math-and-meta

[unique cypress]

true

[crimson moat]

yeah actually i take that back, they are very heavy on copper/alum and use a significant amount of SAM

[unique cypress]

yeah, dmr for the ikea lamps is a bigger issue

[crimson moat]

but i feel like the singularity cell part is kind of tolerable

[unique cypress]

it's a lot of copper, but copper is cheap

SAM and bauxite aren't

[crimson moat]

and good sloop multiplier on copper powder

[unique cypress]

and most of the alu goes into ficsite

[crimson moat]

SAM breaks first (mostly because of ficsite ingots) but the DMR for ficsonium accelerators is also a heavy cost (double that of the SAM cost in singularity cells)

[unique cypress]

double? quadruple

[unique cypress]

^

you can loop it back into DMCs too 🤷‍♂️

[crimson moat]

yeah i suppose that is equally valid nvm

[unique cypress]

if you consider all DMR from both the rods and the SAM as one supply, 4x goes to ikea lamps as to sing cells

[crimson moat]

200 uranium waste = 1 plut rod
2 plut waste = 1 fics rod

so it's kinda arbitrary 😛

feels like somebody could have fatfingered a zero and we wouldn't be having this discussion

[unique cypress]

actually, now that I think about it, another issue is that the endgame doesn't require nearly enough power to warrant setting up nuclear in the first place

[crimson moat]

kinda, but complex power plans can be a fun project

[unique cypress]

buff plutonium 2x, ficsonium 10x, increase power consumption in phase 4 and 5 by like 2-4x and nuclear makes sense again

[crimson moat]

what you "should" do is that instant rocket fuel or w/e for 100gw in the current game, and just move on because it's plenty of power and takes 10% of the time to do

[unique cypress]

you could get by on regular-ass fuel from tier 5 if you really wanted.

and it's not like it would take that much extra effort compared to rocket

double, at most

[crimson moat]

6 refineries, 12 blenders and a few sinks + power shards = 100gw

in several places you dont even have to import anyresources

[unique cypress]

meanwhile, 100GW from fuel

[crimson moat]

yeah just a lot of machines and pipes by comparison

i think it would be quicker to prog to p4 on 10gw and then make 100 that way

[unique cypress]

but at least fewer resources to collect

but 3k oil is kinda difficult to find all in one place iirc

so if you really want 100 GW, it might not be a great idea

80 GW might be possible in one spot

or just do 2 power plants

[crimson moat]

speedrun: blue crater 100gw

3 mins? 5? 10? 😄

[unique cypress]

and 100 GW of waste-free nuclear 🤣

nope, even at 4x augment, SF Optimizer still chooses rocket fuel to make power

[crimson moat]

someone played with optimiser a bit ago and it was in the 14tw power setups IIRC 😛

They spam augmentors and feed most of them with the thing to make it +30%

[unique cypress]

that was probably me lol

250 GW from ionized and 2.5 TW from rocket

and 1.35 TW from uranium

all multiplied by 3.7x (from 9 matrixed augmenters)

and you get 15.2 TW

if you allow uranium and plutonium waste, it's almost 19 TW

then it's 1.6 TW from uranium, 2.1 TW from plutonium, 150 GW from coal of all things, and 1.7 TW from rocket
and 8 augmenters

no ionized, no ficsonium. go figure
no ficsonium in either

[crimson moat]

yeah it needs some change, being super complex but then mathing out to worse than the simpler/easier/earlier options. The same resources build more of those things, easier, earlier. Something has to give.

hopefully one that doesn't brick my 200hr powerplant 😄

[unique cypress]

I'm hoping they announce something before I get to building my ficsonium power plant

I made a mod to make it make sense, but I'll absolutely take the dev's solution if it's good

[dusky dust]

I'd be pretty shocked if they changed anything related to actual production lines anymore

[unique cypress]

Same, but imo they completely botched the balance of tier 9. Is it worse to change it or let it be trash forever?

Also, while satisfactory technically isn't in early access anymore, 1.1 totally got the early access treatment. Most buggy experimental I experienced, released to stable with some bugs still left
Hiding behind not being early access anymore doesn't really work when they pull stunts like that

[dusky dust]

Matter of opinion, though. IMO the tier 9 balance is great

Bagginess is beside the point; it's backwards factory compatibility which I don't think they're going to be willing to break, post-1.0

(I'm honestly not saying that re: tier 9 to be contrarian about it; I legit think it's great. I know you and I disagree on that point)

[crimson moat]

Only around 0.5% of players are making ficsonium, and every single one of them that i know (plus more looking in from the sidelines) wants it to be changed to be not stupidly underpowered

[wind spade]

not sure where you got those stats from

[crimson moat]

something like rods take double plutonium waste and burn for twice as long would be quite non destructive

[wind spade]

I know of many people who said ficsonium was fine and doesn't need changing

I think the only "buff" I'd say is reasonable would be disallowing sinking of pu fuel rods

[crimson moat]

not allowed to post strawpoll so reacts i guess

Do you want Ficsonium to be buffed?

👍🏻 for yes

👎🏻 for no

[wind spade]

kinda unfair that I can't react

[kindred carbon]

Yes, 4x the MJ to 500k

[proven prawn]

I can't react either, its rigged👀

[kindred carbon]

It’s ridiculous how they made rocket fuel so much better than the ultra late game stuff

[proven prawn]

That's odd maybe this person blocked me for some reason hmmm

[kindred carbon]

? Is it because it’s a white one

[crimson moat]

For context, the reason i would say unambiguously yes is because ficsonium generates less power than other power sources, both wasteless and with waste, despite unlocking later | being more complex | being more expensive. Therefore it has a bunch of downsides without actually being better at anything.

For wasteless it's more power to use the SAM on converting to uranium instead, and sinking plutonium rods.

With waste it's more power, lower complexity and lower tech to instead make more uranium+plutonium with those resources.

[wind spade]

what a way to run a poll, block all that disagree with your opinion 😄

[proven prawn]

Normally you can't react if the person has you blocked but I honestly dont know, its odd

[quick gorge]

Ngl I'm kinda amused to see Aeryn has Greeny and Slech blocked, I get it... but I find weird shit funny

[proven prawn]

Well idk what to say, does this person have us all blocked👀

[kindred carbon]

Plus you’re literally making it from singularly cells, like bro why did they not make it so broken?

[wind spade]

I think "disallow sinking of PU waste" is a much better and balanced solution

[kindred carbon]

I hope they don’t take my criticism and decide to nerf rocket fuel to the ground lol

[unique cypress]

"balanced"

[wind spade]

yes, balanced. You have to pay for your wasteless solution

[unique cypress]

If it came with appropriate buffs, sure

[wind spade]

the whole point of ficsonium is to be the "wasteless" solution, not to make tons of power

[quick gorge]

We tried to milk more power out of the thing but, well the creator is still there

[kindred carbon]

Can you see his msgs?

[proven prawn]

Oh well it's not like reacting to a poll will change anything, still its odd that im blocked, well best not to think to much into it

[wind spade]

yeah, because it's only one-way block

[unique cypress]

Have you got some secret info from the Devs or just making shit up to suit your narrative?

[wind spade]

would be 3:3 now, instead of 3:1 🤷

[proven prawn]

Yes but it can't react, which means im blocked, but i honestly know as much as you

[kindred carbon]

Pretty weird block function

[wind spade]

I could ask the same for "why do you think ficsonium is for power"

[proven prawn]

Discord has always worked that way, that's how I know in this case im blocked, why that is I couldn't tell you

[wind spade]

and afaik in one of the videos/streams they said practically that, something along the lines of "ficsonium is expensive but allows you to get rid of waste completely"

[proven prawn]

But for whatever reason this person doesnt want to interact with me, its odd but maybe some history here i dont remember hmmm

Oh well my memory is turning up nothing

[unique cypress]

Well, it currently doesn't make sense for power or waste disposal compared to just sinking plutonium. And if you disallow sinking plutonium, the comparison will be rocket fuel instead. It still doesn't make sense to put effort into it if you just want power.

[crimson moat]

You can get rid of waste completely while generating more power with less complexity by sinking plutonium rods, so yeah that is a pretty severe contradiction if that's the plan

[kindred carbon]

I can get rid of waste by spamming a bp that can store 1.5m plutonium waste in a secluded area of the map

[cerulean stratus]

man I have so little time now.
I need someone to make me a blueprint about logic gates

[kindred carbon]

Just 100 of these blueprints can give me 3 years of playtime btw

[quick gorge]

Maybe I just want the challenge of making the funny IKEA lamp

[wind spade]

I've been blocked for so many weird reasons that I no longer care about them. Last time I asked somebody, it turned out the reason was "a single message 3 years back took out of context and wrongly understood, so now they think that I'm changing opinions all the time because my messages were conflicting with their understanding of that single out-of-context message from three years back" 😄

[unique cypress]

Would it hurt your challenge if it was an actually good power source?

[crimson moat]

you have 3000 containers in 1 blueprint?

[wind spade]

rocket fuel is insane refinery and gen spam

no comparison in my book

[crimson moat]

i probably fucked up an order of magnitude there

[quick gorge]

By the time I'm done with the challenge.
I'm done with the save... so the power means nothing to me

[kindred carbon]

6348500 is 1.5 something million

[proven prawn]

Yeah I figure that's what's happening for me to, best to not think about it too much, and it won't have the person magically unblock us either way

[kindred carbon]

63x48x500=1,512,000

[cerulean stratus]

here's a challenge for you guys, mk1 belts only

[unique cypress]

Exactly. You don't care. But I get severely demotivated knowing that I could achieve the same power output much easier, cheaper, and with earlier tech.

Because of that, I still haven't made Ficsonium, despite putting in 300h since 1.0 released. I restarted for 1.1 because I made a mod to make tier 9 more enjoyable. Because all 3 T9 vanilla power sources are just shit

[crimson moat]

that's 126 hours though for 200 waste per min.

3 years is 26,280 hours

so 12,600 containers

[proven prawn]

I haven't either, FFRs are to expensive

I am disappointed by t9 power options but I can only use modded recipes to work around that

[kindred carbon]

200 bps isn’t that bad if you got uploaders that are fast enough

[unique cypress]

So far, I still haven't heard from anyone that they like Ficsonium and Ionized Fuel as they are and any buffs to them would make them worse

Other than breaking existing factories, I don't see any reason why buffing them would be detrimental

[crimson moat]

ye just a lot of storage things, belts etc

[kindred carbon]

Yea you need 1200 beams and pipes to build a 63 ISC bp

Can’t do it with uploaders

[crimson moat]

getting a quarter million beams and pipes is no trivial matter 😄

that's "build in p3 and come back 100 hrs later" quantities

[kindred carbon]

I’ve done a 100k wire power storage systems so it’s not that bad

[crimson moat]

yeah i've done similar

[kindred carbon]

250k beams and pipes is just 10 hours or so of a medium factory for both

[crimson moat]

416 beams per min is rather large

[proven prawn]

I actually was going to give it a yes react, but since im blocked they get nothing from me

[kindred carbon]

Yea but with aluminum beams it’s pretty easy

[quick gorge]

Yeah I'm not going to be contrition on liking Ficsonium.
I like it for it's lore implications, not how it functions as a gameplay factor and that is what this channel is for.
I'm doing it because I'm making a lore build and I'm going to enjoy the process... after the headaches of actually building it. Going to record it and have a creative outlet.
The IKEA lamp is most likely a quasi-star/blackhole that burns out and leaves nothing behind. So yeah I fucking hate it from a gameplay perspective and if I wasn't doing vanilla I'd grab your mod to make em better :D

[unique cypress]

I literally spent days, weeks learning to mod and actually making a mod to make T9 more like I think it should've been. I've never had anywhere near this much motivation to fix something I disagree with in a game. I think this speaks volumes on what I think about it

[quick gorge]

-# thanks McGalleon btw

[kindred carbon]

There is an achievement for it right?

[quick gorge]

no...

[unique cypress]

The mod doesn't make them easier, oh no no. It makes them cheaper in SAM, Bauxite, Coal and a few other things. Even with it, and a 2x power output increase (that isn't included in the mod), I still don't think it's worth the effort and resources compared to rocket fuel. But to do that, I'd have to make it even cheaper, and at that point my alt recipes would become nearly objectively better than defaults and that wasn't the goal

[proven prawn]

Cool if you fix it share the mod because I agree

[unique cypress]

It's in my bio

Soon I'll also upload 3 more mods that I'm currently using but didn't have the time to upload yet:
The 2x power for Ficsonium Rods
3x power for Ionized fuel and a slight buff the to dark ion alt
Ficsite ingots from steel and copper (so ficsite can be made from all ingots) (I still have to rebalance that one)

[kindred carbon]

100 iron ingot to 5 ficsit

[unique cypress]

Ficsite from iron is already a thing

[crimson moat]

the problem with most resources for ficsite is that it takes too much more SAM and that hurts more than cheaper resources help

[proven prawn]

Cool, also yes ionized fuel needs buff because its even worse than FFRs

And actually results in negative power gains if you try to use it for power...

[quick gorge]

The details in my T9 builds reflect the thing they are making so dark matter energy equations for the SAM fluctuators.. along with the much easier to write E=mc²
So the idea of putting the details for a star blackhole thing is appealing
Legit the main reason I'm doing both Nuclear and fueled APA over any ionized fuel (for power)

[unique cypress]

Not with the other alts from my mod
The bauxite/aluminium actually became a biger issue
Hence a steel and copper alt. Will be useful to me, will probably be useful for someone, and I think it makes sense to be able to make it from all metal ingots
Would've actually just used the iron recipe if it wasn't for that last reason

[proven prawn]

Anyways I'll check out your mods, because t9 base recipes for FFRs and ionized fuel is just bad

[quick gorge]

I've even asked people to make fake quantum equations to explain how sloops work... no result :)

[proven prawn]

Lol

Isnt the in-game explanation something about harvesting energy from local space time?

[quick gorge]

Yeah but trying to put that into something like this ΩDM h² = ρDM /ρc
or

Doesn't seem to work too well

[unique cypress]

As someone who has taken a quantum mechanics class... fuck no. Real equations are enough of a headache

[quick gorge]

And I want to have one that explains how the APA works along with the Power Matrices to bring the power up to +30% and how that would actually work on a quantum level, in the mean time I have these in the APM build

My https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/932761153703149659 is https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/932761153703149659 🙃

[proven prawn]

Just ask someone that has a PhD, they might be able to come up with something 👀

[quick gorge]

Hey KYO wanna come up with something? hoyhoy

I could just unironically ask the dev/psychopath who had to figure this shit out to begin with

[proven prawn]

Its a game they just made this all up

[quick gorge]

I believe

[quick gorge]

If I end up out quantum nerding the actual devs I'll take that as a W

[proven prawn]

If you do CSS should hire you as official lore expert

[quick gorge]

That's Hanhan's job

[quick gorge]

Plus McGalleon come up with the quasi-star/blackhole thing so

[proven prawn]

No they put in all of the floating objects, unless that's lore to👀

[quick gorge]

She's the world builder... and the world builder

[proven prawn]

I want to hear the deep lore about the floating grass

[quick gorge]

The planet is alive and the grass is billions of trillions of individual fingers reaching out hoping someone notices

The intrusive thoughts wanted to type "Hoping for someone who cared about this conversation"
But I'm a good pioneer and we ignore those mean thoughts :)

Seeing as it's funny I typed it anyway

[proven prawn]

Deepen

[oblique hollow]

ya still havent included this somewhere

or the simple form...

[dreamy umbra]

i care,bring out the nukes

[quick gorge]

That will likely be going on the APA itself

[oblique hollow]

if you rearrange it some more, the simple for can become
P = 50 x (100 + n + 3m) (P0 / 500 + n + m)

[unique cypress]

It's 10 + n + 3m in the first parentheses but yes

[oblique hollow]

ah yes, 10 not 100

[heady vine]

What am i looking at

[oblique hollow]

power output of APAs

n is amout of normal APAs; m is fuel APAs

P is power out and P0 is base power

i tested it, the equation is accurate

[unique cypress]

well, the devs gave us the equation. these are just simplifications (and "simplifications")

[dense solstice]

so do fluid manifolds just not function properly or are they just incredibly slow to get started?

[unique cypress]

depends how you built it and how many machines are connected

generally they work, but some specific setups might not

[crimson moat]

fluid manifolds generally derate pipes significantly due to backflow

[dense solstice]

y'know I really do wish I ask questions before placing 350 refineries xd

[opaque quartz]

Are all of them hooked up to a single manifold?

[dense solstice]

nah like 6 seperate manifolds, I atleast did a little bit of math to make sure the water per minute needed didn't exceed 600

[crimson moat]

yeah do it again but with 400

[unique cypress]

Nah, just put the main pipe above the refinery inputs and you can pretty much always do 600

[dense solstice]

I can't tell if the design is good or should have me put into a psychward

[unique cypress]

The manifolds themselves are fine. But the way you connected them is... questionable

Do not ever make fluid go up at a split

Or at least if you're trying to get close to pipe limits

[dense solstice]

it's flowing down if that's what you mean

[crimson moat]

you can maybe do more, but that's exactly the issue - it's not well explored or documented so we don't know exactly how much more or how universal it is; we only know that it doesn't solve the problem. It probably mitigates it at least sometimes. A lot of different approaches do that, and some of them work better than others or combine with each other in good or bad ways which can be confusing and uncertain.

The root cause is flow rate excess and the most direct way to fix that is to flow less. To that end i've yet to see 400 ever fail, so it's an easy fix to communicate.

[dense solstice]

I suppose I can't really argue with that, it's just that "do it again" isn't particularly high on the list of truths I want to accept on a sunday afternoon xd

[crimson moat]

It's pretty easy to basically just split a 600 pipe right before a manifold into a pair of 300/600's and connect those

[unique cypress]

First I'd suggest checking your math. I do not see anything immediately obviously wrong here

And identify where the issue is exactly

[dense solstice]

well I need about 3351 water a minute total, so I decided to go for around 3600 to me safe, I think the problem could also lie with the drone throughput for the packaged water, it's either gonna be that or the pipes just not being able to fw the sheer amount of manifolding like Aeryn suggested.

I suppose I'll see if I can't add a drone or 2 and if that doesn't fix it redo my piping.

[unique cypress]

Bro just identify what the issue is exactly instead of guessing

[amber umbra]

Sounds like a lot going on in the build. Troubleshooting seems difficult.

[crimson moat]

Pretty easy to look at packagers and see if they're running at 100%. If not, are they stalled full or stalled empty?

[unique cypress]

Finding where the issue is is always easy. Identifying what it is and fixing it is the difficult part

[crimson moat]

most of what makes builds good i think is being obvious and easy to troubleshoot in design

[cerulean stratus]

Hey, what's a good location with caterium, copper and quartz?

[unique cypress]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map

[cerulean stratus]

Well, I guess there's some good places

Also, is it me or oil is very versatile

You can use it for electronics, steel, better normal recipes

Power

[oblique hollow]

yes oil is versatile. Like in real life

[meager grove]

oh hey it's mcgalleon

you just updated repan!

I was wondering when that was gonna get updated

thanks for your work!

[oblique hollow]

Have fun! Still waiting for FexPan dependancies to get updated unfortunately....

[bitter grail]

What’s repan? 👀

[oblique hollow]

a mod

[quick gorge]

:PraiseMcG:

[last quail]

Sounds like a dumb question but when designing my factory should I separate it into sections? or should I just build it all as one?

[meager grove]

that mod looks like so much fun, so I can't wait

[neon yarrow]

I find it easier to build different facilities for different parts. I have a starter factory that has all the base iron, copper and concrete that you need at the start. And I have that storage piped into a dimensional depot. As I go into the higher tiers, I have entirely different buildings for things like modular frames and motors and whatnot. When you need to move items from far away areas of the map, that's where trains come in handy.

[tropic hawk]

depends on your use case. some people find it simpler to build it all in one place, some people find it better to build seperated facilities. hard to advise you not knowing more info.

[amber umbra]

Main upsides of smaller, compartmentalized production lines is easier designing, easier troubleshooting. Downside is often needing additional logistics connections to link those factories.

[meager grove]

help me #math-and-meta

I want to set up a modular frame production at a relatively low capacity (a little under 10 per minute)

using iron wire, stitched iron plates, cast bolts and bolted frames

I think.

if I'm not completely wrong

there is a specific amount I can underclock stuff to get an exact ratio from these alt recipes using exactly 120" iron ingots

[last quail]

Basically it's to expand my starter factory, I'm coming into steal and my production rate of most items is ass due to efficiency constraints I created but now that it's time to expand for bigger and better horizons I want to ensure I can produce most of what I need inside of a nice taken care of factory ready to hold me up until I can do bigger and better projects

[meager grove]

theoretically I could double it to a little under 20" modular frames by using 240" iron ingots

and just increase the amount of machines

but I need help figuring out the exact ratio

and what over- or underclock to set everything to

[unique cypress]

you'll be able to make more with default frame instead. both bolted recipes are expensive

[meager grove]

so I should make rods instead of screws?

even with cast screws?

[unique cypress]

cast screws aren't any cheaper

[meager grove]

oh yeah you're right

it's still a 1:4 conversion from ingot to screw

[unique cypress]

the ratios from exactly 120 iron/min don't work out particularly well lol

[meager grove]

I'd need to either have twice as many modular frame assemblers or overclock them all to 250% though

[unique cypress]

multiples of 343rd of a machine

I would just not care about clocking them exactly

[meager grove]

hence overclocking...

I'd rather. avoid just overfilling manifolds

[unique cypress]

clocking doesn't really help you with 343rds

[meager grove]

1.343?

[unique cypress]

no, multiples of 1/343

[meager grove]

o

huh

thing is

if I were to use exactly 70 ingots for iron bolts and plates and the previous steps making bolted frames

I'd have to use 55,(5) ingots for iron wire

which, obviously

doesn't work out to 120

I know there is a mathematical must for the two to meet

[unique cypress]

bolted frames have 1/1805 in there

that's why I always tell people to give up on exact clocking

there are no benefits anyway

just round everything up

[meager grove]

well, from what I can find

theoretically if I dial every over- and underclock byy...

...this ridiculously long number that is equal to 108/113

(it's most likely not complete)

[unique cypress]

clocking is only accurate to 4 decimal places

[meager grove]

then it should work out perfectly with 120" iron ingots

it's better than not trying anything, right?

[unique cypress]

it's more work for not benefits so by my count it's worse

[meager grove]

the biggest issue with using the normal modular frame recipe

is the fact I'd need, well-

even with a slight overclock, a good 2 more machines

oh sorry

4 more

or wait no 2 more, yeah, I'm going for 10" modular frames

[unique cypress]

from 120 iron you can only make 6ish/min

[meager grove]

whuh?

theoretically with 125,(5)" iron ingots

I can make 10" modular frames

which means

I could make 9,55..." modular frames

with just 120" ingots

[unique cypress]

if you have pure iron, sure

[meager grove]

no I'm talking ingots

not ore, ingots

[unique cypress]

without it for 10 frames/min you need at least 190.(5)

[meager grove]

wait no I'm

you're right yeah I forgot about the 75" iron ingots for 50" iron plates for stitched iron plates

[unique cypress]

cheapest possible frames from just iron

[meager grove]

..that's

exactly what I was trying to do

or

wait no I'm wrong, no, I used screws instead of bolts

satisfactory calculator suggested some crazy setup with bolted plates and bolted frames in the same chain

with some rather concerning ratios

[unique cypress]

that's because satisfactory calculator is a garbage calculator

that ss is from satisfactory tools

[meager grove]

the main reason I tried to use stitched plates tbh is because they use much less iron plates (comparatively to the amount of reinforced iron plates)

bolted iron plates are just.

a more compact version that costs way more screws

[wind spade]

well... a bit more

like 4.333 screw per plate

[unique cypress]

40% more

[meager grove]

yeah that's quite a bit

but it basically cuts the amount of assemblers by 3

[unique cypress]

well, 38.(8)

[meager grove]

since the iron plate to reinforced iron plate ratio stays the same - 6 to 1

[unique cypress]

but instead you need 40% more screw constructors, and more smelters

[meager grove]

true

but, again, cast screws

[unique cypress]

and that's comparing devault vs bolted plate

stitched takes even less machines than default

[meager grove]

true

but stitched needs wire

and at veeeeery weird ratios

that only start working out once you get into very high numbers

like, the first time the amount of iron plates becomes cohesive is at 4 normal speed stitched iron plate assemblers

and it's still 75

which is 112,5 iron ingots per minute with the standard recipe

which will probably, eventually, make my blood boil

[unique cypress]

and like I keep saying, just ignore the ratios lol

[meager grove]

using overflow manifolds will make me go absolutely crazy though

[unique cypress]

tf is an overflow manifold

[meager grove]

mostly in a visual sense, and the fact that everything will be jittering

[unique cypress]

and?

[meager grove]

well. just a manifold, normally, but I got a mod - specifically to make manifolds as clean as possible, that gives me an adjustable ratio splitter

[unique cypress]

ew

why would you want that

[meager grove]

clean manifolds with no jitter.

[unique cypress]

just do a normal manifold

[meager grove]

that's why 😭

[unique cypress]

you're going to want to kill yourself when you get to later tiers lmao

if you have so many issues at just barely reinforced plates

[meager grove]

I mean. I did have a perfect efficiency 240" iron ore to 20" reinforced iron plates set up on my non-AGS save

[unique cypress]

that's 40% more iron than the minimum lol

[meager grove]

yeah but that was without any alts except cast screws

I only had cast screws, and it was 4 constructors

[unique cypress]

also why are you using the symbol for arcseconds?

[meager grove]

not- quite that

I've already explained it in detail once in #design-and-architecture but

I got tired of writing /min, and then pm every time I'm talking about minute rates, so I used what at times is used to denote minutes (mostly on stopwatches) - " - and used it by kind of inverting the unit

so instead of 120 ingots/min, it's 120min ingots

aka. 120" ingots

[unique cypress]

just skip the symbol entirely?

also minutes are '

[meager grove]

oh, they're '?

[unique cypress]

" is seconds

[meager grove]

whoops

[unique cypress]

or inches

[quick gorge]

Learning is funny sometimes :)

[meager grove]

well, that won't be an insane adjustment to make

just throwing them off feels like it won't. quite work

[unique cypress]

just skip it. all item measurements in this game are /min anyway

[meager grove]

idk

maybe this is just me being too pedantic about it

but oh well

[unique cypress]

if you were pedantic, you'd use /min everywhere

anything else is incorrect

[meager grove]

technically [amount]min [item] is the same as [amount] [item]/min, but regardless

[unique cypress]

it's not

[meager grove]

is it not though?

[unique cypress]

/min is min^-1

and min is min

completely different

[meager grove]

divide the amount*min

and the item

by min

and you get amount and item/min

[unique cypress]

by your logic, Hertz would be the same as seconds

[summer flare]

That should be Hertz btw.

[meager grove]

wouldn't that only be two parts of an equation?

a third is missing

60Hz for example, 60 t/s where t stands for times (aka. repeated action)

60s is just. 60s, there's no 'times' present

[unique cypress]

I studied physics for several years now. there's no point in arguing about units with me

1Hz = 1 s^-1

there's no t

[meager grove]

1 divided by seconds

and it's measuring how many times a thing happens in one second

it's how many times something happens per second

many (amount), something (the thing happening or in my earlier example times) and second

[unique cypress]

not second, inverse second

[meager grove]

well

that's equivalent to /s

[unique cypress]

just like item rates are in ivnerse minutes, not minutes

[meager grove]

t^-s is t/s

sorry

[unique cypress]

there's no t unit

[meager grove]

s^-1

I think my mechanical engineer(-ing student) brain is too small to properly deal with this

I'm gonna be honest I'm js trying to figure out my own way of thinking here

I think this is

probably leftovers from theoretical mechanics where if you see a unit, you can basically imagine it as just [amount]*[unit]

so 60m*N would be equivalent to 60*N/m

[unique cypress]

it's not

[meager grove]

since you divide by meters on both sides of the "equation"

[unique cypress]

never was

[quick gorge]

We all do think very differently and we are being forced to use a common language to try to convey things we mean but often gets lost in translation.

The moment we gain the ability to read each other's mind and what we actually mean would be a revelation.
In the mean times we're here suffering. Much love <3

[meager grove]

then

[unique cypress]

newton-meters and newtons per meter are completely different units

[meager grove]

how do you express 60m*N with m on the right side

[unique cypress]

60 Nm

[meager grove]

I know those are different

[meager grove]

well

...wait, yeah, no you're right actually

[unique cypress]

you just said they're equivalent

[meager grove]

since it's not. 60 meters times newton

it's 60 times meter times newton

it's only 11pm how is my brain already this fucked up

good god I'm gonna be hopeless during dynamics

actual

walnut-sized brain

in that skull of mine

[humble dirge]

is there a way to make a pipe only flow if the line its connected to isnt flowing at full speed
got some recycled water but some reason its not a perfect flow /min

[crimson moat]

not reliably

[unique cypress]

I found VIPs reliable enough

[crimson moat]

https://youtu.be/ZwO-F82sYE4?t=612

reliable enough until they stop working and nobody can explain why

[humble dirge]

recycling water my behated

current setup

[unique cypress]

I mean the easiest solution is not mixing the 2 sources of water

just have 2 separate groups of refineries using the water

[unique cypress]

mine always worked fine 🤷‍♂️

even with input and output disruptions

[crimson moat]

why didn't this one?

nobody has been able to give me an answer, and if you can't answer then i would argue that it's not reliable enough

[unique cypress]

it's not built in a way that I build VIPs

I've heard that some pipes need to have approximately the same length for it to work

so considering my VIP worked in this scenario, I can only say that this one is probably built wrong

[unique cypress]

that's my standard VIP

I just built a test setup, cut off the bauxite supply and it recovered just fine

same with filling up the scrap

better pic @crimson moat

[vapid gorge]

recycling water is very easy if you keep it split

it looks like you're trying to merge and split the solution? if you're having flow issues I'd guess it's there

[unique cypress]

Oh, and also, for all the 600/min pipe deniers, this setup contains a 600/min pipe that works fine just fine

[unique cypress]

Actually, the requirement might've been equal head lift, not equal volume? I don't remember

[crimson moat]

If you can make a manifold of 80 turbofuel gens on 1 pipe then you'll be the first

[crimson moat]

I found a good use for buffers

It's a bit dumb but it's a good fix to a problem that i actually ran into, due to building with some constraints

Sulfuric Acid > Non-fissile Uranium loop (1 water = 1 acid = 1 water)

Constraint #1 - sulfuric acid refineries and non-fissile uranium blenders are far apart

Constraint #2 - interconnection between banks of machines is under the floor

these create a problem.. there is a huge underground pipe making up almost the entire pipe system volume. If that pipe is say 98% full, all of that 98% is below the machine intake, so the machines can't run. With bursty inputs and outputs this could create a stall or clog if the liquid level falls below 98% or hits 100% locally.

With buffers at/above the machine intake though, instead of the acceptable zone for flow being with pipes 98-99% full, that ceiling is raised and it's something like 98-139% of the initial pipe setup instead which will feed the intakes and also not clog. That also makes it very easy to load say 120% into the pipe system and have +-20% room for clogging or stalling instead of +-1%.

Yes, you can do this with pipes too - you always can, a buffer is just a fat pipe.

but it performs a useful function in densely expanding the amount of liquid that is in the system and expanding the operational range without clogging or stalling. Without it you need a very specific amount of water and nitric acid or this system will clog/stall, it may even do so with very specific numbers. With buffer above intake level and a pump you can be plus or minus a few thousand m3 and it's fine, instead of +100m3 clogging the system and -100m3 having the fluid not quite rise enough to reach their machine intake.

[unborn dome]

Any ideas why the space elevator has six inputs, when one would be more than enough for the speed it needs items input? Was there an older game mechanic where each item you need to send up requires a separate input?

[crimson moat]

it looks cool

[lone jewel]

The space elevator asks for multiple parts, so there should be multiple inputs for each factory line

Otherwise, once a certain part is completed, a single input line would clog

[unborn dome]

I just merge them all into a single belt by the time they reach it, since they already overflow into a sink

But yeah I guess that's a good reason

If not using a sink

[lone jewel]

Sink won't help

[fallow siren]

imagine if we also have input to feed the milestone hub

[lone jewel]

As it will get stuck on the belt past the smart aplitter

[unborn dome]

Oh true, like if you're just constantly outputting everything

[old hearth]

rare case where programable splitter could be good

[lone jewel]

Also won't help

[fallow siren]

modular space elevator

[old hearth]

final step of the modular frame production line

[fallow siren]

id like to use the inputs if we can place multiple of them

but sadly we cant

[vapid gorge]

bet heding? I don't think the inputs are very useful anyway. I don't know anyone who feeds space parts by belt

[unborn dome]

I feed them by belt, but only from the current manufacturer that's making that specific part

(One part at a time, then a I rejig the Project Assembly factory for the next item)

[vapid gorge]

seems like more work than just carrying the right parts over tbh

[bleak wagon]

im currently on hour 3 of planning out my next save, I almost have all the production of the space elevator planned out, now i need to do power planning and resources for building. it takes over 2.5 minutes for it to adjust calculations though

[vapid gorge]

why does it take that long?

[fallow siren]

set number calculation to manual

having it at auto makes it slower

[bleak wagon]

interesting

[bleak wagon]

i assume you mean to calculate

[vapid gorge]

well yeah.

so modeler actually takes a couple minutes to recalc something?

[bleak wagon]

when i had it set to automatic, yes, i changed it to manual and now it just does it immediately again

[fallow siren]

only if you do auto calculating

manual calc, does not

it takes seconds

[old hearth]

whats the difference

thats kinda counter intuitive

[fallow siren]

i feel like auto is worse cuz it doesnt work for recycling

it always set everything to 0

[bleak wagon]

I managed to lose 10 plastic, i like cannot find it in this web anywhere

i probably put it down in an outpost somewhere like 5 minutes in and donjt rememember

[vapid gorge]

try this, just turn Converters off or unclick the conversion recipes https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[bleak wagon]

ik satisfactory tools exists, i like modeler for this though

[fallow siren]

for example, first pic is auto, 2nd is manual

it always set you to 0 which is frustating

but manual gives you the actual number for fresh water

which is kinda ironic

[bleak wagon]

as soon as i find the copper ingots in here, this is what ive mapped out for everything to do the space elevator in my next save

[frosty owl]

These?

[bleak wagon]

thats for copper powder in nuclear pasta, im trying to figure out where something needs 63.78 copper at

[frosty owl]

That's the only Copper Ingots visible in the picture you sent here

[bleak wagon]

yeah i jsut found it

its in one of the many outposts

alclad sheets

[frosty owl]

Why not leave ores/ingots outside the outposts if you don't want to lose track of them?

[bleak wagon]

I just forgot to put that one as an input for the aluminum factory, Ive been making sure all the raw resources are visible on the outside

final spaghetti for the space elevator

time to setup some dimension depots in here to take some resources for building. After that I get to make the power setup and work on the MAM things

[fierce merlin]

im starting to think this game is to complicated for me 😭

[bleak wagon]

only if you let it be

[unborn dome]

Hypothetically if I transport uranium by drone, will it fly far-enough off the ground (aside from the start and end drone ports) that the radiation won't hurt anyone not wearing the hazmat suit on the ground?

[bleak wagon]

it should

[crimson moat]

I've had drones flying straight through unrelated factories that just happened to be in their way

[unborn dome]

The pathing since 1.1 seems to be much better

[bleak wagon]

ficsits gonna hate me after this one

[thorn bane]

how long would that last

[frosty owl]

Tbh, the worse part of transporting radioactive stuff are the stations/ports themselves. Even a train full of radioactive stuff zipping by is not enough to give considerable harm, unless it stops next to you

[frosty owl]

(I'm guessing it's just for organization purposes in the planner xD)

[bleak wagon]

im just storing waste in this save, building a huge warehouse for it and calling it a day, that depot would last i think 10 minutes

[unborn dome]

Hmm really? In that case I might train the uranium from the normal node I'm going to use, and just drone from the two difficult impure nodes.

[fallow siren]

not really a concern as long as you have iodine filter

[unborn dome]

The concern is if someone is nearby who doesn't

[bleak wagon]

make 5/min and you never have to worry about radiation, idr the exact reason

[fallow siren]

the more annoying thing about radiation is its tick sounds, anyone knows what setting to mute it?

[unborn dome]

I have iodine filters automated, but I don't want to have to rely on them

(When I'm not actually near the nuclear power plant or the uranium mines)

It'd be nice if the ticking only happened if you're unprotected

[fluid vector]

I wish I was a wordcel so I could translate this into a visual

[violet wharf]

HI guys, I'm finally starting preplanning some of my builds and wanted to hear what people thought of this model, I know it's innefficient, but I font feel like running all the water necessary for heavy oil residue (also the fuel packager is just a placeholder for now, overflow will be sinked if necessary)

[vapid gorge]

not sure what is inneficient about it? hard to see what it's doing though. Modeler isn't really good for sharing plans or conveying the process

[unique cypress]

I mean it's definitely oil inefficient

900 plastic and 900 rubber only needs 600 oil

If you want to add 450 fuel as well, it'd be 750 oil

[violet wharf]

You're thinking with the heavy oil residue alt recipe right?

[vapid gorge]

if it's making what you need and you don't need the oil for anything else it's fine

there's more resources on the map than your computer can physically handle in processing. so it's really more about what is available locally and what you're willing to transport

[unique cypress]

Heavy oil residue, residual rubber, diluted fuel, recycled rubber, recycled plastic, and nothing else

[vapid gorge]

you can use all least resource effficient recipes in the game and still easily finish phase 5 and do large builds

you just likely will have to be willing to import a fair bit of stuff

[violet wharf]

I'm making a main bus design kinda like the ones popular in factorio, even though I know it's not very popular, but I dont mind shipping things, I just really dislike water

[wind spade]

main bus is practically pointless in SF, the two games are very different in terms of playstyle

[vapid gorge]

by bus do you mean just a bunch of belts?

or actually mixed belts?

[violet wharf]

Yeah I just hate the water shipping

[vapid gorge]

if the belts aren't mixed items then it's just regular manifolds stacked on one another

[unique cypress]

Why would you ship water? Almost all oil is near water

[violet wharf]

I know, but I got tired of my first base and just wanted to create one collected factory

[violet wharf]

Ok yeah I didnt consider creating the products on site and then shipping out the products, though I realise now that it is much smarter

[wind spade]

which is also why in general it's not recommended building in one place, but instead spreading your factories all over the map 🙂

[violet wharf]

Yeah I know, but I still want to create a bus, so I'll just ship the plastic and rubber back to the bus

[wind spade]

I mean you do you, you've been warned 😛

[vapid gorge]

again, if it's just stacks of belts carrying one item type each ... it's nto a bus.

you just have a bunch of manifolds are are taking up more space than needed

[wind spade]

gtiven they said "like in Factorio", I'm pretty confident they know what a bus is

[vapid gorge]

Ive had a lot of people whove have said the same thing and it's just single item belts xD

[wind spade]

it's still a bus if you use it to split to factories and merge back products

[unique cypress]

Belts have a too low throughput and there are too many different item kinds for a bus setup to be a good idea imo

[vapid gorge]

but that means having those products on the same belts? which basically no one ever actually does

[wind spade]

no, on different belts is fine

[unique cypress]

Do you even know what a bus base in Factorio looks like?

[vapid gorge]

that's really no different than a manifold with branches then

[wind spade]

the difference being "merge back products onto the bus" (meaning either adding belts or merging into existing belts that have given item)

[vapid gorge]

so complicated injection manifold?

[wind spade]

not sure what do you mean?

[vapid gorge]

if it's about merging items/belts along the way it just sounds like an injection manifold?

[wind spade]

a "bus" is series of belts that distribute materials to factories and collect products back on them to use them for future processing

[vapid gorge]

doesn't that require mixed belts?

[wind spade]

one of main reasons to build is is variable production and consumption

no?

[vapid gorge]

that just sounds like a bunch of stretched manifolds stacked on one another then

[wind spade]

you add more belts if you make new products

[unique cypress]

Doesn't even need to be variable. It's also useful if you don't want to do the math to ratio everything

[wind spade]

very old screenshot, but example in Factorio

[vapid gorge]

like that's just 2 manifolds.

[wind spade]

belts go in the middle from right to left, when you need resource X, you split that from a belt that has it, use it in a machine and product of that machine gets merged back onto the bus, either to existing belt that has the product, or a new belt

yes, a bus is essentially a few manifolds

[vapid gorge]

I don't really see the point of a name for it then if it functionally isn't any different than manifolds layed out inneficiently

I thought the whole point of the buses in factorio were mixing all the tiems up so any machine along the lines could pick up whatever they wanted

[unique cypress]

That's sushi

[wind spade]

no, that's a sushi belt

[vapid gorge]

stuff can be two things

[wind spade]

it isn't tho 🙂

[vapid gorge]

Why have a term for bad manifolding then?

[wind spade]

well in it's raw form, a bus can be imagined as a big box, every machine taking ingredients from it and putting their products back in. Something like a central item provider

the "problem" in factory games is that you practically never have a big enough box to do this, so you use belts instead

[unique cypress]

It's not bad in factorio lol

[wind spade]

the term predates factory games, it's origin is in computer hardware - a "bus" is basically a data line that runs through [hardware], to which components can connect and read from/write to

and since that's basically what this build style does, it was given the term "bus" for it

"manifold" is a term given to a belt that distributes resources via overflow method (in SF)

[vapid gorge]

I don't really see much of a point to naming a group of manifolds then.

[wind spade]

because it's not "group of manifolds"

it's "build style where resources are placed on centralised belt stack, machines built next to it, taking resources they need and merging back products on the belts"

and I'm not writing all that when I can just write "bus"

"group of manifolds" is way more generic and like 95% of what it would cover wouldn't be a bus

[vapid gorge]

but each belt on bus is just a manifold with many branches isn't it?

[wind spade]

(and THAT is the distinction that some people and/or streamers/youtubers get wrong - they say a "bus" is just stacked belts transporting resources from A to B)

well yes, but in the same way you can say "manifold is just a few belts" and generalise even more

a bus uses manifolds for part of its functionality, but not all stacked manifolds are busses

[vapid gorge]

when would a bunch of stacked manifolds not be a bus though?

cause sure, a bunch of stacked belts going from A to B isn't a bus, but they aren't manifolds yet either

[wind spade]

if you just have 3 manifolds feeding a line of smelters for example?

[vapid gorge]

how many manifolds do you stack until you can call it a bus xD

[wind spade]

or if you don't have an actual central bus, but just manifolds across your whole base

[vapid gorge]

but then they aren't stacked up together

[wind spade]

and aren't a bus, yeah

this is the basic principle. M = machine(s)

if that's what your stacked belts are doing (being central point for getting any resource from and putting any resource on), it's a bus

some people in SF (and probably in Factorio as well) built circular busses, meaning the belts loop around, so at any point you can take a resource from/put a resource on the belt and it has the possibility of reaching any other machine (that needs it)

[vapid gorge]

so really the distinction is that you have to have incoming manifolds going to the bus

[cerulean stratus]

i like how big you made the bus, normally I make the manifolds big

[vapid gorge]

as well

[violet wharf]

Oh sh*t I went for a smoke and seems I missed a few things

[vapid gorge]

just breakign down the idea of a bus

I think a better name at this point is just 'bad manifolding'

[wind spade]

in Factorio it's much more useful since:

• intermediates are used in way more things (not tiered like in SF)
• you have to craft actual machine-item (in SF you build constructor out of ingredients, in Factorio you make actual constructor item and building a constructor costs one constructor item)
• production is variable (miners run out and can get boosted by research)
• consumption is variable (Factorio doesn't have sinks, and science [research] has variable consumption, and malls exist [see above] )

[unique cypress]

and i think you're just stupid

[wind spade]

well the distinction is "is the purpose of the build to provide central point to access resources"

[unique cypress]

because buses are very useful in factorio

[cerulean stratus]

i don't like having a manifold as a bus

if a manifold is making parts for 2 different manifolds, then each manifold gets its own belt

if I'm making rods for screws and for frames, I'd have a belt for the screws and a belt for the frames

[unique cypress]

then that's not a bus

[cerulean stratus]

a bus just means you have a central location where all the logistics happen

a way withought a bus would be doing a whole chain at a time

a smelter into plates
then a smelter into rods
rods into screws
plates and screws into rips

and that way you won't make many manifolds

[thorn bane]

this is a bus

[cerulean stratus]

This is a bus

[cerulean stratus]

Those vertical towers are cool

But how do you climb up easily

[thorn bane]

you dont
you hoverpack

they are really nice with auto connecting blueprints

but they kinda destroyed my fps since theres a lot of overhead belts that you wouldnt normally need

[graceful tundra]

a wha?

and what are those towers?

[thorn bane]

happy lil manufacturers

crystal oscillators and modular engines iirc

[broken kiln]

Idk that this explicitly qualifies as math and meta, but I've never seen any mention of discrete rounding values for valves until now. https://youtube.com/shorts/wEpylc1WHdQ

[unique cypress]

last I checked, only the flow display is rounded. the actual flow is not

well, other than being able to set a value with only 1 decimal place of accuracy

[old hearth]

the valves only have 128 values they can actually let through

valves suck

[unique cypress]

no, they have 128 values they can display. but 6001 they can be set to and actually allow through

[vapid gorge]

this is apparently not true anymore
it however doesn't mean they aren't useless can can often cause problems

[quick gorge]

So valves are less bad now? Wonderful I'm planning some overflow complex bullshit just so I don't build a square factory

[wind spade]

that's not true now, that was true before (iirc in 1.0)

[wind spade]

valves are less bad in terms of limitations, but they are still practically pointless

[unique cypress]

I tested valves in 1.0 and 1.1, and in both versions they behaved the same - 6001 actual settings, 128 allowed display values

Haven't tested them properly in earlier versions - it's possible they always behaved this way

[wind spade]

idk where the change was, afaik it was undocumented

[unique cypress]

idk, I'm saying that I cannot say if there even was a change

and if it was, it was between U8 and 1.0 at the latest

[wind spade]

that was confirmed by multiple people who know what they are talking about

(aka reading save files and such)

[unique cypress]

well, I tested it by tracking a buffer's fill level over time. it filled at the rate the valve was set to, not at the rate it was displaying

[wind spade]

yeah but that was after the change

I'm talking about the actual limit seen in save file

[unique cypress]

and the change has been confirmed in save files as well?

[wind spade]

there has been change in save files where the property is no longer a short, but now [whatever] which can hold more values

don't quote me on specifics, bcs I've just read modding people saying it

[old hearth]

float?

[wind spade]

idk which specific type they are using

int would make more sense

[oblique hollow]

a value type used to represent decimals in computers

[old hearth]

i knmow what it is

i was aking if thats what he was referring to

[oblique hollow]

ah sorry

[old hearth]

np

[oblique hollow]

the number that gets saved in the valve, thats a float

[unique cypress]

seems like a waste of bits

[oblique hollow]

if you think that then you would have loved the previous way valves worked

[unique cypress]

there's only 6k possible values anyway

there's a difference between 13 and 7 bits lol

[oblique hollow]

i think theres other places to look for optimization rather than "why does the valve use a float and not an fp16 or an int"

or whatever heck OTHER value type you could pick

[unique cypress]

a 16 bit int makes most sense imo

c++ reserves space in 8 bit chunks anyway iirc

[oblique hollow]

(lets be real tho, how many people use valves anyway)

also, even with that, the flow rate pipes use is a float anyway

so they can just directly input the value we enter as a flow rate for the valve and do math with it

And since every single pipe ever saves flow rates when you save the game....
it makes more sense to treat the valve like a pipe too then. perhaps the float values are all compacted or something during the save process

either way, pipes are already float. Valve is a modified pipe, so it makes no difference

in fact... every single value you can think of thats related to pipes is a float

head lift too

[plain rivet]

https://tenor.com/view/it-we-float-stephen-king-gif-9720105

[quick gorge]

Is there a better way to handle the DMR here?

APM production sends DMR to Ficsonium and then the DMR that creates turns into DM crystals to close the loop

[oblique hollow]

use a mix of DM trap and DM condensate to achive 0 residual DMC ?

[quick gorge]

I'm using 4 sloops for the DMC at the end as is

And I realllly didn't want to use the sloops as that is over the 103 limit and that already kills me inside

[plain rivet]

105

[quick gorge]

103... 106 in the world minus 3 for MAM research

[carmine iron]

Hey , I am facing an issue (currently planning an 35 alien boost/per minute factory) so I have to move crazy amount of ressources ! Can a train handle like 27 720 limestones per minute ?

[unique cypress]

I suggest reconsidering your recipe choices first. 27k is way more than I needed of any resource for my 50 APM/min factory

But in general, yes. Trains are capable of moving 100s of 1000s of items per minute along a single pair of rails. But you may need multiple trains and stations

[carmine iron]

I can show you the plan

[wind spade]

you can easily just add more cars

my personal recommendation is one car per belt (correctly buffered)

[carmine iron]

But I kind of running out of coal for my project so I have to consider other choice

[plain rivet]

skip the mam research if you don't need to scan for them or build a power thing and it's `105

[unique cypress]

With 27k, I'd try to squeeze out as much as I can from a single platform/wagon. 50% more wagons or whatever is a lot at these amounts

[wind spade]

eh, cars don't really add many issues, and long train is "objectively" cooler than short train

I'd rather have excess throughput on the line in case some delays happen

[quick gorge]

.. that's.. no
You need the research

[unique cypress]

You technically don't. Or at least just the APA is definitely skippable. Not sure about the sloop scanner upgrade

[carmine iron]

Ok mate !

[plain rivet]

some min/maxer in here says just doing the sam tree unlocks it. so you don't NEED it

I can't confirm that, because I've never not done the research

but if that's true. 105

[carmine iron]

This is the plan

[plain rivet]

if that's not true, you can still skip the power thing and get 104?

[carmine iron]

With max nuke and other factory I will have coal issue I think

[quick gorge]

How I read this is you can get the APA without researching the APA?

[quick gorge]

I just wanted to know if there was any better way of doing this

[wind spade]

production amplification (slooping) is unlocked in alien tech tree with 1 sloop, prerequsite being alien energy harvesting (no sloop needed) and sloop analysis (1 sloop needed)

[unique cypress]

With depart when empty/full, you'll have enough room for delays and still get the full throughput

[wind spade]

depart when empty/full doesn't help if the train takes longer than it can

[unique cypress]

Is the sloop analysis required, though? Or just either or

[plain rivet]

have you tried doing just the sam tree? someone said just the sam tree will unlock both lower sides

and the top is just if you need to scan for them

[wind spade]

from wiki it seems it is. And if it's not, you still have 1 sloop cost for the actual unlock

[plain rivet]

yeah, 1 sloop cost of the 106

[unique cypress]

One of y'all can literally test it in a nocost test world in like 2 minutes

[plain rivet]

leaving you at 105

[quick gorge]

This

[plain rivet]

i'm at work. i'm only here to argue

[wind spade]

sloop is in SAM tree tho

[plain rivet]

theres no sloops in the middle tree where you use sam

[wind spade]

well most people call the whole thing "SAM tree", so that's what I was going from

[plain rivet]

it's the alient tech tree. but i meant do the middle branch only and i have seen claims that unlocks the bottom parts of each side

[wind spade]

wiki doesn't seem to claim one or another, so I guess you have to test it

[quick gorge]

I'll just take this is the best I can make it then

[unique cypress]

Considering how the rest of the MAM works, I'd say "or" is the most likely unlock condition. I'm not sure if I've ever seen "and", but then again I never paid it much mind

[dense solstice]

just thought I'd come back to this and say that the 600 fluid/minute manifold is managing pretty nicely, there's only a handful of refineries out of the 350 that aren't at 100% efficiency but by the looks of it that's just a matter of time till that goes to just being fully online

[wind spade]

OR/AND is specific to specific schematics and is seen in docs.json, there's definitely both and it's per-schematic setting, not a generic thing

[plain rivet]

the alien animal meat tree has some and logic. i can't remember if you need all 4 to unlock the dna node or or some weird combo, but it's definitely not any of the above

[tropic hawk]

You need at least 3

[humble dirge]

o7, never used more than one train before so i dont have a clue how this works,
how can i get the yellow to join that line without there having a chance of the red train crashing into it while its joining?

[wind spade]

signals

[humble dirge]

where do i unlock those, the mam or the hub?

[wind spade]

hub

[unique cypress]

Yep, only one node is required

[unique cypress]

that tree is fucked up. you need spitter protein specifically. for some reason

[wind spade]

yeah as I said - it's different per schematic. Wiki could use some info on which ones are and aren't needed I guess

[unique cypress]

the requirements on the wiki need work in general. I manually checked and fixed all alt recipe requirements but they got reverted a few weeks later

[wind spade]

well they are automatically exported from docs

so on a new game version with docs changes, they get overwritten

[unique cypress]

incorrectly apparently

[wind spade]

blame docs

[unique cypress]

or the docs are incorrect

[wind spade]

(though it's possible that there's error in my parser script as well, but I don't really think that it could just make up different requirements tbh, given it just reads the field in docs)

[unique cypress]

most (all?) alts that have more than one unlock requirement, the requirements are ANDed, not ORed

and yet the wiki puts OR everywhere

[wind spade]

in general, you shouldn't edit the .json files on wiki

looking at the docs file in general, there's 59 ORs and 210 ANDs

[unique cypress]

default recipes have a lot of ANDs

there's not a single AND in the alt recipe table on the HDD page

[wind spade]

should be there for iron wire, cast screws and distilled silica (unless ofc those only require one schematic, at which point it's pointless to look at)

[wind spade]

yeah I just filtered docs by "all alt schematics that have AND"

[unique cypress]

what AND would those two have?

[wind spade]

well the property in Docs is called "mRequireAllSchematicsToBePurchased"

I'm just filtering whether it has "true" or "false" in docs

[unique cypress]

i see

well, in FModel, Cast Screws doesn't even have this property at all

and neither does Iron Wire

[wind spade]

I guess "true" is the default value then, as the property appears if there's entry in `mSchematicDependencies"

(I'm going through my old code and trying to figure out all the parsing logic, I do not remember this thing from top of my head lol)

[unique cypress]

But Cat Comp has True in FModel, but OR on the Wiki (idk about docs, idk what those are 😅 )

[wind spade]

docs is basically automatically made export of the thing you're looking on left side

they are found in [game install]/CommunityResources/Docs/[lang].json

for example, this is the same entry as seen in Docs

[unique cypress]

then why is there OR on the wiki?

[wind spade]

that's what I'm trying to figure out lol

the code that converts this to wiki format is like 200 lines long and I've written it like two years back 😄

(and has been working at that point, so idk what changed)

[wind spade]

well I've found the reason why there's OR, but first - is it wrong? looking at the wiki entry for caterium computer, it says you either unlock it in MAM or in T6, isn't that correct?

[unique cypress]

in the docs, and in FModel, it says that all dependencies are required. From my (admittedly short) testing, that setting does what it says

I could check it again with some test recipe to make sure

[wind spade]

well... it's a bit more complicated than that

long text incomming on what's happening, sec

[unique cypress]

I just booted up a test world with all Tiers unlocked, all alt recipes unlocked and NO MAM research. The Cat Comp recipe is not unlocked

But after ticking off MAM research as well, it's unlocked

Without the tiers unlocked, Computers aren't even in the Codex

So I can only assume it's Tier 6 AND Caterium Tree

[humble dirge]

tried playing around with the paths / blocks and couldnt seem to figure them out, where would I have to put my blocks / paths for this to work?

[sorry for cutting the great wall of text that is to come]

[unique cypress]

in general:

paths before intersections, blocks after intersections (if rails cross)

blocks before and after stations

blocks every 100ish meters on straightaways

[dreamy umbra]

i see no issue with that tree,i got big beef with spitters

literally worst enemy to fight

[dreamy umbra]

maybe i can show some sections of my rail as an example

or i could just draw,holdon

[humble dirge]

Like this for the intersection?
blue being path
pink being block

[wind spade]

Wiki schematic unlock export

[unique cypress]

oh, another warning. When you have a block signal, then a path signal, in exactly that order, the distance between them needs to be longer than the breaking distance of the train passing through. Otherwise, it'll slow down

[humble dirge]

i will only have the 2 trains running with one train starting at the bottom station and one from the left station but both meet at the top station, however the bottom and the left dont visit each other so i should be ok against that right?

[dreamy umbra]

@humble dirge

[dreamy umbra]

one must imagine following this rule

[wind spade]

that junction is so cursed

[dreamy umbra]

true! i'm a horrible artist

i will screenshot one in-game rn

[unique cypress]

no, the rail connections are cursed

it swaps from RHD to LHD

[dreamy umbra]

what do you mean

oh god it does

frick

[humble dirge]

[unique cypress]

it's still fucked lmao

the bottom rails is now bi-di

[dreamy umbra]

fuck it we ball

hold on i gotta drop the funny intersection i have

[unique cypress]

you've got a bugged switch here

no nvm

[dreamy umbra]

it all works

[humble dirge]

if this helps at all

[unique cypress]

the colors are very similar and I thought they were the same

[dreamy umbra]

@unique cypresscursed?

[humble dirge]

except mine only flows like so

[dreamy umbra]

why not make them on different heights with this intersection?

it is unpractical for me but very practical for you

[humble dirge]

everything has been on the same level so never really thought about it tbh

[dreamy umbra]

it will improve throughput

[humble dirge]

and unsure how to make it look pretty

mainly

[unique cypress]

it'll slow down the train tho

the most efficient intersections imo are tiny, flat ones

so the trains are in and out asap

[dreamy umbra]

also,factory complex railway junctions,AKA hell

[dreamy umbra]

true!

but the slowdown is compensated with non-wimpy locomotives

[burnt folio]

wait is it better to even put blocks/signals on long straights?

[unique cypress]

yes. block signals

[dreamy umbra]

yes

[burnt folio]

so blocks everywhere and then signal at the start of an intersection?

[dreamy umbra]

the more blocks you have on a piece of rail the more trains can fit

[dreamy umbra]

yes,block signals at commutes,path signals at intersections

[burnt folio]

so if you plan to have a "main highway" then you should have blocks everywhere

[burnt folio]

only start or also end? of intersection?

[dreamy umbra]

only start

[dreamy umbra]

see this

[burnt folio]

sorry I'm about to start with a big train network so this is good to know

[dreamy umbra]

its fine

[unique cypress]

^

[unique cypress]

^

[burnt folio]

how long should 1 block be?

[dreamy umbra]

by the way,@burnt folioare you going skybridge or supports

[unique cypress]

100ish meters is fine. But the shorter the better theoretically

[dreamy umbra]

how long your trains will be?

[burnt folio]

supports

ehhh... currently my biggest train would be steel mill with 1 locomotive and then 3 cargo sections

[dreamy umbra]

yep,as kyo said 100 meters

orrrr,about 13 fonudations

[burnt folio]

I'm bad with in game measurements ^^'

but one foundation should be 8 meters so 12-13 foundations right

[unique cypress]

a max length track is 100m iirc

[dreamy umbra]

i'd vouch for 15 or 20 foundations tho,just my preferences

[dreamy umbra]

i'll check rn

[burnt folio]

I mean I'm working with bp's made on MK2 so... my tracks aren't 100m sections ^^'

taht is the current track section I'm working on

[dreamy umbra]

99m

[dreamy umbra]

that factory sure looks nice

[dreamy umbra]

in simple terms a signal after every 2 blocks without signals

[burnt folio]

since I work with BP, should I just put a block on my long ones? ( which is 5 foundations )

or just manually put them on?

[unique cypress]

despite what some people say, I don't see any issues with densely spamming signals.

so i'd say putting signals in the blueprint is fine

[burnt folio]

what do some people say?

[unique cypress]

that the block signals should be placed as far apart as the longest train

and that it helps with deadlocks somehow?

But i've been placing my signals willy-nilly and I've never had issues with deadlocks

it might be an issue if you have stations immediately after an intersection

[burnt folio]

I mean this one will be quite a decent amount away from an intersection so I can't imagine it being an issue with trains backing up intersections

wait you can put block signals on stations? why would that be needed?

[unique cypress]

so a train stopped at a station doesn't block the rest of the track

there can be only one train between block signals, no matter how far apart they are

[burnt folio]

ohhh that's fair

[dreamy umbra]

i have two blueprints for track-with signals and without
i go 4:1 with them

40m long blueprints

[burnt folio]

TBF I have could also only place them on the support tracks, that would lead to similar things to this and on the long sections there would be about 8 foundations between signals ( and it looks good, I'd hate to see a bunch of these on every section )

[dawn quartz]

if i were to do a fuel gen setup would i want heaavy oil residue,plastic/rubber,or polymer resin as a by product

[unique cypress]

the best recipes for fuel production are Heavy Oil Residue and Diluted (Packaged) Fuel

[dawn quartz]

alright thanks

[silent patrol]

how do i smart splitter overflow pipes if that makes sense

[wind spade]

why do you need that?

[unique cypress]

a vertical junction

[silent patrol]

i have 4 sets of 600/min pipes and one 450/min and the modeler is showing that i can use 20 refiners but the refiners are using 137/min meaning i can only do 3 refiners for the last 450/min pipe

for reference

[wind spade]

clock the refineries so that each pipe feeds the amount it can

[silent patrol]

then i have a weird number of refiners to work with

[wind spade]

no reason to do any kind of balancing/overflow with pipes

[silent patrol]

wait im stupid

yeah i am if i just do 250% it takes 150 oil per minute and leaves the amount of refiners as i said above

what are the point of valves

[unique cypress]

none

[silent patrol]

yeah they seemed that way

[brisk urchin]

please dont use that much oil for just normal fuel i begg you lol

[unique cypress]

True, you could make that much fuel from just 712.5 oil

[brisk urchin]

the type of fuel was my point but sure

[unique cypress]

Nah, regular fuel is fine

Sure, rocket is less effort but regular fuel is piss easy anyway

[brisk urchin]

rocket less efford?

no?

[silent patrol]

i dont have blenders yet

[unique cypress]

If you build in a spot with all resources available, it's less effort per MW than fuel

[unique cypress]

You don't need them. Diluted Packaged Fuel is made in refineries

[brisk urchin]

you dont need blenders for turbo

[unique cypress]

Turbo is more effort that fuel

Unless you want the oil efficiency and don't care about anything else, turbo is dogshit

[silent patrol]

diluted needs blenders?

[silent patrol]

turbo is too hard work and id rather use coal for steel

[brisk urchin]

there are 2 recepies

[unique cypress]

I literally said diluted packaged fuel

[brisk urchin]

one with and one without packaging

[silent patrol]

i didnt think there was a difference

[unique cypress]

Same oil efficiency, different machines

[brisk urchin]

its realy not but sure the struggle to learn efficiency is real lol

[silent patrol]

also this is making 50GW so this is fine until i can do normal diluted fuel

[brisk urchin]

this ones doing 170GW btw

[near zodiac]

is there any way I can "calculate" how much of fluid will a train take to a place?
Like I wanna build a huge rocket fuel powerplant, but I need to know the amount of oil per minute that a train (or several) will bring to the powerplant. Is there any way to have an estimated amount?

[unique cypress]

!wikisearch tutorail:+train+throughput

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=tutorail:+train+throughput

[unique cypress]

Well, I can't spell

But it's the first result anyway

For fluids, stack size is 50, and obviously use pipe speed instead of belt speed

[near zodiac]

yay study time

[trim berry]

How can I achive a 30/40 split?

Cause I need a belt of 30 and a belt of 40 from a 70 belt

[crimson moat]

the easiest way is not to put 70 on the belt in the first place

like, have some machines put 30 on belt A, and some other machines put 40 on belt B.

[thorn trail]

that is kinda funny, you requested a tutorial on trains and misspelled tutorial by making the word end in rail

[exotic nymph]

I got 2 miners at each 30 iron/minute
Than they both merge into a smelter at 60 iron/min
Split into 3 parts
left side is rods that turn into nails
middle is plates
right is rods
The rods and nails are split into a assembler for the motor

[last quail]

The people of math and meta I need help with my coal set up, first time playing so struggling to find the correct ways of doing things but this is a setup I have for my coal power plant would this work for optimal flow?

[kindred carbon]

How many smelters?

[exotic nymph]

1

[kindred carbon]

A single smelter takes 30/min ore and outputs 30/min ingot

So you’ll need 2 smelters

[exotic nymph]

i got 1 with 2 power cells i mean

[kindred carbon]

If those are 4m foundations you’ll need a pump

Ah you already have a pump set up

What’s the clock on the extractors?

[last quail]

Yea pump from the middle one which should hopefully not only split the flow but allow me to pump it up

[last quail]

100%, as it's 3 pumps per 8 coal power plants to my knowledge and I only have 4 set up right now waiting on more rotors to be crafted for the other 4

[exotic nymph]

im gonna restart my farm 1 sec

[kindred carbon]

You don’t have enough iron rods and nails going into the assemblers, just the rotors alone will need 100/min screws and 20/min rods

[exotic nymph]

yeah i need nails

i got 3 more nods but their like 200m away

[kindred carbon]

You can delete the other pipe and just use a single one to feed the generators

[last quail]

It's doubled for a reason

[kindred carbon]

Or not… that’s 360/min I was thinking in mk2 pipes lol

But yea I used a similar set up for my coal generators, it should work fine

Junctions also work as splitters

[crimson moat]

That looks pretty good.

For pipe simplicity and margin i do prefer something like this #math-and-meta message

[last quail]

Yea I already calculated it lol, found a very simular build on Reddit and just used it

I mean I already thought of that but the fact that this is to rebuild my main factory and transfer my bio-mass to coal generation it wouldn't be appropriate

[crimson moat]

I don't see why not

for your current build, since it does rely on interconnection between multiple water exactors, 1 pump on the middle extractor before the junction might actually be sufficient

[kindred carbon]

One pump can work on a million pipes as long as it’s downstream of the pump

[last quail]

It's up stream for aesthetic purposes 😭

[kindred carbon]

Hey I need help with a recycling set up

[last quail]

I like my designs aswell as functionality

[crimson moat]

dm me 😄

[kindred carbon]

Hold on let me gather my thoughts for a second

Might take a bit

I’ve been playing for 2 hours so my brain is fried

[spare osprey]

How do i know how many circuit boards i need to make?

[vapid gorge]

figure out how much of the things that use CBs you're making

in general don't try to future proof, it'll just be wasted effort.

[wooden jasper]

gang I think I went too far preparing for heavy modular frames

I finally worked out every last problem with my 2400/min RIP factory (mostly fluid bugs) and it just occurred to me that the modular frame production for the alts I'm using is really difficult to set up

I have the alt for RIP that uses rubber for example, which takes 768 machines, but to turn just 100 RIP into modular frames with the Steeled Frame recipe requires 50 assemblers

but on the other hand, 50 assemblers make 150 mod frames, which only makes 56.25 hmf

I could (but wouldn't) turn the whole RIP factory into mod frames to have 3600 mod frames/min, which would make 1350 hmf, but then I'd also need thousands of all the other ingredients

btw I'm not even in phase 4 yet

[amber umbra]

If that’s all vanilla, your scale of item/minute is really high.

[wooden jasper]

Yeah probably

But also the potential is crazy for the iron products I could make from this

[wind spade]

I'd personally only build what I need now and don't build "in advance"

[kindred carbon]

Why would you even need 2400 reinforced iron plates anyway

[vapid gorge]

to make 4 HMF pm

[kindred carbon]

How does this look?
Uranium:

https://satisfactory-logistics.xyz/factories/calculator/shared/pTFi4Ecb3ytg7ec6Qy4whX
plutonium:
https://satisfactory-logistics.xyz/factories/calculator/shared/tTd6PZYJFoeErDkvTMfTMx

[kindred carbon]

It’s time to talk circles here xD

375GW

Uses 800 uranium

No ficsonium, I plan to store the plutonium waste until further notice

Back to tools I go

[glad shuttle]

I’m just gonna give u a little warning…but fertile uranium is technically a terrible recipe lol

It’s good if u really don’t wanna bring in silica

[kindred carbon]

The alternate?

[glad shuttle]

Yea

That recipe forces u to set aside a decent chunk of ur uranium

[kindred carbon]

What do you mean?

Ohh

It’s not an issue for me, since I’m using less than half the uranium in the world

0 plans to expand in the future

[glad shuttle]

Oh then ur good lol

[kindred carbon]

I went for that one just to avoid building more uranium reactors

[glad shuttle]

For a lot of ppl who want to have zero waste plants u basically can’t reasonably burn all the plutonium fuel rods bc there isn’t enough SAM to make it all ficsonium so a lot of those plants generate most of their power from uranium so it’s important to maximum uranium for those ppl

Technically I’ve used fertile uranium alt in one of my reactors but I was more focused to trying to make ficsonium rather than generate power (bc a rocket fuel tower is just better lol)

[kindred carbon]

Also with the plutonium pellet recipe I can save on uranium by using the uranium waste to make pellets

This boosts encased plutonium cells by like 20% in terms of uranium

[glad shuttle]

I’m just gonna say if u don’t plan to deal with plutonium waste I’d advise against making/burning too many plutonium fuel rods lol

[kindred carbon]

I’ve never seen anyone use more than 300GW tbh so I’m just probably way over building here