Diluted fuel is very funny actually

[knotty hornet]

HOR + Diluted Fuel = objectively the best two recipes in the game

[normal latch]

i should start planning my power upgrade into rocket fuel now, but i dont have the op diluted fuel recipe yet

yep, i have one of the two

im just looking at my options for fuel stuff and it was like "oh, literally 4x my output, wtf"

[unique cypress]

build it assuming you have it and get it after

[mystic hawk]

What does diluted fuel use, again?

[knotty hornet]

5 HOR + 5 Water = 10 Fuel

[mystic hawk]

Cool

[normal latch]

so basically make my regular heavy oil portion, and convert to fuel with the regular recipe first, then replace that later?

[unique cypress]

add recycled rubber and plastic and you get 4.5x more plastic/rubber per oil than defaults

[normal latch]

here was my math btw for the curious:

60 Crude = 40 Fuel + 30 Polymer
6:4

VS

30 Crude = 40 Heavy + 20 Polymer
50 Heavy + 100 Water = 100 Fuel
150:400
3:8
6:16

i have the recycle plastic which i use

[unique cypress]

no, build it as if you have the recipe. blenders and all. the recipe is just not set. then you go scan drices

[normal latch]

oh i see

well shouldnt i go scan first?

[unique cypress]

best if you already have drives and they're just scanning as you build

[knotty hornet]

I could always help doing FEET work, if I have equipment.

[normal latch]

ohh i see

like, go find drives, come home to build, keep scanning every 10 mins

[knotty hornet]

I need: hazmat, gas mask, appropriate filters, blade runners, jetpack, fuel, a basher, a rifle (and ammo), a detonator, an object scanner, and a boombox

[normal latch]

which rifle ammo

[knotty hornet]

Any is fine, homing preferred.

[normal latch]

you also need ladders

[knotty hornet]

Not if I have a jetpack 😏

[normal latch]

heh i like to ladder higher than my jetpack goes

u using packaged liquid biofuel jetpack?

mine is turbo

[knotty hornet]

I guess i have been spoiled by ionized fuel lol

[normal latch]

oh im not at ionized yet

[knotty hornet]

LBF is great too though, if you just feather it on the jump key, you can still get pretty high

[normal latch]

do the harddrive amounts match alt recipe amounts? or are there excess harddrives?

[knotty hornet]

There are 5 extras

[unique cypress]

there's 5 more HDDs than recipes

[knotty hornet]

6 if you did FICSMAS

[normal latch]

7 then, since i dont count the bio recipes lol

[unique cypress]

I also don't count the bolted recipes and the 2 screw alts

[normal latch]

tru

i read a trick that i use

when i get bad recipes, i actually keep the drive there

so i cant reroll the bad stuff

[unique cypress]

my favourite 3 drives to leave in the library forever: charcoal + biocoal, bolted plate + bolted frame, cast screw + steel screw

[normal latch]

screw that

[unique cypress]

it still costs 3 drives but it does remove 6 awful recipes

[normal latch]

yep ill do the same

im eyeing the pure recipes since i'll soon have crazy power

[knotty hornet]

Screws are really not so bad 😭

[normal latch]

heh the community turned me off of them immediately

so to be fair, i only have a biased lens to view them under

[thorny gorge]

Steel screws are a mass production blessing!

[magic island]

Screws get a bad rap because they're cumbersome with default recipes

With alt recipe chains for Screws, they're no worse than Wire

[wind spade]

not true, it's more complex

[wind spade]

they are fine even with base recipes

[knotty hornet]

Not quite #math-and-meta message

[wind spade]

complexity is not number of machines

[normal latch]

i dont buy that argument greeny, sorry to say

like, the entire premise is odd, seems correct that the recipe is simply overpowered (or strongest objectively, whatever wording is needed)

[wind spade]

default fuel is one step from oil with solid sinkable byproduct
diluted fuel is two steps and needs extra water

[magic island]

what I mean is, Iron Rod -> Screw is one of the more annoying steps in early-game production, especially when you're learning the ropes

so that kinda turns people off Screws permanently, even after alts make them easier to manage

[unique cypress]

the recipes that use them are just bad

[wind spade]

so yeah, DF/DPF is more complex

[unique cypress]

screws themselves are fine but I have 0 reason or desire to actually use them

[normal latch]

water is also an unlimited resource in the game

[wind spade]

it's still increased complexity

[normal latch]

im not sold on that angle even being relevant to the power of the recipe

[knotty hornet]

Like, yes, there is a tradeoff, and that tradeoff is worth it.

[magic island]

getting the product ratios you want out of Oil has a certain amount of complexity baked in anyway, so Diluted Fuel isn't that much of an additional hurdle

[brisk smelt]

yes but not really much more complex for anyone to care

[normal latch]

not only that, but anyone could argue that increased complexity is fun and "better" if they wanted, its not even a metric worth integrating into the equation

[wind spade]

whether you care or not is up to you
doesn't change the fact that the production line is more complex

[normal latch]

the whole idea is progression increases complexity in the game, in general

[normal latch]

again, how is that even relevant to the discussion?

[wind spade]

for you, sure

for some people or some cases, not always

[normal latch]

i feel like youve lost the plot heh

[wind spade]

discussion is about whether DF is objectively better
my point is that it's not because it's more complex

[normal latch]

yea, thats a weak point so weak i give is zero weight and can even use it against your position

but only slightly, since again, it has no magnitude to it

anyways, i think everyone understands, diluted fuel is obscenely strong

[brisk smelt]

is there a single person that wouldn't? water and oil coexist at every node location, that complexity might as well not be considered given that the nearby sulfur nodes also supply enough to turbo everything

[wind spade]

how you weight it is relevant for your own preferences, not for "objective" evaluation

[knotty hornet]

If it is 50% more complex for a 100% more product, is that not "objectively better"?

[magic island]

You could also say that Solid Steel Ingot is more complex than Default, but I can't imagine anyone citing that as a reason not to use Solid

[knotty hornet]

If you say no, you are a clown

[wind spade]

no

[knotty hornet]

And there it is 🤡

[normal latch]

yep, its the same argument heh

side note, that recipe is great too

another top tier one that is just a net gain for little to no cost

[wind spade]

if a car costs twice as much and has four times as much power, is it objectively better?

no it isn't, because some people may prefer cheaper car and not care about power because they need it for slower driving around a city

[brisk smelt]

is sinking poly resin from shit oil recipe not also complex...

[brisk smelt]

well no that analogy is inherently incorrect, more correct is driving a manual vs an automatic costing the same and the only difference that the manual saves 50% fuel

[knotty hornet]

Abababab-- don't bring real life into this

[wind spade]

number of steps is higher, number of raw resources is higher, number of byproducts is equal

there's nothing "less complex" about DF

(that's not me saying it's bad, that's just me saying it's more complex)

[brisk smelt]

are you really considering water as a resource?

[knotty hornet]

He is

[wind spade]

yes, not all oil wells are near water

[knotty hornet]

I'm feeling secondhand embarrassment right now

As an empath, I shouldn't be in this conversation anymore

[wind spade]

I don't care about water usage
I care about having to find a place where more types of raw resources is, or having to bring them together

[brisk smelt]

do you really think anyone uses that 900m3 well in the middle of the desert for plastic

[wind spade]

and again, I'm not arguing that I personally would not use DF. I'm just saying it is more complex

[unique cypress]

all oil nodes are near water lmao

[brisk smelt]

and if im not mistaken that has a pond next to it too

[wind spade]

that depends on what do you consider "near"

[knotty hornet]

The only one I would consider not "near water" is the one southwest of the dune desert, but even then, it's not that far.

Most people have belts longer than that distance.

[unique cypress]

that one has a water well 300m away

and a pond that can fit 2 extractors 200m away

[wind spade]

look, I'm not arguing against your preferences
neither I am saying which preferences do I have

the only thing I'm arguing against is the "objectively better", which is just not true.

[knotty hornet]

Oh shit, didn't know that, I never play over there 😭

[normal latch]

the objectivity is the only true part of this though, like what do you think objectivity and subjectivty are exactly?

[magic island]

so the use-case for non-Diluted fuels is if you are using one specific patch of Oil nodes on the map, and have not yet unlocked the tech to use the nearby water well

[knotty hornet]

It's too bad you'll never win that argument, cuz the "objectively better" has been hyperbole this entire time

[normal latch]

pragmatically speaking, diluted fuel is better than not using it

[knotty hornet]

(Even if true)

[unique cypress]

plus objectively better or not doesn't matter if every single person will choose to use that recipe if able

[wind spade]

"objectively" = "not influenced by preferences"

since your preference is to ignore slight increase of complexity, it's no longer objective

[normal latch]

lol im tapping out

anyways, im starting my calculations for rocket fuel power

and comparing the alts, its fun to ponder

[wind spade]

or for people that need small amount of fuel and don't want to build more complex setups and bring water 🤷

[knotty hornet]

Let's be real, who ever goes all the way to a crude oil vein just needing a "small amount of fuel"?

[brisk smelt]

soooo you may choose to use the worse recipe

[wind spade]

*simpler

[brisk smelt]

not mutually exclusive

[knotty hornet]

You really want just a small amount of fuel?

[wind spade]

idk, someone who wants to make some packaged fuel to depot?

people have different goals lol

[brisk smelt]

well i have a FMF 85/min that uses like 300 crude for 700 fuel to make frames

but yeah thats the only i can think of

[knotty hornet]

Okay, well considering that that setup necessarily needs water to make the plastic for packaging, then you already will have water, so diluting is easy

[wind spade]

canisters have alts

[knotty hornet]

More complex 😏

[normal latch]

lol

[knotty hornet]

🤡

[wind spade]

I personally find a recipe that needs one item as less complex

[normal latch]

also, here is my rocket fuel first path (simplest path, sink all excess, easy)
Path 1
30 Crude = 40 Heavy + 20 Polymer
50 Heavy + 100 Water = 100 Fuel
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
100 Fuel + 75 Nitrogen + 100 Sulfur + 50 Coal = 150 Rocket + 25 Compacted
2 Fuel = 3 Rocket
600 Crude = 1600 Fuel = 2400 Rocket

[knotty hornet]

Which one recipe alt is that??

[magic island]

Oil is a case where even the simpler/default recipes have byproducts you need to manage or sink, and it takes some mathing if you want a particular ratio of fuel & solid products. So the simplicity upside is pretty slim

versus like, smelting Caterium where the default is dramatically less effort than the higher-yield alts

[wind spade]

steel canister

[wind spade]

but also "worse" depends on what you define as "worse", for example, if you're talking about oil to fuel efficiency, sure, I'd agree

[knotty hornet]

So you're gonna now bring steel over to your setup for packaging fuel, adding another resource chain into it, to avoid water, cuz adding water is "too complex"?

You, sir, are a 🤡

[wind spade]

steel may be there already 🤷

[brisk smelt]

water may also be there already

[magic island]

steel is never already anywhere, it's made of two things

[normal latch]

love and compassion, right?

those are the ingredients to steel if im not mistaken

[wind spade]

because everyone plays the same as you, sure 😉

[magic island]

i dont have any Steel Nodes on my map, im not sure that's a playstyle thing

[knotty hornet]

Greeny is so willing to save the use of the word "objectively," he's making claims that are objectively clownish

[wind spade]

I have factories all over my map, I'm sure they are in different places than other people's

[normal latch]

how do i calculate how much power i get from 2400 rocket fuel in fuel power generators?

[brisk smelt]

divide that by burn/min

[knotty hornet]

2400 ÷ (25/6) × 250

[unique cypress]

divide by 25/6 and multiply by 250

[wind spade]

[energy] * [fuel amount] / [power produced] = [number of fuel gens]

[normal latch]

cool thx team

[knotty hornet]

I'm a member of T.O.E. in my factory

[brisk smelt]

rougly 230.4 gens making 144GW

[knotty hornet]

Tracking Operational Expectations

[normal latch]

no one pioneer should have all that power heh

[magic island]

the Rocket Fuel math is always hilarious if you aim for a fuel amount instead of a generator count

[brisk smelt]

thats acc not that much power

[normal latch]

i wish the rocket fuel made more items like rocket powered bullets

[knotty hornet]

That's 119 standard lightning strikes

[normal latch]

there should be a rocket launcher that shoots nobelisks

[knotty hornet]

There is, it's called your arm

[normal latch]

i want it in an automated rocket fuel powered launcher heh

seems like something the devs could add too

[unique cypress]

Lightning strikes are generally measured in Joules or Coulombs, not Watts

[knotty hornet]

https://tenor.com/view/b2tf-back-to-the-future-gif-24927180

[normal latch]

curious what you studied if you dont mind sharing

you sound like a scientist or engineer

[knotty hornet]

Don't ruin my movie reference

[unique cypress]

Nanoengineering

[normal latch]

cool, heard of buckminster fuller i presume?

[unique cypress]

so a mix physics, chemistry, and engineering

[normal latch]

yea you sound like someone who knows those things, i went the civil and environmental engineering route (save the planet)

but now im a software engineer since i also like that

[knotty hornet]

Bucky balls are the pi of nanotechnology, everyone knows them.

[normal latch]

fullerenes heh

i read a few of his books, really interesting writing and thinking style for sure

do you still work/practice nanoengineering?

[unique cypress]

the guy who fullerense are named after

[normal latch]

yep that guy

[unique cypress]

on my last year rn

[normal latch]

oh nice, still a baby (not meant as an insult)

good choice, nano tech was always interesting

i wonder how general machine learning will integrate with it

[runic kraken]

is going into fuel energy worth it at phase 2?

or should i only make enough to cover my usage

also is homing AR ammo good? ( i forgor what its called i mean the black one)

[normal latch]

fuel gives so much energy even with a basic setup

[brisk smelt]

*power

[runic kraken]

yeah im looking at 125 generators i think

so about 32 250 MW i think

[normal latch]

do it

[runic kraken]

31k *

[runic kraken]

ye i think i will

turns out i can only run 100 fuel generators :c

[normal latch]

i believe i found a winner for rocket fuel

Path 1
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
2 Fuel = 3 Rocket
3 Crude = 8 Fuel = 12 Rocket
1 Crude = 4 Rocket

Path 2
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
3 Crude = 4 Heavy
1 Fuel + 2 Heavy = 3 Turbo
3 Turbo = 5 Rocket
1 Fuel + 2 Heavy = 3 Turbo = 5 Rocket
16 Crude = 8 Fuel + 16 Heavy = 24 Turbo = 40 Rocket
2 Crude = 5 Rocket
1 Crude = 2.5 Rocket

Path 3
3 Crude = 4 Heavy
3.75 Heavy = 3 Turbo = 5 Rocket
15 Heavy = 12 Turbo = 20 Rocket
60 Heavy = 48 Turbo = 80 Rocket
45 Crude = 60 Heavy = 48 Turbo = 80 Rocket
45 Crude = 80 Rocket
9 Crude = 14 Rocket
1 Crude = 1.56 Rocket

Path 4
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
22.5 Fuel = 30 Turbo
3 Turbo = 5 Rocket
3 Crude = 8 Fuel = 10 2/3 Turbo = 17 7/9 Rocket
1 Crude = 5.93 Rocket

Path 5
15 Fuel + 30 Heavy + 22.5 Sulfur + 22.5 Coke = 45 Turbo
40 Heavy = 120 Coke
15 Fuel + 30 Heavy + 7.5 Heavy = 45 Turbo
15 Fuel + 37.5 Heavy = 45 Turbo
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
3 Crude = 4 Heavy
5.625 Crude + 28.125 Crude = 45 Turbo = 75 Rocket
33.75 Crude = 75 Rocket
1 Crude = 2.22 Rocket

Convert Crude to Fuel, then Fuel to Turbo, then Turbo to Rocket

Recipes include: Heavy Oil Residue, Diluted Fuel, Turbofuel, and Rocket Fuel

[unique cypress]

I suggest you check your math

[normal latch]

probably a good suggestion lol

[wind spade]

or use a planner to do this in 5 seconds 😛

[normal latch]

i like doing the math

[unique cypress]

because, afaik, the max is 4 RF per 1 oil

[echo gust]

i join this discord an this is the first thing i see 😆 . end game is gonna kill me

[unique cypress]

so nearly 6 sounds sus

and also, oil efficiency is not the only thing that matters when making RF

[normal latch]

idk my math seems right on that one

what am i missing?

Path 4
3 Crude = 8 Fuel
22.5 Fuel = 30 Turbo
3 Turbo = 5 Rocket
3 Crude = 8 Fuel = 10 2/3 Turbo = 17 7/9 Rocket
1 Crude = 5.93 Rocket

What is wrong with this equation?

[wind spade]

max RF is 4 per 1 oil

[normal latch]

where is the math wrong tho

[unique cypress]

8 fuel is 6 2/3 TF

[normal latch]

maybe i wrote the recipe wrong? seems to not follow from the lil equations i made there

[wind spade]

TF recipe is 6 fuel -> 5 TF

[unique cypress]

it's 6 fuel to 5 TF

[normal latch]

yep i had written it wrong, as 30

prob was reading different lines lol, lemme fix

3.70

sad times

[feral stream]

SAME! I’m sitting here planning my next coal factory upgrade to MAYBE make 2-3GW (compared to my 1500MW currently)… it makes me excited though XD

[normal latch]

so basically for rocket fuel, skip the turbo intermediary

[unique cypress]

if you want max oil efficiency, yes

[normal latch]

i kinda wish that the first path (simpliest) wasnt the best lol

[unique cypress]

it's not

it's the simplest and most oil efficient

but it costs a lot more of the other resources

[normal latch]

is oil not the most limited resource in general? that was kinda my perception

[wind spade]

no

[feral stream]

No power is the most limited resource XD

[wind spade]

since you basically triple it with alts, it's very common

[magic island]

Oil stretches incredibly far with alts

[normal latch]

i guess thats true

hmm maybe sulfur is the resource to keep an eye on then

[thorn trail]

patience is the most limited resource in this game

[wind spade]

only if you're doing TF or TF-based fuels

(which I personally wouldn't)

[normal latch]

im not sure what to control for since i suppose i have excess resource nodes of everything with such a big map

to control for oil, use fuel to rocket directly, which is simple enough

its what i'll probably do, but im curious about the pros/cons of other options

[unique cypress]

basically the only 2 options I would consider

the differences in resource costs are not insignificant

[normal latch]

what tool makes those graphs?

[unique cypress]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[magic island]

The way I think of "limited" resources is, "how likely am I to devour entire nodes and still need to go searching for more?"

which shifts over the course of the game, but Oil is one I rarely feel like I'm running out of

[normal latch]

yea i realize now that i think more about it (especially with context of alts to boost fuel), oil is abundant enough to not worry much

so with method 1, the real limiting factor is that you consume lots of nitrogen it seems

[unique cypress]

you'd only want to save oil if you're planning on going all in on oil diamonds

other than that, oil is very plentiful

[normal latch]

actually its not much different nitrogen-wise

[unique cypress]

#2 uses no coal and a lot less sulur. those are the main differences

[normal latch]

another question could be "how much power do i actually need?" at some point, although i want a tremendous amount heh

i see, yea big differences to be fair, worth considering

i bet its location dependent in terms of which path to pick

like i bet there is a spot that is ideal for path 1 and a different spot that makes path 2 more appealing

idk though, interesting to ponder, really cool to see options

[agile junco]

What's the threshold for a pump to not be yellow status?

[frosty owl]

It's yellow if it's exceeding headlift or (iirc) if there's no flow (ie: pipework ahead is full, can't push more fluid, or there's no fluid from the source)

[echo gust]

yh but it feels like i come home after work to start another shift haha. its good fun

is there any websites or things that can help with math and creating more complicated lines? im spending so much time just making 1 production line lol

[wind spade]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/ for example

[feral stream]

Agreed!

Along with what @wind spade mentioned

satisfactory-calculator.com

It’s also nice you can put your save file in there and it overlays the map with all your machines/belts/etc

[wind spade]

wouldn't recommend their planner tho

[feral stream]

I haven’t used it, out of curiosity how come?

[wind spade]

it can't deal with loops or byproducts and can't use multiple recipes per item

also in their "realistic" mode, it makes horrible layouts

[feral stream]

Noted, I’ll keep that in mind when I am planning something worth using a planner for XD

[normal latch]

the more i look at it, the more i realize that oil REALLY isnt the limiting factor at all for power generation via rocket fuel lol

its actually not even particularly relevant, other resources will limit much sooner than oil, it seems

[woeful zenith]

That's also the case with turbofuel, it's always the other things that limit it

[knotty hornet]

Generally sulfur, unless you do Converter loops, which are themselves power-hungry.

[crimson moat]

Yeah, it's a limiting factor as in you should build somewhere near oil, but the actual quantity of it is not very important

at 1200 oil you're already looking at a few hundred gigawatts

[vague agate]

Hi All idk how to ask question in the question chat but i dont think this is a hard question ,,, i want to know if i run 600m^3 of oil through a mk2 pipe ,, will that still work if say the input=600 output=600 ? if not will i need a buffer tank to make sure 600m^3 is actually leaving the pipe ?

[wind spade]

you never need buffers (apart from train stations) and usually they hurt more than help

your setup will work if the feeding side eats fluids fast enough

[vague agate]

alright thank you !

[agile junco]

Is there a tool that helps setup power priorities and model power usage with various connections switched off?

[obsidian spade]

whats the best way to make steel? coal and iron or another alternate recipe?

[agile junco]

Coal and iron bars (solid steel) is pretty good.

Especially because it lets you use pure iron.

[obsidian spade]

for steel beams and pipes is it worth using molded recipe?

[agile junco]

I'm doing iron pipes rn actually.

[wind spade]

that depends how you define "best" 🙂

[knotty hornet]

Leached > pure 😎

But then you might as well do compacted steel and not deal with liquids

[agile junco]

Why would I spend sulfur on iron?

[knotty hornet]

Nearly double the rate per machine and about 7% better conversion

[runic kraken]

is it bad if i need to use 2 caterium nodes for just 1 factory?

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=6mIhU9O7UGJ9yKDhR95i

[agile junco]

Yea, I can see it if space is your biggest concern, but I need to save my sulfur.

[crimson moat]

yes, cheapest way

[knotty hornet]

Caterium is rough until you get the pure or leached recipes, so yeah, that's understandable

[runic kraken]

i got the pure recipe

but no t3 miners

and no pure node nearby

[knotty hornet]

Then yeah, you'll be fine. And once you do upgrade miners, you can switch down to only 1 node.

Or increase your capacity again

[runic kraken]

also

this is by far the biggest project i ever built

and im a bit scared

bcs looking at the most optimal recipies and stuff its like 2/3 of the cost

if not less for some materials

but getting alts is annoying and takes a boat load of time

should i just build it rn or get all alts i need first?

[knotty hornet]

Fuck it, we ball

[runic kraken]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=3gb21irNrtHkP1UvRRbl this is the hyper optimised setup

just with 5 less high speed connectors and circuit boards

[visual yarrow]

I was able to confirm that my caterium setup is working properly.

[normal latch]

is it accurate to say that pipes are automatically load balanced (aside from the sloshing type of issues)

[normal latch]

that looks nice!

[visual yarrow]

Generally speaking, a properly-built pipe network will balance itself.

The tricky part is defining and building what a "proprerly built" pipe network actually is.

[unique cypress]

pipe manifolds are as load balanced as item manifolds are

so not at all

[normal latch]

lol

[visual yarrow]

Actually, yeah, you're right. They work by filling up in sequence.

Sometimes I get the terminology mixed up, I was thinking "evenly distributed to the point where no machine goes idle"

Also: CONFIRMED. 600 + 600 = 1,200. You're all welcome.

[agile junco]

Love the cave builds.

[normal latch]

any reason to use industrial fluid buffers in my rocket fuel power plant?

[nimble nacelle]

just built this thing
might think about how to streamline the timing clock

anyways good night

[glad scaffold]

Hey there, hope you´l have a nice evening! I have an powerplant with 40 nuclear power plants, each overclocked 250% so it creates over all 1000 nuclear waste and I was wondering how I continue now. I want some blenders to create non-fissile-uranium and particle accelerators to create plutonium pellets but I´m not able to do a clean math behind this. Does anyone have an idea how to use every nuclear waste as optimal as possible?

[unique cypress]

optimal for what? do you want to make as much plutonium as possible or sink it as easily and cheaply as possible?

[glad scaffold]

My goal is to create Jacked Plutonium Cells, hope yk what I mean. Sry for not clarifying that.

[unique cypress]

no, I don't

[glad scaffold]

I want these ones as the final product

[unique cypress]

why?

[glad scaffold]

to craft Plutonium Fuel Rods so I also can Burn them in the power plant

[unique cypress]

then the goal is plutonium rods?

the most you can make from 1k waste is 26.(6) Pu Rods/min, but that needs 1000 extra uranium ore, or 8.(8), and that's without any extra uranium

[agile junco]

Math is mathing

The displays fluctuate a few ppm just due to the nature of irregular production.

[glad scaffold]

ok thank you

[agile junco]

My internal belt is at 1180. Can't really squeeze much more out of this system.

[visual yarrow]

Trits sounds like a term used to describe triple critical hits. (IE, you'd modify your base damage by your critical modifier * 3)

Although in some cases, i've seen games with stacking critical hits that apply their bonus multiplicatively, rather than additively.

[visual yarrow]

Have you considered a belt speed regulator™?

[small swallow]

You mean like the score bonuses in Lego games?

[agile junco]

squints

[visual yarrow]

Possibly. I am not familiar enough with the way that works.

[small swallow]

Oh. Well basically, if you have score x2 and score x4 active, it's score x8 instead of score x6.

[visual yarrow]

Quick example: let's say you have 100 damage, and a x2 crit multiplier. Additive would mean a trit would give you 400 damage, since it's adding the same amount for each instance, but multiplicative would leave you with 800 because it's multiplying the previous result.

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, that's multiplicative modifiers in a nutshell.

I play a lot of Path of Exile, so this particular brand of calculation is nothing new to me, hah.

[visual yarrow]

I can explain if that's what you're asking.

Eh, i'm going to explain anyways, who am I kidding.

[agile junco]

What happens when the storage fills up?

[visual yarrow]

The basic idea is that it takes a buffer container, and uses the belt speed of the output of a base value, then splits off the precise amount while merging the excess back.

[agile junco]

or am I missing that's a sink, and it's sourced on the other side?

[visual yarrow]

It doesn't, as long as you are inputting exactly as much as the output is letting out.

Oh, yeah, there's an overflow sink at the end if the dimensional depot fills up.

[agile junco]

I see no dimensional depot here.

[visual yarrow]

It's in an entirely different location, but it's not really important.

Just that that belt there leads to it.

So I know i'm making 45/m HMFs. In this case, that's very each to achieve by splitting a MK3 belt (270) in half (135), and then into three (45)

[agile junco]

Seems like fun to build and see working, but ultimately useless lol

[visual yarrow]

Pretty much. It does have some niche uses when you're dealing with bulk cargo transport, like at train stations. But I mainly use it for belt aesthetics and even flow.

[unique cypress]

that's basically a belt limiter? with a container in it for some reason?

[visual yarrow]

Define belt limiter for me so I can be sure we're on the same page.

[agile junco]

I'm dealing with some pretty weird numbers though, since this is part of a recycled rubber/plastic system operating at very near capacity.

[unique cypress]

a setup that limits a belt to a specific throughput. if fed less items than the design speed, everything gets through, if it's fed more, items are allowed to pass through at the design speed and the input belt backs up

[visual yarrow]

Yeah. Weirder numbers are harder.

[agile junco]

I thought the storage would be to sink excess into a depot, but that seems to be elsewhere.

[visual yarrow]

Okay, the difference here and the reason for the container is that this system is designed to have even spacing between items on the output belt.

[unique cypress]

As long as you're not trying to split off π, or e, or √2, or anything else irrational, it's always possible to build a ratio/rate splitter for that mumber

[agile junco]

Yes. I mentioned that the other day.

[visual yarrow]

This isn't really a good screenshot of it, but the sink is there, on that roof.

[agile junco]

But I really don't need to deal with that many joints.

[visual yarrow]

You can also see the dimensional depot.

[agile junco]

Yea, I guess the storage unit is acting like a buffer indeed. If production is highly irregular, like was my original point.

[visual yarrow]

In this case, it's heavy encased frames, which output three at a time.

[agile junco]

But I would have thought the feeding belt would do the same thing tbh.

[last matrix]

why do I do this to myself

[visual yarrow]

This is... not the best screenshot of it, but you can see that the "tempo" of the belt is even.

[agile junco]

I just finished building 161 refineries. I feel you.

[visual yarrow]

Ooh, bolted frame? Underrated recipe.

[unique cypress]

the biggest mistake here are the recipes lol

[visual yarrow]

There are two kinds of people in the world, apparently.

[last matrix]

the numbers work out perfectly

it took well over an hour of tweaking and trying different recipe chains and combinations of alts before I could make an HMF factory that did not have a ton of leftovers of random intermediates

[vapid gorge]

so compact and nice

[last matrix]

and the convenience of no tethering to coal for this is also nice

[visual yarrow]

You and I are kindred spirits.

[vapid gorge]

why not just clock the intermediates right?

[last matrix]

I was - there was no way to get them to all line up

[unique cypress]

HMFs have no byproducts?

[last matrix]

read what I wrote

[vapid gorge]

... i did. You can always clock machines to make whatever pm you need total

which is what is confusing

[unique cypress]

it's still your choice to make extra intermediate products...

[visual yarrow]

Wait. You look familiar... have I seen you on Earendel's discord server before?

[unique cypress]

you can very easily just not make them

[last matrix]

here is an example of an abandoned idea I could not make line up

[last matrix]

I was talking to KYO

[last matrix]

I am on that server but I do not think I have ever posted there

[visual yarrow]

I might have seen your profile picture in the sidebar.

[last matrix]

ok I have, but not in two years https://i.imgur.com/FSSj5kS.png

[vapid gorge]

sure but I truly don't understnad how you c ould have possibly have gotten extra intermediates

[last matrix]

in isolation yes

[unique cypress]

I'd just build this 🤷‍♂️

[visual yarrow]

I once randomly ran into one of the people I raided in FFXIV with during the single tier I raided on Earendel's server, as well as an old minecraft content creator I used to watch.

[last matrix]

but not when you have to make every recipe line up

[vapid gorge]

wdym?

[unique cypress]

you don't have to tho

[visual yarrow]

Is the goal building count?

[last matrix]

at least, not without leaving tons of "wasted opportunity" in the form of using only like 87% of a node's output

[last matrix]

what do you mean

[unique cypress]

I see no point in wasting time and effort on using more resources just so it's 100% of a node

[visual yarrow]

I want to know specifically what you're trying to keep lined up and balanced. Depending on what it is, I may have some suggestions, because I play VERY similar to you.

[unique cypress]

if it's 87% utilzed, it's still 1 node occupied

[visual yarrow]

Yes, but some of us play this way.

[unique cypress]

it literally doesn't make any difference in node usage to use 100% of it

[visual yarrow]

I don't want to leave a node half-used because grabbing the excess from that node later on is harder if it's already providing for something. It's just personal preference, you don't need to... do this, again.

[last matrix]

I try to make my subfactories as efficient as possible, with that meaning "the most possible yield of the desired product(s) given the input nodes it will have"

[vapid gorge]

so just put a smart splitter on the front of it to over flow to a new spot when yo uwant to use it

[last matrix]

surplus in intermediate steps represents lost potential output

[visual yarrow]

I see y'all are just... continuing.

[last matrix]

and incomplete node utilization represents major lost potential output

[vapid gorge]

so reika, we were talking about you getting burnt out the other day?
this will be a huge reason of it

[unique cypress]

if you're not gonna use the node for anything else anyway, what does it matter that it has extra capacity?

[vapid gorge]

you wil never use all the nodes on the map >.>

[last matrix]

I know

[visual yarrow]

Can we stop focusing on the "why" because we're clearly not going to agree, and instead focus on the "how", since that's actually relevant?

[vapid gorge]

as yo uwill never be able to use al lthe nodes on the map, you're either wasting everything anyway or wasting nothing

[visual yarrow]

Okay, i'm going to go resume decorating this uranium node and/or play Touhou, then.

[vapid gorge]

ty

[vapid gorge]

aside from cutting your major projects in half, I think you really aught to try to be zen about node % usage because of that. Unless you really think that's a core part of the fun? but it doesn't sound like it

[vapid gorge]

and if you absolutely have to, use SF tools. You can input the resource restrictions you have and then hit maximise.

I restrited this to 600 iron ore for example https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=cYLOIkUIbHVjn12FzNHN

(you'd probably want to restrict it further ofc)

[last matrix]

no, but wasted potential feels awful

like on some level I am aware this is an overreaction to the past

ie this

and I am also aware of the fact that this is rather seriously overbuilding

like as mentioned previously I started doing this in my U8 playthrough and in that playthrough I completed entire tiers in a couple hours from the production

that was not remotely necessary

[vapid gorge]

Future proofing is a bigger waste since you don’t know what you’ll need
Whatever you build now just won’t fit

Plus you know, you frying your brain means you’ll do less

[last matrix]

I suppose the core issue is that I am struggling to strike a good balance between the two extremes

[vapid gorge]

Build what you need for now 🙂
Build a new factory on the future

[last matrix]

at one end you have the winging it, where you build a little of each thing, maybe enough to complete the current tier in a reasonable time, and then you realize you need 25x that amount to complete the next tier in a reasonable time, and so it takes 90 hours of letting the factory run before you have enough

and at the other end you have what I am currently doing

[last matrix]

historically that is what I did and it too was a painful slog, just in a different way

HMF in particular is one of those parts I still have a kind of PTSD about

[vapid gorge]

But at least you didn’t build things for nothing and burn out trying to max a node

[last matrix]

from memories from past playthroughs of waiting days of playtime just to get enough to do anything

[last matrix]

this is true

and the fact that the futureproofing "front-loads" all the grind does not help either

[vapid gorge]

and the reminder that future proofing generally doesn't work as you don't know what you'll want/need :\

[last matrix]

HMF, computers and supercomputers, turbomotors

those are the worst ones

[last matrix]

well having completed the game - though granted not in 1.0 - before I do have a good sense, I think

[last matrix]

and indeed most of the cases of this tend to be my first playthroughs of a game

[vapid gorge]

if you don't know the locations you'll choose and the recipes you choose this time and the PM of everything... it really doesn't work :

but ok here's a thing

is the main goal to finish the tiers and get to a point where it's a sand box?

[last matrix]

as a random example my first Techtonica playthrough I was waiting hours and hours just to get enough advanced circuits, because I was not producing coolant, plantmatter frames, or atlantum remotely fast enough, not having scaled up enough to meet what would end up being the demand; future playthroughs never had that problem because I built big from the beginning

[last matrix]

well as stated previously I lose motivation once there is nothing left to work towards so while the answer to your question is fundamentally "yes", it should be kept in mind that there will not be a sandbox phase afterwards

[unique cypress]

if the choice is between wasted potential resources and wasted actual resources, I'm taking the first one

[last matrix]

this was a thing even in factorio; I described a kind of PTSD with HMF, but I have the exact same thing with blue circuits and the like from my early factorio playthroughs

[vapid gorge]

Hmm so the whole point is just ticking hte boxes?
Well... if that's the case you could stlil do the Cobalt Method for going up the tiers.

it's not efficient but it's fast and you wind up with tons of parts

[last matrix]

less "ticking the boxes" per se - ie it is not about arbitrary task completion - as it is about experiencing the content

but what is the cobalt method

[vapid gorge]

basically get like 1 pure node's worth of each basic item.

I'll tend to cut otu screws and do iron wire instead for and other screwless recipes for it.

1st floor - ingots
2nd floor - constructors
3rd floor - assemblers
ect

have large buffers between each group to store up thousands of parts while you do things

when you unlock a new item? belt it to a new section , let over flow do it's work

leave space to the side of the smelters and constructors to lengthen the process when you get new belts

[last matrix]

minus the "pure node's worth" part that is basically what I did in my first couple of playthroughs

[vapid gorge]

all the 'pressure' from the thousands of items that back up while you get hard drives ect make FAST production

[last matrix]

and hell even early on in my U8 playthrough

[vapid gorge]

if you're doing that as a starter it gets messy. But with some logistics practice like you and I have it's not nearly as bad

like this is downright tidy

process -> feed upwards -> process -> feed upwards (sometimes to the side)

[last matrix]

seeing that makes me wonder if I should mention an additional possible difficulty I struggle with - I cannot stand "janky" looking builds

[vapid gorge]

define janky

[last matrix]

like yours is not bad really, though I avoid "free-placed" splitters and mergers on belts, especially angled ones

[last matrix]

basically anything that, for want of more specific description, looks "silly"

[vapid gorge]

ah, well that's not too hard to avoid. I could have spent more than 2 seconds on that >.>

[last matrix]

obviously clipping is the worst offender by far

[vapid gorge]

fair. But yeah spending more than 2 seconds isn't a big ask xD

[last matrix]

(note I mean visible clipping, rather than BB-only clipping)

but spaghetti and random belts just to make stuff work is not much better

belts can weave in complicated ways, and indeed I like that

but haphazard "just get things from A to B" and I look at it and hate it

shit like this https://i.imgur.com/syBXRm3.jpg

that is from my first playthrough, in 2020

[vapid gorge]

in any case I might advise you go back to initial method with better belt skills.

that was my 1.0 starter factory where everyhthing got made

[last matrix]

those manufacturers are the HMF, computer, etc ones

have the whole album if you like https://imgur.com/a/DwxOVVP

anyway I have aggressively avoided doing that ever again

[vapid gorge]

i mean that's real mess

[last matrix]

yes, it was - but that is what happens with no real planning for the future, since you have no idea what the future will contain

[vapid gorge]

this could be tidier w/o much effort

[last matrix]

it is not coincidence that that was my first playthrough

[vapid gorge]

do this then 🙂

you now have belt and pipe skills

[last matrix]

and some tools not present in U3, like straight build mode

also the 2D zoop mod

hell zoop itself was not a thing in U3

[vapid gorge]

yeah, SMART! was the go to

[visual yarrow]

remember having foundations slightly misalign when mass placing them

sigh

[agile junco]

So I have a minor dilemma. I'm building a factory to supply my depot and I have a lot of production which both needs to feed the depot (when I take things) and feed downstream production. My issue is that without building a lot of belt limiters, I'm not sure how to effectively sink stuff without setting it up so that later production will starve earlier production. If that makes sense.

[unique cypress]

smart splitters?

[visual yarrow]

i may need more info, but I can probably help

[last matrix]

how do you reconcile tidy/organized with fitting the terrain and foliage

that is also something i struggle with

[visual yarrow]

that is 100% just practice

[last matrix]

I have a ton of practice, but that does not make it easier

[vapid gorge]

build up. Start with a vaguely flat spot

[last matrix]

be it SF, Factorio, Techtonica, DSP, whatever

[visual yarrow]

easier? no. but you get better results.

[last matrix]

I always find myself awkwardly running out of space

[vapid gorge]

honestly, the location of that factory is in one the least flat spots in the game and it was fine

[last matrix]

all because I am unwilling to destroy some major scenery item

[last matrix]

that is basically what I do but then you have a giant floating platform factory

[visual yarrow]

yeah, my time on Fulgora in Space Age was... something.

[last matrix]

which is...also what I have been doing, but that too saps my motivation

[vapid gorge]

not if you ahve floors like that last image

[last matrix]

since it falls well into the janky category

[vapid gorge]

then it's a proper tall building

[agile junco]

yea, but they only help so much... since let's say i'm making 60 HMFs. I need 30 to produce the rest of the stuff in my factory, but I also want to upload 30. The numbers work if I used belt limiters to set things to 30 each. But if I take HMF out of the depot, then I have no way to not starve the production.

[last matrix]

one of my main Factorio mods is solely designed to punish standard "clear and pave it all" play styles

[vapid gorge]

pulls wans if you want I guess? I couldn't be bothered

[last matrix]

what do you mean

[unique cypress]

feed the further production first, overflow to depot, overflow from depot to sink

[last matrix]

you should see the arguments this has caused

there are a few reasons I do not play MP of these kinds of games and that is a big one

[last matrix]

wrong reply

[last matrix]

meant to reply to this, but it scrolled as I was clicking

[visual yarrow]

i know that feeling. i get super picky about how things look.

[vapid gorge]

multiple floors doesn't not make sky infrastructure

I also hate sky infrastructure 🙂

[agile junco]

That's basically my plan, but since I'm rounding up in a lot of places I'm worried I'm going to starve the lower productions while I'm making later stages.... though now that I'm saying it out loud, I'll sink the later stuff too, so it's not like I wont discover this issue and fix it right away.

[visual yarrow]

i was able to play modded minecraft with friends only because they let me design everything

[vapid gorge]

you could, pretty easily, put walls and pillars around that and it'd just be ab uilding

[last matrix]

same, especially when the things giving the visual appeal cannot be replaced

[visual yarrow]

oh jeez this gif is even bigger than the other one

[last matrix]

MC is pretty low-pressure about this since some worldgen stuff aside almost anything can be rebuild/recreated

but stuff like the big trees in Satisfactory? Not so much

[last matrix]

while true then you have a box factory

[visual yarrow]

shoutout to those trees that have massive hitboxes that collapse if they so much as think about the concept of an explosion

[last matrix]

which is better but not much

[last matrix]

there is a reason I use gardener's toolkit

[agile junco]

I guess this is a good argument for not putting my depots inside the factory floors... which I was thinking about avoiding anyway to make a nice mall.

[visual yarrow]

depot = train depot?

[agile junco]

dimensional

[vapid gorge]

you can make wings and have bits stick out non box like? but that didn't sound like it was a huge factory in just finishing the phases

[last matrix]

after about 20 save reloads from my U6 playthrough trying to nobelisk that buried slug by the former coal node in the northwest north forest, without killing the trees

[visual yarrow]

ohhh, gotcha.

i can't find another image of my fulgora build but this sums it up pretty well

[last matrix]

mine was...a lot more chaotic

first time organic growth again

[visual yarrow]

i actually did eventually replace the above thing with this whole train based system

for some reason, for me, fulgora was constantly having way too much holmium (???)

[last matrix]

https://i.imgur.com/Ba1sAzz.jpeg

[visual yarrow]

oh right I forgot about this feature. this was my starting island.

[last matrix]

honestly though vulcanus was even more chaotic as I& tried to build around the cliffs https://i.imgur.com/l1l1d5v.jpeg

[unique cypress]

I really need to go play SA again

[last matrix]

people like to complain about my rail lines

[visual yarrow]

and THIS was me after mass producing foundation

[unique cypress]

maybe I'll get to shattered this time

[visual yarrow]

this was probably my most complex build. i wanted to use the new train interrupts and... i forget the word, but the thing that lets you make them... more flexible in where they choose to go? basically it's a bit recycling facility.

i remember feeling somewhat dissapointed at the lack of need to actually obtain that many resources on aquilo

[last matrix]

I was going to do that but could not keep up the motivation

after I largely completed the techtree i just kind of lost steam

[unique cypress]

half of my playtime was designing the promethium ship tbh

and I am not exaggerating

[visual yarrow]

and then for vulcanus I tried very hard to build within the canyons and flat area

note to self: stop uploading gifs

[unique cypress]

but due to lack of time I didn't get to design a ship that could get all the way there

[last matrix]

i spent a few hours on mine and I did use it to get Pm

[visual yarrow]

i am 99% sure that it is not intended to be possible to do so

[unique cypress]

by the time I had time again, I lost interest in factorio

[last matrix]

but I never could being myself to bother with more than about five trips

[brisk smelt]

what did i walk into 😔

[last matrix]

i had the same issue in DSP

[visual yarrow]

i did, however, build a fully automated ship for promethium chunks that i am uploading a very important gif of

[last matrix]

never even finished my sphere

[unique cypress]

oh, I spent 150h on mine lmao

[last matrix]

my entire playthrough only lasted like 80 hours

if that

[visual yarrow]

i had biiig plans that I never really did anything with

by the way did you know I really like building railways

[unique cypress]

trains on gleba? despite lurking on the factorio discord and reddit from time to time, I don't think i've ever seen anyone do that

[last matrix]

that is another thing i struggle with in SF - rails are a huge pain to build if you want it to not look insabely janky

[visual yarrow]

it made sense up until the point where I realized I didn't actually have a need for the scale of production that required them?

[last matrix]

this was mine https://i.imgur.com/irr9oKD.jpeg

[visual yarrow]

honestly, I was getting bored around the time that I learned that they had changed the ability to recycle aquilo-produced rocket fuel to get a net gain

[last matrix]

also i need to go for a bit as i have to go pick up dinner

[visual yarrow]

because I had set up all of my trains with legendary rocket fuel imported from aquilo

was a pretty good excuse to stop

but maaaaan. I hated my nauvis spawn

[unique cypress]

my chonky promethium brick

[visual yarrow]

you can tell because of the comparative lack of rails

it's like. all goddamn desert.

[unique cypress]

I nearly hit 1 science per tick

[unique cypress]

I tink it's like v6?

[visual yarrow]

here's the galaxy of fame instead of me just posting screengrabs

https://factorio.com/galaxy/Iron I: Beta6-6.B7U5

it's kind of a shame it doesn't show my labels, though. i spent way too much effort on making fancy labels and giving random geographical features really weird pretentious names

as for DSP, I actually have completed quite a few spheres. the problem is I get addicted to making really ornate ones

and since i'm already completely off topic, here's my second mirror of kalandra drop in path of exile.

[unique cypress]

I need to play DSP sometime. I played it for like 5h years ago, steam didn't accept my refund so it's been sitting in my library ever since. It's definitely much better now than it was on February 1st, 2021

[visual yarrow]

it's quite fun. i rather have enjoyed making my mech look like a robotic dragon with shmup options that appear when in flight

oh and. yknow. the factory parts.

those are also fun.

[vapid gorge]

@tacit ridge https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=qRAlFYtvjRgX6KnLDGPi

often times something like this can also be a basic layout depending on size and belt speeds you have access to

[tacit ridge]

I did see that. Guess ill freehand my manufacturer layout.. have expanded it and want to clean it up.

[agile junco]

I guess the key here is to never split off production before the end of a earlier stage, or else I wont be able to sink it without straving things.

[vapid gorge]

when you come to making hte Manu group shift around the machines a bit before finalising it and hooking everythign up. once you get basic logistical skills it's ver yfast

[normal latch]

DSP is amazing, but maybe wait for the next big update when they release the other half of space battles

[scenic moon]

Hey all, I have 20 refinery in a row now, I've got them making plastics.
Using 30x Oil. 30x20 = 600
I have 1x T2 pipe feeding them all, but having a slight issue where some are turning off a lot of the time. Like image attached:
Do I need to add pumps to make them all work? Or should I feed from above?

[vapid gorge]

bring them up to the surface and feed at input level

and use a loop like this

[scenic moon]

Yeah okay, so no go from underneath?

[vapid gorge]

its possible but very finicky, especially running at 600 flow

I don't recommend it to people

[scenic moon]

Yeah okay - I'll try above! Now I have to redo 80 refineries 🙁

Output fine under?

[vapid gorge]

sure but you might have an issue when it comes up.

and you shouldn't need to change much just by having hte loop above the surface at least

[vapid gorge]

you could also try having 2 completely independent 300 flow pipes feeding from below first. See if that works.

flood the system after you've made the changes

I wouldn't bet on it working but it would be very little work to try

build the 300 flow pipes like this and it'll very likely work

but again, I don't recommend bottom feeding. It's fiddly. I do it but I've got a lot of practice trouble shooting things

[scenic moon]

Hmm very interesting looking, I haven't given myself much space under. so I will try the 600 above first then if that doesn't work I'll try the 300s. That way I dont have to rip up the entire floor as well ahha

Actually i'll just rip up the floor, it's all blueprints anyway

[visual yarrow]

Actually, quick question about the whole "pipe from underneath" thing.

Based on what I heard from McGalleon, it has to do with the pipe connection... direction, or something? Basically, what i'm getting at is, if I put a length of horizontal, level pipe between the machine and the downwards pipe, would that prevent issues, assuming I let the system saturate first?

I ask because I have been finding recently that that particular "rule" has been limiting my options when routing stuff.

[vapid gorge]

I'd have to see what you mean.

but you might be mixing stuff up with VIP things and junction directions?

[visual yarrow]

Definitely not that. Let me just do a quick mockup.

Sorry for the haphazardness. I am building a railway.

[vapid gorge]

oh ok I see what you mean. No I don't believe this would be a reliable fix to bottom feeding

[visual yarrow]

Hmm. In that case, what exactly is the point at which fluids that need to travel upwards stop having the issue?

[vapid gorge]

So a lot of hte issues with regular manifolds is that fluids will flow backwards from a junction whenever a gap is made
this is made worse by a number of factors

and gravity being a big factor will make it worse and still impact it from the bit that is going down

It's the same issue you normally get from pipe manifolds, but worse cause gravity

[visual yarrow]

Oh, wait, manifolds? Would that mean that direct connections or split/balancer-style pipelines would be OK?

[vapid gorge]

direct connection bottom feeding? usually works like a charm

if you're direct feeding a fluid pipe you can do nearly anything you want to it and it'll probably work

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, it's a shame there's nothing that consumes 600/m of crude oi- actually... wait.

[vapid gorge]

Most people don't build that way though so I don't really tend to bring that up

you can do nuclear gens like that pretty well yes

one of hte reasons it's great to put your nuclear gens above water

[visual yarrow]

Ah, dang, oil diamonds are a base of 200/m.

Yeah, I have done nuclear generators with bottom feeding like that before.

[vapid gorge]

you get teh same effect with water as with crude

[visual yarrow]

I don't trust them to run at 600/m water though.

[vapid gorge]

my observations of crude/fresh water suggests they're also more stable. Probably because the extractors have larger buffers

[vapid gorge]

it works pretty well. I heard there was a small fluid bug a few months back though with it? I think it got fixed

[visual yarrow]

I think that's moreso because the rate of extraction is more constant?

Like, most recipes that produce fluids do so in batches.

[vapid gorge]

SO an interesting thing I found

I was using a modded water extractor that was outputing 3000 fluid pm

5 outputs xD

[visual yarrow]

Ah, that would... explain some things.

[vapid gorge]

but the extractor itself still only had a 200 (?) fluid buffer internally.

and in a number of situations I found I needed to use a big fluid buffer to help stabalise the damn thing

and I mean a big one, had many inputs/outputs

[visual yarrow]

Hmm. I wonder... would fluid buffers with multiple ports solve the whole "i don't want to use 600/m oil pipes" issue?

...Probably not, unless one of the ports was input only.

[vapid gorge]

in what way? like having 300pm out of a buffer?

because generally extracting 600 oil pm is very stable. Often don't even need a loop

[visual yarrow]

I've... had many bad experiences with it in the past.

[vapid gorge]

you do learn how to lay them out cleanly.

[visual yarrow]

At some point I just stopped fully overclocking pure oil nodes.

[vapid gorge]

at worst, I have used a loop at different times on it

[visual yarrow]

Believe me- i've tried countless things.

[vapid gorge]

really? that's a shame. I'm sure there would have been some easy tweaks

eh, if you ever feel the need again give me a shout

I'm sure I can help you sort it out

[visual yarrow]

It would sometimes work for a bit but at some point the extractor would just not be able to run 100% of the time, because oil was not getting to consumers.

But this was like. Years ago, too. I've not trusted running pipes at full capacity for a looooong time.

[vapid gorge]

So there are things that are not super reliable with pipes. And some people claim they always have 100% success rates with them. Even giving them the benefit of hte doubt they aren't missing a stutter, I have to assume they have a particular habit of buildign things in a certain order and certain way that helps them

it could just be you have an odd little habbit that's making it a bit tougher

[vapid gorge]

I mean there was the fluid deletion bug back then

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, I was so glad when that was fixed.

Lets me do Instant Scrap and make the acid purely from byproduct water, among other things.

[visual yarrow]

Honestly, this is entirely possible, but I don't find it very plausible given how inconsistent the problems would always be in terms of how they manifested, and the amount of time I spent reworking pipe systems that weren't working.

Remember that I build those belt flow regulators just to make outputs evenly spaced. I would get super obsessive compulsive over those flow rate issues.

[vapid gorge]

ime patched systems are.. not great. You tend to lose track of everything.

[visual yarrow]

I wouldn't say they were patched. There was a whole lot of just starting over.

[vapid gorge]

xD

[visual yarrow]

I've also just had other.... weird things happen with pipes that i've never had a good explanation for. Like, I was working on an aluminum refinery setup, where one of the VIP junctions I was using would just... not work, sometimes, usually when I was away from the area.

[vapid gorge]

That's what yo uget for playing with black magic 😛

j/k. They are weird though

I've never really trusted them

[visual yarrow]

It was identical to the other ones nearby that also worked. I could never figure it out- I actually had to just package and sink the water at some point because it would not stay working

[vapid gorge]

well there are those things about the direction of the junction and the number of actual pipe segments used. It's very difficult to get completely identical systems. Sometimes order of operation matters too.

It's the main reason I don't like those systems

[visual yarrow]

Actually, similar issue happened with a quartz purification setup. Exactly one of the blenders would back up, despite all four being identical.

[vapid gorge]

I'd have to see to really comment 🙂 It's always possible how you were doing it was pushing some limits and worked as edge cases

There's lots of ways you can push pipes to make work. A lot of them though have varying degrees of replicability

[visual yarrow]

I actually have a picture hidden away of it, but it probably won't provide much info.

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah I don't trust those valve/buffer waste systems at ALL

[visual yarrow]

I know the valve on the left is limited. That was just an attempt to do something different to see if it worked.

(It worked until it suddenly decided to not work.)

[vapid gorge]

they became a short fad after this one ass made a video of them. Had so many people come in with problems

I'd rate VIPs as more reliab

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, I tried a VIP here, too.

It was always this one blender.

[vapid gorge]

maybe you had too many/not enough pipe segments? xD

[visual yarrow]

For the record, the design in the image was just something I came up with on my own based on desperation and a vague understanding of fluid mechanics

[vapid gorge]

oh right. Some jack ass made something very similar for bauxite. Put it on youtube. And cause a ton of people crying about their pipes to come here

[visual yarrow]

I think I just concluded that that particular blender was haunted at some point.

[vapid gorge]

I mean I assume the very similar video one worked for that guy too. I don't know how many times. But I doubt they were such a terrible person that they'd post it knowing it only worked half the time

[visual yarrow]

On this most recent save, despite how it made me feel sad, I set up my bauxite refinement to turn the byproduct water into concrete.

It actually stopped making me feel sad once I remembered that having a stable supply of concrete is really useful when you build a lot of foundation, and I don't actually understand why I didn't think of that immediately when I made it.

[vapid gorge]

You realise sending it to wet concrete is just another way to keep the fresh and waste split right 😛

[random creek]

The vip junction is vulnerable if the line fails if I remember right.

[visual yarrow]

Yes? I'm not sure what you're saying, here.

[vapid gorge]

f

solution machiens running on fresh and waste. Just not connected

the main reason I recommend it to people is that if it doesn't work it's almost certainly human error

[visual yarrow]

To rephrase: I would prefer to recycle water and recycle it into the inputs, but time has taught me that trying to do that is not... consistently reliable.

[vapid gorge]

this method is rock solid. Basically unbreakable

And you can use it with some nuclear chain parts, and dark matter residue

[visual yarrow]

I mean, you're basically describing the encased uranium cell acid method, aye?

[vapid gorge]

Possibly? there's a number of methods for it I'm sure

[visual yarrow]

Three running on outside acid, one running on the byproduct acid from all four.

[vapid gorge]

sounds about right. Extremely reliable

like I said, if it doesn't work it's almost guaranteed human error

misclocked something, forgot a connection, that sort of thing.

[visual yarrow]

I actually determined that I could do something similar with distillica if I used a specific amount of raw quartz to start with.

[vapid gorge]

yup that's my plan with distilica

contained units with some machines running only on waste

[visual yarrow]

Which I... think is one using outside water, four using the byproduct?

I keep confusing myself because my planner here is doubled up.

[vapid gorge]

By those numbers in the image that sounds right

I've only made vague plans to make a Supcomp factory with it. haven't pondered it that much

[visual yarrow]

But five blenders handles 1,200 raw quartz, so it lines up very nicely.

[vapid gorge]

yeah it just looks like a very fun recipe chain.
Almost makes up for getting rid of steel coated plate

[visual yarrow]

Mmm... I have mixed feelings on that.

[vapid gorge]

steel coated?

or that distilica is fun?

[visual yarrow]

The removal of steel coated.

[vapid gorge]

I get why. They wated iron coated to be used

But I just liked it so much.

iron plates are, arguably, the simplest most basic item to produce in the game

[visual yarrow]

It just kinda makes more sense to not have two iron plate producing recipes that use plastic, to me?

[vapid gorge]

and then they threw in this recipe that slapped around steel and probably a ton of oil recycling loops , just to get to iron plates xD

[visual yarrow]

Ehh. Iron rods. 1:1 ratio of input to output.

[vapid gorge]

see? arguably. The plates make up the basics for all your belts though. Used a lot more

[visual yarrow]

But anyways. I do like that they at least replaced it with an alternate that does things differently. Uses a foundry, iron + steel.

[vapid gorge]

... I'm still salty. It was such a silly and great recipe

should have nuked iron coated instead

[visual yarrow]

Ahhh, gotcha.

I did use iron coated in my modular frame factory feeding my HMF factory, actually.

[vapid gorge]

I had a bunch of refineries, making a ton of coke, and diluted fuel, and recycled plubber, Coke Steel.

just to make some iron plates

a shit load of iron plates mind you

[visual yarrow]

I've always liked using coated plates (of either kind) and adhered iron plates for RIPs

[vapid gorge]

see, never a huge fan of adhered.

just never spoke to me

bolted plate goes brrrrrr

[visual yarrow]

It's weird. It seems like the kind of recipe i'd normally hate.

But I really like it.

[vapid gorge]

fair 🙂

[visual yarrow]

What I don't like is stitched iron plates. Blrrgh.

[vapid gorge]

I've thoguht about it but just never seemed to fit quite right

orly? convenient early on

especially with iron wire. Makes logistics a bit easier

[visual yarrow]

Not a fan of iron wire either, honestly.

[vapid gorge]

workds out basically teh same but you can have larger chunks of machinery as the wire is needed in less amounts?

really? thats interesting. Just such a versatile recipe

[visual yarrow]

My logic is that there's not really much point in trying to use iron over copper at a point in the game when copper has no other use.

[vapid gorge]

ah, I've sucked areas dry for copper sheets and copper powder

[visual yarrow]

Actually, stitched iron plate, in hindsight, isn't that bad.

[vapid gorge]

and it lets you build in spots that doesn't have copper

[visual yarrow]

Iron wire's just not my cup of tea. Mostly because it's one of those recipes with weird input and output amounts.

One thing that bothers me juuust a bit about bolted iron plates.....

So if paired with bolted frames, IF bolted frames consumed RIPs at the same rate bolted plates produce them- it would end up consuming 390 screws/m at normal clock speeds.

And that's one of the magic steel screw numbers.

[vapid gorge]

magic as in its very convenient for steel screws?

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, it's 150% clock speed.

[vapid gorge]

Oh I just thought cause it was a huge number of screws 😄

[visual yarrow]

I suppose you COULD do something with that if you split off half of the RIPs from each bolted iron plate assembler...

But I can't.. really think of much else RIPs are needed for in bulk?

[vapid gorge]

I mean I'm sure you've seen my bolted frame/plate combo https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1393068256214122637/1393093916668198922/image.png?ex=68c1ae10&is=68c05c90&hm=a405943d6ea129828e0e493bf7106e93a7386d0520b1ad62727345cd5496bb19&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

very convenient

I'm going to have to mod steel coated plates back in to resurrect my baby

[visual yarrow]

Yeaaaah, my modular frame production tends to be more... like this.

[vapid gorge]

nice set up 😄

I just got really into making a sushi balanced modular set up for frames.

and came up with that unit

[visual yarrow]

Incidentally, I discovered that ceiling lights no longer had such restrictive clearance while making these.

[vapid gorge]

you couldn't soft clip them before? I never really used them much

[visual yarrow]

Not with each other. And they had an unusually large hitbox compared to their actual size.

[vapid gorge]

HUH did not know that

[visual yarrow]

Oh, I forgot- I do have one thing I like iron wire for- insulated cable.

[vapid gorge]

I did a massive set up that needed 36k cable pm.

Iron alloy to insulated cable

[visual yarrow]

Thing is, I frequently find that I don't actually need that much cable for things?

[vapid gorge]

you can avoid it prett yeasily yeah

but I was makign a ton of Directive systems

[visual yarrow]

Like, i'm looking at the list of things cable is made into: crystal oscillators, computers, high-speed connectors, and automated wiring.

With the exception of automated wiring, every single one of those recipes is one of those "defaults that you kinda want to avoid because it uses too much of a certain resource"

And even then, while computers are debatable, they also use like... 20/m?

[vapid gorge]

yup xD and I'll use crystal or caterium recipes often

[visual yarrow]

Automated wiring is really the big sink for 'em.

[vapid gorge]

but I'll be making another big set up at some point that uses lots of cable.

then I'll use Copper Alloy + Tempered Caterium -> fused wire > insulated cable

jsut to use the 3 ores

[visual yarrow]

Main reason I like iron wire for insulated cable is because they just so happen to produce and consume 9 wire each.

[vapid gorge]

xD

[visual yarrow]

Fused wire produces 30, but the per minute value still lines up.

Honestly, regular caterium wire isn't terrible, either.

The fact that you can produce half a MK6 belt of wire with one constructor at 250% and one sloop is interesting.

[vapid gorge]

oh it's not. Caterium wire is solid.

[visual yarrow]

...Of course, no mention of cable is complete without me mentioning my utter hatred of quickwire cable.

[vapid gorge]

why the hate?

is caterium wire to cable more efficient?

[visual yarrow]

It kind of became an in joke for the sake of itself, frankly.

But it essentially hits all of the wrong notes for me.

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah still uses rubber

[visual yarrow]

It's got a slower production rate than the default, constructor using recipe.

It produces 11 per batch

[vapid gorge]

... so? xD

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It's a prime number, doesn't lend itself well to matching ratios.

I haven't done the math on how it is in terms of resource efficiency, but for the metal, it's close if not worse.

[vapid gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/whisper-whisper-in-ear-gif-1173647009616547334

clocking

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It honestly tends to actually end up going over the decimal place limit.

[vapid gorge]

that's fine, jsut round up the 4th decimal.

every 10,000 hours you might get a stutter

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I could handle that if it weren't for all the other reasons.

But yeah. It's like... insulated cable is right there. Wire vs quickwire is..... I mean, regular wire is more flexible to make, since you can use iron, or even only caterium.