math-and-meta

[unique cypress]

but you could quite easily simulate it, I suspect

[opaque quartz]

Since each successive splitter is half of the splitter before

[unique cypress]

But only until a machine fills

which is why it's not that simple

[opaque quartz]

Yeah

[tall hazel]

Yeah I believe it is a harmonic or taylor series, that is why calculating by hand is out of the question

[wind spade]

the online calculator that exists does a simulation rather than using a formula

imo it's not viable to come up with a formula, especially if you want things like different clock speeds

[unique cypress]

the math is fairly simple, but tedious. you take the first splitter, and the first machine or 2. if it's 1, it gets half the input, if it's 2, each gets a third.

then you take stack size, divide by input to the machine, minus its consumption. that's how long it takes to fill.

Then you calculate the inputs to the next machines, see if they're higher than consumption, they gain some items in the time it takes the first one(s) to fill. Otherwise, they stay empty.

then repeat for the second stage of the manifold, but subtracting from the input the consumption of the first, and subtracting from the stack size the amount of items alrady in the machine

[wind spade]

that's the "easy" way when you have all machines equal and such

and infinitely fast belts

[unique cypress]

well each machine won't be getting more items than the total input, so unless you specify an input higher than 1 belt can handle, the belt speed does't matter

unless you want to simulate using lower tier belts than the input one

I think it would be possible to derive a closed form formula, as long as you specify the layout

that is how many spliters, machines, and how they're connected

but the consumption of each could be a parameter

it would be horrible if each one was differnt but it seems possible at least

[wind spade]

yeah I meant different belt tiers

[oblique hollow]

tried it before.
Tl;dr: not feasible to calculate

it was something like this lol

And no, if anyone asks: i will not explain this one.

[tall hazel]

Yeah, I'm not doing that by hand. But I might try using python, I'll let you know. Thanks.

[amber umbra]

Or you can end around the entire thing by cutting the output belt. Letting everything fill, go idle. Connect output belt.

[wind spade]

if you're using a programming language, better to just do a simulation over making a formula

[amber umbra]

Simplest example of the concept is fuel generators right?

[tall hazel]

I'm not a developer, I've primarily used python for data science and statistics within engineering. What is the difference in a simulation vs using the formula?
My thought was to create for loops for the different variables all nested within a larger for loop that would then plot discretized points and then curve fit them.

[wind spade]

simulation is what was mentioned above - you go step by step and calculate how much goes where

e.g. #math-and-meta message

[oblique hollow]

simulation is just setting up virtual consumers and producers.
aka you make simplified models of the ingame stuff

formula is trying to condense it into pure mathematical expressions.

Problem with that is... the mess you see above

[versed violet]

Can't find answer on wiki - how do I calculate drone throughput with known fuel, stack size and distance?

[unique cypress]

Take the capacity, divide by time to do a round trip

[versed violet]

how do I calculate the roundtrip knowing the fuel and distance?

[unique cypress]

Time is time to actually fly plus time needed for landing/takeoff animations

[versed violet]

For the purpose of knowing if drones make sense over train before I build the drones.

[unique cypress]

Time to fly is distance divided by speed

[amber umbra]

I don’t think there’s a formula. You need to in game measure the round trip time yourself or look up results of other people doing that.

[unique cypress]

But I'm pretty sure drones fly in weird grid patterns so idk how accurate the distance measurement is

[versed violet]

The distance is 2400m, and site has packaged fuel available.

[amber umbra]

The drone ports tell you the trip time and/or throughput after one trip. Easiest to just plop the ports down and test it.

Have you used drones before?

[versed violet]

once, for extremely low throughput. The target area is 2,4 klicks away and no power grid on the route to fly on 😕

eyballing it, will drone work for 300/m for that distance?

[amber umbra]

"Drone Throughput one-way for cross map (6:21 round trip time)
~1.8 stacks/(drone)" That's the note I saved. Effectively that's the worst case throughput. At a minimum the roundtrip is 2x the docking time.

And big picture, players essentially never want a throughput bottleneck due to logistics connections. So if you don’t have enough throughput from a single drone port you just add additional drone ports until they no longer are the bottleneck.

[unique cypress]

Depends on stack size

50 or 100, no, 200 or 500, yes

At least by my estimates

[wind spade]

afaik there's no formula, as drone eats fuel in some weird way. But not 100% sure

[amber umbra]

You definitely can derive a formula from empirical data. Linear best fit with two data points. Put large error bars and call it a day.

[versed violet]

uranium ore. napkin math says 2400 distance with packaged fuel will take 6.6m roundtrip, drone port fills in 6 minutes.

Uh, can you have two drones going between two ports, with port A drone targetting port B and port B drone targetting port A? this doubles throughput, yes?

[amber umbra]

You can, yes. It removes the ability to do a “one to many” style arrangement but usually the use cases don’t overlap.

[versed violet]

this will be "can;t be bothered to build railway" case

although I still need to solve powering the remote drone port

[amber umbra]

Cross map poles seems good.

[versed violet]

I need 631m of high-durability cable. Geysers exist 😁

And here I was, believeing drones were kind of 'meh', now solving problem with amazon package delivery

[opaque quartz]

IMHO each of the long-distance logistics options (trucks, trains, drones) complement each other pretty nicely

[fierce ruin]

On the satisfactory calculator website, is there a way to combine things? Like, I have two furnaces and one is at 20%, the other is at 80%. Is there a way to combine them?

[vapid gorge]

show an image of what you mean?

[fierce ruin]

Like this big factory I'm planning. Is there a way to combine things?

[vapid gorge]

show a clearer image of what you mean.

like 2 bubbles with % on them

[fierce ruin]

God, let me find one in this mess...

[quick gorge]

🔍 please....

[vapid gorge]

ok first of all - turn off realistic view. Save yourself a world of pain

[fierce ruin]

Oh...

[vapid gorge]

second, ditch SCIM. use tools

[fierce ruin]

Well that kinda helps

Tools?

[vapid gorge]

what is your final output youre trying to build with that map?

what part and how much pm?

[opaque quartz]

satisfactorytools

[quick gorge]

SCIM is for maps, tools is for figuring the math out

[fierce ruin]

Interesting. Didn't know there were multiple sites

Crap gotta go

[vapid gorge]

here's some of your parts that Icould read - I'd make multiple plans though for clarity. easier for you https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=wrgAf0Q8qnYaJ7SysL7k

[fierce ruin]

I'm trying to use tools now

Slight issue in that I'm not sure how to use the steel screws recipe here

I have it selected as an available recipe

[vapid gorge]

if you use multiple recipes ticked it'll use resrouce value weights. Don't have multiple recipes ticked is the solution

[wind spade]

only have multiple selected if you're fine with tools picking whatever out of that set

[unique cypress]

Tools optimizes for least resources used. Selected recipe are only available for it to use. It won't use them if they're more expensive than the alternative

[opaque quartz]

BTW there is no point in making a production line just output screws as the end product. It is only used as an intermediary

[unique cypress]

And if you use the right alts, it's not used at all. Which is what I'd recommend

[wind spade]

screws are fine tbh

it's not U2 anymore

[unique cypress]

All recipes that use screws except copper rotor are just expensive

[wind spade]

well that depends how you define "expensive"

since it's mostly just using different resources

and how you value them is up to you

[unique cypress]

Again, except copper rotor, it's mostly just iron and coal.

[vapid gorge]

steel screws are pretty cheap and fast

[unique cypress]

Even if I considered other factors, copper rotor was the only screw-using recipe that made any sense to use to me

[unique cypress]

It's not just about the cost of the screws, it's also about the cost of other resources that recipes that use screws need

[wind spade]

which depends on available local resources and such, so can't really be generalised like that 🤷

[unique cypress]

it's mostly just iron and coal man

I wasn't considering making screws out of aluminium because nobody does that

[wind spade]

I'm not talking about the copper rotor, I'm talking about other places where you use screws

[unique cypress]

It's still mostly iron and coal?

[wind spade]

for?

[unique cypress]

RIPs, MFs, HMFs

Those are the only ones that can use screws

[wind spade]

sure, but how is that relevant to my point?

[unique cypress]

I don't see how your point is relevant to my point

[wind spade]

my point is "screws are fine"

[unique cypress]

I checked a few common recipe chains that use screws and all but one of them didn't make sense to use imo

[wind spade]

for you 🤷

[unique cypress]

I couldn't find a reason to use them other than "I didn't know any better" or "couldn't be bothered to gather more hard drives" or "I don't care"

Which is like fine...

I don't mean that screws are a terrible evil and should never be used, but if you're trying to optimise for resources, space, time, or effort, they never seem worth it (again, except copper rotor)

[amber umbra]

What are the big examples of recipes that people avoid using screws for?

I did my 1.0 playthrough based on "low effort, low time" since I can't play that much. Used screws a lot in combination with alts that reduce amount of unique resource types per item. Ala eliminate logistics at the cost of more resources, power.

[brisk epoch]

HMFs

[unique cypress]

The biggest one is HMFs. The default recipe is so dogshit that I'd even dare say that the Heavy Encased Frame alt is objectively better

[vapid gorge]

bolted plate + bolted frame -> hmf is great.

[brisk epoch]

doing big HMFs build with screws is ugh

[unique cypress]

Reinforced plates are great when made from iron wire and stitched plate. Less iron, fewer machines than default or bolted plus cast screw irrc

[amber umbra]

I did the cast screw, bolted frame, iron pipe, heavy encased frame version of HMF. Like 12/minute eventually.

[vapid gorge]

this unit took in 36 ppm and spat out 10.6 mod frames pm for HMF factory. Lots of screws

[unique cypress]

Eh, bolted frame with cast screw makes barely any difference vs default, both in resource cost and machine count. At that point you're better off using iron pipe and steeled frame. Same iron cost, way fewer machines, easier logistics

[wind spade]

saves decent amount of power

[unique cypress]

Steeled frame? It does

[wind spade]

bolted frame + bolted plate

[unique cypress]

With cast screw? Nope

[wind spade]

yes, with cast screw

and even without, for that matter

[unique cypress]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=1ODqN9dr5rqEIzb4Nsft

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=Gmx1A4XgWqVConpqabWr

[wind spade]

I'm not talking about steeled frame

given the point was bolted+bolted vs default

[unique cypress]

That's what you meant

I compared it to steeled too so I thought you meant bolted takes less power than steeled

[wind spade]

no I was replying to yours

Eh, bolted frame with cast screw makes barely any difference vs default

[versed violet]

Funny, once I am done, my uranium fuel rod factory will be using all three modes of failure.

[unique cypress]

I have a comparison to steeled in the exact same message so I literally had no way to tell what you're comparing it to

[fierce ruin]

I'm using draw.io now to map out factories. What symbol is best to convey a splitter?

Rectangles, cubes, and the file-lookin' thing are in use

[wind spade]

do you need to plan splitters?

[plucky tusk]

Diamond

[quick gorge]

Holy shit Draw.io

[fierce ruin]

Yeah

I want to plan everything

[wind spade]

what for?

at that point just plan it in the game, much faster

[vapid gorge]

honestly, just build, it'll come naturally very quickly with a bit of practice

also that - you're given a 3d planning tool in the game

[fierce ruin]

Wait, there's a 3d planning tool?

[quick gorge]

It's called the game

[vapid gorge]

yes? it's called 'placing machines down and seeing if you like it'

[fierce ruin]

I just want to make sure that this entire factory is at 100% efficiency

[vapid gorge]

that's what the math planners do

[fierce ruin]

I want to be proud of a 100% perfect factory

[wind spade]

any online planner can do that for you

[vapid gorge]

and then you just create a layout on how you like it

[fierce ruin]

Not in the way I tried to earlier. They couldn't do multiple recipes, or combine outputs frm things, and whatever else

[plucky tusk]

Just do what you want man these guys are always haters

Like i was saying

[vapid gorge]

make another tab if you want multiple recipes.

[plucky tusk]

Diamonds and circles would be cool for merger/splitter

[fierce ruin]

I used diamonds for splitters because of your suggestion. They look nice

We shall see where mergers come in

[plucky tusk]

Triangle could be good too

Then save circle for ss or whatever

Or triangle ss

[versed violet]

Blueprint designers?
If you ran out of space, there are mods, from large to ridiculous.

[quick gorge]

Pist, how do I make a balancer where the input is 10200 and the outputs need to be 9 belts of 1133.333... each?

[ruby shoal]

Does anyone know why my power is fluctuating like this?

[unique cypress]

You can't put 10200 on a single belt

[quick gorge]

No shit

I have several belts coming in

[unique cypress]

How many then? I'm not a mind-reader

[quick gorge]

I am compressing them as they connect on their way to their destination so most likely going to end up with 8 full belts along with the 600 on a final 9th belt

[unique cypress]

Then you only need a 9:9 then. Simple

Do you know how to make a 3:3 balancer?

[astral geyser]

Perhaps a balancer like this tailored for your specific needs might work? This is my first one I did yesterday as I haven't really done too much with them in the past.

Note: this is a 5:4 balancer. This is also done on 1.1 Experimental as well.

[quick gorge]

Do I just need to glue a couple 3:3 balancers together?
I think I might have just overthought it 😅

[quick gorge]

Neat use of verticals there

[unique cypress]

Yeah, 6 or 9 depending on whether it needs to be a TU or not

Yours use case doesn't so 6 will be enough

[astral geyser]

Thanks! Can't take credit for this. Watched a YT video and pretty much ripped the whole design and matched it for my needs.

[unique cypress]

Arrange them in 2 sets of 3, most convent would be if one would be 3 stacked horizontal ones and the other 3 vertical ones side by side

[quick gorge]

This is also what I'm actually doing with it
I have just brought all of the right side to the final point at the south. Needing to the other side but thought I'd take a break and make the balancer

[unique cypress]

Then make it like a 3:3, but treating each 3:3 in the 9:9 like a splitter or a merger in a 3:3

That is the every 3:3 from the first layer connected to every 3:3 from the second layer

[quick gorge]

Okays got it! It was simpler then I thought it would be 🙃

[unique cypress]

If you wanted a 10:9 it wouldn't be (:

But equal numbers of inputs and outputs are simple

[quick gorge]

Well I'm merging the belts as they come down the spine of that image

[unique cypress]

Also, if you use a balancer, you don't need 9x 1133.33

They can be anything you want as long as the total is 10200 and none of them are more than 1200

[quick gorge]

I know but I want 1133.3333 going into those 9 belts

[unique cypress]

Weird number but you do you

[plucky tusk]

Real

[quick gorge]

I'm going to have a loop of belts all processing this into reanimated and having them injecting a belt at regular intervals

[unique cypress]

I'd have 4 lines of 10 constructors and 5 lines of 9 (assuming all at 100%)

You don't need injection if you do a balancer

[quick gorge]

The balancer is behind the curtain, the injection is for the show

And having 8 full belts and half a belt with that would make it look wrong so they must be equal to make the effect land

[plucky tusk]

I was gonna say why not just get 9 belts of 1133.3333 and do 1-1. clock speeds might be hard

But pures you should be able to set

Just merging normals and impures

[fierce ruin]

The chart is kindof done. All of the connections are finished. I didn't put the miners and ores on, but those aren't that important for the chart

[plucky tusk]

Nice

[quick gorge]

Quick doodie, have all 34 constructors on the inside of ring equally spaced out and have the injection at these points, I will have having overflow splitters so it won't get too weird

It's for the aesthetic

[unique cypress]

Aesthetic? What's that? Does it make my factory produce more items?

[quick gorge]

cough
something something dopamine factory

yes

Compact 3x3 belts to go into the Aesthetic™️

[fierce ruin]

It is done

https://tenor.com/view/sad-kitty-crying-kitty-crying-sobbing-crying-cat-gif-14392979951653211058

[quick gorge]

Yeah the radar is going on

[fierce ruin]

The radar?

[quick gorge]

👀

[fierce ruin]

This factory is going to take so much space. I'm not sure where to put it.

[quick gorge]

Like the gays have the gaydar, my tismdar is going on :p

[fierce ruin]

I think somewhere in this area.

[quick gorge]

Dunes is a classic place to pave over

[fierce ruin]

It's just kinda difficult because you don't wanna block any nodes

[quick gorge]

Build a playform above them

[fallow siren]

every place are large enough if you pave them

[quick gorge]

Pave it
... I mean prove it

1/9 Arrrrrghh routing these over the map takes forever

Seems to be working :P
Good I didn't fuck it up

[fallow siren]

too late

[quick gorge]

There's quite a lot of not paved things there

[fierce ruin]

The top is the portion of the factory already built. The bottom is the amount to be built. I was feeling good, then I zoomed out 😿

I'm putting in ore lines last because they're all just gonna be manifold-ed in

[prisma kraken]

woohoo, the first 45/min

[viral sparrow]

what an interesting planner

[hasty raft]

how do i know how much empty cans i need so the packagers can just recycle them

[oblique hollow]

Per minute, or item count?

Because the second one depends on how you set up the belts to recycle the cans

If you make a big loop where all canisters go on the same belt:
Thousands

If you make closed loops per machine:
50 or so could suffice per loop, it depends on belt speed

[hasty raft]

oh yeah belt speed

i need 1600 empty cans per min i only have 480 as my max belt speed

i think i just need to make a loop per 8 packager?

[oblique hollow]

Make a loop for every single packager if you are doing diluted packaged fuel

[hasty raft]

i dont combine them?

[oblique hollow]

If this is something else, you likely have no real alternative but to use a container full of canisters

[oblique hollow]

Its better not to

[hasty raft]

why is that

[oblique hollow]

Because it takes less that way

The item routing will otherwise make this a whole lot more inefficient as canisters pile up inside machines and on belts

1:1 closed loops are also preferred because you can blueprint them

Packagers save the canisters you put into them when you save the blueprint

[hasty raft]

oooo

i was thinking the logistics would be difficult, but i could just send belts underground and up again to the packager

thanks for the help and ideas

[fallow siren]

dont centralize the belt, have it separate to their own loop system

and make the bp for it so you just do it in one click

this is my packaged loop bp

[hasty raft]

can you show what it looks like when there are a lot of those units, like side by side

[fallow siren]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932761153703149659/1360843848418463874/image.png?ex=68281998&is=6826c818&hm=c3fc3099518e2c1c4aebc20e775fec9a5ace11fe231c5c7a6238d1742ae68932&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932761153703149659/1360897957578145792/image.png?ex=68284bfd&is=6826fa7d&hm=03b84ccfc8b0dc527ed7aab490b0fa243952f94f5ac5faa7e75db6225c6dbb9c&

[hasty raft]

looks amazing

im def copying that xd

[fallow siren]

just dont forget to shove the empty canister inside the packager

in bp

[unique cypress]

You can also use packaged fuel in the bp if you already have that in the depot

Also also, if you're doing individual loops like that, you don't need an entire stack. My usual setup only needs ~16, though the exact amount depends on the length of the loop

[hasty raft]

i have a lot of empty cans

i could probably fill like the 27 packagers ill put down

[prisma kraken]

with packaging loops, the number of empties you need is enough to get the packagers full, and that varies based on the number of machines in the loop, the length of the belts and just in general the amount of belt and buffer space there is in your system. What i usually do instead of mathing it out is set up an ISC with a merger into the system and fill it with empties.... if the ISC ends up being empty, i add more. If you are packaging to move liquid or gas via drone, you might want to have that empty storage in-line with the drone's output port to absorb the empties and get them out of the drone port quickly so the drone can take off when it has a load of full containers

[oblique hollow]

If you make a BP for DPF with one to one loops and you use the fastest belts you have, usually its enough to have like 20 to 40

[unique cypress]

Well if you do it this way, you can ore much assume you'll need 5 stacks per refinery - every slot except the fuel unpackager's output full of full or empty canisters

But if you're not a masochist and don't merge canisters from multiple loops, then you usually only need 10-30 per refinery, depending on the length of the loop. If you use mk1 belts for it, you might need more, so don't

[prisma kraken]

yeah, there's games you can play that simplify it all, for sure.

the thing that takes an ungodly number of cannisters is when you're making a big dilluted fuel build with the refinery recipe

but smaller loops = better, i agree

[solemn vapor]

i think trucks are the current meta

[wind spade]

meta is "use what suits your case"

[solemn vapor]

drones number 1

[opaque quartz]

All logistics methods have their merits

[snow maple]

trucks are good for when you want to see your materials fly carefree through the sky at the slightest bump in the road

[plucky tusk]

Just make a road with no bumps

[oblique hollow]

just dont build roads

[plucky tusk]

Just dont do anything

Dont use any of the game mechanics

[quick gorge]

Just hand craft everything like a chad

[oblique hollow]

(built) roads suck. Plain fact.
Dirt roads are better

[plucky tusk]

Stuck in p1 cuz you cant handcraft spelevator parts

[wind zinc]

2 phase 4 parts done
time for the last 2

[wind zinc]

built roads can look cooler though

😎

[oblique hollow]

If they work like ass its kinda a failed effort

[wind zinc]

i thought the only issue was building them

[quick gorge]

And we're not in #design-and-architecture

[wind zinc]

😭

[fierce ruin]

This is the one and only bit of overclocking in this factory that has about seventy machines running

[plain rivet]

not enough room for one more machine? spending a shard to get 4% makes my eye twitch

[fierce ruin]

I have 200 shards sitting in the box by the hub, I'll be fine :3

[plain rivet]

that's what i thought until i built a rocket fuel power plant

[fierce ruin]

Update: Just got to make the stators now!

This factory is producing basically everything possible prior to unlocking oil

[wind spade]

given that shards are practically infinite 🤷

[plain rivet]

i just used 450 of them. i had to go get more slugs

i wouldn't use them for 1%. i just wouldn't

infinite or not

🤷

[sullen phoenix]

Which one would you guys suggest? (I'm a beginner).

[wind spade]

whichever fits you (I wouldn't suggest ever using injected manifold, just do separate manifolds)

all of them (and any other belt combination) will eventually work the same

[sullen phoenix]

Understood. Also, reason for not using injected manifold?

[unique cypress]

if you do it wrong, it doesn't work

[wind spade]

unnecessary complicated and does the same thing as two (or more) separate manifolds

and separate manifolds make your factory more modular 🙂

[sullen phoenix]

Understood, I'll stick with the normal and double manifolds.

[fierce ruin]

It is now done

...Kindof

I still need to configure where the end products actually go, and the ores aren't configured

But all of the production lines are done

[sullen phoenix]

@wind spade I currently have these setups in my base.

[tulip thorn]

One of my factories i've used the injected manifold basically all through, it does add a little more complexity but it saved a bit of time by not having the separate lines & machines to compensate for another full lead

oop, replied to the wrong person. Sorry Greeny!

[opaque quartz]

IMHO there’s no reason to put storage containers inline in your production chains, especially not for ore. Match up your inputs and outputs so that production is running continuously, which will render those storage containers moot

[restive sparrow]

Hell, in situations where you put the same class belt into and out of a container while the downstream system is using up all of the parts at full belt speed if you look into the container it will look empty (notably this happens in a container buffer at a train station while the platform fills).

[sullen phoenix]

Okok.

[opaque quartz]

Learning how to match up inputs and outputs is a critical skill to learn early, will be needed throughout the rest of the game 👍

[sullen phoenix]

Aight.

[shadow totem]

Trying to use the github balancer software and got this layout as the result. Is this 60 split even possible? Seems like its coming out of nowhere

[wind spade]

looks fine

what do you need balancers for though? manifolds just solve everything 😛

[shadow totem]

Trying to balance my inputs for a train station because of how poorly I set up my unloading station lol

[wind spade]

imo there's no reason to balance train station, just use each platform separately

what you put in on one side, you get on the other side

so if first 2 platforms get 480 and then 3 platforms get 450, then build two 480 manifolds and three 450 manifolds and hook them accordingly

[quick gorge]

hides my 9-9 balancer

[shadow totem]

So I thought it'd be cool to make this fancy belt line, which I am now realizing that its completely unnecessary. Each line requires 480 iron per min and I wasn't sure if using a manifold option would work for this

[wind spade]

manifolds always work 🙂

[amber umbra]

Balancers do have their uses for train stations. The above pic, situation doesn't seem to need them.

[wind spade]

I just explained above that balancers don't have use for train station 😛

[shadow totem]

Thanks for saving me a solid 2 hours 😭 🙏

[quick gorge]

-# Not for what I want

[unique cypress]

Nah, a balancer is required if you want maximum train throughput in any situation

Also, they're quite useful for managing multiple belts/manifolds of one item

[quick gorge]

And then there is what I'm using it for :>
I think it will look nice

[sullen phoenix]

How many constructors (for concrete) can one normal limestone Mk1 Miner efficiently provide?

[unique cypress]

1⅓ if both miner and constructors are at 100% speed

[solemn vapor]

is it more efficient for my factory to look organised? because rn im about to finish phase 4 and there are about 200 conveyor belts going through each other in multiple different places. but other than looking bad it doesnt seem to be slowing down progress.

[vapid gorge]

Look at the recipe and look at miner output. Then divide

[vapid gorge]

Wdym by ‘more efficient?

[sullen phoenix]

I did it, all good.

[solemn vapor]

like would it help me in any way basically (other than just looking better)

[sullen phoenix]

Yes. If there's a problem in the production line, it'll be easier to spot.

Unless you have spaghetti lines.

[vapid gorge]

You might find things easier? Bout it

But if you’ve got spag prob don’t worry about efficiency, just build and unlock stuff

[solemn vapor]

ok

[sullen phoenix]

What are the dimensions of the Space Elevator? I want to build it over a foundation.

[quick gorge]

7x7 foundation

Give or take

[sullen phoenix]

Understood. Will build 9x9 for safety.

[vapid gorge]

!wikisearch space_elevator

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=space_elevator

[vapid gorge]

dimensions for all buildings on wiki

[digital spade]

How many fuel generators can 300 turbofuel/min. support?

[opaque quartz]

How much turbo fuel does a single generator use?

[digital spade]

I found it, I think
7.5/min

So a 250% overclocked generator should use 18.75 turbo fuel/min

So 16 generators

Guess I’ve answered my own question lmao

[prisma kraken]

something you may wish to think about is whether you're going to later convert it over to rocket fuel, build the generators needed for that and underclock the turbofuel in them. It reserves the space ahead of time.

[prisma kraken]

half way done

[digital spade]

Holy sh-
Maybe I don't need all 16 generators right now

I really slept on turbofuel last time I played

I can build like 8 fuel generators and the rest can be later converted to rocket fuel

[deft lichen]

there's no reason to balance them evenly, but if you had e.g. a belt with 120 and another with 480, it would make sense to balance them somehow, just in case 480 would be too much to for the train to handle

they should be roughly the same

[wind spade]

a train platform can in 99% of cases handle one belt

[deft lichen]

that depends entirely on the round trip duration

and also stack size

[wind spade]

not really, I'm talking about platform

you just add extra train if trip is too long

[deft lichen]

I'd rather add more freight cars than more trains

(because there is no system for unbunching)

[wind spade]

also valid 🤷

[deft lichen]

my point was that if the belts are spread somewhat evenly, it might save on the amount of freight cars (or by extension trains) needed

(given the calculation is based on the platform with the most I/O, and spreading it evenly reduces that number)

[unique cypress]

There very much is a reason to balance all platforms. If you want to set the train to only depart when empty/full, having the platforms load/unload unevenly will slow it down significantly and harm throughput.

[unique cypress]

There is. Depart when empty/full

[wind spade]

you don't want to be running close to limit anyway, so "harm throughput" doesn't seem much relevant

[deft lichen]

that's true, I guess I never found a good way to properly utilize the timetable settings

[unique cypress]

With depart when empty/full, you absolutely can get right to the limit and achieve it consistently

[deft lichen]

pretty much the only time I used them was to reduce the frequency trains run at, by having them wait until they're empty

[unique cypress]

All of my trains are set to that

[wind spade]

sure, but then train delay happens and your production is suddenly inefficient

[unique cypress]

Nope

It would have to be very long

[wind spade]

yes. If a train is delayed (and was running at limit or close to it), the buffer will empty and there will be no resources for a while

[unique cypress]

It would have to be delayed beyond one "bottlenecked by the platform" time and into "bottlenecked by train capacity" time

A small delay won't affect it

[deft lichen]

if you always have another train on the way to replace the one waiting to depart, it should work

[unique cypress]

Unless you're talking about being at the limit both in throughput and in distance, then a small delay would hurt it

[deft lichen]

allowing you to get very, very close to the limit, practically ignoring waiting on signals

the limit itself is unreachable due to the I/O lockout

[unique cypress]

When I'm talking about the limit, I am taking into account the loading pause

[wind spade]

I'm aware how lockout works 🙂

my point is that if practical limit of the line is 1200 and you're running at 1180, then a delay can temporary render your production inefficient

[thorn bane]

full throughput is:
2248 for 500 stack
2053 for 200 stack
1793 for 100 stack
1431 for 50 stack
897m³ for fluids

[wind spade]

I know 🙂 but that assumes ideal conditions. Which is why I said "practical limit". And the 1200 was just a random number picked as an example

[thorn bane]

well the issue is that every train adds a lockout so its actually bad to have the trains unload too often

[thorn bane]

ye
1200/min should be fine though even for very bad hickups

[wind spade]

the situation I was talking about is when one train is not enough

aka buffers fill/empty before another train arrives

[deft lichen]

if you have multiple trains, you must use timetable rules so that trains wait until they can unload and run as infrequently as possible

[wind spade]

which is part of the "use one train, one belt per platform, add another train if one isn't enough" recommendation I give for simple and easy start with trains

in most cases one train will be enough, but for some longer journeys, it won't

[thorn bane]

what i mean is if 1 train gets delayed but the second one doesnt then it will arrive will the station isnt fully unloaded, creating more lockouts than intended

[thorn bane]

i still dont understand why we dont have wait until empy

[deft lichen]

we don't?

[thorn bane]

no only wait until full

afaik
havent checked in a while though

so your best bet is to assume that the time from filling until unload is constant
except that it isnt

[fallow siren]

i never set my train to wait until full, i always set to load as soon as they arrived at station

[thorn bane]

but thats always true even if it only unloads half the storage right?
it wont wait untill it gets fully unload

[thorn bane]

issue is if you have 2 trains
then the second one might only pick up a few items

[deft lichen]

you can use "freight wagon is fully unloaded" to make the train wait until one freight car is empty, so that it doesn't run when it doesn't have to and cause traffic, but that's entirely optional
otherwise, it's only needed if you have multiple trains on the same line

[wind spade]

and yeah, if you don't want to do multiple partial loads, just don't set any waits, trains will just circle around

[fallow siren]

i just add more wagon so 1 train is enough for full throughput

[unique cypress]

Green one is for depart only when empty/full, red is for one load/unload

[fallow siren]

1 train with 8 wagons picking up 600/min, overkill but it will never be full

[unique cypress]

As long as you stay on the left side of the "depart when empty/full", you can always get max throughput

[wind spade]

doesn't partial (un)loading happen, when there's not enough space in destination/not enough resoruces in source? which creates multiple animations, so multiple lockouts?

[thorn bane]

can somone confirm if wait untill empty actually works?

[unique cypress]

With default settings yes, with depart when empty/full, no

That's the entire point

[wind spade]

but with default settings, the train doesn't wait, just unloads what it can and leaves, right?

so it doesn't do multiple lockouts either

[unique cypress]

Per train, no

Per full wagon's worth of items, yes

Depart when empty/full does exactly one animation per entire wagon

[wind spade]

sure, but it only does that if the buffer is full, which means that you have enough resources in destination, which means you don't need the extra throughput

[unique cypress]

Or it hasn't emptied yet?

You could be pulling items out of the platforms as fast as possible and if the train arrives early, it'll wait until the platform is empty

[wind spade]

which is why my suggestion is to start with one train and add another only if the first one isn't enough 🤷

[thorn bane]

ehm
i just unlocked trains
after finishing phase 5
and now im supposed to supply 50 smart plating?

[unique cypress]

If you do that with default train settings, you might end up with less throughput

[wind spade]

which is fine given that I'm not aiming for max throughput, but for one belt throughput

[unique cypress]

If they bunch up, you get 2 loading pauses for barley more than 1 wagon of items

Eventually you'll go below 1 belt too

Probably not with 2 trains, but if you just keep adding if it's "not enough", eventually you will

[wind spade]

2 trains can handle practically anything

unless you're doing scenic route around the whole island

even 1 train handles most of reasonable journeys

[thorn bane]

not if they arrive at the same time
also not with mk6 belts

[wind spade]

2 trains on one route, not arriving at the same time

[thorn bane]

well thats the issue that kyo297 has you cant make them not arrive at the same time
its random
depends on signals etc.

also 1200 items per minute is a car every 2min40
thats not "scenic"

[wind spade]

that'd mean that one train would have to stop for half of round trip time during one trip

[unique cypress]

If they're 20 wagons long, maybe

I actually needed 4 2-6 trains once

[thorn bane]

or it just shifts by 5s every trip
after some hours its fucked

[wind spade]

that's 4800 meters of distance at 120km/h

(yes, acceleration and stuff)

[thorn bane]

• loading/unloading

[wind spade]

it resets due to full load

[unique cypress]

Yeah, half a minute each

[wind spade]

still that's like reasonable 2km, which is around the most you need reasonably

meaning "not moving everything to one place"

[unique cypress]

Most of my train routes are 5-7 minutes round trip

[thorn bane]

nvm ignore me just tested it and it works as described (wait until full unload)
i guess they changed it and i havent tried trains in a while

[edgy leaf]

actually you can decide the time between train arrivals with sub second accuracy 100% of the time

[thorn bane]

sooo with wait untill empty cant you get full theoretical throughput by just adding extra trains?

[thorn bane]

wait how

[edgy leaf]

by using the timer in the station. i have set my trains to always wait X seconds, and i have it set up in a way that theres always a train waiting behind the one currently in the station while it leaves

[thorn bane]

i mean sure but then you might as well wait until full right? xD

[edgy leaf]

i think if you have multiple inputs and outputs in the same line then waiting until full would be problematic

but if its a single output or a single input then wait until full should also work and be easier

[fallow siren]

all problem eliminated if you neevr do full wagon

[thorn bane]

although it does seem like the bug where it only picks up 31 full stacks and some items for the 32rd stack is still in the game
guess have to keep that in mind for max throughput

[edgy leaf]

not really, with certain setups it can be very tricky

[thorn bane]

oh ye i was thinking for single item trains

[unique cypress]

Yes, you can

[fallow siren]

been doing this for my entire train experience, set the train to load/unload once arrived at station, never get a single problem

[edgy leaf]

i also mean single item trains. even single item trains can have multiple loading and unloading stations

[thorn bane]

the wait until full is mainly for full throughput trains
like 2000/min per car etc.

[thorn bane]

ooooh i see so not A->B->A trains but with C/D?

[unique cypress]

I do it for all trains because it decreases traffic

[thorn bane]

oh true that aswell

[edgy leaf]

yea possibly. lets say you have 2 places where u collect iron and two factories that need iron. you COULD make two different train lines but then you need to split it up and eh, not really my cup of tea.

i transport 600 oil per minute in fluid train cars, for it to work my round trip time needs to be between 54.16 and 160 seconds

if its lower or higher than this i dont get enough oil

[unique cypress]

Each of my factories has its own supply of everything

[thorn bane]

oh right i wanted to calculate max throughput for fluids

[unique cypress]

It's just stack side 50 belt speed 300/600

[edgy leaf]

maximum throughput for fluids is 896.3 roughly

[unique cypress]

Unfortunately fluids can't be balanced so you can't get really that across multiple platforms at once

Unless they're all separate and perfectly balanced with supply/demand, and not a balancer

[edgy leaf]

wdym fluids cant be balanced?

fluids balance themselves

[unique cypress]

Nope

I had issues with my nitrogen train because some tanks would drain before others and starve my factory when all but one was empty

Had to package it or disable depart when empty/full

[fallow siren]

id rather just packaged those nitrogen

[unique cypress]

That's exactly what I did

[wind spade]

exactly why I recommend to never balance cars, just have each car separate 😛

[unique cypress]

6-7x throughput let's go!

[unique cypress]

But then I'd have to do more math

[thorn bane]

fuck doing math

[unique cypress]

I like doing math. But only if it's difficult and I only have to do it once

[wind spade]

no? just treat the train as a belt

[unique cypress]

Doing basic ass calculations over and over again is boring

[unique cypress]

Exactly. If I did that, I'd have to do math

[wind spade]

what you put in first platform, you get in first platform

no math needed

[thorn bane]

except he does balancers for belts as well xD

[unique cypress]

Exactly. Because otherwise I'd have to do math

Because my belts are rarely equal or matched

[thorn bane]

well the issue is if you have have >belt speed items and you need to split it

[wind spade]

which is easier math than having to figure out weird numbers after balancer

[unique cypress]

I only have to make a balancer once

After that, I can just paste a blueprint for the number of belts

[wind spade]

if you have more than one belt, you have more than one platform. Each platform gets one belt

[wind spade]

and you still need same amount of resources flowing in to have the same math

meanwhile if belts are separate, you just copy-paste the number you get from a planner and use that

[thorn bane]

well you need less trains if you compact it first
and building train stations is tedious af so id rather use the minimum

[unique cypress]

Ok, I have 150, 300, and 480 in and want 122.7, 425.45 and 381.85

[wind spade]

why do you "want" those numbers?

[unique cypress]

How do I do that with 1-1 connections?

[unique cypress]

Because that's what a calculator gave me for 3 different items

[wind spade]

separate the plans, get separate numbers, use those

[unique cypress]

But that's more work than just using a balancer lmao

That's the whole fucking point of using them

[wind spade]

no?

[thorn bane]

using a balancer is literally 1 click if you have a blueprint

[wind spade]

you have to put three things into the planner anyway. Whether you put it in same or different tab doesn't change the "difficulty" of putting it there

[unique cypress]

Not if I'm planning HMFs and those different things are its different ingredients

Like iron ingots going into rods for mod frames, iron plates for RIPs and iron pipe for Encased Pipe and Encased HMFs

What, do I split each step into a different tab?

[wind spade]

that's just a ratio then

X:Y:Z ratio of ingots, X:Y:Z ratio of machines making ingots

[unique cypress]

Yeah, and then X:Y:Z ratio of ore

[wind spade]

ore gets manifolded

[unique cypress]

... which I get from 2 miners with different node putites

[wind spade]

each belt goes to X smelters, X being the amount it can feed

[unique cypress]

Brother, stop defending your point. Everything you're listing here is just more planning

I'm using a balancer to avoid doing that

Because a balancer doesn't care about exact numbers, only the total

[wind spade]

so I can't defend my point and you can?

alright, no reason to continue this, I'm out, gotta go to shop

[unique cypress]

I'm saying that a balancer is less math

And you're listing more math to prove that it isn't

You're literally just proving my point

[oblique hollow]

thats what you can use valves for.

But for gas - yes, big exception.
Doesnt play well with the way trains work at all

buffers cannot be used to sustain the flow rate at max reasonably as buffers output proportionally to how full they are

as opposed to liquids where they output at max flow if they are above the minimum fluid level of 75 or 300 m³

Honestly, i kinda wanna see someone transport Photonic Matter by train lol

[prime forum]

Don't valves do weird stuff because last time I tried to use one it kept randomly changing the flow rate and like not working at all

[deft lichen]

aren't all T9 setups closed loops?

you shouldn't ever be expected to transport the quantum substances long distance

[thorn bane]

hey lets use our AI Expansion Server dark matter residue and ship it by train to ficsonium rod production
what could possibly go wrong

[oblique hollow]

valves fluctuate if their input pipe isnt full.
If you had it on a pipe coming out of a junction with 2 exits, BOTH need a valve

you can never valve only 1 exit out of a junction

every single pipe coming out of a junction needs a valve at some point

either the network is small enough where you can get away with valves only on the exits into machines or something
or you have to put valves on everything

this for example. Only works well once every single pipe going into a valve is filled

but usually, you would need to do something like this:

this is stupid however and i do not approve of it

valves work best if you dont need many

if you need an uneven (or an even 50/50) split out of a junction like... once, this is fine:

[unique cypress]

Flat junction split 50/50 I noticed

[amber umbra]

I see the train setups, balancers discussion proceeded as expected.

[quick gorge]

Womp womp

[amber umbra]

Is Greeny’s concept just doing the simplified belt -> ISU -> platform -> train -> platform -> ISU -> belt without any additional fancier things? That’s essentially the 1-1 train style. And then adding additional wagons/platforms in parallel with the same concept?

If yes, that style definitely has no use for balancers.

The whole niche for balancers is when you have not that simplified setup.

[opaque quartz]

welp, I did another completely unnecessary thing just because I could. retrofitted the APM production onto my power shard/ionized fuel factory, using the byproduct compacted coal for the steel ingots for the SAM fluctuators. my power network was already at 315 GW, using less than half of that, but adding the boosted APA nets me another ~95 GW

[plucky tusk]

Nice

[sullen phoenix]

Just unlocked coal power. How many coal power plants per water extractor?

What's the ratio?

[crimson moat]

3:8, but i recommend underclocking the generators to 88.8888 so that you can do much simpler 1:3 piping. That way a module of 3 generators consumes exactly 120 water (1 extractor @ 100%) and 40 coal.

#math-and-meta message

[wind spade]

both coal power plant and water extractor give you the numbers

[sullen phoenix]

Should I do it like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYE0SKB9Xk4

[crimson moat]

Just see the post that i linked you to here, it has pics and discussion. It's a better layout

[sullen phoenix]

I'm sorry if I'm bothering you too much.

[deft lichen]

why would you underclock the generators instead of the extractors 😭 😭

[sullen phoenix]

Ok.

[crimson moat]

nps just wrote it all before 😄

[wind spade]

I'd recommend not following any videos, instead check the machines, they tell you all the info, and experiment yourself

you'll learn much more that way, than when you get your answers spoiled by video (or people on discord)

[crimson moat]

1:2 with underclocked water extractors is around 40% wider, and more buildings.

[sullen phoenix]

Okayy

[deft lichen]

as if you were to use the footprint for anything else

3:8 is easily tilable

[crimson moat]

It is, but there are a lot of possible newbie mistakes with building 3:8 pipes and people often get stuck on them for hours.

It is basically impossible to screw up the design that i posted, and it follows excellent building practices with being as simple and independant as reasonably possible & having minimal pipe length/connections to do the job at peak resource efficiency.

[frosty owl]

Doing the opposite is like trying to learn driving by reading manuals first and then going on the road without even trying out some moves in an empty lot

[sullen phoenix]

There's a giraffe penguin standing on my miner.

Should I just let him be or...

Or will he damage my stuff lol

[frosty owl]

It does not affect the machines' efficiency, but it may affect your efficiency as it detracts your attention from expanding your factory...

[sullen phoenix]

I mean yeah.

It's HUGE

[frosty owl]

Some pioneers even end up wasting precious building time making pictures and posts or even memes out of them.
How despicable

[unique cypress]

Why would you underclock anything

[crimson moat]

To massage the extractor:gen ratio in order to have a simpler and more unbreakable design without stuttering gens

[unique cypress]

All of my coal gen setups for the past few years were 6 ex 16 gen setups

Placed maybe 2 or 3 times depending on the nodes nearby

[crimson moat]

Yeah, but piping 8 or 16 generators together with multiple extractors in a single "unit" makes for a much more complex unit than 3 gens on 1 extractor, and it's much easier to a newbie to make mistakes which break it and are difficult to diagnose

[unique cypress]

They all worked fine.

I didn't even need to fix anything

they all just worked

[crimson moat]

They can work, but they often don't due to mistakes made with the additional complexity.

There is a huge difference between "can work if XYZ are correct" and "cannot fail" - which i try to bridge with designs like this.

My first and second coal plants were 3:8, and the second one broke for reasons that i couldn't figure out for hours - especially puzzling as the first one with basically the same design did flow properly.

I've helped dozens of people since who made the same mistakes.

I recommend this way now, and i've never seen anybody manage to break it in any way.

having less complexity instead of more is a design constraint, and win

i see no way to further simplify without huge inefficiency

For example, 1 extractor = 1 gen is simpler and uses less power, BUT it makes the powerplant 2-3x larger. It means that the lake at the grassy plains with its 480 coal can only support about 240-360 coal worth of gens instead of 720+, and you have to really squeeze them in. I don't consider that worthwhile.

[sonic ether]

Beanie cannot harm anything and will randomly walk in/out/around your factory areas. They can be killed but do not give any alien protein or anything you can use - plus they are fun to bounce on when you get the chance!

[wind spade]

it's also much better for a newbie to learn stuff on, so I'd still recommend 3:8

[oblique hollow]

If they can clock, teach em that 1:2

If they cant, teach em the 3:8 ratio

But i kinda doubt they need to be taught 1:2 if they unlocked clocking

[crimson moat]

II consider it an important lesson too on how simplicity works & is important

[oblique hollow]

Or just... ask them what they wanna do

[crimson moat]

complexity, when not required, is generally a very bad thing

[wind spade]

3:8 is hardly complex

[oblique hollow]

"Wanna learn the more complex proper ratio or the simplified ratio that takes some more space"

[wind spade]

or even better - "check the numbers and try coming up with a solution"

[thorn bane]

except i would not recommend to have more than 300 (or 600) in 1 fluid network except for coal gens, so its kinda learning the wrong stuff

[wind spade]

and I wouldn't not recommend it 🤷

and there's no "wrong" way to play anyway

[thorn bane]

well there is
its when your stuff doesnt work lol

[crimson moat]

There are objectively good and bad design principles that somebody may want to optimise for, and there are objectively more or less failsafe build options

[wind spade]

3:8 works though, so it's not "wrong"

and some people enjoy playing in a less optimised fashion, doesn't make them wrong

[crimson moat]

why are you on here arguing that people are doing it wrong every time somebody asks for helps with pipes, then?

nobody else said that anything was "wrong", or tried to start a debate around it

[wind spade]

so its kinda learning the wrong stuff

I'm replying because someone said there's a wrong way

[crimson moat]

fair, i do agree with them though that making a module to move 360/min out of 300/min pipes is a terrible idea that is probably best off not being learned. There's always a better way, even if it technically can work with enough conditions correct.

[wind spade]

the thing you learn is that it doesn't matter about the total flow needed in a system, but what matters is required flow through given pipe

[crimson moat]

and that's incredibly complicated to model or calculate due to backflow problems in fluid manifolds, hence breaking for seemingly nonsensical reasons much of the time - and a bad idea to learn as a habit because of that.

[wind spade]

3:8 setups are incredibly stable, because they do not reach pipe limits

[unique cypress]

Like I said earlier, all my coal setups are 16:6. 4 sets of 4 gens, all along one pipe, 8 on each side, 2 extractors in one end, 2 in the middle, 2 in the other end. It has never failed me

[wind spade]

for coal setups you don't need any deep knowledge of the backflow things and stuff

[crimson moat]

You can make 16:6 designs that work. You also can, easily and accidentally, make 16:6 designs that don't - and often for reasons that you can't identify easily, if at all. Especially for a newer player.

Peeps on here who study pipes for 100hrs can't model them in a fully accurate way yet.

[wind spade]

you can make belt setups that don't work 🤷 but it's always a learning experience

much better than blindly following advices, not knowing why or why not

[unique cypress]

99% of the time I see a 3:8 setup that doesn't work it's because they put all 3 extractors through one pipe

No, actually, probably like 90

[wind spade]

headlift issues are also common

[unique cypress]

then 9% because people didn't use pumps

[wind spade]

but headlift doesn't care about 3:8 vs 1:2

[crimson moat]

I advocate for zero headlift designs for simplicity and unbreakability

[unique cypress]

I always put extractors underneath anything I'm building

So they always need pumps

[crimson moat]

and i have also seen, both personally and in helping people, other problems with 3:8 manifolds that weren't built within functional standards on all criteria that are neccesary for them to work properly. In particular, accidental flow prioritisation and also backflow that was not correctly modelled/mitigated have both causes pipe flowrate limits to be exceeded by themselves, let alone together.

Zero headlift means no headlift issue. One extractor on any pipe network means no prioritisation issues. Equal split on any junction and max 40% of flow rate capacity flowing through any pipe avoids manifold backflow and insufficient capacity issues.

[oblique hollow]

you can run into all kinds of issues no matter what really.

If you dont run into it during your first encounter with pipes, you probably will later on

no head lift now? well it will probably be relevant later

[crimson moat]

There are a lot of issues to run into with fluids, especially with fluid manifolds, but some designs are almost if not literally unbreakable while others are barely hanging on to function with no (or negative) margin on multiple aspects of design criteria.

[wind spade]

better to learn earlier

[oblique hollow]

theres always the issue of mountig stuff on the wrong way around or a connection not actually being there

[wind spade]

I'd rather teach people about the issues that they may run into, and how to troubleshoot them, rather than telling them one way to build things and forbidding them to explore all the options

[crimson moat]

I would argue for learning what is neccesary, when it's neccesary - and then employing it only when it is neccesary, rather than in every build henceforth. Much easier to learn and understand that way as you get higher quality feedback from the game, and bitesized chunks of information about independant variables rather than having a bunch of variables changing accidentally and fighting against eachother.

[oblique hollow]

id argue learning that pipes have flow rate limits and that buildings list useful info in their descriptions should be learned right at the start

if that involves a 1:2 or a 3:8, idc

[crimson moat]

Sure, that's pretty obvious

[oblique hollow]

if they also wanna do a vertical design because of placement limitations, then so be it.

[crimson moat]

you can't put more than 300 through a pipe so dont do that

i never tried to do >300 because i read the tooltip as everyone should, but i still hit it by accident due to backflow that nobody was able to properly explain even on here.

[wind spade]

sure, but 3:8 doesn't have that

[oblique hollow]

3:8 circumvents it in the design is the point

1:2 doesnt encounter it at all by design

[crimson moat]

My second coal plant was 3:8 with connections that "shouldn't" hit 300/min, but did exceed 300/min on two pipes due to manifold backflow. On paper with the kind of math that you're talking about it worked fine.

[unique cypress]

And then you have people asking if they can connect more than 2 extracors to a pipe at all, even if they consume some of the water, because when you tell them this they assume you mean the entire pipe

[oblique hollow]

gravity probably messed with it

[edgy leaf]

another day where i pray for satisfactorytools 2.0 to have the ability to isolate recipe chains

[crimson moat]

Not gravity, but a different pipe layout going into the generators concentrated the backflow more than neccesary and more than happens on paper if you assume no backflow.

[unique cypress]

You're gonna pray for a while longer because the only date greeny gave us is 2025

and not promised, "likely"

[oblique hollow]

well that usually happens as a result of gravity from what i could tell.

[edgy leaf]

id be happy if it releases this decade. greeny is a saint

[wind spade]

had a lot of life issues recently

[oblique hollow]

Not just by building a flat manifold

[wind spade]

couldn't really spend time working on tools

[quick gorge]

I like keeping this one in my pocket for when I'm in VC with people having issues...
"Pipes are slutty bisexual belts. They flow both ways. If they are given a choice of left, down or right. They will always go down..."
Could continue but I think I'm already sitting on a line and any more will make it worse :]

[thorn bane]

well the 600/min issue happens on flat manifolds so why not with 300/min pipes?

[edgy leaf]

was lange währt wird endlich gut

[crimson moat]

I actually did make 100% sure to have it be flat. The issue was with the interconnection; it was basically a 3+3+2 layout that was all linked together instead of having one extractor at the left, one exactly in mid, and one right.

No pipe should have exceeded 300, but they DID, because of manifold backflow that nobody on here was able to explain properly. You both included.

[oblique hollow]

600/min issue happens due to asymmetric splits hitting the limit of pipe code stability

[crimson moat]

The very same thing happens with 300 pipes in the same way, just with half of the volume.

[edgy leaf]

please dont mention the number 600 in the same sentence as the word pipe, it triggers my ptsd 😭

[thorn bane]

well 270->225/45 is also uneven

[oblique hollow]

i keep hearing that from time to time, but i could never ever verify that mk 1 pipes suffer from the same issue with asymmetric splits

even with a vertical manifold

[wind spade]

which:

• doesn't hit pipe limit
• and hence doesn't hit code limit

[oblique hollow]

just had that not ever happen at all.

[crimson moat]

I have verified it. They're basically identical, other than the minimum pipe capacity being a different % of flow rate (which does affect things)

[edgy leaf]

has the pipe mystery been solved?

[oblique hollow]

well now we need to be able to verify it on others ends else we are kinda in limbo here

[wind spade]

no, just multiple people having multiple different conflicting sources of data. afaik even hardware may play a role in it

[unique cypress]

The valve mystery has probably been solved

[crimson moat]

Yeah, uneven pipe splits cause backflow from the lower consumption path to the other paths through a junction. Fluid manifolds always have it. Backflow eats flow capacity twice or more.

[edgy leaf]

why does headlift fix it?

[unique cypress]

Pipes? Probably not

[crimson moat]

It doesn't

[oblique hollow]

laura your pipe network hell had more stability with head lift, but it didnt fix it completely

[thorn bane]

which of the 10

[crimson moat]

My bad if you're talking about a specific build issue 😄

I was thinking generically what people talk about as "pipe issues"

[edgy leaf]

i mean the testing save where i just had refineries in a row

[oblique hollow]

laura had 600/min pipes in a vertical manifold (bottom feeding) into blenders

[oblique hollow]

i have a save with mk 1 pipes in a giant row with 300/min in a bottom feeding manifold.

the ONLY condition it had was that i had to add a pump at the beginning and halfway down to "refresh" head lift

because otherwise vertical manifolds are giant "AND" chains for headlift checks

and pumps allow you to break that check into seperate ones

"Is this segment before me full? then i have headlift"

[edgy leaf]

i mean this setup

[oblique hollow]

and from tests i also made, headlift from mk 2 pumps can help with this "AND" check for longer and taller manifolds

[oblique hollow]

yeah thats similar to what i had in a way.

It all comes down to junctions and how well they can deal with uneven splits.

Hoooowever. i see your junctions are sideways

[edgy leaf]

the funny thing is in that situation, even aq mk2 pump didnt add "enough" headlift.

[oblique hollow]

running it with junctions in vertical would be interesing

[edgy leaf]

adding 370 meters of headlift made it work !

[oblique hollow]

yeah cause manifold too long

20 and 50m head lift were only ever enough for like 10 or 20 splits

and also asymmetric split being at work here of course

asymmetric split is now the leading theory for mk 2s to make them work.
basically "make sure your junctions output the same amount on all exits"

[edgy leaf]

im confused about this, in my scenario i dont braek the check into seperate ones. i have multiple pumps infront of the manifold, but none inside

does this mean asymmetrical splits "consume" headlift?

[oblique hollow]

which does kinda favour balancers in a way.
at least to a certain extent

[oblique hollow]

no thats more to do with what junctions wanna do

Junctions have a desire to split incoming flow evenly

if they dont get to, they throw a fit

[crimson moat]

If you elevate the feed pipe above the refineries input hole, it will likely work with only one pump before that.

[oblique hollow]

especially at the mk 2 case of 600 in and like.... 5 out one way and 595 out the other way

[edgy leaf]

i still dont understand how more headlift influences this decision

[oblique hollow]

this is just on a flat manifold, without head lift.
thats the baseline here

now, we add headlift into the mix

head lift is supposed to be equally shared between all pipes. but thats only the case if they are all full.

i do not however have precise data on if headlift gets shared fractionally for pipes that are less than 140% full

or how much head lift is deducted from the calculations normally (there is some loss programmed in to prevent pipes not needing pumps by feeding themselves or something)

[edgy leaf]

so the funky stuff that happens when pipes have uneven split + the many instances of headlift after the split somehow substract headlift due to a mechanism added to prevent infinite headlift?

[oblique hollow]

i can only assume that having a lot of exces head lifts affects how full pipes are allowed to get

because they see "oh hey i get to fill up up to x% so i can reach y% height"

remember, its all a giant chain

[oblique hollow]

oh also important:
use mk 1 pipes where possible,
this makes it easier for the junction to do the right splits.
if you dont need more than 300/min into a machine, use mk 1 pipes

[thorn bane]

or, you know, dont feed from below xD

[edgy leaf]

it looks pretty tho

[thorn bane]

you know whats also pretty?
working setups 🙃

[edgy leaf]

why not both?

[oblique hollow]

if you want vertical manifold stability, really consider feeding it from as close to the middle as possible

end-fed manfolds for 600/min are a pipe dream
loops try to fix this but they are not the best case either

better than end-fed with no loop, yes, but if possible an even split is prefered

if you feed from the middle, you can convert the entire manifold to mk 1 anyway

so thats a bonus too

[thorn bane]

damn we are getting closer and closer to actual "dont do 600/min pipes"

[edgy leaf]

right now im doing 600 oil to 8 HOR refineries and it works perfectly fine

[oblique hollow]

its better to not do it when you dont need it

[oblique hollow]

probably due to each refinery sipping 75/min

[edgy leaf]

i have 2 400hor/min pipes, each one feeding 4 blenders

[quick gorge]

Pokemon when they say their own name

[oblique hollow]

if you sip 75/min from a pipe, you get a lot of spare capacity on the other pipe (600 - 75 = 525)
so that alleviates many issues because now the pipe can slosh more safely

if the pipes into the refineries are mk 1, even better

[edgy leaf]

my test where i needed more than a mk2 had 16 37.5 water refineries

id think each refinery taking more and thus having less refineries in a row would make it better

[oblique hollow]

yes cause it

1. is closer to an even split
2. it removes more fluid from the pipe

the best case is 1 or 2 refineries for obvious reasons

next best is an equal 3-way split
then an unequal 3 way
then 4 way and so on

[edgy leaf]

also, damn. i accidentally disconnected the batteries from my awesome sink power net, then disconnected the awesome sink power net from my main net. that clogged all my fuel producing refineries, now my entire power grid needs to slowly reboot 😭

[thorn bane]

i wonder if theres a poor souls that has 210% clock speed of machines so he clocked the first machine to 10% resulting in a really uneven split that fucks up the other 200%

[oblique hollow]

probably.
proof that "lowest clock rate goes last" is superior

[edgy leaf]

make them all the same clock rate 😈

[unique cypress]

All of my machines are at 100%

[oblique hollow]

mine are whatever the hell i want em to be

[edgy leaf]

terrifying

[thorn bane]

i clock all of mine to 69% /s

[edgy leaf]

i clock all of mine to 420% : )

[thorn bane]

actually now with synthetic power shards pretty much everything is 250%

[edgy leaf]

same here. i have some crazy plans (which will probably never happen) and im trying to prepare to reduce lag for it.

[thorn bane]

imagine if we lived in a world where you could only clock to 200% so oil would output 480m³/min instead
i guarantee you 90% of pipe issues would vanish

[plucky tusk]

I clock all mine to 87.53178%

[edgy leaf]

this is pure bottomfeeding. all lines are flat and equal

[oblique hollow]

SF speedrun with Pi% machines only when?

[edgy leaf]

(ignore the stuff before i switched off the PPS, thats from my quantum encoders n stuff)

[edgy leaf]

i have them on a seperate grid.

also add awesome sinks to homers back. those things can turn off too, and they dont show it!! made me search like crazy for hours once

[oblique hollow]

would have been fun if you ran them on exact capacity and then just let the power storages do their job and compensate

[thorn bane]

have you encountered trains regenerative braking generating power?
thats the true end boss

[edgy leaf]

thats on the same grid as quantum encoders etc

i learned about that fun fact relatively early on so i was spared from searching

just found this beauty again

[oblique hollow]

Nobody:
The random 8MW power production boost from train brakes every once in a blue moon:
⚡

[edgy leaf]

i made a special "water cycle" blueprint with packagers and unpackagers to test VIP junctions without mods

all the ones labeled in green/red seem to work

wanna know whats funny? if you save and load hte world again, some of them stop working and need to "recalibrate" for a minute or two

[thorn bane]

@crimson moat whats the reason to underclock the generator instead of the water extractor?
i remember doing 270/min water -> 6 generators to not have to do >300

[oblique hollow]

theres an issue right now where pipes dont save their flow rate correctly

[edgy leaf]

i hope it stays, it gives me an excuse not to worry about repeating decimals in my machine clocks

cause itll sputter once on reload anyway and reset any possibly accumulated drift

[waxen condor]

WTF is that ?

[edgy leaf]

each square is an instance of a blueprint i made to test pipe junctions. water moves from one side to the other in pipes and back in containers making a loop

i used mods that generate/destroy fluids for the testing but people said the mods might taint the results so i built this setup

[crimson moat]

It's the closest ratio, and uses the most water/area that you can get without power sharding your water

you can downclock the extractor to 2:1 and that's the same pipe complexity, of similar validity, but your powerplant will be like 50% wider because you need 50% more water extractors/modules.

[thorn trail]

greeny was right, maximize on SF Tools does some really weird things sometimes. https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=Jj4sRKC14abcanTUDxiu

it's somehow generating 0.001 rubber from nothing

[wind spade]

that's just rounded values

that's not relevant to maximise

it's either rounded in UI or rounding error in general

[thorn trail]

oh, i understand, it's still just weird looking

[sullen phoenix]

How deep of a water source do I need for the water extractor for the coal power plant?
Because the place where I found a pure coal node is on top of a lone cliff at the very south-southwest of the map.

[unique cypress]

Try placing an extractor. It'll tell you which water is deep enough and which isn't

In general, you do not need deep water at all, but some rivers and puddles are too shallow

[faint meadow]

In short, the pump under the water extractor accepts it as long as it does not touch the ground in the water.

[sullen phoenix]

Ok.

Bruh, I found another pure coal node at the top of a mountain.

Come on

[faint meadow]

The southeast part of the map is the first starting area and that mountain cliff there is the end of the map, right? I don't remember if there is a lake near there, the location of the big lake near there comes to mind but I don't know how to say it exactly

[unique cypress]

Do you like... not use the resource scanner when looking for stuff?

[sullen phoenix]

Yes, I do. That's how I found them?

[unique cypress]

Then why is this a bruh moment

[faint meadow]

If you have the material, start pulling a band for coal or take the water from the waterfall. You can use copper sheet but since it will be a place that goes up, the pump will require very little.

[sullen phoenix]

These 2 pure nodes were within 500m. The other nodes (mostly impure) are 1km away.

[unique cypress]

If you found it later with the scanner, then they're farther away

[sullen phoenix]

I will have to get the coal down from the mountain with a belt, no choice.

[opaque quartz]

There’s an ideal coal power spot north and west of you. Four normal nodes next to a lake

The nodes you’ve found are better saved for steel production as there’s no water nearby

[sullen phoenix]

Alright.

[sullen phoenix]

This one?

[opaque quartz]

One last tip, build the generators close to (or over) the water. It’s much easier to move solids (coal) than it is fluids

[sullen phoenix]

I took your advice.

[ruby shoal]

Question, since it seems like I really don't understand manifolds.

Is having a considerable amount of backup normal? My brain is screaming at me telling me backup means somethings wrong, even when I have the right amount of machines for how much input I'm using. But backups and having solids overflow onto other conveyors literally seems like the entire point of manifolds.

I think I'm oversimplifying a fair bit, but I can't help thinking, if I don't need to load balance anything and the only thing I need to ensure is I have enough input, what's the hard part?

[unique cypress]

There really isn't a "hard part" when it comes to item management inside a factory. Managing more than one full belt of one item is the only thing that requires some thinking.

Unless you're trying to make the belts look a specific way for aestetics or w/e but that is a self-imposed challenge

[versed violet]

As long as the main belt feeding the manifold is not backing up, everything is fine.

[ruby shoal]

Why is that one the issue? Let's say I have some amount of iron coming from miners into the first manifold feeding into smelters. Are you saying it's an issue if that one backs up? Why?

[unique cypress]

It's an issue if it backs up if it's not supposed to

[ruby shoal]

Well, none of them are supposed to, right? I guess I kinda need a contextual example to get it

[unique cypress]

If you're producing more than you're consuming, then the main belt will fill up

[ruby shoal]

Yeah, but is that really even an issue?

[unique cypress]

no

[ruby shoal]

Then what was meant by this?

[unique cypress]

idk tbh

[ruby shoal]

Oh lmao

[unique cypress]

if you match production and consumption, it shouldn't be backing up, but you don't need to match them

[ruby shoal]

I think I need to do some messing around in 'creative' to make sure I understand this. I feel like I've had it happen several times where I've matched them and it keeps backing up

[unique cypress]

it can happen if production is temporarily higher than consumption. If they become matched afterwards, the backup won't clear by itself (not that it needs to)

[ruby shoal]

I've been playing with a friend recently, and I've always been on it about using the closest conveyors for the amount of throughput. Like if I have 100 of X that splits two ways, I'd carry X to the next machine with mk1, because 60 is the closest to 50.

But my friend has the mentality of just using the highest capacity conveyor for literally everything. So maybe that's the reason I'm noticing so much backup?

[unique cypress]

The belt tier, as long as it's fast enough, doesn't really matter

[ruby shoal]

So once you unlock the higher tiers, there really isn't ever a reason to use lower?

[unique cypress]

matching tier will give you some output faster, but will make it take longer to reach full output

[unique cypress]

Unless you're building a rate limiter for some reason, not really

[ruby shoal]

No clue what that is lol, so I'm guessing I'm in the clear then

[unique cypress]

Except mk2 (which is expensive at the beginning), I always use the highest belt tier available

[ruby shoal]

Gotcha, I suppose it makes sense to do that

[unique cypress]

It's a setup that only outputs up to a specific amount of items and no more. Rarely useful

[ruby shoal]

Ah, doesn't seem like it really would be. Thanks though

[ruby shoal]

I still feel like I don't really understand what you said here, about 'Managing more than one full belt of one item is the only thing that requires some thinking'.

I hate to be a bother, but could you give an example?

[brisk epoch]

basically if your input rate of an item required is higher than the highest belt you can have

you kinda have to think about it

[unique cypress]

When you need so much of one item that it can't all fit on one belt, you need to manage the items somehow. You can't just do one manifold, because the singular input belt can't handle more than 1 belt's worth of items

There are multiple solutions but they're all at least slightly more complicated than a single, simple manifold

[ruby shoal]

Ah, I get that. But that only seems like an issue with a production chain right? Not really with just one machine in particular?

[brisk epoch]

yeah an entire chain

[ruby shoal]

Ah, gotcha. I'd probably just see if I can split the chain into a more managable number, but yeah that makes sense

[unique cypress]

Yeah, entire production chain. Or at least one entire step of it.

One machine rarely even can take more than 1 belt of 1 item of input. I mean if it has more than 1 input port, you technically can put in more than one belt of one item into it, but unless it has more input ports than ingredients, you're gonna need sushi, and it's a complicated mess that's basically never worth it. Don't worry about it lol

Basically, if a recipe asks for 3 different items, you connect 3 belts to the machine, one for each item

[ruby shoal]

I get what you're saying now. It's harder to think abstractly about the game without looking at it lmao.

And I understand your point about different belts, for stuff like truck stations, assemblers, manufacturers, etc

And just to clarify a point I think I was missing/still confused on. It's perfectly okay to have the input to a machine backup, like ore - smelter - ingot, but it's bad to have the output backup, like ingot - constructor - plates.

Everything past the very first step should not have a backup, right? Since the constructor's input and the smelter's output are the same line. And when the smelter's output backs up, it idles and stops producing.

Do I have that right?

Or does it still not really matter?

[unique cypress]

If we're talking about it in general, no the output backing up doesn't matter

Yes, the machine will stop producing items

But there are items available

[edgy leaf]

does anyone know what the approximate awesome sink value of a power shard is?

[unique cypress]

All of my factories have some outputs backed up

And probably some inputs empty

As long as you're getting the output you planned for, everything is fine

Having the machines pause costs you some power (because you could underclock them and save some power), but it's insignificant. A few %

[unique cypress]

They can't be sunk so 0

[edgy leaf]

things made out of them can be sunk

[unique cypress]

Then add their values and multiply the total by 2. That's how much it'd be worth if it was sinkable

[ruby shoal]

Gotcha gotcha. I always thought that letting machines idle was bad practice mainly because it does what you said and fluctuates the power. Seems like with manifolds, having some machine idle is inevitable.

I don't usually plan for output, since I never know how much I actually need or how much is an acceptable amount, I usually just go off of whatever's available lol. Maybe I need to change how I do things.

[unique cypress]

If the machines' actual item production/consumption are the same as their "rated" numbers (the ones they display) then nothing will idle. If the ratios do not work out, you can always make them work out by changing clock speeds. I never bother, though

[edgy leaf]

soo hte answer is no. sad

[unique cypress]

The same applies to input. If you planned to consume x, and you're consuming x and turning it into an output, it's also fine

But I'd generally advise aiming for some output. If you start from input without considering output, you'll often end up with way too much or way too little

[vapid gorge]

The only reason the main branch of a manifold should back up at consumption point is if you’re not concerned simping it all ( or have a hidden low mk belt piece somewhere)

[ruby shoal]

But if I'm using a manifold, the whole point is to have them backup, yeah? So they'll still accept and output the amount that's rated, so long as the output is carried away faster than they can produce it. That still feels like it brings me back to the problem of only the main line can be backed up, since the first line's output and the second lines input are the same line.

I think you're right in the sense I should stop caring about stuff like this. Like you said, idling only changes power by a little bit, and as long as machines are constantly being fed, it'll produce at whatever it can.

[unique cypress]

The whole point of a manifold is item distribution. If you input into the main line some amount of items, but the machines connected to it can in total consume more, then some of the machines at the end will idle, the main belt won't back up, and neither will the belts connected to the last machines. But the belts connected to the first ones will

[ruby shoal]

Alright, got it. It still just feels weird having these 'issues', but maybe I need to spend some time seeing it actually work. Thanks for taking the time to explain stuff to me!

[fallow siren]

how manifold work is they will overflow first row of machines until the last 2 machines or so

they self balance overtime

[opaque quartz]

Once a manifold is fully spun up, you will have full (“backed up”) feed belts onto all of the machines except the last two, which will each be getting exactly enough items to keep them running 100%

The buffer in each machine (one stack) has to fill up to force the overflow into later machines in the manifold

Your feed belt should be full but running continuously

The thing to look for is yellow status lights on the machines, that will tell you if you have a supply issue somewhere lower tier belts hiding in the middle somewhere being a somewhat common issue

[unique cypress]

This is fine and all, but only if you're feeding the main belt exactly as many items as the machines consume

Which not only isn't necessary, it's not even all that useful to ensure that happens

[thorn bane]

pretty cheap honestly
time crystals and dark matter crystals are kinda undervalued though since they require few steps but are still complex
for reference thats roughly 1 HMF or 1 cooling system

[nocturne seal]

@thorn bane why can't I do 600/min pipes

[prisma kraken]

if you push mk2 pipes to 600/min, the bi-directional nature of the pipes often causes backflow that complicates machines getting enough supply, enough so that some say they are broken as the game currently functions

[nocturne seal]

what if I use a pump

or a valve

[prisma kraken]

in theory it could help, in practice it often just complicates debugging the mess

[nocturne seal]

I have traumas with pipes. I can still remember the hours trying too get those last 4 fuel generators on 😭

[thorn bane]

mk2 pipes in long manifolds dont do 600/min, more like ~550
thats cause junctions splitting unevenly like 600->570/30 creates backflow that reduces the overall throughput (#math-and-meta message)
splitting evenly like 300/300 is fine
you can fix this by splitting your pipe into 2x 300/min pipes at the manifold, for example by building a loop that feeds 300/min from the start and 300/min from the end or by connecting it in the middle so it splits 2 ways

[prisma kraken]

in general, my approach with pipes is to use the mk2 pipes as little as possible. Usually for supplying water or oil from an extractor and then forking it into 2 mk1 pipes. the mk2's also work fine if you're pushing fluids in the range of 400-500/min in manifolds with a small number of consumers

[nocturne seal]

so mk1 pipes are fine working at 100% ?

[prisma kraken]

no, they can still pathologically do funny things, but it is much less common because your manifolds won't grow as large and the amount consumed per machine is a greater fraction of the entire pipe's capacity

[nocturne seal]

Alright, it's good to know that

[prisma kraken]

i'm sure you could noodle out some math to describe when and how they fail if you had enough time and motivation

[nocturne seal]

I was about to make a turbo fuel plant so I'll use that info

[thorn bane]

easiest solution is to just plan for other numbers
like i did 500/min pipes for my rocket fuel gens to just not have this issue

[prisma kraken]

usually a good approach to pipe design is to as you design stuff, break your factory into modules that do a fraction of the entire factory's function and keep them separate pipe networks

as a trivial example, 300 oil into 400 hor that then turns into 800 fuel can be broken into 150->200->400, but the 400 coming from the 4 blenders can then each feed a different set of generators directly instead of being merged into 2 400 pipes

i hope that makes sense, its getting kinda late for me 😛

[thorn bane]

eh that would need multiple pipes though
400/min pipes are fine

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but it helps to have output from one machine feed as few consumers as possible

[frosty owl]

Ngl, it's been a long time since I last concernedly simped for a manifold

[prisma kraken]

compacted steel isn't too unwieldy if you bp & build it as a fractal split

[viral sparrow]

this tickles my brain

[prisma kraken]

o.O

[opaque root]

Does this still work in 1.0 and/or 1.1? Why does it work? Which pieces are critical to making it work? Do the pumps need to be at the same elevation? Coming from sources at the same elevation/pressure? Does the top pipe have to be parallel to the bottom pipe? Does the vertical part need to be exactly vertical and/or short?
I may experiment to figure all this out, but that will take hours and I am hoping this game mechanic knowledge is available somewhere already.

[wind spade]

it kinda works, but why does it work is black magic

[opaque root]

Is there an alternative way to do things like aluminum where you need to use up all the byproduct water?

[wind spade]

ideally if you want to build it, you build it as similar to this as possible

but practically you should avoid situations where you need this

for aluminum, just have separate set of refineries that run on fresh water and separate set that runs on byproduct water

[opaque root]

for that to work you'd need to load balance or prioritize aluminum output from one of the two sets?

[wind spade]

don't think aluminum has any problems with it

[opaque root]

ok, I will try that when I scale up my aluminum production x3 (which I'm probably going to do after I can get mods for 1.1 because I'm out of patience for manually duplicating things)

[frosty owl]

Alternative to using a VIP?
One can keep the fresh and byproduct water separate and feed them to different things (or different parts of the same setup)

Alt recipes and Sloops even allow for aluminum setups without fresh water too..

[opaque root]

yeah, I'll get to those eventually 🙂

currently working through my first attempt to "beat" the game. I played up to tier 4ish in 0.3, but everything after that is new for me

[opaque quartz]

Doing the fresh/waste water split in aluminum is pretty easy, but you do need over/underclocking unlocked to make it work

[prisma kraken]

gotta be very careful when mathing that out that you stay under belt speeds

[opaque quartz]

and also remember that slooping increases your byproduct output too - so you have to account for that in your math

[opaque root]

How does https://satisfactory-calculator.com decide how much water is available on the map? Surely if you carpet the ocean with water extractors it would be millions per minute

[thorn trail]

it most likely uses the maximum value allowed for the numeric data type used in the game

or the max value allowed by the data type of the coding language used for the tool itself, since both would be ridiculously large

[wind spade]

that's just water from fracking nodes

[edgy leaf]

do any of yall know a way to stop the game from reordering my blueprints? or perhaps know how the game decides to order them so i can trick the game to put them in the right order?

[unique cypress]

Last time I checked, they were in reverse alphabetical order. Idk if it's still the case

and no, I do not know of a way to make the order anything else

a mod might exist

[edgy leaf]

whY would they do that 😭

thats the worst order

thanks though, guess ill rename my BPs to make them be ordered..

can you put blueprints into folders in your file system? or does it only parse the folder and not any subfoulders?

[quick gorge]

The worst order is alternating alphabetical order.
AZBYCX...

[edgy leaf]

its the worst order that isnt designed to be bad

[wind spade]

where do you put special letters in that?

[quick gorge]

Where is my ¤☆♤♡|€•¥ blueprint at?

Most likely put their unicodes into account

[edgy leaf]

honestly the blueprint UI in general is.. questionable. both builder and selection menu.

if they added a 20 euro dlc to make the ui better id buy that

[quick gorge]

Sounds like a mod to me..

[edgy leaf]

but using mods is modded..

[quick gorge]

If you're not in exp it isn't a sin

[edgy leaf]

not to you maybe

[wind spade]

||ah yes, the floor here is made out of floor||

[quick gorge]

If you are in exp you will goto the 9th circle of hell :)

[quick gorge]

Thank you buzz

[edgy leaf]

blueprint autoconnect is the reason im making so many blueprints right now...

[quick gorge]

You are not going to the 9th circle of hell then.

[quick gorge]

Wow.
Why the fuck

[edgy leaf]

wdym?

why what

[amber umbra]

The blueprint ordering getting messed up bothered me also. Seems like UI, file stuff isn’t trivial based on similar issues in similar games.

[edgy leaf]

i dont think its file stuff. they just sort it in reverse alphabetical order. should just be changing one line in the code to change it

[amber umbra]

Ah, it is robustly that? Was always thrown off by it apparently not sorting initially then upon reloading a save it applies the sort.

[edgy leaf]

upon reloading the save it sorts reverse alphabetically

[amber umbra]

Regardless, it has non-zero additional polish that could be applied.

[quick gorge]

Why the fuck does it have to be like that

[edgy leaf]

with the letters on the front? because i want them to be sorted

[quick gorge]

Yeah but why the fuck is is reverse alphabetical in tbr first place? Who came up with this?

[edgy leaf]

oooh i thought ur confused why im doing this. yea no clue why the devs did that

[amber umbra]

I used to do the same type of random leading letter on Factorio save files to sort them. Makes sense. Although janky

[wind spade]

is probably some bug or unintended feature of their sorting system thing, given that craft bench also does that

[quick gorge]

Someone just put the code in backwards.
Sillllyyy devs

[edgy leaf]

now its all sorted yay

[wind spade]

though for craft bench I call that a feature, namely "stop handcrafting" feature

[quick gorge]

("spoO")tnirp

[wind spade]

1 enil no nolocimes gnissim :rorre xatnyS

[quick gorge]

My phone didn't like typing that btw so actively fighting it was fun :]

[edgy leaf]

fun fact, there has not been a single post on the qa site mentioning alphabetical

so i made one: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/682a15fb6b7c57319637b611

OOOH. wait. are PPSs also resorted in reverse alphabetical order on reload??

[quick gorge]

Thank you for your service Pioneer...

Something strange is afoot

[edgy leaf]

ah no, they're just random it seems

but they dont always keep their order, maybe it gets messed up when new ones are made. i wanted to add seperators to the individual categories to make it prettier/more convenient but they moved

oh yea and you can only move them down

[quick gorge]

Spooky blueprint ghosts...

[harsh mason]

I'm in the process of building a very large quartz processing facility and the thing that keeps getting me in trouble is my apparent inability to count

[plucky tusk]

Real

You doin pure quartz or just basic recipes

[harsh mason]

yeah, quartz purifcation

doing as much as 3000 nitrogen/min can handle, which is around 9000 raw quartz per minute, in 12 production lines

[plucky tusk]

Yeah id have trouble counting that too. Signs would help

[harsh mason]

I have several. Lots of times it was things like "ok, I have 10 pipes of nitrogen and 2 pipes of water, that's 16..."