math-and-meta

[plain rivet]

if you mouse over it, it will show the exact value

in fact it shows you as a fraction you can put in the formula, so you don't have to round at all

[stiff walrus]

Is there a way to "smoothen" a belt throughput? I got lots of refineries with pure iron ingot and the are almost in sync, so I got 390 ingots in huge burst and then an empty belt. Is there away to create a more constant flow with some kind of buffer system?

[harsh mason]

you could balance them to two or more belts and hide the jerky one

[outer vale]

is the bursting actually a problem? it shouldn't be

[harsh mason]

it's not a problem unless you want the appearance of continuous flow

[outer vale]

if your belts can't handle the 390 immediately, then they'll just take a lil longer to come out, but won't back up long term

if you use a lower speed belt somewhere near the start after they're all gathered onto one belt, then that should smooth it out somewhat for the rest

as long as it's still fast enough to handle the average rate needed

[stiff walrus]

Like he said, I want a constant flow. That's the reason I don't use manifold. I hate stuttering items 😅

[opal locust]

I'm still losing it in this Rubber/Plastic build

[outer vale]

then yeah, tuning your belt speeds is the only thing you can really do

[thorn bane]

390 is 270 + 120 so thats super easy
just split into 2 belts of mk3 and mk2 and then remerge
should be continuous from then on

[outer vale]

sounds like their rate's not actually 390/min mind

[stiff walrus]

I maybe came up with a solution, but only works with this specific number. storage container 2 as buffer, Mk2 and Mk3 belt on the output

[opal locust]

I got this far and now I'm lost again

[thorn bane]

you can do it will all numbers if youre willing to get weird with the splitter logic xD

[outer vale]

the solution for an arbitrary rate just boils down to doing a perfect split I think

[opaque quartz]

My suggestion? Draw the entire build out on a piece of paper with all the logical groups and numbers before you build anything in game

[outer vale]

personally, I don't mind the outputs being bursty, but I do like my inputs not to stall if I can help it

[opal locust]

I have the first refinery making the residual rubber, but where do I get the rest of the rubber?

[outer vale]

from the recycling

rubber -> recycled plastic -> recycled rubber (-> recycled plastic), essentially

[opaque quartz]

The residual rubber primes the system, it feeds itself after that

[opal locust]

but it doesn't make enough rubber to feed the recycled plastic refineries

[outer vale]

where are the recycled rubber refineries?

[opal locust]

I haven't made them yet

[thorn bane]

#math-and-meta message
this is 333.33/min for example 🙃

[outer vale]

it's a loop, you need both

just plug it into Tools with whatever you're trying to do

[harsh mason]

make an equal number of each and half feeds back to the corresponding system and half is output

[opal locust]

I tried plugging it into Tools

this led to a multi-hour discussion last night that went nowhere and I was told to sleep it off

[outer vale]

nice

well at least this time you've got different people, hopefully

what are you actually trying to do?

[thorn bane]

my setup
even better now with priority mergers (the bottom merger)

[opaque quartz]

Specifically:
how much crude oil input?
desired plastic output?
desired rubber output?

[opal locust]

Turn 600 crude oil into a bunch of recycled plastic/rubber

[outer vale]

"a bunch"
how much

[opal locust]

900 plastic/rubber

[outer vale]

okay, so a tad more than your belts can support easily, so best split into 2 sets probably. let's see

mk5 belts I assume?

[opal locust]

Yes

[harsh mason]

when I do the recycling, I use smart splitters to prioritize cross feeding FWIW

[outer vale]

here's a quarter of what you'd need, fitting nicely in your belts and still using nice building counts (at least, as nice as you can get with recycling)

[thorn bane]

well its also 1600 fuel so probably split into 3

or 4, thats fine aswell

[opaque quartz]

other option is to split your recycled refineries into two groups - one only for feedback and the other only for output

that's how I did it

[outer vale]

yeah, that's what I did for my thing but that might be a tad confusing in this instance

[opal locust]

Yeah I look at that and it doesn't make sense

[opaque quartz]

to be fair - the recycled plastic/rubber production loop might very well be the most complicated production chain in the game

[outer vale]

since you can belt and pipe all this, what you can do is

• the HOR, Diluted Fuel stuff somewhere
• Do the Residual Rubber and Recycled Rubber onto one rubber belt
• Do the Recycled Plastic onto one plastic belt
• Run the rubber into a smart splitter, with the Any going into the plastic refineries, and the Overflow as your output
• Run the plastic into another smart splitter, with the Any going into the Recycled Rubber refineries, and the overflow as your output

Then repeat 3 more times to get your full output

[opal locust]

I have never trusted sushi belts

[outer vale]

no sushi there

[thorn bane]

im a fan of doing 1 rubber 1 plastic alternating with the plastic turned 180

[opal locust]

So what, tear all this down and start over again?

[opaque quartz]

again, my suggestion is to sketch the entire plan out on a piece of paper before doing anything in game

[opal locust]

I don't know how I can picture it on a piece of paper

[opaque quartz]

boxes and arrows indicating the types of machines. logical grouping and placement

[thorn bane]

eh building it ingame is also fine
like place the refineries first, no logistics to try to understand what goes where
easier to move stuff around imo

[opal locust]

I have no real life engineering experience, I can't work it out on paper

[outer vale]

behold, glorious Paint

doesn't include the Fuel/Resin/Water in, just the meat of the Recycled part

[thorn bane]

id use a prio merger for the residual rubber instead of putting it at the end of the manifold but ye xD

[outer vale]

presumably you could prio merge them in, but should be fine as-is

positions obviously don't have to be exactly followed. It can be quite convenient to just put the plastic referines in line with the rubber ones and just facing the other way

[civic bronze]

Yo this is dumb but if manufactuer is 2x2x2, and there would be a building 4x4x4 with 8 inputs

• that means its 8 bigger right? Because you could fit 8 manufactuers in that space?

[outer vale]

yes?

not sure if those sizes are correct, but if they were, then yes

[civic bronze]

People in sf chat argue it would be 2x bigger

[opal locust]

But, how do I connect them?

[outer vale]

they're the same people who think a mk2 blueprint designer is only 25% bigger than a mk1

[thorn bane]

that has the advantage of reducing the throughput of the belt since you constantly adding and subtracting instead of only at the end
but it doesnt matter if you only go for 300/300 (555 rubber internaly)

[opal locust]

If you do it in segments of 4, how do you connect them at the end?

[outer vale]

you have four belts of 225 plastic and four of 225 rubber, do as you like

it's not like you could connect them all onto one regardless of how you do it, 900 won't fit on a mk5

you could merge 'em into 450s, could merge into a 675 and a 225, could priority merge into a 780 and a 120, could just not merge at all

what's sensible depends on what you're doing with the outputs

and not particularly important for this stage

[opaque quartz]

you could also consider scaling back your plans. 300 crude into 450 plastic + 450 rubber is still plenty

[restive sparrow]

Doesn't this work without the smart splitters by the same principle as a manifold?

[opal locust]

it's not about scale, it's about logistics

[opaque quartz]

not having to work around belt limits will simplify your logistics

[outer vale]

yes, but IMO it's best to force saturation so it gets up to speed quicker

[restive sparrow]

That's fair

[opal locust]

like, how am I supposed to get the fuel to all those refineries?

[outer vale]

with a pipe

[opal locust]

I'm not in the mood for smartass answers

[outer vale]

one pipe

probably loop it just to be sure, I'm too lazy to draw that

[opaque quartz]

you're going to need to give yourself decent room for logistics. my suggestion is to make sure you have at least 2 or 3 foundations gap between all of your machines

[outer vale]

that's just good building advice in general

[opaque quartz]

i would also suggest placing all of your machines first before running any logistics

[outer vale]

but yeah there's nothing magical about how you connect it all together once you've got the recycling bit sorted

"with a pipe" really is all you need to do

[opal locust]

fine, let's break it down further

because I'm stupid

[restive sparrow]

Cut that out. You're not stupid.

[opal locust]

1 HOR refinery at a time, so this setup 8 times?

[tropic hawk]

essentially

[outer vale]

sure

added a lil more to my art, this is still on the 225/min numbers

mods should pin that beauty

but basically any setup that all fits on one plastic belt and one rubber belt can be laid out like that

[restive sparrow]

The polymer is drawn as a lighter blue than the plastic. Smh

[thorn bane]

didnt even connect the water to the diluted fuel
smhing my head

[outer vale]

lol

yeah it's missing the oil and dilution water

[opal locust]

okay, one step at a time

[outer vale]

I'm sure you can figure those out

[opal locust]

HOR refinery, fuel blender, water extractor

That doesn't really help me

It worked for you, great, but I'm still not picturing how it works

[outer vale]

just follow the doodle

[civic bronze]

thats intresting, i watched it do 4 cycles, since it can't output half of item, it outputs 2 and 3 alternately

[thorn bane]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Production_amplifier#Amplified_production_cycles

[dusky dust]

Fuel consumption for drones does similar things, too

The actual fuel required for a route is a float which can be a decimal, but it'll take a slightly varying amount depending on what it's already consumed

[opaque quartz]

yep. the wiki has details about the pattern of how sloops output when using non-whole number multipliers

edit: beaten

[oblique hollow]

makes me wonder if you could.. like... make a recipe with a decimal amount of items

And how the game would treat them

imagine making 0.275 iron ingots. Not per minute. actual 0.275 ingots per cycle

[opal locust]

I think I did it

[glossy raptor]

question about atom power especially ficsonium:
if i want to completely use 2100 uranium convert it to ufr, burn them, convert waste to pfr and i do that with more or less efficient recipes .... Then i end up with ~224 plutonium waste. Is it right, that I am not able to get rid of this waste with ffr because it would need almost 18k SAM. (nothing slooped)

[dusky dust]

Bonus points if getting a whole number per cycle would require a repeating-decimal clock

[opal locust]

from top to bottom, residual rubber, recycled rubber x2, recycled plastic x2

[oblique hollow]

3.3333 seconds per cycle

[civic bronze]

And 0.3333 iron ingots per cycle

[oblique hollow]

no, too neat

[opal locust]

Residual Rubber is merged with the Recycled Rubber and put to a smart splitter, overflow goes out, the rest goes back in to make recycled plastic. the recycled plastic is merged, send to a smart splitter, overflow out, the rest back to the recycled rubber refineries.

did I do it?

[thorn bane]

correct ficsonium rods is crazy expensive

[thorn bane]

looks good
turn it on to see if it actually works

[tropic hawk]

Correct

you cannot do a max UFR set up as well as ensuring its wasteless and using FFRs as the disposal method

[glossy raptor]

solutions then are:
a) sink pfr
b) make less uranium power
c) sloop ficsite ingot production with 20+ sloops (and use aluminum for this -> spent 3k aluminum ingots on it)

[thorn bane]

d) use rocket fuel xd
but ye sadly they are waaay to expensive imo

[tropic hawk]

c) doesn't work as there literally isn't enough resources in the world to support it

[thorn bane]

even if you sloop sam?

[tropic hawk]

yep. I ran through the numbers. there is physically not enough resources in the game (I think its Bauxite, Caterium, SAM, and Oil that limit it)

[glossy raptor]

yeah, currently doing 240GW rocket fuel. compared to nuclear power it seems insanely ez.

[thorn bane]

dayum

[tropic hawk]

RF gets you power on par with UFRs if you are willing to place all the required generators. UFRs you place a lot of production lines, RF you place a lot of gens.

[tropic hawk]

the real purpose of FFRs is to test your logistical accumen even further

or it wasn't meant to be used in full nuclear builds

[glossy raptor]

i think it does ... see picture

[tropic hawk]

did you account for the rest of the resources consumed by the previous two steps?

[glossy raptor]

they don't need that much actually. some silica and pressure cubes iirc

[tropic hawk]

mainly talking about the PW and the UW

[glossy raptor]

but i can create a full calculation if u want

[tropic hawk]

go for it

[glossy raptor]

what does the W stand for?

[tropic hawk]

Waste

[glossy raptor]

ah, waste ig

[tropic hawk]

Uranium and Plutonium Waste

though I last ran the numbers on day 1 of the launch, so my formulas may have been a bit off. So while it may be possible on paper, there is also the problem of getting all the resources to the production with the game remaining intact

[opal locust]

It works great. Now I simply need to create a storage/sink/drone area, and I can expand this setup as I need more Plastic/Rubber?

[tropic hawk]

indeed.

[opal locust]

And since it's only using 75 oil, I can repeat this up to 7 more times.

[glossy raptor]

i mean without slooping its not possible of course

[glossy raptor]

here you are

note that i upped to 45 sloops so that only 6.8k SAM are used.

and its for ~~2400 ~~ 2250 uranium actually xD

[thorn bane]

oh this even is with Plutonium Fuel Unit?
isnt it better without

[thorn bane]

that doesnt include the resources for the oscillators and pasta etc. right?

[glossy raptor]

all the containers on the left side state what is left

i mean 54 oscillators shouldn't be the problem.
not more than 7k aluminum, 48 pressure conversion cubes, 4.3k nitrogen, 29k copper ingots and 240 time crystals xD

the pasta production step is at the bottom of the picture

[glossy raptor]

ah yes, you are right if you want to minimize the PW

[glossy raptor]

so, i updated the production chains

and again: SAM is slooped twice. once the aluminum consumption profits from this too. so only ~3.6k aluminum + 16pressure conv cube

[pastel obsidian]

Holy shit

[tawdry blade]

Man I hate flowcharts.

Make things harder than they already are lol.

[pastel obsidian]

They just make planning for some a little easier, it really depends on how your brain thinks

Helping people understand the scale that they need to build is something a lot of people struggle with

[shadow stone]

Why arent my pipes filling properly at the top bit?

[vapid gorge]

do some overhead shots of the system, preferably during day time

[shadow stone]

okk

[opal locust]

Well I figured out how to handle transporting my plastic/rubber

If I keep it to 2 sets of 4, I can stay under the Mk5 belt limit

all I need to do is expand one side until I hit 4, and if I need more Plastic/Rubber, start building the second side

Overflow goes into the sink, then into storage before being fed into drone ports, the center drone port distributing fuel

[vapid gorge]

is it jsut the top system having issues?

[shadow stone]

yes im trying to stop all the machines let them fill up then connect to power again

[vapid gorge]

ok flatten this section out , remove all the pumps and only have them on the green Xs

why are tehre 3 pipes connecting to the coal gen line if you only have 2 coming here ?

[shadow stone]

wait what

[shadow stone]

since it moves 300 liquid

so 2 will be enough since each machine is producing 120

[vapid gorge]

yeah just feed it with the 2 pipes yo uhave here

[shadow stone]

so what do i do?

[vapid gorge]

two pipes , push the entrance further back so yo uhave a longer section before the manifold, put pumps there

[shadow stone]

since both pipes connect before going to the floor above

is this why its not working since that one pipe isnt moving stuff fast enough

[shadow stone]

is this why

[vapid gorge]

thats why you have 2 from the extractors,

don't merge and split , keep pipes simple flatten out the pipes at the water extractors, put pumps on the green Xs and reflood the system

[shadow stone]

Fixed it i just had all 3 pipes merge in my logisitcs floor

So i made it so its 2 pipes running down the whole thing which have pipeline junctions along them for the pipeline holes

[sonic gull]

I thought I had pipes figured out man.... pipes and verticality just dont mix. Im using a water tower set up to ensure theres enough headlift always but my flow rate is fluctuating anywhere from 0 to 600 on a 400m ouput fuel plant.

[vapid gorge]

so in general, keep pipes as simple as possible. And don't bottom feed manifolds which is essentially what you're doing here.
Coal generators put up with more shit than other systems so best to get into good habits now

[vapid gorge]

headlift doesn't fix verticality issues, water towers are just doing a full gymnastics routine instead of pushign a button and putting a pump down

[shadow stone]

Yeah but i didnt wanna do it on the bottom floor since i had no space

[vapid gorge]

what is that in response to in particular?

[sonic gull]

Im seeing a problem with my refinery BP. Maybe its afix

[vapid gorge]

can't say anything about it w/o images

[sonic gull]

Sorry 1 sec! I appreciate the help. My issue is I am technically bottom feeding manifolds like you just said

[vapid gorge]

no stress, just eating breakfast.

lots of images from different angles and over head

there are ways to bottom feed, but I don't recommend them

[sonic gull]

Here is my design for my refinery BP on the output side. As you can see, it is feeding up into the manifold. I silly oversight by me. It works for input side because the input feeds down but obviously this is not smart for the output side

[vapid gorge]

how many machines in that line?

and is it a 600 flow pipe? with what fluid?

oh right it's an output

that should be fine but you'll probably need to retool things a tiny bit

it's the inputs that will generally cause you trouble

[vapid gorge]

ah shit yeah

[sonic gull]

currently attmpting to get these fuel towers working

[vapid gorge]

what are these pipes in red doing?

[sonic gull]

They do nothing. just part of the BP for those. incase I wanted or needed to feed from the back.

[vapid gorge]

about what % is your power running of expected output?

[sonic gull]

hovering around 3750-4250 and expected output is 5000 from 20 fuel gens

[vapid gorge]

that's not ... great. but not awful

ok so you have a few options here

1. spend a lot of time trying to retool this without any clear methods of trouble shooting it. Is it possible to get vertical manifolds like this working? others have claimed so but a lot of people are full of shit. And at best it's probably not something you can reliably create

2. completely redo the layout of your fuel pipes and generators , probably having to change the clocking of your fuel producers a bit

3. accept a lower efficieny fuel station and take it as a learning experience

[sonic gull]

These smaller towers i made with less output working great at the moment at 100%

.

[vapid gorge]

yeah less points of input

and maybe the trick to vertical manifolds is to keep them extremely short

less machines, less total fluid down pipes are bot hthings that help with keeping things stable

[primal shadow]

When are vertical splitters unlocked in 1.1?

[sonic gull]

I just found a small section of mk1 pipes hidden within a pump....

[vapid gorge]

#satisfactory-experimental

[primal shadow]

Oh thank you sorry

[vapid gorge]

that can happen 🙂

in your big set up?

[sonic gull]

yep lol

[vapid gorge]

see how it goes from there. Like, it's probably possible for it to work, I work on reliability though

[restive sparrow]

Trying to make an organized grid of water extractors is going to turn me completely insane. This bullshit where you can't grid lock an extractor is killing me.

[vapid gorge]

build them on foundations

[sonic gull]

place em on foundations

[restive sparrow]

You can place extractors over foundations in the water to grid them, but any time a blueprint is anywhere near them it says that the water isn't deep enough

[vapid gorge]

yeah you can't use BP foundations for it. Known thing

just zoop the foundations

[restive sparrow]

but then I can't see the damn markings on the foundations cause of the water making it hard to see

[vapid gorge]

build outwards, have 1 foundation poping above the water line

[restive sparrow]

I guess I can just place one and grid them to eachother but I'm trying to find a way to BP the hookups so I don't have as much shit to plumb

[sonic gull]

I think my problem has been solved by that pipe segment and the output fixing on the refinieries

[vapid gorge]

black line is a zooped line of foundations under water, red is a series of water extractors, build the first red water extractors on the zooped line, then CTRL snap the next extractors onto those, then use BP foundations to fill it how you like

[opal locust]

Well my modular design does work. I used those construction fences to mark the buildable area so I don't forget

[restive sparrow]

Thanks, mate.

Planning on 480/m per pipe or should I man up and go 600? ><

[vapid gorge]

depends what you're doing and how you set up your next step

water pipes tend to be a lot more stable at 600 than secondary steps after

if you don't want to have to be as strict with your pipes , plan for smaller manifolds 🙂

[restive sparrow]

Setting up for an oil - > plastic+rubber+coke setup

[vapid gorge]

how much effort do you want to put in to keeping pipes flowing easily?

happy with a lot of effort?
or minimal?

[restive sparrow]

I don't mind putting extra effort in to do it right. I much prefer to understand how to do it right and just do it that way.

I can certainly be high effort if it gets results.

[vapid gorge]

well it's more that you have more leeway if you plan for smaller production groups

because mk2 pipes limit you to processing groups of 600 fluid pm right?

[restive sparrow]

Oh yeah I suppose you can mix and match more easily if you have some headroom.

Good thinking

[vapid gorge]

it also gives you more flexibility in layout in design

for example I often run 600 pipes but I put in a lot of planning and effort to make sure it has a solid layout

on top of that , I essentially exclusively bottom feed my machiens. Which I don't recommend

[restive sparrow]

This is the plan.

[vapid gorge]

because I have to design the whole system to accommodate this

[vapid gorge]

seems reasonable 🙂 I'd break this down into 2 main systems. The one making the rubber with the final output and the one making the plastic as the final

[restive sparrow]

Your big accomodation you have to make to make bottom feeding work out is the looping, right?

[vapid gorge]

and sending a pipe directly from point A to B, no merges or splits anywhere, very flat manifolds, often a pump right before the start of the manifold

[vapid gorge]

I helped break down how to make something like this for another person last night if you wanted a squeeze #math-and-meta message

[restive sparrow]

I was planning on basically making a seperate block for each of those production types with big buses between them.

Big ole building of residual rubber, big ole building of recycled plastic etc etc

[vapid gorge]

sounds doable. Not the simplest but doable

for example this was the start of one step with 50 residual rubber being fed in

doubles to 100 plastic, then 200 rubber ect ect

[restive sparrow]

Crap. Gotta run for dinner but I'll be reading!

[vapid gorge]

yeah no stress , bout to shower myself 🙂

[bleak wagon]

Does anyone know of some compact load balancing blueprints I could download? I would make them myself but Im a little dumb and dont know how to make them that compact

[pastel obsidian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgxknxp3-Go&t=4s

This is a good guide on how to make things compact

[bleak wagon]

ty will definitely be taking a look

[vapid gorge]

is there a reason manifolds don't work for you?

[bleak wagon]

I cant fit everything on one belt right now and want both to have the same amount of items

[vapid gorge]

load balancers don't let you fit more on belts :\

and manifolds self balance

so once one section fills up it overflows to the next

for example this is an evenly fed system

[bleak wagon]

Yeah ik how manifolds work, Im also failing to explain what I was trying to do

[pastel obsidian]

its good to make a build your own

[vapid gorge]

try 🙂

cause while both work, load balancing is a ton more work and effectively only an aesthetic

[delicate yew]

A coal gen at 100% takes in 15 coal/min and outputs 75MW
If I put that up to 200% it would take in 30 coal/min and output 125MW correct?

Also requiring double the water input as well?

[vapid gorge]

150mw

and yes double hte water

[delicate yew]

thank you i mathed wrong

[bleak wagon]

ignore this, Idk what I was even trying to say here now.

I have 3 belts Im trying to make into 4 even belts, Im pretty sure I figured out how to do it though, I dont think a manifold would work very well here because Im taking these to different parts of my factory

[vapid gorge]

split each of the 3 belts into 4, merge one of each

but look into clocking and grouping your machines

for example you could have probably grouped the machines putting things into 3 belts into 4 fro mteh start

clocking and selective grouping is probably your most powerful logistic and layout tool

[glossy raptor]

and manifold in this case would be: smart split as much as you need for the first part of your factory. then send the remaining with the other belts to the next part, smart split again. if you can merge belts, merge.

[vapid gorge]

yeah smart splitters can also do the same job. messier imo though

depends on your whole layout

[bleak wagon]

I dont have smart splitters unlocked in this save yet or I wouldve made use of those

[vapid gorge]

they give you a lot of options, but yeah clocking and selective grouping. planning a processing step with producers and consumers in one go instead of each step individually.

it'll save you a lot of pain in the long run

[glossy raptor]

yeah. when i hide my splitting and belt work i just dumb smart splitters lol. if its visible though i try to group/underclock and then the belts have the right amounts on them already xD

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, Im returning to the game after not playing for like 8 months, definitely need to try to do a little more planning on my later projects in this save

[vapid gorge]

just depends what you want out of the game 🙂

If I'm just going up the tiers and unlocking stuff I just smoosh parts from production lines together and not worry about efficiency. It's not like I'll keep those factories for long after I unlock everything

[bleak wagon]

I prefer trying to make stuff efficient as I go and just make more of stuff than I should need in the save and just send it where it needs to be when I need it

[vapid gorge]

that's also fair 😉

[bleak wagon]

probably not the best way of doing stuff but I make it work and its always fun having big factories for stuff

[vapid gorge]

jsut consider clocking and planning and you'll have an easier time about it

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I havent started doing much planning yet since Im still working on basic stuff thats only got one or two levels of building if that makes sense

[opal locust]

So, I've never messed around with resource well pressurizers, and I wanted to mess around with them to learn how they work in prep for the future.

I'm still a ways off from Phase 5, but I know one of the earliest things to automate is diamonds.

[restive sparrow]

For trying to get 600m3/min out of a pure oil node, I'm thinking of splitting it up into 2 arms of 300m3/min. Should I be doing that as close to the extractor as possible to get headroom into the pipes' capacity as quickly as I can?

[amber edge]

no spilt up as late as want, unless you want two mk1 pipes going through factory for looks

as long you flood the pipes first

[restive sparrow]

I'm just worried about sloshing and bullshit that can make it nearly impossible to use 600 reliably

[amber edge]

just flood the pipes

[restive sparrow]

Built the refinery building inputs without plumbing the outputs so I think that effectively has flooded the pipes

[amber edge]

give it headlift ofc, ignore that guy, make water tower, they look cool for factories

[restive sparrow]

cause all of that oil is pushing against the brick wall of all machines idling

[amber edge]

flooding the pipes just means make sure all parts of pipe connection is filled to max then everything should be fine, I usually turn off production some machines and let it slowly flood up with some machines working then as its flooded i turn on those few machines, or you can choose to flood it all right away

sloshing is when theres headlift issues, so just water tower it or make headlift over all pipes

for example i have this rig running fine

it eats 600 crude oil a min

[vapid gorge]

raw oil tends to be very lenient with 600 pipes

often not even needing a loop

[opaque quartz]

They unlock in phase 4. You need to use them to extract nitrogen for fused modular frames at a minimum. Water and oil wells are also available but essentially optional

[opaque quartz]

Diamonds are easy. Just requires a lot of coal

[opal locust]

aren't the oil based alternates more cost efficient?

[vapid gorge]

depends on what you value more, oil or coal?

[opaque quartz]

I like oil diamonds personally. But requires particle accelerators instead of converters

[vapid gorge]

Personally I go for pink diamonds.

yeah, I go for the one converter recipe because fuck PAs

[fallow siren]

theres no diamond recipe that involves converter afaik

[fallow siren]

ah

[vapid gorge]

the only one

[opaque quartz]

Pink diamonds are great too. There’s a spot in dune desert with lots of coal and quartz close together

[vapid gorge]

all the others are PAs

[opaque quartz]

I was mixing up default and pink recipe in my head

First playthrough I did a power shard/ionized fuel factory in dune desert using the pink diamond recipe as the backbone

[vapid gorge]

it's a great recipe. Anything that cuts out pas

the only thing that kinda comes close are turbo diamonds just because they output so much more per machine

[opal locust]

What's wrong with PAs? Is it the amount of power they use?

[pastel obsidian]

For me it's the size of them and how they look

[opaque quartz]

Mainly their huge footprint, and variable power draw

If you fully OC and sloop a particle accelerator it will use up to 20 GW

[vapid gorge]

just how big and ugly they are when you need abunch of them

[opal locust]

I'm still having power issues with my diluted fuel plant

I sat there for hours letting pipes refill, and they're just not getting enough oil

[vapid gorge]

so the oil step isn't working?

[opal locust]

Yeah

[vapid gorge]

oof yeah and if that's not working you don't know if there's issues further along the line

[opal locust]

this is the refinery and pipe connecting it at the end of the line

[amber edge]

make sure you have enough input of oil first, turn off all refinery and let pipes flood and then turn refineries on one by one to fill them all up to brim

[vapid gorge]

you could send some over shot images of your oil inputs ?

[amber edge]

you dont need to loop it

make single pipe from pump to refineries, make sure you got headlift between them

[vapid gorge]

can you go higher up? it looks like you're doing a weird loop between 4 sections of refineries

[amber edge]

looks like too much throughput for single mk2 pipe, r u sure its 600pm consumption for that pipe

[opal locust]

20 Refineries at 100% making HOR

[vapid gorge]

it kinda looks like you have some elevation changes on one point of the loop?

[opal locust]

30 oil/minute * 20 is 600

[rotund ingot]

So Im kinda stupid, Im making HMF and noticed a shortage, I've traced it back to this split, my "bay" of pipes is outputting 2 even belts. Is there a good way to make this split easily? maybe a smart splitter with the 360 path being overflow?

[amber edge]

what mk belt do you have

mk4 or mk5?

[rotund ingot]

5

[vapid gorge]

powered pump on the Xs, flood the system

[opal locust]

do I remove the loop part?

[vapid gorge]

have one group of machines clocked to make 600 and one to make 360

[amber edge]

OR put water tower and chill with no pumps needed

[opal locust]

this is with fluid buffers for head lift

[amber edge]

or oil tower in this case

[vapid gorge]

pumps are for dirctionality for a branched manifold with this case

a water tower will do nothing

[opal locust]

do I remove the fluid buffers too?

[amber edge]

whats wrong with valve for that

[vapid gorge]

yes remove all buffers

[vapid gorge]

valves don't stop back flow

they stop individual units of fluid from crossing backwards

which sounds like a small detail but is very important

[amber edge]

huh

[opal locust]

are Mk1 pumps enough or should I use Mk2 to be safe?

[rotund ingot]

is that the easiest? the pipes are split evenly cause each line takes an input of 720 steel. Im sure I could split it up, but Im not 100% sure how I'd go about it

[vapid gorge]

just use mk2s

[amber edge]

yeah thats one way to do it

or you could max one belt and manifold it then overfills into other belt

[vapid gorge]

as in you have 2x 480s?

then sure you could set an over flow on your 360 to your other 480 and it'll eventually balance out

if you've already got it like that that's probably simplest

[rotund ingot]

alright, Im not on 1.1, but should it be going into a prio merger at some point? or is a standard merger fine?

[vapid gorge]

you really never need priority mergers for anything in the game

and this is a smart splitter situation

[rotund ingot]

perfect, thank you

[opal locust]

Okay, loop removed, buffers removed, pumps installed

[amber edge]

one thing i could see good use out of it is self sustained recycling, such as prioritized on recycled items then feed a steady supply on low priority

[vapid gorge]

flood and go.

[amber edge]

such as silica recycling with alumium, or tanks/canister recycling

[vapid gorge]

silica recycling?

I mean, you know exactly how much silica you need to add if you're getting some from the solution recipe. Just add exactly that much silica to the system

[amber edge]

almina solution/aluminum ingot

yeah you could math it or just priority merge and call it day

[vapid gorge]

'make random amount of silica instead of doing 1 math equation.' Maybe you have enough or not! it's a surprise!

I feel at that point of lazyness you don't really care about it running at 100% anyway

[amber edge]

useful for huge factory with many lines needed to feed, sure if you want to call it that

instead of load balancing and hope it doesnt clog up

[vapid gorge]

who said anything about laod balancing? which isn't a solution for it.

if you' need a total of 900 silica for your ingots and your solution is producing 600, find the difference (300) and send that along

that's literally it.
there's no variable production systems in the game

[amber edge]

it just giving you more options to do ways

what else priority merge have good usage

[opal locust]

I think another problem I was having was not letting all of the pipes fill with their liquids

[vapid gorge]

that usually helps yes. But you might also have flow issues further along. But first it's good to get the oil flooded properly

[amber edge]

well for aluminum i was just making example, im more of thinking about tanks recycling with prioritized for recycled tanks so it will not run out instead of hand chunking it

[vapid gorge]

well with the aluminium you could still do your thing with silica w/o a priority merger.
have one set of machines work off just the silica from the solution, then another section that is fed by 'Random Silica Belt of Doom'. Doesn't care of it overflows or not

[amber edge]

what other uses would you do with priority merger

[vapid gorge]

as for cannisters, where would you need this? just dump a bunch into a system and let it fly

[amber edge]

im just trying to think uses for it

like when i plan to expand factories and pulls tanks from my nitrogen plant then it just runs out suddenly then i had to run there and hand chunk more, so priority merger takes care of that

[vapid gorge]

well either you're using a recipe where the tanks themselves are consumed, so you should just have a dedicated process since you need exactly X tanks pm

or it's a package unpackage situation that is a closed loop and you jsut put in a bunch of cannisters into a buffer

no need to belt it across the factory

[amber edge]

no like i have made train station thats packing all nitrogen from that spot then just make train stations anywhere when i needed nitrogen and send it over

[vapid gorge]

even if you do do a belt all the way across and a prirority merger, it's a very temporary need. after a couple minutes it'll jsut be forever frozen

[vapid gorge]

you don't have that train also carrying the empties back :\

[amber edge]

i do

but as i put more train stations

they will fill up and eat space for tnaks

tanks will eventually run out when i use up enough of them by spreading it thin over stations

[vapid gorge]

not unless you're also packing more nitrogen

[amber edge]

no like im not consuming all nitrogen but storages in train stations will hold tanks

[vapid gorge]

just start off with a bunch of empty cannisters with a nice buffer for ALL the nitrogen, and then never think about it again

[amber edge]

so it will spread thin

[vapid gorge]

unless you're packign more nitrogen your buffer will be fine

because only X pm will flow out, and then X empties pm will flow in

[amber edge]

i started off with like 6 industrial storage buffer of tanks, its down to 1 now lol

because of train stations holds tank in themselves

so as i make more stations, tanks get spread thin more

[vapid gorge]

sure because it'll be spread out.
yeah manifolds need to fill up. So you need enough to fill up all the buffers.

[amber edge]

thats what im trying to tell you

[vapid gorge]

it's still just a one off production where you make a ton of spare empties and shut it off

[amber edge]

it will eventually run out by spreading thin so i can put priority merger with production line of tank

[vapid gorge]

otherwise your priority merger will just send a ton of tanks to the sink

[amber edge]

just pause it, dont sink it

it eats up lot of aluminum

[vapid gorge]

sure but are you going to rely on a stuttering aluminium system that only produces when no tanks are being made?

[amber edge]

its like buffer for buffer, a contingency

[vapid gorge]

basically introducing a variable production in a variableless world

you've essentially dedicated that amount of aluminium ingots to always be ready to be made into tanks, whether you're sinking it or not

because otherwise any other production you try to use it for will be unstable

[amber edge]

well I tend to make huge producing factories with overfill, i dont play by 100%, we have different playstyles lol

[vapid gorge]

then why do you need a priority merger at all? it's to fill up stuff as needed and change production lines.

anyway gl

[amber edge]

good luck for having fun? yeah sure thank you

[radiant lance]

is the wiki correct here? checking the history, it seems this line was added on the 25th. if this line is correct, would this mean that valves are able to be precise for flow limiting now?

[opal locust]

Why is Fused Modular Frame so simple? It's just Heavy Modular Frame + Aluminum and Nitrogen.

[vapid gorge]

except the real limiter on the pipe is the consumption of the machines. the valve is just another point of failure

plus pipes work on average flow, if you set a valve to what you need down a path and the flow ever drops, it'll never catch up

[radiant lance]

if it's true, it does make recycling the water byproduct from aluminium far easier, even if it's not as ideal as other options

if I never have to build a VIP junction ever again it'll be too soon

[vapid gorge]

it's not a reliable option for that either though.

never mix them in the first place. most reliable option

VIPs are more reliable than simple direct feeding. And you can always BP them

[radiant lance]

not mixing is def #1 with the VIPs at #2, but imo they're both not exactly great options, even with blueprinting the VIP

[vapid gorge]

why? they are unbreakable and just need clocking . And more reliable

well not mixing is unbreakable. VIPs are still a bit fiddly

[radiant lance]

yeah I don't trust VIPs much at all since they're such a black box

[vapid gorge]

and using a pump or valve to direct feed is a coin flip

[radiant lance]

not mixing is unbreakable but something deep in my brain doesn't like it much

[vapid gorge]

pretend there's a pipe between the red and blue line in the image 😛

in fact you could make a fake pipe that's not really connected

[radiant lance]

I'm just totally unsure if the highlighted line in the image I sent is correct that valves do actually limit based on what number you set now

[vapid gorge]

no idea. but again you wouldn't want it

set it to 600 in those situation

you want the waste fluid to have as big an opening as possible. And in that case use a powered pump. More reliable and you won't get any back flow unless the output side is comletely flooded

in terms of reliability it goes

1. unmixed
2. vip
3. pump direct feed
4. valve direct feed

[radiant lance]

every time I think about pipes I wish we had a system like factorio space age's pipes

[vapid gorge]

if you keep them simple they are very easy.

Point A to Point B, keep manifolds on the same elevation, don't branch them. Loop and flood

even simpler if you don't run them at 600

they tolerate more bullshit

[radiant lance]

yea, I don't think I've really had pipe trouble before, the main thing is that I always worry about the possibility of something fucking them up without me being able to know what it is

or even know that they are hypothetically fucking up before a total shutdown

[vapid gorge]

thats where the simplicity comes int.
not only does it give pipes fewer options to fuck up, they are also much easier to trouble shoot

[radiant lance]

i remember back in 1.0 I made a BP for aluminium that would absolutely be considered disastrously unreliable and yet somehow it never backed up

[pastel obsidian]

Same here mine still works with the power of magic

[radiant lance]

I was mixing back in with a valve (maybe even two) and had a buffer in the mix. exclusively made it because of aesthetics but it just Worked

[vapid gorge]

the main issue about systems that are unreliable is that it's difficult to impossible to replicate often times.

maybe a junction is spun exactly right, and you start the fluid system in the right way that if you changed that in any way it instantly breaks

[radiant lance]

yeah that's why I hate pipes in general, they're such a black box

I wish we had a debug mode to see exactly wtf is going on in them

[vapid gorge]

think of it like this.

you can throw a deck of cards at a table and sometimes you'll get a royal flush in front of you

[pastel obsidian]

What are you on about

[radiant lance]

hey now let's not be rude, I understand what they mean

[pastel obsidian]

It's like saying let's not use trains because they can crash

[radiant lance]

if valve precision has updated like the wiki claims, I would agree that it makes valves actually usable for this and that we shouldn't discount them out of hand

but if they haven't they're still F tier and do almost nothing to help aluminium refining

[vapid gorge]

for aluminium waste? you're ignoring the average flow issue

[radiant lance]

tbh I don't particularly see the problem with the average flow issue; if any system is dependant on, say, 150/min of a fluid/item and you're providing exactly 150/min, then any momentary drop that doesn't get compensated for would cause a loss in productivity

which would apply to anything that maxes out belt speed or if a miner somehow provides 1 less item than it should in a minute

[vapid gorge]

sure but the you have a system stutter

and if it's alum waste it can back up to block the whole thing

[radiant lance]

causing a deadlock is a very fair point

[vapid gorge]

and if it's not a waste system, you want your system totally flooded, as sa partially flooded system only alows a fraction of the flow limit set

[radiant lance]

another fair point 😔

CSS pls priority pipeline junctions

I live in fear of the black magic of a VIP junction

[vapid gorge]

essentially lets say you have a feed pipe with 400 flow down the line a number of refineries, if you flood the whole system, and you should, you'll get that 400 limiter flow from the valve sure, but in the end it's the refineries that set that 400 limit too right?

[white bloom]

even as someone who has wished for priority mergers for a long time, I find it strange they added them before priority pipeline junctions, considering the latter have far more use cases

[vapid gorge]

because you don't need need them in any way?

[white bloom]

I mean, surely it's more work to implement, but the demand is far greater

[white bloom]

you don't need anything in this game. a lot of the stuff is for convenience only.

[radiant lance]

def don't need them if you know how pipes work, but I think the difficulty for the larger community to figure out how pipes function is one of the biggest failures in this game's tutorialisation and UI

[vapid gorge]

most of the stuff you need in the game. vehicles excepted. Those are just fancy belts

[radiant lance]

half of the subreddit still thinks that water towers are what you should do with every fluid pipe no matter what

[vapid gorge]

don't make me tap the sign again

tap tap

priority mergers were essentially demanded because other games have burst production and variable production lines

which just isn't a thing in satisfactory

[radiant lance]

having prio mergers does make me wish for more places to use them

[vapid gorge]

play factorio

[opal locust]

So, for Fused Modular Frames, is it best to bring the HMFs and Aluminum to the Nitrogen, or bring the Nitrogen and Aluminum to the HMFs?

[vapid gorge]

apparently they have lots of uses there

[radiant lance]

burned out 😔 I'll continue it eventually

[vapid gorge]

which honestly is wehre a lot of this is coming from it looks like

I honestly never cared about factorio, tried it a bit, not for me. But years of fan boys bitching about satisfcatory boiling down to 'this game isn't factorio and I'm mad' has really jaded me to them

especially pre 1.0. So much bitching boiled down to 'I'm mad this isn't factorio'

[pastel obsidian]

Factorio has developed so much over the years with updates

[radiant lance]

the only solid byproduct I can think of (that gets fed back in) is aluminium's silica, which is just ignored by people using pure/sinking it - other than that prio mergers kinda struggle to fill a niche (though they're very useful when they are useful)

[vapid gorge]

well other options with that.

1. use a recipe that doesn't produce it

2. use 2 ingot recipes, one that uses the silica and process the rest of the scrap with the pure

3. just sink it

4. probably some others not off the top of my head

[pastel obsidian]

I think aluminum was meant to be a more complex production where you bring the lessons of using fluids and solids together.

[vapid gorge]

5. design a factory that uses the silica for something else like CBs

[radiant lance]

yeah, we've got lots of options for dealing with the silica, I'm not saying prio mergers are that useful for it

it's just nice. a bit of qol to be able to force the byproduct line to be clear if we feed it back in

[vapid gorge]

like a person before was talking about using it to add more empty tanks to a system? but... just make 100,000 tanks and then turn those ingots into a stable production line instead of locking it away forever.

and it's not like you culdn't make a priority merger vanilla no mods before

[crimson moat]

Without precision on limits, valves were still useful for enforcing flow direction. With accurate flow limits they're more useful

[radiant lance]

do you know if they have actually got accurate flow limits now?

[crimson moat]

haven't tested that function

@oblique hollow ?

wiki is inconsistent on this, but the most recent change points to arbitrary limits working (without a citation)

[radiant lance]

citation very much needed

[crimson moat]

The flow rate display isn't perfectly accurate

[radiant lance]

good point

[crimson moat]

e.g. 600 pipes read 603

sec

I'm not exactly sure how it chose how to round up or down before, but wiki claims that a value of 120 previously limited to 118.1, which is 50x (600/254)

I think anything set below 120.47 resulted in a round down to 118.1

maybe try hook a 120/min packager onto a line with 600 input, 120 valve, and see if it starves at 120

[radiant lance]

will do

..and TIL you can drag water out of a water extractor into your bin to destroy it

[oblique hollow]

Aluminum's trouble stems from system control theory and instability of systems

In a merged byproduct line, the equilibrium is not to run efficiently, but to clog up with water

Thats the main reason why, even mathed right, some systems tend to clog.

Any interruption can tip the system

[radiant lance]

so now I have to blame the laws of entropy for my hypothetical aluminium bottleneck? :(

[oblique hollow]

It takes everything running 100% right for aluminum to not clog

So it is actually on the edge of stability

Unless of course you do it differently

[crimson moat]

My system is built to asymptotically approach 100% efficiency (reaches 99.9 very quickly) and any disturbance causes the output to drop and recover gracefully (with temporarily reduced output)

you cannot do that without choosing which water to consume first though, so you need seperated water lines or a perfect priority system (which seems to be wonky at best in the current game)

[fallow siren]

far easier to just separate pipe system between fresh and waste

[oblique hollow]

i guess you did the split water cycle then. yeah, that one can self regulate

[tropic hawk]

Could have sworn there was less sloops than that...

[crimson moat]

there's over a hundred

they are very well hidden though

if i was playing without SCIM i don't think i'd have found more than 30

[thorn bane]

the real strat is to have a setup that can handle it running at 110% without clogging

[crimson moat]

That's just running at 91% efficiency

you can do the same thing but have it go at 99.999999%

You can also do some funny setups to have a perfectly stable 100.0% but there is realistically not a difference between 99.9999999% and 100.0%

[oblique hollow]

90.909% of input technically, but 91% is acceptable

[crimson moat]

hey i was closer than 90 😄

[radiant lance]

testing this setup right now, water extractor doing 300/min, valve at 120/min, packager doing 120/min
water inside the packager doesn't seem to be changing from its starting lowest-highest range at all, and the pipe feeding the packager is showing a flat 120/min flow with absolutely 0 changes happening to the water level inside it

[oblique hollow]

Thats good

[thorn bane]

single pipe segments dont slosh
it only gets funky with multiple sections/junctions

[radiant lance]

water extractor needs to shut down when it caps out obv, but I'm tentatively hopeful

[crimson moat]

is valve test, not slosh test

[radiant lance]

not about slosh, I'm testing the wiki's claim that valves are more precise now

[thorn bane]

ah sorry

[crimson moat]

and if so, i wonder when it was changed lol

there hasn't been a patch to it since 1.0 surely?

[radiant lance]

dwdw

[oblique hollow]

Pipes only fill as much as they need to flow at a certain rate

Shadow fixes

[radiant lance]

shadow fix: reworking the most broken buildable in the game

still 0 changes in the numbers in the system

[crimson moat]

it would drain by 1.6m3 per minute if it behaved as it alledgedly used to

[radiant lance]

I redid the math just to make sure, 2.3622 * 51 = 120.4722, so it should increase slightly over time if I remember how it rounds and if it's still imprecise

I'll see if I can't find a number that would round down as well to check for draining

[crimson moat]

on the wiki example, it was a round down breaking a system

said you needed to set to >= ~ 120.5 (120.4722) to provide 120

[silent shoal]

Is there anyone here who knows drones well and can help me?

[crimson moat]

what's the issue

[radiant lance]

yeah, wiki's aluminium example's behaviour isn't showing up at all here, though i'll keep testing

if valves are fixed now I just need to hope and pray that they secretly fixed hoverpacks causing machine shutdowns too

2.3622 * 25 = 59.055, so doing this test at 60/m should drain if there's still imprecision

sure thing, throughput monitor, I believe you!

[vapid gorge]

What do you need?

[frosty owl]

The peak of precision

[radiant lance]

got some drainage with 60/m water extractor, 60/m valve, 60/m packager, only once so far

[thorn bane]

no i mean actual 110%
thats how this system works, by splitting it in 2 you have the ability to regulate how much water is made
if theres low water in the system then most goes in the "overflow" direction so the recycled refineries run at 90%
if theres too much water in the system then it all goes in the "any" direction so the recycled refineries run at 110%
or how every many you overbuild
thats the key part, you have to overbuild those to be able to handle 110%, so no underclocking etc. the system will balance itself
so by balancing how much is made in recycled vs fresh refineries it determines how much extra water is created in the system
with recycled at 90% it creates water since the fresh refineries are working more
with 110% it deleted water since the fresh refineries are working less, since most bauxite goes to the recycled refineries first

its the thing mcgalleon mentioned
too much water in the system -> recycled runs at 110% to delete water
too little water in the system -> recycled runs at 90% to create water

[radiant lance]

perhaps I'll steal this design..

[silent shoal]

I created a post. I would appreciate it if you could take a look.❤️
https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/1359074107013992518

[radiant lance]

it's been 19 minutes, no additional drainage yet

[white bloom]

nice concept. a cool application of adaptive production systems.

[radiant lance]

it seems to be a little unstable but I didn't flood the system to start and its range has been between 6-9 this entire time - if it was draining from the valve only letting in 59.055 it wouldn't be lasting 20 minutes

water extractor's also running at 100% with no water staying inside it, so the pipes behind the valve haven't seemed to clog up from any imprecision

okay it's been 30 minutes of this running with zero changes, I think I can say with relative confidence that they fixed valve flow limiting being imprecise

[frosty owl]

Do a 24-hours test!

[radiant lance]

coffee stain would be paying for eyedrops I'd need to stare at that for 24 hours i think lmao

i'm super sus that there could possibly be some drainage but I think it's just placebo, and if there is it's most certainly not by 0.9m3/min

[frosty owl]

You have to set up a system that fails completely, rather than just slowing down/chocking. So you can just leave it running and come back to check wether it still runs or not

[thorn bane]

is there a way to speed up satisfactory for tests like this?

[frosty owl]

I think mods can do that, yes

[radiant lance]

good idea. I'm not very good at debugging because I go "I should manually watch this constantly for 30 minutes" instead of setting it up so it deadlocks if it fails

[frosty owl]

Ahahah
Manual observation only gets you so far 😅 (tens of minutes)

[frosty owl]

Dunno if the game simulation keeps up reliably when "forced" like that though...

[vapid gorge]

You can just come back to it after a day and see if it’s backed up

[radiant lance]

in a test world with a manually fed container of canisters rn 😔

[pastel obsidian]

you should just set up a recycled aluminum setup with and without a valve and compare, hook it up to a switch and separate ISK and see if there is a difference

[proud escarp]

Hey every, did anyone do a PC in Satisfactory yet? I mean, I'm fairly certain splitter/merger logic is Turing complete, but the only thing I found about it was some post on Reddit a lot of years ago where the guy posting it seemed to think powered buildings are necessary for a NOT gate.

[thorn bane]

https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/1278343388814639184

i wonder if you could make 1 = iron ore 0 = limestone and use converters to turn iron into limestone and limestone into iron xD

[proud escarp]

thx

[tawdry blade]

Once you know it isn't 100% there is no turning back.
I see the pipes. They mock me. I have failed my lineage of pioneers.

[crimson moat]

I came up with a fun way to get 100.0%

sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap >
sloppy alumina > electrode scrap > wet concrete (add 19.4 limestone)

Input 200 water, output 16.15 water. Produces 1200 scrap @ 100.0% efficiency, lockproof

i call it the alumina centipede

[wind spade]

why not input 183.85 water? 🤔

no byproduct, no problem

[crimson moat]

183.85 water would starve it while only consuming 562 bauxite.

[wind spade]

it wouldn't, since the 16.15 extra byproduct is reused

[crimson moat]

It's not reused

the point is to multiply the water byproduct down as many times as possible and then sink it

[wind spade]

you're outputting 16.15 water in your message above, if you put it back into the input, you can reduce your input by 16.15

[crimson moat]

yes, you can process 600 baux with 180 water instead of 196.155

in the most water-efficient config you do

but they are e.g. 99.999% efficient at consuming bauxite, not 100.0%. They warm up infinitely without ever being exactly 100.0%

and this config which sinks a tiny bit of water at the end is 100.00%

[wind spade]

that's not true

[crimson moat]

It is true

[vapid gorge]

is this in regards to keeping waste and fresh water split/

[wind spade]

they easily warm up to 100%

[outer vale]

ah are we back to the calculus/recursion stuff again

[wind spade]

because machines have warmup time

[crimson moat]

They warm up to show 100%, but it's a rounding error on the UI. It's not actually 100.0%.

[vapid gorge]

the reason why you're wrong is because machines have spin up time

[crimson moat]

It's e.g. 99.9%, then 99.99%, later 99.9999%

[vapid gorge]

this is ignoring the efficiency calculator

[crimson moat]

but not actually 100%. They take infinite time to reach 100%.

[vapid gorge]

you can see this by the miners never backing up

[wind spade]

they would take infinite time if they would use things at constant rate instead of working in cycles

[crimson moat]

They take infinite cycles to provide as much water as they consume

without infinite cycles, they always fall very slightly short.

[wind spade]

not true

[vapid gorge]

the arguments you give remiind me very much of flat earths and anti vaxxers

[crimson moat]

It is true

you can't just say "not true" and change the math

[wind spade]

let me write the example

[thorn bane]

so is a long belt (for example 10 items long)
stuff goes in but not out until its traveled along the belt
as you look at it longer its like 100/110=90%
after that 1000/1010=99%
theres nothing strange about that its just how items per minute averages work

[crimson moat]

no, different math

[vapid gorge]

they've gone on this rant before, they couldn't be convinced by several eleoquent people. Don't bother

unless have literally nothing else to spend these precious few minutes of life on

something like... enjoying the evening sky

[wind spade]

it's 2pm

[vapid gorge]

look at the clouds then 😛

[opaque quartz]

I found it easier to bring nitrogen (via drone) and aluminum (via train) to my existing HMF factory, but I had planned it that way from the start

[thorn bane]

look at a system like this
https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/1359073362281894019
once it has some water it will use 100% of bauxite
the water may go from 0->50%->90%->110%->95%
but after its 50% it is already 100% bauxite efficient
as in all the bauxite coming in is consumed

[outer vale]

this is at least the third time lol

[vapid gorge]

orly? xD

[wind spade]

example:
you have a recipe that needs 100 water and outputs 80 per cycle. For simplicity, let's say recipe time is 60s, so per minute rates are also per cycle rates, so we don't have to convert.

you have a water extractor set to make 20 water/min. The water extractor will run for 5 minutes, filling up the machine to 100. Then the machine will run for one minute. After one minute, the machine is filled with 20 water from the extractor, and also produced 80 water, having 100 in the system for next run. If we take into account time it takes for the water to loop back to the machine, it will pause for a few seconds, but during those few seconds, extra water is inputted from the extractor, so there's more than 100 water available at the beginning of new cycle.

Takes just two cycles and the machine runs at 100% efficiency

[wind spade]

I have some time to kill before I leave to get my lunch and park my car elsewhere 🤷

[vapid gorge]

I mean if you enjoy this xD

[crimson moat]

This works for the refinery with fresh water input, but not for the waste loop

[wind spade]

the "machine with a recipe" can be replaced with "a set of machines with multiple recipes" without changing anything

any "black box" that has input of X and output of Y will do

it doesn't change any math around it

[thorn bane]

yes if you prefill it like you said
this step "The water extractor will run for 5 minutes,"
if you cold start it then it comes from 0 and converges to 100%

[crimson moat]

Say for example you have 70 waste water and 30 fresh feeding the machine consuming 100.

It works steady-state, if it was already running at 100%.

But what for example if you start with 30 fresh and 21 waste? It will idle for a while until it gets another 49 fresh, then run again, then idle for less time, then run again, then idle for less time, then run again. Uptime starts at 51%, quickly hits 90%, 99%, but it asymptotically approaches 100% and takes infinite time to hit it.

[wind spade]

if you cold start it then it comes from 0 and converges to 100%
if you cold start, the machine doesn't run for 5 minutes, because it needs 100 and only gets 20 every minute
the "prefill" happens on its own

[thorn bane]

if you use a bad setup yes
if you use a good setup it will still flow to the overbuild fresh water recyclers filling up the system while still using 100% of the bauxite

[wind spade]

and the idling means that more of fresh water is inputted into the system, which fills the machine and makes it run at 100%

[crimson moat]

Enough to make it asymptotically approach 100% uptime, but never hit 100%

[wind spade]

again, not true, because machines have spin-up time

[vapid gorge]

I don't think they actually understand spint up time

[wind spade]

if a machine is stopped and has enough resources to start, it takes a few seconds to actually start

(though it would work even without the spin up time)

even ignoring the spin up time, the mistake you're making is that you're just calculating the per minute values, if you assume that a machine perfectly eats X/min and outputs Y/min (which scales based on the input, so if you're inputting X/2 per min, you get Y/2 per min output), then yes, your hypothesis works. But since machines work on cycles and actually need to be full to run one cycle, it's no longer the case

[thorn bane]

would the time between cycles still converge to 0?

[wind spade]

No, because any wait also means more input

[thorn bane]

oh right cause the water output is in chunks not continuous

[wind spade]

I may make a simulation for this just to show it better visually xD

[teal monolith]

strawman

[latent anchor]

@wind spade is right by the way, if you have a refinery that needs 100 per minute, produces 70 which is fed back in, and receives 30 freshwater, the refinery will turn off when it is too low on contents, allowing the 30 to back up and create a buffer for the 70 to stabilize

If it needs to shut down multiple times, it will. The important thing is that the shutdowns are done after a finite amount of time

[outer vale]

this is what happens when you apply continuous reasoning to a discrete system

[latent anchor]

Indeed

There is no 2.6 children here

[vapid gorge]

no this has nothing to do with refuting a different argument.
I'm talking about the repetitive nonsense a person spouts

[thorn bane]

why the fuck are you insulting a person asking for help, trying to understand a complicated concept without getting it on the first try
what is wrong with you

[wind spade]

who is this aimed at?

[thorn bane]

"I'm talking about the repetitive nonsense a person spouts"

[wind spade]

well they aren't exactly asking for help, they are claiming they are right without considering anyone else's perspective/proof. And very much multiple times

[vapid gorge]

yes, because I've tried talking to them and it's absolutely pointless. Its apparently the 3rd time they've gone on about this, I've only seen it twice, and no matter what anyone says they never budge or change their mind. And honestly they're like that about literally everything.

[wind spade]

I would say I've seen it like 4-5 times, but it may be me misremembering, but yeah, definitely had this conversation before

(not to mention similar story with other topics)

[vapid gorge]

this isn't a once off situation. It's all the time.

[plain rivet]

what, people getting annoyed by greenie's condescension? it does happen all the time

[wind spade]

wait what

this wasn't even about me?

[plain rivet]

good bot

[wind spade]

the whole conversation is about a different user though

[plain rivet]

how many computers do I need?

[wind spade]

for?

[plain rivet]

phase 3

[wind spade]

for what in phase 3?

[thorn bane]

1 manufacturer for personal use should be good enough so 2.5/min

[plain rivet]

ok, so i need 2.5 computers per minute. thanks

[wind spade]

you may need more or less depending on how fast you build and what you actually need them for, hence why I asked

[cerulean stratus]

So, at first I was building factories with a bus, but then I realised this kind of setup can break some thing when you're adding stuff

[wind spade]

bus is generally not recommended in Satisfactory, yeah

[cerulean stratus]

So then I moved on into building whole chains at once

but I just built a 10 flexible frames factory

and I feel like it's not really that easy to expand

[thorn bane]

bus is recommended by me over dedicated factories
its just personal preference

[wind spade]

well with the approach of building whole chains, you don't really expand

you just build new factories and don't touch existing ones

[amber umbra]

Monolithic bus for the entire tech tree isn’t recommended. Small bus for factories is nice.

[thorn bane]

monolithic bus for entire tech tree all the way
https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/553550313533997057/1249769544541802716
its just a different form of building
both work, i just personally think bus is easier and faster to build

[amber umbra]

You can definitely do it, and sticking to a design style is cool. I don’t recommended super large bus bases to people looking for advice personally.

[cerulean stratus]

the problem I was having with bus is that if I'm putting say iron ingots in 2 places, 1 for plates and another for screws
if I build more plates, I now might not have enough for the screws

And I don't think my previous design should break because I'm expanding it

[wind spade]

yeah it doesn't scale well especially with belt limits

and you have to keep in mind all the amounts you have leftover

[cerulean stratus]

in this case the issue is less about belt limits, and more that I want to build on top of what I already have

[thorn bane]

then you just add another iron ingot belt

[cerulean stratus]

So I thought about separating things, but at some point I'm not expanding anymore and just building new chains

[cerulean stratus]

yes, but I think the thing that needed to break first would be the new plates, not the old screws

[amber umbra]

Scalable factory designing is its own challenge, yes.

[thorn bane]

well yeah but once you notice that you can increase ingot production
btw i think a bus with mk1 mk2 belts is kinda bad
imo you need atleast mk3 and it becomes a lot better with better belts

[wind spade]

that's why I generally recommend to build isolated modules and never expand 🙂

[cerulean stratus]

yeah but I want to expand

[thorn bane]

its just very easy to play
expand to the new stuff you just unlocked
chase down bottlenecks until all belts are full again

[wind spade]

it's equal to building new factory

[cerulean stratus]

not always, you save on some belts

you have a proven distribution system, if you're using it for low throughput things like modular frames and rips, you don't worry too much

[amber umbra]

Effort savings with expanding a factory usually comes from upgrading belts as you tech instead of needing to build fresh logistics. But yea, anything can work so do as you like.

[thorn bane]

eh
unlocking modular frames you can reuse your reinforced plates
unlocking heavy modular frames you can reuse your modular frames
same pressure conversion cube
same pasta
same singularity cells

[cerulean stratus]

but I'm also going to admit that expansion doesn't take things like alternate recipes in count

[late orchid]

It totally can

[cerulean stratus]

I mean, if you built things with iron smelters in mind, and now you get iron alloy

[thorn bane]

alternate recipes is one of the strongest points of a bus
you just change the items you pull from the bus and change the recipe, done
compared to completely redesigning old build

[cerulean stratus]

I mean, you can just build up

[late orchid]

You don’t put raw resources on the bus

Except water and nitrogen

[cerulean stratus]

iron ingot isn't raw

[late orchid]

Yeah. The ingots arrive on the bus at the start

You make smelting facilities at ship to the start of the bus line

[amber umbra]

There aren’t rules for bus designs. It’s whatever the player wants to do.

[thorn bane]

nah ingots on the bus
so you can use them for rods/plates/solid steel

[late orchid]

Sharing design principles isn’t making rules.

[amber umbra]

Fair enough. Just crisping up the language.

[thorn bane]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_rXrJ8CWyjNExcayArby3HjRpDUXV5sd8QvFrdNZxBc/edit?tab=t.0
🙃

[late orchid]

But yeah, for my modular bus megafactory, I have various outposts through the world processing raw resources into ingots/ plastic/ rubber ect, which get shipped to the start of the bus via train.

So I can get started with basic iron/ copper/ oil recipes, and upgrade those feeder factories later

[wind spade]

you can't have outposts together with megafactory 😛
"megafactory" by definition is "make everything in single place

[late orchid]

Okay

Seems like a very strict definition. But if that’s the “rule” then alright!

[wind spade]

well that's how people use the term 🤷

[late orchid]

I feel like I’ve seen a lot of “megafactories” that ship in ingots

[cerulean stratus]

some times they just use the term as a "really big factory just for this one thing"

like a "133 GW megafactory"

as in a big power plant

[wind spade]

yeah but that's not a "megafactory" then 🤷

really big factory is really big factory

[dusky dust]

To be fair, that is how a lot of people end up using the word. :)

[late orchid]

So a “megafactory” is only used when describing a player who is building everything from raw ore to end products all in one facility, and having no other outposts except resource extractors in the entire world?

[wind spade]

yeah

basically "all production centralised in one place"

it's opposite of outposting

[late orchid]

But then how do you describe the middle ground

[dusky dust]

cowards

[wind spade]

what is middle ground? if you have at least two factories, you have outpost(s), if you have one factory, you have megafactory

[late orchid]

Because then the other side is “everything that isn’t a megafactory is out posting”

[wind spade]

isn't it?

[cerulean stratus]

Yeah I've seen AIs with more contextual flexibility than Greeny

[dusky dust]

If we're being descriptivist with language, I do think that it's probably more common that people just mean "a really big factory" when they say "megafactory." It's a term whose intended definition is likely to vary by context

[cerulean stratus]

Greeny the kind of guy who would buy 12 packs of milk because they had eggs

[wind spade]

ok and?

no idea why this goes to personal insults, but be warned that it's kinda against #rules

[wind spade]

it's more common for people to call power storages "batteries" 🤷

[dusky dust]

Heh, agreed. :D

[wind spade]

(not to mention all the youtubers that call stacked belts "a bus")

[cerulean stratus]

It's because we know what we mean even if we're not saying "the right way"
But you also know what we mean even if we're not saying it "the right way"
But you go out of your way to be pedantic some times

[wind spade]

the person above me quite clearly didn't know, hence why I explained it to them

[cerulean stratus]

but you're right, I'm sorry for insulting you

[thorn bane]

@dusky dust @unkempt oar
43750MW with uranium->plutonium->ficsonium
most notable 417 sam and 240 bauxite and the obvious 83 uranium
then a bunch of small things like limestone/copper/coal/quartz
43750MW with rocketfuel
301 crude oil 292 nitrogen
its actually more nitrogen than nuclear (292vs136) i remembered wrong
if you look at it in weighted resources its 15% vs 6% for nuclear vs fuel gens which is insane
the sam and bauxite alone are insane
like compare 417 sam and 240 bauxite to 300 oil, its crazy
not even factoring in the 83 uranium which is actually a lot since its hard to get to (freaking caves man)
like id rather get 300 oil than 83 uranium since the oil fields are usually huge
i guess the nitrogen can be painful but the extra 156 isnt too hard to get
definetly not as much as getting 417 sam

[wind spade]

all good, just... sometimes some people go way beyond reasonable and action has to be taken 🤷 (not your case)

[cerulean stratus]

yeah ficsonium needs a buff

as it stands it's just for removing plutonuim waste

[wind spade]

it's still power positive, I think it's fine

[dusky dust]

That's.... exactly what its purpose is, though

[wind spade]

it's a choice for the person - do you want waste-free plutonium? it's expensive, but possible

it isn't there to be a competitive power source

[cerulean stratus]

it makes it not worth it to run plutonium and it's easier to just sink it instead

[wind spade]

for you maybe, for others it may be different 🤷

[thorn bane]

dont think the most expensive and complex chain of power generation should use 2.5x the resources per mw of rocket fuel

[dusky dust]

Not sure how you get "not worth it to run plutonium." If you insist on clean nuclear, it lets you burn Plutonium+Ficsonium for about 3x the power that Uranium alone gives you

And there's no reason not to run Plutonium without Ficsonium

If you don't want to accumulate waste, then you can add Ficsonium on top

[wind spade]

also I like how people say that it needs rebalance when we have those sloop power sources which are so insanely OP

[dusky dust]

Again: comparing Rocket Fuel to Uranium->Plutonium->Ficsonium is absurd

Rocket Fuel's competitor is Uranium

Plutonium and Ficsonium are extra things you can put on top if you want

[thorn bane]

i think using them is an abosulte waste
using sloops to boost production is way better imo

[dusky dust]

Also, in terms of Bauxite -- as I say, on my Ficsonium-enabled playthrough, I was only using like 25% of the map's Bauxite. There's plenty to go around. It is very SAM heavy, yes, but if you're not doing resource conversion then that hardly matters either

I've never claimed that Uranium->Plutonium->Ficsonium wasn't more resource-heavy than Rocket Fuel

[wind spade]

well that's personal preference, in both cases you're just increasing amount of practically infinite resource while reducing amount of things you need to build

[dusky dust]

But Uranium is entirely reasonable in comparison

[wind spade]

doesn't change that it's insanely OP

[quick gorge]

Funny y'all talking about this because I'm slowly designing my power plant

[thorn bane]

ey man i did ficsonium just because i like making complex recipes, damned the efficiency

[quick gorge]

That is exactly why I am doing it.
I mean also wanting to make a good looking factory that isn't just a big box for the 500th time

224 plut waste, slooping the SAM to get every drop of ficsonium.

[thorn bane]

yooo also tier 9 stuff is just coooool
i love the dark matter residue reprocessing
i wish it was just a bit harder but its still cool

[quick gorge]

I do wish it was a big harder too
like maybe mixing uran and plut waste to make the ikea lamp so you have to balance their insertion

[thorn bane]

oh yes
also aluminum byproduct seems harder that DMR byproduct since its easier to turn solid and sink for DMR
what if the crystals was a fluid as well, like crystalized dark matter
that way you couldnt just sink it

[quick gorge]

With what I have planned here I'll have 163.33 reanimated SAM left over/m

Oh no I actually have to find all the sloops I have in all of my machines across my world and account for them all 💀

[thorn bane]

synthetic summer sloop when

[quick gorge]

As an avid https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/1283457093696749609 enjoyer.
That might result in inverting the universe (or something)

[thorn bane]

harness the energy
become void

[quick gorge]

I said do NOT loop the loop-organ!

Anyways.
So I'mma loop the loop-organ

With the left over SAM from slooping it to get enough for all the Ficsonium I'll be putting it into feeding 8 APA

[hushed silo]

only 44k power?
rookie numbers

[thorn bane]

eh its just what fit the numbers for all the 3 rods

[hushed silo]

well

it doesnt realy matter how u look at it

if u need reasonable ammount rocket is go to
for unreasonable uranium

amd never ever build all of gens in one place

[quick gorge]

The only reason I'm doing Ficsonium is so I can make an IKEA show room in the transport from Ficsonium to their fuel rods

[thorn bane]

wait why?

[dusky dust]

Not sure where you're getting definitions for "reasonable" and "unreasonable." Rocket Fuel or Uranium-powered power plants are about as easy to make the same amount of power

And yeah, no real problem with keeping all your gens for a power plant in one location. If you mean that it might be worth having totally separate power generation areas in case you screw up a build on one, then that might be nice for some isolation, I suppose

[rigid pewter]

i want to turn all 2100 uranium in map to fuel rods and im in phase 4 do i turn the waste into plutonium fuel rods and use them too or do i sink them ?

[dusky dust]

Depends if you want to have a "clean" nuclear system or not -- entirely up to you!

[thorn bane]

depends on if youre ok with having waste
if not then sink plutonium rods

[rigid pewter]

i havent done anything with radiation and since im in phase 4 i dont know how can i deal with plutonium waste

[dusky dust]

Keep in mind that maxing out on Uranium is a very big project; possibly bigger than you think it is. :)

[dusky dust]

For Plutonium waste, you either just store it forever, or process it into Ficsonium (which lets you have a "clean" nuclear solution)

[rigid pewter]

ive done all the aluminum before i think i can handle this as well

[dusky dust]

Plutonium waste accumulates pretty slowly, though -- you just calculate how much time a single ISC will give you, then build out however many hours of storage you need

Can always hook it up to Ficsonium processing later if you want

[rigid pewter]

how is the damage like is it safe to store them ?

[dusky dust]

(Though I suspect there's not enough SAM on the map to turn all your Plutonium waste into Ficsonium rods, if you're maxing out all Uranium nodes.)

[quick gorge]

You can if you sloop some of the animating

[thorn bane]

automating filters in the dimenstion depot makes it a pretty non issue

[dusky dust]

Iodine Filter usage maxes out at 5/min. So long as you're sending at least 5/min into your Depot, you can spend literally the rest of the game holding radioactive material and never take damage (so long as you remember to keep pulling filters from the Depot periodically)

[rigid pewter]

thats so smart i never knew i could even do that

i just use my depot for building stuff

[dusky dust]

Your hazmat suit won't automatically take filters from the cloud storage, so you do have to periodically grab 'em yourself, but yeah

Can also use it to replenish ammo, jetpack fuel, etc. (Again: need to take those out "manually," but at least then they can refill)

[rigid pewter]

ok i will do that i thought the depot is only forresources

[quick gorge]

Actual feature request >:(

[dusky dust]

Once you have the manual upload unlocked you can also use it to relieve your inventory while on long exploration expeditions. Shove a bunch of stacks of remains, slugs, etc, in there

[rigid pewter]

slugs ? wait i can store anything in depot ?

[dusky dust]

Yep, if it can be in your inventory it can go in the depot

[rigid pewter]

ok i feel dumb now XD

[rigid pewter]

ok so to turn all my waste into ficsocium i will need 4.15k sam

i have no idea how much sam is in map

[quick gorge]

There is enough 👀

[dusky dust]

Yeah, there's about 10k on the map

And you can stretch it further by slooping the Reanimated SAM constructors

[quick gorge]

10200

[rigid pewter]

is there a tool that i can use to see how much power is it going to make

[oak basin]

How can i calculate how much Coal Generators i can run on an MK2 Miner Overcloced to 200% so it the Output is 480 Coal a min

[dusky dust]

How much coal does a single coal gen consume per minute?

[rigid pewter]

each coal generator uses 15pm

[dusky dust]

(You can tell by clicking on the orange button on the input buffer on a coal gen -- it'll tell you the rates of consumption)

[rigid pewter]

you can use 32 generators

[oak basin]

So i can go with the Base Math "Coal generator = Coal mining rate / 15"

[rigid pewter]

yes coal generators = coal / coal consumed per generator

[outer vale]

same as all other resource usage
buildings = items / items per building

[restive sparrow]

I'm totally starting to grasp the idea of breaking build plans into groups for easier implementation. My rubber/plastic/coke plan I'm building now I'm doing out the math and everyone consuming water is consuming it in batches around 400. It will be so much easier to make pipes carrying 400 water by underclocking extractors to 100/min than it would be pulling pipes of 600 and dividing it around.

[oblique hollow]

Yeah its always easier to do that

And a lot more reasonable to handle

[restive sparrow]

This will be my first build of truly large scale so I've not had to do a lot of planning based on pipe/belt capacity and input/output blocking.

Could be done with fewer extractors, sure, but would be waaaay harder to get it running well. Even if not trying to use a full 600, blocks of 480 or something would just make for weird assed splitting that would almost assuredly cause sloshing and fluid bullshittery.

[oblique hollow]

slosh is normal to an extent.
Pipes below the flow limit tend to do that and its fine! Its natural

The problem is working near the limit

There it and other things can be very bothersome

[restive sparrow]

This block planning seems to be quite useful but a bit tedious. Are there any build planners that facilitate the process of grouping machines' inputs and outputs?

[cerulean stratus]

blueprints?

with manifolds

[restive sparrow]

I'm referring to mathematical planning. Like STools, but with the ability to divide up any one particular block into a number of smaller subblocks for planning out belts and pipes.

[cerulean stratus]

check out satisfactory modeler on steam then

[restive sparrow]

Will do. I've seen screenshots that look similar to STools output. Are you able to divide up those blocks?

[cerulean stratus]

I don't know if it's exactly the way you're expecting, but give it a try

it's more of a ground up approach

while STools is top down

[restive sparrow]

My biggest beef with the screenshots is how everything is pictures. Maybe I'll get used to it but a lot of buildings aren't super distinct from a tiny thumbnail. I'll give it a whirl and see how it feels.

[amber umbra]

There’s always the multiple SF Tools pages with pen paper managing.

[restive sparrow]

This is exactly what I'm already doing that I was asking if there are any tools to help with the process lol

[civic bronze]

Yeah in modeler everything is very manual - which is good or bad for different people - you can "divide blocks" as you said

Personally i like using both - modeler is good "factory notepad" while sftools is "initial planner"

[dusky dust]

I just wish that modeller's graphs were at all legible to anyone who didn't make them

[civic bronze]

They really can be, there are 3 different connect modes - it dont have to look like a pasta bowl - but yeah its very manual and some dont bother

[dusky dust]

It's not the connection lines that bother me, it's the fact that absolutely nothing's labelled.

There's no way to tell what recipe anything is unless you're already intimiately familiar with the inputs+outputs (and in one case, the actual ratios of the specific ingredients), you've gotta decipher tiny icons to know whether, for instance, this thing over here is coal or compacted coal, or whatever the hell SE part this icon is -- Is this building a Foundry or an Assembler, etc?

use your effing words, modeller.

Someone who made the chain can glance at it and go "oh, okay, using Caterium Wire over here" but for anyone else trying to interpret it, every single step requires active cognition to even know what's going on

Zoom in, try to remember what the icons are like, try to match that to a recipe.

[civic bronze]

Oh i guess, yeah its no problem to zoom on your plan - can't say the same for screenshots

[dusky dust]

bleh

[wind spade]

SFTools are more of a calculator, give you raw numbers
modeller is more of a logistical planner, but kinda sucks at the computation

so it's up to you how you use the two 🙂

[dusky dust]

Right, except that 100% of the interaction with Modeller in this Discord is people posting an utter jumble of lines + icons which requires way more effort to get even a general handle on than I'm typically willing to spend

If it just labelled things I would hate it about 99% less. :)

I acknowledge that it's probably a super useful tool for the folks who are using it at the time, but as an information-sharing vector it's utter garbage at the moment

[cerulean stratus]

honestly seeing how new it is it's pretty good

[wind spade]

I must go back to making new tools so that I can make tools' own version of modeller-like thing

[cerulean stratus]

i think greeny's sf tools is still amazing. But it's just missing the ability to split a node

[dusky dust]

(sftools does not even show nodes (which honestly is a good thing for a solver, IMO)) (disregard, whoops)

[wind spade]

I think they mean graph nodes, not SF nodes

[dusky dust]

Oh oh

[cerulean stratus]

yeah, graph nodes

[dusky dust]

:homerbackingintothehedge:

[cerulean stratus]

but it's offset by just making the split in another tab

[wind spade]

honestly the main problem of this is the technical debt and bad decision of how to do things (one of the main reasons I'm doing the rewrite)

basically the result is always computed, so it can't really be edited in any way (which I want to change in new Tools)

[cerulean stratus]

how's that new tools coming along?

[wind spade]

last few months I've been dealing with serious personal issues so not well. Hoping to get back to them soon-ish

[cerulean stratus]

understandable, personal issues take priority

[civic bronze]

big thing i like in modeler are the outposts you can make there, if you are making dedicated factory of some item, you can connect the output into couple other outposts - factories that uses this item and it shows you how much is being used

Without going back and forth between plans everytime and counting it

[opal hill]

are the rolls and rerolls on the hard drives predetermined or are they rolled when we click the buttons to "open" them?

[cerulean stratus]

the first roll is determined when you pick up the hdd

the reroll is not

[opal hill]

oh damn

can i get the heavy oil residue recipe when im not at phase 2 yet?

[cerulean stratus]

no

if you run out of recipes to scan it won't let you scan

[civic bronze]

While im aware the play-style to "overproduce for future" is not ideal, i do feel like its sometimes needed
For example making HMF from scratch for every factory would be really time consuming and kind of a pain in the arse
So instead i did it dedicated and in bigger volume to drone for different factories and tbh it turned out as a good decision for me
But yeah this comes from someone not beating the game yet, take it as you will

[opal hill]

hmm... i have like 10 scanned hard drives (with rerolls still up) that i kind wanna keep to get heavy oil residue when i get there since i dont feel like most of the early recipes are that worth it (apart from like cast screws lol) since i'm basically at phase 2

would have to completely rebuild my entire stuff with those new recipes

[cerulean stratus]

people talk about don't overproduce, thing is, turbo motors still require making a gigantic supply chain

[cerulean stratus]

there's a lot of good recipes
iron wire and stitched plates, iron alloy, solid steel,

[opal hill]

solid steel is the one i was fishing for yep. that one is super nice

[cerulean stratus]

iron alloy is such a favorite of mine

so much iron

[wind spade]

all recipes are worth it in some situations

[cerulean stratus]

got early concrete problems? cheap concrete!

[opal hill]

yeah true! but i have all the blueprints ready in a stackable way (building skyscrapers) so if i would change the recipe i would have to change the entire blueprints as well 😅

[cerulean stratus]

I don't think that's the right way to look at it

[opal hill]

i sourced all the lime stone in the entire desert and im making 4320 concrete atm 😅

[cerulean stratus]

Why not just using the new recipe somewhere else

[opal hill]

oh yeah.
that for sure! but i feel like the most important thing rn is to keep the hard drives for heavy oil residue and diluted packaged fuel

cause thats the very next thing i will make

[cerulean stratus]

btw, I made a blueprint that takes in water and hor, and makes power with it

with 2 fuel gens, 1 refinery, and 2 packagers, even the cannisters are included

[opal hill]

thats nice!

why no turbofuel? 😛

[cerulean stratus]

it wasn't in a good spot for it

someone already took that place... and used it to make computers

[opal hill]

im still not sure if i should go for turbofuel or not...
HOR -> packaged diluted fuel -> turbofuel?

[cerulean stratus]

and I was in a spot with oil and water, and I just thought diluted was good enough

[cerulean stratus]

I'd say yes, because from turbo you can go rocket fuel

and rocket fuel is great. You want it for jetpack (although you can also get ionized instantly once you get rocket)
But you can also make loads of power with it, without radiation or waste that's hard to deal with

[dusky dust]

My 1.0 save has three separate HMF production areas. :)

[cerulean stratus]

I was trying to make the rubber hmf, 10 per min, I had almost all parts done except 1

[dusky dust]

I admit that for Phase 4+5 I did use the wiki to pre-plan a lot of resource requirements, so for instance I only have a single Supercomputer factory with three outputs (one to storage, one to ADS, and another to NQP)

But for that I knew exactly how much I needed for each export and only built that much out

[cerulean stratus]

and then I realized, the last one was modular frames. I needed 50 modular frames per minute

Me spending 2 hours making a blueprint for that thing

[glad vigil]

Can a modular frame recipe fit into mk2 blueprint?

[cerulean stratus]

yes

[glad vigil]

Pretty sure it can

[cerulean stratus]

I have one

[glad vigil]

I was able to fit crystal oscillators and diluted packaged fuel there

[cerulean stratus]

Foundry into 2 constructors making 1 stitched plates into 3 assemblers with the pipes

ah wait, the constructor for pipes was outside

[glad vigil]

Pipes

For modular frames?

U doing steeled frame or what

[cerulean stratus]

yes

it was less machines

[glad vigil]

Is Iron pipe steel rotor motor viable

[cerulean stratus]

it's good for motors

[glad vigil]

I mean it’s not as efficient as default

[cerulean stratus]

because stator and rotor use the exact same ingredients

[glad vigil]

But very easy to setup since you only need 2 constructors

[cerulean stratus]

just put them in the same manifold

[dusky dust]

Literally every motor production chain is viable, in that you get motors at the end. :)

[cerulean stratus]

I've also heard speedrunners use rigor motor

[dusky dust]

Keep in mind that there's a lot more resources on the map than you probably realize. We all obsess over resource efficiency (especially in this channel) but you really have to try hard to exhaust resources in this game. Whatever you choose will be fine

[cerulean stratus]

yes, the one with the oscilators

[cerulean stratus]

it depends a bit on how you play
You want to play close because that means less time spent commuting, but you also want to play in areas where multiple kinds of resources are close by