math-and-meta

[thorny root]

I'm almost done but fuaaark. There's some parts I can't plan yet. And it's killing me.

I could leave it modular and have it auto adjust on demand later but that's even more refinery to build and I'm kinda working against a certain radius here. if I hit that one particular radius in size I have to move the whole refinery up like 24 meters and that messes with my intentions.

There's a rock in the way. I want to have the refinery not hit that rock. It's either don't get to the rock or go over it.

As it goes I have like... 2 rings of plastic, 1 partial ring of petroleum coke, and an unknown remainder of fuel and an unknown quantity of petrolum coke.

[bleak wagon]

im ngl the fact that I have enough silica for my needs with just the by product of quartz purification is amazing

[thorny root]

Yeah it's a nifty relationship.

[bleak wagon]

only need 3k quartz this time around

[thorny root]

What I also need to nail down later is my final silica consumption... which is mostly going to be governed by how much quartz I actually need. As it turns out, I'm waaaay overkill on quartz production.

At least in plans.

I was making too much quartz in the plans and not leaving silica for what would actually be better recipe choices.

[bleak wagon]

At some point I want to sit down and plan out a save start to finish and just build it in creative and flip it to life

[thorny root]

You can't get much cheaper than dirt on resources. Dirt being... sand... in this case... which is okay nevermind.

[bleak wagon]

lol

[thorny root]

I think it was silicon high speed connector that I should be doing.

[bleak wagon]

Im just using AI limiters, they feel like the better option for me

[thorny root]

But NOT silicon circuit board... because... wait what are even my options then.

hang on =/

Ahhh. Yes. Silicon high speed connector, caterium circuit board. this is what I want.

[bleak wagon]

im ngl if i had more interest in playing with other people on this game you might be the most enjoyable co-op I could end up with based off what both of us are doing rn

[thorny root]

Potentially. Except one of us would have to submit to the other's master plan and it wouldn't be me.

[bleak wagon]

give me a blueprint and Im a builder slave tbh

the numbers are fun but also painful

[thorny root]

Although some collaboration on the plan is definitely warranted.

This is too big brain for me sometimes.

[bleak wagon]

yeah

im definitely having an interesting time rn

I still need to decide what im doing to all the water byproducts

theyre likely getting consolidated into a packager and sunk

ik ficsit doesnt waste but theres a whole ass ocean below my nuclear power plant, I dont need more water

[thorny root]

I'm recycling my water byproducts by packaging it and sending it back through the line that feeds the stuff that uses it.

It is an overengineered lazy solution to a complicated problem.... made more complicated by the engineer responsible.

Typical engineers.

[bleak wagon]

I would do that, but my main concern is the possibility for something to fail and nuclear meltdown

[thorny root]

Oh um. Yeah. Nuclear is isolated. 1:1:2 ratio no sharing no holding hands.

1 nuclear 1 pipe 2 extractor that is

[bleak wagon]

yeah all my npp are setup like that

[thorny root]

no packaging, unpackaging, training in the water, or anything ridiculous.

[bleak wagon]

had a fun time on SCIM for a little bit of the extractors because i messed up miserably

[thorny root]

if you really want to failsafe your nuclear against 'meltdowns' (cessation of functionality due to lack of ???) give your water extractors ONLY a huge battery backup bank and a priority power connector switch handling the backup switching. And pre-buffer your fuel rods. A lot of them.

This should ensure that no matter what screws up you're golden for several minutes.

Possibly hours. Possibly unbreakble.

Depends on how self contained it is.

[bleak wagon]

the concern i have is recycling water could possibly cause something to get soft locked, i watched it happen in my aluminum production which is why im staying away from recycling anything in my nuclear plant

[thorny root]

It sounds to me like a train derailing or getting stuck waiting on traffic or ending up in a gridlock with other trains and then losing supply lines due to that... That seems like your most vulnerable point.

[bleak wagon]

that likely will be

[violet turtle]

all this for 4 hmfs / min

[thorny root]

Not necessarily the most likely point of failure though... But it would be the most likely to cause severe problems quickly.

If it came up.

[bleak wagon]

which is why I have an absolutely overkill backup battery

[thorny root]

For the water extractors and pumps right?

[bleak wagon]

for everything

connected to my power grid

[wind spade]

*power storage 😛

[bleak wagon]

80gw, i can isolate the power storage to my nuclear plant if i have to though

[thorny root]

cough find another hobby cough

[bleak wagon]

i use them interchangeably, but i think i end up using power storage more often than not

[wind spade]

cough use proper words cough

[thorny root]

If I misuse the word around you, is it assault of batteries?

Or just your senses?

[bleak wagon]

istg whenever you misuse the word greeny is summoned

[thorny root]

I know. It's like... that's all he's waiting for.

Reading everything else. No comment. Everything is fine.

BATTERIES

[bleak wagon]

i find it funny though tbh

[thorny root]

It's about as amusing as a cat chasing a laser beam I guess.

[bleak wagon]

damn im using 6k nitrogen on this so far

[thorny root]

Anyway... backup power is cool... I think it's unrealistic to try to have that cover your entire map.

You can cover any outage, sure... but for far less time. And it makes finding the problem harder.

Let's say some multiplayer maniac decides to go delete some random power cable. Perhaps on accident.

All you know is you didn't do it.

It also at some point kinda reduces the purpose of having backup power... If you have it all in one location especially.

[bleak wagon]

the ba- power storage is more for covering the drops/spikes in power usage or production i have rn (geysers and particle accelerators) and because i dont have enough power to even run my save properly rn

its more of if i need a significant amount i can route it to where it needs to be

[thorny root]

If you never run out of power, you can still have power outages by accidentally deleting critical connections.

[bleak wagon]

yeah

[thorny root]

Your ideal redundancy would be: Power Storage @ every location where power is generated, hooked to the systems generating the power. Particularly water. Fuel mostly takes care of itself if everything's chugging along. But in the case of fuel, a storage tower is not a bad idea. You get a backup of fuel, you get a backup of water (via power storage) and you're basically impervious to major failures at those points. That makes each unit self contained as much is it can be. Then you have multiple redundant pathways, Trains connected to the grid share the load, sure, but if a single track is all that was bringing power to your XYZ location then that's a big oof.

Then of course you also make sure that you're always producing more than your'e consuming.

[violet turtle]

its aluminum time

[bleak wagon]

yeah, atm my ridiculous power storage is whats protecting against that, but once I get my entire nuclear plant finished Im going to setup a power storage area at it

[thorny root]

So hard to decide some things atm. Perhaps I need to take a break. Work on a different problem.

[bleak wagon]

I think v2 of my nuclear plan is officially done

[thorny root]

Okay but what about the rest of the owl.

[bleak wagon]

theres currently nothing else Ive been planning

[thorny root]

You've got the entire chain built that feeds the beast at the end?

[bleak wagon]

goes all the way from uranium to ficsonium

[thorny root]

Niiiiice. You're moving quick!

Not meeeee XD

[bleak wagon]

this plan is also readable

more so than the last one

the last one was a nightmare

[thorny root]

I just make small factories in the planner. Small ones that have the inputs of another factory fed into it, and most of the raws turned off for easy number crunching.

For actually designing the physical build I mean.

For the overall process and gauaging resources, it's better in this view.

[thorny root]

But that's a whale to think about eating. I like turning it into smaller steps.

300 DMR, you slooping something?

[bleak wagon]

its part of this

which is drone fuel

[thorny root]

It's interesting what we all choose to sloop...

So in this case it's the dark matter crystals you're slooping?

[bleak wagon]

I have 80 sloops being used in my plan, 15 on copper powder, 16 on aluminum scrap, reanimated sam production(15) and the things that use it (34)

I dont have sloops on dark matter crystals

[hazy hill]

is it normal that Modeler cant count this? It can count ofc but it is very slow (i put part limit on every node)

little chaotic yes

[thorny root]

I'm sure you're aware those are... unique choices for sloops. Unsure what you're optimizing for here.

[bleak wagon]

yeah ik theyre weird choices

[thorny root]

It kinda looks like you're optimizing for "less factory to build"

[bleak wagon]

the aluminum scrap sloops are because im using 10k bauxite if i dont and uh

i cant use all the bauxite on this

the copper powder is just because I dont want to take in as much copper ore (im lazy) and its only 15 sloops, I dont really plan to use sloops anywhere else in my save

[thorny root]

how much aluminum ingots are you producing, and what are they being used in

[bleak wagon]

8129.26
5509.26 goes to aluminum casing, 2500 goes to ficsite ingots, and 120 goes to fluid tanks for packaging ionized rocket fuel

[thorny root]

What's using aluminum casing

radio control units and fused modular frames?

[thorny root]

no comments

[bleak wagon]

good choices?

[crimson moat]

i am making 50 rcu and it cost 800

[thorny root]

can double check hango n

[bleak wagon]

no comment had me worried it was the worst possible decision i couldve made lol

[thorny root]

yes actually comments.

your plutonium conversion choice... are you going ficsonium?

[bleak wagon]

yes

[thorny root]

hold on

Do non fissile uranium > Plutonium Pellets > cells route.

miiiiinor modification.

😉

[bleak wagon]

alright I can take a look at that

ooo does this save me from having extra PFR

yes it does

ty, i was like wtf do i do with these and just sunk them

[thorny root]

fuel for the factory of course

FICIST DOES NOT... have anything to do with this godforsaken place, who am I kidding.

[bleak wagon]

FICSIT if you insist on not wasting im going to shove the left over material up the space elevator

find somethign to do with it yourself

[thorny root]

So anyway I think this route is cleaner. Gives you more fuel. Uses less aluminum.

[bleak wagon]

yeah ty for that

[thorny root]

no problem. of course this is going to make you refactor your plans but its worth it to have... the right plan.

[bleak wagon]

much nicer numbers as well

it actually hasnt messed with anything too much

the numbers look a fuck ton nicer to work with

Im still halfslooping aluminum because I dont want to use more than 6k bauxite

[thorny root]

Bauxite is for aluminum. Copper is for powder. Pretty much it. the less you have to deviate from that, the better.

There are some required deviations obviously but... this makes for much nicer resource distribution and usage.

[bleak wagon]

yeah bauxite is just going to aluminum, copper is going everywhere though, but thats still under 10k so im alright with it

any advice on using less limestone?

[thorny root]

Molded steel pipe. Disable. Use Iron pipe. For steel, solid steel ingot, disable other creation methods including coke steel, basic steel.

You're using jack shit for iron atm. That's disproportionate.

[bleak wagon]

I only use solid steel

so I wont actually need steel if I dont use it on steel pipes

saves a whole production line ig

[thorny root]

Your steel users should basically be anything that directly uses steel beams.

You make 'steel pipe' with iron. You encase the pipe to make industrial beams.

The only thing up for debate in that arena really is steel screws, steel rods, and what frame method you use.

But most people just do encased heavy frame like you're doing

[bleak wagon]

I hate screws

[thorny root]

Yeah screws and rods suck to deal with.

I avoid both mostly.

[bleak wagon]

I only have 250 screws circulating my save and its because of the awesome shop

[thorny root]

The stack size for screws could be 2.5k and they'd still suck.

its just too much volume down a belt.

[bleak wagon]

screws could teleport into the machine they need to go to and id still avoid them like the plague

[thorny root]

too many machines to fill the needs.

[bleak wagon]

Im looking at my numbers now and its actually wild how much changing to plutonium pellets evened out my numbers

[thorny root]

The only time i use screws are when it makes sense to make them from steel beams, because the material ratio makes it so I can run that one belt down the entire line and feed basically all of it.

whatcha using all the singularity cells for?

[bleak wagon]

I think i need to work on my mess of copper and caterium at the start

12.5k quickwire might be less than ideal

oh my bad

its actually 19.8k

[thorny root]

that's not that much.

[bleak wagon]

well im definitely changing recipes around for ai limiters because thats where a lot of copper is going to

[thorny root]

plastic ai limiter, caterium circuit board, silicon high speed connector, insulated crystal oscillator, and when you get to computers (not part of this factory) Crystal computers. And finally Super State Computer.

This is your... most balanced 'tech' resource usage.

[bleak wagon]

yeah thats actually really good to know I was thinking of the right alts to use

[thorny root]

if you decide you need an abhorent number of computers, you add caterium computer.

If you decide after that you need an absurd number of super computers, you mix in the base super computer recipe.

oc super computer kills your aluminum too quick and any other chain south of the computer section will lead to an imbalance later if you expand.

copper priority is like... copper powder and don't use it on anything else at all if you can avoid it. Somethings you just can't avoid.

[bleak wagon]

yeah Im currently using OC super computers, but I dont plan to use them once I get actual production of them going, atm i just have a small setup for a lot of the t7 and 8 stuff because i needed it for building

those are the new resource numbers

3k quartz on the dot makes me happy

[thorny root]

That's looking a lot more balanced.

[bleak wagon]

for the dissolved silica Im making 1500 byproduct of quartz purification so i have 388.89 idk what to do with

probably just turn it into silica and sink it?

[thorny root]

How much cheap silica are you making

[bleak wagon]

none

[thorny root]

how are you supplying your aluminum with enough silica

[bleak wagon]

im using pure aluminum because I wanted to avoid making a ton of cheap silica

[thorny root]

Show me your aluminum chain please

[thorny root]

... oh I hate this calculator. Okay. What processes and in what volumes.

Alumina solution > Electrode > Pure?

[bleak wagon]

sloppy alumina > aluminum scrap > pure

[thorny root]

Well... I highly recommend electrode aluminum scrap. But I'm guessing the refinery is already built and there's no going back.

[bleak wagon]

none of what Im showing you is built yet

[thorny root]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=ua7SwYp74bBdmNFE0cHy Consider a variation of this chain then... And adjust only the desired silica.

Tell it how much silica you want, it figures out the rest.

The quartz output is overkill by about 2x.

There is much more silica available than I'm asking for. I will refactor these numbers later when I figure out what they need to be.

But the process is solid. Just the balancing of it. How much quartz into purification, how much into cheap silica.

If you ask for more cheap silica, it uses less nitrogen, but it uses more limestone, but of course, produces less quartz.

Either way you get maximum aluminum.

[bleak wagon]

good to know, Im probably going to continue to keep my quartz cost as low as i can by neglecting silica here though

[thorny root]

This limits your expansion options later but will work just fine for this plan.

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I should likely be able to work around that though

[thorny root]

If you run the full chain of nuclear... with the most optimal possible aluminum yield + the maximum nuclear fuel yield, you use 76% of the bauxite on the map. Literally just for the power.

[bleak wagon]

Im only using 4746.67 bauxite rn with 13 sloops on aluminum which im alright with

[thorny root]

Alrighty.

[bleak wagon]

Im at less sloops than I was before changing aluminum production so

78 total now instead of 80 total

looking at some very nice numbers for the most part

[thorny root]

If you do decide to expand, you'll run out of aluminum before you run out of anything else.

So... just wanna forecast that. For your awareness.

[bleak wagon]

alchemy exists if I need it

[thorny root]

And you'll still run out of aluminum before anything else.

Actually you might just eat up all your sam trying.

Not an issue if you don't do much expansion.

There's still considerable wiggle room of course too... it depends on how addicted you get to portals.

Fueling a single portal is 2 Singularity Cell per minute... which uses nuclear pasta to make.

[bleak wagon]

in the end I plan to be making use of everything on the map, but Im doing a lot of planning as I go so Im gonna get to work with whatever past me leaves to use

[thorny root]

Which uses aluminum... etc.

[bleak wagon]

Also Im mildly concerned that I could use only use waste water from my aluminum scrap production and my aluminum production still has more water than it needs

[thorny root]

Yeaaah I'm turning my brain off for that and letting the packager handle it.

You want actual advice I think there's a couple of pipe guys floating around XD

[bleak wagon]

how badly would looping this end

[thorny root]

Not the one to ask.

[bleak wagon]

@someonewhoknowsifitendswell

[thorny root]

I do know that you can make a closed loop aluminum that uses no water by underslooping some parts of it.

It's literally just 2 machines that throw up back and forth at each other.

[bleak wagon]

yeah I think Im going to be attempting that ig

less water to deal with if i do

[thorny root]

So... there exists a slooping ratio that uses no water. At all. Just perpetual feedback.

The scale of it is the issue. But since you're already slooping your aluminum...

Yeah I think it was... 1 slooped running at half speed and... one and a half or something

... you figure it out XD

[bleak wagon]

I could always just throw in a packager and make it work

[thorny root]

but you don't need to undersloop if you just add more machines that use the right amount of water.

[bleak wagon]

its only 200 water that needs to go

[thorny root]

... or do you...

[bleak wagon]

this machine list looks fun

I think this aluminum loop is great

well, I can definitely say Im much more confident in this plan

ooo, I can easily deal with waste water by sinking it since I have the aluminum water looped

@thorny root mb for the ping, but I finally found something to do with my extra dissolved silica, I can turn it into concrete and put it into fine concrete to save on some limestone. FICSIT does not waste

[thorny root]

Closed loop aluminum. Took me a minute to remember how to do it.

[bleak wagon]

interesting

[thorny root]

imo its great for a quick and dirty initial aluminum setup...

But as you go on it just becomes an waste of sloops

[bleak wagon]

yeah, I havent moved past my original aluminum setup yet

ik theres a ton of sloops in it though

im actually gonna load my save and check rq because i think its like 20

oh its only 6, i couldve sworn it was more

this is my horrible aluminum setup

[thorny root]

I actually have no aluminum production atm.

switched trigons over to iron temporarily, and I haven't started back needing to build blenders and stuff

Will very likely make noather temporary aluminum just like the one pictured above...

[bleak wagon]

this temporary aluminum setup isnt so temporary atm because its whats causing my t7 and 8 factory to function

whats kinda funny about it though is its only using 300 bauxite/min

ig i get to start remaking my train stations

actually i should hunt for somersloops rn

[knotty siren]

Heh, if it works, it works

[oblique hollow]

no real reason to ever try to "load balance" pipes> Liquids are gonna do what they are gonna do, regardless. Consumers will direct flow. Just keep it below the max
@stark spire
New data and tests suggest that it does matter, at least at the flow limit of mk 2, and also that it can be done

Junctions naturally try to go for an even amount split between all connected output pipes

[thick plank]

The part about the junctions should only apply to level junctions? Dont height differences actually influence where the liquid will go first?

[river night]

that is correct

[oblique hollow]

It does. But the junction tries it anyway

A split where one goes down and the other goes on horizontal will actually have an equal amount of flow sent to both

For upwards its a bit more complicated

[thorn bane]

nice priority splitter actually works as intended
left is recycled fluid tank with prio (+ a bufffer)
bottom is fresh canisters made from alu with low prio
top is the lift going to the nitrogen node
not a single fluid tank has been used from the bottom since its been full 👍

[oblique hollow]

To be specific: Junctions try to have equal pressure on the connected outputs.

Pressure is the percentage that a pipe is filled, from 0 to 1.
(This is taken more or less directly from the header files of the game. I might be mistaken though, feel free to verify)
This fill percentage also dictates flow rate though the pipe.

This is the reason why a mk 1 pipe and a mk 2 pipe on a junction will have different flow speeds: because they both are at the same fill percentage

300 into a junction split into a mk 1 and mk 2 will result in both being filled 33.333%, which makes the mk 2 flow at 200/min and the mk 1 at 100/min

[knotty siren]

Heh I jumped in at the right time. I was actually wondering about this and in the case of Alumina solution where I need a certain amount for both Aluminum Casings and Alclad Aluminum Sheet while at the same time, I need a bit of Alumina Solution for Batteries. Should I use a valve in this case for the Alumina going to Batteries?

[oblique hollow]

Shouldnt be needed

[knotty siren]

Hmm

[oblique hollow]

If you arent exceeding or approaching the pipe flow rate limit, you can somewhat just rely on it doing an uneven split

[knotty siren]

I suppose not since the Alumina Solution going to the Battery production would in itself be limited by the Blender

[oblique hollow]

Yes, thats the point

And also, its only a big issue when you have a bunch if junctions near the flow rate limit

Below that, junctions can handle it if one side consumes more fluid than the other side

And if its a mk 1 pipe its also much safer

[thorn bane]

why are mk 1 pipes safer?

[blazing wraith]

Back from Easter, forwarded, couple Programmers are having a look and getting back to me!

[thorn bane]

they better not brake it ❤️

[blazing wraith]

They're working under explicit order to make it worse, any way they can

[thorn bane]

understood
(i need a new challenge)

[thorn bane]

also just give them my love
the fact that we can make sushi setups like this is fucking awesome

[oblique hollow]

Because slower flow speed.

We all know mk 2 pipes dont like being still or being interrupted

[stark spire]

That isnt really new data, to me. I think my 2400m3/m recycled rubber and plastic in one continuous loop of pipe displayed that ideally. THat is very edge case, dowesnt really apply to mk1 pipes in a 8:3 coal gen array. Somethng that comes with decades of real life experience with piping systems. But, hey, what would I know about pipes?

[oblique hollow]

I know, IRL to satisfactory isnt all that comparable in the edge cases i'd say.

The 8:3 coal gens thing isnt really at the flow rate limit either.

The best case i could show would be the 2 mk 2 pipes to 5 nukes

There i found that having the mk 2 pipes input almost equally and also switching all the pipes into the nukes to mk 1 being very helpful

The only trouble there is that there's a new save loading issue....

Where pipelines (many segment ones especially) dont seem to save the flow rate correctly causing the water level in nukes to drop
(See: https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/680404866b7c573196367fe2 )

[knotty siren]

I'm kind of confused by this topic of mk 1 and mk2 pipes. Is it better to use mk 1 when you don't need mk2? Or Should I just use mk2 as soon as I have unlocked them?

[bleak wagon]

My understanding is only use mk2 pipes when you have to

[knotty siren]

Hmm

Basically, use mk 2 pipes when you need more than 300m³/m?

[oblique hollow]

Yes. dont use mk 2 if you dont need it

If you have machines that dont specifically need more than 300/min, just connect them with mk 1 pipes

And if you have a mk 2 supply pipe, make the pipes into the machines mk 1 anyway

[knotty siren]

Oh

That makes sense. I do that with belts and manifolds as well

[oblique hollow]

Same goes for inverse:
Want to merge two 250% water extractors? Mk 1 pipes into junction, mk 2 pipe out

[knotty siren]

Gotcha

[bleak wagon]

Im sure its been explained and I havent read it but whats the actual reasoning for why? Pointing me to the message(s) explaining it should be enough. Ty

[oblique hollow]

#math-and-meta message

This, in one part
I'll send the other one soon

[bleak wagon]

Ty

Hmm, ig i need to go around and redo some pipes later

[knotty siren]

Same here

[bleak wagon]

Im ngl i cant be bothered to downgrade 450 pipes going into my nuclear power plants, ive already done the pipes for those 3 times

[oblique hollow]

#math-and-meta message

The nuclear plant i helped fix was the reason i wrote that in the first place

But if your nuke plant has issues, its probably the save loading issue:

#math-and-meta message

[bleak wagon]

I havent finished it yet, ive barely started tbh

[thorn bane]

so did this setup work?
https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/1362075335235211476/1362107661579059210
without the mk1 pipes?
thats what ive been doing

[wind zinc]

what the hell even is this recipe 😭

[knotty siren]

Probably going to be a metric ton of foundries that's for sure

[bleak wagon]

💀

[knotty siren]

I don't blame you. Modifying that much piping would make me want to quit the game forever.

[oblique hollow]

I didnt try it with mk 2 into the nukes. I honestly dont wanna.
Its not needed and i trust my intuition ive gotten with pipes by now and so i believe mk 1 is better

[knotty siren]

What about the case of gas? Such as nitrogen gas or rocket fuel?

[oblique hollow]

Those are also affectes by flow imbalances, so same rules

[knotty siren]

Alright just wanted to double check

[oblique hollow]

Use mk 1 if you dont need more than 300, use mk 1 for everything below or at 300/min

[bleak wagon]

I have 250% overclocked nuclear power plants so 600/min goes to each reactor, mk1 would only be going into a junction for a mk2 pipe

[oblique hollow]

For those nukes, yes, you need a mk 2 into them, no way around that

The only mk 1 you can employ is the mk 1 pipe out of the water extractors

[bleak wagon]

How worth it is doing that? Theres over 400 mk2 pipes id have to change

[oblique hollow]

Its quite fast to just zoom over them and upgrade them. But if you don't want to thats fine of course.

At least until youve run a test.

You SHOULD run a test

Not testing it is kinda the biggest oof you can do

[bleak wagon]

I can run a test on it once i build the damn thing lmao

I have v2 of my plans and about half the resources being transported so hopefully soon i can start building

[oblique hollow]

If you didnt build them then it should be easy to change,no?

Or did you prepare all those water extractors, just not the rest?

[bleak wagon]

The pipes into all the reactors are done already and the rest of the required water goes into pipes to go into the rest of the machines

Ive been working with trains the last few days

[oblique hollow]

I see

[wind spade]

Alt recipe for steel ingots 🤷

[junior escarp]

is this a good setup for a basic rubber, plastic and packaged fuel factory?

[outer vale]

reasonable starter factory, sure

fyi you can add Packaged Fuel as an output directly, instead of canisters/fuel (though obviously the latter there's showing as byproduct rather than explicit output)

[thorn bane]

yo did they change super state computer requirements?
i have Control System Development but i cant get it

ye just unlocked nuclear and got it instantly
@deft lichen @wind spade
https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Supercomputer
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/codex/schematics/alternate-super-state-computer

[odd spoke]

(im new) so i just got the hazmat suit, is there any other ways to get mycelia instead of deforestation with the chain saw, or basically a way to get fabric without mycelia?

[wind spade]

there's a way to get it without mycelia, progress through the game to find out 🙂 (or if you want spoiler: ||use MAM||)

[odd spoke]

alr ty, deforestation it is for now

oh lmfao somehow i missed the part where it says syntheitc fabric on my mam lol

[deft lichen]

@wind spade this is somehow correct on Tools but not on the wiki?

[thorn bane]

maybe its that it requires nuclear power AND constrol system deelopment?
since it includes both batteries and ECRs

[wintry jewel]

there's a way to get fabric without needing deforestation, though it uses oil

[prisma kraken]

because when you have a ton of power from rocket fuel and need something to do with the compacted coal byproduct, the recipe is awesome when you clock it to 250

[wind zinc]

25 steel ingots per minute is good ?
and why not just use the compacted coal to make turbo fuel ?

[prisma kraken]

because you already have built the turbofuel into rocket fuel

[wind spade]

Tools don't have new dataset 🤔 will look at home

[wind zinc]

that doesnt make sense but OK

[prisma kraken]

so, lets say you make a turbofuel plant using 600/min sulfur using whatever recipe. you're essentially tapping a normal sulfur node just to make power. you then do the rocket fuel conversion as a future build and start getting the 250/min compacted coal refund (i picked 250, don't have the numbers in front of me). you can use that ccoal to offset the tf's input and then have 350 unused sulfur from the normal node you tapped which is not a very convenient amount to do anything with and will most likely be unused or you can set up another prod chain to make use of the ccoal byproduct. steel is one option. more turbofuel is another option. a combo of both for making turbodiamonds is probably the best choice

[lavish perch]

Compacted coal can be used in place of normal coal?

[outer vale]

only if there's a recipe to do so

[prisma kraken]

you can burn it in coal gens and there's an alt recipe for nearly any other that takes coal that takes ccoal instead

[lavish perch]

Well you mentioned turbo diamonds which just says “coal”

[prisma kraken]

turbodiamonds are coal + packaged turbofuel

if you're building big, when coal gets tight, turbodiamonds kind of solve that

[lavish perch]

Well either way I’ve got an excess of coal. I was making a rocket fuel factory for power and was gonna use nitro fuel, but I can set some aside for turbo fuel

[prisma kraken]

its a recipe you probably wouldn't want to use to make a casual amount of time crystal, but for like a max ficsonium build or a 60/60/60 continuous elevator delivery goal - at those scales the recipe's efficiency on resources becomes compelling

[lavish perch]

I just got confused cause it sounded like you were saying to use the ccoal byproduct for turbo diamonds

[prisma kraken]

the ugg with the recipe is that it takes packaged turbofuel which means each unit of turbofuel also burns a container

[magic island]

I found that the recipe also synergizes well with drones. Deliver Packaged Turbo to distant coal nodes, come back with Time Crystals.

[frosty owl]

@thorn bane Just got the confirmation that the devs did not know about Programmables being able to load-balance sushi. So it's probably just a "neat coincidence" ^^

They seem interested in keeping it though.

[thorn bane]

eyyy nice

[lavish perch]

That is a pain though I am already going to be creating a lot of polymer resin from turbo and rocket fuel production so not a big deal

40 containers per minute to support a turbo diamonds accelerator shouldn’t be an issue

I’m not gonna be packaging turbo fuel for anything else since I’m already doing packaged rocket fuel

[opaque quartz]

I use compacted coal byproduct to make smokeless powder with the alt recipe there, so my munitions factory is adjacent to my rocket fuel plant

[prisma kraken]

yep, different scales of building

[lavish perch]

Yeah that was my plan for the ccoal byproduct was black powder

Can never have too many explosives

I mean… you can but who cares

[lavish perch]

Going into late game whats probably a good production rate for diamonds?

I just want to know if I need to add plastic production or if I can just feed it off my rocket fuel plant from the polymer resin byproduct

[junior escarp]

got no idea where to make a computer & circuit board factory ;-;

[harsh schooner]

middle of that screenshot so ur in the middle of the ressources you need

[rocky mural]

i used the oil based recipe for these but i guess it depends on where you want to make them/what areas have untapped resources

for my next playthru i'll probably use coal in the nexus area

[opaque quartz]

Circuit boards are only used as an intermediary in other parts, would not recommended making a dedicated production line just for CBs by themselves. Make them inline in the production lines for the resources that need them

Default recipes are oil (plastic) and copper based, but there are alts that can substitute other resources like caterium and silica. Just depends on what is convenient for you

[versed violet]

click rescan on one of existing drives. For some reason final recipe will not pop up otherwise.

[autumn skiff]

Hey which Recipe should I unlock as I am currently implementing coal power and then going to push Phase 2 of Space

[wind spade]

honestly, pick one that you like, if you don't know, flip a coin or leave it for future until you know

all recipes are good in some situations and you can get all recipes anyway

[autumn skiff]

Ok 👍

[prisma kraken]

cast screw is pretty good early, copper rotor gets very nice later

also, you don't need to pick and can just leave the recipes in the list

[bleak wagon]

how well do fluid trains work now?

Ive heard gases work pretty well and liquids are weird

[wind spade]

always worked fine

[bleak wagon]

well i know there used to be bugs with them so I never ended up using them

[wind spade]

not that I know

[bleak wagon]

idk, maybe im thinking of smth else but im pretty sure the trains had issues, I dont remember exactly what they were though. I think it was something along the lines of fluid trains struggling to go up slopes. Ive never used them so I dont know for sure

[wind spade]

don't think that was ever the case, but I may be wrong

[fossil dove]

I just went to see how modular frames are made so that I could automate them, and I need reinforced iron plates

ahhhh

I already have a reinforced iron plate factory

Maybe I can just reuse it?

[wind spade]

make separate RIPs for the modular frames

[fossil dove]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[wind spade]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Independency

[fossil dove]

ok, thx

Is there a way to make this more compact?

Ignore the other factory in the background

[oblique hollow]

how bout you get some foundations

[fossil dove]

besides that

I think the main problem is the terrain tbf

[oblique hollow]

i dont think you could make this any more compact without foundations

because with those you can go 3D

[restive sparrow]

The terrain is an issue which is what the foundations would help with.

Make a flat gridded surface for squeezing shit in and the ability to make multiple floors

[bleak wagon]

for trains transporting large amounts of resources is the hope to not have them come back full?

just close to full

[wind spade]

make them wait for full load, easy 🙂

[bleak wagon]

I have a train going through 2 stations loading 600/min, I know the routes gonna need multiple trains on it, but I stop adding trains once theyre coming back not full right?

[deft lichen]

more trains can hurt throughput, due to the lockout

if you need more capacity, add more freight cars

[bleak wagon]

that would only be if theres too many trains, as long as I buffer it I believe adding a train or two should be fine

all the routes are around 10 minutes so I should only really need 2 trains a route

[thorn bane]

i did

[violet turtle]

if i input 480/min into a train will it always no matter what have 480 throughput

even crossmap

[amber umbra]

@violet turtle No, you need to do some basic math to check the throughput based on the item stack size, round trip time.

There's also some pre made graphs that show the end results (probably on the wiki) if you just want the data.

[deft lichen]

^ stations block their inputs and outputs while a train is docked, so you also have to buffer your platforms

1 industrial container/buffer per, both for loading and unloading

[amber umbra]

There's enough unintuitive stuff with Satisfactory trains that I recommend watch a guide to save time. Then play around with basic setups to validate your designs. Then implement at scale.

[deft lichen]

I'll have to get around to finishing that signal/track layout guide one day...

[violet turtle]

forgive my crude MS paint drawing but

[vapid gorge]

that' being said, once you've got the basics down you can create simple and effective train designs easily

[violet turtle]

these two nodes i can get 480 out of

but i dont wanna scoop up other nodes

but i only have 480 belts

[versed violet]

Did it work? I had such problem with infused cell - can't scan, last hdd only shows one recipe, but it would not show up until I rerolled a drive.

[twilit horizon]

whats a good amount of supercomputers that I should be making p/m?

[deft lichen]

480 each?

[amber umbra]

@twilit horizon 1 per minute

[violet turtle]

two 480 belts

[deft lichen]

Without doing the exact math, I'd guesstimate 4 freight cars/platforms. Split each in two, feed industrial containers connected with 2 belts to each platform

[violet turtle]

how do i tell tho

i dont know how to tell how many freight cars i need

[wind spade]

one per belt is safe bet

[vapid gorge]

generally. Until you hit mk6 belts

[twilit horizon]

you need to time how long it takes for your train to do a round trip. and calculate how much it would make within that time and spilt that amount into each cart capacity

[violet turtle]

but then id iuse two and @deft lichen is saying 4 why

[amber umbra]

If you really can't be asked to math, you can overprovision your train throughput by feeding 1 belt into say 4 wagons with a balancer to guarantee you don't train throughput bottleneck.

Or you can add more trains to a station later (making sure you have parking).

[deft lichen]

If you ignore the lockout, then throughput is just the amount of resources over time. Measure how long it takes to drive the entire route (start and end at the same station) in minutes. Divide the amount of storage slots per freight car (24) with the time, then multiply with the stack size (200) and amount of freight cars

And that's how much throughput your train has

The variables are trip duration, stack size and amount of freight cars

Does that make sense?

[violet turtle]

lockout..?

do you mean when loading how the trains stop making resources come in?

[thorn bane]

i tried rerolling all hard drives i could but nothing happened

[violet turtle]

do i round the minutes

and to what decimal place

[vapid gorge]

whenever the train is loading or unloading, belts stop for 27 seconds

which means you can never move 2 full belts per platform. That's why you have a buffer. 1 belt into ISC , 2 belts to the platform

[violet turtle]

i think im just gonna not do the fancy maths and split it into 2 and use 4 cars

[bleak wagon]

I just be lazy and use multiple trains since I have long routes for what im currently doing

[amber umbra]

Just adding multiple trains per station is one obvious solution. Downside in Satisfactory is that it can make certain station designs get really really bulky. And inability to do parallel stackers ala Factorio make it especially painful.

Mainly feels bad when you have multiple stations in one place. If it’s just a solo station you usually can use the feeding track as the stacker instead which is a “free” stacker.

[bleak wagon]

15 stations in one place is a very fun experience

[amber umbra]

Even like 4 parallel stations of 1-4 trains with an extra parking space for even 1 more train behind each station is so much space. Womp womp no parallel stackers.

[tawdry blade]

Yeah trains as the final stage of long distance transportation feels a bit weak compared to solutions similar games offer.

I mean we get drones for short distance transportation which is worth something

But where is the portal tech, the air carriers, or at least trains that have better speed and /or smarter cargo management options.

I guess I dont love trains enough

[pastel obsidian]

Trains were good when they were released 6 years ago, I think the genre has innovated a lot over those years in gameplay.

We can hope that we get an update or DLC

[bleak wagon]

I think that an update would be the better route, I think a DLC for something like that is not something that would benefit the game, imo if there were to be DLC's for satisfactory it should be more maps

almost done with this, and yes this array does work without wait times, fuck if i know, Ive ran 40 trains through this before realizing i messed up somethign and had to restart

[thorny root]

Another map yes, or a map expansion to the current one, with two more raw resources, and 80 more alt recipes.

[dusky bronze]

space stuff kind of like factorio would be cool too

[thorny root]

That ... is hard to imagine in this game.

[dusky bronze]

tldr what im thinking is rockets to go to new planets (ie you unlock more maps once you beat the current one)

[pastel obsidian]

I wouldn't mind more seasonal events with seasonal items.

Easter,
Chinese New year,

Themed items
Race course (F1)
Rocket league soccer ball and goal post.

I'm sure there are plenty more

[vast inlet]

how many carts can 1 train pull?

[wind spade]

infinitely many

[thorny root]

I think most of us do 1-4, 2-7, 3-10, etc

[pastel obsidian]

I thought it depends on the slope

[wind spade]

"depends on slope" is for max speed afaik

[thorny root]

There's gotta be a certain point at which the train just goes 'nope'

Or at least one would think

[pastel obsidian]

It's 100 wagons on flat rail with no curves and empty wagons

According to the wiki it goes downhill from there

There is a whole lot of math if anyone wants to do it or is testing. I'm sure there is a video or reddit thread on it somewhere

[wind spade]

<@&387163995947270144>

[vast inlet]

has 2 trains pulling 9 carts ina push pull config, feels sluggish vs the smaller trains ive been using

[prisma kraken]

you cna do 4 carraiges comfortably. 5 on a single engine train will be very slow climbing. i think if you are comfortable with glacial paced trains 6 can be done on shallow inclines. on flat rails however, an unlimited amount of cars can be pulled

my personal taste is to stick with 4 cars as a standardized size. makes building your rails less trouble

[vast inlet]

will do ty

[tawdry blade]

Welcome to dyson sphere program lol

[prisma kraken]

what i'd like to honestly see if the game were to get additional content is some sort of water-based transport along with other islands and/or continents that perhaps are RNG generated

[wind spade]

rng maps/new maps are basically confirmed to never happen
afaik water vehicles also got a strict "no"

[pastel obsidian]

I'm still hoping we get custom animations on machines depending on what is being made

[thorny root]

I would like to see more combat gameplay. Invasive species that attack and hinder factories, requiring vigilance or defensive emplacements.

[bleak wagon]

I believe there was originally supposed to be more combat related things in the game, but it was decided that the factory aspect would be focused on more so I dont think that is going to happen

[thorny root]

Yeah, my rifle, nuke stockpile, and turbo ammo stash is waiting for the day though.

[bleak wagon]

what a mess (I dont care lmao)

could definitely have benefited from making a 3:4 load balancer for this but its fine

[lapis jetty]

This pains me and i dont even do neat conveyor belt stuff

[bleak wagon]

lol

I only have copper and a little SAM left to do in this list

[thorny root]

this is one f'd up jigsaw puzzle piece. But oh what a beautiful picture it helps make.

[bleak wagon]

oh my

[thorny root]

this is the last of the unpackagers for the fuel plastic cycle. And man this BARELY fit.

Like... I don't have 0.5m of play here. It's where it can go. That's it.

Thankfully... it fits like a glove. Like it was tailor made. Kinda was.

[bleak wagon]

i think i lost count of how many trains I have going rn

[thorny root]

I put in a lot of effort here to not have to overclock this something funny.

Or build 3. God I don't think I could fit 3.

I'm sure I can't. XD

[bleak wagon]

I need to do a little planning on where Im placing all my refineries at rn

[thorny root]

Well... I've managed to severely compliate a linear process here. With all this roundness. I can't wait to see manage to do with a cyclical process.

[bleak wagon]

starting to place refineries

[polar thorn]

I figured the math for aluminum production only to learn that I can feed fresh water from above or something to prioritize byproduct water 😦

[crimson moat]

I don't believe that the principles behind fluid priority pipes are well understood or documented. It can be done to a degree at least, but it's risky and difficult to generalise at best.

It's a lot easier and more robust to seperate fresh and waste water pipes, and that will even throttle the fresh water for you because the fresh water machines can't intake more water than they're spending.

[polar thorn]

In that case i figured I need 3 water per 20 scrap so I feed the first refinery with the said amount of water then recycle the rest

[crimson moat]

For sloppy + electrode, yeah (:

30% of the bauxite input = fresh water required

[polar thorn]

The other recipe uses more water

[crimson moat]

IDD, recycle ratio is 0.6 instead of 0.7 IIRC

and that compounds with multiple loops.

With 0.6x multiplier per-pass, you get 250% of the water input as your total, so 120 fresh water powers 300 water worth of machines

With 0.7x, you get 333.33% (repeating). So 90 fresh water powers 300 water worth of machines.

[thorny iron]

My setup is 5x that except that the 450 input is only on the two ends and i am not getting enough water for my refineries. Any ideas why?

[crimson moat]

I don't understand the routing based on this picture, but it looks like a very cursed design

[thorny iron]

what's cursed? everything is just connected

[crimson moat]

everything being connected with uneven splits and high flow rates is cursed

Electrode Scrap doesn't have water as an input, why do you have water connected to it

[thorny iron]

the output

[crimson moat]

Ok so you have the refineries mirrored 180 degrees

[polar thorn]

I really don’t get your response.
Sloppy alumina uses almost twice less water compared to the other recipe so the difference can’t be .6 and .7

How do you power 300 worth of water with 90?

[thorny iron]

the output of one is used for the input of the other

[crimson moat]

The 90 water flows around the system an average of 3.333 times before being deleted

So say you input 90 water. That goes through cycle 1, and turns into [90*0.7] water (63).

On cycle 2, 90 fresh enters again, and is added to that 63 water. So 90+63 water (153) runs through the system and is multiplied by 0.7x, which turns it into 107.1 water.

On cycle 3, 90 fresh enters again, and is added to that 107.1 water. 197.1 water runs through the system and is multiplied by 0.7x, which turns it into 170.1 water.

This continues until eventually each cycle 300 water runs through, is multiplied by 0.7x down to 210, and then 90 fresh is added to that which takes it back to 300. At that point is can no longer increase.

There's a steady state of 300 water running through the cycle each time, being reduced by 90 (x0.7) as it turns into sloppy alumina and then comes out again as less water, and that 90 water loss is replaced with 90 fresh. Hence you're inputting 90 water to sustain a consumption of 300 per cycle on the machines.

[polar thorn]

It’s not deleted it’s consumed to produce scrap

[crimson moat]

Whatever word you want to use, net negative water i guess is the best way to say

[crimson moat]

Can you draw arrows on the chart to indicate where you are inputting or drawing resources from? Especially the pipe on the left and right sides.

[oblique hollow]

Heres the precise ratios

Not just for seperate water, but also in general

In vs out

And yeah, sloppy plus electrode is 0.7

Because 180 fresh water and 420 byproduct make 600 total water input

420 / 600 = 0.7

For default recipes, its 0.3333, aka 1/3

[crimson moat]

Yeah that one is awful 😄

I am not sure where i got the 0.6 from

Sloppy plus aluminum scrap i think

[oblique hollow]

Thats ones 0.5

oh wait, no

Yeah 300 / 500, so 0.6

[crimson moat]

sloppy + electrode = 90 fresh water per 300 baux

sloppy + scrap = 120 fresh water per 300 baux

[thorny iron]

How does the Pipeline Juction Work? Can it do:

+ 105
- 200
- 460```
or not because sum of inputs > 600

[oblique hollow]

The water ratio for normal alumina and electrodode is godawful

[crimson moat]

Junction has no flow limit

[oblique hollow]

It can, but that doesnt mean it wants to

[crimson moat]

but you are trying to do some wildly uneven splits and you are sometimes near the pipe flow rate capacity, so you are in unexplored and highly unadvised territory i think.

In general, every exit from a junction should recieve the same amount of flow. It you break that rule you will probably cause consequential backflow, so make sure not to be anywhere near the pipe capacity. 555/600 is too high

[oblique hollow]

If you want these weird numbers, you are better off trying a different solution

[thorny iron]

there is room for 45 more

[crimson moat]

Nah, if you have 560 water going one way and 40 going back then that uses 600/600 of the pipe limit while only actually moving 520 to your desired destination.

And you NEED it to move 555.

[thorny iron]

why is it flowing back

[crimson moat]

Because fluids flow both ways in pipes, and you split the pipe unevenly.

With a pipe junction you should send the same amount of fluid in every direction. They cannot do 200 one way and 460 another way without creating the conditions for consequential backflow.

[oblique hollow]

Initially, when you start this up, it will try to move an equal amount down both pipe outputs

[thorny iron]

so i can't manifold i have to loadbalance?

[oblique hollow]

You can, but not with a single junction

[crimson moat]

You can manifold if and only if you can make a pipe system which tolerates the backflow that it creates.

You can't effectively do that on a 555/600 pipe with uneven splits and erratic input/output values.

Usually the easiest way to create or adapt a system to tolerate manifold backflow is to use a simple junction to split the flow evenly into multiple pipes BEFORE the manifold

[oblique hollow]

Use multiple injection points

How about you send an drawn layout image of your machines

Then we can help you more with dividing the flow

[thorny iron]

i already sent a schematic

[oblique hollow]

Or is that just the one from. above

I don't understand why you move in 450 extra and then move out 270

[thorny iron]

i mean i connected 5 of this groups together so the next block useses the 270 as input instead of the 450

[oblique hollow]

No, keep the blocks seperated

[river night]

if you moved the first consumer to the first junction to reduce the overall volume at that point, it might take a bunch of pressure off and just work?

[oblique hollow]

Do not try to make some fancy giant interconnected pipe mess

[crimson moat]

Yeah, with aluminum i would also strongly recommend to make a module of machines that work together as one in the simplest and smallest configuration possible to do the work.

Tile that.

I use 6 refineries with 90 water input into the first one to process 300 bauxite, they're connected to each other as they have to be but not connected to anything else.

[oblique hollow]

Keep it as simple as possible / doable

This block needs 180 fresh water so you give it 180.

Thats the most you should expect from this

[thorny iron]

I'll try adding more pipes and junctions

i mean it gets 180 fresh water it gets 450 and routes 270 through so 450-270=180

[oblique hollow]

no

do not do this

do not try to route the 270 through this

This just wastes pipe capacity because you (presumably?) didnt want to move it in a seperate pipe

Its not a good strategy

[crimson moat]

This is my standard bauxite module

Input 90 water, 300 baux, some coke. Output 600 scrap. If it's not in the picture, it's not connected. It's a couple of blueprints and you can build the same thing 50 times next to each other if you want to handle 15000 bauxite.

[oblique hollow]

this is doable, but thats already a bit risky as its a combined water feedback line system

[thorny iron]

How about that

[oblique hollow]

you really want one pipe for this, do you?

[thorny iron]

i mean i have one water input line from the lake

[crimson moat]

That line where you have written "555" will try to flow 277 down and 277 across.

[crimson moat]

Split it evenly with junctions before attaching it to refineries, now you have 2/3/4/6/8/etc inputs.

[thorny iron]

yeah the numbers are now diffrent

[fallow siren]

its easier to just separate pipe system for fresh and waste water

[oblique hollow]

you can split it up beforehand.

One of the few cases where you could use 2 valves

valve on the 180/min line, valve on the 270/min line
make both mk 1 pipes.

input stays mk 2 because its 450/min

this entire section could be mk 1 pipes now

[thorny iron]

is there a reason for mk1 instead of mk2

[oblique hollow]

yes: dont use faster pipes if you dont need them

junctions dont like it

flow is steadier in slower pipes.
In mk 2, this would oscillate too much

and that can either be annoying or detrimental

[thorny iron]

i just added a new mk2 pipe from the first junction to a random one kind of in the middle and wait now to see

if that doesn't work i try seperating the blocks

[thorny iron]

even that doesn't seem to work

Adding a few pumps seemed to fix it (even though I don't need headlift, maybe they generate a more steady directional flow and reduce back flow)

[tawdry blade]

Whyy not keep byproduct and extracted water strictly seperated

Less prone to error, barely any extra work.

[pastel obsidian]

Have an extra tool to solve problems with. Some find it more pleasing as well

[pine grove]

Any idea how to reduce water extractor usage for 10 max overclock coal gen?☹️

I have calculated water requirements for each coalgen was 100+

[vast inlet]

reduce? like underclock the water extractors ? o

or build less of them?

[pine grove]

Efficiency indeed, but lack resources

[vast inlet]

why manifold pipe 1:1

[restive sparrow]

Each overclocked coal gen need 112.5 water/m. Each water extractor extracts 120 water/m if running at baseline 100%. If you wanted to build fewer water extractors you could overclock them too.

Overclock them to 112.5*2/120 and you could use 1 water extractor for every 2 generators.

Personally I don't worry about overclocking water extractors unless I run out of room to put more in. No problem having a bunch of them.

Alternatively you could manifold pipes together to make up for the fact that 112.5 is less than 120. You could do this all with 9 water extractors with one of them overclocked with some clever manifolding, but all of that seems like more hassle than it is worth.

[pine grove]

I think it'll produce better flow

[vast inlet]

how 1:1 is perfect and no game calulation going though pipe junctions

[restive sparrow]

It's simple which has some advantages but you're also using a machine that makes 120 of something to feed a machine that needs 112.5. If your aim is efficiency you should try to close that gap.

[pine grove]

I sepperate pipe lines for it limits 600^m3. 5 water extractor for 5 coal gen

[pine grove]

Alright thanks😁👍🏻

[restive sparrow]

Coal generators typically can be sent water by 3 extractors for every 8 generators if everything is simply at 100%. If you used generators at 200% instead of 250 this would still work out to nice clean math of need 6 extractors for every 8 generators. That's one approach you could take.

[pine grove]

Simply understood, thanks 👍🏻😁

[restive sparrow]

My personal philosophy tends to avoid overclocking things that consume materials and instead overclock things that extract materials, since the only advantage of overclocking consumers is that you need fewer machines. Overclocking extractors (including miners, oil, well pressurizers etc) means you need fewer nodes which frequently means you get more out of your location.

For some people, though, having a smaller footprint is a big advantage so overclocking consumers (like coal generators) is perfect for them. The choice is up to you!

[pine grove]

By all means it's normal to have 10 water extractor?

[restive sparrow]

It's normal to have as many water extractors as you need! Some people don't like building a ton of water extractors so they choose to overclock them. I haven't needed to do that yet aside from one case where I could only fit 3 extractors in a little pond lol

[pine grove]

Lmaoo, thanks for the tips, helps a lot🥂

[restive sparrow]

Have fun!

[prisma kraken]

before the 1.0 release, when power shards were more limited, i favored your thoughts. with the ubiquity of power shards now, i think it should be recognized that you can and should use them anywhere that is convenient

one of my favorite uses for them is to turn a production line of 5 machines into 4 @ 125% or 2 @ 250% which accomodates balanced splitting of inputs

another quick fact i'll make note of is tha the mk6 belt speed (1200) is 250% of the mk4 belt speed (480), which means that you can start building forever factories with a plan to OC them and upgrade the belts when you get mk4 belts unlocked

[vast inlet]

ever just 1. something short and ya factory starts breaking

[versed violet]

Try searching list manually - the search bar sometimes does not find recipe by name. If its not in the list and rerolling 1-2 drives didn't fix it, either you have it unlocked already, or game thinks you do not fulfill the requirements yet - check wiki what those are.

[polar thorn]

What’s the point of this? Is it for fun ?
Because coal isn’t that great to begin with, it’s more efficient to work towards fuel generators

If you’re using too much water for megawatts it’s probably the wrong technology

[bleak wagon]

I always overclock water extractors, Im building a nuclear power plants over the water, but all 500 of the extractors are overclocked for my sanity and making the pipes going into 250% nuclear power plants simple

[bleak wagon]

Ooo, ty for this info, in 400 hours when im done with my current save i can remember that

[restive sparrow]

For Nuclear this becomes an obvious choice that I will be doing as well, because the scale is so so large.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, fuel generators also beg for overclocking

[restive sparrow]

The 250% mk4-mk6 thing is pretty clutch.

Fuel gens are pretty damn fat. Nice to not need as many. I just built an enormous building for them, but that's not super ideal in a lot of respects.

[bleak wagon]

In my .8 save i had a 2 layer platform with i think 533 100%(not oc) fuel generators

[prisma kraken]

yeah, still when you go to using rocket fuel, the number of generators gets pretty chonky

plus oc'ing generators doesn't cost anything besides shards

[bleak wagon]

Im just doing nuclear, I havent done it yet so more fun for me since its new

[restive sparrow]

Phew! 533?! I made 3 floor cube of 16 per floor. I thought that was a lot!

[prisma kraken]

my 1.0 save and what i'm not building in the 1.1 world is 192 generators @gilded gust

grrrr at discords autocomplete

[bleak wagon]

Took me like 14 hours to do it all, had a 60HMF/min factory though so didnt struggle for materials lol

[restive sparrow]

I'm working on the satelite factories making all of the components for fuel rods to try to jump directly from turbo fuel to nuclear.

[bleak wagon]

Talking about this makes me remember i need to plan the locations of my ficsonium fuel rod nuclear power plants

[restive sparrow]

It's been like a week, mostly running rails and setting up stations.

[bleak wagon]

I have trains taking everything to my build location, finally starting placing machines last night

[restive sparrow]

The trains were the biggest thing for the effort so far. Mostly cause I planned things like "oh I'll build this HERE" then when I get there it takes like 40918239812 hours to figure out how I"m gonna squeeze the damn stations in.

I am -NOT- very good at compact stations and rail interchanges aparently.

Getting the curves to merge the traffic on and off ends up tricky when you don't have a lot of flat ground to work with

[bleak wagon]

I will admit, my main rails are from a megaprint on SCIM, but Ive done a lot of setting stuff up on the megaprint

[restive sparrow]

(trying to not fly everything too high)

[restive sparrow]

This was so tempting! I've just been trying to learn how to do it. It's been an interesting journey.

The stations have by far been the biggest challenge.

[bleak wagon]

Ik how to do it im lazy though

[restive sparrow]

I respect this

[bleak wagon]

Did it in .8 dont feel like doing it again

Oh that finally sent

Thats one of my pictures of the area im doing nuclear in so far

[pine grove]

Well, im not in the late game so, its better than the biomass burner atleast

[bleak wagon]

Tbf you can pretty easily get to fuel generators with 8 coal generators clocked at 100%

[versed violet]

You can totally get to nuclear with just two fuel gens (or none - the two were for burning excess fuel)

[bleak wagon]

I have i think 20 normal fuel gens and am in t9

Working in nuclear while draining power storage

[prisma kraken]

fuel actually isn't that tricky to do an early build of. pictured is the quicky plant i set up early, making 2.5gw

default fuel isn't the orders-of-magnitude gain of a proper dilluted or turbofuel build, but it can be a useful stopgap and super-quick build to do

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, i desperately need to setup some diluted fuel so i stop draining my power storage keeping my factory online

[polar thorn]

I do 3 sets of 6 and I don’t even need fuel gens right away
It’s a chore but once it’s done you’re good

[polar thorn]

How? With 4 generators ?

[prisma kraken]

no big trick to it

incidentally, out of any of the fuel generation methods, default fuel has the smallest overhead of any of the recipes

[polar thorn]

The trick is to use 18 power shards

I think of fuel as a byproduct of plastic and rubber
It makes more sense and it’s easier overall

[jovial scroll]

debating if I want to double or triple production hmm

honestly not as many machines as I assumed it to be

🤔 debating if I want to make the project bigger or not since this is just for personal use

[polar thorn]

Why rubber concrete over wet concrete?

[jovial scroll]

its more effective on the concrete?

and produces more? and saves on more room?

[polar thorn]

All 3? I think wet is best to save limestone
And water is goat

[jovial scroll]

sure its a bit more expensive but I say why not, since im already bringing over rubber for the other thing

[polar thorn]

You already bring water too

[jovial scroll]

pretty sure it uses less limestone overall

[polar thorn]

Lemme check

[jovial scroll]

yep it does

100 for 90/min compared to 120 for 80/min

I feel rubber is pretty simple to setup and I seem to always be overflowing with it anyway

[polar thorn]

Oh you’re right
It’s just that bringing water is easier and I’m more lazy I guess lol

[jovial scroll]

lowkey I Feel water is harder to bring over in this case anyway

since id need only 1 pipe

compared to with wet concrete id need MANY pipes

well not 100% true

[polar thorn]

Debating 20 rubber per minute versus 100 water per minute

My choice is done lol

[jovial scroll]

its easily rubber imo XD

[polar thorn]

Rubber means refinery, that alone turns me off

[jovial scroll]

I mean yes, but the way im doing it, ill need it for other things anyway

[polar thorn]

Still it’s 20 per minutes yikes

[jovial scroll]

petrolium coke+rubber+plastic is needed

[jovial scroll]

thats only like 3 refinerys for 10 hmf/min

[polar thorn]

Means it’s a full refinery

Yeah not for me

[polar thorn]

For HMF using rubber it makes sense I’ll give you that

[jovial scroll]

im not using rubber for the hmf itself

but the recipies to make a hmf is so effective with using oil products

OK I cant do that alternate XD

400 lolll

i cant be that greedy ops lol

NM IM DUMB

honestly not badd

i can also use the leftover fuel as power gen

or could swap to other alternate

or do like half and half

🤔 thinking about it 10/min might be too little with me doing max complexity anyway

I might also want to do fuel refineries that is half and half on alternates hmm

[dusky bronze]

i wish i knew about that production chain when i mas making my hmf factory

thats going into the later folder ig

[jovial scroll]

any ideas on how I should do for the alternates? cus I dont really just wanna burn it off as fuel if I can help it

[dusky bronze]

nope

my hmf factory just runs off iron

[jovial scroll]

cus heavy oil resadue+polymer rezin alternates, and I kinda need both

[dusky bronze]

should be making like 22/min off of 4800 iron

[jovial scroll]

pain

[dusky bronze]

and i think 1200 coal

[jovial scroll]

if I went for same scale as u, Id need only like 700 iron

and no coal

[dusky bronze]

yeah

i am absolutely going to do that once im done with this nuclear plant

[jovial scroll]

the only worries if I were to want to make a giant power generator I guess

[dusky bronze]

the 630GW im gonna making will solve that

[jovial scroll]

unsure for me tho

[jovial scroll]

sooo I think I got the program to work with me and solve it

lets goo

[jovial scroll]

for 22/min

dang 22/min works out really well too

[dusky bronze]

i dont even need that much thats just how much i could make with the resources i had

[jovial scroll]

I might just go for 22/min since I feel 10/min might not be enough

[jovial scroll]

yeah fair lmao theres so many resources

its impressive how little resources u can consume though

[dusky bronze]

yeah

i think ideally im gonna want at least 30/min

probably going up to 40

[jovial scroll]

only 3 normal oil nodes, 10 normal limestone nodes, 5 water nodes

[jovial scroll]

what for?

[dusky bronze]

space elevator/sink

[jovial scroll]

like space elevator parts?

[dusky bronze]

and some fused frames/hmf for me too

[jovial scroll]

tbh im debating just doing everything from the bottom again whenever I need hmf to make another complex process, but maybe for more complex things like hmf maybe I should just make it larger then just train it to places who need hmf hmmm

I did not think of that

due to how complex this is, I wont really be able to do it this way if I mostly want to make local

[jovial scroll]

your lowkey making me want to do like 40/min to prep for future now 💀

hmmm

the only issue is the limestone

and honestly thats just scattered all over the place anyway

[jovial scroll]

do you think 40/min is enough for what your doing in later stages?

[dusky bronze]

should be

they're really just used in nuclear pasta and warp drives

making 40/min i get this

[jovial scroll]

how much hmf do u need for those?

[dusky bronze]

40/min gets me 20 warp drives which is more than enough

[jovial scroll]

oh I see 40.08

[jovial scroll]

id also need to compsisate for my own personal se of it though, I dont know if im going to do that giga of a base tho

[dusky bronze]

i probably wont either

going to set aside probably like 5 hmf for me and the same for fused frames

and with the size of the nuclear plant making that much warp drives is pushing a couple resources

[jovial scroll]

honestly depending on what my partner thinks ima prob settle for 30hmf/min and that should hold us over just fine hopefuly?

[dusky bronze]

hopefully

unless you're going for sink stuff you dont really need any more than like 2 warp drives/min right?

[jovial scroll]

will 30hmf/min rly not be enough later on

[jovial scroll]

if I do sink stuff it will be a overflow filter anyway

[jovial scroll]

is hmf used for anything else?

[dusky bronze]

all recipes for it

[jovial scroll]

maybe 30/min would be overkill hmmm

nawww 30/min prob sweet spot

with me playing in a coop

we could prob burn though the hmf supply really easily

[dusky bronze]

my #1 concern is having enough for 252 reactors

i think i only have like 1500 left over from before i destroyed the old factory and my new one is only making like 10/min atm

[spiral geode]

Regarding residual water in the alumina solution loop: What is the value of a system using a VIP style junction versus just limiting the water going into the system that takes into account what the residual amount of water will be? (e.g., System needs 540 water, you get 180 back so you only put 360 in)

[wind spade]

neither is great, best is separate system for fresh and recycled water - that makes sure that it doesn't break even if production stops

[polar thorn]

And since we use 3 water per 20 scrap it’s easy to know how much water input is needed for full consumption

[polar thorn]

For a mk5 belt of scrap we need 117 water input so just under clocking a machine is enough to reduce the input water flow

[bleak wagon]

what if you just...

use only the waste water in your system

[quick gorge]

Fun fact. If I had a dollar for every time I tabbed into this channel to see Greeny say that there is not best recipe for something I would be able to buy the game at least 7 more times.

[bleak wagon]

lol

[wind spade]

I wasn't talking about "best recipe" though?

[wind spade]

then sure, this is a bit better. But almost nobody does that

[bleak wagon]

yeah, Im only doing it because I dont really care about my sloops past using them in nuclear and it means i dont have to deal with waste water

[wind spade]

oh mb I thought I'm replying in another thread, ignore my above message

but yeah, you can get rid of extra water with many options (e.g. pure/wet recipes, coal gens, etc.)

[bleak wagon]

yeah, Im just trying to make sure theres no systems relying on each other for water in my nuclear plant, if this was anything else Id be making use of the waste water

[quick gorge]

I meant in general, I have a separate count for fluid recycling and dependency 👀

[bleak wagon]

lmfao

[wind spade]

sorry for spreading wisdom

[quick gorge]

Doing FICSIT's work

They gotta make the books in the hub actually readable... of course the plumbing book just has the piping PDF open up

[bleak wagon]

I should really start double checking stuff before I start routing around it...

I split my refinery pipelines way too early, they shouldve been 2x as long

shouldnt be too bad to fix. I hope.

Im really going after that "FICSIT's dumbest pioneer" title

[bleak wagon]

how should I go about load balancing 13 belts?

[wind spade]

first question I'd ask would be "why do you want to balance them?"

[jovial scroll]

IDK maybe look it up on internet

[prisma kraken]

you essentiall build a 16x16 balancer out of 4x4 balancers and then don't use 3 inputs & outputs

[bleak wagon]

fun, Im so glad I have a very big logistics area I didnt even mean to make

[bleak wagon]

so i can have even lines of machines

[jovial scroll]

Please don't

[wind spade]

well you can also just connect each belt to X machines (X being the number to perfectly eat the resources out of the belt)

[prisma kraken]

before trying to do something like that, examine your premise and assumptions and take a step back and see if there's a simpler solution

[bleak wagon]

yeah, I do think I thought of a simpler solution as soon as I asked lmao

[wind spade]

(don't get me wrong, if you want to build a balancer for the sake of building it, go for it. But in general, people who ask for balancers don't know that there's simpler ways 🙂 )

[prisma kraken]

do remember that you do control the speed stuff is put on a belt. oft times grooming your output to match input results in simpler and more elegant solutions

[jovial scroll]

Imagine doing a playthough while doing load balancing only 💀

[bleak wagon]

yeah I found a better way to do this because I made a mistake

[prisma kraken]

i think in my current playthrough, the only prod lines i haven't balanced are quickwire and oil

[quick gorge]

A sushi only playthrough...

[jovial scroll]

Dang

[bleak wagon]

thats not even that bad

sushi is fun

[jovial scroll]

Its not that bad

[prisma kraken]

take it to the next level then and do single input sushi

[quick gorge]

cough
Have every recipe needed to complete the game on a single sushi belt

Your subtotal amount of items at any point is 1200 and it will still take you a long ass time before you get to that

[prisma kraken]

it is very difficult to do that. you have to be very careful of what ends up on your main bus

[quick gorge]

So a challenge >:)

[bleak wagon]

I love catching silly mistakes by rechecking my math, I for some reason thought 15 pure iron ingot refineries would use 600 water...

[prisma kraken]

you can kind of cheat with it and inject from truck stations

[jovial scroll]

xD

this is why I use a calculator to double check it

[bleak wagon]

oh ive got the entire thing for what im doing rn laid out as numbers, I just realized i was running out of pipes and was like wait a minute

[quick gorge]

You've earnt the FOKIT award

I was bored

[bleak wagon]

yay

[bleak wagon]

Just realized I need 380 refineries for pure copper

[quick gorge]

at 250?

[bleak wagon]

some

[quick gorge]

how many is some?

[bleak wagon]

120

just got finished placing 200 pure iron refineries though

my main thing rn is just figuring out how I want to move up to the next floor of my refinery tower

[quick gorge]

And here I am trying to make a miner look cool

[bleak wagon]

I need to figure something out for designing this

[quick gorge]

well I suppose the more accurate.. unspaghetti my sleep schedule

Make more shards and get them all to 250

[bleak wagon]

those are for iron

[quick gorge]

Lovely!

[bleak wagon]

theres 200 of them

[tawdry blade]

Specify, what is your goal-
the actual factory layout, or how to make it look dope?

[bleak wagon]

this is my nuclear power plant, finally starting to place machines in. Im working on design as I go with this, but the end goal is for it to not be a big fucking box

or at least if it is a box in the end, not a box with flat walls

[tawdry blade]

I see... well make your box.

[bleak wagon]

THATS NOT THE GOAL

Im tired of building boxes for factories lol

[thorny root]

taunts you with circles

[bleak wagon]

nonononononononononono

[thorny root]

Hexagons?

They are a gateway drug to circles tho so be warned.

[bleak wagon]

Ive built with octagons before

[thorny root]

Well... Hexagons are mathematical magic.

[quick gorge]

I need to make a pentagon factory...

[bleak wagon]

I think im starting to get somewhere with making this not a floating platform

[thorny root]

Like... Did you know... The distance along the perimeter from point to point... is always the same as the distance from center?

[bleak wagon]

yes actually

[thorny root]

Do you know how elegant and beautiful a 120 degree train 3 way is, bordering hexagonal tiled factories?

[bleak wagon]

nope

[thorny root]

It's so clean.

It'll make you wonder why you stayed square for so long.

[bleak wagon]

in other words, it will make me question my life choices as I suffer building hexagonal platforms

[thorny root]

Well you're building your refinery now... you gonna run any fuel gens at the end of that?

[bleak wagon]

nope, Im hoping to just live off the 1300 GW from nuclear

[thorny root]

Yeah that'll be enough. You're not going to hit 800GW usage you're using the wrong alts to maximize resource availability. Which you've said you're fine with, but I'd like to assure you that'll be enough power XD

You were probably already pretty sure anyway.

[bleak wagon]

this will be my first complete playthrough, I will likely do more planning for my next playthrough whenever that happens

[bleak wagon]

yeah, I was fairly confident I wouldnt need anymore power than this

Id have to do something pretty wrong to need more power

[thorny root]

Yeah just wait until we can start building powered residences, and feed them luxuries like computers and super computers... Then we'll see how much power is left!

[bleak wagon]

lol

[thorny root]

Yes its a pipe dream.

Just like my nuclear launch options in the bug war.

But I can make it up and pretend.

[bleak wagon]

im struggling to think of more to decorate with

[prisma kraken]

first 5gw of the new power plant up and running

the other 3/4's should be pretty quick to build

[bleak wagon]

Im really hoping I pick up the pace on this nuclear plant because I barely have a good enough power grid to sustain my stuff rn

[prisma kraken]

kind of the danger any time you rush nuclear

[bleak wagon]

It should be fine since machines will go idle as I build

Ive got a lot of stored power so I will be fine, I just have to have my power storage completely full before I can power on my nuclear plant entirely

[jovial scroll]

just build like 20 more fuel gens 😄

[bleak wagon]

did that earlier lol

[jovial scroll]

20 more 😄

[bleak wagon]

Only once Im draining power storage again

currently its charging with 30 hours left lol

[jovial scroll]

💀

ima make sure I get a good enough of a fuel gen setup before I push for nuclear lol

cus I dont really wanna do turbo fuel

[bleak wagon]

I have 20GW rn

[jovial scroll]

im working on hmf atm

[bleak wagon]

well, just started placing copper refineries

I also definitely have not rushed this save, im at 133 hours (ive been working on nuclear for the last 25 hours of playtime)

[jovial scroll]

are u not using BPs?

[bleak wagon]

I am

Im not that insane

most of this is just auto connect the blueprint and deal with the outputs later

[jovial scroll]

me who hit like t7 pre bp update last save

lmao

[bleak wagon]

oh dont worry, ive been playing since before lifts exists

I know the pre blueprint experience

[jovial scroll]

sounds like pain

I remember before floor holes lol

[bleak wagon]

I just

send the lift through the floor

[jovial scroll]

ik it looked so bad tho 😦

[bleak wagon]

oh shit, my dimensional depots are hating me rn

wait how of all things am i out of copper sheets first, normally its motors

[jovial scroll]

Do u not have more then 1 depot set up

[bleak wagon]

i should max the dimensional depot upload speed rq, i forgot i went mercer sphere hunting

[bleak wagon]

uh, only for concrete, everything else hasnt been an issue

[jovial scroll]

No i mean more then 1 depot per resorce

Ah

[bleak wagon]

yeah ik

istg im about to go setup another copper node on sheets

bouta upgrade the copper sheet maker

oh its got so much room to improve

oh god

was this worth it? absolutely (probably not)

shit my game just crashed

cool i have a save from 2 minutes before i crashed

oh im like entirely out of motors now, none left in storage...

that is. not good

[prisma kraken]

they're kind of the first pita part to properly automate because it ends up being really painful when you run out 😛

[bleak wagon]

yeah 5/min is not gonna cut it when im burning like 40 a second

havent been here in a while

[prisma kraken]

i kind of did a half-assed factory for them that i mean to tear apart at some point - uses qwire stator & copper rotor for 20/min

[bleak wagon]

i think im using only steel and wires on my motors everywhere

ig i have a side project because this is not worth redesigning because then everything else has to get changed around

can probably pull that off pretty easily

found a spot already lol

[bleak wagon]

power is not enjoying this

wish id have thought that through a little more

[bleak wagon]

done

85 motors a minute

do not take a closer look for your own sake

[prisma kraken]

up to 20 gw 🙂

2 more modules to go

[bleak wagon]

I need more power once again

off to the northern coast

[prisma kraken]

build a quick diluted fuel plant

[bleak wagon]

yeah im about to do that

its gonna look about as good as my quick motor factory

it took me less than 30 minutes to get 80 motors a minute going btw

[prisma kraken]

you can get a cool 10gw from it very quickly

also, clocking the refineries & generators to 250 with the blenders at 200 makes it super compact

[bleak wagon]

thats a thing for tomorrow, I need to go to bed soon cause I have to wake up at 5am and its almost midnight

I have made many diluted fuel plants though so I can definitely get that done quickly

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm hoping to get this plant fully up producing turbofuel tonight

[bleak wagon]

I need to just, stop using more power lol

[prisma kraken]

you can't. the game is kind of designed for power to be your antagonist

[bleak wagon]

well

once i have nuclear finished i wont have to worry about power

if i had any amount of waste management ready i could just rush uranium rods, but thats a horrible idea

[prisma kraken]

what i'm building right now is going to end up being a 120gw rocket fuel build that i may end up converting over to 166gw of ion fuel

[bleak wagon]

ion fuel is normally pretty bad return on power

[prisma kraken]

whether i end up doing ion fuel is kind of a question mark

[bleak wagon]

Im only making ion fuel for drones and jetpack

[prisma kraken]

i've budgeted in the space for the extra refineries

[bleak wagon]

this is my planning for ion rocket fuel

[prisma kraken]

minus the powershards & nitric acid, this is what i'm building

[bleak wagon]

ah

[prisma kraken]

putting in 600 sulfur and getting 450 compacted coal out is pretty good™️

[bleak wagon]

this is what im currently doing rn

its not really readable but whatever

[prisma kraken]

idk how you can even make sense of those diagrams